From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 10:24:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81EOBV5002083 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:24:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81EN5dD016192 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:23:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81EN3Nh015387; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:23:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81EN1Nh015358 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:23:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.119] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id A589E97F00B4; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 10:19:53 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c37095$1e20a600$775183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c36fb5$db9848e0$be520940@WorkingGirl> Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: cotton mills of New England Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:27:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am a bit late on this topic, but would like to respond to Charlene with some titles that may pertain to her query: Amoskeag;Hareven and Langenbach;Pantheon, 1978 Women at Work;Dublin; Columbia U Press,1946, revised 1983 Textiles in New England:;Boston University,1999. Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Baird " To: Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 7:48 AM Subject: [h-cost] RE: cotton mills of New England > Charlene, I suggest that you try the American Textile History Museum > 491 Dutton Street Lowell, MA 01854 Tel: 978-441-0400. Currently > they do not have an e-mail address! At least not one that I could find. > Good luck , Margaret Baird > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 11:05:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81F54V5002227 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:05:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81F4PdD018029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:04:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81F4ORt029787; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:04:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81F4KRt029762 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:04:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id h81F4hf24232.; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:04:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 16:04:18 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.0 Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 16:03:37 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually Montaigne died in 1592 so the translation you quote postdates his life. I wonder what the translator meant by "spangolized"? Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com 08/30/03 05:22pm >>> I suppose most of you have seen the extant iron corset (16th or 17th c? I'm getting old my memory is going!) and read the speculation as to whether it might have been an orthopedic devise and not an everyday corset. Well, I've just come across a quote from Montaigne's Essays - 1603 mentioning "yron-plates" (not corsets though) to slender the waist. "I have seen them swallow gravell, ashes, coales, dust, tallow, candles, and for the nonce, labour and toyle themselves to spoil their stomache, only to get a pal-bleake colour. To become slender in wast, and to have a straight spangolized body, what pinching, what girding, what cingling will they no indure; yea someimtes with yron-plates, with whale-bones and other such trash..." The gravel, ashes, coals eating sounds like Pica. Lisa Sinervo Thrednedle Strete Clothiers www.ThrednedleStrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information on a proactive email security service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 11:35:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81FZsV5002314 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:35:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81FO3dD018910 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:24:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81FO2Rt007030; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:24:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81FNrRu006934 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:23:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dandy.net (acty1017.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.242.17]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h81FPPKe015348 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:25:26 -0400 Message-ID: <3F536310.108@dandy.net> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:17:36 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets References: <000a01c36f12$dfa91340$620a77d8@pavilion> <001301c36f16$2f387a60$620a77d8@pavilion> <006001c36f72$c47f2e50$88ceadcb@michaela> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, All. On the subject of Pare', my favorite surgeon, I would like to note that in my facsimile of the 1634 English translation, Pare' says this about corsets Book 23 Chap 8 "Of amending the deformity of such as are crookedbacked" "The bodies of many, especially young maids or girles (by reason that they are more moist and tender than the bodies of boyes) are made crooked in process of time, especially by the wrenching aside and crookednesse of the backe-bone. It hath many causes, that is to say, in the first conformation in the wombe, and afterwards by misfortune, as a fall, bruise or any such like accident, but especially by the unhandsome and undecent situation of their bodies, when they are young and tender, either in carrying, sitting or standing (and especially when they are taught to goe too soone) saluting, sewing, writing, or in doing any such like thing. In the meane while, that I may not omit the occasion of crookednesse, that happens seldome to the country people, but is much in incident to the inhabitants of great townes and cities, which is by reason of the straitnesse and narrownesse of their garments that are worne by them, which is occasioned by the folly of mothers, who while they covet to have their young daughters bodies so small in the middle as may be possible, plucke and draw their bones awry, and make them crooked. For the ligaments of the back-bone being very tender, soft and moist at that age, cannot stay it strait, and strongly, but being pliant, easily permits the spondels to slippe awry inwards, outwards or sidewise, as they are thrust and forced. The remedy for this deformity is to have breast-plates of iron, full of holes all over them, wherby they may be lighter to wear, and they must be so lined with bombast, that they may hurt no place of the body. Every three moneths new plates must be made for those that are not yet arrived at their full growth, for otherwise by the daily afflux of more matter, they would become worse. But the plates will do them small good that are already at their full growth" So we can see that Pare' is advocating corrective orthopaedic work for the young, who are "crooked" due to congenital or environmental difficulties. He illustrates "The forme of an iron Breast-plate, to amend the crookednesse of the Body". It appears less like a corset or pair of bodies than a pattern for a womans breast plate worn by modern SCA women fighters, but full of holes. I can jpeg a picture to anyone who would like to post it, but it should be noted that Pare's device is not the same as those other "metal corsets", and more like modern orthopaedic devices. It should not be used as "proof" that metal corsets were being used for correction, especially in adults. Particularly in the last sentence, he sees little use in correcting the body once the damage has been done. Cheers, Mike T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 11:53:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81FrwV5002375 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:53:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81FgFdD019814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:42:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81FgERt013833; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:42:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81FgBRt013811 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:42:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-004-039.jps.net ([216.119.4.39] helo=pavilion) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19tqok-0006wn-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 08:42:10 -0700 Message-ID: <001201c3709f$e5018960$270477d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:44:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO looks like 1603 was the date of Florio's Translation of Montaige's essays from 1580-1592. I'm going to keep an eye out for "spangolized" - not sure what that means. Although looking at the original work would probably be more useful. If I happen to stumble across this I'll let you know. Lisa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets > Actually Montaigne died in 1592 so the translation you quote postdates > his life. I wonder what the translator meant by "spangolized"? > > Kate Bunting > Library, University of Derby > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 12:40:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81GevV5002548 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:40:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81GSndD021665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:28:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81GSmNT002096; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:28:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.istop.com (dci.doncaster.on.ca [66.11.168.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81GSjNT002073 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:28:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eggnog (skud.ott.istop.com [66.11.173.11]) by smtp.istop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A952936952 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from skud by eggnog with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19trX4-0007jK-00 for ; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:27:58 -0400 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets In-Reply-To: <001201c3709f$e5018960$270477d8@pavilion> References: <001201c3709f$e5018960$270477d8@pavilion> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:27:58 -0400 Message-Id: From: Kirrily Robert X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lisa: > looks like 1603 was the date of Florio's Translation of Montaige's essays > from 1580-1592. I'm going to keep an eye out for "spangolized" - not sure > what that means. Although looking at the original work would probably be > more useful. If I happen to stumble across this I'll let you know. I would guess that "spangolized" means something to do with Spain. Like, "made in the Spanish style". Just a guess based on what I know of Elizabethan period mis-spellings of terms related to Spain :) K. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 12:51:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81GpjV5002576 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:51:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81GpCdD022779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:51:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81GpBNT011471; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:51:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81Gp9NT011462 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:51:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-6-150.dav.jps.net ([216.119.6.150] helo=pavilion) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19trtU-0005MX-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 09:51:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c370a9$89c9e600$960677d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 09:53:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Fabrics.net X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h81GpjV5002576 Status: RO I've just run across this site http://www.fabrics.net/ which might be helpful. It has a feature where you can post a fabric you are looking for and stores can contact you if they carry it. Lisa Sinervo www.thrednedlestrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 13:09:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81H99V5002620 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:09:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81H8VdD023811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:08:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81H8UPo019451; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:08:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.surewest.net (smtp2.surewest.net [208.45.228.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h81H8QPo019399 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:08:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 28799 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2003 17:08:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gateway) (216.93.213.159) by smtp2.surewest.net with SMTP; 1 Sep 2003 17:08:20 -0000 Message-ID: <000c01c370ab$a31903f0$0300a8c0@gateway> From: "Joan Broneske" To: "H-Costume" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:08:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-TST: smtp2 SNWK Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Source for Muslin X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h81H99V5002620 Status: RO Does anyone know a really *cheap* source for muslin, either online or offline? Thanks. ,%%%, --==% `%%%, |' )`%%, \_/\ @%%, __@@" %%%--"""-.%, /`__| \%% \\ \ / | /'%, \] | /----'. < `%, Joan Broneske || `>> > unicorn@surewest.net || ///` /( //( _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 13:42:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81Hg4V5002678 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:42:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HfQdD025507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:41:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HfOPo004501; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:41:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (cardassian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.45.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HfLPo004424 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:41:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A79CBEEB0 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:13:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F537F28.80808@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:17:28 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: H-Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] More pictures of my new 16ct dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Yes, I have done all the lacingholes in the back. I finally could fit the gown over my corset and it is a little to big! There is some wrinkeling at the front of the bodice. But I don't mind, untill now my bodices were alway's too small. If it is hot I will be able to loosen up my corset. http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 13:44:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HiQV5002682 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:44:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HhndD025600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:43:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HhnPo005491; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:43:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.primushost.com (smtp3.primushost.com [209.58.220.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HhjPp005426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:43:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell3.shore.net [207.244.124.103] by smtp3.primushost.com with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim) id 19tsi4-0005SB-U3; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 13:43:24 -0400 Received: from vintage by shell3.shore.net with local (Exim) for id 19tsiy-00027u-00; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 13:44:20 -0400 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:44:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Katy Bishop To: Joan Broneske Subject: Re: [h-cost] Source for Muslin In-Reply-To: <000c01c370ab$a31903f0$0300a8c0@gateway> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: H-Costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO New England Quilt supply, a wholesale quilt supply shop in southeastern MA. 781-293-7600 158 Center St Pembroke, MA 02359 http://www.newenglandquiltsupply.com/ They have a "house muslin", their cheapest, that is over $1 a yard, but not more than $1.50 last time I got it, and they carry many other white and colored muslins. They have a website and photocopied catalogue. You have to buy by the bolt or for a couple of dollars you can purchase only half a bolt. They also have a nice 200 count 90' wide cotton sheeting that I love (approx $3 a yard) Katy On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Joan Broneske wrote: >Does anyone know a really *cheap* source for muslin, either online or offline? Thanks. > > > ,%%%, > --==% `%%%, > |' )`%%, > \_/\ @%%, > __@@" %%%--"""-.%, > /`__| \%% > \\ \ / | /'%, > \] | /----'. < `%, >Joan Broneske || `>> > unicorn@surewest.net > || ///` > /( //( >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 13:57:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HvTV5002827 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:57:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HupdD026174 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:56:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81HupPW010676; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:56:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9406.mail.yahoo.com (web9406.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h81HulPW010657 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:56:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030901175647.11580.qmail@web9406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 10:56:47 PDT Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:56:47 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] More pictures of my new 16ct dress To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F537F28.80808@kabelfoon.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Coming along very nicely ,Deredere!! Albra Deredere Galbraith wrote: Hi, Yes, I have done all the lacingholes in the back. I finally could fit the gown over my corset and it is a little to big! There is some wrinkeling at the front of the bodice. But I don't mind, untill now my bodices were alway's too small. If it is hot I will be able to loosen up my corset. http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 14:13:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81ID5V5002878 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:13:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81ICCdD026943 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:12:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81ICAPW017043; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:12:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.180]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h81IC8PW017026 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:12:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-121-115-109.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@67.121.115.109 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2003 18:12:08 -0000 Message-ID: <010c01c370b4$8869b8c0$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c36fdf$ddf13af0$0201a8c0@kimathlon> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1885 dress pattern? Books? Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:11:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO You should check out Truly Victorian patterns (www.trulyvictorian.com) for TONS of bustle-era patterns that work out really well. You can read reviews of their patterns on the GBACG Great Pattern Review: http://www.gbacg.org/Patterns/tv.htm - Kendra http://demode.tweedlebop.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 14:46:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81Ik2V5003235 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:46:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81IjCdD028409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:45:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81Ij8PW001102; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:45:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jabberwock.wonderland.com (jabberwock.wonderland.com [205.179.178.102]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81Ij2PW001027 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 12:45:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from wonderland.com (adsl-63-202-187-77.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.187.77]) by jabberwock.wonderland.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3F72F91F for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:44:59 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Source for Muslin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Heather Meadows To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <63AA8FE8-DCAC-11D7-A9F6-00039369A97A@wonderland.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The cheapest way to buy muslin I have found is to buy it at Joanns (it's the ONLY thing I buy there) using a 50% off coupon. It comes out to about 40 cents a yard, I think. I buy the whole bolt, shrinkwrapped, so they won't try to measure it for me. .heather. On Monday, September 1, 2003, at 10:44 AM, Katy Bishop wrote: > > New England Quilt supply, a wholesale quilt supply shop in southeastern > MA. > 781-293-7600 > 158 Center St > Pembroke, MA 02359 > http://www.newenglandquiltsupply.com/ > > They have a "house muslin", their cheapest, that is over $1 a yard, but > not more than $1.50 last time I got it, and they carry many other white > and colored muslins. They have a website and photocopied catalogue. > You have to buy by the bolt or for a couple of dollars you can purchase > only half a bolt. They also have a nice 200 count 90' wide cotton > sheeting that I love (approx $3 a yard) > > Katy > > On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Joan Broneske wrote: > >> Does anyone know a really *cheap* source for muslin, either online or >> offline? Thanks. >> >> >> ,%%%, >> --==% `%%%, >> |' )`%%, >> \_/\ @%%, >> __@@" %%%--"""-.%, >> /`__| \%% >> \\ \ / | /'%, >> \] | /----'. < `%, >> Joan Broneske || `>> > unicorn@surewest.net >> || ///` >> /( //( >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> > > Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian > vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com > Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. > Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 15:14:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81JEPV5003740 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:14:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81JDldD029688 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:13:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81JDkru017115; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:13:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81JDhru017054 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:13:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (bb136.cvip.net [129.8.204.136]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKJ00CQ0UQQ4B@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:14:14 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1885 dress pattern? Books? In-reply-to: <3F51C553.7080205@kabelfoon.nl> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030901105909.00afd688@127.0.0.1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Antivirus: avast!, Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 11:52 AM 8/31/2003 +0200, you wrote: > Hi, > >I was looking at some websites for patterns for a 1885 dress but I can >only find seperate patterns, like a bodice pattern, skirt pattern..... >And if I calculate the price for a complete dress it will cost about $90. >Are there any books with patterns for dresses? >At least someting less expensive than buying al those seperate patterns. >I have Janet Arnolds patterns of fashion but find the patterns difficult >to understand. Hi Deredere, Have you looked at _Period Costume for Stage & Screen: Patterns for Women's Dress, 1800-1909_ by Jean Hunnisett? The book is wonderful (imho) and covers patterns for making the undergarments to the outer clothing. She shows the different forms of the bustle, and describes how to make them up. She is a theatrical designer, but she includes historical overviews and fashion plates. While she doesn't list anything specifically for 1885, She does show bustles, pads, petticoats, bodices and skirts from 1886-87. You should be able to work out your design from her info. Amazon.com carries the book, but Alter Years or Lacis would have them in immediate stock I think. I paid $40 for the book several years ago, but the price on Amazon shows it at $55, so ypmv. hth, Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 15:14:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81JEaV5003747 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:14:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81JDwdD029717 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:13:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81JDwru017197; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:13:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81JDhrw017054 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:13:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (bb136.cvip.net [129.8.204.136]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKJ00CQ0UQQ4B@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 12:00:05 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] More pictures of my new 16ct dress In-reply-to: <3F537F28.80808@kabelfoon.nl> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030901114057.00b10e38@127.0.0.1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Antivirus: avast!, Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 07:17 PM 9/1/2003 +0200, you wrote: >There is some wrinkeling at the front of the bodice. >But I don't mind, untill now my bodices were alway's too small. Hi Deredere, I love how the dress is coming along. It looks wonderful, and I love how you did the lacing up the side back. I also like the height of the front of the dress. Some people may wonder why your bosom ISN'T showing like two ripe melons on a platter, but I like it. I also like what you are doing for the headpiece. To be honest, that wrinkling in the front is bothering me. I know how that can go as my first nobles dress came out wrinkled in a similar manner, and I didn't care because it was done and I could wear it. But as I did, I got some snickers and "oh, dear" looks from other people that have made me realize that I need to adjust my bodice into fitting better, which I will do if I ever get back into that size (which I am working on). To help you from getting that "oh, dear" look, I hope I can provide a little constructive criticism, if you don't mind. I would rather your hard work pay off in a "Oh, WOW" look from envious people, like me. It looks like the wrinkling is really prominent at the lower bodice, which makes me think it isn't a matter so much of how big around it is, but maybe how long the bodice front is. It looks to be at or near your armpits, at the top, so I wonder is it comfortable there or is it digging in? Do you feel you have to tug it into place or is it sitting in place? Are you willing to redo the bodice to shorten it a bit at the front, because it looks like the side seams are the right length, at least from the back. Do you have boning down the front? Is your corset as long as the bodice? Maybe that is where the wrinkling at the lower bodice is coming from. And if the bodice is fitting you a little big, then why the stress wrinkles across the back? Is that back interlined any? Is it pulling forward or how does it feel to you? I am not sure what may be causing the wrinkles back there, except it may be a bit small in the back or something I am not understanding. I hope that helps you. I really love that you are doing this dress, and can't wait to see it all come together for you. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 17:05:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81L5mV5005648 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:05:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81L5CdD004799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:05:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81L5Awn005509; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:05:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81L57wn005500 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:05:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19tvrF-000Aeu-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 22:05:05 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:21:04 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid? References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I was reading about this recently (and I'm sure others will correct my details, since cloth manufacture is certainly not my speciality). In Saxon/Viking times, you get lots of stripes and checks, they're using worsted yarn, and very little fulling. By about 1200, they're using woollen yarn (carded not combed, with more short fluffy fibres), dyed in the piece instead of in the skein, and heavily fulled and clipped. Those processes would blur woven patterns, so fabrics are more likely to be plain. You can't identify cause and effect, but the fabric type and the pattern (or plain) seem to go together. Since well-fulled, piece-dyed fabrics were considered better quality, you can see how stripes and checks would not be favoured by the upper classes. I don't know how long that preference lasted, however. Jean Wanda Pease wrote >I was just going through pictures taken in Pisa about 15 years ago. There >are a series of scenes painted in the 1400's showing the results of the >black death. In one scene is a man lying on his back with his soul (baby) >coming out of his mouth. He is wearing a cream and shades of brown plaid, >not check, long outfit (gown). This is definitely not a check, nor is it >fur. I think I can scan it in if necessary. Also, in the upper left >section of the set of paintings by Lorenzetti, Ambrogio (Italian, approx. >1285-1348) scenes from the Life of St. Nicholas, you will see a man who >looks as though he has a plaid gown with a "Robin Hood" hat on (the >remastered cut of the Errol Flynn Robin Hood is presently playing here in >Portland and the influence is leaking into my computer :-) > >There isn't any "secret" to weaving plaid (as we presently call the fabric >in the US). It doesn't seem to have been particularly popular in clothing >for aristocrats. > >Regina Romsey > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On >> Behalf Of Robin Netherton >> Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 4:14 PM >> To: Historical Costume >> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid? >> >> >> >> On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Nancy Kiel wrote: >> >> > In Rogier van der Weyden's Crucifixtion in a Church, c 1445, center of >> > Altar of the Seven Sacraments, the woman behind the cross appears to >> > have a "plaid" lining to her over-dress. (The plaid is very open, so >> > could be considered a check?) Has anyone seen anything similar in >> > other paintings? I always associate plaids with Scotland, of course. >> >> I don't know if you're looking at an online version (which is likely to be >> misleading) but if you can get your hands on a very good print, you'll see >> that the lining is fur, and the squarish design comes from the pattern of >> the pelts that make up the fur. This is a pretty standard way of depicting >> certain furs made up of rows of two-toned small pelts, and it's not the >> first time I've heard someone say the pattern looked like plaid or checks, >> especially in an online version or a poor reproduction. >> >> In the right wing of that same painting, in the part depicting the >> sacrament of marriage, you can see the bride has sleeves lined with the >> same sort of fur, and there's a tiny line at her hem showing the stripey >> pattern. >> >> That triptych is loaded with wonderful costume details -- seams for grande >> assiette sleeves on a youth, V-necks with lacing showing, wonderful stuff. >> Some details are deliberately "foreign" or allegorical, particularly on >> major characters, but many of the minor figures appear to be good >> representations. I saw the painting in Brussels but took only a few >> photos, I think because it was positioned or lit in such a way as to make >> photographing awkward that day. But I have some great art-book >> reproductions that show as much as my camera would have caught. >> >> --Robin >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 17:54:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81LspV5006633 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:54:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81LsKdD007043 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:54:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81LsHwn026028; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:54:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81LsDwn026007 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:54:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (bb136.cvip.net [129.8.204.136]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKK00LR326C4N@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:40:42 -0700 From: Kimiko Small X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030901142815.00afec50@127.0.0.1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Antivirus: avast!, Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested Subject: [h-cost] a few historical costume books on ebay. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wandering through E-bay, and found a couple of books someone might be interested in. The first isn't my time period, or I would have bid myself. 17th & 18th C Fashion Plate Costume Book http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2852609591&category=48864 2 days to go, 1 bid EVOLUTION of FASHION Book Costume & Style http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2852614949&category=48864 2 days to go, no bids Costume & Fashion Art Concise History Book http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3547808230&category=2234 3 days to go, no bids 17th & 18th C Fashion Plate Costume Book http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2852609591&category=48864 2 days, 1 bid fwiw, Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 18:15:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81MF1V5007007 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:15:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81MESdD007874 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:14:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81MEQaj004609; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:14:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81MENaj004542 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:14:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 0020830266 (12-248-149-227.client.attbi.com[12.248.149.227]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12) with SMTP id <20030901221416112006lv09e> (Authid: ladysarafina@att.net); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:14:17 +0000 Message-ID: <001e01c370d6$4ed4ff80$e395f80c@attbi.com> From: "Sarafina Sinclair" To: "Historical Costume" References: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:13:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1123 Subject: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi All, I am trying to prove [or disprove] a theory I have about flat caps being worn by women in the 1500s in England. My theory is that flat caps as worn by female re-enactors at ren faires and in the SCA were not worn by women in England in the 16th century. There are two portraits which come close (Katherine Parre in 1545 and Queen Elizabeth I in 1558), but those are not exactly flat caps. I am defining a flat cap as a hat in which the top of the crown, bottom of the crown, and brim have the same circumference, and the crown is not gathered into the brim. So, if you have any portraits, drawing, woodcuts, etc proving me wrong, please let me know. I am in the process of writing a paper on the subject. Thanks! Harlie DesRoches _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 18:15:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81MFnV5007024 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:15:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81MFBdD007941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:15:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81MFBaj004897; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:15:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81MF8aj004882 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:15:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (bb136.cvip.net [129.8.204.136]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKK00LYX3534N@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:01:29 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] a few historical costume books on ebay. In-reply-to: <5.2.1.1.0.20030901142815.00afec50@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030901150004.02cb82b0@127.0.0.1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Antivirus: avast!, Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 02:40 PM 9/1/2003 -0700, you wrote: >17th & 18th C Fashion Plate Costume Book >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2852609591&category=48864 >2 days, 1 bid hehehe, didn't mean to repeat myself. Here was the one I was trying for. BOOK MOURNING DRESS COSTUME & SOCIAL HISTORY http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3547694056&category=268 3 days, 5 bids Kimiko _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 18:50:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81MoeV5007643 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:50:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81Mo1dD009568 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:50:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81Mo0aj019201; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:50:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81Mnuaj019174 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:49:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-29-195.o1.jps.net ([216.119.29.195] helo=pavilion) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19txUh-0001wd-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:49:56 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c370db$a83992c0$c31d77d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001e01c370d6$4ed4ff80$e395f80c@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:52:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I can't picture at all this hat you are describing, it sounds like a pill box that Jackie O would wear. But I'm tired. There is a quote from Harrison's Description of England in Shakespeares Youth published in Holinshed's Chronicle, 1577-87 about Flat Caps, but I'm not sure this is the same type of cap you are referring to. "They also wore flat Caps, both then and many yeares after, as well Aprentizes as Journey-men and others, both at home and abroad, whom the Pages of the Court in derision called 'Flat Caps.' Sorry, don't know who "they" is referring to. I just have in my head a muffin cap, but you did say not gathered. Any images of men in such caps? Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarafina Sinclair" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats > Hi All, > > I am trying to prove [or disprove] a theory I have about flat caps being > worn by women in the 1500s in England. My theory is that flat caps as worn > by female re-enactors at ren faires and in the SCA were not worn by women in > England in the 16th century. There are two portraits which come close > (Katherine Parre in 1545 and Queen Elizabeth I in 1558), but those are not > exactly flat caps. I am defining a flat cap as a hat in which the top of the > crown, bottom of the crown, and brim have the same circumference, and the > crown is not gathered into the brim. > > So, if you have any portraits, drawing, woodcuts, etc proving me wrong, > please let me know. I am in the process of writing a paper on the subject. > > Thanks! > > Harlie DesRoches > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 19:30:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81NUCV5008318 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:30:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81NSsdD011341 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:28:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81NSrQC004886; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:28:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h81NSoQC004833 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:28:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 0020830266 (12-248-149-227.client.attbi.com[12.248.149.227]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id <2003090123284411300sradee> (Authid: ladysarafina@att.net); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:28:44 +0000 Message-ID: <000c01c370e0$b586c740$e395f80c@attbi.com> From: "Sarafina Sinclair" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001e01c370d6$4ed4ff80$e395f80c@attbi.com> <000c01c370db$a83992c0$c31d77d8@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:28:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1123 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here is a portrait of Edward VI in a flat cap. http://www.marileecody.com/edward3.jpg Here is the portrait of Katherine Parr that I was referring to. http://www.marileecody.com/parr-scrots.jpg The hat is black against a black background, so it is REALLY hard to see any detail on the hat. I think it's the same style of hat that Henry VIII is usually pictured in. http://www.marileecody.com/henryfam.jpg Jane Ashelford calls it the "halo-brimmed bonnet." That style of hat seems to be a male hat style also because this is the only portrait of a woman wearing it that I have found. I can also find drawing of non noblemen wearing flat caps like Edward VI, but none of women. Harlie Des Roches ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats > I can't picture at all this hat you are describing, it sounds like a pill > box that Jackie O would wear. But I'm tired. There is a quote from > Harrison's Description of England in Shakespeares Youth published in > Holinshed's Chronicle, 1577-87 about Flat Caps, but I'm not sure this is the > same type of cap you are referring to. > > "They also wore flat Caps, both then and many yeares after, as well > Aprentizes as Journey-men and others, both at home and abroad, whom the > Pages of the Court in derision called 'Flat Caps.' > > Sorry, don't know who "they" is referring to. I just have in my head a > muffin cap, but you did say not gathered. Any images of men in such caps? > > Lisa Sinervo > www.ThrednedleStrete.com > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 20:39:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h820dQV5009617 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:39:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h820ckdD015052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:38:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h820civ8004498; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:38:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h820cfv8004474 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:38:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-002-226.jps.net ([216.119.2.226] helo=pavilion) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19tzBw-0006vV-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:38:41 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c370ea$da4ddd20$e20277d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001e01c370d6$4ed4ff80$e395f80c@attbi.com><000c01c370db$a83992c0$c31d77d8@pavilion> <000c01c370e0$b586c740$e395f80c@attbi.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:40:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sarafina wrote: > Jane Ashelford > calls it the "halo-brimmed bonnet." That style of hat seems to be a male hat > style also because this is the only portrait of a woman wearing it that I > have found. I can also find drawing of non noblemen wearing flat caps like > Edward VI, but none of women. > > Harlie Des Roches can't recall images of women wearing such hats either, but will keep my eye out. Lisa _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 20:46:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h820keV5009738 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:46:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h820k4dD015443 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:46:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h820k3v8007558; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:46:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h820k1v8007533 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:46:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip53.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.164.53]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9256AA4D for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:45:59 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 17:46:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Message-ID: <3F5385DB.19877.2935004F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <001e01c370d6$4ed4ff80$e395f80c@attbi.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I am trying to prove [or disprove] a theory I have about flat caps > being worn by women in the 1500s in England. My theory is that flat > caps as worn by female re-enactors at ren faires and in the SCA were > not worn by women in England in the 16th century. There are two > portraits which come close (Katherine Parre in 1545 and Queen > Elizabeth I in 1558), but those are not exactly flat caps. I am > defining a flat cap as a hat in which the top of the crown, bottom of > the crown, and brim have the same circumference, and the crown is not > gathered into the brim. > > So, if you have any portraits, drawing, woodcuts, etc proving me > wrong, please let me know. I am in the process of writing a paper on > the subject. Kateryne Parr is amongst the earliest paintings where you see these types of caps. However, you can see (in some of Holbein's drawings) what is felt to be the very earliest use of flat caps and halo bonnets by women. The Francois Clouet painting of Elizabeth of Austria in the Louvre also has one. I only found one webphoto of the painting and it's so dark you can barely see it. You might find a better one than: http://cartelfr.louvre.fr/cartelfr/visite?srv=car_not_frame&idNotice=1 070 The Princesse de Conde also wears one, but I couldn't find any webphotos of it at all. The painting I'm familiar with is (or was) in the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris. This was also called a court bonnet or a "taffeta pipkin" in the 16th C. The "pipkin" term was in use from 1565 to 1595, although they were apparently worn earlier. (The similar men's caps were worn from approximately 1535 until the end of the century.) The were generally worn over elaborately dressed hair, a linen coif, a jeweled caul or confining hair net. As to whether the crown was pleated or gathered into the brim, that's a little more complicated. The Holbein drawing I'm thinking of is definitely of that type. Most of the others, including for men (such as the halo bonnet) did have the crown pleated in, albeit in such a manner that it was soft and flat, not the high crowned types like you see in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620 or the arch brimmed hats like on Lady Kylson that has been discussed earlier. This is what I came up with on very quick looks, so I'm sure you can come up with more by looking through the art work from the period outside of costume books (which sometimes only show the most common forms, not all the forms that were in use in the period.) Kat (aka "Hat Kat") _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 21:08:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8218pV5010145 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:08:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82186dD016579 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:08:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82184di016757; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:08:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82182di016715 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:08:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.9/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8217xIf010166 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.196.213] (tnt-1-21.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.213]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8217sX4010125 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 10:06:07 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 6:10 PM -0400 8/31/03, Nancy Kiel wrote: >In Rogier van der Weyden's Crucifixtion in a Church, c 1445, center >of Altar of the Seven Sacraments, the woman behind the cross appears >to have a "plaid" lining to her over-dress. (The plaid is very >open, so could be considered a check?) Has anyone seen anything >similar in other paintings? I always associate plaids with >Scotland, of course. (Robin noted that in this painting the "plaid" effect is an illusion, but addressing the more general question ...) It's a very modern phenomenon for plaid/tartan patterns to be strongly associated with Scotland (pretty much a product of the Victorian "re-discovery" of Scottish tartans, and the associated fad for Scottish kitsch). Once you start looking for them in historic art or in textile archaeology you start realizing how mistaken that association is. I know there have been threads about this topic before, so a search in the archives may turn up lists of examples. As a general summary, examples of plaid/checked cloth used as body garments seems to have been dictated and restricted by fashion trends -- i.e., it never seems to have been a random option, but generally occurs as part of an identifiable fashion fad -- but in other uses, such as household furnishings, plaid does seem to have been a relatively random option in many times and places. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 21:26:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h821QwV5010474 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:26:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h821QOdD017371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:26:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h821QMdi023978; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:26:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h821QJdi023875 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a223.in-tch.com [66.62.107.23]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8216FI15665 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F53F237.A3C4F7F1@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:28:23 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey, Jean, what were you reading this in? It sounds very interesting, and just the sort of thing I'm starting to explore.... --sue Jean Waddie wrote: > > I was reading about this recently (and I'm sure others will correct my > details, since cloth manufacture is certainly not my speciality). In > Saxon/Viking times, you get lots of stripes and checks, they're using > worsted yarn, and very little fulling. By about 1200, they're using > woollen yarn (carded not combed, with more short fluffy fibres), dyed in > the piece instead of in the skein, and heavily fulled and clipped. > Those processes would blur woven patterns, so fabrics are more likely to > be plain. > > You can't identify cause and effect, but the fabric type and the pattern > (or plain) seem to go together. Since well-fulled, piece-dyed fabrics > were considered better quality, you can see how stripes and checks would > not be favoured by the upper classes. I don't know how long that > preference lasted, however. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 22:17:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h822HDV5011438 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:17:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h822GfdD019685 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:16:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h822GdM6014400; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:16:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h822GaM6014375 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:16:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-027scfairp0104.dialsprint.net ([63.176.24.104] helo=faucet.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19u0ih-00014v-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:16:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3F540AD7.8030109@faucet.net> Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 22:13:27 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats References: <001e01c370d6$4ed4ff80$e395f80c@attbi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sarafina Sinclair wrote: > I am defining a flat cap as a hat in which the top of the > crown, bottom of the crown, and brim have the same circumference, and the > crown is not gathered into the brim. Do you have evidence for this construction? The only extant flat cap that I know of that's not knitted to shape is in Arnold's Patterns of Fashion and is pleated to the brim (p. 15, figs. 80-82). I submit that this is more likely the actual construction of what we are calling a flat cap. It can certainly look like a flat cap, as you can see with mine: http://www.faucet.net/costume/cap.html which is also pleated to the brim. The non-pleated/gathered construction of circle and donut shapes that is so common among reenactors is actually more difficult to sew than one that uses a larger circle for the crown pleated into the brim. The latter, depending on how it is worn, can look flat or not. > So, if you have any portraits, drawing, woodcuts, etc proving me wrong, > please let me know. I am in the process of writing a paper on the subject. If you're only looking at England, here are some examples. (In Germany, of course, you find more, and there are a couple from Spain as well.) "A lady aged thirty called Queen Elizabeth I" by an unknown artist, 1563. Arnold, Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, p. 139, fig. 222. (I am slightly dubious that this is actually from England, as it looks more Northern to me in style, but for the purposes of your paper, Arnold's opinion should probably take precedence!) Detail from a christening procession...on 30 September 1565...in the Royal Chapel at the Palace of Westminster.... Ibid, p. 264, fig. 351. a possibility, though not worn entirely flat: "An unknown lady" by Hans Eworth, 1565-8. Hearn, Karen, ed. Dynasties: Painting in Tudor and Jacobean England 1530-1630, p. 72. a contestant for a "halo brimmed bonnet": "An unknown lady" by Hans Holbein the Younger, 1530s-40s. Ibid, p. 148. Cheers, Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 23:02:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8232DV5012322 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:02:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8231gdD021991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:01:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8231epV003361; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:01:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8231XpV003308 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:01:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-005-235.jps.net ([216.119.5.235] helo=pavilion) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19u1QC-0000WF-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:01:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c370fe$ced3d8a0$eb0577d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:03:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] dating Ultra Kraft buttons...... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8232DV5012322 Status: RO Someone on another list is trying to date some buttons. Here's her post. "I recently acquired the fabric and notion stash of a friend of my mother's. Among her buttons were cards of baby buttons. Each card has a picture of a yellow haired baby in a pink dress. The baby is holding a string that is tied to a white duck on wheels. There is a paned window which has a small button sewn in each of the panes. The bottom of the card says "genuine ocean pearl". The name of the company is Ultra Kraft. The picture on the button card reminds me of something from the forties- especially because of the duck on wheels, and also because the baby looks kind of like the Gerber baby." Has anyone run into these buttons before. The poster is from the US. Thanks, Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 23:52:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h823q5V5013258 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:52:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h823pHdD023986 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:51:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h823pFpV023093; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:51:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h823pDpV023067 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:51:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 57394 invoked by uid 1005); 2 Sep 2003 03:50:57 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.095736 secs); 02 Sep 2003 03:50:57 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.095736 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 2 Sep 2003 03:50:57 -0000 Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:51:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets In-Reply-To: <001201c3709f$e5018960$270477d8@pavilion> Message-ID: <20030901235026.T55928-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I always assumed that it meant upright, stiff, and flattened at the bust, though now that I think about it I don't know where I came by that assumption... Drea On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Lisa Sinervo wrote: > looks like 1603 was the date of Florio's Translation of Montaige's essays > from 1580-1592. I'm going to keep an eye out for "spangolized" - not sure > what that means. Although looking at the original work would probably be > more useful. If I happen to stumble across this I'll let you know. > > Lisa > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kate M Bunting" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 8:03 AM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets > > > > Actually Montaigne died in 1592 so the translation you quote postdates > > his life. I wonder what the translator meant by "spangolized"? > > > > Kate Bunting > > Library, University of Derby > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 1 23:54:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h823slV5013311 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:54:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h823sIdD024100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:54:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h823sIpV024252; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:54:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h823sFpV024240 for ; Mon, 1 Sep 2003 21:54:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from user-112vq8b.biz.mindspring.com ([66.47.233.11]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19u2FD-0004ma-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:54:15 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: ledesign@pop.newsguy.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200309011801.h81I0qPY012380@net.indra.com> References: <200309011801.h81I0qPY012380@net.indra.com> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:29:03 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: LEdge Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: [h-cost] tiny (sz 4) Issey Miyake leather jodhpurs X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ebay find: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2852350368&category=46810 thanks Leslie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 06:52:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82AqvV5004143 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:52:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82AqGdD008447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 04:52:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82AqDoU014409; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 04:52:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt6.ihug.co.nz (grunt6.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82AqBoU014393 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 04:52:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p58-max20.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.118.161.122] by grunt6.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19u8lb-0004Ip-00; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:52:07 +1200 Message-ID: <001e01c37140$4037a4e0$7aa176cb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001201c3709f$e5018960$270477d8@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:52:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I would guess that "spangolized" means something to do with Spain. > Like, "made in the Spanish style". Just a guess based on what I know of > Elizabethan period mis-spellings of terms related to Spain :) I was wondering if it meant anything like spangled. You know with all those variant spellings we so love. Spangles meaning those wee sequin things.. which are cut from a piece of metal.. the metal has holes left behind... one of those iron corsets looks like it's had a whole lot of "spangles" punched from it. Just a crazy wild guess that may be rather tenuous;) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 08:28:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82CSgr0031556 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:28:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82CSCdD011618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:28:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82CSAop017705; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:28:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82CS8op017685 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:28:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-002-007.jps.net ([216.119.2.7] helo=pavilion) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uAGV-0000si-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 05:28:08 -0700 Message-ID: <001701c3714d$f690a180$070277d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001201c3709f$e5018960$270477d8@pavilion> <001e01c37140$4037a4e0$7aa176cb@michaela> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 05:30:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I thought the same thing. Looks like spangles, but it seemed a bit odd in context. Thanks for the previous post. I had read sometime ago Valerie Steele's book as my local library had it, but I couldn't remember exactly why she determined the metal corsets were corrective in nature and not a normal fashion item. Lisa www.ThrednedleStrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 3:52 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century Iron Plate corsets > > I would guess that "spangolized" means something to do with Spain. > > Like, "made in the Spanish style". Just a guess based on what I know of > > Elizabethan period mis-spellings of terms related to Spain :) > > I was wondering if it meant anything like spangled. You know with all those > variant spellings we so love. > > Spangles meaning those wee sequin things.. which are cut from a piece of > metal.. the metal has holes left behind... one of those iron corsets looks > like it's had a whole lot of "spangles" punched from it. > > Just a crazy wild guess that may be rather tenuous;) > > michaela > http://costumes.glittersweet.com > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 08:46:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82CkUr0005848 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:46:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82CjxdD012197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:46:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82Cjwop023888; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:45:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82Cjtop023865 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:45:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-002-007.jps.net ([216.119.2.7] helo=pavilion) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uAXi-00026f-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 05:45:55 -0700 Message-ID: <002001c37150$72c45e20$070277d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001e01c370d6$4ed4ff80$e395f80c@attbi.com> <3F540AD7.8030109@faucet.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 05:48:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Sarafina Sinclair wrote: > > > I am defining a flat cap as a hat in which the top of the > > crown, bottom of the crown, and brim have the same circumference, and the > > crown is not gathered into the brim. > that I know of that's not knitted to shape is in Arnold's Patterns of > Fashion and is pleated to the brim (p. 15, figs. 80-82). I submit that > this is more likely the actual construction of what we are calling a > flat cap. It can certainly look like a flat cap, as you can see with mine: > http://www.faucet.net/costume/cap.html > which is also pleated to the brim. The non-pleated/gathered > construction of circle and donut shapes that is so common among > reenactors is actually more difficult to sew than one that uses a larger > circle for the crown pleated into the brim. The latter, depending on > how it is worn, can look flat or not. This circle/donut shape also wastes more fabric than the pleating construction. I've seen this pattern on the internet and was very puzzled by it myself, mentally I don't even connect this non-gathered hat with "flat cap." though no doubt it works. Perhaps the paper might morph into the subject of the construction of flat caps. Lisa _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 09:14:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82DEUr0017803 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:14:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82DDrdD013346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:13:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82DDqYf004698; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:13:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ureach.com (mail.ureach.com [63.150.151.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82DDmYf004675 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:13:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail21.ureach.com (mail21.ureach.com [172.16.2.81]) by ureach.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26835 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:13:48 -0400 Received: from TEENALAPTOP (adsl-81-137-76.asm.bellsouth.net [65.81.137.76]) by mail21.ureach.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA18299 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:13:48 -0400 Message-ID: <004001c37153$f2b7ec70$260110ac@TEENALAPTOP> From: "Beteena Paradise" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030829162429.026c80d0@127.0.0.1> Subject: [h-cost] Looking for Margo Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:13:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Please excuse this email! If Margo Anderson could email me privately, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 09:57:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82DvLr0022359 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:57:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82Du9dD015457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:56:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82Du63S023260; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:56:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82Du33S023154 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:56:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> Received: from mtiwebc36 (unknown[204.127.135.75]) by mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <2003090213555711100mp89pe>; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:55:57 +0000 Received: from [63.240.154.24] by mtiwebc36; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 13:55:55 +0000 From: ladysarafina@att.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 13:55:55 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Aug 25 2003) X-Authenticated-Sender: aHN3YXNoaW5ndG9uQGF0dC5uZXQ= X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Melanie wrote: >>Do you have evidence for this construction? The only extant flat cap that I know of that's not knitted to shape is in Arnold's Patterns of Fashion and is pleated to the brim (p. 15, figs. 80-82). No I don't. The construction that I am describing it what you will find on most Tudor/Elizabethan costuming websites. Melanie wrote: >>I submit that this is more likely the actual construction of what we are calling a flat cap. It can certainly look like a flat cap, as you can see with mine: I would describe the hat you made as a soft cap and there are plenty of portraits of women of various social classes in England wearing that hat. There are portraits of men wearing decidedly flatter caps as well as the softer caps. I think you are helping me to prove my theory that the tudor flat cap pattern that you find all over the place isn't an accurate representation of a tudor cap and most certainly wasn't worn by women. Melanie wrote: >>If you're only looking at England, here are some examples. (In Germany, of course, you find more, and there are a couple from Spain as well.) >>"A lady aged thirty called Queen Elizabeth I" by an unknown artist, 1563. Arnold, Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, p. 139, fig. 222. I have a color reprint of that portrait and it is definitely more Swedish in its style. This is supposedly a portrait that Queen Elizabeth had made for Erik I of Sweden when she was allowing him to court her. Also, that hat is wired and I haven't seen anyone recreating the look of that hat. I am definitely looking specifically at England because generally the women I see wearing a flat cap are wearing Tudor garb. Thank you for all of your input and please keep it coming! Harlie Des Roches _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 10:19:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82EJOr0022815 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:19:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82EIndD017060 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:18:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82EIm3S006605; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:18:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.uvm.edu (badger.uvm.edu [132.198.101.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82EIj3S006590 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:18:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uvm.edu (ip104052.uvm.edu [132.198.104.52]) by smtp.uvm.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82EIhFa026797 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:18:43 -0400 Message-ID: <3F54A6B7.9040704@uvm.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 10:18:31 -0400 From: Hope Greenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 (CK-UVM) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com References: <200309020108.h8218Ldi016874@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] re: 16th century women's hats X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Harlie DesRoches asked: > I am trying to prove [or disprove] a theory I have about flat caps > being worn by women in the 1500s in England. > So, if you have any portraits, drawing, woodcuts, etc proving me > wrong, please let me know. Not proving anything, in fact, muddying the waters, but in case you don't have these, here are two images to add to your collection of hats that are not the flat cap but of roughly the same shape, from Holbein: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/dessinspl28.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/dessinspl29.jpg - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 10:42:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82Egir0023583 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:42:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82Eg2dD018998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:42:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82Eg03S021744; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:42:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com (imo-m02.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82Efu3S021618 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:41:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.15e.2499f72f (4012) for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:41:49 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <15e.2499f72f.2c86062d@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:41:49 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: cotton mills of New England To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6018 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 8/31/2003 7:49:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, beads@traknet.com writes: > Currently > they do not have an e-mail address! At least not one that I could find. > Their website is www.athm.org Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 11:10:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82FAOr0024098 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:10:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82F9cdD021463 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:09:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82F9YOR012005; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:09:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82F9UOR011944 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:09:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip198.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.198]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E88E6DDE8 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 08:09:28 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 08:09:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: 16th century women's hats Message-ID: <3F545036.21200.2C4B751F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F54A6B7.9040704@uvm.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Harlie DesRoches asked: > > I am trying to prove [or disprove] a theory I have about flat caps > > being worn by women in the 1500s in England. > So, if you have any > portraits, drawing, woodcuts, etc proving me > wrong, please let me > know. > > Not proving anything, in fact, muddying the waters, but in case you > don't have these, here are two images to add to your collection of > hats that are not the flat cap but of roughly the same shape, from > Holbein: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/dessinspl28.jpg > http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/dessinspl29.jpg The second one (129) is felt to be a front on view of a woman wearing a halobonnet. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 13:22:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82HMor0024700 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:22:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82HM1dD004588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:22:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82HLri6008379; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:21:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82HLoi6008335 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:21:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19uEqj-000JwM-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:21:49 +0100 Message-ID: <75bo4$AE+MV$IwwF@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:12:36 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid? References: <3F53F237.A3C4F7F1@in-tch.com> In-Reply-To: <3F53F237.A3C4F7F1@in-tch.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I was preparing a talk (which never happened) on the production of clothing in the 11th-12th century, from fibre to garment, covering spinning, weaving, dyeing, garment construction. Most of the information came from the Museum of London Textiles and Clothing book, the section on textile production. I picked up other snippets from other books and websites. I think the MoL book mentioned something about worsted and striped patterns, but I think the full connection was my own. It's just so boring getting into the late 12th/early 13th century, when everything's so very plain! Jean Sue Clemenger wrote >Hey, Jean, what were you reading this in? It sounds very interesting, >and just the sort of thing I'm starting to explore.... >--sue > >Jean Waddie wrote: >> >> I was reading about this recently (and I'm sure others will correct my >> details, since cloth manufacture is certainly not my speciality). In >> Saxon/Viking times, you get lots of stripes and checks, they're using >> worsted yarn, and very little fulling. By about 1200, they're using >> woollen yarn (carded not combed, with more short fluffy fibres), dyed in >> the piece instead of in the skein, and heavily fulled and clipped. >> Those processes would blur woven patterns, so fabrics are more likely to >> be plain. >> >> You can't identify cause and effect, but the fabric type and the pattern >> (or plain) seem to go together. Since well-fulled, piece-dyed fabrics >> were considered better quality, you can see how stripes and checks would >> not be favoured by the upper classes. I don't know how long that >> preference lasted, however. >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 13:39:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82HdBr0024858 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:39:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82HcKdD006346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:38:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82HcJi6023062; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:38:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82HcEi6022931 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200309021738.h82HcEi6022931@net.indra.com> Received: from mtiwebc20 (mtiwebc20.worldnet.att.net[204.127.135.59]) by mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <2003090217380911100mr137e>; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:38:09 +0000 Received: from [63.240.154.24] by mtiwebc20; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:38:08 +0000 From: ladysarafina@att.net To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:38:08 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Aug 25 2003) X-Authenticated-Sender: aHN3YXNoaW5ndG9uQGF0dC5uZXQ= Subject: [h-cost] wedding at bermondsey X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi All, Does anyone know where I can see a scan of the Wedding at Bermondsey painting? Harlie Des Roches > > > Harlie DesRoches asked: > > > I am trying to prove [or disprove] a theory I have about flat caps > > > being worn by women in the 1500s in England. > So, if you have any > > portraits, drawing, woodcuts, etc proving me > wrong, please let me > > know. > > > > Not proving anything, in fact, muddying the waters, but in case you > > don't have these, here are two images to add to your collection of > > hats that are not the flat cap but of roughly the same shape, from > > Holbein: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/dessinspl28.jpg > > http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/dessinspl29.jpg > > The second one (129) is felt to be a front on view of a woman wearing > a halobonnet. > > Kat > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 15:02:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82J2hr0025474 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:02:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82J1adD013679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:01:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82J1WO8004062; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:01:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.uvm.edu (badger.uvm.edu [132.198.101.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82J1RO8003985 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:01:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uvm.edu (ip104036.uvm.edu [132.198.104.36]) by smtp.uvm.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82IKmFa024068 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:20:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3F54DF7F.4070503@uvm.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 14:20:47 -0400 From: Hope Greeenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com References: <200309021800.h82I0kTC012267@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200309021800.h82I0kTC012267@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Re: 16th century women's hats X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kat said: > The second one (129) is felt to be a front on view of a woman wearing > a halobonnet. Halobonnet? I'm not familiar with that term. Is it local (to this list) shorthand for something? Any handy pictures/links to an example? Thanks. - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 15:44:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82JiPr0025794 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:44:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82JhVdD019967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:43:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82JhTk8012122; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:43:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82JhOk8012059 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:43:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip108.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.108]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFB86DD2B for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:43:22 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 12:43:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 16th century women's hats Message-ID: <3F54906E.14039.2D465146@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F54DF7F.4070503@uvm.edu> References: <200309021800.h82I0kTC012267@net.indra.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Halobonnet? I'm not familiar with that term. Is it local (to this > list) shorthand for something? Any handy pictures/links to an example? > Thanks. I believe that halo bonnet is actually what they were called in the period. I think they got the name for the way they usually had an ostrich feather curled around the brim. One of them which is most commonly found in costuming books is the one on Henry VIII by Holbein: http://www.artchive.com/artchive/H/holbein/holbein_henry_viii.jpg.html or another by the same artist: http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein59.html or a nice one of Edward VI: http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein45.html It was one of several types of "court bonnets" worn in the 16th C. Certainly not shorthand from this list. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 18:42:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82MgTr0027056 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:42:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82MdqdD009563 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:39:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h82MdkbV021152; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:39:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h82Md8bV020548 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:39:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 2824 invoked by uid 1005); 2 Sep 2003 22:38:57 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.222342 secs); 02 Sep 2003 22:38:57 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.222342 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 2 Sep 2003 22:38:56 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:39:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030902183734.X66462-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I believe that, during this period, the shaping would have been performed by a supportive, front-laced kirtle beneath the gown. You can see the shape and curve of her breasts under the gown. If you're a bit more sturdily built than the lissom lady in the picture, I'd suggest using rope stiffening or perhaps multiple layers of canvas in the undergown to get the flat look you're aiming for. Good luck! Lovely style. Drea On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Ella Lynoure Rajamaki wrote: > On Mon, 25 Aug 2003, Deredere Galbraith wrote: > > > It is French 1496-1498 > > http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Tudor/Tudor.jpg > > It is the blue orange dress in the front > > of the picture. > > I wonder if this dress is worn with a corset or that the dress is > > stiffened. > > The world wonders with you. Exact time when people started wearing stays > in unknown, but first survived corset is from 100 year later than the date > you gave for the painting. > > I'd personally just use hair canvas and possibly some boning the the > dress itself > > -- > Lynoure Rajamaki > lynoure@tuug.fi > http://www.lynoure.com > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 20:13:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h830Dcr0027437 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:13:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8306ldD017755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:06:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8306j6U021617; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:06:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt5.ihug.co.nz (grunt5.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.45]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8306g6U021594 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:06:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p353-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.193.99] by grunt5.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19uLAW-0007ol-00; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:06:41 +1200 Message-ID: <005001c371af$42a45fb0$63c1adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030902183734.X66462-100000@shell.siscom.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:06:43 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > If you're a bit more sturdily built than the lissom lady in the picture, > I'd suggest using rope stiffening or perhaps multiple layers of canvas in > the undergown to get the flat look you're aiming for. And check out the Privy Accounts of .. well they are on the richard III group's website (US not UK group) There are accounts of fabric for gowns, kirtles and bokeham lining (full lining in some cases, so I'm thinking it's not as stiff as out buckram) and canvas in only enough for a bodice. They have lists of fabric for kirtles, linings and canvas for them too:) The accounts are about 1475 so definately appropriate for this era:) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 20:47:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h830ler0027551 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:47:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h830l6dD019954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:47:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h830l46U011836; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:47:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h830l06U011803 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-001scfairp0214.dialsprint.net ([63.184.192.214] helo=faucet.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uLnX-0005um-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:46:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:43:48 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ladysarafina@att.net wrote: > Melanie wrote: > >>Do you have evidence for this construction? The only extant flat cap >> that I know of that's not knitted to shape is in Arnold's Patterns of >> Fashion and is pleated to the brim (p. 15, figs. 80-82). > > No I don't. The construction that I am describing it what you will find on > most Tudor/Elizabethan costuming websites. Sure, but where did they get it? What I'm saying is that I think this construction is reverse-engineered by modern folks who are trying to get the flat cap look. That may be what you're thinking too, but I'm a little confused by the rest of what you said: > Melanie wrote: > >>I submit that this is more likely the actual construction of what we are >> calling a flat cap. It can certainly look like a flat cap, as you can see >> with mine: > > I would describe the hat you made as a soft cap and there are plenty of > portraits of women of various social classes in England wearing that hat. > There are portraits of men wearing decidedly flatter caps as well as the > softer caps. I guess I just don't see that much difference between what you're calling a soft cap and what you're calling a flat cap. I'm also interested in pictures of women wearing 'soft' caps--could you list some? Maybe that would help me understand the distinction that you're making. From what I can tell, all of these are or could be constructed the same way, but they are worn differently. The really flat ones just sit higher on the head, so the head doesn't poke up into the crown. The less-flat ones sit lower so that the head does poke into the crown, or they have the crown shoved to one side so you can see the pleats, or the crown is a little puffier and possibly stuffed and/or stiffened with something. > I think you are helping me to prove my theory that the tudor flat cap pattern > that you find all over the place isn't an accurate representation of a tudor > cap and most certainly wasn't worn by women. So you're saying (a) that the flat cap pattern on most Tudor/Elizabethan websites (circle plus three donuts) probably isn't correct and (b) that there's a difference between flat caps and soft caps and (c) that the former weren't worn by women. Yes? So if the pattern that's out there isn't correct, and you don't think that flat caps are pleated like soft caps, how are flat caps made? (This is one part that confused me.) > I have a color reprint of that portrait and it is definitely more Swedish in > its style. This is supposedly a portrait that Queen Elizabeth had made for > Erik I of Sweden when she was allowing him to court her. That would explain it. > Also, that hat is wired and I haven't seen anyone recreating the look of that hat. How do you know it's wired? > I am definitely looking specifically at England because generally the women I > see wearing a flat cap are wearing Tudor garb. Can you give me some examples? I don't remember seeing Tudor ladies in flat caps (other than the Catherine Parr that you cited earlier), but then I concentrate later in the century. Again confusion: I thought you were saying earlier that women didn't wear the flat cap. Thanks for the interesting discussion, Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 22:51:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h832pWr0029014 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:51:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h832osdD026300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:50:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h832opWQ008413; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:50:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h832onWQ008368 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:50:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m58.in-tch.com [216.166.191.58]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h832UhI08981 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:30:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F555785.2289E587@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 20:52:53 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early plaid? References: <3F53F237.A3C4F7F1@in-tch.com> <75bo4$AE+MV$IwwF@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Aaah...that book I actually own (bought at the MoL last year). It is, however, fostering at a friend's house at the moment. Hmmm..... --sue, who's been learning to spin this summer, and whose brain got all caught up in worsted and woolen distinctions..... Jean Waddie wrote: > > I was preparing a talk (which never happened) on the production of > clothing in the 11th-12th century, from fibre to garment, covering > spinning, weaving, dyeing, garment construction. Most of the > information came from the Museum of London Textiles and Clothing book, > the section on textile production. I picked up other snippets from > other books and websites. I think the MoL book mentioned something > about worsted and striped patterns, but I think the full connection was > my own. > > It's just so boring getting into the late 12th/early 13th century, when > everything's so very plain! > > Jean > > Sue Clemenger wrote > >Hey, Jean, what were you reading this in? It sounds very interesting, > >and just the sort of thing I'm starting to explore.... > >--sue > > > >Jean Waddie wrote: > >> > >> I was reading about this recently (and I'm sure others will correct my > >> details, since cloth manufacture is certainly not my speciality). In > >> Saxon/Viking times, you get lots of stripes and checks, they're using > >> worsted yarn, and very little fulling. By about 1200, they're using > >> woollen yarn (carded not combed, with more short fluffy fibres), dyed in > >> the piece instead of in the skein, and heavily fulled and clipped. > >> Those processes would blur woven patterns, so fabrics are more likely to > >> be plain. > >> > >> You can't identify cause and effect, but the fabric type and the pattern > >> (or plain) seem to go together. Since well-fulled, piece-dyed fabrics > >> were considered better quality, you can see how stripes and checks would > >> not be favoured by the upper classes. I don't know how long that > >> preference lasted, however. > >_______________________________________________ > >h-costume mailing list > >h-costume@mail.indra.com > >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > -- > Jean Waddie > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 23:16:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h833GGr0029154 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:16:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h833FedD027564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:15:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h833FdHf019850; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:15:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h833FZHf019754 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:15:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AC70E0022; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:13:52 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AC6E1FC022E; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:13:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01aa01c371c9$fd10aec0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:18:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-RBL-Warning: OSRELAY: Please stop using relays.osirusoft.com X-RBL-Warning: WEIGHT5: Weight of 5 reaches or exceeds the limit of 5. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. Subject: [h-cost] Some News X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This past week, I was on my airplane trip back from New Orleans to Cincinnati to Richmond, I was feeling like a celebrity. I was working on tracing embroidery patterns from 1850s-1920s. It seemed like everyone who passed asked what I was doing and then it lead to what my business was. Then they wanted my business card with our website address. I was sitting in a sports bar in Cincinnati for three and a half hours killing time. Half of the people were watching me, the other half a football game. People on the airplanes were watching too. I felt like Mr. Drawing Board on Captain Kangaroo. Good thing my teacher mode kicked in... learned then not to be bothered people are watching and asking questions. Who would have thought so many people would be interested in old embroidery patterns!!!! The second set of news... kinda slipped my mind. Back in June a reporter from the Associated Press (AP) interviewed me about the history of pants in America. With all the crazy things going on, I forgot to watch for the article in the newspapers. W-e-l-l the article started running on Aug. 11. The way the AP works is that the article can be run in any of the Associated Press subscribed newspapers/TV news shows any time within a six month period. In August, I found that the article ran in the following newspapers, New York Times, Boston Globe, Palm Beach, and Charleston, South Carolina. Here are some links to the article. The interview with me is in the last three paragraphs: http://www.boston.com/yourlife/fashion/articles/2003/08/11/fashion_liberating_pants/ http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/living/article/0,1651,TCP_1043_2208216,00.html http://www.charleston.net/stories/082203/fas_22pants.shtml For those who recall this reporter... this is the same one who interviewed me last year about 1940s fashions and put it in an article. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 2 23:54:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h833s2r0029571 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:54:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h833rYdD029062 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:53:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h833rWHf007188; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:53:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h833rTHf007116 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:53:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 0020830266 (12-248-149-227.client.attbi.com[12.248.149.227]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id <2003090303532211300srfpoe> (Authid: ladysarafina@att.net); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 03:53:22 +0000 Message-ID: <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> From: "Sarafina Sinclair" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:52:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1123 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO For the record, I am totally excited about this and apologize for not being clearer. Let me try again... My theory is that the completely flat, 3 donut + 1 complete circle of fabric, cut and construction method of making "tudor flat caps" is not a hat style that was worn by women of any social class in England in the 16th century. > > Melanie wrote: > Sure, but where did they get it? What I'm saying is that I think this > construction is reverse-engineered by modern folks who are trying to get > the flat cap look. I hadn't gone so far as to figure out where the pattern came from. Reverse engineering is just as plausible as any other explanation. What is lacking in all these descriptions of how to make the cap is the evidence supporting the cut and construction; no extant garments are referred to, no portraits/paintings/woodcuts/etc are shown. It is asserted, however, that both men and women wore them. > > Melanie wrote: > I guess I just don't see that much difference between what you're > calling a soft cap and what you're calling a flat cap. >From what I am finding, there is no difference in terms of what was worn in period. A "flat cap" is called such (I think) because it smushes down flat on one's head. I call a soft cap soft because the crown is one piece gathered into the crown with no defined edge, thus being soft. (like the one you're wearing in the photo). In terms of my definition in my hypothesis, a flat cap is truly flat. It is made of 3 donut shaped pieces and 1 complete circle. The complete circle is the top of the crown. It is sewn to one of the donuts at the outer edge. This creates the crown. The remaining 2 donuts are sewn together at the outer edge to create the brim. The crown is then sewn to the brim at the inner edge and voila, a hat. > > Melanie wrote: > How do you know it's wired? It's purely my guess. [So, I'm guilty of making generalizations too]. The way that the hat is standing up would be difficult to achieve without wire unless it was starched to high heaven and then some. >>>I said earlier: > > I am definitely looking specifically at England because generally the women I > > see wearing a flat cap are wearing Tudor garb. >Then you said: > Can you give me some examples? I don't remember seeing Tudor ladies in > flat caps (other than the Catherine Parr that you cited earlier), but > then I concentrate later in the century. Again confusion: I thought > you were saying earlier that women didn't wear the flat cap. The women I was referring to in that statement are women re-enactors. This whole thing came up because I was trying to document the 3 donuts + 1 circle style of hat. Since I had seen it alot, I assumed that it was period and that it would be easy to document. Well, I was wrong and have since gone looking for the answers. That should make everything as clear as mud. :D Harlie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 00:35:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834ZDr0029781 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:35:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834YddD001486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:34:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834Ycpk027004; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:34:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834YYpk026972 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:34:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-14-199.o1.jps.net ([216.119.14.199] helo=pavilion) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uPLl-0006fM-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:34:34 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c371d4$f8d01de0$c70e77d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <01aa01c371c9$fd10aec0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some News Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:36:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I bet this must give you such a buzz. Hour and hours of webbing, researching for years and years and then......."Penny E. Dunlap Ladnier from Chesterfield, Va., owner of costumegallery.com, an educational historic fashion Web site" says........ ;) as an Aussie would say........"good on ya!" Cheers, Lisa _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 00:41:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834fwr0029799 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:41:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834fIdD001845 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:41:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834fHpk000296; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:41:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from stanford.loosefoot.com (stanford.loosefoot.com [207.195.54.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834fEpk000270 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:41:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bernie.loosefoot.com (bernie.loosefoot.com [207.195.54.243]) by stanford.loosefoot.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BC99B160413 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:41:13 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 28439 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2003 04:41:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mabion.spublofe.com) (12.246.76.5) by bernie.loosefoot.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 04:41:13 -0000 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030902213354.009f6bb0@pop3.lfchosting.com> X-Sender: mabse/spublofe.com@pop3.lfchosting.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:38:58 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: MaryAnn Jones In-Reply-To: <200309011801.h81I0qPY012380@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] green X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I had a conversation today about Renaissance faire costuming with someone who new nothing about it. Her contribution to the conversation was that only prostitutes wore green in the English Elizabethan. I know that I have heard that the term greensleeves referred to prostitutes because of the grass stains, but I had never heard this theory about green before. Does anyone know if there is any substance to this for any historical time period? Has any color traditionally been associated with prostitution anywhere? thanks, Maryann, who coincidentally has a green Irish dress to wear to Renn faires. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 00:44:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834iZr0029806 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:44:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834hxdD001955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:43:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834hxpk001600; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:43:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h834hvpk001558 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:43:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Appin1@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.62.342c2821 (4312) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:43:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Appin1@aol.com Message-ID: <62.342c2821.2c86cb83@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:43:47 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] green To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 912 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, since I've seen a beautiful portrait of Queen Elizabeth in a dark green gown, I'd say that was an urban legend. Kathleen Norvell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 01:09:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8359Dr0029862 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 01:09:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8358WdD003349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:08:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8358SJ3013190; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:08:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from obsidian.spiritone.com (obsidian.spiritone.com [216.99.193.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8358PJ4013148 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:08:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by obsidian.spiritone.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h835EAsp001376 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:15:14 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] wedding at Bermondsey Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:09:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200309021738.h82HcEi6022931@net.indra.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I second this request. I know that I saw the picture somewhere recently, but no search seems to bring it up and I need it for some details. Regina > > Hi All, > > Does anyone know where I can see a scan of the Wedding at > Bermondsey painting? > > Harlie Des Roches > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 02:01:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83614r0030508 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 02:01:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8360QdD005458 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:00:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8360Mhv005267; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:00:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8360Jhv005242 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:00:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07509 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 01:21:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 01:21:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] green In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030902213354.009f6bb0@pop3.lfchosting.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, MaryAnn Jones wrote: > I had a conversation today about Renaissance faire costuming with > someone who new nothing about it. Her contribution to the > conversation was that only prostitutes wore green in the English > Elizabethan. I know that I have heard that the term greensleeves > referred to prostitutes because of the grass stains, but I had never > heard this theory about green before. > > Does anyone know if there is any substance to this for any historical > time period? Has any color traditionally been associated with > prostitution anywhere? We've had some lengthy discussions on this issue before. You might check the archives; look in December 1998 - January 1999 for a thread called "Color associations" for one good discussion (I happened to have had a post saved out from that one). The short version is that there are some references that seem to associate green with "loose morals" -- e.g. "to give a green gown" (presumably after a roll in the grass). However, this metaphor doesn't seem to translate into any actual tradition of wearing or not wearing green by particular types of women. Green does appear with reasonable frequency in Elizabethan inventories. A lot has been made of the song "Greensleeves" as referring somehow to a prostitute, but it's worth noting that the lady in that song did *not* give up her favors, despite the quantity of gifts her suitor lavished on her ... thus his complaint in the song. It's possible the lady's name was chosen because it did have an implication in period, but my guess is that the myth of the meaning of the color green has been laid over the song by later people looking for a connection. It's also worth noting that "green" has also frequently appeared in song and story as a color worn by fairies (not the cute little Victorian types, but the dangerous mystical types). The green magical girdle given to Sir Gawain, and the Green Knight he fights, are just a couple of obvious examples. When a mysterious person shows up dressed in green, that's a clue that s/he may not be of this world. Green is also used in literature (including Shakespeare) as a color worn by lovers and young people. And of course it's associated with May celebrations, which plays back into that same tradition of love and youth and festivity, with perhaps a little hanky-panky thrown in. Methinks your Renfaire acquaintance picked up some "received wisdom" based on slim evidence, oversimplified with repetition, and codified into urban legend. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 07:24:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83BO8r0009265 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:24:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83BNKdD016700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 05:23:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83BNIdt006540; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 05:23:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt5.ihug.co.nz (grunt5.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.45]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83BNDdt006489 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 05:23:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p1083-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.196.67] by grunt5.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19uVUU-0005tv-00; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 23:07:59 +1200 Message-ID: <009601c3720b$9fd0e4e0$63c1adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030902213354.009f6bb0@pop3.lfchosting.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] green Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:07:53 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I had a conversation today about Renaissance faire costuming with someone > who new nothing about it. Her contribution to the conversation was that > only prostitutes wore green in the English Elizabethan. I know that I have > heard that the term greensleeves referred to prostitutes because of the > grass stains, but I had never heard this theory about green before. lol! And someone just mentioned that you should never wear red to a Renaissance fair for the exact same reason;) I pointed out a few examples of QEI wearing red;) And a few other notable upper class type peoples;) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 08:49:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Cnkr0010854 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:49:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83CnGdD019412 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:49:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83CnEqE007751; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:49:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83CnAqF007674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:49:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h83CsUCm015755 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:54:30 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:54:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F55E36E.9030104@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:49:50 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] green & colors in clothing References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030902213354.009f6bb0@pop3.lfchosting.com> <009601c3720b$9fd0e4e0$63c1adcb@michaela> In-Reply-To: <009601c3720b$9fd0e4e0$63c1adcb@michaela> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO michaela wrote: >>heard that the term greensleeves referred to prostitutes because of the >>grass stains, but I had never heard this theory about green before. > lol! And someone just mentioned that you should never wear red to a > Renaissance fair for the exact same reason;) And any color of blue is only for servants, and purple only for royalty, and, and, and.... It's obvious, then, that the only thing a conscientious person can wear to a RenFaire is a gown made out of transparent vinyl. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _Traveling Dysshes_ A cookbook from medieval and renaissance sources, by my friend Pat McGregor, is for sale on eBay. Check it out! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3547211929&category=11108 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 08:50:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83CoYr0010872 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:50:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Co5dD019456 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:50:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Co4qE008250; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:50:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83CnxqE008136 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:50:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-002scfairp0230.dialsprint.net ([63.184.200.230] helo=faucet.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uX5C-0003Up-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 05:49:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3F55F0C3.40603@faucet.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:46:43 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sarafina Sinclair wrote: > My theory is that the completely flat, 3 donut + 1 complete circle of > fabric, cut and construction method of making "tudor flat caps" is not a hat > style that was worn by women of any social class in England in the 16th > century. Ok. > I hadn't gone so far as to figure out where the pattern came from. Reverse > engineering is just as plausible as any other explanation. What is lacking > in all these descriptions of how to make the cap is the evidence supporting > the cut and construction; no extant garments are referred to, no > portraits/paintings/woodcuts/etc are shown. It is asserted, however, that > both men and women wore them. Right, but (at the risk of repeating myself) because there is no evidence for this construction, and because there IS evidence for the pleated style, and because you can get the flat cap look with a pleated crown, and because it wastes fabric, and because it basically makes the hat harder than it needs to be to construct, I think that the 1 circle/3 donuts cut is historically incorrect. If this is true, your hypothesis is based on a false premise. My hypothesis is that the 1 circle/3 donut construction was not used at all in the 16th century, that the pleated crown construction was used to produce looks from 'flat cap' to 'soft cap', and that the pleated crown hats were more commonly worn by men than women (of course, women had a lot more choices in headgear). > The women I was referring to in that statement are women re-enactors. This > whole thing came up because I was trying to document the 3 donuts + 1 circle > style of hat. Since I had seen it alot, I assumed that it was period and > that it would be easy to document. I think it would be easier for you to start at the other end of the research process. You're starting with a modern finished product, assuming that it's period, and trying to document it. It might help to throw out the idea of the modern finished product and research what sorts of things like it existed in period, who wore them, how they wore them, how they were constructed, and what they were made of. You would have the same trouble starting with a modern leather, front-laced bodice and trying to document it. Sure, lots of people wear them, but trying to find historical evidence for them would lead you in circles if you were assuming they were correct. Just out of curiosity, for whom are you writing this paper? Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 09:08:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83D8ir0011227 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:08:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83D6AdD020529 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:06:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83D6AhI016506; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:06:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83D66hI016375 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a237.in-tch.com [66.62.107.37]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h83CjxI06933 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:46:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F55E7BA.AEAC7070@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:08:10 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It could also be felted, on lined in felt or something else that serves as some sort of malleable stiffener.... My two early morning cents' worth.. --sue Sarafina Sinclair wrote: > > > > Melanie wrote: > > How do you know it's wired? > > It's purely my guess. [So, I'm guilty of making generalizations too]. The > way that the hat is standing up would be difficult to achieve without wire > unless it was starched to high heaven and then some. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 09:08:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83D8qr0011233 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:08:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83D8JdD020678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:08:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83D8IhI017460; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:08:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83D8HhI017424 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:08:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a237.in-tch.com [66.62.107.37]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h83CmAI07696 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:48:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F55E83D.647BBAB7@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:10:21 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] green References: <62.342c2821.2c86cb83@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yeah....I *want* that dress some day! --sue Appin1@aol.com wrote: > > Well, since I've seen a beautiful portrait of Queen Elizabeth in a dark green > gown, I'd say that was an urban legend. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 09:16:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DGIr0011378 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:16:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DFpdD021108 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:15:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DFohI020961; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:15:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DFmhI020939 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:15:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-67.74.143.237.dial1.houston1.level3.net ([67.74.143.237] helo=diane) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uXU9-0004L7-00 for H-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 06:15:47 -0700 Message-ID: <004701c3721d$897e4e00$ed8f4a43@diane> From: "Diane Maynard" To: "H-costume" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:16:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] green X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h83DGIr0011378 Status: RO It's obvious, then, that the only thing a conscientious person can wear to a RenFaire is a gown made out of transparent vinyl. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Thank you for my first great laugh of the day. GOOD ONE !! Diane _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 09:17:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DHnr0011410 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:17:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DHPdD021198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:17:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DHOhI021724; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:17:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net (mtaw6.prodigy.net [64.164.98.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DHMhI021701 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:17:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-67-121-127-112.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.121.127.112]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h83DHChQ018751 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030903061401.00e50750@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 06:17:16 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats In-Reply-To: <3F55F0C3.40603@faucet.net> References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >My hypothesis is that the 1 circle/3 donut construction was not used at >all in the 16th century, that the pleated crown construction was used to >produce looks from 'flat cap' to 'soft cap', and that the pleated crown >hats were more commonly worn by men than women (of course, women had a lot >more choices in headgear). What about knitted construction? I know there were cap knitters, and I think that Rutt's book on the history of hand-knitting has either a whole knitted "flat cap" or identifiable parts of same. IIRC, these were felted, and, if so, would have looked very much like the ones in the Holbein pictures first mentioned. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 09:40:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DeOr0011842 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:40:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DdgdD023162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:39:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DdfhI002579; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:39:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DdchI002555 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:39:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-004-156.jps.net ([216.119.4.156] helo=pavilion) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uXrF-00025a-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 06:39:37 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c37221$1fcb24c0$9c0477d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <62.342c2821.2c86cb83@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] green Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:41:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Elizabeth???? The bastard daughter of the whore Anne Boleyn??? Of course she would wear green! ;-) Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] green > Well, since I've seen a beautiful portrait of Queen Elizabeth in a dark green > gown, I'd say that was an urban legend. > > Kathleen Norvell > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 09:53:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DrDr0012092 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:53:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DpKdD023924 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:51:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DpJhI008636; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:51:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DpGhI008615 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:51:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-004-156.jps.net ([216.119.4.156] helo=pavilion) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uY2V-0001DC-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 06:51:15 -0700 Message-ID: <001901c37222$c06b0700$9c0477d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 06:53:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] speaking of colours.......... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h83DrDr0012092 Status: RO I've been doing a bit of reading lately on the sealing of cloth and the use of lead seals and David Egan does mention that different colours were taxed at different rates. Unfortunately, no specific reference to any one document he bases this on that I can order and find which colours were taxed what. (wouldn't research be nice if it was this easy!!) I've quite a bit more available to read on this but I thought I would ask if anyone knows more about this. The renfair crowd does talk about purple being taxed higher, so someone might know at least something about this. It does appear it was not just a purple rule, but a taxation system that involved probably all colours. I'm most interested in England. Thanks, Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 09:54:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Dsgr0012124 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:54:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DrndD024048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:53:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DrmhI009922; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:53:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (cardassian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.45.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83DrkhI009874 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:53:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98451BE629 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:53:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F55F358.3080607@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:57:44 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] was pictures of my 16ct dress/ problems References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030901114057.00b10e38@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Kimiko Small wrote: > At 07:17 PM 9/1/2003 +0200, you wrote: > >> There is some wrinkeling at the front of the bodice. >> But I don't mind, untill now my bodices were alway's too small. > > > > Hi Deredere, > > I love how the dress is coming along. It looks wonderful, and I love > how you did the lacing up the side back. I also like the height of the > front of the dress. Some people may wonder why your bosom ISN'T > showing like two ripe melons on a platter, but I like it. I also like > what you are doing for the headpiece. Thanks! The bodice is from the pattern of Eleonora's gown in Patterns of fashion. I think this height of neckline is quite normal for 16th century gowns. With some exeptions of course... > > > To be honest, that wrinkling in the front is bothering me. I know how > that can go as my first nobles dress came out wrinkled in a similar > manner, and I didn't care because it was done and I could wear it. But > as I did, I got some snickers and "oh, dear" looks from other people > that have made me realize that I need to adjust my bodice into fitting > better, which I will do if I ever get back into that size (which I am > working on). Your right. > > > To help you from getting that "oh, dear" look, I hope I can provide a > little constructive criticism, if you don't mind. I would rather your > hard work pay off in a "Oh, WOW" look from envious people, like me. I don't mind. I even like it. Makes me think more about wat I am doing. > > > It looks like the wrinkling is really prominent at the lower bodice, > which makes me think it isn't a matter so much of how big around it > is, but maybe how long the bodice front is. It looks to be at or near > your armpits, at the top, so I wonder is it comfortable there or is it > digging in? Do you feel you have to tug it into place or is it sitting > in place? Are you willing to redo the bodice to shorten it a bit at > the front, because it looks like the side seams are the right length, > at least from the back. Do you have boning down the front? Is your > corset as long as the bodice? Maybe that is where the wrinkling at the > lower bodice is coming from. There are a few problems with this dress. I think the body isn't stif enough. I think that is one of the reasons wy it is wrinkeling. The bodice is not tight. The fabrick of the skirt is much too light. and the point of the bodice is to round. And the hiproll isn't in the right place. But right now I don't have time to do someting about the problems. It needs to be finished next week togheter with at least two other costumes... But I will look at it later. The straps are verry comfortable! They are placed more to the ends of my shoulder and this is also the reasons that they don't dig in. The corset and the bodice are made that you can't let your schoulders hang..(don't know the words to explain... It forses your schoulders backwards. Since the corset and the bodice are from originals I can say this is how it schould be. I made a bodice from a late 16th century and the straps work the same. Wich you can see here: http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Bodice/Bodice.html If you look at portraits it sometimes looks like the straps are almost off schoulder. > > > And if the bodice is fitting you a little big, then why the stress > wrinkles across the back? Is that back interlined any? Is it pulling > forward or how does it feel to you? I am not sure what may be causing > the wrinkles back there, except it may be a bit small in the back or > something I am not understanding. I think I will have to see wat happens if I am wearing my hoopskirt and not the bumproll.....Maby it helps. But I am making this dress to wear at an archery competition wich is on a small feald in a openair museum. If I would weare my hoopskirt I will take the place of at least two archers at the shootingline. Don't think they woold be happy with this. > > > I hope that helps you. I really love that you are doing this dress, > and can't wait to see it all come together for you. Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 10:16:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EGjr0012531 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:16:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EG1dD025460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:16:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EFx7o022877; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:15:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EFt7o022775 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:15:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from karen (CPE-24-31-232-172.kc.rr.com [24.31.232.172]) h83EFqrv028359 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:15:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "Talia" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:15:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <004701c3721d$897e4e00$ed8f4a43@diane> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Subject: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I need to make Victorian garments for myself and a gentleman. Never having ventured into "later" historical clothing, I've got no idea where to start. Do any of the big pattern producers make passable Victorian patterns? It's not for competition or anything; it's for a party, so I don't have to go all out this time 'round, but I do want us to look nice. TIA Talia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 10:23:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EN8r0012657 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:23:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EMRdD025969 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EMO7o027110; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:22:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.istop.com (dci.doncaster.on.ca [66.11.168.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EMA7o026931 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:22:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eggnog (skud.ott.istop.com [66.11.173.11]) by smtp.istop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1FB3694E for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from skud by eggnog with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19uYWN-0004Cc-00 for ; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:22:07 -0400 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wedding at Bermondsey In-Reply-To: References: <200309021738.h82HcEi6022931@net.indra.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:22:07 -0400 Message-Id: From: Kirrily Robert X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I keep seeing bits of it, but I haven't yet found a full picture. If I do I will definitely scan it and make it available. K. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 10:24:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EO7r0012677 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:24:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83ENRdD026052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:23:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83ENQ7o027749; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:23:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14001.mail.yahoo.com (web14001.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.92]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h83ENN7o027715 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:23:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030903142323.84692.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14001.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:23:23 BST Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:23:23 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] green To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030902213354.009f6bb0@pop3.lfchosting.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This conversation has gone around at least a couple of times. Renfaire legends like this are loosely based on sumptuary laws that varied from place to place. The 'Greensleeves' is most likely a quasi-Victorian interpretation of the prostitute legend. Several towns in Italy did dictate at various times special garb for prostitutes. Usually a red gown, red cap, etc. This has led to the simplified notion that all red dresses were worn by prostitutes. This is despite eveidence to the contrary. There is a lovely 16th century potrait in the San Diego Museum of Art. www.sdma.org that has a lovely green dress I would love to have some day if the right fabric comes along. The Christian Museum, Esztergom has a potrait of a 'Lady with a Hare' that is a lovely lady wearing a red dress. So I would say that neither red or green is exclusively the provence of prostitution. --- MaryAnn Jones wrote: > I had a conversation today about Renaissance faire > costuming with someone who new nothing about it. Her contribution to the conversation was that only prostitutes wore green in the English Elizabethan. > > Does anyone know if there is any substance to this > for any historical time > period? Has any color traditionally been associated > with prostitution > anywhere? > ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 10:37:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Ebbr0012920 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:37:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EardD027052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:36:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Eaq7o006571; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:36:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Eaj7o006459 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:36:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net ([10.116.0.122]) by scanmail2.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:33:55 -0700 Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122] by scanmail2.cableone.net (SMTPD32-7.04) id ABD2975E0106; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:33:54 -0700 Received: from kimathlon (24-117-44-29.cpe.cableone.net [24.117.44.29]) by mail.cableone.net with SMTP (MailShield v2.04 - WIN32 Jul 17 2001 17:12:42); Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:33:53 -0600 From: "Kim Baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:36:56 -0500 Message-ID: <000401c37228$d6073240$0201a8c0@kimathlon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: X-SMTP-HELO: kimathlon X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: kbaird@cableone.net X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: 24-117-44-29.cpe.cableone.net [24.117.44.29] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO You didn't say what date--Victorian runs for over 50 years, you know! Simplicity has some patterns that are usable for Dickens-period, some Civil War that aren't too bad. If you need later than that, you'll have to look at the little independent companies. Laughing Moon is a good one. http://www.lafnmoon.com/patterns.html Kim -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Talia Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:15 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help I need to make Victorian garments for myself and a gentleman. Never having ventured into "later" historical clothing, I've got no idea where to start. Do any of the big pattern producers make passable Victorian patterns? It's not for competition or anything; it's for a party, so I don't have to go all out this time 'round, but I do want us to look nice. TIA Talia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 10:38:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Ecfr0012942 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:38:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EWrdD026756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:32:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EWq7o003901; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:32:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EWn7o003866 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:32:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.9/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h83EWmIf011142 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.196.196] (tnt-1-4.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.196]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EWbX4011016 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005001c371af$42a45fb0$63c1adcb@michaela> References: <20030902183734.X66462-100000@shell.siscom.net> <005001c371af$42a45fb0$63c1adcb@michaela> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:51:23 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] French dress 1496-1498 corset or not Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 12:06 PM +1200 9/3/03, michaela wrote: > > If you're a bit more sturdily built than the lissom lady in the picture, >> I'd suggest using rope stiffening or perhaps multiple layers of canvas in >> the undergown to get the flat look you're aiming for. > >And check out the Privy Accounts of .. well they are on the richard III >group's website (US not UK group) There are accounts of fabric for gowns, >kirtles and bokeham lining (full lining in some cases, so I'm thinking it's >not as stiff as out buckram) and canvas in only enough for a bodice. They >have lists of fabric for kirtles, linings and canvas for them too:) "Buckram" is one of those words that has changed drastically in meaning. The range of applications it had in the medieval period indicates a very fine cloth of silk, cotton, or linen. Check the OED for more detail. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 10:53:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Ercr0013252 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:53:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EotdD028026 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:50:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Eor7o016159; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:50:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Eoo7o016113 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:50:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.9/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h83EooIf006441 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.196.196] (tnt-1-4.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.196]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83EojX4006376 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F55F0C3.40603@faucet.net> References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> <3F55F0C3.40603@faucet.net> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:44:21 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 8:46 AM -0500 9/3/03, Melanie Schuessler wrote: >Sarafina Sinclair wrote: > >>My theory is that the completely flat, 3 donut + 1 complete circle of >>fabric, cut and construction method of making "tudor flat caps" is not a hat >>style that was worn by women of any social class in England in the 16th >>century. > >Ok. > >>I hadn't gone so far as to figure out where the pattern came from. Reverse >>engineering is just as plausible as any other explanation. What is lacking >>in all these descriptions of how to make the cap is the evidence supporting >>the cut and construction; no extant garments are referred to, no >>portraits/paintings/woodcuts/etc are shown. It is asserted, however, that >>both men and women wore them. > >Right, but (at the risk of repeating myself) because there is no >evidence for this construction, and because there IS evidence for >the pleated style, and because you can get the flat cap look with a >pleated crown, and because it wastes fabric, and because it >basically makes the hat harder than it needs to be to construct, I >think that the 1 circle/3 donuts cut is historically incorrect. > >If this is true, your hypothesis is based on a false premise. > >My hypothesis is that the 1 circle/3 donut construction was not used >at all in the 16th century, that the pleated crown construction was >used to produce looks from 'flat cap' to 'soft cap', and that the >pleated crown hats were more commonly worn by men than women (of >course, women had a lot more choices in headgear). It sounds more like Sarafina's hypothesis simply doesn't go far enough -- she hypothesizes that women didn't wear this type of hat, and you hypothesize that _nobody_ wore this type of hat. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 11:07:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83F7Mr0013532 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:07:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83F6cdD029441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:06:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83F6aTb027854; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:06:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h83F6YTb027765 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:06:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OvRAkKNFaOiMLHvnaAlzMy4=">; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:06:00 PDT Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id H86NVHMB; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:06:00 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 07:26:08 -0700 Message-ID: <20030903.080459.1592.0.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,6-9,11-12,14,16,18-20 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley Subject: [h-cost] green X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO All giggling aside, I wonder if Greensleeves isn't a reference to May Day festivities, when wearing green was considered quite the traditional thing to do. The French chanson 'Ce Moys de May' is a May day song about a girl who has a lovely new green dress to wear, so she can go out into the fields and have her boyfriend rip it off of her. ;) Arlys On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:07:53 +1200 "michaela" writes: > > I had a conversation today about Renaissance faire costuming with > someone who new nothing about it. Her contribution to the conversation > was that only prostitutes wore green in the English Elizabethan. I know > that I have heard that the term greensleeves referred to prostitutes because > of the grass stains, but I had never heard this theory about green > before. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 11:12:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FCqr0013637 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:12:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FBbdD029910 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:11:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FBaTb001778; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:11:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FBYTb001731 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:11:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from karen (CPE-24-31-232-172.kc.rr.com [24.31.232.172]) h83FBV2a008017 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:11:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "Talia" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:10:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <000401c37228$d6073240$0201a8c0@kimathlon> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Late Victorian -- turn of the century stuff. T. > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Kim Baird > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:37 AM > To: 'Historical Costume' > Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help > > > You didn't say what date--Victorian runs for over 50 years, you know! > > Simplicity has some patterns that are usable for Dickens-period, some > Civil War that aren't too bad. If you need later than that, you'll have > to look at the little independent companies. Laughing Moon is a good > one. > http://www.lafnmoon.com/patterns.html > > Kim > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > On Behalf Of Talia > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:15 AM > To: Historical Costume > Subject: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help > > I need to make Victorian garments for myself and a gentleman. Never > having > ventured into "later" historical clothing, I've got no idea where to > start. > Do any of the big pattern producers make passable Victorian patterns? > It's > not for competition or anything; it's for a party, so I don't have to go > all > out this time 'round, but I do want us to look nice. > > TIA > Talia > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 11:37:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FbCr0014151 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:37:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FaLdD002164 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:36:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FaKTb020787; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:36:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FaITb020766 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:36:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from user-38lc1mv.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.6.223] helo=[209.86.250.56]) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uZg9-00021c-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:36:17 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:36:31 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: lilinah@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [h-cost] green Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO From: "michaela" wrote: >lol! And someone just mentioned that you should never wear red to a >Renaissance fair for the exact same reason;) > >I pointed out a few examples of QEI wearing red;) And a few other notable >upper class type peoples;) Yeah, Ren Fairs... sigh. Such a source of misunderstood misinformation and bad costuming habits. Red is a problem for actors at fairs. Since a fair is in part historical, uh, well, not quite re-creation, but at least historical rec-reation, and it is in very large measure a theatrical production, there are some costuming rules for actors that many people don't understand - including said actors. Bright red is generally not worn by actors because it is such a visually attention drawing color and The Queen should be the focus of attention. We can all find multiple examples of people, men and women, wearing red in 16th century art. For theatrical reasons, actors who want to wear red are generally steered toward dark muted reds. One exception i can think of is Sir Robert Dudley, since his portrait in a red leather doublet is well known and distinctive - and he is unlikely to be mistaken for Elizabeth. Several of us wanted to start a French guild. Guilds tend to have distinctive looks, so their members are identifiable, and based on art we wanted to have many of the women in red, since red cloth appears in much 16th c. French courtly art and red cloth was an important French trade product. But we were nixed for the above mentioned theatrical reasons. As for green: I've heard "green skirt" used as an epithet for loose women. But there's nothing wrong with wearing green at a Ren Fair, and no rules against it that i've heard. Just make sure that a wearer of green is well armed with true historical information and can stand up to some ribbing from ill-informed actors and vendors. When i was in a "middle class" guild in Northern California, for years I wore a medium green skirt and bodice, with dark green guarding on the skirt and matching dark green "brocade" forepart, sleeve lining, and front piece on my bodice, and no one suggested anything rude to me. Note that I also wore my clothing modestly, no T**s On A Platter look, no exposed shoulders, sleeves always attached to my bodice and worn closed in the morning when it was cool and in parades, both coif and hat at all times, etc. Presentation is part of it. If i had bare shoulders, loose hair, and "two bald headed babies" in my bodice, i'm sure i'd have heard something. Anahita _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 11:52:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Fqor0014458 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:52:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FpidD003545 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:51:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FpgTb003394; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:51:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.uvm.edu (badger.uvm.edu [132.198.101.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FpbTb003290 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:51:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uvm.edu (ip104036.uvm.edu [132.198.104.36]) by smtp.uvm.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FpZFa009285 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:51:36 -0400 Message-ID: <3F560E02.2000509@uvm.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:51:30 -0400 From: Hope Greeenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com References: <200309031124.h83BOddt006990@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200309031124.h83BOddt006990@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 544 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >>heard that the term greensleeves referred to prostitutes because of >>the grass stains, lol! And someone just mentioned that you should never wear red to a Renaissance fair for the exact same reason;) ...and then there was the Renn fair where I became a Jewish prostitute with leprosy. I wore a gown that had rather large yellow silk sleeves. I was called a prostitute because "during the Renaissance all prostitutes wore yellow sleeves." Then another person said "see, she's a Jew because they had to wear yellow." But the best one was the guy who told his girlfriend "see that woman with the yellow sleeves? She probably doesn't even know that only lepers wore yellow and they were supposed to carry bells to worn people off. Maybe we should tell her so she won't continue to embarrass herself." Gotta love these ideas! And here I just thought I was wearing a perfectly respectable gown based on an early 16th cent. Lorenzo Lotto painting of Mary and St. Catherine! - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 11:54:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Fsrr0014499 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:54:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Fs1dD003747 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:54:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Fs0Tb005428; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:54:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lsmtp.okstate.edu (lsmtp.okstate.edu [139.78.100.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FruTb005366 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:53:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from osu-ns01.cis.okstate.edu by lsmtp.okstate.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00C79461@lsmtp.okstate.edu>; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:53:56 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.12 February 13, 2003 From: Christina L Biles Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:53:55 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on osu-ns01/Okstate(Release 6.0.2CF1|June 9, 2003) at 09/03/2003 10:53:56 AM, Serialize complete at 09/03/2003 10:53:56 AM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 545 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Heather Rose Jones said: >>>It sounds more like Sarafina's hypothesis simply doesn't go far enough -- she hypothesizes that women didn't wear this type of hat, and you hypothesize that _nobody_ wore this type of hat. Well, except that we have knitted examples for certain in that exact shape. There's an example in Rutt of one (as Katya mentioned), and 2 others in Flury-Lemburg. (Actually, I haven't checked - I'm not sure if the hat in Rutt is different from the hats in F-L.) It's more of a question as to whether or not they were ever made out of fabric. And, of course, whether they were worn by women. Flury-Lemberg, Mechthild. (1988). Textile conservation and research : a documentation of the textile department on the occasion of the twentieth anniversary of the Abegg Foundation / Mechthild Flury-Lemberg. Bern : Abegg-Stiftung Bern. Rutt, Richard. History of hand knitting My personal hypothesis is that they were worn by women in about the 1540s, but not thereafter. It looks to me like crowns start rising in the 1550s and keep going up. -Christina _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 11:56:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Fu6r0014527 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:56:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Ft0dD003866 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:55:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FswTb006317; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:54:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FsrTb006231 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:54:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip167.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.167]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F376A8FD for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:51:25 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:54:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] green Message-ID: <3F55AC4A.32238.319B2458@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <5.2.1.1.2.20030902213354.009f6bb0@pop3.lfchosting.com> References: <200309011801.h81I0qPY012380@net.indra.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I had a conversation today about Renaissance faire costuming with > someone who new nothing about it. Her contribution to the > conversation was that only prostitutes wore green in the English > Elizabethan. I know that I have heard that the term greensleeves > referred to prostitutes because of the grass stains, but I had never > heard this theory about green before. It's best to ignore this theory. It's usually confined pretty much to dramatic presentations from the period. Keep in mind that at least some of the "poking fun at colors" done in dramas was because the color was so popular with the people in the audience and were colors they would have been wearing at the time. Kind of like a comedian poking fun at the type of clothing worn (especially all the "polyester leisure suits" which were common in the 70s.) If you look at colors in paintings, you find green all over the place on "good" women. And in the inventories of Queen Elizabeth there are several > Does anyone know if there is any substance to this for any historical > time period? Has any color traditionally been associated with > prostitution anywhere? You can probably find a ton of stuff on this in the archives of h- costume. Heaven only knows we seem to end up talking about it frequently. Shoot, the combination of green and white for clothing in Elizabethan drama meant "virtuous youth". A far cry from prostitition! >From Linthicum in discussing color symbolism (using the early 16th C poet Fulvio Pellegrino Morato's work): pure green=hope willow-green=willingness to die yellow-green=desperation and using a different author (Late 16th C Giovanni Rinaldo): green=happiness yellow-green=wan hope and still another (Mid 16th C Gerard Legh): green=joy sanguine with green="as lieve be hated as loved" and another (late 16th C Sir John Ferne when discussing the "ages of man"): green="lusty green youth" In general: green had many meanings in Elizabethan England from pure joy to lechery. But green itself was not used to specifically denote a courtesan or prostitute. However, the most common color which seems to get associated with prostitution is actually yellow. Information on these are usually taken from laws and statutes. Other colors and other things have been the association depending on the laws of the place: red dresses, special hoods, special patches (similar to the ones placed on Jewish people in Nazi Germany), a specific type of striped fabric. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 11:57:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FvEr0014549 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:57:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FtQdD003918 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:55:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FtObq006752; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:55:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83FssTb006245 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:54:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip167.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.167]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D586A97F for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:51:27 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:54:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] green & colors in clothing Message-ID: <3F55AC4A.8705.319B2274@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F55E36E.9030104@thibault.org> References: <009601c3720b$9fd0e4e0$63c1adcb@michaela> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > And any color of blue is only for servants, and purple only for > royalty, and, and, and.... > > It's obvious, then, that the only thing a conscientious person can > wear to a RenFaire is a gown made out of transparent vinyl. NOOOO. It's plastic, and therefore can't be worn. I guess you'll just have to go naked! I think that if someone is saying that green wasn't worn, then we have to object, since that's not true. However, if a particular Renn Faire decides that they want to have colors specific to certain roles to make it easier for the general public to parse it out (ie. for dramatic reasons as opposed to authenticity reasons) that's their call. Then I can see them saying "We want our Royals to wear only white or purple. No one else can, so as not to confuse others. Servants will all be dressed in blue. We'll put the ladies of questionable repute in green and red. Widows will be in black. Yellow only on girls who appear to be less than 13 years old. Everyone else can wear brown, grey or fabric which would look like it was undyed fresh off the sheep." Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:05:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83G5Gr0014713 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:05:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83G4HdD004864 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:04:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83G4Gbq014772; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:04:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83G4Dbq014635 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:04:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from reddawn.net (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90DB0425C9 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:04:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <3F5610C0.1080903@reddawn.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:03:12 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030612 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Talia wrote: > Late Victorian -- turn of the century stuff. > I'm working on a similar project and haven't found anything from the Big 3 that works really well. There is a Butterick pattern for men that has a very passable morning coat and two vests. It's more or less correct, but it's not evening wear. There is a companion dress for women (gold dress on the pattern cover) that I don't think is correct at the neckline. It looks more like 1850 than 1890. Simplicity has an 1880's dress in an American style, with evening and day versions, which is not bad. I think the sleeves should be longer on the day version. I think it also skimps on the bustle. The 'Patterns of Fashion' volume for that period has women's evening dresses, but no men's wear. 'The Cut of Men's Clothes' has men's diagrams, but no instructions. What I did was get '59 Authentic Turn of the Century Patterns' and start working from that. Sort of. I am doing a major pattern-bash on one of the Civil War dresses, using pieces from 59 Patterns and a skirt from Patterns of Fashion. But I'm making a street dress, not evening wear. There are a few pieces of men's clothing in the book, unfortunately not formal. However, for the most part men's formal/evening clothing hasn't changed in the past 110 years, so if you can find him a tux and wingtip shirt he's pretty good. I am keeping a dress diary: http://www.reddawn.net/costume/diary.htm Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:06:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83G6Ar0014744 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:06:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83G56dD004952 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:05:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83G55bq015461; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:05:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r07.mx.aol.com (imo-r07.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83G4wbq015297 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:04:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from IceGirlNIN@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.113.284055bc (3842) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:04:47 -0400 (EDT) From: IceGirlNIN@aol.com Message-ID: <113.284055bc.2c876b1f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:04:47 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] green & colors in clothing To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/3/2003 12:00:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, kat@grendal.rain.com writes: NOOOO. It's plastic, and therefore can't be worn. I guess you'll just have to go naked! I think that if someone is saying that green wasn't worn, then we have to object, since that's not true. Oh no! But I wanted to wear my green brocade Elizabethan to Renfaire next summer (it was just too hot when I went this summer, yuck)! They'll think I'm a prostitute AND a leper, since the "brocade" bit is sort of yellowy cream Or maybe I'm Jewish too? Oh dear, maybe I'd best make myself a nice brown burlap bag... I can't go naked! I'm too pale, my skin will burn even with sunblock! eeeek! Christine _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:14:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GE0r0014897 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:14:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GBxdD005719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:11:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GBvbq021164; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:11:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h83GBsbq021122 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:11:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 1197 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2003 16:11:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ) (209.142.2.50) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 16:11:54 -0000 Received: from 162.119.64.111 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com) by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53631.162.119.64.111.1062605514.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help From: To: In-Reply-To: References: <000401c37228$d6073240$0201a8c0@kimathlon> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Late Victorian -- turn of the century stuff. > > T. > I remember Laughing Moon having some patterns for turn-of-the-century women's stuff. I am not sure about men's though.... Diana _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:14:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GElr0014912 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:14:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GDhdD006028 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:13:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GDhbq022701; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:13:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from janus.directcon.net (janus.directcon.net [206.170.184.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GDdbq022650 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:13:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dnyeaqvf (net15sp225.directcon.net [209.79.209.225]) by janus.directcon.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h83GGnv09825; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:16:50 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030903091223.00b154d0@pop.directcon.net> X-Sender: margospatterns@pop.directcon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:12:23 -0700 To: Historical Costume , "Historical Costume" From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking for Margo In-Reply-To: <004001c37153$f2b7ec70$260110ac@TEENALAPTOP> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030829162429.026c80d0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO replied At 09:13 AM 09/02/2003 -0400, Beteena Paradise wrote: >Please excuse this email! > >If Margo Anderson could email me privately, I would greatly appreciate it. >Thanks! > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > "One Tough Costumer" www.margospatterns.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:15:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GFcr0014931 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:15:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GEcdD006229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:14:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GEabq023504; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:14:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.183]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h83GEVbq023442 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:14:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-64-175-43-132.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@64.175.43.132 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 16:14:30 -0000 Message-ID: <01ee01c37236$748e2920$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:14:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Talia, For turn of the century, check out Past Patterns (www.pastpatterns.com) -- their patterns are well made, and they have a number of late 19th century patterns. This is a nice late 1890's blouse and skirt: http://www.pastpatterns.com/207.html Truly Victorian patterns are also well made -- here's their 1890's patterns: http://trulyvictorian.netfirms.com/90cat.html Good luck, and let us know if you have more questions! - Kendra http://demode.tweedlebop.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:18:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GIwr0014995 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:18:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GH9dD006555 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:17:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GH8bq025655; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:17:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.188]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h83GH4bq025595 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:17:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-64-175-43-132.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@64.175.43.132 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 16:16:07 -0000 Message-ID: <01f901c37236$ae617990$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200309021738.h82HcEi6022931@net.indra.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] wedding at Bermondsey Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:16:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO All I've been able to find are details. Here's what I have bookmarked: http://www.columbia.edu/itc/barnard/theater/kirkland/3136/Renaissance%20Gall ery/pages/1569.1.htm http://www.columbia.edu/itc/barnard/theater/kirkland/3136/Renaissance%20Gall ery/pages/1569.2.htm - Kendra http://demode.tweedlebop.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:21:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GLPr0015042 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:21:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GKadD006903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:20:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GKZbq028678; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:20:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GKVbq028530 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:20:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a225.in-tch.com [66.62.107.25]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h83G0P707069 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:00:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F56154B.A31A359D@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:22:35 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] speaking of colours.......... References: <001901c37222$c06b0700$9c0477d8@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It (purple reference) might not be an import/export tax, though. --sue Lisa Sinervo wrote: > > I've been doing a bit of reading lately on the sealing of cloth and the use of lead seals and David Egan does mention that different colours were taxed at different rates. Unfortunately, no specific reference to any one document he bases this on that I can order and find which colours were taxed what. (wouldn't research be nice if it was this easy!!) I've quite a bit more available to read on this but I thought I would ask if anyone knows more about this. > > The renfair crowd does talk about purple being taxed higher, so someone might know at least something about this. It does appear it was not just a purple rule, but a taxation system that involved probably all colours. I'm most interested in England. > > Thanks, > > Lisa Sinervo > www.ThrednedleStrete.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:29:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GTUr0015130 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:29:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GQqdD007540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:26:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GQobq004325; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:26:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GQibq004217 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:26:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip147.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.147]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECD16DFD0 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:26:42 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:26:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [h-cost] 16th C hats, was: Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 545 Message-ID: <3F55B3D1.17874.31B88930@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Well, except that we have knitted examples for certain in that exact > shape. There's an example in Rutt of one (as Katya mentioned), and 2 > others in Flury-Lemburg. (Actually, I haven't checked - I'm not sure > if the hat in Rutt is different from the hats in F-L.) It's more of > a question as to whether or not they were ever made out of fabric. > And, of course, whether they were worn by women. We know more about those caps that are knitted than just seeing a couple in museums or modern books such as Rutt. They were called "Statute Caps" based on an English statute of 1571 (repealed in 1597) which stated that all above the age of six years except the nobility and other persons of degree, should on Sabbath-days and holy-days (which were about every other day in period compared to now), wear caps of wool, manufactured in England. It was done in part to encourage the knitters industry that Elizabeth was trying to foster. Of course, like most sumptuary laws, people more often ignored it than stuck to it. But it had one effect: suddenly this style was a lot *less* popular with everyone. > My personal hypothesis is that they were worn by women in about the > 1540s, but not thereafter. It looks to me like crowns start rising > in the 1550s and keep going up. >From what I've seen, while hats for both men and women seem to get higher crowns after the 1550s, the styles coexisted (for both men and women) until the statute was passed. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:45:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Gjur0015587 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:45:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GixdD009134 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:44:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Giubq020175; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:44:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Giqbq020111 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:44:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.78.219]) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uakW-0002au-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 09:44:52 -0700 Received: from [207.217.78.201] by EarthlinkWAM via HTTP; Wed Sep 03 09:44:52 PDT 2003 Message-ID: <3427802.1062607492078.JavaMail.nobody@dewey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:44:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Christine Krebs-Bonder To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Web Access Mail version 3.0 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Simplicity and McCalls both now have later Victorian era patterns, circa 1870s and 1880s. They appear to give a reasonably accurate silhouette but the yardage requirements are not for the fainthearted and poor of pocketbook. Christine Krebs-Bonder Dayton, OH -------Original Message------- From: Kim Baird Sent: 09/03/03 10:36 AM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help > > You didn't say what date--Victorian runs for over 50 years, you know! Simplicity has some patterns that are usable for Dickens-period, some Civil War that aren't too bad. If you need later than that, you'll have to look at the little independent companies. Laughing Moon is a good one. http://www.lafnmoon.com/patterns.html Kim -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Talia Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:15 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help I need to make Victorian garments for myself and a gentleman. Never having ventured into "later" historical clothing, I've got no idea where to start. Do any of the big pattern producers make passable Victorian patterns? It's not for competition or anything; it's for a party, so I don't have to go all out this time 'round, but I do want us to look nice. TIA Talia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:48:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GmBr0015639 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:48:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GlDdD009363 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:47:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GlBbq022319; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:47:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.uvm.edu (badger.uvm.edu [132.198.101.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Gkwbq022135 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:46:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uvm.edu (ip104036.uvm.edu [132.198.104.36]) by smtp.uvm.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GkwFa022336 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:46:58 -0400 Message-ID: <3F561AFE.6040607@uvm.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:46:54 -0400 From: Hope Greeenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com References: <200309031124.h83BOddt006990@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200309031124.h83BOddt006990@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] re: 16th century women's hats X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > From: kat@grendal.rain.com > I believe that halo bonnet is actually what they were called in the > period. I think they got the name for the way they usually had an > ostrich feather curled around the brim. Ah, that one. OK. Just wanted to be sure. This is an interesting topic! There seems to be the hat that morphed from from the Henry VII style: (examples at: http://tudorhistory.org/henry7/gallery.html) and also similar to that worn by Erasmus, William Warham, the Godsalve father, Sir Thomas Elyot and others by Holbein: http://www.artchive.com/artchive/H/holbein/erasmus.jpg.html http://www.artchive.com/artchive/H/holbein/sir_thomas_godsalve_and_his_son_john.jpg.html http://www.artchive.com/artchive/H/holbein/holbein_william_warham.jpg.html http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/h/holbein/hans_y/2drawing/1543/2elyot2.jpg which seems somewhat analagous to the female versions (as in, felted and shaped?) as worn by Margaret Giggs (http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/holb5.jpg), the "Unknown Woman" (http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/1532woman.jpg) and Mrs. Pemberton (http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/pemberton.jpg). Then the caps with wider brims, and shallower crowns, numerous examples at: http://tudorhistory.org/henry8/gallery2.html (particularly interesting are the coin/cameo images) which seem to have some versions with very flat crowns and others with higher or gathered crowns, but which still don't address the question of whether or not women wore the brimmed hat! Hmmm.... - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:48:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GmCr0015642 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:48:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GlTdD009389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:47:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GlSbq022595; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:47:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GlDbq022268 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:47:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AAA23F50072; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:45:22 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AA9F4200A4; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:45:19 -0500 Message-ID: <008901c3723b$6131dac0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:49:44 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-RBL-Warning: OSRELAY: Please stop using relays.osirusoft.com X-RBL-Warning: WEIGHT5: Weight of 5 reaches or exceeds the limit of 5. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. Subject: [h-cost] Off Topic X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Several of h-costumers adopted stuffed animals to be given to the hospital for children with terminal diseases for my son, Patrick's Eagle Scout project. Yesterday, we received final confirmation that Patrick was approved to be an Eagle Scout. We are having his Eagle Scout ceremony on Sept. 14. If anyone would like to attend the ceremony or would just like an invitation, please email me off-list at penny@costumegallery.com . I will send you one in the mail. The ceremony is in Chesterfield County, VA, a suburb of Richmond. We are so proud of Patrick. He is the first of our five sons to achieve Eagle Scout. Only 3% of Boy Scouts earn the rank of Eagle Scout. The highest award in scouting. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:50:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Goir0015691 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:50:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GnvdD009668 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:49:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Gnubq024721; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:49:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Gnqbq024584 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:49:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200309031649.h83Gnqbq024584@net.indra.com> Received: from mtiwebc18 (mtiwebc18.worldnet.att.net[204.127.135.57]) by mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <2003090316494611100mre26e>; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:49:46 +0000 Received: from [63.240.154.24] by mtiwebc18; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:49:46 +0000 From: ladysarafina@att.net To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:49:46 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Aug 25 2003) X-Authenticated-Sender: aHN3YXNoaW5ndG9uQGF0dC5uZXQ= cc: jenrsmall@yahoo.com Subject: [h-cost] Re: women's hats X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This all got started because I was making hats to merchant at Pennsic. I looked up how to make a flat cap online and made both styles (with and without a pleated crown). It got me to thinking because I've seen more than one person at an event with the 3+1 construction of hat. I wanted to include some documentation with the hats, so I started looking for portraits, etc to back up what I had created and couldn't find any. Just because there is no evidence (so far) to support the 3+1 construction doesn't mean that it isn't period. It just means that we haven't found it yet. That being said, I wanted people to know that it isn't a documentable construction (yet), because most of the instructional sites that I have seen put it forth like it is a proven fact (referring to the 3+1 construction). This is the basis of my hypothesis. I focused on women because I am researching women's hats. As someone said earlier, it may be that no one wore this hat because it never existed. In the best of all worlds, I will find a hat makers manual from the 16th century and find the truth. I brought my questions to the list because I know that this group of people is very knowledgeable and would challenge me to figure out if I was barking up the wrong tree. For example, I had never considered knitted hats and now that is something I am going to look into. I am writing this paper for the sheer pleasure of increasing my knowledge about women's hats in 16th century England. I am fully aware that my hypothesis may be waqy off base, but I needed to start somewhere in order to figure out what I am looking for. Clearly, this is a work in progress. By the time it's all said and done, I could end up writing a book once I get done researching all the possibilities that I have been given here. Another thought that came to mind after I'd shut down my computer is that the 3+1 construction might work just fine for the halo bonnet and it just may be that people aren't wearing their hats in the same way as depicted in the portraits. Unfortunately, it just isn't clearly depicted enough to be sure (even in Holbein's very detailed sketches). With all that being said, please continue to give me your opinions and ideas about what you think on this matter. You can reply to me privately if you want (ladysarafina@att.net) if people are getting sick of this issue. Thanks! Harlie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 12:52:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Gqjr0015737 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:52:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83GppdD009825 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:51:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Gpobq026515; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:51:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Gowbq025787 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:50:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from karen (CPE-24-31-232-172.kc.rr.com [24.31.232.172]) h83Gos2a014532 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:50:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "Talia" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:50:10 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <01ee01c37236$748e2920$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh wow...nice! Thanks so much for that last link...I'll be able to find something I like there. T. > > Truly Victorian patterns are also well made -- here's their > 1890's patterns: > http://trulyvictorian.netfirms.com/90cat.html > > Good luck, and let us know if you have more questions! > > - Kendra _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 13:28:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83HStr0016423 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:28:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83HRwdD013167 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:27:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83HRoYS029472; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:27:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web80106.mail.yahoo.com (web80106.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.169.79]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h83HRkYS029402 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:27:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030903172745.53891.qmail@web80106.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.122.24.10] by web80106.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:27:45 PDT Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:27:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jennifer Fleury To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200309031451.h83EpB7p016394@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Re: green=prostitution X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I had heard somewhere that "greensleeves" was written by Henry VIII to Anne Boleyn and that the greensleeves referred to her well-known loose morals. Reading the lyrics, it certainly seems it could be written by him for her, but the whole song is lamenting the fact that she wasn't "giving it up". Perhaps green was her personal color? Chalk it up to more faire nonsense, I guess. There are portraits of nobles in nearly all colors and text references to even more. Anne Russell wore purple velvet, purple taffeta and purple gauze to her wedding, so no color seems to have been exclusive by the mid 1500's. I love this list. After 30 years of renaissance faire, people are finally starting to question all the rules handed to us when we start in favor of historical accuracy. What a prettier place the world is going to be!! Jennifer Fleury Guild Master 2003-2004 The Guild of St. Augustine www.guildofstaugustine.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 13:53:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Hr3r0016520 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:53:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83HptdD015246 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:51:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83HppYS020489; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:51:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.primushost.com (smtp3.primushost.com [209.58.220.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83HpkYT020350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:51:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell3.shore.net [207.244.124.103] by smtp3.primushost.com with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim) id 19ubmx-0005Wg-8S; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:51:27 -0400 Received: from vintage by shell3.shore.net with local (Exim) for id 19ubns-0002p5-00; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:52:24 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:52:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Katy Bishop To: Talia Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: Historical Costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Past Patterns has a lot of good 19th Century patterns http://www.pastpatterns.com/ I have a number of pattern companies on my links pages as well http://www.vintagevictorian.com (click on vintage links) Katy On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Talia wrote: >Late Victorian -- turn of the century stuff. > >T. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On >> Behalf Of Kim Baird >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:37 AM >> To: 'Historical Costume' >> Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help >> >> >> You didn't say what date--Victorian runs for over 50 years, you know! >> >> Simplicity has some patterns that are usable for Dickens-period, some >> Civil War that aren't too bad. If you need later than that, you'll have >> to look at the little independent companies. Laughing Moon is a good >> one. >> http://www.lafnmoon.com/patterns.html >> >> Kim >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] >> On Behalf Of Talia >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:15 AM >> To: Historical Costume >> Subject: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help >> >> I need to make Victorian garments for myself and a gentleman. Never >> having >> ventured into "later" historical clothing, I've got no idea where to >> start. >> Do any of the big pattern producers make passable Victorian patterns? >> It's >> not for competition or anything; it's for a party, so I don't have to go >> all >> out this time 'round, but I do want us to look nice. >> >> TIA >> Talia >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 14:54:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Isar0017648 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:54:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83IqfdD020717 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:52:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83IqcPq013935; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:52:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83IqYPq013859 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:52:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 66-44-56-126.s126.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com ([66.44.56.126] helo=fred) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 3.35 #4) id 19uck4-0003Ol-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:52:33 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20030903141637.01668c80@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: mmescher@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:52:37 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: mmescher@erols.com In-Reply-To: <200309031801.h83I1JPs028717@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [h-cost] greensleeves X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >Message: 6 >Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:27:45 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jennifer Fleury >Subject: [h-cost] Re: green=prostitution >To: h-costume@indra.com >Message-ID: <20030903172745.53891.qmail@web80106.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >I had heard somewhere that "greensleeves" was written by Henry VIII to Anne >Boleyn and that the greensleeves referred to her well-known loose morals. >Reading the lyrics, it certainly seems it could be written by him for her, >but the whole song is lamenting the fact that she wasn't "giving it up". >Perhaps green was her personal color? Chalk it up to more faire nonsense, I >guess. There are portraits of nobles in nearly all colors and text >references to even more. Anne Russell wore purple velvet, purple taffeta >and purple gauze to her wedding, so no color seems to have been exclusive by >the mid 1500's. I've been lurking on the list for awhile. My interests are in the mid-nineteenth century period and I specialize in social and material culture of the time. I found some information on the ballad "Greensleeves" and thought that it may be of help. The link is http://flashpages.prodigy.net/marticia/the_ballad.htm Another site suggested that it was the song, "Green Grows the Holly" that Henry wrote, rather than "Greensleeves." http://www.englishhistory.net/tudor/prihenry.html I also checked in a _A Dictionary of Superstitions_ by Iona Opie and Moira Tatem and it indicated that green was considered an unlucky color, especially for brides and babies. Quite a few sources were quoted but the earliest one was 1793. I also went through some of my dyeing books and did not see anything about the signifiance of wearing green. There are a number of sites that discuss color symbolism but none indicated that green was associated with prostitution. Virginia Mescher mmescher@erols.com Visit Ragged Soldier Sutlery and Vintage Volumes at: http://www.raggedsoldier.com http://www.vintagevolumes.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 15:21:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83JL6r0018118 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:21:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83JHfdD022704 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:17:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83JHdgl005528; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:17:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83JHagn005475 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:17:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (bb136.cvip.net [129.8.204.136]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKN00HFCK9AJ7@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:27:38 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: green=prostitution In-reply-to: <20030903172745.53891.qmail@web80106.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030903112448.00afe710@127.0.0.1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Antivirus: avast!, Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested References: <200309031451.h83EpB7p016394@net.indra.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:27 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote: >I love this list. After 30 years of renaissance faire, people are finally >starting to question all the rules handed to us when we start in favor of >historical accuracy. What a prettier place the world is going to be!! Jennifer, I so agree. The English portraits are so filled with color, and I am tired of only having dark somber black as the color of choice amongst the nobility. We've had enough years of it, I think. Thank goodness for people like you and your guild, that fill our nobility with bright, wonderful, and appropriate color; not to mention beautiful outfits. And on a similar note, my hubby is willing to wear a bright red cape with his black and red outfit! Wheee!! Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 15:21:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83JLMr0018127 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:21:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83JI5dD022754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:18:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83JI5gl005912; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:18:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83JHagl005475 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:17:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (bb136.cvip.net [129.8.204.136]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HKN00HFCK9AJ7@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:21:15 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] green In-reply-to: X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030903111912.026ceb70@127.0.0.1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Antivirus: avast!, Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Not-Tested X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 08:36 AM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote: >"two bald headed babies" in my bodice, i'm sure i'd have heard something. > >Anahita Now that gave me a wonderful laugh... I had never heard that one before. Thanks! And I am still going to make and wear a burgundy red dress, cause our QE wears black, purple and gold with a big huge crown that screams QUEEN! 'Sides, I am tired of wearing blue. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 16:33:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83KXIr0019375 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:33:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83KWXdD029015 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:32:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83KWMxj009737; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:32:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h83KWIxj009679 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:32:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 35390 invoked by uid 1005); 3 Sep 2003 20:32:05 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.069506 secs); 03 Sep 2003 20:32:05 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.069506 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 3 Sep 2003 20:32:05 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:32:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: h-costume@indra.com Message-ID: <20030903163051.W86904-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear list, does anyone know of a good 1870s bustle pattern available? I've seen a few, but am far enough from my preferred costume timeframe that I don't know which would be the best for an 1870s evening gown. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Drea _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 16:42:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83KgSr0019563 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:42:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83KfIdD029947 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:41:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83KfGxj017848; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:41:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m07.mx.aol.com (imo-m07.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.162]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83KfCxj017686 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:41:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ConstanceFairfax@cs.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.134.249b2fc7 (15886) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.com (mow-d18.webmail.aol.com [205.188.139.134]) by air-id08.mx.aol.com (v95.12) with ESMTP id MAILINID81-3e0e3f5651df260; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:41:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:41:03 -0400 From: ConstanceFairfax@cs.com To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <464F4C67.4C99EEFC.349D0FDF@cs.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 204.148.73.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] green X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I believe there's no evidence of "Greensleeves" until about 1580..., at which point it became very popular. Given that Henry's court music and/or compositions are numerous and well documented. I would bet that the nice, but sentimental, story about Henry and Anne B. started in the nineteenth century. Constance > >Message: 6 >Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:27:45 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jennifer Fleury >Subject: [h-cost] Re: green=prostitution >To: h-costume@indra.com >Message-ID: <20030903172745.53891.qmail@web80106.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >I had heard somewhere that "greensleeves" was written by Henry VIII to Anne Boleyn and that the greensleeves referred to her well-known loose morals.  Reading the lyrics, it certainly seems it could be written by him for her, but the whole song is lamenting the fact that she wasn't "giving it up".  Perhaps green was her personal color?  Chalk it up to more faire nonsense, I guess.  There are portraits of nobles in nearly all colors and text references to even more.  Anne Russell wore purple velvet, purple taffeta and purple gauze to her wedding, so no color seems to have been exclusive by the mid 1500's.   > >I love this list.  After 30 years of renaissance faire, people are finally starting to question all the rules handed to us when we start in favor of historical accuracy.  What a prettier place the world is going to be!! > > >Jennifer Fleury >Guild Master 2003-2004 >The Guild of St. Augustine >www.guildofstaugustine.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 16:45:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Kj6r0019611 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:45:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Ki0dD000303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:44:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Khxxj020135; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:43:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (h-66-134-203-2.SNVACAID.covad.net [66.134.203.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Khuxj020083 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:43:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (mac.misc.com [192.168.254.109]) by misc.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h83KnFjp016802 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:49:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3F565181.2010903@misc.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:39:29 -0700 From: Theresa Eacker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wedding at Bermondsey References: <200309021738.h82HcEi6022931@net.indra.com> <01f901c37236$ae617990$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO To the Liste- Were ya'll looking for the whole thang??: http://www.peartree12.freeserve.co.uk/gallery/hoefnagel_bermondsey.html Hope this halps, Theresa Eacker Kendra Van Cleave wrote: > All I've been able to find are details. Here's what I have bookmarked: > > http://www.columbia.edu/itc/barnard/theater/kirkland/3136/Renaissance%20Gall > ery/pages/1569.1.htm > http://www.columbia.edu/itc/barnard/theater/kirkland/3136/Renaissance%20Gall > ery/pages/1569.2.htm > > - Kendra > http://demode.tweedlebop.com > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 16:53:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83KrHr0019774 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:53:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Kl9dD000583 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:47:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Kl8xj022824; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:47:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from janus.directcon.net (janus.directcon.net [206.170.184.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Kl2xj022736 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:47:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dnyeaqvf (r14a54.directcon.net [207.215.72.54]) by janus.directcon.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h83KoDv05305; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:50:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030903134547.0111fda0@pop.directcon.net> X-Sender: margospatterns@pop.directcon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:45:47 -0700 To: Historical Costume , "h-costume" From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: [h-cost] Off Topic In-Reply-To: <008901c3723b$6131dac0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Congratulations to your son, Penny! You mist be so proud! margo "One Tough Costumer" www.margospatterns.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 17:04:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83L4wr0019990 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:04:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83L40dD002741 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83L3xYd007616; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:03:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83L3tYe007551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:03:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dandy.net (acty1035.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.242.35]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h83L5dKe010272 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:05:40 -0400 Message-ID: <3F5655B3.1010201@dandy.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:57:23 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> <3F55F0C3.40603@faucet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, All. I have seen illos of women wearing similar types of headwear, but nothing that could be definitely defined as a flat cap. Since the illo is in B&W (22 Godly and Faythfull Christians pg 69 illo 61 Ashelfords Visual History), the caps worn by three women could well be some sort of other thing, and they are quite different from the illos of men's flat caps in the same picture. Since the discussion has morphed from whether or not women wore flat caps to a discussion of their construction, it seems like there is no physical evidence for the 4 piece version (two brims, and a top made of a solid top and a donut shaped bottom.). The only illo that I know of that shows what might be a seam at the join of pieces is the engraving of William Bullein, a Physician, dated 1562 (previous page to the page cited above in Ashelford). His cap shows a line at about the point there would be a seam if the cap were constructed in the conjectured incorrect manner but, of course, one engraving doesn't prove anything. It might be an artists convention to illustrate the curve of the fabric at that point, as does the illo of the "Faythfull Christian" on the next page (the fellow in the center, in front of the soldier and behind the man in the high-crowned (felt?) hat. (oops, that's two illos then...) Hope this doesn't muddy the water too much more... Cheers, Mike T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 17:41:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Lfjr0020661 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:41:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Lc6dD007647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:38:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Lc3Tu008196; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:38:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jabberwock.wonderland.com (jabberwock.wonderland.com [205.179.178.102]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83LbwTu008127 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:38:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from wonderland.com (adsl-63-202-187-77.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.187.77]) by jabberwock.wonderland.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 916852F91A for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:37:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Heather Meadows To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I highly recommend the Truly Victorian patterns. On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 08:10 AM, Talia wrote: > Late Victorian -- turn of the century stuff. > > T. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >> [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On >> Behalf Of Kim Baird >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:37 AM >> To: 'Historical Costume' >> Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help >> >> >> You didn't say what date--Victorian runs for over 50 years, you know! >> >> Simplicity has some patterns that are usable for Dickens-period, some >> Civil War that aren't too bad. If you need later than that, you'll >> have >> to look at the little independent companies. Laughing Moon is a good >> one. >> http://www.lafnmoon.com/patterns.html >> >> Kim >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] >> On Behalf Of Talia >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:15 AM >> To: Historical Costume >> Subject: [h-cost] Victorian clothing help >> >> I need to make Victorian garments for myself and a gentleman. Never >> having >> ventured into "later" historical clothing, I've got no idea where to >> start. >> Do any of the big pattern producers make passable Victorian patterns? >> It's >> not for competition or anything; it's for a party, so I don't have to >> go >> all >> out this time 'round, but I do want us to look nice. >> >> TIA >> Talia >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 17:51:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Lpqr0020849 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:51:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Lo3dD009469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:50:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Lo0Tu018655; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:50:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83LnuTu018611 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:49:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19ufVj-0007EO-0W; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 22:49:55 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:39:48 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: women's hats References: <200309031649.h83Gnqbq024584@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200309031649.h83Gnqbq024584@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ladysarafina@att.net wrote >This all got started because I was making hats to merchant at Pennsic. I >looked up how to make a flat cap online and made both styles (with and >without a pleated crown). It got me to thinking because I've seen more than >one person at an event with the 3+1 construction of hat. I wanted to include >some documentation with the hats, so I started looking for portraits, etc to >back up what I had created and couldn't find any. > >Another thought that came to mind after I'd shut down my computer is that the >3+1 construction might work just fine for the halo bonnet and it just may be >that people aren't wearing their hats in the same way as depicted in the >portraits. Unfortunately, it just isn't clearly depicted enough to be sure >(even in Holbein's very detailed sketches). > >With all that being said, please continue to give me your opinions and ideas >about what you think on this matter. You can reply to me privately if you >want (ladysarafina@att.net) if people are getting sick of this issue. > >Thanks! > >Harlie I certainly think there's a possibility that the halo bonnet and the flat cap and the soft cap could have the same construction. And it also looks a lot like a continuation of the earlier (Henry VII's favourite portrait) cap with the turned up brim. It depends just where you pin your jewels, how you slide your ostrich feather between brim and crown, whether you wear it tilted forward or tilted back.... Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 18:06:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M69r0021101 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:06:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M5GdD011757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:05:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M5CUt001874; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:05:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M56Ut001785 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:05:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip147.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.147]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A166AA95 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:05:04 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:05:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: green=prostitution Message-ID: <3F56031F.15845.32EE5318@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030903172745.53891.qmail@web80106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200309031451.h83EpB7p016394@net.indra.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I had heard somewhere that "greensleeves" was written by Henry VIII to > Anne Boleyn and that the greensleeves referred to her well-known loose > morals. How odd that it would. While Henry VIII may have written it, somehow I doubt that Anne Boleyn would have been wooed by someone saying she had "well known loose morals." Especially since she, unlike her sister (who had also been H8's paramour) was more likely to have had loose morals. She actually seemed to have been "saving herself for marriage" compared to others in the court. People later called her a whore because of H8 taking up with her when he was married (in the eyes of the populace) to Katherine. But when they were courting, she wasn't considered to have had loose morals. >Reading the lyrics, it certainly seems it could be written by > him for her, but the whole song is lamenting the fact that she wasn't > "giving it up". Perhaps green was her personal color? While H8 did lament that she wasn't "giving it up" (which drove him nuts), I have never seen green linked to Anne. I've seen white linked to her (because of her badge: a white falcon). White was certainly used as "her color" in some of the known revels in her honor, not green. They also used white and red roses (in part because of H8's heritage), but again, I've never seen green associated with her. There is only one portrait (as opposed to a drawing, which doesn't help with the color issue anyway) which is experts still feel might be a picture of her, and she's wearing a black dress in it. > I love this list. After 30 years of renaissance faire, people are > finally starting to question all the rules handed to us when we start > in favor of historical accuracy. What a prettier place the world is > going to be!! One can only hope. However, chances are that they will stick with the colors they've been doing for theatrical reasons. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 18:06:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M6Rr0021110 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:06:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M5fdD011837 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:05:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M5bUt002232; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:05:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M58Ut001820 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:05:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip147.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.147]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8A76AEEC for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:05:06 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:05:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: 16th century women's hats Message-ID: <3F56031E.21900.32EE51C0@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F561AFE.6040607@uvm.edu> References: <200309031124.h83BOddt006990@net.indra.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, dear. You would continue to talk about one of my favorite subjects in the entire world. ;) > Ah, that one. OK. Just wanted to be sure. > This is an interesting topic! > There seems to be the hat that morphed from from the Henry VII style: > (examples at: http://tudorhistory.org/henry7/gallery.html) and also > similar to that worn by Erasmus, William Warham, the Godsalve father, > Sir Thomas Elyot and others by Holbein: Actually, those are not morphed from or morphed into the halo. They coexisted with the halo and seem to be variations on the theme of "bonnet" (which is what they called them.) They are all variations of the court bonnet. Some of them had brims, some didn't. Some with brims had multiple parts to the brim, some were all in one piece. Some were made of felt (like the following that you mentioned: http://www.artchive.com/artchive/H/holbein/holbein_william_warham.jpg http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/h/holbein/hans_y/2drawing/1543/2elyot2.j pg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/1532woman.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/pemberton.jpg) {I love this last one, of Mrs. Pemberton, because it clearly shows the bodice "pins" on the opposite side of the bodice from the Jane Seymour painting. This is actually a miniature at the V&A. I had, before seeing the real one, thought that it had just been reversed in the books, because everyone said "the pins or whatever are always down the L side of the bodice." But after seeing the miniature, I realized that it could be on the R side, which means it was probably on *both* sides and they really were pins, not just a French knot sewing the thing down. This makes much more sense when you think of how stomachers and placards in later periods were held down. Why sew it along the edge like that when you can make it more adjustable by pinning it down both sides. But then, most modern people really can't believe that people might have pins on their bodices that way.} But then, some of the court bonnets were made of fur while others were made of silks (of various sorts) and velvets. > which seems somewhat analagous to the female versions (as in, > felted and shaped?) as worn by Margaret Giggs > (http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/holb5.jpg), This one is clearly a lettice cap. This was a very popular hat in the mid-16th C. In the unabridged version of _The Lisle Letters_ it is mentioned several times. In fact, one time one of of Lisle's daughters ordered so many at one time that I wondered if they just wore out that fast or if she was planning on giving them to friends as gifts. (I'd have to look up the exact number she ordered, but I remember it being something like an entire dozen.) This was made of a fur called lettice (from which it got it's name) which was similar to a "coney" or "rabbit". I've found one example of multicolored fur on Mary I's maid/fool in one of the paintings of the family of H8. That one has parts made with both white and brown fur. It is peaked "like a pope's hat" and is actually pretty easy to make. You may remember one in a non-perod one made in this shape from the movie "A Knight's Tale". The main female wore one throughout a good portion of the movie. The most famous painting with one of these is Holbein's painting of a woman with a squirrel and a starling (which was probably the oil version of Mother Jak/Margaret Griggs): http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi- bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/work?workNumber=NG6540 I strongly suspect that the non-knitted flat caps were most likely made of felt. This could be fashioned without needing to be seamed like the "circle and 3 donut" versions and end up like most of the ones you see that have construction which can't be done with flat fabric (much like French beret's are still made). The easiest way to think of them is a beret with a brim. ;) Actually, the most comprehensive explanation of all the various 16th century hats is in Cunnington and Cunnington's _Handbook of English Costume in the 16th Century_. While you can get the information from other sources, including trying to parse it all out on your own, this seems to have it all in one place and in an understandable format. CW Cunnington also had access to wills & inventories (as well as other written sources), paintings, drawings, and the like that most of us will never get to see (unless we go to all the various homes and churches thoughout England to see them all the way he did.) (Or even at all, since some of them were probably destroyed during WWII.) I wish that he could have used paintings rather than line drawings, he at least documents where each of the line drawings came from so that you can find most the originals if you try. But Ms. Lucas' drawings are of archeological quality (especially compared to the ones she did under Mrs. Cunnington's direction after CW died.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 18:08:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M8Hr0021143 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:08:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M61dD011897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:06:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M5vUt002564; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:05:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83M5AUt001840 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:05:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip147.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.147]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2BEA6AA95 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:05:08 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:05:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: women's hats Message-ID: <3F56031F.22168.32EE54CE@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200309031649.h83Gnqbq024584@net.indra.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Another thought that came to mind after I'd shut down my computer is > that the 3+1 construction might work just fine for the halo bonnet and > it just may be that people aren't wearing their hats in the same way > as depicted in the portraits. Unfortunately, it just isn't clearly > depicted enough to be sure (even in Holbein's very detailed sketches). The halo bonnet is the least likely to be made that way, because the brim wouldn't be a circle. It has to be just part of a circle to angle up in the way it does. And in some of the drawings by Holbein it's pretty clear that the crown is gathered or pleated in. It's not just the angle that they are worn, because there are so many examples of them worn at various angles and seen from various viewpoints. (An example of this is a painting of Francois I and his court where the guys are all wearing the halo bonnet or the similar one with a smaller, more upright feather. Heaven only knows where I found the picture and I can't find it on the web. I have a slide in my collection of it. Better record keeping would have helped but it's too late at this point.) However, some of the flat caps (or, as they were known in England at that time "city caps") could have been made that way. Unfortunately, I don't believe that short of having a hatter's manual from the time we'll know for sure (since none of the caps themselves have survived and they are different than the knitted "statute caps.") Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 18:38:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83McQr0021710 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:38:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83MbVdD016244 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:37:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83MbSUt028176; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:37:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h83MbJUt027900 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:37:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OpGSoqZYqXHyp4pfmJt/qX0=">; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:36:26 PDT Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id H87GNACC; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:36:26 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:30:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] greensleeves Message-ID: <20030903.153546.900.3.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-11 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Not that I have access to it at the moment, but has anyone considered checking the Musica Britanica? There's also a volume known as "King Henry's Book" from period which included Henry's music as well as that of some of his favorite composers (Wm. Cornysh, for one). And it's also possible that the song may not have been originally titled "Greensleeves," but came to be known that way over time. 'Green Grows the Holly" is a totally different piece of music. Would there have been any sort of sumputary ruling regarding green? Arlys, one of the local music geeks ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 18:39:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Mdur0021739 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:39:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83MckdD016459 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:38:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83MchUt029524; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:38:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83McaUu029396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:38:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h83Mch6s020668 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:38:43 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h83Mchl7020666 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:38:43 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: green=prostitution Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:38:42 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200309031451.h83EpB7p016394@net.indra.com> <3F56031F.15845.32EE5318@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F56031F.15845.32EE5318@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309031838.42895.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h83McaUu029396 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 03 September 2003 06:05 pm, kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > I had heard somewhere that "greensleeves" was written by Henry VIII to > > Anne Boleyn and that the greensleeves referred to her well-known loose > > morals. My understanding is that the tune to which Greensleeves is commonly sung pre-dates Henry by several hundred years. I don't know of a specific attribution for the lyrics. > > How odd that it would. While Henry VIII may have written it, somehow > I doubt that Anne Boleyn would have been wooed by someone saying she > had "well known loose morals." Especially since she, unlike her > sister (who had also been H8's paramour) was more likely to have had > loose morals. She actually seemed to have been "saving herself for > marriage" compared to others in the court. [snip] That was certainly the tack she took with Henry. If she had not, likely he would have enjoyed her charms without going through the agony of seeking a legal divorce from Catherine. > >Reading the lyrics, it certainly seems it could be written by > > him for her, but the whole song is lamenting the fact that she wasn't > > "giving it up". Perhaps green was her personal color? > > While H8 did lament that she wasn't "giving it up" (which drove him > nuts), I have never seen green linked to Anne. I've seen white linked > to her (because of her badge: a white falcon). White was certainly > used as "her color" in some of the known revels in her honor, not > green. They also used white and red roses (in part because of H8's > heritage), but again, I've never seen green associated with her. Nor I. The only color reference relating to Anne that I've heard of is an anecdote claiming that she wore yellow the day Catherine of Aragon died, and that when she was criticized for it, she claimed that yellow was the color of mourning in France. Wish I could remember where that one came from. > There is only one portrait (as opposed to a drawing, which doesn't > help with the color issue anyway) which is experts still feel might > be a picture of her, and she's wearing a black dress in it. If it's the one I'm thinking of, the color is closer to a very dark brown, with lighter brown fur on the sleeves. I seem to remember having seen a reproduction of a minature of Anne also. -- Cathy Raymond “No man is rich enough to buy back his past.†Oscar Wilde _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 18:56:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Muxr0022019 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:56:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83MuIdD019386 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:56:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83MuAQZ014119; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:56:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Mu5QZ014029 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:56:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-171.75.245.137.dial1.saintlouis1.level3.net ([171.75.245.137] helo=Dan) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19ugXk-0006wQ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:56:04 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c3726e$e9e3df20$89f54bab@Dan> From: "Genie" To: "Historical Costume" References: <01aa01c371c9$fd10aec0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some News Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:58:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Congratulations, this is so cool. Also, Congratulations on you son becoming an Eagle Scout. Genie H. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 10:18 PM Subject: [h-cost] Some News > This past week, I was on my airplane trip back from New Orleans to > Cincinnati to > Richmond, I was feeling like a celebrity. I was working on tracing > embroidery patterns from 1850s-1920s. It seemed like everyone who passed > asked what I was doing and then it lead to what my business was. Then they > wanted my business card with our website address. I was sitting in a sports > bar in Cincinnati for three and a half hours killing time. Half of the > people were watching me, the other half a football game. People on the > airplanes were watching too. I felt like Mr. Drawing Board on Captain > Kangaroo. Good thing my teacher mode kicked in... learned then not to be > bothered people are watching and asking questions. Who would have thought > so many people would be interested in old embroidery patterns!!!! > > The second set of news... kinda slipped my mind. Back in June a reporter > from the Associated Press (AP) interviewed me about the history of pants in > America. With all the crazy things going on, I forgot to watch for the > article in the newspapers. W-e-l-l the article started running on Aug. 11. > The way the AP works is that the article can be run in any of the Associated > Press subscribed newspapers/TV news shows any time within a six month > period. In > August, I found that the article ran in the following newspapers, New York > Times, Boston Globe, Palm Beach, and Charleston, South Carolina. > > Here are some links to the article. The interview with me is in the last > three paragraphs: > > http://www.boston.com/yourlife/fashion/articles/2003/08/11/fashion_liberating_pants/ > > http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/living/article/0,1651,TCP_1043_2208216,00.html > > http://www.charleston.net/stories/082203/fas_22pants.shtml > > For those who recall this reporter... this is the same one who interviewed > me last year about 1940s fashions and put it in an article. > > Penny Ladnier > Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom > www.costumegallery.com > www.costumeclassroom.com > > > [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 18:57:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Mvdr0022031 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:57:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83MuudD019473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:56:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83MutQZ014712; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:56:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83MuRQZ014253 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:56:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fenris.net (12-246-237-231.client.attbi.com[12.246.237.231](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003090322562101400699nge>; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:56:21 +0000 Message-ID: <3F567196.7030101@fenris.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:56:22 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] green & colors in clothing References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030902213354.009f6bb0@pop3.lfchosting.com> <009601c3720b$9fd0e4e0$63c1adcb@michaela> <3F55E36E.9030104@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <3F55E36E.9030104@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cynthia Virtue wrote: > michaela wrote: > >>> heard that the term greensleeves referred to prostitutes because of the >>> grass stains, but I had never heard this theory about green before. >> >> lol! And someone just mentioned that you should never wear red to a >> Renaissance fair for the exact same reason;) > > > And any color of blue is only for servants, and purple only for > royalty, and, and, and.... > > It's obvious, then, that the only thing a conscientious person can > wear to a RenFaire is a gown made out of transparent vinyl. > Ack! could you warn a person! I do believe I have to wipe the coffee off my monitor. liz young _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 19:06:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83N6ur0022197 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:06:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83N68dD020394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:06:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83N67QZ020288; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector2.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector2.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.149]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83N63QZ020177 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:06:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion ([213.78.160.174])3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AIH52964; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:05:53 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <020701c37270$85efe160$81694ed5@pavilion> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030903163051.W86904-100000@shell.siscom.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:10:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have a load I've done myself what type are you after ? Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 19:32:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NWNr0022696 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:32:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NVVdD023933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:31:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NVTQZ007885; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:31:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from incoming.SIGENETICS.com ([209.172.110.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NVRQZ007830 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:31:28 -0600 (MDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:31:21 -0700 Message-ID: <445E782ED9213F40922903173696C884777768@incoming.sigenetics.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 548 Thread-Index: AcNyaCgxrbX5H/EXSvWuBHaqq/KZ4wACworQ From: "Sunny Buchler" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h83NVRQZ007830 Subject: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I used the Truly Victorian bustle pattern, and am very pleased with it (it's TV101 Petticoat with Wire Bustle) You can get it at http://trulyvictorian.netfirms.com/undies.html -sunny > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:32:11 -0400 (EDT) > From: Drea Leed > Subject: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? > To: h-costume@indra.com > Message-ID: <20030903163051.W86904-100000@shell.siscom.net> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Dear list, > > does anyone know of a good 1870s bustle pattern available? > I've seen a > few, but am far enough from my preferred costume timeframe > that I don't > know which would be the best for an 1870s evening gown. Any > help would > be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Drea _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 19:33:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NXor0022729 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:33:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NWqdD024150 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:32:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NWnQZ008749; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:32:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NWkQZ008716 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:32:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip147.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.147]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE376DDE5 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:32:44 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 16:32:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: green=prostitution Message-ID: <3F5617AC.14859.333E9982@localhost> Priority: normal References: <3F56031F.15845.32EE5318@localhost> In-reply-to: <200309031838.42895.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > While H8 did lament that she wasn't "giving it up" (which drove him > > nuts), I have never seen green linked to Anne. I've seen white > > linked to her (because of her badge: a white falcon). White was > > certainly used as "her color" in some of the known revels in her > > honor, not green. They also used white and red roses (in part > > because of H8's heritage), but again, I've never seen green > > associated with her. > > Nor I. The only color reference relating to Anne that I've heard of > is an anecdote claiming that she wore yellow the day Catherine of > Aragon died, and that when she was criticized for it, she claimed > that yellow was the color of mourning in France. Wish I could > remember where that one came from. Most of the biographies of Anne Boleyn and H8 mention that they wore yellow. I don't remember any comments about it being a mourning color. > If it's the one I'm thinking of, the color is closer to a very dark > brown, with lighter brown fur on the sleeves. You're right. The Holbein painting of her at Hever Castle is in brown velvet sleeves. I had forgotten about that painting. I was remembering the one from the Nat'l Portrait Gallery in London. Still, not green. ;) > I seem to remember having seen a reproduction of a minature of Anne > also. The only miniature I've seen of her (one by Lucas Hornbolte) is now felt not to be her. It may be of her sister Mary Boleyn. For more information, you'd probably have to write to Roy Strong, who has done a lot of work in this area. There's a brief passage about it in his book _The English Renaissance Miniature_ but I've seen a longer article by him about that particular miniature somewhere else. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 19:46:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83Nk2r0023037 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:46:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NZPdD024520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:35:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NZPQZ010545; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:35:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h83NZNQZ010468 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:35:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AA4113E10022; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:33:21 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AA3E3EC0220; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:33:18 -0500 Message-ID: <004501c37274$6870c6a0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: <01aa01c371c9$fd10aec0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> <002701c3726e$e9e3df20$89f54bab@Dan> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some News Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:37:56 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you Margo and Genie! We picked up his award today at the Scout office and delivered some invitations to the ceremony. His pediatricians office is just around the corner from the shop, so we stopped in to give an invitation to them. The whole office was about in tears, they were so proud. We have been with these doctors through all our sons growing into young men. Frequently we forget to say thank you to our children's doctors and teachers. Patrick is hand delivering invitations to all of them and showing them his medals. As a former teacher, I can say, we always want to know how that former student turned out. That is the rewards of being a teacher. Patrick was a very sickly child when little with asthma... still has it. Then he had learning disabilities from lead poisoning in our house's paint. He has overcome a lot to earn such a high award. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 20:22:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840M4r0023763 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:22:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840LDdD000580 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:21:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840LBdx007630; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:21:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from colo2.internet-host.net (STARTER.INTERNET-HOST.NET [66.93.41.231] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840L7dx007608 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:21:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from SPHINX.grumpybadger.com [66.171.63.92] by colo2.internet-host.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.00) id A4535A700E4; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:16:19 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030903170212.05814c80@mail.grumpybadger.com> X-Sender: Ysoria@grumpybadger.com@mail.grumpybadger.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:13:11 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Ysoria de Brai Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats In-Reply-To: <3F5655B3.1010201@dandy.net> References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> <3F55F0C3.40603@faucet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Since the discussion has morphed from whether or not women wore flat > caps to a discussion of their construction, it seems like there is no > physical evidence for the 4 piece version (two brims, and a top made > of a solid top and a donut shaped bottom.). Is this the type of flat-cap that people are referring to? I was looking for something else and ran across it. It is amazing what you find when you stop looking. This hat appears to be constructed in a 4-piece version, with the top piece being a donut sewn to a circle. Portrait of Bruegel the Elder (1572) Antwerp http://www.usc.edu/schools/annenberg/asc/projects/comm544/library/images/008.html Not a woman wearing it, and not English, but to my eye it appears to have the aforementioned construction. - Cole _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 20:33:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840XMr0024011 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:33:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840WXdD001362 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:32:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840WWdx013540; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:32:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jabberwock.wonderland.com (jabberwock.wonderland.com [205.179.178.102]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840WUdx013498 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:32:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from wonderland.com (adsl-63-202-187-77.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.187.77]) by jabberwock.wonderland.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB572F92F for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:32:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Heather Meadows To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030903170212.05814c80@mail.grumpybadger.com> Message-Id: <43CC6318-DE6F-11D7-A9F6-00039369A97A@wonderland.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO wow. That does indeed look just like the ren-faire flat cap! On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 05:13 PM, Ysoria de Brai wrote: > > > >> Since the discussion has morphed from whether or not women wore flat >> caps to a discussion of their construction, it seems like there is no >> physical evidence for the 4 piece version (two brims, and a top made >> of a solid top and a donut shaped bottom.). > > > > Is this the type of flat-cap that people are referring to? I was > looking for something else and ran across it. It is amazing what you > find when you stop looking. This hat appears to be constructed in a > 4-piece version, with the top piece being a donut sewn to a circle. > > Portrait of Bruegel the Elder (1572) Antwerp > > http://www.usc.edu/schools/annenberg/asc/projects/comm544/library/ > images/008.html > > Not a woman wearing it, and not English, but to my eye it appears to > have the aforementioned construction. > > - Cole > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 20:53:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840rCr0024436 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:53:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840qQdD002158 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:52:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840qPdx022624; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:52:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840qLdx022589 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:52:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-28-235.o1.jps.net ([216.119.28.235] helo=pavilion) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uiMG-0004bm-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 17:52:21 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c3727f$19f05620$eb1c77d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> <3F55F0C3.40603@faucet.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030903170212.05814c80@mail.grumpybadger.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:54:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wow, that is a surprise. Not that I know anything about renaissance hats, but making that hat with two circles would waste a bit of fabric when one could make it pleated to the brim and achieve a very similar effect. I tend to see things when they are brought to my attention and then I see them everwhere, often long after the relevance to the conversation has passed. Thanks for posting that. Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ysoria de Brai" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats > > > > > Since the discussion has morphed from whether or not women wore flat > > caps to a discussion of their construction, it seems like there is no > > physical evidence for the 4 piece version (two brims, and a top made > > of a solid top and a donut shaped bottom.). > > > > Is this the type of flat-cap that people are referring to? I was looking > for something else and ran across it. It is amazing what you find when you > stop looking. This hat appears to be constructed in a 4-piece version, > with the top piece being a donut sewn to a circle. > > Portrait of Bruegel the Elder (1572) Antwerp > > http://www.usc.edu/schools/annenberg/asc/projects/comm544/library/images/008 .html > > Not a woman wearing it, and not English, but to my eye it appears to have > the aforementioned construction. > > - Cole > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 20:54:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840sXr0024459 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:54:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840rbdD002218 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:53:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840radx023274; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:53:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h840rAe0022983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:53:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h840rH6s021117 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:53:17 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h840rHWo021115 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:53:17 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: green=prostitution Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:53:16 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <3F56031F.15845.32EE5318@localhost> <3F5617AC.14859.333E9982@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F5617AC.14859.333E9982@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309032053.16963.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h840rAe0022983 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 03 September 2003 07:32 pm, kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > > While H8 did lament that she wasn't "giving it up" (which drove him > > > nuts), I have never seen green linked to Anne. I've seen white > > > linked to her (because of her badge: a white falcon). White was > > > certainly used as "her color" in some of the known revels in her > > > honor, not green. They also used white and red roses (in part > > > because of H8's heritage), but again, I've never seen green > > > associated with her. > > > > Nor I. The only color reference relating to Anne that I've heard of > > is an anecdote claiming that she wore yellow the day Catherine of > > Aragon died, and that when she was criticized for it, she claimed > > that yellow was the color of mourning in France. Wish I could > > remember where that one came from. > > Most of the biographies of Anne Boleyn and H8 mention that they wore > yellow. I don't remember any comments about it being a mourning > color. The bio where I read this (claiming, I believe, to have gotten it from a primary source but I forget which), implied that Anne told an untruth when she claimed yellow to be a French mourning color. > > > If it's the one I'm thinking of, the color is closer to a very dark > > brown, with lighter brown fur on the sleeves. > > You're right. The Holbein painting of her at Hever Castle is in brown > velvet sleeves. I had forgotten about that painting. I was > remembering the one from the Nat'l Portrait Gallery in London. Still, > not green. ;) Very much not green. > > > I seem to remember having seen a reproduction of a minature of Anne > > also. > > The only miniature I've seen of her (one by Lucas Hornbolte) is now > felt not to be her. It may be of her sister Mary Boleyn. For more > information, you'd probably have to write to Roy Strong, who has done > a lot of work in this area. There's a brief passage about it in his > book _The English Renaissance Miniature_ but I've seen a longer > article by him about that particular miniature somewhere else. You may well be right. By chance, I saw the repro I have in mind just the other day (not in a book I own, unfortunately), and I noticed that the subject wore a necklace with a "B" pendant, though of course Mary Boleyn may have had such a necklace as well. -- Cathy Raymond “No man is rich enough to buy back his past.†Oscar Wilde _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 21:20:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841Khr0025029 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:20:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841K2dD003581 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:20:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841K0FO007046; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:20:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841JvFO006970 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:19:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.a9.47425a87 (4222) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:19:46 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:19:46 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Don't forget The Great Pattern Review Truly Victorian Personally, I like the blue plaid gown created with the 1873 Polonaise 401 and the 1870s underskirt 201. But for the 70s I love most those tight princess gowns. One of the great things about bustle is if you get your underpinnings and foundation garments right, [and by foundation garments I mean the shell of the bodice and skirt sans any trims or stuff] you can have fun fixing it up with poufs, gunches, bows, fringe, or all these things. I had a friend who had a real 1870s princess gown. It was Navy with a pail pinstripe. Is was a simple as can be, all cut in one from neck to hem. The back was in 4 pieces and the front in two with the usual double bust darts [I know...not strictly "princess"]. The V neck had some self fabric pleating that stood up in the back, the cuffs has some pleating and a tortured bow. The skirt was plain and not all that full, but just below the kneed was a horizontal swag of self fabric that went all the way around. This was tacked up to look like there was no piecing....like the dress was just really long and had been gunched up all the way around just bellow the knees. The hem had some of the same pleating as the bodice. That's it. It looked great....and was for a short, "Rubinesque" woman. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 21:23:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841N6r0025074 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:23:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841MBdD003665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:22:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841MAFO008279; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:22:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m03.mx.aol.com (imo-m03.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841M6FO008152 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:22:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.1de.ed22d88 (4222) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:21:59 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1de.ed22d88.2c87edb6@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:21:58 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/3/2003 9:20:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: > I had a friend who had a real 1870s princess gown. It was Navy with a pail > pinstripe. Is was a simple as can be, all cut in one from neck to hem. The > back > was in 4 pieces and the front in two with the usual double bust darts [I > know...not strictly "princess"]. The V neck had some self fabric pleating > that > stood up in the back, the cuffs has some pleating and a tortured bow. The > skirt > was plain and not all that full, but just below the kneed was a horizontal > swag > of self fabric that went all the way around. This was tacked up to look like > > there was no piecing....like the dress was just really long and had been > gunched up all the way around just bellow the knees. The hem had some of the > same > pleating as the bodice. That's it. > I'm sorry....I forgot to say in buttoned all the way down the front to the swag....with about 5/8" dark ornate buttons. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 21:25:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841PNr0025114 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:25:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841ONdD003812 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:24:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841ONFO009447; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:24:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from citrine.spiritone.com (citrine.spiritone.com [216.99.193.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841OKFP009436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:24:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by citrine.spiritone.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h841OKIJ011146 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:24:21 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "H-Costume" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:25:41 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Subject: [h-cost] Not the Bermondsey Pic after all X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Help! I'm looking for the picture where there are three middle class ladies in Tudor era garb (no, it's not the exemplar where one looks like, from the way she has her head swathed, she has a toothache). I remember them being dancers. They each have tall hats on, and a moderate Vee front bodice (pinned on stomacher over lacing?) I had it in June when I went to Germany, and now it has disappeared. I thought it was the wedding picture because I remember them being part of a larger picture. Regina Romsey/Wanda Pease Sit vis nobiscum. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 21:43:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841hdr0025615 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:43:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841gndD004618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:42:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841gmFO017740; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:42:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h841gjFO017720 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:42:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-28-235.o1.jps.net ([216.119.28.235] helo=pavilion) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uj92-0005FN-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 18:42:44 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c37286$23188720$eb1c77d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F56031F.15845.32EE5318@localhost><3F5617AC.14859.333E9982@localhost> <200309032053.16963.cathy@thyrsus.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:44:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [h-cost] yellow when she died was green=prostitution X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I remember reading from a biographer (Alison Weir???) that it was Henry who wore yellow when Catherine of Aragon died because it was a color of celebration. Lisa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 5:53 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: green=prostitution > On Wednesday 03 September 2003 07:32 pm, kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > > > While H8 did lament that she wasn't "giving it up" (which drove him > > > > nuts), I have never seen green linked to Anne. I've seen white > > > > linked to her (because of her badge: a white falcon). White was > > > > certainly used as "her color" in some of the known revels in her > > > > honor, not green. They also used white and red roses (in part > > > > because of H8's heritage), but again, I've never seen green > > > > associated with her. > > > > > > Nor I. The only color reference relating to Anne that I've heard of > > > is an anecdote claiming that she wore yellow the day Catherine of > > > Aragon died, and that when she was criticized for it, she claimed > > > that yellow was the color of mourning in France. Wish I could > > > remember where that one came from. > > > > Most of the biographies of Anne Boleyn and H8 mention that they wore > > yellow. I don't remember any comments about it being a mourning > > color. > > The bio where I read this (claiming, I believe, to have gotten it from a > primary source but I forget which), implied that Anne told an untruth when > she claimed yellow to be a French mourning color. > > > > > > > If it's the one I'm thinking of, the color is closer to a very dark > > > brown, with lighter brown fur on the sleeves. > > > > You're right. The Holbein painting of her at Hever Castle is in brown > > velvet sleeves. I had forgotten about that painting. I was > > remembering the one from the Nat'l Portrait Gallery in London. Still, > > not green. ;) > > Very much not green. > > > > > > > I seem to remember having seen a reproduction of a minature of Anne > > > also. > > > > The only miniature I've seen of her (one by Lucas Hornbolte) is now > > felt not to be her. It may be of her sister Mary Boleyn. For more > > information, you'd probably have to write to Roy Strong, who has done > > a lot of work in this area. There's a brief passage about it in his > > book _The English Renaissance Miniature_ but I've seen a longer > > article by him about that particular miniature somewhere else. > > You may well be right. By chance, I saw the repro I have in mind just the > other day (not in a book I own, unfortunately), and I noticed that the > subject wore a necklace with a "B" pendant, though of course Mary Boleyn may > have had such a necklace as well. > > > -- > Cathy Raymond > > “No man is rich enough to buy back his > past.†Oscar Wilde > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 22:20:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842Jxr0026836 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:19:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842IudD006527 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:18:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842Itml004864; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:18:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.185]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h842Iqml004844 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:18:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-64-175-43-132.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@64.175.43.132 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 2003 02:18:51 -0000 Message-ID: <01fb01c3728a$e1c20cb0$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030903163051.W86904-100000@shell.siscom.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:18:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I second Truly Victorian patterns, and I MORE than second the GBACG Great Pattern Review (which, by the way, anyone can contribute to! You don't have to be a Guild member). http://www.gbacg.org/Patterns/ - Kendra http://demode.tweedlebop.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 22:33:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842X8r0027161 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:33:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842WOdD007032 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:32:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842WNml011286; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:32:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842WKml011272 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:32:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-015scfairp0009.dialsprint.net ([63.183.144.9] helo=faucet.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19ujv1-0003ZP-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:32:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3F56B17E.9050809@faucet.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 22:29:02 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> <4.3.1.2.20030903061401.00e50750@mail.frys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > > What about knitted construction? I know there were cap knitters, and I > think that Rutt's book on the history of hand-knitting has either a > whole knitted "flat cap" or identifiable parts of same. IIRC, these > were felted, and, if so, would have looked very much like the ones in > the Holbein pictures first mentioned. There's another knitted/felted one in Textiler Hausrat by Jutta Zander-Seidel. It's one of the kind with a two-part brim that overlaps on each side. In fact, we just talked about these knitted hats fairly recently on this list, but I can't remember the subject line. I ignored this line of inquiry (sorry, Harlie) because the caps we were looking at in paintings were all so posh (i.e., covered in jewels and gold bits) that it was a little hard for me to imagine them being knit, but they could have been. Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 22:40:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842eXr0027309 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:40:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842djdD007376 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:39:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842dgml014637; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:39:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h842ddml014617 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:39:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-015scfairp0009.dialsprint.net ([63.183.144.9] helo=faucet.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uk26-00070y-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:39:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3F56B336.2060108@faucet.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 22:36:22 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> <3F55F0C3.40603@faucet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Heather Rose Jones wrote: > It sounds more like Sarafina's hypothesis simply doesn't go far enough > -- she hypothesizes that women didn't wear this type of hat, and you > hypothesize that _nobody_ wore this type of hat. Yes, though I'm intrigued by the Bullein picture that Mike cited and the engraving of Breughel that Cole posted. They could both be artistic convention ("here be a fold"), or there could have been an edgestitch done at the fold of a knitted cap, or they could be the 3+1 construction. kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > Unfortunately, > I don't believe that short of having a hatter's manual from the time > we'll know for sure (since none of the caps themselves have survived > and they are different than the knitted "statute caps.") Well, there is the velvet one in Patterns of Fashion that's pleated, but that's the only non-knitted one that I know of. Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 23:23:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h843NPr0028180 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:23:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h843MUdD009346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:22:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h843MTog003805; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:22:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h843MQog003790 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-031scfairp0148.dialsprint.net ([158.253.120.148] helo=faucet.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19ukhV-0006U8-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:22:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3F56BD3C.1030801@faucet.net> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 23:19:08 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] speaking of colours.......... References: <001901c37222$c06b0700$9c0477d8@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lisa Sinervo wrote: > I've been doing a bit of reading lately on the sealing of cloth and > the use of lead seals and David Egan does mention that different > colours were taxed at different rates. Unfortunately, no specific > reference to any one document he bases this on that I can order and > find which colours were taxed what. (wouldn't research be nice if it > was this easy!!) I've quite a bit more available to read on this but > I thought I would ask if anyone knows more about this. > > The renfair crowd does talk about purple being taxed higher, so > someone might know at least something about this. It does appear it > was not just a purple rule, but a taxation system that involved > probably all colours. I'm most interested in England. Try "The Rates of the London Custom House in 1550" by Joan Edwards and J. L. Nevinson from Costume, volume 4 (1970). There are quite a number of fabrics and some dyes listed for import, and few of the fabrics are listed by color. The ones that are make a distinction between the fabric that is in grain/crimson/purple and that which is not, so there is some basis for the "purple taxed higher" assertion. Here are the exceptions and the dyes--at least the ones I can identify: Brasell the C. pounde xxxiii.s.iiii.d. Brasel the pounde iiii.d. Damaske the yarde iiii.s. Damaske crymsyn or purple the yarde vi.s.viii.d. Graynes the hundreth pounde l.s. Grayne of Portyngle called rote the pounde xvi.d. Grayne of sevell the pounde xii.d. Grayne pouder the pounde ii.s. Gaules the hundreth pounde xiii.s.iiii.d. Mul madder the bale xx.s. Madder the bale l.s. Madder the C. pounde vi.s.viii.d. Orchel the laste xl.s. Orchell the pounde xiii.s.iiii.d. Rosset the pounde vi.d. Satten out of grayne the yarde v.s. Satten right crimisin in grayne or purple the yarde x.s. Satten counterfete crimsin ye yard vi.s.viii.d. Satten tinseld with gold the yarde xiii.s.iiii.d. Satten of bruges the yarde xx.d. Satten of bruges counterfete tynselde the yarde iii.s.iiii.d. Tarmaret the C. pounde xl.s. Velvet ryghte crymisyn in grayne the yarde xiii.s.iiii.d. Velvet of all collors out of grayne the yarde vii.s.vi.d. Woad of gascone the pype iii pound vi.s.viii.d. Woad of the Ile of Surrey teh ballet x.s. Woad of the Ile of Assorns the ballet x.s. Cheers, Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 3 23:50:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h843ohr0028818 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:50:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h843nmdD010869 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:49:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h843nlog016290; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:49:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h843niog016258 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:49:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.9/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h843nhkE017430 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.197.85] (tnt-1-149.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.197.85]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h843nIkW016899 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:28:57 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 545 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:53 AM -0500 9/3/03, Christina L Biles wrote: >Heather Rose Jones said: >>>>It sounds more like Sarafina's hypothesis simply doesn't go far >enough -- she hypothesizes that women didn't wear this type of hat, >and you hypothesize that _nobody_ wore this type of hat. > >Well, except that we have knitted examples for certain in that exact >shape. There's an example in Rutt of one (as Katya mentioned), and 2 >others in Flury-Lemburg. (Actually, I haven't checked - I'm not sure if >the hat in Rutt is different from the hats in F-L.) It's more of a >question as to whether or not they were ever made out of fabric. And, of >course, whether they were worn by women. The knitted ones were given an exception somewhere early in the thread -- I guess I was taking that as still assumed. Sorry. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 00:13:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844D6r0029271 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:13:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844BmdD011964 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:11:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844Bi6s026973; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:11:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.pacifier.net (smtp1.pacifier.net [64.255.237.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844Bd6s026938 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:11:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip12.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.12]) by smtp1.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87BF6FA22 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 21:11:37 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 21:11:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some News Message-ID: <3F565900.12045.343DC993@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <004501c37274$6870c6a0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Thank you Margo and Genie! We picked up his award today at the Scout > office and delivered some invitations to the ceremony. His > pediatricians office is just around the corner from the shop, so we > stopped in to give an invitation to them. The whole office was about > in tears, they were so proud. We have been with these doctors through > all our sons growing into young men. Frequently we forget to say thank > you to our children's doctors and teachers. Believe me, the doctors remember that sort of thing. I have letters, pictures they've drawn, photographs, cards and the like that were given to me by my patients and their parents going back to residency. In this day and age it's rare that a patient gets to stay with a doctor long enough to get to know them this well. Insurances and mobile lifestyles have put an end to the idea of continuity of care and good doctor/patient relationships. Sigh. > Patrick was a very sickly child when little with asthma... still has > it. Then he had learning disabilities from lead poisoning in our > house's paint. He has overcome a lot to earn such a high award. So, you had a first hand experience for why we shouldn't use medieval/renaissance recipes for white lead makeup to make our cheeks pale and soft when we're wearing our costumes. ;) (Obligatory costume content.) Congratulations! Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 00:13:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844D7r0029275 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:13:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844C8dD011998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:12:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844C86s027212; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:12:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt5.ihug.co.nz (grunt5.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.45]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844C46s027164 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:12:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p829-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.195.67] by grunt5.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19ulTV-0003rC-00; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 16:12:01 +1200 Message-ID: <009601c3729a$ab92f1d0$43c3adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1de.ed22d88.2c87edb6@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:11:51 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I had a friend who had a real 1870s princess gown. It was Navy with a pail > > pinstripe. Is was a simple as can be, all cut in one from neck to hem. The > > back > > was in 4 pieces and the front in two with the usual double bust darts [I > > know...not strictly "princess"]. No it is a true princess:) Just not Princess seamed;) Princess style dresses were from the 1860s and were cut in this construction. Princess seams for a similar style (simply waistless) came about much later:) Or rather the Princess seams to the armscye;) There are also panels shaped similarly to a princess panel but they don't go over the bust and there are still bust darts to shape. I'd look at Nora Waugh's Corset's and Crinolines. There are some nice contemporary quotes in the back half about what bustles should be used for what time. My favourite style it the ligotee (sorry no accents on this comp, can't figure out the quick keys either) or Cuirasse style from 1876 or so. The really tight dresses of around 1878-80 are sometimes extremely charming:) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 00:16:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844GXr0029350 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 00:16:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844F7dD012129 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:15:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844F56s028624; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:15:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from stanford.loosefoot.com (stanford.loosefoot.com [207.195.54.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h844F26s028595 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:15:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bernie.loosefoot.com (bernie.loosefoot.com [207.195.54.243]) by stanford.loosefoot.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CBDC01602A0 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:14:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 1577 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2003 04:14:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mabion.spublofe.com) (12.246.76.5) by bernie.loosefoot.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 2003 04:14:56 -0000 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030903211131.009f9990@pop3.lfchosting.com> X-Sender: mabse/spublofe.com@pop3.lfchosting.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 21:12:41 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: MaryAnn Jones In-Reply-To: <200309031801.h83I1JPs028717@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] on the subject of color X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 12:01 PM 9/3/2003 -0600, you wrote: >I love this list. After 30 years of renaissance faire, people are finally >starting to question all the rules handed to us when we start in favor of >historical accuracy. What a prettier place the world is going to be!! Not if I go naked!! thanks for the info on green... maryann _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 01:53:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h845r9r0031421 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:53:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h845qMdD015476 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:52:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h845qKv8006831; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:52:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h845qHv8006798 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:52:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host-66-81-241-24.rev.o1.com ([66.81.241.24]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19un2W-0002qQ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 01:52:16 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> References: <200309021356.h82Du33S023154@net.indra.com> <3F554754.4010506@faucet.net> <008001c371ce$d7fa1b80$e395f80c@attbi.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:22:15 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th century women's hats Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:52 PM -0500 9/2/03, Sarafina Sinclair wrote: >My theory is that the completely flat, 3 donut + 1 complete circle of >fabric, cut and construction method of making "tudor flat caps" is not a hat >style that was worn by women of any social class in England in the 16th >century. At 5:46 PM -0700 9/1/03, kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: >As to whether the crown was pleated or gathered into the brim, that's >a little more complicated. The Holbein drawing I'm thinking of is >definitely of that type. Most of the others, including for men (such >as the halo bonnet) did have the crown pleated in, albeit in such a >manner that it was soft and flat, not the high crowned types like you >see in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620 or the arch >brimmed hats like on Lady Kylson that has been discussed earlier. I can tell you that the two sources I've seen that analyze surviving examples of the _knitted_ version of these "flat caps" say that they are definitely _decreased_ into the brim and _not_ pleated or gathered. So they seem to be closer to the "donut" construction than the pleated woven-fabric hats you're describing. Of course, this may be a function of the construction technique -- it's easy to do smooth decreases in knitting and it's difficult and bulky to try to pleat or gather it. Also, knitting can shape the entire hat in one piece with no seams, which you obviously can't easily do with woven fabric. So this may not be at all relevant to the construction of woven-fabric examples. I'd also suggest shrinking/felting as another way to stiffen such a cap, providing it's made of wool. Though I have to admit that the one I've made and felted is definitely more ripply than flat. The costuming director of my guild also pointed out to me that if you cut woven fabric in ovals rather than circles for your head opening and outer shapes, the hat sits much flatter. If you cut circles, since most people's heads are oval, the hat will ripple on the head and tend to "dip" in front and back. I don't know whether either or both of these constructions is supported by the pictorial evidence. AFAIK both the surviving knitted ones are circular. -- _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 01:53:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h845rWr0031427 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:53:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h845qndD015495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h845qmv8007049; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h845qIv8006818 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:52:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host-66-81-241-24.rev.o1.com ([66.81.241.24]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19un2Y-0002qQ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 01:52:18 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <464F4C67.4C99EEFC.349D0FDF@cs.com> References: <464F4C67.4C99EEFC.349D0FDF@cs.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:41:38 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: [h-cost] Re: green X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've also heard (hearsay again) that QEI personally disliked wearing green and seldom did so. However another significance of green and white is that they are the colors of Tudor servants' livery. If you keep your eyes open you will occasionally see green and white striped or paneled tunics on servants in the backgrounds of pictures of Tudor royalty. (When James Stuart became king of England, the royal livery changed to red and gold, the Stuart livery colors, and has remained those colors ever since. James is also credited/blamed for being the first monarch of England to _insist_ on being called "Your Majesty" -- the imperial title -- instead of the "merely royal" title "Your Grace.") -- _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 09:36:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84Datr0011178 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:36:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84DPZdD029923 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:25:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84DPSrZ015171; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:25:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84DPQrZ015101 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:25:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m190.in-tch.com [216.166.191.190]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h84D5H714093 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 07:05:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F573DC0.E677C598@in-tch.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 07:27:28 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] speaking of colours.......... References: <001901c37222$c06b0700$9c0477d8@pavilion> <3F56BD3C.1030801@faucet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is just fascinating. Do you have any more info about the article? I think I'll have to try to ILL it.... --sue, who really should be getting ready for work instead of drooling at colors..... Melanie Schuessler wrote: > > Try "The Rates of the London Custom House in 1550" by Joan Edwards and > J. L. Nevinson from Costume, volume 4 (1970). There are quite a number > of fabrics and some dyes listed for import, and few of the fabrics are > listed by color. The ones that are make a distinction between the > fabric that is in grain/crimson/purple and that which is not, so there > is some basis for the "purple taxed higher" assertion. Here are the > exceptions and the dyes--at least the ones I can identify: > > Brasell the C. pounde xxxiii.s.iiii.d. > Brasel the pounde iiii.d. > > Damaske the yarde iiii.s. > Damaske crymsyn or purple the yarde vi.s.viii.d. > > Graynes the hundreth pounde l.s. > Grayne of Portyngle called rote the pounde xvi.d. > Grayne of sevell the pounde xii.d. > Grayne pouder the pounde ii.s. > > Gaules the hundreth pounde xiii.s.iiii.d. > > Mul madder the bale xx.s. > Madder the bale l.s. > Madder the C. pounde vi.s.viii.d. > > Orchel the laste xl.s. > Orchell the pounde xiii.s.iiii.d. > > Rosset the pounde vi.d. > > Satten out of grayne the yarde v.s. > Satten right crimisin in grayne or purple the yarde x.s. > Satten counterfete crimsin ye yard vi.s.viii.d. > Satten tinseld with gold the yarde xiii.s.iiii.d. > Satten of bruges the yarde xx.d. > Satten of bruges counterfete tynselde the yarde iii.s.iiii.d. > > Tarmaret the C. pounde xl.s. > > Velvet ryghte crymisyn in grayne the yarde xiii.s.iiii.d. > Velvet of all collors out of grayne the yarde vii.s.vi.d. > > Woad of gascone the pype iii pound vi.s.viii.d. > Woad of the Ile of Surrey teh ballet x.s. > Woad of the Ile of Assorns the ballet x.s. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 12:14:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GEqr0013892 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:14:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GDVdD016870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:13:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GDQ9M016014; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:13:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GDG9M015877 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:13:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.78.20]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uwjT-00041i-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 09:13:15 -0700 Received: from [207.217.78.202] by EarthlinkWAM via HTTP; Thu Sep 04 09:13:15 PDT 2003 Message-ID: <6053498.1062691995593.JavaMail.nobody@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:13:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Christine Krebs-Bonder To: Historical Costume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Web Access Mail version 3.0 Subject: [h-cost] Help needed with a 1870s corset pattern X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have been asked to make a 1870s corset for a friend who is a size 32. The largest size pattern I have is the Laughing Moon Dore corset. I am wondering the best way to size up the pattern to fit my friend. Would it be best to just extend the pattern pieces as printed or to make additional gores? Would it be a good idea to add extra boning channels? >From what she said she wants the corset more for the way it looks than to actually pull in her figure any great amount. Given that she has lots of trouble finding even modern clothes that fit I'd like to be able to make the corset for her. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, Christine Krebs-Bonder Dayton, OH _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 12:42:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GgAr0014353 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:42:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GPqdD018210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:25:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GPo9M026599; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:25:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h84GPj9M026535 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:25:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 90334 invoked by uid 1005); 4 Sep 2003 16:25:37 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.153753 secs); 04 Sep 2003 16:25:37 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.153753 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 4 Sep 2003 16:25:37 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:25:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help needed with a 1870s corset pattern In-Reply-To: <6053498.1062691995593.JavaMail.nobody@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030904121945.H5130-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Christine, As a larger lady myself (and one who has made corsets for larger ladies), I've found that we tend to have a higher "squish" factor and therefore mold more easily to a given corset's shape. Therefore I doubt that extra gores would be needed; expanding the pieces should be enough. The one thing I would look out for is that the corset is tight enough, due to the squish factor mentioned above. You may end up taking another inch or two off the back edges, even when the corset measurements match up with what they should be. I didn't know you were in Dayton--I live 20 minutes outside of Dayton! Small world. Let me know if you ever want to stop by my Thursday Sewing Circle. Happy corseting, Drea On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Christine Krebs-Bonder wrote: > I have been asked to make a 1870s corset for a friend who is a size 32. The largest size pattern I have is the Laughing Moon Dore corset. > > I am wondering the best way to size up the pattern to fit my friend. Would it be best to just extend the pattern pieces as printed or to make additional gores? Would it be a good idea to add extra boning channels? > > >From what she said she wants the corset more for the way it looks than to actually pull in her figure any great amount. Given that she has lots of trouble finding even modern clothes that fit I'd like to be able to make the corset for her. > > Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Many thanks, > > Christine Krebs-Bonder > Dayton, OH > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 12:44:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84Gimr0014395 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:44:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GW5dD018845 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:32:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GW19M002316; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:32:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com (imo-r08.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.104]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GVu9M002141 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:31:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.118.2866a259 (14374) for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:31:47 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <118.2866a259.2c88c2f3@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:31:47 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help needed with a 1870s corset pattern To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The trouble with just adding extra to pattern pieces is that angles and slopes and curves need to change as well as measurements. HOWEVER, if the corset is a lot of pieces, adding to the existing seams can work. Like: if the corset is 8 pieces, if you add 1/2" to each side of each seam, you've just added 8". But like I say, curves and slopes will need adjusting. There is a great method for enlarging patterns in the back of one of Janet Arnold's books, I believe Vol. I of "Patterns of Fashion". At any rate, you may want to make up a muslin corset boned with Rigelene and lots of seam allowance. Baste it up with the seam allowance on the OUTSIDE and fit it on her. Have fun! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 12:51:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84Gp5r0014499 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:51:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GdadD019734 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:39:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GdX9M009007; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:39:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84GdT9M008879 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:39:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.3f.21a6d4b6 (14374) for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:39:19 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <3f.21a6d4b6.2c88c4b6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:39:18 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help needed with a 1870s corset pattern To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/4/2003 12:36:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: > At any rate, you may want to make up a muslin corset boned with Rigelene > and > lots of seam allowance. Baste it up with the seam allowance on the OUTSIDE > and > fit it on her. > I forgot to add: You needn't be fussy with the mock up. Just zig-zag the Rigelene to the outside of the muslin pattern pieces. This will help determine if you need more boning too. But I always say, the more bones the better! ;-) Ciao! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 13:09:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84H9Ur0014839 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:09:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84H7qdD022941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:07:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84H7pcF003459; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:07:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41001.mail.yahoo.com (web41001.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.0]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h84H7mcF003360 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:07:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030904170743.654.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [213.237.104.69] by web41001.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 10:07:43 PDT Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:07:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Tania Gruning To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F56031F.15845.32EE5318@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] portrait X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi all. I work at a store that sell posters and frame pictures. I had the great opportunity to see a very high quality print of Holbeins portrait of Sir Thomas Moore. I have never seen the picture in real life, but the glowing color and the tecture of the clothes almost make you feel like Sir Thomas is about to step out. I get a feeling from the picture that he was a decisive man and not one to cross. The poster came from the Frick Collection in New York, and as i reside in Denmark i have no financial benefit of praising this poster. Tania --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 13:26:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HQnr0015184 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:26:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HPbdD025633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:25:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HPYcF019177; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:25:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41010.mail.yahoo.com (web41010.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.9]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h84HPTcF019047 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:25:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030904172524.58694.qmail@web41010.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [213.237.104.69] by web41010.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 10:25:24 PDT Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:25:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tania Gruning To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] p.s. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I would like to see someone do the reconstruction of this outfit, would look fabolous on a middle age man. (with something to hide :-)) The Velvet sleeves of the doublet, i assume is inside the robe look so luxurious. Tania --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 13:34:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HYEr0015305 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:34:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HSFdD025918 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:28:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HSFcF021328; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:28:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h84HSDcF021315 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:28:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 55407 invoked by uid 1005); 4 Sep 2003 17:28:06 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 1.659332 secs); 04 Sep 2003 17:28:05 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 1.659332 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 4 Sep 2003 17:28:03 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:28:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? In-Reply-To: <445E782ED9213F40922903173696C884777768@incoming.sigenetics.com> Message-ID: <20030904132755.P5130-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That's the one I ended up getting...thanks, Drea On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Sunny Buchler wrote: > I used the Truly Victorian bustle pattern, and am very pleased with it (it's TV101 Petticoat with Wire Bustle) You can get it at http://trulyvictorian.netfirms.com/undies.html > > -sunny > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:32:11 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Drea Leed > > Subject: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? > > To: h-costume@indra.com > > Message-ID: <20030903163051.W86904-100000@shell.siscom.net> > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > > > > Dear list, > > > > does anyone know of a good 1870s bustle pattern available? > > I've seen a > > few, but am far enough from my preferred costume timeframe > > that I don't > > know which would be the best for an 1870s evening gown. Any > > help would > > be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Drea > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 13:34:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HYvr0015321 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:34:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HRudD025895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:27:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HRucF021112; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:27:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h84HRrcF021081 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:27:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 53954 invoked by uid 1005); 4 Sep 2003 17:27:46 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.489422 secs); 04 Sep 2003 17:27:46 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.489422 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 4 Sep 2003 17:27:45 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:27:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1870s bustle pattern? In-Reply-To: <020701c37270$85efe160$81694ed5@pavilion> Message-ID: <20030904132555.E5130-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The "stereotypical" victorian...it's for a modern costume piece, so I want the typical characteristics exaggerated as much as I can while remaning authentic. I checked out the Truly Victorian site--amazing! I had planned to draft a cuirass bodice myself, but decided I might as well start my sloper off of their pattern...and those skirt & bustle patterns are truly mouthwatering. I grabbed several of them, just to have, including their bustle & petticoat pattern. Thanks, Drea On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Melanie Wilson wrote: > I have a load I've done myself what type are you after ? > > Mel > > This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received > it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose > the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of > this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the > Company, unless specifically stated. > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 13:37:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HbSr0015364 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:37:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HaLdD026796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:36:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HaJcF028078; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:36:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84HaFcF028029 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:36:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from susan (ip157.usw19.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [207.202.235.157]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with SMTP id EADF06A4B5 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004101c3730b$e5534520$0200a8c0@susan> From: "Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <6053498.1062691995593.JavaMail.nobody@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help needed with a 1870s corset pattern Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:42:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a situation like this, where I need to make a pattern wider, I have usually add the extra in the center. I cut the pattern piece up the enter - horizontally and often following the grain line - so I have two pieces instead of one, with one side being straight. I then add the extra in the center by either pinning the pieces equal distance apart on the fabric (if it is only 1-2 inches) or by cutting a straight section and taping it in if it is more. Or,for example, if I need more at the bottom then the top, I slant the pieces outward toward the bottom. I then cut it out as if it is all one piece. If, in the case of a corset, this makes one section really large, will I cut it out as two pieces, with a generous seamline, adding the extra to what used to be the center and cutting the new seam line as a straight line. If I need to make a pattern longer, I cut it the on the vertical where ever it will add the best, but this works the best if it is only a small amount as it is tricker. I always do a careful fitting esp. for corsets when I add a lot to a pattern. Here, if you cut one piece into two and have a seam that is a straight line, you can adjust the width of the seam and you end up with the right curves. And do the first time through as a mockup if you are making big adjustments. or do the lining first (this doesnt' work as well). If I end up adding extra boning, I follow the pattern of the boning, if it is straight along the seamline, I add a straight piece, If it is curved, I kinda average it between the two adjacent boning channels. You have to have through and accurate measurements to best do this. Not only the a bust and waist, but also the back width and side and front. And shoulder to waist and waist to hip. This tells you where to add. Ask me if you have any questions. Susan > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 14:03:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84I39r0015913 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:03:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84I2CdD029574 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:02:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84I2ANV021398; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:02:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84I27NV021345 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:02:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.78.242]) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19uyQo-00009j-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 11:02:06 -0700 Received: from [207.217.78.204] by EarthlinkWAM via HTTP; Thu Sep 04 11:02:04 PDT 2003 Message-ID: <991774.1062698524378.JavaMail.nobody@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:02:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Christine Krebs-Bonder To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Help needed with a 1870s corset pattern Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Web Access Mail version 3.0 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Many thanks to everyone for the advice folks have posted in response to my question! Hi Drea! Yep, I'm in Dayton (onthe north side). since I don't have any college classes this fall I should be able to come to the Thursday sewing nights starting the week after next (I have a church service to sing at on the evening of September 11th). Christine in Dayton, OH _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 14:10:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84IA7r0016153 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:10:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84I9AdD000282 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:09:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84I97NV027120; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:09:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14002.mail.yahoo.com (web14002.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h84I93NV027025 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:09:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030904180901.35716.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:09:01 BST Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:09:01 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] p.s. To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20030904172524.58694.qmail@web41010.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO What oufit? --- Tania Gruning wrote: > I would like to see someone do the reconstruction of > this outfit, would look fabolous on a middle age > man. (with something to hide :-)) > The Velvet sleeves of the doublet, i assume is > inside the robe look so luxurious. > > Tania > > ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 14:29:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84ITRr0016542 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:29:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84ISRdD001946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:28:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84ISPNV013226; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:28:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84ISMNV013194 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:28:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip178.100-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.100.178]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D252F6AAF0 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:28:18 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 11:28:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] portrait Message-ID: <3F5721D2.29266.FD71F5@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030904170743.654.qmail@web41001.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F56031F.15845.32EE5318@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I work at a store that sell posters and frame pictures. I had the > great opportunity to see a very high quality print of Holbeins > portrait of Sir Thomas Moore. I have never seen the picture in real > life, but the glowing color and the tecture of the clothes almost make > you feel like Sir Thomas is about to step out. I get a feeling from > the picture that he was a decisive man and not one to cross. The > poster came from the Frick Collection in New York, and as i reside in > Denmark i have no financial benefit of praising this poster. Tania You are probably better off than the people who (like me) who have actually gone to the museum to see it. Part of it was the time of day, but the room is lit very oddly (for a museum, but it once was a house, which may account for some of it) and there was so much glare on the painting that you can't really see it well. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 15:07:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84J7kr0016978 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:07:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84J69dD007136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:06:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84J660v013283; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:06:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84J5v0v013089 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:05:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from comcast.net (pcp04599099pcs.elictc01.md.comcast.net[68.55.87.127]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2003090419055201300i0udoe> (Authid: cozit); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:05:52 +0000 Message-ID: <3F578D15.9060300@comcast.net> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:05:57 -0400 From: Cozit / Liz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com References: <200309041614.h84GE79N016533@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200309041614.h84GE79N016533@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Speaking of hats... 1500s German Noblewomen? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've seen various Landsknecht sites, which are great in my search for that hat last year for a friend... Now I've another friend who is trying to complete a German outfit .... 1500s (sorry, can't remember the exact year) noblewoman. Somehow I don't think that those big pancake hats would do it for her :-) Does anyone out there have any pointers to pictures or construction information for various hats that fall into the German states at that time? Other than the famous Anne of Cleves one, that is... Thanks! -Elisabeth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 15:25:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84JPpr0017054 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:25:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84JOwdD010472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:24:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84JOu0v029051; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:24:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h84JOq0v028978 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:24:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 61061 invoked by uid 1005); 4 Sep 2003 19:24:41 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.156696 secs); 04 Sep 2003 19:24:41 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.156696 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 4 Sep 2003 19:24:40 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:24:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Help needed with a 1870s corset pattern In-Reply-To: <991774.1062698524378.JavaMail.nobody@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030904143035.F5130-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cool! I look forward to seeing you sometime. Directions to my place are online at http://costume.dm.net/~drea/sewnight.html Drea On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Christine Krebs-Bonder wrote: > Many thanks to everyone for the advice folks have posted in response to my question! > > Hi Drea! Yep, I'm in Dayton (onthe north side). since I don't have any college classes this fall I should be able to come to the Thursday sewing nights starting the week after next (I have a church service to sing at on the evening of September 11th). > > Christine in Dayton, OH > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 4 15:47:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84Jlqr0017607 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:47:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84JkjdD015563 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:46:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84Jkd0v018819; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:46:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.uvm.edu (badger.uvm.edu [132.198.101.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84JkX0v018702 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:46:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uvm.edu (ip104036.uvm.edu [132.198.104.36]) by smtp.uvm.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84JkWFa028520 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:46:32 -0400 Message-ID: <3F579698.4030509@uvm.edu> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:46:32 -0400 From: Hope Greeenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@net.indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Hats and Green X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, quel coincidence! While looking for images of early 16th century women wearing hats, I found this image of Jean Clouet (1485/90 - 1541) (attributed to) 'Princess Marguerite of Angouleme' c. 1530: http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/displaycollections.asp?[file]=az/p.html It has both an interesting hat and mentions that the parrot in the picture "may also symbolise love, its green colour denoting passion." No source for that statement, though. sigh. - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 17:29:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LTDr0019677 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:29:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LSDdD020157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:28:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LS0CK016167; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:28:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.suscom.net (smtp.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84L468M021774 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:04:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 50A831B256F for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008b01c37328$0f8a16e0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F579698.4030509@uvm.edu> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hats and Green Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:03:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-DCC-dmv.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1181; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hope Greeenberg" To: Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 3:46 PM Subject: [h-cost] Hats and Green > Well, quel coincidence! While looking for images of early 16th century > women wearing hats, I found this image of Jean Clouet (1485/90 - 1541) > (attributed to) 'Princess Marguerite of Angouleme' c. 1530: > http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/walker/displaycollections.asp?[file]=az/p .html > It has both an interesting hat and mentions that the parrot in the > picture "may also symbolise love, its green colour denoting passion." No > source for that statement, though. sigh. > > - Hope What a lovely portrait! All birdie lovers on the list thank you for that. I do love Clouet's portraits.BTW, the bird looks distinctly like an Indian Ringneck. Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 17:36:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LaPr0019828 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:36:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LZIdD020779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:35:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LZFCK021649; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:35:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h84MM8GJ029999 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:22:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-017scfairp0220.dialsprint.net ([63.183.168.220] helo=faucet.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19v2UR-00050D-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 15:22:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3F57C857.2040604@faucet.net> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 18:18:47 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] speaking of colours.......... References: <001901c37222$c06b0700$9c0477d8@pavilion> <3F56BD3C.1030801@faucet.net> <3F573DC0.E677C598@in-tch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sue Clemenger wrote: > This is just fascinating. > Do you have any more info about the article? I think I'll have to try to > ILL it.... I have the article. Do you have a specific question, or were you just wondering what's in it? To answer the latter, it has a couple of pages of commentary at the front about import duties and things, and then the listing of import items that carried a tax and how much for each from the London Customs House in 1550, plus a helpful but not all-inclusive glossary at the back. Happy ILLing, Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 17:36:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Lapr0019841 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:36:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85La6dD020883 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:36:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85La4CK022324; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:36:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from stanford.loosefoot.com (stanford.loosefoot.com [207.195.54.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8509S4C015296 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:09:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bernie.loosefoot.com (bernie.loosefoot.com [207.195.54.243]) by stanford.loosefoot.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B1CA164274 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:09:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 7828 invoked from network); 5 Sep 2003 00:09:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mabion.spublofe.com) (12.246.76.5) by bernie.loosefoot.com with SMTP; 5 Sep 2003 00:09:26 -0000 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030904170504.009f9260@pop3.lfchosting.com> X-Sender: mabse/spublofe.com@pop3.lfchosting.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 17:07:09 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com From: MaryAnn Jones In-Reply-To: <200309041614.h84GE79O016533@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 550 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:14 AM 9/4/2003 -0600, you wrote: >I have been asked to make a 1870s corset for a friend who is a size 32. >The largest size pattern I have is the Laughing Moon Dore corset. > >I am wondering the best way to size up the pattern to fit my friend. Would >it be best to just extend the pattern pieces as printed or to make >additional gores? Would it be a good idea to add extra boning channels? That is about how big I am. When Joann fit me, she had me try on a shell out of the largest size and then she fit it to me. It turned out that all I had to do was to ad about a half an inch at the hip of each panel. I would suggest that you make the fitting shell, sew it closed in the center back and then wrap it around her to see how it fits. Some of the need for adjustment is based on your "squish" factor. maryann _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 17:37:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Lb7r0019847 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:37:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LaXdD020934 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:36:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LaWCK022819; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:36:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h850jM4C005948 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:45:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-15-251.o1.jps.net ([216.119.15.251] helo=pavilion) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19v4j2-0000kA-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 17:45:21 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c37347$4c8eb900$fb0f77d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001901c37222$c06b0700$9c0477d8@pavilion> <3F56BD3C.1030801@faucet.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] speaking of colours.......... Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:47:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you ever so much for this! From my early readings it does sound like various taxes and seals were applied during various stages of the domestic manufacturing process too. And no doubt with a bit more time, info should not be all that hard to track down. Thanks for this tip off. A higher tax on purple......very interesting! I definitely think these sorts of documents need webbing so the origins of "costuming rules" don't get distorted in the old game of telephone. Cheers to you too! Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melanie Schuessler" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] speaking of colours.......... > Lisa Sinervo wrote: > > I've been doing a bit of reading lately on the sealing of cloth and > > the use of lead seals and David Egan does mention that different > > colours were taxed at different rates. Unfortunately, no specific > > reference to any one document he bases this on that I can order and > > find which colours were taxed what. (wouldn't research be nice if it > > was this easy!!) I've quite a bit more available to read on this but > > I thought I would ask if anyone knows more about this. > > > > The renfair crowd does talk about purple being taxed higher, so > > someone might know at least something about this. It does appear it > > was not just a purple rule, but a taxation system that involved > > probably all colours. I'm most interested in England. > > Try "The Rates of the London Custom House in 1550" by Joan Edwards and > J. L. Nevinson from Costume, volume 4 (1970). There are quite a number > of fabrics and some dyes listed for import, and few of the fabrics are > listed by color. The ones that are make a distinction between the > fabric that is in grain/crimson/purple and that which is not, so there > is some basis for the "purple taxed higher" assertion. Here are the > exceptions and the dyes--at least the ones I can identify: > > Brasell the C. pounde xxxiii.s.iiii.d. > Brasel the pounde iiii.d. > > Damaske the yarde iiii.s. > Damaske crymsyn or purple the yarde vi.s.viii.d. > > Graynes the hundreth pounde l.s. > Grayne of Portyngle called rote the pounde xvi.d. > Grayne of sevell the pounde xii.d. > Grayne pouder the pounde ii.s. > > Gaules the hundreth pounde xiii.s.iiii.d. > > Mul madder the bale xx.s. > Madder the bale l.s. > Madder the C. pounde vi.s.viii.d. > > Orchel the laste xl.s. > Orchell the pounde xiii.s.iiii.d. > > Rosset the pounde vi.d. > > Satten out of grayne the yarde v.s. > Satten right crimisin in grayne or purple the yarde x.s. > Satten counterfete crimsin ye yard vi.s.viii.d. > Satten tinseld with gold the yarde xiii.s.iiii.d. > Satten of bruges the yarde xx.d. > Satten of bruges counterfete tynselde the yarde iii.s.iiii.d. > > Tarmaret the C. pounde xl.s. > > Velvet ryghte crymisyn in grayne the yarde xiii.s.iiii.d. > Velvet of all collors out of grayne the yarde vii.s.vi.d. > > Woad of gascone the pype iii pound vi.s.viii.d. > Woad of the Ile of Surrey teh ballet x.s. > Woad of the Ile of Assorns the ballet x.s. > > > Cheers, > Melanie Schuessler > > > > http://www.faucet.net/costume > Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction > Coastal Carolina University > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 17:37:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LbHr0019853 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:37:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LakdD020956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:36:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LajCK023022; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:36:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h850uW9a012326 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:56:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from BOSTONHAHN@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.b8.4754591a (16781) for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:56:21 -0400 (EDT) From: BOSTONHAHN@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:56:20 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Speaking of hats... 1500s German Noblewomen? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If you can get hold of the following book: The Thyssen-Bornemisza Collection: Early German Painting 1350-1550 there are several head coverings for example: Albrecht Altdorfer: Portrait of a woman Anonymous Master: Portrait of a woman wearing the Order of the swan (1596) (Really crazy, unusual hat) Anonymous Master of the School of Lucas Cranach the Elder: Portrait of a woman aged 26 Anonymous Master: Portrait of Anna Duerer, Wife of Hieronimus Fletcher, aged 22 Anonymous Master active at the Tyrollean Court 1485: Portrait of Kunigunde of Austria (an almost Burgundian looking hat) barthel Beham: Portrait of Ursula Rudolph, Wfe of Ruprect Stuepf Joerg Breu the Elder: Portrait of Coloman Helmschmid and his wife Agnes Breu Barthel Bryn Pair of Portraits spec. Portrait of a woman Lucas Cranach the Younger: Portrait of a woman and probably my favorite: Hans Mahler: Portrait of Anne of Hungary and Bohemia I wished my scanner was working, but it isn't. So maybe you can get the book on inter library loan. There are lots portraits that are not seen as often, and great hats! Elisabeth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 17:37:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LbXr0019861 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:37:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Lb5dD021013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:37:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Lb4CK023351; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:37:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h852jJEu006092 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:45:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host-66-81-241-12.rev.o1.com ([66.81.241.12]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19v6b8-0004U5-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:45:18 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F55B3D1.17874.31B88930@localhost> References: <3F55B3D1.17874.31B88930@localhost> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:31:57 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: [h-cost] Re: 16th C hats X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 9:26 AM -0700 9/3/03, kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > >We know more about those caps that are knitted than just seeing a >couple in museums or modern books such as Rutt. They were called >"Statute Caps" based on an English statute of 1571 (repealed in 1597) >which stated that all above the age of six years except the nobility >and other persons of degree, should on Sabbath-days and holy-days >(which were about every other day in period compared to now), wear >caps of wool, manufactured in England. It was done in part to >encourage the knitters industry that Elizabeth was trying to foster. >Of course, like most sumptuary laws, people more often ignored it >than stuck to it. But it had one effect: suddenly this style was a >lot *less* popular with everyone. Hmm. Are you sure that the use of knitted construction and the "flat cap" style are specifically mentioned? I haven't seen the text of the actual statute. I would have thought that a wool felt hat, for instance, could meet the requirement. If a knitted cap is meant (which could well be the case) my first thought would be for a simple bowl-shaped cap, of which there are also surviving examples. (I believe the woman at http://www.qualitycaps.co.uk/ is the one who wrote an article suggesting that the "Monmouth" cap is a variation of this type.) This is relevant to me at the moment because I'm engaged in making a bowl-shaped knitted hat, which I'm planning to felt, as a prop for a theatrical gig addressing this Elizabethan "wool caps" statute. (Funny thing: the only affordable yarn the right size at my favorite yarn store was BRIGHT PURPLE, so that's what it's going to be! At least it will get attention...) -- _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 17:39:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Ldqr0019915 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:39:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LcidD021217 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:38:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LcUCK024879; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:38:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h853tHxL008905 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:55:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.166]) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/linuxconf) with SMTP id h854LFB23567 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:21:15 +1000 Message-ID: <07f401c37362$1e2f2020$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:59:31 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] Leaving on a jet plane... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The time has finally come for Wayne and I to get to the UK! After the dreaded 24 hour flight (urk!) we'll arrive in London at 6am on Sunday. We'll be back the second week of October. I'll be going to the standard costume places - Bath, Nottingham, V&A as well as doing the museum/castle crawl. We're heading around the coast of SE England, York, Leeds (royal armouries), SW to SE Wales, and to St Albans via Bath and the Salisbury Plains. We then have a week in London for the final museum leg. We'll take heaps of photos. Glenda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 17:50:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LoOr0020120 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:50:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LnbdD022298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:49:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LnOCK003788; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:49:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41004.mail.yahoo.com (web41004.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h855COPK010924 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:12:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030905051218.17220.qmail@web41004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [213.237.104.69] by web41004.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Sep 2003 22:12:18 PDT Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:12:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Tania Gruning Subject: Re: [h-cost] p.s. To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20030904180901.35716.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The outfit of Sir Thomas Moore painted by Holbein the younger. I had sent of an earlier post about seeing a very high quality print of that painting Tania Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: What oufit? --- Tania Gruning wrote: > I would like to see someone do the reconstruction of > this outfit, would look fabolous on a middle age > man. (with something to hide :-)) > The Velvet sleeves of the doublet, i assume is > inside the robe look so luxurious. > > Tania > > ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 17:50:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Loor0020130 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:50:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85Lo3dD022328 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:50:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LnvCK004176; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:49:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h857QFhc002689 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:26:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C0B19FB13 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:26:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F583B87.8060302@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:30:15 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: H-Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Corset and bustle comparion pages X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Found some interesting pages Corset comparison page http://www.farthingales.on.ca/corset_comparison.htm Bustles shape comparison page http://www.farthingales.on.ca/bustle_comparison.htm Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 18:10:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85MAgr0020534 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:10:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85MA9dD024347 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:10:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85M9iMj019041; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:09:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net (mtaw6.prodigy.net [64.164.98.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85LpBCK005099 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:51:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-64-175-33-152.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [64.175.33.152]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h85LoxZj017397 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030905144515.057fbcf0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 14:50:33 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Speaking of hats... 1500s German Noblewomen? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The Dover book of Albrecht Durer woodcuts shows something on the head of every woman, including the German version of the flat cap on some. He worked in Nuremburg in the very-early 1500s. The Dover book that used to be called something like Ren. Woodcuts for Artists, all Jost Amman stuff from mid to late 1500s Nuremburg, also shows headwear on all the women, including later German version flat caps on some. >If you can get hold of the following book: >The Thyssen-Bornemisza Collection: Early German Painting 1350-1550 >there are several head coverings >for example: >Albrecht Altdorfer: Portrait of a woman >Anonymous Master: Portrait of a woman wearing the Order of the swan (1596) >(Really crazy, unusual hat) >Anonymous Master of the School of Lucas Cranach the Elder: Portrait of a >woman aged 26 >Anonymous Master: Portrait of Anna Duerer, Wife of Hieronimus Fletcher, aged >22 >Anonymous Master active at the Tyrollean Court 1485: Portrait of Kunigunde of >Austria (an almost Burgundian looking hat) >barthel Beham: Portrait of Ursula Rudolph, Wfe of Ruprect Stuepf >Joerg Breu the Elder: Portrait of Coloman Helmschmid and his wife Agnes Breu >Barthel Bryn Pair of Portraits spec. Portrait of a woman >Lucas Cranach the Younger: Portrait of a woman >and probably my favorite: >Hans Mahler: Portrait of Anne of Hungary and Bohemia >I wished my scanner was working, but it isn't. So maybe you can get the book >on inter library loan. There are lots portraits that are not seen as often, >and great hats! >Elisabeth > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 19:20:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85NKur0021603 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:20:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85NKBdD028676 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:20:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85NJjBs003082; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:19:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h85NJgBs003052 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:19:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vPrh-0003nu-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:19:42 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 16:20:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c37404$3d5333e0$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20030905144515.057fbcf0@mail.frys.com> Importance: Normal Subject: [h-cost] Threads Magazine vintage corset and bustier instructions X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The latest edition of Threads magazine has a photo of a very nice vintage corset (18th century) corset with little built in hippads....it also has a related article on modern bustier/corset making complete with pictures of materials (boning, padding, etc.) Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 20:04:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8604Lr0022408 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:04:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8603QdD001007 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:03:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8602xGa024908; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:02:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.surewest.net (smtp2.surewest.net [208.45.228.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8602tGa024843 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:02:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 27673 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2003 00:02:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gateway) (216.93.210.89) by smtp2.surewest.net with SMTP; 6 Sep 2003 00:02:49 -0000 Message-ID: <037301c3740a$2f866e20$0300a8c0@gateway> From: "Joan Broneske" To: "H-Costume" Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:02:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-TST: smtp2 SNWK Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8604Lr0022408 Status: RO Does anyone know of a site online with pictures or anything else regarding the costumes from this movie? Thanks, ,%%%, --==% `%%%, |' )`%%, \_/\ @%%, __@@" %%%--"""-.%, /`__| \%% \\ \ / | /'%, \] | /----'. < `%, Joan Broneske || `>> > unicorn@surewest.net || ///` /( //( _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 20:28:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860SBr0022916 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:28:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860RRdD002306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:27:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860RIGa005426; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:27:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860RFGa005403 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:27:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-000-021.jps.net ([216.119.0.21] helo=pavilion) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vQv4-0007c1-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:27:15 -0700 Message-ID: <002101c3740d$f09688e0$150077d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F55B3D1.17874.31B88930@localhost> Subject: proclamations regarding caps Re: [h-cost] Re: 16th C hats Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:29:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Chris wrote: > > Hmm. Are you sure that the use of knitted construction and the "flat > cap" style are specifically mentioned? I haven't seen the text of the > actual statute. I would have thought that a wool felt hat, for > instance, could meet the requirement. > You can find a listing of the royal proclamations for caps at http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/Proclamations.htm plus a link to the text of the cap statute from 1573, Cheers, Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 20:28:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860SUr0022925 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:28:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860S0dD002339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:28:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860RxGa005804; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:27:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860RvGa005786 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:27:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-000-021.jps.net ([216.119.0.21] helo=pavilion) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vQvk-0000i6-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:27:57 -0700 Message-ID: <002801c3740e$09cd00a0$150077d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <07f401c37362$1e2f2020$eaf4fea9@glendaii> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Leaving on a jet plane... Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:30:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Have a wonderful time!!! Lisa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 8:59 PM Subject: [h-cost] Leaving on a jet plane... > The time has finally come for Wayne and I to get to the UK! After the > dreaded 24 hour flight (urk!) we'll arrive in London at 6am on Sunday. > > We'll be back the second week of October. I'll be going to the standard > costume places - Bath, Nottingham, V&A as well as doing the museum/castle > crawl. We're heading around the coast of SE England, York, Leeds (royal > armouries), SW to SE Wales, and to St Albans via Bath and the Salisbury > Plains. We then have a week in London for the final museum leg. > > We'll take heaps of photos. > > Glenda > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 20:30:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860UEr0022963 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:30:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860TbdD002395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:29:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860TYGa006496; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:29:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m3.nyc.untd.com (m3.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.66]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h860TVGa006436 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:29:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"MW/ewWa+Q2FG65sHxVDc3fuVfi5qGvC5dnbm5NZ5IJMFZ4ReuZGz5A==">; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:28:49 PDT Received: (from btana@juno.com) by m3.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id H9CTVGWJ; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:28:49 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:43:25 -0600 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie Message-ID: <20030905.184332.768.2.btana@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-8,11-14,16-18 From: btana@juno.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:02:39 -0700 "Joan Broneske" writes: > Does anyone know of a site online with pictures or anything else > regarding the costumes from this movie? > > Thanks, Are you talking about the one with Kevin Kline (I THINK), Calista Flockhart... I can't think of the others right now? If so, I can check around. Astrid Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie. http://www.geocities.com/tul_juriss - for links to ALL my current sites http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde - costumes I've made http://www.geocities.com/house_qul_mupwi - The noble Klingon House http://www.geocities.com/klingon_pirates_guild - The Klingon Pirate's Guild ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 20:49:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860npr0023340 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:49:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860nFdD003305 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:49:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860nAGa014877; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:49:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860n6Ga014849 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:49:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-64-175-33-152.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [64.175.33.152])h860muu3010740 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:49:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030905173141.055645a0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:48:48 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie In-Reply-To: <037301c3740a$2f866e20$0300a8c0@gateway> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Does anyone know of a site online with pictures or anything else regarding >the costumes from this movie? I can think of two, offhand: The recent one (1999) with people like Kevin Kline and Rupert Everett and Michelle Pfeiffer and Stanley Tucci in it (http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0140379/), and the 1935 one with people like Mickey Rooney and James Cagney and Olivia de Haviland and Victor Jory in it (http://imdb.com/title/tt0026714/). Which one were you thinking of? BTW, IMdB.com is a great place to look up films, actors, etc. Follow the links on the left-hand side, to things like photos, articles, interviews, etc. about the films. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 20:55:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860tbr0023484 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:55:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860t8dD003560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:55:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860t7FB017507; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:55:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h860t4FB017488 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:55:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-000-021.jps.net ([216.119.0.21] helo=pavilion) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vRLz-0006Q5-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 17:55:04 -0700 Message-ID: <003e01c37411$d3346c00$150077d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F55B3D1.17874.31B88930@localhost> <002101c3740d$f09688e0$150077d8@pavilion> Subject: Re: proclamations regarding caps Re: [h-cost] Re: 16th C hats Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:57:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Chris, I'm preparing some of these proclamations in period replic fonts for downloading to use at faires or where ever. If you want the caps statute done up, let me know and I'll whip it up. I've got 17c print fonts as well as hand of the court of the king/queens bench and some others. It seems that the statutes regarding caps from the other dates are the same as the 1573 text. I'm not 100% sure about this, but about 99% sure. Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 5:29 PM Subject: proclamations regarding caps Re: [h-cost] Re: 16th C hats > Chris wrote: > > > > > Hmm. Are you sure that the use of knitted construction and the "flat > > cap" style are specifically mentioned? I haven't seen the text of the > > actual statute. I would have thought that a wool felt hat, for > > instance, could meet the requirement. > > > You can find a listing of the royal proclamations for caps at > http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/Proclamations.htm plus a link to the text > of the cap statute from 1573, > > Cheers, > > Lisa Sinervo > www.ThrednedleStrete.com > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 22:20:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h862KXr0025513 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:20:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h862JpdD006509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:19:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h862JMUv004289; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:19:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xmxpita.myway.com (nn1.excitenetwork.com [207.159.120.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h862JJUv004196 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:19:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: by xmxpita.myway.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 60548399C; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:19:10 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Received: from [142.161.146.232] by mprdmailfe3.nwk.myway.com via HTTP; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 22:19:10 EST X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 5d736f09b0e6718c7d8f16ab7b2a55a9 From: "Wendy" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: emmajean@myway.com X-Mailer: PHP Message-Id: <20030906021910.60548399C@xmxpita.myway.com> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] 1530's German dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO HiI've been wanting to reproduce a dress based on Lucas Cranach's paintings -1530's German. Many of his women wear a similar style dress with a beautiful band across the top of the bodice with lacing over a white base under her breasts. What is the white part? It seems odd to me that it would be her chemise.-there is often white puffs on the sleeves as well. Also, is the lacing purely decorative? If they are for adjustment, how is the upper band affected? ThanksCheers,Emmawww.hecate.ca/emma/ _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Introducing My Way - http://www.myway.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 22:34:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h862Ylr0025821 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:34:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h862Y1dD007143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:34:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h862X74D002612; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:33:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.surewest.net (smtp2.surewest.net [208.45.228.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h862X24D002545 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:33:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 17296 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2003 02:26:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gateway) (216.93.210.89) by smtp2.surewest.net with SMTP; 6 Sep 2003 02:26:16 -0000 Message-ID: <038001c3741e$3969ecf0$0300a8c0@gateway> From: "Joan Broneske" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030905.184332.768.2.btana@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:26:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-TST: smtp2 SNWK X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, that's the one. Thanks. ,%%%, --==% `%%%, |' )`%%, \_/\ @%%, __@@" %%%--"""-.%, /`__| \%% \\ \ / | /'%, \] | /----'. < `%, Joan Broneske || `>> > unicorn@surewest.net || ///` /( //( ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie > > On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:02:39 -0700 "Joan Broneske" > writes: > > Does anyone know of a site online with pictures or anything else > > regarding the costumes from this movie? > > > > Thanks, > > > Are you talking about the one with Kevin Kline (I THINK), Calista > Flockhart... I can't think of the others right now? If so, I can check > around. > > Astrid > Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie. > http://www.geocities.com/tul_juriss - for links to ALL my current > sites > http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde - costumes I've made > http://www.geocities.com/house_qul_mupwi - The noble Klingon House > http://www.geocities.com/klingon_pirates_guild - The Klingon Pirate's > Guild > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 23:24:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863Orr0027108 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:24:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863OFdD008959 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:24:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863OFAH019207; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:24:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863LhAH017936 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:21:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip211.124-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.124.211]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AC616AB9B for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:21:41 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:21:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3F58F047.10636.2A9EA7E@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <002101c3740d$f09688e0$150077d8@pavilion> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Subject: [h-cost] Re: proclamations regarding caps, was: Re: 16th C hats X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > You can find a listing of the royal proclamations for caps at > http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/Proclamations.htm plus a link to the > text of the cap statute from 1573, Thanks Lisa. It sure shows how many problems they had getting sumptuary laws to work! And they were a wordy bunch. It's hard to find the actual information amongst all the flowery language. They are worse than modern laws and lawyer talk! Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 23:25:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863PXr0027120 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:25:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863LwdD008881 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:21:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863LjAH017950; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:21:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863LfAH017915 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:21:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip211.124-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.124.211]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 158256AB8B for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:21:37 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:21:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 16th C hats Message-ID: <3F58F048.19928.2A9EDDA@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <3F55B3D1.17874.31B88930@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Hmm. Are you sure that the use of knitted construction and the "flat > cap" style are specifically mentioned? I haven't seen the text of the > actual statute. I would have thought that a wool felt hat, for instance, > could meet the requirement. I've only seen bits and clips of it, but it was definitely knitted as it was specifically to promote that industry. I think that Elizabeth thought that if she could encourage the knitting industry, it might help with their major unemployment program. It was sort of like a public works project type of thing. In the quote from the statute that I've read it says "...one cap of wool knit, thicked and dressed in England, upon the forfeiture of 3s. 4d." And that women "...were constrained to wear white knit caps of woollen yarn, uless their husbands were of good value in the Queen's book, or could prove themselves gentlemen by descent..." > If a knitted cap is meant (which could well be the case) my first > thought would be for a simple bowl-shaped cap, of which there are also > surviving examples. (I believe the woman at > http://www.qualitycaps.co.uk/ is the one who wrote an article suggesting > that the "Monmouth" cap is a variation of this type.) I believe you are referring to the Costume Volume 13, 1979 article (page 23-37) "The Monmouth Cap" by Kirstie Buckland. While she discusses the 1571 law, I believe that she is otherwise talking about the Monmouth cap, which was called that even in Elizabeth's time. But it was a cap which continued to be worn even by the aristocracy in the time when the Statute Cap was being avoided, so I doubt that they had the same shape. The Monmouth cap always reminds me of a woolen ski cap or a sailors woolen cap, whereas the ones I've seen labeled as "Statute caps" have looked closer to the style of the hats which look more like a variation on a beret but with a brim or even a newsboy hat of the early 20thC. > This is relevant to me at the moment because I'm engaged in making a > bowl-shaped knitted hat, which I'm planning to felt, as a prop for a > theatrical gig addressing this Elizabethan "wool caps" statute. (Funny > thing: the only affordable yarn the right size at my favorite yarn store > was BRIGHT PURPLE, so that's what it's going to be! At least it will get > attention...) -- Yow! Have you considered dyeing it at the same time you are fulling it? Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 5 23:53:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863rhr0027924 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:53:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863qxdD009942 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:52:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863qqAH002217; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:52:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h863qnAH002184 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-003-140.jps.net ([216.119.3.140] helo=pavilion) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vU80-0002Z5-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:52:49 -0700 Message-ID: <001201c3742a$a4bb69a0$8c0377d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F55B3D1.17874.31B88930@localhost> <3F58F048.19928.2A9EDDA@localhost> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 16th C hats Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 20:54:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kat wrote: > > In the quote from the statute that I've read it says "...one cap of > wool knit, thicked and dressed in England, upon the forfeiture of 3s. > 4d." And that women "...were constrained to wear white knit caps of > woollen yarn, uless their husbands were of good value in the Queen's > book, or could prove themselves gentlemen by descent..." > This is obviously a different statute that I haven't come across, no doubt there are many more, do you have an exact date for this one? Thanks, Lisa _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 00:28:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864S7r0028753 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:28:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864RDdD010658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:27:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864QkF6015844; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:26:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864QgF6015792 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:26:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A17862F0094; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 23:24:24 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A1763BE016A; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 23:24:22 -0500 Message-ID: <00f001c3742f$722de080$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: <037301c3740a$2f866e20$0300a8c0@gateway> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:29:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-RBL-Warning: OSRELAY: This E-mail came from 66.210.222.51, a potential spam source listed in OSRELAY. X-RBL-Warning: WEIGHT5: Weight of 5 reaches or exceeds the limit of 5. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Joan, Which version? What year? Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joan Broneske" To: "H-Costume" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 8:02 PM Subject: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie Does anyone know of a site online with pictures or anything else regarding the costumes from this movie? Thanks, ,%%%, --==% `%%%, |' )`%%, \_/\ @%%, __@@" %%%--"""-.%, /`__| \%% \\ \ / | /'%, \] | /----'. < `%, Joan Broneske || `>> > unicorn@surewest.net || ///` /( //( _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 00:29:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864TVr0028785 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:29:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864SpdD010698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:28:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864SpF6016598; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:28:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864RVF6016055 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:27:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A1A96320094; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 23:25:13 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A1A78800CC; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 23:25:11 -0500 Message-ID: <00f501c3742f$8f9caac0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030905.184332.768.2.btana@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:30:11 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-RBL-Warning: OSRELAY: This E-mail came from 66.210.222.51, a potential spam source listed in OSRELAY. X-RBL-Warning: WEIGHT5: Weight of 5 reaches or exceeds the limit of 5. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I did a review of the Kevin Klein version. It is online. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie > > On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:02:39 -0700 "Joan Broneske" > writes: > > Does anyone know of a site online with pictures or anything else > > regarding the costumes from this movie? > > > > Thanks, > > > Are you talking about the one with Kevin Kline (I THINK), Calista > Flockhart... I can't think of the others right now? If so, I can check > around. > > Astrid > Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie. > http://www.geocities.com/tul_juriss - for links to ALL my current > sites > http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde - costumes I've made > http://www.geocities.com/house_qul_mupwi - The noble Klingon House > http://www.geocities.com/klingon_pirates_guild - The Klingon Pirate's > Guild > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] > > [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 00:59:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864xLr0029542 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:59:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864wgdD011473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:58:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h864wdOY027865; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:58:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.surewest.net (smtp2.surewest.net [208.45.228.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h864wZOY027808 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 22:58:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 315 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2003 04:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gateway) (216.93.210.89) by smtp2.surewest.net with SMTP; 6 Sep 2003 04:58:24 -0000 Message-ID: <03c901c37433$785fbc40$0300a8c0@gateway> From: "Joan Broneske" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030905.184332.768.2.btana@juno.com> <00f501c3742f$8f9caac0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:58:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-TST: smtp2 SNWK X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks, I'll check it out! ,%%%, --==% `%%%, |' )`%%, \_/\ @%%, __@@" %%%--"""-.%, /`__| \%% \\ \ / | /'%, \] | /----'. < `%, Joan Broneske || `>> > unicorn@surewest.net || ///` /( //( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie > I did a review of the Kevin Klein version. It is online. > > Penny Ladnier > Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom > www.costumegallery.com > www.costumeclassroom.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 8:43 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Midsummer Night's Dream the movie > > > > > > On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:02:39 -0700 "Joan Broneske" > > writes: > > > Does anyone know of a site online with pictures or anything else > > > regarding the costumes from this movie? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Are you talking about the one with Kevin Kline (I THINK), Calista > > Flockhart... I can't think of the others right now? If so, I can check > > around. > > > > Astrid > > Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie. > > http://www.geocities.com/tul_juriss - for links to ALL my current > > sites > > http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde - costumes I've made > > http://www.geocities.com/house_qul_mupwi - The noble Klingon House > > http://www.geocities.com/klingon_pirates_guild - The Klingon Pirate's > > Guild > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners > (http://www.plugit.com)] > > > > > > > [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 01:01:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8651vr0029598 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 01:01:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8651IdD011524 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:01:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8651IOY028803; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:01:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8651EOZ028776 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:01:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dandy.net (acty5181.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.250.181]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h86519NR027538 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 01:01:09 -0400 Message-ID: <3F59688E.3050500@dandy.net> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 00:54:38 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] The "Flat Cap" inquiry revisited X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, All. I haven't had the opportunity to work with "period" woolen knits, but in my family, I am the blocker and felter for the knitted bonnets (flat caps) that my wife makes (of various breeds of sheep's wool, including Merino and Border-Leicester). She has done a number of them, working from both the material printed in the archaeological reports available and her own conjectural patterns. So far, I have not been able to create, in the woolen knits that I have worked with, a crease of such sharpness as that illustrated in the engraving of Bruegel the Elder. I have no doubt, though, that with the correct pressure and sizing, such an effect could be created, not only in knit materials, but most probably in actual laid felt, another aspect that has not yet been explored. There are, existing, a number of laid felt items from around this period, unfortunately not in this particular form (Dunleavy shows a few from Ireland, pg. 64 illo 48, Chap.3 "The Sixteenth Century", shaped more like modern Stetson blanks), some with fairly hefty creasing, though who knows how they were treated after being removed from the ground. I have a modern "French" style beret which, over the years of wear, has developed a rather sharp crease in places, and I had a beret in the military that was able to be creased to a fare-thee-well. It is possible, then, that these illos are of laid felt construction (just to add another concept into the already overburdened discussion) Cheers, Mike T. PS, I'm still looking for illos of women wearing any sort of flat cap (my wife is guilty of this crime, too, so it is of interest to me...) MJT _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 01:44:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h865iIr0030613 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 01:44:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8658fdD011721 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:08:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8658eOY001846; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:08:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8658dOZ001823 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:08:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dandy.net (acty5181.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.250.181]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h8658bNR010648 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 01:08:38 -0400 Message-ID: <3F596A4F.5030108@dandy.net> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 01:02:07 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some News References: <01aa01c371c9$fd10aec0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> <002701c3726e$e9e3df20$89f54bab@Dan> <004501c37274$6870c6a0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And yet, he still wants to work on stage... How very cool is that? Penny, please tell your boy that he kicks A**. Congrats to him, and to you for being a great Mom and helping lift him up. Yours, Mike T. > >Patrick was a very sickly child when little with asthma... still has it. >Then he had learning disabilities from lead poisoning in our house's paint. >He has overcome a lot to earn such a high award. > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 09:57:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86DvLr0011672 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 09:57:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86DupdD025795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:56:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86DuXaD029712; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:56:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86DuUaD029693 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:56:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-002-251.jps.net ([216.119.2.251] helo=pavilion) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vdYD-0007L1-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 06 Sep 2003 06:56:29 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c3747e$fe8d99e0$fb0277d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F58F047.10636.2A9EA7E@localhost> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: proclamations regarding caps, was: Re: 16th C hats Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 06:58:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kat wrote: > > It sure shows how many problems they had getting sumptuary laws to > work! And they were a wordy bunch. It's hard to find the actual > information amongst all the flowery language. They are worse than > modern laws and lawyer talk! It's hard not only to find the actual information amongst the flowery language but it's also very difficult to find out what the motives behind the rules are because of all the bullshit. While all the proclamations appear to be enacted for the public good, additional readings concerning economics of the period make it quite clear that most of rules were made to benefit special interest groups and/or to preserve monopolies granted to those in the King/Queen's favour. In time I'll be adding a bit of commentary to the page but it's been a worthwhile endeavor just typing them out. Sometimes these proclamations have an almost Monty Phyton sort of humour about them, especially the starch licensing proclamations where they talk about agents, and agents of such agents, and agents of the agents of such agents. etc.... And then there's the wool regulations. It's easy to start seeing a patterns and story in these. There's a whole series attempting to make long and short cloths a standard size. First there is a regulation that as of xyz date all cloths must be this length, or there's the punishment. Clearly cloth manufacturers came up with the agruement that they could not adjust their equipment in time to make cloths of that size. Then comes the proclamation where, of "we really don't believe that you don't have the time to fix your equipment, but here is you extension anyway" and this happens again and again. The whole story develops when you start to read these in chronological order and you can begin to see all the devious ways and means that 16th century scammers went about inflating wool prices, most notably, sheep were not shorn after being washed so the wool was clean, but left to get sweaty and dirty to thus increase the weight of the wool and the attempts the government had at trying to pull this behavior into line to preserve the reputation of the English woolen industry. I agree though, these writers took about three pages convoluted expressions to convey something that really only needed one or two paragraphs. Lisa. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 10:38:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86Echr0012389 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:38:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86EcDdD028079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:38:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86Ec8aD015861; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:38:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86Ec6aD015832 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 08:38:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip17.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.164.17]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6786A6F3 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 07:34:31 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 07:37:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 16th C hats Message-ID: <3F598EC8.4124.5151341@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <001201c3742a$a4bb69a0$8c0377d8@pavilion> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > In the quote from the statute that I've read it says "...one cap of > > wool knit, thicked and dressed in England, upon the forfeiture of > > 3s. 4d." And that women "...were constrained to wear white knit caps > > of woollen yarn, uless their husbands were of good value in the > > Queen's book, or could prove themselves gentlemen by descent..." > > > > This is obviously a different statute that I haven't come across, no > doubt there are many more, do you have an exact date for this one? This is from the 1571 Statute. Probably the latter part of 13 Elizabeth, Chapter 19. More exact than that I don't know. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 15:59:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86Jxcr0017508 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 15:59:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86JwndD010741 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:58:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86JwRIb001326; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:58:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (cardassian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.45.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h86JwPIb001284 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:58:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1708BBE9A2 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:58:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F5A3D53.4020108@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 22:02:27 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: H-Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] [Fwd: Tudor rings] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I've got this interesting question from someone, but I don't know the answer. Does enyone has an idea? Why did the Tudors wear rings everywhere EXCEPT on the middle fingers? I first thought that Elizabeth I may have had arthritis in that finger, but then I saw in portraits that her parents and ancestors also never had rings on that finger. Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 22:11:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h872BKr0023965 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 22:11:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h872AUdD025671 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:10:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h872AGeb007123; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:10:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h872AFec007090 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:10:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dandy.net (acty2084.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.243.84]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h872A9NR020834 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 22:10:09 -0400 Message-ID: <3F5A91F6.3060806@dandy.net> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 22:03:34 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: proclamations regarding caps, was: Re: 16th C hats References: <3F58F047.10636.2A9EA7E@localhost> <000e01c3747e$fe8d99e0$fb0277d8@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, All. The belowmentioned underhanded tricks are amply mentioned in the facsimile book that I just picked up, entitled "A Declaration of the Estate of Clothing" by John May, dated 1613. The book is full of the technical language of cloth production, with terms such as Alneger, forels, Lancashire Plaines, Devonshire kersies, pitch in the loome, Northern Dozens, and other such items. There is a section on dying in which it is implied that many colors cannot be truly gotten without an underdying of woad. All in all, an interesting book. Cheers, Mike T. > >The whole story develops when you start to read these in chronological order >and you can begin to see all the devious ways and means that 16th century >scammers went about inflating wool prices, most notably, sheep were not >shorn after being washed so the wool was clean, but left to get sweaty and >dirty to thus increase the weight of the wool and the attempts the >government had at trying to pull this behavior into line to preserve the >reputation of the English woolen industry. > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 23:44:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h873iTr0025620 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 23:44:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h873gSdD029632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:42:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h873fmq1012786; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:41:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h873fjq1012768 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:41:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 22594 invoked by uid 1005); 7 Sep 2003 03:41:30 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.070791 secs); 07 Sep 2003 03:41:30 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.070791 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 7 Sep 2003 03:41:29 -0000 Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 23:41:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: proclamations regarding caps, was: Re: 16th C hats In-Reply-To: <3F5A91F6.3060806@dandy.net> Message-ID: <20030906233948.B61534-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I printed out a copy of this from EEBO--fascinating stuff. I found several proclamations relating to the textile industries on Early English Books Online, if you can get to it. Drea On Sat, 6 Sep 2003, michael tartaglio wrote: > > Hi, All. The belowmentioned underhanded tricks are amply mentioned in > the facsimile book that I just picked up, entitled "A Declaration of the > Estate of Clothing" by John May, dated 1613. The book is full of the > technical language of cloth production, with terms such as Alneger, > forels, Lancashire Plaines, Devonshire kersies, pitch in the loome, > Northern Dozens, and other such items. There is a section on dying in > which it is implied that many colors cannot be truly gotten without an > underdying of woad. All in all, an interesting book. Cheers, Mike T. > > > > >The whole story develops when you start to read these in chronological order > >and you can begin to see all the devious ways and means that 16th century > >scammers went about inflating wool prices, most notably, sheep were not > >shorn after being washed so the wool was clean, but left to get sweaty and > >dirty to thus increase the weight of the wool and the attempts the > >government had at trying to pull this behavior into line to preserve the > >reputation of the English woolen industry. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 6 23:55:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h873ttr0025847 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 23:55:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h873sBdD000309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:54:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h873roq1017532; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:53:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h873rmq1017521 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:53:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from user-33qtk89.dialup.mindspring.com ([199.174.209.9] helo=pavilion) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vqcV-00050M-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 06 Sep 2003 20:53:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c374f3$f456a5a0$09d1aec7@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030906233948.B61534-100000@shell.siscom.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: proclamations regarding caps, was: Re: 16th C hats Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:56:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Things must come in threes, because last week I ordered a second hand copy of this book and am awaiting its delivery as I type. Good to know its of some value. I found in the bibliography of an article on lead seals by David Egan. The reprint is from the 70's and not all that pricey either. Did you find the statute about knitted hats by chance? And could you tell me a bit more about Early English Books Online. I assume it is a subscription only service? What sort of institutions are likely to have access to it? Thanks Lisa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Drea Leed" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: proclamations regarding caps, was: Re: 16th C hats > I printed out a copy of this from EEBO--fascinating stuff. I found several > proclamations relating to the textile industries on Early English Books > Online, if you can get to it. > > Drea > > On Sat, 6 Sep 2003, michael tartaglio wrote: > > > > > Hi, All. The belowmentioned underhanded tricks are amply mentioned in > > the facsimile book that I just picked up, entitled "A Declaration of the > > Estate of Clothing" by John May, dated 1613. The book is full of the > > technical language of cloth production, with terms such as Alneger, > > forels, Lancashire Plaines, Devonshire kersies, pitch in the loome, > > Northern Dozens, and other such items. There is a section on dying in > > which it is implied that many colors cannot be truly gotten without an > > underdying of woad. All in all, an interesting book. Cheers, Mike T. > > > > > > > >The whole story develops when you start to read these in chronological order > > >and you can begin to see all the devious ways and means that 16th century > > >scammers went about inflating wool prices, most notably, sheep were not > > >shorn after being washed so the wool was clean, but left to get sweaty and > > >dirty to thus increase the weight of the wool and the attempts the > > >government had at trying to pull this behavior into line to preserve the > > >reputation of the English woolen industry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 09:12:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87DC0r0011834 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:12:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87DBJdD024654 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:11:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87DATsH029807; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:10:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87DARsH029759 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:10:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h87DAJ18019557; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:10:20 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907090941.038cdec8@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 09:13:07 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com, ElizabethanClothing@yahoogroups.com, SCA-garb@yahoogroups.com From: Brenda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Any speculation on how these stayed up? Do we think they were attached to the main sleeves and hidden by the turnbacks? Did they stay in place by virtue of the wearer not moving at all? Are the exaggerated undersleeves in royal portraits done of stiffer fabrics than the undersleeves of persons of lesser social stature? And are they "false" because they didn't go up all the way, "false" because they were separate from the main garment, "false" because they were not part of the kirtle/underdress???? Brenda, who has scant days to finish at least one Tudor... webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 09:26:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87DQTr0012383 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:26:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87DPkdD024998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:25:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87DPisH004737; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:25:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87DPasH004699 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:25:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-032scfairp0463.dialsprint.net ([168.191.193.209] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19vzXr-0005cG-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 06:25:36 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5B3F0B.5030403@faucet.net> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 09:22:03 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907090941.038cdec8@mail.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Brenda wrote: > Any speculation on how these stayed up? Do we think they were attached > to the main sleeves and hidden by the turnbacks? Did they stay in place > by virtue of the wearer not moving at all? Are the exaggerated > undersleeves in royal portraits done of stiffer fabrics than the > undersleeves of persons of lesser social stature? > > And are they "false" because they didn't go up all the way, "false" > because they were separate from the main garment, "false" because they > were not part of the kirtle/underdress???? I'm replying not because I necessarily have an answer to your question, but because I'm wondering where the question came from. Did you read the words "false undersleeves" somewhere? If so, where? Thanks, Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 10:15:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87EF9r0012955 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:15:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87EEJdD027043 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:14:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87EE2rP021348; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:14:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xmxpita.myway.com (nn7.excitenetwork.com [207.159.120.61]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87EDwrP021286 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:13:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: by xmxpita.myway.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 7AF193968; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:13:50 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Tudor Received: from [206.45.179.136] by mprdmailfe1.nwk.myway.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 10:13:50 EST X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7ae8967e5eed2e074bba3064d2251232 From: "Wendy" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: emmajean@myway.com X-Mailer: PHP Message-Id: <20030907141350.7AF193968@xmxpita.myway.com> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I know that in the 1860's, women wore false sleeves so they could have big puffy forearms but still have tight armoles. The separate sleeve would fasten just above the elbow either with buttons or with the new elastics. The other advantage was that the sleeves could be washed with ease after dipping them in pudding the night before. (As I've learned from experience) This of course could have nothing in common with the Tudor style but it makes sense that the same problem would have a similar solution. Cheers,Emmawww.hecate.ca/emma/--- On Sun 09/07, Brenda < webwarren@earthlink.net > wrote:From: Brenda [mailto: webwarren@earthlink.net]To: h-costume@indra.com, ElizabethanClothing@yahoogroups.com, SCA-garb@yahoogroups.comDate: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 09:13:07 -0400Subject: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment?Any speculation on how these stayed up? Do we think they were attached to the main sleeves and hidden by the turnbacks? Did they stay in place by virtue of the we! arer not moving at all? Are the exaggerated undersleeves in royal portraits done of stiffer fabrics than the undersleeves of persons of lesser social stature?And are they "false" because they didn't go up all the way, "false" because they were separate from the main garment, "false" because they were not part of the kirtle/underdress????Brenda, who has scant days to finish at least one Tudor...webwarren@earthlink.net_______________________________________________h-costume mailing listh-costume@mail.indra.comhttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Introducing My Way - http://www.myway.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 12:20:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87GKsr0013514 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:20:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87GJxdD001866 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:19:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87GJtQ6011271; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:19:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87GJmQ6011230 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 10:19:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip82.124-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.124.82]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229886A6D4 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 09:16:10 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 09:19:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] [Fwd: Tudor rings] Message-ID: <3F5AF825.5898.A98A783@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F5A3D53.4020108@kabelfoon.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Why did the Tudors wear rings everywhere EXCEPT on the middle fingers? > I first thought that Elizabeth I may have had arthritis in that > finger, but then I saw in portraits that her parents and ancestors > also never had rings on that finger. I've been trying to figure this one out too. However, it's not just the Tudors who didn't wear them on the middle finger. It's *really* rare to find *any* time period where they wore them on the middle finger. I think I've seen maybe two paintings total (and I think they were both German. I know one of them was. Cole, do you remember where you found them?) I haven't seen any discussions in letters or literature about why they didn't. And I've looked (as well as having other people look). For years I've challenged many people to see if they can find pictures of pre-17th C European people wearing them on the middle finger. Only Cole Ricci has found even one (and she found them both, in my library of all places.) Everyone else goes to the picture they thought had it, and it turns out to be on a different finger! Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 13:41:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87HfKr0014044 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 13:41:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87HeQdD005944 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:40:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87HeFR4017168; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:40:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hekili.k12.hi.us (hekili.k12.hi.us [165.248.1.200]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87HeCR4017130 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:40:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from makani by hekili.k12.hi.us (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0HKU00063UEY9M@hekili.k12.hi.us> for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 07:40:10 -1000 (HST) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 07:39:38 -1000 (HST) From: annora Subject: Re: [h-cost] [Fwd: Tudor rings] In-reply-to: <3F5AF825.5898.A98A783@localhost> To: Historical Costume Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-X-Sender: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I've been trying to figure this one out too. However, it's not just > the Tudors who didn't wear them on the middle finger. It's *really* > rare to find *any* time period where they wore them on the middle > finger. I think I've seen maybe two paintings total (and I think they > were both German. I know one of them was. I've heard some "urban legend" type explanations but none that were backed by solid research. I always keep an eye out for middle finger pictures and in several years have only found three. Madonna and Child with Saints, Lorenzo Lotto, 1538 in the Uffizi. The Madonna is wearing a narrow band with a single stone on the middle finger of her left hand. No other rings. Portrait of Margrave George the Devout of Brandenburg-Ansbach, Lucas Cranach, 1529. Signet ring on middle finger of left hand; other rings on index finger and pinky of same hand. Portrait of the Elector Joachim I of Brandenburg, Lucas Cranach, 1529. Ring with stone on middle finger of left hand; another ring on ring finger of right hand. Another research project for some future decade... --annora _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 14:16:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87IG7r0014196 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:16:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87I5OdD007008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:05:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87I5K5E028171; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:05:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87I3e5E027436 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:03:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 19w3sx-00007z-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 19:03:39 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:39:12 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] [Fwd: Tudor rings] References: <3F5A3D53.4020108@kabelfoon.nl> <3F5AF825.5898.A98A783@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F5AF825.5898.A98A783@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I remember reading somewhere that it was thought unlucky to wear a ring on the middle finger. I know wedding rings are worn on the fourth because it was thought a vein led directly from there to the heart. Maybe the vein to the middle finger went to the gall bladder or something? ;-) Jean kat@grendal.rain.com wrote > >> Why did the Tudors wear rings everywhere EXCEPT on the middle fingers? >> I first thought that Elizabeth I may have had arthritis in that >> finger, but then I saw in portraits that her parents and ancestors >> also never had rings on that finger. > >I've been trying to figure this one out too. However, it's not just >the Tudors who didn't wear them on the middle finger. It's *really* >rare to find *any* time period where they wore them on the middle >finger. I think I've seen maybe two paintings total (and I think they >were both German. I know one of them was. Cole, do you remember where >you found them?) > >I haven't seen any discussions in letters or literature about why >they didn't. And I've looked (as well as having other people look). > >For years I've challenged many people to see if they can find >pictures of pre-17th C European people wearing them on the middle >finger. Only Cole Ricci has found even one (and she found them both, >in my library of all places.) Everyone else goes to the picture they >thought had it, and it turns out to be on a different finger! > >Kat > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 16:19:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87KJ0r0014646 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:19:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87KIFdD012430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:18:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87KI3QB000594; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:18:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87KHxQB000536 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:17:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h87KHqvP021762 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:17:53 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907160602.00adf220@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 16:20:39 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? In-Reply-To: <200309071800.h87I0x5F026083@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h87KHxQB000536 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Melanie Schuessler wrote: >I'm replying not because I necessarily have an answer to your question, >but because I'm wondering where the question came from. Did you read the >words "false undersleeves" somewhere? If so, where? I'm sure I read it *somewhere*, but as to *where* and its reliability as a source... I couldn't tell you, except that I *probably* read it online somewhere, on someone's costuming or research site. Less-likely, but also possible, would be hardcopy of either Norris or Köhler. Actually, Norris uses the term "false sleeves" and on pp. 220-221 notes: "...The under-sleeve is considerably more bulky and decorated with cuttes. This particular under-sleeve is a separate article of dress -- a FALSE SLEEVE -- which extended only to the elbow, where it was buttoned or tied round the arm..." I'm not sure if this is the first place I saw ther term used, though... (and Köhler does not mention this style at all)... Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 16:31:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87KVcr0014685 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:31:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87KV3dD012922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:31:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h87KV2QB007298; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:31:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h87KUxQB007241 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:30:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OjPhWznoW3bn728fE5Ed1P8=">; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:30:03 PDT Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id H9HJZRG6; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 13:30:03 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 13:29:14 -0700 Message-ID: <20030907.132915.1652.0.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,9-10,12-20,26-27,30-31,33-34,36-37,39-40,44-45,50-53,55-56,60-61,65-66,68-71,74-75,77-78,80-81,85-88 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley cc: Cley@juno.com Subject: [h-cost] wifeliness X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings everyone. I realize this isn't exactly the ideal venue for this thing, but thought you'ld get a kick out of it. The set-up: actual article from a magazine called "Housekeeping Monthly," dated 13 May 1955. Has a large illustration of a man in a suit walking into the kitchen with a newspaper folded under his arm, his two adoring children by his side, and his immaculate wife in her immaculate kitchen cooking a no-doubt immaculate dinner wearing an immaculate smile, and looking pretty enough to go out on the town in her two-inch high heels. (There ya go! Obligatory costume content. ;)) You might want to clear your desk of all things hazardous to your computer. Food and beverage warnings apply. ;) Arlys ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ THE GOOD WIFE'S GUIDE: -Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready, on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have been thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favorite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed. -Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you'll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up you make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh looking. he has just been with a lot of work-weary people. -Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it. -Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. -gather up schoolbooks, toys, paper etc and then run a dustcloth over the tables. -Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give him a lift too. After all, catering for his comfort will provide you with immense persoanl satisfaction. -Prepare the children. take a few mintues to wash the children's hands and faces (if they are small), comb their hair and, if necessary, change their clothes. They are little treasures and he would like to see them playing the part. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer, or vacuum. try to encourage the children to be quiet. -Be happy to see him. -Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him. -Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first--remember--his topics of converstaion are more important than yours. -Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home later or goes outt o dinner, or goes out to other places of entertainment without you. Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be home and relax. -Your goal: Try to make sure your home is a place of peace, order and tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit. -Don't greet him with complaints and problems. -Don't complain if he's late for dinner or even if he stays out all night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through that day. -Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him. -Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice. -Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgement or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him. -A good wife always knows her place. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 20:47:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h880lYr0015821 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:47:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h880kmdD023803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:46:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h880kgRj023507; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:46:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h880kaRk023426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:46:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h880qIAC001644 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:52:18 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F5BD18F.8020709@thibault.org> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:47:11 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax References: <20030907.132915.1652.0.Cley@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20030907.132915.1652.0.Cley@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Check out http://www.snopes.com/language/document/goodwife.htm for their attempts to verify this piece. They haven't been able to document it yet, though that doesn't mean it's not documentable. They do have a picture of the (taken from another source) illustration mentioned. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 21:33:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h881XBr0015974 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:33:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h881WGdD025582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:32:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h881VtkY010874; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h881VqkY010783 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:31:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AB672380076; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:29:11 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AB693A5016C; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:29:13 -0500 Message-ID: <001101c375a9$59a03420$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:34:29 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. Subject: [h-cost] Attention Margo X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Margo, Can you please contact me off-list. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 22:52:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h882qer0016181 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:52:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h882pndD028879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:51:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h882pWuA011099; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:51:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h882pTuA011079 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:51:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-029scfairp0480.dialsprint.net ([63.179.121.226] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wC7k-00060F-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 19:51:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5BFBEC.3070005@faucet.net> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:47:56 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907160602.00adf220@mail.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >> Melanie Schuessler wrote: >> >> Did you read the words "false undersleeves" somewhere? If so, where? Brenda wrote: > > I'm sure I read it *somewhere*, but as to *where* and its reliability as > a source... I couldn't tell you, except that I *probably* read it online > somewhere, on someone's costuming or research site. Less-likely, but > also possible, would be hardcopy of either Norris or Köhler. > > Actually, Norris uses the term "false sleeves" and on pp. 220-221 notes: > > "...The under-sleeve is considerably more bulky and decorated > with cuttes. This particular under-sleeve is a separate article > of dress -- a FALSE SLEEVE -- which extended only to the > elbow, where it was buttoned or tied round the arm..." If you think you read it online, you might try searching the phrase in quotes in Google, then if you find it, checking what the website author's source was. If it was Norris or Kohler, you can probably safely ignore it unless someone else has some evidence for this. I have found both unreliable for construction information, and Norris is particularly notorious for making things up with no evidence to back up his statements. I recently found yet another example of this, where not only did he conjure a drawing of an outfit worn by Queen Elizabeth from a rather short description, he also added things into the description that were not there in the source. (He didn't note the source, of course, but I happened to run across it in my research.) The picture in question is Fig. 576 in my edition of Tudor Costume and Fashion. I am interested in some of the drawings he says are taken from funeral brasses--one of them (fig. 533) looks like the brass was the same pattern as Jane Ingleton (fig. 53 in Ashelford's Visual History of Costume: The Sixteenth Century), but he's changed the proportion of the short puffed sleeves and added a sweet little bow to the top of the French hood as well as omitting the hanging sleeves. He's a great one for editing, is Norris. I don't trust him an inch. That's all on the negative side, of course. On the positive side, I have only one helpful thing to offer (as unfortunately this is not my primary period of study). An inventory of the Lisles' household goods, probably made in 1542 upon Arthur Lisle's death (though of this I am not certain) lists many pairs of sleeves as separate items, such as Item xviij payer of Aglettes of gold upon ij payer of Sleves of clothe of gold Item viijC [800!] pearles upon a payre of Slevys of Crymsyn Sattyn Item liiij peces of gold goldsmythes worke upon a payre of Slevys of blewe velvet Item ij payer of slevys of tawney velvet Item a payer of Slevis of Crymsen velvet enbrodryd etc., etc. The inventory is in volume six of The Lisle Letters (not the abridged version!) edited by Muriel St. Clare Byrne, in appendix E. What I gather from this is that the sleeves are detachable. How and where they are attached is not clear from this particular set of data, but perhaps someone else has found a reference. If I had to guess, I would guess they are attached to the kirtle that is worn under the gown in the same way that the kirtle sleeves are attached in a much later example (page 109 of Arnold's Patterns of Fashion), but that's not research--just guesswork. Best of luck, Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 22:54:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h882sMr0016185 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:54:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h882qTdD028925 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:52:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h882qTuA011516; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:52:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h882pmuA011211 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:51:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from comcast.net (pcp04599099pcs.elictc01.md.comcast.net[68.55.87.127]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003090802514201400fesbae> (Authid: cozit); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 02:51:43 +0000 Message-ID: <3F5BEF04.4080104@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:52:52 -0400 From: Cozit / Liz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? References: <200309071801.h87I105F026098@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200309071801.h87I105F026098@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO As I'm still learning about Tudor dress myself, I can't answer for all cases, however... The gentlewomen of the "household" that is the living history re-enactment group at the Maryland Renaissance Festival have removable under/fore/false sleeves. The material on one set is stiffer, the other is probably not as stiff as a decent wool would be, though more than my linen dress. There are 3 ties on theirs (though at a guess there are likely other ways to make them). All tie only to each other... one at the wrist, one below and one above the elbow. Part of what holds them up is friction against the chemise/smock. Part is the ties and fabric itself (though they do slide a bit, time to time). If you aren't doing anything strenuous in them, they'll stay put easily. Our ladies tend to wear them only when it gets cooler/cold, and/or when demonstrating "what is worn under all that". One of the reasons for the tie-on/removable sleeves is that the cut of the attatched sleeves of the overdress is snug enough that it would be impossible to get that much of the heavier and more ornate fabric that the sleeves are made of through the arms' top. At a guess, I'd suppose you could put a loop into the arm to tie to, or pin it in if the above didn't work though. -Elisabeth (waiting for a more definative answer, but here's a start...) >From: Brenda > > >Any speculation on how these stayed up? Do we think they were attached to >the main sleeves and hidden by the turnbacks? Did they stay in place by >virtue of the wearer not moving at all? Are the exaggerated undersleeves in royal portraits done of stiffer fabrics than the undersleeves of persons of lesser social stature? > >And are they "false" because they didn't go up all the way, "false" because they were separate from the main garment, "false" because they were not part of the kirtle/underdress???? > > > >Brenda, who has scant days to finish at least one Tudor... >webwarren@earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 23:04:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8834vr0016213 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:04:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8834JdD029411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:04:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8833pM8015988; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:03:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8833mM8015963 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:03:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-029scfairp0480.dialsprint.net ([63.179.121.226] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wCJf-0006fo-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:03:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5BFED0.3010608@faucet.net> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:00:16 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907160602.00adf220@mail.earthlink.net> <3F5BFBEC.3070005@faucet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I wrote: > > If I had to guess, I > would guess they are attached to the kirtle that is worn under the gown > in the same way that the kirtle sleeves are attached in a much later > example (page 109 of Arnold's Patterns of Fashion), but that's not > research--just guesswork. Cozit / Liz wrote: > > One of the reasons for the tie-on/removable sleeves is that the cut of > the attatched sleeves of the overdress is snug enough that it would be > impossible to get that much of the heavier and more ornate fabric that > the sleeves are made of through the arms' top. Hypothesizing again here: you could make the undersleeves such that the lower portion was made of ornate/heavy fabric and the upper portion was made from something much lighter and thinner, fitted to the arm so as not to create bulk under the gown sleeves. Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 23:37:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h883bor0016373 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:37:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h883b6dD000837 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:37:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h883atM8029227; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:36:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail03.powweb.com (mail03.powweb.com [63.251.216.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h883aqM8029192 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:36:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from megan2 (pcp793473pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.50.52.14]) by mail03.powweb.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0154015D07 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:48:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Megan M." To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Attention Penny Ladnier Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:40:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001101c375a9$59a03420$0400a8c0@comcast.net> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Penny, can you please contact me? I signed up for your underpinnings class (obligatory costume content) on the website Friday night, and have not gotten a confirmation or request for payment yet. I thought the registration form was working, but I wonder if it is still not, also email to Stephen Bergdahl bounced. Sorry to post on an open forum, but I thought maybe your email was messed up too. Since the class starts on Monday, which is in 20 minutes, I figured I'd better try to contact you. Thanks, -Megan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 7 23:57:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h883vkr0016436 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:57:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h883uqdD001631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:56:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h883ukTX007239; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:56:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h883uhTX007204 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:56:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/On22jNPl1k8n+DrVsrcvJcc=">; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:56:06 PDT Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id H9JCJGNX; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:56:06 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:52:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax Message-ID: <20030907.205525.1400.1.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,6-21 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO All I know is that someone found it and stuck it on the bulletin board where my husband works. In any case, it's a howl. Arlys On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:47:11 -0400 Cynthia Virtue writes: > Check out http://www.snopes.com/language/document/goodwife.htm for > their > attempts to verify this piece. They haven't been able to document > it > yet, though that doesn't mean it's not documentable. They do have a > picture of the (taken from another source) illustration mentioned. > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 00:12:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h884CUr0016466 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:12:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h884BqdD002271 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:11:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h884BVTX013193; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:11:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h884BTTX013177 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:11:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-007-116.jps.net ([216.119.7.116] helo=pavilion) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wDNA-0000Rl-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 21:11:28 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c375bf$98a8aba0$740777d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030907.205525.1400.1.Cley@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:13:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Acutally, it sounds like they got it from the I Love Lucy Episode where Desi is ignoring Lucy so Ethel suggests she read the newly published marriage advice manual that's just arrived in the book of the month club on how to get the honeymoon back. Very, Very similar advice in that book, and of course you can image what happed when Lucy tried to follow it!!! Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia J Ley" To: Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax > All I know is that someone found it and stuck it on the bulletin board > where my husband works. In any case, it's a howl. > > Arlys > > On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 20:47:11 -0400 Cynthia Virtue > writes: > > Check out http://www.snopes.com/language/document/goodwife.htm for > > their > > attempts to verify this piece. They haven't been able to document > > it > > yet, though that doesn't mean it's not documentable. They do have a > > picture of the (taken from another source) illustration mentioned. > > > > -- > > Cynthia Virtue and/or > > Cynthia du Pré Argent > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 01:25:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h885P9r0016597 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:25:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h885OMdD004826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:24:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h885OFvY009631; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:24:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt4.ihug.co.nz (grunt4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.44]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h885OBvY009599 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:24:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p21-nas12.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.205.21] by grunt4.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19wEVT-0005xA-00; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 17:24:08 +1200 Message-ID: <005401c375c9$6e008530$15cdadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907160602.00adf220@mail.earthlink.net><3F5BFBEC.3070005@faucet.net> <3F5BFED0.3010608@faucet.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:24:07 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Hypothesizing again here: you could make the undersleeves such that the > lower portion was made of ornate/heavy fabric and the upper portion was > made from something much lighter and thinner, fitted to the arm so as > not to create bulk under the gown sleeves. That doesn't help getting it the through the outer gown sleeve though does it;) I'm sure Jean Hunnisett used the false sleeve theory for her constuction (for stage and screen as it is the shapes are really nice) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 01:32:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h885WEr0016626 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 01:32:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h885VbdD005080 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:31:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h885VavY012002; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:31:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h885VXvY011988 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:31:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.mn.rr.com (CPE-65-29-24-214.mn.rr.com [65.29.24.214])h885VUrw029983 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:31:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20030908002705.031f1b20@pop-server.mn.rr.com> X-Sender: dannw@pop-server.mn.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 00:35:04 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? In-Reply-To: <3F5BFED0.3010608@faucet.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907160602.00adf220@mail.earthlink.net> <3F5BFBEC.3070005@faucet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 11:00 PM 9/7/2003 -0500, you wrote: >I wrote: >>If I had to guess, I >>would guess they are attached to the kirtle that is worn under the gown >>in the same way that the kirtle sleeves are attached in a much later >>example (page 109 of Arnold's Patterns of Fashion), but that's not >>research--just guesswork. > >Cozit / Liz wrote: > > > > One of the reasons for the tie-on/removable sleeves is that the cut of > > the attatched sleeves of the overdress is snug enough that it would be > > impossible to get that much of the heavier and more ornate fabric that > > the sleeves are made of through the arms' top. > >Hypothesizing again here: you could make the undersleeves such that the >lower portion was made of ornate/heavy fabric and the upper portion was >made from something much lighter and thinner, fitted to the arm so as not >to create bulk under the gown sleeves. > >Melanie Schuessler Hey Mel et al, Well, I have 10 references to "foresleeves" in the 16th century wills I work with. 3 pair were willed by Elizabethe Barton in 1543 4 pair were willed by Katheren Bracye in 1543 2 pair were willed by Joone Wharnebe in 1543 and "a payr of fore sclevys of Flaunderes makyng" willed by George Symonde in 1544. Does this help the sleeve debate? Cheers, Danielle who is way behind on her email as usual... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 02:15:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h886Fvr0022477 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 02:15:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h886ELdD006415 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:14:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h886EKcE026291; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:14:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.187]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h886EHcE026276 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 00:14:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-64-175-40-1.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@64.175.40.1 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 2003 06:14:16 -0000 Message-ID: <003a01c375d0$6db5bc60$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:14:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] 18th c.-ish print fabric at JoAnn's X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h886Fvr0022477 Status: RO Amazingly enough, I actually found something interesting at my local JoAnn's today! They had a (relatively) big section of cotton prints they were calling either vegetable prints or vegetable dyes (can't remember which). They are very Indian-esque cotton prints done in vegetable dyes, and they look surprising like some 18th century prints I've found, both in terms of motif and color scheme. I'm not sure if your local store will have them, as the saleswoman said they've had them at my store for about 5 months and they haven't sold well (they were on sale at my store for $4/yd). But keep your eye out next time you're there (or call first)! - Kendra http://demode.tweedlebop.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 06:46:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88AkKr0022413 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:46:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88AjKdD013595 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 04:45:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88Aiqba014241; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 04:44:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta06ps.bigpond.com (mta06ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.138]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88Ailba014215 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 04:44:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from clarke ([144.135.25.84]) by mta06ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 mta06ps May 23 2002 23:53:28) with SMTP id HKW5UD00.8YL for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:44:37 +1000 Received: from cvpp-p-144-134-113-69.prem.tmns.net.au ([144.134.113.69]) by psmam06.bigpond.com(MAM REL_3_3_2d 110/4205267); 08 Sep 2003 20:44:34 Message-ID: <004a01c375f6$2d8a7880$45718690@clarke> From: "Claire Clarke" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907090941.038cdec8@mail.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:44:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brenda" To: ; ; Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 11:13 PM Subject: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? > Any speculation on how these stayed up? Do we think they were attached to > the main sleeves and hidden by the turnbacks? Did they stay in place by > virtue of the wearer not moving at all? Are the exaggerated undersleeves in > royal portraits done of stiffer fabrics than the undersleeves of persons of > lesser social stature? > > >From experience, if the false sleeves fit closely enough about the wrist and are made of stiff enough materials, they don't need to be attached to anything to stay up. A thing I have noticed about some of the earlier versions of these sleeves (say on the More family portrait) is that they seem to be made of softer, plain material with fine pintucks running the length of the sleeve. Claire _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 08:07:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88C7Er0022575 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:07:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88C6LdD015614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:06:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88C5ndN009294; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:05:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88C5kdN009272 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:05:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-001scfairp0179.dialsprint.net ([63.184.192.179] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wKm9-0004pt-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 05:05:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5C7DD5.7040101@faucet.net> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 08:02:13 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907160602.00adf220@mail.earthlink.net><3F5BFBEC.3070005@faucet.net> <3F5BFED0.3010608@faucet.net> <005401c375c9$6e008530$15cdadcb@michaela> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I wrote: >>Hypothesizing again here: you could make the undersleeves such that the >>lower portion was made of ornate/heavy fabric and the upper portion was >>made from something much lighter and thinner, fitted to the arm so as >>not to create bulk under the gown sleeves. michaela wrote: > That doesn't help getting it the through the outer gown sleeve though does > it;) Well, it depends on how skin-tight you make the gown sleeve and how fitted you make the upper part of the undersleeve. It also helps if the gown sleeve is lined in some slippery silk. Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 09:24:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88DO5r0023880 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:24:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88DN2dD018236 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:23:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88DMjKU007504; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:22:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ureach.com (mail.ureach.com [63.150.151.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88DMhKU007492 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:22:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www21.ureach.com (www21.ureach.com [172.16.2.49]) by ureach.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA30911 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:22:43 -0400 Received: (from nobody@localhost) by www21.ureach.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA11959; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:22:43 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:22:43 -0400 Message-Id: <200309081322.JAA11959@www21.ureach.com> Received: from [68.19.104.203] by www21.ureach.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:22:43 GMT To: "Brenda" From: Teena Kessinger Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-vsuite-type: e X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Mine have two ties at the back edge (the part which doesn't show. I tie those to close the opening and the sleeves just stay up on their own. The wrist opening is somewhat snug on my wrist too, which helps. I have no trouble at all with them and do not pin or anything else. Juliane ---- On Sun, 07 Sep 2003, Brenda (webwarren@earthlink.net) wrote: > Any speculation on how these stayed up? Do we think they were attached to > the main sleeves and hidden by the turnbacks? Did they stay in place by > virtue of the wearer not moving at all? Are the exaggerated undersleeves in > royal portraits done of stiffer fabrics than the undersleeves of persons of > lesser social stature? > > And are they "false" because they didn't go up all the way, "false" because > they were separate from the main garment, "false" because they were not > part of the kirtle/underdress???? > > > > Brenda, who has scant days to finish at least one Tudor... > webwarren@earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 10:04:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88E4Or0023993 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:04:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88E3OdD020895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:03:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88E30bh026248; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:03:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pro5.mtco.com (pro5.mtco.com [207.179.200.251]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h88E2ubh026184 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:02:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 12706 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2003 14:02:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO y3r8b8) (207.179.215.215) by ns.mtco.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 2003 14:02:56 -0000 Message-ID: <001001c37612$260ed120$d7d7b3cf@y3r8b8> From: "Sarah Jane Edwards" <1warcry@mtco.com> To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030907.132915.1652.0.Cley@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:04:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't know if it is a hoax or not, but it's a sweet list. I'm going to print it out and keep it so I can treat my husband like a king when I do get married. :) ~Sarah ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia J Ley" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 3:29 PM Subject: [h-cost] wifeliness > Greetings everyone. I realize this isn't exactly the ideal venue for this > thing, but thought you'ld get a kick out of it. > > The set-up: actual article from a magazine called "Housekeeping Monthly," > dated 13 May 1955. Has a large illustration of a man in a suit walking > into the kitchen with a newspaper folded under his arm, his two adoring > children by his side, and his immaculate wife in her immaculate kitchen > cooking a no-doubt immaculate dinner wearing an immaculate smile, and > looking pretty enough to go out on the town in her two-inch high heels. > (There ya go! Obligatory costume content. ;)) > > You might want to clear your desk of all things hazardous to your > computer. Food and beverage warnings apply. ;) > > Arlys > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > THE GOOD WIFE'S GUIDE: > > -Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a > delicious meal ready, on time for his return. This is a way of letting > him know that you have been thinking about him and are concerned about > his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a > good meal (especially his favorite dish) is part of the warm welcome > needed. > > -Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you'll be refreshed when he > arrives. Touch up you make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh > looking. he has just been with a lot of work-weary people. > > -Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day > may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it. > > -Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the > house just before your husband arrives. > > -gather up schoolbooks, toys, paper etc and then run a dustcloth over the > tables. > > -Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire > for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of > rest and order, and it will give him a lift too. After all, catering for > his comfort will provide you with immense persoanl satisfaction. > > -Prepare the children. take a few mintues to wash the children's hands > and faces (if they are small), comb their hair and, if necessary, change > their clothes. They are little treasures and he would like to see them > playing the part. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the > washer, dryer, or vacuum. try to encourage the children to be quiet. > > -Be happy to see him. > > -Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please > him. > > -Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but > the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk > first--remember--his topics of converstaion are more important than > yours. > > -Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home later or goes outt > o dinner, or goes out to other places of entertainment without you. > Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very > real need to be home and relax. > > -Your goal: Try to make sure your home is a place of peace, order and > tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit. > > -Don't greet him with complaints and problems. > > -Don't complain if he's late for dinner or even if he stays out all > night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through > that day. > > -Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have > him lie down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him. > > -Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, > soothing and pleasant voice. > > -Don't ask him questions about his actions or question his judgement or > integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will > always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no > right to question him. > > -A good wife always knows her place. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 10:06:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88E6sr0024004 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:06:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88E6BdD021150 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:06:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88E69bh028403; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:06:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14007.mail.yahoo.com (web14007.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h88E67bh028380 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030908140551.69595.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14007.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:05:51 BST Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:05:51 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F5BFBEC.3070005@faucet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Marian: "You are not well, I promise you, Your forsleeves are not pind (fie, fie) And all your hed-geere stands awry. Give me the flowers. Goe in for shame, And quickly see you mend the same." ------- This looks like the forsleeves were a seperate detachable item probably pinned to the inside of the oversleeve.------------------------- Quote from 'The Downfall of Robert, Earle of Huntington', Afterward called 'Robin Hood of merrie Sherwodde: with his love to chaste Matilda, the Lord Fitzwaters Daughter, afterwarde his faire Maide Marian'. Acted by the Right Honourable the Earle of Nothingham, Lord high Admirall of England, his servants. 1601. Rptd. by Collier, J. P., 1828, and in Hazlitt’s Dodsley, vol. VIII. (With Chettle.) The Death of Robert, Earle of Huntington. Otherwise called Robin Hood of merrie Sherwodde: with the lamentable Tragedie of chaste Matilda, his faire maid Marian, poysoned at Dunmowe by King John. Acted by the Right Honourable the Earle of Nothingham, Lord high Admirall of England, his servants. 1601. Rptd. by Collier, J. P., 1828, and in Hazlitt’s Dodsley, vol. VIII. For the sources of these two plays, consult Ruckdeschel, A., Die Quellen des Dramas The Downfall and the Death of Robert, Earle of Huntington, otherwise called Robin Hood, Erlangen, 1897. ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 10:15:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88EF0r0024026 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:15:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88ECxdD021605 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:12:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88ECwbh002209; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:12:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14003.mail.yahoo.com (web14003.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.94]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h88ECmbh002118 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:12:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030908141247.52662.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14003.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:12:47 BST Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:12:47 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <200309081322.JAA11959@www21.ureach.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I made a pair with a wrist closing that I 'stuffed' slightly to give them enough body to stay up on their own. They looked very much like the painting of Princess Elizabeth when finished. --- Teena Kessinger wrote: > Mine have two ties at the back edge (the part which > doesn't > show. I tie those to close the opening and the > sleeves just stay > up on their own. The wrist opening is somewhat snug > on my wrist > too, which helps. I have no trouble at all with them > and do not > pin or anything else. > > Juliane > > ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 10:30:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88EUrr0024099 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:30:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88EU1dD022602 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:30:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88EU0bh011492; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:30:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88ETubh011421 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:29:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.ad.32e320fc (4246) for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:29:48 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:29:48 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th c.-ish print fabric at JoAnn's To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/8/03 2:14:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kendra@tweedlebop.com writes: > They had a (relatively) big section of cotton prints they were calling > either vegetable prints or vegetable dyes (can't remember which). Funny, I KNEW you'd be talking about these before I read on. They are pretty good, I think. Especially the ones that look blockprinted. But these all have a 19th century look to me. Some would make a great 1830-50s dress. There are some East Indian looking ones that are 18th century-esque, if a little dense pattern-wise. I bought some. I planned, in my head, an 1780-90 gown for it....middle/uppermiddle class. What this line of fabrics does definitely have is character. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 10:49:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88Engr0024176 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:49:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88EmqdD023684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:48:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88Empbh023000; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:48:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.9]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88Emlbh022957 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:48:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Imedia5043 ([82.44.203.167]) by smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:48:46 +0100 Message-ID: <008301c37618$39933ff0$0401a8c0@Imedia5043> From: "Dawn Wood" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030907.132915.1652.0.Cley@juno.com> <3F5BD18F.8020709@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:48:11 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Sep 2003 14:48:46.0045 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E3D78D0:01C37618] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have a couple of pre 60's household manuals and this is pretty much what they say dawn > Check out http://www.snopes.com/language/document/goodwife.htm for their > attempts to verify this piece. They haven't been able to document it > yet, though that doesn't mean it's not documentable. They do have a > picture of the (taken from another source) illustration mentioned. > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 10:55:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88EtGr0024204 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:55:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88EsJdD024052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:54:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88EsHbh026511; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:54:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h88EsAbh026422 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:54:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 82981 invoked by uid 1005); 8 Sep 2003 14:54:05 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.226792 secs); 08 Sep 2003 14:54:05 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.226792 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 8 Sep 2003 14:54:04 -0000 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:54:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: proclamations regarding caps, was: Re: 16th C hats In-Reply-To: <000801c374f3$f456a5a0$09d1aec7@pavilion> Message-ID: <20030908105135.W86080-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Things must come in threes, because last week I ordered a second hand copy > of this book and am awaiting its delivery as I type. Good to know its of > some value. I found in the bibliography of an article on lead seals by > David Egan. The reprint is from the 70's and not all that pricey either. > Did you find the statute about knitted hats by chance? And could you tell > me a bit more about Early English Books Online. I assume it is a > subscription only service? What sort of institutions are likely to have > access to it? > Larger university libraries may have a subscription....EEBO is an online, searchable database of thousands of pre-18th (?) century printed texts. You can print out the text, or facsimile images of the pages. The Folger Library has a subscription, and I had a great time looking through the scads of books and articles and proclamations they had. I didn't do any searching for knitted hats, but odds are they do have stuff about headwear in there as well. Good luck, Drea _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 11:13:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FDEr0024274 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:13:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FBVdD025585 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:11:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FBUkC008990; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:11:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt28.cluster1.charter.net (remt28.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FBQkC008919 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:11:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [68.185.166.53] (HELO laptop) by remt28.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with SMTP id 147623546 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:11:18 -0400 Message-ID: <004301c3761b$5254f580$35a6b944@mad.chartermi.net> From: To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030907.132915.1652.0.Cley@juno.com> <3F5BD18F.8020709@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:10:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia Virtue" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax > Check out http://www.snopes.com/language/document/goodwife.htm for their > attempts to verify this piece. They haven't been able to document it > yet, though that doesn't mean it's not documentable. They do have a > picture of the (taken from another source) illustration mentioned. > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 11:18:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FIjr0024294 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:18:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FGtdD026137 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:16:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FGskC013010; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:16:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt29.cluster1.charter.net (remt29.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FGqkC012938 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:16:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [68.185.166.53] (HELO laptop) by remt29.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with SMTP id 138307985 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:16:45 -0400 Message-ID: <004801c3761c$1527d640$35a6b944@mad.chartermi.net> From: To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030907.132915.1652.0.Cley@juno.com> <3F5BD18F.8020709@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:15:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, while I haven't seen the original as posted, my Betty Crocker New Picture Cookbook from 1961 has gems such as "The thoughtful wife has a simple beverage (cold in summer, hot in winter) ready for her weary husband when he comes home at night. The simplest are fruit or vegetable juices served in small fruit juice glasses." And quite a few of the illustrations are on the theme of husband coming home in a suit and tie with briefcase while wife is in the kitchen cooking (in sweetheart neckline dress, pearls, and, well, they don't usually show the feet, but I would have to imagine they would be perfect 2" pumps ;-) Of course, it *is* a cookbook! :-) So, while some of the things listed are a little above and beyond...there are others that were probably very close to being advice of the day. ********************** Rebecca Schmitt aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot BRF FOF; Guilde of St. Lawrence A room without books is like a body without a soul ---Cicero lotsofteapots@charter.net ********************** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 11:33:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FXGr0024396 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:33:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FV9dD027571 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:31:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FV8kC024993; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:31:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88FV3kC024925 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:31:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from patriot.net (support.patriot.net [209.249.176.6]) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.8/8.12.3) with SMTP id h88FV2xE004677 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:31:02 -0400 Message-Id: <200309081531.h88FV2xE004677@jefferson.patriot.net> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:27:06 -0000 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax From: X-Mailer: TWIG 2.3.2 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The part that strikes me as ridiculous is that she can take 15 minutes to freshen up, while simultaneuously cleaning up the clutter, making the children presentable, calming them down, etc. Even in the idealistic 1950s there was logic, and that doesn't fit! -Carol _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 12:27:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GRdr0024526 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:27:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GQcdD003356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:26:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GQaOr012716; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:26:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GQXOr012672 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:26:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip145.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.145]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B54E36AAD2 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:22:54 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 09:26:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness - May be a hoax Message-ID: <3F5C4B3B.16629.185EB27@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <008301c37618$39933ff0$0401a8c0@Imedia5043> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I have a couple of pre 60's household manuals and this is pretty much > what they say Heavens, this sounds a lot like what even books from the 60s and early 70s would sometimes say (although it was no longer mainstream by then.) Just look at books like Fascinating Womanhood and Fascinating Girlhood (which were foisted upon me in the late 60s. Somehow I don't think I'll ever be a "Dora" type and thankfully my husband wouldn't like it if I was!) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 12:33:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GXrr0024542 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:33:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GX6dD004508 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:33:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GX5Or018498; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:33:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GX2Or018467 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:33:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.133.149.123] (pm7-123.eos.net [205.133.149.123]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GWwGI015813 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:32:58 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 12:26:02 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200309080531.h885VkvZ012120@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver running MimeDefang and SPAMAssassin Subject: [h-cost] Re: the good wife X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm not going to comment on the whole article -- that would be more trouble than it's worth -- but I do want to say that my mother, who just turned 70, remembers her mother and all the women on the block doing their housework in the morning in housework clothes, putting dinner on, and then changing to nice dresses and putting on makeup before their husbands came home. The way she has told me, the women thought of housework as their job, and they did it like a job, working very hard at it. Then they freshened up and got out of their "work clothes" to enjoy the rest of the evening with their husbands. She says that in the summer the women would all come out on their porches and sit in their dresses. She has never told me about being freshened up herself! Many days -- including today -- I do housework in old sweats, but shower and change into better-looking clothes when I'm done. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 12:49:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88Gn7r0024587 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:49:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GlvdD005982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:47:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88GltOr001620; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:47:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h88GlkOr001436 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:47:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 26372 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2003 16:47:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ) (209.142.2.50) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 2003 16:47:45 -0000 Received: from 162.119.64.111 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com) by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <57328.162.119.64.111.1063039665.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 09:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor 'false undersleeves' attachment? From: To: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20030908002705.031f1b20@pop-server.mn.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030907160602.00adf220@mail.earthlink.net> <3F5BFBEC.3070005@faucet.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20030908002705.031f1b20@pop-server.mn.rr.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Hey Mel et al, > > Well, I have 10 references to "foresleeves" in the 16th century wills I > work with. > 3 pair were willed by Elizabethe Barton in 1543 > 4 pair were willed by Katheren Bracye in 1543 > 2 pair were willed by Joone Wharnebe in 1543 > and "a payr of fore sclevys of Flaunderes makyng" willed by George > Symonde in 1544. > > Does this help the sleeve debate? When I made my Tudor years ago, I was convinced that they were separate because at least one source showed the sleeve to have a definite corner near the bony part of the elbow. When I made mine, I didn't stuff them (although I probably should have) and I used three ties that were hidden on the inside of the bell-shaped oversleeve. I put the ties only on the top of the undersleeve near the bend in the elbow. It worked for movement and just made more sense. Hope that helps! Diana _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 14:34:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88IYbr0024971 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:34:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88IWctS005901 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:32:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88IWYVB001872; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:32:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88IWUVB001825 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:32:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 17-192.tnt-3.harrisburg.supernet.com ([64.41.17.192] helo=[64.41.16.49]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wQoP-0007N8-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 14:32:30 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200309081648.h88GmLOt002007@net.indra.com> References: <200309081648.h88GmLOt002007@net.indra.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:30:42 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: fastusminimus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:48 AM -0600 9/8/03, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: >Amazingly enough, I actually found something interesting at my local >JoAnn's today! > >They had a (relatively) big section of cotton prints they were >calling either vegetable prints or vegetable dyes (can't remember >which). They are very Indian-esque cotton prints done in vegetable >dyes, and they look surprising like some 18th century prints I've >found, both in terms of motif and color scheme. > >I'm not sure if your local store will have them, as the saleswoman >said they've had them at my store for about 5 months and they >haven't sold well (they were on sale at my store for $4/yd). But >keep your eye Well in the store in Belair, MD they have sold rather well , and not just to me. Now to get the courage up to make the stays so I can make the dress ( Stays 4, figure 0)... Pity they haven't done well, it would be nice to see more of them. Ta Carol _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 17:23:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88LNor0025516 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:23:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88LM1tS021744 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:22:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88LLvu6002570; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:21:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.mackie.com (mail1.mackie.com [12.144.237.151]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88LLpu6002481 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:21:52 -0600 (MDT) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:40:58 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Textile History Volume 19 No.1 Thread-Index: AcN2SYHNjs01c+HxEdetKQCw0LEy7w== From: "Colleen McDonald" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h88LLpu6002481 Subject: [h-cost] Textile History Volume 19 No.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Does anyone on the list have this issue handy? I had a lead on a goldwork article with a title something like "Metal Thread Analysis" in this issue that I am trying to track down. The title of the article is apparently incorrect (according to the ILL librarian), so I'm trying to get the right title. I haven't been able to locate an online, accessible index of the articles either, so I'm hoping someone out there can help me out. Thanks for any help! Best regards, Colleen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 17:26:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88LQ6r0025523 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:26:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88LPItS022155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:25:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88LPHu6005660; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:25:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from janus.directcon.net (janus.directcon.net [206.170.184.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88LPCu6005596 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:25:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dnyeaqvf (r14b111.directcon.net [209.79.208.111]) by janus.directcon.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h88LSjv18437; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:28:45 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030908142351.011124f0@pop.directcon.net> X-Sender: margospatterns@pop.directcon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 14:23:51 -0700 To: Historical Costume , From: Margo Anderson In-Reply-To: <57328.162.119.64.111.1063039665.squirrel@webmail.inreach.c om> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20030908002705.031f1b20@pop-server.mn.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030907160602.00adf220@mail.earthlink.net> <3F5BFBEC.3070005@faucet.net> <5.0.0.25.2.20030908002705.031f1b20@pop-server.mn.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [h-cost] Shoe Question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Can anyone tell me why "pumps" are called that? Margo "One Tough Costumer" www.margospatterns.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 18:03:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88M3Ur0025720 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:03:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88M2itS025459 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:02:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88M2emK004347; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:02:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.traknet.com ([64.9.82.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88M2ZmK004259 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:02:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from WorkingGirl ([64.9.82.171]) by mail.traknet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58579U2500L250S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:16:23 -0400 From: "Margaret Baird " To: Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:02:28 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c37654$e5ab8720$ab520940@WorkingGirl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200309080531.h885Vkva012120@net.indra.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, fingers and rings X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I can give a partial answer to this riddle. It has to do with the ancient "poetic" meanings of fingers! The fingers are named fore finger(for the foremost god of the celtic world), fool's finger (for Saturn, the Winter soltice fool who is beheaded but rises unharmed), leach or ring finger, and oracular or ear finger( poet's and bards used the pinkie to plug their ears when remembering stories or when writing new verses. The thumb is the phallus finger, rings of iron were worn on this finger as a nod to Vulcan, Venus' husband. (Thus when Shakespear has Romeo and Mecruccio (sorry, shakespear is packed so I'm not getting this exactly right) in verbal battle with What's his name and one of them says, "Do you bite your thumb at me Sir?" "Yes I bite my thumb at you." They were being very rude and telling each other to SMD. The four finger on the left hand was the least used finger and therefore the safest to wear precious stones on, also it has a small, visible vein leading to the heart and therefore links Apollo (heart, gold) to that finger. However to wear a ring on the fool's finger was to indicate hope of resurection or reincarnation in the ancient world, something that Christian Europe would have frowned upon, after all they put their hopes of that in the tithe basket every Sunday. For more on this subject read chapter 11 of The White Goddess by Robert Graves. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 19:44:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88Ni5r0026106 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:44:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88NhYtS006229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:43:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88NhLR9022897; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:43:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h88NhHR9022856 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:43:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-005scfairp0233.dialsprint.net ([63.184.232.233] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wVfA-00076I-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 16:43:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5D214F.8080003@faucet.net> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:39:43 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? References: <20030908140551.69595.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: > Marian: "You are not well, I promise you, Your > forsleeves are not pind <...> Acted by the Right Honourable the Earle of > Nothingham, Lord high Admirall of England, his > servants. 1601. This is a very interesting (and entertaining) quote, but the large Tudor undersleeves had been out of style for almost 50 years by 1601--I'm not sure that's what the quote is referring to. Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 20:31:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890VDr0026335 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:31:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890UWtS012604 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:30:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890UVuJ024673; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:30:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890UQuK024639 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:30:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h890Uq6s012090 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:30:52 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h890UquE012088 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:30:52 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:30:52 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200309081648.h88GmLOt002007@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309082030.52089.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Monday 08 September 2003 02:30 pm, fastusminimus wrote: > At 10:48 AM -0600 9/8/03, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > >Amazingly enough, I actually found something interesting at my local > >JoAnn's today! > > > >They had a (relatively) big section of cotton prints they were > >calling either vegetable prints or vegetable dyes (can't remember > >which). It makes a *big* difference, though! :-) I'd bet it was vegetable prints, based on what I know of JoAnn's--though I'd like to be wrong on this one! > > They are very Indian-esque cotton prints done in vegetable > >dyes, and they look surprising like some 18th century prints I've > >found, both in terms of motif and color scheme. That's a good thing, whether we're talking vegetable prints done with vegetable dyes or now. [snip] -- Cathy Raymond "There are only two ways of telling the complete truth--anonymously and posthumously." Thomas Sowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 20:42:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890gAr0026367 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:42:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890fWtS013352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:41:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890fVuJ000882; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:41:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890fQuK000834 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:41:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h890fr6s012144 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:41:53 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h890fq1g012142 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:41:52 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:41:52 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030907.132915.1652.0.Cley@juno.com> <001001c37612$260ed120$d7d7b3cf@y3r8b8> In-Reply-To: <001001c37612$260ed120$d7d7b3cf@y3r8b8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309082041.52522.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Monday 08 September 2003 10:04 am, Sarah Jane Edwards wrote: > I don't know if it is a hoax or not, but it's a sweet list. I'm going to > print it out and keep it so I can treat my husband like a king when I do > get married. :) Uh, sure. It's a wonderful goal to try to make a cosy loving home for one's spouse (especially if you opt to be a stay-at-home spouse). Just don't beat yourself up if, someday, trying to achieve that objective turns out, for what ever reason, to be too great a burden. Obligatory costume content. When I was growing up in the 1960's and early 1970's, my mom mostly wore what was marketed as "Housecoats" or "house dresses". They were cotton coatdresses that buttoned all the way down the front, and short-sleeved or sleeveless. The nicer ones had bust darts and were slightly fitted to the body, while the cheaper ones were looser, almost like nightrobes (which they could substitute for in a pinch). They were almost always done in print fabrics. Usually, the nicer the dress, the more tasteful and subdued the print. -- Cathy Raymond "There are only two ways of telling the complete truth--anonymously and posthumously." Thomas Sowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 20:44:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890iXr0026373 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:44:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890i0tS013505 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:44:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890hwuJ002333; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:43:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890hruJ002223 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:43:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200309090043.h890hruJ002223@net.indra.com> Received: from mtiwebc17 (mtiwebc17.worldnet.att.net[204.127.135.43]) by mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id <2003090900434811300sa2boe>; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:43:48 +0000 Received: from [24.92.178.125] by mtiwebc17; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:43:48 +0000 From: sewinggoddess@att.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 00:43:48 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Aug 25 2003) X-Authenticated-Sender: c2V3aW5nZ29kZGVzc0BhdHQubmV0 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO They are vegetable dyes. They do run when washed. Crissy > On Monday 08 September 2003 02:30 pm, fastusminimus wrote: > > At 10:48 AM -0600 9/8/03, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > > >Amazingly enough, I actually found something interesting at my local > > >JoAnn's today! > > > > > >They had a (relatively) big section of cotton prints they were > > >calling either vegetable prints or vegetable dyes (can't remember > > >which). > > It makes a *big* difference, though! :-) I'd bet it was vegetable prints, > based on what I know of JoAnn's--though I'd like to be wrong on this one! > > > > They are very Indian-esque cotton prints done in vegetable > > >dyes, and they look surprising like some 18th century prints I've > > >found, both in terms of motif and color scheme. > > That's a good thing, whether we're talking vegetable prints done with > vegetable dyes or now. > > [snip] > > -- > Cathy Raymond > > "There are only two ways of telling the complete truth--anonymously and > posthumously." Thomas Sowell > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 20:56:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890uxr0026399 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:56:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890uPtS014127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:56:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h890uNxX009430; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:56:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp800.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp800.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.179]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h890uKxX009402 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:56:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-119-193-27.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@67.119.193.27 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Sep 2003 00:56:20 -0000 Message-ID: <01d001c3766d$2de43830$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th c.-ish print fabric at JoAnn's Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 17:56:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th c.-ish print fabric at JoAnn's > Funny, I KNEW you'd be talking about these before I read on. They are pretty > good, I think. Especially the ones that look blockprinted. But these all have > a 19th century look to me. Some would make a great 1830-50s dress. There are > some East Indian looking ones that are 18th century-esque, if a little dense > pattern-wise. I bought some. I planned, in my head, an 1780-90 gown for > it....middle/uppermiddle class. ooo -- good point! I didn't think about the 1830s/40s revival of 18th c.-esque fabrics. I was originally thinking of something similar (1780-90 dress), but now I might go back and get some more yardage and do 1830s! > What this line of fabrics does definitely have is character. Which is so surprising for JoAnns! - Kendra http://demode.tweedlebop.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 21:07:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8917lr0026427 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:07:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89171tS014824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:07:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8916xxX016091; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:06:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8916rxX016021 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:06:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14019 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:28:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:28:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness In-Reply-To: <200309082041.52522.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > Obligatory costume content. When I was growing up in the 1960's and > early 1970's, my mom mostly wore what was marketed as "Housecoats" or > "house dresses". They were cotton coatdresses that buttoned all the > way down the front, and short-sleeved or sleeveless. The nicer ones > had bust darts and were slightly fitted to the body, while the cheaper > ones were looser, almost like nightrobes (which they could substitute > for in a pinch). Buttoned? I remember ones with snaps! Anyone else remember those? I work at home and actually would love to have some of these, to pull on in the morning when I don't really feel like getting dressed but just want to get right to the computer. Since you can't find them in the stores anymore, I made a bunch of A-line knee-length nightgowns -- some in nice linen dress prints and a couple in "novelty" cotton quilting prints. I rarely wear them to sleep in unless I'm traveling. I pull them on in the morning when I get up to get the kids off to school, and then wear them around the house before I get dressed. Which, if I'm really deeply into work, might be around 3 p.m. some days. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 21:29:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891TLr0026492 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:29:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891SbtS015828 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:28:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891SaxX028010; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:28:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h891SXxX027934 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:28:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OiUiuqlP/jKThv0u7+NJ9q4=">; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 18:28:21 PDT Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id H9LNGNZU; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 18:28:21 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:16:30 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness Message-ID: <20030908.181715.1304.2.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Housecoats: > Buttoned? I remember ones with snaps! Anyone else remember those? Yup. My Mom had some. Arlys ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 21:39:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891dWr0026529 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:39:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891cxtS016278 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:38:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891cwxX003289; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:38:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891crxY003266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:38:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h891dK6s012244 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:39:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h891dJYc012242 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:39:19 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:39:19 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030908.181715.1304.2.Cley@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20030908.181715.1304.2.Cley@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309082139.19642.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Monday 08 September 2003 09:16 pm, Cynthia J Ley wrote: > Housecoats: > > Buttoned? I remember ones with snaps! Anyone else remember those? > > Yup. My Mom had some. So did mine. I should have mentioned that the first time! -- Cathy Raymond "There are only two ways of telling the complete truth--anonymously and posthumously." Thomas Sowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 8 21:41:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891fCr0026536 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:41:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891ehtS016359 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:40:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891egxX004174; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:40:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h891ecxY004106 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 19:40:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h891f46s012259 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:41:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h891f4up012257 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:41:04 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:41:04 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <200309090043.h890hruJ002223@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200309090043.h890hruJ002223@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309082141.04426.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Monday 08 September 2003 08:43 pm, sewinggoddess@att.net wrote: > They are vegetable dyes. They do run when washed. You may well be right about the fabrics in question...but the fact that it runs when washed doesn't automatically mean it was dyed with a vegetable dye. I have dark green towels from Lands' End which constantly bled dye until they'd been washed 20 times at least. -- Cathy Raymond "There are only two ways of telling the complete truth--anonymously and posthumously." Thomas Sowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 00:18:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h894Itr0028337 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:18:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h894D5tS023790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:13:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h894CvQg021002; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:12:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9401.mail.yahoo.com (web9401.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h894CtQg020977 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:12:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030909041255.58321.qmail@web9401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 21:12:55 PDT Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 21:12:55 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20030908.181715.1304.2.Cley@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My Mom had both---she thought buttons prettier--and prefered those---but my dad prefered the more modern style, with the snaps:) Albra Cynthia J Ley wrote: Housecoats: > Buttoned? I remember ones with snaps! Anyone else remember those? Yup. My Mom had some. Arlys ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 00:48:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h894mlr0028692 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:48:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h894mFtS025164 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:48:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h894mEQg007171; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:48:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp-int-01.mx.pitdc1.stargate.net (smtp-int-01.mx.pitdc1.stargate.net [206.210.69.149]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h894mAQh007140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:48:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 22394 invoked from network); 9 Sep 2003 04:48:08 -0000 Received: from dap-208-166-66-220.erie-tnt-1.pa.erie.net (HELO castlebooks) ([208.166.66.220]) (envelope-sender )SMTP for ; 9 Sep 2003 04:48:08 -0000 Message-ID: <008801c3768d$93acfd80$ee8c01d0@castlebooks> From: "Janet Davis" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 00:48:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89D1AVT002089 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:01:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89CxPtS011220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:59:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89CxMbL017155; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:59:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89CxIbL017095 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:59:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.119] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id ADD48EF50138; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:55:48 -0400 Message-ID: <003b01c376d2$c4aba9a0$775183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200309090043.h890hruJ002223@net.indra.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:03:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If these run, that would be one reason the contemporary public might not want them. If it isn't colorfast and drip dry, no ironing required, all the sweet design in the world won't tempt them. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth > They are vegetable dyes. They do run when washed. > > Crissy > > > On Monday 08 September 2003 02:30 pm, fastusminimus wrote: > > > At 10:48 AM -0600 9/8/03, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > > > >Amazingly enough, I actually found something interesting at my local > > > >JoAnn's today! > > > > > > > >They had a (relatively) big section of cotton prints they were > > > >calling either vegetable prints or vegetable dyes (can't remember > > > >which). > > > > It makes a *big* difference, though! :-) I'd bet it was vegetable prints, > > based on what I know of JoAnn's--though I'd like to be wrong on this one! > > > > > > They are very Indian-esque cotton prints done in vegetable > > > >dyes, and they look surprising like some 18th century prints I've > > > >found, both in terms of motif and color scheme. > > > > That's a good thing, whether we're talking vegetable prints done with > > vegetable dyes or now. > > > > [snip] > > > > -- > > Cathy Raymond > > > > "There are only two ways of telling the complete truth--anonymously and > > posthumously." Thomas Sowell > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 09:18:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DIgVT002141 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:18:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DHNtS012078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:17:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DHMbL026662; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:17:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DHHbL026603 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:17:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m212.in-tch.com [216.166.191.212]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h89Cv5c27060 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:57:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F5DD35C.5EFA46E2@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 07:19:24 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth References: <200309090043.h890hruJ002223@net.indra.com> <003b01c376d2$c4aba9a0$775183d1@rmitchellras> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Something I've found out from my forays into natural dyes, as well. Modern clothes detergents are often formulated to regard the compounds that make the colors for natural dyes as stains, and thus as something to be removed. You have to be really, really careful how, and with what, you wash your naturally-dyed article, or the color can/will go bye-bye. --sue Lloyd Mitchell wrote: > > If these run, that would be one reason the contemporary public might not > want them. If it isn't colorfast and drip dry, no ironing required, all the > sweet design in > the world won't tempt them. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 8:43 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth > > > They are vegetable dyes. They do run when washed. > > > > Crissy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 09:19:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DJGVT002144 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:19:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DIdtS012151 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:18:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DIdbL027250; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:18:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DIabL027196 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:18:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m212.in-tch.com [216.166.191.212]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h89CwOc27575 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:58:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F5DD3AB.E720D17E@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 07:20:43 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness References: <008801c3768d$93acfd80$ee8c01d0@castlebooks> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And very similar styles show up in the cheaper sections of plus-sized catalogues. I've always thought them pretty nasty-looking, though.... --sue Janet Davis wrote: > > > Actually, my mom still has those. They are even still available through > mail-order catalogs that cater to the Social Security set. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 09:32:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DWYVT002270 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:32:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DW8tS012738 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:32:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DW7bL003854; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:32:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DW2bL003818 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:32:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17090 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:53:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:53:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness In-Reply-To: <3F5DD3AB.E720D17E@in-tch.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Sue Clemenger wrote: > And very similar styles show up in the cheaper sections of plus-sized > catalogues. I've always thought them pretty nasty-looking, though.... Yes, for some reason the nastiest designs have survived. They're about a half step up from hospital gowns, I think. Suitable for my grandmother when she was in the nursing home, but not so much the casual housedress. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 09:39:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DdEVT002288 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:39:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DcKtS013005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:38:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DcJbL006746; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:38:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14002.mail.yahoo.com (web14002.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h89DcGbL006725 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:38:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030909133815.21847.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 14:38:15 BST Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:38:15 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor "false undersleeves" attachment? To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F5D214F.8080003@faucet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Characters in hsitorical dramas were very frequently presented in what was viewed as 'old-fashioned' clothing as opposed to accurate historical garments. So in 1601, the fashions prevalent 50 years ago would have been considered 'old-fashioned'. Given the tendency of people to stay with styles popular in their youth, its even possible some older women were still wearing a variant on the Tudor forsleeves. It's purely my personal intepretation of reading the play that leads me to believe the characters are dressed in earlier Tudor style garments. --- Melanie Schuessler wrote: > Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: > > Marian: "You are not well, I promise you, > Your > > forsleeves are not pind > <...> > Acted by the Right Honourable the Earle of > > Nothingham, Lord high Admirall of England, his > > servants. 1601. > > This is a very interesting (and entertaining) quote, > but the large Tudor > undersleeves had been out of style for almost 50 > years by 1601--I'm not > sure that's what the quote is referring to. > ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 09:53:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DrEVT002412 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:53:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DqgtS013680 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:52:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DqfbL014469; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:52:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DqcbL014447 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:52:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-008scfairp0454.dialsprint.net ([63.189.137.200] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wiv7-0002iu-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 06:52:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5DE85E.20203@faucet.net> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:49:02 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] suspender parts X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Was someone on h-cost asking about suspender parts? I remember the question, but not which mailing list it came from... Just in case it was this one, and indeed this info is useful for other purposes as well, try Gohn Brothers, which is an Amish supply company in Indiana. They do not have a website, but they are very nice and will send you a no-frills catalog full of things like button suspenders (for $6!), suspender parts, black hats, cotton broadfall pants, bonnets, cotton stockings, etc. 1-800-595-0031 [standard disclaimer] Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 10:01:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89E1HVT002454 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:01:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89E0htS014229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:00:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89E0gCZ019006; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:00:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89DwECZ017503 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 07:58:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17239 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:20:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:20:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] suspender parts In-Reply-To: <3F5DE85E.20203@faucet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Melanie Schuessler wrote: > Just in case it was this one, and indeed this info is useful for other > purposes as well, try Gohn Brothers, which is an Amish supply company > in Indiana. They do not have a website, but they are very nice and > will send you a no-frills catalog full of things like button > suspenders (for $6!), suspender parts, black hats, cotton broadfall > pants, bonnets, cotton stockings, etc. Buttons? For the Amish? What is this world coming to? --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 10:01:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89E1ZVT002464 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:01:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89E14tS014261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:01:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89E14CZ019239; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:01:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89E03Ca018553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:00:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h89E5lAC014872 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:05:47 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 10:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F5DDD04.7090707@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 10:00:36 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: > Yes, for some reason the nastiest designs have survived. They're about a > half step up from hospital gowns, I think. Suitable for my grandmother > when she was in the nursing home, but not so much the casual housedress. When I was looking for "housedresses" I found the dress style sold by S.C.R.U.B.S. to be just the thing. Simple, tied in the back, and extremely fun cotton prints - the sort of thing you see in the jazzier quilt shops. I'm fairly sure that was the name of the company, but it's not online. On the other tangent, the best-remembered bit of my grandmother's advice runs counter to the "housework as religion" historical mentality. "If you've been out all day and come home just before you expect your husband to be home, even before you take off your hat, put some onions in the frypan to fry. He'll be reassured that dinner is well underway." -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Would you appear nude in a movie? I don't even bathe nude. -- Alison Bechdel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 10:19:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89EJDVT002515 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:19:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89EIEtS015183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:18:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89EICCZ000179; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:18:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89EI7CZ029934 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:18:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.165.24d4a2a7 (16484) for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:17:50 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <165.24d4a2a7.2c8f3b0e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:17:50 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/9/03 9:05:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rmitchell@washjeff.edu writes: > If these run, that would be one reason the contemporary public might not > want them. If it isn't colorfast and drip dry, no ironing required, all the > sweet design in > the world won't tempt them. > How true. But these are not REALLY vegetable dyes. They just look it. And they are printed with modern technology but they look block printed or hand painted. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 10:26:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89EQbVT002541 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:26:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89EPwtS015790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:25:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89EPuCZ005777; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:25:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com (imo-r01.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.97]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89EPqCZ005663 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 08:25:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.1c2.eadf3ab (16484) for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:25:33 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1c2.eadf3ab.2c8f3cdb@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:25:31 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/8/03 8:51:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sewinggoddess@att.net writes: > They are vegetable dyes. They do run when washed. > Are you sure? Mine didn't. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 11:42:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89FgIVT003029 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:42:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89FfatS022314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:41:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89FfYJu006075; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:41:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89FfVJu005943 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:41:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 274935 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:41:25 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:45:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, fingers and rings From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001c37654$e5ab8720$ab520940@WorkingGirl> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That is fascinating! I had known that only fools wore rings on their middle finger but I didn't know the ancient reason why (except it's uncomfortable to wear a ring on that finger with other rings on the adjacent fingers). I also knew what an insult it was to bite ones thumb at someone, but didn't know the reason. So this is in Graves' The White Goddess? Is this a fiction or non-fiction book? LynnD On 9/8/03 3:02 PM, "Margaret Baird" wrote: > > > I can give a partial answer to this riddle. It has to do with the > ancient "poetic" meanings of fingers! The fingers are named fore > finger(for the foremost god of the celtic world), fool's finger (for > Saturn, the Winter soltice fool who is beheaded but rises unharmed), > leach or ring finger, and oracular or ear finger( poet's and bards used > the pinkie to plug their ears when remembering stories or when writing > new verses. The thumb is the phallus finger, rings of iron were worn on > this finger as a nod to Vulcan, Venus' husband. (Thus when Shakespear > has Romeo and Mecruccio (sorry, shakespear is packed so I'm not getting > this exactly right) in verbal battle with What's his name and one of > them says, "Do you bite your thumb at me Sir?" "Yes I bite my thumb at > you." They were being very rude and telling each other to SMD. The four > finger on the left hand was the least used finger and therefore the > safest to wear precious stones on, also it has a small, visible vein > leading to the heart and therefore links Apollo (heart, gold) to that > finger. However to wear a ring on the fool's finger was to indicate hope > of resurection or reincarnation in the ancient world, something that > Christian Europe would have frowned upon, after all they put their hopes > of that in the tithe basket every Sunday. For more on this subject read > chapter 11 of The White Goddess by Robert Graves. > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 11:54:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89Fs8VT003097 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:54:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89FrPtS023447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:53:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89FrOJu016784; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:53:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail03.powweb.com (mail03.powweb.com [63.251.216.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89FrMJu016750 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:53:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from megan2 (pcp793473pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.50.52.14]) by mail03.powweb.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD74F15CBD for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:04:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Megan M." To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost]scrubs source, was wifeliness Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:56:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3F5DDD04.7090707@thibault.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cynthia Virtue wrote: When I was looking for "housedresses" I found the dress style sold by S.C.R.U.B.S. to be just the thing. Simple, tied in the back, and extremely fun cotton prints - the sort of thing you see in the jazzier quilt shops. I'm fairly sure that was the name of the company, but it's not online. Yes, they are on line. www.smartscrubs.com is where you will find the current batch of stuff from S.C.R.U.B.S. They went out of business briefly, and were picked up by smartscrubs, who also sells several other lines of scrubs on the same website. They have great prints, and I buy almost all of my workclothes from them. They still offer a dress version, although I've never tried that one. -Megan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 12:08:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89G8lVT003160 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:08:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89G89tS025158 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:08:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89G83fN000279; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:08:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89G7wfN000185 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:07:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip184.126-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.126.184]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB1D6A97F for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:04:17 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 09:07:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness Message-ID: <3F5D986A.16648.69B6C26@localhost> Priority: normal References: <3F5DD3AB.E720D17E@in-tch.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > And very similar styles show up in the cheaper sections of > > plus-sized catalogues. I've always thought them pretty > > nasty-looking, though.... > > Yes, for some reason the nastiest designs have survived. They're about > a half step up from hospital gowns, I think. Suitable for my > grandmother when she was in the nursing home, but not so much the > casual housedress. I think that's because they know that people in nursing homes need that sort of thing (especially the tie in the back like hospital gowns: look "nice" from the front but are easy to get off grandma when she has an "accident" and needs to be cleaned up pronto.) I suspect that they don't consider that the rest of us would like something like that. Around the house I sometimes just wear one of my knit dresses that have a gathered skirt. (That is, when I'm not sitting around in my exercise clothes.) But I do have a "muu muu" like dress I sometimes wear in really hot weather. (It's a broomstick style one, not a print type like they had in the 50's through 60's when I was growing up.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 12:41:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89Gf2VT003359 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:41:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GdktS029048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:39:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GdhfN029874; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:39:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GdbfN029772 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:39:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.167.48] (helo=wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wlWj-00018x-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 12:39:37 -0400 Received: from [192.168.167.57] by EarthlinkWAM via HTTP; Tue Sep 09 12:39:37 EDT 2003 Message-ID: <39601.1063125577137.JavaMail.nobody@wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:39:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Web Access Mail version 3.0 Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, fingers and rings X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lynn Downward wrote: > That is fascinating! I had known that only fools wore rings >their middle finger but I didn't know the ancient reason why >(except it's uncomfortable to wear a ring on that finger with >other rings on the adjacent fingers). I also knew what an >insult it was to bite ones thumb at someone, but didn't know >the reason. So this is in Graves' The White Goddess? Is this a >fiction or non-fiction book? Fiction, and I'm sorry to say, not a reliable source. This novel was part of the early neo-pagan revival in the first part of the 20th century. It may contain some historical information, but it's probably better to check it against other sources. I'd expect it's a better reflection of the attitudes of the time Graves was writing (early 20th century I believe) than of the times in which he set the story. ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 12:46:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GkJVT003395 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:46:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GeHtS029120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:40:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GeGfN000508; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:40:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law10-f70.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.70]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GdqfN029931 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:39:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:39:47 -0700 Received: from 66.237.9.226 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 16:39:46 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.237.9.226] X-Originating-Email: [jessicastier@hotmail.com] From: "jessica stier" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 16:39:46 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Sep 2003 16:39:47.0158 (UTC) FILETIME=[FAFC6760:01C376F0] Subject: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks Sue, That's a REALLY good point! And I never would have thought of it unless you had said. :) jessica >Modern clothes detergents are often formulated to regard the compounds >that make the colors for natural dyes as stains, and thus as something >to be removed. >--sue > > _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 12:52:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GqZVT003436 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:52:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GoPtS000590 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:50:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GoLfN009695; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:50:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89GoFfN009595 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:50:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.167.48] (helo=wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wlh0-000094-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 12:50:14 -0400 Received: from [192.168.167.62] by EarthlinkWAM via HTTP; Tue Sep 09 12:50:14 EDT 2003 Message-ID: <7808899.1063126214741.JavaMail.nobody@wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:50:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] suspender parts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Web Access Mail version 3.0 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: >Buttons? For the Amish? > >What is this world coming to? I'll second the recommendation of Gohn Brothers, though I haven't bought anything from them in a while. Good quality, accurate descriptions, terrific prices and lots of things you can't find anywhere else. They will happily send fabric swatches if you need them (since their catalog has no pictures). They're the only place I've ever seen piece-dyed denim (at least I think that's how it's done) -- i.e. denim that doesn't have visible white threads in it. Looks quite different from the familiar stuff, and wears very well. They are also extremely nice people -- I had occasion to phone them once, and the phone was answered by one of the actual Gohn Brothers . When I was buying from them, IIRC "Gohn Brothers, Middlebury, Indiana" was sufficient address to reach them, but someone who has their catalog can probably give the rest of the address. They sell stuff for all of the varieties and sub-varieties of Amish, Mennonites, et cetera, so they are careful to specify things like whether coats have buttons or hooks, which white fabrics are suitable for women's caps, et cetera. (I believe only some of the Amish avoid buttons, and only on coats and similar outer garments IIRC). ------------------Original message------------------- >> Just in case it was this one, and indeed this info is useful for other >> purposes as well, try Gohn Brothers, which is an Amish supply company >> in Indiana. They do not have a website, but they are very nice and >> will send you a no-frills catalog full of things like button >> suspenders (for $6!), suspender parts, black hats, cotton broadfall >> pants, bonnets, cotton stockings, etc. ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 13:06:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89H6pVT003543 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:06:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89H53tS002528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:05:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89H5110022811; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:05:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89H4v10022724 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:04:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18585 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:26:46 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:26:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness In-Reply-To: <3F5D986A.16648.69B6C26@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > Around the house I sometimes just wear one of my knit dresses that > have a gathered skirt. (That is, when I'm not sitting around in my > exercise clothes.) But I do have a "muu muu" like dress I sometimes > wear in really hot weather. (It's a broomstick style one, not a print > type like they had in the 50's through 60's when I was growing up.) Kat saw me in one of my homemade nightgowns/housedresses a few weeks ago and called it a muu-muu, IIRC. However, the print (a novelty quilting print) was designed as a collage of clippings and headlines from the New York Times. I pointed out that I like to read the newspaper in bed (and so does my husband). With my linen print ones, I can slip them on as I get out of bed, slide my feet into sandals, and go out and get the paper looking vaguely respectable, if a little dated. --Roin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 20:27:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A0RqVT008018 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:27:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A0RCtS008227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:27:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A0PsNj025823; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:25:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A0PnNk025800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:25:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8A0QJ6s014378 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:26:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8A0QIk2014376 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:26:18 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, fingers and rings Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:26:17 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309092026.17987.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tuesday 09 September 2003 11:45 am, Lynn Downward wrote: > That is fascinating! I had known that only fools wore rings on their > middle finger but I didn't know the ancient reason why (except it's > uncomfortable to wear a ring on that finger with other rings on the > adjacent fingers). Back when I wore rings, I wore a ring on that finger routinely, because my ring fingers were too small to keep most rings on! I never found in uncomfortable. -- Cathy Raymond "There are only two ways of telling the complete truth--anonymously and posthumously." Thomas Sowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 21:28:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A1S5VT008286 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:28:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A1RZtS011336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:27:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A1RXrH000478; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:27:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r07.mx.aol.com (imo-r07.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A1RVrH000365 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:27:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.1c9.ed4772c (3657) for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:27:22 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1c9.ed4772c.2c8fd7f9@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:27:21 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10686 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Having just returned from Jo Ann's... Yes, they ARE vegetable dyes and the instructions are to hand wash cold and separate..."Not color fast"... Scusi! I bought a bolt. [8 yds] It was 40% off. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 21:33:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A1XXVT008307 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:33:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A1WttS011650 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:32:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A1WsrH003663; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:32:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A1WorH003634 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:32:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.133.149.108] (pm7-108.eos.net [205.133.149.108]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A1WlGI020524 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:32:48 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 21:25:48 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200309091802.h89I1sFp013127@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver running MimeDefang and SPAMAssassin Subject: [h-cost] Re: Robert Graves X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm going to chime in on this one. I don't believe Robert Graves is a good historical source. And when you're looking at anything referring to "pagan tradition," for lack of a better word, you can be sure that more often than not it's made up. The early 20th century was a boom time for made-up pagan ceremonies, "lost" knowledge, etc. There is plenty of research that traces many of these sources back to the same, fictional stuff. This isn't to say that there isn't any reliable information on pagan or pre-Christian traditions, just that you have to be awfully careful about your source. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 22:11:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2BAVT008443 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:11:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2AXtS013641 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:10:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2AV8j023139; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:10:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web40310.mail.yahoo.com (web40310.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.89]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8A2AS8j023039 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:10:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030910021022.13339.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.75.104.21] by web40310.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:10:22 PDT Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:10:22 -0700 (PDT) From: sekhmet To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] Regency underclothes/corset X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm almost done with my regency corset and am pondering the rest of my costume that has to be made in the next 6 weeks before the ball! Has anyone come up with a way to single-handedly single lace? I'm at the decision point in placing the lacing eyelets. I would prefer to do the more historically accurate single lacing, but have to assume I'll be putting the corset on myself and doing it up as best I can. I can easily reach behind my back to pull the lacing, but obviously can't get much leverage to get it snug. I've seen helpful hints for cross-lacing yourself on some websites, but very little on single lacing other than "difficult, don't bother". Also I'm trying to find out the order of undergarments under a Regency ballgown of about 1810. Was a chemise worn under the corset or over? My local library doesn't provide many costume books and my own reference books are limited to Arnold's Patterns of Fashion and Waugh's Corsets & Crinolines, but they don't appear to address this. I assume they had to wear something over the corset or it might show under the dress. Were they wearing waist petticoats as well? I bought a chemise pattern that seems to be generally accepted as historically accurate, but I can't envision it under the dresses I see women wearing in portraits and fashion illustrations. Given the decollete of ballgowns, the sheerness of sleeve fabric and general drapiness of style, I would think a chemise would have to be very low cut, sleeveless and thin. Any suggestions gratefully received. Thanks, Irene __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 22:19:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2JwVT008489 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:19:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2JQtS014126 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:19:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2JP8j027894; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:19:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2JL8j027831 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:19:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 0020830266 (12-248-149-227.client.attbi.com[12.248.149.227]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12) with SMTP id <20030910021914112006lu65e> (Authid: ladysarafina@att.net); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:19:15 +0000 Message-ID: <000f01c37741$d9e2b9c0$e395f80c@attbi.com> From: "Sarafina Sinclair" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030910021022.13339.qmail@web40310.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Regency underclothes/corset Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 21:18:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1123 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO You could try doing a single spiral. Harlie ----- Original Message ----- From: "sekhmet" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [h-cost] Regency underclothes/corset > I'm almost done with my regency corset and am > pondering the rest of my costume that has to be made > in the next 6 weeks before the ball! > > Has anyone come up with a way to single-handedly > single lace? I'm at the decision point in placing the > lacing eyelets. I would prefer to do the more > historically accurate single lacing, but have to > assume I'll be putting the corset on myself and doing > it up as best I can. I can easily reach behind my back > to pull the lacing, but obviously can't get much > leverage to get it snug. I've seen helpful hints for > cross-lacing yourself on some websites, but very > little on single lacing other than "difficult, don't > bother". > > Also I'm trying to find out the order of undergarments > under a Regency ballgown of about 1810. Was a chemise > worn under the corset or over? My local library > doesn't provide many costume books and my own > reference books are limited to Arnold's Patterns of > Fashion and Waugh's Corsets & Crinolines, but they > don't appear to address this. I assume they had to > wear something over the corset or it might show under > the dress. Were they wearing waist petticoats as well? > I bought a chemise pattern that seems to be generally > accepted as historically accurate, but I can't > envision it under the dresses I see women wearing in > portraits and fashion illustrations. Given the > decollete of ballgowns, the sheerness of sleeve fabric > and general drapiness of style, I would think a > chemise would have to be very low cut, sleeveless and > thin. > > Any suggestions gratefully received. > > Thanks, Irene > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 22:21:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2LBVT008498 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:21:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2KdtS014204 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:20:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2Kc8j028656; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:20:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2Ka8j028641 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:20:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-029scfairp0221.dialsprint.net ([63.179.120.221] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wuaw-0004qW-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:20:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5E97A3.5060909@faucet.net> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 22:16:51 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] suspender parts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: > On Tue, 9 Sep 2003, Melanie Schuessler wrote: > > >>Just in case it was this one, and indeed this info is useful for other >>purposes as well, try Gohn Brothers, which is an Amish supply company >>in Indiana. They do not have a website, but they are very nice and >>will send you a no-frills catalog full of things like button >>suspenders (for $6!), suspender parts, black hats, cotton broadfall >>pants, bonnets, cotton stockings, etc. > > > Buttons? For the Amish? > > What is this world coming to? Er...I guess the suspender buttons are probably on the inside of the waistband where they wouldn't show and be a possible venue for vanity, but I dunno. I'm not Amish--I just buy their stuff! :) Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 22:25:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2PeVT008508 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:25:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2PCtS014483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:25:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2PB8j001213; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:25:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2P88j001179 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:25:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-029scfairp0221.dialsprint.net ([63.179.120.221] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wufK-0003zE-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:25:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5E98B4.4090909@faucet.net> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 22:21:24 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] suspender parts References: <7808899.1063126214741.JavaMail.nobody@wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Chris Laning wrote: > When I was buying from them, IIRC "Gohn Brothers, Middlebury, > Indiana" was sufficient address to reach them, but someone who has > their catalog can probably give the rest of the address. My catalog says Gohn Bros. 105 South Main Box 1110 Middlebury, IN 46540-1110 In addition to being friendly, they're also fast. When I was in Wisconsin, sometimes we would order something and receive it two days later. Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 22:31:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2VCVT008533 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:31:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2U2tS014707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:30:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2U18j003657; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:30:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail03.powweb.com (mail03.powweb.com [63.251.216.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2Tw8j003605 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:29:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from megan2 (pcp793473pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.50.52.14]) by mail03.powweb.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C0215C43 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:41:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Megan M." To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] suspender parts-Gohn Brothers Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:33:18 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3F5E98B4.4090909@faucet.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ok, I'll bite. Do you have to write to get a catalog? Or is there a phone number we can call? -Megan old message: My catalog says Gohn Bros. 105 South Main Box 1110 Middlebury, IN 46540-1110 In addition to being friendly, they're also fast. When I was in Wisconsin, sometimes we would order something and receive it two days later. Melanie Schuessler _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 22:32:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2WOVT008541 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:32:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2VktS014875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:31:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2Vi8j005112; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:31:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2Vg8j005043 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:31:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m168.in-tch.com [216.166.191.168]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8A2BTc05625 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:11:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F5E8D8D.B313BA49@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 20:33:49 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth References: <1c9.ed4772c.2c8fd7f9@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm going tomorrow. Since you've dealt with 18th c. stuph, Albert, what do you recommend using it for? Is it light enough to use as a gown? would it be better for a Caraco? I've been wanting to play in the 1700s for a while now (costuming-wise; there's no group for it anywhere near me). --sue AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > > Having just returned from Jo Ann's... > > Yes, they ARE vegetable dyes and the instructions are to hand wash cold and > separate..."Not color fast"... > > Scusi! > > I bought a bolt. [8 yds] It was 40% off. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 9 22:57:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2vhVT008631 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:57:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2vBtS016118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:57:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2vBXZ018507; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:57:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A2v8XZ018483 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:57:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-029scfairp0221.dialsprint.net ([63.179.120.221] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19wvAJ-0005YL-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 09 Sep 2003 19:57:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5EA037.8010904@faucet.net> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 22:53:27 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] suspender parts-Gohn Brothers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Megan M. wrote: > Ok, I'll bite. Do you have to write to get a catalog? Or is there a phone > number we can call? I sent the phone number in the first message, but without the address, then the address in the second message without the phone number! So to avoid any further dismay, here's everything together: Gohn Bros. 105 South Main Box 1110 Middlebury, IN 46540-1110 219-825-2400 1-800-595-0031 Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 04:02:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A82oVT024523 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 04:02:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A81ltS028636 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:01:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A81hqo003958; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:01:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8A81eqo003940 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id h8A81sf13772.; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:01:55 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:01:22 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.0 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:00:59 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Regency underclothes/corset Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >>> sekhmet42@yahoo.com 09/10/03 03:10am >>> wrote: >Also I'm trying to find out the order of undergarments >under a Regency ballgown of about 1810. Was a chemise >worn under the corset or over? I've always understood the chemise (or equivalent) to have been intended as a washable lining to the rest of the clothing, always worn next to the skin. I don't know how how they managed with the flimsy dress fabrics of that era, though. Did the muslin gowns have an opaque lining? Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 09:37:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ADbsVT017731 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:37:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ADYdtS013736 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:34:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ADYWs3014667; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:34:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web12005.mail.yahoo.com (web12005.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.213]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8ADYSs3014641 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:34:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030910133428.46991.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.221.225.220] by web12005.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:34:28 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:34:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Cascio Michael To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] wifelines/comfy house dresses X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who makes up nightgowns in wild prints to wear around the house. For awhile the local Walmart had a rack of old style housedresses but the fabric was thin for nightgowns. I bought one and took a pattern so I could get the bust to fit (DDs). Having just had thyroid surgery (2days ago) I'm glad I have housedresses with lower necklines. Now I just have to sort out my historic clothing so I have something to wear until the scar fades. I considered jewelry but thought the skin might be a little sensitive for a necklace for a while and the scar is a little low for a choker. Itchy as all get out right now so it's time for more benadryl. Happy sewing all. Cassandra __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 10:01:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AE1RVT017809 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:01:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AE0otS015056 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:00:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AE0nAS027991; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:00:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com (imo-r01.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.97]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AE0kAS027920 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:00:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.3d.34a8e892 (2519) for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:00:36 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <3d.34a8e892.2c908884@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:00:36 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Regency underclothes/corset To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/9/2003 10:11:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, sekhmet42@yahoo.com writes: Were they wearing waist petticoats as well? I bought a chemise pattern that seems to be generally accepted as historically accurate, but I can't envision it under the dresses I see women wearing in portraits and fashion illustrations. Given the decollete of ballgowns, the sheerness of sleeve fabric and general drapiness of style, I would think a chemise would have to be very low cut, sleeveless and thin. Chemises of the period often have a very wide neck. Never seen a sleeveless one, but some have pretty skinny sleeves. Some sheer gowns did have their own "slips," or underdresses--I have seen two or three extant, made of peach silk (to give a nude look), and one was sleeveless. (By the 1810s-20s, these underdresses were evidently sometimes colored--have seen references to red and pink.) Not sure whether these would always have been worn with a chemise or not. Many of the sheer muslin gowns do have a bodice lining, so the underlayers of corset and chemise would not show through the top. Ann _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 10:14:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AEEqVT017831 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:14:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AEDjtS016088 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:13:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AEDiAS005710; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:13:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m07.mx.aol.com (imo-m07.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.162]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AEDfAS005603 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:13:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.10c.29220cea (16930) for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:13:26 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:13:25 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10686 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/9/2003 10:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, mooncat@in-tch.com writes: > Is it light enough to use as a gown? Oh yes. But it's not suitable for an upper crust affair. It's a day dress. A jacket of some kind would be lovely; especially if lined with an interesting lining, like a stripe, that you would catch a glimpse of. Again, a lot of the patterns are kinda dense, which gives many of them a more 19th century look IMHO. But a few of them will look great for the 18th century. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 11:16:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFG1VT017983 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:16:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFFAtS021219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:15:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFF8QH019604; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:15:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFF1QH019523 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:15:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip136.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.164.136]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7746A6C5 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:14:56 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:14:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, fingers and rings Message-ID: <3F5EDD6F.20362.B9105D9@localhost> Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: <200309092026.17987.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > On Tuesday 09 September 2003 11:45 am, Lynn Downward wrote: > > That is fascinating! I had known that only fools wore rings on > > their middle finger but I didn't know the ancient reason why (except > > it's uncomfortable to wear a ring on that finger with other rings on > > the adjacent fingers). > > Back when I wore rings, I wore a ring on that finger routinely, > because my ring fingers were too small to keep most rings on! I never > found in uncomfortable. One of the reasons why I've looked for middle finger rings is that I always were one (a jade band, because I've got size 4 fingers and the bands don't come smaller) on that finger. (It's my "engagement" ring from my husband.) I also wear a ring on the "ring" finger next to it (a pyramid amethyst in what is supposedly a 15th C setting, from the Boston Museum of Art. Nice thing about gold is that you can get it sized.) It's not the least bit uncomfortable. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 11:16:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFGYVT017989 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:16:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFFntS021278 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:15:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFFmQH020120; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:15:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFF7QH019597 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:15:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip136.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.164.136]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B87E6A4CD for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:15:06 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:14:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] wifeliness Message-ID: <3F5EDD6F.24723.B9108F6@localhost> Priority: normal References: <3F5D986A.16648.69B6C26@localhost> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Kat saw me in one of my homemade nightgowns/housedresses a few weeks > ago and called it a muu-muu, IIRC. However, the print (a novelty > quilting print) was designed as a collage of clippings and headlines > from the New York Times. I pointed out that I like to read the > newspaper in bed (and so does my husband). To me the difference between a house dress and a muu muu is that the house dress has a front opening. Muu muus to me are usually in a print of some kind. Of course, most of the ones I remember from when they were popular tended to be in loud Hawaiian prints, larger ones than the ones you see on "Hawaiian shirts" now. Usually the man standing beside the lady in the muu muu was wearing one of the "H shirts." ;) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 11:21:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFLWVT018009 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:21:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFFgtS021258 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:15:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFFgQH020057; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:15:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFF3QH019542 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:15:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip136.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.164.136]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025A46A594 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:15:02 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:14:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, fingers and rings Message-ID: <3F5EDD6F.7639.B9106E3@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <39601.1063125577137.JavaMail.nobody@wamui10.slb.atl.earthlink.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > So this is in Graves' The White Goddess? Is this a > >fiction or non-fiction book? > > Fiction, and I'm sorry to say, not a reliable source. This novel was > part of the early neo-pagan revival in the first part of the 20th > century. It may contain some historical information, but it's probably > better to check it against other sources. I'd expect it's a better > reflection of the attitudes of the time Graves was writing (early 20th > century I believe) than of the times in which he set the story. Hmmm. I was wondering about his sources. I thought it sounded something like the stuff from "Women of the Celts" which turns out to be just neo-Pagan supposition. If you can't find evidence because it's been destroyed, make it up as you go. Sort of like some of the Violetta le Duc encyclopedia entries. ;) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 11:41:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFf5VT018099 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:41:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFe1tS023623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:40:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFe0QH010501; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:40:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web12501.mail.yahoo.com (web12501.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.193]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8AFdvQH010476 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:39:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030910153957.42617.qmail@web12501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.192.137.6] by web12501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:39:57 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:39:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Lil Sorepaws To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200309101516.h8AFFtQJ020199@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] Seeking Serger (and some Fabric) advice X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello Ladies (and gents ;) I'm delurking for a bit to ask you for some advice ... I am looking at getting a serger (have never owned one though most of my friends swear by theirs ...) and would like some "professional" opinions about what to get. I'd prefer to spend under 400-500$ for it but my main needs are SIMPLE THREADING and Ease of Use .. I don't need 10000 different stitches, just mainly basic stuff .. heck my home sewing machines have a lot of stitches and I've barely used any besides straight and zigzag!! ;) Any advice on what brand & model to check out? Many Thanks!! Also, I just bought some GORGEOUS saffron colored silk shantung (yes I can hear the groans now but its for an italian courtesans gown and there is research backing the use of slubbed silk in clothing in italy ... Especially in lower middle class and merchant class clothing ;) so was looking for ideas of where to locate some paintings or pictures of Italian Courtesans ?? Right now I am seriously thinking of simply using some screenshots from "Dangerous Beauty" in my design .. perhaps that russet/red dress from when she first starts seeing the patronage money pour in (when she comes in and flops on the big platform bed?) or the amazing red ribbon gown she wears in the scene with the king of france ... Opinions? Advice? Admonitions? ;) Many many thanks in advance!! - Lil da Lunatic ;) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 11:57:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFvPVT018146 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:57:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFuetS025095 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:56:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFud8L024266; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:56:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scanmail1.cableone.net (scanmail1.cableone.net [24.116.0.121]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AFu38L023737 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 09:56:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scanmail1.cableone.net ([10.116.0.121]) by scanmail1.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:53:05 -0700 Received: from scanmail1.cableone.net [24.116.0.121] by scanmail1.cableone.net (SMTPD32-7.04) id A8E1E20014C; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:53:05 -0700 Received: from kimathlon (24-117-44-29.cpe.cableone.net [24.117.44.29]) by mail.cableone.net with SMTP (MailShield v2.04 - WIN32 Jul 17 2001 17:12:42); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 08:53:04 -0600 From: "Kim Baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:57:16 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c377b4$361f85c0$0201a8c0@kimathlon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030910153957.42617.qmail@web12501.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-SMTP-HELO: kimathlon X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: kbaird@cableone.net X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: 24-117-44-29.cpe.cableone.net [24.117.44.29] Subject: [h-cost] Seeking Serger advice X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO When sergers first came out for the home sewer, they were difficult to thread, and people are still afraid of that. But all sergers being made today are more user-friendly, so you don't need to pay for for any fancy self-threading devices. You do want differential feed, but almost all will have that as well. If you find an older, used serger, be sure to see if it has differential feed. The other item that scares people about sergers is setting the tension. You can sew with up to 5 threads at once, and all will need to have their tension adjusted for the particular stitch and fabric you are using. High-priced sergers now have automatic tension settings, which I hear work well. I don't mind adjusting the tension manually on mine, now that I have learned to do it. And you may still need to tweak the tension, even on self-adjusting models. I would recommend that you look at Juki or Bernette (Bernina) sergers, or perhaps Elna or Janome. Look at basic 3/4 thread models with differential feed. Try them out, and if they rattle and move around a lot, get something else. Whichever model you go for, get a lesson or two. It will help a lot. Also, Threads magazine put out a good basic serging book a few years ago: Easy Guide to Serging Fine Fabrics. I got mine as a remainder from http://www.hamiltonbooks.com/ or you can order it from Threads, or get it at Barnes & Noble. Kim -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Lil Sorepaws Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 10:40 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Seeking Serger (and some Fabric) advice Hello Ladies (and gents ;) I'm delurking for a bit to ask you for some advice ... I am looking at getting a serger (have never owned one though most of my friends swear by theirs ...) and would like some "professional" opinions about what to get. I'd prefer to spend under 400-500$ for it but my main needs are SIMPLE THREADING and Ease of Use .. I don't need 10000 different stitches, just mainly basic stuff .. heck my home sewing machines have a lot of stitches and I've barely used any besides straight and zigzag!! ;) Any advice on what brand & model to check out? Many Thanks!! Many many thanks in advance!! - Lil da Lunatic ;) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 15:07:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AJ7TVT019465 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:07:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AIuQtS012390 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:56:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AIuLJL005041; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:56:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AIuGJL004984 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 12:56:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pool0124.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.124] helo=earthlink.net) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xA8V-0007mk-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:56:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5F73D0.5020501@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:56:16 -0700 From: pyrfectpup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] online bra company X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I remember a post awhile back that had the url to an online bra company that made especially comfortable bras. Unfortunately, I've lost a bunch of files and do not have that bookmark anymore. The search engine for h-cost did not help locate that url. Could someone kindly post it again? Cecilia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 17:19:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ALJgVT020005 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:19:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ALIrtS024454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:18:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ALIpCx005735; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:18:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from newsmtp.golden.net (newsmtp.golden.net [199.166.210.106]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ALImD0005690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 15:18:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from as53-01-82.cas-ows.golden.net ([216.209.7.82] helo=lgsteph) by newsmtp.golden.net with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 19xCMQ-000JJ5-DQ for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:18:46 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c377e1$d7285f00$5207d1d8@lgsteph> From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:23:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] polka dots in Regency? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I haven't yet come across any reference during the Regency to a dotted fabric being used. Does anyone know if it was? I have this gorgeous length of white viole with a royal blue dot, about 1/4", that begs to have something swishy made out of it. Failing Regency I may have to find a use in another era. Sigh. And why are they called 'polka' dots? Regards Lorina Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery supplies (519) 799-5577, fax (519) 799-5418 http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 18:07:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AM7CVT020287 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:07:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AM6TtS028725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:06:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AM6PMG015234; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:06:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AM6LMG015182 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:06:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [192.168.167.42] (helo=wamui04.slb.atl.earthlink.net) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xD6T-0002BI-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:06:21 -0400 Message-ID: <27608734.1063231581019.JavaMail.root@wamui04.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:06:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 Subject: [h-cost] OT RE: h-costume Digest, fingers and rings X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If anyone's actually interested in where Robert Graves comes from, I highly recommend Ronald Hutton's several books: _The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles_ _The Rise and Fall of Merry England_ _Stations of the Sun_ _Triumph of the Moon_ (I can't guarantee the exact wording of the titles since I'm about 3000 miles from my bookshelves at the moment.) In particular, the first is a discussion of what we actually _do_ know about pagan Britain, and the last is a very illuminating and detailed discussion of the origins of modern paganism, complete with lots of names, dates and places. (I found I kept saying "Oh, so THAT's where that comes from!") Hutton is something of a professional skeptic and is fairly ruthless about pointing out areas where there is simply no evidence of what went on. On the other hand, he is also fair, sympathetic, and a very good scholar IMHO. -----Original Message----- From: kat@grendal.rain.com Sent: Sep 10, 2003 11:14 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, fingers and rings > So this is in Graves' The White Goddess? Is this a > >fiction or non-fiction book? > > Fiction, and I'm sorry to say, not a reliable source. This novel was > part of the early neo-pagan revival in the first part of the 20th > century. It may contain some historical information, but it's probably > better to check it against other sources. I'd expect it's a better > reflection of the attitudes of the time Graves was writing (early 20th > century I believe) than of the times in which he set the story. Hmmm. I was wondering about his sources. I thought it sounded something like the stuff from "Women of the Celts" which turns out to be just neo-Pagan supposition. If you can't find evidence because it's been destroyed, make it up as you go. Sort of like some of the Violetta le Duc encyclopedia entries. ;) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 18:20:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AMKRVT020325 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:20:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AMDptS029374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:13:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AMDoMG021010; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:13:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AMDiMG020924 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:13:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brujne (Cindy-Abel.creighton.edu [147.134.201.85]) RAA18254 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:13:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <000401c377e8$a94204e0$55c98693@creighton.edu> From: "Cynthia Abel" To: "Historical Costume" References: <002701c377e1$d7285f00$5207d1d8@lgsteph> Subject: Re: [h-cost] polka dots in Regency? Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:12:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO While checking out some reproductions of fashion plates from Heideloff's "Gallery of Fashion"(ran in London circa 1794-1804)I also came across some plates from Ackermann's--a Regency era publication. While I saw and read decriptions of gowns with a white spot(on white) or red spot(on white), I didn't read or see a navy blue that looked like dotted Swiss. Your best recourse would be to see actual gowns or photographs as illustations allow for a lot of artistic license, of course. I don't know about other members of this list, but I'd love to see Dover Publications(or someone out there) do a republication of at least some of the plates from "Gallery of Fashion" in full color. While nearly a complete run of this publication is available on microfilm, it is in black and white, and not color. Some plates have been reproduced in smaller sizes in various books, but the decade 1794-1804 is very under-covered for fashion history. Fans of Jane Austen would probably also appreciate such a work. Cindy Abel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Five Rivers" <> To: "Historic Costume List" Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:23 PM Subject: [h-cost] polka dots in Regency? > I haven't yet come across any reference during the Regency to a dotted > fabric being used. Does anyone know if it was? I have this gorgeous length > of white viole with a royal blue dot, about 1/4", that begs to have > something swishy made out of it. Failing Regency I may have to find a use in > another era. Sigh. > > And why are they called 'polka' dots? > > Regards > Lorina > > Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage > fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery > supplies > (519) 799-5577, fax (519) 799-5418 http://www.5rivers.org email: > info@5rivers.org > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 18:28:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AMSMVT020404 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:28:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AMRJtS000705 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:27:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AMRGMG002114; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:27:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AMRCMG002061 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:27:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Imedia5043 ([82.44.203.167]) by smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:27:12 +0100 Message-ID: <01bf01c377ea$98a8ae70$0401a8c0@Imedia5043> From: "Dawn Wood" To: "Historical Costume" References: <002701c377e1$d7285f00$5207d1d8@lgsteph> <000401c377e8$a94204e0$55c98693@creighton.edu> Subject: Re: [h-cost] polka dots in Regency? Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:26:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Sep 2003 22:27:12.0058 (UTC) FILETIME=[ADED79A0:01C377EA] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO in a V&A fabric print book of the period there is a fab egg yellow fabric with large polka dots in white that I have been dying to do in years if \I could only wear that colour dawn Ages Of Elegance makers of historical clothing, uniforms and bridalwear http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6717 > While checking out some reproductions of fashion plates from Heideloff's > "Gallery of Fashion"(ran in London circa 1794-1804)I also came across some > plates from Ackermann's--a Regency era publication. > > While I saw and read decriptions of gowns with a white spot(on white) or red > spot(on white), I didn't read or see a navy blue that looked like dotted > Swiss. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 19:01:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AN1hVT020549 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:01:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AN0YtS003084 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:00:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AN0WwH026616; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:00:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail03.powweb.com (mail03.powweb.com [63.251.216.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8AN0TwH026589 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:00:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from megan2 (pcp793473pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.50.52.14]) by mail03.powweb.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF89F15C8E for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:12:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Megan M." To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Seeking Serger advice Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:03:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <000001c377b4$361f85c0$0201a8c0@kimathlon> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Also, if you need inexpensive, don't forget to check your local Sears store. I'm not sure whose machines they are badging these days, but they do sell sewing machines and sergers. I got mine about 6 or 7 years ago, and use it mostly just to finish fabric edges. It is a 2,3,4 thread serger and does everything I have ever wanted except the 5 thread cover stitch, but I was unable to pay an extra grand for that at the time (and still not). It is not fancy but has served me very well. -Megan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 19:54:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ANsgVT020814 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:54:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ANrxtS006640 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:54:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ANrvwH029203; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:53:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (sea1-f54.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.54]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ANrtwH029128 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:53:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:53:49 -0700 Received: from 151.199.152.138 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:53:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [151.199.152.138] X-Originating-Email: [nancy_kiel@hotmail.com] From: "Nancy Kiel" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Regency underclothes/corset Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:53:49 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Sep 2003 23:53:49.0612 (UTC) FILETIME=[C7E946C0:01C377F6] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO What worked for me putting on my 18th century stays was 1) a really long lace 2)partially lacing them (from the top down), then putting them on over my head 3)tightening them from the top down, and tying the remainder of the lace around my waist and 4)allowing time to get into them. Best of luck! Nancy Kiel nancy_kiel@hotmail.com Never tease a weasel! This is very good advice. For the weasel will not like it And teasing isn't nice. >From: sekhmet >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: h-costume@net.indra.com >Subject: [h-cost] Regency underclothes/corset >Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 19:10:22 -0700 (PDT) > >I'm almost done with my regency corset and am >pondering the rest of my costume that has to be made >in the next 6 weeks before the ball! > >Has anyone come up with a way to single-handedly >single lace? I'm at the decision point in placing the >lacing eyelets. I would prefer to do the more >historically accurate single lacing, but have to >assume I'll be putting the corset on myself and doing >it up as best I can. I can easily reach behind my back >to pull the lacing, but obviously can't get much >leverage to get it snug. I've seen helpful hints for >cross-lacing yourself on some websites, but very >little on single lacing other than "difficult, don't >bother". > >Also I'm trying to find out the order of undergarments >under a Regency ballgown of about 1810. Was a chemise >worn under the corset or over? My local library >doesn't provide many costume books and my own >reference books are limited to Arnold's Patterns of >Fashion and Waugh's Corsets & Crinolines, but they >don't appear to address this. I assume they had to >wear something over the corset or it might show under >the dress. Were they wearing waist petticoats as well? >I bought a chemise pattern that seems to be generally >accepted as historically accurate, but I can't >envision it under the dresses I see women wearing in >portraits and fashion illustrations. Given the >decollete of ballgowns, the sheerness of sleeve fabric >and general drapiness of style, I would think a >chemise would have to be very low cut, sleeveless and >thin. > >Any suggestions gratefully received. > >Thanks, Irene > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software >http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. https://broadband.msn.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 21:07:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8B17tVT021464 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:07:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8B13GtS010313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:03:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8B13D8o000743; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:03:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8B13A8o000680 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:03:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m52.in-tch.com [216.166.191.52]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8B0guN08280 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:42:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F5FCA4E.CC7D97CA@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:05:18 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth References: <10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, perfect. My 18th c. skills are in no way up to High Society standards, so something a little more casual or middle class is just what I'm looking for. Thanks! --sue AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/9/2003 10:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mooncat@in-tch.com writes: > > > Is it light enough to use as a gown? > > Oh yes. But it's not suitable for an upper crust affair. It's a day dress. A > jacket of some kind would be lovely; especially if lined with an interesting > lining, like a stripe, that you would catch a glimpse of. > > Again, a lot of the patterns are kinda dense, which gives many of them a more > 19th century look IMHO. But a few of them will look great for the 18th > century. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 10 21:36:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8B1aGVT022054 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:36:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8B1ZUtS011845 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:35:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8B1ZO8o016757; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:35:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8B1ZL8o016733 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:35:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-003scfairp0185.dialsprint.net ([63.184.208.185] helo=faucet.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xGMi-0003vL-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:35:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3F5FDE8C.5020500@faucet.net> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:31:40 -0500 From: Melanie Schuessler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Seeking Serger advice References: <000001c377b4$361f85c0$0201a8c0@kimathlon> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kim Baird wrote: > > I would recommend that you look at Juki or Bernette (Bernina) sergers, I would like to second this. I LOVE LOVE LOVE my Juki. I've had it for over 10 years, and it goes through everything like buttah. They're more expensive (maybe above your stated price range), but they're SO worth it if you're going to use it on anything like a regular basis. When I had to buy everything for the costume shop at the university where I teach, I bought a Juki. When I got frustrated with the cheap sergers where I used to work, I went home and used my Juki, then brought the seven-or-eight-layer-thick serged edge back to show my boss in an effort to convince him to buy one. Just my little testimonial, Melanie Schuessler http://www.faucet.net/costume Assistant Professor of Costume Design and Construction Coastal Carolina University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 07:23:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BBNIVT032147 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:23:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BBMUtS007651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 05:22:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BBMGRo002028; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 05:22:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta03.fuse.net (mta03.fuse.net [216.68.1.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BBMCRo002013 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 05:22:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eyrie.fuse.net ([66.161.181.114]) by mta03.fuse.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.04 201-253-122-130-104-20030726) with ESMTP id <20030911112212.SENL9232.mta03.fuse.net@eyrie.fuse.net> for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:22:12 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030911072341.00ae4e68@pop.fuse.net> X-Sender: jemarshall@pop.fuse.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:28:01 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: "J.E. M-C" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] Indian Sari shops in DC? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am going to be in DC to play tourist while my husband takes a 1 week class. I am looking to purchase several inexpensive saris. Does anyone in that area know where I can go to look for some? We will be staying in Springfield, VA just off the Springfield red line. I really appreciate the help. Jennifer _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 08:06:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BC6YVT032254 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:06:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BC5ttS009579 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:05:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BC5r2N019006; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:05:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from im2.mail.tds.net (im2.mail.tds.net [216.170.230.92]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BC5o2N018987 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:05:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from death ([216.170.253.140]) by im2.mail.tds.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with SMTP id h8BC5fpu027081 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:05:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <018301c3785d$076d6f90$6501a8c0@death> From: "Harold and Dinah Tackett" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030911072341.00ae4e68@pop.fuse.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Indian Sari shops in DC? Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:05:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am not sure about Sari shops but do not forget about the Library of Congress and the Textile Museum's Library both are wonderful. (can you tell I spent some time there about a month ago ;) . Dinah ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.E. M-C" > I am going to be in DC to play tourist while my husband takes a 1 week > class. I am looking to purchase several inexpensive saris. Does anyone in > that area know where I can go to look for some? We will be staying in > Springfield, VA just off the Springfield red line. I really appreciate the > help. > Jennifer _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 08:14:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BCEHVT032271 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:14:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BCDptS009902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:13:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BCDo2N022023; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:13:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BCDj2O021948 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:13:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8BCJZAC028146 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:19:35 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F60671D.5000706@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:14:21 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) Subject: [h-cost] Anyone have details on _Plucked, Shaved & Braided: Medieval and Renaissance Beauty_ X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Folks, I got this note from Amazon yesterday, and I'm hoping someone might know the more-thorough scoop on this book, which was supposed to be out in June. ------ We have contacted the publisher by phone concerning the status of our order for "Plucked, Shaved & Braided: Medieval and Renaissance Beauty and Grooming Practices 1000-1600." The representative that we spoke with indicated that this title has not been released and there is no projected release date at this time. Release dates tend to fluctuate, however, so there is a chance that this will change. If we receive additional information about this, we will let you know. ------ (Then they went on with other information not relevant here.) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent This is why real research isn't done from secondary sources. You never know where those sources have been. -- JayUtah on the Bad Astronomy board _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 09:16:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDG8VT000924 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:16:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDFTtS013400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:15:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDFRJx017429; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:15:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9404.mail.yahoo.com (web9404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8BDFOJx017396 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:15:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030911131524.45986.qmail@web9404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:15:24 PDT Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 06:15:24 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] Anyone have details on _Plucked, Shaved & Braided: Medieval and Renaissance Beauty_ To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F60671D.5000706@thibault.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I got the same message as well---but no further info to add:( Albra Cynthia Virtue wrote: Hi Folks, I got this note from Amazon yesterday, and I'm hoping someone might know the more-thorough scoop on this book, which was supposed to be out in June. ------ We have contacted the publisher by phone concerning the status of our order for "Plucked, Shaved & Braided: Medieval and Renaissance Beauty and Grooming Practices 1000-1600." The representative that we spoke with indicated that this title has not been released and there is no projected release date at this time. Release dates tend to fluctuate, however, so there is a chance that this will change. If we receive additional information about this, we will let you know. ------ (Then they went on with other information not relevant here.) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent This is why real research isn't done from secondary sources. You never know where those sources have been. -- JayUtah on the Bad Astronomy board _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 09:24:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDOqVT000947 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:24:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDOBtS013832 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:24:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDO9Jx021148; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:24:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDO4Jx021110 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:24:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115])h8BDNvrx023140 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:24:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030911082829.00a0a4c0@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:32:00 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] Indian Sari shops in DC? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030911072341.00ae4e68@pop.fuse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I went to Yahoo's yellow pages & looked up saris in the Springfield VA area. Here's what it showed: Sari-Sari House (301) 248-7463 739 Cady Dr Fort Washington, MD 10.5 miles from Springfield India Sari Palace Inc (301) 434-1350 1337 University Blvd E Takoma Park, MD 17.5 miles from Springfield Aanchal Saris (301) 434-3029 8044 New Hampshire Ave Hyattsville, MD 17.7 miles from Springfield HTH! Sheryl Nance-Durst At 07:28 AM 9/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >I am going to be in DC to play tourist while my husband takes a 1 week >class. I am looking to purchase several inexpensive saris. Does anyone >in that area know where I can go to look for some? We will be staying in >Springfield, VA just off the Springfield red line. I really appreciate >the help. > >Jennifer > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 09:31:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDVPVT000967 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:31:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDUXtS014159 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:30:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDUVJx024081; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:30:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDUSJx024049 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:30:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA32405 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:52:23 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:52:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Subject: Re: [h-cost] Indian Sari shops in DC? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030911072341.00ae4e68@pop.fuse.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Will you have a car? There are some sari shops (or used to be) in the strip centers on Backlick Road in the middle of the Springfield shopping district, just south of Franconia Road. Backlick splits into two halves (I think both one-way in opposite directions, though one might be a spur) in the block or two south of Franconia, and it's in that area around the split that you'll find the strip centers. I recall a shop in a strip center on the east side of the street -- I could get right to it but can't give you better directions, sorry :-( Maybe a local on the list will know? Also consider going up to the older urban section of Arlington, near the Clarendon stop. For a block or three there are a bunch of ethnic restaurants and shops, mostly Vietnamese. There used to be a bunch of tiny fabric stores, at least one of which was still there when I visited a couple of years ago. These are not sari stores, but some of the goods are of similar interest. Also in urban Arlington, on Wilson Boulevard somewhere between Rosslyn and Clarendon, is a shop whose sign says "Indian Spices and Appliances" or something like that. I used to go there for spices. You might see if they're listed in the phone book; I bet they could point you to a sari shop. You might also inquire on the CostumeDC group (it's a yahoo group). --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 09:52:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDqlVT001056 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:52:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDqCtS015324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:52:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDq9Jx004717; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:52:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BDpYJx004351 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:51:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA32525 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:13:31 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:13:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Subject: Re: [h-cost] Indian Sari shops in DC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I wrote: > Also in urban Arlington, on Wilson Boulevard somewhere between Rosslyn > and Clarendon, is a shop whose sign says "Indian Spices and > Appliances" or something like that. I used to go there for spices. You > might see if they're listed in the phone book; I bet they could point > you to a sari shop. Whoops, not Wilson. Lee Hwy. I think this is it: India A1 Grocery 4815 North Lee Hwy Arlington, VA 22207 703-841-9626 That's a possible place to inquire for information on local Indian shops, not a place that sells saris. And this, despite its improbable name, may be the shop I remember as having saris. Worth a call: New York Fabric 6562 Backlick Road Springfield, VA 22150 703-912-9066 --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 11:44:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFikVT001891 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:44:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFXdtS023635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:33:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFXXWp015673; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:33:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f101.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.11.101]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFXTWp015532 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:33:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:33:22 -0700 Received: from 209.240.198.62 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:33:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.198.62] X-Originating-Email: [hannah_osa@hotmail.com] From: "Hannah Blake" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Indian Sari shops in DC? Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:33:20 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Sep 2003 15:33:22.0065 (UTC) FILETIME=[0882F810:01C3787A] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Sheryl Nance-Durst >Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:32:00 -0500 > India Sari Palace Inc >(301) 434-1350 1337 University Blvd E >Takoma Park, MD >17.5 miles from Springfield > > Aanchal Saris >(301) 434-3029 8044 New Hampshire Ave >Hyattsville, MD >17.7 miles from Springfield These shops are very close to each other. In fact, there are a number of smaller, non-chain fabric stores within a block or so of the University Blvd-New Hampshire Ave intersection. (There are shopping centers on all four sides of this intersection, in fact!) I haven't shopped there in a number of years, but found some nice fabrics and trims there in the past. Peace, Willie <--lives in the Maryland 'burbs of DC :) _________________________________________________________________ Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. https://broadband.msn.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 11:48:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFmwVT001943 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:48:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFf1tS024199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:41:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFf0Wp021879; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:41:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFevWp021829 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:40:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ripco.com (cybil2.ripco.com [209.100.224.203]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id h8BFerJ25367 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:40:54 -0500 (CDT) From: zski@ripco.com To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:40:56 -0500 X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8c, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <3f609786.2942.0@ripco.com> X-User-Info: 68.20.35.237 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] RE: Sears Machines X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFqFVT001983 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:52:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFp7tS025001 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:51:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BFp5Wp000101; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:51:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web42004.mail.yahoo.com (web42004.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8BFp2Wp029879 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:51:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030911155057.33986.qmail@web42004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [142.166.234.114] by web42004.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:50:57 EDT Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:50:57 -0400 (EDT) From: liz haines Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Sears Machines To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3f609786.2942.0@ripco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is true, I have not purchased a Kenmore because of this very reason. The machines tend to be inconsistant because the Kenmore brand is not always made by the same company. They tender the contract to other companies who manufacture the machines for them. When the current contract is up then you are out of luck for parts. My hometown sewing machine repair guy HATES getting kenmores in for service. You are much better off getting a sewing machine or serger from a reputable dealer who has a few brand names to choose from. I am fond of Husquvarna, white, and juki. You pay a bit more but the long term investment is worth it when servicing and long term value are considered. Good luck with your purchase. Liz Haines store.I'm not sure whose machines they are sell sewing machines and NO NO NO NO NO NO! Sears does not guarantee parts availability for ANY of their machines for longer than three years! If you need repairs after that, you will first get notices that the part is on order for six months, THEN they will finally admit that they can't help you. I punched out a throat plate on a Kenmore sewing machine and ended up being unable to replace it at any cost save having the part custom-machined! Wendy Z Chicago, IL _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 14:28:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BISQVT011464 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:28:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BIRFtS008170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:27:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BIQsYB008817; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:26:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web12502.mail.yahoo.com (web12502.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8BIQpYB008765 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:26:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030911182651.19204.qmail@web12502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.192.132.100] by web12502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:26:51 PDT Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:26:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Lil Sorepaws To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200309111801.h8BI0hYD018004@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] Sergers X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Husvarna/White I know makes pretty awesome sewing machines (I own one tho sadly to say mom and I both use our Singers since we currently don't have any place to set up the Romeo ... ) but one of my friends basically hissed when I suggested me getting a white serger. She has a Brother she swears by (I've seen Elna's, Whites and Brothers selling for within 50$ of each other and the Juki is about 50$ more still at http://www.sewvacdirect.com/ ... but what I may do is talk to the guy at Philips sew and Vac (not too far from my house this guy repairs and resells machines and has ALWAYS done a marvelous job even when I came in with a machine missing parts (I think it WAS a kenmore from the 1950's that I have since handed off to a friend who LOVES it!?) and doesn't charge an arm and a leg ... (cleaning a machine in birmingham cost my mom almost 100$, I think he charged me 30 including parts) and see what he suggests in my price range and capabilities since he has always really impressed me as both honest and very well versed. If I can't afford his prices but find the same machine at http://www.sewvacdirect.com/ (they offer warranties on the machines unlike ebay)I'll get it there but his have been pretty reasonable so far ;) ANyways ... MUCH thanks to all - one last question: from what i hear some use regular sewing needles while others require special serger needles - is there much difference in the end result between the two? THANK YOU!! - Lil (grand schemes, lots of work ahead of me ;) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 15:31:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BJVwVT011694 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:31:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BJUYtS013249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:30:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BJTd2X027276; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:29:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m08.mx.aol.com (imo-m08.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.163]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BJTa2X027177 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:29:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.ea.3df34b7c (18403) for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:29:23 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:29:22 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Indian Sari shops in DC? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There are a number of sari shops in Langley Park, Maryland, but this is not near the Metro. I think there are some in northern Virginia, but someone else will have to supply details, as I don't know them. Ann _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 15:36:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BJaBVT011729 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:36:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BJZStS013635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:35:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BJZR2X002046; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:35:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r06.mx.aol.com (imo-r06.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.102]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BJZQ2X001952 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:35:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.198.1f7fe833 (18403) for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:35:06 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <198.1f7fe833.2c922869@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:35:05 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Indian Sari shops in DC? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/11/2003 9:24:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, sherylnd@kc.rr.com writes: India Sari Palace Inc (301) 434-1350 1337 University Blvd E Takoma Park, MD 17.5 miles from Springfield Aanchal Saris (301) 434-3029 8044 New Hampshire Ave Hyattsville, MD 17.7 miles from Springfield These two are in Langley Park, and I think there is one more in the area. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 16:09:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BK9kVT011890 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:09:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BK94tS017008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:09:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BK92Le029576; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:09:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BK8xLe029523 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:09:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pool0123.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.164.123] helo=earthlink.net) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xXkQ-0005Ye-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:08:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3F60D65C.9060308@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:09:00 -0700 From: pyrfectpup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] need bra site - please help X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sorry for a second posting, but I would really like to find this site again. Someone had posted a site that sold bras. The site did not carry the "name" brand bras. It was not "Decent Exposures" either. The bras were somewhat expensive, but very quality. I've searched the archives and googled until I'm all "searched-out." If you have any suggestions, please forward them. Cecilia pyrfectpup @ earthlink.net knitting a new paradigm in Southern California _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 16:35:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BKZXVT012107 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:35:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BKYutS019443 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:34:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BKYtLe020709; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law10-f56.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BKYqLe020598 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:34:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:34:47 -0700 Received: from 66.237.9.226 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:34:46 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.237.9.226] X-Originating-Email: [jessicastier@hotmail.com] From: "jessica stier" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:34:46 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Sep 2003 20:34:47.0323 (UTC) FILETIME=[242A56B0:01C378A4] Subject: [h-cost] Re: Serger X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I was in a similar situation a few months ago. I did a bunch of research but in the end, ended up at my local sewing machine shop. I told them what my budget was and (also that I was a student) she was able to show me the sergers that fit into my price range and the differences between each. I ended up with a machine that she usually sold for a bit over my budget at a discounted price. It worked out great! My ding-bat brain can't think of the name of brand right now - it was one of those European sounding names that someone mentioned earlier. I'll have to look when I get home from work... Anyway, my suggestion is to go to the local sewing machine shop. Not Sears or a fabric store as they are usually very set on the price. Talk to the person who works there and be honest about your budget. They want to make a sale and they also want to make you a lifelong customer so they're usually more flexible on this type of thing. I'm very happy with my purchase and I feel that I got a little bit extra bang for my buck. Good luck & Happy Serging!!! :) jessica _________________________________________________________________ Try MSN Messenger 6.0 with integrated webcam functionality! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_webcam _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 17:41:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BLf9VT013199 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:41:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BLdQtS024573 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:39:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BLdJL2011802; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:39:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from traknet-fs3.traknet.com ([64.9.82.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8BLdGL2011768 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:39:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from WorkingGirl ([64.9.82.185]) by traknet-fs3.traknet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:36:40 -0400 From: "Margaret Baird " To: Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:39:12 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c378ad$250166b0$b9520940@WorkingGirl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200309111352.h8BDqWK1004950@net.indra.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Sep 2003 21:36:41.0411 (UTC) FILETIME=[C9EF3130:01C378AC] Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, Robert Graves X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Although Robert Graves is best known for his historical novels (Caligula and the like) The White Goddess is a non fiction exploration of ancient poetic language and myth. Originally published in 1948 he was ,of course, limited to the understandings of his time and whatever work had been done before him, as are all of us who attempt to reach back into the ancient past through what was left behind however scant that may be. However the mythological sources of poetic images was his field of studies and when I read it I don't recall that he referred to texts that were no longer available. He does, as any scholar does, interpret the evidence and as I neither read ancient Greek, nor Latin, nor Welsh I have to bow to his interpretations of these works. Margaret Baird _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 11 21:25:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C1PLVT014598 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:25:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C1O8tS008612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:24:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C1O6mo021579; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:24:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C1O3mo021481 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:24:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [207.68.52.39] by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.33 201-253-122-126-133-20030313) with ESMTP id <20030912012358.VEHJ25700.out004.verizon.net@[207.68.52.39]> for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:23:58 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:20:51 -0400 From: Ron Carnegie To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, Robert Graves In-Reply-To: <000001c378ad$250166b0$b9520940@WorkingGirl> References: <200309111352.h8BDqWK1004950@net.indra.com> <000001c378ad$250166b0$b9520940@WorkingGirl> Message-Id: <20030911211622.787B.R.CARNEGIE@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.11 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [207.68.52.39] at Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:23:57 -0500 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO beads> Although Robert Graves is best known for his historical novels (Caligula beads> and the like) The White Goddess is a non fiction exploration of ancient beads> poetic language and myth. Originally published in 1948 he was ,of beads> course, limited to the understandings of his time and whatever work had beads> been done before him, as are all of us who attempt to reach back into beads> the ancient past through what was left behind however scant that may be. beads> However the mythological sources of poetic images was his field of beads> studies and when I read it I don't recall that he referred to texts that beads> were no longer available. He does, as any scholar does, interpret the beads> evidence and as I neither read ancient Greek, nor Latin, nor Welsh I beads> have to bow to his interpretations of these works. Margaret Baird I think you will find that Robert Graves wrote I CLAUDIUS not CALIGUILA. That second book was written by Gore Vidal (unless there are two books by that name). -- Ron Carnegie ************************************************* "The poetry of history lies in the quasi-miraculous fact that once on this earth, on this familiar spot of ground walked other men and women as actual as we are today, thinking their own thoughts, swayed by their own passions but now all gone, vanishing after another, gone as utterly as we ourselves shall be gone like ghosts at cockcrow." G.M. Trevelyan ************************************************* _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 00:07:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C479VT015971 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:07:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C46QtS016982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:06:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C46M82005161; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:06:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jabberwock.wonderland.com (jabberwock.wonderland.com [205.179.178.102]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C46H82005118 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:06:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from wonderland.com (adsl-63-202-187-77.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.187.77]) by jabberwock.wonderland.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B4E2F8A1 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:06:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] need bra site - please help Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Heather Meadows To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <3F60D65C.9060308@earthlink.net> Message-Id: <74AB0F78-E4D6-11D7-A9F6-00039369A97A@wonderland.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I use herroom.com and bravissimo.com, and they are both wonderful. On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 01:09 PM, pyrfectpup wrote: > Sorry for a second posting, but I would really like to find this site > again. Someone had posted a site that sold bras. The site did not > carry the "name" brand bras. It was not "Decent Exposures" either. The > bras were somewhat expensive, but very quality. I've searched the > archives and googled until I'm all "searched-out." If you have any > suggestions, please forward them. > > Cecilia > pyrfectpup @ earthlink.net > knitting a new paradigm in Southern California > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 00:39:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C4dcVT016220 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 00:39:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C4d9tS018623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:39:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C4d382018354; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:39:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8C4d082018321 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:39:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pool0637.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.166.127] helo=earthlink.net) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xfhx-0005qr-00; Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:38:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3F614DE3.7040800@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:38:59 -0700 From: pyrfectpup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robin Netherton , Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] need bra site - please help References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: >I've collected quite a number of bra recommendations over the last few >years, from h-cost and other lists. Here are the bits I've saved from >other people's posts, though I can't vouch for these companies myself: > >------quoted stuff starts here----- > >http://www.title9sports.com/ has sports bras to at least a size E cup. >The "Frog Bra" is the one recommended, as it is supposed to hold even >whilst jumping. > Thank you - it was the title9 site!! Cecilia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 07:33:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CBXUVT024974 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:33:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CBWqtS005202 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:32:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CBWocu016913; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:32:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CBWkcu016870 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:32:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.108] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id AE0148C400B8; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:29:05 -0400 Message-ID: <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:36:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I had a look at the veggie-dyes at my local store and they seem to be no more than yardage of the 1970s popular "Indian throws". There were three to choose from, and all were quite dark. What are some of the other patterns of fabric that seem to be catching the imagination of some of the rest of you? Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth > In a message dated 9/9/2003 10:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mooncat@in-tch.com writes: > > > > Is it light enough to use as a gown? > > Oh yes. But it's not suitable for an upper crust affair. It's a day dress. A > jacket of some kind would be lovely; especially if lined with an interesting > lining, like a stripe, that you would catch a glimpse of. > > Again, a lot of the patterns are kinda dense, which gives many of them a more > 19th century look IMHO. But a few of them will look great for the 18th > century. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 08:55:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CCtKVT025477 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:55:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CCsPtS007952 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 06:54:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CCsNpc016543; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 06:54:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CCsKpc016530 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 06:54:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06591 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:16:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:16:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [h-cost] Exhibit this spring, NYC X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A friend of mine alerts me to a historic costume exhibit in NYC next year: Splendors of the Renaissance: Princely Attire in Italy, Art Gallery, the Graduate Center, CCNY 10 March-24 April 2004 There also will be two historic costume sessions at the annual conference of the the Renaissance Society of America in NYC 1-3 April. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 09:14:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CDEpVT025546 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:14:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CDEDtS009480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:14:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CDECt2024840; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:14:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14003.mail.yahoo.com (web14003.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.94]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8CDE9t2024821 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:14:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030912131409.62147.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14003.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:14:09 BST Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:14:09 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20030911211622.787B.R.CARNEGIE@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Robert Graves - odd phenomena X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Anybody know why the word 'beads' was inserted in this text in odd spots? --- Ron Carnegie wrote: > beads> Although Robert Graves is best known for his > historical novels (Caligula > beads> and the like) The White Goddess is a non > fiction exploration of ancient > beads> poetic language and myth. Originally > published in 1948 he was ,of > beads> course, limited to the understandings of his > time and whatever work had > beads> been done before him, as are all of us who > attempt to reach back into > beads> the ancient past through what was left behind > however scant that may be. > beads> However the mythological sources of poetic > images was his field of > beads> studies and when I read it I don't recall > that he referred to texts that > beads> were no longer available. He does, as any > scholar does, interpret the > beads> evidence and as I neither read ancient Greek, > nor Latin, nor Welsh I > beads> have to bow to his interpretations of these > works. Margaret Baird > ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 09:25:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CDPuVT025698 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:25:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CDPKtS010004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:25:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CDPJt2029779; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:25:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CDPGt3029730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 07:25:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8CDVBAC003024 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:31:11 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F61C95F.2050606@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:25:51 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robert Graves - odd phenomena References: <20030912131409.62147.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030912131409.62147.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: > Anybody know why the word 'beads' was inserted in this > text in odd spots? > --- Ron Carnegie wrote: > > beads> Although Robert Graves is best known for his Something odd about Ron's email program, I'd guess. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent This is why real research isn't done from secondary sources. You never know where those sources have been. -- JayUtah on the Bad Astronomy board _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 11:01:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CF1NVT026557 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:01:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CF0etS016764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:00:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CF0cYv025486; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:00:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CF0aYv025367 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:00:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.1d3.10d3e649 (4116) for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:00:29 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1d3.10d3e649.2c93398d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:00:29 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: JoAnn's Vegital dyed cloth To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 9/12/03 7:33:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rmitchell@washjeff.edu writes: > What are some of the other patterns of > fabric that seem to be catching the imagination of some of the rest of you? > There was a mainly green pattern of sinewy vines and leaves with a big stylized flower at even intervals.... only about 4 repeats from selvage to selvage. Also a red with a beige flower that appears to be block printed [the dye is not even in rectangles]. Also I liked a pale gold with light beige scrolling vines and off white leaves....but I didn't get it because there was only 4 yards. They do appear to be 70's Indian bedspreads [some more than others] but let us remember what those were inspired by in the 70s.....traditional 18TH CENTURY INDIAN TEXTILES. It didn't start in the 70s y'know. There were about 7 to 8 patterns to choose from here. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 12:54:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CGsfVT027826 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:54:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CGrltS027566 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:53:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CGrinT022807; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:53:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from colo2.internet-host.net (STARTER.INTERNET-HOST.NET [66.93.41.231] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CGrdnT022713 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:53:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Sphinx.grumpybadger.com [66.171.69.249] by colo2.internet-host.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.00) id A8E23330106; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:48:34 -0700 Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20030912094723.01b7b410@mail.grumpybadger.com> X-Sender: ysoria@grumpybadger.com@mail.grumpybadger.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:52:26 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Ysoria de Brai In-Reply-To: <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> References: <10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com> <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Royal Purple X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This just popped up on the BBC's news site. I know little about the chemistry of dying, but I thought that some might find it interesting. "A British amateur chemist has worked out how the ancient Romans dyed the togas of emperors this deep colour thanks to a bacterium found in cockles from the supermarket Tesco. .." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3103354.stm _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 14:11:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CIBwVT028492 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:11:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CIB2tS004035 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:11:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CIAx6W023133; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:10:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CIAu6W023048 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:10:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bently (c-67-168-14-153.client.comcast.net[67.168.14.153](untrusted sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20030912181050015003u0ofe>; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:10:50 +0000 Message-ID: <008101c37959$cabadd00$0200a8c0@comcast.net> From: "David" To: "Historical Costume" References: <10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com> <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> <6.0.0.22.2.20030912094723.01b7b410@mail.grumpybadger.com> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:15:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: [h-cost] Home from England trip X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have returned (and mostly recovered) from my grand England trip. In the interest of conserving bandwidth, I'll give a very brief overview now, and anyone interested in an in-depth blow-by-blow can email me, and I'll send it out to them when I get finished (or at least started) on writing it. With the exception of going light on paintings, I saw, at least briefly, nearly all the recommended sights, including most of 4 days spent at the Victoria and Albert. The only time I made it out of London was the one day I went to Bath, and saw the Costume Museum, amongst other things. I saw costumes and textile related stuff all over the place -- at Kensington Palace, in addition to the usual exhibits of presentation gowns, there were special exhibits of several of Di's gowns, and of the Queen's hats and handbags. There was a much bigger costuming chunk of stuff at the Globe than I had anticipated. At Buckingham Palace, I saw the Queen's Coronation gown -- exquisite! I saw Admiral Nelson's uniform from the Battle of Trafalgar (with the fatal bullet hole clearly visible!). I hit (and thoroughly enjoyed) every fabric store I could get to, even though I didn't purchase anything -- such willpower! I think in many ways, the highlight of the trip was the Queen Elizabeth I exhibit at Greenwich, so many, many items I've seen all my life in pictures, with the real, actual items right there in front of me, including the Pelican Portrait! It was what I came to call "a Rosetta Stone" moment. There were so many on this trip, including seeing *the* Rosetta Stone. I want to thank everyone who sent me advice, reassurance, and offered help for my trip (and I can now attest that Stevie Gamble is a terrifically wonderful lady!). My trip wouldn't have been as smooth or as great without everything y'all did for me. I am ever so grateful. And one last great thing -- since I've been home we've run CATscans and I've just been told that there is no sign of cancer on them! (Pam does the happy dance) I get to stay completely away from doctors until my next set of scans, in 3 months! Pam Dotson _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 14:28:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CISLVT028759 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:28:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CIRjtS005497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:27:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CIRd6W005503; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:27:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h89NWJjR024033 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:32:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 0020830266 (12-248-149-227.client.attbi.com[12.248.149.227]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id <2003090923320811300srfcve> (Authid: ladysarafina@att.net); Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:32:09 +0000 Message-ID: <000701c3772a$81803260$e395f80c@attbi.com> From: "Sarafina Sinclair" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F55B3D1.17874.31B88930@localhost> <3F58F048.19928.2A9EDDA@localhost> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:31:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C37700.97B78D00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1123 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:27:38 -0600 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Re: 16th C hats X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C37700.97B78D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Does anyone have any portraits of an ENGLISH woman wearing a hat like this one? (see attachment) The woman in the portrait is Anne of Austria, Queen of Spain c1750. I can find portraits of little caps perched on top, (like in the 1569 unknown girl - see attached) but not the flat cap construction that is a brim with a large circle crown that is pleated in. I'm probably just looking in the wrong place... Thanks! Harlie ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C37700.97B78D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C37700.97B78D00-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 15:28:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJSsVT029319 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:28:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJN5tS010191 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:23:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJN1As015933; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:23:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f115.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.11.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJMwAs015854 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:22:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:22:53 -0700 Received: from 12.231.218.121 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:22:52 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.231.218.121] X-Originating-Email: [distantdesigns@hotmail.com] From: "Jennifer Sena" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sergers Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:22:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Sep 2003 19:22:53.0135 (UTC) FILETIME=[431F3DF0:01C37963] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >> >ANyways ... MUCH thanks to all - one last question: from what i hear some >use regular sewing needles while others require special serger needles - >is there much difference in the end result between the two? > When I bought my little White, the repairwoman told me that the parts of a serger run with such small spaces that the serger needles are important. I used the wrong needles to the tune of $250 in repairs, so I always use serger needles on that machine now. Jennifer Sena Distant Designs http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!! _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 15:47:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJl3VT029511 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:47:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJkFtS012422 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:46:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJkCAs003813; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:46:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJk7As003699 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:46:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HL4009TR8WB6P@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:11:11 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Home from England trip In-reply-to: <008101c37959$cabadd00$0200a8c0@comcast.net> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030912121009.02e35ce0@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com> <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> <6.0.0.22.2.20030912094723.01b7b410@mail.grumpybadger.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 11:15 AM 9/12/2003 -0700, you wrote: >And one last great thing -- since I've been home we've run CATscans and I've >just been told that there is no sign of cancer on them! (Pam does the happy >dance) I get to stay completely away from doctors until my next set of >scans, in 3 months! > >Pam Dotson Hi Pam I am glad you had a great time in England. Someday I promise myself I will get there. And yippee!! on the lack of cancer! That is wonderful. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 15:47:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJlIVT029517 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:47:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJkitS012550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:46:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJkhAs004381; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:46:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJk7Aw003699 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:46:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HL4009TR8WB6P@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:27:59 -0700 From: Kimiko Small X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030912122502.02e5cb10@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: [h-cost] ebay costume books X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi again, This item looked interesting as a costume book. Not my time period, but maybe for someone else. m. leloir historie du costume vintage book http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3551346820&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 It appears to be a French book of illustrated plates and patterns from Louis XVI, 1775-1795. I am amazed at the high hair fashions that is evident in one of the pics. And another book for English Costumes, being sold by a UK seller. VINTAGE BOOK---ENGLISH COSTUME---1907 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3551357083&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 15:47:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJlMVT029520 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:47:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJkbtS012522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJkaAs004266; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:46:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CJk7Au003699 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:46:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HL4009TR8WB6P@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:14:51 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Royal Purple In-reply-to: <6.0.0.22.2.20030912094723.01b7b410@mail.grumpybadger.com> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030912121318.02e44408@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> <10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com> <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That is just too cool!!! If only they showed a sample of what that color actually became. Maybe someone here can try it sometime. Kimiko At 09:52 AM 9/12/2003 -0700, you wrote: >This just popped up on the BBC's news site. I know little about the >chemistry of dying, but I thought that some might find it interesting. > >"A British amateur chemist has worked out how the ancient Romans dyed the >togas of emperors this deep colour thanks to a bacterium found in cockles >from the supermarket Tesco. .." > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3103354.stm Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 16:12:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKCHVT029809 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:12:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKBetS014921 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:11:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKBd2i024475; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:11:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.pacifier.net (smtp1.pacifier.net [64.255.237.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKBX2i024376 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:11:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip166.100-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.100.166]) by smtp1.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F7C70E54 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:11:29 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:11:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 16th C hats Message-ID: <3F61C5FB.7000.954DF25@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000701c3772a$81803260$e395f80c@attbi.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Does anyone have any portraits of an ENGLISH woman wearing a hat like > this one? (see attachment) The woman in the portrait is Anne of > Austria, Queen of Spain c1750. Unfortunately, you'll have to give us a URL as the list doesn't accept attachments. One of the problems is that there are not as many people doing English portraits during this period. Most of the portrait painters were on the Continent (and only visited England for short periods of time.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 16:23:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKNNVT030002 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:23:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKMJtS015882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:22:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKMI2i003694; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:22:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKMG2i003664 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:22:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net ([10.116.0.122]) by scanmail2.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:19:07 -0700 Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122] by scanmail2.cableone.net (SMTPD32-7.04) id AA3B13FD0230; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:19:07 -0700 Received: from kimathlon (24-117-44-29.cpe.cableone.net [24.117.44.29]) by mail.cableone.net with SMTP (MailShield v2.04 - WIN32 Jul 17 2001 17:12:42); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:19:07 -0600 From: "Kim Baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Sergers Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:22:38 -0500 Message-ID: <000601c3796b$9cc14800$0201a8c0@kimathlon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-SMTP-HELO: kimathlon X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: kbaird@cableone.net X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: 24-117-44-29.cpe.cableone.net [24.117.44.29] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > When I bought my little White, the repairwoman told me that the parts of a serger run with such small spaces that the serger needles are important. I used the wrong needles to the tune of $250 in repairs, so I always use serger needles on that machine now. THAT may very well be true for White, a brand I wouldn't buy. Unless your manual specifies otherwise, your serger can use any of the standard Schmetz needles. Kim _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 16:37:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKb5VT030262 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:37:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKaNtS017281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:36:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKaM2i013648; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:36:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKaH2j013552 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:36:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8CKgEAC005523 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:42:14 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F622E65.80504@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:36:53 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Royal Purple References: <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> <10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com> <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> <5.2.1.1.0.20030912121318.02e44408@64.87.54.245> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030912121318.02e44408@64.87.54.245> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kimiko Small wrote: > That is just too cool!!! If only they showed a sample of what that color > actually became. Maybe someone here can try it sometime. Yeah, I'd like to know also. But if it wasn't the deep grapey purple that everyone expected, you'd think they'd've said. Other discussions on this list and others would lead me to expect a reddish-purple for Imperial/Royal Purple. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 16:41:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKf9VT030305 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:41:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKeVtS017647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:40:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKeU2i016826; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:40:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKeM2j016606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:40:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8CKkIAC005593 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:46:18 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:46:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F622F59.8020108@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:40:57 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Royal Purple II References: <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> <10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com> <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras> <5.2.1.1.0.20030912121318.02e44408@64.87.54.245> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030912121318.02e44408@64.87.54.245> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This page seems to be by the same chap; he's got a booklet about it all: http://www.historicdyes.co.uk/NjgyOTc_page_2.html There's more on the website than just this page. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 16:49:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKniVT030395 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:49:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKmotS018520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:48:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKmn2i023084; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:48:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com (gadolinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CKmk2i023023 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:48:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host81-129-99-184.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.129.99.184] helo=dan) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 19xuqT-0005gJ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:48:45 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c3796f$4f31cb60$b8638151@dan> From: "Stevie Gamble" To: "Historical Costume" References: <01aa01c371c9$fd10aec0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some News Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:49:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Penny wrote: >Back in June a reporter > from the Associated Press (AP) interviewed me about the history of pants in > America. ...... > Here are some links to the article. The interview with me is in the last > three paragraphs: > > http://www.boston.com/yourlife/fashion/articles/2003/08/11/fashion_lib erating_pants/ Well done! But what a shame they didn't get you to check the whole article- you could have pointed out that Ginger Rogers *did* wear pants when she danced with Fred Astaire, and caused a major fashion stir in so doing... best wishes, Stevie, embarking at random on a couple of months of h-cost mail. 1 down, 4,178 to go... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 17:40:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CLePVT030924 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:40:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CLdOtS022600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CLdJYa029331; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:39:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from traknet-fs3.traknet.com ([64.9.82.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8CLdGYa029290 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:39:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from WorkingGirl ([64.9.82.168]) by traknet-fs3.traknet.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:36:40 -0400 From: "Margaret Baird " To: Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:39:12 -0400 Message-ID: <000501c37976$4f1c6a70$a8520940@WorkingGirl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200309121803.h8CI2o6Y017116@net.indra.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Sep 2003 21:36:41.0052 (UTC) FILETIME=[F42229C0:01C37975] Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, Senior moment X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ron, Sorry you are of course right there. Most of my books are packed while I look for new digs and my memory slipped. Apologies, Margaret _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 20:35:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D0Z3VT001029 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:35:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D0YStS003723 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:34:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D0YNof004004; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:34:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9405.mail.yahoo.com (web9405.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8D0YJof003980 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:34:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030913003419.75354.qmail@web9405.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:34:19 PDT Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:34:19 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] Home from England trip To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <008101c37959$cabadd00$0200a8c0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Pam --congrats on being cancer free:) And may it stay that way! Cheers and Best--!! Albra David wrote: I have returned (and mostly recovered) from my grand England trip. In the interest of conserving bandwidth, I'll give a very brief overview now, and anyone interested in an in-depth blow-by-blow can email me, and I'll send it out to them when I get finished (or at least started) on writing it. With the exception of going light on paintings, I saw, at least briefly, nearly all the recommended sights, including most of 4 days spent at the Victoria and Albert. The only time I made it out of London was the one day I went to Bath, and saw the Costume Museum, amongst other things. I saw costumes and textile related stuff all over the place -- at Kensington Palace, in addition to the usual exhibits of presentation gowns, there were special exhibits of several of Di's gowns, and of the Queen's hats and handbags. There was a much bigger costuming chunk of stuff at the Globe than I had anticipated. At Buckingham Palace, I saw the Queen's Coronation gown -- exquisite! I saw Admiral Nelson's uniform from the Battle of Trafalgar (with the fatal bullet hole clearly visible!). I hit (and thoroughly enjoyed) every fabric store I could get to, even though I didn't purchase anything -- such willpower! I think in many ways, the highlight of the trip was the Queen Elizabeth I exhibit at Greenwich, so many, many items I've seen all my life in pictures, with the real, actual items right there in front of me, including the Pelican Portrait! It was what I came to call "a Rosetta Stone" moment. There were so many on this trip, including seeing *the* Rosetta Stone. I want to thank everyone who sent me advice, reassurance, and offered help for my trip (and I can now attest that Stevie Gamble is a terrifically wonderful lady!). My trip wouldn't have been as smooth or as great without everything y'all did for me. I am ever so grateful. And one last great thing -- since I've been home we've run CATscans and I've just been told that there is no sign of cancer on them! (Pam does the happy dance) I get to stay completely away from doctors until my next set of scans, in 3 months! Pam Dotson _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 20:56:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D0uAVT001261 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:56:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D0tgtS004531 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:55:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D0tdsL012328; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:55:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D0tasL012288 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:55:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10344 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:17:39 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:17:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [h-cost] Good news on the publications front X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Many of you know that each year, Gale Owen-Crocker and I (under the auspices of DISTAFF) organize several sessions on medieval dress and textiles at the Medieval Congress at Kalamazoo and the Medieval Congress at Leeds. And many of you have asked me over the years whether you can get published versions of the papers from these sessions, many of which present groundbreaking new findings in this field. I have always answered that question by explaining that the Congress does not publish proceedings, and individual presenters are responsible for finding publication venues on their own. However, because there is no journal specifically devoted to dress/textiles topics of this period, publication can be a real problem both for scholars trying to find a publishing venue and researchers interested in their work. New findings are often scattered piecemeal in journals in tangentially related areas (literature, art, archaeology, women's studies, etc.) or in volumes of "collected essays," often on some particular period or place. Too often they go unpublished. This situation is about to change. Boydell and Brewer, whom many of you know as a publisher very prominent in medieval studies and with a strong specialty in dress & textiles and material culture topics (they've reprinted the MOL books, for instance) are adding an academic journal, provisionally titled "Medieval Clothing & Textiles," to their extensive journal lineup. This journal will serve the dual purpose of providing a place for scholars in this area to publish interdisciplinary work that doesn't fit so neatly into more standard academic areas, and of making it easier for researchers to learn of new scholarship in this field. Like many of the other academic journals Boydell publishes, Medieval Clothing and Textiles will be annual. The first volume is targeted for publication in late 2004 or early 2005. Each volume will cover a range of places, periods, and disciplines - literature, art, documentary research, archaeology, trade/economics - and will include at least one paper concerned with experimental reconstruction of medieval techniques. It will also be peer-reviewed, of course; at this point the editorial board includes Frances Pritchard and John Hines from the UK, and Monica Wright, Miranda Haddock, and Shelly Nordtorp-Madson from the US (with further additions likely). Editors will be Gale Owen-Crocker and me. Boydell also are quite aware that non-academics make up a good proportion of their purchasing audience in material culture topics, so they will be marketing the new journal equally heavily to living historians, re-enactors, and independent scholars. (Some of you may remember me asking on this list a few months ago for names of organizations with an interest in this field; that was for use in our discussions with Boydell regarding mailing lists and marketing possibilities.) To begin with, we'll be drawing most of our papers from the DISTAFF sessions at Kalamazoo and Leeds, which include anywhere from 12 to 18 new papers each year. It is quite something to realize we're facing a new journal not with the typical worry of "will we get enough papers," but of "where will we put all the ones we have?" We have at least enough submissions promised to fill two or three volumes already, not counting the new ones generated from each Congress. It looks like I will be very, very busy in the coming months. Wish us luck! I'll keep you posted of developments. (And yes, I hope to have a paper of my own in the first volume, assuming I pass peer review ;-) ) You are welcome to forward this announcement to appropriate lists, but please drop me a note to tell me where it's going. I may eventually want to send follow-up announcements, and it's useful to know who's already heard. --Robin Co-Editor, Medieval Clothing & Textiles _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 21:50:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D1o4VT002058 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:50:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D1nKtS006774 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:49:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D1nJsL002407; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:49:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D1nGsL002394 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:49:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-171.75.223.36.dial1.saintlouis1.level3.net ([171.75.223.36] helo=Dan) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19xzXI-0002Ec-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:49:16 -0400 Message-ID: <001501c37999$9e6237e0$24df4bab@Dan> From: "Genie" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000601c3796b$9cc14800$0201a8c0@kimathlon> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sergers Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:51:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I use a White Speedylock 3-4 overlock. It uses regular Schmetz needles. No problems. Genie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Sergers > > > When I bought my little White, the repairwoman told me that the parts of > a > serger run with such small spaces that the serger needles are important. > I > used the wrong needles to the tune of $250 in repairs, so I always use > serger needles on that machine now. > > THAT may very well be true for White, a brand I wouldn't buy. Unless > your manual specifies otherwise, your serger can use any of the standard > Schmetz needles. > > Kim > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 22:36:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2aJVT002646 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:36:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2ZYtS008731 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:35:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2ZXgF019495; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:35:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2ZSgG019440 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:35:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8D2a86s011748 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:36:08 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8D2a7ka011746 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:36:07 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Good news on the publications front Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:36:07 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309122236.07241.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Friday 12 September 2003 09:17 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: [snip] > Boydell and Brewer, whom many of you know as a publisher very prominent in > medieval studies and with a strong specialty in dress & textiles and > material culture topics (they've reprinted the MOL books, for instance) > are adding an academic journal, provisionally titled "Medieval Clothing & > Textiles," to their extensive journal lineup. This journal will serve the > dual purpose of providing a place for scholars in this area to publish > interdisciplinary work that doesn't fit so neatly into more standard > academic areas, and of making it easier for researchers to learn of new > scholarship in this field. That's wonderful, Robin! By all means keep us updated. I for one will be interested in subscription rates. Many thanks for the advance announcement. -- Cathy Raymond "There are only two ways of telling the complete truth--anonymously and posthumously." Thomas Sowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 22:36:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2aTVT002650 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:36:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2a3tS008782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:36:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2a2gF019710; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:36:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2a0gF019671 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:36:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-004-059.jps.net ([216.119.4.59] helo=pavilion) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19y0GV-0006Tu-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:35:59 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c379a0$22053240$3b0477d8@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Good news on the publications front Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:38:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Excellent news for everyone Robin! Congratulations too! I like the bit about having at least one article about a reconstruction. No doubt you will keep us posted when the first edition is out. Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 22:40:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2eVVT002660 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:40:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2cRtS008882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:38:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2cQgF020641; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:38:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2cPgF020624 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:38:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from karen (CPE-24-31-232-172.kc.rr.com [24.31.232.172]) h8D2cNsN004558 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:38:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Talia" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Good news on the publications front Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:37:38 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <000801c379a0$22053240$3b0477d8@pavilion> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, wonderful news! I'll buy it every year in a snap, unless it costs some obscene amount of money... Talia > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Lisa Sinervo > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:39 PM > To: Historical Costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Good news on the publications front > > > Excellent news for everyone Robin! Congratulations too! I like the bit > about having at least one article about a reconstruction. No > doubt you will > keep us posted when the first edition is out. > > > Lisa Sinervo > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 12 22:53:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2rvVT002698 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:53:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2SFtS008388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:28:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2SEgF016844; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:28:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt2.ihug.co.nz (grunt2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.42]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D2SBgF016825 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:28:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p48-max8.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.204.112] by grunt2.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19y08u-0008IH-00; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:28:09 +1200 Message-ID: <005201c3799e$ab6ac240$70ccadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras><10c.29220cea.2c908b85@aol.com><002b01c37922$271d81c0$6c5183d1@rmitchellras><5.2.1.1.0.20030912121318.02e44408@64.87.54.245> <3F622E65.80504@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Royal Purple Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:28:06 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I wonder how much the extant royal purple dyed garments/items have faded or changed colour over the course of time. I know people talk about looking at the backs of embroideried to see the much brighter possibly real colour they were when made. Didn't Eleanora di Toledo's gown change colour and not just by fading, but base colour too? And wasn't it that it changed once the gown had been recoved? Not while it was still underground? michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 13 00:02:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D428VT003649 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 00:02:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D41gtS011873 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:01:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D41ecS021770; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D41acS021747 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:01:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11127 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:23:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:23:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Good news on the publications front In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Talia wrote: > Yes, wonderful news! I'll buy it every year in a snap, unless it costs > some obscene amount of money... One of the things we're still negotiating with the publisher is format, which governs price. Normally these journals are hardbound, which means their primary audience is university/college libraries; academics request their institutional library to order a copy. However, a disproportionate number of dress/textile researchers and enthusiasts are non-academics or independent scholars, who must purchase their own copies using their own funds. For this reason, we've strongly suggested that Boydell consider issuing the journal in paperback. If they sell in hardback, they may end up encouraging people to just ILL and Xerox rather than buying their own copies ... but they don't have to sell nearly as many to make back publishing costs. If they go for paper, they would need to sell perhaps twice as many paperbacks to break even. So the question is whether the lower price would translate into sufficient increased sales. The difference might be as much as $40 for a paperback vs. $75 for a hardback. I'd personally like to know how many people reading this would buy it in either case, how many would buy only at the paperback price, and how many would want it but wouldn't buy it at either price. Respond to me directly, not to the list, and only if you're a serious prospective customer. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 13 00:44:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D4iUVT004087 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 00:44:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D4hktS013252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:43:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D4hicS006347; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:43:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp-int-01.mx.pitdc1.stargate.net (smtp-int-01.mx.pitdc1.stargate.net [206.210.69.149]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D4hfcT006327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK) for ; Fri, 12 Sep 2003 22:43:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 5420 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2003 04:43:39 -0000 Received: from dap-208-166-66-247.erie-tnt-1.pa.erie.net (HELO castlebooks) ([208.166.66.247]) (envelope-sender )SMTP for ; 13 Sep 2003 04:43:39 -0000 Message-ID: <002a01c379b1$9a7113a0$f742a6d0@castlebooks> From: "Janet Davis" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Good news on the publications front Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 00:43:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8D4iUVT004087 Status: RO Well, as the most serious customer on the list (I buy in wholesale quantities), the cheaper paperback would be much better. Brewer & Boydell publish wonderful books, but even their paperbacks are too expensive. However, the desire for books on this topic is so great, that they will probably sell quite well. Both last year (when it first came out) and this year (when I thought most people would already have a copy), The Medieval Tailor's Assistant has been my best-selling book. I don't know if I'll order from them before KWCS, but if I do, I'll try to talk to somebody with some decision-making input and remind her of how well medieval costuming books sell. I've made a nuisance of myself before with them on this topic and I'm glad to see that my nagging them has born some fruit. Janet Janet Davis Castle Furnishings http://www.medievalbookstore.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 13 05:14:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D9EiVT012190 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:14:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D9E8tS022370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 13 Sep 2003 03:14:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D9E6Yd023628; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 03:14:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gw.retro.com (gw.retro.com [205.179.181.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D9E2Yd023111 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 03:14:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by gw.retro.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h8D9FDp11211 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:15:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Thompson-Herbert Message-Id: <200309130915.h8D9FDp11211@gw.retro.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] need bra site - please help X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Sorry for a second posting, but I would really like to find this site > again. Someone had posted a site that sold bras. The site did not carry > the "name" brand bras. It was not "Decent Exposures" either. The bras > were somewhat expensive, but very quality. I've searched the archives > and googled until I'm all "searched-out." If you have any suggestions, > please forward them. Maybe Big Girls Bras? http://www.biggerbras.com/ I know that's where I pointed people looking for front-closure and velcro-closure bras. Lee M.Thompson-Herbert lee@retro.com KoX 1995, SP4 Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades. "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 13 05:19:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D9JZVT012205 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 05:19:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D9JGtS022770 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 13 Sep 2003 03:19:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D9JDYd003922; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 03:19:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gw.retro.com (gw.retro.com [205.179.181.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8D9JBYd003904 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 03:19:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by gw.retro.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h8D9KMB11245 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 02:20:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Thompson-Herbert Message-Id: <200309130920.h8D9KMB11245@gw.retro.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, Robert Graves X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > From: "Margaret Baird " > > Although Robert Graves is best known for his historical novels (Caligula > and the like) The White Goddess is a non fiction exploration of ancient > poetic language and myth. Originally published in 1948 he was ,of > course, limited to the understandings of his time and whatever work had > been done before him, as are all of us who attempt to reach back into > the ancient past through what was left behind however scant that may be. > However the mythological sources of poetic images was his field of > studies and when I read it I don't recall that he referred to texts that > were no longer available. He does, as any scholar does, interpret the > evidence and as I neither read ancient Greek, nor Latin, nor Welsh I > have to bow to his interpretations of these works. Margaret Baird Most scholars consider "The White Goddess" to be a work of fiction these days. Ronald Hutton's chapter on Graves in "Triumph of the Moon" is especially illuminating. Graves really did use the "if you don't know, make something up" method of writing for "The White Goddess." Two other popular but sadly-outdated authors to beware of are Marija Gimbutas and Robert Campbell (his stuff on archetypes is interesting, but it's neither archeology nor psychology). And any author who claims that there was a Great Mother Goddess cult that spread all across Eurasia needs to go back and read current archeological research (which does not support that claim). Lee M.Thompson-Herbert lee@retro.com KoX 1995, SP4 Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades. "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 13 11:33:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8DFXqVT016047 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:33:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8DFXGtS007866 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 13 Sep 2003 09:33:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8DFXCYL012865; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 09:33:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m07.mx.aol.com (imo-m07.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.162]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8DFViYL011897 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 09:31:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from BOSTONHAHN@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.5f.3ed46d80 (3850) for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:31:29 -0400 (EDT) From: BOSTONHAHN@aol.com Message-ID: <5f.3ed46d80.2c949250@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:31:28 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Good news on the publications front To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10581 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin I forwarded your announcement to the Kingdom of Aethelmearc mailing list. address:sca-aethelmearc@andrew.cmu.edu Elisabeth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 13 23:27:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E3RpVT024099 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:27:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E3QptS012266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 13 Sep 2003 21:26:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E3QgsG007354; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 21:26:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.surewest.net (smtp2.surewest.net [208.45.228.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8E3QcsG007313 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 21:26:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 8265 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2003 03:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gateway) (216.93.210.89) by smtp2.surewest.net with SMTP; 14 Sep 2003 03:26:33 -0000 Message-ID: <0fe801c37a6f$f2456ae0$0300a8c0@gateway> From: "Joan Broneske" To: "H-Costume" Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:26:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-TST: smtp2 SNWK Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Simplicity pattern 5359 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8E3RpVT024099 Status: RO I just bought this pattern (Simplicity 5359 - Fantasy Belly dancer type outfit) and I noticed that the picture of outfit A on the front of the package is different than what the directions describe. It appears that there are either two contrasting colored "strips" on either side of the skirt, or some type of overskirt in the picture; however, in the directions and on the back of the package, it shows the skirt with a ruffle at the bottom and no "strips" or overskirt. Has anyone else bought and/or made this outfit? Has anyone else notice this difference in the skirt? I like the one on the front of the package, but the directions do not show how to make the skirt this way. Thanks, ,%%%, --==% `%%%, |' )`%%, \_/\ @%%, __@@" %%%--"""-.%, /`__| \%% \\ \ / | /'%, \] | /----'. < `%, Joan Broneske || `>> > unicorn@surewest.net || ///` /( //( _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 14 00:09:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E49lVT024279 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:09:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E49CtS013824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:09:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E49AxN023279; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:09:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f4.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.11.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E497xN023188 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:09:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 21:09:01 -0700 Received: from 12.231.218.121 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 04:09:01 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.231.218.121] X-Originating-Email: [distantdesigns@hotmail.com] From: "Jennifer Sena" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Simplicity pattern 5359 Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 21:09:01 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Sep 2003 04:09:01.0995 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE0ABFB0:01C37A75] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm making this in purple gold and silver for my daughter. Skirt A is eight panels with a ruffle that matches half of them. It gives the illusion of an overpanel skirt without two waisbands. It took me all evening to figure it for sure. I'm thinking of making the skirt solid and adding hemmed overpanels that are Not sewn into side seams. The picture gives the right illusion, but up close I think it would be odd/off. Jennifer Sena Distant Designs http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!! >From: "Joan Broneske" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: "H-Costume" >Subject: [h-cost] Simplicity pattern 5359 >Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:26:11 -0700 > >I just bought this pattern (Simplicity 5359 - Fantasy Belly dancer type >outfit) and I noticed that the picture of outfit A on the front of the >package is different than what the directions describe. It appears that >there are either two contrasting colored "strips" on either side of the >skirt, or some type of overskirt in the picture; however, in the directions >and on the back of the package, it shows the skirt with a ruffle at the >bottom and no "strips" or overskirt. Has anyone else bought and/or made >this outfit? Has anyone else notice this difference in the skirt? I like >the one on the front of the package, but the directions do not show how to >make the skirt this way. > > >Thanks, > > > ,%%%, > --==% `%%%, > |' )`%%, > \_/\ @%%, > __@@" %%%--"""-.%, > /`__| \%% > \\ \ / | /'%, > \] | /----'. < `%, >Joan Broneske || `>> > unicorn@surewest.net > || ///` > /( //( >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 14 00:26:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E4QoVT024571 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:26:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E4QBtS014497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:26:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E4QAxN029616; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:26:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from berlinr.sprint.ca (berlinr.sprint.ca [209.5.194.99]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E4Q7xN029593 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:26:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shooie ([149.99.69.238]) by berlinr.sprint.ca (InterMail vM.5.01.02.00 201-253-122-103-101-20001108) with SMTP id <20030914042605.NJYI3218.berlinr.sprint.ca@shooie> for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:26:05 -0400 Message-ID: <003b01c37a78$4ea4e740$cb6afea9@shooie> From: "Sheridan & Shane" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030829004101.15202.qmail@web10406.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it? Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:17:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claudine Wong Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 8:41 PM Subject: [h-cost] simplicty #5359 - what is it? > Hello everyone, > > I'm de-lurking for the first time because I'm sure > someone on the list can answer my question. Patterns > were on sale at Jo-ann, so I picked up this one: > > http://www.simplicity.com/assets/5359/5359.jpg > > I think the outfit on the left is really neat, but am > wondering what in real life it is based on. I did a > little searching on the web but haven't seen anything > that looks quite like this (ignoring the fabrics and > colors, I'm talking about he combination: puffy > panteloons, skirt, gathered blouse, vest, and > girdle-thingy). Have any of you seen such an outfit, > either historical or ethnic, or is it just fantasy? > > > > > Thanks bunches, > Claudine Hi! This is a rather late posting on this topic, my monitor set itself on fire about a week before your original post, and I finally replaced it yesterday! After wading through all of my backlogged email I finally have a chance to give you my two bits on this. :-) This is definitely a hodge-podge of different ethnic/timeline/fantasy/real garments. As stated in other posts, some are Indian, Greek and Turkish. This would be a useful pattern for people just starting into costuming for American Tribal dance or for a more modest 'bellydance' costume. (My first dance costume was a variation on the choli top shown in this pattern paired with a full skirt and an overskirt with a handkerchief hem, bright blue and gold) The picture with the 'harem' pants and skirt looks like the designers interpretation of a whirling costume. (As in whirling Dervish) The skirts I have tried on were patterend in a similar fashion as the one in the picture, with the addition of yards of heavy iron chain sewn into the hem to make it stand almost straight out when you spin. I have seen girls wear these skirts in pairs, and while they spin take the top skirt unhook it and move it up over their heads, looks lovely with the multi colours of the panels. The girls I danced with wore a narrower A-line skirt underneath the whirling skirts, but salwar or 'harem' pants would likely work as well. Timeline for that kind of an outfit would be the last century or so. (Note on 'harem' pants: the very poofy 'harem' pants are a late Ottoman empire style, post 1700. Prior to that the pants could be quite narrow, at least around the lower leg.) Over all, this is a wonderful start for a dance/haloween/fantasy costume but as a historical garment, the various bits are documentable but not as an entire outfit.That is unless you were copying an Orientalist painting or vintage Victorian/Edwardian postcard, which were an European fantasy of the Near East. Hope that helps! :-) Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 14 00:26:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E4QwVT024574 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:26:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E4QMtS014514 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:26:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E4QMxN029752; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:26:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from berlinr.sprint.ca (berlinr.sprint.ca [209.5.194.99]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8E4Q9xN029609 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:26:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shooie ([149.99.69.238]) by berlinr.sprint.ca (InterMail vM.5.01.02.00 201-253-122-103-101-20001108) with SMTP id <20030914042609.NJYQ3218.berlinr.sprint.ca@shooie> for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:26:09 -0400 Message-ID: <003c01c37a78$4f01fb60$cb6afea9@shooie> From: "Sheridan & Shane" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:23:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Subject: [h-cost] Looking for: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sorry, this is slightly off topic, but it does have to do with costuming. :-) Is anyone on this list in the Toronto area? I have recently moved to Ontario and I am looking for supplies to make dance costumes. Specifically sequinned appliques, coins and beaded fringe. I would like to know if anyone has come accross anything along those lines in their shopping excursions. Any info is helpful! Thanks in advance, Sheridan *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Thought For The Day: There is a very fine line between 'Hobby' and 'Mental Illness' _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 14 07:53:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8EBroVT006733 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:53:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8EBqgtS027343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:52:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8EBqeD7013358; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:52:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com (gadolinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8EBqbD7013287 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 05:52:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host81-128-232-39.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.128.232.39] helo=dan) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 19yVQi-00076q-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:52:36 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c37ab6$bff8dc60$27e88051@dan> From: "Stevie Gamble" To: Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:53:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [h-cost] Digital Egypt for Universities X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi all, I'm not sure whether this project has been mentioned before, but people interested in Egyptian costume might like to look at: http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/ for a vast amount of cross referenced information on all aspects of Egyptian life... best wishes Stevie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 14 08:41:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ECfBVT006892 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:41:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ECeftS028989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:40:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ECeeal027401; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:40:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ureach.com (mail.ureach.com [63.150.151.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ECebal027382 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:40:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail20.ureach.com (mail20.ureach.com [172.16.2.80]) by ureach.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA31368 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:40:36 -0400 Received: from TEENADESKTOP (adsl-19-104-203.asm.bellsouth.net [68.19.104.203]) by mail20.ureach.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA31364 for ; Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:40:36 -0400 Message-ID: <001401c37abd$1b6fdf70$240110ac@TEENADESKTOP> From: "Teena Paradise" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003c01c37a78$4f01fb60$cb6afea9@shooie> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking for: Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:38:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't know any sources for the items you seek. However, I was recently in the Toronto area for a couple of days and found a great fabric store. I was teaching at the Humber River Medical Center and it was in a mall right very close by it. I want to say that it was called Fabricland. In fact, I am almost positive that was the name of the store. It was in a tiny mall. Anyway, the store was big and they were having a huge sale on their upholstery and drapery fabric. I almost needed a second suitcase to come home. They had gorgeous double wide damask (108") for $12 Canadian! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheridan & Shane" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 12:23 AM Subject: [h-cost] Looking for: > Sorry, this is slightly off topic, but it does have to do with costuming. > :-) > > Is anyone on this list in the Toronto area? > > I have recently moved to Ontario and I am looking for supplies to make dance > costumes. Specifically sequinned appliques, coins and beaded fringe. I would > like to know if anyone has come accross anything along those lines in their > shopping excursions. > > Any info is helpful! > > Thanks in advance, > > Sheridan > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > Thought For The Day: > There is a very fine line between 'Hobby' > and 'Mental Illness' > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 09:01:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FD1FVT018817 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:01:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FD0FtS002434 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:00:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FD0AGj000377; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:00:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FD07Gj000354 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:00:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115])h8FCxwrx013919 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:00:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030915080138.00a0bb20@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:08:14 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking for: In-Reply-To: <003c01c37a78$4f01fb60$cb6afea9@shooie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The coins and beaded fringe could probably be found at bellydance suppliers. I did a web search for "Toronto coins and beaded fringe" & found this results: http://www.mayada.ca/torontosc.htm It recommends this place for some supplies: ARABESQUE BOUTIQUE 20 College St. Toronto, Ontario 416-920-5593 If nothing else, the people there should be able to give you the names of a few more places to try. Sheryl Nance-Durst At 12:23 AM 9/14/03 -0400, you wrote: >Is anyone on this list in the Toronto area? > >I have recently moved to Ontario and I am looking for supplies to make dance >costumes. Specifically sequinned appliques, coins and beaded fringe. I would >like to know if anyone has come accross anything along those lines in their >shopping excursions. > >Any info is helpful! > >Thanks in advance, > >Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 10:23:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FENEVT023207 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:23:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FEMMtS006942 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:22:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FEMIUP009742; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:22:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14003.mail.yahoo.com (web14003.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.94]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8FEMFUP009710 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:22:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030915142214.63237.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14003.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:22:14 BST Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:22:14 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <005201c3799e$ab6ac240$70ccadcb@michaela> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In fact, Eleonora was buried in a red satin and velvet gown, which was richly embroidered. According to the account of the opening of her tomb in 1857, she was found to have been buried wearing the gold and pearl hairnet seen in the better known Bronzino portrait, which may account for the misunderstanding that she was buried in the black velvet on white satin dress. There is another potrait of her attributed to Bronzino in a red dress which probably is the red dress she was buried in. The dress apparently was darker in the tomb than the painting, and may have faded after the tomb was opened. The Museo Nazionale del Bargello possesses two textiles manufactured in mid-16th-century Florence that are remarkably similar to the fabric of the more famous gown. However, the pieces are described as silver and white silk, with a design in green cut velvet, and gold and silver brocades. --- michaela wrote: > > Didn't Eleanora di Toledo's gown change colour and > not just by fading, but > base colour too? And wasn't it that it changed once > the gown had been > recoved? Not while it was still underground? ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 11:21:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FFL2VT023415 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:21:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FFIAtS011775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:18:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FFI8wC020285; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:18:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FFI1wC020088 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:18:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E229F19FC34 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:17:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F65D924.9000006@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:22:12 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress References: <20030915142214.63237.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Where did you get this information? This is not what Janet Arnold says. She says that they wrote that she was buried in "raso bianco" white satin. And the dress is now discoloured to a pale golden Yellow. I don't understand why people say that this dress looks like the white dress in the painting. The portrait I have found from Eleonora in a red dress with probably embroidery on it, doesn't look like the one she is burried in. The pattern looks totally different http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/pics/1560_1.shtml Is there an other painting of her in a red dress? I really would like to know. Greetings, Deredere Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: >In fact, Eleonora was buried in a red satin and velvet >gown, which was richly embroidered. According to the >account of the opening of her tomb in 1857, she was >found to have been buried wearing the gold and pearl >hairnet seen in the better known Bronzino portrait, >which may account for the misunderstanding that she >was buried in the black velvet on white satin dress. >There is another potrait of her attributed to Bronzino >in a red dress which probably is the red dress she was >buried in. The dress apparently was darker in the tomb >than the painting, and may have faded after the tomb >was opened. >The Museo Nazionale del Bargello possesses two >textiles manufactured in mid-16th-century Florence >that are remarkably similar to the fabric of the more >famous gown. However, the pieces are described as >silver and white silk, with a design in green cut >velvet, and gold and silver brocades. > > --- michaela wrote: > > > >>Didn't Eleanora di Toledo's gown change colour and >>not just by fading, but >>base colour too? And wasn't it that it changed once >>the gown had been >>recoved? Not while it was still underground? >> >> > > >===== > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! >Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 13:24:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FHOPVT027948 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:24:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FHMptS025114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:22:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FHMj9c010698; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:22:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FHMd9c010528 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:22:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA13219FB6A for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:22:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F65F65B.3010208@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:26:51 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: H-Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] More pictures of my 16th century dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I wore the dress yesterday to an archery competition (and won second prize :-) ). The front of the dress is still wrinkeling but the back isn't. It is a little too long and not stif enough. The headweare is a piece that looks a lot like a french hood but is lower and doesn' go over the ears. http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html This was the first time I wore my new corset for a whole day and it was so comfortable!!!!!! I made the corset from the book of Janet Arnold Patterns of fashion. You can see some pictures of the fhirst version on this page. http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Bluedress/Bluedress.html This one was too big on the top and to small at the waist. And a smaal piece of the schoulderstraps were placed the wrong way. Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 14:14:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FIEaVT028133 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:14:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FIDitS000425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:13:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FIDfP5024603; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:13:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FIDbP5024538 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:13:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptop.ntlworld.com ([80.5.59.86]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com ESMTP <20030915181332.GWBA26236.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@laptop.ntlworld.com> for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:13:32 +0100 Message-Id: <6.0.0.14.0.20030915191159.02173b30@pop.ntlworld.com> X-Sender: lynneconnolly@pop.ntlworld.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.14 (Beta) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:13:25 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Lynne Connolly Subject: Re: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress In-Reply-To: <3F65D924.9000006@kabelfoon.nl> References: <20030915142214.63237.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-C6581B; boundary="=======576B1A88=======" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --=======576B1A88======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-C6581B; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 16:22 15/09/2003 Deredere Galbraith said >Where did you get this information? >This is not what Janet Arnold says. >She says that they wrote that she was buried in "raso bianco" white satin. >And the dress is now discoloured to a pale golden Yellow. >I don't understand why people say that this dress looks like the white >dress in the painting. >The portrait I have found from Eleonora in a red dress with probably >embroidery on it, doesn't look like the one she is burried in. >The pattern looks totally different >http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/pics/1560_1.shtml >Is there an other painting of her in a red dress? I think it's this gown that she was buried in http://www.televisual.it/ppl/eleonor1.html Lynne Connolly, GSOLFOT Award winning Historical Romance author. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lynneconnolly/ The Richard and Rose books from Novelbooks Inc. YORKSHIRE, DEVONSHIRE and now VENICE. VANESSA from Awe-Struck --=======576B1A88======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --=======576B1A88=======-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 17:24:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FLOMVT028944 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:24:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FLNYtS019353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:23:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FLNUnn012385; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:23:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FLNRnn012328 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:23:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cindyabel (new-hslpharmacy.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) QAA01482 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:23:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:23:25 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F614DE3.7040800@earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] Blue dotted swiss use X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO For the person who was looking for an example of blue dotted Swiss with a white background. It may not be exactly the same, but a fashion plate from The Gallery of Fashion, August 1799 issue shows two models in mostly white outfits. The fashions shown in this journal that ran from 1794-1804 were "really existing ones" according to the publication "blurb" In this August 1799 plate, reproduced in my copy of "Jane Austen Fashion" by Penelope Byrd that I bought via Amazon.com.uk over two years ago this plate (is reproduced much smaller than the original plates but in color)the model on the right wears a white day gown spotted in blue, yellow gloves and a close-fitting cap. The spots/dots as illustrated are not as dense as on modern dotted Swiss, but there may be artistic license involved. The plates were hand-colored for each plate(usually two per issue)for each issue sold(scholars have approximated anywhere from 300+-800+ copies of each issue printed per month, so the more detail and the more colors to be applied, the more labor-intensive the plate.) The dress itself has a waistline slightly below the bust, but lower than what we call "Empire" and it has a slight point down at center front--kind of a raised waist. The fashions in this journal, published during a time of a real dearth of fashion publications(France was just coming out of "The Terror" in early 1794 and good French citizens were in general still wary of paying too much attention to fashion apart from a very few women attached to those in the highest government positions, for several more years)may be suprising to those who think that all women threw off all previous layers of fashion, apart from a chemise, a flimsy white gown, and a cashmere shawl. Most of the fashions up to 1801 or so, have a waistline that varies fashion to fashion and year to year from "Empire" to just above the normal waist, with belts and sashes confusing the issue as to just where a gown's waistline was. Sleeves were generally long or 3/4 and very often doubled to show the lower portion of undersleeve. It is clear that a chemise and at least one or more petticoats were worn underneath with stockings and shoes(not sandals and toe rings as the highest of the ton in Paris were supposedly tripping about in). Gloves, shawls, and properly filled in necklines as well as headgear were a must as was some back padding below the waistline underneath these gowns and petticoats. Most of the headgear was as imaginative as anything paraded down catwalks during Fashion Week today, and the English weather made umbrellas(usually green)or pelisses and fur muffs and sometimes narrow little stoles more a necessaty than an affectation decreed by Dame Fashion. Sachevelli Sitwell in his 1940's little history of the Gallery of Fashion, theorized that probably the plates were hand-colored by girls or women and that the plates were colored assembly line fashion with each employee responsible for one color only, with one or two other "specialists" who applied the more expensive silver-gilt and gold-gilt paint to details like jewelry or metal accents on each plate. This included metal details on horses bridles and vechicles and background. Hope this helps. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 18:46:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMkwVT029165 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:46:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMkKtS028378 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:46:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMkIVL021340; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:46:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMkDVL021231 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:46:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19z26m-0006jI-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:46:12 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:46:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c37bdb$31fdd980$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.14.0.20030915191159.02173b30@pop.ntlworld.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8FMkDVL021231 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This topic comes up every few years. Neither of these dresses are the one in Arnold. I'll poke around for a copy of the painting of it. The dress is a rose color and has the bands and construction in Arnold. >http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/pics/1560_1.shtml I think it's this gown that she was buried in http://www.televisual.it/ppl/eleonor1.html _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 18:59:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMxSVT029203 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:59:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMtQtS029481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:55:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMtOd5028319; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:55:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMtLd5028264 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:55:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19z2Fb-0006Fh-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:55:19 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:55:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000801c37bdb$31fdd980$6501a8c0@SG01> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8FMtLd5028264 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If you have a copy of The Pictoral Encyclopedia of Fashion by Ludmila Kybalova, there is a picture on page 345. This painting is by Angelo Bronzino and is (was?) in the Nardoni Galerie, Prague. If you can't find it online, I will scan it and put it up on my website for a period of time. (Don't want to get into trouble!) -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 3:46 PM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: RE: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress This topic comes up every few years. Neither of these dresses are the one in Arnold. I'll poke around for a copy of the painting of it. The dress is a rose color and has the bands and construction in Arnold. >http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/pics/1560_1.shtml I think it's this gown that she was buried in http://www.televisual.it/ppl/eleonor1.html _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 19:00:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FN0VVT029219 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:00:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMxstS029989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:59:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMxrd5001818; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:59:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FMxod5001794 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:59:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19z2Jy-0005fl-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:59:50 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:00:03 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c37bdd$193b4750$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8FMxod5001794 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO While looking for the below mentioned picture I came across another which I'd not seen before. http://reisserbilder.at/en/index.asp?aid=1106 This looks like the same dress one of the previously listed posts, but the colors are different. This is NOT the one in the book below. -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 3:56 PM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: RE: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress If you have a copy of The Pictoral Encyclopedia of Fashion by Ludmila Kybalova, there is a picture on page 345. This painting is by Angelo Bronzino and is (was?) in the Nardoni Galerie, Prague. If you can't find it online, I will scan it and put it up on my website for a period of time. (Don't want to get into trouble!) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 19:43:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FNhPVT029669 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:43:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FNgGtS005234 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:42:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FNg6d5000288; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:42:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ohsmtp01.ogw.rr.com (ohsmtp01.ogw.rr.com [65.24.7.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FNfkd5029953 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:41:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from duncan (dhcp024-209-056-164.neo.rr.com [24.209.56.164]) by ohsmtp01.ogw.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with SMTP id h8FNfjGX016920 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> From: "ailith" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:41:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings Saragrace. I've already got it scanned. It's up temporarily at: http://www.geocities.com/brendoken/eleanora.html This image is better than in the Pictoral Encyclopedia of Fashion. It is from a newer book called "Bronzino's Chapel of Eleonora in the Palazzo Vecchio," by Janet Cox-Rearick, published in 1993. Since I love Bronzino so much, a friend thought I needed to own the book--so she got it for me for my birthday! Kate ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress > If you have a copy of The Pictoral Encyclopedia of Fashion by Ludmila > Kybalova, there is a picture on page 345. This painting is by Angelo > Bronzino and is (was?) in the Nardoni Galerie, Prague. If you can't find it > online, I will scan it and put it up on my website for a period of time. > (Don't want to get into trouble!) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 19:47:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FNlUVT029693 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:47:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FNkvtS005870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:46:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FNkud5003227; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:46:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8FNkrd5003195 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:46:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19z33V-0000Fn-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:46:53 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:47:06 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c37be3$abf1f7a0$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh this is a MUCH better copy! Thanks! (I snagged it; I promise not to share it). Sg -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of ailith Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 4:42 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) Greetings Saragrace. I've already got it scanned. It's up temporarily at: http://www.geocities.com/brendoken/eleanora.html This image is better than in the Pictoral Encyclopedia of Fashion. It is from a newer book called "Bronzino's Chapel of Eleonora in the Palazzo Vecchio," by Janet Cox-Rearick, published in 1993. Since I love Bronzino so much, a friend thought I needed to own the book--so she got it for me for my birthday! Kate ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 6:55 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress > If you have a copy of The Pictoral Encyclopedia of Fashion by Ludmila > Kybalova, there is a picture on page 345. This painting is by Angelo > Bronzino and is (was?) in the Nardoni Galerie, Prague. If you can't find it > online, I will scan it and put it up on my website for a period of time. > (Don't want to get into trouble!) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 21:41:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1f4VT030539 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:41:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1dstS019195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:39:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1dova006493; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:39:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1dmva006465 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:39:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from alderweb.vaxxine.com (ppp7.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.215.7]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1dknC026307 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:39:46 -0400 (EDT) X-RCPT-To: Message-Id: <4.3.0.20030915214031.00cad170@pop.vaxxine.com> X-Sender: alderweb@pop.vaxxine.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:52:12 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: David Webb Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking for: In-Reply-To: <003c01c37a78$4f01fb60$cb6afea9@shooie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello from another Canadian Sheridan!: Have you tried MacDonald and Faber ?: DALE SONIER MACDONALD FABER 952 QUEEN ST WEST TORONTO, ON M6J 1G8 PHONE: (416) 534-3940 CALL FOR FREE @ I 877 NOTIONS(668-4667) FAX: (416) 534-4187 EMAIL: macfab@on.aibn.com httphttp://www.macdonaldfaber.com My personal little heaven is Designer Fabrics, also on Queen Street, in the Parkdale area. Designer Fabrics & Designer Fabric Outlet 1360 Queen Street West Toronto, Ontario M6K 1L7 Phone: (416) 531-2810 Fax: (416) 531-4114 http://www.designerfabrics.ca/ Sheridan Alder At 12:23 AM 14/09/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Sorry, this is slightly off topic, but it does have to do with costuming. >:-) > >Is anyone on this list in the Toronto area? > >I have recently moved to Ontario and I am looking for supplies to make dance >costumes. Specifically sequinned appliques, coins and beaded fringe. I would >like to know if anyone has come accross anything along those lines in their >shopping excursions. > >Any info is helpful! > >Thanks in advance, > >Sheridan > >*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Thought For The Day: >There is a very fine line between 'Hobby' >and 'Mental Illness' > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 21:49:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1nQVT030556 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:49:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1mQtS019615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:48:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1mPva010814; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:48:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from obsidian.spiritone.com (obsidian.spiritone.com [216.99.193.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1mLvb010745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:48:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by obsidian.spiritone.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8G1vZJr014013 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:57:36 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:50:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <000401c37be3$abf1f7a0$6501a8c0@SG01> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This portrait and the other you mentioned at: >http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/pics/1560_1.shtml always break my heart. Eleonora looks so tired and sad. I gather she was dying even then. Of course I have the romantic idea that Bronzino loved the great lady that he painted so often. Even in these paintings which show her as an older and dying woman she has a quality about her. Of course the cynic may say that was what he was paid for, and anything else would have seen him packing his workshop, but I prefer the idea that she was his great lady. I just ordered a new book "Bronzino" by Maurice Brock, published in 2002 from Amazon.com. The no shipping charge made it cheaper than buying one of the used copies. I also utilized Interlibrary Loan to get the Bronzino's Chapel of Eleonora that Kate mentioned. I do so love living in a small city with a great county library! Regina Romsey > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On > Behalf Of ailith > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 4:42 PM > To: Historical Costume > Subject: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) > > Greetings Saragrace. > > I've already got it scanned. It's up temporarily at: > http://www.geocities.com/brendoken/eleanora.html > > This image is better than in the Pictoral Encyclopedia of Fashion. It > is from a newer book called "Bronzino's Chapel of Eleonora in the > Palazzo Vecchio," by Janet Cox-Rearick, published in 1993. Since I > love Bronzino so much, a friend thought I needed to own the book--so > she got it for me for my birthday! > > Kate > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 21:59:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1xoVT030652 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:59:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1xKtS020269 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:59:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1xJGG015687; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:59:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from orval.sprint.ca (orval.sprint.ca [209.5.194.98]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G1xGGG015641 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:59:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shooie ([149.99.67.44]) by orval.sprint.ca (InterMail vM.5.01.02.00 201-253-122-103-101-20001108) with SMTP id <20030916015915.WDUL11123.orval.sprint.ca@shooie> for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:59:15 -0400 Message-ID: <001801c37bf6$21180760$cb6afea9@shooie> From: "Sheridan & Shane" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4.3.0.20030915214031.00cad170@pop.vaxxine.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Looking for: Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:59:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi everyone! Thanks for the addresses, I'm actually up in Sudbury which is why I was asking for any favorites/specifically known locations. I'll be having to drive down for shopping, so it's good to have an idea of where to start. Last spring when I came from Saskatoon for a visit to Oakville, we did a day trip and hit Kensington and the Sari district. Did a fair amount of damage in the Sari shops, let me tell you! Now that we are settled in and my sewing room is set up its time to re-stock my fabric piles. Once again thanks everyone for the info! Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 15 23:00:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G30XVT031053 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:00:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G2xxtS023537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:59:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G2xtlM012941; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:59:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8G2xplM012917 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:59:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19z64E-0003IL-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:59:51 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:00:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c37bfe$a1341300$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Wanda, I am interested in what you are saying here, but am not following it... "Of course the cynic may say that was what he was paid for, and anything else would have seen him packing his workshop" Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 16 11:30:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8GFUOVT013576 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:30:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8GFRltS025915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:27:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8GFRcdP026726; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:27:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8GFRXdP026560 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:27:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from reddawn.net (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF99425CE for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:28:45 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <3F672A1C.8060108@reddawn.net> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:19:56 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress References: <20030915142214.63237.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> <3F65D924.9000006@kabelfoon.nl> In-Reply-To: <3F65D924.9000006@kabelfoon.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Deredere Galbraith wrote: > Where did you get this information? > This is not what Janet Arnold says. > She says that they wrote that she was buried in "raso bianco" white satin. > And the dress is now discoloured to a pale golden Yellow.... > > Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: > >> In fact, Eleonora was buried in a red satin and velvet >> gown, which was richly embroidered.... I looked at the Arnold book last night. She says Eleanora was buried wearing two gowns. The white satin one with the embroidered guards on the front which may have originally come from another (possibly black velvet dress) and a red velvet and satin undergown. According to her description the red velvet dress was not embroidered. She shows a sketch of the bodice and it is quite plain. The skirt to it is missing. Also, according to her notes the corpse was not identified in the tomb, but merely "believed" to be that of Eleanora based on the clothing she was wearing since it resembled some of her portraits. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 16 14:11:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8GIBvVT015989 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:11:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8GI9BtS010606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:09:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8GI91DC007552; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:09:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8GI8wDC007505 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:08:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19zKG0-0005wO-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:08:56 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:09:11 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c37c7d$a1bd7490$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F672A1C.8060108@reddawn.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8GI8wDC007505 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hmm, good detective work. I guess none of the portraits are of the burial gown. The rose one, now that I look at it doesn't have the center guard and the guards are less complex. -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Dawn Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 8:20 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Eleonora's Dress Deredere Galbraith wrote: > Where did you get this information? > This is not what Janet Arnold says. > She says that they wrote that she was buried in "raso bianco" white satin. > And the dress is now discoloured to a pale golden Yellow.... > > Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: > >> In fact, Eleonora was buried in a red satin and velvet >> gown, which was richly embroidered.... I looked at the Arnold book last night. She says Eleanora was buried wearing two gowns. The white satin one with the embroidered guards on the front which may have originally come from another (possibly black velvet dress) and a red velvet and satin undergown. According to her description the red velvet dress was not embroidered. She shows a sketch of the bodice and it is quite plain. The skirt to it is missing. Also, according to her notes the corpse was not identified in the tomb, but merely "believed" to be that of Eleanora based on the clothing she was wearing since it resembled some of her portraits. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 16 22:07:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8H270VT020967 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:07:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8H24ntS022056 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:04:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8H24luI025206; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:04:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from citrine.spiritone.com (citrine.spiritone.com [216.99.193.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8H24iuJ025183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:04:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by citrine.spiritone.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8H267Kf005534 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:06:08 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:07:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <000001c37bfe$a1341300$6501a8c0@SG01> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I only meant that Bronzino was certainly well paid for his likenesses of Eleonora, the matriarch of the Medici clan. Painters certainly went out of their way then, as photographer's do now to flatter their sitters. Possibly if he had portrayed her as wrinkled, sagging, or old he would have been sacked and other patrons would have avoided him like the plague. On the other hand, I prefer to believe that he loved and respected a great lady who had been his patroness since she was a young mother. Wanda > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:00 PM > To: 'Historical Costume' > Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) > > > Hi Wanda, I am interested in what you are saying here, but am not > following > it... > > "Of course the cynic may say that was what he was paid for, and anything > else would have seen him packing his workshop" > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 09:24:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HDOxVT032267 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:24:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HDO9tS021748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:24:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HDNOF9013625; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:23:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HDNKF9013523 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:23:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.113] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id AF5818A9008A; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:19:20 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c37d1f$72dc3c40$715183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "H-Costume" Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:27:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] antique hoops X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8HDOxVT032267 Among my 19th C hoops, are three mid century models. Two of these have buttonholes in the waist tapes. What garment would have bourn the weight with buttons? The petticoat? Corset cover? corset? The two also have a leather 'placket' that was either tied or laced at the center front. My take on this style is that they would better accommodate a belly of "age", or condition. Any comments or help greatly appreciated. Kathleen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 10:55:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HEtfVT000682 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:55:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HErktS027814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:53:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HEriAP007033; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:53:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.uvm.edu (badger.uvm.edu [132.198.101.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HErfAP006991 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:53:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uvm.edu (ip104036.uvm.edu [132.198.104.36]) by smtp.uvm.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HErd54010216 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:53:40 -0400 Message-ID: <3F687575.5060001@uvm.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:53:41 -0400 From: Hope Greeenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@net.indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] More Tudor Hats X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Last week we had an interesting discussion about Tudor hats. I decided to look some up and post a few images. You'll find some bonnets for both men and women at: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/bonnet.html Enjoy! - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 11:44:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HFi8VT001124 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:44:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HFhQtS002606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:43:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HFhAR4024753; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:43:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8HFh3R4024579 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:43:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 1483 invoked from network); 17 Sep 2003 15:43:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ) (209.142.2.50) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2003 15:43:02 -0000 Received: from 162.119.64.111 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com) by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) From: To: In-Reply-To: <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> References: <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Greetings Saragrace. > > I've already got it scanned. It's up temporarily at: > http://www.geocities.com/brendoken/eleanora.html > > This image is better than in the Pictoral Encyclopedia of Fashion. It is > from a newer book called "Bronzino's Chapel of Eleonora in the > Palazzo Vecchio," by Janet Cox-Rearick, published in 1993. Since I love > Bronzino so much, a friend thought I needed to own the book--so she got > it for me for my birthday! This is a great picture! But my first reaction at seeing it was--it's a copy. It wasn't uncommon, from what I understand, to copy paintings and/or change the features of a painting within a school of artists. For example, there are four copies if the Eleanora wedding dress, one of which is in a small museum in Sacramento, California. The reason why I get the impression that this is a copy is twofold--one is that her face is exactly the same as in the wedding portrait (white satin dress) http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/bronzino/p-bronzino4.htm and second is that the pose is exactly the same as a portrait that Bronzino did of a young girl with a prayer book http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/bronzino/p-bronzino16.htm I am not trying to burst anybody's bubble with this info, I just don't think that we should use the portrait as primary evidence if it is truly not a portrait done with the artitst and subject in the same room. Respectfully, Diana _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 12:35:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HGZZVT001437 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:35:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HGYrtS007480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:34:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HGYpJ0007528; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:34:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HGYiJ1007334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:34:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8HGf2AC003192 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:41:03 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F688D4C.6090001@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:35:24 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) References: <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> In-Reply-To: <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com dch@inreach.com wrote: > I just don't > think that we should use the portrait as primary evidence if it is truly > not a portrait done with the artitst and subject in the same room. On the other hand, it is held as "common knowledge" (in art classes) that many portrait paintings were done in several stages -- with the person portrayed actually in front of the painter for a short time. Details of the clothing might be added later, in a session with just the clothing on a manniquin or lower-rank person. Several hundred years later, I expect even a full-time art historian would not have access to the work-diary of an artist, to know if Lady X was there the whole time, or if he might have made some things up. A painter of the time was probably quite familiar with how clothing was supposed to look, so even his inventions would be fairly accurate. So I believe there's only so fine a line you can draw in most cases -- "Is this portrait contemporary with the person portrayed?" Much finer than that is probably impossible from this era. On a tangential quibble, it is my understanding that a portrait cannot be considered primary source for anything other than portraits themselves. An actual dress is the primary source for a dress; a picture of a dress is a secondary source for a dress. Mind you, a contemporary portrait is usually an excellent source, it's just not a primary one. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent If you're constantly expanding, you never wrinkle! -- Sherman's Lagoon _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 12:40:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HGeWVT001448 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:40:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HGdltS007965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:39:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HGdlJ0011497; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:39:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HGdgJ0011432 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:39:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-008-240.jps.net ([216.119.8.240] helo=w7m1l6) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19zfLC-0003Fa-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:39:42 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01c37d3a$05069b00$f00877d8@w7m1l6> From: "Stephen Bergdahl" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:37:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 08dba192340bde6e1a6ab3b9b70940f894f5150ab1c16ac0175e62059bacab527d44d32b37f820961ea1b629626d2d13350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ---- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) > For example, there are four copies > if the Eleanora wedding dress, one of which is in a small museum in > Sacramento, California. > Ok, ruffled feathers here. You are speaking of the Crocker, which is considered one of the finest art museum in Northern California. It may not be the largest museum in the state, but it is one of the best. Also a little known fact is the Crocker also holds the one of the largest collections of clothing covering the history of California ranging from the 1800's to modern day. Now if they would just put the whole lot on the web. Stephen Bergdahl One thing you got to say about the Republicans, they don't give up easily. Impeach Clinton, steal Florida, redistrict Texas, recall Davis. You know what , these guys had better watch out or they're going to get slapped with the reputation of being extremely sore losers. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 13:34:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHYhVT001846 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:34:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHXmtS021057 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:33:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHXiIA028000; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:33:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHXfIA027923 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:33:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234])h8HHXc8k029846 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030917132133.00b96370@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:33:44 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart In-Reply-To: <3F688D4C.6090001@thibault.org> References: <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] pictoral evidence, paintings. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8HHYhVT001846 Hello - Cynthia is quite right in stating - "that many portrait paintings were done in several stages -- with the person portrayed actually in front of the painter for a short time. Details of the clothing might be added later, in a session with just the clothing on a manniquin or lower-rank person." I can add that inventories of the artists workshops also reflect the clothing that they held for customers who were in process of portraits. And some articles of clothing that were indeed owned by the workshop or on loan from pawn brokers. An excellent example of a dress in the posession of a workshop comes from the English records of H. Holbein. One dress is seen in both "Laïs of Corinth" at http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/hholbein2/p-hholbein2-10.htm and agian in "Venus and Cupid" http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/hholbein2/p-hholbein2-9.htm >Mind you, a contemporary portrait is usually an excellent source, it's >just not a primary one. Gotta agree with that... unless we have the actual garment in hand, we can only deduce it's construction. Depending on the accuracy of the artist, we might get quite close to the look, but without the original, we can't be -sure-. Bridgette _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 13:39:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHdGVT001881 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:39:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHcYtS021491 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:38:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHcWIA001999; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:38:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHcOIA001889 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:38:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptop.ntlworld.com ([80.5.59.86]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com ESMTP <20030917173823.KSAR26236.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@laptop.ntlworld.com> for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:38:23 +0100 Message-Id: <6.0.0.14.0.20030917183355.021cdd18@pop.ntlworld.com> X-Sender: lynneconnolly@pop.ntlworld.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.14 (Beta) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:38:17 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Lynne Connolly Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) In-Reply-To: References: <000001c37bfe$a1341300$6501a8c0@SG01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1B40366D; boundary="=======109E6421=======" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --=======109E6421======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1B40366D; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 03:07 17/09/2003 Wanda Pease said >I only meant that Bronzino was certainly well paid for his likenesses of >Eleonora, the matriarch of the Medici clan. Interesting thing about Bronzino, and one of the reasons he was so popular as a portraitist, especially amongst the parvenu Dukes of Florence. You can't look his sitters straight in the eye. The effect is usually called "The Bronzino Squint" by art historians, and was taken up by other portraitists of the time (but not Holbein). Lynne Connolly, GSOLFOT Award winning Historical Romance author. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lynneconnolly/ The Richard and Rose books from Novelbooks Inc. YORKSHIRE, DEVONSHIRE and now VENICE. VANESSA from Awe-Struck --=======109E6421======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --=======109E6421=======-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 13:57:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHvIVT002680 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:57:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHuUtS023281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:56:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHuSiZ017241; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:56:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHuOiZ017195 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:56:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptop.ntlworld.com ([80.5.59.86]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com ESMTP <20030917175623.MKSI29665.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@laptop.ntlworld.com> for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:56:23 +0100 Message-Id: <6.0.0.14.0.20030917183939.0225d880@pop.ntlworld.com> X-Sender: lynneconnolly@pop.ntlworld.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.14 (Beta) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:56:14 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Lynne Connolly Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) In-Reply-To: <3F688D4C.6090001@thibault.org> References: <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1B40366D; boundary="=======13DE7207=======" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --=======13DE7207======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1B40366D; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 17:35 17/09/2003 Cynthia Virtue said >Several hundred years later, I expect even a full-time art historian would >not have access to the work-diary of an artist, to know if Lady X was >there the whole time, or if he might have made some things up. A painter >of the time was probably quite familiar with how clothing was supposed to >look, so even his inventions would be fairly accurate. In this period, it was usual for an artist to have a scuolo, or workshop. There would be painters from every stage in the workshop, from apprentices to masters. The apprentice would rarely touch the canvas or fresco, but would learn to mix the pigments and varnishes, learning the techniques of painting over years. When a painting is by "Bronzino," for example, several hands were involved in the finished work. There were drapery experts, who would do the clothes, and hand experts, who would - you guessed it. The Master would usually do the face, though sometimes, if he was busy, he would do one 'master' of the face, and then the other likenesses would be taken from that. Michelangelo started his career in the studio of successful artist Ghirlandaio, in fact it is possible that his first sight of the Sistine Chapel was when he was an apprentice helping Ghirlandaio do the walls in the chapel. Leonardo worked at Verrocchio's studio. Bronzino was Pontormo's pupil. This practice continued well into the eighteenth century, especially in the field of commercial portraiture. A sitter would expect to sit for the face and perhaps (though not always) the hands. The master would do a detailed sketch and then the sitter would send the clothes to the studio. There, the finished portrait would be worked up. It wasn't so much flattery, as a depiction of a person's station in life and their importance. Portraits, apart from portraits of donors in religious frescos, didn't really come into use until the end of the fifteenth century, earlier in more avant garde centres like Florence and Milan. The development of the oil and canvas technique, rather than tempera or fresco, did a lot to popularise the genre, as did the Reformation. You see, artists previously employed in churches and monasteries now needed something else to do. Hans Holbein Senior was a religious artists, painting a number of alterpieces in his time. His son, Hans Holbein the Younger, painted almost exclusively portraits, mostly of the English Court and the Humanist scholars of the early sixteenth century. I'll shut up now. I hope something was of interest to you. Lynne Connolly, GSOLFOT Award winning Historical Romance author. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lynneconnolly/ The Richard and Rose books from Novelbooks Inc. YORKSHIRE, DEVONSHIRE and now VENICE. VANESSA from Awe-Struck --=======13DE7207======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --=======13DE7207=======-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 14:00:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI05VT002719 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:00:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHwwtS023513 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:58:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHwwiZ019311; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:58:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from secure4.netll.com ([216.139.205.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHwoia019221 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:58:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.20) id 19zgZt-0006K5-Dd for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:58:57 -0400 From: "Your Name" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.25 X-IPAddress: 165.235.242.125 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:58:57 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > For example, there are four copies > > if the Eleanora wedding dress, one of which is in a small museum in > > Sacramento, California. > > > > Ok, ruffled feathers here. You are speaking of the Crocker, which is > considered one of the finest art museum in Northern California. It may not > be the largest museum in the state, but it is one of the best. Hear hear! The Crocker, for anyone who has never actually been to it, is an AMAZING museum. It's also pretty large. Not on the scale of the Met or anything, but it's definitely a respectible size. The Crocker also houses a small collection of Flemish artwork including a Brueghal "Peasant Dance" painting and a few early German 16th century paintings. The collection really picks up around the 1650 mark, though, with some extraordinary Dutch portraits from the middle of the 17th century onwards. There's a gorgeous gold worked bed spread from the 18th century that hangs on the wall up there with the Dutch paintings, too, that is absolutely to die for. It's an excellent source for studying goldwork embroidery as it's in plain view without any glass around it. We Sacramentans really love our Crocker, that's for sure. ;P > Also a > little known fact is the Crocker also holds the one of the largest > collections of clothing covering the history of California ranging from the > 1800's to modern day. Now if they would just put the whole lot on the web. I don't think I've seen much of that on display even at the museum... The largest collection of clothing actually on display I've come across used to be at the History Museum in Old Sac, now the Discovery Museum. I'm not sure if it's still there, as I've not been since it changed hands. Does the Crocker actually display their collection to the public? I'm trying to remember seeing any clothing there in recent memory and I can't seem to recall any. Sarah http://www.elizabethanlady.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 14:00:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI0DVT002726 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:00:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHxJtS023553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:59:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHxIiZ019556; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:59:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from secure4.netll.com (secure4.netll.com [216.139.205.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHxGia019528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:59:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.20) id 19zgaI-0006LF-Kt for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:59:22 -0400 From: "Your Name" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.25 X-IPAddress: 165.235.242.125 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:59:22 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > For example, there are four copies > > if the Eleanora wedding dress, one of which is in a small museum in > > Sacramento, California. > > > > Ok, ruffled feathers here. You are speaking of the Crocker, which is > considered one of the finest art museum in Northern California. It may not > be the largest museum in the state, but it is one of the best. Hear hear! The Crocker, for anyone who has never actually been to it, is an AMAZING museum. It's also pretty large. Not on the scale of the Met or anything, but it's definitely a respectible size. The Crocker also houses a small collection of Flemish artwork including a Brueghal "Peasant Dance" painting and a few early German 16th century paintings. The collection really picks up around the 1650 mark, though, with some extraordinary Dutch portraits from the middle of the 17th century onwards. There's a gorgeous gold worked bed spread from the 18th century that hangs on the wall up there with the Dutch paintings, too, that is absolutely to die for. It's an excellent source for studying goldwork embroidery as it's in plain view without any glass around it. We Sacramentans really love our Crocker, that's for sure. ;P > Also a > little known fact is the Crocker also holds the one of the largest > collections of clothing covering the history of California ranging from the > 1800's to modern day. Now if they would just put the whole lot on the web. I don't think I've seen much of that on display even at the museum... The largest collection of clothing actually on display I've come across used to be at the History Museum in Old Sac, now the Discovery Museum. I'm not sure if it's still there, as I've not been since it changed hands. Does the Crocker actually display their collection to the public? I'm trying to remember seeing any clothing there in recent memory and I can't seem to recall any. Sarah http://www.elizabethanlady.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 14:00:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI0ZVT002731 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:00:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHxYtS023579 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:59:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHxYiZ019765; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:59:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from secure4.netll.com (secure4.netll.com [216.139.205.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HHxVia019720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:59:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.20) id 19zgaY-0006Mm-77 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:59:38 -0400 From: "Your Name" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.25 X-IPAddress: 165.235.242.125 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:59:38 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > For example, there are four copies > > if the Eleanora wedding dress, one of which is in a small museum in > > Sacramento, California. > > > > Ok, ruffled feathers here. You are speaking of the Crocker, which is > considered one of the finest art museum in Northern California. It may not > be the largest museum in the state, but it is one of the best. Hear hear! The Crocker, for anyone who has never actually been to it, is an AMAZING museum. It's also pretty large. Not on the scale of the Met or anything, but it's definitely a respectible size. The Crocker also houses a small collection of Flemish artwork including a Brueghal "Peasant Dance" painting and a few early German 16th century paintings. The collection really picks up around the 1650 mark, though, with some extraordinary Dutch portraits from the middle of the 17th century onwards. There's a gorgeous gold worked bed spread from the 18th century that hangs on the wall up there with the Dutch paintings, too, that is absolutely to die for. It's an excellent source for studying goldwork embroidery as it's in plain view without any glass around it. We Sacramentans really love our Crocker, that's for sure. ;P > Also a > little known fact is the Crocker also holds the one of the largest > collections of clothing covering the history of California ranging from the > 1800's to modern day. Now if they would just put the whole lot on the web. I don't think I've seen much of that on display even at the museum... The largest collection of clothing actually on display I've come across used to be at the History Museum in Old Sac, now the Discovery Museum. I'm not sure if it's still there, as I've not been since it changed hands. Does the Crocker actually display their collection to the public? I'm trying to remember seeing any clothing there in recent memory and I can't seem to recall any. Sarah http://www.elizabethanlady.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 14:09:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI9AVT002775 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:09:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI84tS024449 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:08:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI7piZ027282; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:07:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from secure4.netll.com (secure4.netll.com [216.139.205.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI7mia027230 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:07:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.20) id 19zgiZ-000746-9J for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:07:55 -0400 From: "Your Name" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.25 X-IPAddress: 165.235.242.125 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:07:55 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com AAAACK! My computer hicuped!!! Appologies to the list!!! Sarah http://www.elizabethanlady.com > > > > For example, there are four copies > > > if the Eleanora wedding dress, one of which is in a small museum in > > > Sacramento, California. > > > > > > > Ok, ruffled feathers here. You are speaking of the Crocker, which is > > considered one of the finest art museum in Northern California. It > may not > > be the largest museum in the state, but it is one of the best. > > Hear hear! The Crocker, for anyone who has never actually been to it, > is an AMAZING museum. It's also pretty large. Not on the scale of > the Met or anything, but it's definitely a respectible size. The > Crocker also houses a small collection of Flemish artwork including a > Brueghal "Peasant Dance" painting and a few early German 16th century > paintings. The collection really picks up around the 1650 mark, > though, with some extraordinary Dutch portraits from the middle of the > 17th century onwards. There's a gorgeous gold worked bed spread from > the 18th century that hangs on the wall up there with the Dutch > paintings, too, that is absolutely to die for. It's an excellent > source for studying goldwork embroidery as it's in plain view without > any glass around it. > > We Sacramentans really love our Crocker, that's for sure. ;P > > > Also a > > little known fact is the Crocker also holds the one of the largest > > collections of clothing covering the history of California ranging > from the > > 1800's to modern day. Now if they would just put the whole lot on > the web. > > I don't think I've seen much of that on display even at the museum... > The largest collection of clothing actually on display I've come > across used to be at the History Museum in Old Sac, now the Discovery > Museum. I'm not sure if it's still there, as I've not been since it > changed hands. > > Does the Crocker actually display their collection to the public? I'm > trying to remember seeing any clothing there in recent memory and I > can't seem to recall any. > > Sarah > http://www.elizabethanlady.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > -- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 14:14:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HIEGVT002871 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:14:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI7EtS024385 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:07:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI7CiZ026687; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:07:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HI74ia026495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:07:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8HIDNAC003390 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:13:23 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F68A2F0.8030406@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:07:44 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] pictoral evidence, paintings. References: <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20030917132133.00b96370@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030917132133.00b96370@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com M Stewart wrote: > An excellent example of a dress in the > posession of a workshop comes from the English records of H. Holbein. > One dress is seen in both > "Laïs of Corinth" at > http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/hholbein2/p-hholbein2-10.htm and agian in "Venus > and Cupid" http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/hholbein2/p-hholbein2-9.htm That's really keen! Does some record talk about the dress? Not knowing, I would have guessed one was a copy (well, mostly) of the other, rather than both from the same dress. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent "It's Senator Joe McCarthy, Mr. Ashcroft -- he wants his personality back." -- DTWOF _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 15:15:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HJFLVT003297 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:15:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HJECtS000123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:14:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HJE9Ax022220; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:14:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from nycsmtp3out.rdc-nyc.rr.com (nycsmtp3out.rdc-nyc.rr.com [24.29.99.224]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HJE5Ax022140 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:14:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Martha (24-90-86-111.nyc.rr.com [24.90.86.111]) with SMTP id h8HJE3YA021951 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:14:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Martha Kelly" To: Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:14:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Re. hoops X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Lloyd Would it be possible for you to post pictures of these hoops? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 15:20:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HJKsVT003341 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:20:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HJJvtS000608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:19:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HJJrAx026998; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:19:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14006.mail.yahoo.com (web14006.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h8HJJoAx026941 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:19:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030917191949.23630.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14006.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:19:49 BST Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:19:49 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Another Bronzino Portrait X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com http://www.geocities.com/ailithmac/portraits.html Eleonora di Toledo and her Son Francesco Agnolo Bronzino, circa 1549 Cincinnati Museum of Art, Cincinnati, Ohio I have not been able to verify the location of this painting. The Cincinnati Art Museum does not show it in their online catalog. At least that I can find in the indexes and search engine. ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 16:36:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HKaaVT003975 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:36:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HKZAtS024351 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:35:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HKZ7kZ018342; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:35:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HKZ5kZ018307 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:35:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234])h8HKZ18k006045 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:35:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030917162523.00b96140@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:35:09 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] pictoral evidence, paintings. In-Reply-To: <3F68A2F0.8030406@thibault.org> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030917132133.00b96370@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20030917132133.00b96370@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8HKaaVT003975 I ran across the reference in a book titled "Renaissance Clothing and the Materials of Memory" very interesting research into the role of clothing. Bridgette >That's really keen! Does some record talk about the dress? Not knowing, >I would have guessed one was a copy (well, mostly) of the other, rather >than both from the same dress. > >>An excellent example of a dress in the posession of a workshop comes from >>the English records of H. Holbein. >>One dress is seen in both >>"Laïs of Corinth" at >>http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/hholbein2/p-hholbein2-10.htm and agian in "Venus >>and Cupid" http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/hholbein2/p-hholbein2-9.htm _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 17:03:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HL3CVT004202 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:03:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HL2N76000409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:02:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HL2JZh012133; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:02:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from janus.directcon.net (janus.directcon.net [206.170.184.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HL2CZh012038 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:02:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dnyeaqvf (net15sp13.directcon.net [209.79.209.13] (may be forged)) by janus.directcon.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h8HL6Ov06051; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:06:24 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030917140046.00ca5670@pop.directcon.net> X-Sender: margospatterns@pop.directcon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:00:46 -0700 To: Historical Costume , Historical Costume From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >Does the Crocker actually display their collection to the public? I'm >trying to remember seeing any clothing there in recent memory and I >can't seem to recall any. I've never seen any clothing on display there, although I understand there's a secret vault full of treasures somewhere. Maybe those of us in the area should do some agitating, or if it's a problem of funding for proper display, that could be a community service project for the Sacramento Costumer's Guild. I remember seeing Patty Reed's wedding dress at Sutter's Fort when I was a child, but it's no longer there either. As I recall, it was tiny, I could have fitted into it as a large eight year old. I've always wondered if that year of starvation as a child (she was one of the Donner Party) stunted her growth. Margo "One Tough Costumer" www.margospatterns.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 17:17:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HLHbVT004304 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:17:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLGp76001792 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:16:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLGkZh024597; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:16:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.185]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8HLGgZh024529 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:16:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-118-215-145.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@67.118.215.145 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Sep 2003 21:16:42 -0000 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:14:47 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Sarah To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20030917140046.00ca5670@pop.directcon.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [h-cost] Historical Clothing collections in the Sacramento Area X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I've never seen any clothing on display there, although I understand > there's a secret vault full of treasures somewhere. Maybe those of us > in > the area should do some agitating, or if it's a problem of funding for > proper display, that could be a community service project for the > Sacramento Costumer's Guild. Sounds like a fun one. Now that I think of it, I think there is a tiny amount of clothing on display at the Crocker in one of two rooms they "preserved" in the mansion, circa 1890 or so. Of course, you can't get anywhere near close to the dresses... > I remember seeing Patty Reed's wedding dress at Sutter's Fort when I > was a > child, but it's no longer there either. As I recall, it was tiny, I > could > have fitted into it as a large eight year old. I've always wondered if > that > year of starvation as a child (she was one of the Donner Party) > stunted her > growth. I've been recently informed that a museum in Folsom has a fabulous 19th century clothing collection, but it's not on display. My costuming instructor at ARC mentioned it a few weeks ago and I've been curious as to whether or not they'd let students in to see the collection. Unfortunately, I can't recall the name of the museum... Argh! Anyone the list know the museum in question? Sarah http://www.elizabethanlady.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 17:35:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HLZ0VT004412 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:35:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLYH76003451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:34:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLYFZh009423; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:34:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLXkZh009061 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:33:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-29-203.o1.jps.net ([216.119.29.203] helo=w7m1l6) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19zjvl-0000Si-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:33:45 -0700 Message-ID: <005901c37d63$19345440$cb1d77d8@w7m1l6> From: "Stephen Bergdahl" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:31:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 08dba192340bde6e1a6ab3b9b70940f894f5150ab1c16ac0175e62059bacab52786f32f776ab99083fca192d13eebf12350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Your Name" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) > > I don't think I've seen much of that on display even at the museum... > The largest collection of clothing actually on display I've come > across used to be at the History Museum in Old Sac, now the Discovery > Museum. I'm not sure if it's still there, as I've not been since it > changed hands. > > Does the Crocker actually display their collection to the public? I'm > trying to remember seeing any clothing there in recent memory and I > can't seem to recall any. The Crocker shows only a small part of there clothing collection. Most of it is stored in the basement. But you can arrange at tour if you wish. It's well worth the trouble. The Discovery Museum has a much smaller collection, but they show more of it. Some very lovely stuff. Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich "This ring, no other, is made by the elves, Who'd pawn their own mother to grab it themselves. Ruler of creeper, mortal, and scallop, This is a sleeper that packs quite a wallop. The Power almighty rests in this Lone Ring. The Power, alrightly, for doing your Own Thing. If broken or busted it cannot be remade If found, send to Sorhed (the postage is prepaid)." _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 17:36:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HLaIVT004418 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:36:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLXc76003392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:33:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLXbZh008951; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:33:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from joplin.siteprotect.com (joplin.siteprotect.com [64.26.0.58]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLXXZh008833 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:33:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from GENTEELARTS (user40.net627.oh.sprint-hsd.net [65.41.48.40]) by joplin.siteprotect.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h8HLXRc26120 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:33:27 -0500 From: "Carolann Schmitt" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] antique hoops Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:33:24 -0400 Message-ID: <002401c37d63$536b2170$0200a8c0@GENTEELARTS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <000c01c37d1f$72dc3c40$715183d1@rmitchellras> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kathleen, The opening or "placket" that you mentioned is so you get the crinoline on and off. Without it the crinoline would never go past your shoulders and/or hips. Leather is used as a reinforcement because it was stronger and less likely to permit the ends of the wires to poke through; however, I have found several crinolines that used a heavy cotton instead of the leather. Where are the buttonholes located on the waistband? Do these crinolines also have the buckle attached? I've examined a number of original crinolines where the size of the waistband was altered with the additions of buttons and button holes, or the addition of two buttonholes (one at either end of the waistband) tied together with a string. Carolann Schmitt cschmitt@genteelarts.com www.genteelarts.com Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 5-7, 2004 Among my 19th C hoops, are three mid century models. Two of these have buttonholes in the waist tapes. What garment would have bourn the weight with buttons? The petticoat? Corset cover? corset? The two also have a leather 'placket' that was either tied or laced at the center front. My take on this style is that they would better accommodate a belly of "age", or condition. Any comments or help greatly appreciated. Kathleen _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 17:36:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HLaoVT004426 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:36:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLa376003637 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:36:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLa2Zh010994; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:36:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ohsmtp03.ogw.rr.com (ohsmtp03.ogw.rr.com [65.24.7.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLZsZh010898 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:35:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from duncan (dhcp024-209-056-164.neo.rr.com [24.209.56.164]) by ohsmtp03.ogw.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with SMTP id h8HLZrSK029511 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00c701c37d63$a74f6b20$1902a8c0@duncan> From: "ailith" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030917191949.23630.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:35:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [h-cost] Re: Another Bronzino Portrait X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Yes, it's there--or at least it was. It's been at least 6 years since I was there, though. It's a copy. One that's been badly restored, too. I can't remember exactly what happened to it--if it was water or fire damage. The original is in Italy. If someone has the Magnificanza catalog, the original is shown in it. It's one of the pieces that didn't travel, if I'm remembering correctly (much to my disappointment!). Kate who really means to move those images to a more permanent site one of these days... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catalina Sanabria Rosado" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 3:19 PM Subject: [h-cost] Another Bronzino Portrait > http://www.geocities.com/ailithmac/portraits.html > > Eleonora di Toledo and her Son Francesco > Agnolo Bronzino, circa 1549 > Cincinnati Museum of Art, Cincinnati, Ohio > > > I have not been able to verify the location of this > painting. The Cincinnati Art Museum does not show it > in their online catalog. At least that I can find in > the indexes and search engine. > > > ===== > > > ______________________________________________________________________ __ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 17:45:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HLjlVT004611 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:45:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLio76004431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:44:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLilZh017961; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:44:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HLiiZh017914 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 15:44:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 216-119-29-203.o1.jps.net ([216.119.29.203] helo=w7m1l6) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19zk6L-0003Xt-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:44:42 -0700 Message-ID: <006201c37d64$a08e7c80$cb1d77d8@w7m1l6> From: "Stephen Bergdahl" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historical Clothing collections in the Sacramento Area Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:42:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 08dba192340bde6e1a6ab3b9b70940f894f5150ab1c16ac0175e62059bacab525f5dc54d2288ae62c80e2301d4f45bc0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 2:14 PM Subject: [h-cost] Historical Clothing collections in the Sacramento Area > > I've been recently informed that a museum in Folsom has a fabulous 19th > century clothing collection, but it's not on display. My costuming > instructor at ARC mentioned it a few weeks ago and I've been curious as > to whether or not they'd let students in to see the collection. > Unfortunately, I can't recall the name of the museum... Argh! Anyone > the list know the museum in question? > > Sarah That would be the Folsom History Center. It's has a great collection, but like so many city museums it has no space and little funding. But I am sure if you call and ask them they would be more than willing to arrange a tour. Here in Sacramento, we have what is known as "The Warehouse". It's the spare display items that belong to the state museums, Fort Sutter, the Governor's Mansion and the like. It hold are Large collection of every day clothes that most places are not interested in seeing, but have historical value. Shirts wore by so-and-so that sort of things. To see it you have to know the right people, and it is in the middle of no where. But it has some fascinating stuff. One of the more interesting things there is a small drawstring bag from the 1850's. The bag itself is nothing special until you figure out that it was made from 18 separate pieces of fabric. Goes to show you how costly fabric use to be if they were willing to piece that many scrapes to just make a bag. Stephen Bergdahl One thing you got to say about the Republicans, they don't give up easily. Impeach Clinton, steal Florida, redistrict Texas, recall Davis. You know what , these guys had better watch out or they're going to get slapped with the reputation of being extremely sore losers. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 18:29:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8HMTeVT004784 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:29:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HMSf76008394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:28:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HMScQU023792; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:28:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8HMSXQU023721 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:28:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09584 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:50:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:50:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8HMSXQU023721 Subject: [h-cost] Kass's patterns, 16th-17th c. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I don't usually read threads about post-medieval costume, so I may have missed a mention of this, but if not, I figured people here would be interested. I was just talking with Kass McGann, of the "Reconstructing History" site, and learned she is developing a line of costume patterns. There's a writeup and pictures at her site -- go to http://www.reconstructinghistory.com and click on "patterns" at the left. I wouldn't know how to evaluate anything from these periods, but I know Kass's work in other areas and would expect these to be pretty good. I asked her what she's got coming up, and here's what she told me: << The first collection includes patterns suitable for Cavalier/English Civil War and 30 Years War events and the long-awaited 16th/17th century Irish collection. There will be three 1630s patterns available in time for the Known World Costuming Symposium in Denver and St. Mary's Grand Militia Muster in Maryland on 18 October. These patterns are: Women's 1600-1660s Caps Men's and Women's 1630s Collars and Cuffs Men's and Women's 17th century Shirt and Shift Four more 1630s patterns will follow hot on their heels (they may even be available on 18 October, but I don't want to make that promise). These are: Women's 1630s Bodice and Petticote Men's 1630s Doublet Men's 1630s Breeches Men's Cassock and Cape And the first five Irish 16th century patterns will be available in time for Christmas. They are: The Shinrone Gown Women's Léine The Kilcommon Jacket, Trews and Cloak Men's Léine The Dungiven Jacket, Trews and Cloak All my patterns will be available at Grannd.com as well as at retail and online sites throughout the reenactment and costuming community. >> Hope that's of interest. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 20:36:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I0aAVT005593 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:36:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I0Yr76016493 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:34:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I0YlGe009101; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:34:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt6.ihug.co.nz (grunt6.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I0YgGe009050 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:34:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p397-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.193.143] by grunt6.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19zmkp-00031G-00; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:34:40 +1200 Message-ID: <005801c37d7c$a1929220$8fc1adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com><000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01><007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan><54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com><5.2.1.1.2.20030917132133.00b96370@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> <3F68A2F0.8030406@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] pictoral evidence, paintings. Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:34:32 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > An excellent example of a dress in the > posession of a workshop comes from the English records of H. Holbein. > One dress is seen in both > "Laïs of Corinth" at > http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/hholbein2/p-hholbein2-10.htm and agian in "Venus > and Cupid" http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/hholbein2/p-hholbein2-9.htm <> I'm pretty sure they painted at very different times, and places... http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/h/holbein/hans_y/1525/11venus.html Painted in Basle http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/h/holbein/hans_y/1528/1lais_co.html Painted in England (the link would suggest 1528 but the page says 1526) So do the records say that he took the dress with him to England, or just that the dress was painted from an example in his workshop? The two figures are also so very alike I'd have thought the Lais was a reworking of the figure in a different context. Her headdress is the same, her idealised features mostly the same... The slashing of the bodice is different though, and there is the addition of slashed sleeves in the Lais, and of course different belts... Love the venus one... hmmm... I'd be very keen to know of the notes. Must do a search. What source mentions the dress in records? michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 22:06:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I26JVT006074 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:06:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I25V76020457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:05:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I25Slg017917; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:05:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I25Plg017857 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:05:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.101] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id A1F5394A00D0; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:01:25 -0400 Message-ID: <001f01c37d89$eb2a10e0$655183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re. hoops Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:09:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sorry, Martha, but not at this time. Not the right equipment. I am in the process of taking measurements and drawing a description from them that I hope will give some picture of what I am dealing with. Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martha Kelly" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 3:14 PM Subject: [h-cost] Re. hoops > Lloyd > > Would it be possible for you to post pictures of these hoops? > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 22:25:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I2PKVT006132 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:25:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2O776021455 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:24:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2O6lg026199; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:24:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav3.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2O3lg026142 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:24:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:23:57 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav3.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 02:23:57 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Kass's patterns, 16th-17th c. Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:25:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Sep 2003 02:23:57.0840 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA200900:01C37D8B] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I was just talking with Kass McGann, of the "Reconstructing History" site, > and learned she is developing a line of costume patterns. > Hope that's of interest. > --Robin Oh yes it is of interest. Kass is the one who got me started costuming when I first joined the SCA, and I still refer newbies to her site. Her research I've seen so far has been very good, and I think she's tackling an era where few really good patterns exist. I just hope they're not too expensive, because if I buy one and see that I like the format, I'll probably be tempted to buy the whole line! (Now I wish someone would make patterns for early period (bliauts, t-tunics) so we can refer newbies to something better than Simplicity. I don't need a pattern for those, and most people wouldn't need one either if they had the courage to try it, but some people just can't do it without a real printed pattern. :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 22:34:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I2YRVT006150 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:34:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2Xf76021836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:33:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2Xdlg000347; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:33:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pop2a.ripco.com (pop2a.ripco.com [209.100.227.25]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2Xalg000321 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:33:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ripco.com (tcr154.dynip.ripco.net [209.100.226.154]) by pop2a.ripco.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2XMuQ008532 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:33:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3F691976.9080108@ripco.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:33:26 -0500 From: zski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com References: <200309180206.h8I25uli018097@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Crockett stuff X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Does the Crocker actually display their collection to the public? I'm trying to remember seeing any clothing there in recent memory and I > can't seem to recall any. ------------- It might be worth getting a group togetehr and arranging a tour. The Chicagoland Costumer's Guild got a tour of the Costume Collection belonging to the Chicago Historical Society. We weren't allowed to touch anything, of course, but hat with the little leather lobsters on it - they looked like little Muppets! The lady who took us around was very friendly, and thrilled to have people to discuss her obsession with! I recall that she actually showed us a new acquisition and asked if any of us could date it. Karen could! ::waving 'hello' to Karen:: Having an official organization like the Costumer's Guild to work through helped wit the arrangements, I'm sure. Give it a try - it is SO worth it! Wendy Z two weeks left of MiRF! Chicago, IL _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 22:51:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I2pGVT006220 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:51:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2oH76022799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:50:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2oGlg007786; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:50:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I2oClg007703 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:50:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.101] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id AC77153500B2; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:46:15 -0400 Message-ID: <002501c37d90$2eada380$655183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <002401c37d63$536b2170$0200a8c0@GENTEELARTS> Subject: Re: [h-cost] antique hoops Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:54:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Carolann, thank you for your comments. One of the hoops is my great, great grandmother's and this particular one has the top tier of wires set 9' below the waistband and thus does not require the 'placket opening' (my term). The waist is about 30" and appears to be original; the bottom rim is 32", back length is 38" to waist and the front is 33". There are 15 wires set 2" apart on a twill tape 1 3/4". The waist was fastened with a pin. Fits well under costumes of the mid1865-1870. I have now identified two hoops as described this AM, with waist bands that fastened with ties, but that had 5 buttonholes each around the back of the band, or rather equally spaced over all the waist band.. The ends of the band are finished with two lacing holes for the tie. Measurements: Waist 26 1/2"; Length is 36, back, and 32" front. The bottom rim is 31". The front 'Placket" is 8", of leather. There are 15 wires from bottom to the opening, with another 5 wires to the waist. There is a second hoop that is rather like this one in size and arrangement, except that the "placket" is of canvas. A fourth one has a 24" waist, is 30" diameter of the bottom rim. This waist band has three buttonholes centered from the center back. The wires number 17, set 1 3/4" apart to the hipline and the placket on this one is not quite open, but the 5 wires above are kept in line with (the intended) help of elastic cords. The size and shape of this one puts it firmly for the under prop for the late 70's. There are no signs of buckles. The hoops have been found in New England as well as western Pa; the buttonholes are hand-worked, while the 'grommet' holes for the ties appear to be machine worked. Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolann Schmitt" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 5:33 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] antique hoops > Kathleen, > > The opening or "placket" that you mentioned is so you get the crinoline on > and off. Without it the crinoline would never go past your shoulders and/or > hips. Leather is used as a reinforcement because it was stronger and less > likely to permit the ends of the wires to poke through; however, I have > found several crinolines that used a heavy cotton instead of the leather. > > Where are the buttonholes located on the waistband? Do these crinolines > also have the buckle attached? I've examined a number of original > crinolines where the size of the waistband was altered with the additions of > buttons and button holes, or the addition of two buttonholes (one at either > end of the waistband) tied together with a string. > > Carolann Schmitt > cschmitt@genteelarts.com > www.genteelarts.com > Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 5-7, 2004 > > > > > > Among my 19th C hoops, are three mid century models. Two of these have > buttonholes in the waist tapes. What garment would have bourn the weight > with buttons? The petticoat? Corset cover? corset? The two also have a > leather 'placket' that was either tied or laced at the center front. My > take on this style is that they would better accommodate a belly of "age", > or condition. > Any comments or help greatly appreciated. > Kathleen > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 17 23:59:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I3xTVT006520 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:59:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I3t17G025977 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:55:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I3mDxR003628; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:48:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from joplin.siteprotect.com (joplin.siteprotect.com [64.26.0.58]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I3mAxR003568 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:48:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from GENTEELARTS (user40.net627.oh.sprint-hsd.net [65.41.48.40]) by joplin.siteprotect.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h8I3m5E03650 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:48:05 -0500 From: "Carolann Schmitt" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] antique hoops Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:48:01 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c37d97$a91f4b80$0200a8c0@GENTEELARTS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <002501c37d90$2eada380$655183d1@rmitchellras> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kathleen, I think the buttonholes in the back were used to secure a detachable bustle pad. If the hoops are even slightly elliptical in shape they tend to say in the back, especially if the wearer doesn't have much natural padding. :-) I'm just logging off for the evening, but will re-read your message tomorrow; I know I have some other questions for you. Carolann Schmitt cschmitt@genteelarts.com www.genteelarts.com Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 5-7, 2004 Carolann, thank you for your comments. One of the hoops is my great, great grandmother's and this particular one has the top tier of wires set 9' below the waistband and thus does not require the 'placket opening' (my term). The waist is about 30" and appears to be original; the bottom rim is 32", back length is 38" to waist and the front is 33". There are 15 wires set 2" apart on a twill tape 1 3/4". The waist was fastened with a pin. Fits well under costumes of the mid1865-1870. I have now identified two hoops as described this AM, with waist bands that fastened with ties, but that had 5 buttonholes each around the back of the band, or rather equally spaced over all the waist band.. The ends of the band are finished with two lacing holes for the tie. Measurements: Waist 26 1/2"; Length is 36, back, and 32" front. The bottom rim is 31". The front 'Placket" is 8", of leather. There are 15 wires from bottom to the opening, with another 5 wires to the waist. There is a second hoop that is rather like this one in size and arrangement, except that the "placket" is of canvas. A fourth one has a 24" waist, is 30" diameter of the bottom rim. This waist band has three buttonholes centered from the center back. The wires number 17, set 1 3/4" apart to the hipline and the placket on this one is not quite open, but the 5 wires above are kept in line with (the intended) help of elastic cords. The size and shape of this one puts it firmly for the under prop for the late 70's. There are no signs of buckles. The hoops have been found in New England as well as western Pa; the buttonholes are hand-worked, while the 'grommet' holes for the ties appear to be machine worked. Kathleen http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 00:35:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I4ZbVT006951 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:35:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4Yt76027905 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:34:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4Ysj4022595; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:34:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9401.mail.yahoo.com (web9401.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8I4Ypj4022575 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:34:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030918043451.67678.qmail@web9401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:34:51 PDT Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:34:51 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Bronzino Portrait To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20030917191949.23630.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Some really nice portraits here--some I had'nt seen before :) This is very timely for me--since this is the time period and country I've been looking at recently .Thanks so much for sharing! Albra Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: http://www.geocities.com/ailithmac/portraits.html Eleonora di Toledo and her Son Francesco Agnolo Bronzino, circa 1549 Cincinnati Museum of Art, Cincinnati, Ohio I have not been able to verify the location of this painting. The Cincinnati Art Museum does not show it in their online catalog. At least that I can find in the indexes and search engine. ===== ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 00:47:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I4lGVT006978 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:47:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4kj76028593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:46:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4kij4027239; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:46:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4kgj4027224 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:46:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from user-33qtkcd.dialup.mindspring.com ([199.174.209.141] helo=pavilion) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19zqgd-0006Bn-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:46:38 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c37da0$228840a0$8dd1aec7@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030917191949.23630.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> <00c701c37d63$a74f6b20$1902a8c0@duncan> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:48:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [h-cost] the homeless high fashion look X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Has anyone else noticed that the shoe styles popular at the moment, the ones with no covering for the heels are exactly how many homeless people adapt ill fitting shoes? Cutting the heels off a too small pair makes them wearable. I noticed this when I lived in New York City in the mid to late 80's, all these homeless people had shoes with the heels cut off and now it's high fashion! Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 00:54:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I4s7VT006992 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:54:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4rX76028910 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:53:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4rVj4000111; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:53:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (h-66-134-203-2.SNVACAID.covad.net [66.134.203.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4rSj4029969 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:53:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (mac.misc.com [192.168.254.109]) by misc.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8I4xnjp011904 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:59:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6938CF.6050403@misc.com> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:47:11 -0700 From: Theresa Eacker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Kass's patterns, 16th-17th c. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote (Pruning ensues): > (Now I wish someone would make patterns for early period (bliauts, t-tunics) > so we can refer newbies to something better than Simplicity. Fleur de Lys has a set of men's/women's/acces. patterns for early/Romanesque period. Would that fit the bill? Hope that helps, Theresa Eacker _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 00:57:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I4vnVT007005 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:57:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4vH76029040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:57:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4vGQK001612; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:57:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I4vFQK001604 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:57:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.mn.rr.com (CPE-24-163-203-84.mn.rr.com [24.163.203.84])h8I4vCbq026360 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:57:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20030917235429.03a4ceb0@pop-server.mn.rr.com> X-Sender: dannw@pop-server.mn.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:59:19 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) In-Reply-To: <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.c om> References: <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Greetings, I have actually seen other portraits (2 IIRC) with Eleanora wearing that gown - in both of those she is painted with her husband Cosimo. Also, I have read an article by the conservator of her burial garments and she describes them to match the painting (except possibly in colour - I don't remember that part and can't find what I've done with the article). The portraits can be found in the book "Medici Portraits." I have also read *somewhere* that her final illness was quite quick so she was buried in her favorite gown, with one of her sons who also died of the same illness. That being her favorite gown would explain the multiple portraits it is depicted in. Also, using the face on one painting as a model is not a surprise - look at the portraits of Elizabeth...and if a particular pose is fashionable, then it is no surprise it appears in multiple portraits... Oh, one other cool item from the conservator's article - Cosimo's bottoms (I can't remember if they were trunk hose or what) were made of wool felt. Cheers, Danielle At 08:43 AM 9/17/2003 -0700, you wrote: > > Greetings Saragrace. > > > > I've already got it scanned. It's up temporarily at: > > http://www.geocities.com/brendoken/eleanora.html > > > > This image is better than in the Pictoral Encyclopedia of Fashion. It is > > from a newer book called "Bronzino's Chapel of Eleonora in the > > Palazzo Vecchio," by Janet Cox-Rearick, published in 1993. Since I love > > Bronzino so much, a friend thought I needed to own the book--so she got > > it for me for my birthday! > >This is a great picture! > >But my first reaction at seeing it was--it's a copy. It wasn't uncommon, >from what I understand, to copy paintings and/or change the features of a >painting within a school of artists. For example, there are four copies >if the Eleanora wedding dress, one of which is in a small museum in >Sacramento, California. > > The reason why I get the impression that this is a copy is twofold--one >is that her face is exactly the same as in the wedding portrait (white >satin dress) > >http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/bronzino/p-bronzino4.htm > > and second is that the pose is exactly the same as a portrait that >Bronzino did of a young girl with a prayer book > >http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/bronzino/p-bronzino16.htm > >I am not trying to burst anybody's bubble with this info, I just don't >think that we should use the portrait as primary evidence if it is truly >not a portrait done with the artitst and subject in the same room. > >Respectfully, > >Diana > > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 03:51:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I7p1VT017216 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 03:51:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I7o676006600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:50:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I7o32n009313; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:50:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41508.mail.yahoo.com (web41508.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.91]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8I7o02n009255 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:50:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030918074955.88356.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.66.208.11] by web41508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:49:55 BST Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:49:55 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] Kass's patterns, 16th-17th c. To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --- Robin Netherton wrote: > > All my patterns will be available at Grannd.com as well as at retail and > online sites throughout the reenactment and costuming community. > >> > > Hope that's of interest. Well, that's of a lot of interest and I shall with baited breath await the release to give them a very good scrutiny and test and examination :-) So far haven't found _the_ 1630s patterns yet, even though there are loads around here in England. (not surprisingly *G*) Nicole ===== Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ Email: nicole@kipar.org URL: http://www.kipar.org ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 03:58:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I7wBVT021350 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 03:58:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I7vP76007513 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:57:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I7vOfB012089; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:57:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I7vAfB011908 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:57:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id h8I7vkA15871.; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:57:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:57:06 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.0 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:56:44 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Kass's patterns, 16th-17th c. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Great! I've been looking for a pattern for the Hollar cap for ages (it was discussed on this list a year or two ago). I hope they will be available in the UK. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 04:25:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8I8PDVT029351 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 04:25:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I8Jx76008160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 02:19:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8I8IcfB019153; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 02:18:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41510.mail.yahoo.com (web41510.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8I8IafB019123 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 02:18:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030918081831.15526.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.66.208.11] by web41510.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:18:31 BST Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:18:31 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] Kass's patterns, 16th-17th c. To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --- Kate M Bunting wrote: > Great! I've been looking for a pattern for the Hollar cap for ages (it > was discussed on this list a year or two ago). I hope they will be > available in the UK. Kate, perhaps we could order together and share the shipping :-) Nicole ===== Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ Email: nicole@kipar.org URL: http://www.kipar.org ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 07:13:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IBDDVT016120 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:13:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IBBP76015340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:11:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IBBLi5017176; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:11:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IBAhi5016557 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:10:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-64-175-33-27.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [64.175.33.27])h8IBAew5004239 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 06:10:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030918040659.05576570@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 04:07:50 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] pictoral evidence, paintings. In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030917132133.00b96370@postoffice8.mail.cornell .edu> References: <3F688D4C.6090001@thibault.org> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >I can add that inventories of the artists workshops also reflect the >clothing that they held for customers who were in process of portraits. There's a yellow jacket, trimmed in white fur, which appears in a least five Vermeer paintings I have seen. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 10:41:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IEfbVT020667 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:41:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IEcl76025394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:38:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IEcfs9021268; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:38:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav48.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IEccs9021190 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:38:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:38:33 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav48.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:38:32 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F6938CF.6050403@misc.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Kass's patterns, 16th-17th c. Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:39:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Sep 2003 14:38:33.0050 (UTC) FILETIME=[88FF5BA0:01C37DF2] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Eacker" > Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote (Pruning ensues): > > (Now I wish someone would make patterns for early period (bliauts, t-tunics) > > so we can refer newbies to something better than Simplicity. > Fleur de Lys has a set of men's/women's/acces. patterns for > early/Romanesque period. Would that fit the bill? > Hope that helps, > Theresa Eacker You're right. I'd totally forgotten about those. I don't know how accurate construction is, but the look is good. She even has an early 13th century pattern, a period of clothing that's usually skipped over in pattern lines and history books. (They usually jump from bliaut to sideless surcote, forgetting the style that comes just in between) It's Fleur de Lyse, with an "e", though, in case you're planning on Googling it. And the best thing is they're really close to Montreal! I can even buy them in French (my native language - it's always easier, even if I'm bilingual). And CDN dollars and low shipping for me when I decide to buy some :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 10:42:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IEgcVT020675 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:42:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IEfU76025563 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:41:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IEfUs9023102; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:41:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav35.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.92]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IEfRs9023016 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:41:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:41:22 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav35.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:41:21 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <5.0.0.25.2.20030917235429.03a4ceb0@pop-server.mn.rr.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:42:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Sep 2003 14:41:22.0059 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDBC15B0:01C37DF2] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ---- Original Message ----- From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" > portraits can be found in the book "Medici Portraits." I have also read Would you know, by any chance, if this is the book in which there is, supposedly, the elusive Laudomia de'Medici portrait, by Bronzino? If so, do you have the complete reference? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 14:52:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IIqLIO025559 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:52:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IInk76017117 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:49:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IInYV5015654; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:49:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IInVV5015606 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLF001YWAYHIY@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:51:29 -0700 From: Kimiko Small X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918114419.02ee6e58@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] some eBay books X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Here is an interesting book on eBay. Not sure if it relates to costuming specifically, but for those who like historical books of the Elizabethan era... 1558 Elizabethan England Facsimile Book http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2559256696&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 Description "The Quenes Maiesties Passage through the Citie of London to Westminster the Day before her Coronation " ;Edited by James M.Osborn And then there is: ANTIQUE BOOK COSTUME FASHION PRINTS FRENCH http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3243224024&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 Hope someone finds them of interest. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 15:06:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IJ6hIO025837 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:06:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IJ4976018151 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:04:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IJ47Hm027310; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:04:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8IJ44Hm027270 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:04:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 22612 invoked from network); 18 Sep 2003 19:04:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ) (209.142.2.50) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 18 Sep 2003 19:04:03 -0000 Received: from 162.119.64.111 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com) by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <10709.162.119.64.111.1063911843.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) From: To: In-Reply-To: <001a01c37d3a$05069b00$f00877d8@w7m1l6> References: <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <001a01c37d3a$05069b00$f00877d8@w7m1l6> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > ---- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:43 AM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) > > >> For example, there are four copies >> if the Eleanora wedding dress, one of which is in a small museum in >> Sacramento, California. >> > > Ok, ruffled feathers here. You are speaking of the Crocker, which is > considered one of the finest art museum in Northern California. It may > not be the largest museum in the state, but it is one of the best. Also > a little known fact is the Crocker also holds the one of the largest > collections of clothing covering the history of California ranging from > the 1800's to modern day. Now if they would just put the whole lot on > the web. > Stephen, You know me. I am not slandering the Crocker Art Museum. All I said was that it was a small museum (which it is) as opposed to a large one like the Boston MFA or the Getty. I hope your feathers return to normal shortly ;~> Diana _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 16:39:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IKd2IO028021 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:39:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IKaT76028995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:36:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IKaQ3F015120; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:36:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IKZw3F014681 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:35:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-57-241.jps.net ([209.165.57.241] helo=w7m1l6) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A05VL-000063-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:35:56 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c37e24$2ef5f7e0$f139a5d1@w7m1l6> From: "Stephen Bergdahl" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000b01c37bdc$77c708a0$6501a8c0@SG01> <007f01c37be2$eb24aae0$1902a8c0@duncan> <54320.162.119.64.111.1063813382.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <001a01c37d3a$05069b00$f00877d8@w7m1l6> <10709.162.119.64.111.1063911843.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Eleonora's Dress (scan) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:33:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 08dba192340bde6e1a6ab3b9b70940f894f5150ab1c16ac0175e62059bacab527c0f5090ddfc0c2c7e81a2da65f974b4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: > Stephen, > > You know me. I am not slandering the Crocker Art Museum. All I said was > that it was a small museum (which it is) as opposed to a large one like > the Boston MFA or the Getty. > > I hope your feathers return to normal shortly ;~> > > Diana > There are countries smaller than the Getty, but I am sure my feather will be fine. Like some many things in Sacramento the Crocker does not the respect it deserves. Stephen "This ring, no other, is made by the elves, Who'd pawn their own mother to grab it themselves. Ruler of creeper, mortal, and scallop, This is a sleeper that packs quite a wallop. The Power almighty rests in this Lone Ring. The Power, alrightly, for doing your Own Thing. If broken or busted it cannot be remade If found, send to Sorhed (the postage is prepaid)." _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 18:11:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IMBnIO028526 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:11:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IM9U76009012 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:09:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IM9R7e001995; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:09:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IM9O7e001958 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:09:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 207-237-35-139.s139.tnt1.nywct.ny.dialup.rcn.com ([207.237.35.139] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #4) id 1A06xn-0002mB-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:09:24 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6A2D22.9060103@rcn.com> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:09:38 -0400 From: Catelli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com References: <200309181801.h8II16V7006822@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Paper patterns for c.1000-1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Now I wish someone would make patterns for early period (bliauts, t-tunics) > so we can refer newbies to something better than Simplicity. I don't need a > pattern for those, and most people wouldn't need one either if they had the > courage to try it, but some people just can't do it without a real printed > pattern. Try La Fleur de Lyse: http://www3.sympatico.ca/gousse-matte/fdl/Patterns.html#MAR Also available at Smoke & Fire, Syke Sutlering, Five Rivers, etc. They're pretty darned good, with some research note include. Ann in CT _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 18:35:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IMZfIO028726 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:35:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IMXL76014578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:33:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IMXJ7e022656; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:33:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IMXE7e022564 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:33:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.27]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:31:50 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:33:21 -0400 Message-ID: <005701c37e34$de038e40$3048ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Subject: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com A little bird told me you were discussing me, so I thought I'd drop in. List moderator: if I'm not allowed to talk business on this list, please let me know. I didn't see any prohibition against it in the list rules, but please let me know if this is not appropriate. Hi Audrey! Still have your "first garb" photo in the beginners' gallery. To answer your question, the projected cost of the patterns will be $12 for accessories patterns to $25 for "outfits". We won't know the final prices until we go to print, but that's my intended range. I'm trying to keep the price as low as possible while still printing on paper (not tissue) and retaining the services of a professional draftswoman so we can be assured that the patterns will fit the sizes the say they will. Kate, there will be two versions of the Hollar cap in the Caps pattern. And I believe Grannd.com sells to the UK. Whether my distributor will sell to retail sites in the UK is another matter, but I definitely will suggest it. Nicole, I hope you like what you see. I'd appreciate your input. Here in the US, we have no 17th century patterns except for costumes. The English Civil War community feels incredibly left out. It was because of this need that my distributor approached me in the first place. Anyone I missed? Kass McGann Reconstructing History "I'd rather go naked than wear a poly-cotton blend." _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 18:53:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IMrTIO029025 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:53:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IMod76018557 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:50:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IMoc7e007054; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:50:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt26.cluster1.charter.net (remt26.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IMoY7e006904 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:50:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt26.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 160640118 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:50:29 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6A3669.16F90CDA@charter.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:49:13 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] The 16th century leine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Ok, guys. It's time I asked a question or three. I am considering the leine of a mid 16th century highland noble. Most records of leinte from earlier times being elaborately decorated with embroidery about the lower hem, the neck and cuffs. How might a 16th century noble from the highlands decorate his shirt? All the period engravings and pictures I've seen show soldiers and hunters in plain leinte with huge sleeves. These were knee length but were pulled up under a belt and bloused over it. Now I have a feeling the well off would probably have ornamented the garment as a sign of wealth. The questions are how, where and what. Slainte, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 19:08:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8IN8sIO029093 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:08:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IN7976019946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:07:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IN78qv019002; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:07:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8IN75qv018957 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:07:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.27]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:05:41 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:07:12 -0400 Message-ID: <005801c37e39$98a176a0$3048ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6A3669.16F90CDA@charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8IN75qv018957 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Joe, The simple truth of the matter is that we don't have any pictorial evidence of what Highlanders wore in the 16th century, so there's the rub. That being said, there is a ton of textual evidence that says they were indistinguishable from the Irish of the same period. Great. Except that we don't have much information on the dress of the Irish either. We *do*, however, have some information on the dress of the Irish. It's just not that complete. The léine as worn by Irish kern (mercenary soldiers) was almost invariably saffron-coloured linen and to a large extent unadorned. There is one picture of a piper with a small amount of what could be embroidery on his sleeves (a few diagonal lines criss-crossing the front seams) and one textual reference to a many who had the seams of his léine embroidered in red and green silks. But there is no evidence that the elaborate embroidery described in the 6th-10th century tales was seen to any extent in the 16th century. The question that springs to my mind is would a nobleman have worn a léine at all? Remember, our only evidence of them in this period is on mercenary soldiers. The nobility in Ireland tended to follow English fashions, albeit with an Irish flair. I would suspect the Highland Scottish nobles did much the same. I hope this helps. Kass McGann Reconstructing History -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Joe Robertson Sent: 18 September 2003 5:49 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Ok, guys. It's time I asked a question or three. I am considering the leine of a mid 16th century highland noble. Most records of leinte from earlier times being elaborately decorated with embroidery about the lower hem, the neck and cuffs. How might a 16th century noble from the highlands decorate his shirt? All the period engravings and pictures I've seen show soldiers and hunters in plain leinte with huge sleeves. These were knee length but were pulled up under a belt and bloused over it. Now I have a feeling the well off would probably have ornamented the garment as a sign of wealth. The questions are how, where and what. Slainte, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 19:40:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8INewIO029591 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:40:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8INcI76022011 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:38:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8INcHqv008873; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:38:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8INcFqv008854 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLF001QBO8QWR@draco.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:39:12 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-reply-to: <3F6A3669.16F90CDA@charter.net> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918160845.02ef57c0@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Joe What we used to do was either decorate the leine like you described, or the ionar (jacket) the sleeves, or whatever strikes your fancy. Celtic knotwork styles are quite popular for embroidery. Also, some highland lairds will wear the prevelant "English court" styles if they are known to come to court. I think it is the "while in Rome, do as the Romans do" sorta thinking, but I have no idea how well supported that is historically. I did however an outfit for an Irish bard, which I may have mentioned to you before. The owner of the outfit was going to add in embroidery himself later, but I don't think he ever did. However, the Leine style is different than the soldiers/kerns you see. We based them from John Derricke's woodcuts, especially the dinner scene that can be found on Reconstructing History's site. http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/fenians/derrickdinner.jpg I found that originally from _Dress in Ireland_, for a better view and more images. I have a work in progress web site that will document the whole creation of that outfit. Right now the only thing I have up is the Ionar construction, not the leine, which is next. But considering it is a work in progress you can see what I did that was different than the usual Irish outfits. http://www.dreamtime-studios.com/costumes/irishbard/index.html Mainly the differences is that I put the yards and yards of material into the Leine skirt which goes to the knees, not the sleeves or the body. The whole leine was 10 yards of modern 60" wide material, with most of the material cut into 20"+/- strips and pleated into the leine body. The rest of the material went into the body and small sleeves. The guy I made this for wanted short sleeves, but later decided that the actual sleeves we discussed, which go just the the wrist, would have been better and more appropriate. And yes I do know that an Irish bard and a highland laird are two different types of people. But considering the Irish bard is of high social standing amongst the Irish, and most images of highland Lairds are usually covered in leather armor, or in a brat/cloak, or dressed with some English stylings, I thought it would help give you a different look that is historically based. And one other item you might want to look at is the image opposite Pg 16 in _Old Highland Dress and Tartan_ of the hunting Scotsmen (I believe you mentioned you had the full book, so it might be a different page #). It is from Holinshed's Chronicle 1577, and the back of the ionar/jacket of the left archer is clearly decorated, as are the ionar sleeves over the leine sleeves. Other archers seem to have stripes going in vertical or diagonal directions on the backs of their ionars. hth, Kimiko At 05:49 PM 9/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Ok, guys. > It's time I asked a question or three. I am considering the leine of >a mid 16th century highland noble. Most records of leinte from earlier >times being elaborately decorated with embroidery about the lower hem, >the neck and cuffs. How might a 16th century noble from the highlands >decorate his shirt? All the period engravings and pictures I've seen >show soldiers and hunters in plain leinte with huge sleeves. These were >knee length but were pulled up under a belt and bloused over it. Now I >have a feeling the well off would probably have ornamented the garment >as a sign of wealth. The questions are how, where and what. >Slainte, >Joe Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 19:52:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8INq2IO029641 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:52:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8INpR76022939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:51:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8INpPqv016810; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:51:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8INpMqv016792 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:51:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.200]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:49:59 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:51:29 -0400 Message-ID: <005901c37e3f$c8b7bd30$3048ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918160845.02ef57c0@64.87.54.245> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8INpMqv016792 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com What we used to do was either decorate the leine like you described, or the ionar (jacket) the sleeves, or whatever strikes your fancy. Celtic knotwork styles are quite popular for embroidery. Also, some highland lairds will wear the prevelant "English court" styles if they are known to come to court. I think it is the "while in Rome, do as the Romans do" sorta thinking, but I have no idea how well supported that is historically. >>>> Please please PLEASE do not put Celtic knotwork embroidery on the sleeves of your léine! Kimiko is correct in that the half-sleeves of the ionar were often decorated with embroidery. But it was not Celtic knotwork. Celtic knotwork as embroidery dates to a bunch of iron-on transfer books from the 1990s, not to the 16th century. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 19:55:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8INtcIO029651 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:55:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8INsq76023218 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:54:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8INspqv018596; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:54:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8INsmqv018568 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:54:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLF001ESP3BQO@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:57:51 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-reply-to: <3F6A3669.16F90CDA@charter.net> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918164618.02ef57c0@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 05:49 PM 9/18/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Now I >have a feeling the well off would probably have ornamented the garment >as a sign of wealth. The questions are how, where and what. A few other thoughts... When we recreated the highland family of the MacLeods, we showed signs of wealth in different ways than English style/thought. Cattle was the wealth of the highlanders, along with land. We had hides of cattle and sheep that we used in our encampment to reflect that. Highland lairds also counted the loyalty of their clans as part of their wealth. They have a different mindset than say English lords, as can be seen in their history. Family ties and power mattered more than the Ruling Monarch, as was seen in the sad story of Mary Queen of Scots. Goodness knows how often how often the various Kings had to put down the highland lairds personally. Also, we women would use fresh water pearls to decorate our outfits. We found documentation that the highlanders found lots and lots of fwpearls in their rivers and just horded it or used it for simple decorations. They didn't know how valuable they were until later centuries when some enterprising guy found the highlanders with jugs of the stuff, and started buying them cheap to resell at a much higher price. I think I found that in one of my beading books, if you want the docs for it. May not be specific for being completely historical based, and may depend on the clan and lands you are working with. hth Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 20:17:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J0HoIO029719 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:17:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0H876024603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:17:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0H6nj000671; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:17:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0H1nj000619 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:17:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLF0077VQ4864@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:20:01 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-reply-to: <005901c37e3f$c8b7bd30$3048ccd1@Kass> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918170139.02ef57c0@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918160845.02ef57c0@64.87.54.245> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8J0H1nj000619 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 07:51 PM 9/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Please please PLEASE do not put Celtic knotwork embroidery on the >sleeves of your léine! Kimiko is correct in that the half-sleeves of >the ionar were often decorated with embroidery. But it was not Celtic >knotwork. Celtic knotwork as embroidery dates to a bunch of iron-on >transfer books from the 1990s, not to the 16th century. > >Kass Agreed. I just mentioned what was often popular in faire to do. The drawings of the kerns and the scots archer both seem to show a floral and vine motifs on the ionars, but not on the leines. I just know leines were often Saffron colored among the rich. Oh, and that James wore a velvet jacket. That may be the way to go, use fine wools and velvets to set yourself apart from the kerns, along with a fine multi-colored cloak/plaide or trews. There is a lot of popular ideas of what is "decorative" that has come from modern ideas, and very little of it is on the surviving woodcuts or drawings. While I enjoyed researching the Celtic styles, the frustration is just how little of it remains for us to re-create from. And all this has me pondering.. does anyone know of a book or resource that discusses Brehon laws of the 16th c.? My Irish friend spoke often of them when we discussed the costume, and the laws that dictated specific numbers of colors, etc. I think I need to add this to my resources, as I don't have as much contact with that friend as I used to. It was nice to just pick his brain for that research, as his memory is much better than mine. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 20:24:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J0OjIO029770 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:24:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0O376024941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:24:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0O2nj004302; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:24:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from janus.directcon.net (janus.directcon.net [206.170.184.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0Nwnj004272 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:23:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dnyeaqvf (r14b20.directcon.net [209.79.208.20]) by janus.directcon.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h8J0SGv25582; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:28:17 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030918172232.00cad8b0@pop.directcon.net> X-Sender: margospatterns@pop.directcon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:22:32 -0700 To: Historical Costume , From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns In-Reply-To: <005701c37e34$de038e40$3048ccd1@Kass> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Congratulations, Kass! It seems like jsut yesterday we were emailing back and forth, trying to figure out where to get patterns printed. I'm here to tell you, running an independent pattern company comes second only to motherhood for hard work, but unlike motherhood, the rewards can be material as well as spiritual. Best of luck to you! Margo "One Tough Costumer" www.margospatterns.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 20:25:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J0PGIO029779 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:25:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0OK76025010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:24:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0OKnj004545; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:24:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from janus.directcon.net (janus.directcon.net [206.170.184.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0Nxnj004285 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:24:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dnyeaqvf (r14b20.directcon.net [209.79.208.20]) by janus.directcon.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h8J0SGv25582; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:28:17 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030918172232.00cad8b0@pop.directcon.net> X-Sender: margospatterns@pop.directcon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:22:32 -0700 To: Historical Costume , From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns In-Reply-To: <005701c37e34$de038e40$3048ccd1@Kass> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Congratulations, Kass! It seems like jsut yesterday we were emailing back and forth, trying to figure out where to get patterns printed. I'm here to tell you, running an independent pattern company comes second only to motherhood for hard work, but unlike motherhood, the rewards can be material as well as spiritual. Best of luck to you! Margo "One Tough Costumer" www.margospatterns.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 20:51:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J0p0IO029945 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:51:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0o076026388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:50:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0nvnj016779; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:49:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0nsnj016750 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:49:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.200]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:48:30 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:50:01 -0400 Message-ID: <005e01c37e47$f5ee2a70$3048ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918170139.02ef57c0@64.87.54.245> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8J0nsnj016750 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Agreed. I just mentioned what was often popular in faire to do. The drawings of the kerns and the scots archer both seem to show a floral and vine motifs on the ionars, but not on the leines. I just know leines were often Saffron colored among the rich. >>>> Actually, *all* paintings of léinte show saffron colouring. And every textual reference to them mentions this saffron colour. It was the English who thought it implied wealth since they only knew this bright yellow as a very expensive spice from Spain. But it may not have been actual saffron that was used to dye the léinte. Read this: http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffrondye.html However, there is some argument that saffron (or at least a relative of the saffron plant) may have grown wild in Ireland and therefore saffron would have been plentiful. Read this: http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffron.html The association of saffron colour with wealth is very likely a mistake made by English writers. >>>> Oh, and that James wore a velvet jacket. That may be the way to go, use fine wools and velvets to set yourself apart from the kerns, along with a fine multi-colored cloak/plaide or trews. >>>> I would also discourage this kind of stereotyping. The association of the Highland Scots with plaid/tartan is not something that happened until centuries later. If Joe wants to portray a Highland noble, his best bet is to wear contemporary English clothing. Not something that was worn by Irish mercenaries. >>>> And all this has me pondering.. does anyone know of a book or resource that discusses Brehon laws of the 16th c.? My Irish friend spoke often of them when we discussed the costume, and the laws that dictated specific numbers of colors, etc. I think I need to add this to my resources, as I don't have as much contact with that friend as I used to. It was nice to just pick his brain for that research, as his memory is much better than mine. >>>> I'm afraid there were no Brehon Laws in the 16th century, Kimiko. The laws that dictated how many colours a person of a certain class may wear is ancient and is not known to have been adhered to in the Common Era, and certainly not since the Norman Conquest in the 12th century. It would be nice if we could use all the widespread knowledge on Irish dress together to form one consistent idea of what they wore. But you simply can't apply pre-historical laws and sixth century decorative techniques to 16th century garments and expect to come up with a viable representation of mid-16th century clothing. Kass McGann Reconstructing History _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 20:51:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J0pdIO029954 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:51:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0p976026474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:51:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0p8nj017468; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:51:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J0oOnj017095 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:50:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.200]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:49:01 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:50:32 -0400 Message-ID: <005f01c37e48$085c7d10$3048ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20030918172232.00cad8b0@pop.directcon.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Congratulations, Kass! It seems like jsut yesterday we were emailing back and forth, trying to figure out where to get patterns printed. I'm here to tell you, running an independent pattern company comes second only to motherhood for hard work, but unlike motherhood, the rewards can be material as well as spiritual. Best of luck to you! >>>> Thanks Margo! I appreciate your support. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 21:52:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J1qVIO030534 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:52:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J1n176029138 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:49:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J1mvQk014081; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:48:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J1msQk014062 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:48:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLF002N7UDEEM@draco.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:51:53 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-reply-to: <005e01c37e47$f5ee2a70$3048ccd1@Kass> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918182555.02efaae0@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918170139.02ef57c0@64.87.54.245> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8J1msQk014062 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 08:50 PM 9/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >>>> >Actually, *all* paintings of léinte show saffron colouring. And every >textual reference to them mentions this saffron colour. It was the >English who thought it implied wealth since they only knew this bright >yellow as a very expensive spice from Spain. But it may not have been >actual saffron that was used to dye the léinte. Read this: >http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffrondye.html I have black and white images to go on, so I don't know what colors they are colored. I have seen a few of them with colors, but I don't have them on hand. And I like what you have done in your experiments with the dyes. Similar to a friend who decided to find a commonly available pink and dyed with berries to prove her point. And another who got a nice purple from Scottish lichens. >However, there is some argument that saffron (or at least a relative of >the saffron plant) may have grown wild in Ireland and therefore saffron >would have been plentiful. Read this: >http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/saffron.html > >The association of saffron colour with wealth is very likely a mistake >made by English writers. Ah, I agree with the Irish having their own "saffron" as a color, as I found in my own research on the color. As to saffron being associated with the rich, that comment comes from _Old Highland Dress and Tartans_, where the author lists various authors of the time whose commentary on the saffron color is listed. Gordon of Straloch in 1594 describes that "the great" sometimes dyed with saffron. I probably thought that "the great" could be construed with wealth, or someone of high standing or power. Bishop Lesley in 1578 notes that the linen shirts are "dyed with saffron among the rich, smeared with grease among the poor." Saffron colored is highly noted, as is "multi-colored", which I do not mean to equal our modern day tartans/plaids. > >>>> >Oh, and that James wore a velvet >jacket. That may be the way to go, use fine wools and velvets to set >yourself apart from the kerns, along with a fine multi-colored >cloak/plaide >or trews. > >>>> >I would also discourage this kind of stereotyping. The association of >the Highland Scots with plaid/tartan is not something that happened >until centuries later. If Joe wants to portray a Highland noble, his >best bet is to wear contemporary English clothing. Not something that >was worn by Irish mercenaries. > >>>> I wrote plaide for a reason. I did not mean tartans or plaids, as we know them. a plaide is another term for a cloak or blanket, as there is a song of a man asking a girl to sit under his plaide (pla-de). I am sorry, I should have clarified that a bit better. The different authors of the time write often of multi-colored garments, including a "mantle or plaid (couverture)", as noted under Jean de Beaugue 1548-9. What those garments actually were dyed in multi-color is unknown. Coulda been tie-dyed for all we know (j/k) >I'm afraid there were no Brehon Laws in the 16th century, Kimiko. The >laws that dictated how many colours a person of a certain class may wear >is ancient and is not known to have been adhered to in the Common Era, >and certainly not since the Norman Conquest in the 12th century. Ok, that's fine. Answers why I couldn't find it for that time period. >It would be nice if we could use all the widespread knowledge on Irish >dress together to form one consistent idea of what they wore. But you >simply can't apply pre-historical laws and sixth century decorative >techniques to 16th century garments and expect to come up with a viable >representation of mid-16th century clothing. Ah, I agree, but so many people do. Not saying it is right, just that until something better and more informative comes along for re-enactors, we tend to use what is available to us. >Kass McGann >Reconstructing History Thanks Kass for clarifying so many things. I often used your site years ago when I did Scottish re-enactment, and I am seeing that you, along with me, and many others on this list, have taken to improving on our knowledge of what re-enactment clothing should be. Like Maya Angelou often says, "You do the best you can with what you know, and when you know better, you do better." or something like that. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 22:03:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J23YIO030593 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:03:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J1xo76029601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:59:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J1xnl9019101; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:59:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J1xkl9019084 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:59:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLF002VHUVJHM@draco.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:02:50 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns In-reply-to: <005701c37e34$de038e40$3048ccd1@Kass> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918185548.02edfbd8@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Ok, that caught my eye. I hadn't been reading for a few days, as I am getting ready for a trip. Thank you Kass for making Irish garment patterns. I had made a Shinrone gown years ago as an experiment, and some people had asked me if there was a pattern for it. Now I can send them to you. I am wondering, will you be actually having all 20+ panels in the skirt? That is the one area that really bogged me down was all the panels in that skirt. And how do you deal with the opening in the front? And how it doesn't support anyone in the front, at least not on its own? I know it doesn't actually close in the front, so I wore a corset underneath, as I am a larger woman. Actually, the dress was made when I was thinner, but I am still full chested. I can't wait to see the Irish patterns. It will be nice to see more people at faire dressed in historically-based clothing. Thanks again! Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 22:21:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J2L8IO030626 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:21:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J2I376000584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:18:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J2I1l9027720; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:18:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J2Hwl9027697 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:17:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.200]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:16:34 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:18:05 -0400 Message-ID: <006601c37e54$434342e0$3048ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918182555.02efaae0@64.87.54.245> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8J2Hwl9027697 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com And I like what you have done in your experiments with the dyes. Similar to a friend who decided to find a commonly available pink and dyed with berries to prove her point. And another who got a nice purple from Scottish lichens. >>>> It is AMAZING what colours lichens make. Such an unassuming little fungus... >>>> Ah, I agree with the Irish having their own "saffron" as a color, as I found in my own research on the color. As to saffron being associated with the rich, that comment comes from _Old Highland Dress and Tartans_, where the author lists various authors of the time whose commentary on the saffron color is listed. Gordon of Straloch in 1594 describes that "the great" sometimes dyed with saffron. I probably thought that "the great" could be construed with wealth, or someone of high standing or power. Bishop Lesley in 1578 notes that the linen shirts are "dyed with saffron among the rich, smeared with grease among the poor." Saffron colored is highly noted, as is "multi-colored", which I do not mean to equal our modern day tartans/plaids. >>>> Yes, and my point is that these are all English writers. And oftentimes it is rather obvious that they are reiterating what each other said and not adding anything new. I am of the distinct opinion that the idea that saffron shirts = wealth came from an English misperception, not Irish reality. My opinion is based on the fact that the men depicted wearing léinte croich (saffron shirts) are not wealthy men, but mercenary foot soldiers. The same English authors who describe the shirt as being expensive describe these kern as being lower class. So this leads me to believe that one or both of their assumptions are incorrect. Henry the VIII outlawed the use of saffron as a dye in Ireland by Act of Parliament in 1537. We presume this is because he thought the Irish were dressing above their station. The fact that we have references well into the 17th century describing "saffron-dyed shirts" tells me one of two things: (A) that the law didn't work or (B) that they weren't dyeing anything with saffron in the first place. There's evidence to support both theories. >>>> I wrote plaide for a reason. I did not mean tartans or plaids, as we know them. a plaide is another term for a cloak or blanket, as there is a song of a man asking a girl to sit under his plaide (pla-de). I am sorry, I should have clarified that a bit better. The different authors of the time write often of multi-colored garments, including a "mantle or plaid (couverture)", as noted under Jean de Beaugue 1548-9. What those garments actually were dyed in multi-color is unknown. Coulda been tie-dyed for all we know (j/k) >>>> True! ;) Sorry, I just saw "plaid" and thought, "Not another Catholic School girl's uniform-wearing Highlander!" "Lookie me, lads! I'm a Highlander! Can't you tell by my Royal Stuart undies?!" Can you imagine! >>>> Ok, that's fine. Answers why I couldn't find it for that time period. >>>> Yup. Glad to have cleared that up for you. >>>> Ah, I agree, but so many people do. Not saying it is right, just that until something better and more informative comes along for re-enactors, we tend to use what is available to us. >>>> This is one of the reasons I don't do 15th century Irish. The 15th century is really my favourite period in history, and I would have loved to have given my impression an Irish twist. But we don't know enough about 15th century clothing in Ireland to do that. So I don't do it. I do the period about which we know the most -- late 16th century. The availability of information dictates what impression I do. But when someone talks about celtic knotwork embroidery or something 10th century for use with a 16th century outfit, I go kinda narky. I feel like I have to throw myself in front of this speeding train and save the people on board before they plummet into mis-matched period clothing hell!!! Mwah ha ha! ;) I'm just a glutton for out-of-control speeding trains... >>>> Thanks Kass for clarifying so many things. I often used your site years ago when I did Scottish re-enactment, and I am seeing that you, along with me, and many others on this list, have taken to improving on our knowledge of what re-enactment clothing should be. Like Maya Angelou often says, "You do the best you can with what you know, and when you know better, you do better." or something like that. >>>> That's for sure. This is the Historic Costume list after all. Reenactment clothing should never be based on fantasy or out-of-date information. I was having a discussion on another list yesterday where we agreed that we in Living History know we will never get it perfectly correct. But the reason we are in this hobby is to keep striving, to keep getting closer to that perfection even though we know it's impossible to attain it. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 22:41:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J2fTIO030678 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:41:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J2cN76001380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:38:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J2cMl9007007; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:38:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J2cIl9006985 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:38:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.200]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:36:55 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:38:26 -0400 Message-ID: <006901c37e57$1af87190$3048ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918185548.02edfbd8@64.87.54.245> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thank you Kass for making Irish garment patterns. I had made a Shinrone gown years ago as an experiment, and some people had asked me if there was a pattern for it. Now I can send them to you. >>>> Sure thing, Kimiko. That's what I'm here for. >>>> I am wondering, will you be actually having all 20+ panels in the skirt? That is the one area that really bogged me down was all the panels in that skirt. >>>> The pattern will contain a reenactor's version with all the panels and a costumer's version with fewer, larger panels. How's that? >>>> And how do you deal with the opening in the front? And how it doesn't support anyone in the front, at least not on its own? I know it doesn't actually close in the front, so I wore a corset underneath, as I am a larger woman. Actually, the dress was made when I was thinner, but I am still full chested. >>>> Well, m'dear, you're just going to have to wait and see the answer to that one. ;) >>>> I can't wait to see the Irish patterns. It will be nice to see more people at faire dressed in historically-based clothing. Thanks again! >>>> I look forward to it too. =) Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 23:27:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J3RmIO030969 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:27:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J3Ob76003978 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:24:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J3OZFN028201; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:24:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt19.cluster1.charter.net (remt19.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J3OUFN028141 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:24:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt19.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 161776427 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:24:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6A7682.85DE8E7E@charter.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:22:42 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918160845.02ef57c0@64.87.54.245> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wow! What a response. I think to lock down a wardrobe correctly, then perhaps a brief history of my people is in order. My ancestors really were nobles and wealthy barons of the Clan Donnachaidh. They were a warlike highland clan with considerable lands in the Perthshire region, and they constantly opposed the English crown through the centuries. See, I do have a little vested interest in this period/persona. :o) It's my own history. The highlanders, according to the texts I've read, dressed like their Irish brethren and were slow to adopt English fashion. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the well to do kept English fashion handy for trips to court, that is if they visited court at all. The lowlanders were probably more attuned to English dress, due to their proximity to the border and English influence, but that influence thinned as one entered the highlands. My people shunned the court system in favor of the feudal tribalism of the clans. Would they be so likely to wear English fashion then? Also, the highlanders were considered by the English as backwards and primitive country hicks, 50 years behind "modern" times. Although contemporary fashion eventually found its way there, it was probably dated. The ability the wealthy had to travel around to other lands might have stayed this a bit. As to nobles wearing a leine, of course they did. Leine simply means "shirt" in gaelic. The wealthy could generally afford more fabric, and it did seem in vogue to have monster shirts in the mid 1500's. Earlier texts and drawings show leinte more like the Rogart shirt, which was less voluminous. The ancient celts' leinte were generally mid thigh length and worn with trews, but that is WAY out of period. I'm guessing at leinte embroidery during this time period. Everything I've seen has shown it plain, but none were of nobility. Most seem to be that buttery saffron colour mentioned. I've seen the ionar on the kern heavily ornamented, so it would read that the wealthy might do the same. King James' highland clothes included a long shirt (sewn together with red or green silk thread), a "variegated" velvet ionar with a green taffeta lining, and trews. There were also ribbons on there somewhere as ornamentation. It's hot here in Texas, so I'm not going to wear woolen trews. I'm pushing it with the brat and ionar. The point is, I'm starting from scratch and need your help in pulling it together. I am NOT a costumer, nor is the lass. It's going to get interesting when she comes on here to start her wardrobe. Slainte, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 23:40:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J3efIO031017 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:40:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J3bb76004511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:37:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J3bZFN003977; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:37:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J3bWFN003940 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:37:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLF001PLZEIVC@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:40:29 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-reply-to: <006601c37e54$434342e0$3048ccd1@Kass> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918200806.02f08f50@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918182555.02efaae0@64.87.54.245> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8J3bWFN003940 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Kass, > >>>> >Yes, and my point is that these are all English writers. And oftentimes >it is rather obvious that they are reiterating what each other said and >not adding anything new. I am of the distinct opinion that the idea >that saffron shirts = wealth came from an English misperception, not >Irish reality. My opinion is based on the fact that the men depicted >wearing léinte croich (saffron shirts) are not wealthy men, but >mercenary foot soldiers. The same English authors who describe the >shirt as being expensive describe these kern as being lower class. So >this leads me to believe that one or both of their assumptions are >incorrect. My Irish friend had a perspective on those kerns described as being "poor". He noted that the same images have them carrying weapons about. Well weapons aren't cheap. He also compared them to the German mercenaries, who often wore very fine clothes, that they got from the villages they pillaged, or the silk tents that apparently started the whole cut and slash craze. I don't do German, I just get my info from another friend, who is a major history costume type like us, she does German. Anyway, why are they considered "poor"? That was the point he was trying to make to me. They have weapons, which cost money. They are shown with decorations on their ionars/jackets, which if you were poor you wouldn't have time to decorate your clothing, or have the money for the threads, would you? And they were often noted as being "naked", then described as wearing their leines, but that is considered "naked" to these English authors who are suited to the gills. I personally agree with the direction my friend was taking. That what the English consider poor, and what the Irish consider as poor, are two different perspectives, and we may never know what the real Irish poor wore. >Henry the VIII outlawed the use of saffron as a dye in Ireland by Act of >Parliament in 1537. We presume this is because he thought the Irish >were dressing above their station. The fact that we have references >well into the 17th century describing "saffron-dyed shirts" tells me one >of two things: (A) that the law didn't work or (B) that they weren't >dyeing anything with saffron in the first place. There's evidence to >support both theories. I had thought it was because Henry was trying to suppress anything Irish, and saffron colored clothing, especially the leine and other items, were distinctly an Irish mode of dress. I also thought he was trying to force the Irish to become more English in dress and thought, which was shown in the history of the time. It was interesting that he had to outlaw it twice, I think it was, and it seems that it wasn't working outside the Pale. I will also say this is an opinion formed years ago from conversations with my Irish playing friends and their knowledge of history and costume, one of which is a Professor of Irish history, so I am under the presumption they knew what they spoke of in history. And _Dress in Ireland_ notes that dyes imported during the 16th c. include saffron, orchell, madder and woad. I don't see where the author gets that specific info from, although she does have pretty extensive notes in the back in general. I wanted to ask you. Are you presuming saffron was expensive back then, because it is so expensive now? I know prices of anything can fluctuate depending on supply and demand. Perhaps the supply was larger then because of all the dyeing, than now, and the prices were more reasonable at that time. Just curious. > >>>> >True! ;) Sorry, I just saw "plaid" and thought, "Not another Catholic >School girl's uniform-wearing Highlander!" "Lookie me, lads! I'm a >Highlander! Can't you tell by my Royal Stuart undies?!" Can you >imagine! > >>>> Oh, I know, not to mention all the regimental jokes, or people asking if we were the Black Watch. We knew years ago when we wore tartans and kilts that it wasn't historically accurate. However we wanted to distinguish ourselves from the Irish in the mind of the public, and that is what the public understands. Nowadays, the major highland regiment/guild I know of dress just like the kerns in the images, and they look shabby and poor, but with nice shiny weapons. And people often think they are Irish, even other re-enactors. > >>>> >This is one of the reasons I don't do 15th century Irish. The 15th >century is really my favourite period in history, and I would have loved >to have given my impression an Irish twist. But we don't know enough >about 15th century clothing in Ireland to do that. So I don't do it. I >do the period about which we know the most -- late 16th century. The >availability of information dictates what impression I do. That I can understand. There is so little as it is on Irish in general, and less so specifically on Scots, which is what my focus was. >But when someone talks about celtic knotwork embroidery or something >10th century for use with a 16th century outfit, I go kinda narky. I >feel like I have to throw myself in front of this speeding train and >save the people on board before they plummet into mis-matched period >clothing hell!!! Mwah ha ha! ;) I'm just a glutton for out-of-control >speeding trains... Ok, I understand. My background is similar, and I have been dubbed a costume Nazi in my lifetime, although I am nowhere near as bad as I could be. I will share info on what I have seen others do, as I don't consider myself someone who knows everything. I know that as soon as I think that, someone else will show me just where I messed up, and that's cool because then I learn. >That's for sure. This is the Historic Costume list after all. >Reenactment clothing should never be based on fantasy or out-of-date >information. I was having a discussion on another list yesterday where >we agreed that we in Living History know we will never get it perfectly >correct. But the reason we are in this hobby is to keep striving, to >keep getting closer to that perfection even though we know it's >impossible to attain it. > >Kass I can fully agree. It is amazing how much better Living History people are dressing, for all the research that people have done over the years. Take the Shinrone gown for example. I kept hearing stories of how it was supposed to look like, and people made dresses based on various ideas, but didn't have any pic or full description of it. I went on a hunt, found a book in a college library 200 miles away, and photocopied the two pages in the book. I made mine based on a pic of just the front of the gown, and the description. I didn't know what the back looked like. Now, online, there is much more info on what the gown looked like, front and back, and people have made replicas on them and shared all that info. And I wanted to say it's been wonderful finding other people like you, on this list, that I can enjoy chatting the details of such a small thing as saffron and Irish clothing, and have it be an enjoyable conversation. I just hope I haven't bored the rest of you all. Thanks! Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 18 23:59:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J3xJIO031197 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:59:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J3uH76005241 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:56:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J3uFYk012018; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:56:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J3uBYk011994 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:56:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.200]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:54:47 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:56:19 -0400 Message-ID: <007c01c37e61$fc389540$3048ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6A7682.85DE8E7E@charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8J3uBYk011994 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Joe, >>>> It's my own history. >>>> So it's important for you to do things correctly. I see... >>>> The highlanders, according to the texts I've read, dressed like their Irish brethren and were slow to adopt English fashion. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that the well to do kept English fashion handy for trips to court, that is if they visited court at all. The lowlanders were probably more attuned to English dress, due to their proximity to the border and English influence, but that influence thinned as one entered the highlands. My people shunned the court system in favor of the feudal tribalism of the clans. Would they be so likely to wear English fashion then? >>>> Let me ask you this? What did the Scottish Kings wear? It's my impression that they wore English court fashions. If you want to wear the clothing of the Scottish nobility of this period, look at your King and copy him. >>>> Also, the highlanders were considered by the English as backwards and primitive country hicks, 50 years behind "modern" times. Although contemporary fashion eventually found its way there, it was probably dated. The ability the wealthy had to travel around to other lands might have stayed this a bit. >>>> So were the Irish. Matter of fact, the 16thc English often complained that the Irishwomen wouldn't stop wrapping their heads in linen and wear nice caps like the English did. The English thought the Irish were copying a Turkish style turban or something. But they were actually still wearing the linen wraps popular in 15th century England. The English just didn't recognize them 100 years out of date. If you go back far enough in history, you see that the Irish and Highland Scots weren't really wearing anything new (well, at least not until that kilt think in the 18th century...). They were just wearing clothing that was 50-100 years behind the times and it looked foreign to their contemporaries. Kinda like the Amish look odd to us. >>>> As to nobles wearing a leine, of course they did. Leine simply means "shirt" in gaelic. >>>> I meant did they wear the garment we call "the léine"? Of course they wore shirts. Everyone wore shirts. The question is did they wear big yellow shirts with huge sleeves and bloused down to their knees? Otherwise, I wouldn't call it a léine. >>>> The wealthy could generally afford more fabric, and it did seem in vogue to have monster shirts in the mid 1500's. Earlier texts and drawings show leinte more like the Rogart shirt, which was less voluminous. The ancient celts' leinte were generally mid thigh length and worn with trews, but that is WAY out of period. >>>> The Ancient Celts didn't wear léinte... ;) >>>> I'm guessing at leinte embroidery during this time period. Everything I've seen has shown it plain, but none were of nobility. >>>> Doesn't it follow, then, that the nobility didn't wear these voluminous shirts we call léinte? I'm inclined to think that they did not. I caution you about taking lack of evidence that something didn't exist as proof that it did. Very shakey ground, Joe... >>>> Most seem to be that buttery saffron colour mentioned. I've seen the ionar on the kern heavily ornamented, so it would read that the wealthy might do the same. >>>> If the wealthy wore léinte and ionar at all. In all my research, the léine and ionar seem to be the clothing of professional soldiers, not nobility. The ionar were indeed heavily decorated. But they appear to be tooled leather, not embroidered cloth. Think about it. >>>> King James' highland clothes included a long shirt (sewn together with red or green silk thread), a "variegated" velvet ionar with a green taffeta lining, and trews. There were also ribbons on there somewhere as ornamentation. >>>> You see, I think you should replicate this and not try embroidering your léine. Plus, I'm inclined to think that the "ionar" is more like a 16th century doublet or jerkin. The records say "short jacket". Are we sure this is an ionar? I'm not. And his long shirt was only made of only 7-1/2 ells of fabric. That's about over two and a half yards in modern terms. You would think that if the King wanted a huge léine, he would have had one. But this isn't enough fabric for the léine I've come to know and love... ;) >>>> It's hot here in Texas, so I'm not going to wear woolen trews. >>>> Ever heard of "tropical weight wool"? It's worth a try... >>>> I'm pushing it with the brat and ionar. The point is, I'm starting from scratch and need your help in pulling it together. I am NOT a costumer, nor is the lass. >>>> Nor am I... >>>> It's going to get interesting when she comes on here to start her wardrobe. >>>> We might have patterns for her by then. =) Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 00:25:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J4PBIO031290 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:25:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J4M876006647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:22:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J4M6Yk023410; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:22:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt19.cluster1.charter.net (remt19.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J4M4Yk023358 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:22:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt19.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 161870821 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:21:31 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6A83F6.C0856355@charter.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:20:06 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918182555.02efaae0@64.87.54.245> <5.2.1.1.0.20030918200806.02f08f50@64.87.54.245> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com The Galloglach I feel that it's important to mention the Galloglach at this point. They were well trained, well equipped, and highly feared. Kern were the foot soldiery of the Galloglach ranks, and were generally of lower social standing than the horsemen. The mounted Galloglach warriors were written of as all being of good name from noble households. They were also described as having one or more horses and two attendants to carry their provisions and armament. Comprised mainly of Scottish clansmen of the western highlands, they were feared mercenaries in the employ of the Irish warlords. Robert the Bruce himself landed in Ireland with a huge contingent of Galloglach troops after defeating the English in medieval times. To say that they were armed to the teeth was an understatement. Most imagery I have seen of them includes mail shirts, helmets, swords, dirks and axes...all of which cost some bucks. A witness stated that this was worn over the padded saffron shirt (probably a gameson), which was "a badge of chieftains". I guess their fees as mercenaries were quite high, affording them the ability to arm, dress and train in a manner that made them the bad boys to have on your side. Every photo or picture I've seen shows many of the kern and Galloglach wearing saffron leinte. Many also wear ionars and most have a brat. Aye, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 01:01:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J517IO031434 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:01:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J4vq76008192 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:57:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J4voWZ008999; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:57:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J4vlWZ008978 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:57:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-64-175-33-27.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [64.175.33.27]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8J4vjOw001821 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030918215625.00e55a90@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:57:39 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-Reply-To: <3F6A83F6.C0856355@charter.net> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918182555.02efaae0@64.87.54.245> <5.2.1.1.0.20030918200806.02f08f50@64.87.54.245> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >The Galloglach > I feel that it's important to mention the Galloglach at this point. >They were well trained, well equipped, and highly feared. Kern were the >foot soldiery of the Galloglach ranks, and were generally of lower >social standing than the horsemen. The mounted Galloglach warriors were >written of as all being of good name from noble households. They were >also described as having one or more horses and two attendants to carry >their provisions and armament. > Comprised mainly of Scottish clansmen of the western highlands, they >were feared mercenaries in the employ of the Irish warlords. Robert the >Bruce himself landed in Ireland with a huge contingent of Galloglach >troops after defeating the English in medieval times. To say that they >were armed to the teeth was an understatement. Most imagery I have seen >of them includes mail shirts, helmets, swords, dirks and axes...all of >which cost some bucks. A witness stated that this was worn over the >padded saffron shirt (probably a gameson), which was "a badge of >chieftains". I guess their fees as mercenaries were quite high, >affording them the ability to arm, dress and train in a manner that made >them the bad boys to have on your side. > Every photo or picture I've seen shows many of the kern and >Galloglach wearing saffron leinte. Many also wear ionars and most have a >brat. >Aye, >Joe Are the words "Galloglach" and "Gallowglass" related? Both, I seem to recall, are names for mercenaries. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 01:05:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J55ZIO031462 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:05:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J51B76008303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:01:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J51AWZ010368; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:01:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J517WZ010345 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:01:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip73.100-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.100.73]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8796A652 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:01:05 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:59:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Message-ID: <3F6A2AC5.21822.2A200D58@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <005801c37e39$98a176a0$3048ccd1@Kass> References: <3F6A3669.16F90CDA@charter.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-description: Mail message body Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from Quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8J517WZ010345 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > The question that springs to my mind is would a nobleman have worn a > léine at all? Remember, our only evidence of them in this period is > on mercenary soldiers. The nobility in Ireland tended to follow > English fashions, albeit with an Irish flair. I would suspect the > Highland Scottish nobles did much the same. The Scottish nobles in the 16th century probably had more French than English influence. They had very close ties at that time (including a Queen who came from France followed by a Queen in her own right who was educated in France.) Woodcuts from the time (such as one I have in my slide collection) show Scottish nobles wearing the same styles seen in both England (which had quite a bit of French influence) and France. This held true in the Highlands even up to and including the Highland Clearances. There is one family painting showing the children of a Highland laird playing and they are wearing kilts (which were probably not worn in the 16th C, and definitely not the "little kilt") and European clothing (mixed.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 01:10:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J5AnIO031484 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:10:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J53h76008416 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:03:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J53gWZ011323; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:03:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt22.cluster1.charter.net (remt22.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J53eWZ011267 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:03:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt22.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 164923073 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:03:32 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6A8DCA.9CF3FB40@charter.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:02:03 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <007c01c37e61$fc389540$3048ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Ok, now. Most certainly the ancient celts didn't wear what we commonly refer to as the leine. I tend to think in modern gaelic terms rather than what most think of as the garment you described, which I also love. I've seen description of an 11th century chieftain's clothing that lists his "brilliant white silk shirt" being embroidered about the neck, which enhanced his appearance. I think they even called the thing a kilt instead of a shirt, for crying out loud. This is also the passage that mentions the "five folded cloak". I had little intention of having my 16th century highland shirt embroidered unless history dicated so. That's why I'm here. To learn. I believe you may be right about King James' jacket. There's no evidence that it was an ionar, so it very well may have been some sort of jerkin or a doublet. This wardrobe is going to get expensive quickly, I see. :o) Please understand that I'm a doctor of psychology, not a historian, and I tend to view things with a sense of social dynamics. This can have little to do with what actually occurred in times past. So little is known about the clothing from this time that it invites much interpretation and educated "guesswork" from those who travel down its path. I'm drawing from what I've read, what I've been told, and what I've learned from my education. You are very right about me. I like to do things correctly the first time, even if that means going to the faire in a period green gumby suit with a polka dot plaid brooched at my right shoulder. ....and I routinely wear kilt to my clan events. I wouldn't trade for it. :o) Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 01:11:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J5BWIO031491 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:11:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J52J76008354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:02:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J52IWZ010779; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:02:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt30.cluster1.charter.net (remt30.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.40]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J52GWZ010742 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:02:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt30.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 32195226 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:02:09 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6A8D75.91347E91@charter.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:00:37 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918182555.02efaae0@64.87.54.245> <4.3.1.2.20030918215625.00e55a90@mail.frys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Carolyn, They are indeed the same. Galloglass is the anglicized form of the word. Think gaelic. Aye, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 01:20:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J5K0IO031508 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:20:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J5Gj76008831 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:16:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J5GhWZ016852; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:16:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J5GeWZ016822 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:16:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip73.100-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.100.73]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5EF6ACCF for ; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:16:39 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:15:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Message-ID: <3F6A2E6B.15420.2A2E5A5B@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <006601c37e54$434342e0$3048ccd1@Kass> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918182555.02efaae0@64.87.54.245> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Henry the VIII outlawed the use of saffron as a dye in Ireland by Act > of Parliament in 1537. We presume this is because he thought the > Irish were dressing above their station. The fact that we have > references well into the 17th century describing "saffron-dyed shirts" > tells me one of two things: (A) that the law didn't work or (B) that > they weren't dyeing anything with saffron in the first place. There's > evidence to support both theories. It probably was a little of both. Heaven only knows that there are enough plants in the British Isles that make all sorts of yellows. But when you talk about what the wealthy were doing, they probably *were* dyeing with saffron. The cost to dye a regular shirt with real saffron would have been prohibitive! Even if they had tons of it growing in their country, what makes it expensive is the labor intensiveness of the dye. Each flower has to have the yellow stamen/pistol snipped off (as this is the dye bearing part of the plant) and then it takes pounds of these little things to make the dye itself. This would probably have been used instead of embroidering it to show off wealth. It always seems to me that modern people want to put embroidery on things to denote wealth more than they would have done in the middle ages and renaissance. However, even the non-wealthy could have embroidery, since it was a cottage craft. What they couldn't afford was fine fabrics dyed with expensive dyestuffs. So, it is much more likely that to denote wealth they would have used finer fabrics than the hoi poloi as well as the more expensive dyes. As to Henry's prohibition of saffron, it wasn't just Ireland where it was prohibited. Some have said that it was to make sure that the sheets were white so that he could tell if they were actually clean or not. ;) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 03:05:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J75eIO026525 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:05:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J72976012217 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:02:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J729mG028596; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:02:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J71MmG028331 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:01:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLG002KB8U803@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:58:01 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-reply-to: <3F6A83F6.C0856355@charter.net> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918224037.02f08f50@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918182555.02efaae0@64.87.54.245> <5.2.1.1.0.20030918200806.02f08f50@64.87.54.245> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Joe, I think we have presented much of the info we know about the highlanders/islanders and Irish. I know you have good books similar to what I have, if not more on certain subjects. I think the answer you are looking for is in front of you, with what people so far have presented. It is now up to you to decide what direction YOU want to go from here. How historical do you want to be with what little we have? You speak of the Galloglach, but are those highland chiefs? You want to go with a highland chiefs, but I have yet to find specific info on what specifically they wore, other than the presumption they went with their kissing cousins the Irish, more than lowland or even courtly dress, French or English inspired. And the knowledge of women's clothing is even less. I agree also that the h/i chiefs would not dress in the English/French court fashion, unless they were visiting court, or had court visiting them. There is a MacLeod story about the Clan Chief entertaining King James (IV I think), and the dinner "table", and "candlesticks" were much different than what the King was used to (a land plateau/butte and men in armor holding flaming torches). The perspective of wealth is different among the Scots and Irish, than the "more civilized" English. So, presuming they dressed more like the Irish lords, I would suggest going with a saffron colored linen leine, with your choice of length and style. I presented one different style to you, and there are other full bodied versions like in Kass's patterns. Embroidery during this time is not seen on a leine, at least on the ones we have images of. But then such details as necklines are sometimes missing from the woodcuts as well, so it may or may not mean anything. Decorations on the ionar (as I call such jackets) may indeed be tooling of the leather, or something else, including possible painting/dyeing of leather. I can tell you what I have seen, and recommend things to you that will work for re-enactment purposes, but they may or may not be historically accurate. But that decision of how accurate you want vs what pleases your sense of clan, history or fashion sense is up to you. I do re-enact in Central California. Our temps in the summer range from upper 90s to the 113 F weekend from hell. We do hot a lot, and yet wool is surprisingly comfortable as long as it is lightweight worsted wool, like Kass' suggestion. Woolen wool traps air, which is wonderful for keeping you warm in the winter, but I don't recommend it for the summer. However, I do know of many German mercenaries who do wear the thick wool during the summer, and they survive it somehow. Linen is wonderful for keeping you comfy. And silk is an option. My friend wore silk trews under his linen and wool outfit, and is pretty happy with them. I think they were of the "raw" silk type (the actual silk term is escaping me right now), and he found the material relatively inexpensively at an Indian store. I do also note that most description of trews comment on them being worn during the winter, and there is comments about wearing short hose to the knee otherwise in some of the records. I do strongly suggest from personal experience do not use wool blends with anything manmade. I nearly passed out one faire because I did, and will never wear that outfit again. I also sew and make patterns (custom, not commercial), and I am willing to share whatever knowledge I have, but I need a direction from you on that. What do you want? What do you not want? What haven't we covered that you still need answered? Where can we go from here for you? And since you don't do costumes, do you have someone near you that does and can help you? What do the other people in the group you involve yourself with wear? How accurate are they? How much do you want to appear similar or different from them? Kimiko PS I will be heading out of town Friday afternoon, but am willing to discuss this further when I get back on Sunday. Take it easy all!! Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 03:05:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J75hIO026536 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:05:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J71R76012183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:01:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J71PmG028357; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:01:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J71NmG028335 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:01:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLG002KB8U803@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:03:07 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-reply-to: <007c01c37e61$fc389540$3048ccd1@Kass> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918231209.02f04ac0@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed References: <3F6A7682.85DE8E7E@charter.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8J71NmG028335 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi all, At 11:56 PM 9/18/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Earlier texts and drawings show leinte more like the Rogart shirt, which was >less voluminous. The ancient celts' leinte were generally mid thigh >length and worn with trews, but that is WAY out of period. > >>>> >The Ancient Celts didn't wear léinte... ;) Hmmm... mid thigh length with trews... there are woodcuts showing just this very "description" from 1577 and 1581, so I would say it was rather vague. I have little idea what Ancient Celts wore. Not my period. > >>>> >I'm guessing at leinte embroidery during this time period. Everything >I've seen has shown it plain, but none were of nobility. > >>>> >Doesn't it follow, then, that the nobility didn't wear these voluminous >shirts we call léinte? I'm inclined to think that they did not. I >caution you about taking lack of evidence that something didn't exist as >proof that it did. Very shakey ground, Joe... > >>>> I think we need to clarify the term "nobility". If one means the Scottish noble courts of King James (iv or v) or Queen Mary, I believe they wore garments more like the French or English courts, depending on the Queen and fashion. If one means the highland/island (h/i) chiefs, then who knows. I have yet to see anything specific on them, except stories that don't include descriptions of dress that is clear. >Most seem to be that buttery saffron colour mentioned. I've seen the >ionar on the kern heavily ornamented, so it would read that the wealthy >might do the same. > >>>> >If the wealthy wore léinte and ionar at all. In all my research, the >léine and ionar seem to be the clothing of professional soldiers, not >nobility. I agree, provided we mean Nobility as King's Court nobility. What little I have seen of Irish chiefs, they seem to wear leather outfits. hose and Irish mantle. The question is, did the h/i lairds/chiefs wear the same as the Irish chiefs? And yes, I should be saying chiefs I think, not lairds. Old habit. >The ionar were indeed heavily decorated. But they appear to be tooled >leather, not embroidered cloth. Think about it. I think it could go either way, tooled, painted, fringed, embroidered. I think we have to determine if they were indeed leather or possibly wool. And would a chief/laird wear wool or leather when not at war? > >>>> >King James' highland clothes included a long shirt (sewn together with >red or green silk thread), a "variegated" velvet ionar with a green >taffeta lining, and trews. There were also ribbons on there somewhere as >ornamentation. > >>>> >You see, I think you should replicate this and not try embroidering your >léine. Plus, I'm inclined to think that the "ionar" is more like a 16th >century doublet or jerkin. The records say "short jacket". Are we sure >this is an ionar? I'm not. > >And his long shirt was only made of only 7-1/2 ells of fabric. That's >about over two and a half yards in modern terms. You would think that >if the King wanted a huge léine, he would have had one. But this isn't >enough fabric for the léine I've come to know and love... ;) The note is "15 ells of 'Holland claith to be syde (long or hanging low) Heland Sarkis' at 8/- the ell". They had "4 ells of 'rubanis (ribbons) to the hands of thame' ". There is a note that it is supposed to be two or more shirts sewn with silk, with ribbons at the wrists. And it is noted that this is not enough to pleat, or more material would have been needed. This is from _Old Highland Dress and Tartans_. I would suggest not going with what the King wore, unless it is clear that your clan's chief of the time was close to the Scottish Court. Most h/i chiefs thumbed their noses at the Scottish Kings and flaunted their powers in his face. Why would they dress like him? Something my Irish bard friend did, instead of embroidery, was when he hand sewed his yellow garments, he used a bright red silk thread as a top stitching, giving it a bit of pizzazz but not embroidery per se. A suggestion. My mind is fuzzing, and it is time for sleep. I will ponder this some more and see if I can find anything I have overlooked. It's been several years since I read my books, so I am just skimming right now. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 04:25:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8J8PJIO019864 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:25:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J8Lh76014274 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 02:21:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J8LfsR025782; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 02:21:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8J8LbsR025729 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 02:21:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id h8J8MDA12136.; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:22:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:21:34 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.0 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:20:54 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >>> historian@reconstructinghistory.com 09/18/03 11:33pm >>> wrote: >Kate, there will be two versions of the Hollar cap in the Caps pattern. >And I believe Grannd.com sells to the UK. Whether my distributor will >sell to retail sites in the UK is another matter, but I definitely will >suggest it. I'm hoping our reenactors' traders may eventually stock them. I'll make some enquiries within the society I belong to. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 06:10:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JAAsIO005098 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:10:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JA7Z76017418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:07:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JA7Whi028321; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:07:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web60006.mail.yahoo.com (web60006.mail.yahoo.com [216.109.116.229]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8JA7Uhi028270 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:07:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030919100725.54038.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [132.185.240.12] by web60006.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:07:25 PDT Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:07:25 -0700 (PDT) From: elizabeth hervey Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200309190050.h8J0oPnl017105@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Where to go to get patterns printed? Are there places in Britain and Europ? We're thinking of doing our faery costumes, so many people ask for a pattern. Elizabeth Hervey h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:22:32 -0700 From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns To: Historical Costume , Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030918172232.00cad8b0@pop.directcon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Congratulations, Kass! It seems like jsut yesterday we were emailing back and forth, trying to figure out where to get patterns printed. I'm here to tell you, running an independent pattern company comes second only to motherhood for hard work, but unlike motherhood, the rewards can be material as well as spiritual. Best of luck to you! Margo "One Tough Costumer" www.margospatterns.com === message truncated === --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 06:34:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JAYEIO005138 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:34:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JAVH76018343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:31:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JAVHhi006377; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:31:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JAVEhi006362 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:31:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.83]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:29:50 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:31:23 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c37e99$2cc8d080$5348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918224037.02f08f50@64.87.54.245> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kimiko wrote: <> Kimiko is giving you some good advice here, Joe. But I must disagree with this statement: <> Reenactment is by definition historically accurate. Without historical accuracy, you can certainly make a costume and act like a character you've invented. But you are not reenacting anything. Reenactors aren't perfect. But we have to be as historically accurate as possible or we just end up being the tellers of tall tales. Kimiko also said: <> This is excellent advice! In Pennsylvania, we also have three-digit weather in the summer. But I wear wool all summer long. I wouldn't wear a wool blend if you put a gun to my head. Even a 10% polyester or nylon addition makes a terrible difference. But I wouldn't make a pair of raw silk trews. Number one, I'm a purist and we have no documentation to support the use of noil (I'm assuming that's the word you were looking for, Kimiko) as a fabric in Ireland at this time. Trews were always wool. But Kimiko is correct in that trews were mostly a winter item. In the summer, the Highlanders and Irish were remarked upon as going bare-legged (and often barefooted as well). Number two, silk traps heat in a way that wool does not. A lightweight, "summer" wool will make you a pair of trews that feel as light as cotton. But again, you probably shouldn't wear trews in the summer anyway. I hope we're helping you make some good decisions about your outfit, Joe. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 06:39:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JAd1IO005156 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:39:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JAUe76018294 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:30:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JAUchi006111; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:30:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JAUXhi006071 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:30:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.83]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:29:08 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:30:40 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c37e99$13a607d0$5348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6A2E6B.15420.2A2E5A5B@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com It always seems to me that modern people want to put embroidery on things to denote wealth more than they would have done in the middle ages and renaissance. However, even the non-wealthy could have embroidery, since it was a cottage craft. What they couldn't afford was fine fabrics dyed with expensive dyestuffs. So, it is much more likely that to denote wealth they would have used finer fabrics than the hoi poloi as well as the more expensive dyes. >>>> Good point, Kat. Thank you! >>>> As to Henry's prohibition of saffron, it wasn't just Ireland where it was prohibited. Some have said that it was to make sure that the sheets were white so that he could tell if they were actually clean or not. ;) >>>> That's probably one of those "picking on the Irish" things. According to the records we have, the Irish probably bathed more often than the English did. There's also mention that the Irish "washed" their shirts in saffron to keep lice away. But we know today that saffron has absolutely no pesticide properties. It's just propaganda. Interesting though, isn't it? Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 07:04:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JB4jIO005297 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:04:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JB1S76019037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:01:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JB1QhU016908; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:01:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JB1LhU016876 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:01:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.83]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:59:57 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:01:30 -0400 Message-ID: <002801c37e9d$62212350$5348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <20030919100725.54038.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com There are a number of different routes to take, Elizabeth, and I'm afraid neither Margo nor I can help you with UK and European printers as we're both in the US. Try contacting UK or European pattern producers. Sometimes they will print small runs for "independent designers" as they call us. Also talk to local print shops. Anyone who does large-scale printing should be able to accommodate your needs. Kass -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of elizabeth hervey Sent: 19 September 2003 5:07 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns Where to go to get patterns printed? Are there places in Britain and Europ? We're thinking of doing our faery costumes, so many people ask for a pattern. Elizabeth Hervey _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 07:07:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JB7IIO005308 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:07:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JAxD76018957 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:59:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JAxBhU015968; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:59:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JAx8hU015947 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:59:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.83]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:57:44 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:59:17 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c37e9d$12850aa0$5348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918200806.02f08f50@64.87.54.245> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8JAx8hU015947 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Kimiko, >>>> I wanted to ask you. Are you presuming saffron was expensive back then, because it is so expensive now? I know prices of anything can fluctuate depending on supply and demand. Perhaps the supply was larger then because of all the dyeing, than now, and the prices were more reasonable at that time. Just curious. >>>> No. I'm presuming saffron was expensive back then because the English writers saw the use of saffron as a dye as a sign of wealth. Personally, I think that either saffron was more prevalent than they thought or the Irish were dyeing with something that the English only thought was saffron. I think the whole "saffron shirt = nobility" thing was a mistake made by these English writers. >>>> Oh, I know, not to mention all the regimental jokes, or people asking if we were the Black Watch. We knew years ago when we wore tartans and kilts that it wasn't historically accurate. However we wanted to distinguish ourselves from the Irish in the mind of the public, and that is what the public understands. Nowadays, the major highland regiment/guild I know of dress just like the kerns in the images, and they look shabby and poor, but with nice shiny weapons. And people often think they are Irish, even other re-enactors. >>>> And so did their contemporaries. I can think of a very famous woodcut from the 1630s of MacKay's Regiment wearing belted plaids and being labeled "Irish". They were Highland Scots. >>>> Ok, I understand. My background is similar, and I have been dubbed a costume Nazi in my lifetime, although I am nowhere near as bad as I could be. I will share info on what I have seen others do, as I don't consider myself someone who knows everything. I know that as soon as I think that, someone else will show me just where I messed up, and that's cool because then I learn. >>>> I certain don’t think I know everything either. It just happened that the first email I received from this list was on my subject of expertise. And the poor gentleman was about to commit a great faux pas that I was adamant to save him from: embroidering a 16th century léine like it were a 10th century one. I wanted to protect him from such a mistake. >>>> I can fully agree. It is amazing how much better Living History people are dressing, for all the research that people have done over the years. Take the Shinrone gown for example. I kept hearing stories of how it was supposed to look like, and people made dresses based on various ideas, but didn't have any pic or full description of it. I went on a hunt, found a book in a college library 200 miles away, and photocopied the two pages in the book. I made mine based on a pic of just the front of the gown, and the description. I didn't know what the back looked like. Now, online, there is much more info on what the gown looked like, front and back, and people have made replicas on them and shared all that info. >>>> When I made my first replica of the Shinrone gown, all I had was a copy of Dress in Ireland. But even that didn't give me enough. So I wrote to Mairead Dunlevy (I have a friend in Ireland who knows her). And she invited me to come and examine the gown first hand. THAT was an incredible boon for the hobby! Before that, I had no idea what the Irish wore. Everyone kept telling me that they dressed like lower class English. But I knew that there were also complaints that the Irish continued to dress "in the Irish style". No one seemed to know what that meant. We still don't, for the most part. But we can make better guesses now. As we learn more, we ALL know more, and we get better and better. I love to hear stories from a friend who was in on the beginning of US Civil War reenactment back in the 1960s and how funny it is what they wore then. And I've seen pictures of AWI reenactors from 1976 that would make us laugh out loud today. It's important to remember that we are where we are because of the efforts of these people who came before us. But it's also important to keep moving towards our goal. >>>> And I wanted to say it's been wonderful finding other people like you, on this list, that I can enjoy chatting the details of such a small thing as saffron and Irish clothing, and have it be an enjoyable conversation. I just hope I haven't bored the rest of you all. >>>> Yeah, me too. I hope you've all found this informative, or at the very least amusing. =) Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 07:13:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JBDwIO005372 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:13:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JB8o76019546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:08:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JB8lhU019895; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:08:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JB8ihU019870 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:08:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.83]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:07:20 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:08:52 -0400 Message-ID: <002901c37e9e$69c24de0$5348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6A8DCA.9CF3FB40@charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8JB8ihU019870 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Most certainly the ancient celts didn't wear what we commonly refer to as the leine. I tend to think in modern gaelic terms rather than what most think of as the garment you described, which I also love. >>>> Sure. It's semantics. I knew what you meant, Joe. I'm just pulling your Gaelic leg, cousin. ;) >>>> I've seen description of an 11th century chieftain's clothing that lists his "brilliant white silk shirt" being embroidered about the neck, which enhanced his appearance. I think they even called the thing a kilt instead of a shirt, for crying out loud. >>>> That's because of O'Curry's translation error. The word in Old Irish is the same as the modern Irish "léine". He's definitely not wearing a kilt. >>>> I believe you may be right about King James' jacket. There's no evidence that it was an ionar, so it very well may have been some sort of jerkin or a doublet. This wardrobe is going to get expensive quickly, I see. :o) >>>> If you want to portray nobility, Joe, you have to pay for it. This is one reason I don't portray nobility. =) >>>> Please understand that I'm a doctor of psychology, not a historian, and I tend to view things with a sense of social dynamics. This can have little to do with what actually occurred in times past. So little is known about the clothing from this time that it invites much interpretation and educated "guesswork" from those who travel down its path. I'm drawing from what I've read, what I've been told, and what I've learned from my education. >>>> You're asking good question. I hope we're giving you helpful answers and not muddying the water further. >>>> You are very right about me. I like to do things correctly the first time, even if that means going to the faire in a period green gumby suit with a polka dot plaid brooched at my right shoulder. >>>> What a picture! When it comes down to portraying a person from a time and place about which information is scant, there are decisions to be made. Wear what we know was worn. Try not to fill in what we don't know with assumptions based on other time periods. If it were me, I would do my best to replicate James' outfit -- basically wearing a saffron-dyed shirt with a beribboned English/French velvet doublet and trews. Or I would give up the idea of being nobility and wear the léine and ionar. But in the end, it is your choice. I hope we’ve made things clearer for you and saved you from some pitfalls. =) >>>> ....and I routinely wear kilt to my clan events. I wouldn't trade for it. :o) >>>> And that's certainly the proper venue for it. Wear it in good health! Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 08:16:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JCGHIO005693 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:16:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JCD676021520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:13:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JCD34K013103; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:13:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt29.cluster1.charter.net (remt29.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JCD14K013036 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:13:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [24.196.247.126] (HELO dewshine) by remt29.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with SMTP id 151570217 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:12:53 -0400 Message-ID: <004301c37ea7$f68a41c0$6401a8c0@spa.sc.charter.com> From: "Manly Summerfield" To: Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:17:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] Help with Tailor's Pattern Book X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hiya all, Ive been lurking on this list for a few weeks and this is my first post (Hi Kass! Great news on the Patterns). I received in the mail yesterday a copy of Alcega's Tailor's Book of Patterns. Im very excited but I do not have a clue where to start with this book. Can anyone give me some pointers on how to dig into this book, how to read the measurements, adjust to the overlapped pattern pieces? Thanks, I love this book Muirgheal Molann an obair an fear. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 08:52:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JCqiIO005840 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:52:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JCnc76022919 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:49:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JCnb4K025931; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:49:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com (imo-r02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.98]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JCnX4K025871 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:49:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LoreleiMorte@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.190.1fdaf84c (3850) for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:49:21 -0400 (EDT) From: LoreleiMorte@aol.com Message-ID: <190.1fdaf84c.2c9c5550@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:49:20 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help with Tailor's Pattern Book To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com In a message dated 9/19/2003 7:18:00 AM Central Standard Time, muirgheal@charter.net writes: Ive been lurking on this list for a few weeks and this is my first post (Hi Kass! Great news on the Patterns). I received in the mail yesterday a copy of Alcega's Tailor's Book of Patterns. Im very excited but I do not have a clue where to start with this book. Can anyone give me some pointers on how to dig into this book, how to read the measurements, adjust to the overlapped pattern pieces? w00t! Did I hear Alcega? Deciphering Alcega is one of my favorite things to do. My website is in turmoil right now, but Marion has a lot of great Alcega and conversion charts etc on her site: http://home.att.net/~mmcnealy/index.htm Just remember, what they say is an "ell" isn't an "ell"...it's a baras or Castellian Yard (33 inches). And take in account that each skirt/kirtle etc is 49.5 inches from waist to hem (yup, just like the farthingale). If you want, I can email you a little write up I did on making the Kirtle of Silk for a Fat Woman. I love Alcega...he is the shizznit. -Sarra Wryght www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc) Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 08:58:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JCwHIO005852 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:58:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JCuL76023102 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:56:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JCuKfh028218; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:56:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m07.mx.aol.com (imo-m07.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.162]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JCuHfh028175 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:56:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LoreleiMorte@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.102.35b52ecf (3850) for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:56:08 -0400 (EDT) From: LoreleiMorte@aol.com Message-ID: <102.35b52ecf.2c9c56e7@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:56:07 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help with Tailor's Pattern Book To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Holy Moley, did AOL butcher the look of this email reply I sent...here, I fix! (sorta) In a message dated 9/19/2003 7:50:05 AM Central Standard Time, LoreleiMorte@aol.com writes: <> w00t! Did I hear Alcega? Deciphering Alcega is one of my favorite things to do. My website is in turmoil right now, but Marion has a lot of great Alcega and conversion charts etc on her site: http://home.att.net/~mmcnealy/index.htm Just remember, what they say is an "ell" isn't an "ell"...it's a baras or Castellian Yard (33 inches). And take in account that each skirt/kirtle etc is 49.5 inches from waist to hem (yup, just like the farthingale). If you want, I can email you a little write up I did on making the Kirtle of Silk for a Fat Woman. I love Alcega...he is the shizznit. -Sarra Wryght www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc) Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/loreleisedai/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 09:03:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JD3gIO005875 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:03:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JD0M76023261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:00:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JD0Mfh029834; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:00:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JD0Jfh029765 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:00:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m26.in-tch.com [216.166.191.26]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8JCdwN27828 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6AFE65.A42EE4ED@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:02:29 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <006601c37e54$434342e0$3048ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Could it have been an attempt to make them at least *look* less Irish (at least by the English standards of the time)? Sort of an ethnocentric "civilizing"? --sue, who's been mucking about with earlier styles of Irish clothing lately, and it's driving her pleasantly crazy (babble, babble) Kass McGann wrote: > > Henry the VIII outlawed the use of saffron as a dye in Ireland by Act of > Parliament in 1537. We presume this is because he thought the Irish > were dressing above their station. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 09:19:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JDJqIO005916 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:19:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JDGO76023828 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:16:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JDGLfh006528; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:16:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JDGIfh006459 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:16:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m26.in-tch.com [216.166.191.26]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8JCtwN03128 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:55:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6B0224.9ECA4296@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:18:28 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <000d01c37e99$13a607d0$5348ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Maybe they "washed" those shirts in a solution/dye bath with both yellow and anti-insect properties? Tansy, for instance, gives a decent yellow dye, and has the reputation of repelling flies and insects. Of course, just *washing* things would tend to keep vermin down. --sue Kass McGann wrote: > > >>>> > As to Henry's prohibition of saffron, it wasn't just Ireland where it > was prohibited. Some have said that it was to make sure that the > sheets were white so that he could tell if they were actually clean > or not. ;) > >>>> > That's probably one of those "picking on the Irish" things. According > to the records we have, the Irish probably bathed more often than the > English did. There's also mention that the Irish "washed" their shirts > in saffron to keep lice away. But we know today that saffron has > absolutely no pesticide properties. It's just propaganda. Interesting > though, isn't it? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 09:43:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JDhpIO006024 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:43:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JDhA76024982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:43:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JDh9fh018302; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:43:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14004.mail.yahoo.com (web14004.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.120]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8JDh6fh018269 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:43:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030919134306.33375.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14004.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:43:06 BST Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:43:06 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F6A7682.85DE8E7E@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > See, I do have a little > vested interest in this > period/persona. :o) It's my own history. 16th century Scotland is not my period but I can offer some tidbits from my husbands family that might help. The Irvine clan lost a lot of possessions after one of the last rebellions. Some of those items have started to resurface recently. Some of the paintings purported to be 15thc and 16thc Lairds appear to be 18thc creations showing full dress 'kilts'. Some however appear to be fairly contemporary. In at least one, the man is wearing a jerkin that appears to be an adaptation of a French style common in paintings circa 1540. The sleeves are not as exagerated and you can't really see much of the shirt underneath, but it appears to have been white. Unfortunately you can't see below the waist. I think this painting was dated 1603 and was contemporary with a chair that resurfaced. The chair had the Irvine coat of arms and the date 1603 carved in it. I have no idea how common or uncommon this style was. ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 10:06:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JE6oIO006123 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:06:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JE6F76026306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JE6EpV029065; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:06:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JE6BpV029008 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:06:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m26.in-tch.com [216.166.191.26]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8JDjpN22784 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:45:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6B0DD5.8AD7CBAF@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:08:21 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I know we've discussed (in the past) various things that people have and have not done to achieve a properly fashionable silhouette, but I'd never heard of *this* until a couple of minutes ago (the radio next to my computer desk is playing NPR). NPR has been doing little interview pieces all week about different aspects of modern fashion. Today, they were talking about shoes. They actually interviewed a (female) podiatrist from NYC who will perform surgery on feet so that they fitter better into expensive designer shoes. Including things like toe-shortening! Ouch! For a more-complete look at the articles, there are links on the NPR web page: http://www.npr.org/ The whole series is quite interesting. --sue _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 10:29:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JETSIO006235 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:29:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JESg76027981 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:28:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JESepV011934; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:28:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (cardassian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.45.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JEScpV011838 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:28:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4AFCBEA0E for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:28:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:32:54 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: H-Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi, I made a schoulderrol for my 16th century dress but I am not sure if it looks right. http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/ShoulderrollP.jpg http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html It looks a bit to big to me. Please let me know what you think. I am going to wear this dress again tomorrow and I don't want to look silly. Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 10:44:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JEiVIO006265 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:44:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JEg676029010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:42:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JEg5pV019996; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:42:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JEfxpV019913 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:42:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234])h8JEfttC007231 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030919103728.00b7ee68@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:42:02 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question In-Reply-To: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi there - Judging from the painting you supply as a base, the shoulder roll looks too vertical, and too hard in its lines. As you see in the painting the shoulder roll is not vertical, almost little more than a cap over the shoulder, and its outer appearance is a series of soft lines. Just looking at your photo in the dress - IMO the shoulder roll is overpowering. >I made a schoulderrol for my 16th century dress but I am not sure if it >looks right. >http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/ShoulderrollP.jpg >http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html >It looks a bit to big to me. >Please let me know what you think. >I am going to wear this dress again tomorrow and I don't want to look silly. > >Greetings, > Deredere > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 10:57:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JEv4IO006298 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:57:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JEnw76029580 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:49:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JEnvpV024799; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:49:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from janus.directcon.net (janus.directcon.net [206.170.184.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JEnrpV024759 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:49:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dnyeaqvf (r14a106.directcon.net [207.215.72.106]) by janus.directcon.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h8JEsFv02463; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:54:15 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20030919074829.00cb3140@pop.directcon.net> X-Sender: margospatterns@pop.directcon.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:48:29 -0700 To: Historical Costume , h-costume@indra.com From: Margo Anderson Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reconstructing History Patterns In-Reply-To: <20030919100725.54038.qmail@web60006.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200309190050.h8J0oPnl017105@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 03:07 AM 09/19/2003 -0700, elizabeth hervey wrote: > >Where to go to get patterns printed? Are there places in Britain and Europ? We're thinking of doing our faery costumes, so many people ask for a pattern. > If you're lookng at getting patterns printed on tissue paper, there are only two companies that do it, as far as I know, and both of them are in the US. McCall's patterns and Simplicity Patterns both subcontract their printing services. You have to order a minimum of 1000 copies, so this is not the way to go for something esoteric that not many people will purchase. For that, you're better off having them printed on bond paper, which can be done by most local print shops. Let me know if you want contact information for either or both printers. Margo "One Tough Costumer" www.margospatterns.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 11:29:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JFT5IO006475 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:29:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFSE76003731 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:28:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFSBnW022914; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:28:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.pacifier.net (smtp1.pacifier.net [64.255.237.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFS8nW022876 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:28:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip99.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.164.99]) by smtp1.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B6C708C0 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:28:07 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:26:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... Message-ID: <3F6ABD9A.14831.2C5E2D9A@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F6B0DD5.8AD7CBAF@in-tch.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I know we've discussed (in the past) various things that people have > and have not done to achieve a properly fashionable silhouette, but > I'd never heard of *this* until a couple of minutes ago (the radio > next to my computer desk is playing NPR). NPR has been doing little > interview pieces all week about different aspects of modern fashion. > Today, they were talking about shoes. They actually interviewed a > (female) podiatrist from NYC who will perform surgery on feet so that > they fitter better into expensive designer shoes. Including things > like toe-shortening! Ouch! This one makes me laugh. However, it's not just the "expensive designer shoes" that people want to fit into. If you have one foot which has a toe which is 1/2cm larger than the one on the opposite side and it makes it difficult to *comfortably* fit any shoe, you might go in for a little "toe shortening" too. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 11:34:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JFYKIO006525 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:34:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFXM76004311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:33:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFXJnW027100; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:33:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web.antekhou.com (adsl-66-136-30-169.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [66.136.30.169]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFXFnW027066 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:33:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from escom.antek [192.168.0.151] by web.antekhou.com (SMTPD32-8.00) id A1BA29C0332; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:33:14 -0500 Received: From PACws22 ([65.45.18.250]) by escom.antek (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a); id 1063985593457; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:33:13 -0500 Message-ID: <008d01c37ec3$337c1c00$0f64a8c0@algx> From: "Cyn Bucheger" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:32:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com In general, I think it looks okay, but as another poster noted, it's not the same as your inspiration portrait. If you want it to look more like your inspiration portrait, I'd take most of the stuffing out of the roll. If you're okay with looking more like this http://www.nmm.ac.uk/uploads//jpg/LIZ0289.jpg then I'd leave it alone. Cyn > Hi, > > I made a schoulderrol for my 16th century dress but I am not sure if it > looks right. > http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/ShoulderrollP.jpg > http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html > It looks a bit to big to me. > Please let me know what you think. > I am going to wear this dress again tomorrow and I don't want to look silly. > > Greetings, > Deredere > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 11:46:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JFkIIO007140 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:46:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFjO76005371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:45:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFjLnW006359; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:45:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hiram.io.com (root@hiram.io.com [199.170.88.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFjHnW006288 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:45:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webmail.io.com (columbia.io.com [199.170.88.107]) by hiram.io.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8JFjJ906550 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:45:19 -0500 Received: from io.com (webmail [127.0.0.1]) by webmail.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h8JFkBiO014115 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:46:11 -0500 Received: from 199.50.29.41 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ches) by webmail.io.com with HTTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:46:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <54890.199.50.29.41.1063986371.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:46:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... From: "Chiara" To: In-Reply-To: <3F6ABD9A.14831.2C5E2D9A@localhost> References: <3F6B0DD5.8AD7CBAF@in-tch.com> <3F6ABD9A.14831.2C5E2D9A@localhost> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.11) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com *shyly raises hand* Ok, I admit it, I did this. The ball of my feet were sticking out about a full inch by my big toe. BUT I also had hammer toes and bunions. I was asked at the time if I wanted my toes shortened which shocked me cause I had no idea how long they were until they artificially showed me how long my toes really were and would be once they fixed them. I said no. I went from a 6.5 to an 8, it was that much of a difference on the length that the hammer toes were causing. BTW, this was all hereditary. The ball of my feet slimming however allows me to wear normal width shoes now instead of wide width shoes. You have no idea how much money I am saving!! :) However, my toes are very fat, it is very strange to look at them and see them so oversized in comparison to my tiny skinney toes. I mean we are talking four times the size of the next toe. I would be willing to suck the fat out of that if there was any but I do not think that is what is going on there. :) Great show, listened to it from the archives, http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1435521 Chiara > >> I know we've discussed (in the past) various things that people have >> and have not done to achieve a properly fashionable silhouette, but >> I'd never heard of *this* until a couple of minutes ago (the radio >> next to my computer desk is playing NPR). NPR has been doing little >> interview pieces all week about different aspects of modern fashion. >> Today, they were talking about shoes. They actually interviewed a >> (female) podiatrist from NYC who will perform surgery on feet so that >> they fitter better into expensive designer shoes. Including things >> like toe-shortening! Ouch! > > This one makes me laugh. However, it's not just the "expensive > designer shoes" that people want to fit into. If you have one foot > which has a toe which is 1/2cm larger than the one on the opposite side > and it makes it difficult to *comfortably* fit any shoe, you might go > in for a little "toe shortening" too. > > Kat > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 11:59:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JFxeIO007197 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:59:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFwm76006642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:58:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFwkDg016618; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:58:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8JFwhDg016579 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:58:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 8945 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2003 15:58:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ) (209.142.2.50) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 19 Sep 2003 15:58:43 -0000 Received: from 162.119.64.111 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com) by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <54002.162.119.64.111.1063987123.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question From: To: In-Reply-To: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl> References: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Hi, > > I made a schoulderrol for my 16th century dress but I am not sure if it > looks right. > http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/ShoulderrollP.jpg > http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html > It looks a bit to big to me. > Please let me know what you think. > I am going to wear this dress again tomorrow and I don't want to look > silly. > > Greetings, > Deredere Deredere, I agree with the other lady who said that your inspiration portrait has a different look than the shoulder roll you made. Could it be that some shoulder rolls weren't padded/stuffed at all? I have done some German renaissance styles where I used a base sleeve and sewed loops onto the top to create a rounded appearance. If you stuff chemise material under the loops, they look very similar to your shoulderroll. But then I guess that still makes them stuffed, huh? Diana _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:00:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JG0MIO007204 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:00:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFxl76006744 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:59:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFxkDg017512; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:59:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFxfDg017411 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:59:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.238]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:58:15 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:59:49 -0400 Message-ID: <000401c37ec7$0ec885c0$ee6453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F6AFE65.A42EE4ED@in-tch.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Could it have been an attempt to make them at least *look* less Irish (at least by the English standards of the time)? Sort of an ethnocentric "civilizing"? >>>> Oh most definitely. At least that was the stated intent of Henry's legislation: to "civilize" the Irish, i.e. Anglicize them. >>>> --sue, who's been mucking about with earlier styles of Irish clothing lately, and it's driving her pleasantly crazy (babble, babble) >>>> Welcome to my world, Sue. Enjoy! This kind of insanity has it's own special charms. =) Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:03:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JG36IO007219 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:03:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFxw76006772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:59:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFxuDg017654; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:59:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JFxpDg017574 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:59:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fd7.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.215]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id C22525EE0D5 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:59:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004201c37ec7$17f4b290$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:00:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Subject: [h-cost] 17.th century lace X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi. A lace buddy sended me this rare auction piece. This is a terrific piece for those of you who reenackt 17.th century. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39448&item=2559080855 Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:05:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JG5kIO007227 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:05:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JG4n76007181 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:04:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JG4lDg021315; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:04:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JG4jDg021240 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:04:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBEB19FF79 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:04:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F6B2A1C.8090905@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:09:00 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question References: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl> <008d01c37ec3$337c1c00$0f64a8c0@algx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com MMmmm... Your right it also looks a lot like the schoulderrolls of this portrait http://www.members.shaw.ca/holding/elizabethan/orangegirl.jpg Greetings, Deredere Cyn Bucheger wrote: >In general, I think it looks okay, but as another poster noted, it's not the >same as your inspiration portrait. If you want it to look more like your >inspiration portrait, I'd take most of the stuffing out of the roll. > >If you're okay with looking more like this >http://www.nmm.ac.uk/uploads//jpg/LIZ0289.jpg >then I'd leave it alone. > >Cyn > > > > >>Hi, >> >>I made a schoulderrol for my 16th century dress but I am not sure if it >>looks right. >>http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/ShoulderrollP.jpg >>http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html >>It looks a bit to big to me. >>Please let me know what you think. >>I am going to wear this dress again tomorrow and I don't want to look >> >> >silly. > > >>Greetings, >> Deredere >> >> >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:10:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JGAhIO007245 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:10:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JG9j76007544 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:09:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JG9jDg024979; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:09:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JG9gDg024908 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:09:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8JG9ZYg002767 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:09:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030919120132.00b2a6d8@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:09:21 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sue Clemenger wrote: >NPR has been doing little interview pieces all week about different >aspects of modern fashion. Today, they were talking about shoes. They >actually interviewed a (female) podiatrist from NYC who will perform >surgery on feet so that they fitter better into expensive designer >shoes. Including things like toe-shortening! Ouch! Interesting that you use the English title of the story... The only place I recall reading about the step-sisters maiming themselves to fit into the slippers was in a translation of the German version (Aschenputtel? my spelling's probably way off! and I don't remember if it was as collected by the Brothers Grimm or not), and the shoes in question were not glass, but something else (silk?)... As I recall, the one step-sister cut off her toes; the other, her heel -- and as the prince started off with the step-sister as bride, the shoes cried out something like, "No! No! There's blood on the shoe! The shoe is too small -- Not the right bride at all!" And the prince turned back around and questioned the step-mother again. I also remember those German versions of fairy tales including some rather gruesome (but Period) methods of torture for the stepmothers and step-sisters who would have thwarted the prince or king. (I think they were the first places I read relatively detailed descriptions of "drawing and quartering"...) Now I'm wondering whether or not Mom decided to donate that particular collection of fairy tales to the library (or if it's sitting in cartons in the closet)... Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:13:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JGDOIO007263 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:13:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGCW76007825 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:12:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGCUDg027023; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:12:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (cardassian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.45.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGCQDg026911 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:12:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE87BEAA5 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:12:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F6B2BEA.3060505@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:16:42 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question References: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl> <54002.162.119.64.111.1063987123.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >Deredere, > >I agree with the other lady who said that your inspiration portrait has a >different look than the shoulder roll you made. > >Could it be that some shoulder rolls weren't padded/stuffed at all? I >have done some German renaissance styles where I used a base sleeve and >sewed loops onto the top to create a rounded appearance. If you stuff >chemise material under the loops, they look very similar to your >shoulderroll. But then I guess that still makes them stuffed, huh? > It does look like it ismaby very lightly padded. If I would use the linnen fluffy layer and stuf that a little instead of putting the felt role in it it would probably look more like the portrait. My plan is to make them detachable becouse I use this dres also for archery and I think they would be in the way of my bowstring. So I could try to make both styles Don't wan't to take this one appart to change it. And don't have time to make the other style before tomorrow. By the way does anyone knows the date of the portrait I am "recreating"? Greetings, Deredere > >Diana > > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:25:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JGPOIO007331 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:25:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGOO76008745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:24:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGONDg006200; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:24:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav6.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGOJDg006092 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:24:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:24:14 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav6.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:24:14 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030919120132.00b2a6d8@mail.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:25:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Sep 2003 16:24:14.0393 (UTC) FILETIME=[77254290:01C37ECA] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Interesting that you use the English title of the story... The only place I > recall reading about the step-sisters maiming themselves to fit into the > slippers was in a translation of the German version (Aschenputtel? my > spelling's probably way off! and I don't remember if it was as collected by > the Brothers Grimm or not), and the shoes in question were not glass, but > something else (silk?)... I know that the way it's told now in French is VERRE, as in glass. But it might have come from VAIR, as in fur. I don't know if it the error did come from a French translation or not. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:26:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JGQiIO007338 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:26:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGQ476008879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:26:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGQ3Dg007549; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:26:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGPwDh007390 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:25:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8JGWQAC014981 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:32:26 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F6B2E41.4060706@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:26:41 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030919120132.00b2a6d8@mail.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030919120132.00b2a6d8@mail.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Brenda wrote: > I also remember those German versions of fairy tales including some > rather gruesome (but Period) methods of torture for the stepmothers and > step-sisters I think it's that the English writers are more likely to have bowdlerized the tales. IIRC, the original Snow White wasn't a kiss that revived her, it was rape, which jostled the apple chunk out of her mouth. These things were folk tales, and not really meant for young kids. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent The Prince looked down at the motionless form of Sleeping Beauty, wondering how her supple lips would feel against his own and contemplating whether or not an Altoid was strong enough to stand up against the kind of morning breath only a hundred year's nap could create. -- Lynne Sella, one of the winners of the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:27:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JGREIO007341 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:27:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGQN76008941 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:26:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGQLDg007800; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:26:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav37.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.94]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGQIDg007698 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:26:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:26:13 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav37.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:26:12 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl><54002.162.119.64.111.1063987123.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <3F6B2BEA.3060505@kabelfoon.nl> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:27:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Sep 2003 16:26:13.0144 (UTC) FILETIME=[BDED3980:01C37ECA] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com From: "Deredere Galbraith" > By the way does anyone knows the date of the portrait I am "recreating"? If you mean the pinkish dress with all the appliques and the spiral sleeves with aiglets, then I have it recorded as: Isabel de Valois, c.1560s by Alonso Sanchez Coello _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:41:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JGfLIO007396 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:41:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGeM76010090 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:40:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGeKDg018774; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:40:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8JGeFDg018627 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:40:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCmEtHpxU6JDCXGMbIdUEla7WZqYHPFV8uw==">; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:39:59 PDT Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JAF2L4V7; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:39:59 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:33:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... Message-ID: <20030919.113308.-7442305.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-7,9-10,13-19,21-52 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I heard/saw an old movie version of Cinderella years ago which had a chorus of doves on the dovecot singing out: Coo-ka-ree-coo, coo-ka-ree-coo! We see blood on the shoe, we do! When the bloody effects of the step-sister's mutilation start to show. Although you'd think that in a glass slipper, that sort of thing would be pretty obvious. I too have heard the verre/vair word switch theory. It makes a certain amount of sense, especially in a time that might spell more phonetically than we do. But it's still just a theory. Karen On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:26:41 -0400 Cynthia Virtue writes: > Brenda wrote: > > I also remember those German versions of fairy tales including > some > > rather gruesome (but Period) methods of torture for the > stepmothers and > > step-sisters > > I think it's that the English writers are more likely to have > bowdlerized the tales. IIRC, the original Snow White wasn't a kiss > that > revived her, it was rape, which jostled the apple chunk out of her > mouth. > > These things were folk tales, and not really meant for young kids. > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > > The Prince looked down at the motionless form of Sleeping Beauty, > wondering how her supple lips would feel against his own and > contemplating whether or not an Altoid was strong enough to stand up > > against the kind of morning breath only a hundred year's nap could > create. -- Lynne Sella, one of the winners of the Bulwer-Lytton > Fiction Contest > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 12:52:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JGqqIO007439 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:52:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGq676011127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:52:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGq4Dg027689; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:52:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JGq1Dh027533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:52:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8JGwSAC015124 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:58:28 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F6B345C.2060101@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:52:44 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Vair/Verre Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... References: <20030919.113308.-7442305.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <20030919.113308.-7442305.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com This is a useful tidbit in the discussion, although the state of the folklore art may have advanced since it was written in 1998. "But Perrault didn't invent the glass slipper, and it probably didn't arise from vair/verre confusion either. As the French folklorist Paul Delarue pointed out in a 1951 essay, "one can also find [glass shoes in Cinderella stories] in other countries where there is no homonym which permits the confusion." For example, glass shoes appear in an old Scottish version of the Cinderella tale as well as in several stories in Irish folk literature." http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a981023.html for the rest of it. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 13:58:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JHwNIO007901 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:58:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JHvd76016365 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:57:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JHvbIF019957; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:57:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.suscom.net (smtp.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JHvWIF019818 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:57:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E8A4B1B2692 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00ee01c37ed7$7cc43e10$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030919.113308.-7442305.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:57:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... > I heard/saw an old movie version of Cinderella years ago which had a > chorus of doves on the dovecot singing out: > > Coo-ka-ree-coo, coo-ka-ree-coo! > We see blood on the shoe, we do! > > When the bloody effects of the step-sister's mutilation start to show. > > Although you'd think that in a glass slipper, that sort of thing would be > pretty obvious. Yes, that is in the Grimm Brothers' version of the story. My sister and I cherished that book, but some of the stories definitely were a little grim! (pun intended!) Dianne > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 14:58:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JIwAIO008089 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:58:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIvD76020836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:57:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIv7ZV004174; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:57:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIv2ZX004079 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:57:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLH00EKM5WNID@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:52:35 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-reply-to: <3F6AFE65.A42EE4ED@in-tch.com> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030919115206.02f0d2a0@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <006601c37e54$434342e0$3048ccd1@Kass> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 07:02 AM 9/19/2003 -0600, you wrote: >--sue, who's been mucking about with earlier styles of Irish clothing >lately, and it's driving her pleasantly crazy (babble, babble) Enjoy the Irish clothing. I find them so much more comfortable than the English court styles. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 14:58:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JIwdIO008092 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:58:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIvr76020893 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:57:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIvrZV004747; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:57:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIv2ZV004079 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:57:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLH00EKM5WNID@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:36:47 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question In-reply-to: <3F6B2BEA.3060505@kabelfoon.nl> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030919112942.02ee46d8@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl> <54002.162.119.64.111.1063987123.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Deredere, The other portrait you showed is one I based my first nobles dress, which I made several years ago. The shoulder area is only padded lightly with light netting under the organza layer, with velvet "loops" a bit longer than the under shoulder piece. The pattern was taken from Jean Hunnisett's book, Period Costume for Stage and Screen. The shoulder "roll" definitely droops off the actual shoulder and is very soft support, not a hard roll. The shoulder pieces are made up separately, then tacked onto the shoulder of the bodice, which would make it easy to convert to a detachable type. I never did any archery while wearing the dress, preferring a different garment for similar reasons to your own. hth, Kimiko At 06:16 PM 9/19/2003 +0200, you wrote: >It does look like it ismaby very lightly padded. >If I would use the linnen fluffy layer and stuf that a little instead of >putting the felt role in it it would probably look more like the portrait. >My plan is to make them detachable becouse I use this dres also for >archery and I think they would be in the way of my bowstring. >So I could try to make both styles Don't wan't to take this one appart to >change it. And don't have time to make the other style before tomorrow. >By the way does anyone knows the date of the portrait I am "recreating"? > >Greetings, > Deredere Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 14:59:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JIx4IO008098 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:59:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIw776020932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:58:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIw6ZV004895; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:58:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIv2ZZ004079 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:57:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLH00EKM5WNID@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:58:03 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... In-reply-to: <3F6B0DD5.8AD7CBAF@in-tch.com> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030919115729.02f1ad08@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com And I thought foot binding by the Orientals were nasty. Ouch! Kimiko At 08:08 AM 9/19/2003 -0600, you wrote: >NPR has been doing little interview pieces all week about different >aspects of modern fashion. Today, they were talking about shoes. They >actually interviewed a (female) podiatrist from NYC who will perform >surgery on feet so that they fitter better into expensive designer >shoes. Including things like toe-shortening! Ouch! Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 14:59:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JIxGIO008101 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:59:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIw176020916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:58:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIw0ZV004836; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:58:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JIv2Zb004079 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:57:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLH00EKM5WNID@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:58:38 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17.th century lace In-reply-to: <004201c37ec7$17f4b290$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030919115808.02f1c4f8@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 06:00 PM 9/19/2003 +0200, you wrote: >Hi. >A lace buddy sended me this rare auction piece. >This is a terrific piece for those of you who reenackt 17.th century. >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=39448&item=2559080855 > >Bjarne I wish I could afford such beautiful lace. Thanks for sharing, at least I could drool over the pics. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 15:08:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JJ8DIO008133 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:08:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JJ7J76021877 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:07:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JJ7HZV011851; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:07:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JJ7EZV011825 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:07:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.115]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:05:49 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:07:23 -0400 Message-ID: <000101c37ee1$4308d6e0$7348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-reply-to: <5.2.1.1.0.20030919115206.02f0d2a0@64.87.54.245> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Enjoy the Irish clothing. I find them so much more comfortable than the English court styles. >>>> Now *there* we completely agree, Kimiko! Cheers, Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 15:51:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JJpOIO008270 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:51:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JJo376025403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:50:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JJnwZV012295; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:49:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JJntZV012250 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:49:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1A0RGN-000PZv-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:49:55 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:49:45 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030918200806.02f08f50@64.87.54.245> <002701c37e9d$12850aa0$5348ccd1@Kass> In-Reply-To: <002701c37e9d$12850aa0$5348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kass McGann wrote >>>>> >Oh, I know, not to mention all the regimental jokes, or people asking if >we >were the Black Watch. We knew years ago when we wore tartans and kilts >that >it wasn't historically accurate. However we wanted to distinguish >ourselves >from the Irish in the mind of the public, and that is what the public >understands. Nowadays, the major highland regiment/guild I know of dress > >just like the kerns in the images, and they look shabby and poor, but >with >nice shiny weapons. And people often think they are Irish, even other >re-enactors. >>>>> >And so did their contemporaries. I can think of a very famous woodcut >from the 1630s of MacKay's Regiment wearing belted plaids and being >labeled "Irish". They were Highland Scots. >>>>> This is not necessarily an error, but a change in terminology. "Irish" could be used in the sense we might say "Gaels", meaning any of those related Celtic groups. You know, all those wild hairy types who won't wear civilised clothing and speak that heathen gabble, you can't be expected to tell them apart Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 16:41:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JKfEIO008405 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:41:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JKdk76029440 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:39:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JKdhjq019083; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:39:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JKdejq019040 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:39:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.25]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:38:15 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:39:50 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c37eee$2cfcd830$7348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com This is not necessarily an error, but a change in terminology. "Irish" could be used in the sense we might say "Gaels", meaning any of those related Celtic groups. You know, all those wild hairy types who won't wear civilised clothing and speak that heathen gabble, you can't be expected to tell them apart >>>> That's sure true, Jean. The English (and Germans -- the woodcut to which I referred was in German) used the terms "Scots" and "Irish" interchangeably. This is one of the reasons it both amuses and saddens me that those two peoples aren't better "friends" today. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 16:46:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JKkiIO008415 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:46:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JKjm76029801 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:45:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JKjljq023722; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:45:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt24.cluster1.charter.net (remt24.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JKjijq023608 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:45:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt24.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 165808313 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:45:29 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6B6A9D.1734363A@charter.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:44:13 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <002901c37e9e$69c24de0$5348ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Group hug, everyone! You are a trooper, Kass. I see no reason why I can't explore the well off end of the spectrum and the middle class sorts (sorry, I just love that leine). The cost doesn't scare me off. My son already has a 16th century leine made from the pattern on Matthew Newsome's website dedicated to this period. I should perhaps see some good examples of the and shirts doublets you recommend, (although I do want to reproduce a period ionar in the future) and I need to browse correct fabrics for the right combination. I just need to find a good selection online. Slainte, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 16:58:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JKwWIO008454 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:58:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JKvl76000898 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:57:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JKvk88003143; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:57:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt21.cluster1.charter.net (remt21.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.31]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JKvg88003023 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:57:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt21.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 164044547 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:57:03 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6B6D4E.5DA30766@charter.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:55:42 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <000e01c37e99$2cc8d080$5348ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com OK, this means the summer clothing would perhaps be the knee length shirt, belted, with nothing below. A jacket and brat completes the image. This is what I've seen the most of in engravings and paintings. Don't worry about the wool blends. They won't be on my bod. I prefer the real deal, just in a lighter weight for our weather here. I've yet to discuss the brat's contruction at this point... another can o' worms? :o) Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 17:19:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JLJgIO008538 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:19:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLHh76002339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:17:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLHe88017362; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:17:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLH588016924 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:17:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLH005L1CGG05@keaton.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:19:41 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine In-reply-to: <3F6B6D4E.5DA30766@charter.net> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030919141559.02f217f8@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <000e01c37e99$2cc8d080$5348ccd1@Kass> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 03:55 PM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote: > I've yet to discuss the brat's contruction at this point... another >can o' worms? :o) >Joe That I will leave to Kass or others, as I am not as up to date on the latest historical info, other than what is in my books on them. I have seen my friends' brats, but not made one up myself. I understand they are wool with a fur lining, which is rather warm to my tastes. I have seen them done as a simple wool cloak with a fur rug thingy on the shoulders. My hubby has one as well, but he based his on the common conception at faire, not on anything specifically historical. I think he even added fringing on the edges, and lacing to decorate the seams. It also has that fur rug thingy on the shoulders, which makes it nice for chilly evenings or mornings. But again, it isn't based on anything specifically period. Kass or others, what do you suggest? Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 17:19:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JLJuIO008542 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:19:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLHx76002374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:17:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLHx88017557; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:17:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLHm88017458 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:17:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-67.74.143.225.dial1.houston1.level3.net ([67.74.143.225] helo=diane) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A0SdN-0006NZ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:17:48 -0700 Message-ID: <007c01c37ef3$7f1aee90$e18f4a43@diane> From: "Diane Maynard" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:17:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Elizabethan is the time period I play in but, I am not the expert others on this list are. That said, for me, there are two problems with your shoulder roll as seen in the photo. First, I believe it is too far up on your shoulder. It needs to be at the outer point of your shoulder (almost falling off) to extend the width of your upper body. Next, bring the height of the shoulder roll down and make it wider. The object of the shoulder roll is to show a broader upper body distance between the shoulders and create a greater " v " shape between the shoulder and waist line. Ie : The broader the shoulders, the smaller the waist looks. Just my two cents, Diane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deredere Galbraith" To: "H-Costume" Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 9:32 AM Subject: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question > Hi, > > I made a schoulderrol for my 16th century dress but I am not sure if it > looks right. > http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/ShoulderrollP.jpg > http://www.deredere.dds.nl/16thcent_dress/16thcent_dress.html > It looks a bit to big to me. > Please let me know what you think. > I am going to wear this dress again tomorrow and I don't want to look silly. > > Greetings, > Deredere > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 17:46:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JLkAIO008620 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:46:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLi176004234 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:44:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLi088005180; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:44:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLhv88005154 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:43:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.25]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:42:32 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:44:07 -0400 Message-ID: <001901c37ef7$27b71e40$7348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-reply-to: <3F6B6A9D.1734363A@charter.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Group hug, everyone! >>>> Thanks Joe! >>>> You are a trooper, Kass. I see no reason why I can't explore the well off end of the spectrum and the middle class sorts (sorry, I just love that leine). The cost doesn't scare me off. >>>> No reason in the world then! Go for it. >>>> My son already has a 16th century leine made from the pattern on Matthew Newsome's website dedicated to this period. I should perhaps see some good examples of the and shirts doublets you recommend, (although I do want to reproduce a period ionar in the future) and I need to browse correct fabrics for the right combination. I just need to find a good selection online. >>>> I don't know if you frequent the Armour Archive (armourarchive.org), but they had a discussion on the Research and Authenticity board this week about online fabric sources. Some good stuff there. I advise you to check it out. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 17:53:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JLrMIO008641 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:53:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLpD76004770 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:51:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLpB88009951; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:51:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JLp788009910 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:51:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.25]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:49:42 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:51:17 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c37ef8$282ec9d0$7348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-reply-to: <3F6B6D4E.5DA30766@charter.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com OK, this means the summer clothing would perhaps be the knee length shirt, belted, with nothing below. A jacket and brat completes the image. This is what I've seen the most of in engravings and paintings. >>>> That's my image of what's proper, Joe. You've got the picture now. >>>> Don't worry about the wool blends. They won't be on my bod. I prefer the real deal, just in a lighter weight for our weather here. >>>> Rockin'! Ain't nothing like real wool. =) >>>> I've yet to discuss the brat's contruction at this point... another can o' worms? :o) >>>> It's really quite simple. The extant brats (or is that "brait"?) that we have (and there are quite a few in the National Museum of Ireland and the Ulster Museum in Belfast) are all constructed in the same way. They are two to three strips of 22" wide, heavily-fulled wool lashed together along their selvedges (long non-ravelly edges) with pieces take off here and sewn on there to make a semicircle. The grain of the fabric lies across the shoulders, rather than down the back. So if you want to copy an original, cut your heavy coat wool into 22" wide strips, sew two lengths together at their sides, cut the whole thing into a semi-circle, and wear. Or you could just cut a semi-circle out of coat-weight wool. But that'd be cheatin'! Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 19:28:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8JNSYIO008861 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:28:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JNRT76011045 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:27:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8JNRQhl006651; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:27:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web12008.mail.yahoo.com (web12008.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.216]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8JNRNhl006631 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:27:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030919232723.99368.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.221.225.216] by web12008.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:27:23 PDT Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:27:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Cascio Michael To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I know we discussed this recently so if someone can remember....What decades of the 1700s and the 1800s did the list decide would be good for the Indian-style reprints at JoAnn's? I picked some up as a lower class day dress but don't see a decade given as to when the print would be appropriate? Also the recent discussion of Highland clothing has me wondering when knotwork would be appropriate as a decorative motif? Some of the blackwork looks like a basic cable which seems to show up in blackwork but also as a skirt decoration on ACW era dresses plus all the cable motifs on quilts. Any thoughts? Cassandra (the slowly recovering from surgery and needs massive distractions going stir crazy house bound :P) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 22:12:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8K2CPIO009240 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:12:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2Bi76018224 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:11:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2Bdeg015373; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:11:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2Bbeg015333 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:11:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m129.in-tch.com [216.166.191.129]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8K1pGp01344 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:51:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6BB7DB.29843721@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:13:47 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <000101c37ee1$4308d6e0$7348ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Well, ladies, since it's middle-class and 14th century to boot, you *betcha* it's more comfortable! What can I say? Dublin last year swallowed me, hook line and sinker! (that's a pretty mixed up metaphor, but I think you'll understand me, anyway!) I'm not a completely new convert, though, Kass. My persona has always been Irish, although bouncing around without settling on a time frame. And although I've finally settled on late 14th c. Dublin, I'm just a costume hound at heart (which is why I love this list--I can get all my costuming fixes here!) --sue Kass McGann wrote: > > Enjoy the Irish clothing. I find them so much more comfortable than the > English court styles. > >>>> > Now *there* we completely agree, Kimiko! > > Cheers, > Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 22:14:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8K2EeIO009244 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:14:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2E576018320 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:14:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2E4eg016321; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:14:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt27.cluster1.charter.net (remt27.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2E2eg016258 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:14:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt27.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 165014613 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:13:37 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6BB785.F7EAD945@charter.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 21:12:21 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <001c01c37ef8$282ec9d0$7348ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Is there any historical reference to the highland brat being made differently? I am consulting my copy of McLintock's Old Irish and Highland Dress as we speak to try and answer that one. I have read texts that mention a simple tartan or checked rectangle of wool fastened with a brooch. These texts also stated that the well off preferred cloaks of varied and diverse colors. I've seen evidence of solids, but more in reference to Irish cloaks. I don't see why a highland gentleman wouldn't own more than one brat, perhaps multicolored and some solid. It is also in these texts that I have read of decorations or fringe of sorts on the garment. So far, I've received mixed opinions on the topic of the brat alone. Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 22:21:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8K2LTIO009269 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:21:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2Kv76018567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:20:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2Kueg019003; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:20:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2Kqeg018955 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:20:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m129.in-tch.com [216.166.191.129]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8K20Wp04347 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:00:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6BBA07.DE053B98@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:23:03 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030919120132.00b2a6d8@mail.earthlink.net> <3F6B2E41.4060706@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Yeah, and Sleeping Beauty (in the original) wasn't awakened with any nonsense about love's first kiss--she was in labor, because the prince had snuck in and, well, impregnated her while she was unconscious. IIRC, "Cinderella" is French in origin. And I think I've pretty much always known about the maiming of the stepsisters. It makes a pretty powerful metaphor.... --sue, who actually collects adult fairy tales Cynthia Virtue wrote: > > Brenda wrote: > > I also remember those German versions of fairy tales including some > > rather gruesome (but Period) methods of torture for the stepmothers and > > step-sisters > > I think it's that the English writers are more likely to have > bowdlerized the tales. IIRC, the original Snow White wasn't a kiss that > revived her, it was rape, which jostled the apple chunk out of her mouth. > > These things were folk tales, and not really meant for young kids. > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > > The Prince looked down at the motionless form of Sleeping Beauty, > wondering how her supple lips would feel against his own and > contemplating whether or not an Altoid was strong enough to stand up > against the kind of morning breath only a hundred year's nap could > create. -- Lynne Sella, one of the winners of the Bulwer-Lytton > Fiction Contest > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 19 22:43:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8K2hqIO009339 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:43:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2h276019712 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:43:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8K2h0eg027333; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:43:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web80101.mail.yahoo.com (web80101.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.169.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8K2gueg027299 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 20:42:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030920024256.85740.qmail@web80101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.122.24.255] by web80101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:42:56 PDT Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:42:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jennifer Fleury To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200309200221.h8K2L6eh019078@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] the shoulder roll question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm glad someone recommended the Jean Hunnisett book, I was going to myself as well. Here is a picture of a gown I collaborated on which was made from the same portrait (sorry about the lighting in the pic! better pics coming in October). We used the Jean Hunnisett pattern "portrait of an unknown girl" and simply didn't do the panes and replaced the inverted scallop edging with rounded tabs to bring it closer to the portrait. There is no stuffing. The roll consists of a cotton backing, 2 layers of ballerina net, and the layer of silk. The net and silk are gathered on both edges and mounted to the cotton. It is incredibly lightweight and while it holds its shape well, it also is wonderfully "smushable" if needs be! http://www.guildofstaugustine.org/mary%20pembroke%20lb03.JPG Jennifer Fleury Guild Master 2003-2004 The Guild of St. Augustine www.guildofstaugustine.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 08:04:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KC4cIO016015 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:04:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KC3p76007261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:03:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KC3nSW002909; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:03:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KC3kSW002895 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:03:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.104]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:02:20 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:03:59 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c37f6f$46cb6ca0$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <20030919232723.99368.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Also the recent discussion of Highland clothing has me wondering when knotwork would be appropriate as a decorative motif? Some of the blackwork looks like a basic cable which seems to show up in blackwork but also as a skirt decoration on ACW era dresses plus all the cable motifs on quilts. Any thoughts? >>>> Well, let's not confuse Celtic knotwork with scroll motifs. By Celtic knotwork I mean someone took a page out of the Book of Kells or off a stone cross and embroidered it on your shirt. We have no evidence that that was done. We have no proof that what was used to decorate stone and manuscript pages was ever used on cloth. Matter of fact, we don't even have evidence that knotwork was used as a decorative technique in the 16th century at all on any kind of medium. Scrolling embroidery motifs are seen at least in Italy and England in the 16th century. But interwoven vines and cables are quite the same thing as doggies biting their own tails and complex knots like in the Celtic motifs. See what I mean? Hope you recover quickly and aren't house-bound for long. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 10:02:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KE2jIO016308 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:02:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KDwJ76011406 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:58:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KDwHPl010060; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:58:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KDwEPl010045 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:58:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.104]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:56:47 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:58:26 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c37f7f$445214f0$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6BB785.F7EAD945@charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Is there any historical reference to the highland brat being made differently? I am consulting my copy of McLintock's Old Irish and Highland Dress as we speak to try and answer that one. >>>> There's rather more evidence, Joe, that the Irish and Highland brats were made in the same manner. But that being said, it doesn't mean that they were all made in the same way. Let me explain: All the extant cloaks we currently have in Irish museums are made in the manner I described -- narrow strips of heavily-fulled wool, sewn together along their edges and cut into a semi-circular shape. That being said, some textual references to cloaks/brats describes them as being rectangular (or don't specify shape), variegated or solid-coloured, fringed or not, etc. De Heere and Derricke's pictures, though, appear to show semi-circular cloaks. There are many textual references to Irish "shaggy mantles" of which the Mantle of St. Brigid (housed in the Cathedral at Bruges) may be an extant example. It has long, unspun pieces of wool inserted into the weave which would have been worn on the inside and would have made the garment warm and nearly waterproof. This is where people get the mistaken impression that Irish mantles should be fur lined. It was never fur. It was unspun wool inside them. Obviously the belted plaid evolved from the brat on the cusp of the 17th century and this would have had to be a rectangular piece of cloth. So it is entirely possible that they were wearing big rectangles in the 16th century. It's just the ones that have survived haven't been that shape. Of course rectangles are easy to cut up and make other things out of, so it's really not a shock that they haven't survived. =) Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 10:14:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KEEBIO016341 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:14:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KE9v76011763 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:09:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KE9uPl014044; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:09:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KE9rPl013999 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:09:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from comcast.net (pcp456786pcs.shklfd01.ar.comcast.net[68.51.39.237](misconfigured sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003092014094701400bb3cje>; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:09:47 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:07:15 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: Allison To: h-costume@indra.com, margospatterns@yahoogroups.com, Italian_Rennaissance_Costuming@yahoogroups.com, TheCostumersManifesto@yahoogroups.com, elizabethanClothing@yahoogroups.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [h-cost] did Leonardo invent high heels? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com This links to an article in today's New York Times which credits Leonardo daVinci as the (probable) inventor of high heels. Did he? Were there any high heels in evidence prior to the 16C? Costume scholars? Fashionistas? Anyone? Bueller? http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/opinion/20SAT4.html?th _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 10:51:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KEpcIO016435 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:51:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KElI76013029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:47:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KElEPl026463; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:47:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KElBPl026441 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:47:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08084 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:09:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:09:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork In-Reply-To: <000b01c37f6f$46cb6ca0$6848ccd1@Kass> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Kass McGann wrote: > Matter of fact, we don't even have evidence that knotwork was used as > a decorative technique in the 16th century at all on any kind of > medium. Though I did once see some Celtic-type knotwork in, hmm, either tiling or wall paint on a surface in the background behind a portrait of Henry VIII. It would take me a while to track down the portrait again and refresh my memory. Doesn't mean it's actually Celtic; a decorative motif is a decorative motif and can appear independently in different cultures. And as Kass notes elsewhere, its presence on a wall has absolutely no bearing to anything anyone might wear without evidence that they used the motif in clothing too. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 11:00:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KF0DIO016475 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:00:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KEtn76013305 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:55:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KEtnOj001166; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:55:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8KEtlOj001099 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:55:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OntUnHjXeVtmyzq+AxMZTts=">; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:55:36 PDT Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JAJE2PSR; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:55:36 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:32:01 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] did Leonardo invent high heels? Message-ID: <20030920.075516.2044.0.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-18 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Look at some of the paintings from the Elizabethan period. Those high-class folks weren't wearing flats! Arlys On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:07:15 -0500 Allison writes: > This links to an article in today's New York Times which credits > Leonardo daVinci as the (probable) inventor of high heels. Did he? > > Were there any high heels in evidence prior to the 16C? Costume > scholars? Fashionistas? Anyone? Bueller? > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/opinion/20SAT4.html?th > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 11:03:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KF3sIO016483 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:03:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KEsW76013264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:54:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KEsVPl000706; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:54:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KEsRPl000666 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:54:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.104]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:53:00 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:54:39 -0400 Message-ID: <001801c37f87$1ec69870$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Though I did once see some Celtic-type knotwork in, hmm, either tiling or wall paint on a surface in the background behind a portrait of Henry VIII. It would take me a while to track down the portrait again and refresh my memory. Doesn't mean it's actually Celtic; a decorative motif is a decorative motif and can appear independently in different cultures. And as Kass notes elsewhere, its presence on a wall has absolutely no bearing to anything anyone might wear without evidence that they used the motif in clothing too. >>>> I think I've seen that painting too, Robin. If we're referring to the same one, it looked to me like scrolling vinework and was more Italian in flavour than Celtic. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 11:08:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KF8tIO016496 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:08:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KF4T76013585 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:04:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KF4ROj004254; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:04:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt22.cluster1.charter.net (remt22.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KF4OOj004190 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:04:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt22.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 166836511 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:03:24 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6C6BEF.A543F02@charter.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:02:07 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <001201c37f7f$445214f0$6848ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C9710FF125E2C22F05F4A293" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C9710FF125E2C22F05F4A293 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good information, Kass. Ok I have some information to get going with. I must now find the proper leine and jacket style. The brat is the least of my worries. I could go either way with its shape, be it semi or rectangular, but I would probably decorate it a bit, perhaps a deep fringe. I will more than likely choose a lighter wool than was necessary in the mountains of the Scottish highlands, though. :o) Scarborough Faire runs for two months here and is darn hot by the time it's over on Labor Day. The subtle hint I'm getting is to also focus on fabrics that would have been pricey in the period and colours that were costly to reproduce. I assume that the following items might be in this category: fine linens and wool, tooled leather garments, silk thread construction and embroidery, ribbon decoration, and a spattering of silver or gold jewelry (another topic), and a cool looking period belt. Most fellows back then went about armed, but I'm foregoing the period weaponry until the garb is there (is my 12 gauge shotgun period?) Go to mistythicket.com and look at the shirts she has there for sale. I'm not saying that I would buy this one, but is the style of shirt for the mid 1500's that you were eluding to? This one doesn't have the baggy sleeves that the kern and hunters were wearing. It would just need to be a knee length or longer version. The link is http://www.mistythicket.com/mens/shirts/morgan.html. I'm also sending a jpeg of a well to do guy with an interesting shirt on. Ah, I love research. Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. --------------C9710FF125E2C22F05F4A293 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------C9710FF125E2C22F05F4A293-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 11:26:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KFQfIO016529 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:26:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFMO76014199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:22:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFMMOj010843; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:22:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFMJOj010782 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:22:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from c59303a (12-238-186-49.client.attbi.com[12.238.186.49]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20030920152214013007ldnde>; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:22:14 +0000 Message-ID: <010e01c37f8a$f410c520$31baee0c@c59303a> From: "chiara" To: "h-costume" References: Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:13:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] Re: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] did Leonardo invent high heels? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com That like only works if you have a membership to the newspaper. Just send us the article please. Chiara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: ; ; ; ; Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 9:07 AM Subject: [Italian Renaissance Costuming] did Leonardo invent high heels? : This links to an article in today's New York Times which credits : Leonardo daVinci as the (probable) inventor of high heels. Did he? : Were there any high heels in evidence prior to the 16C? Costume : scholars? Fashionistas? Anyone? Bueller? : : http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/opinion/20SAT4.html?th : : : ------------------------ Yahoo! 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Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ : _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 11:35:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KFZFIO016570 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:35:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFUm76014451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:30:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFUlOj013571; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:30:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFUjOj013554 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:30:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.104]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:29:18 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:30:57 -0400 Message-ID: <002101c37f8c$30efd980$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6C6BEF.A543F02@charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Your selections are sounding good, Joe. I just want to comment on one thing: >>>> Go to mistythicket.com and look at the shirts she has there for sale. I'm not saying that I would buy this one, but is the style of shirt for the mid 1500's that you were eluding to? This one doesn't have the baggy sleeves that the kern and hunters were wearing. It would just need to be a knee length or longer version. >>>> The neckline of this shirt is very weird. It starts out as the standard slit neckline that's been around for centuries, but it appears to be closed with cord wrapped around two shirt buttons. Very strange. Looks Native American to me. And all that blanket stitching along the edges is just icky. If she sells a completely plain one and you buy the linen version (or make a similar one), yeah. But I think this would be better: http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/rogart.html >>>> I'm also sending a jpeg of a well to do guy with an interesting shirt on. >>> I don't' think your JPEG made it to the list, Joe. I didn't get it in any case. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 11:44:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KFihIO016598 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:44:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFeD76015030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:40:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFeCOj017360; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:40:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFe8Oj017251 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:40:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.104]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:38:40 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] did Leonardo invent high heels? Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:40:20 -0400 Message-ID: <002201c37f8d$802d13e0$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <20030920.075516.2044.0.Cley@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If patens are what they're talking about, they've been around for much longer than da Vinci. They began as a way to keep your feet out of the mud. They became fashion items in Italy in the 16th century (as cioppines) when they became extraordinarily high and elaborately made. But poor people have been wearing high wooden clogs to keep themselves from sinking in the mud for centuries. =) Kass On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:07:15 -0500 Allison writes: > This links to an article in today's New York Times which credits > Leonardo daVinci as the (probable) inventor of high heels. Did he? > > Were there any high heels in evidence prior to the 16C? Costume > scholars? Fashionistas? Anyone? Bueller? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 11:45:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KFj3IO016601 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:45:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFe17A014995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:40:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFccOj016644; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:38:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFcZOj016594 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:38:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m149.in-tch.com [216.166.191.149]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8KFIEp01928 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:18:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6C74FD.D57D7254@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:40:46 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Kass's patterns, 16th-17th c. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I googled for them, and found several sites very easily. Here are a few: http://www3.sympatico.ca/gousse-matte/fdl/Patterns.html http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_18.html --sue, who agrees with the "look" looking good, at the least! Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: > > You're right. I'd totally forgotten about those. I don't know how accurate > construction is, but the look is good. She even has an early 13th century > pattern, a period of clothing that's usually skipped over in pattern lines > and history books. (They usually jump from bliaut to sideless surcote, > forgetting the style that comes just in between) > > It's Fleur de Lyse, with an "e", though, in case you're planning on Googling > it. And the best thing is they're really close to Montreal! I can even buy > them in French (my native language - it's always easier, even if I'm > bilingual). And CDN dollars and low shipping for me when I decide to buy > some :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 11:53:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KFrPIO016620 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:53:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFn076015412 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:49:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFmwOj020696; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:48:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KFmtOj020652 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:48:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m149.in-tch.com [216.166.191.149]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8KFSYp05317 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:28:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6C776A.D71B5D73@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:51:06 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] the shoulder roll question References: <20030920024256.85740.qmail@web80101.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Ooooh! Nice dress! --sue, currently resisting all 16th c. temptations Jennifer Fleury wrote: > > I'm glad someone recommended the Jean Hunnisett book, I was going to myself as well. Here is a picture of a gown I collaborated on which was made from the same portrait (sorry about the lighting in the pic! better pics coming in October). We used the Jean Hunnisett pattern "portrait of an unknown girl" and simply didn't do the panes and replaced the inverted scallop edging with rounded tabs to bring it closer to the portrait. There is no stuffing. The roll consists of a cotton backing, 2 layers of ballerina net, and the layer of silk. The net and silk are gathered on both edges and mounted to the cotton. It is incredibly lightweight and while it holds its shape well, it also is wonderfully "smushable" if needs be! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 12:08:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KG8RIO016660 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:08:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KG4D76015955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:04:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KG4Bwf026413; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:04:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt30.cluster1.charter.net (remt30.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.40]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KG48wf026309 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:04:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt30.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 34166327 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:03:59 -0400 Message-ID: <3F6C7A0D.E59CAB4A@charter.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:02:21 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine References: <002101c37f8c$30efd980$6848ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kass, I agree. The embroidery about the neck is odd, and the button seems out of period a bit. I had a feeling you were referring to this style of shirt, which somewhat resembles the Rogart shirt. I would do a standard open keyhole neck with no button, and the length would be past the knee to allow for a bit of blousing and ease of movement. ...and what do ya know, you sent me a link right to the Rogart shirt. I might be able to find someone too pull it off out of fine saffron linen if I try. Also, how do you feel about it being sewn together with contrasting silk thread, perhaps red or green? There is historical evidence of that, including in King James' own shirts. Cheers, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 12:25:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KGPwIO016691 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:25:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGLU76016656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:21:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGLTwf003129; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:21:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGLPwf003114 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:21:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.104]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:19:58 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:21:36 -0400 Message-ID: <002801c37f93$44f96160$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6C7A0D.E59CAB4A@charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8KGLPwf003114 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I agree. The embroidery about the neck is odd, and the button seems out of period a bit. I had a feeling you were referring to this style of shirt, which somewhat resembles the Rogart shirt. I would do a standard open keyhole neck with no button, and the length would be past the knee to allow for a bit of blousing and ease of movement. >>>> That works. Although to portray a kern/gallowglass, I would wear a léine with dangling sleeves. >>>> ...and what do ya know, you sent me a link right to the Rogart shirt. I might be able to find someone too pull it off out of fine saffron linen if I try. Also, how do you feel about it being sewn together with contrasting silk thread, perhaps red or green? There is historical evidence of that, including in King James' own shirts. >>>> I think that would be perfect, Joe. The JPEG you sent appears to be a 19th century representation of what a Highland chief would have worn. I wouldn't trust this picture. But I think you have a good mental picture of what you want now. Wear it in Good Health, Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 12:37:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KGbxIO016740 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:37:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGXD76017107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:33:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGXCwf007523; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:33:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGX7wg007488 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:33:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8KGX9N2002920 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:33:09 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8KGX9iY002918 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:33:09 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] did Leonardo invent high heels? Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:33:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309201233.08679.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Saturday 20 September 2003 10:07 am, Allison wrote: > This links to an article in today's New York Times which credits > Leonardo daVinci as the (probable) inventor of high heels. Did he? > Were there any high heels in evidence prior to the 16C? Costume > scholars? Fashionistas? Anyone? Bueller? > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/opinion/20SAT4.html?th I note that the piece came from the Times' Op Ed page, which means it need have no more support than that it's something the editorialist thought he read somewhere. I can't recall seeing high heels in Western Europe before the 16thc. Even if I'm correct, and the 16th c was the first time high heels were worn in Europe, that doesn't mean Leonardo invented them. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 12:42:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KGgJIO016748 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:42:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGc076017265 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:38:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGbxwf009427; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:37:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGbuwg009403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:37:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8KGbwN2002947 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:37:59 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8KGbwfj002945 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:37:58 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:37:58 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <001801c37f87$1ec69870$6848ccd1@Kass> In-Reply-To: <001801c37f87$1ec69870$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309201237.58503.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Saturday 20 September 2003 10:54 am, Kass McGann wrote: > Though I did once see some Celtic-type knotwork in, hmm, either tiling > or > wall paint on a surface in the background behind a portrait of Henry > VIII. > It would take me a while to track down the portrait again and refresh my > memory. Doesn't mean it's actually Celtic; a decorative motif is a > decorative motif and can appear independently in different cultures. And > as Kass notes elsewhere, its presence on a wall has absolutely no > bearing > to anything anyone might wear without evidence that they used the motif > in > clothing too. > > I think I've seen that painting too, Robin. If we're referring to the > same one, it looked to me like scrolling vinework and was more Italian > in flavour than Celtic. If anyone can track down a URL to a picture of the portrait you and Robin are talking about, Kass, I for one would really appreciate seeing it. Because to me at least, "scrolling vinework" and "Celtic-type knotwork" look very different, and I'm not convinced that you and Robin are talking about the same piece. However, for what it's worth there are certainly motifs that show up in vastly different cultures and places (on textiles and elsewhere). Swastikas and the eight-pointed star often see on Ukrainian eggs and embroidery leap to mind. For example, I believe there is a surviving piece of textile from Hallstatt with the swastika embroidered on it, and the motif also shows up on Chinese lotus shoes. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 12:47:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KGl9IO016758 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:47:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGgt76017477 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:42:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGgswf011420; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:42:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGgqwg011396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:42:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8KGgsN2002998 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:42:54 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8KGgsSh002996 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:42:54 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] did Leonardo invent high heels? Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:42:53 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <002201c37f8d$802d13e0$6848ccd1@Kass> In-Reply-To: <002201c37f8d$802d13e0$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309201242.53856.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Saturday 20 September 2003 11:40 am, Kass McGann wrote: > If patens are what they're talking about, they've been around for much > longer than da Vinci. They began as a way to keep your feet out of the > mud. They became fashion items in Italy in the 16th century (as > cioppines) when they became extraordinarily high and elaborately made. > But poor people have been wearing high wooden clogs to keep themselves > from sinking in the mud for centuries. =) True, but given the source of the comments (an Op-Ed column, for God's sake), I suspect heels that are part of the shoe were intended. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 12:50:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KGo3IO016763 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:50:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGjh76017601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:45:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGjgwf012668; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:45:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGjbwf012630 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:45:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.104]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:44:11 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:45:50 -0400 Message-ID: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <200309201237.58503.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If anyone can track down a URL to a picture of the portrait you and Robin are talking about, Kass, I for one would really appreciate seeing it. Because to me at least, "scrolling vinework" and "Celtic-type knotwork" look very different, and I'm not convinced that you and Robin are talking about the same piece. >>>> Could be. Robin? Do you have a copy of this picture somewhere? >>>> However, for what it's worth there are certainly motifs that show up in vastly different cultures and places (on textiles and elsewhere). Swastikas and the eight-pointed star often see on Ukrainian eggs and embroidery leap to mind. For example, I believe there is a surviving piece of textile from Hallstatt with the swastika embroidered on it, and the motif also shows up on Chinese lotus shoes. >>>> Same thing with crosses and six-pointed stars and even woven plaids. Simple motifs are everywhere. But I don't particularly classify Celtic knotwork as simple. I think its complexity rather defines it. Anyone who's drawn it will know what I'm talking about. In any case, I get your point. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 13:04:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KH4MIO016814 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:04:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGxw76018205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:59:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGxu2B018449; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:59:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KGxs2B018427 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:59:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.104]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:58:27 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] did Leonardo invent high heels? Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:00:06 -0400 Message-ID: <003401c37f98$a57cc540$6848ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <200309201242.53856.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com True, but given the source of the comments (an Op-Ed column, for God's sake), I suspect heels that are part of the shoe were intended. >>>> I couldn't see the article. Did they show any pictures of what Leonardo's supposed invention? Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 14:02:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KI2QIO017033 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:02:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KHw476020761 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:58:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KHw13G011617; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:58:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KHw03G011607 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:58:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from user-33qtkci.dialup.mindspring.com ([199.174.209.146] helo=pavilion) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A0lzX-0001CN-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:57:57 -0700 Message-ID: <002801c37fa1$1e44e680$92d1aec7@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F6B0DD5.8AD7CBAF@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:00:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sue Clemenger wrote: To: Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 7:08 AM Subject: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... > NPR has been doing little interview pieces all week about different > aspects of modern fashion. Today, they were talking about shoes. They > actually interviewed a (female) podiatrist from NYC who will perform > surgery on feet so that they fitter better into expensive designer > shoes. Including things like toe-shortening! Ouch! They'd have to cut my entire little toe and the bone that attaches it for me to have catwalk feet, far too wide as they are, but perfect if I only had four toes! The Wall Street Journal also had a similar article a couple of weeks ago and they mentioned collagen injections for the balls of the feet to get you some extra padding for stilettos. Don't know why someone wouldn't just use a sticky foot pad, it wouldn't even show! Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 14:26:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KIQAIO017107 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:26:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KINE76021847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:23:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KINB3G021576; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:23:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KIN83H021533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:23:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8KITDcL002875 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:29:13 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F6C9B37.80102@thibault.org> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:23:51 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OOP: Shades of Cinderella's step sisters.... References: <3F6B0DD5.8AD7CBAF@in-tch.com> <002801c37fa1$1e44e680$92d1aec7@pavilion> In-Reply-To: <002801c37fa1$1e44e680$92d1aec7@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Lisa Sinervo wrote: > collagen injections for the balls of the feet > to get you some extra padding for stilettos. Don't know why someone > wouldn't just use a sticky foot pad, it wouldn't even show! Or wear shoes that don't require body modification! I think it's quite amusing that the modern world in general* sees corsets as a torture implement of bygone days that we've "grown beyond" as a culture, but thinks skinny, pointy, high shoes are beautiful. cv *not this list of course! -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent The Prince looked down at the motionless form of Sleeping Beauty, wondering how her supple lips would feel against his own and contemplating whether or not an Altoid was strong enough to stand up against the kind of morning breath only a hundred year's nap could create. -- Lynne Sella, one of the winners of the Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 14:59:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KIxUIO017183 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:59:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KIwi76023177 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:58:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KIwamQ005446; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:58:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rhenium.btinternet.com (rhenium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KIwXmQ005417 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:58:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host81-129-95-120.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.129.95.120] helo=dan) by rhenium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 1A0mwB-00011J-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:58:31 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c37fa9$410d5820$785f8151@dan> From: "Stevie Gamble" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001901c37ef7$27b71e40$7348ccd1@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:59:01 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kass wrote: > I don't know if you frequent the Armour Archive (armourarchive.org), but > they had a discussion on the Research and Authenticity board this week > about online fabric sources. Some good stuff there. I advise you to > check it out. You are a wicked, wicked woman. The way you lure poor, innocent readers into spending 5 hours having a quick look round when they only went there to check out the online fabric sources... And I haven't even found those yet... best wishes Stevie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 15:39:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KJdfIO017290 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:39:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KJd176024772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:39:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KJcxmQ021182; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:38:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from balin.grics.net (balin.grics.net [64.40.67.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KJcumQ021153 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:38:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grics.net (66-79-58-66.dsl.dixnil.grics.net [66.79.58.66]) by balin.grics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143ED42035 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:38:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3F6CADE6.6000502@grics.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:43:34 -0500 From: "H. Law" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> In-Reply-To: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Don't remember who, but someone said the Celtic knotwork in the Henry 8 portrait was probably a conscious thing connected with henry's welsh ancestry. I've never seen "Celtic Knotwork" on pre-Henry celtic/gaelic garb before, but some Norse stuff had similar work. often animal-interlace. (Those cute little eely things in the book of kells are a great -*legitimate*- excuse for the really intense knotwork - just stick a little head on one end, taper off the other one for a tail and away you go!:-P ) There is also the Spanish-Moorish textiles where the interlace motif is allovertheplace. The Book of Kells-type stuff is thought to have arrived through traveling early-xtian monks who had access to Coptic manuscripts in Egypt, where the moorish and african influence on design was strong. If you're looking for interlace designs on clothes, try a Nordic influence, or someone who has travelled to Spain. (Spain would also open up allover designs for you to use.) There is, or was, a publication by someone in SCA (actually several of them!) that showed some embroidery from Welsh garb; you could check out the Complete Anachronist series on http://www.sca.org , and other SCA publications and probly find some more. FWIW.... Heather L (s.k.a. Edwinna, another Celtic-knotwork doodler looking for an exccuse:-) Kass McGann wrote: >If anyone can track down a URL to a picture of the portrait you and >Robin are talking about, Kass, I for one would really appreciate seeing >it. Because to me at least, "scrolling vinework" and "Celtic-type >knotwork" look very different, and I'm not convinced that you and Robin >are talking about the same piece. > > >Could be. Robin? Do you have a copy of this picture somewhere? > > >However, for what it's worth there are certainly motifs that show up in >vastly different cultures and places (on textiles and elsewhere). >Swastikas and the eight-pointed star often see on Ukrainian eggs and >embroidery leap to mind. For example, I believe there is a surviving >piece of textile from Hallstatt with the swastika embroidered on it, and >the motif also shows up on Chinese lotus shoes. > > >Same thing with crosses and six-pointed stars and even woven plaids. >Simple motifs are everywhere. > >But I don't particularly classify Celtic knotwork as simple. I think >its complexity rather defines it. Anyone who's drawn it will know what >I'm talking about. > >In any case, I get your point. > >Kass > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 16:03:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KK3BIO017362 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:03:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KK2U76025725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:02:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KK2SJg029486; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:02:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KK2PJg029457 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:02:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.67]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:00:58 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The 16th century leine Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:02:38 -0400 Message-ID: <000301c37fb2$252565e0$4348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <000601c37fa9$410d5820$785f8151@dan> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Stevie wrote: You are a wicked, wicked woman. The way you lure poor, innocent readers into spending 5 hours having a quick look round when they only went there to check out the online fabric sources... And I haven't even found those yet... >>>> I live but to serve... ;) Enjoy! Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 16:03:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KK3aIO017366 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:03:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KK2q76025739 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:02:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KK2qJg029605; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:02:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KK2YJg029514 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:02:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip218.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.218]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA826DBC3 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:02:32 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:38:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Message-ID: <3F6C4A3D.10269.326B87A3@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> References: <200309201237.58503.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > But I don't particularly classify Celtic knotwork as simple. I think > its complexity rather defines it. Anyone who's drawn it will know > what I'm talking about. What's interesting is that there was a redoing of "Celtic knotwork" in the 16th century. There are some clear differences in it when it comes to the actual execution (which are quite clear if you've seen both. The way most modern people want to do "Celtic knotwork" tends to be more the 16th century way of coloring it especially.) You can see it in the blackwork and embroidery of the time. http://www.artchive.com/artchive/H/holbein/holbein_henry_viii.jpg.html http://www.abcgallery.com/H/holbein/holbein59.html You can also see it in the manuscripts of the time (although I couldn't find any pics of these on the web) such as the Hours of Alfonso of Aragon, Duke of Calabria (c.1480) (which can be found in _The Book of Hours_ by John Harthan.) If I had more time I probably could find more examples. They aren't exactly the same as the original "Celtic knotwork" but they were doing the "look at old things and try to imitate them" that we also tend to do. (Level of success in imitation depending on how much you are trying to do a reproduction as opposed to "inspiration".) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 16:27:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KKR4IO017455 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:27:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KKQN76026733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:26:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KKQMJg008997; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:26:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KKQJJh008971 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:26:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8KKQLN2003412 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:26:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8KKQLTL003410 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:26:21 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:26:21 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> <3F6CADE6.6000502@grics.net> In-Reply-To: <3F6CADE6.6000502@grics.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309201626.21321.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Saturday 20 September 2003 03:43 pm, H. Law wrote: > Don't remember who, but someone said the Celtic knotwork in the Henry 8 > portrait was probably a conscious thing connected with henry's welsh > ancestry. I've never seen "Celtic Knotwork" on pre-Henry celtic/gaelic > garb before, but some Norse stuff had similar work. often > animal-interlace. That's true, though the Norse stuff I've seen is pretty simplistic by comparison. I'm thinking in particular of the Mammen cloak. There's a picture of the find, and of a reproduction of it, on the Viking Answer Lady's site: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ [Click on the menu at the left side for "Daily Life" and, when you reach that page, the link for "Viking Clothing Ornamentation".] [snip] > Kass McGann wrote: Actually, I (Cathy Raymond) wrote the following in response to some of Kass's comments: > >If anyone can track down a URL to a picture of the portrait you and > >Robin are talking about, Kass, I for one would really appreciate seeing > >it. Because to me at least, "scrolling vinework" and "Celtic-type > >knotwork" look very different, and I'm not convinced that you and Robin > >are talking about the same piece. [snip] This one's also my comment-- > >However, for what it's worth there are certainly motifs that show up in > >vastly different cultures and places (on textiles and elsewhere). > >Swastikas and the eight-pointed star often see on Ukrainian eggs and > >embroidery leap to mind. For example, I believe there is a surviving > >piece of textile from Hallstatt with the swastika embroidered on it, and > >the motif also shows up on Chinese lotus shoes. [snip] -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 16:33:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KKX0IO017478 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:33:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KKWC76026981 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:32:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KKWBJg011210; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:32:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KKW8Jg011196 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:32:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.67]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:30:42 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:32:22 -0400 Message-ID: <000501c37fb6$4c238ec0$4348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6C4A3D.10269.326B87A3@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If I had more time I probably could find more examples. They aren't exactly the same as the original "Celtic knotwork" but they were doing the "look at old things and try to imitate them" that we also tend to do. (Level of success in imitation depending on how much you are trying to do a reproduction as opposed to "inspiration".) >>>> I'm more inclined to see this as an imitation of Italian decorative scrollwork than Celtic knotwork. There is nothing Celtic or knotty about the portraits you've shown. I see a bunch of interlaced vines. Not knotwork. I'm talking about the Celtic knotwork that appears in manuscript illuminations and stone carvings. There is no evidence of that motif in embroidery of any era that I have ever seen. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 16:51:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KKpHIO017555 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:51:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KKoX76027758 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:50:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KKoWJg018053; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:50:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thorin.grics.net (thorin.grics.net [64.40.67.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KKoRJg018024 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:50:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grics.net (66-79-58-66.dsl.dixnil.grics.net [66.79.58.66]) by thorin.grics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123DC422D0 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:50:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3F6CBEAA.7060403@grics.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:55:06 -0500 From: "H. Law" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> <3F6CADE6.6000502@grics.net> <200309201626.21321.cathy@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <200309201626.21321.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] OT Who said who said...(was Celtic knotwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sorry about that, I think my computer mixed up the quotes - I just hit Reply and started rambling. No offense was intended :-) Edwinna Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: >On Saturday 20 September 2003 03:43 pm, H. Law wrote: > > >>Don't remember who, but someone said the Celtic knotwork in the Henry 8 >>portrait was probably a conscious thing connected with henry's welsh >>ancestry. I've never seen "Celtic Knotwork" on pre-Henry celtic/gaelic >>garb before, but some Norse stuff had similar work. often >>animal-interlace. >> >> > >That's true, though the Norse stuff I've seen is pretty simplistic by >comparison. I'm thinking in particular of the Mammen cloak. There's a >picture of the find, and of a reproduction of it, on the Viking Answer Lady's >site: > >http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ > >[Click on the menu at the left side for "Daily Life" and, when you reach that >page, the link for "Viking Clothing Ornamentation".] > >[snip] > > > >>Kass McGann wrote: >> >> > >Actually, I (Cathy Raymond) wrote the following in response to some of Kass's >comments: > > > >>>If anyone can track down a URL to a picture of the portrait you and >>>Robin are talking about, Kass, I for one would really appreciate seeing >>>it. Because to me at least, "scrolling vinework" and "Celtic-type >>>knotwork" look very different, and I'm not convinced that you and Robin >>>are talking about the same piece. >>> >>> > >[snip] > >This one's also my comment-- > > > >>>However, for what it's worth there are certainly motifs that show up in >>>vastly different cultures and places (on textiles and elsewhere). >>>Swastikas and the eight-pointed star often see on Ukrainian eggs and >>>embroidery leap to mind. For example, I believe there is a surviving >>>piece of textile from Hallstatt with the swastika embroidered on it, and >>>the motif also shows up on Chinese lotus shoes. >>> >>> > >[snip] > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 17:53:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KLr6IO017732 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:53:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KLqX76000754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:52:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KLqU8X013533; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:52:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KLqP8Y013446 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:52:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8KLqSN2003565 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:52:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8KLqS8w003563 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:52:28 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT Who said who said...(was Celtic knotwork Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:52:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> <200309201626.21321.cathy@thyrsus.com> <3F6CBEAA.7060403@grics.net> In-Reply-To: <3F6CBEAA.7060403@grics.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309201752.28089.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Saturday 20 September 2003 04:55 pm, H. Law wrote: > Sorry about that, I think my computer mixed up the quotes - I just hit > Reply and started rambling. No offense was intended :-) > > Edwinna > I wasn't offended at all; I just wanted to make sure nobody else got confused as the thread wore on. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 18:29:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KMTeIO017812 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:29:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KMT676002071 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:29:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KMT4Zu028431; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:29:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KMT2Zu028417 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:29:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h8KMT2Kx026517 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [140.142.182.187] (cs202-84.fsmodem.washington.edu [140.142.182.187]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h8KMSpwE013216 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:28:55 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:29:19 -0700 From: Agnes Gawne To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200309201800.h8KI0Z3I012780@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Here's the text of the article for those who couldn't read it on the NYTimes site. September 20, 2003 N Y Times Editorial/OP ED When Pretty Shoes Turn Cruel here has been a lot of weather going on in New York this year, most of it wet. Not to mention the big blackout. What all these things had in common was the fact that it was almost impossible to deal with them in high-heeled shoes. The fault, it seems, lies with Leonardo da Vinci. Though the evidence is not conclusive, some historians believe that Leonardo, the original Renaissance man, may have invented that most exquisite and ubiquitous of torture devices, the high heel. The height-enhancing shoes were an immediate winner with European royalty, both men and women. Centuries later, it's everyday women who are footing the bill. When the blackout occurred, shoe stores closed along with most other businesses, and women without flat, accommodating shoes faced a painful choice: risk blisters and other ailments while looking fabulous in Jimmy Choos, Manolo Blahniks or less-heralded push-up shoes, or pound the pavement in bare or stocking feet. You cannot walk miles on squeezed and compacted tiptoes. Neither can you leap across a very large puddle in the more glamorous versions of the high heel, and we have spent a great deal of time with puddles this year. There have actually, when you think of it, been a relatively small number of days that didn't cry out for second-best sneakers, or maybe designer galoshes. Having a pair of sensible shoes is like eating spinach, a commendable idea. But how often does a bowl of greens win out over a bowl of ice cream? High heels are an indulgence, one best enjoyed while sitting down, preferably in nonemergency situations. The Department of Homeland Security advises that "sturdy shoes" be included in the survival kits we have all been urged to assemble, but that may leave too much to the wearer's discretion. The shoes that will carry a person comfortably through any situation not involving a salad fork are bound to be pedestrian, in every sense of the word. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 18:38:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KMcMIO017843 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:38:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KMbm76002396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:37:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KMblZu002403; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:37:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KMbiZu002369 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:37:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from comcast.net (pcp456786pcs.shklfd01.ar.comcast.net[68.51.39.237](misconfigured sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20030920223739013007mbe1e>; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:37:39 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:35:05 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Allison To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200309201633.h8KGXOwg007636@net.indra.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] NY Times high heels op ed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Saturday, September 20, 2003, at 11:33 AM, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > On Saturday 20 September 2003 10:07 am, Allison wrote: >> This links to an article in today's New York Times which credits >> Leonardo daVinci as the (probable) inventor of high heels. Did he? >> Were there any high heels in evidence prior to the 16C? Costume >> scholars? Fashionistas? Anyone? Bueller? >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/opinion/20SAT4.html?th > > I note that the piece came from the Times' Op Ed page, which means it > need > have no more support than that it's something the editorialist thought > he > read somewhere. > > I can't recall seeing high heels in Western Europe before the 16thc. > Even if > I'm correct, and the 16th c was the first time high heels were worn in > Europe, that doesn't mean Leonardo invented them. > > Cathy Raymond > Here's the NY Times article, dated September 20, 2003. I don't subscribe, but am on their "email me the headlines for free" list. There is no name on the article, which tells me it's an editorial staff op-ed, not a "guest" opinion. I wonder if their "research" included pictures, and whether they mean pattens or actual heels. Big difference in pattens/platform shoes/clogs and stiletto heels! I'd bet big money this writer has no idea, they just looked at the first reference they could find to get a historical angle on a subject that seems to be hot these days. Allison > When Pretty Shoes Turn Cruel > > There has been a lot of weather going on in New York this year, most > of it wet. Not to mention the big blackout. What all these things had > in common was the fact that it was almost impossible to deal with them > in high-heeled shoes. > > The fault, it seems, lies with Leonardo da Vinci. Though the evidence > is not conclusive, some historians believe that Leonardo, the original > Renaissance man, may have invented that most exquisite and ubiquitous > of torture devices, the high heel. > > The height-enhancing shoes were an immediate winner with European > royalty, both men and women. Centuries later, it's everyday women who > are footing the bill. When the blackout occurred, shoe stores closed > along with most other businesses, and women without flat, > accommodating shoes faced a painful choice: risk blisters and other > ailments while looking fabulous in Jimmy Choos, Manolo Blahniks or > less-heralded push-up shoes, or pound the pavement in bare or stocking > feet. > > You cannot walk miles on squeezed and compacted tiptoes. Neither can > you leap across a very large puddle in the more glamorous versions of > the high heel, and we have spent a great deal of time with puddles > this year. There have actually, when you think of it, been a > relatively small number of days that didn't cry out for second-best > sneakers, or maybe designer galoshes. Having a pair of sensible shoes > is like eating spinach, a commendable idea. But how often does a bowl > of greens win out over a bowl of ice cream? High heels are an > indulgence, one best enjoyed while sitting down, preferably in > nonemergency situations. > > The Department of Homeland Security advises that "sturdy shoes" be > included in the survival kits we have all been urged to assemble, but > that may leave too much to the wearer's discretion. The shoes that > will carry a person comfortably through any situation not involving a > salad fork are bound to be pedestrian, in every sense of the word. > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 19:05:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KN5KIO017888 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:05:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KN4d76003797 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:04:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KN4bae013286; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:04:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KN4Yae013258 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:04:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.72]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:48:14 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] NY Times high heels op ed Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:49:55 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c37fc9$83379d80$4348ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I wonder if their "research" included pictures, and whether they mean pattens or actual heels. Big difference in pattens/platform shoes/clogs and stiletto heels! I'd bet big money this writer has no idea, they just looked at the first reference they could find to get a historical angle on a subject that seems to be hot these days. >>>> Yeah. From the author's description that these shoes were "height-enhancing", I seeing the cioppines worn by Venetian courtesans in my head. But I'm willing to bet that we're talking about good o'l keep-you-hems-out-of-the-mud pattens here... Funny thing, isn't it, writing an op-ed letter like it's a real article. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 19:09:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8KN9pIO017903 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:09:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KN9D76004065 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:09:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KN9Cae015095; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:09:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8KN99ae015057 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:09:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a223.in-tch.com [66.62.107.23]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8KMmmp27668 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:48:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6CDE98.686DF8CE@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:11:20 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thanks, Agnes. --sue Agnes Gawne wrote: > > Here's the text of the article for those who couldn't read it on the NYTimes > site. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 21:41:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L1fbIO018284 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:41:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L1es76009464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:40:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L1enSe010295; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:40:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from balin.grics.net (balin.grics.net [64.40.67.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L1ekSe010283 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:40:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grics.net (66-79-58-66.dsl.dixnil.grics.net [66.79.58.66]) by balin.grics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8E04163E for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:40:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3F6D02B5.3020102@grics.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:45:25 -0500 From: "H. Law" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm wondering if this writer even knew about pattens, clogs etc. Anyone know when the high heels with the *toe on the ground* came in? I'd bet dinner (*), but if they think da Vinci invented *those* I'd like to see some doc. I wonder about writing an op-ed letter of our own, asking if the writer of this thing has doc, We'd Be Very Interested To Know Edwinna, not waiting up for this one (*) but you'd have to come out here to collect it ;-> Agnes Gawne wrote: >Here's the text of the article for those who couldn't read it on the NYTimes >site. > > >September 20, 2003 >N Y Times >Editorial/OP ED > >When Pretty Shoes Turn Cruel > >here has been a lot of weather going on in New York this year, most of it >wet. Not to mention the big blackout. What all these things had in common >was the fact that it was almost impossible to deal with them in high-heeled >shoes. > >The fault, it seems, lies with Leonardo da Vinci. Though the evidence is not >conclusive, some historians believe that Leonardo, the original Renaissance >man, may have invented that most exquisite and ubiquitous of torture >devices, the high heel. > >The height-enhancing shoes were an immediate winner with European royalty, >both men and women. Centuries later, it's everyday women who are footing the >bill. When the blackout occurred, shoe stores closed along with most other >businesses, and women without flat, accommodating shoes faced a painful >choice: risk blisters and other ailments while looking fabulous in Jimmy >Choos, Manolo Blahniks or less-heralded push-up shoes, or pound the pavement >in bare or stocking feet. > >You cannot walk miles on squeezed and compacted tiptoes. Neither can you >leap across a very large puddle in the more glamorous versions of the high >heel, and we have spent a great deal of time with puddles this year. There >have actually, when you think of it, been a relatively small number of days >that didn't cry out for second-best sneakers, or maybe designer galoshes. >Having a pair of sensible shoes is like eating spinach, a commendable idea. >But how often does a bowl of greens win out over a bowl of ice cream? High >heels are an indulgence, one best enjoyed while sitting down, preferably in >nonemergency situations. > >The Department of Homeland Security advises that "sturdy shoes" be included >in the survival kits we have all been urged to assemble, but that may leave >too much to the wearer's discretion. The shoes that will carry a person >comfortably through any situation not involving a salad fork are bound to be >pedestrian, in every sense of the word. > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 20 23:49:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L3nDIO019806 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:49:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L3mf76014052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:48:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L3md6K024141; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:48:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L3mZ6L024088 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:48:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from comcast.net (pcp456786pcs.shklfd01.ar.comcast.net[68.51.39.237](misconfigured sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20030921034832013003ucgpe>; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:48:32 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:45:58 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Allison To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200309210141.h8L1fUSf010506@net.indra.com> Message-Id: <1CB7B8B4-EBE6-11D7-B8B5-000393D446D6@comcast.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [h-cost] NY Times Op Ed "article" response X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I wonder about writing an op-ed letter of our own, asking if the writer > of this thing has doc, We'd Be Very Interested To Know Do it, Edwinna! If you'll write it, I'll be among those who sign it. As one of those who are "Interested To Know" I prefer FACTS in my newspaper "articles" - I can find plenty of pop culture trivia and/or speculation in magazines. Allison P. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 00:13:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L4DtIO019974 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:13:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4DJ76014978 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:13:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4DGnt002621; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:13:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web12008.mail.yahoo.com (web12008.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.216]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8L4DEnt002610 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:13:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030921041314.46279.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.221.225.218] by web12008.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:13:14 PDT Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:13:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Cascio Michael To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] Knotwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Just got back to the computer so I did mean knotwork as in twining patterns. I'm used to seeing it as a skirt decoration on ACW dress and sleeve decoration so I hadn't really considered the zoomorphic and anamorphic styles of decoration. The quilting patterns are also just repeated cable sections with the occasional fiddly-bit at the corner but no dogs heads, etc. Is there someplace that has period embroidery patterns besides blackwork? I cannot, really cannot draw at all, and I can't look at a book of emblems and figure out what stitches to use or even how dense of a stitch to use for white on white texture. I do seem to remember seeing twining patterns in the backgrounds of some of the portraits but I'm not sure I would use furnishing patterns as good documentation for garment decoration. Modern inspiration is fair game but I was hoping to do some chain stitch knotwork and was looking to see what time and place I needed to be for it to be period. Thanks again and fascinating discussion. Cassandra __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 00:28:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L4S8IO020011 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:28:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4Qc76015359 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:26:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4Qant006720; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:26:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4QXnt006700 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:26:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11157 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:48:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:48:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork In-Reply-To: <200309201237.58503.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Me: > > Though I did once see some Celtic-type knotwork in, hmm, either tiling > > or > > wall paint on a surface in the background behind a portrait of Henry > > VIII. Kass: > > I think I've seen that painting too, Robin. If we're referring to the > > same one, it looked to me like scrolling vinework and was more Italian > > in flavour than Celtic. Catherine: > If anyone can track down a URL to a picture of the portrait you and > Robin are talking about, Kass, I for one would really appreciate > seeing it. Because to me at least, "scrolling vinework" and > "Celtic-type knotwork" look very different, and I'm not convinced that > you and Robin are talking about the same piece. I've been out all day and will be out all day tomorrow, so I can't try digging up the image now, but I wouldn't describe what I remember as "scrolling" -- clearly interlaced, and I think it had corners to it, but I can't swear. I do remember thinking it very odd to see something that was clearly identical to what's normally taught as Celtic knotwork in that portrait, and wondering if it had political significance (as others have noted). No animal heads on it, though. But I would not consider interlaced lines to be "vinework" unless they had foliate details as well. I'll get to this when I can, but right now life is a higher priority... --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 00:44:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L4iQIO020060 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:44:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4hq76016247 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:43:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4hont012687; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:43:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4hmnt012669 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:43:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA11249 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:05:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:05:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Robin Netherton wrote: > I've been out all day and will be out all day tomorrow, so I can't try > digging up the image now... OK, I lied. I did take a few minutes just for a quick websearch. Try this: http://tudorhistory.org/henry8/henryred2.jpg Look at the curtain behind Henry. Knots, inside of something that could be called scrolling vines given their shape. Hmm, maybe we're both right. But that isn't the image I was thinking of -- the one I remember was straight and narrow, like a moulding along the edge of a panel. I may have the wrong king or something :-( In this one, he also has interlaced something-or-other on his oversleeve trim: http://tudorhistory.org/henry8/henry.jpg Still not the one I'm visualizing. Just another that looked useful for "knotwork motif" discussion. Clearly there was plenty of interlacing in the decorative vocabulary of the time. Doesn't mean it's Celtic. And it doesn't mean it was used in clothing, either, though the sleeve trim does suggest that it was fair game. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 00:46:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L4kfIO020068 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:46:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4k276016327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:46:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4k2nt013481; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:46:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L4jxnu013457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:46:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8L4k3N2004418 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:46:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8L4k3ag004416 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:46:03 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:46:03 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309210046.03329.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sunday 21 September 2003 12:48 am, Robin Netherton wrote: [snip] > I've been out all day and will be out all day tomorrow, so I can't try > digging up the image now, but I wouldn't describe what I remember as > "scrolling" -- clearly interlaced, and I think it had corners to it, but I > can't swear. I do remember thinking it very odd to see something that was > clearly identical to what's normally taught as Celtic knotwork in that > portrait, and wondering if it had political significance (as others have > noted). No animal heads on it, though. But I would not consider interlaced > lines to be "vinework" unless they had foliate details as well. > > I'll get to this when I can, but right now life is a higher priority... Understood. I wasn't even suggesting it should be you who should hunt the portrait up. (If somebody else found a suitable URL, they could always post it, and you could say later, "Yep, that's the one, all right" or "No, that's not it." I merely hope to have a chance to see the image for myself at some point. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 01:04:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L54iIO020122 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:04:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L53o76017019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:03:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L53miJ020535; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:03:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L53jiJ020482 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:03:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m71.in-tch.com [216.166.191.71]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8L4gVp11801 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:42:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6D3180.69A1373A@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:05:04 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork References: <20030921041314.46279.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Well, depending on how one does or doesn't define knotwork..., there are several extant examples of bands of embroidery (Egyptian) that look like simple knotwork or strapwork (i.e., linear elements in a repeated, intertwined/knotted pattern), done with, I think, split stitch. They're in my book on Islamic textiles and samplers. Very pretty, done in silk threads that were not spun, but thrown, and still shiny after all these centuries. I do not recall, unfortunately, seeing anything in the book as to what the authors supposed the strips were used on (e.g., clothing, or furnishings, or livestock equipment). And, of course, there are all the interlaced designs done in embroidery and goldwork that show up in 16th century clothing (not exactly knotwork in Kass' sense, I think, but certainly a cousin). More in the earlier part of the century than the later--at least, I associate it more with Tudor stuff than Elizabethan. There are a number of embroidery pattern books reprinted from period copies, that show lots of different strapwork patterns. Some of them are definitely vine-like. In my German book (it's packed somewhere, and I don't remember the exact title), there are just *pages* of samples done with different flowers and plants--some are quite recognizable as thistles, or roses, or columbines. So, there's my two late-night pence worth, to muddy up the topic some! --sue, off to bed to dream of embroidery.... Cascio Michael wrote: > > Just got back to the computer so > I did mean knotwork as in twining patterns. I'm used > to seeing it as a skirt decoration on ACW dress and > sleeve decoration so I hadn't really considered the > zoomorphic and anamorphic styles of decoration. The > quilting patterns are also just repeated cable > sections with the occasional fiddly-bit at the corner > but no dogs heads, etc. Is there someplace that has > period embroidery patterns besides blackwork? I > cannot, really cannot draw at all, and I can't look at > a book of emblems and figure out what stitches to use > or even how dense of a stitch to use for white on > white texture. > I do seem to remember seeing twining patterns in the > backgrounds of some of the portraits but I'm not sure > I would use furnishing patterns as good documentation > for garment decoration. Modern inspiration is fair > game but I was hoping to do some chain stitch knotwork > and was looking to see what time and place I needed to > be for it to be period. Thanks again and fascinating > discussion. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 01:12:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L5CWIO020177 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:12:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5Bp76017349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:11:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5BpiJ023432; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:11:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5BmiJ023413 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:11:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip181.126-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.126.181]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A7F6A6B3 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:07:42 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:09:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Message-ID: <3F6CD01D.24204.34767B8D@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000501c37fb6$4c238ec0$4348ccd1@Kass> References: <3F6C4A3D.10269.326B87A3@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I wrote: > If I had more time I probably could find more examples. They aren't > exactly the same as the original "Celtic knotwork" but they were doing > the "look at old things and try to imitate them" that we also tend to > do. (Level of success in imitation depending on how much you are > trying to do a reproduction as opposed to "inspiration".) Kass wrote: >>>> I'm > more inclined to see this as an imitation of Italian decorative > scrollwork than Celtic knotwork. There is nothing Celtic or knotty > about the portraits you've shown. I see a bunch of interlaced vines. > Not knotwork. > > I'm talking about the Celtic knotwork that appears in manuscript > illuminations and stone carvings. There is no evidence of that motif > in embroidery of any era that I have ever seen. There is more than one kind of Celtic knotwork, evidently. The Italianate scrollwork is being done at the same time and is part of the imitative work (which was not limited to England at the time). It has more in common with the zoomorphic Celtic knotwork that is seen in both the Book of Kells and the Lindisfarne Gospels than the Ian Bain style that most people think of. Yes, it is very viney, but it is also interlaced. I wish that they had on the web the 1539 "school of Holbein" portrait of Henry VIII. It has a distinctly knotwork pattern of the type you are probably thinking of. If you have James Laver's _Early Tudor 1485- 1558_ you'll find it on plate 33. It's done in gold on the red velvet of his coat. (It's one of the problems with this list in that if you can't find it on the web and no one has the same books to use as reference, it's hard to see what the other person is saying.) However, I don't believe it was done in the Celtic period as embroidery. Nor do I believe that the real Celts in the 16th century would have used the motifs such as you now see in the Irish clogger costumes that are worn modernly. It does not belie the imitative aspects of the 16th century embroideries and manuscripts with regard to taking motifs and ideas from the Celts (which they would not have seen nearly as frequently as we do. After all, they didn't have the plethora of books on the subject which we have so will hardly have the ability to do it as accurately as we would.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 01:29:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L5TVIO020227 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:29:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5Sp76017921 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:28:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5SoiJ029358; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:28:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp1.pacifier.net (smtp1.pacifier.net [64.255.237.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5SliJ029306 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:28:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip62.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.62]) by smtp1.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01FC6F6DF for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:28:45 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:26:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork Message-ID: <3F6CD423.15817.3486355E@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030921041314.46279.qmail@web12008.mail.yahoo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Is there someplace that has > period embroidery patterns besides blackwork? I > cannot, really cannot draw at all, and I can't look at > a book of emblems and figure out what stitches to use > or even how dense of a stitch to use for white on > white texture. Try looking at Margaret Abegg's _Apropos Patterns_. They have several patterns for use in lace, white work, black work, etc. They show examples as well. I like it because it shows the pattern from a period pattern book, then nearby actual lace or embroidery (sometimes in several styles) which were done off of the same design. (Biggest problem is that the book isn't done in a specific chronologic order but seems to jump back and forth between 16th and 18th century and everything in between. So, if you start running into something from the 18th century, don't stop reading. Keep going as there is probably more stuff you'd want past that.) They have a picture of Francois I with some knotwork on his sleeves, by the way. I'd forgotten about his portrait. http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/clouet/jean/francois.html Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 01:31:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L5VEIO020251 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:31:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5UZ76017975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:30:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5UZiJ029958; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:30:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5UXiJ029947 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:30:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip62.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.62]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5CC6DA2C for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:30:31 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:28:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Message-ID: <3F6CD471.23679.3487663D@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000501c37fb6$4c238ec0$4348ccd1@Kass> References: <3F6C4A3D.10269.326B87A3@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I wrote: > If I had more time I probably could find more examples. They aren't > exactly the same as the original "Celtic knotwork" but they were doing > the "look at old things and try to imitate them" that we also tend to > do. (Level of success in imitation depending on how much you are > trying to do a reproduction as opposed to "inspiration".) Kass wrote: >>>> I'm > more inclined to see this as an imitation of Italian decorative > scrollwork than Celtic knotwork. There is nothing Celtic or knotty > about the portraits you've shown. I see a bunch of interlaced vines. > Not knotwork. > > I'm talking about the Celtic knotwork that appears in manuscript > illuminations and stone carvings. There is no evidence of that motif > in embroidery of any era that I have ever seen. There is more than one kind of Celtic knotwork, evidently. The Italianate scrollwork is being done at the same time and is part of the imitative work (which was not limited to England at the time). It has more in common with the zoomorphic Celtic knotwork that is seen in both the Book of Kells and the Lindisfarne Gospels than the Ian Bain style that most people think of. Yes, it is very viney, but it is also interlaced. I wish that they had on the web the 1539 "school of Holbein" portrait of Henry VIII. It has a distinctly knotwork pattern of the type you are probably thinking of. If you have James Laver's _Early Tudor 1485- 1558_ you'll find it on plate 33. It's done in gold on the red velvet of his coat. (It's one of the problems with this list in that if you can't find it on the web and no one has the same books to use as reference, it's hard to see what the other person is saying.) However, I don't believe it was done in the Celtic period as embroidery. Nor do I believe that the real Celts in the 16th century would have used the motifs such as you now see in the Irish clogger costumes that are worn modernly. It does not belie the imitative aspects of the 16th century embroideries and manuscripts with regard to taking motifs and ideas from the Celts (which they would not have seen nearly as frequently as we do. After all, they didn't have the plethora of books on the subject which we have so will hardly have the ability to do it as accurately as we would.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 01:46:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L5kcIO020317 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:46:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5k776018541 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:46:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5k5iJ006066; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:46:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5k2iK006040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:46:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8L5k6N2004626 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:46:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8L5k6BZ004624 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:46:06 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:46:05 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <3F6CD423.15817.3486355E@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F6CD423.15817.3486355E@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309210146.05974.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sunday 21 September 2003 01:26 am, kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: [snip] > They have a picture of Francois I with some knotwork on his sleeves, > by the way. I'd forgotten about his portrait. > > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/clouet/jean/francois.html > Yes, indeed that is interlace, but it isn't the Bain Celtic style, nor anything like the Book of Kells type stuff. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 01:56:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L5uBIO020339 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:56:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5nw76018675 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:49:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5nviJ007323; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:49:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5nsiK007309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:49:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8L5nwN2004648 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:49:58 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8L5nwqv004646 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:49:58 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:49:58 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309210149.58301.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sunday 21 September 2003 01:05 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Robin Netherton wrote: > > I've been out all day and will be out all day tomorrow, so I can't try > > digging up the image now... > > OK, I lied. I did take a few minutes just for a quick websearch. Try this: > > http://tudorhistory.org/henry8/henryred2.jpg > > Look at the curtain behind Henry. Knots, inside of something that could be > called scrolling vines given their shape. Hmm, maybe we're both right. The design on the curtain is very like the interlace work on the sleeves of Francis I in the portrait Kat dug up. I'd definitely call it interlace, but I don't think it's either particularly viney or much like so-called Celtic knotwork. > > But that isn't the image I was thinking of -- the one I remember was > straight and narrow, like a moulding along the edge of a panel. I may have > the wrong king or something :-( > > In this one, he also has interlaced something-or-other on his oversleeve > trim: > > http://tudorhistory.org/henry8/henry.jpg This one is not as easy to see, but it looks a lot less like the interlace stuff to me. > Still not the one I'm visualizing. Just another that looked useful for > "knotwork motif" discussion. Thanks for digging it up. >Clearly there was plenty of interlacing in > the decorative vocabulary of the time. Doesn't mean it's Celtic. I suspect this may have been the point Kass was trying to make. Kass? >And it > doesn't mean it was used in clothing, either, though the sleeve trim does > suggest that it was fair game. The Francis I portrait suggests it was used in clothing, at least. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 01:57:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L5vwIO020343 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:57:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5vS76018902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:57:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5vRsA009776; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:57:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L5vNsB009758 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:57:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8L5vRN2004789 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:57:27 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8L5vRpG004787 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:57:27 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:57:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309210157.27335.cathy@thyrsus.com> Subject: [h-cost] That elusive portrait of Henry VIII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Robin: Is this the portrait with the interlace on the "wood like" edging that you had in mind? http://www.marileecody.com/henrys.jpg -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 04:17:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L8HBIO021412 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 04:17:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L8GT76022893 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:16:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L8GRsp025069; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:16:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gw.retro.com (gw.retro.com [205.179.181.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L8GOsp025048 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:16:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by gw.retro.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h8L8Hdg02861 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:17:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Thompson-Herbert Message-Id: <200309210817.h8L8Hdg02861@gw.retro.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Nordic (usually swedish) "knotwork" is rather different from anglo-saxon (yes, the knotwork part is anglo-saxon, the spirals are la Tene period celtic) knotwork. In general, the insular celtic work is more structured, and the patterns have more symmetry. Having drawn both, I find swedish work harder to follow, as the work is more free-form. As for designs that can be mistaken for vine-scrolls, take a look at this mirror that was fished out of the Thames: http://gw.retro.com/employees/lee/Tattoos/bronzemirror.jpg Versions of similar spiral work can be found that look very similar to italian vine scrolls. An example of anglo-saxon goldwork from the Sutton Hoo ship burial: http://gw.retro.com/employees/lee/Tattoos/goldbuckle.jpg When I attempted to reproduce this design, I found that the apparent symmetry is an illusion and strands end and begin rather arbitrarily. Irish work often incorporates variations along a design while preserving the appearance of symmetry, but the rules for where and how strands will begin and end are stricter than found in anglo-saxon work. For another set of comparisons, look at the Lindisfarne Gospels, which is the work of anglo-saxon scribes and compare that to Kells or Durrow. Anglo-saxon work is wilder and freer than celtic work, and nordic designs are even wilder. The two photos are part of my tattoo design pages, which you can see at http://gw.retro.com/employees/lee/Tattoos/Lee.html http://gw.retro.com/employees/lee/Tattoos/Jody.html The Sutton Hoo design had to be considerably simplified to get a design that would age well. Lee M.Thompson-Herbert lee@retro.com KoX 1995, SP4 Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades. "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 04:32:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L8W6IO029009 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 04:32:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L8Vg76023200 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:31:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L8Vfsp029403; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:31:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gw.retro.com (gw.retro.com [205.179.181.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L8Vasp029382 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:31:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by gw.retro.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h8L8Wqm03299 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:32:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Thompson-Herbert Message-Id: <200309210832.h8L8Wqm03299@gw.retro.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >http://tudorhistory.org/henry8/henryred2.jpg >http://tudorhistory.org/henry8/henry.jpg I'll agree with whoever said that these designs don't look like the manuscript illuminations turned out by irish and anglo-saxon monestaries. They actually look like cousins to DaVinci's knotwork designs. The "rules" of symmetry that I mentioned in my last post are quite rigid in these designs which makes it look less like insular celtic knotwork and more like the various italian and french designs one finds in manuscripts and architecture. This is actually why many modern attempts at celtic knotwork look subtly wrong. They're too rigid and have none of the variations found in the original works. This is also why I think Bain's method books only carry one so far in learning how to reproduce insular celtic styles of decoration. [been at it 16 years so far...] Lee M.Thompson-Herbert lee@retro.com KoX 1995, SP4 Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades. "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 04:34:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8L8YRIO029024 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 04:34:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L8Xv76023290 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:33:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L8Xvsp000158; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:33:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gw.retro.com (gw.retro.com [205.179.181.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8L8Xssp000142 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 02:33:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by gw.retro.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h8L8ZCV03331 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:35:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Thompson-Herbert Message-Id: <200309210835.h8L8ZCV03331@gw.retro.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >the Irish clogger Stepdancer, if you please. Even the english clog dancers are _stepdancers_, not cloggers. That's an american term. Lee M.Thompson-Herbert lee@retro.com KoX 1995, SP4 Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades. "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart" :wq _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 07:52:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LBpxIO001850 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:52:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LBpM76028930 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 05:51:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LBpJ0A026375; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 05:51:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LBpG0A026359 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 05:51:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.133]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:49:49 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:51:32 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c38036$b406a6f0$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <200309210149.58301.cathy@thyrsus.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >Clearly there was plenty of interlacing in > the decorative vocabulary of the time. Doesn't mean it's Celtic. I suspect this may have been the point Kass was trying to make. Kass? >>>> That's exactly the point I was trying to make, Catherine. Thanks for helping me clarify. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 07:55:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LBtMIO001877 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:55:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LBsd76029036 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 05:54:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LBsd0A027358; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 05:54:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LBsZ0A027335 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 05:54:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.133]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:53:07 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:54:51 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c38037$2aa3a470$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <200309210146.05974.cathy@thyrsus.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > They have a picture of Francois I with some knotwork on his sleeves, > by the way. I'd forgotten about his portrait. > > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/clouet/jean/francois.html Yes, indeed that is interlace, but it isn't the Bain Celtic style, nor anything like the Book of Kells type stuff. >>>> Amen. Thanks Cathy, Kat, Robin, Sue, Cassandra, everyone... Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 08:09:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LC9KIO001967 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:09:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LC8p76029412 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 06:08:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LC8oEt001931; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 06:08:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LC8kEt001908 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 06:08:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.133]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:07:18 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:09:01 -0400 Message-ID: <000f01c38039$25cf4e20$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6CD01D.24204.34767B8D@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kat wrote: However, I don't believe it was done in the Celtic period as embroidery. And I respond: Nor will I... until we did up an extant piece of embroidery from that period. Kat went on: Nor do I believe that the real Celts in the 16th century would have used the motifs such as you now see in the Irish clogger costumes that are worn modernly. And I add: ...which are based on an early 20th century "celtic revivalist" design. That's okay. I don't believe that there were any real Celts in the 16th century (semantics). Kat postulated: It does not belie the imitative aspects of the 16th century embroideries and manuscripts with regard to taking motifs and ideas from the Celts (which they would not have seen nearly as frequently as we do. After all, they didn't have the plethora of books on the subject which we have so will hardly have the ability to do it as accurately as we would.) And I reply: I see where you're coming from with this idea, but I don't know that there is anything to support the idea that these 16th century embroiderers were trying to imitate the Celts at all. I cannot remember who, but someone earlier in this discussion mentioned that there was knotwork in a portrait of Henry to indicate his Welsh background. That made me wonder if that was known or if it was a modern assumption. Sixteenth century England is not my area of expertise, but in all my reading, I've never seen evidence that the English of that period (or anyone for that matter) were making an attempt to copy the decorative techniques of the ancient Celts. Is there evidence of such a trend? I mean, as you say, they wouldn't have seen the manuscripts (most of which were either hidden or lost until the 20th century) or the stone carvings nearly as frequently as we do today. Just a thought. If there's no primary documentation of an active desire by the 16th century English to imitate the designs of the Celts, I don't see how this idea can be supported. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 08:13:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LCDfIO002042 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:13:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LCDB76029527 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 06:13:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LCDBEt003419; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 06:13:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LCD8Et003355 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 06:13:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.133]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:11:40 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:13:23 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6D02B5.3020102@grics.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm wondering if this writer even knew about pattens, clogs etc. Anyone know when the high heels with the *toe on the ground* came in? >>>> Hi Edwina. I can tell you that there is an extant shoe from the 1650s or 60s in the V&A and it has a raised heel. It's built like a modern mule: vamp, sole, no back. There is a heel that is higher than the toe, but I doubt if it is more than 2" high. I don't know if there are any extant 16th century shoes. Anyone? Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 10:06:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LE6AIO002541 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:06:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LE5F76003090 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:05:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LE5BvM008263; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:05:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web12001.mail.yahoo.com (web12001.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8LE58vM008242 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:05:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030921140508.3697.qmail@web12001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.221.225.240] by web12001.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:05:08 PDT Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:05:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Cascio Michael To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] Knotwork again X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Back to the computer again before church and I've had a chance to see all the posts so... I believe what I'm interested in doing is the interlaced cables, relatively complicated with six or seven interlacing lines that interlace and knot over and above each other without leaves or legs or heads or anything, just the repeated sections of cables. I've got the Bain and there are several knotwork workbooks at the local indie bookstore but the patterns just looked a little off. If the problem is the rigidity of the symmetry that may be what is bothering me. I've had more success getting the correct feel when I've added lines here and there to fill the space a little more. Some kind soul suggested the Viking answer lady and the Spanish (?) regions as a place to look so I'll search there. I'm really being brain dead after my surgery with more treatments upcoming so I'm hoping for someone to direct me to an interlaced pattern embroidered on the neckline or sleeve ends of a simple shirt. I don't mind doing white on white I just think the repetition of knotwork lines interlacing with split or chain stitch would be just the thing for me right now. If there's not a period for this other than modern then that's okay too but I'm finding the discussion and all the portrait links great inspiration for when I feel human again. Thanks again. Cassandra __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 10:21:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LELRIO002563 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:21:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEJd76004201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:19:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEJcvM013068; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:19:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEJXvM013037 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:19:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13388 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:41:38 -0500 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:41:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork In-Reply-To: <200309210149.58301.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I wrote: > >Clearly there was plenty of interlacing in > > the decorative vocabulary of the time. Doesn't mean it's Celtic. Catherine said: > I suspect this may have been the point Kass was trying to make. Kass? Yes, and I was agreeing with her. The original statement I responded to was one of Kass's, as follows: <> That was a pretty sweeping statement and could easily have been taken out of context from Kass's intent (as Kass, it now seems had a very narrow definition of "knotwork"). I wanted to point out that there was indeed knotwork used as a decorative technique in the 16th century, in some media. But I agreed with Kass's larger point that this didn't mean the people in the 16th century were doing "Celtic knotwork" -- rather, that this was a decorative motif that could appear in many places. (In the same way, you'll see warp-and-weft stripes that create checked cloth that we might call "plaid" in many cultures, but that doesn't mean they're all based on Celtic influence -- yet I've heard some people assume just that.) I also wrote: > >And it > > doesn't mean it was used in clothing, either, though the sleeve trim does > > suggest that it was fair game. > > The Francis I portrait suggests it was used in clothing, at least. Sorry, this is what I get for writing in a rush last night. (I'm on day 3 of a three-day craft show, and have to leave again shortly.) My point, again going back to the original discussion, was that the use of knotwork on clothing in the 16th century doesn't mean that the Celts used knotwork on clothing. It does mean that at least one culture thought of taking a decorative motif used on some non-clothing decor and using it on clothing as well. The Celts might have done so too, but we can't assume they did simply because we have knotwork in illuminations and carvings. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 10:25:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LEPqIO002570 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:25:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEPS76004408 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:25:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEPRvM014931; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:25:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEPNvM014909 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:25:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13413 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:47:29 -0500 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:47:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] That elusive portrait of Henry VIII In-Reply-To: <200309210157.27335.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > Robin: Is this the portrait with the interlace on the "wood like" > edging that you had in mind? > > http://www.marileecody.com/henrys.jpg Thanks, but no. I'm remembering something painted in color, with a narrow rail or moulding strip or tile design that had a long interlace. I remember the optical effect of "relief" to the strands of interlace -- either painted on a tile or wall, or actually carved into the moulding (and then, of course, painted as such in the painting). This is really nagging at me now! I can visualize part of the painting in my head but can't plug it into a larger picture. And Tudor isn't my period, so I don't have anything in my slide library. Very frustrating. I will probably stumble on it again in a few months and find out I had a completely different king, century, and country in mind :-( --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 10:39:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LEdpIO002646 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:39:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEdB76005003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:39:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEdAvM019581; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:39:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEd7vM019551 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:39:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from c59303a (12-238-186-49.client.attbi.com[12.238.186.49]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003092114390101200far28e>; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:39:01 +0000 Message-ID: <012501c3804e$15d941f0$31baee0c@c59303a> From: "chiara" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] That elusive portrait of Henry VIII Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:38:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com This is going to sound odd but have you looked at clipart.com? There is a ton of recreated knot work on the site, more than most of us have time to look at. But if you have a better description I can do a search on the members only database for you unless you have your own membership to it. We have had a membership to it for almost a decade (through two name changes and many price changes) they are pretty incredible not to mention saving me from having a single computer dedicated to gigabytes of storage to art. They have images from whole books scanned in there. Blanche White's books from the UT press are in there. Most of the Dover books are also in there. But my personal favorites are those architectural plans for the decorations of the Crystal Palace. I would not doubt that the trim you are looking for is in there or a facsimile of it from the Victorian era by Dover is in there. Chiara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Netherton" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] That elusive portrait of Henry VIII : : On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: : : > Robin: Is this the portrait with the interlace on the "wood like" : > edging that you had in mind? : > : > http://www.marileecody.com/henrys.jpg : : Thanks, but no. I'm remembering something painted in color, with a narrow : rail or moulding strip or tile design that had a long interlace. I : remember the optical effect of "relief" to the strands of interlace -- : either painted on a tile or wall, or actually carved into the moulding : (and then, of course, painted as such in the painting). This is really : nagging at me now! I can visualize part of the painting in my head but : can't plug it into a larger picture. And Tudor isn't my period, so I don't : have anything in my slide library. Very frustrating. : : I will probably stumble on it again in a few months and find out I had a : completely different king, century, and country in mind :-( : : --Robin : : _______________________________________________ : h-costume mailing list : h-costume@mail.indra.com : http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 10:55:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LEtDIO002685 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:55:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEsb76005630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:54:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEsZvM025253; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:54:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LEsWvM025242 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:54:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.133]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:53:04 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork and plaid -- my favourites! Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:54:48 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c38050$4e605160$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Robin. Hope you're enjoying your craft show. >>>> That was a pretty sweeping statement and could easily have been taken out of context from Kass's intent (as Kass, it now seems had a very narrow definition of "knotwork"). >>>> Yes, indeed I do. Thank you for helping clarify it for me. To me, if you say, "Celtic knotwork", it means a very specific motif that existed only in stone carvings and illuminated manuscripts. The argument if it's even Celtic is best saved for another time. But in any case, *that* is what I was saying isn't seen in embroidery, neither in the 16th century nor in the actual Celtic period. And you can't just assume that because they used in on stone, they used it on linen or wool or silk. I mean, unless your intention is to make a costume that isn't really based on any historical model, you shouldn't be embroidering Celtic knotwork all over the place. Unless, of course, your historical model is from early 20th century Ireland (1900-1920s). That is the first era in which I find documentation for Celtic knotwork embroidery. >>>> I wanted to point out that there was indeed knotwork used as a decorative technique in the 16th century, in some media. But I agreed with Kass's larger point that this didn't mean the people in the 16th century were doing "Celtic knotwork" -- rather, that this was a decorative motif that could appear in many places. (In the same way, you'll see warp-and-weft stripes that create checked cloth that we might call "plaid" in many cultures, but that doesn't mean they're all based on Celtic influence -- yet I've heard some people assume just that.) >>>> Yup. I also have this argument all the time -- people assuming that any instance of plaid/tartan equates with Celtic/Scottish origin. It's not hard to put a couple different-coloured threads next to each other on a loom and come up with a pretty pattern that we call "plaid". Matter of fact, nearly every culture on earth has done some form of it. It doesn't mean they all learned it from the Celts. Matter of fact, it's not even certain that the Celts wove plaid. Do we actually have any of Celtic origin? (And by "Celtic", I *do not* mean Scottish or Irish or Welsh or Cornish or Max or Breton -- I mean good, old ancient Roman-era and pre-Roman-era Celtic). See this: http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/celtic/plaid.html Caveat: a friend wrote most of the above article. I disagree with her first paragraph. Although the word plaid came to mean "pleated" in English, in Gaelic, it most definitely meant a blanket or rug. Still does. =) As I said earlier in this discussion, lots of different cultures who never had contact with each other have crosses and swastikas and six-pointed stars in their decorative motifs. These are simple things to invent. So are interlaced designs and plaid. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 11:03:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LF3gIO002703 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:03:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LF3876006032 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:03:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LF37Aq028470; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:03:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LF35Aq028435 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:03:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a257.in-tch.com [66.62.107.57]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8LEghp15700 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:42:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6DBE2C.F119C46@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:05:16 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork and plaid -- my favourites! References: <001601c38050$4e605160$856453d8@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com One of my favorite dresses shows up in Dunleavy, and dates from about then, I think (without hauling over to the bookcase and looking it up). It's a silk? tea gown with (I think) various painted celtic knotwork designs on it. If I ever had a reason to do a fin-de-siecle Irish gown, that would be the one! And someday, I'll be making myself a shirt covered in knotwork and zoomorphs and everything else, but it'll be for mundane fun. I fell in love with a description of one in a novel many years ago...;-) --sue Kass McGann wrote: > I mean, unless your intention is to make a costume that isn't > really based on any historical model, you shouldn't be embroidering > Celtic knotwork all over the place. Unless, of course, your historical > model is from early 20th century Ireland (1900-1920s). That is the > first era in which I find documentation for Celtic knotwork embroidery. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 11:15:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LFFCIO002748 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:15:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LFEe76006463 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:14:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LFEdAq002338; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:14:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LFEbAq002327 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:14:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.133]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:13:09 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork and plaid -- my favourites! Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:14:53 -0400 Message-ID: <001701c38053$1c8e8910$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6DBE2C.F119C46@in-tch.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com One of my favorite dresses shows up in Dunleavy, and dates from about then, I think (without hauling over to the bookcase and looking it up). It's a silk? tea gown with (I think) various painted celtic knotwork designs on it. If I ever had a reason to do a fin-de-siecle Irish gown, that would be the one! >>>> I know the one you mean, Sue. It was made by the Dun Emer Guild in Dublin in 1928 and designed by Sarah Purser. It's silk embroidery on poplin. I'm assuming that they mean real poplin (a wool/silk blend) and not modern cotton poplin. The photograph shows that decidedly real poplin sheen so I assume it's the real deal. >>>> And someday, I'll be making myself a shirt covered in knotwork and zoomorphs and everything else, but it'll be for mundane fun. I fell in love with a description of one in a novel many years ago...;-) >>>> THAT would be cool... Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 12:00:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LG0NIO002887 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:00:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LFxp76007882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:59:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LFxn1G016955; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:59:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LFxj1H016929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:59:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8LFxoN2016990 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:59:51 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8LFxoOC016988 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:59:50 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:59:49 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <000701c38036$b406a6f0$856453d8@Kass> In-Reply-To: <000701c38036$b406a6f0$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309211159.49517.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sunday 21 September 2003 07:51 am, Kass McGann wrote: > >Clearly there was plenty of interlacing in > > the decorative vocabulary of the time. Doesn't mean it's Celtic. > > I suspect this may have been the point Kass was trying to make. Kass? > > That's exactly the point I was trying to make, Catherine. Thanks for > helping me clarify. You're welcome. Clarification's my specialty. :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 13:26:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LHQgIO003109 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:26:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LHP17K011430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:25:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LH9bv7014251; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:09:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LH9Wv8014227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:09:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8LH9PN2017130 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:09:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8LH9MlX017128 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:09:22 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] That elusive portrait of Henry VIII Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:09:22 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309211309.22129.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sunday 21 September 2003 10:47 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > Robin: Is this the portrait with the interlace on the "wood like" > > edging that you had in mind? > > > > http://www.marileecody.com/henrys.jpg > > Thanks, but no. I'm remembering something painted in color, with a narrow > rail or moulding strip or tile design that had a long interlace. I > remember the optical effect of "relief" to the strands of interlace -- > either painted on a tile or wall, or actually carved into the moulding > (and then, of course, painted as such in the painting). This is really > nagging at me now! I can visualize part of the painting in my head but > can't plug it into a larger picture. And Tudor isn't my period, so I don't > have anything in my slide library. Very frustrating. Hmmm. Okay. If you ever find it, please let us all know! I think it's nagging at the rest of us too, by now. :-) > > I will probably stumble on it again in a few months and find out I had a > completely different king, century, and country in mind :-( Perhaps. But if the century is before the 20th it would still supply interesting fuel for the debate. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 14:44:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LIibIO003399 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:44:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LIhw76014764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:43:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LIhtSn021554; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:43:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LIhHSn021249 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:43:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptop.ntlworld.com ([80.5.59.86]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com ESMTP <20030921180435.QBCJ4462.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@laptop.ntlworld.com> for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:04:35 +0100 Message-Id: <6.0.0.14.0.20030921185554.02235c28@pop.ntlworld.com> X-Sender: lynneconnolly@pop.ntlworld.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.14 (Beta) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:03:31 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Lynne Connolly Subject: Re: [h-cost] That elusive portrait of Henry VIII In-Reply-To: <200309211309.22129.cathy@thyrsus.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-64D220FD; boundary="=======17625A0E=======" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --=======17625A0E======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-64D220FD; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 18:09 21/09/2003 Catherine Olanich Raymond said > > On Sun, 21 Sep 2003, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > > Robin: Is this the portrait with the interlace on the "wood like" > > > edging that you had in mind? > > > > > > http://www.marileecody.com/henrys.jpg That's the Cartoon for the great fresco at Whitehall and is the one that all the other portraits of mid to late period Henry VIII are based on. It is, of course, by Holbein the Younger. Which brings me to the point. As well as wonderful portraits, Holbein did jewellery designs. Perhaps your knotwork is one of those? http://www.jewelryexpert.com/articles/Jewellery-as-an-Art.htm Lynne Connolly, GSOLFOT Award winning Historical Romance author. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lynneconnolly/ The Richard and Rose books from Novelbooks Inc. YORKSHIRE, DEVONSHIRE and now VENICE. VANESSA from Awe-Struck --=======17625A0E======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --=======17625A0E=======-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 15:14:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LJEXIO003476 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:14:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJDm76015841 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:13:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJDjqX003528; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:13:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJDgqX003513 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:13:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-67.74.247.228.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([67.74.247.228] helo=4gxif) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A19eQ-00072p-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:13:42 -0400 Message-ID: <047501c38074$6c4c3080$e4f74a43@4gxif> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:13:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Robin wrote: > Though I did once see some Celtic-type knotwork in, hmm, either tiling or > wall paint on a surface in the background behind a portrait of Henry VIII. The portrait is from ca 1536, attributed (but not confrmed) to Hans Holbein. The knotwork appears on wall hangings/drapes behind a standing Henry, and there is additional knotwork with acanthus-type leaves on his doublet. -Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 15:40:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LJelIO003537 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:40:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJe376016937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:40:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJe1qX013996; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:40:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJdxqX013959 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:39:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-67.74.247.228.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([67.74.247.228] helo=4gxif) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1A3q-0005o1-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:39:58 -0400 Message-ID: <05cc01c38078$1d374c60$e4f74a43@4gxif> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <047501c38074$6c4c3080$e4f74a43@4gxif> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:39:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com And here's a link for the portrait from Altavista: http://www.tudor-portraits.com/Henry3.jpg -Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 15:46:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LJkjIO003552 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:46:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJkJ76017175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:46:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJkIqX016080; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:46:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJkDqY016055 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:46:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8LJkJN2017422 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:46:20 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8LJkJkp017420 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:46:19 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:46:19 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <000801c38037$2aa3a470$856453d8@Kass> In-Reply-To: <000801c38037$2aa3a470$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309211546.19348.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sunday 21 September 2003 07:54 am, Kass McGann wrote: > > They have a picture of Francois I with some knotwork on his sleeves, > > by the way. I'd forgotten about his portrait. > > > > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/clouet/jean/francois.html > > Yes, indeed that is interlace, but it isn't the Bain Celtic style, nor > anything like the Book of Kells type stuff. > > Amen. Thanks Cathy, Kat, Robin, Sue, Cassandra, everyone... You're welcome. It always annoys me, by the way, when people assume that a particular motif from architecture was used for costume without evidence. Certainly it could have been, but the mere presence of the motif in architecture doesn't mean it was used elsewhere. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 15:48:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LJmOIO003559 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:48:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJlc76017256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:47:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJlbqX016652; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:47:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJlZqX016637 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:47:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.136]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:46:07 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Joann's veggie dye fabric/ Celtic knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:47:51 -0400 Message-ID: <001f01c38079$3eff1b10$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <047501c38074$6c4c3080$e4f74a43@4gxif> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com The portrait is from ca 1536, attributed (but not confrmed) to Hans Holbein. The knotwork appears on wall hangings/drapes behind a standing Henry, and there is additional knotwork with acanthus-type leaves on his doublet. >>>> Very interesting! Thank you for posting the picture, Aidan. Is this the one that someone said was intended to represent his Welsh origins? I'm still wondering if that was a fact (gleaned from contemporary documents) or a modern assumption. Anyone know? Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 15:55:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LJtNIO003571 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:55:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJqW76017461 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:52:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJqVqX018504; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:52:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LJqTqX018474 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:52:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.136]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:51:00 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:52:45 -0400 Message-ID: <002001c38079$edda2300$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <200309211546.19348.cathy@thyrsus.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com It always annoys me, by the way, when people assume that a particular motif from architecture was used for costume without evidence. Certainly it could have been, but the mere presence of the motif in architecture doesn't mean it was used elsewhere. >>>> You and I are of one mind on that subject, Cathy. I mean, if you want to design a costume that isn't based on historical models and give it a Celtic "feel", sure. Add some interlaced doggies from the Book of Kells. But just because a motif is used in one medium by a culture, doesn't mean it was used in all of them. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 17:03:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LL3HIO003770 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:03:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LL2Z76020379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:02:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LL2XNE017130; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:02:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41506.mail.yahoo.com (web41506.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.89]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8LL2TNE017065 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:02:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030921210224.4452.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [193.237.15.43] by web41506.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:02:24 BST Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:02:24 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= To: H-Costume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Baroque idea of Amazon Queen masque costumes - FUN ones X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Last weekend we went to the last multi-period event of the year and had great fun! We had decided to do something different for the dance on Saturday night and went as the Baroque idea of Amazon Queens, or any old masque costume, really. Tash and I went a bit further with our costumes than Ulli and Sophie. However, they are not made from authentic materials at all, but are modern fun versions but with correct underpinnings and such. Difficult to describe, just have a look *G* http://www.kipar.org/society/events/03-09_military-odyssey.html I actually based mine on a late 17th c. painting by Claude Derouet. Have fun, because we had a blast! Nicole ===== Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ Email: nicole@kipar.org URL: http://www.kipar.org ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 17:21:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LLLGIO003801 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:21:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLKT76021170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:20:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLKRNE024073; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLKONE024058 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:20:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.136]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:18:56 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Baroque idea of Amazon Queen masque costumes - FUN ones Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:20:41 -0400 Message-ID: <002101c38086$3690ad10$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <20030921210224.4452.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Last weekend we went to the last multi-period event of the year and had great fun! We had decided to do something different for the dance on Saturday night and went as the Baroque idea of Amazon Queens, or any old masque costume, really. Tash and I went a bit further with our costumes than Ulli and Sophie. >>>> What fun it looks, Nicole! And what beautiful weather you had. Envy envy envy... Kass shoes still drying out from last weekend's event _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 17:27:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LLR0IO003833 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:27:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLQJ76021358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLQINE026205; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLQHNE026193 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip128.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.128]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFE76D637 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:26:15 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:24:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Baroque idea of Amazon Queen masque costumes - FUN ones Message-ID: <3F6DB487.24276.37F2B920@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030921210224.4452.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I actually based mine on a late 17th c. painting by Claude Derouet. That wouldn't be the one with the lady falling backwards off the horse, would it? Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 17:53:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LLrBIO003901 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:53:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLqb76022359 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:52:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLqZNE006194; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:52:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLqUNE006135 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:52:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a218.in-tch.com [66.62.107.18]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8LLW7p27096 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:32:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6E1E21.96D907A2@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:54:41 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork and plaid -- my favourites! References: <001701c38053$1c8e8910$856453d8@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Yeah, wouldn't it, though? I'm imagining a historically-based pattern for the shirt (sort of a cross between 18th c. men's shirts and English "smocks")--full sleeves with cuffs, minimal "yoke," placket opening for the neck. Minimal or band collar. I want it just crawling with people and critters and vines and colors. Done in silk, of course. In that eensy, tiny split stitch used for opus anglicanum. My sticking point, so far, has been finding the right fabric for the shirt itself....I'm thinking a linen twill as first choice, or a wool twill, if I could find it in the right white or off-white. And finding the right silk floss, of course. Most all of the stuff I've been able to find is too twisted. --sue Kass McGann wrote: > > >>>> > And someday, I'll be making myself a shirt covered in knotwork and > zoomorphs and everything else, but it'll be for mundane fun. I fell in > love with a description of one in a novel many years ago...;-) > >>>> > THAT would be cool... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 17:58:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LLwZIO003919 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:58:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLw276022692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:58:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLw1G8008231; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:58:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LLvwG8008219 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:57:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.136]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:56:30 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork and plaid -- my favourites! Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:58:15 -0400 Message-ID: <002201c3808b$761c1ff0$856453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6E1E21.96D907A2@in-tch.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Yeah, wouldn't it, though? I'm imagining a historically-based pattern for the shirt (sort of a cross between 18th c. men's shirts and English "smocks")--full sleeves with cuffs, minimal "yoke," placket opening for the neck. Minimal or band collar. I want it just crawling with people and critters and vines and colors. Done in silk, of course. In that eensy, tiny split stitch used for opus anglicanum. >>>> Wow! That's going to be an amazing piece, Sue. Good luck with it! Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 18:01:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LM1gIO003937 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:01:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LM0v76022840 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:00:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LM0uG8009344; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:00:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LM0tG8009303 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:00:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a218.in-tch.com [66.62.107.18]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8LLeWp29743 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:40:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6E201A.30BBCD67@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:03:06 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Baroque idea of Amazon Queen masque costumes - FUN ones References: <20030921210224.4452.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Oh, but you must have had a *blast!* Silliness and seriousness, all in one weekend. And good weather, to boot! --sue, enjoying some decent (for once) Indian summer weather in her neck of the woods N Kipar wrote: > > Last weekend we went to the last multi-period event of the year and had great > fun! We had decided to do something different for the dance on Saturday night > and went as the Baroque idea of Amazon Queens, or any old masque costume, > really. Tash and I went a bit further with our costumes than Ulli and Sophie. > > However, they are not made from authentic materials at all, but are modern fun > versions but with correct underpinnings and such. Difficult to describe, just > have a look *G* > > http://www.kipar.org/society/events/03-09_military-odyssey.html > > I actually based mine on a late 17th c. painting by Claude Derouet. > > Have fun, because we had a blast! > > Nicole > > ===== > Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' > http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ > > Email: nicole@kipar.org > URL: http://www.kipar.org > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 18:02:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LM2wIO003943 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:02:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LM2U76022892 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:02:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LM2TG8009926; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:02:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LM2RG8009880 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:02:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a218.in-tch.com [66.62.107.18]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8LLg4p00212 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:42:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6E2076.DC8EA74B@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:04:38 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork and plaid -- my favourites! References: <002201c3808b$761c1ff0$856453d8@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com *snort* I'll need all the luck I can get! and time, too. Although, first I've got to slog through the blackwork for my Eternal Italian Camicia. ;o) --sue Kass McGann wrote: > > Yeah, wouldn't it, though? I'm imagining a historically-based pattern > for the shirt (sort of a cross between 18th c. men's shirts and English > "smocks")--full sleeves with cuffs, minimal "yoke," placket opening for > the neck. Minimal or band collar. I want it just crawling with people > and critters and vines and colors. Done in silk, of course. In that > eensy, tiny split stitch used for opus anglicanum. > >>>> > Wow! That's going to be an amazing piece, Sue. Good luck with it! > > Kass > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 19:00:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8LN06IO004071 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:00:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LMxO76025294 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:59:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LMxMIf002392; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:59:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8LMxKIf002315 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:59:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8LMx1Ng007636 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:59:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030921184753.00afae30@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:58:08 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] Re: Irish/Scots brat X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kass wrote: >There are many textual >references to Irish "shaggy mantles" of which the Mantle of St. Brigid >(housed in the Cathedral at Bruges) may be an extant example. It has >long, unspun pieces of wool inserted into the weave which would have >been worn on the inside and would have made the garment warm and nearly >waterproof. This is where people get the mistaken impression that Irish >mantles should be fur lined. I don't know squat about the scholarship behind them, but the historical notes accompanying Folkwear Pattern 206 (Kinsale Cloak) details a process in which the wool for said cloak was made waterproof; IIRC it involves brushing the wool and manipulating the fibers into ringlet curls. (I don't have the pattern to-hand and don't know when I'll get back to Queens to retrieve it.) While I'm fairly certain that this would have been in a much later period than the one you're discussing, could these "shaggy mantles" have been treated in a similar fashion? Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 20:07:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8M07BIO004213 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:07:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M06C76028795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:06:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M06AMv000299; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:06:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web12006.mail.yahoo.com (web12006.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.214]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8M067Mv000268 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030922000607.67775.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.221.225.220] by web12006.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:06:06 PDT Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:06:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Cascio Michael To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] 1920s Dunlevy with knotwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hello all, I think I am guilty of assuming that what I wanted was Celtic as that is how it is referred to when it's quilting. Given that that is the design I want to embroider can someone give me the stats on the Dunlevy book? Are there any photos of this dress on-line or close-ups of the embroidery? I've seen the stepdancing costumes but would like something a little more historical. 1920s works for me. Fascinating discussion. Cassandra __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 20:11:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8M0BeIO004222 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:11:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M0At76029042 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:10:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M0AsMv002156; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:10:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M0AnMv002107 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:10:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8M0AmFp001399 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.197.137] (tnt-1-201.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.197.137])h8M0AgrH001376 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F6CADE6.6000502@grics.net> References: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> <3F6CADE6.6000502@grics.net> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:28:29 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 2:43 PM -0500 9/20/03, H. Law wrote: >Don't remember who, but someone said the Celtic knotwork in the >Henry 8 portrait was probably a conscious thing connected with >henry's welsh ancestry. I've never seen "Celtic Knotwork" on >pre-Henry celtic/gaelic garb before, but some Norse stuff had >similar work. often animal-interlace. (Those cute little eely things >in the book of kells are a great -*legitimate*- excuse for the >really intense knotwork - just stick a little head on one end, taper >off the other one for a tail and away you go!:-P ) I know I'm coming in a little late on this one, but I'll add my voice to those who note that it can be badly misleading to think of _all_ interlace/strapwork-type motifs as "Celtic knotwork". Even during the heyday of early medieval Irish manuscript art, interlace designs -- whether zoomorphic or not -- were not at all confined to Celtic-speaking regions. And there seems no reason to connect late medieval/renaissance strapwork designs -- whether in Britain or the Mediterranean region -- with the artistic context of the early Irish manuscripts. Here's a question: _Why_ would it be reasonable to think that Henry VIII would consider using strapwork/interlace as an expression of his Welsh ancestry? I know of no reason to believe that a late medieval Welsh person would consider such motifs to be peculiarly associated with his culture or to be an expression of it. The expansion of early insular manuscript art to being an icon of "Celticity" is a modern phenomenon. >There is also the Spanish-Moorish textiles where the interlace motif >is allovertheplace. The Book of Kells-type stuff is thought to have >arrived through traveling early-xtian monks who had access to Coptic >manuscripts in Egypt, where the moorish and african influence on >design was strong. To the best of my knowledge, any theories about Egyptian origins of early Insular manuscript styles are not widely accepted in the Celtic academic community. Since there's a reasonable continuity of style from pre-Christian artwork (e.g., in metal) of the La Tene style up through the Irish manuscript art of the early medieval period, I'm not sure why there would be a need to look as far afield as Egypt for an explanation of those artistic styles. >If you're looking for interlace designs on clothes, try a Nordic >influence, or someone who has travelled to Spain. (Spain would also >open up allover designs for you to use.) >There is, or was, a publication by someone in SCA (actually several >of them!) that showed some embroidery from Welsh garb; As far as I'm aware (and I pay attention to things like this), there is only one (1) surviving example of embroidery from medieval Wales -- a 10th century piece in silk on linen (although it survived in completely carbonized form) whose strongest artistic connections seem to be with imported silks from the East, involving stylized "lions", and birds enclosed in hexagonal frames of vegetation. No real resemblance to local vernacular art at all. If you're aware of some other surviving pieces of medieval Welsh embroidery, I'd desperately like to have leads on them. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 20:31:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8M0VIIO004267 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:31:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M0UO76029860 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:30:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M0UNMv009853; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:30:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M0ULMv009815 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:30:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m8.in-tch.com [216.166.191.8]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8M09wp20411 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:09:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6E431F.17834388@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:32:31 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1920s Dunlevy with knotwork References: <20030922000607.67775.qmail@web12006.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com "Dress in Ireland," by Mairead Dunlevy. The copy I've got was published in 1989, so I have no idea if it's still in print or not. Oh...the ISBN is 0-8419-1269-8 As far as the dress goes, it looks like Kass and I are actually talking about two entirely separate dresses, both in the same book. I was referring to a "batik-printed tea gown and tunic, about 1905" on p. 175. Kass, I think, was referring to a later dress on p. 177. That one is noted as an "embroidered dress and brat made by the Dun Emer Guild, Dublin, about 1928, and said to have been designed by the artist Sarah Purser. It is of peacock-blue poplin. The bodice is lined with silk and trimmed with silk chiffon. The silk embroidery is in rich shades of blue and purple." They're both beautiful dresses reflective of their respective time periods AND a recurring interest in Irish art and nationalism. The photos are b/w, though, so I can't tell what colors are in my printed tea gown, except that they look strong (good contrasts). I have never seen either garment in anything except this one book, sorry, although the "list of illustrations" notes that they're both in the National Museum in Dublin (I'm assuming it's referring to the photographs, and not the actual garments). Looking through this book, though, I once again found my most-favorite dress from the 18th c., that I actually want to recreate some day. It's on p. 127, and is described as a "morning robe, about 1785, of Irish linen printed with wood blocks in two shades of red as well as yellow, mauve and black." The photo shows the gown from the back, which is narrow and has several pieces in the bodice. The bodice back is slightly pointed, and the modestly full skirt looks to be cartridge pleated to the bodice. The visible (right) sleeve looks fairly plain and narrow, and extends at least past the elbow. I can't see any of the front details. The fabric is light in color, with a widely-spaced, viney-looking pattern of flowers and leaves (looks a lot like some of the other fabrics I've seen from that time). It's apparently in the National Museum, as well. Darn it, I don't remember seeing any of this stuff when I was there last year! -sue, who figures any excuse to go back to Dublin is a pretty good excuse! Cascio Michael wrote: > > Hello all, > I think I am guilty of assuming that what I wanted > was Celtic as that is how it is referred to when it's > quilting. Given that that is the design I want to > embroider can someone give me the stats on the Dunlevy > book? Are there any photos of this dress on-line or > close-ups of the embroidery? I've seen the > stepdancing costumes but would like something a little > more historical. 1920s works for me. Fascinating > discussion. > Cassandra _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 20:43:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8M0hsIO004298 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:43:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M0gG76000423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:42:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M0gEMv014545; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:42:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M0gAMv014530 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:42:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.78]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:40:41 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Irish/Scots brat Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:42:26 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c380a2$6616e6a0$4e48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030921184753.00afae30@mail.earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I don't know squat about the scholarship behind them, but the historical notes accompanying Folkwear Pattern 206 (Kinsale Cloak) details a process in which the wool for said cloak was made waterproof; IIRC it involves brushing the wool and manipulating the fibers into ringlet curls. (I don't have the pattern to-hand and don't know when I'll get back to Queens to retrieve it.) While I'm fairly certain that this would have been in a much later period than the one you're discussing, could these "shaggy mantles" have been treated in a similar fashion? >>>> Hi Brenda. The technique described on Folkwear's Kinsale cloak is one purported by A.T. Lucas in his article "Cloth Finishing in Ireland" (in Folklife, Volume 6, 1968, pp 53-61). In this article, a man who made waterproof cloaks in the early 20th century demonstrates this "ancient" technique. But like all "traditional" folk techniques, I have serious doubts as to whether this was the same method used to make the interior of 16th century brats furry. The Mantle of St. Brigid that I mentioned earlier was not made in this way. The fragment which is housed in the Cathedral at Bruges is a piece of tabby weave wool with unspun wool inserted into the weave, not unlike velvet. This mantle appears in the Cathedral's inventory of 1347 and is a much better representative of how brats may have been made. It's not 16th century, of course. But at least it's not early 20th. Henry Foster McClintock described the mantle extensively in his article "The Mantle of St. Brigid at Bruges" in The Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, Vol LXVI, 1936, pp 3240. By the way, this technique has absolutely nothing to do with how Kinsale Cloaks were made. =) Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 21:21:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8M1LtIO004369 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:21:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M1Ik76002061 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:18:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M1If0r028675; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:18:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.186]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8M1Ic0r028647 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:18:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-122-228-191.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@67.122.228.191 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2003 01:18:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:16:32 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: Sarah To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <66B51F2B-EC9A-11D7-AC7E-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Subject: [h-cost] Help with Bustles X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm taking a costuming class right now, focused on the years 1870-1885. Our teacher has us making our bustles from Hunnisett's 1800-1909 book, page 133 petticoat "B". Essentially, it's a flounced skirt with a bustle pad on top. However, I'm having trouble grasping what era this combination would be appropriate for. You don't have to lecture me on how Hunnisett is a theatrical costumer, I already know. ;) Near as I can tell, this combo might be what's under the "Natural Form" dresses from the mid 70s to the early 80's. Since this is so not my period, I'm actually pretty lost and would love some information on whether this is correct. You can see what I'm aiming for here: http://www.elizabethanlady.com/victorian/victorian.html Help? Sarah The Elizabethan Lady going crazy with Victorian fashion... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 22:16:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8M2G5IO004467 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:16:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M2FQ76004663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:15:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M2FONg020712; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:15:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.182]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8M2FKNg020687 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:15:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-121-144-10.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@67.121.144.10 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2003 02:15:20 -0000 Message-ID: <020201c380af$5e3a0a40$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: "Historical Costume" References: <66B51F2B-EC9A-11D7-AC7E-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help with Bustles Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:15:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Sarah, Yes, you're right -- your bustle/petticoat combination is aiming for late 1870's/early 1880's. There are some nice sketches of petticoats from this era in Cunnington's _English Women's Clothing in the Nineteenth Century_ and images from fashion plates in Blum's _Victorian Fashions and Costumes from Harper's BAzar, 1867-1898_. If you'd like to look at some dresses from this period, check out some of the Dover fashion plate reprints (like the ones from La Mode Illustree) or browse through the late 1870's/early 1880's links on this page: http://demode.tweedlebop.com/realvict.html#1870 - Kendra http://demode.tweedlebop.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 23:09:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8M39cIO004572 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:09:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M38t76007078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:08:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M38rjh012895; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:08:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp-int-02.mx.pitdc1.stargate.net (smtp-int-02.mx.pitdc1.stargate.net [206.210.69.156]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M38mji012823 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK) for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:08:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 2610 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2003 03:08:46 -0000 Received: from dap-208-166-66-5.erie-tnt-1.pa.erie.net (HELO castlebooks) ([208.166.66.5]) (envelope-sender )SMTP for ; 22 Sep 2003 03:08:46 -0000 Message-ID: <005e01c380b6$d815b3d0$0542a6d0@castlebooks> From: "Janet Davis" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> <3F6CADE6.6000502@grics.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Celtic and Tudor knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:07:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8M39cIO004572 Roy Strong, in his book The Renaissance Garden in England, briefly discusses the Tudor love for flat intertwined patterns, since this is the basis for that lovely Tudor invention, the knot garden. He says "Knots were known in the fifteenth century but it is only with the expansion of gardening under the early Tudors and with the influence of France that their full potential was realized." He quotes a poem from 1509 by Stephen Hawes: "Than in we wente to the garden gloryous, Lyke to a place of pleasure most solacyous. Wyth Flora paynted and wrought curyously, In divers knottes of marvaylous gretenes...." Henry VIII had planted "elaboratedly patterned knots carried out on a large scale..." in the 1530's. "There are no surviving designs for early Tudor knots or mazes and the earliest appear in Thomas Hill's The Profitable Art of Gardening (1568) and Didymus Mountain's The Gardeners Labyrinth (1571). These are of the same type as those that appear in the Gaillon engraving and all are closely related to designs which appear on carpets and embroidery." He mentions one Thomas Trevelyon who worked during the reign of James I and devised designs for embroidery, woodworking and knot gardens. By this time, knot gardens were no longer fashionable among the elite and in 1625, Francis Bacon writes: "As for the making of knots or figures, with divers coloured earths that they may lie under the windows of the house on that side which the garden stands, they be but toys; you may see as good sights many times in tarts." Strong feels that the isolation of England from the artistic trends in Italy (due to religious conflict) led to the dominance in many arts of two-dimensional geometric patterns, with embroidery being the most promient. Neither the Welsh or the Irish are mentioned but apparently we should not be surprised by the appearence of "knotwork" on any Tudor clothes or furnishings. Janet Davis Janet Davis Castle Furnishings http://www.medievalbookstore.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 21 23:25:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8M3PgIO004618 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:25:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M3P276007797 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:25:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M3P0jh019827; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:25:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8M3Ovjh019806 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:24:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.78]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:23:27 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Celtic and Tudor knotwork Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:25:12 -0400 Message-ID: <000201c380b9$2356ebf0$4e48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <005e01c380b6$d815b3d0$0542a6d0@castlebooks> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Strong feels that the isolation of England from the artistic trends in Italy (due to religious conflict) led to the dominance in many arts of two-dimensional geometric patterns, with embroidery being the most promient. Neither the Welsh or the Irish are mentioned but apparently we should not be surprised by the appearence of "knotwork" on any Tudor clothes or furnishings. >>>> *Tudor* knotwork. Well there's a thought! Thanks for the wonderful information, Janet. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 09:00:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MD03IO011690 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:00:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MCwX76027378 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:58:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MCwOQq001739; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:58:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MCwMQq001726 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:58:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-41-252.jps.net ([209.165.41.252] helo=pavilion) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1QGe-0005u1-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:58:19 -0700 Message-ID: <003401c38109$86628c40$fc29a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <002001c38079$edda2300$856453d8@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:00:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com The reason people assume that a particular motif from architecture would also be used for costume is that this is the generally the case. Design trends tend to permeate through architecture, fonts, clothing designs, gardens etc. Clothing and architecture especially go hand in hand and this is one of the first things taught in fashion design courses, although not courses for museum quality reproductions :-) I do appreciate that when one desires to make a historically accurate garment that the specific details of this assumption should be checked for evidence of occurrence, but a respectable starting hypothesis would be that yes this design would be found in both instances. It might not be, but it is much more reasonable to assume it would than it would not. Generally speaking. Lisa Sinervo www.thrednedlestrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 12:52 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knotwork > It always annoys me, by the way, when people assume that a particular > motif > from architecture was used for costume without evidence. Certainly it > could > have been, but the mere presence of the motif in architecture doesn't > mean it was used elsewhere. > >>>> > You and I are of one mind on that subject, Cathy. I mean, if you want > to design a costume that isn't based on historical models and give it a > Celtic "feel", sure. Add some interlaced doggies from the Book of > Kells. But just because a motif is used in one medium by a culture, > doesn't mean it was used in all of them. > > Kass > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 09:16:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MDG0IO011734 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:16:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDFM76028082 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:15:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDFKQq008662; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:15:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14006.mail.yahoo.com (web14006.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8MDFHQq008637 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:15:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030922131517.50625.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14006.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:15:17 BST Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:15:17 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <003401c38109$86628c40$fc29a5d1@pavilion> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com In the case of knot-work, there are enough surviving pieces of leather, belt buckles, brooches, scabbards and horse harness with knot-work decoration that we are probably safe in saying that Celtic types used knot-work on their garments as well. At least up until the 11th century. Evidence after that gets iffy. Dr. Anne Ross's books give plenty of documentation on the archaeological evidence. --- Lisa Sinervo wrote: > The reason people assume that a particular motif > from architecture would > also be used for costume is that this is the > generally the case. Design > trends tend to permeate through architecture, fonts, > clothing designs, > gardens etc. Clothing and architecture especially > go hand in hand and this > is one of the first things taught in fashion design > courses, although not > courses for museum quality reproductions :-) > > I do appreciate that when one desires to make a > historically accurate > garment that the specific details of this assumption > should be checked for > evidence of occurrence, but a respectable starting > hypothesis would be that > yes this design would be found in both instances. > It might not be, but it > is much more reasonable to assume it would than it > would not. Generally > speaking. > > Lisa Sinervo > www.thrednedlestrete.com > > > ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 09:19:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MDJ4IO011745 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:19:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDID76028234 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:18:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDICQq010284; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:18:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDI9Qq010254 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:18:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.45]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:16:37 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:18:05 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c3810b$f5e6c1b0$2d6453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003401c38109$86628c40$fc29a5d1@pavilion> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I do appreciate that when one desires to make a historically accurate garment that the specific details of this assumption should be checked for evidence of occurrence, but a respectable starting hypothesis would be that yes this design would be found in both instances. It might not be, but it is much more reasonable to assume it would than it would not. Generally speaking. >>>> I don't think this statement is based on anything more than assumption based upon personal experience with the relationship between motifs in clothing and architecture. Lack of evidence against the existence of a design motif does not constitute proof for it. This is like trying to prove a negative. And it's bad scholarship. I'd really like to know upon what grounds you are stating that this is "generally the case". My experience wildly differs from that. Is it perhaps generally the case in late 19th century art and architecture? In the decorative techniques of the Aztecs? In 10th century Japan? No proof means no proof. The end. Perhaps the first thing that gets taught in fashion design courses isn't historically sound. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 09:31:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MDVaIO011815 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:31:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDUh76028908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:30:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDUgQq015757; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:30:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDUbQq015700 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:30:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.171]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:29:05 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:30:33 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c3810d$b3c33aa0$2d6453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030922131517.50625.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com In the case of knot-work, there are enough surviving pieces of leather, belt buckles, brooches, scabbards and horse harness with knot-work decoration that we are probably safe in saying that Celtic types used knot-work on their garments as well. At least up until the 11th century. Evidence after that gets iffy. Dr. Anne Ross's books give plenty of documentation on the archaeological evidence. >>>> No. We aren't. Not unless there are surviving sample on clothing. This is exactly what Robin and Heather and I are talking about -- the presumption that leather, metal and stone decorative techniques equate to embroidery or other cloth embellishment techniques. You simply cannot make that leap with any certainty. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 09:55:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MDtmIO011854 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:55:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDso76000514 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:54:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDsnQq028394; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:54:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MDslQq028374 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:54:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-41-252.jps.net ([209.165.41.252] helo=pavilion) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1R9G-0007hF-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:54:45 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c38111$68b18f40$fc29a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000d01c3810b$f5e6c1b0$2d6453d8@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:56:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm not actually disagreeing with you as to what you will find when you finish your investigations. I'm just stating that when someone has some bright idea in their head that "I'd like to make blah blah blah" and sees some motif of a period, it's not a waste of time, but in fact a great beginning to see if it actually occurs in the other media they wish to translate it to. Then of course they might find the motif is reserved for religious, ceremonial purposes, or whatever and may decide against it. I meet quite a few people who are really interested in making more historically accurate garments and a good starting point for creative expansion is to start to incorporate motifs from the period. It might not be a museum quality garment, but growth comes in stages. After awhile, one starts to notices that this motif here looks out of place there. It doesn't happen over night, but most of us would go around nude for years if we waited until we had enough knowledge to make a museum quality garment before we picked up a needle. And you don't know what you don't know until you know. Perhaps I associate with another crowd of people than some of you on the list here so I am less inclined to be "annoyed" by the "mistakes" of others. Cheers, Lisa Sinervo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 6:18 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knotwork > I do appreciate that when one desires to make a historically accurate > garment that the specific details of this assumption should be checked > for > evidence of occurrence, but a respectable starting hypothesis would be > that > yes this design would be found in both instances. It might not be, but > it > is much more reasonable to assume it would than it would not. Generally > speaking. > >>>> > I don't think this statement is based on anything more than assumption > based upon personal experience with the relationship between motifs in > clothing and architecture. Lack of evidence against the existence of a > design motif does not constitute proof for it. This is like trying to > prove a negative. And it's bad scholarship. I'd really like to know > upon what grounds you are stating that this is "generally the case". My > experience wildly differs from that. Is it perhaps generally the case > in late 19th century art and architecture? In the decorative techniques > of the Aztecs? In 10th century Japan? > > No proof means no proof. The end. > > Perhaps the first thing that gets taught in fashion design courses isn't > historically sound. > > Kass > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 13:07:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MH7hIO012791 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:07:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MH5W76017721 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:05:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MH5MrL021874; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:05:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from orval.sprint.ca (orval.sprint.ca [209.5.194.98]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MH5HrL021794 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:05:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shooie ([149.99.69.3]) by orval.sprint.ca (InterMail vM.5.01.02.00 201-253-122-103-101-20001108) with SMTP id <20030922170516.QUNG11123.orval.sprint.ca@shooie> for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:05:16 -0400 Message-ID: <008f01c3812b$acc87120$cb6afea9@shooie> From: "Sheridan & Shane" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:05:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kass McGann > I'm wondering if this writer even knew about pattens, clogs etc. Anyone > > know when the high heels with the *toe on the ground* came in? > >>>> > Hi Edwina. > > I can tell you that there is an extant shoe from the 1650s or 60s in the > V&A and it has a raised heel. It's built like a modern mule: vamp, > sole, no back. There is a heel that is higher than the toe, but I doubt > if it is more than 2" high. > > I don't know if there are any extant 16th century shoes. Anyone? > > Kass Greetings all! I had a look at the Bata Shoe Museum's website, didn't find anything from the 1500's. They may have some examples at the museum, they just don't have it posted on their site. They do however, have a few online examples of 17th C shoes: http://www.batashoemuseum.ca/collectindex.html Hope this helps. Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 14:10:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MIA7IO013067 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:10:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MI8n76023632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:08:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MI8Ujs018618; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:08:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41507.mail.yahoo.com (web41507.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8MI8Rjs018500 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:08:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030922180822.67044.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [193.237.15.43] by web41507.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:08:22 BST Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:08:22 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <008f01c3812b$acc87120$cb6afea9@shooie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --- Sheridan & Shane wrote: > > > I don't know if there are any extant 16th century shoes. Anyone? > > > > Kass What about Queen Elizabeth's buskins in the Ashmolean? I took pictures of those. There's another pretty white kid pair of heeled shoes in the same museum, have photos too. Nicole ===== Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ Email: nicole@kipar.org URL: http://www.kipar.org ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 15:23:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MJNGIO013851 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:23:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJLo76003835 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:21:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJLgBQ026178; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:21:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJLaBQ026065 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:21:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.133.149.185] (pm5-185.eos.net [205.133.149.185]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MJLTuT027053 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:21:30 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:14:13 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200309220030.h8M0UaMw009945@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver running MimeDefang and SPAMAssassin Subject: [h-cost] Re: nicole's amazon costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Nicole: Thanks for posting those pictures of your Amazon costumes! How fun! It looks like you all had a wonderful time. I have to say, the picture that struck me most was quite different ... I loved the daytime outfit of the woman named Ulli, the one with the white hood, especially in that shot of her standing in profile, with her apron on and her hood completely covering her face. It looks so charming. I think that's what I like most about seeing people in accurate historic costume -- you see something that you've seen before in paintings or drawings, and suddenly you see it for real (or in a photo) from a different angle, and you think: Wow! So THAT was the idea! You just understand the point of a garment or an outfit or a whole overall look. To me it's like dancing. I used to do a lot of historic dance, and there's such a difference between hearing a dance tune and enjoying the melody, and hearing a dance tune and knowing in your bones what it's for and how to move. Thus endeth my little lecture for today. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 15:37:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MJbgIO013886 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:37:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJaa76006236 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:36:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJaYBQ010181; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:36:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJaVBQ010138 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:36:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1WU2-0000MG-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:36:31 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:36:43 -0700 Message-ID: <002301c38140$dab83060$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a plastic one would probably do since it is a renfair corset. Thanks Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 15:41:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MJfMIO013908 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:41:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJeN76006915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:40:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJeMBQ013796; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:40:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJeJBQ013723 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:40:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-41-252.jps.net ([209.165.41.252] helo=pavilion) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1WXh-0005zk-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:40:17 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c38141$aca11100$fc29a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000d01c3810b$f5e6c1b0$2d6453d8@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:42:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'd really like to know upon what grounds you are stating that this is "generally the case". My > experience wildly differs from that. Is it perhaps generally the case > in late 19th century art and architecture? In the decorative techniques > of the Aztecs? In 10th century Japan? > the clothing of Some American Indians often reminds me of TeePee's :) the sixties dress which was a take off of Mondoline's (or something like that) painting looks quite a bit like Frank Llyod Wright's glasshouse of the same era the gothic fitted dress is slender and lean like gothic cathedrals Australian aboriginal traditional garb is as sparce as their homes Victorian parlors were as cluttered with bows and lace some of the dresses seventies free flowing garments coinsided with the openspace living areas in homes I am only talking about a starting point for a design process. Lisa Sinervo www.ThrednedleStrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 15:52:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MJq8IO013923 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:52:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJp076008744 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:51:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJowBQ024029; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:50:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJorBQ023781 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:50:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 301476 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:50:47 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:55:02 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002301c38140$dab83060$6501a8c0@SG01> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Farthingale in Canada has them. http://www.farthingales.on.ca/ Quick service, pleasant people. While looking at prices, please remember they're in Canadian dollars, not USD. Lynn VERY satisfied customer On 9/22/03 12:36 PM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote: > Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a plastic one > would probably do since it is a renfair corset. > > > > Thanks > > > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 16:04:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MK49IO013949 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:04:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJw776009991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:58:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJvxZe000909; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:57:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJvrZe000786 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:57:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1Woi-0005RA-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:57:52 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:58:05 -0700 Message-ID: <002901c38143$d6bae3b0$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hmm, I didn't find them in their catalogue. I just found the metal ones with studs for center front openings....I am just looking for the rounded triangular ones. Did I miss something? Sg -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Downward Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:55 PM To: h costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Farthingale in Canada has them. http://www.farthingales.on.ca/ Quick service, pleasant people. While looking at prices, please remember they're in Canadian dollars, not USD. Lynn VERY satisfied customer On 9/22/03 12:36 PM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote: > Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a plastic one > would probably do since it is a renfair corset. > > > > Thanks > > > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 16:04:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MK4NIO013952 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:04:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJwO76010050 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:58:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJwNZe001317; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:58:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MJwKZe001246 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:58:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.116]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:56:49 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:58:14 -0500 Message-ID: <001601c38143$dca022e0$496453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <002301c38140$dab83060$6501a8c0@SG01> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Grannd.com sells wooden busks. -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf Sent: 22 September 2003 2:37 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a plastic one would probably do since it is a renfair corset. Thanks Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 16:05:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MK5DIO013958 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:05:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MK2k76010622 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:02:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MK2jZe005257; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:02:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MK2hZe005230 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:02:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.116]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:01:12 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:02:38 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c38144$79e11820$496453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <001401c38141$aca11100$fc29a5d1@pavilion> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Lisa said: <> I can certainly accept an architecturally-inspired starting point for a design process, Lisa. But when you are replicating a historic costume, you're not really "designing" anything. So we must only use that for which we have proof or give up the idea of historicity altogether. As I think I said earlier, you can do a great "Celtic design" costume. But if you want to make a 16th century Scottish outfit, you cannot embroider it with design you saw in an Irish 10th century manuscript. See where I'm coming from? Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 16:05:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MK5NIO013961 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:05:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MK4I76010757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:04:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MK4HZe006713; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:04:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MK4EZe006631 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:04:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 301513 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:04:09 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:08:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002901c38143$d6bae3b0$6501a8c0@SG01> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com You're right. I'm sorry for sending you bad information. They have all the metal parts for corsetry but not the wooden (or plastic) busks. For everything else, they're spectacular. LynnD On 9/22/03 12:58 PM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote: > Hmm, I didn't find them in their catalogue. I just found the metal ones > with studs for center front openings....I am just looking for the rounded > triangular ones. Did I miss something? > > Sg > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On > Behalf Of Lynn Downward > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:55 PM > To: h costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > Farthingale in Canada has them. http://www.farthingales.on.ca/ > > Quick service, pleasant people. While looking at prices, please remember > they're in Canadian dollars, not USD. > > Lynn > VERY satisfied customer > > > On 9/22/03 12:36 PM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote: > >> Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a plastic > one >> would probably do since it is a renfair corset. >> >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Sg >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 16:10:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MKAVIO013975 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:10:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MK9Q76011255 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MK9PZe010926; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:09:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MK9LZe010842 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:09:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.116]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:07:36 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:08:52 -0500 Message-ID: <001901c38145$5e9efc70$496453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <002901c38143$d6bae3b0$6501a8c0@SG01> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Voila: http://www.grannd.com/busks.shtml#wood_busk Page down a bit. The straight busks are first. The triangular ones are under them. Kass -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf Sent: 22 September 2003 2:58 PM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Hmm, I didn't find them in their catalogue. I just found the metal ones with studs for center front openings....I am just looking for the rounded triangular ones. Did I miss something? Sg -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Lynn Downward Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:55 PM To: h costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Farthingale in Canada has them. http://www.farthingales.on.ca/ Quick service, pleasant people. While looking at prices, please remember they're in Canadian dollars, not USD. Lynn VERY satisfied customer On 9/22/03 12:36 PM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote: > Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a plastic one > would probably do since it is a renfair corset. > > > > Thanks > > > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 16:16:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MKG2IO014006 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:16:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MKA976011315 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:10:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MKA8Ze011589; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:10:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8MKA6Ze011552 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:10:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 68909 invoked by uid 1005); 22 Sep 2003 20:09:45 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 1.434695 secs); 22 Sep 2003 20:09:45 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 1.434695 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 22 Sep 2003 20:09:43 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:09:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <002901c38143$d6bae3b0$6501a8c0@SG01> Message-ID: <20030922160836.E30658-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [h-cost] Triangular busks X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Here's a question--every extant busk I've seen, and every corset that has a pocket for a busk, has shown the busk to be untapered--just a straight length of material. How did the triangular or tapered busk concept first come into being? I know when I started out in costuming, I for some reason assumed this was how busks looked. Drea On Mon, 22 Sep 2003, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > Hmm, I didn't find them in their catalogue. I just found the metal ones > with studs for center front openings....I am just looking for the rounded > triangular ones. Did I miss something? > > Sg > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On > Behalf Of Lynn Downward > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:55 PM > To: h costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > Farthingale in Canada has them. http://www.farthingales.on.ca/ > > Quick service, pleasant people. While looking at prices, please remember > they're in Canadian dollars, not USD. > > Lynn > VERY satisfied customer > > > On 9/22/03 12:36 PM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote: > > > Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a plastic > one > > would probably do since it is a renfair corset. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Sg > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 16:25:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MKP4IO014024 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:25:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MKKB76012257 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:20:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MKK8Ze020694; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:20:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MKK4Ze020657 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:20:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1XAC-00022c-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:20:04 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:20:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c38146$f077e930$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <002901c38143$d6bae3b0$6501a8c0@SG01> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [Sg] Thanks for the lead...Sorry I can't help with the answer to Drea's question though. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 17:11:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MLBdIO014207 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:11:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MLAm76016907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:10:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MLAhKB005687; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:10:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.primushost.com (smtp2.primushost.com [209.58.220.66]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MLAcKC005547 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:10:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell3.shore.net [207.244.124.103] by smtp2.primushost.com with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim) id 1A1Y1N-0007DB-2p; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:15:01 -0400 Received: from vintage by shell3.shore.net with local (Exim) for id 1A1Xxa-0001CJ-00; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:11:06 -0400 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:11:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Katy Bishop To: Sarah Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help with Bustles In-Reply-To: <66B51F2B-EC9A-11D7-AC7E-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: h-costume@indra.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com A wonderful petticoat was up on ebay recently from the late 1870's: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2856139485&category=48864&rd=1 It's got some good detailed pictures. I'm dying to make one like it. Katy Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 17:32:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MLW1IO014240 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:32:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MLV676018911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:31:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MLV3KB023574; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:31:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thorin.grics.net (thorin.grics.net [64.40.67.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MLUsKB023411 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:30:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grics.net (66-79-58-66.dsl.dixnil.grics.net [66.79.58.66]) by thorin.grics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFABA43175 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:30:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3F6F6B22.9040506@grics.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:35:30 -0500 From: "H. Law" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork References: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> <3F6CADE6.6000502@grics.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I sit corrected, it looks like - I can't find that book on welsh garb for the life of me, and it may be outdated by now anyway. As I said I was repeating someone else's comment on the knotwork on Henry 8's costume - more for a thought to bat around than as A Fact. My apologies for misleading anyone - back to the books I go Heather L Heather Rose Jones wrote: > At 2:43 PM -0500 9/20/03, H. Law wrote: > >> Don't remember who, but someone said the Celtic knotwork in the Henry >> 8 portrait was probably a conscious thing connected with henry's >> welsh ancestry. I've never seen "Celtic Knotwork" on pre-Henry >> celtic/gaelic garb before, but some Norse stuff had similar work. >> often animal-interlace. (Those cute little eely things in the book of >> kells are a great -*legitimate*- excuse for the really intense >> knotwork - just stick a little head on one end, taper off the other >> one for a tail and away you go!:-P ) > > > > I know I'm coming in a little late on this one, but I'll add my voice > to those who note that it can be badly misleading to think of _all_ > interlace/strapwork-type motifs as "Celtic knotwork". Even during the > heyday of early medieval Irish manuscript art, interlace designs -- > whether zoomorphic or not -- were not at all confined to > Celtic-speaking regions. And there seems no reason to connect late > medieval/renaissance strapwork designs -- whether in Britain or the > Mediterranean region -- with the artistic context of the early Irish > manuscripts. > > Here's a question: _Why_ would it be reasonable to think that Henry > VIII would consider using strapwork/interlace as an expression of his > Welsh ancestry? I know of no reason to believe that a late medieval > Welsh person would consider such motifs to be peculiarly associated > with his culture or to be an expression of it. The expansion of early > insular manuscript art to being an icon of "Celticity" is a modern > phenomenon. > > >> There is also the Spanish-Moorish textiles where the interlace motif >> is allovertheplace. The Book of Kells-type stuff is thought to have >> arrived through traveling early-xtian monks who had access to Coptic >> manuscripts in Egypt, where the moorish and african influence on >> design was strong. > > > > To the best of my knowledge, any theories about Egyptian origins of > early Insular manuscript styles are not widely accepted in the Celtic > academic community. Since there's a reasonable continuity of style > from pre-Christian artwork (e.g., in metal) of the La Tene style up > through the Irish manuscript art of the early medieval period, I'm not > sure why there would be a need to look as far afield as Egypt for an > explanation of those artistic styles. > > >> If you're looking for interlace designs on clothes, try a Nordic >> influence, or someone who has travelled to Spain. (Spain would also >> open up allover designs for you to use.) >> There is, or was, a publication by someone in SCA (actually several >> of them!) that showed some embroidery from Welsh garb; > > > As far as I'm aware (and I pay attention to things like this), there > is only one (1) surviving example of embroidery from medieval Wales -- > a 10th century piece in silk on linen (although it survived in > completely carbonized form) whose strongest artistic connections seem > to be with imported silks from the East, involving stylized "lions", > and birds enclosed in hexagonal frames of vegetation. No real > resemblance to local vernacular art at all. If you're aware of some > other surviving pieces of medieval Welsh embroidery, I'd desperately > like to have leads on them. > > Heather _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 19:01:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MN1oIO014736 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:01:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MN1576026388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:01:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MN13cV006638; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:01:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8MN0xcV006555 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:00:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-122-228-23.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@67.122.228.23 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2003 22:46:33 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:44:30 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Triangular busks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Sarah To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20030922160836.E30658-100000@shell.siscom.net> Message-Id: <53EF9068-ED4E-11D7-8499-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 01:09 PM, Drea Leed wrote: > Here's a question--every extant busk I've seen, and every corset that > has > a pocket for a busk, has shown the busk to be untapered--just a > straight > length of material. How did the triangular or tapered busk concept > first > come into being? I know when I started out in costuming, I for some > reason assumed this was how busks looked. Isn't that a Winter & Savoy-ism? My copy has gone AWOL, but I seem to remember seeing a drawing depicting a triangular shaped busk in the corset section. As with the majority of that book, I have no idea where they got the idea from... :P Sarah http://www.elizabethanlady.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 19:25:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MNPFIO014867 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:25:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNOO76028289 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:24:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNOMcV022593; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:24:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNOJcV022545 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:24:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.133.149.184] (pm5-184.eos.net [205.133.149.184]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MNOHuT014713 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:24:18 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:16:59 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200309222301.h8MN1scW007311@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver running MimeDefang and SPAMAssassin Subject: [h-cost] Re: source needed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I am looking for a company that prints words on ribbon, in rather large quantities but not retail quantities. Has anyone ever dealt with a company they recommend? Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 19:31:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MNVLIO014885 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:31:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNUf76028819 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:30:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNUecV026950; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.187]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8MNUacV026912 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:30:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-122-228-23.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@67.122.228.23 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 2003 23:16:13 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:14:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Triangular busks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Sarah To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <53EF9068-ED4E-11D7-8499-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> Message-Id: <7863B8B9-ED52-11D7-8499-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > >> Here's a question--every extant busk I've seen, and every corset that >> has >> a pocket for a busk, has shown the busk to be untapered--just a >> straight >> length of material. How did the triangular or tapered busk concept >> first >> come into being? I know when I started out in costuming, I for some >> reason assumed this was how busks looked. > > Isn't that a Winter & Savoy-ism? My copy has gone AWOL, but I seem to > remember seeing a drawing depicting a triangular shaped busk in the > corset section. As with the majority of that book, I have no idea > where they got the idea from... :P I was tooling through the Lacis online catalog and came across a slightly triangular shaped wooden busk (anyone still looking for a wooden one, btw? Check out http://www.lacis.com/catalog/data/descn_s.html#costume). It's odd, but other than Lacis and possibly W&S, I can't remember seeing any triangular busks about. Anyone else? Sarah http://www.elizabethanlady.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 19:31:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MNVhIO014888 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:31:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNVF76028875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:31:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNVEcV027386; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:31:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNVCcV027284 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:31:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 302058 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:31:05 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:35:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: source needed From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I've never done this myself, but I've been to many weddings where the names of the bride/groom and wedding date were printed on ribbon. Could you check where invitations are printed? LynnD Hoping this is better info than I had earlier. On 9/22/03 4:16 PM, "Gail & Scott Finke" wrote: > > I am looking for a company that prints words on ribbon, in rather large > quantities but not retail quantities. Has anyone ever dealt with a company > they recommend? > > Gail Finke > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 19:36:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MNaNIO014908 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:36:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNZb76029202 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:35:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNZacV029990; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:35:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from balin.grics.net (balin.grics.net [64.40.67.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNZWcV029950 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:35:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grics.net (66-79-58-66.dsl.dixnil.grics.net [66.79.58.66]) by balin.grics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8AE421A1 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:35:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3F6F883E.8090900@grics.net> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:39:42 -0500 From: "H. Law" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] NY Times Op Ed "article" response References: <1CB7B8B4-EBE6-11D7-B8B5-000393D446D6@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <1CB7B8B4-EBE6-11D7-B8B5-000393D446D6@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hum... Will it work if *I* do it? I live in Illinois... Edwinna/Heather L (sorry about name-switch, I'm in SCA too) Allison wrote: >> I wonder about writing an op-ed letter of our own, asking if the writer >> of this thing has doc, We'd Be Very Interested To Know > > Do it, Edwinna! If you'll write it, I'll be among those who sign it. > As one of those who are "Interested To Know" I prefer FACTS in my > newspaper "articles" - I can find plenty of pop culture trivia and/or > speculation in magazines. > Allison P. > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 19:45:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8MNjbIO014944 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:45:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNil76029936 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:44:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNikcV005407; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:44:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8MNibcW005258 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:44:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8MNoo0q021138 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:50:50 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F6F898C.5020603@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:45:16 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: source needed References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Gail & Scott Finke wrote: > I am looking for a company that prints words on ribbon, in rather large > quantities but not retail quantities. Has anyone ever dealt with a company > they recommend? Look for companies that do logo/promotional items (mugs, keychains, etc) -- they often have ribbons (yardage) of various qualities as one of the customizeable things. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 20:26:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N0QnIO015221 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:26:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N0Na76002286 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:23:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N0NXn6027933; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:23:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lakemtao04.cox.net (lakemtao04.cox.net [68.1.17.241]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N0NTn6027852 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:23:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from VMAAHQ ([68.96.201.18]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20030923002323.PWJP29227.lakemtao04.cox.net@VMAAHQ>; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:23:23 -0400 From: "Linda Rice" To: , , Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:23:12 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c38168$e2cea040$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Subject: [h-cost] Funeral Shield of HenryV X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If you can get there, check this out: "Among the medieval treasures of gold, silver, ivory and gems being heaped up for a major exhibition on Gothic art at the V&A Museum is a scruffy object which would not attract attention at a car boot sale. "the reverse of the shield....is covered with some of the oldest Chinese silk in Europe, of imperial quality, which was already antique when the shield was made. V&A experts believe the silk may have been part of a consignment of astounding quality, which presumably came into northern Europe from Tartar-ruled China along the ancient Silk Road, in the early 14th century - at a time when historians had believed the direct trade link was broken." http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1046836,00.html ::Linda:: _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 20:47:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N0lRIO015264 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:47:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N0kq76003633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:46:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N0kpn6010336; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:46:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N0knn7010314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:46:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8N0kxN2020361 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:47:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8N0kxMu020359 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:46:59 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:46:59 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030922131517.50625.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030922131517.50625.qmail@web14006.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309222046.59489.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Monday 22 September 2003 09:15 am, Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: > In the case of knot-work, there are enough surviving > pieces of leather, belt buckles, brooches, scabbards > and horse harness with knot-work decoration that we > are probably safe in saying that Celtic types used > knot-work on their garments as well. At least up until > the 11th century. Evidence after that gets iffy. Dr. > Anne Ross's books give plenty of documentation on the > archaeological evidence. Really? I never heard that before. I'll have to look Dr. Ross up. Thanks. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 21:22:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N1MpIO015311 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:22:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N1MJ76005464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:22:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N1MIPt028117; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:22:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N1MEPt028096 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:22:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-51-208.jps.net ([209.165.51.208] helo=pavilion) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1bsb-00020s-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:22:14 -0700 Message-ID: <004401c38171$8cd717e0$d033a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:25:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kass wrote: > > I don't know if there are any extant 16th century shoes. Anyone? > The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from Mary Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm . A low heel and VERY small, like a modern US size 4 would be my guess. I see quite a few 16th century leather possible turnsole shoes on the antiquities market, but not much else. Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 21:48:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N1mSIO015349 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:48:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N1lw76006792 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:47:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N1lvPt010476; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:47:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N1ltPt010461 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:47:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1cHS-0002DP-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:47:54 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Triangular busks Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:48:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c38174$bd4522c0$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <7863B8B9-ED52-11D7-8499-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Oh yes, and that is a good price...Thanks I'd forgotten that they sold corsetry stuffs. And Grand Garb has them as well. __________________________ I was tooling through the Lacis online catalog and came across a slightly triangular shaped wooden busk (anyone still looking for a wooden one, btw? Check out http://www.lacis.com/catalog/data/descn_s.html#costume). It's odd, but other than Lacis and possibly W&S, I can't remember seeing any triangular busks about. Anyone else? Sarah http://www.elizabethanlady.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 21:54:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N1s0IO015355 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:54:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N1rO76007059 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:53:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N1rNPt013060; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:53:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N1rKPt013033 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:53:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.65]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:51:49 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:53:13 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c38175$73724050$4148ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <004401c38171$8cd717e0$d033a5d1@pavilion> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from Mary Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm. A low heel and VERY small, like a modern US size 4 would be my guess. I see quite a few 16th century leather possible turnsole shoes on the antiquities market, but not much else. >>>> Thanks for the info, Lisa. I really appreciate the edification. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 22:03:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N23SIO015378 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:03:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N21g76007437 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:01:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N21fJT016951; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:01:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav27.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N21eJT016907 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:01:35 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav27.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:01:34 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass> <004401c38171$8cd717e0$d033a5d1@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:03:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2003 02:01:35.0328 (UTC) FILETIME=[9DFDB600:01C38176] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Sinervo" > The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from Mary > Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm > . A low heel and VERY small, like a modern US size 4 would be my guess. Well, a US size 4 is not that small, I'm 5'3" and I wear a size 5. My mom is 5'2" and wears a size 4. And weren't people "back then" supposed to be slightly smaller than us? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 22:31:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N2VDIO015464 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:31:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2US76009073 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:30:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2URJT002095; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:30:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2UOJT002061 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:30:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sdn-ap-006tnnashp0508.dialsprint.net ([63.185.49.254] helo=earthlink.net) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1cwX-0007eW-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:30:23 -0700 Message-ID: <410-2200392232274950@earthlink.net> X-Priority: X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2003.1.12.0 (Windows) From: "Christine Bonder" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:27:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-ELNK-Trace: 6ebfef0e944f11551aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79196e4dd337398bbfb9306909320dc582350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I got my wooden busk from Grannd Garb (www.grannd.com...I think.) I like it a lot. Christine Bonder Dayton, OH >^..^< - proudly owned by cats since 1993 > [Original Message] > From: Saragrace T. Knauf > To: > Date: 9/22/03 3:36:43 PM > Subject: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a plastic one > would probably do since it is a renfair corset. > > > > Thanks > > > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 22:33:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N2X5IO015467 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:33:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2WW76009155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:32:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2WVJT003051; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:32:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2WTJT003027 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:32:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-51-208.jps.net ([209.165.51.208] helo=pavilion) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1cyW-0001ZG-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:32:26 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c3817b$5684a540$d033a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass><004401c38171$8cd717e0$d033a5d1@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:35:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com it's all perspective. I wear a 10, remember poerfect catwalk feet if I only had four toes!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lisa Sinervo" > > The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from Mary > > Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see > www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm > > . A low heel and VERY small, like a modern US size 4 would be my guess. > > Well, a US size 4 is not that small, I'm 5'3" and I wear a size 5. My mom is > 5'2" and wears a size 4. And weren't people "back then" supposed to be > slightly smaller than us? > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 22:33:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N2XCIO015470 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:33:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2Wh76009176 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:32:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2WhJT003139; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:32:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2WdJT003108 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:32:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-51-208.jps.net ([209.165.51.208] helo=pavilion) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1cyh-0001xn-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:32:37 -0700 Message-ID: <001401c3817b$5fa64ac0$d033a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass><004401c38171$8cd717e0$d033a5d1@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:35:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com it's all perspective. I wear a 10, remember perfect catwalk feet if I only had four toes!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lisa Sinervo" > > The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from Mary > > Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see > www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm > > . A low heel and VERY small, like a modern US size 4 would be my guess. > > Well, a US size 4 is not that small, I'm 5'3" and I wear a size 5. My mom is > 5'2" and wears a size 4. And weren't people "back then" supposed to be > slightly smaller than us? > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 22:34:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N2YVIO015473 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:34:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2Xr76009241 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:33:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2XrJT003765; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:33:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2XoJT003680 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:33:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a261.in-tch.com [66.62.107.61]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8N2DOp01383 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:13:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6FB18F.6326E0AF@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:35:59 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? References: <001901c38145$5e9efc70$496453d8@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Notice, though, that the straight busks are labeled for use in 1700 and 1800 era corsets, and the tapered ones are for "use with Elizabethan and Tudor era corsets." So they're tuned in to the same (mis?)information.... hmmm....curiouser and curiouser, as Alice would say.... --sue Kass McGann wrote: > > Voila: http://www.grannd.com/busks.shtml#wood_busk > Page down a bit. The straight busks are first. The triangular ones > are under them. > > Kass > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf > Sent: 22 September 2003 2:58 PM > To: 'Historical Costume' > Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > Hmm, I didn't find them in their catalogue. I just found the metal ones > with studs for center front openings....I am just looking for the > rounded > triangular ones. Did I miss something? > > Sg > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > On > Behalf Of Lynn Downward > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:55 PM > To: h costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > Farthingale in Canada has them. http://www.farthingales.on.ca/ > > Quick service, pleasant people. While looking at prices, please remember > they're in Canadian dollars, not USD. > > Lynn > VERY satisfied customer > > On 9/22/03 12:36 PM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" > wrote: > > > Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a > plastic > one > > would probably do since it is a renfair corset. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Sg > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 22:46:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N2kTIO015518 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:46:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2jx76009908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:45:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2jvJT009548; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:45:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N2jsJT009515 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:45:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.65]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:44:23 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:45:46 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c3817c$cb084330$4148ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3F6FB18F.6326E0AF@in-tch.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Yup. But I bet she'll change that if we give her good information to the contrary. =) Kass -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sue Clemenger Sent: 22 September 2003 10:36 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Notice, though, that the straight busks are labeled for use in 1700 and 1800 era corsets, and the tapered ones are for "use with Elizabethan and Tudor era corsets." So they're tuned in to the same (mis?)information.... hmmm....curiouser and curiouser, as Alice would say.... --sue Kass McGann wrote: > > Voila: http://www.grannd.com/busks.shtml#wood_busk > Page down a bit. The straight busks are first. The triangular ones > are under them. > > Kass > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf > Sent: 22 September 2003 2:58 PM > To: 'Historical Costume' > Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > Hmm, I didn't find them in their catalogue. I just found the metal ones > with studs for center front openings....I am just looking for the > rounded > triangular ones. Did I miss something? > > Sg > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > On > Behalf Of Lynn Downward > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:55 PM > To: h costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > Farthingale in Canada has them. http://www.farthingales.on.ca/ > > Quick service, pleasant people. While looking at prices, please remember > they're in Canadian dollars, not USD. > > Lynn > VERY satisfied customer > > On 9/22/03 12:36 PM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" > wrote: > > > Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a > plastic > one > > would probably do since it is a renfair corset. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Sg > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 23:19:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N3JWIO015605 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:19:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N3J576011799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:19:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N3J3Xj025348; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:19:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N3IxXj025300 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:19:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8N3IwFp005190 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.197.39] (tnt-1-103.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.197.39]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N3IorJ005094 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F6F6B22.9040506@grics.net> References: <003301c37f96$a6e3e140$6848ccd1@Kass> <3F6CADE6.6000502@grics.net> <3F6F6B22.9040506@grics.net> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:07:42 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Celtic knotwork Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 4:35 PM -0500 9/22/03, H. Law wrote: >I sit corrected, it looks like - I can't find that book on welsh >garb for the life of me, and it may be outdated by now anyway. If you turn it up, I'd love to know -- although it's possible that you're thinking of my own publication "Medieval Welsh Clothing to 1300". Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 22 23:20:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N3KCIO015608 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:20:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N3JY76011829 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:19:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N3JYXj025673; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:19:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N3J4Xj025358 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:19:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8N3J3Fp005374 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.197.39] (tnt-1-103.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.197.39]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N3IorL005094 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000e01c3810d$b3c33aa0$2d6453d8@Kass> References: <000e01c3810d$b3c33aa0$2d6453d8@Kass> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:47:00 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knotwork Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 9:30 AM -0400 9/22/03, Kass McGann wrote: >In the case of knot-work, there are enough surviving >pieces of leather, belt buckles, brooches, scabbards >and horse harness with knot-work decoration that we >are probably safe in saying that Celtic types used >knot-work on their garments as well. At least up until >the 11th century. Evidence after that gets iffy. Dr. >Anne Ross's books give plenty of documentation on the >archaeological evidence. >>>>> >No. We aren't. Not unless there are surviving sample on clothing. >This is exactly what Robin and Heather and I are talking about -- the >presumption that leather, metal and stone decorative techniques equate >to embroidery or other cloth embellishment techniques. You simply >cannot make that leap with any certainty. And note that there's a continuum of un/certainty for extrapolations, starting out from "don't have an actual example but if one turned up tomorrow I wouldn't even blink an eye" to "would be quite interesting if an example turned up but it wouldn't require me to do major revisions of my understanding of the topic" to "plausible, but not particularly predictable from current knowledge" to "not at all predictable from current knowledge -- would revolutionize the field" to "so seriously in contradiction with our understanding of how the world works that all possible alternate explanations should be explored first". Extrapolations from one medium to another need to be considered in the larger artistic context and known connections between different crafts. For example, if you look at the heyday of Opus Anglicanum embroidery, it becomes clear that the motifs and styles used in embroidery have a strong overlap with the motifs and styles found in manuscript art. Once you've established and explored that, you can figure out how plausible it is to develop new Opus Anglicanum patterns based on manuscript art. To take a different example -- one I taught a class on this past weekend -- consider the embroideries found in the 10th c. Danish grave at Mammen. Metalwork finds in the same grave have such a characteristic ornamentation style that they gave their name to that set of motifs ... but this "Mammen artistic style" has next to no overlap with the motifs found in the embroidery. Instead, the embroidery motifs show echoes of textiles from Germany and England, or relatively universal European motifs such as acanthus scrolls. So, while it's hard to develop a theory of "Viking embroidery" based on the material from a single grave (and likely from a single garment), this one piece of evidence suggests that 10th c. Danish embroiderers were modeling their work after foreign textiles rather than local metalwork. So given this fragment of evidence, the closest place from which to extrapolate other plausible 10th c. Danish embroidery designs would be contemporary textiles available in that part of Europe. And to take yet another example, if you look at the motifs used in Coptic textiles (both the very common tapestry-woven decorations and the much rarer embroidered ones), you do find a stylistic continuity with architectural decoration -- and especially with mosaic designs. (There are a few examples where a textile can be matched with a particular surviving mosaic, suggesting that they may both have been worked from common pattern-books.) So having established this pattern, a confident source of extrapolation for other Coptic textile decorations could be contemporary mosaic designs. In each case, the culture involved has other styles and schools of decorative art available, but ones that don't have an established connection with embroidery motifs are further away on the confidence scale. That's not to say that they would be impossible or even implausible sources of extrapolation -- simply that they're further away and the level of confidence is less. We aren't saying that it would be _impossible_ that early medieval Irish embroidery might have shared a stylistic vocabulary with metalwork or leatherwork -- simply that without an actual established connection the level of confidence isn't very high. On a personal level, given the connections between embroidery and manuscript art in high-medieval England (and even pushing early-medieval if you take a look at the Maaseik (sp?) embroidery), I would consider insular manuscript art (used cautiously) to be a reasonable place to look for inspiration for early-medieval Irish embroidery. But it's about two conceptual steps removed from the current evidence. (And considering that the 10th c. Llangors embroidery appears to look quite far afield for its inspiration, it could be a wrong guess.) The important thing is to be conscious of the amount of extrapolation involved and not to mistake "plausible" for "probable". Heather ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 00:59:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N4xnIO015901 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:59:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N4xG76016945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:59:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N4x3Em013338; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:59:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N4x1Em013281 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:59:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 0020830266 (12-248-149-227.client.attbi.com[12.248.149.227]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id <2003092304585511300rlirse> (Authid: ladysarafina@att.net); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:58:55 +0000 Message-ID: <005801c3818f$4e6d53c0$e395f80c@attbi.com> From: "Sarafina Sinclair" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F6B1396.7080009@kabelfoon.nl><54002.162.119.64.111.1063987123.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> <3F6B2BEA.3060505@kabelfoon.nl> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shoulderroll question Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:58:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1123 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Deredere, The unknown girl portrait (http://costume.dm.net/gallery/images/orangegirl.jpg) with shoulder rolls is dated to 1569. I don't know if that's the one you're using, but I hope it helps. I've made shoulder rolls using the Hunnisett (sp?) pattern and I love them. I have a light layer of veil net inside of mine. They stand up based on how much you fold them on your shoulder. The netting just helps the silk (or whatever else you're using for the puffy fabric part) to stand up. You can see a picture of my rolls at http://4th.com/photo.php?dir=sca/justin/photos/2003&prefix=coronation-20030920&cols=4&count=24&start=73 (I'm at the bottom of the page with my back turned) and http://4th.com/photo.php?dir=sca/justin/photos/2003&prefix=coronation-20030920&cols=4&count=24&start=97 (I'm at the top of the page). Harlie ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lady Sarafina Sinclair, CW, APF http://ladysarafina.home.att.net > By the way does anyone knows the date of the portrait I am "recreating"? > > Greetings, > Deredere /h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 01:46:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N5kVIO016067 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 01:46:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N5gX76018683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:42:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N5gWEm003106; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:42:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector2.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector2.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.149]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N5gTEm003019 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:42:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (213-78-100-57.friaco.onetel.net.uk [213.78.100.57]) 3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AJI89307; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:40:58 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <014001c38196$057161a0$dd784ed5@pavilion> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:42:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If you have a picture of what you are after I can probably do one Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 02:08:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N68AIO018894 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:08:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N67T76019783 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:07:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N67R49013818; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:07:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (h-66-134-203-2.SNVACAID.covad.net [66.134.203.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N67N49013734 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:07:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (mac.misc.com [192.168.254.109]) by misc.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8N6E5jp011665 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:14:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3F6FE176.8070806@misc.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:00:22 -0700 From: Theresa Eacker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <000e01c38175$73724050$4148ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-servers-Metrics: net.indra.com 1049; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Well, that just does not look like a late 16th century shoe to me, more like an 18th century shoe. Could this be mislabeled somewhere along the line? I'd love some input on this shoe and its attribution!!! Thanks, Theresa Eacker Kass McGann wrote: > The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from > Mary > Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see > www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm. A low heel and VERY small, like a > modern US size 4 would be my guess. I > see quite a few 16th century leather possible turnsole shoes on the > antiquities market, but not much else. > > Thanks for the info, Lisa. I really appreciate the edification. > > Kass > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 02:08:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N68NIO018987 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:08:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N67q76019803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:07:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N67p49013961; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:07:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N67O49013683 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:07:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m109.in-tch.com [216.166.191.109]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8N5l0p26472 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6FE39F.89F3F642@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:09:35 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? References: <000001c3817c$cb084330$4148ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-MessageCare-Metrics: net.indra.com 1108; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Oh, probably, but it makes me even more curious as to where the info (incorrect or not) came from....Like someone else who posted earlier today (oops, yesterday...I'm up late tonight!), the only tapered busk I can recall seeing is in an illustration from Winter and Savoy. Thinking early corset/bodies, here, nothing 19th centuryish, which I don't really know well. --sue ;o) Kass McGann wrote: > > Yup. But I bet she'll change that if we give her good information to > the contrary. =) > > Kass > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > On Behalf Of Sue Clemenger > Sent: 22 September 2003 10:36 PM > To: Historical Costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > Notice, though, that the straight busks are labeled for use in 1700 and > 1800 era corsets, and the tapered ones are for "use with Elizabethan and > Tudor era corsets." So they're tuned in to the same > (mis?)information.... > hmmm....curiouser and curiouser, as Alice would say.... > --sue > > Kass McGann wrote: > > > > Voila: http://www.grannd.com/busks.shtml#wood_busk > > Page down a bit. The straight busks are first. The triangular ones > > are under them. > > > > Kass > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > > On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf > > Sent: 22 September 2003 2:58 PM > > To: 'Historical Costume' > > Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > > > Hmm, I didn't find them in their catalogue. I just found the metal > ones > > with studs for center front openings....I am just looking for the > > rounded > > triangular ones. Did I miss something? > > > > Sg > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > > On > > Behalf Of Lynn Downward > > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 12:55 PM > > To: h costume > > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? > > > > Farthingale in Canada has them. http://www.farthingales.on.ca/ > > > > Quick service, pleasant people. While looking at prices, please > remember > > they're in Canadian dollars, not USD. > > > > Lynn > > VERY satisfied customer > > > > On 9/22/03 12:36 PM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" > > wrote: > > > > > Anyone know where you can get wooden or bone busks? Actually a > > plastic > > one > > > would probably do since it is a renfair corset. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > Sg > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > h-costume mailing list > > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 02:17:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N6HwIO022716 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:17:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6HE76020193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:17:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6HD49017290; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:17:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.186]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8N6HA49017271 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:17:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-122-228-23.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@67.122.228.23 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2003 06:17:10 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:15:04 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Sarah To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <3F6FE39F.89F3F642@in-tch.com> Message-Id: <459B0D5F-ED8D-11D7-B97C-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 11:09 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: > Oh, probably, but it makes me even more curious as to where the info > (incorrect or not) came from....Like someone else who posted earlier > today (oops, yesterday...I'm up late tonight!), the only tapered busk I > can recall seeing is in an illustration from Winter and Savoy. > Thinking > early corset/bodies, here, nothing 19th centuryish, which I don't > really > know well. I'd look in Norris first. A lot of the stuff in Winter & Savoy turns up in various incarnations in Norris' Tudor Fashions book. I thumb through it tonight and see if I can find anything... Of course, if it does get tracked back to Norris, there's absolutely no telling where he got it from. He's miserable at citing sources. Sarah http://www.elizabethanlady.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 02:26:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N6QRIO026034 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:26:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6P17E020623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:25:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6Lq49018885; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:21:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6Lo49018833 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:21:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m109.in-tch.com [216.166.191.109]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8N61Qp00986 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:01:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F6FE702.97D739F6@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:24:02 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? References: <459B0D5F-ED8D-11D7-B97C-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I don't actually *have* a copy of Norris (laughing). I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with, though. It makes me wonder if it's not another of those Ubiquitous Costume Legends (tm) like the drawstringed/gathered sleeves on modern leine..... --sue Sarah wrote: > > On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 11:09 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: > > > Oh, probably, but it makes me even more curious as to where the info > > (incorrect or not) came from....Like someone else who posted earlier > > today (oops, yesterday...I'm up late tonight!), the only tapered busk I > > can recall seeing is in an illustration from Winter and Savoy. > > Thinking > > early corset/bodies, here, nothing 19th centuryish, which I don't > > really > > know well. > > I'd look in Norris first. A lot of the stuff in Winter & Savoy turns > up in various incarnations in Norris' Tudor Fashions book. I thumb > through it tonight and see if I can find anything... Of course, if it > does get tracked back to Norris, there's absolutely no telling where he > got it from. He's miserable at citing sources. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 02:46:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N6klIO001414 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:46:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6kM76021107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:46:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6kK49028919; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:46:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6kG49028892 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:46:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip158.174-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.174.158]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3AE16A95A for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:46:14 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:44:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Message-ID: <3F6F8947.32285.3F19C981@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > From: "Lisa Sinervo" > > The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from > > Mary Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see > www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm > > . A low heel and VERY small, like a modern US size 4 would be my > > guess. > > Well, a US size 4 is not that small, I'm 5'3" and I wear a size 5. My > mom is 5'2" and wears a size 4. And weren't people "back then" > supposed to be slightly smaller than us? In the 16th C (at least in London according to _London Bodies_) the average height for women was 5'2 1/4" (158cm). In 1998 it was 5'3 3/4" (162cm). Frankly, that's not much of a difference. Most people assume that people "back then" were much smaller because the average during the Victorian age was 5'1 1/4" (156 cm). Just for the comparison: the average height for men was 5'7 1/2"/ 172cm, during the Victorian age 5'5 1/2"/ 166cm, and in 1998 5'9"/ 175. Many people think that people further back were even smaller, but the Victorians were the smallest people from any time period studied so far. As to a size 4 shoe being small, most women in the US wear about a 7 1/2-8. The usual low size for most shoe stores is 6-6 1/2 (with those being smaller considered "specialized"). So, while you may consider yourself to be "not that small", you are. I wear a size 6 1/2 and most people consider that *that* to be fairly small. So, I suspect that most people would consider a size 4 to be "very small." Current US average height for women is about 5'6". When I was in high school it was about 5'4". If it is anything like the men, it may top out where it is or it may (like the men seem to be doing) decline a bit. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 02:47:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N6lJIO001629 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:47:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6kd76021125 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:46:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6kd49029054; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:46:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6kJ49028911 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:46:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip158.174-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.174.158]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8736A9BA for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:46:18 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:44:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Triangular busks Message-ID: <3F6F8947.26570.3F19C9FE@localhost> Priority: normal References: <002901c38143$d6bae3b0$6501a8c0@SG01> In-reply-to: <20030922160836.E30658-100000@shell.siscom.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Here's a question--every extant busk I've seen, and every corset that > has a pocket for a busk, has shown the busk to be untapered--just a > straight length of material. How did the triangular or tapered busk > concept first come into being? I know when I started out in > costuming, I for some reason assumed this was how busks looked. Tapered how? I've always seen them as basically an ivory, bone or wood (and whalebone in period) in the shape of a ruler with the tip tapered to fit into the point of the corset and the top slightly rounded with a hole in it for the busk lace. That's what the Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina corset looked like it might have had at one time. I'd like to know where people have evidence for busk knives. ;) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 02:58:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8N6waIO006501 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 02:58:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6w376021509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:58:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8N6w2vL003873; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:58:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.180]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8N6w0vL003847 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:58:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-122-228-23.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@67.122.228.23 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2003 06:57:59 -0000 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:55:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Sarah To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <3F6FE702.97D739F6@in-tch.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 11:24 PM, Sue Clemenger wrote: > I don't actually *have* a copy of Norris (laughing). > I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with, though. > It makes me wonder if it's not another of those Ubiquitous Costume > Legends (tm) like the drawstringed/gathered sleeves on modern > leine..... > --sue Well, this is what I did find in Norris, sans any kind of documentation, of course: "A less expensive contrivance was a broad slightly convex piece of wood which was used by the middle-class women to keep their busts flat , and make their figures straight and erect." --p. 623 Sounds more like the tongue depressor version of the busk than anything... Hmm. Sarah _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 06:20:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NAKFIO022423 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:20:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NAJb76029141 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:19:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NAJZER017073; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:19:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NAJXER017015 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:19:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-59-109.jps.net ([209.165.59.109] helo=pavilion) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1kGV-0007jo-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 03:19:30 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c381bc$908b7840$6d3ba5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000e01c38175$73724050$4148ccd1@Kass> <3F6FE176.8070806@misc.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 03:22:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I agree, it does look to be a much later shoe. I'll write to the museum and get some more details. I do know that H.M. Queen Mary donated a number of items to the museum when it was the Abbey Folk Park in New Barnet, UK. and it received donations from many other collectors of antiquities as well. I'll get back to you. Lisa Sinervo www.Thrednedlestrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Eacker" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 11:00 PM Subject: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article > Well, that just does not look like a late 16th century shoe to me, more > like an 18th century shoe. Could this be mislabeled somewhere along the > line? > > I'd love some input on this shoe and its attribution!!! > > Thanks, > > Theresa Eacker > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 06:36:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NAasIO022457 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:36:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NAaL76000334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:36:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NAaJER023107; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:36:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com (protactinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.176]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NAaHER023096 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:36:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host81-129-123-179.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.129.123.179] helo=dan) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 1A1kWm-00026H-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:36:16 +0100 Message-ID: <004701c381be$983538e0$b37b8151@dan> From: "Stevie Gamble" To: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:36:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [h-cost] Knotwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kass wrote: >This is exactly what Robin and Heather and I are talking about -- the >presumption that leather, metal and stone decorative techniques equate >to embroidery or other cloth embellishment techniques. You simply >cannot make that leap with any certainty. Quite so. There are specific areas where one may, perhaps, trace a very hesitant path from jewels to embroidery; Byzantium being the place I have in mind. The physical necessity of setting a gemstone requires ways of holding it down and secure, and one of the ways used very often on square or rectangular stones was a semicircular wire loop over the end of the stone. If you have 4 such stones meeting then the 4 loops create a rosette, and sure enough there appear to be rosettes galore in Byzantine embroidery. But..... The distinction between jewels and clothing, so easily made in the 21st century in Europe, America, Australasia et al, is not an eternal truth. And Byzantium , of all places, had the most superb silks heavily encrusted with precious and semiprecious stones, pearls, gold, silver and anything else which looked good. It might not be embroidered rosettes; it might well be stones attached using wire loops, looking like rosettes. And, of course, rosettes turn up all over the place; far beyond Byzantium. And the incautious might look at them with happy cries of "Oh, Byzantine influence" without pausing to ask themselves whether this may be a form which crops up as a consequence of a practical method of setting stones onto cloth, leather, gold, whatever. Or simply because someone was making shapes in their mind and thought this one looked good, or was studying geometry and noted that circles and ovals could be combined with intriguing results, or indeed a myriad other possible explanations.... best wishes Stevie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 06:56:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NAujIO022492 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:56:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NAuJ76001384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:56:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NAuIGk000598; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:56:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NAuEGk000585 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:56:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-59-109.jps.net ([209.165.59.109] helo=pavilion) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1kq0-0001Pc-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 03:56:12 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c381c1$afb5bbe0$6d3ba5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000e01c38175$73724050$4148ccd1@Kass> <3F6FE176.8070806@misc.com> <000c01c381bc$908b7840$6d3ba5d1@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 03:58:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Actually, I've just had a looks at the hoes in QEWU and it is very similar in shape to the leather sue found on page 213 dated c.1600. I'll still check though and get back to you. Lisa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 3:22 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article > I agree, it does look to be a much later shoe. I'll write to the museum and > get some more details. I do know that H.M. Queen Mary donated a number of > items to the museum when it was the Abbey Folk Park in New Barnet, UK. and > it received donations from many other collectors of antiquities as well. > I'll get back to you. > > Lisa Sinervo > www.Thrednedlestrete.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Theresa Eacker" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 11:00 PM > Subject: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article > > > > Well, that just does not look like a late 16th century shoe to me, more > > like an 18th century shoe. Could this be mislabeled somewhere along the > > line? > > > > I'd love some input on this shoe and its attribution!!! > > > > Thanks, > > > > Theresa Eacker > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 07:35:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NBZdIO022600 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:35:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NBZ176002992 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 05:35:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NBYuGk015432; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 05:34:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NBYqGk015357 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 05:34:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.91]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:33:09 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Triangular busks Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:34:35 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c381c6$aaf3d4c0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6F8947.26570.3F19C9FE@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'd like to know where people have evidence for busk knives. ;) >>>> Don't you mean "bodice daggers", Kat? Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 07:43:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NBh3IO022618 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:43:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NBgb76003185 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 05:42:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NBgaGk018239; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 05:42:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NBgXGk018215 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 05:42:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.91]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:41:01 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:42:27 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c381c7$c4363df0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F6F8947.32285.3F19C981@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Most people assume that people "back then" were much smaller because the average during the Victorian age was 5'1 1/4" (156 cm). >>>> Hi Kat! I just have to tell a funny story. When I was in Ireland a couple years ago, I was studying Irish in this town that had a "folk village". This folk village was a bunch of huts constructed in the 1950s with the intent to preserve local material culture. The truth of the matter is that they weren't preserving much of anything at all but 1950-era misperceptions about Irish history. But I digress. We were there, so we decided to take the tour. The tour was conducted by a sleepy 18-year old who rambled through her schpeel like she couldn't be bothered. And when she got to the size of beds and doorway and ceiling height, she announced that the average height in 1900 Ireland was 4'7" tall. My friends and I almost fell over laughing. But I swear we were trying to be polite. Bad info to use door and ceiling height (low to retain heat) and bed size (short but broad) to determine people's height, isn't it. By the way, my Irish-born grandfather (born in 1896) was 6'6". =) This story brought to you by the misconception shatterers. Thank you for your time. =) Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 08:02:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NC21IO022663 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:02:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NC1M76003750 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:01:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NC19Y1025219; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:01:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com (imo-r02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.98]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NC16Y1025165 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:01:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LoreleiMorte@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.de.3e4a11a0 (16335) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:00:58 -0400 (EDT) From: LoreleiMorte@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:00:58 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wooden or Bone Busks? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com In a message dated 9/23/2003 1:17:35 AM Central Standard Time, sarah@elizabethanlady.com writes: I'd look in Norris first. A lot of the stuff in Winter & Savoy turns up in various incarnations in Norris' Tudor Fashions book. I thumb through it tonight and see if I can find anything... Of course, if it does get tracked back to Norris, there's absolutely no telling where he got it from. He's miserable at citing sources. But he sure makes a great book to page through on the potty... (my copy sits on the back of the toilet) -Sarra Wryght _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 08:59:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NCxjIO024024 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:59:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NCnK76005824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:49:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NCnCY1014313; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:49:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NCn9Y1014294 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:49:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.27]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:47:37 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:49:03 -0400 Message-ID: <001b01c381d1$120102f0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <000901c38111$68b18f40$fc29a5d1@pavilion> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Perhaps I associate with another crowd of people than some of you on the list here so I am less inclined to be "annoyed" by the "mistakes" of others. >>>> Lisa, perhaps you are mistaking my desire to prevent new people from making mistakes as annoyance with them. I assure you that nothing could be further from the truth. In my time in reenactment circles, I have seen many former "newbies" say, "Why didn't anyone tell me this was wrong?! Why did they let me wear this and make a fool out of myself?" My comments are to help people avoid those situations. Making them learn the process from scratch isn't growth, it's deliberately withholding information. And I can't do that to a new person. Or an old person. Or anyone. Embroidery takes a lot of time and effort. I shudder to see someone who desires to make a historic garment waste their time on something they will eventually find is not accurate to the period. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 09:00:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ND0fIO024030 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:00:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NCxh76006982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:59:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NCxf2v018781; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:59:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NCxa2v018678 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:59:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id h8ND0EA17695.; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:00:14 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:59:32 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.0 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:59:13 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >>> Lisa-list@threadneedlest.com 09/23/03 11:22am >>> wrote: >I agree, it does look to be a much later shoe. I'll write to the museum and >get some more details. I don't claim to be an expert, but it looked like an 18th century shoe to me too. > I do know that H.M. Queen Mary donated a number of items to the >museum when it was the Abbey Folk Park in New Barnet, UK. I was wondering how it had got to Australia! I was interested to learn that, at 5'2", I'm not much below the average size for British women. My shoe size is 5, which used to be the commonest, but I believe that is now size 6. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 09:17:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NDHhIO024630 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:17:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDGw76007750 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:16:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDGv2v026481; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:16:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDGs2v026424 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:16:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8NDGlhp005421 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:16:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923075602.03aafa88@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:16:35 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Subject: Average human size? (WAS: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kat responded to Lisa Sinervo: > > My mom is 5'2" and wears a size 4. And she finds shoes outside of specialty stores and children's departments? I'm amazed! >In the 16th C (at least in London according to _London Bodies_) the >average height for women was 5'2 1/4" (158cm). In 1998 it was 5'3 >3/4" (162cm). Frankly, that's not much of a difference. >Most people assume that people "back then" were much smaller because >the average during the Victorian age was 5'1 1/4" (156 cm). Still taller than I am (5' 0.5" in stocking feet) :( >As to a size 4 shoe being small, most women in the US wear about a 7 >1/2-8. Are there regional variations? Here in the NYC area, I'd have thought the average shoe size was 8 to 8-1/2. >The usual low size for most shoe stores is 6-6 1/2 (with those >being smaller considered "specialized"). Again, are there regional variations? While the selection is not there, most of the stores I shop in actually *do* carry a few models in 5's and 5-1/2's. >Current US average height for women is about 5'6". When I was in high >school it was about 5'4". This is interesting! I remember reading in a rather specious publication (the _National Enquirer_) back in the mid- to late-1970's that the average height for US women was 5' 3-1/2", and the average height for US men was 5' 10-1/2". My understanding (fueled either by the news media or by women's or sewing magazines) was that the average height of US women had actually *dropped* since then because of the influx of many immigrants of shorter stature. Is it possible that it's simply the statistical *modes* that are changing, and instead of a single peak/normal distribution we are also growing or importing a lot more very tall women and having statistical peaks at the top and bottom ends of the scale? Also of interest in context, US pattern companies were designing for an "average" Misses and Women's height of 5' 6" since the 1960's, an average Junior height of 5' 5", and average Half-Size height of 5' 3" (as listed in _Better Homes and Gardens Sewing Book_, Meredith Corporation, 1961, 1970, pp. 9-10). Why would a pattern company design for an "average" height that was significantly taller than the "average"? >If it is anything like the men, it may top out where it is or it may (like >the men >seem to be doing) decline a bit. Decline? I think I'm seeing less of that in men than in women, but that's completely anecdotal. OTOH, I'm wondering if this is related to fast-food diets, white collar jobs, and Couch Potato Syndrome, and might reverse as the generation after the present one becomes health-obsessed... Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 09:23:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NDN1IO024641 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:23:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDMA76008172 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:22:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDM72v029232; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:22:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8NDM12v029186 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:22:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 91004 invoked by uid 1005); 23 Sep 2003 13:21:49 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 1.232153 secs); 23 Sep 2003 13:21:49 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 1.232153 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 23 Sep 2003 13:21:48 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:21:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Triangular busks In-Reply-To: <3F6F8947.26570.3F19C9FE@localhost> Message-ID: <20030923091312.T47547-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I mean tapered as in 1/2 to 1 inch wider at the top of the busk than at the bottom. I'm willing to bet Norris is behind it all, too...I vaguely recall an astonishingly inaccurate depiction of a corset from his book that may have included a tapered busc... Drea On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > > Here's a question--every extant busk I've seen, and every corset that > > has a pocket for a busk, has shown the busk to be untapered--just a > > straight length of material. How did the triangular or tapered busk > > concept first come into being? I know when I started out in > > costuming, I for some reason assumed this was how busks looked. > > Tapered how? I've always seen them as basically an ivory, bone or > wood (and whalebone in period) in the shape of a ruler with the tip > tapered to fit into the point of the corset and the top slightly > rounded with a hole in it for the busk lace. That's what the > Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina corset looked like it might have had at > one time. > > I'd like to know where people have evidence for busk knives. ;) > > Kat > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 09:47:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NDldIO024711 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:47:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDl076009448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDkw2v011248; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:46:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDkr2v011167 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:46:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m251.in-tch.com [216.166.191.251]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8NDQTp28515 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:26:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F704F51.ADFCD911@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:49:05 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Triangular busks References: <002901c38143$d6bae3b0$6501a8c0@SG01> <3F6F8947.26570.3F19C9FE@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bodice daggers? Aren't those strictly RenFaire? --sue kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > I'd like to know where people have evidence for busk knives. ;) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 09:48:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NDmWIO024714 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:48:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDlb76009507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:47:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDla2v011571; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:47:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8NDlW2v011532 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:47:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-64-165-70-80.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@64.165.70.80 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2003 13:47:32 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:45:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Triangular busks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Sarah To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20030923091312.T47547-100000@shell.siscom.net> Message-Id: <30F0E287-EDCC-11D7-AA71-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I mean tapered as in 1/2 to 1 inch wider at the top of the busk than at > the bottom. > > I'm willing to bet Norris is behind it all, too...I vaguely recall an > astonishingly inaccurate depiction of a corset from his book that may > have > included a tapered busc... I flipped through Norris last night and turned up nothing on the subject of triangular busks, unfortunately. My message from last night has a quote talking about a "slightly convex" shaped busk, though, which I'm taking to mean the typical "ruler shape" busk we already know is documentable. His illustration of the corset is pretty much off the charts, but it doesn't show a curved busk front... It just looks like a Victorianoid straight front corset with some funky hip pad things and an obnoxiously long point (which looks lethal!). Have to look elsewhere... I wish I knew where my copy of Winter & Savoy ran off to because there might be some clues as to where to look in the biblography. I believe I have all the books they bothered to reference, so I s'pose I could just go flipping through them to see if anything surfaces... ;) Sarah _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 09:52:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NDqSIO024722 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:52:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDoK76009671 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:50:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDoJ2v013030; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:50:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cybrhost.net (server051.cybrhost.com [63.74.12.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NDoB2v012955 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:50:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [216.254.102.72] (HELO cc707811b) by cybrhost.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 40366714 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:49:20 -0700 From: "Suzanne" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Triangular busks Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:51:27 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <000601c381c6$aaf3d4c0$5b48ccd1@Kass> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Ok, not saying this is necessarily a good source, especially since I haven't reviewed where they got their info, but there are "tinted" photographs of actual pieces rather than pencil sketches, so it's a starting point. After hedging the bet sufficiently ;) In Support and Seduction, A History of Corsets and Bras, by Beatrice Fontanel, Page 30 there are photos of what actually look like a cross between a thin metal busk and very large letter openers. "Made of boxwood, ivory, engraved mother-of-pearl, damascened silver or among the less wealthy, of turkey cartilage-the busk sometimes held a dagger. When one had eaten too much, it was always possible to remove the busk from the slot sewn for it in the bodice and show it around, which explains the fashion for highly wrought and valuable busks." So there's the first bit I've been able to *add* to a conversation in a long time...I always receive allot of great sources...so thank you everybody. Suz > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Kass McGann > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 7:35 AM > To: 'Historical Costume' > Subject: RE: [h-cost] Triangular busks > > > I'd like to know where people have evidence for busk knives. ;) > >>>> > Don't you mean "bodice daggers", Kat? > > Kass > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:03:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NE3cIO024754 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:03:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NE2e76010470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:02:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NE2cpj019749; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:02:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NE2apj019718 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:02:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.91]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:01:04 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Triangular busks Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:02:30 -0400 Message-ID: <002501c381db$550381e0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F704F51.ADFCD911@in-tch.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bodice daggers? Aren't those strictly RenFaire? >>>> Yeah. Aren't they the same thing as "busk knives"? Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:20:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NEKQIO024813 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:20:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEAc76010850 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:10:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEAapj024216; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:10:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEAVpj024174 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:10:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.91]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:09:00 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Triangular busks Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:10:26 -0400 Message-ID: <002901c381dc$7060b4c0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com After hedging the bet sufficiently ;) In Support and Seduction, A History of Corsets and Bras, by Beatrice Fontanel, Page 30 there are photos of what actually look like a cross between a thin metal busk and very large letter openers. >>>> Sadly, she doesn't give a date, or even a century. Anyone recognize the busks in the picture? Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:21:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NEL1IO024817 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:21:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEHD76011307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:17:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEHBpj028204; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:17:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.186]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8NEH9pj028167 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:17:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-64-165-70-80.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@64.165.70.80 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2003 14:17:08 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:15:03 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Triangular busks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Sarah To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <002501c381db$550381e0$5b48ccd1@Kass> Message-Id: <53475FC2-EDD0-11D7-AA71-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Yeah. Aren't they the same thing as "busk knives"? I've never heard them called "busk knives" but I knew exactly what you were talking about. Maybe it's a regional thing. ;) And as far as I can tell, they're a romanticism. Gosh, somewhere... Again I'm thinking it's Winter & Savoy for some reason... I read something along the lines of women using sharpened busks as self-defense weapons. Could be plausible, but it might also explain where the bodice dagger/busk knife thing originated from. Also, most bodice daggers look a lot like stiletto knives, which leaves me to think that metal-smiths in the faire circuit may have just shortened a stiletto and said "here's something to wedge between your boobs and it looks cool!" What happens if you take it out too quickly? Automatic mastectomy! Eeek! Sarah _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:22:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NEMwIO024828 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:22:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEMN76011644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:22:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEMMpj001715; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:22:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from orval.sprint.ca (orval.sprint.ca [209.5.194.98]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEMIpj001673 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:22:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shooie ([149.99.68.97]) by berlinr.sprint.ca (InterMail vM.5.01.02.00 201-253-122-103-101-20001108) with SMTP id <20030923141527.KJMP3218.berlinr.sprint.ca@shooie> for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:15:27 -0400 Message-ID: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> From: "Sheridan & Shane" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:14:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Subject: [h-cost] Books X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Greetings all! This should be an interesting question: If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live without, what would it be? Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:29:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NET6IO024844 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:29:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NESR76012125 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:28:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NESQpj005712; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:28:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.187]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8NESJpj005620 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:28:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-64-165-70-80.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@64.165.70.80 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2003 14:26:44 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:24:39 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Sarah To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live without, > what > would it be? Probably Patterns of Fashion. All three of them, really. Sarah _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:29:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NETiIO024847 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:29:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NESx76012175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:28:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NESwpj006048; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:28:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8NEStpj006018 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:28:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 96985 invoked by uid 1005); 23 Sep 2003 14:28:49 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.574887 secs); 23 Sep 2003 14:28:49 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.574887 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 23 Sep 2003 14:28:48 -0000 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books In-Reply-To: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> Message-ID: <20030923102835.B47547-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd. Hands down. Drea On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Sheridan & Shane wrote: > Greetings all! > > This should be an interesting question: > > If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live without, what > would it be? > > Sheridan > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:30:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NEU9IO024853 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:30:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NETT76012211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:29:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NETTpj006373; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:29:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NETOpk006272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:29:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8NEZi0q026897 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:35:44 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F7058EE.5090806@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:30:06 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books References: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> In-Reply-To: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live without, what > would it be? _One Thousand and One Extant Headdresses of the Middle Ages_ Oh... you mean existing books? -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:45:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NEjXIO024882 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:45:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEh876013344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:43:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEgupj016038; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:42:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEgkpj015911 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:42:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.90]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:41:08 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:42:33 -0400 Message-ID: <002d01c381e0$eda61d90$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live without, what would it be? >>>> Medieval Finds from Excavations in London: 4 - Textiles and Clothing circa 1150-1450 by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay Staniland Not for the actual data contained therein, but for what it taught me about looking at extant pieces. If I lost everything I've learned about historic clothing, I could rebuild my knowledge starting with this book. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:45:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NEjgIO024885 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:45:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEjA76013501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:45:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEj9pj017564; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:45:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEj6pj017527 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:45:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from patriot.net (support.patriot.net [209.249.176.6]) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id h8NEj61M015673 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:45:06 -0400 Message-Id: <200309231445.h8NEj61M015673@jefferson.patriot.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:41:05 -0000 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article From: X-Mailer: TWIG 2.3.2 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I agree that it looks 18thC, though I could ask a shoe historian friend if necessary. We're all recovering from the hurricane, and just got flooded with extra rain last night! :-/ I'm reminded that there is a pair of stockings said to belong to Queen Elizabeth I, but after examining them Deborah Pulliam believes they are also 18th century. -Carol Theresa Eacker said: > Well, that just does not look like a late 16th century shoe to me, more > like an 18th century shoe. Could this be mislabeled somewhere along the > line? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:47:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NElkIO024891 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:47:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEkp76013650 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:46:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEkcpj018728; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:46:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEkXpj018663 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:46:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.133.149.144] (pm5-144.eos.net [205.133.149.144]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NEkQuT004852 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:46:27 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:39:17 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200309222301.h8MN1scW007311@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver running MimeDefang and SPAMAssassin Subject: [h-cost] Re: source needed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Please allow me to clarify. I know I can search companies that make awards, etc., for printed ribbon. I am looking for a recommendation from someone who had actually used one of these companies. Also, I am looking for yardage, not award-type or bookmark-type ribbons available from wedding supply places. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 10:49:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NEnLIO024894 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:49:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEmc76013823 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:48:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEmbpj020240; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:48:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NEmVpj020137 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:48:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1oSr-0006I8-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:48:29 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Triangular busks-funky hip pad things and other musings Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:48:45 -0700 Message-ID: <001b01c381e1$ca1a1ec0$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <30F0E287-EDCC-11D7-AA71-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8NEmVpj020137 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I wonder if he was looking at the late 18th century one which Kent State has now? It is on the back of the last issue of Threads. It has those funky hip pads...it doesn't fit the manikin well, but you can see how they would support a skirt on a person of the right back length. It harkens back to my favorite 'rule'; "if you thought of it, they probably did." Why do you suppose they made the shoulder straps in two pieces? They look like they are sewn together on the outside in this example. I guess people's weight fluxuations would make it useful....hmmm or was it just so you could pass down something that was labor intensive to make?? -----Original Message----- charts, but it doesn't show a curved busk front... It just looks like a Victorianoid straight front corset with some funky hip pad things and an obnoxiously long point (which looks lethal!). Sarah _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 11:08:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NF8OIO024968 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:08:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NF7h76015402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:07:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NF7enj004493; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:07:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NF7Wnk004378 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:07:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8NFDp0q027304 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:13:52 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F7061DE.4040108@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:08:14 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books References: <002d01c381e0$eda61d90$5b48ccd1@Kass> In-Reply-To: <002d01c381e0$eda61d90$5b48ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kass McGann wrote: > Medieval Finds from Excavations in London: 4 - Textiles and Clothing > circa 1150-1450 by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay > Staniland I concurr. The arrival of this book on the costuming scene was a revelation to many, and a delightful shock that all these bits did exist and we could see pictures of them. Real clothing, instead of only guessing from illuminations! -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 11:17:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NFH1IO024999 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:17:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFGR76016128 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:16:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFGPnj011499; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:16:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFGKnj011373 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:16:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200309231516.h8NFGKnj011373@net.indra.com> Received: from mtiwebc15 (mtiwebc15.worldnet.att.net[204.127.135.41]) by mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <2003092315161511100bg227e>; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:16:15 +0000 Received: from [63.240.154.49] by mtiwebc15; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:16:14 +0000 From: ladysarafina@att.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:16:14 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Aug 25 2003) X-Authenticated-Sender: aHN3YXNoaW5ndG9uQGF0dC5uZXQ= X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I would say Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd. Aside from all the wonderful portraits, reading the inventory itself is very fascinating. I think my second choice would be Patterns of Fashion 1560 - 1650 (?). Harlie Des Roches -- Lady Sarafina Sinclair, CW, APF http://ladysarafina.home.att.net > Greetings all! > > This should be an interesting question: > > If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live without, what > would it be? > > Sheridan > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 11:37:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NFb6IO025048 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:37:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFVN76017520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:31:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFVLnj024178; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:31:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFVKnj024099 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:31:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from reddawn.net (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E84A425CE for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:33:05 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <3F7066E2.4090306@reddawn.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:29:38 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books References: <002d01c381e0$eda61d90$5b48ccd1@Kass> In-Reply-To: <002d01c381e0$eda61d90$5b48ccd1@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kass McGann wrote: > > Medieval Finds from Excavations in London: 4 - Textiles and Clothing > circa 1150-1450 by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay > Staniland I notice there are at least 5 volumes in this series. What makes #4 better than the others? Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 11:40:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NFeNIO025056 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:40:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFcP76018229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:38:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFcNnj000492; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:38:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFcEnj000296 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:38:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be0b.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.11]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 08BF45EE432 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:37:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001e01c381e8$ee2ce020$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:39:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Subject: [h-cost] expensive day X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Dear list. I just want to burst a little, please forgive me but i must tell you. I have never spend that much money as i did today! I finally went to that shop i never visited before. It is in the countryside, and i had to take a cab some of the way to get there. They have more than 600 different silks to choose from, and their colour range is vast. I was told that most of the ladies who goes to the danish court for balls etc. are buying their dress silks here. Well i am glad that i had loads of money with me, i had the feeling i would need them. I almost passed out, when i saw those beautifull silks. You just name it, they had everything. Also Faille wich i never had seen before. I baught 7 meters of smashing beautifull duchesse satin in a light blue shade. I will use it for the copy of Gustaf III's wedding suit. + i baught some extra ivory duchesse satin for an extra waistcoat. Now my question: To save as much as i can in fabric, would it then be possible to use the breadth of the fabric to cut in stead of using it lenghtwise? The jacket pattern has almost a full sun in the "skirt" and i could not have 2 frontpieces in one lenght. I have baught enough fabric to use it lenghtwise, but i just wondered if i could cut it in the breadth in stead This wedding suit is going to be trimmed with silver bobbin lace and then it shall be embroidered off cause!!! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 11:54:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NFshIO025077 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:54:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFrq76019878 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:53:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFrnnj014164; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:53:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFrknj014055 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:53:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip253.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.253]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 343866A72A for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:53:41 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:51:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Average human size? (WAS: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes) Message-ID: <3F700990.27796.410EE3FA@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923075602.03aafa88@mail.earthlink.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > This is interesting! I remember reading in a rather specious > publication (the _National Enquirer_) back in the mid- to late-1970's > that the average height for US women was 5' 3-1/2", and the average > height for US men was 5' 10-1/2". My understanding (fueled either by > the news media or by women's or sewing magazines) was that the average > height of US women had actually *dropped* since then because of the > influx of many immigrants of shorter stature. Is it possible that it's > simply the statistical *modes* that are changing, and instead of a > single peak/normal distribution we are also growing or importing a lot > more very tall women and having statistical peaks at the top and > bottom ends of the scale? The average hasn't dropped because of the influx. That's because the children of those immigrants have mostly turned out to be of "normal" size. I don't know where the National Inquirer got its information for the 70s. I got it from the American Academy of Pediatric sources. (I'd have to go look at the bottom of the sheet to see the actual source and they are packed away right now.) > Also of interest in context, US pattern companies were designing for > an "average" Misses and Women's height of 5' 6" since the 1960's, an > average Junior height of 5' 5", and average Half-Size height of 5' 3" > (as listed in _Better Homes and Gardens Sewing Book_, Meredith > Corporation, 1961, 1970, pp. 9-10). Why would a pattern company design > for an "average" height that was significantly taller than the > "average"? Good question, but I know in the late 60s that you couldn't model professionally as an adult unless you were at least 5'6". (I was sooo pissed that my child modeling couldn't seque into adulthood, but I only made it to 5'4". So much for the money to put me through medical school.) I suspect that they figured that some women are going to be "half-size" and some "misses" and "women", and that they covered the usual women's heights that way. > >If it is anything like the men, it may top out where it is or it may > >(like the men seem to be doing) decline a bit. > > Decline? I think I'm seeing less of that in men than in women, but > that's completely anecdotal. OTOH, I'm wondering if this is related to > fast-food diets, white collar jobs, and Couch Potato Syndrome, and > might reverse as the generation after the present one becomes > health-obsessed... Good question, but the current information coming out of the medical community about height is that the men's average height has recently been dropping. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 11:55:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NFtcIO025080 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:55:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFsQ76019939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:54:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFsOnj014773; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:54:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFrknj014093 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:53:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip253.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.253]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68F36A97F for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:53:43 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:51:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books Message-ID: <3F700990.17138.410EE561@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F7058EE.5090806@thibault.org> References: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live > > without, what would it be? > > _One Thousand and One Extant Headdresses of the Middle Ages_ > > Oh... you mean existing books? Oh! Could I get that one too! (That and one like it on clothes, and another on shoes.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 11:55:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NFtiIO025083 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:55:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFsZ76019999 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:54:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFsZnj014933; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:54:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFrmnj014145 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:53:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip253.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.253]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3386A72A for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:53:47 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:51:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] Triangular busks Message-ID: <3F700990.14350.410EE503@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000601c381c6$aaf3d4c0$5b48ccd1@Kass> References: <3F6F8947.26570.3F19C9FE@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I'd like to know where people have evidence for busk knives. ;) > >>>> > Don't you mean "bodice daggers", Kat? Busk knives seems to be one of the names I've heard for them. But I've also heard bodice daggers. (My husband is a bladesmith/blacksmith and gets requests for them.) Going back to the page 30 in Support and Seduction, some of the busks she shows on that page could be the inspiration for the knives/daggers. Not something *I* would want in my bodice, but then, I've never gone in for that sort of thing. (I prefer front laced corsets anyway.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 11:58:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NFwDIO025094 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:58:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFvN76020284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:57:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFvMLL017452; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:57:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFvJLL017391 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:57:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.54]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:55:45 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:57:12 -0400 Message-ID: <005501c381eb$5a93a8f0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F7066E2.4090306@reddawn.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I notice there are at least 5 volumes in this series. What makes #4 better than the others? >>>> Nothing. They're all good. It's just that Horse Furniture, Belts and Scabbards, and Shoes aren't in my area of interest. =) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 11:58:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NFwfIO025097 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:58:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFw776020355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:58:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFw6LL018293; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:58:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NFw3LL018225 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:58:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip253.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.253]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D845A6A90E for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:58:01 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:55:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books Message-ID: <3F700A99.4182.4112EF70@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F7066E2.4090306@reddawn.net> References: <002d01c381e0$eda61d90$5b48ccd1@Kass> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > Medieval Finds from Excavations in London: 4 - Textiles and Clothing > > circa 1150-1450 by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay > > Staniland > > > I notice there are at least 5 volumes in this series. What makes #4 > better than the others? Each has a different emphasis. If you are into clothing and textiles, you would probably want the one above. However, if you are into horse equipment, shoes/pattens, dress accessories, knives/scabbards or household items, you might prefer one of those. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 12:03:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NG3sIO025115 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:03:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NG3C76020783 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:03:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NG3BLL022513; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:03:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NG39LL022487 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:03:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-47-092.jps.net ([209.165.47.92] helo=pavilion) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1pd6-0007BX-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:03:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c381ec$940498a0$5c2fa5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200309231445.h8NEj61M015673@jefferson.patriot.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:05:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Imagine a shoe rose on it though. It does look very much like a 16th century shoe with a rose on it. The tapestry pattern isn't clear in the photo unfortunately. Still, I'm going to write for more details and report back. Lisa Sinervo ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article > > I agree that it looks 18thC, though I could ask a shoe historian friend if > necessary. We're all recovering from the hurricane, and just got flooded with > extra rain last night! :-/ > > I'm reminded that there is a pair of stockings said to belong to Queen > Elizabeth I, but after examining them Deborah Pulliam believes they are also > 18th century. > > -Carol > > > Theresa Eacker said: > > Well, that just does not look like a late 16th century shoe to me, more > > like an 18th century shoe. Could this be mislabeled somewhere along the > > line? > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 12:51:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NGpcIO025238 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:51:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NGnB76024783 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:49:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NGn8LL005738; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:49:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NGmSLL005147 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:48:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a249.in-tch.com [66.62.107.49]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8NGS1p01926 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:28:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F7079DD.DB5C485C@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:50:37 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books References: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Ooooh, you're positively evil! I'm interested in so many different aspects of historical costuming, and so many divergent times and styles that the thought of having only one book actually hurts! Playing along with the rules of the thread, though, I'd choose Janet Arnold's _Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked_, if only because it's so comprehensive, and has text AND pictures AND stuff from primary sources. --sue Sheridan & Shane wrote: > > Greetings all! > > This should be an interesting question: > > If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live without, what > would it be? > > Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 12:54:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NGs9IO025246 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:54:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NGrD76025140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:53:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NGrCLL009235; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:53:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NGr7LL009091 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:53:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a249.in-tch.com [66.62.107.49]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8NGWhp04347 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:32:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F707AF7.4F705682@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:55:19 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books References: <002d01c381e0$eda61d90$5b48ccd1@Kass> <3F7061DE.4040108@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Absolutely, ladies. It's my runner-up, behind QE's Wardrobe. --sue, going off to the bookshelves to reassure her other books that they're ALL important! Cynthia Virtue wrote: > > Kass McGann wrote: > > Medieval Finds from Excavations in London: 4 - Textiles and Clothing > > circa 1150-1450 by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay > > Staniland > > I concurr. The arrival of this book on the costuming scene was a > revelation to many, and a delightful shock that all these bits did exist > and we could see pictures of them. Real clothing, instead of only > guessing from illuminations! > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 12:55:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NGtSIO025250 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:55:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NGsH76025306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:54:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NGsFLL010276; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:54:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NGsCLL010174 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:54:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a249.in-tch.com [66.62.107.49]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8NGXlp04874 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:33:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F707B37.68680C86@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:56:23 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books References: <002d01c381e0$eda61d90$5b48ccd1@Kass> <3F7066E2.4090306@reddawn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com #4's the volume on textiles and clothing. The other volumes cover other topics (shoes, knives and scabbards, accessories). --sue Dawn wrote: > > Kass McGann wrote: > > > > > Medieval Finds from Excavations in London: 4 - Textiles and Clothing > > circa 1150-1450 by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay > > Staniland > > I notice there are at least 5 volumes in this series. What makes #4 > better than the others? > > Dawn > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 13:02:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NH20IO025271 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:02:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NH1676026024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:01:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NH12w8015956; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:01:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NH0uw8015795 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:00:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a249.in-tch.com [66.62.107.49]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8NGeWp08573 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:40:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F707CCC.29D35AD5@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:03:08 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] 1st and last books X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com My brain is being extra-weird today, and insisting on combining two recent threads (the busk one and the book one). My very first costuming book was a copy of Winter & Savoy, which I still have, although it's gone quite tattered My most recent purchase was _Textiles: 5000 Years_, edited by Jennifer Harris. What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, costuming books? --sue _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 13:20:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NHKlIO025322 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:20:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHGX76027452 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:16:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHGTw8029067; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:16:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHGOw8029010 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:16:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip253.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.253]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EF66A7BA for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:16:22 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:14:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books Message-ID: <3F701CFC.12481.415AC218@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F707CCC.29D35AD5@in-tch.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > My brain is being extra-weird today, and insisting on combining two > recent threads (the busk one and the book one). My very first > costuming book was a copy of Winter & Savoy, which I still have, > although it's gone quite tattered My most recent purchase was > _Textiles: 5000 Years_, edited by Jennifer Harris. What about the rest > of you? What were your first, and most recent, costuming books? --sue My first was Kohler's book (which I still use for the pictures of extant garments). My most recent one was the gift of a copy of _The Visual History of Costume: 14th and 15thC_. (It was the only one in the entire series that I didn't have.) Of the ones I purchased for myself, it's hard to say because I got about 5 books at once. But one of them was _The London Weaver's Company Vol 1_ which has photographs of things like the original charter (including their seals!), transcriptions of ordinances, etc. (Volume 1 is 12thC to the close of the 16thC.) Another one was _Of His Array Telle I No Lenger Tale: Aspects of costume, arms and armour in Western Europe, 1200-1400_ which is a series of articles (some in English, others in German and I believe Dutch.) (As I'm trying to fill in some lacunae in my library. Right now 13th-15thC Europe seems to be the focus.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 13:57:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NHvkIO025423 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:57:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHv076001843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:57:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHuvOe004559; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:56:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHuiOe004323 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:56:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8NHuTuh004080 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:56:31 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923133349.00adcf98@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:56:07 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kat writes: >The average hasn't dropped because of the influx. That's because the >children of those immigrants have mostly turned out to be of "normal" >size. Ah. That makes sense :) >I don't know where the National Inquirer got its information for the >70s. It was back _in_ the 'seventies, and it was in an article about the evolution of the "White Rock Girl", which at that time would have been taller than 5' 8"... Of course, as I noted, the _National Enquirer_ is a rather specious publication to begin with (starting with all the manufactured celebrity romances and going on to Near-Death-Experiences, UFOs, and Sasquatch sightings)... > > Why would a pattern company design for an "average" height that was > > significantly taller than the "average"? > >Good question, but I know in the late 60s that you couldn't model >professionally as an adult unless you were at least 5'6". I'm trying to remember where it was I read it (probably another specious supermarket tabloid), but the required heights for models depend on the city and the medium/media for which the person is modeling... something like 5' 8" for fitter's models, and anywhere from 5' 9-1/2" to 5' 11-1/2" for runway mannequins, depending on the city? I'd really like to see print and media models who look like *real* people -- not the thinnest, tallest, most-anorexic-or-most-physically-fit people that could possibly wear a certain size grouping. I'd like to see Women's models who wear a Size 22, Women's Petite models in *any* WP size, but preferably ones who wear a Size 20 or larger; I'd like to see Misses and Petites models who are 5' 6" and a Size 10 or 12, "Supersize" models who are a Size 32 or larger, Big Men's models of average height and above average girth... >I suspect that they figured that some women are going to be >"half-size" and some "misses" and "women", and that they covered the >usual women's heights that way. I don't know about the rest of the world, but I'd grown up thinking "half sizes" meant "fat women's sizes"... possibly because the smallest size I ever remember my 4' 10-1/2" mother wearing was a 16-1/2, and -- except for her friend Renee -- she was probably the broadest woman I'd known until I was well into my school years... Also, most of the styles that came in Misses sizes did not also come in Half Sizes at the time... Changing the body type and naming from "Half Size" to "Misses Petite" does not seem to have helped matters much, either... and I recently read (on the Liz Claiborne site, for example) that the difference between Misses and Misses Petite pants is only a shorter rise, with the inseam remaining the same from Misses to Petite. The sleeve lengths of jackets are similarly no longer adjusted for the change in height. *sigh* When will they learn that not all of us have legs and arms that go on "forever"... >Good question, but the current information coming out of the medical >community about height is that the men's average height has recently >been dropping. Well then maybe there's some hope that I won't spend *all* of my life looking straight forward... into men's belt buckles or below. Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:06:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NI6mIO025452 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:06:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NI3f76002595 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:03:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NI3eOe010368; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:03:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NI3bOe010346 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:03:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-67-116-238-120.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.116.238.120]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8NI3ZOs005107 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030923103915.054a35a0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:03:17 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books In-Reply-To: <3F707CCC.29D35AD5@in-tch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >My very first costuming book was a copy of Winter & Savoy, which I still >have, although it's gone quite tattered >My most recent purchase was _Textiles: 5000 Years_, edited by Jennifer >Harris. >What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, >costuming books? My first book was Davenport, which I talk about all the time and which is still my favorite. My book anything like a costume book was a book on historical costumes for dolls. It's by Lark Books, and is called something like Sewing Victorian Doll Clothes. It is copiously illustrated with examples of doll clothes actually made between about 1830 and 1915, usually on the original doll. The patterns and sewing techniques bear some resemblance to the illustrated examples, but it's not a mini-Janet-Arnold. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:06:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NI6qIO025455 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:06:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NI5m76002757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:05:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NI5lOe012140; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:05:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NI5iOe012105 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:05:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.67]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:04:12 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] expensive day Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:05:38 -0400 Message-ID: <006c01c381fd$4c49cd80$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <001e01c381e8$ee2ce020$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com To save as much as i can in fabric, would it then be possible to use the breadth of the fabric to cut in stead of using it lenghtwise? The jacket pattern has almost a full sun in the "skirt" and i could not have 2 frontpieces in one lenght. I have baught enough fabric to use it lenghtwise, but i just wondered if i could cut it in the breadth in stead >>>> In period, they did an awful lot of piecing, even on very expensive clothing. If you can piece enough fabric together to cut it lengthwise, that would be best. Sometimes you can get away with cutting things on the cross, but as Nicole mentioned, the skirts are the problem; they won't drape properly if they're not on the straight. >>>> This wedding suit is going to be trimmed with silver bobbin lace and then it shall be embroidered off cause!!! >>>> You MUST show us pictures when it's finished! Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:16:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NIGPIO025497 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:16:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIFJ76003787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:15:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIFHOe021232; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:15:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu (kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu [169.147.4.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIFFOe021120 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:15:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KUMC-SMTPOUT-DOMAIN-MTA by kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:15:08 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:13:20 -0500 From: "Catherine Kinsey" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [h-cost] Re: 1st and last books X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, > costuming books? My first was a christmas present, Boucher's 20,000 Years of Fashion. This was almost 30 years ago when you could get it on remainder. Most recent was Digby's Elizabethan Embroidery, found it on eBay!. Ok, so it is more on needlework, but the embroidery is on costume accessories :). Catherine _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:17:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NIHGIO025501 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:17:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIGN76003884 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:16:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIGMOe022166; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:16:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webmail20.nyc.untd.com (outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com [64.136.21.170]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8NIGHOe021960 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:16:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VClCA8oUq69zwrRyvSZopYxivXKNAmvqgBQ==">; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:16:03 PDT Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by webmail20.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JASHPVRE; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:16:03 PDT Received: from [67.73.169.64] by webmail20.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:15:58 GMT X-Originating-IP: [67.73.169.64] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Original-From: "seamstrix@juno.com" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:15:58 GMT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: seamstrix@juno.com Message-Id: <20030923.111603.4393.747932@webmail20.nyc.untd.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I've been doing costuming since I was a highschool student (back in the Age of the Dinosaurs AKA 1970's) so I can't remember which one of these I bought first but some early purchses were: Patterns of Fashion (1660-1860) The Distaff Sketchbook A History of Costume by Carl Kohler My most recent purchases were at CostumeCon when I bought two books on clothing of the 1920's and 1930's. The authors' names escape me, but they are quite good and are in the same style as Jean Hunnisett's books. My interests have broadened as well! Karen -- Sue Clemenger wrote: My brain is being extra-weird today, and insisting on combining two recent threads (the busk one and the book one). My very first costuming book was a copy of Winter & Savoy, which I still have, although it's gone quite tattered My most recent purchase was _Textiles: 5000 Years_, edited by Jennifer Harris. What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, costuming books? --sue _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:18:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NIIIIO025512 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:18:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIHV76003998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:17:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIHUOe023164; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:17:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIHPOe022992 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:17:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 303572 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:17:20 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:21:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3F7087EF.3060703@reddawn.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com My first was 2,000 Years of Fashion - I lucked out and got it on a remaindered table in the 70's for $4-5 dollars. Last night I bought "Everyday Clothing of the 1940's" (Dover publication to go with my "...From the 1920's" and "...From the 1930's") and I placed an order for the "Goddesses" book from the museum in NY. Should get it next week. LynnD Who really likes much of the clothing from the 20th Century > Sue Clemenger wrote: > > >> What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, >> costuming books? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:25:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NIPwIO025548 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:25:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIOa76004629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:24:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIOYOe029540; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:24:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIOWOe029504 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:24:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.67]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:23:00 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:24:26 -0400 Message-ID: <006e01c381ff$ec950aa0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923133349.00adcf98@mail.earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Brenda wrote: <> Hi Brenda. There's a common misconception that models are what we women are expected to look like in our society and that somehow the media/fashion industry has foisted this burden of thinness upon us. The truth is that models (particularly runway models, who are the tallest and thinnest) are not supposed to be a representation of what a woman should look like. They are supposed to be walking clothes hangers used solely for the purpose of displaying clothing in fashion shows. They're supposed to be taller and thinner than normal because their bodies are not supposed to detract from the look of the clothing. You're not supposed to find them attractive. You're not supposed to notice them at all. It wasn't until the 1980s when runway models started becoming celebrities. That's when I think we all got really confused... The pattern and garment industries don't base their sizes on runway models. They base their sizes on a statistical norm of the population. Recently that norm has been revised in because we Americans are... um... "collectively changing shape" shall we say. Garment sizes are only a starting point, not a rule for how you should look. If the clothing you find on the rack is too big here or too tight there, it should be taken to a tailor (another thing our society has forgotten...). If they don't have your size, you need to shop elsewhere. Men don't look at male models and beat themselves up for not looking like them, so why should we! And male models are just as freakish as female models! Their narrow waists and over-developed muscles aren't representative of the population. If men wore clothing made to fit these men, no one would be able to find clothes. Don't look at models as "role models". They're just mannequins, clothes hangers, display pieces. Be who you are. Be proud of it. =) I hope this helps to put things in context a little better. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:28:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NISxIO025554 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:28:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIST76004996 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:28:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NISSOe003001; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:28:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NISOOe002954 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:28:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be0b.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.11]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D49747FF94 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:28:23 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c38200$c812c4f0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030923173122.5632.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:30:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Dear Nicole, I thank you for the prompt answer. I guess i better cut it the usual way. It is rather interresting with this suit. Gustaf III's wedding was in 1766, his suit was made in Paris and it is a little oldfashioned cut for the year 66. But it was a royal wedding, and ceremonial dress is always a little oldfashioned. However the embroidery was quite fashionable. The silver lace i make for this, is a little similar to your baroque dress. But i changed the pattern and made it more round and curved. I hope you dont mind i use it! Now the best part of all that work i am going to do is drawing a pattern for the embroidery. This time i will use more colour than i did in the first jacket. Oh i cant waite to start! Thanks for your good advises Nicole! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "N Kipar" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day > --- Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Dear list. > > I just want to burst a little, please forgive me but i must tell you. > > I have never spend that much money as i did today! > > First of all, congratulations!!! It must have been a WONDERFUL day and I wish I > could see that shop. > > > To save as much as i can in fabric, would it then be possible to use the > > breadth of the fabric to cut in stead of using it lenghtwise? > > No dear, you really can't, because it will make the skirts of the coat fall all > wrong. When you look at the originals, you can see the seems in the skirts > where they added pieces to get the full width. If you don't cut it the way you > usually would and it was done back then, when you leave the coat hanging for a > while, it would all go out of shape. > > > The jacket pattern has almost a full sun in the "skirt" and i could not have > > 2 frontpieces in one lenght. > > I have baught enough fabric to use it lenghtwise, but i just wondered if i > > could cut it in the breadth in stead > > Nope, sorry, don't do it, you'd be angry with yourself afterwards *S* > > > This wedding suit is going to be trimmed with silver bobbin lace and then it > > shall be embroidered off cause!!! > > It shall be a work of art, as usual!!! > > Niocle > > ===== > Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' > http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ > > Email: nicole@kipar.org > URL: http://www.kipar.org > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:40:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NIe7IO025581 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:40:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIdR76005940 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:39:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIdPOe012319; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (h-66-134-203-2.SNVACAID.covad.net [66.134.203.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIdLOe012222 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:39:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (mac.misc.com [192.168.254.109]) by misc.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8NIk6jp025947 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:46:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3F7091AB.70909@misc.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:32:11 -0700 From: Theresa Eacker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books References: <3F707CCC.29D35AD5@in-tch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com First book: Theatrical Patterns by Holkeboer (yes, I know...UGH; group cringe, everybody!!) Most recent: Umbrellas and Parasols from Costume Accessories by J. Farrell ONE BOOK ONLY???? ARGH!!! Remember the scene in "Name of the Rose" when the library goes up in flames and Sean Connery's character wants to save all of the books...that awful, desperate look of grief and loss?... that's what that question does to my psyche...Jeez, talk about subtle torture. THeresa Eacker Sue Clemenger wrote: > My brain is being extra-weird today, and insisting on combining two > recent threads (the busk one and the book one). > My very first costuming book was a copy of Winter & Savoy, which I still > have, although it's gone quite tattered > My most recent purchase was _Textiles: 5000 Years_, edited by Jennifer > Harris. > What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, > costuming books? > --sue > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:43:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NIhTIO025591 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:43:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIgF76006078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:42:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIgEnG014780; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:42:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIg9nG014622 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:42:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 303682 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:42:03 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:46:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20030923.111603.4393.747932@webmail20.nyc.untd.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If you remember the author, would you please tell us? I've been building up a library for these decades recently. Will need a new bookcase soon. LynnD On 9/23/03 11:15 AM, "seamstrix@juno.com" wrote: > > > I've been doing costuming since I was a highschool student (back in the Age of > the Dinosaurs AKA 1970's) so I can't remember which one of these I bought > first but some early purchses were: > > Patterns of Fashion (1660-1860) > The Distaff Sketchbook > A History of Costume by Carl Kohler > > My most recent purchases were at CostumeCon when I bought two books on > clothing of the 1920's and 1930's. The authors' names escape me, but they are > quite good and are in the same style as Jean Hunnisett's books. My interests > have broadened as well! > > Karen > > > > > -- Sue Clemenger wrote: > My brain is being extra-weird today, and insisting on combining two > recent threads (the busk one and the book one). > My very first costuming book was a copy of Winter & Savoy, which I still > have, although it's gone quite tattered > My most recent purchase was _Textiles: 5000 Years_, edited by Jennifer > Harris. > What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, > costuming books? > --sue > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 14:47:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NIlaIO025608 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:47:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIkp76006441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:46:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIkonG018658; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:46:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIkjnG018573 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:46:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be0b.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.11]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DD582629E8 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:46:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002d01c38203$599b0430$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:48:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Subject: [h-cost] books X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi. First i also want to apologise for not being with you for quite a while, i have ben buisy as usual. Rescently i finished the dark red saque dress i started a year ago. It is going to be used on saturday, so i wont post any pictures before after saturday. It had to be changed rather much. I had had wrong meassures, so the bodice was much two small. I had to make 2 new front bodice pieces into it, and then the skirt got two small also, and i had to make two inserted pieces into the skirt............. But i succeded even though i was scarce of fabric. The one and only bible for me is the Kyoto Costume book! The latest book i have baught is: The Victoria & Albert Museum's Textile Collection Embroidery in Britain from 1200 to 1750 . Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 15:06:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NJ6oIO025668 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:06:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHrR76001523 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:53:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHrNw8001691; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:53:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHqKw8000707 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:52:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from reddawn.net (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260A7425CE for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:54:05 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <3F7087EF.3060703@reddawn.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:50:39 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books References: <3F707CCC.29D35AD5@in-tch.com> In-Reply-To: <3F707CCC.29D35AD5@in-tch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sue Clemenger wrote: > What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, > costuming books? It was either the Braun & Schneider picture book or the SCA Known World Handbook... it was the late 80's and all the good costuming books had been out of print for a few years (just long enough to no longer be in used bookstores and library copies were starting to get stolen). I most recently bought '59 Authentic Turn of the Century Fashion Patterns.' My interests have broadened quite a bit in the last decade. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 15:09:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NJ9BIO025681 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:09:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHVZ76029269 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:31:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NHVXw8013093; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:31:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41508.mail.yahoo.com (web41508.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.91]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8NHVSw8012974 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:31:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030923173122.5632.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [193.237.15.43] by web41508.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:31:22 BST Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:31:22 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <001e01c381e8$ee2ce020$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --- Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Dear list. > I just want to burst a little, please forgive me but i must tell you. > I have never spend that much money as i did today! First of all, congratulations!!! It must have been a WONDERFUL day and I wish I could see that shop. > To save as much as i can in fabric, would it then be possible to use the > breadth of the fabric to cut in stead of using it lenghtwise? No dear, you really can't, because it will make the skirts of the coat fall all wrong. When you look at the originals, you can see the seems in the skirts where they added pieces to get the full width. If you don't cut it the way you usually would and it was done back then, when you leave the coat hanging for a while, it would all go out of shape. > The jacket pattern has almost a full sun in the "skirt" and i could not have > 2 frontpieces in one lenght. > I have baught enough fabric to use it lenghtwise, but i just wondered if i > could cut it in the breadth in stead Nope, sorry, don't do it, you'd be angry with yourself afterwards *S* > This wedding suit is going to be trimmed with silver bobbin lace and then it > shall be embroidered off cause!!! It shall be a work of art, as usual!!! Niocle ===== Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ Email: nicole@kipar.org URL: http://www.kipar.org ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 15:16:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NJG0IO025700 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:16:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJEF76008687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:14:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJECsY012332; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:14:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from orval.sprint.ca (orval.sprint.ca [209.5.194.98]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJE9sY012285 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:14:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shooie ([149.99.69.163]) by orval.sprint.ca (InterMail vM.5.01.02.00 201-253-122-103-101-20001108) with SMTP id <20030923191406.OLBY11123.orval.sprint.ca@shooie> for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:14:06 -0400 Message-ID: <013a01c38206$d3076e00$cb6afea9@shooie> From: "Sheridan & Shane" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:13:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Subject: [h-cost] First and last books X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Heh, I thought my original question might cause a few fused synapses, myself I got stuck on two favorites. One is a very simple little book, more of a pamphlet really, called 'Cut my Cote'. The other is 'Ancient Danish Textiles from Bogs and Burials' by Margrethe Hald, which is the last costuming book I purchased. The first costuming book I purchased was for a whopping 3 dollars at a used book shop, I think it had been used as a costume history text as most of the relevent text is covered in pencil and hi-light marker. The name of the thing completely escapes me at the moment, it's still packed away somewhere... Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 15:45:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NJjvIO025789 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:45:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJib76011270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:44:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJiAsY009671; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:44:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav19.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJi1sY009411 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:44:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:43:56 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav19.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:43:56 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000701c381c7$c4363df0$5b48ccd1@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:45:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2003 19:43:56.0335 (UTC) FILETIME=[069783F0:01C3820B] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Most people assume that people "back then" were much smaller because > the average during the Victorian age was 5'1 1/4" (156 cm). I know very well those facts, but you also confirm what I said, being that they were *slightly* smaller... I didn't say much smaller, and not even smaller, just *slightly* smaller, and according to your numbers, they were. I've been on this list long enough to be warned about those matters. And thanks for calling me abnormal :-) With a father that weighed 130 pounds and a mom that weighed around 90 when they got married, I just can't help being a little out of average. My point was just that if it's possible now, it certainly was possible then, and that that shoe could well be hers, and she could still be a "normal" height with "normal" sized feet, if a little small. I just wanted to point out that it was *possible*, not that it was *average*. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 15:46:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NJkAIO025795 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:46:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJj676011320 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:45:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJj6sY010730; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:45:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xmxpita.myway.com (nn7.excitenetwork.com [207.159.120.61]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJhRsY008911 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:43:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: by xmxpita.myway.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 47A3239DE; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:43:17 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com, h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Received: from [142.161.156.126] by mprdmailfe1.nwk.myway.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:43:17 EST X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = c45c0dc2769403fccb18616850e9e821 From: "Wendy" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: emmajean@myway.com X-Mailer: PHP Message-Id: <20030923194317.47A3239DE@xmxpita.myway.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com The problem is that we do look at celebrities for "normal". We are constantly being bombarded with the likes of Calista Flockhart, Courteney Cox, Laura Flynn Boyle...etc...Even if people aren't looking at fashion magazines, we still see these images on popular T.V. On the flip side, we also have incredibly sedentary lives and eat over-processed fast and convenient food. How many billions of dollars do the diet companies rake in every year? I used to work in a vintage clothing shop and now work in a shop that sells lingerie and there is a drastic difference in what constitutes "average" size. If Marilyn Munroe lived in today's world, she'd be shopping in the plus sizes. Cheers,Wendywww.hecate.ca/emma/ --- On Tue 09/23, Kass McGann < historian@reconstructinghistory.com > wrote:From: Kass McGann [mailto: historian@reconstructinghistory.com]To: h-costume@indra.comDate: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:24:26 -0400Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size?Brenda wrote:<people! -- not the thinnest, tallest, most-anorexic-or-most-physically-fitpeople that could possibly wear a certain size grouping.>>Hi Brenda. There's a common misconception that models are what we womenare expected to look like in our society and that somehow themedia/fashion industry has foisted this burden of thinness upon us.The truth is that models (particularly runway models, who are thetallest and thinnest) are not supposed to be a representation of what awoman should look like. They are supposed to be walking clothes hangersused solely for the purpose of displaying clothing in fashion shows.They're supposed to be taller and thinner than normal because theirbodies are not supposed to detract from the look of the clothing.You're not supposed to find them attractive. You're not supposed tonotice them at all.It wasn't until the 1980s when runway models started becomingcelebrities. That's when I think we all got really confused...The pattern and garment industries don't b! ase their sizes on runwaymodels. They base their sizes on a st! atistica l norm of the population.Recently that norm has been revised in because we Americans are... um..."collectively changing shape" shall we say.Garment sizes are only a starting point, not a rule for how you shouldlook. If the clothing you find on the rack is too big here or too tightthere, it should be taken to a tailor (another thing our society hasforgotten...). If they don't have your size, you need to shopelsewhere.Men don't look at male models and beat themselves up for not lookinglike them, so why should we! And male models are just as freakish asfemale models! Their narrow waists and over-developed muscles aren'trepresentative of the population. If men wore clothing made to fitthese men, no one would be able to find clothes.Don't look at models as "role models". They're just mannequins, clotheshangers, display pieces.Be who you are. Be proud of it. =)I hope this helps to put things in context a little better.Kass_______________________________________________h-costume ma! iling listh-costume@mail.indra.comhttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Introducing My Way - http://www.myway.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 15:46:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NJkUIO025798 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:46:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJjd76011362 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:45:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJjcsY011221; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:45:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav65.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.200]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJjYsY011091 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:45:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:45:29 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav65.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:45:29 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001b01c381d1$120102f0$5b48ccd1@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:47:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2003 19:45:29.0607 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E2FB170:01C3820B] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kass McGann" > Embroidery takes a lot of time and effort. I shudder to see someone who > desires to make a historic garment waste their time on something they > will eventually find is not accurate to the period. ... unless they know from the start and decide to go at it anyway because they LIKE it :-) But that just confirms the point you're trying to make. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 15:47:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NJl6IO025802 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:47:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJkI76011447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:46:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJkEsY011839; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:46:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lakemtao01.cox.net (lakemtao01.cox.net [68.1.17.244]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJk5sY011539 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:46:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from VMAAHQ ([68.96.201.18]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20030923194600.MFZN29208.lakemtao01.cox.net@VMAAHQ> for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:46:00 -0400 From: "Linda Rice" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] First and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:45:49 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c3820b$4bde5920$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <013a01c38206$d3076e00$cb6afea9@shooie> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8NJk5sY011539 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sheridan, may I ask where you got your copy of Hald? I seem to recall that it had been reprinted, but for the life of me I can't remember the details of it. (Was I dreaming? It's certainly possible!) I've looked at the used dealers, but lately it's been way overpriced. Anybody know where to get the Danish Textiles book? As far as first and last.... geez, my first costuming book was when I was in high school, called _A History of Fashion_, by Black and Garland. Picked it up at a library used-book sale. It's so-so, but it did serve to spark my imagination for costumes. Most recent book is called _The Work of Angels_, about Celtic jewelry and metalwork. Not really about clothing, but it has *very* interesting accessories. ;o> Thanks! ::Linda:: You can't always judge by appearances: the early bird may have been up all night. -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Sheridan & Shane Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: [h-cost] First and last books Heh, I thought my original question might cause a few fused synapses, myself I got stuck on two favorites. One is a very simple little book, more of a pamphlet really, called 'Cut my Cote'. The other is 'Ancient Danish Textiles from Bogs and Burials' by Margrethe Hald, which is the last costuming book I purchased. Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 15:48:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NJlxIO025806 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:47:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJks76011491 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:46:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJkqsY012414; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:46:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav40.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.97]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJknsY012299 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:46:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:46:44 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav40.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:46:43 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:48:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2003 19:46:44.0165 (UTC) FILETIME=[6AA05750:01C3820B] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate M Bunting" > I was interested to learn that, at 5'2", I'm not much below the average > size for British women. My shoe size is 5, which used to be the > commonest, but I believe that is now size 6. Hmm, is that UK sizes or US sizes? Because a UK3 is about a US5... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 15:59:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NJxoIO025831 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:59:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJwm76012483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:58:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJwkfU023384; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:58:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav53.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NJwbfU023173 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:58:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:58:32 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav53.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:58:32 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923075602.03aafa88@mail.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Average human size? (WAS: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:54:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2003 19:58:32.0527 (UTC) FILETIME=[10D7CDF0:01C3820D] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > > My mom is 5'2" and wears a size 4. > And she finds shoes outside of specialty stores and children's departments? > I'm amazed! Don't be amazed. She doesn't. And for that matter, I don't usually either with my size 5, unless I go to really cheap stores (like Payless - and I don't like shopping there) or really expensive ones. > >The usual low size for most shoe stores is 6-6 1/2 (with those > >being smaller considered "specialized"). > Again, are there regional variations? While the selection is not there, > most of the stores I shop in actually *do* carry a few models in 5's and > 5-1/2's. You're lucky. Most stores up here in Montreal start at size 6. Except the more expensive one, which *might* start at 5. But when they have a size 5, it's already sold when you get there, and you have to hunt it down. As for costuming contents... all I can say is that I'm really happy that Margo decided to design her patterns to go from sizes 2 to 30! Some commercial patterns I have to adjust because they're too big :-( _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 16:05:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NK5oIO025874 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:05:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NK4t76013078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:04:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NK4qfU028691; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:04:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav14.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.118]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NK4JfU028144 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:04:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:04:14 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav14.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:04:13 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F707CCC.29D35AD5@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:06:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2003 20:04:14.0122 (UTC) FILETIME=[DC7310A0:01C3820D] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, > costuming books? Hm... when I was in high school my mom bought me a copy of the infamous Peacock book. That was my first costuming book. But when I became interested in costuming "for real", the first book I bought was 20,000 years of fashion. I have a VERY extensive list of books I'd like to get eventually, but I think my last acquisition (a gift, actually, but I would have bought it anyway) is Fashion (by Kyoto Costume Institute). The rest are general art books I got because they were inexpensive and contained a reasonable amount of interesting portraits :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 16:14:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NKEQIO025923 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:14:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIe376005977 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:40:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIe2Oe012857; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:40:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NIdxOe012752 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:40:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from patriot.net (support.patriot.net [209.249.176.6]) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id h8NIdw1M005840 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:39:58 -0400 Message-Id: <200309231839.h8NIdw1M005840@jefferson.patriot.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:35:57 -0000 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day From: X-Mailer: TWIG 2.3.2 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I heard there is a technical reason for this, and I probably read it on this list! Whoever said it first, please take credit. When fabric is woven, the warp threads are under tension. It's this strength that makes the fabric hang best with the warp threads vertical. Linsey woolseys and cotton-linen fustians were historically made with a linen warp, but similar fabrics today tend to be made with a linen weft instead. I tend to "turn" these fabrics sideways so the warp & weft is historically correct. But I've only made lower class clothing that doesn't need to hang beautifully out of these fabrics. :-) -Carol N Kipar said: > No dear, you really can't, because it will make the skirts of the coat > fall all wrong. When you look at the originals, you can see the seems > in the skirts where they added pieces to get the full width. If you > don't cut it the way you usually would and it was done back then, when > you leave the coat hanging for a while, it would all go out of shape. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 16:26:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NKQeIO025962 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:26:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKPi76015163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:25:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKPhfU017495; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:25:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r02.mx.aol.com (imo-r02.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.98]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKPcfU017332 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:25:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.1cb.1156aeca (25098) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:22:46 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <1cb.1156aeca.2ca20596@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:22:46 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com The one book to have if you are doing early 19th century--"Revolution in Fashion." My first costume book? Not the fvery irst one I owned, but it was in my high school and public library--"The Mode in Costume." Okay, I know it has a really poor reputation today, and I understand why, but it got me hooked on historic costume. I made paper dolls with costumes from it. When I found the book at a used book sale in about 1980, I was glad to get it. Latest book, "What Clothes Reveal," to accompany the Williamsburg exhibit. (I've seen it once and must make plans to see it again.) Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 16:27:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NKREIO025966 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:27:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKP97Q015028 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:26:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKAIfU003939; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:10:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from berlinr.sprint.ca (berlinr.sprint.ca [209.5.194.99]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NK9JfU003094 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:09:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shooie ([149.99.69.163]) by berlinr.sprint.ca (InterMail vM.5.01.02.00 201-253-122-103-101-20001108) with SMTP id <20030923200827.QRJL3218.berlinr.sprint.ca@shooie> for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:08:27 -0400 Message-ID: <015601c3820e$6d481760$cb6afea9@shooie> From: "Sheridan & Shane" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c3820b$4bde5920$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> Subject: Re: [h-cost] First and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:08:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Linda Rice wrote: > Sheridan, may I ask where you got your copy of Hald? I seem to recall that it had been reprinted, > but for the life of me I can't remember the details of it. (Was I dreaming? It's certainly > possible!) I've looked at the used dealers, but lately it's been way overpriced. Anybody know where > to get the Danish Textiles book? Hi Linda, I bought it new almost two years ago, for $117 dollars Canadian in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. I had ordered it from a small local bookstore that was willing to bring in 'odd' orders. As it was they called me back twice before they placed the order to make sure I really wanted to spend that much on a book. :-) All I did was go to the store armed with the name of the book and the author, and they looked it up for me. I am *so* upset that this great little independant store was forced out of business this past summer. They were wonderful at bringing in things mainstream bookstores wouldn't. (pout, sulk) The main reason I had decided to purchase for that rather hefty sum, was that I couldn't get my hands on it any other way. I'm sure if you shop around you should be able to get a better deal, it is in print. Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 16:43:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NKhAIO026009 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:43:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKgX76016727 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:42:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKgV8I003103; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:42:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKgP8I002959 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:42:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from patriot.net (support.patriot.net [209.249.176.6]) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id h8NKgN1M022873 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:42:23 -0400 Message-Id: <200309232042.h8NKgN1M022873@jefferson.patriot.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:38:22 -0000 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books From: X-Mailer: TWIG 2.3.2 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com My first was Blanche Payne's _A History of Costume_, from my college costume history class. I kept it at the end of the semester. Ever notice how many books have that title, so we need to call them by author? :-) For the last one, Mara Riley's _Whatever Shall I Wear_. It's an excellent cheap skinny book, and while I may well already know the information I like to support independent publications and it's great for show & tell. -Carol _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 16:46:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NKkDIO026036 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:46:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKjK76017004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:45:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKjJ8I005687; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:45:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKjG8I005624 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:45:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip253.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.253]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367686A9B7 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:45:15 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:43:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Average human size? (WAS: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes) Message-ID: <3F704DEC.30247.7FC048@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > You're lucky. Most stores up here in Montreal start at size 6. Except > the more expensive one, which *might* start at 5. But when they have a > size 5, it's already sold when you get there, and you have to hunt it > down. > > As for costuming contents... all I can say is that I'm really happy > that Margo decided to design her patterns to go from sizes 2 to 30! > Some commercial patterns I have to adjust because they're too big :-( Aren't shoes part of costuming? Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 16:57:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NKvFIO026220 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:57:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKub76018057 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:56:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKuVVI015842; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:56:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKuRVI015716 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:56:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A2531E7B0022; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:51:31 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A2542D016C; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:51:32 -0500 Message-ID: <016101c38215$8be87fa0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:59:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. Subject: [h-cost] Missing in Action X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I like Bjarne have been missing in action too. We've been living a nightmare from the past couple of months. I have had to make two trips back home to Mississippi... one brother got West Nile, and another brother was bite by a brown recluse (sp) spider, and was having heart problems. I came home to Virginia for a week. During that week my mom had surgery and had major complications... so I had to go back to Mississippi for another week. Got back and rushed to get my son's Eagle Scout ceremony together for the next day. Then the following Thursday we took a direct hit from the hurricane. Spent a couple of days without electricity... then back and forth if the water was safe or not. The kids have been out of school for a week and driving us crazy from boredom... I hope they open the schools Thursday. But still trees are down everywhere and 300,000 people still don't have lights in our metro. Before all this happened, lighting hit my phones, fax/scanner/printer, and TV... the frig died a couple of days before the lighting strike, my van died and spent several days in the shop, and dog and cat got deathly ill from allergies to fleas. We have been joking that my life is becoming a country and western song. I hope the hurricane pushed all the dark clouds from over my house. Things are starting to look brighter this week, even with the power surges and intermittent internet service. After two months of being on digest version on the email lists, I am finally receiving the lists live again. Needless to say, we are going to take it easy for a while. I decided that I am not going to hold an Online Costume Ball this year. Too much stress around here and we need to settle down. I just don't want to do a rush job and it turn out poorly. I will have The Ball next year. I hope everyone understands. I know how much the people on h-costume enjoy it every year. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 16:58:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NKwhIO026230 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:58:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKvt76018199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:57:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKvsVI016932; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:57:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKvoVI016765 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:57:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A2A6CD5008C; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:52:54 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A2A733016C; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:52:55 -0500 Message-ID: <016601c38215$bd508240$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F704DEC.30247.7FC048@localhost> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:00:37 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. Subject: [h-cost] Re: Average human size X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Costume/fashion is anything you can wear... including hair, makeup, and accessories. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:03:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NL3hIO026264 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:03:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NL3276018551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:03:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NL30VI021521; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:03:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NL2tVI021374 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:02:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A3D81E9F0022; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:58:00 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A3D8390276; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:58:00 -0500 Message-ID: <017d01c38216$7355cc80$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c3820b$4bde5920$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> Subject: Re: [h-cost] First and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:05:42 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Linda, I was worried about you in VA Beach and Ron Cargarie in Williamburg. How did you make out with the hurricane? I heard that you still have about 300,000 with out lights to. When did you get your lights back? Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:05:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NL5IIO026272 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:05:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NL4W76018665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:04:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NL4VVI022894; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:04:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NL4TVI022847 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:04:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip253.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.253]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218596A7D4 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:00:16 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:02:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Message-ID: <3F705271.31418.916502@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > And thanks for calling me abnormal :-) Silly woman! Just because you are not "average" doesn't mean you are "abnormal." I went back to make sure I hadn't intimated that you were abnormal and this is what I said: "As to a size 4 shoe being small, most women in the US wear about a 7 1/2-8. The usual low size for most shoe stores is 6-6 1/2 (with those being smaller considered "specialized"). So, while you may consider yourself to be "not that small", you are." Heaven only knows that now even I am "below average". In terms of endocrinology (growth/hormone specialty), you have to be below the 5%ile to be "abnormal." Even now that is at 60' for an adult. ;) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:07:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NL7eIO026285 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:07:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NL4o76018697 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:04:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NL4nVI023152; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:04:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NL4TVI022862 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:04:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip253.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.253]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 081056A81B for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:00:18 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:02:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books Message-ID: <3F705270.31967.91633D@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3F7091AB.70909@misc.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > First book: Theatrical Patterns by Holkeboer (yes, I know...UGH; group > cringe, everybody!!) Hey, it's better than Norris, Iris Brooks, Hill & Buchnell or others that supposedly have patterns (which don't hang like the ones they are supposed to look like). It may be theatrical but it's better than so many of the others that until you learn something about how they were actually made (since there aren't too many really good books on the market which do more than work on supposition). Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:12:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NLCeIO026312 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:12:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLBl76019357 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:11:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLBfVI028852; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:11:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLBXVI028754 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:11:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip253.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.253]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E9F76A84A for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:11:32 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:09:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Message-ID: <3F705419.18989.97E001@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030923194317.47A3239DE@xmxpita.myway.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > The problem is that we do look at celebrities for "normal". We are > constantly being bombarded with the likes of Calista Flockhart, > Courteney Cox, Laura Flynn Boyle...etc... But they are also the ones under fire for looking "too skinny". We get just as many women of substance. However, most of the women who "look normal" on TV are actually smaller than the normal woman because the camera really does make you look bigger than you actually are. I've been amazed at some of the people I thought looked like they were pretty solid on TV or in pictures who look like a good wind would blow them away. So, we look at women who look pretty normal but hear them complaining about how little they weigh and what small sizes they wear and think that to look that way in public we'd have to be that small. Nope. Just don't expect to look that way in pictures or on TV. But to those who meet you in person, you'll look small if you are just a size or two bigger than what the celebs wear. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:20:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NLKGIO026369 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:20:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLJd76020037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:19:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLJYVI006082; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:19:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLJUVI006000 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:19:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115])h8NLJGrx029664 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:19:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162646.009d1640@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:28:01 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books In-Reply-To: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com One?!? Just ONE?!? Honey...I'm a librarian! I can't choose just one! Sheryl Nance-Durst (reeling from the thought of weeding down her library to just ONE!) At 10:14 AM 9/23/03 -0400, you wrote: >Greetings all! > >This should be an interesting question: > >If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live without, what >would it be? > >Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:21:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NLLGIO026381 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:21:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLKb76020132 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:20:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLKaVI006950; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:20:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lakemtao04.cox.net (lakemtao04.cox.net [68.1.17.241]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLKWVI006775 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:20:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from VMAAHQ ([68.96.201.18]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20030923212027.CHLN29227.lakemtao04.cox.net@VMAAHQ> for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:20:27 -0400 From: "Linda Rice" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] First and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:20:13 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c38218$7df8a8e0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <017d01c38216$7355cc80$0400a8c0@comcast.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Responded to privately. But, we're all ok, thanks! ::Linda:: Virginia Beach -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Penny Ladnier Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 5:06 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] First and last books Linda, I was worried about you in VA Beach and Ron Cargarie in Williamburg. How did you make out with the hurricane? I heard that you still have about 300,000 with out lights to. When did you get your lights back? Penny Ladnier _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:26:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NLQqIO026419 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:26:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLO376020557 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:24:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLO2VI010229; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:24:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLNxVI010206 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:24:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115])h8NLNssP008629 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:23:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162844.00a169f0@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:32:39 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books In-Reply-To: <3F707CCC.29D35AD5@in-tch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com My most recent would be _Dress in Detail from Around the World_ or _An Illustrated History of Hairstyles 1830-1930_. I got them both recently as gifts, but I can't remember which was last. As for the first costume book... I'd have to say the _Banana Republic Guide to Travel & Safari Clothing_. You know, from back when they were actually a surplus clothing store. Lots of little historical details in that book that got me interested in the history of clothing. I just about cried when they got bought by the Gap. Sheryl Nance-Durst At 11:03 AM 9/23/03 -0600, you wrote: >My brain is being extra-weird today, and insisting on combining two >recent threads (the busk one and the book one). >My very first costuming book was a copy of Winter & Savoy, which I still >have, although it's gone quite tattered >My most recent purchase was _Textiles: 5000 Years_, edited by Jennifer >Harris. >What about the rest of you? What were your first, and most recent, >costuming books? >--sue >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:27:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NLR3IO026422 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:27:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLQK76020736 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLQIVI012123; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:26:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLQGVI012085 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:26:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.50]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:24:43 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Missing in Action Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:26:10 -0400 Message-ID: <008e01c38219$4fcc53d0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <016101c38215$8be87fa0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Needless to say, we are going to take it easy for a while. I decided that I am not going to hold an Online Costume Ball this year. Too much stress around here and we need to settle down. I just don't want to do a rush job and it turn out poorly. I will have The Ball next year. I hope everyone understands. I know how much the people on h-costume enjoy it every year. >>>> Of course we understand, Penny. Take care of yourself. Take care of your family. And we'll all be here when you get back. =) May the clouds over your house all be gone! Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:31:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NLVwIO026473 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:31:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKGC76014321 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:16:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKG9fU009334; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:16:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav39.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.96]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NKG4fU009162 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:16:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:15:58 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav39.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:15:58 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923133349.00adcf98@mail.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:12:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2003 20:15:58.0957 (UTC) FILETIME=[809059D0:01C3820F] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > same from Misses to Petite. The sleeve lengths of jackets are similarly no > longer adjusted for the change in height. *sigh* When will they learn that > not all of us have legs and arms that go on "forever"... Well... sleeves tend to be on the short side on me. But if you're aware of the problem, sleeve length is one of the things that can be adjusted fairly easily, as long as the shoulders fit right. Length of rise is also harder to adjust than, say, inseam length on a pair of pants. I always have to modify a pattern anyway before I go at it: that's what you get for being short-waisted :-) > >Good question, but the current information coming out of the medical > >community about height is that the men's average height has recently > >been dropping. > Well then maybe there's some hope that I won't spend *all* of my life > looking straight forward... into men's belt buckles or below. Pff... I'm lucky I wasn't drinking anything when I read this ;-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 17:32:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NLWZIO026479 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:32:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLVE76021178 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:31:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLUxVI015931; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:31:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NLUqVI015801 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:30:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.50]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:29:19 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1st and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:30:47 -0400 Message-ID: <008f01c38219$f493b520$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F707CCC.29D35AD5@in-tch.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com The first was either Peacock or Hill and Bucknell. I can't remember which. But both were real purchases. They were bound photocopies. The latest... I think it was also Miss Mara's "Whatever Shall I Wear". Mine was autographed. =) Come to think of it, I didn't buy that one either. But I bought a WHOLE LOT in between! Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 18:16:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NMGtIO026714 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:16:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NM4q76024034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:04:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NM4bDf013265; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:04:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NM4XDf013157 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:04:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8NLG5YK004256 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:16:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162654.038d2008@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:15:50 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Subject: Re: RE: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com "Kass McGann" writes: >The truth is that models (particularly runway models, who are the >tallest and thinnest) are not supposed to be a representation of what a >woman should look like. They are supposed to be walking clothes hangers >used solely for the purpose of displaying clothing in fashion shows. And how does the *average* person tell whether or not a style will look good on her unless these clothes are shown on *average* bodies? (I don't count anyone in this group as "average" in that manner, since if we're not looking at a style to fit a period regardless of modern aesthetics, we're familiar enough with our own bodies' idiosyncracies that our eyes can envision how the -- usually print or TV -- models' clothing will look on our own bodies.) >It wasn't until the 1980s when runway models started becoming >celebrities. That's when I think we all got really confused... I think what "confuses" people is that the height-weight charts keep getting adapted and changed to favor thinner and thinner bodies. Based on the Metropolitan Life height-weight charts for women or the BMI scales, I'd venture that any woman over a modern size 8 (RTW) -- possibly a 10 if we're being generous -- is considered "overweight" for her height. (I will note for the record that the clothes I've most recently bought RTW -- sizes 10 and 12 -- are fitting nicely over measurements that by pattern company measurements should require sizes of 16MP/16-1/2 to 18MP/18-1/2. By the charts, I'm 10-20 lb over the high/large-frame weight-limit for my height -- and I have the flab and fat pockets to prove it.) >The pattern and garment industries don't base their sizes on runway >models. They base their sizes on a statistical norm of the population. So one would think... but then, why a 5' 6" Miss when the average height was 5' 3" or 5' 4"? >Recently that norm has been revised in because we Americans are... um... >"collectively changing shape" shall we say. Revised in RTW only, or should I ignore the marked measurements on (mundane clothes) pattern envelopes and purchase the size I wear RTW? >If the clothing you find on the rack is too big here or too tight >there, it should be taken to a tailor (another thing our society has >forgotten...). Umm... not everything can be "tailored" to fit. For years and years I've had the problem of suit jackets that were too long in the back waist and too short in the front waist (DD and DDD cup bras when the average pattern was designed for B and C cups). Unless I made my own, there was no way I could find anything that fit properly. >If they don't have your size, you need to shop elsewhere. "Elsewhere" doesn't always work -- for women *or* for men. (My SO is big, but just a touch below "average" height for men... it's a living Hell trying to find him clothes that can be tailored to fit.) >Men don't look at male models and beat themselves up for not looking like >them, Depends on the age and self-described socioeconomic status of the man. I know at least a handful of straight, middle-aged men who do just that... and I can point to dozens of younger men who I do *not* know but who it's obvious do likewise. The rest of the men I know just ignore fashion altogether and wear the same things their fathers wore, 20-30 years ago. >If men wore clothing made to fit these men, no one would be able to >find clothes. There are certain things that favor men being able to find clothes that fit: (1) Pants sold by waist and inseam, with varying inseam lengths -- or sold with unfinished inseam (to be finished by the in-store tailor). (2) "Big" and "tall" are different rises and cuts than the standard cut. (3) Suits in Cadet, Extra-Short, Short, Regular, Long, Extra-Long, XX-Long, Portly, and Athletic. (4) Shirts in varying sleeve lengths, also in Regular, Big, Tall, and Extra-Tall (though unfortunately not in "Big AND Tall/Extra-Tall", as one 6' 4", size 8X, friend needs). (5) In-store tailors in most better men's shops, with most standard alterations and finishing (sleeve cuffs, pants hems, etc.) provided gratis or near-gratis. (6) Fewer style selections that change less frequently, therefore better economic incentives to service the short or tall segments of the population (though generally not the "big" segments of the population!). "Wendy" writes: >The problem is that we do look at celebrities for "normal". We are >constantly being bombarded with the likes of Calista Flockhart, Courteney >Cox, Laura Flynn Boyle...etc... And we are told that these people -- at least as we see them in the media (i.e., after allowing for the "photographer's 10-20 lb") -- are of healthy body shapes, fitness levels, and height-weight profiles, and therefore we should aspire to be the same if we want to be *healthy*. >On the flip side, we also have incredibly sedentary lives and eat >over-processed fast and convenient food. How many billions of dollars do >the diet companies rake in every year? I'd wager that it's no more than they'd rake in if we weren't leading sedentary lives and eating fast-food: in every generation there is a fad, and there is a way of preying on people to make them believe that they need to eat differently in order to be healthy. (Consider Kellogg, of breakfast-cereal fame, for example.) The difference is that instead of emphasizing weight loss, they'll emphasize the "healthiness" of "no artificial additives or preservatives" (the whole health-food/organic diet craze of the 'seventies), or they'll emphasize the unhealthiness of eating fats, or the "ungodliness" of eating animal products, or something else like that... > I used to work in a vintage clothing shop and now work in a shop that > sells lingerie and there is a drastic difference in what constitutes > "average" size. If Marilyn Munroe lived in today's world, she'd be > shopping in the plus sizes. Not necessarily. IIRC, she wore a Size 16 in the 1950's -- measurements equivalent to a pattern size 14 today. Given the size inflation in ready-to-wear (about 3 sizes, given that I measure 16-18 but wear 10-12), that means she'd be wearing about a Size 10 RTW today. The differences might be that she might need things custom made to fit her curves; almost everything today seems to be made for board-straight bodies or for bodies that curve in one dimension only (laterally). Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 18:30:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NMUwIO026782 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:30:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMIS76025331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:18:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMIQDf024438; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:18:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail8.plugit.com [66.210.223.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMIKDf024261 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:18:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AEC213B700B0; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:44:34 -0500 Received: from penny [68.57.138.39] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AEC433011E; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:44:36 -0500 Message-ID: <01a101c3821c$f5e7a500$0400a8c0@comcast.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162844.00a169f0@pop-server.kc.rr.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:52:18 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sheryl, I know what you mean. Its is like saying which one is your favorite child. All are my books are favorites for different reasons. The day before the hurricane we moved all my Delineator and Peterson collections out of my sons' room to my bedroom. We have a rotted tree near the boys' room that we were scared it would fall. The tree never moved all through the storm. During the hurricane, my husband sat looking at the 100 ft. tall trees twirling in circles outside our bedroom window. He said, "I think you moved the Delineators to the wrong room." As to my latest additions, a 1890s Masquerque and Carnival Butterick Pattern catalog (Kimiko's on the lookout for me). Every page has two to three images and almost 200 pages. Also, two booklets from the Women's Institute of Domestic Arts and Sciences, dated 1920, with embroidery stitches. I love this series and have several. I hope to teach a class on how to do these stitches. I also have to mention... I got on eBay, dirt cheap, a lot of ten magazines published in the early 1990s called Vintage Fashions. I love this magazine... I wish it was still in publication. Each magazine is all about vintage fashions, nothing else. I do wish the articles were longer. I brought them with me to Mississippi and while my mother was recovering she looked them over. She marked the pages for me to copy for her. She really loved the lace articles. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 18:37:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NMbnIO026820 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:37:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMRE76026195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:27:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMRCDf002210; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:27:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pop-4.dnv.wideopenwest.com (pop-4.dnv.wideopenwest.com [64.233.207.9]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMRADf002101 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:27:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from there (d14-69-12-106.try.wideopenwest.com [69.14.106.12]) h8NMR3d02071 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:27:03 -0500 Message-Id: <200309232227.h8NMR3d02071@pop-4.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Michelle Plumb To: Subject: Re:[h-cost] expensive day Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:27:40 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fess up, Bjarne. How much did you spend? I'm sure it was worth whatever you paid! Michelle _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 18:45:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NMjsIO026859 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:45:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMZ976026833 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:35:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMZ7Df008532; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:35:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav53.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMZ3Df008413 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:35:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:34:58 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav53.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:34:57 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F705271.31418.916502@localhost> Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:36:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2003 22:34:58.0103 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB150C70:01C38222] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > And thanks for calling me abnormal :-) > > Silly woman! Just because you are not "average" doesn't mean you are > "abnormal." Don't worry, that was just teasing... I hope you weren't offended or anything... I was just having fun with size differences, and since I wouldn't dare pulling someone else's leg, I was pulling mine... but the Internet is not always the best for transmitting humour... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 18:58:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NMwUIO026907 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:58:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMlc76027847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:47:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMlaDf018183; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:47:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMlYDf018151 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:47:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be85.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.133]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A284247FFD0 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:47:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002e01c38225$008bab20$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200309232227.h8NMR3d02071@pop-4.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Subject: Re: Re:[h-cost] expensive day Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:49:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi, and grinning to the devil! Leif asked me the same, and i did not dare to tell him. The Duchesse Satin costed me 785, kr. a meter, and i baught 8 meters in all. 785 is a little more than 100 dollars. So i spended more than 800 dollars for 1 costume. I have never done that before, even expensive clothes for myself, i have never used that much! The reason why i dared to do it was that i only spend half of my pocket money on my holliday trip to Portugal this summer, and that was nice. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michelle Plumb" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 12:27 AM Subject: Re:[h-cost] expensive day > Fess up, Bjarne. > > How much did you spend? > > I'm sure it was worth whatever you paid! > Michelle > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 18:59:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NMx7IO026912 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:59:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMmQ76027893 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:48:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMmPDf018851; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:48:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NMmLDf018799 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:48:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.65]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:46:48 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: RE: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:48:16 -0400 Message-ID: <009001c38224$c785bcd0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162654.038d2008@mail.earthlink.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com And how does the *average* person tell whether or not a style will look good on her unless these clothes are shown on *average* bodies? (I don't count anyone in this group as "average" in that manner, since if we're not looking at a style to fit a period regardless of modern aesthetics, we're familiar enough with our own bodies' idiosyncracies that our eyes can envision how the -- usually print or TV -- models' clothing will look on our own bodies.) >>>> Not a clue. I just know that somehow our mothers managed to. >>>> I think what "confuses" people is that the height-weight charts keep getting adapted and changed to favor thinner and thinner bodies. Based on the Metropolitan Life height-weight charts for women or the BMI scales, I'd venture that any woman over a modern size 8 (RTW) -- possibly a 10 if we're being generous -- is considered "overweight" for her height. >>>> Actually, I think pharmaceutical companies have had a lot more to do with those charts than you might imagine. I say this because I've worked for them and I also have personal experience with a friend who was considered "obese" by one of these charts even though she was actually far from it. You see, you had to be statistically "obese" for a doctor to justify prescribing this diet drug, so the pharmaceutical companies change the charts. I don't condone it. I just explain it. >>>> (I will note for the record that the clothes I've most recently bought RTW -- sizes 10 and 12 -- are fitting nicely over measurements that by pattern company measurements should require sizes of 16MP/16-1/2 to 18MP/18-1/2. By the charts, I'm 10-20 lb over the high/large-frame weight-limit for my height -- and I have the flab and fat pockets to prove it.) >>>> So the downward revision in the numbers of garment sizes makes you happy. Cool! That was the garment industry's intent. >>>> So one would think... but then, why a 5' 6" Miss when the average height was 5' 3" or 5' 4"? >>>> Because their clothing looks better on longer/taller bodies? Garment makers are not out there to represent the average. They are out there to sell their clothing. If it looked better on someone short and stout, they would use them as models. I just don't see the malicious intent of "society" that so many people do. I just see a walking clothes-hanger that doesn't look like me. And so what? >>>> Revised in RTW only, or should I ignore the marked measurements on (mundane clothes) pattern envelopes and purchase the size I wear RTW? >>>> Actually, the pattern industry has revised their measurements as well. They just haven't moved the size numbers down. I have a book of pattern measurement charts from 1955 and the waist measurements are smaller by two inches and the hips smaller by an inch with comparable pattern sizes today. But a size 10 still is the size with the 25" waist. The size numbers remained relatively constant. The measurements were adjusted because women no longer wear girdles, etc. as they did in the 50s. Ready to wear decided to change all the numbers of the sizes. My Mum (who's in the garment industry) says this is to make people happy that they are buying a smaller size. But I don't know if that's the real reason or not. Could be. All I know is that when I was 13, I was a 10 in ready to wear. A few years later, I was a 6. My measurements didn't change. The numbers just did. But if you looked at the back of a pattern, I was still a 10. >>>> Umm... not everything can be "tailored" to fit. For years and years I've had the problem of suit jackets that were too long in the back waist and too short in the front waist (DD and DDD cup bras when the average pattern was designed for B and C cups). Unless I made my own, there was no way I could find anything that fit properly. >>>> Well, that's yet another problem with consumers, not the industry -- people are no longer demanding long and petite sizing, so manufacturers don't make them any more. So you have your problem. *I* wish there was more variety in sizes too. Yeah, I'm a small size and tall and I've never had a problem with fit. But I long for those days when you could buy jackets by back waist and shoes in widths... But because the majority of people want to buy jeans and T-shirts at the Gap, no one is going to make tailored clothes in all those sizes. I personally think it sucks. But I also know that the "casual menace" has taken over our society. =( >>>> "Elsewhere" doesn't always work -- for women *or* for men. (My SO is big, but just a touch below "average" height for men... it's a living Hell trying to find him clothes that can be tailored to fit.) >>>> Oh, for the days that men's stores were everywhere and tailors were on staff... >>>> Depends on the age and self-described socioeconomic status of the man. I know at least a handful of straight, middle-aged men who do just that... and I can point to dozens of younger men who I do *not* know but who it's obvious do likewise. The rest of the men I know just ignore fashion altogether and wear the same things their fathers wore, 20-30 years ago. >>>> My husband is a very fashion-conscious man. But he looks at the clothing, not the shape of the man wearing it. He doesn't sit around and beat himself up because he doesn't have washboard abs... >>>> There are certain things that favor men being able to find clothes that fit: (1) Pants sold by waist and inseam, with varying inseam lengths -- or sold with unfinished inseam (to be finished by the in-store tailor). (2) "Big" and "tall" are different rises and cuts than the standard cut. (3) Suits in Cadet, Extra-Short, Short, Regular, Long, Extra-Long, XX-Long, Portly, and Athletic. (4) Shirts in varying sleeve lengths, also in Regular, Big, Tall, and Extra-Tall (though unfortunately not in "Big AND Tall/Extra-Tall", as one 6' 4", size 8X, friend needs). (5) In-store tailors in most better men's shops, with most standard alterations and finishing (sleeve cuffs, pants hems, etc.) provided gratis or near-gratis. (6) Fewer style selections that change less frequently, therefore better economic incentives to service the short or tall segments of the population (though generally not the "big" segments of the population!). >>>> Would that we had the same thing in women's stores... >>>> And we are told that these people -- at least as we see them in the media (i.e., after allowing for the "photographer's 10-20 lb") -- are of healthy body shapes, fitness levels, and height-weight profiles, and therefore we should aspire to be the same if we want to be *healthy*. >>>> Oh puleeeeeeze! I'm sure some of us have seen such people up close. They look like death warmed over! Their hair is even unhealthy! All I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't blame anyone for our body images. If you don't think you should have to look like a model or a TV celebrity, then don't. You're perfect the way you are! How's that for feelin' the love? Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 19:04:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NN4jIO026958 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:04:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NN2m76029103 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:02:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NN2laJ000406; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:02:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav49.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.21]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NN2iaJ000309 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:02:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:02:39 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav49.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:02:38 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <009001c38224$c785bcd0$5b48ccd1@Kass> Subject: Re: RE: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:04:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2003 23:02:39.0060 (UTC) FILETIME=[C916F940:01C38226] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > And how does the *average* person tell whether or not a style will look > good on her unless these clothes are shown on *average* bodies? > >>>> > Not a clue. I just know that somehow our mothers managed to. Am I the only one thinking of those impossibly thin hand-drawn pattern cover models? I liked those, they were pretty. They replaced them with real models, because they're closer to the actual fit of the garment - and actually, the models on top of the patterns are not usually the impossibly thin type. They seem just normal to me. But I like to look at old pattern covers, because they're pretty. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 19:06:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NN6QIO026974 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:06:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NN4m76029281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:04:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NN4laJ001812; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:04:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NN4gaJ001750 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:04:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A1wD2-0006Xd-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:04:40 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:04:56 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c38227$1b4a1080$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8NN4gaJ001750 Subject: [h-cost] FW: Busk Images X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi all, I thought you might be interested in these images. At first they said they did not have any, but decided to scan them and put them up. I have a question in to them regarding if the tapered ones are meant for later corsetry since they differentiate between Tudor/Elizabethan and others. I'll let you know what they say. Sg -----Original Message----- From: Information [mailto:info@grannd.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 9:11 AM To: saragrace@earthlink.net Subject: Busk Images Hello, Since you are not the first to ask, we finally did a scan of a few busks. They are located at: http://www.grannd.com/images/wood_straight_busk.jpg and http://www.grannd.com/images/wood_taper_busk.jpg and will be linked to their items soon. Best regards, Grannd Companies > -----Original Message----- > From: saragrace@earthlink.net [mailto:saragrace@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 4:14 PM > To: info@grannd.com > Subject: Question > > > Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by > (saragrace@earthlink.net) on Monday, September 22, 2003 at 13:13:51 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------- > > Name: Saragrace Knauf > > questions: Are there pictures available somewhere of the ash wood > busks appropriate for the Elizabethan and Tudor Corsets? I don't > see any links from the product numbers. > > Thanks > > Sg > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------- > > HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT > 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705) > REMOTE_ADDR: 24.221.40.235 > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 19:11:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NNBKIO026997 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:11:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNAk76029858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:10:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNAiaJ006169; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:10:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNAeaJ006124 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:10:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115])h8NLilrx019003 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:44:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923165136.00a1b8d0@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:53:32 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] Missing in Action In-Reply-To: <016101c38215$8be87fa0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Of course we understand! A costume ball does not compare to what you've been through! Just know that you have all of my good wishes and hopes winging your way. :-) Sheryl Nance-Durst t 04:59 PM 9/23/03 -0400, Penny wrote: >Needless to say, we are going to take it easy for a while. I decided that I >am not going to hold an Online Costume Ball this year. Too much stress >around here and we need to settle down. I just don't want to do a rush job >and it turn out poorly. I will have The Ball next year. I hope everyone >understands. I know how much the people on h-costume enjoy it every year. > >Penny Ladnier _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 19:29:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NNTeIO027127 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:29:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNT476001547 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:29:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNT3aJ018357; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:29:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNT0aJ018324 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:29:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.65]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:27:26 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: RE: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:28:54 -0400 Message-ID: <009d01c3822a$74f8de10$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Am I the only one thinking of those impossibly thin hand-drawn pattern cover models? I liked those, they were pretty. They replaced them with real models, because they're closer to the actual fit of the garment - and actually, the models on top of the patterns are not usually the impossibly thin type. They seem just normal to me. But I like to look at old pattern covers, because they're pretty. >>>> There's actually been some research done on pictures on pattern covers. Apparently, if there's a photograph of a real person, the consumer feel she cannot see herself in the garment. But if there is an illustration or a photograph of the outfit on a mannequin (and by that I mean a dress dummy), the consumer is more likely to buy the pattern. Isn't that weird? You would have thought the more realistic the photo, the more inclined we would be to buy the pattern. But the research shows the contrary. Audrey, I'm wondering if the reason they used to use those stylized model illustrations on pattern cover was for precisely the same reason -- that people didn't buy "real". That style of drawing used to be in fashion magazines too. I'm a sucker for vintage patterns. Not just for the clothes, but for the design of the cover, etc. Found a whole 2 boxes of them last month that my neighbour was throwing away! Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 19:30:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NNUbIO027139 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:30:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNUG76001663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:30:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNUFaJ019137; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:30:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNUBaJ019108 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:30:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.65]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:28:37 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] FW: Busk Images Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:30:05 -0400 Message-ID: <009e01c3822a$9f4125b0$5b48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <000001c38227$1b4a1080$6501a8c0@SG01> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I've had one of grannd.com's tapered ash busks for years and it's wonderfully sturdy. Kass -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf Sent: 23 September 2003 7:05 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] FW: Busk Images Hi all, I thought you might be interested in these images. At first they said they did not have any, but decided to scan them and put them up. I have a question in to them regarding if the tapered ones are meant for later corsetry since they differentiate between Tudor/Elizabethan and others. I'll let you know what they say. Sg -----Original Message----- From: Information [mailto:info@grannd.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 9:11 AM To: saragrace@earthlink.net Subject: Busk Images Hello, Since you are not the first to ask, we finally did a scan of a few busks. They are located at: http://www.grannd.com/images/wood_straight_busk.jpg and http://www.grannd.com/images/wood_taper_busk.jpg and will be linked to their items soon. Best regards, Grannd Companies > -----Original Message----- > From: saragrace@earthlink.net [mailto:saragrace@earthlink.net] > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 4:14 PM > To: info@grannd.com > Subject: Question > > > Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by > (saragrace@earthlink.net) on Monday, September 22, 2003 at 13:13:51 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------- > > Name: Saragrace Knauf > > questions: Are there pictures available somewhere of the ash wood > busks appropriate for the Elizabethan and Tudor Corsets? I don't > see any links from the product numbers. > > Thanks > > Sg > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > --------- > > HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT > 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705) > REMOTE_ADDR: 24.221.40.235 > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 19:36:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NNa6IO027173 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:36:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNZN76001992 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:35:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNZLaJ022151; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:35:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNZIaJ022057 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:35:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from reddawn.net (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C39A425CE for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:36:57 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:33:31 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162646.009d1640@pop-server.kc.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162646.009d1640@pop-server.kc.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Speaking of books, can anyone comment on this title? 'Costume & Fashion in Colour 1550-1760 by Ruth M.Green & Jack Cassin-Scott.' I'm wondering if it is worth buying (cheap) or if it's another one of those awful '70's books with bad line drawings. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 19:39:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NNdkIO027185 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:39:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNdB76002248 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:39:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNdBaJ024385; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:39:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNd8aJ024303 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:39:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m243.in-tch.com [216.166.191.243]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8NNIgp25934 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:18:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F70DA1D.2E9076BE@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:41:17 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day References: <200309232227.h8NMR3d02071@pop-4.dnv.wideopenwest.com> <002e01c38225$008bab20$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wow! *koff, koff* I wouldn't want to tell Leif, either, if I were you. But how wonderful to find the perfect fabric for one of your wonderful outfits! --sue Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > > Hi, and grinning to the devil! > Leif asked me the same, and i did not dare to tell him. > The Duchesse Satin costed me 785, kr. a meter, and i baught 8 meters in all. > 785 is a little more than 100 dollars. > So i spended more than 800 dollars for 1 costume. > I have never done that before, even expensive clothes for myself, i have > never used that much! > The reason why i dared to do it was that i only spend half of my pocket > money on my holliday trip to Portugal this summer, and that was nice. > > Bjarne > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michelle Plumb" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 12:27 AM > Subject: Re:[h-cost] expensive day > > > Fess up, Bjarne. > > > > How much did you spend? > > > > I'm sure it was worth whatever you paid! > > Michelle > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 19:50:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8NNoMIO027243 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:50:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNnq76002949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:49:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8NNnoaJ000324; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:49:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web20806.mail.yahoo.com (web20806.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.195]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8NNnlaJ000298 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:49:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030923234947.46218.qmail@web20806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.34.73.189] by web20806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:49:47 PDT Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:49:47 -0700 (PDT) From: mlysett Subject: RE: [h-cost] Triangular busks To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Several posts have wondered what Winter and Savory had to say about busks. I have quoted all of the text mentioning the busk. "A woman who could not have a whole corset would sometimes content herself with putting a busk down the center of her bodice to stiffen it and make her look more fashionable. This will really only work well for a bodice that laces up the back instead of the front. Cut a triangle about 2"-4" across the top and about 18" long (cut it longer or shorter to fit your bodice). The busk may be made out of boning, hoop wire or metal strapping taped together, or it may be made out of one piece of metal, wood or plastic. Whatever it is made of should be stiff, but not too thick. "Make a triangular pocket on the inside of your bodice to fit the busk into. Slip the busk into the pocket and stitch the opening closed. Since most of the materials listed above are not washable, we suggest you remove the busk before washing the bodice. "Historically, the busk was the centermost piece of boning in a corset. It was shaped like a long thin triangle made of metal, wood or ivory and was often beautifully carved. When it was worn in the center of a corset, it slipped into a pocket in the front and was held there by a cord or ribbon which passed through two small holes in the busk and in the top edge of the busk pocket. The busk-string was sometimes given to a gentleman as an intimate favor. It has since develpoed into the little bow found on the front of most brasierres." There is no indication where this information came from specifically, any none of the books in the bibliography are specifically on corsetry or undergarments, so I can't dissern which books to look through from there. However, if you're interested in the full bibliography, please email me privately. Hope that helps, Margaret __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 21:32:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O1W4IO027755 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:32:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O1U076008563 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:30:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O1Tvjt018483; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:29:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O1Tsjt018455 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:29:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.133.149.98] (pm7-098.eos.net [205.133.149.98]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O1Tp5D007300 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:29:52 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:22:39 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200309232120.h8NLKpVJ007180@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver running MimeDefang and SPAMAssassin Subject: [h-cost] Re: first and last books X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com The first book I loved was called, I think, "The Mode in Costume." I got it out of our school library over and over again all through my elementary school years, and just loved the pictures. A couple of years ago I bought a reprint of it just because I had loved it so much -- it's packed away now so I can't check the title. Anyway, I'm counting that even though I didn't own it for a long time, just because of its long-lasting influence! The last book I bought was The Medieval Tailor's Assistant LAST YEAR. Not all of us buy hundreds of books! I want the little guide by The Medieval Soldier folks, but I haven't gotten it yet. Very tight budget for hobbies right now. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 21:59:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O1x6IO027909 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:59:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O1wE76009891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:58:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O1wDRQ000862; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:58:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O1w8RR000836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:58:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O1wLN2023099 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:58:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O1wL9u023097 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:58:21 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:58:21 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <001e01c381e8$ee2ce020$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <001e01c381e8$ee2ce020$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232158.21385.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 11:39 am, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Dear list. > I just want to burst a little, please forgive me but i must tell you. > I have never spend that much money as i did today! > I finally went to that shop i never visited before. It is in the > countryside, and i had to take a cab some of the way to get there. > They have more than 600 different silks to choose from, and their colour > range is vast. It sounds wonderful, Bjarne. Enjoy! -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 21:59:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O1xRIO027917 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:59:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O1wu76009928 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:58:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O1wtRQ001250; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:58:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O1wqRR001215 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:58:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O1x6N2023114 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:59:07 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O1x6Rj023112 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:59:06 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:59:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <002d01c381e0$eda61d90$5b48ccd1@Kass> <3F7066E2.4090306@reddawn.net> In-Reply-To: <3F7066E2.4090306@reddawn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232159.06421.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 11:29 am, Dawn wrote: > Kass McGann wrote: > > Medieval Finds from Excavations in London: 4 - Textiles and Clothing > > circa 1150-1450 by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay > > Staniland > > I notice there are at least 5 volumes in this series. What makes #4 > better than the others? Not all of the volumes are costume-related. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 22:07:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O27JIO027963 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:07:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O21s76010049 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:01:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O21sRQ002557; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:01:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O21nRQ002529 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:01:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.174]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:00:16 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:01:44 -0400 Message-ID: <000301c3823f$cec62af0$ae6453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in person. I wouldn't buy it unless you have a collection of awful costuming texts. =) Kass -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Dawn Sent: 23 September 2003 7:34 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books Speaking of books, can anyone comment on this title? 'Costume & Fashion in Colour 1550-1760 by Ruth M.Green & Jack Cassin-Scott.' I'm wondering if it is worth buying (cheap) or if it's another one of those awful '70's books with bad line drawings. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 22:23:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O2NrIO028042 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:23:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2N776011495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:23:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2N5RQ013025; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:23:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2N2RQ012992 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:23:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA30118 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:45:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:45:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Books In-Reply-To: <000301c3823f$cec62af0$ae6453d8@Kass> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Kass McGann wrote: > I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in > person. > > I wouldn't buy it unless you have a collection of awful costuming > texts. =) I happen to keep a collection of awful costuming texts. (They're useful in my lectures, where I trace the origins and development of costuming myths.) If anyone has a Bad Costume Book they are planning on dumping, please check with me first -- if I don't have it, I'd be delighted to add it to my collection. I just finished taking slides out of Bigelow, which was my college textbook for a fashion history class. I knew it wasn't great then, but to look at it now ... there's a 15th c. "dunce cap" hennin, impossibly long with a point, sitting so far back on the head it's parallel to the ground, and a big fluffy BOW tied around the point, with the ends of the bow trailing down like a gift-wrapped package. And it's labeled "14th century," to boot. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 22:38:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O2clIO028138 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:38:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2bq76012138 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:37:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2boRQ019498; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:37:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2bkRR019480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:37:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O2c2N2023304 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:38:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O2c16b023302 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:38:01 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:38:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> In-Reply-To: <00ac01c381dd$1c569e20$cb6afea9@shooie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232238.01483.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 10:14 am, Sheridan & Shane wrote: > Greetings all! > > This should be an interesting question: > > If you could choose one costuming book that you couldn't live without, what > would it be? Urk. I'm not sure I even *can* choose only one book.... Let me think. One costuming book I have that I couldn't live without. (There's several that I really think I *should* have but don't--that's another story.) I'd say it would be Compleat Anachronist pamphlet No. 59: "Women's Garb in Northern Europe, 450-1000 C.E.: Frisians, Angles, Franks, Balts, Vikings, and Finns," by Christina Krupp and Carolyn Priest-Dorman. It is an extremely useful combination of factual summary of the relevant research with clear instructions on how to make a reasonable imitation of the garb described on a typical (limited) SCA member's budget. And it has an absolutely wonderful bibliography--many of the items in which I have since added or am seeking to add to my costuming library. I have attempted to make reproductions of most of the garb described in that pamphlet (with varying degrees of success). That pamphlet, more than anything else, has turned my interests more toward Dark Ages garb. It also increased my previously minimal interest in attempting to achieve higher levels of authenticity in materials and construction. For $4.50 USD, that's quite an achievement. :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 22:49:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O2n6IO028182 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:49:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2mg76012495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:48:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2mfRQ024163; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:48:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2mbRQ024129 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:48:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.174]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:47:05 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:48:33 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c38246$590a6180$ae6453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I happen to keep a collection of awful costuming texts. (They're useful in my lectures, where I trace the origins and development of costuming myths.) If anyone has a Bad Costume Book they are planning on dumping, please check with me first -- if I don't have it, I'd be delighted to add it to my collection. >>>> I do too! I use them in my beginners' class on research. I call it "Good source. Bad source." =) >>>> I just finished taking slides out of Bigelow, which was my college textbook for a fashion history class. I knew it wasn't great then, but to look at it now ... there's a 15th c. "dunce cap" hennin, impossibly long with a point, sitting so far back on the head it's parallel to the ground, and a big fluffy BOW tied around the point, with the ends of the bow trailing down like a gift-wrapped package. And it's labeled "14th century," to boot. >>>> Oh... My.... =) Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 22:56:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O2uqIO028234 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:56:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2u976012965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:56:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2u5Lb027368; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:56:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2u2Lb027338 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:56:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8O2u1Fp001445 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.197.176] (tnt-1-240.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.197.176])h8O2trJY001235 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <009d01c3822a$74f8de10$5b48ccd1@Kass> References: <009d01c3822a$74f8de10$5b48ccd1@Kass> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:04:46 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: RE: RE: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8O2u2Lb027338 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 7:28 PM -0400 9/23/03, Kass McGann wrote: >Am I the only one thinking of those impossibly thin hand-drawn pattern >cover >models? I liked those, they were pretty. They replaced them with real >models, because they're closer to the actual fit of the garment - and >actually, the models on top of the patterns are not usually the >impossibly >thin type. They seem just normal to me. But I like to look at old >pattern >covers, because they're pretty. >>>>> >There's actually been some research done on pictures on pattern covers. >Apparently, if there's a photograph of a real person, the consumer feel >she cannot see herself in the garment. But if there is an illustration >or a photograph of the outfit on a mannequin (and by that I mean a dress >dummy), the consumer is more likely to buy the pattern.  > >Isn't that weird? You would have thought the more realistic the photo, >the more inclined we would be to buy the pattern. But the research >shows the contrary. There's a really peculiar tie-in to this phenomenon in the book "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud. He points out the same observation with respect to comic strips: people are more likely to identify closely with characters done in more abstract/stylized drawing styles, whereas more realistically drawn comic strips tend to be perceived as "about someone else" rather than mapped onto the reader. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 22:57:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O2vAIO028237 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:57:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2uN76012997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:56:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2uNLb027457; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:56:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2u6Lb027371 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:56:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8O2u5Fp001526 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.197.176] (tnt-1-240.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.197.176])h8O2trJa001235 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <013a01c38206$d3076e00$cb6afea9@shooie> References: <013a01c38206$d3076e00$cb6afea9@shooie> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:21:46 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] First and last books Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I think I missed the underlying question here, but I'm guessing it from the responses. I'm not sure I can remember what my first costume book was ... I've been doing this for over a quarter of a century (if you don't count early halloween costumes, but I didn't use books for them). Since I didn't tend to start buying books (as opposed to using library books) until I was in college, I'm going to guess that the first costume book I owned was Blanche Payne's "History of Costume", which was the assigned textbook for a class I took on the topic as an undergraduate. Latest ... hmm. A pity I don't date-stamp the entries in my electronic card catalog, or it would be a cinch, but going by what hasn't been shelved yet, I suspect it must be a second-hand copy of Norah Waugh's "The Cut of Women's Clothes". The one I couldn't do without? Impossible question, unless I cheat outrageously and say, "the book I'm going to write on the cut of surviving pre-modern garments". Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 22:57:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O2vJIO028240 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:57:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2ul76013029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:56:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2ukLb027669; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:56:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O2ugLc027621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:56:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O2uvN2023356 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:56:58 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O2uvoF023354 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:56:57 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] First and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:56:57 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <000001c3820b$4bde5920$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> In-Reply-To: <000001c3820b$4bde5920$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232256.57499.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 03:45 pm, Linda Rice wrote: > Sheridan, may I ask where you got your copy of Hald? I seem to recall that > it had been reprinted, but for the life of me I can't remember the details > of it. (Was I dreaming? It's certainly possible!) I've looked at the used > dealers, but lately it's been way overpriced. Anybody know where to get the > Danish Textiles book? I got mine used from Pastiche, Inc. in Oregon, having located it via an addall.com search. You're right, though, it wasn't cheap--my copy cost $100 USD. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:03:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O33NIO028265 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:03:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O32W76013356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:02:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O32VLb000450; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:02:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com (pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com [64.233.207.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O32TLb000355 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:02:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from there (d14-69-12-106.try.wideopenwest.com [69.14.106.12]) h8O313F03089 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:01:03 -0500 Message-Id: <200309240301.h8O313F03089@pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Michelle Plumb To: "Historical Costume" Subject: Re:[h-cost] expensive day Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:03:00 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-RAVMilter-Version: 8.4.1(snapshot 20020919) (pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Geez, Bjarne! I think that's more than reasonable for high-quality silk! It only comes to about 10 dollars a meter. I can't wait to see you in your beautiful outfit. Take lots of pictures! Michelle _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:04:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O340IO028268 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:04:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O33L76013405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:03:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O33LLb000771; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:03:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt21.cluster1.charter.net (remt21.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.31]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O33JLb000717 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:03:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.169.191.177] (HELO charter.net) by remt21.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP id 218850 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:03:07 -0400 Message-ID: <3F710919.46566829@charter.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:01:45 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Period Fabrics X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I've received lots of good advice on here, so now it's time to go to the fabric store. The question is, does there exist a one-stop-shop online for good period fabrics? My guideline for this round of clothing is King James' highland wardrobe, as recorded by his own treasurer. Short highland jacket 2 1/4 ells vari-colored velvet 3 ¼ ells green taffeta lining Tartan trews 2 ells highland tartan Long highland shirt 15 ells linen 2 ounces silk thread 4 ells ribbons for wrists of shirt As to how some of this would appear in final form, I'm still a but unsure (but I am listening). :o) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:11:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O3BDIO028298 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:11:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3Aj76013861 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:10:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3AhLb004137; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:10:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3AeLc004109 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:10:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O3AtN2023481 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:10:55 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O3AtQ9023479 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:10:55 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:10:54 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <000301c3823f$cec62af0$ae6453d8@Kass> In-Reply-To: <000301c3823f$cec62af0$ae6453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232310.54921.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 10:01 pm, Kass McGann wrote: > I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in > person. > > I wouldn't buy it unless you have a collection of awful costuming texts. > =) I haven't seen the particular book Dawn asked about, but I have seen other books where Cassin (Cassin-Scott I think it is, actually) was an author, and the colors were not only non-historical, they were so garish to make me nauseous. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:14:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O3E4IO028314 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:14:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3Db76013971 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:13:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3DbLb005337; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:13:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3DYLc005324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:13:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O3DnN2023513 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:13:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O3Dn3f023511 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:13:49 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] First and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:13:49 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <000001c3820b$4bde5920$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> <015601c3820e$6d481760$cb6afea9@shooie> In-Reply-To: <015601c3820e$6d481760$cb6afea9@shooie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232313.49342.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 04:08 pm, Sheridan & Shane wrote: > Linda Rice wrote: >> Anybody know where > > to get the Danish Textiles book? [SNIP] > I bought it new almost two years ago, for $117 dollars Canadian in > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. I had ordered it from a small local bookstore that > was willing to bring in 'odd' orders. As it was they called me back twice > before they placed the order to make sure I really wanted to spend that > much on a book. :-) >[SNIP] > The main reason I had decided to purchase for that rather hefty sum, was > that I couldn't get my hands on it any other way. I'm sure if you shop > around you should be able to get a better deal, it is in print. Is it? I was under the impression that it is not, in fact, in print. Or at least that the English language edition is not (the original was of course in Danish). -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:15:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O3FUIO028332 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:15:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3Ep76014037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:14:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3EpLb005882; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:14:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3ElLc005852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:14:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O3F2N2023528 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:15:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O3F2Qm023526 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:15:02 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:15:02 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162844.00a169f0@pop-server.kc.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162844.00a169f0@pop-server.kc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232315.02426.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 05:32 pm, Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote: [snip] > I'd have to say the _Banana Republic Guide to Travel & Safari Clothing_. > You know, from back when they were actually a surplus clothing store. > Lots of little historical details in that book that got me interested in > the history of clothing. I just about cried when they got bought by the > Gap. I remember the days when Banana Republic was still controlled by Mel and Pat Ziegler. Most of my wardrobe (and my husband's) at the time came from there! Yes, I was sad when the Gap acquired them too. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:29:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O3TCIO028403 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:29:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3Sf76014757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:28:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3SdLb012940; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:28:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3SaLb012898 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:28:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-67.74.247.153.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([67.74.247.153] helo=4gxif) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A20KQ-0004OJ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:28:35 -0400 Message-ID: <061a01c3824b$e520dc80$99f74a43@4gxif> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c3820b$4bde5920$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> <200309232256.57499.cathy@thyrsus.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:28:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm always keeping an eye out for a copy myself; I'd like to have the whole book someday. Anyway, there's a copy on offer at www.abebooks.com for $131.33 US. (Not currently in my price range...) -Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:35:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O3ZgIO028436 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:35:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3Yx76015218 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:35:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3YwLb016336; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:34:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3YsLc016280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O3Z9N2023577 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:35:09 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O3Z9D2023575 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:35:09 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:35:09 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass> <004401c38171$8cd717e0$d033a5d1@pavilion> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232335.09048.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Monday 22 September 2003 10:03 pm, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lisa Sinervo" > > > The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from Mary > > Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see > > www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm > > > . A low heel and VERY small, like a modern US size 4 would be my guess. > > Well, a US size 4 is not that small, I'm 5'3" and I wear a size 5. My mom > is 5'2" and wears a size 4. And weren't people "back then" supposed to be > slightly smaller than us? Um, there's an assumption here that a shorter than average person would have smaller than average feet. Even today, that's not always so. I am 5' 1" and wear a US size 7 C shoe. (That comes to a European size 37, I think). My cousin Ann, who is few inches taller (and significantly heavier) than me wears a US size 6 A. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:41:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O3f7IO028461 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:41:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3eT76015516 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:40:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3eQLb019315; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:40:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3eMLc019284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:40:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O3ebN2023610 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:40:37 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O3ebF2023608 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:40:37 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:40:36 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <000701c381c7$c4363df0$5b48ccd1@Kass> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232340.36891.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 03:45 pm, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: > > Most people assume that people "back then" were much smaller because > > the average during the Victorian age was 5'1 1/4" (156 cm). > > I know very well those facts, but you also confirm what I said, being that > they were *slightly* smaller... I didn't say much smaller, and not even > smaller, just *slightly* smaller, and according to your numbers, they were. > I've been on this list long enough to be warned about those matters. Bear in mind too that "average" in this context is "arithmetic" average. In other words, the figure is low because there were (proportionately speaking) more people around at the low end of the size scale than there are today. That doesn't mean that there weren't very large people, and people we'd consider average size, just as there are today. For example, Henry VIII and Thomas Jefferson were both over 6 feet tall. If anyone doubts this, check out on-line sellers of vintage costume, who come up from time to time with period garments that are of a "modern" wearable size. (I've even seen some that would be wearable by larger women--I remember seeing a dress from the '20's on a site the other day sized for a woman with a 42 inch bust.) > And thanks for calling me abnormal :-) With a father that weighed 130 > pounds and a mom that weighed around 90 when they got married, I just can't > help being a little out of average. I don't know what my dad weighed when my parents got married, but *my* mom was 90 pounds also. Dad was 5' 3", but grew several inches in height afterward, and Mom was 5' 2". -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:47:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O3lIIO028490 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:47:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3kQ76015839 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:46:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3kOLb022122; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:46:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from berlinr.sprint.ca (berlinr.sprint.ca [209.5.194.99]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3kLLb022101 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:46:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shooie ([149.99.69.195]) by berlinr.sprint.ca (InterMail vM.5.01.02.00 201-253-122-103-101-20001108) with SMTP id <20030924034619.YHLJ3218.berlinr.sprint.ca@shooie> for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:46:19 -0400 Message-ID: <01f401c3824e$629b22e0$cb6afea9@shooie> From: "Sheridan & Shane" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c3820b$4bde5920$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ><200309232256.57499.cathy@thyrsus.com> <061a01c3824b$e520dc80$99f74a43@4gxif> Subject: Re: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:40:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Pinto > I'm always keeping an eye out for a copy myself; I'd like to have the whole > book someday. Anyway, there's a copy on offer at www.abebooks.com for > $131.33 US. > (Not currently in my price range...) > -Aidan Wow guys, I don't know what to tell you, when I bought my book it was in print, my bookstore would have said otherwise. A friend of mine bought her copy last year, also new, from a regular bookstore in her city. Suddenly I am thinking the price I paid for it wasn't so bad after all. I have a friend who is in publishing, perhaps I can get a definitive answer from her... Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:49:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O3nhIO028513 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:49:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3mx76015981 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:48:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3mxLb023325; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:48:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.surewest.net (smtp2.surewest.net [208.45.228.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8O3muLb023280 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:48:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 22969 invoked from network); 24 Sep 2003 03:48:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DD84JW21) (66.205.128.11) by smtp2.surewest.net with SMTP; 24 Sep 2003 03:48:49 -0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20030923204201.00ba9fe8@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:48:36 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" In-Reply-To: <061a01c3824b$e520dc80$99f74a43@4gxif> References: <000001c3820b$4bde5920$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> <200309232256.57499.cathy@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2 SNWK2 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 11:28 PM 9/23/2003 -0400, you wrote: >I'm always keeping an eye out for a copy myself; I'd like to have the whole >book someday. Anyway, there's a copy on offer at www.abebooks.com for >$131.33 US. >(Not currently in my price range...) > -Aidan Oh, dear, now I feel old. I bought Hald when I found the English translation (when I first heard about the book it had not yet been translated) in the early 1980s. My copy is marked $45.95 and that was an expensive book when I bought it. So, actually, the $100+ price is not unreasonable; book prices have increased a great deal in the last 20 years or so. And it's a wonderful book; I don't remember how many times I have read it. Joan Jurancich joanmj@surewest.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 23 23:51:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O3pjIO028529 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:51:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3p676016108 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:51:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3p5Lb024270; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:51:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O3p2Lc024253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:51:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O3pHN2023630 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:51:17 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O3pHhr023628 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:51:17 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Missing in Action Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:51:17 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <016101c38215$8be87fa0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <016101c38215$8be87fa0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309232351.17193.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 04:59 pm, Penny Ladnier wrote: > I like Bjarne have been missing in action too. [description of misfortunes snipped] > We have been joking that my life is becoming a country and western song. I > hope the hurricane pushed all the dark clouds from over my house. Things > are starting to look brighter this week, even with the power surges and > intermittent internet service. After two months of being on digest version > on the email lists, I am finally receiving the lists live again. So do we. But you've made it through, Penny--that's the main thing. Hold that thought. > > Needless to say, we are going to take it easy for a while. I decided that > I am not going to hold an Online Costume Ball this year. Too much stress > around here and we need to settle down. I just don't want to do a rush job > and it turn out poorly. I will have The Ball next year. I hope everyone > understands. I know how much the people on h-costume enjoy it every year. I will miss it myself. But I understand that life sometimes prevents us from doing what we'd like, or what is most fun. Hope you're in a better situation next year! -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 00:01:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O414IO028580 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:01:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O40I76016666 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:00:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O40GTE028282; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:00:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O40ETE028264 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:00:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115])h8O409br003840 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:00:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923230522.00a18cc0@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:08:53 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books In-Reply-To: <01a101c3821c$f5e7a500$0400a8c0@comcast.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162844.00a169f0@pop-server.kc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Oh, I just bought a few booklets on dress construction put out by the Women's Institute! I was considering making my first 20's dress and thought they'd be useful. Sheryl N-D At 05:52 PM 9/23/03 -0400, Penny wrote: > Also, two booklets from the Women's Institute >of Domestic Arts and Sciences, dated 1920, with embroidery stitches. I love >this series and have several. I hope to teach a class on how to do these >stitches. > >Penny Ladnier _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 00:08:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O48uIO028611 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:08:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O48O76016990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:08:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O48LTE002173; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:08:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O48GTF002124 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:08:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8O48UN2023722 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:08:31 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8O48T5K023720 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:08:29 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:08:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <3F701CFC.12481.415AC218@localhost> In-Reply-To: <3F701CFC.12481.415AC218@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309240008.28814.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 01:14 pm, kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > My brain is being extra-weird today, and insisting on combining two > > recent threads (the busk one and the book one). My very first > > costuming book was a copy of Winter & Savoy, which I still have, > > although it's gone quite tattered My most recent purchase was > > _Textiles: 5000 Years_, edited by Jennifer Harris. What about the rest > > of you? What were your first, and most recent, costuming books? Oh, my. Do you mean, "What were your first, and most recent, costuming book purchases?" Or do you mean "What were the first, and most recent, costuming books you've read?" I no longer remember which was the first costuming book I purchased; there have been so many. However, I remember the first costuming book I read; it was the Cunningtons' Handbook of English Medieval Costume, which I borrowed from the local public library. Conversely, I can't really say what the most recent costuming book I've read/am reading, since I usually have at least half a dozen I'm reading simultaneously. But I can tell you the last one I bought. It's an old museum catalogue: "Weaving China's Past: the Amy S. Clague Collection of Chinese Textiles," published by the Phoenix Art Museum. I bought it because I saw it on addall.com for about half the price it was shown at elsewhere, and because I was hoping it would have information about the kinds of textile designs that were typical of the Warring States Period. (A friend of mine claims he's writing a live-action role playing game set in China in the Warring States period, and if he ever finishes it, I want to be able to show up in the right costume.) :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 00:14:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O4EMIO028632 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:14:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O4Dn76017353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:13:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O4DmTE005058; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:13:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O4DjTF005034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:13:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dandy.net (acty1038.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.242.38]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h8O4Dd7B025969 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:13:41 -0400 Message-ID: <3F7119EC.1040705@dandy.net> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:13:32 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes References: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass> <004401c38171$8cd717e0$d033a5d1@pavilion> In-Reply-To: <004401c38171$8cd717e0$d033a5d1@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi, All. My apologies if I haven't gotten back to anyone recently, the Infernal Machine has been offline with various problems. I'm certainly no shoe expert, but I think that piece has been mislabelled. It certainly looks like an 18th Cent shoe to me. The "latchets", or where you would tie the shoe are wide and overlapping, like those worn in the late 18th Cent. with large decorative buckles. For the late 16th Cent., it is certainly not a *low* heel. There is no way of using those "latchets" for fastening the shoe, save that of the buckle, and although buckles of some forms were used on shoes prior to the late 16th Cent., they had gone out of fashion until the 1660s, when they reappeared, fairly small, and increased in size as time went on. Latchet shoes (ties) were still worn at the same time that buckles came back into fashion, though. There are plenty of extant 16th Cent. shoes out there. Kass, or anyone else, I will give you a biblio if you want. The most recent published work is by Olaf Goubitz (edited, actually), and there is a selection from N America in the Oxbow "Archaeology of Wrecks" book. Goubitz shows the women's shoes, though. The N American ones were from a wreck in Newfoundland (Basque sailors, probably not any women). Though not of any historical consequence, *my opinion* is that heels (the separate variant, not to be confused with platform shoes such as chopines) came to Western Europe by way of Eastern Europe, where they are seen on boots of variants used by riders (Poles, Tartars, Cossacks, Turks and the like), most probably to help keep the foot from sliding through the stirrup (a sort of catch), at a slightly earlier time than when they became fashionable in the West. This is a simplified solution, much like the one I have posited for coats having become longer throughout the 17th Cent. due to Eastern influences (The hongreline, cassock and greatcoat merging into the later coat of the late 17th/early 18th cent.) which, I have been assured is an oversimplification of the issue ;). You can look at illustrations of Eastern European men from the late 16th Cent. (Vecellio 1596, Turkish independent Bravo # 374 in Dover book or #403 Hungarian costume, or Turnau "History of Dress in Central and Eastern Europe..." pg 73 illo 22 "Two Polish Noblemen" dated 1572) to see the shoe style. These are not a stacked heel, as in later shoe styles, but almost a wedge or lift forming in the heel, giving an arched profile to the instep, similar to the "Elizabeth" buskins. Hope this helps, Mike T. > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 00:19:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O4JtIO028660 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:19:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O4JG76017576 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:19:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O4JETE007564; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:19:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O4JATE007494 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:19:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m110.in-tch.com [216.166.191.110]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O3wkp25116 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:58:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F711BC2.A17BEBE6@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:21:22 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day References: <200309240301.h8O313F03089@pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I think you misunderstood him. It was 785 kroner per metre, or about $100/meter. It must be phenomenal stuff at that price! --sue Michelle Plumb wrote: > > Geez, Bjarne! > > I think that's more than reasonable for high-quality silk! > It only comes to about 10 dollars a meter. > > I can't wait to see you in your beautiful outfit. Take lots of pictures! > > Michelle > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 01:03:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O53NIO028868 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:03:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O52t76019945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:02:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O52qjj026326; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:02:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O52njj026275 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:02:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a249.in-tch.com [66.62.107.49]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8O4gPp12513 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:42:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F7125FD.834640DD@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:05:01 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [h-cost] Website for good quality faux furs X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Saw the catalogue these guys produce, and was curious enough to google around and see if they had a website. Now, they're *definitely* not cheap, but they do sell by the yard, and they have some lovely-looking stuff. I'd always liked the idea of doing something (maybe a 1540s English gown with big sleeves, as in that portrait that used to be thought of as Lady Jane Grey) involving fur or a good substitute. Since most of us don't have access to real furs, and some may not wish to support that particular industry, these guys seem like a not-bad alternative to bring to your attention. --sue _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 01:30:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O5U4IO029008 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:30:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O5TR76020938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:29:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O5TPjj007583; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:29:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt4.ihug.co.nz (grunt4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.44]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O5TLjj007530 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:29:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p577-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.194.69] by grunt4.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A22DG-000889-00; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:29:19 +1200 Message-ID: <003901c3825c$d133c960$45c2adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F7125FD.834640DD@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Website for good quality faux furs Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:29:24 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sorry, what was this in reference to? You didn't include the link so you must have either left it off or figured we'd remember what email you are referring too;) I'm very interested, so could you please pass on the link? michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com > Saw the catalogue these guys produce, and was curious enough to google > around and see if they had a website. > Now, they're *definitely* not cheap, but they do sell by the yard, and > they have some lovely-looking stuff. I'd always liked the idea of doing > something (maybe a 1540s English gown with big sleeves, as in that > portrait that used to be thought of as Lady Jane Grey) involving fur or > a good substitute. Since most of us don't have access to real furs, and > some may not wish to support that particular industry, these guys seem > like a not-bad alternative to bring to your attention. > --sue > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 04:06:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O86GIO013401 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 04:06:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O84C76026048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:04:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O84AhU008215; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:04:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O847hU008175 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:04:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id h8O84dA00495.; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:04:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:03:54 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.0 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:03:26 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Queen of Scots shoe?? was: da Vinci shoe article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> audreybmorin2@hotmail.com 09/23/03 08:48pm >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate M Bunting" > I was interested to learn that, at 5'2", I'm not much below the average > size for British women. My shoe size is 5, which used to be the > commonest, but I believe that is now size 6. >Hmm, is that UK sizes or US sizes? Because a UK3 is about a US5... Yes, I realised from subsequent comments that US shoe sizes must be different from UK ones. UK 5 is European 38. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 04:35:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O8ZtIO022351 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 04:35:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O8ZA76027166 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:35:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O8Z6hU019189; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:35:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41502.mail.yahoo.com (web41502.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8O8Z1hU019102 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:35:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030924083456.467.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.66.208.11] by web41502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:34:56 BST Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:34:56 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F7091AB.70909@misc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --- Theresa Eacker wrote: > First book: Theatrical Patterns by Holkeboer (yes, I know...UGH; group > cringe, everybody!!) Why????? It is a LOVELY book for exactly what it says on the cover: theatrical patterns. I made some really nice history inspired clothes for every day wear from those patterns. Nicole ===== Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ Email: nicole@kipar.org URL: http://www.kipar.org ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 04:51:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O8pBIO031184 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 04:51:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O8oS76027752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:50:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O8oOhU025040; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:50:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O8oKhU025012 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:50:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLP009UWN7UQS@draco.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:52:13 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes In-reply-to: <004401c38171$8cd717e0$d033a5d1@pavilion> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030924014929.02878968@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass> X-DCC-dmv.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1181; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 06:25 PM 9/22/2003 -0700, you wrote: >The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from Mary >Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm >. A low heel and VERY small, like a modern US size 4 would be my guess. I >see quite a few 16th century leather possible turnsole shoes on the >antiquities market, but not much else. > >Lisa Sinervo Hi all, I am catching up on days of emails, and still haven't finished. Maybe tomorrow sometime. Hmmm... all this talk about shoe sizes, modern or otherwise. My sleepy mind however recalls comments that Mary, QoS was a tall woman, although I would have to look up just how tall. Not sure how that fits into the commentary or equation of *when* this shoe belongs. I too am curious about more info on this shoe. I have a thing for Mary QoS. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 05:02:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O921IO002927 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:02:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O91H76028107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:01:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O91FB4028628; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:01:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41507.mail.yahoo.com (web41507.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8O91DB4028597 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:01:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030924090108.42596.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.66.208.11] by web41507.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:01:08 BST Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:01:08 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <000701c38200$c812c4f0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --- Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > > However the embroidery was quite fashionable. > The silver lace i make for this, is a little similar to your baroque dress. > But i changed the pattern and made it more round and curved. I hope you dont > mind i use it! Not at all, of course not!!!! > Now the best part of all that work i am going to do is drawing a pattern for > the embroidery. This time i will use more colour than i did in the first > jacket. > Oh i cant waite to start! It sounds wonderful! > Thanks for your good advises Nicole! You are most welcome. Looking forward to see pictues of your progress Nicole ===== Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ Email: nicole@kipar.org URL: http://www.kipar.org ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 05:05:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O95MIO002948 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:05:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O94Z76028213 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:04:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O94YB4029854; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:04:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O94UB4029832 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:04:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fc0.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.192]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 4D2AF47FE8F for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:04:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c3827b$34e2e860$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:06:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Subject: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi. Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would like to see it! http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 05:27:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O9RuIO003063 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:27:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O9QU76029482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:26:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O9QSB4004395; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:26:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O9QPB4004374 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:26:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id h8O9R9A05811.; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:27:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:26:24 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.0 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:25:48 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com The stomacher is exquisite, Bjarne! I've started on an experimental piece of stumpwork (a small panel for the lid of my woodwind reed case), but I'm sure it won't be anything like so fine as your work. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> drewscph@post12.tele.dk 09/24/03 10:06am >>> Hi. Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would like to see it! http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ________________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information on a proactive email security service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com ________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 05:29:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O9TcIO003078 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:29:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O9SX76029564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:28:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O9SXB4005134; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:28:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41502.mail.yahoo.com (web41502.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8O9SVB4005103 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:28:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030924092826.10414.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.66.208.11] by web41502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:28:26 BST Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:28:26 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <000701c3827b$34e2e860$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --- Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Hi. > Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would like to > see it! > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm > >Lovely as ever!!!! Nicole ===== Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ Email: nicole@kipar.org URL: http://www.kipar.org ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 05:30:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8O9UUIO003090 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:30:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O9TS76029613 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:29:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O9TSB4005511; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:29:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8O9TQB4005468 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 03:29:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0964.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.197]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54DA1A03EE for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:29:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <3F7164F9.2060009@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:33:45 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished References: <000701c3827b$34e2e860$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Jummie.. That is beautiful! I wish I had more time to work on my big embroidery project. But last saturday I worked on my forepart at a "medieval" market and got payed for doing it too :-) . I think I got a lot of people inspired. It was so much fun sitting in the sun working and talking to many interested people. Greetings, Deredere Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: >Hi. >Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would like to >see it! >http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm > > >Bjarne > > > > >Leif og Bjarne Drews >www.my-drewscostumes.dk > >http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 07:00:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OB06IO003648 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:00:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OAxR76002452 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 04:59:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OAxQPn006640; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 04:59:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.suscom.net (smtp.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OAxNPn006590 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 04:59:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E2BD11B25E4 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <01ad01c3828a$e540e900$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000701c3827b$34e2e860$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:59:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com It's beautiful, Bjarne. As always! Dianne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 5:06 AM Subject: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished > Hi. > Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would like to > see it! > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm > > > Bjarne > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 08:38:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OCcEIO004198 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:38:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OCYt76006269 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OCYr3j014191; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:34:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from protactinium.btinternet.com (protactinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.176]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OCYp3j014172 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:34:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host81-129-63-143.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.129.63.143] helo=dan) by protactinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 1A28r4-0000Ey-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:34:50 +0100 Message-ID: <003101c38298$523ee7c0$8f3f8151@dan> From: "Stevie Gamble" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001e01c381e8$ee2ce020$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:35:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bjarne wrote: > This wedding suit is going to be trimmed with silver bobbin lace and then it > shall be embroidered off cause!!! > And it will, of course, be ready for the Bath Ball in the spring! And I shall see it, and you, in all your glory. Gloat, gloat:-) I think I must start work on a same period gown, but I'm a bit wary of telling Bella about this. I suspect that she will insist that she will partner you, and I can be her chaperone, on the grounds that well brought up girls always had a chaperone, and she dances much better than I do. All of which is true, alas. So, any recommendations on what a chaperone around 1770 would have worn? best wishes Stevie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 09:15:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ODFbIO004763 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:15:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODDd76008669 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:13:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODDcsr000182; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:13:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODDZsr000119 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:13:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a233.in-tch.com [66.62.107.33]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OCrAp02301 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:53:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F719904.54857ED7@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:15:48 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Website for good quality faux furs References: <3F7125FD.834640DD@in-tch.com> <003901c3825c$d133c960$45c2adcb@michaela> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Oh, gawd, I'm sorry. Here's the link: http://fabulousfurs.com/search.asp?t=c&c=9 Thanks, Michaela! --sue, slinking away in embarrassment.... michaela wrote: > > Sorry, what was this in reference to? You didn't include the link so you > must have either left it off or figured we'd remember what email you are > referring too;) > > I'm very interested, so could you please pass on the link? > > michaela > http://costumes.glittersweet.com > > > Saw the catalogue these guys produce, and was curious enough to google > > around and see if they had a website. > > Now, they're *definitely* not cheap, but they do sell by the yard, and > > they have some lovely-looking stuff. I'd always liked the idea of doing > > something (maybe a 1540s English gown with big sleeves, as in that > > portrait that used to be thought of as Lady Jane Grey) involving fur or > > a good substitute. Since most of us don't have access to real furs, and > > some may not wish to support that particular industry, these guys seem > > like a not-bad alternative to bring to your attention. > > --sue > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 09:20:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ODKNIO004778 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:20:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODIG76009253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:18:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODIFsr002295; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:18:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODICsr002262 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:18:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234])h8ODIBhP021969 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:18:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030924091700.00b79828@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:18:14 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished In-Reply-To: <000701c3827b$34e2e860$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bjarne, Wonderful work! Bridgette >Hi. >Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would like to >see it! >http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm > > >Bjarne Mari Stewart Cornell University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 09:25:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ODPlIO004798 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:25:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODP17S009742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:25:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODMksr004382; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:22:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODMhsr004367 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:22:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-44-200.jps.net ([209.165.44.200] helo=pavilion) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A29bO-0002GA-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:22:43 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c3829f$609fc440$c82ca5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass> <5.2.1.1.0.20030924014929.02878968@64.87.54.245> Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 06:25:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I've sent the museum director an email and am waiting for a response too. The shoe never struck me as renaissance looking, but I was more interested in the medieval time period at the time I saw it. I asked for the history and measurements too. The basic shape of the shoe matches 16th century images, but the fastening does not and the fabric pattern doesn't quite fit either. The British Museum did quite a bit of work with the Abbey and their collections, (to my knowledge) so I really didn't question my, I don't think this is right feeling, as in, who am I to know? I'll give you the update when I get a response. Cheers, Lisa Sinervo www.thrednedlestrete.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kimiko Small" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes > At 06:25 PM 9/22/2003 -0700, you wrote: > >The Abbey Museum of Art and Archaeology in Australia has a shoe from Mary > >Queen of Scots, late 16th century. see www.thrednedlestrete.com/extant.htm > >. A low heel and VERY small, like a modern US size 4 would be my guess. I > >see quite a few 16th century leather possible turnsole shoes on the > >antiquities market, but not much else. > > > >Lisa Sinervo > > > Hi all, > > I am catching up on days of emails, and still haven't finished. Maybe > tomorrow sometime. > > Hmmm... all this talk about shoe sizes, modern or otherwise. My sleepy mind > however recalls comments that Mary, QoS was a tall woman, although I would > have to look up just how tall. Not sure how that fits into the commentary > or equation of *when* this shoe belongs. > > I too am curious about more info on this shoe. I have a thing for Mary QoS. > > Kimiko > > > > Kimiko Small > Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother > kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com > "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell > > Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery > http://www.costumegallery.com > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 09:29:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ODTOIO004814 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:29:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODSf76009953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:28:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODSdsr007227; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:28:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.68]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODSasr007151 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:28:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gary ([66.20.171.3]) by imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.27 201-253-122-126-127-20021220) with SMTP id <20030924132829.EKYV1781.imf20aec.mail.bellsouth.net@gary> for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:28:29 -0400 From: "Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Website for good quality faux furs Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:29:24 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3F719904.54857ED7@in-tch.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Gosh, those prices are outrageous! $99 for a yard of fake lynx fur...yeesh... Apollonia Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi Seneschal of the Incipient Canton of Salesberie Glen Kingdom of Atlantia www.livejournal.com/users/apollonia **La vita senz'onore e un viver morto.** -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Sue Clemenger Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 9:16 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Website for good quality faux furs Oh, gawd, I'm sorry. Here's the link: http://fabulousfurs.com/search.asp?t=c&c=9 Thanks, Michaela! --sue, slinking away in embarrassment.... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 09:40:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ODerIO004855 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:40:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODcJ76010337 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:38:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODcIsr011948; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:38:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14007.mail.yahoo.com (web14007.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8ODcEsr011928 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030924133814.82948.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14007.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:38:14 BST Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:38:14 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] Period Fabrics To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F710919.46566829@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com http://www.fabric.com http://www.srfabrics.com I would suggest you use cotton velvet or cotton velveen INSTEAD of polyester or rayon velvet. It will be cooler and will wear better. For the Tartan, I would try some of the clan association websites, even if you're not looking for a particular tartan. Sometimes they have discounted prices for the lighter weight wools. http://www.clanirwin.org --- Joe Robertson wrote: > I've received lots of good advice on here, so now > it's time to go to > the fabric store. The question is, does there exist > a one-stop-shop > online for good period fabrics? My guideline for > this round of clothing > is King James' highland wardrobe, as recorded by his > own treasurer. > > Short highland jacket 2 1/4 ells vari-colored > velvet > 3 ¼ ells green > taffeta lining > > Tartan trews 2 ells highland > tartan > > Long highland shirt 15 ells linen > 2 ounces > silk thread > 4 ells > ribbons for wrists of > shirt > As to how some of this would appear in final form, > I'm still a but > unsure (but I am listening). :o) > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 09:52:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ODqJIO004880 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:52:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODpb76011192 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:51:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODpZsr018444; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:51:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net (imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.59.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODpVsr018326 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:51:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gary ([66.20.171.3]) by imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.27 201-253-122-126-127-20021220) with SMTP id <20030924135124.FQNE1821.imf17aec.mail.bellsouth.net@gary> for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:51:24 -0400 From: "Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Website for good quality faux furs Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:52:19 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com But I do like their "Kitty Hammock" under the Pets section... Apollonia Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi Seneschal of the Incipient Canton of Salesberie Glen Kingdom of Atlantia www.livejournal.com/users/apollonia **La vita senz'onore e un viver morto.** -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Sue Clemenger Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 9:16 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Website for good quality faux furs Oh, gawd, I'm sorry. Here's the link: http://fabulousfurs.com/search.asp?t=c&c=9 Thanks, Michaela! --sue, slinking away in embarrassment.... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 09:55:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ODtCIO004887 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:55:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODsZ76011388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:54:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODsZsr019955; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:54:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu (kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu [169.147.4.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ODsXsr019894 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:54:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KUMC-SMTPOUT-DOMAIN-MTA by kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:54:26 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:54:16 -0500 From: "Catherine Kinsey" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [h-cost] Re: 1st and last books X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > First book: Theatrical Patterns by Holkeboer (yes, I know...UGH; group > cringe, everybody!!) Hey, it's better than Norris, Iris Brooks, Hill & Buchnell or others that supposedly have patterns (which don't hang like the ones they are supposed to look like). It may be theatrical but it's better than so many of the others that until you learn something about how they were actually made (since there aren't too many really good books on the market which do more than work on supposition). Kat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have found Holkeboer handy to help first time costumers visualize pattern layout and to start them thinking about working without a net (ie; commercial pattern). And as it was a present (my madien name is Strand so one of my sisters felt I just *had* to have it), I don't have to feel quilty for putting it the shelf next to Arnold, Davenport and the others :). Catherine Glad to hear folks managed to ride out Isabel and best of luck on the lights. As a survivor of several ice storms that knocked out power for days in the middle of winter, if you can, beg/borrow a generator! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:02:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OE2bIO004905 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:02:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OE2276011834 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:02:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OE21ML023944; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:02:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OE1uMM023861 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:01:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8OE8J0q003384 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:08:19 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F71A3FC.2030201@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:02:36 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Website for good quality faux furs References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Signora Apollonia Margherita degli Albizzi wrote: > Gosh, those prices are outrageous! $99 for a yard of fake lynx > fur...yeesh... It's getting close to Halloween here in the USA and many stores will have fake fur, most of which is icky, but I've had good luck at Hancock Fabrics. I got some "mink" that looks just like the $99 stuff from this website, for probably $15/yard. It is fun to stroke, unlike the cheap stuff -- let your hands do the "looking" for you! Here's the pictures about the huge houppelande that I lined with the stuff. In retrospect, I think the fur should have been thinner/more flexible than the very plump "mink" style, but live and learn.... http://www.virtue.to/articles/laurel/laurel_constr.html -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. -- Noam Chomsky _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:08:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OE8QIO004919 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:08:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OE6B76012128 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:06:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OE6AML026355; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:06:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web80501.mail.yahoo.com (web80501.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.79.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8OE68ML026306 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:06:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030924140602.83570.qmail@web80501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.52.135.9] by web80501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:06:02 PDT Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:06:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jen Small Subject: Re:[h-cost] expensive day To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <200309240301.h8O313F03089@pop-1.dnv.wideopenwest.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com No actually he was saying it was $100/yd, which is not super outrageous for high quality silk! Michelle Plumb wrote:Geez, Bjarne! I think that's more than reasonable for high-quality silk! It only comes to about 10 dollars a meter. I can't wait to see you in your beautiful outfit. Take lots of pictures! Michelle _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:10:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OEAAIO004923 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:10:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OE9c76012548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:09:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OE9aML028571; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:09:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav58.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.193]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OE9XML028444 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:09:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:09:28 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav58.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:09:28 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F71A3FC.2030201@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Website for good quality faux furs Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:11:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Sep 2003 14:09:28.0779 (UTC) FILETIME=[77CF39B0:01C382A5] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Here's the pictures about the huge houppelande that I lined with the > stuff. In retrospect, I think the fur should have been thinner/more > flexible than the very plump "mink" style, but live and learn.... > http://www.virtue.to/articles/laurel/laurel_constr.html > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent Oh, wow. I want one :-) (Mental note to self... -- should stop adding projects to the list, because you already have enough things to go 15 years or so...) Ehehe :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:20:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OEKpIO004955 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:20:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEJr76013338 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:19:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEJoML005230; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:19:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.uvm.edu (badger.uvm.edu [132.198.101.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEJmML005200 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:19:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uvm.edu (ip104036.uvm.edu [132.198.104.36]) by smtp.uvm.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEJlSv025242 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:19:47 -0400 Message-ID: <3F71A807.5080606@uvm.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:19:51 -0400 From: Hope Greeenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162654.038d2008@mail.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162654.038d2008@mail.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >>If Marilyn Munroe lived in today's world, she'd be >> shopping in the plus sizes. Ahh Google. Gotta love it: http://www.jessicaseigel.com/marilyn.shtml - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:22:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OEMhIO004967 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:22:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OELp76013535 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:21:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OELoML006531; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:21:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OELlML006436 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:21:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.147.199fb398 (3890) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:21:39 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <147.199fb398.2ca30273@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:21:39 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Yummy! I'll take a dozen. Now, where's the gown that goes around it? ;-P Have you decided how and with what you are going to actually make the stomacher? A scrap of wonderful block printed cotton for the back [as seen in "What Clothes Reveal]? Boned or unboned? A turned edge, bound edge? Tabs at the point....with matching embroidery of course? You do the BEST work! I love following your projects.....and nagging you about details. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:26:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OEQoIO004981 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:26:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEPh76013872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:25:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEPgML009002; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:25:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEPdML008973 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:25:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115])h8OEPVrx016520 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:25:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030924092851.00a28670@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:34:18 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] Period Fabrics In-Reply-To: <20030924133814.82948.qmail@web14007.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3F710919.46566829@charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com For the linen, I recommend http://www.fabrics-store.com They have really good prices and have a variety of weights. They'll also send you free swatches to help you decide which linen you want. I've been quite satisfied with them in the past. I know it's not the one-stop-shop you asked about, but you can really save a lot of money on the linen. Sheryl Nance-Durst At 02:38 PM 9/24/03 +0100, you wrote: > --- Joe Robertson wrote: > >I've received lots of good advice on here, so now > > it's time to go to > > the fabric store. The question is, does there exist > > a one-stop-shop > > online for good period fabrics? My guideline for > > this round of clothing > > is King James' highland wardrobe, as recorded by his > > own treasurer. > > > > Long highland shirt 15 ells linen > > 2 ounces > > silk thread > > 4 ells > > ribbons for wrists of > > shirt _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:29:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OET0IO004993 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:29:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OES576014021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:28:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OES5ML010442; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:28:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OES2ML010420 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:28:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115])h8OERwbr009234 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:28:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030924093622.00a2bc40@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:36:44 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished In-Reply-To: <000701c3827b$34e2e860$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com You are still the master! Sheryl N-D At 11:06 AM 9/24/03 +0200, Bjarne wrote: >Hi. >Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would like to >see it! >http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm > > >Bjarne > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:33:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OEXFIO005007 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:33:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEWZ76014373 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:32:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEWYML013210; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:32:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEWUMM013137 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:32:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8OEcr0q003502 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:38:53 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F71AB26.20206@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:33:10 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162654.038d2008@mail.earthlink.net> <3F71A807.5080606@uvm.edu> In-Reply-To: <3F71A807.5080606@uvm.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hope Greeenberg wrote: >>> If Marilyn Munroe lived in today's world, she'd be >>> shopping in the plus sizes. > > Ahh Google. Gotta love it: > http://www.jessicaseigel.com/marilyn.shtml Cool! Thanks, Hope! I wonder if the problem is not simply wishful-thinking, but a misunderstanding of the already-discussed change in dress sizes. If, say, MM was an "old size 12" which is now an 8 (or whatever) maybe people reading it don't know they need to convert. I hope she can post pictures of Marilyn in these gowns for comparison, but she would have to get permission from the photographers, which might be a bit of a fuss. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. -- Noam Chomsky _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:36:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OEahIO005029 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:36:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEXS76014430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:33:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEXRML013802; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:33:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav30.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.87]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEXPML013721 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:33:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:33:20 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav30.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:33:19 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F710919.46566829@charter.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030924092851.00a28670@pop-server.kc.rr.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Period Fabrics Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:35:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Sep 2003 14:33:20.0526 (UTC) FILETIME=[CD327AE0:01C382A8] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheryl Nance-Durst" > For the linen, I recommend > http://www.fabrics-store.com I've bought from them also and been generally satisfied, but they've sent me slubby linen on several occasions, so check the images carefully before ordering. Their 3.5 oz linen is great, though. I prefer to buy from http://www.fabric.com . I've always been satisfied with the quality of their stuff, and customer service is simply amazing. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 10:51:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OEpIIO005078 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:51:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEn376015630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:49:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OEn1ML023451; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:49:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8OEmwML023366 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:48:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OpUlYwKuadznOksS57JJEg0=">; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:48:06 PDT Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JAUP7TVH; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:48:06 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:06:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished Message-ID: <20030924.074703.1588.0.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-28 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Lovely, as always. Wish I had your talent! :-) Arlys On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:06:57 +0200 "Bjarne og Leif Drews" writes: > Hi. > Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would > like to > see it! > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm > > > Bjarne > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 11:12:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OFCqIO005134 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:12:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OFC676017661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:12:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OFC4Xn010584; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:12:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OFBvXn010481 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:12:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be60.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.96]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 98FE95EE1FC for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:11:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000f01c382ae$93e5b0d0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <147.199fb398.2ca30273@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:14:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Albertcat. In pressent moment, i dont know. This is a commision work, as there is a lady who wants to buy it. I dont think she wants it for a costume, but simply hang it on the wall in a frame. So i am not sure if she wants me to actually sew (mount) it as a stomacher, or she wants the flat square fabric hanged at the wall. But if i was going to make it as a real stomacher, i would make it with extra tabs at the bottum, as it is an early 18th century pattern. With extra embroidery. And thankyou for your lovely phraise, i dont think i do the best, but i guess it shows when you have fallen in love with your work. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished > Yummy! I'll take a dozen. > > Now, where's the gown that goes around it? ;-P > > Have you decided how and with what you are going to actually make the > stomacher? A scrap of wonderful block printed cotton for the back [as seen in "What > Clothes Reveal]? Boned or unboned? A turned edge, bound edge? Tabs at the > point....with matching embroidery of course? > > You do the BEST work! I love following your projects.....and nagging you > about details. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 11:29:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OFT2IO005164 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:29:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OFSF76019066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:28:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OFSDXn023047; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:28:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OFSAXn023006 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:28:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([209.204.72.45]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:26:35 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:28:06 -0400 Message-ID: <002301c382b0$74dc5e80$2d48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <000f01c382ae$93e5b0d0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >And thankyou for your lovely phraise, i dont think i do the best, but i >guess it shows when you have fallen in love with your work. > >Bjarne Bjarne, it IS lovely. It certainly shows that you love your work. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 11:54:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OFsnIO005217 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:54:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OFrq76021977 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:53:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OFrkXn013883; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:53:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web80502.mail.yahoo.com (web80502.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.79.72]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8OFrfXn013690 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:53:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030924155334.67051.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.52.135.9] by web80502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:53:34 PDT Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:53:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jen Small To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F7061DE.4040108@thibault.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Cotehardie question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hello felllow costumers! I have a question for all of you... I'm in the SCA, and have become more and more dedicated to authentic clothing since I began my clothing career there. However, since I became more research-oriented, I have focused mostly on later-SCA period (1490 and later). I have beautiful "army-green" linen, and I would like to make 14th-century cotehardies for my husband and myself (you know, after they get tight-fitting with lots of buttons). I want to do surface decoration on them, but don't know a lot about what is appropriate. So my question is -- what kind of surface decoration is period for this garment? I have seen some illuminations with the women's cotehardies with horizontal bands of embroidery or trim spaced regularly down the body. What I would really like to do is something at the neckline and cuffs of both mine and his. I have some beautiful cord for couching and some baltic amber that looks kickin' with it, but am uncertain as to what I can "get away with". Sadly, I can no longer bring myself to do something that is undocumentable!!! Thanks in advance for your advice and resources!!! --Jen Small THL Gianetta Andreini da Vicenza (ps -- I don't have a website, but if you want to see a picture of my 1585 Vecellio dress, click here: http://www.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos03.cgi?cat=kayleigh and go to the 23rd item (!) ) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 12:24:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OGOvIO005303 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:24:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGIu76024102 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:18:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGIs6j005128; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:18:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGIo6j005072 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:18:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be60.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.96]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id F09A447FF77 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:18:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001101c382b7$ed0d3e40$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:21:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Subject: [h-cost] my new suit. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi. Now i have worked a site you can se with planning of the new suit. I have ben thinking about this projekt for a long time, and i actually new wich motifs i was going to use. These flower sprays are going to kill me. If i am going to make them as accurate as the drawing, then i must do much more than i have done so far. I fear for the rose, i think a rose is the most difficult flower to embroider, and the colours. They should be in such shades, that they goes perfect with the pale blue Duchesse Satin. I think it will take me some time to watercolour the drawing in those colours i should use............... But so far i can start the silverlace, i am going to make some meters of that............. http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/newembroideredsuit.htm Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 12:33:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OGXfIO005363 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:33:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGWP76025428 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:32:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGWN6j016357; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:32:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGWI6j016293 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:32:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be60.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.96]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 243E85EE1AE for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:32:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002001c382b9$d1d05d40$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001e01c381e8$ee2ce020$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <003101c38298$523ee7c0$8f3f8151@dan> Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day- Chaperone Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:35:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Dear Stevie, A Chaperone could be anyone, couldnt it? A relative or something, friend of the family? I think you could use a lot of styles. Anglaise dress, a Pied en Lair (short saque backed jacket) or a saque dress. There are many possibilities. It could be great fun, if you came dressed two! And forgive me but i dont think i can finish it all ready for next spring, well it depends of many things, but this embroidery is going to be much more intricate. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stevie Gamble" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day > Bjarne wrote: > > > This wedding suit is going to be trimmed with silver bobbin lace and > then it > > shall be embroidered off cause!!! > > > > And it will, of course, be ready for the Bath Ball in the spring! > > And I shall see it, and you, in all your glory. Gloat, gloat:-) > > I think I must start work on a same period gown, but I'm a bit wary of > telling Bella about this. I suspect that she will insist that she will > partner you, and I can be her chaperone, on the grounds that well > brought up girls always had a chaperone, and she dances much better > than I do. All of which is true, alas. > > So, any recommendations on what a chaperone around 1770 would have > worn? > > best wishes > > Stevie > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 12:35:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OGZOIO005409 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:35:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGYg76025666 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:34:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGYf6j018278; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:34:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGYc6j018229 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:34:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be60.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.96]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 5642747FED9 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:34:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002601c382ba$257728c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:37:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Subject: [h-cost] OT gossip of the royals in Denmark X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com What do you say. Our Crownprinse Frederik finally desided to get merried. He has chosen a girl named Mary Donaldson from (hold your seat) Tasmania. They are going to have their wedding in May next year. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 12:55:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OGt3IO005887 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:55:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGs176027313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:54:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGrw6j004771; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:53:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ureach.com (mail.ureach.com [63.150.151.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGrs6j004725 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:53:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail22.ureach.com (mail22.ureach.com [172.16.2.82]) by ureach.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA17590 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:53:53 -0400 Received: from TEENADESKTOP (adsl-19-82-189.asm.bellsouth.net [68.19.82.189]) by mail22.ureach.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA20866 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:53:53 -0400 Message-ID: <001301c382bc$75659540$240110ac@TEENADESKTOP> From: "Teena Paradise" To: "Historical Costume" References: <002601c382ba$257728c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wedding suit Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:54:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bjarne I have been searching the web trying to find a picture of Gustaf III's wedding suit. I found one page that had a video showing some gorgeous clothing, but I don't speak Swedish so I couldn't understand which was which. You don't happen to have a photo of it, do you? Your creations are so beautiful, I would love to see what you are using for your inspiration this time. Thanks! Teena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 12:37 PM Subject: [h-cost] OT gossip of the royals in Denmark > What do you say. > Our Crownprinse Frederik finally desided to get merried. > He has chosen a girl named Mary Donaldson from (hold your seat) Tasmania. > They are going to have their wedding in May next year. > > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 12:58:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OGwFIO005965 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:58:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGvP76027590 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:57:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGvOGp007748; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:57:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OGvKGp007690 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:57:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.204]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:55:46 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT gossip of the royals in Denmark Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:57:17 -0400 Message-ID: <002801c382bc$e9d24540$2d48ccd1@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <002601c382ba$257728c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bjarne, Have you ever seen the American cartoon "The Tasmania Devil"? It put a funny wedding picture in my head. When I worked in a research laboratory, we had a scientist from Tasmania. We used to call him "The Tasmanian Devil". But he deserved it! I hope your Crown Prince and his bride will be very happy in their new life. Kass -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: 24 September 2003 12:37 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] OT gossip of the royals in Denmark What do you say. Our Crownprinse Frederik finally desided to get merried. He has chosen a girl named Mary Donaldson from (hold your seat) Tasmania. They are going to have their wedding in May next year. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 13:13:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OHDtIO006400 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:13:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OHCw76029024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:12:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OHCuGp020857; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:12:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OHCqGp020788 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:12:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip184.126-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.126.184]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBAF6A89A for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:10:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] Books Message-ID: <3F716D7D.26134.4E30D2A@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000601c38246$590a6180$ae6453d8@Kass> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Robin wrote: > I happen to keep a collection of awful costuming texts. (They're > useful in my lectures, where I trace the origins and development of > costuming myths.) If anyone has a Bad Costume Book they are planning > on dumping, please check with me first -- if I don't have it, I'd be > delighted to add it to my collection. >>>> Kass wrote: I do too! I use > them in my beginners' class on research. I call it "Good source. Bad > source." =) Yep. I have a shelf which is nearly hidden where I keep all of them so that the people who come to visit my library don't think it's a good book because I have it. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 14:16:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OIGMIO007373 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:16:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIFR76005645 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:15:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIFO9W020165; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:15:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIFG9W020002 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:15:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-67-121-124-142.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.121.124.142])h8OIFDw5002040 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:15:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:10:15 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: RE: worst book (was [h-cost] Books In-Reply-To: <000301c3823f$cec62af0$ae6453d8@Kass> References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in >person. > >I wouldn't buy it unless you have a collection of awful costuming texts. So what's the worst historical costume book ever printed? My vote goes for Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other votes? CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 14:32:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OIWbIO007411 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:32:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIVs76006960 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIVq9W007353; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:31:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web80101.mail.yahoo.com (web80101.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.169.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8OIVl9W007284 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:31:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030924183147.41227.qmail@web80101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.122.24.155] by web80101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:31:47 PDT Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:31:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jennifer Fleury To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200309241632.h8OGWf6k016607@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] fabulous furs X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If you're interested in buying fur from Fabulous Furs, watch out for their remnants and clearances because often the prices are REALLY good, in some cases 70% off-especially if you need a yard or less Also, re: Mary Qof Scots, I think Kimiko mentioned remembering she was supposedly tall, and I remember reading that she was 5' 11"! The number sticks in my mind because it's amazing, but I'm still trying to find my source for it. I do know however that Queen Elizabeth commented that Mary was too tall and she herself was just right. IF it's true, I can't imagine her having size 4 shoes, she'd fall over! I'll try to find the source...... Jennifer Fleury Guild Master 2003-2004 The Guild of St. Augustine www.guildofstaugustine.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 14:47:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OIl6IO007454 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:47:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIi376007890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:44:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIi19W019415; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:44:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIhw9W019342 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:43:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-67-121-124-142.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.121.124.142])h8OIhtw5015829 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:43:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030924113613.05221b70@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:41:21 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: RE: [h-cost] Books In-Reply-To: <3F716D7D.26134.4E30D2A@localhost> References: <000601c38246$590a6180$ae6453d8@Kass> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > I happen to keep a collection of awful costuming texts. (They're > > useful in my lectures, where I trace the origins and development of > > costuming myths.) If anyone has a Bad Costume Book they are planning > > on dumping, please check with me first -- if I don't have it, I'd be > > delighted to add it to my collection. >>>> > >Kass wrote: > I do too! I use > > them in my beginners' class on research. I call it "Good source. Bad > > source." =) > >Yep. I have a shelf which is nearly hidden where I keep all of them >so that the people who come to visit my library don't think it's a >good book because I have it. I have a book I picked up in Australia, which I refer to as The Hippie's Guide to Costuming From Scrounged Parts. It's for grade school and high school theatre departments, and doesn't even pretend to historical accuracy. I keep it on the shelf with my other Hippie-needlework and fibre-art books. They advocate the use of things like gold painted chicken bones, bead and button collage, paper lace, and anything else that looks sort-of right from 25 feet away. It's lots of fun rather than actually awful. (My computer is no longer in the same part of the house as my book case.) CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 14:57:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OIv2IO007489 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:57:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIuD76008900 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:56:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIuAUv001861; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:56:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIu5Uv001783 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:56:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be60.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.96]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F75848007A for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:56:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001a01c382cd$ecd78640$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:59:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Carolyn I agree wholeharted with you. Peacox' s book is awfull because they are so badly drawn. The only good thing of this book is the colours. I like many of the colour combinations he has done. Another good book i loved a lot. Was a book where you could cut out the figures and costumes, fold them and bend them, whatever- and glue them together. They became 3 dimensional costume dolls. Beginning with a lady with a big hennin, and ending with an edwardian lady. The renaissance figure was a drum shaped farthingale with a fan ruff. They also had backgrounds you could place each doll in the correct background, I made them all and my room was full of these dolls Grinning out loud!!! This was many years ago, off cause :-) Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 4:10 AM Subject: RE: worst book (was [h-cost] Books > > >I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in > >person. > > > >I wouldn't buy it unless you have a collection of awful costuming texts. > > So what's the worst historical costume book ever printed? My vote goes for > Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other votes? > > > CarolynKayta Barrows > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > www.FunStuft.com > > //// \\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ))) > ((( <> )))) > ) (((((( > /----\ /---\)) > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 15:01:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJ1WIO007507 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:01:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJ0o76009304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:00:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJ0oUv006517; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:00:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m05.mx.aol.com (imo-m05.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJ0lUv006378 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:00:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.97.3e5290fc (4560) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <97.3e5290fc.2ca343ca@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:00:26 EDT Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com In a message dated 9/24/2003 2:16:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kayta@frys.com writes: > My vote goes for > Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other votes? > I don't know who was responsible, but I hate....HATE...with a passion "The Mode in Costume". Or as I like to call it, The Commode in Costume". Not only are the redrawings of perfectly good painting dreadful, the descriptions are hysterical! "Large bow at front." Well, I can SEE that myself! And colors from paintings [we all probably would recognize] are inexplicatively changed in the useless descriptions for the useless and terrible black and white drawings. My friend who collected vintage had an amusingly bad book on identifying vintage clothes. I don't believe there was a single 19th century dress in the book, but there was lots of teens stuff. Anything with a ruffle on the bottom was "circa 1860". As were nylon net 2 ring hoops. Pitiful! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 15:10:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJADIO007524 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:10:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJ9N76010115 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:09:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJ9GUv014858; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:09:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJ97Uv014711 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:09:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from patriot.net (support.patriot.net [209.249.176.6]) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id h8OJ961M030051 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:09:06 -0400 Message-Id: <200309241909.h8OJ961M030051@jefferson.patriot.net> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:05:05 -0000 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] First and last books From: X-Mailer: TWIG 2.3.2 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I bought my copy of Margarathe Hald 20 years ago, when it was new & fresh, and it cost $50. Considering inflation on top of it being out of print, $100 isn't so bad. :-) It doesn't have color photos, but was probably expensive due to a small print run. If I recall, the Kyoto book, Barbara Johnson, and QE's Wardrobe (original printing) are selling secondhand for proportionately more than their original cover prices. -Carol Catherine Olanich Raymond said: > I got mine used from Pastiche, Inc. in Oregon, having located it via an > addall.com search. You're right, though, it wasn't cheap--my copy cost $100 > USD. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 15:16:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJG6IO007536 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:16:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJFA76010644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:15:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJF1Uv020849; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:15:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJEuUv020666 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:14:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8OJEnLh002136 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:14:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030924150214.039ced78@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:14:30 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT gossip of the royals in Denmark Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bjarne wrote: >What do you say. >Our Crownprinse Frederik finally desided to get merried. >He has chosen a girl named Mary Donaldson from (hold your seat) Tasmania. >They are going to have their wedding in May next year. Having read the "To Be Young And Royal" spread in the September issue of _Vanity Fair_, my first reaction was, "Finally?! He's such a young man!" Then I went back and noted he's 34 years old and his younger brother (Prince Joachim) has been married since 1995 and has two sons... No wonder it's a "_finally_ decided" matter! I bet you Danes have been awaiting this since the time Prince Joachim announced his engagement! Now, to see if there will be photo spreads available on the Web or in US magazines so we can see their wedding attire... Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 15:27:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJR7IO007570 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:27:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIbq76007448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:37:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIbm9W013202; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:37:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OIbi9W013161 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:37:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be60.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.96]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 932E4262944 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:37:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000c01c382cb$5af95ed0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:40:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Subject: [h-cost] Gustaf III' s wedding suit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If you want to see pictures of the actual costume i am using as pattern, go to their website: http://www.lsh.se/livrustkammaren/ It only works with the swedish text. Scroll down on the menubar on the left side A menu is called "Se samlingarna" Click that. On top of the site there is a link called Regentlängd. Click that then you get a whole timeline. Then find Gustav III and click that. Then you have some items on the left you can click. Amungst those is the wedding suit. 3 pictures in all. The text says that the king was 5 years old when he got engaged to the danish princesse Sophia Magdalena in 1751. The wedding took place in the Castlechurch in 1766. His suit was made in silver silk, decorated with goldembroidery of shining suns and clouds. The suit was made in a famous Paris workshop. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 15:28:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJSbIO007574 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:28:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJRZ76011814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:27:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJRVUv003556; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:27:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from carbon.btinternet.com (carbon.btinternet.com [194.73.73.92]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJRNUv003412 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:27:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host81-128-233-225.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.128.233.225] helo=dan) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 1A2FII-0001qk-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:27:22 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c382d1$f40bdde0$e1e98051@dan> From: "Stevie Gamble" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001e01c381e8$ee2ce020$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711><003101c38298$523ee7c0$8f3f8151@dan> <002001c382b9$d1d05d40$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] expensive day- Chaperone Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:27:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bjarne wrote: > A Chaperone could be anyone, couldnt it? A relative or something, friend of > the family? > I think you could use a lot of styles. Anglaise dress, a Pied en Lair (short > saque backed jacket) or a saque dress. There are many possibilities. > It could be great fun, if you came dressed two! OK, provided I don't have to be dowdy I'll do it! > And forgive me but i dont think i can finish it all ready for next spring, > well it depends of many things, but this embroidery is going to be much more > intricate. Not to worry; Bella and I will just have to attend the Bath Ball and put up with your old amazing clothes. It's not exactly a sacrifice... best wishes Stevie and Bella _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 15:35:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJZJIO007587 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:35:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJYN76012371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:34:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJYKUv010824; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:34:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from carbon.btinternet.com (carbon.btinternet.com [194.73.73.92]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJYGUv010747 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:34:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host81-128-233-225.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.128.233.225] helo=dan) by carbon.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 1A2FOw-0003OD-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:34:14 +0100 Message-ID: <001701c382d2$e97c8220$e1e98051@dan> From: "Stevie Gamble" To: "Historical Costume" References: <002601c382ba$257728c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT gossip of the royals in Denmark Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:34:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bjarne wrote: > What do you say. > Our Crownprinse Frederik finally desided to get merried. > He has chosen a girl named Mary Donaldson from (hold your seat) Tasmania. > They are going to have their wedding in May next year. Bella spent the summer in Tasmania visiting her stepmother's family, and apparently this is the most exciting thing to happen in Tasmania for several decades. I wouldn't get your hopes up too much about the bride's outfit, though... best wishes Stevie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 15:35:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJZNIO007591 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:35:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJX976012289 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:33:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJX4Uv009472; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:33:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ureach.com (mail.ureach.com [63.150.151.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJWwUv009384 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:32:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail22.ureach.com (mail22.ureach.com [172.16.2.82]) by ureach.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11101 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:32:58 -0400 Received: from TEENADESKTOP (adsl-19-82-189.asm.bellsouth.net [68.19.82.189]) by mail22.ureach.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA16157 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:32:58 -0400 Message-ID: <003501c382d2$ae748240$240110ac@TEENADESKTOP> From: "Teena Paradise" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000c01c382cb$5af95ed0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gustaf III' s wedding suit Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:33:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Oh my goodness! That is exquisite! And thanks for the tips on how to find it. I never would have found it alone. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 2:40 PM Subject: [h-cost] Gustaf III' s wedding suit > If you want to see pictures of the actual costume i am using as pattern, go > to their website: > http://www.lsh.se/livrustkammaren/ > It only works with the swedish text. > Scroll down on the menubar on the left side > A menu is called "Se samlingarna" > Click that. > On top of the site there is a link called Regentlängd. Click that then you > get a whole timeline. > Then find Gustav III and click that. > Then you have some items on the left you can click. > Amungst those is the wedding suit. 3 pictures in all. > The text says that the king was 5 years old when he got engaged to the > danish princesse Sophia Magdalena in 1751. > The wedding took place in the Castlechurch in 1766. > His suit was made in silver silk, decorated with goldembroidery of shining > suns and clouds. > The suit was made in a famous Paris workshop. > > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 15:50:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OJoZIO007620 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:50:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJn576013531 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:49:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJmqUv025977; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:48:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta6-svc.business.ntl.com (mta6-svc.business.ntl.com [62.253.164.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJmjUv025816 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:48:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Imedia5043 ([80.1.29.101]) by mta5-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with SMTP id <20030924180140.OYYP11835.mta5-svc.business.ntl.com@Imedia5043>; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:01:40 +0100 Message-ID: <016201c382c5$e482ee60$95000150@Imedia5043> From: "Dawn Wood" To: , "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:01:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] petty Chapman trading X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8OJoZIO007620 I have been asked by Dave Rushworth to pass this information on As of March 2003 Petty Chapman has been a sole trader under the ownership and direction of David Rushworth of 92 Norman road Birkby Huddersfield HD2 2UD 01484 480867. A deed of retirement date 03/03/2003 signed by Lindy Pickard is available for view Any other person or persons or a trading address other than 92 Norman road Birkby Huddersfield perporting to be trading as Petty Chapman is spurious and indeed fraudulent. It is to be hoped that any member of the public having paid by cheque a sum of money to any person or persons alleging themselves to be trading as Petty Chapman will understand that any debts so incurred for non delivery of goods promised, these debts are the sole responsibility of the person or persons to whom the cheque is made out. In other words, if your cheque has been made out to A N OTHER then A N OTHER is responsible to deliver the goods promised or return money As of the above date there is no connection between David Rushworth & Lindy Pickard Dave Rushworth thanks Dawn wood Ages Of Elegance makers of historical clothing, uniforms and bridalwear http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6717 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 16:00:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OK0SIO007682 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:00:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJuj76014153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:56:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OJuWgq004275; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:56:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web12007.mail.yahoo.com (web12007.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.215]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8OJuSgq004202 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:56:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030924195628.33411.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.221.225.240] by web12007.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:56:27 PDT Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:56:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Cascio Michael To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] Happy Dance/russet woolens X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hello the list, I just got my biopsy results and the cancer was benign. Snooopy Happy Dances around room and will probably do same for hours and days. Now that I know I'll be around to at least consider finishing some of my projects I need either rust or pumpkin or mustard colored wool. Russet in the red-brown or cinnamon shades is preferred and I need either pant weight or crepe weight. I really would prefer someplace that swatches so I can see how well the samples felt. Any suggestions? Cassandra __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 16:07:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OK7lIO007708 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:07:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OK6d76015047 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:06:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OK6Ygq015104; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:06:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OK6Tgq014904 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:06:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.106] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id A844519013C; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:02:12 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c382d7$e94fb380$6a5183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F716D7D.26134.4E30D2A@localhost> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Books Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:10:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com My first costume know-how probably would fit the category...Stage Costumes and How to Make Them by Julia Tompkins. 1972. Primitive indeed, she bases all the 4-5 Centuries of a man's pj and robe pattern and suggests a bodice/skirt and sheath dress with a full sleeve and a strait sleeve to use for women's wear. She gives the shape breakdown for the period needed and shows how to cut the new shapes using the basic pattern for scale and size. Funny thing, I used that book for two years ...until I discovered Arnold. By then, I was designing my own stuff for the stage, and was amazed at how good I had been at eyeballing portraits and discovering how to get the shape right. Then, to find gritted patterns that were historically sound, with the guess work already proved, well that was one way to think I was in heaven. Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 1:10 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Books > Robin wrote: > > I happen to keep a collection of awful costuming texts. (They're > > useful in my lectures, where I trace the origins and development of > > costuming myths.) If anyone has a Bad Costume Book they are planning > > on dumping, please check with me first -- if I don't have it, I'd be > > delighted to add it to my collection. >>>> > > Kass wrote: > I do too! I use > > them in my beginners' class on research. I call it "Good source. Bad > > source." =) > > Yep. I have a shelf which is nearly hidden where I keep all of them > so that the people who come to visit my library don't think it's a > good book because I have it. > > Kat > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 16:09:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OK9JIO007711 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:09:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OK8N76015180 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:08:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OK8Mgq017088; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:08:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OK8Dgq016931 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:08:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234])h8OK8DhP017771 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030924160626.00b81638@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:08:30 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Dance/russet woolens In-Reply-To: <20030924195628.33411.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Congratulations! Congratulations! Congratulations! Bridgette BTW, go for the russet. and I've almost always had good luck with Fabric.com I am _so_ happy for you. >Hello the list, > I just got my biopsy results and the cancer was >benign. Snooopy Happy Dances around room and will >probably do same for hours and days. > Now that I know I'll be around to at least >consider finishing some of my projects I need either >rust or pumpkin or mustard colored wool. Russet in >the red-brown or cinnamon shades is preferred and I >need either pant weight or crepe weight. I really >would prefer someplace that swatches so I can see how >well the samples felt. Any suggestions? > Cassandra _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 16:20:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OKKMIO007775 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:20:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKJM76016195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:19:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKJIgq028634; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:19:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law10-f9.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.9]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKJCgq028382 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:19:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:19:05 -0700 Received: from 66.237.9.226 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:19:05 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.237.9.226] X-Originating-Email: [jessicastier@hotmail.com] From: "jessica stier" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:19:05 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Sep 2003 20:19:05.0732 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A4DB440:01C382D9] Subject: [h-cost] RE: OT gossip of the royals in Denmark X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I was in Denmark when Prince Joachim married Alexandra. We went to the large cathedral in Aarhus and got to see them. Her wedding costumes were incredabley beautiful. I'm sure that Mary's will be just as wonderful to look at. It was a very fun celebration that the entire country seemed to be involved in. We don't have royalty in the US so this was a really fun thing to see in person. :) jessica > >What do you say. >Our Crownprinse Frederik finally desided to get merried. >He has chosen a girl named Mary Donaldson from (hold your seat) Tasmania. >They are going to have their wedding in May next year. > >Bjarne > > _________________________________________________________________ Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 16:31:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OKV0IO007887 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:31:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKTm76017252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:29:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKTggq010025; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:29:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav22.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.79]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKTVgq009671 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:29:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:29:25 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav22.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:29:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:30:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Sep 2003 20:29:25.0873 (UTC) FILETIME=[8BEFB610:01C382DA] Subject: [h-cost] Medieval sleeve question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi, I'm reading som Arthurian legends and books on the subject of chivalry. There is this intriguing custom of giving a sleeve as a favor to a knight so that he can bear it into battle. That's present at least in one 12th century story (I think it's 12th C) where a girl says that her sleeves are much too small and she'll need to find something bigger to give. The author of my book on chivalry says that sleeves were detachable in the 12th century. I wasn't aware of that. Now... were they detachable? If so, what style would that be? Bliauts? And if not, how would a lady give a sleeve to a knight without ripping the dress apart? How did he tie it to his equipement? Just a knot? Was it a stylized sleeve with some kind of attachment? Or is our understanding of the matter a translation problem? Thanks for any insight on this matter... Audrey _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 16:36:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OKaBIO007942 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:36:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKYn76017699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:34:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKYkgq015096; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:34:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav18.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKYhgq014963 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:34:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:34:38 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav18.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:34:38 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:30:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Sep 2003 20:34:38.0484 (UTC) FILETIME=[46445D40:01C382DB] Subject: [h-cost] Medieval sleeve question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi, I'm reading som Arthurian legends and books on the subject of chivalry. There is this intriguing custom of giving a sleeve as a favor to a knight so that he can bear it into battle. That's present at least in one 12th century story (I think it's 12th C) where a girl says that her sleeves are much too small and she'll need to find something bigger to give. The author of my book on chivalry says that sleeves were detachable in the 12th century. I wasn't aware of that. Now... were they detachable? If so, what style would that be? Bliauts? And if not, how would a lady give a sleeve to a knight without ripping the dress apart? How did he tie it to his equipement? Just a knot? Was it a stylized sleeve with some kind of attachment? Or is our understanding of the matter a translation problem? Thanks for any insight on this matter... Audrey _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 16:36:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OKaCIO007943 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:36:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKZJ76017739 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:35:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKZJgq015664; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:35:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from remt22.cluster1.charter.net (remt22.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.8.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKZFgq015514 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:35:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [24.196.247.126] (HELO dewshine) by remt22.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with SMTP id 1354675 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:35:00 -0400 Message-ID: <004101c382db$fabdd760$6401a8c0@spa.sc.charter.com> From: "Manly Summerfield" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval sleeve question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:39:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I'm reading som Arthurian legends and books on the subject of chivalry. > There is this intriguing custom of giving a sleeve as a favor to a knight so > that he can bear it into battle. That's present at least in one 12th century > story (I think it's 12th C) where a girl says that her sleeves are much too > small and she'll need to find something bigger to give. The author of my > book on chivalry says that sleeves were detachable in the 12th century. I > wasn't aware of that. Now... were they detachable? If so, what style would > that be? Bliauts? And if not, how would a lady give a sleeve to a knight > without ripping the dress apart? How did he tie it to his equipement? Just a > knot? Was it a stylized sleeve with some kind of attachment? Or is our > understanding of the matter a translation problem? > Thanks for any insight on this matter... > Audrey The way I have always understood it is, the lady in question did not actually tear off her sleeve but either removed a tippet or unpinned an oversleeve to give. I suppose in the earlier period you would be looking at a decorative oversleeve pinned at the shoulder to a gown, easily removed and then either tied to or tucked into the knights armor. I think the pieces was tied (whether sleeve or tippet) generally in a knot like a garter, or just simply tucked into the armor itself. Muirgheal _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 16:38:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OKcXIO007966 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:38:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKbc76017954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:37:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKbNgq017768; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:37:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OKbGgq017609 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:37:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f44.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.68]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A37847FEEF for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:37:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001f01c382dc$0f32cf70$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030924195628.33411.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Dance/russet woolens Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:40:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Cassandra! Congratulations to you, i am so happy for you. Keep up the good will!!! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cascio Michael" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 9:56 PM Subject: [h-cost] Happy Dance/russet woolens > Hello the list, > I just got my biopsy results and the cancer was > benign. Snooopy Happy Dances around room and will > probably do same for hours and days. > Now that I know I'll be around to at least > consider finishing some of my projects I need either > rust or pumpkin or mustard colored wool. Russet in > the red-brown or cinnamon shades is preferred and I > need either pant weight or crepe weight. I really > would prefer someplace that swatches so I can see how > well the samples felt. Any suggestions? > Cassandra > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 17:06:35 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OL6ZIO008135 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:06:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OL5g76020598 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:05:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OL5eFJ016812; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:05:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OL5XFK016672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:05:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8OLBw0q005740 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:11:58 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F720749.3040808@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:06:17 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gustaf III' s wedding suit (quick link) References: <000c01c382cb$5af95ed0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <000c01c382cb$5af95ed0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > If you want to see pictures of the actual costume i am using as pattern, go > to their website: Here's a quick link to just the image of the suit: http://www.lsh.se/livrustkammaren/Regenter/Media/14_Gustav_III/31255/31255_A.gif If you substitute B and C for the final A in the address, you ge the other two views. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. -- Noam Chomsky _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 17:29:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OLTeIO008189 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:29:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OLQg76022255 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:26:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OLQdFJ007191; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:26:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OLGRFJ027608 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:16:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200309242116.h8OLGRFJ027608@net.indra.com> Received: from mtiwebc20 (mtiwebc20.worldnet.att.net[204.127.135.59]) by mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <2003092421161911100b7f0le>; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:16:19 +0000 Received: from [63.240.155.172] by mtiwebc20; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:16:18 +0000 From: ladysarafina@att.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:16:18 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Aug 25 2003) X-Authenticated-Sender: aHN3YXNoaW5ndG9uQGF0dC5uZXQ= X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'd say that anything by Herbert Norris is pretty bad. Harlie Des Roches -- Lady Sarafina Sinclair, CW, APF http://ladysarafina.home.att.net > In a message dated 9/24/2003 2:16:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kayta@frys.com > writes: > > > My vote goes for > > Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other votes? > > > > I don't know who was responsible, but I hate....HATE...with a passion "The > Mode in Costume". Or as I like to call it, The Commode in Costume". Not only are > the redrawings of perfectly good painting dreadful, the descriptions are > hysterical! "Large bow at front." Well, I can SEE that myself! And colors from > paintings [we all probably would recognize] are inexplicatively changed in the > useless descriptions for the useless and terrible black and white drawings. > > My friend who collected vintage had an amusingly bad book on identifying > vintage clothes. I don't believe there was a single 19th century dress in the > book, but there was lots of teens stuff. Anything with a ruffle on the bottom > was > "circa 1860". As were nylon net 2 ring hoops. Pitiful! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 17:47:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OLlwIO008221 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:47:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OLlC76024113 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:47:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OLl6mc027646; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:47:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (h-66-134-203-2.SNVACAID.covad.net [66.134.203.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OLl1mc027545 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:47:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from misc.com (mac.misc.com [192.168.254.109]) by misc.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8OLrpjp015519 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:53:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3F720F28.1020000@misc.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:39:52 -0700 From: Theresa Eacker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books References: <20030924083456.467.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com To Nicole- Yes, I absolutely agree with you about the theatrical end-product. The things I made from this book turned out looking exactly like the drawings in the book; at the time I was using Holkeboer, I just hadn't realized the gap that existed between theatrical historical garments and _historical_ historical garb. Theresa Eacker N Kipar wrote: > --- Theresa Eacker wrote: > First book: Theatrical Patterns > by Holkeboer (yes, I know...UGH; group > >>cringe, everybody!!) > > > Why????? It is a LOVELY book for exactly what it says on the cover: theatrical > patterns. > I made some really nice history inspired clothes for every day wear from those > patterns. > > Nicole > > ===== > Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' > http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ > > Email: nicole@kipar.org > URL: http://www.kipar.org > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 18:10:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8OMAHIO008299 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:10:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OM9c76026125 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:09:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OM97pH021011; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:09:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8OM7LpH019077 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:07:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 307039 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:37:15 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:41:32 -0700 Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97.3e5290fc.2ca343ca@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com While I completely agree that Peacock's books aren't worth the paper they're printed on, I have to disagree about Ruth Wilcox's Mode in Costume and Mode in Hats. Granted, the faces of the people illustrated in the books look to have been drawn in the 1930's-40's when she was producing her books, and they are illustrated in b/w. However, I like very much the fact that the silhouettes and proportions are correct. Her writing is not BAD, something to be said of 30's-40's research. She offers designs and patterns of the period in each chapter and talks about colors favored during the decade she's writing about. She shows accessories and hair styles. She discusses influences of style changes. I agree, illustrations are redrawings, she describes the obvious as well as the not-so-obvious. However, I know three historic seamstresses who use this book to help their clients narrow down what years they want their costume to reproduce, what they like and dislike about the period, and the accessories the would need to be acquired to complete said outfit. Then they can move to the Early Victorian books, for example, rather than having to look through the Bustle period books too. The fact that Mode shows clothing from BC through the 1940's ('50's? - my copy went missing last year) makes it very helpful if you only have money or room for a couple of costume overview books. I would never take it as THE book to base an accurate outfit on in any given period without checking books more more specific to any certain period, but a perusal of Mode in Costume often helps me decide whether to go for 1840 or 1860, or which sort of outerwear and shoes to wear with my 1935 dress. LynnD On 9/24/03 12:00 PM, "AlbertCat@aol.com" wrote: > In a message dated 9/24/2003 2:16:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kayta@frys.com > writes: > >> My vote goes for >> Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other votes? >> > > I don't know who was responsible, but I hate....HATE...with a passion "The > Mode in Costume". Or as I like to call it, The Commode in Costume". Not only > are > the redrawings of perfectly good painting dreadful, the descriptions are > hysterical! "Large bow at front." Well, I can SEE that myself! And colors from > paintings [we all probably would recognize] are inexplicatively changed in the > useless descriptions for the useless and terrible black and white drawings. > > My friend who collected vintage had an amusingly bad book on identifying > vintage clothes. I don't believe there was a single 19th century dress in the > book, but there was lots of teens stuff. Anything with a ruffle on the bottom > was > "circa 1860". As were nylon net 2 ring hoops. Pitiful! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 19:16:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ONGnIO008491 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:16:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ONG076001358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:16:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ONFulN020111; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:15:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xmxpita.myway.com (nn1.excitenetwork.com [207.159.120.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ONFslN020045 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:15:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: by xmxpita.myway.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id CEBBB39DB; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:15:44 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com, h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Received: from [142.161.144.235] by mprdmailfe3.nwk.myway.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:15:44 EST X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 0f9d95c0c3f8d188a897fb11535784b6 From: "Wendy" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: emmajean@myway.com X-Mailer: PHP Message-Id: <20030924231544.CEBBB39DB@xmxpita.myway.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I should have elaborated...Since a large portion of Americans are overweight, are grossly overweight, some clothing manufacturers are making their "sizes" smaller. But many others are going the opposite direction. Where I work, if a woman comes in over 150 pounds, less if she has large breasts or hips, she's shopping on the plus rack; and we've made a conscious effort to provide lingerie for "larger" sizes. I have two modern made jackets that both fit me fine, one is size 5, the other size 10.Cheers,Wendywww.hecate.ca/emma/--- On Wed 09/24, Cynthia Virtue < cvirtue+dated+1079966333.f00b85@thibault.org > wrote:From: Cynthia Virtue [mailto: cvirtue+dated+1079966333.f00b85@thibault.org]To: h-costume@indra.comDate: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:33:10 -0400Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size?Hope Greeenberg wrote:>>> If Marilyn Munroe lived in today's world, she'd be>>> shopping in the plus sizes.> > Ahh Google. Gotta love it:> http://www.jess! icaseigel.com/marilyn.shtmlCool! Thanks, Hope! I wonder if the problem is not simply wishful-thinking, but a misunderstanding of the already-discussed change in dress sizes. If, say, MM was an "old size 12" which is now an 8 (or whatever) maybe people reading it don't know they need to convert.I hope she can post pictures of Marilyn in these gowns for comparison, but she would have to get permission from the photographers, which might be a bit of a fuss.-- Cynthia Virtue and/orCynthia du Pré ArgentIf we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.-- Noam Chomsky_______________________________________________h-costume mailing listh-costume@mail.indra.comhttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Introducing My Way - http://www.myway.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 19:30:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ONUPIO008593 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:30:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ONTq76002560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:29:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ONTolN029670; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:29:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ONTelO029472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:29:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8ONa50q006214 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:36:05 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F72290F.5020603@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:30:23 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: my email References: <20030924231544.CEBBB39DB@xmxpita.myway.com> In-Reply-To: <20030924231544.CEBBB39DB@xmxpita.myway.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Folks, In case you're curious, the complex look of my email address is due to a "whitelist" spamblocker email program called TMDA. It has eliminated all the obscene spam I was getting (more than 20 a day!) The special email address expires after a certain amount of time, and after that, you'd get an automatic note which lets your mail through with one click. This doesn't apply to email lists, just if you send me personal email. I mention this because whitelists are likely to get a lot more common, so now you know what it is if you see it from others. > cvirtue+dated+1079966333.f00b85@thibault.org -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Sadly, "Assault and Battery on a Language" is not a crime. -- Steffan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 19:41:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ONfcIO008630 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:41:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ONeo76003395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:40:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ONemlN007648; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:40:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9401.mail.yahoo.com (web9401.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8ONejlN007621 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:40:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030924234044.42551.qmail@web9401.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9401.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:40:44 PDT Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:40:44 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030924093622.00a2bc40@pop-server.kc.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Such beautiful work, Bjarne! (as always:) Albra Sheryl Nance-Durst wrote: You are still the master! Sheryl N-D At 11:06 AM 9/24/03 +0200, Bjarne wrote: >Hi. >Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would like to >see it! >http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm > > >Bjarne > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 20:15:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P0FAIO008722 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:15:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P0EL76005691 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:14:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P0EJLk001307; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:14:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.181]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8P0EGLk001277 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:14:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-118-230-145.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO angelap3a8d978) (cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net@67.118.230.145 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 2003 22:54:59 -0000 Message-ID: <047601c382ef$7a297dc0$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> From: "Cabbage Rose" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030924083456.467.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> <3F720F28.1020000@misc.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:59:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >From yet another theater costumer, this is a nice place to start. We often forget that we all have to begin at the beginning, and this book was a delightful introduction to lines for stage. Good to have graduated to Waugh, Hunniset & Arnold, yes, but wouldn't have gotten there if it weren't for Holkeboer. It was my first costume book. angela Angela F. Lazear Cabbage Rose Costumes http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com Theatrical Costume Design "O, what a world of vile ill-favored faults looks handsome in three hundred pounds a year!..." The Merry Wives of Windsor, III, iv - W. Shakespeare ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Eacker" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books > To Nicole- > > Yes, I absolutely agree with you about the theatrical end-product. The > things I made from this book turned out looking exactly like the > drawings in the book; at the time I was using Holkeboer, I just hadn't > realized the gap that existed between theatrical historical garments and > _historical_ historical garb. > > Theresa Eacker > > N Kipar wrote: > > --- Theresa Eacker wrote: > First book: Theatrical Patterns > > by Holkeboer (yes, I know...UGH; group > > > >>cringe, everybody!!) > > > > > > Why????? It is a LOVELY book for exactly what it says on the cover: theatrical > > patterns. > > I made some really nice history inspired clothes for every day wear from those > > patterns. > > > > Nicole > > > > ===== > > Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' > > http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ > > > > Email: nicole@kipar.org > > URL: http://www.kipar.org > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 20:17:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P0H3IO008729 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:17:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P0GI76005811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:16:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P0GILk002294; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:16:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P0GFLk002272 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:16:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLQ00GCDTRIRB@draco.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:01:29 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Dance/russet woolens In-reply-to: <20030924195628.33411.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030924170044.02f3a928@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 12:56 PM 9/24/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Hello the list, > I just got my biopsy results and the cancer was >benign. Snooopy Happy Dances around room and will >probably do same for hours and days. That is wonderful news! Congrats!!! Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 20:17:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P0HQIO008732 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:17:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P0Gd76005844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:16:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P0GcLk002470; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:16:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P0GFLm002272 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:16:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLQ00GCDTRIRB@draco.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:11:46 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question In-reply-to: <20030924155334.67051.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030924170516.00b04088@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3F7061DE.4040108@thibault.org> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 08:53 AM 9/24/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks in advance for your advice and resources!!! > >--Jen Small > >THL Gianetta Andreini da Vicenza > >(ps -- I don't have a website, but if you want to see a picture of my 1585 >Vecellio dress, click here: >http://www.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos03.cgi?cat=kayleigh and go >to the 23rd item (!) ) Hi Jen, Wow, another Small person! Cool. I don't have an answer to your question, unfortunately. Not my time period so I haven't a clue. But I wanted to share a more direct link to your photo, to verify it was yours. Sometimes I miscount... and me an accountant! http://www.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos03.cgi?cmd=view&id=PW32AS%2DElizabethanGown%2Ejpg&cat=kayleigh I very much like the dress, but would love to see what you looked in it. People so make the outfit. When I first went to the link you gave, it was showing a garment made for an SCA Duke that took six years and 40,000 pearls!! I wanted to share this link as well, because I have never seen so many pearls on a garment before. Is the creator on this list? http://www.midrealm.org/moas/constellation/Image037.htm Ok, now I am inspired again. So many lovely costumes you all are sharing. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 21:07:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P172IO008879 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:07:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P16U76008519 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:06:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P16SHr027076; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:06:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P16PHr027053 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:06:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-56-047.jps.net ([209.165.56.47] helo=pavilion) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2KaO-0003Xt-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:06:25 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c38301$afd0ab80$2f38a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001b01c381d1$120102f0$5b48ccd1@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knotwork Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:09:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Lisa, perhaps you are mistaking my desire to prevent new people from > making mistakes as annoyance with them. I assure you that nothing could > be further from the truth. Probably so. I find that either someone genuinely doesn't know something so can't be blamed, or they have another agenda altogether that I've failed to notice. I get most amused at people who get riled up because at me and decide to give some expert advice as to how to hold the baseball bat correctly when they have failed to notice that I'm actually playing cricket! I rarely bother to tell such people this either. He who laughs last, need only smile :) Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 21:11:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P1BwIO008890 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:11:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1BM76008758 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:11:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1BLHr029413; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:11:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1BJHr029396 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:11:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-56-047.jps.net ([209.165.56.47] helo=pavilion) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2Kf8-0003U7-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:11:18 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c38302$5f62f580$2f38a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:14:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Update on the Shoe of Mary Queen of Scots X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8P1BwIO008890 The response I have from Edith Cuff the CEO of the Abbey Museum follows: "the shoe was given by a lady in waiting to Queen Mary who was the direct descendant of one of Mary's ladies and was found when renovations were done to Sheffield castle. The shoe was identified by the Victoria & Albert Museum in the 1930's when the Abbey Folk Park was in London. We can't unfortunately get measurements from the shoe as it is difficult to remove it from the case where it is on display. However, should we be working on that case and the items removed we will certainly measure it and send you the details. Also several art authorities have seen it but never questioned the dating or authenticity. However, this is not to say that we would not be interested in hearing comments on it as several items that Ward collected have been recatalogued. sincerely Edith" So, that is the status. I do agree that the latching system does not look like images I have seen from shoes of the 16th century. Someone mentioned the shoe historian might give an assessment. I'm sure the museum would be most interested in another opinion. Lisa Sinervo www.Thrednedlestrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 21:12:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P1COIO008893 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:12:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1Bq76008798 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:11:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1BpHr029752; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:11:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1BlHs029693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:11:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8P1C3N2026172 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:12:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8P1C3bq026170 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:12:03 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT gossip of the royals in Denmark Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:12:02 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <002601c382ba$257728c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <002601c382ba$257728c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309242112.02902.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Wednesday 24 September 2003 12:37 pm, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > What do you say. > Our Crownprinse Frederik finally desided to get merried. > He has chosen a girl named Mary Donaldson from (hold your seat) Tasmania. > They are going to have their wedding in May next year. Oh, my. Has the speculation about the design of the bride's gown started yet? :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 21:21:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P1LKIO008933 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:21:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1KZ76009209 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:20:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1KTHr003743; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:20:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1KRHs003717 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8P1KkN2026223 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:20:46 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8P1KkBO026221 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:20:46 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:20:45 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309242120.45611.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 23 September 2003 10:10 pm, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > >I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in > >person. > > > >I wouldn't buy it unless you have a collection of awful costuming texts. > > So what's the worst historical costume book ever printed? My vote goes for > Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other > votes? This *would* be an easier one, if there weren't so many choices.... I don't share the near-universal hatred of Peacock. I know about his misdrawings, and I wouldn't give one of his books to anyone with no understanding/knowledge of costume history, but if you have a solid background they make a nice casual reference, to be checked against more authoritative works if historic recreation is your objective. (In fact, I always assumed that he simply can't draw well, and that he likely compounded the problem by doing the sketches for his books quickly.) So, what do I think is the worst historical costume book? Of the ones I've seen, I think I have to vote for Dion Caltrop's "English Costume". No sources for anything, and chock-full of pretty colored drawings that convey almost no information about cut or materials of the costumes depicted (and often get wrong the information they do convey). -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 21:21:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P1LuIO008936 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:21:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1LJ76009248 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:21:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1LIHr004063; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:21:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1LFHs004041 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:21:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8P1LYN2026238 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:21:34 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8P1LYwS026236 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:21:34 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Dance/russet woolens Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:21:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030924195628.33411.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030924195628.33411.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309242121.33838.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Wednesday 24 September 2003 03:56 pm, Cascio Michael wrote: > Hello the list, > I just got my biopsy results and the cancer was > benign. Snooopy Happy Dances around room and will > probably do same for hours and days. Congratulations! . -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 21:23:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P1NHIO008939 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:23:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1Mk76009322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:22:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1MkHr004733; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:22:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1MhHs004704 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:22:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8P1N2N2026253 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:23:02 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8P1N2Zv026251 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:23:02 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 1st and last books Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:23:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309242123.01901.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Wednesday 24 September 2003 09:54 am, Catherine Kinsey wrote: > > First book: Theatrical Patterns by Holkeboer (yes, I know...UGH; > > group > > > cringe, everybody!!) > > Hey, it's better than Norris, Iris Brooks, Hill & Buchnell or others > that supposedly have patterns (which don't hang like the ones they > are supposed to look like). It may be theatrical but it's better than > so many of the others that until you learn something about how they > were actually made (since there aren't too many really good books on > the market which do more than work on supposition). At least with Holkeboer's patterns you can get the shapes of costume approximately right. ... -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 21:51:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P1pYIO009053 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:51:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1oj76010684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:50:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1oiHr018890; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:50:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P1ogHr018877 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:50:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05370 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:13:00 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:13:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval sleeve question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: > I'm reading som Arthurian legends and books on the subject of > chivalry. There is this intriguing custom of giving a sleeve as a > favor to a knight so that he can bear it into battle. That's present > at least in one 12th century story (I think it's 12th C) where a girl > says that her sleeves are much too small and she'll need to find > something bigger to give. The author of my book on chivalry says that > sleeves were detachable in the 12th century. I wasn't aware of that. > Now... were they detachable? If so, what style would that be? Bliauts? > And if not, how would a lady give a sleeve to a knight without ripping > the dress apart? How did he tie it to his equipement? Just a knot? Was > it a stylized sleeve with some kind of attachment? Or is our > understanding of the matter a translation problem? The thought of detachable sleeves in the 12th century set all my alarms ringing ... I haven't seen any other sign of such, and I wondered immediately as you did -- was it a special "stylized" item, not part of real dress? A translation problem? So I passed the question on to Monica Wright, who specializes in costume references in French literature of this period. Here's what she said: <> So it sounds as though these "sleeves" were made specifically as favors. Later scholars incorrectly assumed that they must have been real parts of clothing that were detachable ... an easy error on the part of literature scholars who might have seen, say, Italian Renaissance art that showed detachable sleeves and assumed the same was done in 12th C. France. I wonder if the heraldic charge of the "maunche" dates from about this time -- it looks like a disembodied 12th c. sleeve, but not like anything that might have been worn in the 13th and 14th c., so perhaps was fossilized as an image based on the "sleeve favors" of the 12th c. Manly Summerfield added: > The way I have always understood it is, the lady in question did not > actually tear off her sleeve but either removed a tippet or unpinned > an oversleeve to give. I suppose in the earlier period you would be > looking at a decorative oversleeve pinned at the shoulder to a gown, > easily removed and then either tied to or tucked into the knights > armor. I think the pieces was tied (whether sleeve or tippet) > generally in a knot like a garter, or just simply tucked into the > armor itself. To clarify: Tippets didn't show up till about two centuries after the story in question, and detachable sleeves appeared in Western Europe even later. Also, there's no evidence to indicate that tippets were ever detachable, and substantial reason to think they were not. But that's another topic, and one I've blathered on about before on this list, having given a paper about it quite some years ago (and yes, I'm hoping to get that one revised and published in the next couple of years!). --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 22:10:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P2ANIO009115 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:10:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P29a76011755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:09:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P29ZSD027410; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:09:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav9.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.113]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P29VSD027335 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:09:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:09:26 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav9.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:09:25 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030924083456.467.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com><3F720F28.1020000@misc.com> <047601c382ef$7a297dc0$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:11:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2003 02:09:26.0138 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B711DA0:01C3830A] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cabbage Rose" > Good to have graduated to > Waugh, Hunniset & Arnold, yes, but wouldn't have gotten there if it weren't > for Holkeboer. It was my first costume book. Yes, if I think of it this way, I wouldn't have gotten there if... well.. no... actually, Peacock didn't help me start costuming. I was already interested in the subject before I "met" him. Starting costuming, as in building things, was Kass' doing :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 22:15:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P2FtIO009137 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:15:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2FC76012016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:15:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2FASD029941; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:15:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2F6SD029909 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:15:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05472 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:37:27 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:37:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question In-Reply-To: <20030924155334.67051.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Jen Small wrote: > ... I would like to make 14th-century cotehardies for my husband and > myself (you know, after they get tight-fitting with lots of buttons). > I want to do surface decoration on them, but don't know a lot about > what is appropriate. > > So my question is -- what kind of surface decoration is period for > this garment? Very little if any, if we're to go by illustrations, which suggest that unembellished gowns were the norm, though fancy fabrics (including brocades with all-over woven designs) were one option to create surface interest. A lot of people assume there's also all-over embroidery; I'm more inclined to read images as woven patterns unless there's some reason to think otherwise. Written accounts suggest more variation. "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince," a very useful reference for this period, includes at least one reference to copious use of pearls and some references to embroidery, IIRC. I've forgotten the details and don't have time to go hunting for them now, so before I'd say "use pearls," I'd suggest you get the book and read through it. Be alert to whether the pearls and embroideries are specified as being for body garments, or whether they're more likely to have referred to hoods or other accessories. And watch to make sure they weren't something that only royalty or exceedingly high nobility would have done. It may be that these uses were recorded precisely because they were unusual. > I have seen some illuminations with the women's cotehardies with > horizontal bands of embroidery or trim spaced regularly down the body. Sounds like you're referring to some images in the Belles Heures and/or Tres Riches Heures. I would NOT suggest you rely on these. The artists here used stripes and certain other types of embellishment as part of their iconographic code -- e.g. to identify foreigners or historical figures. Bands/stripes also have been associated in certain eras with prostitutes or wanton women, or with entertainers. In general, you need to look at a large number of images from a specific period or place and see whether a particular type of embellishment occurs only on certain types of symbolic/historical figures, or whether it also appears on "normal" or "real" individuals. Identifying these sorts of codes can take many years of familiarity with the art, which can be unreasonable to ask of you at this stage, so I'll add that I don't think you'll find those "bands" on any realistic figures for the later 14th c. and early 15th c., at least not in England/France/Flanders. You see more surface variation in Italy, and I refuse to speculate about Spain and Germany, whose fashions can be highly divergent in details and are beyond my scope. There are plenty of embroideries extant from the 14th c., but these are mostly ecclesiastical vestments, church furnishings, or home furnishings, to my knowledge. Still, someone on one of the needlework lists might have a clue to extant clothing embroidery ... though that would be a neat trick given that we don't have any extant body garments of this style apart from a couple of men's pourpoints/cotes, which to my knowledge are made of very fancy silks but are not embroidered -- anyone have a better lead? > What I would really like to do is something at the neckline and cuffs > of both mine and his. I have some beautiful cord for couching and > some baltic amber that looks kickin' with it, but am uncertain as to > what I can "get away with". Sadly, I can no longer bring myself to do > something that is undocumentable!!! You might use that amber for a necklace, or decoration on a pouch or belt. I'll be interested whether anyone has any solid evidence of embellishments for body garments in this period. I get asked about this a lot, but my interest generally shuts off after the construction stage of the body garments, so I've neglected the embellishment. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 22:25:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P2PiIO009175 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:25:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2Or76012536 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:24:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2OpSD004297; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:24:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav14.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.118]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2OnSD004211 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:24:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:24:44 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav14.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:24:44 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval sleeve question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:26:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2003 02:24:44.0436 (UTC) FILETIME=[2ECA4540:01C3830C] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Ah... thanks Robin! > So I passed the question on to Monica Wright, who specializes in costume > references in French literature of this period. Here's what she said: > < Graal, ou Perceval. It's in an episode called the Damsel of the Little > Sleeves (la Demoiselle aux petites manches). Giving a sleeve to a knight > is customary in this period, but there is no indication that the sleeves > were worn (i.e. laced on). It seems, rather, that they are ceremonial in > nature, to be given out. In that scene, her father cuts a sleeve for her > out of his own samite clothes to give to Gawain, so clearly, she never > wore it. It is a perplexing problem, though.>> What unsettled me was the girl complaining that her own sleeves were much too small to give out. This had me thinking that she would be trying to give him a sleeve from one of her own existing dresses, because if she didn't, then she could have it cut to any size she wanted... > So it sounds as though these "sleeves" were made specifically as favors. > Later scholars incorrectly assumed that they must have been real parts of > clothing that were detachable ... an easy error on the part of literature > scholars who might have seen, say, Italian Renaissance art that showed > detachable sleeves and assumed the same was done in 12th C. France. That's what I think must have happened. There were detachable sleeves a little later on, and especially detachable oversleeves, but I've never seen any in 12th C France. > Manly Summerfield added: > > I suppose in the earlier period you would be > > looking at a decorative oversleeve pinned at the shoulder to a gown, > > easily removed and then either tied to or tucked into the knights > > armor. If that was the case, then it would have been worn as a decoration only, and only for the tournament, because we don't know about the existence of any kind of functional oversleeve at that time. It would have been "tournament costume", but then, why wouldn't we see similar things on manuscripts? Even on later manuscripts, where we see so many ladies looking at knights jousting? Anyway, thanks for comforting me in my opininon that the author of the book I was reading didn't know what he was talking about ;-) He must have copied from someone else, or he had only a vague idea of costume and got his eras mixed up... or he just assumed :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 22:35:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P2ZZIO009197 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:35:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2XV76013071 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:33:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2XUSD008460; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:33:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2XSSD008434 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:33:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2Lwe-0004P6-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:33:28 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:33:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c3830d$6727a210$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8P2XSSD008434 Subject: [h-cost] FW: Busk Images-more information X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I have not been able to read all the responses regarding this issue, but thought I would forward this information.....I guess poor Norris is being blamed for something he may have had little to do with. BTW, I have not had the time to do any research myself, but appreciate this information. Sg -----Original Message----- From: Information [mailto:info@grannd.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 6:44 AM To: Saragrace T. Knauf Subject: RE: Busk Images Hello, As far as we know, the only true busk is the straight one which is why we give it a date distance for usability (although this is still an approximate timeline and we encourage those who want complete accuracy to research the subject thoroughly). The "tapered" busk was created first due to customer requests by those doing renaissance fairs and theatrical interpretations. This became a quick and dirty way to give the proper look for a bodice without necessitating a full, proper corset, since those originally using it had a pocket on the inside of their bodices. For those actually making a renaissance/Tudor time period correct corset, the patterns do not give an option for a busk in the front, or if they do it is for a straight wood busk. The other use for the tapered busk is for "look" and decoration. We have requests and do custom wood burning of names, dates, and short poems and the busks are then presented as mementos to ladies. We have noticed that several other online vendors have started carrying items after we've had them custom created such as tinted grommets and washers, wood busks etc. We don't know if other vendors note these items as "period reproductions", however we do not wish to make that claim. Hope this helps in some way explain the busks. If you would like to research the subject further, we can recommend some books depending upon the time period. Best regards, Grannd Companies > -----Original Message----- > From: Saragrace T. Knauf [mailto:saragrace@earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 5:19 PM > To: info@grannd.com > Subject: RE: Busk Images > > > Thank you very much. BTW, do you know why there are two shapes? > Does this > differentiate the Tudor/Elizabethan from the other type? > > Saragrace > > -----Original Message----- > From: Information [mailto:info@grannd.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 9:11 AM > To: saragrace@earthlink.net > Subject: Busk Images > > Hello, > > Since you are not the first to ask, we finally did a scan of a few busks. > They are located at: > > http://www.grannd.com/images/wood_straight_busk.jpg and > http://www.grannd.com/images/wood_taper_busk.jpg > > and will be linked to their items soon. > > Best regards, > > Grannd Companies > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: saragrace@earthlink.net [mailto:saragrace@earthlink.net] > > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 4:14 PM > > To: info@grannd.com > > Subject: Question > > > > > > Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by > > (saragrace@earthlink.net) on Monday, September 22, 2003 at 13:13:51 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --------- > > > > Name: Saragrace Knauf > > > > questions: Are there pictures available somewhere of the ash wood > > busks appropriate for the Elizabethan and Tudor Corsets? I don't > > see any links from the product numbers. > > > > Thanks > > > > Sg > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --------- > > > > HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT > > 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705) > > REMOTE_ADDR: 24.221.40.235 > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 22:36:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P2aZIO009209 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:36:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2Zx76013222 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:35:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2ZwSD009467; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:35:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.188]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8P2ZuSD009454 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:35:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-118-230-145.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO angelap3a8d978) (angelalazear@sbcglobal.net@67.118.230.145 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 2003 23:01:07 -0000 Message-ID: <049801c382f0$55e3a4d0$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> From: "Angela F. Lazear" To: Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:05:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] Italian Renn project X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I've just been contacted by a representative for the owner of a major airlines. He wants to throw a party in Florida in gorgeous elaborate Italian Rennaisance. He plans to invite 400 guests. They'll pay through the nose, but I can't make 400 gowns in two months. Anyone got any ideas? I'd hate to flat turn them down, but I'd be way over my head. Does anyone but me have a hefty stock they'd rent for $500 per outfit? If we all got together and coordinated, we might be able to help them, but I don't know what condition things would be returned. They'd also pay about $2500 per gown / outfit for construction for the guests. The date is first week November. angela +++++ Angela F. Lazear Cabbage Rose Costumes http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com Theatrical Costume Design "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none: be able for thine enemy rather in power than use, and keep thy friend under thy own life's key: be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..." W. Shakespeare _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 22:36:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P2atIO009218 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:36:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2aL76013261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:36:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2aLSD009624; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:36:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2aDSD009571 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:36:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2LzI-0000j2-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:36:12 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished-your watercolours Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:36:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c3830d$c944f920$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <000701c3827b$34e2e860$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8P2aDSD009571 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Bjarne, I just love your embroidery, but I also just love your watercolours. I hope you are saving them all. Someday, someone will discover them and put them in an archive in a museum or library and someone else will discover them and write a book about you. Maybe I should just do it for them? :) -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 2:07 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] embroidered stomacher is finished Hi. Yesterday evening i finished the stomacher, and i think you would like to see it! http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/helmspatterns.htm Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 22:56:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P2uAIO009428 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:56:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2tZ76014288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:55:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2tYY5018432; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:55:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P2tVY5018410 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:55:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-41-085.jps.net ([209.165.41.85] helo=pavilion) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2MHy-0001fS-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:55:30 -0700 Message-ID: <001201c38310$ede79b40$5529a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <049801c382f0$55e3a4d0$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:58:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wow, what a problem. Didn't the Renaissance Italians have a fascination with Aristotle and all things classical and Greek? Perhaps it could be a Italian Renaissance costume party celebrating the classic period. Then you could have some easier costumes to construct as well as come Renaissance ones. Just a suggestion. Lisa Sinervo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela F. Lazear" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 4:05 PM Subject: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > I've just been contacted by a representative for the owner of a major > airlines. He wants to throw a party in Florida in gorgeous elaborate Italian > Rennaisance. He plans to invite 400 guests. > > They'll pay through the nose, but I can't make 400 gowns in two months. > Anyone got any ideas? I'd hate to flat turn them down, but I'd be way over > my head. Does anyone but me have a hefty stock they'd rent for $500 per > outfit? If we all got together and coordinated, we might be able to help > them, but I don't know what condition things would be returned. They'd also > pay about $2500 per gown / outfit for construction for the guests. The date > is first week November. > > angela > +++++ > Angela F. Lazear > Cabbage Rose Costumes > http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com > Theatrical Costume Design > > "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none: > be able for thine enemy rather in power than use, > and keep thy friend under thy own life's key: > be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..." > W. Shakespeare > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Sep 24 23:07:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P37KIO009459 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:07:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P36i76014851 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:06:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P36hY5023401; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:06:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P36cY6023311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:06:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8P3D30q007248 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:13:03 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F725BE9.7070005@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:07:21 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Robin Netherton wrote: >>... I would like to make 14th-century cotehardies for my husband and > I'll be interested whether anyone has any solid evidence of embellishments > for body garments in this period. The only help I can be is this scanned picture from Kohler, but I don't know if it's really outerwear, annotated: 1300s surplice, French. National Museum, Munich. Note band of trim across chest, shoulders, and vertical in center. Godets at side reinforced (?) with embroidered patches that match cuffs. From Kohler, who notes that it is of "white linen, braided with blue and red." It's scanned on my Extant page: http://www.virtue.to/articles/extant.html Enlargement: http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/1300s_real_surplice.jpg -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Sadly, "Assault and Battery on a Language" is not a crime. -- Steffan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 00:19:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P4JUIO010019 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:19:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4In76018978 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:18:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4IlNo027435; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:18:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4IiNo027414 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:18:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2NaW-000624-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:18:44 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval sleeve question Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:18:43 -0700 Message-ID: <001b01c3831c$1c0ddf60$6501a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com So are the stories really 12th century or are they passed down from the 'real' time period that Arthur 'really' existed (~5th century from what I remember). Does this make how it was done any different? I can imagine something becoming stylized or given symbolically a long time after it was done 'for real'....... I don't remember when the stories went from the oral tradition to actually being written down. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 00:22:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P4M9IO010026 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:22:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4La76019271 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:21:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4LZNo028877; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:21:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4LVNo028828 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:21:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-67.74.247.142.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([67.74.247.142] helo=4gxif) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2NdD-0001sY-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:21:31 -0400 Message-ID: <01fb01c3831c$7401bde0$8ef74a43@4gxif> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:21:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com You need to get your hands on a copy of "Textiles and Clothing" (full publication details below); much of the information you want is in there. In the section on sewing techniques and tailoring, there is much evidence of the sleeve and neck openings being trimmed with a card-woven cording which is actually woven directly onto the garment as an edge- finishing technique. Until you learn how to do this yourself, you could approximate it by couching the cord you mentioned you had right onto the edge of the neck and sleeves. Some of the other edge finishes are simple straight, diagonal, and overcast stitches, sometimes in contrasting colors to the garments; ditto the button-holes. Narrow tapes and cords are also used, made either on small looms or by finger-looping. The section on silk textiles includes many woven patterns and the section on woolen textiles includes lots of interesting twill patterns, as well as striped, plaid and checked cloth. So there appears to be surface decoration, but it is woven in, not applied. I think you'll enjoy the book. (And the others in the series.) -Aidan Textiles and Clothing, C.1150-C.1450: Medieval Finds from Excavations in London, by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay Staniland ISBN: 0851158404 From Boydell & Brewer, Ltd, Woodbridge, UK, 2001 Currently available from Barnes and Noble for $36.00 US _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 00:24:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P4OuIO010036 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:24:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4OV76020010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:24:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4OUNo001167; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:24:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4ORNo001124 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:24:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8P4OQFp017391 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.197.209] (tnt-1-273.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.197.209])h8P4OAJc017054 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F71AB26.20206@thibault.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923162654.038d2008@mail.earthlink.net> <3F71A807.5080606@uvm.edu> <3F71AB26.20206@thibault.org> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:37:53 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 10:33 AM -0400 9/24/03, Cynthia Virtue wrote: >Hope Greeenberg wrote: >>>>If Marilyn Munroe lived in today's world, she'd be >>>>shopping in the plus sizes. >> >>Ahh Google. Gotta love it: >>http://www.jessicaseigel.com/marilyn.shtml > >Cool! Thanks, Hope! I wonder if the problem is not simply >wishful-thinking, but a misunderstanding of the already-discussed >change in dress sizes. If, say, MM was an "old size 12" which is >now an 8 (or whatever) maybe people reading it don't know they need >to convert. > >I hope she can post pictures of Marilyn in these gowns for >comparison, but she would have to get permission from the >photographers, which might be a bit of a fuss. I've always felt it would be very educational to put together "statistics" on women across the centuries considered by their contemporaries to be the essence of feminine beauty. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 01:13:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P5DnIO010202 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:13:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5Co76026249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:12:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5Co5F028331; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:12:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5Cl5F028308 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:12:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06367 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:35:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:35:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project In-Reply-To: <049801c382f0$55e3a4d0$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Angela F. Lazear wrote: > They'd also pay about $2500 per gown / outfit for construction for the > guests. Yow, I wish I had an Italian Renn costume to sell you. For that, I'd be able to make plenty of replacements. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 01:21:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P5LtIO010231 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:21:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4hv76024098 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:43:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4htNo015760; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:43:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P4hqNo015740 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:43:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06182 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:06:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:06:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question In-Reply-To: <01fb01c3831c$7401bde0$8ef74a43@4gxif> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Helen Pinto wrote: > You need to get your hands on a copy of "Textiles and Clothing" (full > publication details below); much of the information you want is in there. > In the section on sewing techniques and tailoring, there is much evidence > of the sleeve and neck openings being trimmed with a card-woven > cording which is actually woven directly onto the garment as an edge- > finishing technique. Until you learn how to do this yourself, you could > approximate it by couching the cord you mentioned you had right onto > the edge of the neck and sleeves. FWIW, I think of this as functional more than decorative. It's not showy at all. > Some of the other edge finishes are simple straight, diagonal, and > overcast stitches, sometimes in contrasting colors to the garments; > ditto the button-holes. Narrow tapes and cords are also used, made > either on small looms or by finger-looping. The section on silk > textiles includes many woven patterns and the section on woolen > textiles includes lots of interesting twill patterns, as well as > striped, plaid and checked cloth. So there appears to be surface > decoration, but it is woven in, not applied. And be very careful to consider scale -- some of the stripe patterns are small enough to produce a very muted blended look, IIRC. What's frustrating about so many of these fragments is we have no idea what most of the fabrics were used for -- what types of garments or other items (there were many uses for fabric besides garments) and for what sex and class level. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 01:24:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P5OlIO010247 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:24:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5Mv76026983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:22:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5Mv5F002590; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:22:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5Mf5F002496 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:22:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8P5MeFp029532 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.197.209] (tnt-1-273.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.197.209])h8P5MaJW029486 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F725BE9.7070005@thibault.org> References: <3F725BE9.7070005@thibault.org> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:59:39 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 11:07 PM -0400 9/24/03, Cynthia Virtue wrote: >Robin Netherton wrote: >>>... I would like to make 14th-century cotehardies for my husband and > >>I'll be interested whether anyone has any solid evidence of embellishments >>for body garments in this period. > >The only help I can be is this scanned picture from Kohler, but I >don't know if it's really outerwear, annotated: > >1300s surplice, French. National Museum, Munich. >Note band of trim across chest, shoulders, and vertical in center. >Godets at side reinforced (?) with embroidered patches that match >cuffs. >From Kohler, who notes that it is of "white linen, braided with blue and red." > >It's scanned on my Extant page: http://www.virtue.to/articles/extant.html >Enlargement: http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/1300s_real_surplice.jpg I'm not sure how well it translates to secular styles though. By this point, the style of ecclesiastical garments like this type seems to have diverged significantly from secular fashions (whereas a couple centuries earlier they seem to have still been fairly close). The cut of this garment (to the extent that it can be seen from the photo) is extremely similar to that of several other linen albs from a similar period from all over Europe, although I can't recall that any of the others have similar bands of trim on the body. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 01:28:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P5S2IO010265 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:28:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5MX76026937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:22:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5MU5F002423; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:22:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5MR5F002407 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:22:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.mn.rr.com (CPE-65-29-26-4.mn.rr.com [65.29.26.4]) h8P5MPbq024473 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:22:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20030922231235.03364dc0@pop-server.mn.rr.com> X-Sender: dannw@pop-server.mn.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:26:39 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg Subject: 16th century shoes was RE: [h-cost] da Vinci shoe article - NYTimes In-Reply-To: <001001c38039$c1a36cf0$856453d8@Kass> References: <3F6D02B5.3020102@grics.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 08:13 AM 9/21/2003 -0400, you wrote: >I'm wondering if this writer even knew about pattens, clogs etc. Anyone > >know when the high heels with the *toe on the ground* came in? > >>>> >Hi Edwina. > >I can tell you that there is an extant shoe from the 1650s or 60s in the >V&A and it has a raised heel. It's built like a modern mule: vamp, >sole, no back. There is a heel that is higher than the toe, but I doubt >if it is more than 2" high. > >I don't know if there are any extant 16th century shoes. Anyone? > >Kass Hi Kass, Yes, I've seen a number of them in the Bata Shoe Museum. I know in another post someone posted the link for it and said there weren't any 16th century - there were two on that page, one is one of a pair of gold silk velvet Venetian chopines. They have silk & metal bobbin lace on them and a tassel under the toe. They are absolutely glorious! (They look just like the blue on here http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~ebernhar/) Although the webpage currently dates them at 1600, when I was there they had them dated slightly earlier IIRC. They have a number of 16th century shoes in their collections, I would say probably half of them are mules. A couple of them have what appears to be a wedge like heel (slightly lower in front) but the neat thing is, instead of a regular rounded heel, it had a lozenge or diamond shape heel, oriented in a cross-like position. /\ / \ / \ \ / \ / \ / | | / \ Like this only wider (more like a square that was rotated on its corner). Does that help? There was even a tiny mule with pinked toe area that was only about 4 inches long. Cheers, Danielle _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 01:30:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P5UlIO010288 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:30:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5As76026009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:10:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5Aq5F027522; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:10:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5An5F027506 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:10:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA06349 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:33:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:33:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval sleeve question In-Reply-To: <001b01c3831c$1c0ddf60$6501a8c0@SG01> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > So are the stories really 12th century or are they passed down from > the 'real' time period that Arthur 'really' existed (~5th century from > what I remember). Does this make how it was done any different? I > can imagine something becoming stylized or given symbolically a long > time after it was done 'for real'....... > > I don't remember when the stories went from the oral tradition to > actually being written down. I'm not an Arthurian expert and I'll probably put my foot into it here, but my understanding is that there are many literary traditions from different cultures and time periods expounding on the "Arthur" myth. The stories written in the 12th century are likely to have only sketchy plot connections to earlier Arthur stories, if that; they form a literary tradition of their own, and are not written-down versions of long-retold tales in a continuous tradition the way, say, "Beowulf" might have been. France, Germany, and England each had their own "take" on the set of Arthurian characters, with completely different stories or highly different angles on some of the basic plotlines and characters. Think about how today's "Smallville" series might compare to the original 1930s Superman -- the same premise for the central character and some of the same general details, but with new plots, new personalities, and set in modern-day America, without much worry about whether the current series is consistent with the standards set by the original comic. OK, I've pulled out a reference book to clean that up a bit. My reader's encyclopedia says the earliest extant written references to Arthur are found in 6th c. Welsh literature; he crops up periodically in other works over the centuries, including the Mabinogion. A 12th c. historian named William of Malmesbury mentioned Arthur in a chronicle around 1120, and Geoffrey of Monmouth went to town with him in 1137, presenting him as a hero-king figure and introducing such characters as Uther Pendragon and tying in other vague figures of Welsh legend such as Merlin and Guinevere to create an elaborate story. Wace, a Norman poet, turned this story into a verse chronicle called the Roman de Brut, in which the Round Table was introduced. Chretien de Troyes unified the existing Arthurian materials into a new narrative form and wrote original tales about many of the individual characters, such as Lancelot. Meanwhile the English priest Layamon also built on Wace's Brut, writing an English Arthurian legend of his own. The Germans picked up the theme in the 13th century. The developments continue through the 14th c. with such new works as Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and the Alliterative Morte d'Arthur, and Malory comes along in the 15th c. with Le Morte d'Arthur, which brought together and reworked many of the earlier stories. (Above all paraphrased from Benet's Reader's Encyclopedia. I'm sure this is way too simplified ... Arthuriana is a huge field for literary scholars.) I think it's safe to say that no material detail of the 12th c. Arthurian stories would have any connection to anything described in the 6th century. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 01:48:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P5lxIO010343 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:48:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5kx76028101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:46:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5kw5F011553; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:46:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5kt5F011520 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:46:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a22.in-tch.com [66.62.107.2]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8P5QTb26497 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:26:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F7281D4.8E946940@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:49:08 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Missing in Action References: <016101c38215$8be87fa0$0400a8c0@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hey, Penny, so glad to hear you're okay! Even if very frazzled. Take care of yourself, and your loved ones, and we'll all have any extra year to make *really* spiffy outfits for the 2004 Costume Ball. I have a really horrible idea for an Elizabethan.... --sue Penny Ladnier wrote: > > I like Bjarne have been missing in action too. We've been living a > nightmare from the past couple of months. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 02:07:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P67JIO012983 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:07:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P66476028828 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:06:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P662vM018678; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:06:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P660vM018668 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:06:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host-66-81-243-84.rev.o1.com ([66.81.243.84]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2PGJ-0005nL-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:06:00 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006e01c381ff$ec950aa0$5b48ccd1@Kass> References: <006e01c381ff$ec950aa0$5b48ccd1@Kass> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:25:47 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: [h-cost] Re: Average human size? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 2:24 PM -0400 9/23/03, Kass McGann wrote: > >The pattern and garment industries don't base their sizes on runway >models. They base their sizes on a statistical norm of the population. >Recently that norm has been revised in because we Americans are... um... >"collectively changing shape" shall we say. Hmm. Then why are so many women one or more "sizes" bigger on the bottom than on the top? I heard somewhere years ago (no idea from what source, additional weasel-words to taste) that something like 70% of U.S. women had this particular mismatch. If the companies were actually using a statistical sample, I'd think that their ideas on what size "top" belongs with what size "bottom" would be more in line with the population. Perhaps I notice it more because I'm among the decidedly pear-shaped, but hardly anyone seems to make clothing for women with HIPS. -- _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 02:11:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P6B1IO014510 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:11:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5tl76028422 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:55:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5tkvM014744; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:55:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P5tjvM014734 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:55:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip198.125-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.125.198]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B89F6A786 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:51:31 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:53:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Message-ID: <3F722073.27506.2A3DA3F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> References: <000301c3823f$cec62af0$ae6453d8@Kass> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > So what's the worst historical costume book ever printed? My vote > goes for Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. > Any other votes? I think that you hit the nail on the head with this one. Badly proportioned and wildly inaccurate in terms of waistlines and the like. But coming up quickly are R.Turner Wilcox's Mode (in Costume, Shoes, etc ad nauseum) and Iris Brooks. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 02:19:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P6J7IO017881 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:19:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P6IY76029332 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:18:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P6IVvM023470; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:18:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8P6ISvM023455 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:18:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-67.72.135.245.dial1.sandiego1.level3.net (HELO sbcglobal.net) (lady?m?de?j%sbcglobal.net@67.72.135.245 with plain) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Sep 2003 06:18:28 -0000 Message-ID: <3F7288B4.8060902@sbcglobal.net> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:18:28 -0700 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-CA; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-ca, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re:[h-cost] Update on the Shoe of Mary Queen of Scots References: <200309250236.h8P2a6SE009527@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Okay, maybe they have the wrong Queen Mary? Maybe it's Queen Mary II (as in William and Mary), who was a queen of Scotland (as well as England). It's the right shape for the end of her life.... I finally bothered to identify the 'flea in me ear' that's been bugging me through this whole discussion. Just a thought. Maura _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 04:20:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P8JvIO029544 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:19:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P8JI76003710 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:19:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P8HuSG008566; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:17:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P8HrSG008525 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:17:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id h8P8IYA01943.; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:18:36 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:17:49 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.0 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:17:36 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gustaf III' s wedding suit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8P8HrSG008525 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> drewscph@post12.tele.dk 09/24/03 07:40pm >>> >If you want to see pictures of the actual costume i am using as pattern, go >to their website:http://www.lsh.se/livrustkammaren/ >It only works with the swedish text. >Scroll down on the menubar on the left side >A menu is called "Se samlingarna" >Click that. >On top of the site there is a link called Regentlängd. Click that then you >get a whole timeline. I was interested to look at the items from some of the other reigns, such as the bodice worn by Queen Kristina as a baby and the buffcoat and bloodstained shirt worn by her father Gustav Adolf when he was killed. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 05:20:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P9KFIO016450 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:20:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P9HJ76006163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 03:17:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P9HI9t013717; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 03:17:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta8-svc.business.ntl.com (mta8-svc.business.ntl.com [62.253.164.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P9HD9t013456 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 03:17:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Imedia5043 ([80.1.1.82]) by mta8-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with SMTP id <20030925091712.ZJYX29034.mta8-svc.business.ntl.com@Imedia5043> for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:17:12 +0100 Message-ID: <006601c38345$c9e47300$52010150@Imedia5043> From: "Dawn Wood" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net><4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> <200309242120.45611.cathy@thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:17:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com do bear in mind when complaining about the Peacock book that it was written in the seventies which accounts for the fashion drawing style by a costume designer not a historian for the same market and there wasn't much around then reference wise for grown ups. I worked with John on several accessions and he was the first to admit it wasn't the best book but what was wanted at the time. I don't own it btw for just those reasons I think we can say the same about many of the other 'bad ones around today. The kohler book for instance is useful because many garments in there don't survive any more. Cassin's osprey nelsons navy book is also rather useful using it atm My first book which got me hooked when I was 7 from the local library was a costume timeline book which I still adore. if only for nostalgia reasons My last a 1911 tailoring magazine for the chauffeurs uniform pattern draft as I kept getting enquiries for one. There have been rather a lot in between and still not enough but thankfully they are tax deductible Dawn Ages Of Elegance makers of historical clothing, uniforms and bridalwear http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6717 > > >I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in > > >person. > > Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other > > votes? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 05:28:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8P9SBIO016466 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:28:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P9P376006433 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 03:25:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8P9P29t028436; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 03:25:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web41504.mail.yahoo.com (web41504.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.87]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8P9Ow9t028377 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 03:24:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030925092453.25781.qmail@web41504.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.66.208.11] by web41504.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:24:53 BST Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:24:53 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?N=20Kipar?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F720F28.1020000@misc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --- Theresa Eacker wrote: > To Nicole- > > Yes, I absolutely agree with you about the theatrical end-product. The > things I made from this book turned out looking exactly like the > drawings in the book; at the time I was using Holkeboer, I just hadn't > realized the gap that existed between theatrical historical garments and > _historical_ historical garb. > > Theresa Eacker Yep, and I'd just like to say very loudly here that Holkeboer did NOT call her book 'historical patterns' or 'historically correct/authentic patterns' :-))) I love her design suggestions, did some nice stencils and embroidery designs with those. For al sorts of things *G* Nicole ===== Cap'n Cat of the good ship 'Harlot' http://www.kipar.org/society/author/pirates/ Email: nicole@kipar.org URL: http://www.kipar.org ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 08:15:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PCFhIO016995 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:15:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PC7a76011740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:07:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PC7Xlr027011; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:07:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.bee.net (smtp2.bee.net [63.74.90.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PC7Tlr026992 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:07:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Kass ([216.83.100.83]) by smtp2.bee.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52106U5000L500S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:05:53 -0400 From: "Kass McGann" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Average human size? Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:07:28 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c3835d$980a12a0$536453d8@Kass> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hmm. Then why are so many women one or more "sizes" bigger on the bottom than on the top? I heard somewhere years ago (no idea from what source, additional weasel-words to taste) that something like 70% of U.S. women had this particular mismatch. If the companies were actually using a statistical sample, I'd think that their ideas on what size "top" belongs with what size "bottom" would be more in line with the population. >>>> I don't know how to answer you, Chris. I just know that the measurement charts were revamped a number of years ago to conform better with modern body shapes. And one pattern line in particular is revamping them again (bigger waists versus hips and chest) and it's possible that the industry will follow suit if that line is successful. Also, I don't know if it's entirely true that 70% of the population have bigger bottoms. I know I do. But most of my friends have flat bums and large chests. I wonder what your source is using as a source. And don't doubt that the pattern company's source may also be wrong. They may have taken statistics of women only in major cities, or women who filled out a questionnaire, or women who bought at a certain store. Thinking about it, I can't imagine how they could possibly obtain a representative sample of the population. It's not like our measurements are including in census info, you know? Something else just occurred to me. Could it be that the garment industry doesn't pay attention to women's bottoms being a couple sizes larger because the vast majority of clothing is separates and you can buy a different size bottom and top? Just thinking out loud. All I know is this: the garment and pattern industries don't make sizes to be cruel. They're not in business to make us have bad body images. They're in business to sell clothing/patterns. They make sizes to sell to the broadest segment of the population. They're very good at producing what sells. If 70% of American women couldn't wear their clothing, they would change their sizing so that they could. Kass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 08:41:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PCfGIO017022 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:41:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PCeV76013681 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:40:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PCeTlr009855; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:40:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PCeRlr009794 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:40:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8PCeK7R005960 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:40:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030925080057.00af5f28@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:40:02 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Robin Netherton wrote: >On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Angela F. Lazear wrote: > > > They'd also pay about $2500 per gown / outfit for construction for the > > guests. > >Yow, I wish I had an Italian Renn costume to sell you. I have *one* silk-satin Italian undergown c. 1500 that I can part with. It's the only Italian Ren in the garb closet right now, and it's WAAAAYYYYY too large for me (made up to about a size 20; I'm currently wearing 10's and 12's). It's a bit plainer than Angela's stuff, though (I tend to let the fabric speak for itself; I also don't often have time to embellish). Privately, I suggested that Angela might want to consider subcontracting that part of the project which she cannot complete herself. I don't know who I would recommend, though, as all my garb has either been purchased RTW (the early stuff, very NOT authentic) or I've made it myself *for* myself. >For that, I'd be able to make plenty of replacements. Indeed! OTOH, if I were a contractor negociating for subcontracts, I'd not pass on the entire "what they're willing to pay" price to my subcontractors -- yet even half of that price could be nice remuneration, depending upon the materials costs and labor intensiveness of each outfit. As far as rental/sale companies, try http://www.pietrolonghi.com/. Unfortunately it looks like they only have a handful of "Renaissance" costumes available -- and they're not terribly authentic -- but they might be worth the inquiry. Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 09:25:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PDPHIO017675 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:25:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDOW76015839 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:24:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDOUJq029027; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:24:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDOSJq028975 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:24:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.109] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id AB8758CE0114; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:20:07 -0400 Message-ID: <00a701c38368$e90719e0$6d5183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F710919.46566829@charter.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Period Fabrics Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:28:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Can anyone give the approximate width of the fabrics being measured in this inventory. The shirt yardage jumps out as a lot of cloth using contemporary average widths. Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Robertson" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 11:01 PM Subject: [h-cost] Period Fabrics I've received lots of good advice on here, so now it's time to go to the fabric store. The question is, does there exist a one-stop-shop online for good period fabrics? My guideline for this round of clothing is King James' highland wardrobe, as recorded by his own treasurer. Short highland jacket 2 1/4 ells vari-colored velvet 3 ¼ ells green taffeta lining Tartan trews 2 ells highland tartan Long highland shirt 15 ells linen 2 ounces silk thread 4 ells ribbons for wrists of shirt As to how some of this would appear in final form, I'm still a but unsure (but I am listening). :o) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 09:33:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PDXrIO017706 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:33:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDX476016226 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:33:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDX3Jq003336; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:33:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav64.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.199]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDX0Jq003250 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:33:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:32:55 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav64.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:32:55 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001b01c3831c$1c0ddf60$6501a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval sleeve question Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:34:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2003 13:32:55.0474 (UTC) FILETIME=[86E93120:01C38369] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 12:18 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval sleeve question > So are the stories really 12th century or are they passed down from the > 'real' time period that Arthur 'really' existed (~5th century from what I > remember). Does this make how it was done any different? I can imagine > something becoming stylized or given symbolically a long time after it was > done 'for real'....... > > I don't remember when the stories went from the oral tradition to actually > being written down. > > Sg That particular story we were talking about was written by Chrétien de Troyes around 1170. The character of Arthur and some of the events might come from centuries long past, but everything is described in a 12th century world. There was no jousting in one of the possible "real" Arthur's time, and the weapons were different. But I don't know of detachable sleeves even before the 12th C, just after, so that doesn't help me... unless someone else knows about something like that? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 09:42:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PDgGIO017730 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:42:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDfW76016628 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:41:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDfVJq007348; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:41:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav63.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.198]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDfTJq007268 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:41:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:41:23 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav63.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:41:23 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <006e01c381ff$ec950aa0$5b48ccd1@Kass> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Average human size? Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:43:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2003 13:41:23.0729 (UTC) FILETIME=[B5DAC010:01C3836A] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Perhaps I notice it more because I'm among the decidedly pear-shaped, > but hardly anyone seems to make clothing for women with HIPS. Hey, I'm skinny and I have trouble finding pants big enough in the BUTT! :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 09:52:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PDqIIO017747 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:52:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDpm76017127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:51:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDpmJq012485; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:51:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDpjJq012417 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:51:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fenris.net (12-246-237-231.client.attbi.com[12.246.237.231]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2003092513513901500labtde>; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:51:39 +0000 Message-ID: <3F72F2E8.2080201@fenris.net> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:51:36 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Average human size? References: <000001c3835d$980a12a0$536453d8@Kass> In-Reply-To: <000001c3835d$980a12a0$536453d8@Kass> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kass McGann wrote: >And one pattern line in particular is revamping them again >(bigger waists versus hips and chest) and it's possible that the >industry will follow suit if that line is successful. > > > Do you happen to know which pattern line this is? liz young _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 09:53:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PDr0IO017750 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:53:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDlJ76016912 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:47:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDlIJq010152; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:47:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PDlFJq010089 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:47:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fenris.net (12-246-237-231.client.attbi.com[12.246.237.231]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003092513471001400bemive>; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:47:10 +0000 Message-ID: <3F72F1DC.6070106@fenris.net> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:47:08 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Robin Netherton wrote: >On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Helen Pinto wrote: > > >>the section on woolen >>textiles includes lots of interesting twill patterns, as well as >>striped, plaid and checked cloth. So there appears to be surface >>decoration, but it is woven in, not applied. >> >> > >And be very careful to consider scale -- some of the stripe patterns are >small enough to produce a very muted blended look, IIRC. > > I am working on weaving a length of woolen fabric based on the info from the Textiles book. I am using 3 colors of wool, and it is amazing how subtle the patterening is. Which is a long way of saying, 'what Robin said' liz young _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 10:24:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PEOHIO017808 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:24:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PENY76018985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:23:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PENXaA000213; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:23:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PENTaA000162 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:23:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cindyabel (new-hslpharmacy.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) SMTP id JAA11831 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:23:26 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:23:26 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <006601c38345$c9e47300$52010150@Imedia5043> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] New Hunnisett book due out in Oct X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I was hunting for something else online yesterday(another author Hunnisett with no title of new book)and came up with a new publication date for "Period Costume for Stage and Screen: Capes, Dolmans," by the late Jean Hunnisett. It is supposed to be published in late Oct on the stateside of the pond according to bn.com Also listed on Amazon.com Cindy Abel CUMC HSL Creighton University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 10:40:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PEecIO017873 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:40:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PEcX76020155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:38:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PEbZaA012374; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:37:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webmail10.lax.untd.com (outbound29-sr.lax.untd.com [64.136.29.170]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8PEamaA011775 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:37:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"IEJtIXEoMt9Fq70fgd9pWih3WoiBJvTIoBh+Po9pNuENGYXZ73yE9g==">; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:29:06 PDT Received: (from catpurson@juno.com) by webmail10.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JAW9HRXY; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:29:06 PDT Received: from [63.183.176.235] by webmail10.lax.untd.com with HTTP: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:28:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.183.176.235] Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Original-From: "catpurson@juno.com" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:28:06 GMT To: h-costume@net.indra.com X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: catpurson@juno.com Message-Id: <20030925.072906.24817.485196@webmail10.lax.untd.com> Subject: [h-cost] unsub X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com unsub _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 10:58:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PEw4IO021991 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:58:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PEvS76021428 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:57:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PEvQJT025773; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:57:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net (firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.247]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PEvLJT025687 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:57:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-40-227.jps.net ([209.165.40.227] helo=w7m1l6) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2XYM-0001gP-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:57:11 -0700 Message-ID: <00e801c38375$013d1b20$e328a5d1@w7m1l6> From: "Stephen Bergdahl" To: "Historical Costume" References: <049801c382f0$55e3a4d0$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:54:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 08dba192340bde6e1a6ab3b9b70940f894f5150ab1c16ac0175e62059bacab5229c55596353ea1b0f42cdfd57ec208bc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hello Angela Interesting problem you got your hands on. I can't help with the rentals, but I do have time to custom make a few costumes. Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich "I don't suffer from insanity! I fact I rather enjoy it!" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela F. Lazear" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 4:05 PM Subject: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > I've just been contacted by a representative for the owner of a major > airlines. He wants to throw a party in Florida in gorgeous elaborate Italian > Rennaisance. He plans to invite 400 guests. > > They'll pay through the nose, but I can't make 400 gowns in two months. > Anyone got any ideas? I'd hate to flat turn them down, but I'd be way over > my head. Does anyone but me have a hefty stock they'd rent for $500 per > outfit? If we all got together and coordinated, we might be able to help > them, but I don't know what condition things would be returned. They'd also > pay about $2500 per gown / outfit for construction for the guests. The date > is first week November. > > angela > +++++ > Angela F. Lazear > Cabbage Rose Costumes > http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com > Theatrical Costume Design > > "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none: > be able for thine enemy rather in power than use, > and keep thy friend under thy own life's key: > be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..." > W. Shakespeare > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 11:10:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PFAYIO024370 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:10:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PF9Z76022646 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:09:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PF9YJT006694; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:09:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PF9QJT006557 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bed2.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.210]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 08E6A5EE1EF for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:09:25 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003f01c38377$7d90bbd0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <002601c382ba$257728c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <200309242112.02902.cathy@thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT gossip of the royals in Denmark Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:12:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi, I actually dont know who is going to make the gown. But i wonder if they will take off the fine Tønder Lace, that Queen Margrethe II had on her weddingdress. It is a beautifull wide point ground lace with a big floral heart called " The big heart of Denmark ". I have made about 15 cm. of this lace, and it took me forever to make. There are 35 meters of this lace on Margrethes wedding dress. Perhaps it could be used on Marys wedding dress? I cant waite to see the dress.............. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT gossip of the royals in Denmark > On Wednesday 24 September 2003 12:37 pm, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > > What do you say. > > Our Crownprinse Frederik finally desided to get merried. > > He has chosen a girl named Mary Donaldson from (hold your seat) Tasmania. > > They are going to have their wedding in May next year. > > Oh, my. Has the speculation about the design of the bride's gown started yet? > :-) > > > -- > Cathy Raymond > > "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." > --Ozy and Millie > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 11:42:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PFguIO030270 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:42:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PFg276025838 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:42:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PFfxJT004654; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:41:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web80502.mail.yahoo.com (web80502.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.79.72]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8PFfuJT004562 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:41:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030925154151.57390.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.52.135.9] by web80502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:41:51 PDT Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:41:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jen Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030924170516.00b04088@64.87.54.245> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hello Kimiko! By request, here's some pix of me in this outfit. I've put them up on my consulting company website, since I'm not using it for anything else right now. Temporary storage. :) http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page4.html Kimiko Small wrote: But I wanted to share a more direct link to your photo, to verify it was yours. Sometimes I miscount... and me an accountant! http://www.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos03.cgi?cmd=view&id=PW32AS%2DElizabethanGown%2Ejpg&cat=kayleigh I very much like the dress, but would love to see what you looked in it. People so make the outfit. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 12:00:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PG0sIO030302 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:00:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PFxx76027448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:00:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PFxwmf019598; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:59:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web21410.mail.yahoo.com (web21410.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.232.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8PFxsmf019553 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:59:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030925155944.19458.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.187.14.127] by web21410.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:59:43 PDT Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:59:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] "Awww" story, now leads to mid-14th Cen. help for planning wedding clothing! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Greetings! After finally reading through all but 40 of the messages from the past week, I have one to contribute. At Autumn War last Saturday (SCA event for my area) my boyfriend of nearly 3 years conspired with a large number of people to propose to me in Saturday evening Court. More amusing than usual, since I'm the current Baronial Herald, and thus was officiating it for my Baron and Baroness. (He spent 18 months planning, nearly 50 or more folks knew and were involved, except for the Crown Prince who daytripped and was "not accounted for" but apparently highly amused). (if you want the more elaborate details and humorous bits, hit me off-list) Now, I've been on a quest to try and make fairly authentic mid-14th clothing for both of us-with me being Welsh and him Irish, but now I need to plan for something *special*. We've agreed to do the handfasting/betrothal next June at a special SCA event, and the wedding itself in November 2005-but he wants both to be in garb, and more elaborate than our usual stuff! The nice thing is that the clothing will then be our spiffy High Court-type garb. And yes, it can be in two batches for time's sake. The bad part is that my small book collection and my brain are not inspiring me yet. Yes, I've got "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" and notes from Robin's lecture here in the Northwest last month, but I'm not able to verbalize or draw anything up that is happy to me. And knowing me, I need the time to do this...since it means balancing son, job, home, betrothed, hobbies and other bits of life! "Oy vey!" Please help? Any ideas on clothing inspirations? Anyone seen something interesting in a household account or piece of art that I may not have access to? Jonnalyhn / Angharat (who is glad we decided on such a nice long time, since he wants 2 sets of clothing, a chuppah to honor his mother's line, and more details/people than I think I can wrap my brain around right now) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 12:16:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PGGKIO030330 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:16:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGFa76028880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:15:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGFZmf003005; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:15:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8PGFVmf002954 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:15:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 46635 invoked by uid 1005); 25 Sep 2003 16:15:25 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.327018 secs); 25 Sep 2003 16:15:25 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.327018 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 25 Sep 2003 16:15:24 -0000 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:15:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] "Awww" story, now leads to mid-14th Cen. help for planning wedding clothing! In-Reply-To: <20030925155944.19458.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030925121440.D81150-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If you can find it, Margaret Scott's "Visual History of Costume, the 14th & 15th Centuries" is fantastic for pictures and inspiration. Contratulations! Drea On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Angharad ver' Reynulf wrote: > Greetings! > > After finally reading through all but 40 of the > messages from the past week, I have one to contribute. > > At Autumn War last Saturday (SCA event for my area) my > boyfriend of nearly 3 years conspired with a large > number of people to propose to me in Saturday evening > Court. More amusing than usual, since I'm the current > Baronial Herald, and thus was officiating it for my > Baron and Baroness. (He spent 18 months planning, > nearly 50 or more folks knew and were involved, except > for the Crown Prince who daytripped and was "not > accounted for" but apparently highly amused). (if you > want the more elaborate details and humorous bits, hit > me off-list) > > Now, I've been on a quest to try and make fairly > authentic mid-14th clothing for both of us-with me > being Welsh and him Irish, but now I need to plan for > something *special*. We've agreed to do the > handfasting/betrothal next June at a special SCA > event, and the wedding itself in November 2005-but he > wants both to be in garb, and more elaborate than our > usual stuff! > > The nice thing is that the clothing will then be our > spiffy High Court-type garb. And yes, it can be in two > batches for time's sake. The bad part is that my small > book collection and my brain are not inspiring me yet. > Yes, I've got "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" > and notes from Robin's lecture here in the Northwest > last month, but I'm not able to verbalize or draw > anything up that is happy to me. And knowing me, I > need the time to do this...since it means balancing > son, job, home, betrothed, hobbies and other bits of > life! > > "Oy vey!" > > Please help? Any ideas on clothing inspirations? > Anyone seen something interesting in a household > account or piece of art that I may not have access to? > > Jonnalyhn / Angharat > > (who is glad we decided on such a nice long time, > since he wants 2 sets of clothing, a chuppah to honor > his mother's line, and more details/people than I > think I can wrap my brain around right now) > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 12:25:46 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PGPjIO030358 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:25:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGOu76029791 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:24:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGOsmf011111; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:24:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ureach.com (mail.ureach.com [63.150.151.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGOomf011046 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:24:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail22.ureach.com (mail22.ureach.com [172.16.2.82]) by ureach.com (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02750 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:24:50 -0400 Received: from TEENADESKTOP (adsl-19-82-189.asm.bellsouth.net [68.19.82.189]) by mail22.ureach.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA15050 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:24:50 -0400 Message-ID: <010901c38381$90e1c1c0$240110ac@TEENADESKTOP> From: "Teena Paradise" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030925154151.57390.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:24:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wow! Do you have a more detailed picture of the bodice beading? That is so beautiful!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jen Small" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question > Hello Kimiko! > > By request, here's some pix of me in this outfit. I've put them up on my consulting company website, since I'm not using it for anything else right now. Temporary storage. :) > > http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page4.html > > Kimiko Small wrote: > But I wanted to share a more direct link to your photo, to verify it was > yours. Sometimes I miscount... and me an accountant! > http://www.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos03.cgi?cmd=view&id=PW32AS%2DElizabethanGown%2Ejpg&cat=kayleigh > I very much like the dress, but would love to see what you looked in it. > People so make the outfit. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 12:37:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PGbSIO030390 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:37:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGZi76000799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:35:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGZgmf020425; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:35:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGZbmf020293 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:35:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 308509 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:35:32 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:39:49 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Average human size? From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001c3835d$980a12a0$536453d8@Kass> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On 9/25/03 5:07 AM, "Kass McGann" wrote: >>>>> > I don't know how to answer you, Chris. I just know that the measurement > charts were revamped a number of years ago to conform better with modern > body shapes. And one pattern line in particular is revamping them again > (bigger waists versus hips and chest) and it's possible that the > industry will follow suit if that line is successful. I don't know which company you're talking about but I know that Sandra Betzina's patterns for both Vogue and Butterick or McCall's have this added benefit. > >>>> > > Something else just occurred to me. Could it be that the garment > industry doesn't pay attention to women's bottoms being a couple sizes > larger because the vast majority of clothing is separates and you can > buy a different size bottom and top? Just thinking out loud. Another out-loud thought: so many people have to alter their patterns drastically. The pattern companies don't know this; they've never asked me how much I have to alter my patterns to get them to fit. Patternmakers know that some of these alterations are happening because they made such a big deal, especially when they first came out, about multiple sizes on one pattern. They told us how easy it was to alter from one size to the next. Most patterns are produced this way, and not just because it's cheaper for them. > > All I know is this: the garment and pattern industries don't make sizes > to be cruel. They're not in business to make us have bad body images. > They're in business to sell clothing/patterns. They make sizes to sell > to the broadest segment of the population. They're very good at > producing what sells. If 70% of American women couldn't wear their > clothing, they would change their sizing so that they could. > > Kass > Certainly, but if they don't realize how much some people have to change their patterns, they'll never change their sizing. LynnD _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 12:43:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PGhQIO030400 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:43:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGgR76001376 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:42:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGgPmf026408; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:42:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net (lakemtao02.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGgKmf026253 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:42:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from VMAAHQ ([68.96.201.18]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20030925164215.YXYC10677.lakemtao02.cox.net@VMAAHQ> for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:42:15 -0400 From: "Linda Rice" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:41:55 -0400 Message-ID: <000101c38383$f150baa0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20030923204201.00ba9fe8@pop.surewest.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8PGgKmf026253 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thanks to all who helped me try to find a copy of Hald's book. I even went back into the archives looking for info, but I didn't find out any more than I already knew. ;o< I coulda *sworn* that it had been reprinted, but if so I sure can't find out where! I did send a message off to the museum where it was published asking if they might still have a copy, but I haven't heard back yet. I guess I just have to keep watching the used book lists until one comes along that I can afford. I can't make myself pay $131.00 for it yet! Ouch!! Pax, Linda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 12:47:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PGl1IO030404 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:47:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGkJ76001703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:46:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PGkJmf029907; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:46:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9407.mail.yahoo.com (web9407.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.23]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8PGkEmf029801 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:46:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030925164614.41388.qmail@web9407.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:46:14 PDT Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:46:14 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20030925154151.57390.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Jen , that dress is beautiful! I also enjoyed the research sections of your site--since that happens to be the time period and style I've been researching as well:) thanks so much for sharing! Albra Jen Small wrote: Hello Kimiko! By request, here's some pix of me in this outfit. I've put them up on my consulting company website, since I'm not using it for anything else right now. Temporary storage. :) http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page4.html Kimiko Small wrote: But I wanted to share a more direct link to your photo, to verify it was yours. Sometimes I miscount... and me an accountant! http://www.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos03.cgi?cmd=view&id=PW32AS%2DElizabethanGown%2Ejpg&cat=kayleigh I very much like the dress, but would love to see what you looked in it. People so make the outfit. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 13:33:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PHXsIO030524 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:33:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PHX676005968 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:33:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PHX3oL011060; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:33:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PHWxoL011006 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:33:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [205.133.149.143] (pm5-143.eos.net [205.133.149.143]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PHWn5D029320 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:32:56 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:25:40 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200309250236.h8P2a6SE009527@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver running MimeDefang and SPAMAssassin Subject: [h-cost] Re: medieval sleeve favor X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I happen to have Wolfram von Eschenbach's "Parzival" next to my computer, so I looked up the little girl's sleeve incident (Wolfram retold Parzival as he thought it ought to have been). The child does give him a sleeve as a favor, and it's an actual sleeve made as part of a new gown just for the occasion: "Gawan now removed the Sleeve from his shield most carefully lest he tear it .... He gave the Sleeve to Clauditte pierced and hacked through though it was at its middle and end, and asked her to take it to Obilot. "When the girl saw it she was overjoyed! Her white arm had been left bare, and she quickly fastened it over." (translation by A.T. Hatto) This is one of my favorite medieval poems, I heartily recommend it. However, the fact that Wolfram wrote this does not mean that it was really done. He copied extensively from Chretien de Troyes, and may simply have been repeating that story. You have to remember that one of his main characters is an "infidel" scholars all identify as Muslim, but he doesn't know anything about Islam, so all the man talks about is Juno and Jupiter! I would say the matter bears more study. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 13:50:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PHolIO030565 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:50:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PHmd76007701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:48:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PHmZoL024768; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:48:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9403.mail.yahoo.com (web9403.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.109]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8PHmVoL024697 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:48:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030925174831.8821.qmail@web9403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:48:31 PDT Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:48:31 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <000101c38383$f150baa0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Well, that's still a better price than Amazon.com--who wanted $245. for their copy.Yikes! REALLY big ouch!! Albra Linda Rice wrote: Thanks to all who helped me try to find a copy of Hald's book. I even went back into the archives looking for info, but I didn't find out any more than I already knew. ;o< I coulda *sworn* that it had been reprinted, but if so I sure can't find out where! I did send a message off to the museum where it was published asking if they might still have a copy, but I haven't heard back yet. I guess I just have to keep watching the used book lists until one comes along that I can afford. I can't make myself pay $131.00 for it yet! Ouch!! Pax, Linda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 14:03:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PI3wIO030630 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:03:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PI2f76008826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:02:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PI2dpV006660; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:02:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8PI2apV006593 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:02:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 2239 invoked by uid 1005); 25 Sep 2003 18:02:28 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.131879 secs); 25 Sep 2003 18:02:28 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.131879 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 25 Sep 2003 18:02:28 -0000 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:02:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" In-Reply-To: <20030925174831.8821.qmail@web9403.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030925140150.P81150-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Linda, I got my copy from the Danish museum. I emailed jonna.horning@natmus.dk and asked for an invoice, which she sent, which I filled out and sent back with the payment. When I bought it, it was around $50 (excluding shipping.) Good luck, Drea On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, KATHRYN WOLTERS wrote: > Well, that's still a better price than Amazon.com--who wanted $245. for their copy.Yikes! REALLY big ouch!! > Albra > > Linda Rice wrote: > Thanks to all who helped me try to find a copy of Hald's book. I even went back into the archives > looking for info, but I didn't find out any more than I already knew. ;o< I coulda *sworn* that it > had been reprinted, but if so I sure can't find out where! I did send a message off to the museum > where it was published asking if they might still have a copy, but I haven't heard back yet. > > I guess I just have to keep watching the used book lists until one comes along that I can afford. I > can't make myself pay $131.00 for it yet! Ouch!! > > Pax, Linda > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 14:36:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PIa2IO030756 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:36:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PIYw76011704 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:34:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PIYtpV004189; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PIYqpV004152 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:34:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bed2.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.210]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 21C895EE236 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:34:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002001c38394$376d8a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030925154151.57390.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:38:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi. Thanks for the look of your beautifull italian renaissance dress. Oh it is beautifull! Lovely work! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jen Small" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question > Hello Kimiko! > > By request, here's some pix of me in this outfit. I've put them up on my consulting company website, since I'm not using it for anything else right now. Temporary storage. :) > > http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page4.html > > Kimiko Small wrote: > But I wanted to share a more direct link to your photo, to verify it was > yours. Sometimes I miscount... and me an accountant! > http://www.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos03.cgi?cmd=view&id=PW32AS%2DEli zabethanGown%2Ejpg&cat=kayleigh > I very much like the dress, but would love to see what you looked in it. > People so make the outfit. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 14:49:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PInnIO030791 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:49:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PIhm76012691 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:43:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PIhkpV012606; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:43:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web21413.mail.yahoo.com (web21413.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.232.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8PIhfpV012526 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:43:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030925184341.60115.qmail@web21413.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.187.14.127] by web21413.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:43:41 PDT Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:43:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" Subject: Re: [h-cost] "Awww" story, now leads to mid-14th Cen. help for planning wedding clothing! To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20030925121440.D81150-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Drea, Thank you. I'll go put it back on hold. I've had several pages copied before for research, but there might be something else I missed for a fancy one. Angharad __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 14:52:20 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PIqJIO030796 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:52:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PIoh76013184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:50:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PIoepV017975; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:50:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.mackie.com (mail1.mackie.com [12.144.237.151]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PIoapV017886 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:50:36 -0600 (MDT) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:10:33 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" Thread-Index: AcODh5EZw8b7GVvURxKnEjUSIXwDfwAABg0g From: "Colleen McDonald" To: "Historical Costume" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8PIoapV017886 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com <> I purchased an English language copy from the museum for approximately $50 USD including shipping. It was about two years ago and they were quite helpful. Colleen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 15:11:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PJBsIO030821 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:11:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJAT76014929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:10:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJAOgY005219; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:10:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJALgY005143 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:10:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1A2bVM-000KT4-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:10:20 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:47:26 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] "Awww" story, now leads to mid-14th Cen. help for planning wedding clothing! References: <20030925155944.19458.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com> <20030925121440.D81150-100000@shell.siscom.net> In-Reply-To: <20030925121440.D81150-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I just went to my copy of this, because I'm pretty sure it's out of print. This brass caught my eye - http://www.dr-originals.co.uk/gallerydetail.htm The overgarments are very plain on the outside, but the underdresses and where the linings show are exuberantly covered in scrolling plant designs. That could be lots of fun. Do you have long hair (or hairpieces?) how about doing the fancy plaits to start with, and modestly covering it with a veil either as part of the ceremony or afterwards? Jean Drea Leed wrote >If you can find it, Margaret Scott's "Visual History of Costume, the 14th >& 15th Centuries" is fantastic for pictures and inspiration. > >Contratulations! > >Drea > > >On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Angharad ver' Reynulf wrote: > >> Greetings! >> >> After finally reading through all but 40 of the >> messages from the past week, I have one to contribute. >> >> At Autumn War last Saturday (SCA event for my area) my >> boyfriend of nearly 3 years conspired with a large >> number of people to propose to me in Saturday evening >> Court. More amusing than usual, since I'm the current >> Baronial Herald, and thus was officiating it for my >> Baron and Baroness. (He spent 18 months planning, >> nearly 50 or more folks knew and were involved, except >> for the Crown Prince who daytripped and was "not >> accounted for" but apparently highly amused). (if you >> want the more elaborate details and humorous bits, hit >> me off-list) >> >> Now, I've been on a quest to try and make fairly >> authentic mid-14th clothing for both of us-with me >> being Welsh and him Irish, but now I need to plan for >> something *special*. We've agreed to do the >> handfasting/betrothal next June at a special SCA >> event, and the wedding itself in November 2005-but he >> wants both to be in garb, and more elaborate than our >> usual stuff! >> >> The nice thing is that the clothing will then be our >> spiffy High Court-type garb. And yes, it can be in two >> batches for time's sake. The bad part is that my small >> book collection and my brain are not inspiring me yet. >> Yes, I've got "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" >> and notes from Robin's lecture here in the Northwest >> last month, but I'm not able to verbalize or draw >> anything up that is happy to me. And knowing me, I >> need the time to do this...since it means balancing >> son, job, home, betrothed, hobbies and other bits of >> life! >> >> "Oy vey!" >> >> Please help? Any ideas on clothing inspirations? >> Anyone seen something interesting in a household >> account or piece of art that I may not have access to? >> >> Jonnalyhn / Angharat >> >> (who is glad we decided on such a nice long time, >> since he wants 2 sets of clothing, a chuppah to honor >> his mother's line, and more details/people than I >> think I can wrap my brain around right now) >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search >> http://shopping.yahoo.com >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 15:56:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PJu1IO030936 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:56:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJsq76018505 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:54:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJskgY011800; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:54:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJsUgY011527 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:54:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLS00138CMSC8@draco.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:35:07 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question In-reply-to: <20030925154151.57390.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030925123354.00b04088@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <5.2.1.1.0.20030924170516.00b04088@64.87.54.245> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 08:41 AM 9/25/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Hello Kimiko! > >By request, here's some pix of me in this outfit. I've put them up on my >consulting company website, since I'm not using it for anything else right >now. Temporary storage. :) > >http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page4.html Hi Jen, Wow! Thanks so much for sharing. I love the beading you did. Did you follow any fabric patterning? Or was it done freehand? And I like what you did for the sleeves. I also like your research area as well. I have been wanting to make an Italian dress, and looking at your images I can see I won't look so out of place being a larger woman. You have really inspired me with all of this. Thanks!!! Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 15:56:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PJuVIO030939 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:56:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJtT76018609 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:55:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJtRF8012408; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:55:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJsUgc011527 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:54:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLS00138CMSC8@draco.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:47:02 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Period Fabrics In-reply-to: <00a701c38368$e90719e0$6d5183d1@rmitchellras> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030925123908.02f64008@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <3F710919.46566829@charter.net> X-DCC-coop.net-Metrics: net.indra.com 1167; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 09:28 AM 9/25/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Can anyone give the approximate width of the fabrics being measured in this >inventory. The shirt yardage jumps out as a lot of cloth using contemporary >average widths. I had the width info in my notes on Scottish stuff folder, but I gave that folder to my old Guild. They are defunct, so I may ask for it back. I think the width was around 27"-30", but it's been years so it could be a few inches more or less. >Kathleen >----- Original Message ----- >Long highland shirt 15 ells linen > 2 ounces silk thread > 4 ells ribbons for wrists of shirt Also, the books note that the 15 ells were for two or three shirts, so it isn't as much fabric for each shirt as originally seems. hth Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 15:56:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PJunIO030942 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:56:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJtJ76018590 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:55:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJtIF8012300; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:55:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJsUga011527 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:54:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLS00138CMSC8@draco.its.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:36:38 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] "Awww" story, now leads to mid-14th Cen. help for planning wedding clothing! In-reply-to: <20030925155944.19458.qmail@web21410.mail.yahoo.com> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030925123619.02f3a928@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: X-DCC-coop.net-Metrics: net.indra.com 1167; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 08:59 AM 9/25/2003 -0700, you wrote: >At Autumn War last Saturday (SCA event for my area) my >boyfriend of nearly 3 years conspired with a large >number of people to propose to me in Saturday evening >Court. Congratulations!!!! Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 15:57:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PJvcIO030948 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:57:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJun76018723 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:56:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PJukF8013508; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:56:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web80512.mail.yahoo.com (web80512.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.79.82]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8PJugF8013292 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:56:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.52.135.9] by web80512.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:49:56 PDT Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:49:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Jen Small To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <002001c38394$376d8a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thanks everyone for the great feedback! I should say that I have NO documentation for surface embellishment on the front of an Italian late-period dress, but I just couldn't resist. And thank you for the advice and resources re: cotehardies. Take a look at this Italian one -- it looks like trim across the neck and shoulders. Bottom left-hand corner of the page: http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page3.html So here's my next question: There are these two paintings of Mary Magdalene by Crivelli...(http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page3.html at the top of this page) I've looked at a lot of Italian clothes from this period (1480-1520), and these are the only examples I've seen with clasps on the sides of the bodice, open with a center piece like this. Now, my feeling is that this is probably symbolic, as prevailing belief at the time was that Magdalene was a 'loose' woman, and her partially open bodice would be an indicator. However, why would you show a placket then, of a specific color? Is this an overgown/undergown situation? Is it plausible to do this 'open clasp' look? Has anyone seen anything else remotely like this, closed or open? Thanks! --Jen Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Hi. Thanks for the look of your beautifull italian renaissance dress. Oh it is beautifull! Lovely work! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jen Small" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question > Hello Kimiko! > > By request, here's some pix of me in this outfit. I've put them up on my consulting company website, since I'm not using it for anything else right now. Temporary storage. :) > > http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page4.html > > Kimiko Small wrote: > But I wanted to share a more direct link to your photo, to verify it was > yours. Sometimes I miscount... and me an accountant! > http://www.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos03.cgi?cmd=view&id=PW32AS%2DEli zabethanGown%2Ejpg&cat=kayleigh > I very much like the dress, but would love to see what you looked in it. > People so make the outfit. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 16:01:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PK1SIO030964 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:01:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PK0j76019061 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:00:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PK0iF8016816; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:00:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com (imo-r04.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PK0dF8016645 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 14:00:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from PallasAMK@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.1a7.19f505db (15865) for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aol.com (mow-m27.webmail.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by air-id06.mx.aol.com (v96.6) with ESMTP id MAILINID64-3df93f7349451d0; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:00:05 -0400 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:00:04 -0400 From: PallasAMK@aol.com To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <232A5668.484FA432.02708BA2@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 63.251.31.10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Re: Italian Renn project Vol 2, Issue 604 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com If you're looking for that many Italian Renaissance items, I'd suggest contacting your local SCA group, or even within reasonable UPS distance of your area, to see if any members might be willing to rent one or more of their costumes at a negotiated price. If you're talking $500 a pop, I'd be stunned if you didn't have quite a number of interested parties of all shapes and sizes. Pallas _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 17:23:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PLNbIO031111 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:23:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PLMi76026765 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:22:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PLMfY7027396; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:22:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lakemtao01.cox.net (lakemtao01.cox.net [68.1.17.244]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PLMUY7027142 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:22:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from VMAAHQ ([68.96.201.18]) by lakemtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20030925212225.PCZK29208.lakemtao01.cox.net@VMAAHQ> for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:22:25 -0400 From: "Linda Rice" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:22:08 -0400 Message-ID: <000401c383ab$1720d5e0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <20030925140150.P81150-100000@shell.siscom.net> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thank You!!! I'm sure this is better than just writing to the general address that was on the website. I *think* it was to the gift shop, but since I don't speak Danish, I'm not 100% sure! I've wanted this book for years, and now I'm on a mission to get it, if I can. ;o> ::Linda:: -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Drea Leed Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:03 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" Linda, I got my copy from the Danish museum. I emailed jonna.horning@natmus.dk and asked for an invoice, which she sent, which I filled out and sent back with the payment. When I bought it, it was around $50 (excluding shipping.) Good luck, Drea _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 18:26:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PMQkIO031321 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:26:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PMPr76001921 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:25:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PMPjqO017613; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:25:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PMPfqO017564 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:25:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11998 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:48:05 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:48:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question In-Reply-To: <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Jen Small wrote: > And thank you for the advice and resources re: cotehardies. Take a > look at this Italian one -- it looks like trim across the neck and > shoulders. Bottom left-hand corner of the page: > http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page3.html Yes. I've never figured this one out, and there are a few others like it. This is one reason I stay away from Italy; my brain doesn't work there ;-) > So here's my next question: > There are these two paintings of Mary Magdalene by > Crivelli...(http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page3.html at the > top of this page) I've looked at a lot of Italian clothes from this > period (1480-1520), and these are the only examples I've seen with > clasps on the sides of the bodice, open with a center piece like this. Ah, this is one I *do* know about, as my research partner Verna Rutz got fascinated with these two images, and I was working on saints at the same time. So we collaborated on a couple of papers at Kalamazoo one year -- I spoke about Mary Magdalen symbolism in medieval artistic tradition, and Verna focused on the Crivelli interpretation in light of that, using these two paintings as examples and talking about the real elements and the symbolic overlays. We recreated the dress, too, and I got to model it. Verna gave this talk again a few years ago at the first KWCS, so some people on this list saw the dress at that session. > Now, my feeling is that this is probably symbolic, as prevailing > belief at the time was that Magdalene was a 'loose' woman, and her > partially open bodice would be an indicator. That's part of it, though it can be a little more complex. There are many 15th century Flemish examples of showing Magdalen with a partially open bodice, which can be seen as either sexy/wanton, or distressed, or even as "unworldly" attitude by a woman with very worldly clothes (e.g. to say "here is a courtesan who turned to more spiritual concerns"). All these meanings probably got bundled up into the habit of showing Magdalen half-laced-up. Italian and Flemish art had a lot of interaction, and you'll find a lot of the artistic vocabulary repeated from one culture to the other. Magdalen also often provided artists with the opportunity to do really fancy, flashy, cutting-edge fashions. You can write off her overabundance of trim as being Magdalen-specific extravagance overlaid on a generally realistic style. > However, why would you show a placket then, of a specific color? Is > this an overgown/undergown situation? Is it plausible to do this > 'open clasp' look? Has anyone seen anything else remotely like this, > closed or open? We read it as an overgown/undergown. When we worked on the dress, we found that what looks like a "sweetheart" shape or curve to the open part of the overdress neckline (particularly visible in the right-hand image) was actually a straight line. If you get a good close-up of the image, you can follow the brocade pattern (half-buried under all that gold trim) in a straight line up the edge. The curve is what you get with a straight-front closure on a rather busty woman, if you undo the closure just halfway down. The undone part springs open, pulling away from center. (We actually figured this out when I was changing out of a button-down modern blouse, and caught sight of myself in a mirror with my blouse half-undone. I saw the same curve, and there we had it.) In a couple of Crivelli's other saint pictures -- I think one of the Virgin and one of St. Catherine, but I'd have to look -- these more "proper" women are wearing the same style of front closure, but done up all the way, in a straight line. So, we reconstructed the overdress as having a tight bodice with a straight-front closure, which we then opened halfway (I have a large bust and narrow waist, so it sprang open into that shape perfectly). I wore it over a plainer underdress, which then showed at the opening of the neck. Underdresses of this type are well established in Italy and Flanders both; I'd earlier made a Flemish version. The only difference from my Flemish underdress was that I pleated the skirt into the bodice all the way around for the Italian version. The underdress is sleeveless -- plenty of evidence for that style in Italy at this time, IIRC -- so the chemise shows out from the openings in the overdress sleeve. For the "clasps," I found jewelry findings at a craft store of the right shape that had three holes on one side and one hole on the other. I turned them sideways and sewed the three holes to the fabric, and pointed the single hole to the center. I then laced up the dress through the holes. In other words, we used them as lacing mounts, not clasps per se. I think a good close-up on at least some of the Crivellis show that these are laced, not individually fastened the way, say, cloak clasps might be. But I'd have to look at the sources again, and I don't have the Crivelli book. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 18:28:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PMSLIO031326 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:28:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PMRU76002083 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:27:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PMRSqO018908; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:27:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (root@mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PMR2qO018511 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:27:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oldwaylane.net (dialup-67.72.166.158.Dial1.Washington1.Level3.net [67.72.166.158]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09014 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F736C0D.1080905@oldwaylane.net> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:28:29 -0400 From: Judy Mitchell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3.1) Gecko/20030425 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" References: <000101c38383$f150baa0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> In-Reply-To: <000101c38383$f150baa0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Linda Rice wrote: > Thanks to all who helped me try to find a copy of Hald's book. I even went back into the archives > looking for info, but I didn't find out any more than I already knew. ;o< I coulda *sworn* that it > had been reprinted, but if so I sure can't find out where! I did send a message off to the museum > where it was published asking if they might still have a copy, but I haven't heard back yet. Good luck getting the museum to answer. I have NEVER gotten them to get back to me! Maybe you'll be lucky? > I guess I just have to keep watching the used book lists until one comes along that I can afford. I > can't make myself pay $131.00 for it yet! Ouch!! I even looked through bookfinder.com and amazon was listed at close on $185 for new, and the only other used ones were all in Denmark and costing over $100 anyway. Nothing came up on half.com either. I'd suggest keeping an eye out on David Brown Books (they don't list either at the moment), they are usually the ones who carry it when we've all bought ours. Good luck! -Judy Mitchell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 18:55:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PMthIO031350 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:55:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PMt576004076 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:55:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PMt4LU008928; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:55:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PMt1qO008868 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:55:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fenris.net (12-246-237-231.client.attbi.com[12.246.237.231]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2003092522545901100oincde>; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:54:59 +0000 Message-ID: <3F73723F.40506@fenris.net> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:54:55 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: medieval sleeve favor References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Gail & Scott Finke wrote: >I happen to have Wolfram von Eschenbach's "Parzival" next to my computer, so >I looked up the little girl's sleeve incident (Wolfram retold Parzival as he >thought it ought to have been). The child does give him a sleeve as a favor, >and it's an actual sleeve made as part of a new gown just for the occasion: > >"Gawan now removed the Sleeve from his shield most carefully lest he tear it >.... He gave the Sleeve to Clauditte pierced and hacked through though it >was at its middle and end, and asked her to take it to Obilot. > >"When the girl saw it she was overjoyed! Her white arm had been left bare, >and she quickly fastened it over." > >(translation by A.T. Hatto) > > > Here is a translation by Helen M. Mustard and Charles E. Passage, Vintage books 1961 of the section where Gawan gets the sleeve: Book 7, section 375 and 376 Gawan has agreed to accept a token from Obilot. Obilot does not have anything suitable to give him, so her father asks that she be given a better dress. She gets two dresses cut for her, a simple one and a rich one. "Of pfellel-silk interwoven with gold they cut out a dress for the little lady. Her one arm had to be left bare, for they took away that sleeve to give to Gawan...It had rested on her right arm but was not sewed to the dress..." "Gawan...had three shields, and on the one he straightway nailed the sleeve." 390 - 391 "Over her bare white arm she drew it on, and walking back and forth...." The translators make a note during the 1st section that the woman would normally have given a sleeve from an already existing dress, rather than a new sleeve. They give no basis for that claim. liz young, geeking on the Germans _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 19:37:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PNbxIO031396 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:37:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PNbC76006796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:37:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PNbBLU004280; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:37:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law10-f43.law10.hotmail.com [64.4.15.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PNb8LU004216 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:37:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:37:03 -0700 Received: from 66.237.9.226 by lw10fd.law10.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:37:03 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.237.9.226] X-Originating-Email: [jessicastier@hotmail.com] From: "jessica stier" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:37:03 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2003 23:37:03.0154 (UTC) FILETIME=[EC363920:01C383BD] Subject: [h-cost] Re: About "Danish Textiles" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com One of the wonderful things about Denmark, is that 99% of the population speaks English. It's taught in the schools and is everywhere in the media. You can be fairly certain that the receiver of your email will be able to understand and respond in English. And if they can't, then the person who sits in the office next door will most likely be able to. Denmark is such a fabulous country! I love the people, the food, the scenery, the culture, the heritage and of course the fantastic embroidery that comes from our friend Bjarne!!! I'm a walking travel brochure... Good luck with getting the book! :) jessica > >Thank You!!! I'm sure this is better than just writing to the general >address that was on the >website. I *think* it was to the gift shop, but since I don't speak Danish, >I'm not 100% sure! >I've wanted this book for years, and now I'm on a mission to get it, if I >can. ;o> > >::Linda:: _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 19:41:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8PNfvIO031403 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:41:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PNe17C006979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:41:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PNVULU001241; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:31:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8PNVCLU001042 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:31:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bridgette.cornell.edu (syr-24-58-121-78.twcny.rr.com [24.58.121.78])h8PNVAI9024943 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030925192132.00a25c40@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:31:09 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: Mari Stewart In-Reply-To: References: <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] Lacing Hooks was "Thanks, and another question" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi all... Robin, thanks so much for posting your interpretation of the Magdalen dresses. I found the artistic interpretation to be especially helpful. When I made a reconstruction of this dress I was fortunate enough to have a good friend cast the lacing hooks for me. They are an ingenious little device with a lacing hole (rather square-ish) on one end, and a small hook to go through an eyelet on the other. Why this particular device caught on in some areas I haven't discovered yet. But in my searching I have found more evidence of the Flanders/Italy cross pollination you mention. These little hooks - or something darn similar - are seen in some of the Flemish paintings also. Fascinating stuff. Bridgette >So, we reconstructed the overdress as having a tight bodice with a >straight-front closure, which we then opened halfway (I have a large bust >and narrow waist, so it sprang open into that shape perfectly). I wore it >over a plainer underdress, which then showed at the opening of the neck. >Underdresses of this type are well established in Italy and Flanders both; >I'd earlier made a Flemish version. The only difference from my Flemish >underdress was that I pleated the skirt into the bodice all the way around >for the Italian version. The underdress is sleeveless -- plenty of >evidence for that style in Italy at this time, IIRC -- so the chemise >shows out from the openings in the overdress sleeve. > >For the "clasps," I found jewelry findings at a craft store of the right >shape that had three holes on one side and one hole on the other. I turned >them sideways and sewed the three holes to the fabric, and pointed the >single hole to the center. I then laced up the dress through the holes. In >other words, we used them as lacing mounts, not clasps per se. I think a >good close-up on at least some of the Crivellis show that these are laced, >not individually fastened the way, say, cloak clasps might be. But I'd >have to look at the sources again, and I don't have the Crivelli book. Mari Stewart, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 20:24:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q0OpIO031541 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:24:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q0OK76009229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:24:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q0OIAm027696; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:24:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtaw6.prodigy.net (mtaw6.prodigy.net [64.164.98.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q0OEAm027646 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:24:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-67-124-38-231.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.124.38.231]) by mtaw6.prodigy.net (8.12.9/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8Q0Nv7Z023856 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030925171628.05b29d70@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:17:15 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books In-Reply-To: <001a01c382cd$ecd78640$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >Another good book i loved a lot. Was a book where you could cut out the >figures and costumes, fold them and bend them, whatever- and glue them >together. They became 3 dimensional costume dolls. >Beginning with a lady with a big hennin, and ending with an edwardian lady. >The renaissance figure was a drum shaped farthingale with a fan ruff. They >also had backgrounds you could place each doll in the correct background, >I made them all and my room was full of these dolls I got one of these and regretted having cut it up. I was able to find another one and won't cut it up. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 20:32:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q0WsIO031549 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:32:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q0WO76009654 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:32:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q0WMAm001875; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:32:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.11.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8Q0WJAm001813 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:32:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-118-230-145.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO angelap3a8d978) (cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net@67.118.230.145 with login) by smtp1.mail.vip.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Sep 2003 00:32:13 -0000 Message-ID: <003001c383c6$3affed00$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> From: "Cabbage Rose" To: "Historical Costume" References: <049801c382f0$55e3a4d0$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> <00e801c38375$013d1b20$e328a5d1@w7m1l6> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:36:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Well I'm going to sit down and see, first if they're really serious (this woman may just be thinking rich folks will spend money, I've always found the opposite to be the case) and then see if I can get enough sub contractors together to make it worthwhile, at those prices, obviously, we'd all be crazy not to make a few ... I'll keep you in the loop. angela ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Bergdahl" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > Hello Angela > > Interesting problem you got your hands on. I can't help with the rentals, > but I do have time to custom make a few costumes. > > Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich > > "I don't suffer from insanity! I fact I rather enjoy it!" > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Angela F. Lazear" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 4:05 PM > Subject: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > > > > I've just been contacted by a representative for the owner of a major > > airlines. He wants to throw a party in Florida in gorgeous elaborate > Italian > > Rennaisance. He plans to invite 400 guests. > > > > They'll pay through the nose, but I can't make 400 gowns in two months. > > Anyone got any ideas? I'd hate to flat turn them down, but I'd be way > over > > my head. Does anyone but me have a hefty stock they'd rent for $500 per > > outfit? If we all got together and coordinated, we might be able to help > > them, but I don't know what condition things would be returned. They'd > also > > pay about $2500 per gown / outfit for construction for the guests. The > date > > is first week November. > > > > angela > > +++++ > > Angela F. Lazear > > Cabbage Rose Costumes > > http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com > > Theatrical Costume Design > > > > "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none: > > be able for thine enemy rather in power than use, > > and keep thy friend under thy own life's key: > > be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..." > > W. Shakespeare > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 20:34:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q0Y4IO031555 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:34:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q0XM76009704 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:33:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q0XLAm002400; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:33:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.11.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8Q0XJAm002321 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:33:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-118-230-145.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO angelap3a8d978) (cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net@67.118.230.145 with login) by smtp1.mail.vip.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Sep 2003 00:33:13 -0000 Message-ID: <005901c383c6$5ea1c850$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> From: "Cabbage Rose" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 17:37:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm having trouble believing it's for real, but would kick myself if I didn't check it out. a ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Netherton" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > > On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Angela F. Lazear wrote: > > > They'd also pay about $2500 per gown / outfit for construction for the > > guests. > > Yow, I wish I had an Italian Renn costume to sell you. For that, I'd be > able to make plenty of replacements. > > --Robin > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 21:00:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q10HIO031591 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:00:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q0xP76011038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:59:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q0xO4J014178; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:59:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.11.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8Q0xL4J014129 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:59:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-118-230-145.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO angelap3a8d978) (cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net@67.118.230.145 with login) by smtp1.mail.vip.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Sep 2003 00:59:15 -0000 Message-ID: <00ed01c383ca$01da1dd0$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> From: "Cabbage Rose" To: "Historical Costume" References: <005901c383c6$5ea1c850$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:03:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sorry, those last were meant to be off list! a ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cabbage Rose" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > I'm having trouble believing it's for real, but would kick myself if I > didn't check it out. > > a > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin Netherton" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 10:35 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > > > > > > On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Angela F. Lazear wrote: > > > > > They'd also pay about $2500 per gown / outfit for construction for the > > > guests. > > > > Yow, I wish I had an Italian Renn costume to sell you. For that, I'd be > > able to make plenty of replacements. > > > > --Robin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 21:16:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q1GRIO031603 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:16:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q1E376011652 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:14:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q1E24J020666; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:14:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q1Dt4J020630 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:13:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-52-179.jps.net ([209.165.52.179] helo=pavilion) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2hB8-0007S3-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:13:52 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c383cb$e1b45f00$b334a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <049801c382f0$55e3a4d0$91e67643@angelap3a8d978><00e801c38375$013d1b20$e328a5d1@w7m1l6> <003001c383c6$3affed00$91e67643@angelap3a8d978> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:16:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'd be interested too Angela. I'm just finishing a temp job in a week, although there is always another around the corner, but I could take a break. I also sent another email to you privately but received a message that is had a non-fatal error and was yet to be delivered. In it, I mentioned that I not so long ago joining the Professional Association of Custom Clothiers and would be happy to post a message for you there seeking costumer's if you wish. Will be interesting to see what develops. Lisa ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cabbage Rose" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > Well I'm going to sit down and see, first if they're really serious (this > woman may just be thinking rich folks will spend money, I've always found > the opposite to be the case) and then see if I can get enough sub > contractors together to make it worthwhile, at those prices, obviously, we'd > all be crazy not to make a few ... I'll keep you in the loop. > > angela > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Bergdahl" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 7:54 AM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > > > > Hello Angela > > > > Interesting problem you got your hands on. I can't help with the rentals, > > but I do have time to custom make a few costumes. > > > > Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich > > > > "I don't suffer from insanity! I fact I rather enjoy it!" > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Angela F. Lazear" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 4:05 PM > > Subject: [h-cost] Italian Renn project > > > > > > > I've just been contacted by a representative for the owner of a major > > > airlines. He wants to throw a party in Florida in gorgeous elaborate > > Italian > > > Rennaisance. He plans to invite 400 guests. > > > > > > They'll pay through the nose, but I can't make 400 gowns in two months. > > > Anyone got any ideas? I'd hate to flat turn them down, but I'd be way > > over > > > my head. Does anyone but me have a hefty stock they'd rent for $500 per > > > outfit? If we all got together and coordinated, we might be able to > help > > > them, but I don't know what condition things would be returned. They'd > > also > > > pay about $2500 per gown / outfit for construction for the guests. The > > date > > > is first week November. > > > > > > angela > > > +++++ > > > Angela F. Lazear > > > Cabbage Rose Costumes > > > http://www.cabbagerosecostumes.com > > > Theatrical Costume Design > > > > > > "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none: > > > be able for thine enemy rather in power than use, > > > and keep thy friend under thy own life's key: > > > be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..." > > > W. Shakespeare > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > h-costume mailing list > > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 22:01:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q213IO031671 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:01:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q20L76013843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:00:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q20Jl7011392; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:00:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt2.ihug.co.nz (grunt2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.42]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q20Gl7011352 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:00:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p105-nas15.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.206.233] by grunt2.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A2htu-0005lw-00; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:00:10 +1200 Message-ID: <008f01c383d1$dc0e15e0$e9ceadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:59:23 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > And thank you for the advice and resources re: cotehardies. Take a look at this Italian one -- it looks like trim across the neck and shoulders. Bottom left-hand corner of the page: http://www.bluecanaryconsulting.com/_wsn/page3.html As Robin said the Italians were doing different things;) I've even found images that show a waist seam.. or rather a top of the hips seam. Two of which have a different colour to the top than the skirt... one is actually early 15thC though. And this happens to be one of my favourite paintings:) I'm collecting bits to make it eventually. But I'll be making it in wool. I love the stuff. I would really recommend using a raglan sleeve for this. I'm just working on my Anna Meyer dress (on hold as I attempt to lose weight again;) ) and the raglan sleeves make such a difference. You can get that off the shoulder look without it actually falling right off the shoulders. They do stay right there. Especially with a fitted sleeve. Unfortunately as I'm hand sewing the thing fitting is a real pain. I may use a wide stitch on my machine to speed the fitting process then take the stitches ou once i've sewn. http://costumes.glittersweet.com/annameyer.htm I won't give my views on the Magdalen dresses. I love allaegorical art, and plan on reproducing some one day (Flemish though). But it's a tiring subject;) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 22:18:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q2IZIO031685 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:18:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q2Hs76015021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:17:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q2Hql7020618; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:17:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hekili.k12.hi.us (hekili.k12.hi.us [165.248.1.200]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q2Hml7020589 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:17:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from makani by hekili.k12.hi.us (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0HLS00JN0UDMKF@hekili.k12.hi.us> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:17:46 -1000 (HST) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:17:07 -1000 (HST) From: annora Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question In-reply-to: <008f01c383d1$dc0e15e0$e9ceadcb@michaela> To: Historical Costume Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-X-Sender: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > images that show a waist seam.. or rather a top of the hips seam. Two of > which have a different colour to the top than the skirt... one is actually > early 15thC though. Would you mind sharing what these two images are? thanks, annora _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Sep 25 23:49:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q3n6IO031817 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:49:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q3mQ76019139 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:48:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q3mPLF000661; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:48:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q3mMLF000632 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:48:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from user-33qtk8r.dialup.mindspring.com ([199.174.209.27] helo=pavilion) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2jae-0002uK-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:48:21 -0700 Message-ID: <001301c383e1$78d1c700$b334a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:51:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Fun time machine question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8Q3n6IO031817 I admit to pinching this from another list but it was too good to resist doing so. The question is: "if you could spend a week (we all know that a day just wouldn't be enough) with someone in the past or present to learn about the art of sewing/designing, etc. who would you pick?" This one is really tough for me. I know I would have loved to chat with Joseph Campbell or Marshall McCulan but sewing, I'm still thinking. I'm pretty interested at the moment in knowing how those 16th century laundresses kept their poking sticks clean enough to press those white linen ruffs, but no doubt someone else might come to mind that I'd give preference to. How about the rest of you? Lisa Sinervo www.thrednedlestrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 01:15:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q5F4IO031953 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:15:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q5EB76022938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:14:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q5E14Q003794; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:14:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8Q5Dv4Q003777 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:13:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 17288 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2003 05:13:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail2.inreach.com) (209.142.2.51) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 26 Sep 2003 05:13:56 -0000 Received: from 12.233.32.69 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com) by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1157.12.233.32.69.1064553236.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:13:56 -0700 (PDT) From: To: In-Reply-To: <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> References: <002001c38394$376d8a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Another Italian question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hello list, My forte is Italian rennaisance dress. I love it. But one thing has stumped me beyond belief and I am hoping someone out there can help me. I was in the process of making a late rennaisance Italian dress like this one... http://www.culture.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=CHERCHER&FIELD_1=AUTR&VALUE_1=MORONI%20Giambattista&DOM=All&REL_SPECIFIC=1&IMAGE_ONLY=CHECKED I had made the corset and had patterned the bodice already when I attempted to re-create the ruffled edge of the chemise that shows at the top of the collar. I just could NOT get it to work!! It is not a ruff (which I *do* know how to make). It is a ruffled edge of the chemise that stands up and out of the collar. If anyone has tried this and has some pointers, I will gratefully learn from your experience because I love the look and would still like to make one some day.... TIA, Diana _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 01:22:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q5MaIO031958 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:22:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q5M176023253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:22:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q5M04Q006928; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:22:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.182]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8Q5Lw4Q006914 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:21:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-119-193-240.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@67.119.193.240 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Sep 2003 05:21:58 -0000 Message-ID: <00c001c383ee$1a71b320$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001301c383e1$78d1c700$b334a5d1@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun time machine question Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:21:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Can I spend a week with Charles Worth or Emile Pingat? :) - Kendra _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 03:39:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q7d3IO002622 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 03:39:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q7ca76027304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:38:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q7cXFI026998; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:38:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rly-ip03.mx.aol.com (rly-ip03.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.7]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q7cTFI026946 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:38:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from logs-mtc-tg.proxy.aol.com (logs-mtc-tg.proxy.aol.com [64.12.102.135]) by rly-ip03.mx.aol.com (v95.1) with ESMTP id RELAYIN1-23f73dcf22ac; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:30:10 2000 Received: from penny (ACAA1C61.ipt.aol.com [172.170.28.97]) h8Q6S2af150060 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:28:03 GMT Message-ID: <022c01c383f7$7059cd00$0400a8c0@aoldsl.net> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:28:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Apparently-From: Fashincop@aol.com X-AOL-IP: 64.12.102.135 Subject: [h-cost] Thank you X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thank you for understanding why I am not having the Online Costume Ball this year. It gave me great comfort with the letters of support that people sent. You all are wonderful caring people. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 04:09:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q89BIO015641 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:09:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q88S76027985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:08:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q88Rhb006771; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:08:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q88Phb006765 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:08:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id h8Q899A01552.; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:09:09 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:08:24 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.0 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:07:42 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >>> dch@inreach.com 09/26/03 06:13am >>> wrote: >I was in the process of making a late rennaisance Italian dress like this >one... http://www.culture.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=CHERCHER&FIELD_1=AUTR&VALUE_1=MORONI%20Giambattista&DOM=All&REL_SPECIFIC=1&IMAGE_ONLY=CHECKED >I had made the corset and had patterned the bodice already when I >attempted to re-create the ruffled edge of the chemise that shows at the >top of the collar. I just could NOT get it to work!! It is not a ruff >(which I *do* know how to make). It is a ruffled edge of the chemise that >stands up and out of the collar. I haven't made one, but it reminds me of the neck frills worn by some boy choristers. They are not attached to a garment, but consist of a ruffle stitched to a neckband which is worn inside the stand-up collar of the cassock. Presumably in period the shirt/chemise would be made with a high neckband and the ruffle sewn to that? Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 04:38:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q8chIO023482 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:38:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q8bx76028852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:37:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q8bvhb016181; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:37:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt6.ihug.co.nz (grunt6.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q8bshb016145 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 02:37:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p529-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.194.21] by grunt6.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A2o6q-0003EH-00; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:37:52 +1200 Message-ID: <000701c38409$72947590$15c2adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> <4.3.1.2.20030925171628.05b29d70@mail.frys.com> Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:37:28 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > >Another good book i loved a lot. Was a book where you could cut out the > >figures and costumes, fold them and bend them, whatever- and glue them > >together. They became 3 dimensional costume dolls. > >Beginning with a lady with a big hennin, and ending with an edwardian lady. > >The renaissance figure was a drum shaped farthingale with a fan ruff. They > >also had backgrounds you could place each doll in the correct background, > >I made them all and my room was full of these dolls That was the one with really wicked 70s style patterns on the fabric right? I got some copies of a book in a library in another city... I made a copy of the copy before cutting anything out. They were a really neat idea. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 05:46:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8Q9klIO005218 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 05:46:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q9kB76001931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 03:46:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q9kAXW005499; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 03:46:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt6.ihug.co.nz (grunt6.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8Q9k5XW005472 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 03:46:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p529-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.194.21] by grunt6.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A2pAp-0007g8-00; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:46:03 +1200 Message-ID: <001101c38412$fe876630$15c2adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:45:59 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > images that show a waist seam.. or rather a top of the hips seam. Two of > > which have a different colour to the top than the skirt... one is actually > > early 15thC though. > Would you mind sharing what these two images are? Sure.. I have the links of a few... but two are from a scan in my book Medieval Art of Love. The links were given to me after I asked about an image in the aotc list on yahoo (age of the cotehardie's new group that is.) "I didn't upload it, but here's a copy of it from the Web Gallery of Art: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/a/andrea/firenze/sins.jpg ANDREA DA FIRENZE The Church Militant and Triumphant (detail) 1365-68 Fresco Cappella Spagnuolo, Santa Maria Novella, Florence from the larger fresco at: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/a/andrea/firenze/triumph.jpg " "> And there is that white bodice and green skirt of some others dancing > in a circle that used to be used for (I think) the SCA Garb *club* > when yahoo still had clubs and groups. It looks about the same time > as this.. though I'm now going by the thumbnail for the sca garb > community at livejournal. I believe those ladies are in this one... another detail... http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/a/andrea/firenze/church.jpg " There was also mention of skirt panels found, but it's probably a case of a gown being cut and reused for another purpose. I would have said, well maybe the green and white is another garment over the white.. but I don't think so. Not with it sitting on the hips, that's quite late 20thC or early 21st but 14th? I know there are German aprons that wrap all the way around and look like different coloured skirts, but they are at waist level and from the 16thC. I'll see if I can upload the odd images I have of a green and red garment that is actually being put on so you can see it's one garment. The lacing is loose so you can see it go from red to green. http://glittersweet.com/1411frescojacquerio.jpg I have no idea what is going on with this image at all. That hat thing looks like something from the 20thC;) http://glittersweet.com/1344msgrise.jpg This is a really short figure on the border of a Manuscript. I just included it as it could be an explanation of the two toned dress as well as the one above. Maybe there is a short jacket thing over the dress. But the figure is too truncated to really say what is going on. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 06:29:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QAT0IO005287 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:29:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QASR76002977 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:28:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QASQbL019562; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:28:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QASLbM019492 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:28:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8QAYr0q014704 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:34:53 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F7414F2.6090107@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:29:06 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question References: <001101c38412$fe876630$15c2adcb@michaela> In-Reply-To: <001101c38412$fe876630$15c2adcb@michaela> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com michaela wrote: > http://glittersweet.com/1411frescojacquerio.jpg > I have no idea what is going on with this image at all. That hat thing looks > like something from the 20thC;) I would say that's a man in a woman's dress, with a white, striped kerchief bundled up somehow. Except the dress isn't cut for a woman, it's very straight. Man's under-dress? The button-gauntlet sleeves are interesting also. > http://glittersweet.com/1344msgrise.jpg > This is a really short figure on the border of a Manuscript. I just included > it as it could be an explanation of the two toned dress as well as the one > above. Maybe there is a short jacket thing over the dress. But the figure is > too truncated to really say what is going on. I think that's a red dress which has been hitched up for working, and the white is the shift/shirt which shows beneath. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. -- Noam Chomsky _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 06:40:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QAeTIO005328 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:40:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QAdp76003340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:39:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QAdobL023420; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:39:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zinc.btinternet.com (zinc.btinternet.com [194.73.73.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QAdlbL023376 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 04:39:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from host81-129-1-42.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.129.1.42] helo=dan) by zinc.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #23) id 1A2q0o-00044V-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:39:46 +0100 Message-ID: <003a01c3841a$95644b20$2a018151@dan> From: "Stevie Gamble" To: Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:40:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [h-cost] Isabel de Valois, and her pearls X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi all, Deredere's posts on this sent me back to my books; there is a very high-res scan of Coello's portrait at page 19 of the AMNH book 'Pearls: A Natural History' which clearly shows that everything on the fabric of her skirt and bodice is made up of pearls. Rather a lot of them... best wishes Stevie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 09:18:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QDI0IO005581 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:18:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QDHN76009431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:17:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QDHMRi025137; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:17:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QDHKRi025119 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:17:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 85725 invoked by uid 1005); 26 Sep 2003 13:17:16 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.08982 secs); 26 Sep 2003 13:17:16 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.08982 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 26 Sep 2003 13:17:15 -0000 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:17:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun time machine question In-Reply-To: <001301c383e1$78d1c700$b334a5d1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20030926091700.V97197-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com For me: Walter Fyshe, the head tailor in Queen Elizabeth's wardrobe. Drea On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Lisa Sinervo wrote: > I admit to pinching this from another list but it was too good to resist doing so. > > The question is: "if you could spend a week (we all know that a day just wouldn't be enough) > with someone in the past or present to learn about the art of sewing/designing, etc. who would you pick?" > > This one is really tough for me. I know I would have loved to chat with Joseph Campbell or Marshall McCulan but sewing, I'm still thinking. I'm pretty interested at the moment in knowing how those 16th century laundresses kept their poking sticks clean enough to press those white linen ruffs, but no doubt someone else might come to mind that I'd give preference to. > > How about the rest of you? > > Lisa Sinervo > www.thrednedlestrete.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 09:23:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QDNDIO005585 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:23:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QDMe76009686 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:22:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QDMdRi027357; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:22:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QDMbRi027344 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:22:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234])h8QDMaVp009395 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:22:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030926091841.00b9eac8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:22:39 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question In-Reply-To: <1157.12.233.32.69.1064553236.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> References: <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> <002001c38394$376d8a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I've had some success with these, the trick I have found is don't think ruffle (it implies randomness) think pleating. The way I have done it in the past is with a band at the top of the chemise to catch the body and draw it into the neckline. Then adding a pleated band of overlapping box pleats, ironed in at the bottom 1/4" to allow easier pleating, but not at the top. This gives the soft double row of ruffles. Sewn on by hand, of course. Good luck. Bridgette >Hello list, > >My forte is Italian rennaisance dress. I love it. But one thing has >stumped me beyond belief and I am hoping someone out there can help me. > >I was in the process of making a late rennaisance Italian dress like this >one... > >http://www.culture.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=CHERCHER&FIELD_1=AUTR&VALUE_1=MORONI%20Giambattista&DOM=All&REL_SPECIFIC=1&IMAGE_ONLY=CHECKED > >I had made the corset and had patterned the bodice already when I >attempted to re-create the ruffled edge of the chemise that shows at the >top of the collar. I just could NOT get it to work!! It is not a ruff >(which I *do* know how to make). It is a ruffled edge of the chemise that >stands up and out of the collar. > >If anyone has tried this and has some pointers, I will gratefully learn >from your experience because I love the look and would still like to make >one some day.... > >TIA, > >Diana > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 09:24:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QDO5IO005588 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:24:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QDNM76009709 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:23:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QDNLRi027634; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:23:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QDNJRi027577 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:23:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCtoqtQL/ObVAmid4Y2z2i5ezHQe9qhcWaQ==">; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:22:19 PDT Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JAZP37UK; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:22:19 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:20:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question Message-ID: <20030926.082007.-642647.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-6 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com What style of ruff are you making? Are you doing the figure 8/pleat onto a band ala Winter and Savoy, or are you doing the gathering thread along one edge pulled into gathers style that Jean Hunnisett advocated? If you try the second style you will find that it will work just fine for that collar/ruff look. Karen ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 09:44:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QDiAIO005657 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:44:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QD3U76008530 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:03:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QD3PRi017998; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:03:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QD3NRi017978 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:03:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234])h8QD3MVp025751 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030926090019.00b6d880@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:03:27 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun time machine question In-Reply-To: <001301c383e1$78d1c700$b334a5d1@pavilion> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Make it a month (or more) with all the sensible caveats in place and send me back to Florence / with a side trip to Hungary, and another to Ireland... Just let me learn from the tailors of the day, and the housewives... That's where my true interest lies, in the mundane objects of the past. Bridgette >The question is: "if you could spend a week (we all know that a day just >wouldn't be enough) >with someone in the past or present to learn about the art of >sewing/designing, etc. who would you pick?" > >This one is really tough for me. I know I would have loved to chat with >Joseph Campbell or Marshall McCulan but sewing, I'm still thinking. I'm >pretty interested at the moment in knowing how those 16th century >laundresses kept their poking sticks clean enough to press those white >linen ruffs, but no doubt someone else might come to mind that I'd give >preference to. > >How about the rest of you? > >Lisa Sinervo Mari Stewart Cornell University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 10:05:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QE5fIO005717 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:05:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QE5476011811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:05:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QE51KW017265; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:05:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from providenceday.org (treebeard.providenceday.org [66.193.73.82]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QE4xKW017237 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:05:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [66.193.73.85] (HELO providenceday.org) by providenceday.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.5) with ESMTP id 672560 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:04:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:06:01 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <001101c38412$fe876630$15c2adcb@michaela> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > I'll see if I can upload the odd images I have of a green and red > garment > that is actually being put on so you can see it's one garment. The > lacing is > loose so you can see it go from red to green. > > http://glittersweet.com/1411frescojacquerio.jpg > I have no idea what is going on with this image at all. That hat thing > looks > like something from the 20thC;) > > Do you have more of this work scanned? I would love to see it in context. Grace/Jessamyn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 10:06:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QE6cIO005723 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:06:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QE6776011900 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QE67KW017790; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net (razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QE65KW017774 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:06:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-56-173.jps.net ([209.165.56.173] helo=w7m1l6) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2tEN-0007BV-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:06:02 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c38437$06504f20$ad38a5d1@w7m1l6> From: "Stephen Bergdahl" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000401c383ab$1720d5e0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> Subject: Re: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:37:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: 08dba192340bde6e1a6ab3b9b70940f894f5150ab1c16ac0175e62059bacab528dbb5f92db0080b321a5fb2c5f8d7410350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Linda If you can get two I would be more than happy to take the other one off your hands, plus shipping, of course. I've wanted a copy of this book for years. Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich One thing you got to say about the Republicans, they don't give up easily. Impeach Clinton, steal Florida, redistrict Texas, recall Davis. You know what , these guys had better watch out or they're going to get slapped with the reputation of being extremely sore losers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Rice" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:22 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" > Thank You!!! I'm sure this is better than just writing to the general address that was on the > website. I *think* it was to the gift shop, but since I don't speak Danish, I'm not 100% sure! > I've wanted this book for years, and now I'm on a mission to get it, if I can. ;o> > > ::Linda:: > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Drea Leed > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:03 PM > To: Historical Costume > Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" > > Linda, > > I got my copy from the Danish museum. I emailed jonna.horning@natmus.dk > and asked for an invoice, which she sent, which I filled out and sent back > with the payment. When I bought it, it was around $50 (excluding > shipping.) > > Good luck, > > Drea > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 10:08:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QE8ZIO005729 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:08:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QE7t76012187 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:07:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QE7sKW018683; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:07:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QE7pKW018653 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:07:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be58.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.88]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 71EDF2629C3 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:07:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002b01c38437$99fd7c20$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: About "Danish Textiles" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:08:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Jessica. Laughs here. Thanks a lot. When it comes to vikings, Denmark has a very rich herritage, you are right. But when it comes to soulmates, in costume making, we are very few. At least with my interrest in 18th century fashion. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "jessica stier" To: Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 1:37 AM Subject: [h-cost] Re: About "Danish Textiles" > One of the wonderful things about Denmark, is that 99% of the population > speaks English. It's taught in the schools and is everywhere in the media. > You can be fairly certain that the receiver of your email will be able to > understand and respond in English. And if they can't, then the person who > sits in the office next door will most likely be able to. > > Denmark is such a fabulous country! I love the people, the food, the > scenery, the culture, the heritage and of course the fantastic embroidery > that comes from our friend Bjarne!!! I'm a walking travel brochure... > > Good luck with getting the book! > > :) jessica > > > > > >Thank You!!! I'm sure this is better than just writing to the general > >address that was on the > >website. I *think* it was to the gift shop, but since I don't speak Danish, > >I'm not 100% sure! > >I've wanted this book for years, and now I'm on a mission to get it, if I > >can. ;o> > > > >::Linda:: > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage > today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 10:14:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QEE2IO005740 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:14:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEDM76012914 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:13:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEDLKW021546; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:13:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEDJKW021515 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:13:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be58.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.88]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 1EDF648003D for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:13:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004501c38438$5c590a00$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001301c383e1$78d1c700$b334a5d1@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun time machine question Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:13:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Are you serious? My god, i would travel to Paris and work a week with Marie Antoinettes dressmaker Rose Bertin. I dont think i would work with her, just suck all out of her that i could!!! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 5:51 AM Subject: [h-cost] Fun time machine question I admit to pinching this from another list but it was too good to resist doing so. The question is: "if you could spend a week (we all know that a day just wouldn't be enough) with someone in the past or present to learn about the art of sewing/designing, etc. who would you pick?" This one is really tough for me. I know I would have loved to chat with Joseph Campbell or Marshall McCulan but sewing, I'm still thinking. I'm pretty interested at the moment in knowing how those 16th century laundresses kept their poking sticks clean enough to press those white linen ruffs, but no doubt someone else might come to mind that I'd give preference to. How about the rest of you? Lisa Sinervo www.thrednedlestrete.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 10:18:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QEIFIO005743 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:18:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEHW76013207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:17:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEHVKW023845; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:17:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEHTKW023832 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:17:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cindyabel (new-hslpharmacy.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) SMTP id JAA18355 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:17:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Fun time machine question Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:17:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <001301c383e1$78d1c700$b334a5d1@pavilion> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Well, one designer won't do. Worth, of course, and Callot Soeurs at least. Then a jump back into the time machine for a visit with Anne Boleyn, who apparently designed some of her clothes, and then a jump forward to at least pinch a scrap or the pattern for Elizabeth I's ears and eyes fabric and then a visit to the 1790's to where Heideloff's "Gallery of Fashion" was produced and published. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 10:38:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QEcHIO005785 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:38:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEbf76014718 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:37:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEbdKW006130; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:37:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEbaKW006050 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:37:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m112.in-tch.com [216.166.191.112]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8QEH8b23205 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:17:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F744FB4.77C6857C@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:39:48 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun time machine question References: <20030926091700.V97197-100000@shell.siscom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Ooooh! What she said! Well, with additional time for Her Majesty's silkwoman. And a side-trips to study Opus Anglicanum at its best, and to hang out with the artisans who created the Bayeaux Tapestry. And time in Ireland (Dublin)to study what women wore there during the years the Norse were living there (I'd love to know what happened when native styles, whatever they were, met Scandinavian influences.) I'm afraid I could no more choose one than I can eat just one potato chip. --sue Drea Leed wrote: > > For me: Walter Fyshe, the head tailor in Queen Elizabeth's wardrobe. > > Drea > > On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Lisa Sinervo wrote: > > > I admit to pinching this from another list but it was too good to resist doing so. > > > > The question is: "if you could spend a week (we all know that a day just wouldn't be enough) > > with someone in the past or present to learn about the art of sewing/designing, etc. who would you pick?" > > > > This one is really tough for me. I know I would have loved to chat with Joseph Campbell or Marshall McCulan but sewing, I'm still thinking. I'm pretty interested at the moment in knowing how those 16th century laundresses kept their poking sticks clean enough to press those white linen ruffs, but no doubt someone else might come to mind that I'd give preference to. > > > > How about the rest of you? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 10:46:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QEkSIO005809 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:46:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEjf76015341 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:45:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEjdKW011174; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:45:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QEjaKW011059 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:45:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/Ok8v2FY99qW/r2lDyK8IyjI=">; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:45:15 PDT Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JAZUT3A8; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:45:15 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:23:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question Message-ID: <20030926.074443.1432.3.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-15,19-40 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com It looks almost cartridge pleated to me. That alone would stiffen it somewhat. Arlys On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:13:56 -0700 (PDT) writes: > Hello list, > > My forte is Italian rennaisance dress. I love it. But one thing has > stumped me beyond belief and I am hoping someone out there can help > me. > > I was in the process of making a late rennaisance Italian dress like > this > one... > > http://www.culture.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=CHERCHER&FIELD_1=A UTR&VALUE_1=MORONI%20Giambattista&DOM=All&REL_SPECIFIC=1&IMAGE_ONLY=CHECK ED > > I had made the corset and had patterned the bodice already when I > attempted to re-create the ruffled edge of the chemise that shows at > the > top of the collar. I just could NOT get it to work!! It is not a > ruff > (which I *do* know how to make). It is a ruffled edge of the > chemise that > stands up and out of the collar. > > If anyone has tried this and has some pointers, I will gratefully > learn > from your experience because I love the look and would still like to > make > one some day.... > > TIA, > > Diana > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 10:53:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QErTIO005862 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:53:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEqo76015884 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:52:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEqnKW015773; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEqkKW015683 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:52:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m112.in-tch.com [216.166.191.112]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8QEWJb29874 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:32:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F745343.5DF921F8@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:54:59 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question References: <3F72F1DC.6070106@fenris.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Oooh, cool! I want to be able to do something similar someday, although I'm in the early stages yet--just learning the spinning end of it. Tell us more--what kind of threads are you using? What colors? What weaving pattern? All that cool stuff ;o) --sue, textile junkie Elizabeth Young wrote: > > > I am working on weaving a length of woolen fabric based on the info from > the Textiles book. I am using 3 colors of wool, and it is amazing how > subtle the patterening is. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 11:09:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QF9GIO005978 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:09:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEKq76013483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:20:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QEKoKW025772; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:20:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9404.mail.yahoo.com (web9404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QEKkKW025728 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:20:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030926142046.16261.qmail@web9404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:20:46 PDT Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:20:46 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <000401c38437$06504f20$ad38a5d1@w7m1l6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I wrote yesterday to the Danish museum--and this morning got a reply back --expressing regrets that the book was no longer in print:( At least they were very prompt! But I am very disappointed. Albra Stephen Bergdahl wrote: Linda If you can get two I would be more than happy to take the other one off your hands, plus shipping, of course. I've wanted a copy of this book for years. Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich One thing you got to say about the Republicans, they don't give up easily. Impeach Clinton, steal Florida, redistrict Texas, recall Davis. You know what , these guys had better watch out or they're going to get slapped with the reputation of being extremely sore losers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Rice" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:22 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" > Thank You!!! I'm sure this is better than just writing to the general address that was on the > website. I *think* it was to the gift shop, but since I don't speak Danish, I'm not 100% sure! > I've wanted this book for years, and now I'm on a mission to get it, if I can. ;o> > > ::Linda:: > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Drea Leed > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:03 PM > To: Historical Costume > Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" > > Linda, > > I got my copy from the Danish museum. I emailed jonna.horning@natmus.dk > and asked for an invoice, which she sent, which I filled out and sent back > with the payment. When I bought it, it was around $50 (excluding > shipping.) > > Good luck, > > Drea > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 11:21:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QFLEIO005987 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:21:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFJ576017953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:19:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFJ3Zr003448; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:19:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFJ0Zr003376 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:19:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net (217.newark-08rh15rt.nj.dial-access.att.net[12.89.174.217]) by mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id <2003092615185411300r2k5ne>; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:18:54 +0000 Message-ID: <3F7458DE.4030502@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:18:54 -0400 From: Justine Magill User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question References: <20030926.074443.1432.3.Cley@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Actually, have you considered the idea of smocking? I took a class at Pennsic on this, and one of the applications for smocking was for a stand up collar. That would give you both the stand up collar, with the ruffling, and is demonstrable in Italian garb, as artwork from Italy was the source of most of the teacher's demonstrations. The actual smocking stitches would be done on the inside of the garment, leaving only the pleats that you can find in documented various portraits on the outside. And done in a certain manner, the collar would be quite stiff and non flexible, leaving it well capable of standing upright on its own. Unfortunately, this is not my period, so I do not have pics available, but you ought to be able to find some examples to look at. Jenne Cynthia J Ley wrote: >It looks almost cartridge pleated to me. That alone would stiffen it >somewhat. > >Arlys > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 11:24:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QFOpIO005994 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:24:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFO176018402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:24:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFO0Zr007089; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:24:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9407.mail.yahoo.com (web9407.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.23]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QFNtZr007021 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:23:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030926152355.83213.qmail@web9407.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:23:55 PDT Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:23:55 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20030926.074443.1432.3.Cley@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I had great luck with running the fabric thru one of those pleaters before I stitched it down to the band. With a stiffened cord already pre-stitched to the edge --it looked great! Albra Cynthia J Ley wrote: It looks almost cartridge pleated to me. That alone would stiffen it somewhat. Arlys On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:13:56 -0700 (PDT) writes: > Hello list, > > My forte is Italian rennaisance dress. I love it. But one thing has > stumped me beyond belief and I am hoping someone out there can help > me. > > I was in the process of making a late rennaisance Italian dress like > this > one... > > http://www.culture.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=CHERCHER&FIELD_1=A UTR&VALUE_1=MORONI%20Giambattista&DOM=All&REL_SPECIFIC=1&IMAGE_ONLY=CHECK ED > > I had made the corset and had patterned the bodice already when I > attempted to re-create the ruffled edge of the chemise that shows at > the > top of the collar. I just could NOT get it to work!! It is not a > ruff > (which I *do* know how to make). It is a ruffled edge of the > chemise that > stands up and out of the collar. > > If anyone has tried this and has some pointers, I will gratefully > learn > from your experience because I love the look and would still like to > make > one some day.... > > TIA, > > Diana > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 11:37:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QFbgIO006016 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:37:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFaw76019484 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:36:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFauZr017106; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:36:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.surewest.net (smtp2.surewest.net [208.45.228.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QFaqZr016985 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:36:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 14205 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2003 15:36:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DD84JW21) (66.205.128.11) by smtp2.surewest.net with SMTP; 26 Sep 2003 15:36:44 -0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20030926083312.00ba26e0@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:36:34 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" In-Reply-To: <000401c38437$06504f20$ad38a5d1@w7m1l6> References: <000401c383ab$1720d5e0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2 SNWK2 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Stephen, At least you know you can borrow my copy on occasion, until you get your own, of course . Joan Jurancich At 10:37 PM 9/25/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Linda > >If you can get two I would be more than happy to take the other one off your >hands, plus shipping, of course. I've wanted a copy of this book for years. > >Stephen Bergdahl - Lord Vich > >One thing you got to say about the Republicans, they don't give up easily. >Impeach Clinton, steal Florida, redistrict Texas, recall Davis. You know >what , these guys had better watch out or they're going to get slapped with >the reputation of being extremely sore losers. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Linda Rice" >Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:22 PM >Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" > > > Thank You!!! I'm sure this is better than just writing to the general >address that was on the > > website. I *think* it was to the gift shop, but since I don't speak >Danish, I'm not 100% sure! > > I've wanted this book for years, and now I'm on a mission to get it, if I >can. ;o> > > > > ::Linda:: _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 11:51:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QFpoIO006215 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:51:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFp176020736 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:51:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFoxZr028371; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:50:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QFotZr028259 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:50:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m110.in-tch.com [216.166.191.110]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8QFUSb26256 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:30:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F7460E4.9E24DC2A@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:53:08 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923133349.00adcf98@mail.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Unless you're dealing with knitted stuff. Or really unusual treatments near the ankle or wrist. A lot of times, it's actually a pretty big pain in the behind to have to fix. I'm of average height (5'5"), but with very short arms and legs, so I'm proportioned all wonky. I've always had problems with hems and sleeves and such, but it's much worse now that I'm really, uhm, a woman of some physical stature, shall we say. Plus-sized manufacturers seem to assume we're all the height of your average NBA player. I put on a hooded sweatshirt (zip-front) to go to work the other day, and the sleeves extended several inches *past* the ends of my fingertips. --sue Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: > > > > same from Misses to Petite. The sleeve lengths of jackets are similarly no > > longer adjusted for the change in height. *sigh* When will they learn that > > not all of us have legs and arms that go on "forever"... > > Well... sleeves tend to be on the short side on me. But if you're aware of > the problem, sleeve length is one of the things that can be adjusted fairly > easily, as long as the shoulders fit right. Length of rise is also harder to > adjust than, say, inseam length on a pair of pants. I always have to modify > a pattern anyway before I go at it: that's what you get for being > short-waisted :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 12:14:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QGEhIO006796 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:14:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGDs76022707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:13:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGDpjA015939; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:13:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGDmjA015847 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:13:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip65.100-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.100.65]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E4026AAFE for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:13:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question Message-ID: <3F740346.8995.A002B80@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1157.12.233.32.69.1064553236.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> References: <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I had made the corset and had patterned the bodice already when I > attempted to re-create the ruffled edge of the chemise that shows at > the top of the collar. I just could NOT get it to work!! It is not a > ruff (which I *do* know how to make). It is a ruffled edge of the > chemise that stands up and out of the collar. It's probably made similar to the ruffs which within 20 years were often made as separate accessories but seem to be part of the shirt/chemise/half-shirt at this point. http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_ruffs.htm I've found that Laurellen's stacked pleat method usually turns out the way that your picture shows. It doesn't look like that if you cartridge pleat it as the pleats stand out differently so that you get more of the Dutch ruff look than the Italian look you want. You'll want to make it smaller than what you would for the ruff she shows, but it seems to work fairly well as long as you don't use a fabric which is too thick. It needs to be slightly stiff but finely woven in something lightweight. Handkerchief linen would work, but it is about the outside limit of heaviness. A battiste might work if your edge treatment gives it a little more stiffness (such as a metal thread embroidery edge or a tightly rolled edge.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 12:22:23 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QGMNIO006986 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:22:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGLM76023314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:21:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGLKjA021720; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:21:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGLIjA021697 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:21:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cindyabel (new-hslpharmacy.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) SMTP id LAA08203 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:21:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:21:17 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20030926083312.00ba26e0@pop.surewest.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Subject: [h-cost] The Doll Book X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com For those looking for a book to make historic cloth dolls and costumes(not 100% accurate in cut, but better than most of the stuff out there), try getting Estelle Ansley Worrell "The Doll Book" Princeton, NJ : D Van Nostrand Co, c1966 via interlibrary loan. This is great, especially for a child and includes directions for sizing up the patterns for male and female adult and child dolls and making wigs. The patterns cover the 1660's through the end of the 1800's. I'm going to use this to dress some young girl odd-sized Salvation Army dolls where no commercial patterns really fit. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 12:22:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QGMlIO007001 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:22:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGLh76023340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:21:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGLgjA022029; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:21:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGLNjA021760 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:21:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip65.100-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.100.65]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AAF6D777 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:21:21 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:21:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun time machine question Message-ID: <3F74050F.8624.A07246A@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <001301c383e1$78d1c700$b334a5d1@pavilion> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > The question is: "if you could spend a week (we all know that a day > just wouldn't be enough) with someone in the past or present to learn > about the art of sewing/designing, etc. who would you pick?" I thought about this one for years and I always come up with the same thing: I want to be able to watch a real 16thC English tailor/dressmaker (c1525-40). Not someone who just does them for the Crown but someone who does them for several of the ladies in waiting and gentlemen at court. But, from what I learned when I spent a month in London studying, I don't just want a week. I want at least a couple of months! And, being greedy in terms of costuming, I want to go visit some of the other costume article artisans of the time too (the lacemakers, the chemise makers, the embroiderers, etc....) And on another "trip" I'd like to do the same in France for about 1150. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 12:32:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QGWPIO007180 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:32:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGVc76024211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:31:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGVbjA000679; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:31:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGVYjA000653 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:31:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip65.100-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.100.65]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1022A6A8E3 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:27:17 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:31:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Average human size? Message-ID: <3F740773.16741.A1078E7@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <000001c3835d$980a12a0$536453d8@Kass> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Another out-loud thought: so many people have to alter their patterns > drastically. The pattern companies don't know this; they've never > asked me how much I have to alter my patterns to get them to fit. > Patternmakers know that some of these alterations are happening > because they made such a big deal, especially when they first came > out, about multiple sizes on one pattern. They told us how easy it was > to alter from one size to the next. Most patterns are produced this > way, and not just because it's cheaper for them. Except that in the past (which thankfully *is* in the past), they only had one size per envelope. And they were still just as "in the dark" in terms of what real people wore. But then, in the past sewing was a required course of study in most high school and junior highs. Altering a pattern was taught so people still wouldn't have been caught out without being able to use a pattern which didn't fit like a modle. > Certainly, but if they don't realize how much some people > have to change their patterns, they'll never change their sizing. Not necessarily. They might know that the patterns have to be changed but figure that as long as people can change their own, why should they change. What I'd like to see is patterns for very large men and women. *Nice* patterns for very large people. They have so much trouble finding inexpensive clothes they can wear (which don't make them look like they are wearing a sack) and yet they don't have patterns that fit either. And because of their size, they can't be changed easily from even the biggest of the commercial sizes. It's much easier to cut down something for a small person than it is to make it larger. (That's why they have whole books devoted to pattern making for large people. However, it takes someone like me who can make a pattern from scratch to really be able to do this. Not something which would work for the average home sewer.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 12:40:39 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QGedIO007237 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:40:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGdt76024966 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:39:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGdsjA007531; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:39:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGdljA007410 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:39:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip65.100-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.100.65]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465236D64C for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:39:45 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:39:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question Message-ID: <3F740958.6494.A17E144@localhost> Priority: normal References: <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > In a couple of Crivelli's other saint pictures -- I think one of the > Virgin and one of St. Catherine, but I'd have to look -- these more > "proper" women are wearing the same style of front closure, but done > up all the way, in a straight line. You can get an idea of what it looks like laced up from the paintings called "Triumph of Minerva" and "Triumph of Venus". They were done in the same time period in the same area as the Crivellis. You can also see what the dresses look like without all the heavy gold work on the bodice. > > For the "clasps," I found jewelry findings at a craft store of the > right shape that had three holes on one side and one hole on the > other. I turned them sideways and sewed the three holes to the fabric, > and pointed the single hole to the center. I then laced up the dress > through the holes. In other words, we used them as lacing mounts, not > clasps per se. I think a good close-up on at least some of the > Crivellis show that these are laced, not individually fastened the > way, say, cloak clasps might be. But I'd have to look at the sources > again, and I don't have the Crivelli book. I've done a couple of these (laced, although I get the look by just partial lacing) and what I've used (before I had some custom cast ones) was the lacing side only of Scandinavian sweater hooks. I was living in Seattle at the time and they have quite a large Scandinavian area (called Ballard) which had a very handy shop with all sorts of things of this sort. (They had *many* types. I think there were about 20 to choose from. But they didn't really like it when I only wanted the lace side without the hook side.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 12:55:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QGt8IO007336 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:55:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGsP76026385 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:54:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGsKjA019521; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:54:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QGsFjA019414 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:54:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-67.74.247.197.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([67.74.247.197] helo=4gxif) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A2vrC-0008N4-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:54:14 -0400 Message-ID: <013f01c3844e$d1f648c0$c5f74a43@4gxif> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030923133349.00adcf98@mail.earthlink.net> <3F7460E4.9E24DC2A@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: Average human size? Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:54:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Part of the problem with sleeve lengths, etc on plus-size clothing is the grading- the good clothes do a real fit for an 18 or 20 and grade up or down from there. The ones that take the easy way out are grading up from an 8, in every direction. This explains the sleeves to the knees, the armholes down to the waist, and the shoulder seams at the elbows. But for some reason, on the same garment, they still manage to short the over all length. Go figure. -Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 13:16:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QHGOIO007464 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:16:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QHEA76028100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:14:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QHE8u1006286; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:14:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QHE3u1006227 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:14:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 4697 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2003 17:14:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail2.inreach.com) (209.142.2.51) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 26 Sep 2003 17:14:02 -0000 Received: from 162.119.64.111 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com) by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46276.162.119.64.111.1064596442.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question From: To: In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030926091841.00b9eac8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> References: <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> <002001c38394$376d8a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.1.1.2.20030926091841.00b9eac8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: SquirrelMail (version 1.2.9) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thanks to everyone for their responses! To Karen (seamstrix) I am trying for a ruffled edge that is sewn to the collar, not a separate ruff like Winter & Savoy. > I've had some success with these, the trick I have found is don't think > ruffle (it implies randomness) think pleating. > The way I have done it in the past is with a band at the top of the > chemise to catch the body and draw it into the neckline. Then adding a > pleated band of overlapping box pleats, ironed in at the bottom 1/4" > to allow easier pleating, but not at the top. This gives the soft > double row of ruffles. Sewn on by hand, of course. I think that the stacked box pleats is the best method for me. I suspect it also depends on the fabric for the chemise. Thanks for the idea and also to the lady who pointed me to Laurellen's website. She is a fabulous costumer who I respect immensely and the pictures really help. Diana _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 14:26:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QIQnIO007698 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:26:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QIPF76003754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:25:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QIOxvA004505; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:25:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav29.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.86]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QIOjvA004128 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:24:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:24:40 -0700 Received: from 24.200.216.140 by bay9-dav29.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:24:39 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.200.216.140] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <002001c38394$376d8a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <20030925194956.64394.qmail@web80512.mail.yahoo.com> <1157.12.233.32.69.1064553236.squirrel@webmail.inreach.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:25:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Sep 2003 18:24:40.0005 (UTC) FILETIME=[72D66750:01C3845B] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: > > I was in the process of making a late rennaisance Italian dress like this > one... > http://www.culture.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=CHERCHER&FIELD_1=AUTR&VALUE_1=MORONI%20Giambattista&DOM=All&REL_SPECIFIC=1&IMAGE_ONLY=CHECKED > I had made the corset and had patterned the bodice already when I > attempted to re-create the ruffled edge of the chemise that shows at the > top of the collar. I just could NOT get it to work!! It is not a ruff > (which I *do* know how to make). It is a ruffled edge of the chemise that > stands up and out of the collar. Hmm, I don't have pointers, but it is probably a high necked smock. Or it might be a partlet. You can see a similar dress worn open here http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary2002/images/pace.jpg And another one here, but I believe a slightly earlier style http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/pics/158x_1.shtml I like that style too. One day I'll tackle it, but I have other things to do before that :-) Good luck! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 14:30:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QIUgIO007706 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:30:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QITp76004182 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:29:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QIRxvA007330; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:28:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14003.mail.yahoo.com (web14003.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.94]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QIQ8vA005767 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:26:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030926182607.55129.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14003.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:26:07 BST Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:26:07 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Holbein X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/holbein/gisze.jpg This is the first time I've run across this particular Holbein. The garment seems very simple although of rich materials. ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 14:56:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QIuGIO007728 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:56:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QItQ76006347 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:55:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QItHJB000211; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:55:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QIsavA029540 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:54:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com ([129.8.206.215]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.18 (built Jul 28 2003)) with ESMTP id <0HLU00DLJ4IZQT@shadow.csufresno.edu> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:56:01 -0700 From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Isabel de Valois, and her pearls In-reply-to: <003a01c3841a$95644b20$2a018151@dan> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 To: Historical Costume Message-id: <5.2.1.1.0.20030926115524.02f6b158@64.87.54.245> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 11:40 AM 9/26/2003 +0100, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Deredere's posts on this sent me back to my books; there is a very >high-res scan of Coello's portrait at page 19 of the AMNH book >'Pearls: A Natural History' which clearly shows that everything on the >fabric of her skirt and bodice is made up of pearls. Rather a lot of >them... > >best wishes >Stevie Thanks for the heads up on that. I think I shall see if I can find this book. Kimiko Kimiko Small Costumer, Fiber Artist, Web Designer, Wife and Mother kimiko@kimiko1.com; http://www.kimiko1.com "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell Graphic Intern at Costume Gallery http://www.costumegallery.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 15:10:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QJA5IO007765 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:10:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJ7276007324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:07:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJ70JB009569; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:07:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJ6vJB009430 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:06:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200309261906.h8QJ6vJB009430@net.indra.com> Received: from mtiwebc08 (mtiwebc08.worldnet.att.net[204.127.135.29]) by mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id <2003092619065111300r4hkte>; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:06:51 +0000 Received: from [63.240.155.172] by mtiwebc08; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:06:48 +0000 From: ladysarafina@att.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another Italian question Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:06:48 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Aug 25 2003) X-Authenticated-Sender: aHN3YXNoaW5ndG9uQGF0dC5uZXQ= X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Diana, Any sort of pleating or gathering at the neckline should give you the desired effect. My recommendations would be cartridge pleating, box pleating, or knife pleating. Adding a little starch to the ruffle would help also. Harlie Des Roches -- Lady Sarafina Sinclair, CW, APF http://ladysarafina.home.att.net > Hello list, > > My forte is Italian rennaisance dress. I love it. But one thing has > stumped me beyond belief and I am hoping someone out there can help me. > > I was in the process of making a late rennaisance Italian dress like this > one... > > http://www.culture.fr/public/mistral/joconde_fr?ACTION=CHERCHER&FIELD_1=AUTR&VAL > UE_1=MORONI%20Giambattista&DOM=All&REL_SPECIFIC=1&IMAGE_ONLY=CHECKED > > I had made the corset and had patterned the bodice already when I > attempted to re-create the ruffled edge of the chemise that shows at the > top of the collar. I just could NOT get it to work!! It is not a ruff > (which I *do* know how to make). It is a ruffled edge of the chemise that > stands up and out of the collar. > > If anyone has tried this and has some pointers, I will gratefully learn > from your experience because I love the look and would still like to make > one some day.... > > TIA, > > Diana > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 15:36:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QJaAIO007799 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:36:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJYs76009445 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:34:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJYlLA029372; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:34:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lakemtao04.cox.net (lakemtao04.cox.net [68.1.17.241]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJYcLA029163 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:34:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from VMAAHQ ([68.96.201.18]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20030926193434.RKZI29227.lakemtao04.cox.net@VMAAHQ> for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:34:34 -0400 From: "Linda Rice" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:34:18 -0400 Message-ID: <002501c38465$305906d0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <000401c38437$06504f20$ad38a5d1@w7m1l6> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sorry Stephen, we are both out of luck. I got a reply back from the museum this morning simply saying that the book is no longer in print. I'm guessing that they have sold out their remaining stock as well. I have a funny feeling that this book is going to turn into another "From Viking to Crusader", which is darned near impossible to find and bloody expensive when you do. Arrgh! Robin, can you pull some strings with your buddies at Boydell and see if they would want to republish this excellent textile book? ::Linda:: -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Stephen Bergdahl Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 1:38 AM Linda- If you can get two I would be more than happy to take the other one off your hands, plus shipping, of course. I've wanted a copy of this book for years. -Stephen Bergdahl _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 15:36:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QJadIO007802 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:36:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJa676009552 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:36:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJa5LA000606; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:36:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14004.mail.yahoo.com (web14004.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.120]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QJZdLA000181 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:35:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030926193538.51435.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14004.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:35:38 BST Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:35:38 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Sanchez-Coello question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com http://www.bowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/image.php3?Name=Portrait+of+Catherine+of+Austria&image=founders-b-m-5.jpg Is this design woven into the fabric, embroidered or a woven trim applied afterwards? ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? 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Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 15:50:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QJo6IO007830 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:50:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJnJ76010669 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:49:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJnHLA010901; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:49:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net (lakemtao02.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJnELA010819 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:49:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from VMAAHQ ([68.96.201.18]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20030926194907.OJNB10677.lakemtao02.cox.net@VMAAHQ> for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:49:07 -0400 From: "Linda Rice" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Fun time machine question Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:48:53 -0400 Message-ID: <002601c38467$3aa49b70$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <3F744FB4.77C6857C@in-tch.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8QJnELA010819 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Am I the only one who read this subject line and thought "Funtime Machine question? What's that?" ;o> Like everyone else, I find it impossible to choose only one, but I'd be just as interested to know how they wove such wonderful textiles, as well as how they constructed the clothes. My main interests are Viking through to HYW, so anything going on then is good with me. And, if you wanted to keep your poking stick clean, couldn't you use a pot of boiling water to heat the tool in? Flick off the excess water and use the rod for forming the ruff. I have no idea if this is what they did, but if I had to try to do it today with only period methods, I'd at least give this a shot! ::Linda:: > On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Lisa Sinervo wrote: > > > I admit to pinching this from another list but it was too good to resist doing so. > > > > The question is: "if you could spend a week (we all know that a day just wouldn't be enough) > > with someone in the past or present to learn about the art of sewing/designing, etc. who would you pick?" > > > > This one is really tough for me. I know I would have loved to chat with Joseph Campbell or Marshall McCulan but sewing, I'm still thinking. I'm pretty interested at the moment in knowing how those 16th century laundresses kept their poking sticks clean enough to press those white linen ruffs, but no doubt someone else might come to mind that I'd give preference to. > > > > How about the rest of you? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 15:50:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QJoLIO007833 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:50:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJnX76010710 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:49:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJnXLA011110; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:49:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJnVLA011091 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip87.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.87]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C376AA23 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:49:29 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:49:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Holbein Message-ID: <3F7435D5.7932.AC5A8A1@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030926182607.55129.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/holbein/gisze.jpg > > > This is the first time I've run across this particular > Holbein. The garment seems very simple although of > rich materials. I love this painting. It's really fun to get close looks at all the stuff in the background. I like the sleeves too. They are very similar to the pattern from the Milanese Tailor's album. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 15:53:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QJrXIO007838 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:53:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJqv76010985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:52:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJqqLA013953; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:52:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QJqnLA013883 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip87.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.87]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C966AA23 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:52:48 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:52:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sanchez-Coello question Message-ID: <3F74369A.19277.AC8AB91@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20030926193538.51435.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > http://www.bowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/image.php3?Name=Portrait+of+ > Catherine+of+Austria&image=founders-b-m-5.jpg > > Is this design woven into the fabric, embroidered or a > woven trim applied afterwards? It looks like a surface treatment to me. It is not woven that way. It looks more like an embroidered or woven trim. I want her carcanet! Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 16:15:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QKFWIO007942 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:15:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKEe76012779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:14:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKEbVt001364; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:14:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14005.mail.yahoo.com (web14005.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.121]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QKEYVt001323 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:14:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030926201434.23117.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14005.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:14:34 BST Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:14:34 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] Green Dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?500+0+0 This is an interesting portrait by Girolamo di Benvenuto. I wish I could get a better look at the pattern of the sleeve fabric. ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 16:17:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QKHgIO007970 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:17:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKGw76012962 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:16:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKGvVt003226; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:16:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14002.mail.yahoo.com (web14002.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QKGrVt003176 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:16:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030926201653.87428.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:16:53 BST Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:16:53 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] Holbein To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F7435D5.7932.AC5A8A1@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Then I wonder if this was a typical garment for a German merchant? --- kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > > > http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/holbein/gisze.jpg > > I love this painting. It's really fun to get close > looks at all the > stuff in the background. > > I like the sleeves too. They are very similar to the > pattern from the > Milanese Tailor's album. > > Kat > > ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 16:17:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QKHjIO007973 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:17:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKH976012991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:17:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKH9Vt003372; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:17:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKH7Vt003340 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:17:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18209 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:39:35 -0500 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:39:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] About "Danish Textiles" In-Reply-To: <002501c38465$305906d0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Fri, 26 Sep 2003, Linda Rice wrote: > Robin, can you pull some strings with your buddies at Boydell and see > if they would want to republish this excellent textile book? Write them and ask them -- Boydell has a website, and I bet there's a contact person listed. They're very much interested in reprinting important costume/textile books. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 16:55:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QKtJIO008145 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:55:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKsa76016588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:54:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKsYGU004040; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:54:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QKsUGU003867 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:54:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 311716 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:54:24 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:58:42 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sanchez-Coello question From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3F74369A.19277.AC8AB91@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On 9/26/03 12:52 PM, "kat@grendal.rain.com" wrote: > >> http://www.bowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/image.php3?Name=Portrait+of+ >> Catherine+of+Austria&image=founders-b-m-5.jpg >> >> Is this design woven into the fabric, embroidered or a >> woven trim applied afterwards? > > It looks like a surface treatment to me. It is not woven that way. It > looks more like an embroidered or woven trim. > It looks like trim added to either side of slashes on a surcoat with the slashed closed by the intricate metallic frogs and pumpkin-shaped buttons. > I want her carcanet! > I'd love it too. It's really lovely. > Kat > > LynnD _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 17:03:34 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QL3YIO008163 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:03:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QL2l76018215 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:02:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QL2kCq011372; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:02:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14002.mail.yahoo.com (web14002.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QL2eCq011285 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:02:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030926210240.95471.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:02:40 BST Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:02:40 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 Subject: [h-cost] Another nice dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com http://www.comune.roma.it/museicapitolini/pinacoteca/visita/sala3_savoldo.htm This dress also appears green on the outer dress. Does anyone know if it really is? ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 17:29:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QLTEIO008235 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:29:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QLSC76022887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:28:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QLRwCq003010; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:28:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14001.mail.yahoo.com (web14001.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.92]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8QLRGCq002270 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:27:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030926212714.34472.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.242.152.154] by web14001.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:27:14 BST Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:27:14 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [h-cost] same model and dress? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/largeImage?workNumber=NG2493&collectionSection=work then look at http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pinfo?Object=41318+0+none is this the same dress and same model? This apparently are allegorical works. ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 17:33:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QLXVIO008247 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:33:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QLWr76023907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:32:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QLWqCq007914; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:32:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QLWiCq007812 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:32:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bridgette.cornell.edu (syr-24-58-121-78.twcny.rr.com [24.58.121.78])h8QLWgVp023852 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030926172933.00a23980@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:32:39 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: Mari Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sanchez-Coello question In-Reply-To: <20030926193538.51435.qmail@web14004.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com From what I can see, and the little that I know of the time... I would say applied strapwork, or passamenterie (sp?) Bridgette >http://www.bowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/image.php3?Name=Portrait+of+Catherine+of+Austria&image=founders-b-m-5.jpg > >Is this design woven into the fabric, embroidered or a >woven trim applied afterwards? Mari Stewart, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 17:58:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QLwpIO008305 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:58:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QLr776027607 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:53:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QLr4Cq024702; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:53:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QLr1Cq024643 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:53:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-41-158.jps.net ([209.165.41.158] helo=pavilion) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A30WK-0003Td-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:53:01 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c38478$fc524d60$9e29a5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:56:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Philadelphia Museum of Art-Schiaparelli Exhibit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8QLwpIO008305 Here's a designer I would have enjoyed meeting and a new exhibit on her work, but still not my top pick. I'm still thinking! http://www.cnn.com/2003/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/09/26/shocking.schiaparelli.ap/index.html Lisa _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 18:22:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QMMeIO008339 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:22:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QMLZ76001154 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:21:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QMLXSR015754; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:21:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QMLUSR015717 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:21:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net ([10.116.0.122]) by scanmail2.cableone.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:17:51 -0700 Received: from scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122] by scanmail2.cableone.net (SMTPD32-7.04) id AB0C7FB00B0; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:17:51 -0700 Received: from kimathlon (24-117-44-29.cpe.cableone.net [24.117.44.29]) by mail.cableone.net with SMTP (MailShield v2.04 - WIN32 Jul 17 2001 17:12:42); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:17:51 -0600 From: "Kim Baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] The Doll Book Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:21:41 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c3847c$904f19a0$0201a8c0@kimathlon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-SMTP-HELO: kimathlon X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: kbaird@cableone.net X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: 24-117-44-29.cpe.cableone.net [24.117.44.29] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I love this book! I first got it from the library in 1969. A few years ago I did find a copy to buy--can't remember if it's back in print, or if I found a used one. It really started me on the road to historic costuming. Kim -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Cindy Abel Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 11:21 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] The Doll Book For those looking for a book to make historic cloth dolls and costumes(not 100% accurate in cut, but better than most of the stuff out there), try getting Estelle Ansley Worrell "The Doll Book" Princeton, NJ : D Van Nostrand Co, c1966 via interlibrary loan. This is great, especially for a child and includes directions for sizing up the patterns for male and female adult and child dolls and making wigs. The patterns cover the 1660's through the end of the 1800's. I'm going to use this to dress some young girl odd-sized Salvation Army dolls where no commercial patterns really fit. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 18:45:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QMj3IO008381 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:45:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QMiQ76003161 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:44:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QMi8SR000625; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:44:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QMi3SR000501 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:44:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from laptop.ntlworld.com ([80.5.59.86]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com ESMTP <20030926223739.YBNN22584.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@laptop.ntlworld.com> for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:37:39 +0100 Message-Id: <6.0.0.14.0.20030926233540.022302e8@pop.ntlworld.com> X-Sender: lynneconnolly@pop.ntlworld.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.14 (Beta) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:37:24 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Lynne Connolly Subject: Re: [h-cost] Holbein In-Reply-To: <20030926182607.55129.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-56725BB8; boundary="=======571D68B1=======" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com --=======571D68B1======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-56725BB8; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 19:26 26/09/2003 Catalina Sanabria Rosado said >http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/holbein/gisze.jpg > > >This is the first time I've run across this particular >Holbein. The garment seems very simple although of >rich materials. This is one of Holbein's portraits of the merchants of the Hanseatic League, wealthy merchants living in London. They turned to Holbein as a fellow German and a Protestant. Everything in the painting means something, mostly connected with the trade of the sitter, but look for a memento mori. He usually dropped one in (most notably in "The Ambassadors") Lynne Connolly, GSOLFOT Award winning Historical Romance author. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lynneconnolly/ The Richard and Rose books from Novelbooks Inc. YORKSHIRE, DEVONSHIRE and now VENICE. VANESSA from Awe-Struck --=======571D68B1======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --=======571D68B1=======-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 19:08:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8QN8tIO008437 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:08:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QN8L76004785 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:08:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QN8KvH014877; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:08:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8QN8GvH014781 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:08:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fenris.net (12-246-237-231.client.attbi.com[12.246.237.231]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2003092623081101500anrh9e>; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:08:11 +0000 Message-ID: <3F74C6DB.9080600@fenris.net> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 16:08:11 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: weaving, was Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie question References: <3F72F1DC.6070106@fenris.net> <3F745343.5DF921F8@in-tch.com> In-Reply-To: <3F745343.5DF921F8@in-tch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Weeelllll, I am using jager-spun mainline 2/20 from halycon yarn. 24 ends per inch and I am getting an average of 28 picks per inch. The warp is alternating white and medium warm brown and the weft is a darker brown. It makes this interesting mottled effect. I am using a tabby weave. So - let's see if I can remember exactly what I'm doing.... Uh. 3 picks of regular old tabby and then 2 picks of tabby where the weft goes over two and under two. So the mottled effect is broken up by textured stripes. I had intended to do a twill, but the idea of having even more warp threads to deal with was just too much. So I changed my mind to tabby. I had also intended to use the same brown from the warp for the weft, but wound a quill of the wrong kind. So - this is now 'based loosely' on some random stuff in the MOL book. All this is on my modern 4 shaft jack loom, with 2 threads through every dent of my 12 dent reed. Assuming that I actually finish the 6 yard warp, I expect to make a hood out of this. liz young Sue Clemenger wrote: >Oooh, cool! >I want to be able to do something similar someday, although I'm in the >early stages yet--just learning the spinning end of it. >Tell us more--what kind of threads are you using? What colors? What >weaving pattern? All that cool stuff ;o) >--sue, textile junkie > >Elizabeth Young wrote: > > >>I am working on weaving a length of woolen fabric based on the info from >>the Textiles book. I am using 3 colors of wool, and it is amazing how >>subtle the patterening is. >> >> _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 20:16:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R0G9IO008580 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:16:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R0FR76008414 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:15:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R0FP8p018472; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:15:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cmsrelay02.mx.net (cmsrelay02.mx.net [165.212.11.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8R0FL8p018392 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:15:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from uadvg137.cms.usa.net (165.212.11.137) by cmsoutbound.mx.net with SMTP; 27 Sep 2003 00:15:16 -0000 Received: from uwdvg013.cms.usa.net [165.212.8.13] by uadvg137.cms.usa.net (ASMTP/) via mtad (C8.MAIN.3.11E) with ESMTP id 940HiAaPo0316M37; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:15:14 GMT X-USANET-Auth: 165.212.8.13 AUTO younganne@usa.net uwdvg013.cms.usa.net Received: from 206.163.135.253 [206.163.135.253] by uwdvg013.cms.usa.net (USANET web-mailer CM.0402.6.08); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:15:13 -0000 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:15:13 -0700 From: Shea Young To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [[h-cost] Fun time machine question] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (CM.0402.6.08) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <879HiAaPN8400S13.1064621713@uwdvg013.cms.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8R0FL8p018392 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Well, this one brought me out of hiding! If I must choose only one, then it would be a trip to Italy and the home of Mariano Fortuny. He grew up surrounded by the Rennaisance clothing and textiles his mother and father collected. He created furnitute, wall hangings, curtains, rugs, clothing for the theatre and film industry and then rediscovered how to create the beautiful velvets and brocades of the Rennaisance, not to mention the pleated gowns with glass beads that were so popular with Isadora Duncan and Elenora Duse. If I could just get into his head for a short time and capture his curiousity and ability to create beautiful things I would die a very happy woman! Check out http://www.fortuny.com/index1.html Thanks for the great question Lisa! Back to Lurkdom, Shea "Lisa Sinervo" wrote: > I admit to pinching this from another list but it was too good to resist doing so. > > The question is: "if you could spend a week (we all know that a day just wouldn't be enough) > with someone in the past or present to learn about the art of sewing/designing, etc. who would you pick?" > > This one is really tough for me. I know I would have loved to chat with Joseph Campbell or Marshall McCulan but sewing, I'm still thinking. I'm pretty interested at the moment in knowing how those 16th century laundresses kept their poking sticks clean enough to press those white linen ruffs, but no doubt someone else might come to mind that I'd give preference to. > > How about the rest of you? > > Lisa Sinervo > www.thrednedlestrete.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Shea Young ~ ~ ~ ~ "As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. JUMP! It is not as wide as you think." ~ Joesph Campbell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 22:20:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R2KwIO008737 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:20:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R2KF76013702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:20:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R2KAp8010175; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:20:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R2K7p8010140 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:20:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.110] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id A2CF6B0064; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:15:43 -0400 Message-ID: <002b01c3849e$714125e0$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net><4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com><200309242120.45611.cathy@thyrsus.com> <006601c38345$c9e47300$52010150@Imedia5043> Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:24:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I gather that there are a lot of you out there that came to HCostume after the mid 1960s. You cannot imagine what was commonly available at that time re research or how-to for costuming that was in any way connected with History. I was thrust into a theater venue that sent me to the Art History Dept for real pictures of designs from the past and the likes of Wilcox, Barton, Davenport,Kohler, Cassin and etc, were Lights! Peacock, who gained a space on my shelf rather late, presented an incorporation of ideas and designs that could communicate with my customers if only for the line change in fashion development. I don't draw awfully well myself, but the primitive work done by these people from the past at least kept the idea of HCostume alive until the learned efforts by Arnold, Hunniset, and all the other costume history people of lesser renown were able to do and present their studies for the edification of us all. Would that each of us could add even one 'Inch" to the vast area of our World. Kathleen ---- Original Message ----- From: "Dawn Wood" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:17 AM Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books > do bear in mind when complaining about the Peacock book that it was written > in the seventies which accounts for the fashion drawing style by a costume > designer not a historian for the same market and there wasn't much around > then reference wise for grown ups. > I worked with John on several accessions and he was the first to admit it > wasn't the best book but what was wanted at the time. I don't own it btw for > just those reasons > > I think we can say the same about many of the other 'bad ones around today. > The kohler book for instance is useful because many garments in there don't > survive any more. Cassin's osprey nelsons navy book is also rather useful > using it atm > > My first book which got me hooked when I was 7 from the local library was a > costume timeline book which I still adore. if only for nostalgia reasons > > My last a 1911 tailoring magazine for the chauffeurs uniform pattern draft > as I kept getting enquiries for one. There have been rather a lot in between > and still not enough but thankfully they are tax deductible > > Dawn > > > > Ages Of Elegance makers of historical clothing, uniforms and bridalwear > http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6717 > > > >I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in > > > >person. > > > Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other > > > votes? > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 22:40:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R2e2IO008778 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:40:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R2dP76014463 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R2dOp8017570; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:39:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R2dKp8017498 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:39:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.110] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id A751AEF70076; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:34:57 -0400 Message-ID: <004801c384a1$2126d520$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] The Doll Book Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:43:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com This was also an early costume book for me. At least she had the general line and pattern right on how to get the right look. I have also found the "Amanda" series (Texas-Tec Press) to be a genuine help for 19th C challenges. Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: [h-cost] The Doll Book > For those looking for a book to make historic cloth dolls and costumes(not > 100% accurate in cut, but better than most of the stuff out there), try > getting Estelle Ansley Worrell "The Doll Book" Princeton, NJ : D Van > Nostrand Co, c1966 via interlibrary loan. This is great, especially for a > child and includes directions for sizing up the patterns for male and female > adult and child dolls and making wigs. The patterns cover the 1660's through > the end of the 1800's. I'm going to use this to dress some young girl > odd-sized Salvation Army dolls where no commercial patterns really fit. > > Cindy Abel > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 23:07:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R37AIO008820 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:07:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R36O76015432 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:06:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R36MGC027621; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:06:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (sea1-f43.sea1.hotmail.com [207.68.163.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R36JGC027523 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:06:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:06:14 -0700 Received: from 68.47.13.151 by sea1fd.sea1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 03:06:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [68.47.13.151] X-Originating-Email: [dminmin@hotmail.com] From: "deborah minyard" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 03:06:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Sep 2003 03:06:14.0606 (UTC) FILETIME=[4FDF8EE0:01C384A4] Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 609 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > >It looks almost cartridge pleated to me. That alone would stiffen it >somewhat. > >Arlys > > How about smocked? they're earlier ones with that edge that may have been smocked. Maddalena _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC. Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 23:22:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R3MAIO008857 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:22:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R3LK76016004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:21:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R3LKGC003340; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:21:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R3L2GC003226 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:21:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8R3L1Fp002416 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.196.246] (tnt-1-54.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.246]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R3KKJa002013 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:31:09 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 10:06 AM -0700 9/26/03, Grace Morris wrote: >>I'll see if I can upload the odd images I have of a green and red garment >>that is actually being put on so you can see it's one garment. The lacing is >>loose so you can see it go from red to green. >> >>http://glittersweet.com/1411frescojacquerio.jpg >>I have no idea what is going on with this image at all. That hat thing looks >>like something from the 20thC;) >> >Do you have more of this work scanned? I would love to see it in context. What's more, knowing what genre the work is depicting might help in figuring out what's going on with the clothing. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 23:22:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R3MEIO008860 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:22:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R3L376015984 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:21:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R3L1GC003225; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:21:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R3KwGC003210 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:20:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8R3KvFp002322 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.196.246] (tnt-1-54.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.246]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R3KKJY002013 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:26:41 -0700 To: "Historical Costume" From: Heather Rose Jones Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: [h-cost] tv ad eye-candy X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Has anyone else (I guess this would be USA only) been admiring the HP image-enhancement-services ads sporting what I take to be an early 17th c. Dutch painting come to life? (I'm embarrassed to confess that I don't recognize the painting/painter, but I'm reasonably confident about the time/place.) It's the one with the young boy running through the streets, if that twigs anyone's memory. It's not my era to be good on specifics, but as a costume generalist, I was quite impressed with the clothing ... and there was a good deal of it. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Sep 26 23:37:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R3bMIO008871 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:37:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R3a676016601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:36:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R3a5GC008839; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:36:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R3ZwGD008801 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:35:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8R3a9N2001596 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:36:18 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8R3a4WE001594 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:36:04 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:36:03 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> <006601c38345$c9e47300$52010150@Imedia5043> <002b01c3849e$714125e0$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> In-Reply-To: <002b01c3849e$714125e0$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309262336.03599.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Friday 26 September 2003 10:24 pm, Lloyd Mitchell wrote: > I gather that there are a lot of you out there that came to HCostume after > the mid 1960s. Why, yes. I can't speak for others, but I myself was 10 in 1969; my first forays into the history of costume began in the mid 1970s. > You cannot imagine what was commonly available at that time > re research or how-to for costuming that was in any way connected with > History. I was thrust into a theater venue that sent me to the Art History > Dept for real pictures of designs from the past and the likes of Wilcox, > Barton, Davenport,Kohler, Cassin and etc, were Lights! You have my sympathy, at least. (Though I personally think there is good to be found in Barton, Kohler, and Davenport, and happen to have copies of Barton and Kohler in my library). > Peacock, who gained > a space on my shelf rather late, presented an incorporation of ideas and > designs that could communicate with my customers if only for the line > change in fashion development. I don't draw awfully well myself, but the > primitive work done by these people from the past at least kept the idea of > HCostume alive until the learned efforts by Arnold, Hunniset, and all the > other costume history people of lesser renown were able to do and present > their studies for the edification of us all. Would that each of us could > add even one 'Inch" to the vast area of our World. You make a good point. Thanks for the perspective. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 00:10:49 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R4AnIO008917 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:10:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R49x76017669 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:09:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R49w7T021614; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:09:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from topcat.systemsfirm.net (pcp822378pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.49.41.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R49s7T021566 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:09:56 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:09:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Thread-Topic: Re: Fun time machine question Thread-Index: AcOErJa9Xak48M/9RkCKkaWQqgPhug== From: "A.Thurman" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8R49s7T021566 Subject: [h-cost] Re: Fun time machine question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > The question is: "if you could spend a week (we all know that a day > just wouldn't be enough) with someone in the past or present to learn > about the art of sewing/designing, etc. who would you pick?" One week in Venice in the 1920s, learning and memorizing all of Mariano Fortuny's pleating/dyeing/fabric manipulation techniques :) Allison T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 01:08:08 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R583IO008994 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 01:08:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R57H76019309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:07:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R57Fek011835; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:07:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from citrine.spiritone.com (citrine.spiritone.com [216.99.193.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R57Bel011814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:07:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by citrine.spiritone.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8R59c1j015561 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:09:39 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1st and last books Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:09:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1cb.1156aeca.2ca20596@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com My first costume book was Kohler because it was available from Dover along with the Vecillo (?). My latest book is _Clothing Renaissance Florence_ by Carole Collier Frick, a fantastic book for someone who is interested in the fabric and fashioning details of costuming. There isn't much to interest the person who wants pictures (these are black and white) to re-create. If you liked Stella Marie Newton, Dress in Italian Painting, or Costume in the Age of the Black Prince you will love this. For those with a less scholarly interest (Not a put-down) beg your library to order this! Regina P.S. Did you know that a town in France, Perpignan where they wove stretchy fabric in the 14th Century for making hose? Got to write her and ask questions!) > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of AnnBWass@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 1:23 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1st and last books > > > The one book to have if you are doing early 19th century--"Revolution in > Fashion." > > My first costume book? Not the fvery irst one I owned, but it > was in my high > school and public library--"The Mode in Costume." Okay, I know it has a > really poor reputation today, and I understand why, but it got me > hooked on > historic costume. I made paper dolls with costumes from it. > When I found the book > at a used book sale in about 1980, I was glad to get it. > > Latest book, "What Clothes Reveal," to accompany the Williamsburg > exhibit. > (I've seen it once and must make plans to see it again.) > > Ann Wass > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 01:08:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R58eIO008997 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 01:08:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R58476019338 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:08:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R584ek012040; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:08:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m01.mx.aol.com (imo-m01.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R581ek012013 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 2003 23:08:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CharonLight@cs.com by imo-m01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.173.201d690a (2612) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 01:07:49 -0400 (EDT) From: CharonLight@cs.com Message-ID: <173.201d690a.2ca67525@cs.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 01:07:49 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 122 Subject: [h-cost] Moving Sale... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I hope this is okay to post. I'm moving out of state in about a week, and I'd love to find new homes for a few things. More will turn up as I pack my sewing room, I'm sure... ;) Professional dressmaker's dummy -- Men's size 34 chest, which could be padded to any size bigger or for a woman. It's got a cast iron stand with wheels, and is made out of wood with padding and muslin over it, great for pinning into. The company that makes them has a website, and they retail for about $400. I'm asking $180 + shipping. This is so much sturdier to work with than the other ones. 10 yards of medium weight white 100% linen, 60" wide. $10 a yard. Both this and the red get nice and soft after a washing. 10 yards of medium weight red 100% linen, 60" wide. $10 a yard. 40+ square feet of black suede. Lovely garment grade, can be sew on most machines. $1.40 square foot, I paid $2 at wholesale. This is plenty for a doublet with full sleeves or a short cape. $56.00 70+ square feet of earthtone dark tan suede. Lovely garment grade, can be sew on most machines. $1.40 square foot, I paid $2 at wholesale. This is plenty for a complete Elizabethan men's outfit. A hunting outfit would be great! $98.00 40 square feet of rich brown suede. Lovely garment grade, can be sew on most machines. $1.40 square foot, I paid $2 at wholesale. This is plenty for a doublet with full sleeves or a short cape. $56.00 If there's an earthtone suede color that you need that I haven't listed, ask and I might have some. I know I have lots moss and beige offhand, and a 13ft skin of purple... Sharon _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 03:41:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R7fTIO009780 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 03:41:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R7eh76024324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 01:40:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R7efG6003124; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 01:40:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt4.ihug.co.nz (grunt4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.44]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R7ebG6003101 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 01:40:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p17-max5.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.207.145] by grunt4.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A39gw-0008M2-00; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:40:34 +1200 Message-ID: <00b601c384ca$a0571e30$91cfadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sanchez-Coello question Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:40:29 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > >> http://www.bowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/image.php3?Name=Portrait+of+ > >> Catherine+of+Austria&image=founders-b-m-5.jpg > >> Is this design woven into the fabric, embroidered or a > >> woven trim applied afterwards? > > > > It looks like a surface treatment to me. It is not woven that way. It > > looks more like an embroidered or woven trim. > > > It looks like trim added to either side of slashes on a surcoat with the > slashed closed by the intricate metallic frogs and pumpkin-shaped buttons. I'd say couched something rather than trim. There is no mitring of corners for around the slashes, and indeed the slashes look bound with something different to the rest of the applied decoration (ie the edges of the slashes as opposed to the area around the slashes). It just is too bitsy to be a trim. And so much of what has survived shows decoration specific to the garment. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 04:03:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R83lIO019337 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 04:03:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R83B76024887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 02:03:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R839OE009588; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 02:03:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt2.ihug.co.nz (grunt2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.42]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R836OE009562 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 02:03:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p17-max5.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.207.145] by grunt2.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A3A2h-0005rW-00; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:03:03 +1200 Message-ID: <00c701c384cd$c51fbee0$91cfadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:02:59 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > http://glittersweet.com/1411frescojacquerio.jpg > > I have no idea what is going on with this image at all. That hat thing > > looks > > like something from the 20thC;) > Do you have more of this work scanned? I would love to see it in > context. Yep it's from a Fountain of Youth fresco, from the youthful side. Atcually the book is full of interesting and odd items. There is a German tapestry with the most interesting costuming going on. Some gowns look like they are vertically striped, but it's more likely to be that the artist (weaver) was trying to show folds in the fabric and the paler shade had faded even more, but some really do look like stripes. And the gowns have bishop sleeves with goblet cuffs. And there is a heart shaped book in there as well. http://glittersweet.com/1411frescojacqueriofull.jpg I'll see if I can find some illuminating test... Follower of Giacomo Jaquerio, The Fountain of Youth, c. 1411-16. Fresco, 7'10 1/2" X 3'11" (24 X 12m[ummm... I suspect this is possibly the reverse? maybe 7 X 3m? so 24 X 12'?]) Piedmont, Great Hall of the Castello di Manta. The text just talks about the centre as being an excuse to paint nudes and about the wealthy being able to revell in excess. And that the poor had the Bath houses etc. I got the book for the pictures;) The text makes me a bit annoyed at times... Well with the title Medieval Art of Love it could be anything...;) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 04:04:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8R842IO019452 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 04:04:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R83R76024911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 02:03:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R83QOE009674; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 02:03:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt2.ihug.co.nz (grunt2.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.42]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8R836OE009563 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 02:03:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p17-max5.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.207.145] by grunt2.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A3A2h-0005tb-00; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:03:04 +1200 Message-ID: <00c801c384cd$c6dd9b80$91cfadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001101c38412$fe876630$15c2adcb@michaela> <3F7414F2.6090107@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:03:02 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com <> I'm not sure. The other figures in the painting with that same hat thing are women as well, a bit of presuming going on as they are all wearing long chemises. There is a bulge like a hip in the wrong place, or it could be the artist trying to show the curve of the butt to show the figure is leaning forward. True there are men being dressed by women on that side, but there are naked old women on the other side, so maybe the artist realised he didn't have enough women being dressed. There sould otherwise be the mistake that the fountain not only restored youth but made you masculine unless he had a female figure on that side;) the full image is here: http://glittersweet.com/1411frescojacqueriofull.jpg As mentioend in a recent email... actually I'm typing them up together, no idea which will go through first;) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 08:03:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RC3vIO014846 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:03:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RC3B76003250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 06:03:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RC38dv026330; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 06:03:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta8-svc.business.ntl.com (mta8-svc.business.ntl.com [62.253.164.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RC33dv026296 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 06:03:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Imedia5043 ([80.1.15.10]) by mta8-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with SMTP id <20030927102035.CJWD12370.mta8-svc.business.ntl.com@Imedia5043> for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:20:35 +0100 Message-ID: <00bb01c384e0$f8bcf660$95110150@Imedia5043> From: "Dawn Wood" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000a01c38478$fc524d60$9e29a5d1@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Philadelphia Museum of Art-Schiaparelli Exhibit Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:20:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com My favourite designer a true innovative genius not only that someone who looked after her staff well having crèches etc and having to move out of Paris during the war because, unlike Chanel who was a Nazi collaborator and treated her staff like crap, Schiaparelli spoke up against them Dawn Ages Of Elegance makers of historical clothing, uniforms and bridalwear http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6717 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 10:56 PM Subject: [h-cost] Philadelphia Museum of Art-Schiaparelli Exhibit Here's a designer I would have enjoyed meeting and a new exhibit on her work, but still not my top pick. I'm still thinking! http://www.cnn.com/2003/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/09/26/shocking.schiaparelli.ap/index.html Lisa _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 08:56:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RCuuIO014911 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:56:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RCuH76004985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 06:56:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RCuGGC013774; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 06:56:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RCuCGD013725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 06:56:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8RD2n0q020501 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:02:49 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F758918.6030804@thibault.org> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:56:56 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question References: <00c701c384cd$c51fbee0$91cfadcb@michaela> In-Reply-To: <00c701c384cd$c51fbee0$91cfadcb@michaela> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com michaela wrote: > Follower of Giacomo Jaquerio, The Fountain of Youth, c. 1411-16. Fresco, > 7'10 1/2" X 3'11" (24 X 12m[ummm... I suspect this is possibly the reverse? > maybe 7 X 3m? so 24 X 12'?]) > Piedmont, Great Hall of the Castello di Manta. If you do a search at Google for "Giacomo Jaquerio Castello Manta" you get lots of articles which you can then say "Translate this page" and read about the frescos, of which there are several in this castle. I'm looking through them to see if anything covers the fountain of youth ("Fontana of the giovinezza" in translation) in suitable depth for our purposes, but my time is short today. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. -- Noam Chomsky _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 09:33:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RDXgIO014969 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:33:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDWw76006292 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:32:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDWtGC026580; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:32:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDWqGC026484 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:32:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a236.in-tch.com [66.62.107.36]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8RDCOb24151 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:12:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F759209.BBE49308@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:35:05 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com It's from an Italian fresco. I think I recognize it from a friend's book on the same subject--it caught my eye because of the depictions of undergarments, which are not often seen. Not sure of the subject of the particular fresco, though. If no one finds out before next week, I'll ask her to lend it to me (I'd do that now, but she's in AZ going to KWAS). --sue, up early on a beeyootiful fall morning Heather Rose Jones wrote: > > At 10:06 AM -0700 9/26/03, Grace Morris wrote: > >>I'll see if I can upload the odd images I have of a green and red garment > >>that is actually being put on so you can see it's one garment. The lacing is > >>loose so you can see it go from red to green. > >> > >>http://glittersweet.com/1411frescojacquerio.jpg > >>I have no idea what is going on with this image at all. That hat thing looks > >>like something from the 20thC;) > >> > >Do you have more of this work scanned? I would love to see it in context. > > What's more, knowing what genre the work is depicting might help in > figuring out what's going on with the clothing. > > Heather _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 09:47:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RDlrIO015006 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:47:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDlE76006892 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:47:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDl8GC002183; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:47:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDl5GC002125 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a236.in-tch.com [66.62.107.36]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8RDQbb28584 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:26:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F75955F.AA4B1B53@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:49:19 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another nice dress References: <20030926210240.95471.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'd imagine so. There are other examples of women portrayed with green dresses. --sue Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: > > http://www.comune.roma.it/museicapitolini/pinacoteca/visita/sala3_savoldo.htm > > This dress also appears green on the outer dress. Does > anyone know if it really is? > > ===== > Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 09:50:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RDo1IO015012 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:50:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDnM76006970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:49:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDnMGC002927; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:49:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDnKGC002890 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:49:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a236.in-tch.com [66.62.107.36]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8RDSqb29335 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:28:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F7595E5.14C9A6B2@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:51:33 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] same model and dress? References: <20030926212714.34472.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Oh, how interesting! I don't know if they're exactly the same, but they're certainly similar! --sue Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: > > http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/largeImage?workNumber=NG2493&collectionSection=work > > then look at > > http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pinfo?Object=41318+0+none > > is this the same dress and same model? This apparently > are allegorical works. > > ===== > Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 09:58:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RDwiIO015035 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:58:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDw676007214 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:58:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDw5gC005818; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:58:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RDw3gC005757 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:58:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a236.in-tch.com [66.62.107.36]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8RDbZb02242 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:37:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F7597F1.88AE9066@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:00:17 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Happy Dance/russet woolens References: <20030924195628.33411.qmail@web12007.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hey, that's wonderful news! As far as the wool goes, why not just go with getting the right weight of uncolored or white wool, and then dyeing it yourself? You can get some great rusty and orange shades with madder. Or turmeric for the mustardy yellow, although I've been told that turmeric fades. And I bet there are (modern, chemical) dyes out there, too, that would give you the colors you'd like. --sue, who's sorry she doesn't really have any wool stores to recommend.... Cascio Michael wrote: > > Hello the list, > I just got my biopsy results and the cancer was > benign. Snooopy Happy Dances around room and will > probably do same for hours and days. > Now that I know I'll be around to at least > consider finishing some of my projects I need either > rust or pumpkin or mustard colored wool. Russet in > the red-brown or cinnamon shades is preferred and I > need either pant weight or crepe weight. I really > would prefer someplace that swatches so I can see how > well the samples felt. Any suggestions? > Cassandra > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 10:14:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8REEHIO015123 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:14:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8REBi76008297 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:11:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8REBhgC011090; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:11:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-m06.mx.aol.com (imo-m06.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.161]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8REBegC011045 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:11:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LoreleiMorte@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.1c4.f67dcb9 (4340) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:11:30 -0400 (EDT) From: LoreleiMorte@aol.com Message-ID: <1c4.f67dcb9.2ca6f491@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:11:29 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun time machine question To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'd go snatch up "John the Tailor" ...some fella who tailored for the middle classes. Then I stick Alcega in a sack, bring him back with me and make him explain to me why his kirtles were so long. -Sarra Wryght www.sixteenthcenturystitchery.com (Elizabethan Dress Diaries, etc) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 10:56:25 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8REuPIO015223 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:56:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8REtC76010313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:55:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8REtBPS027716; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:55:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.thibault.org [66.92.75.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8REt7PT027684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:55:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sergyar.thibault.org (sergyar.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by sergyar.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h8RF1i0q020886 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:01:44 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by sergyar.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:01:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3F75A4F7.50101@thibault.org> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:55:51 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fun time machine question References: <1c4.f67dcb9.2ca6f491@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1c4.f67dcb9.2ca6f491@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I think I'd get myself outfitted with a tiny video camera and lots and lots of tapes and batteries, and just walk around several cities in different time periods, taking movies. That, all by itself, would be an education! -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. -- Noam Chomsky _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 11:03:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RF3hIO015242 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:03:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RF2x76010597 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:02:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RF2wPS000922; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:02:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RF2tPS000857 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:02:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-58-213.jps.net ([209.165.58.213] helo=pavilion) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A3Gb0-00009H-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:02:54 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c38508$e0335940$d53aa5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000a01c38478$fc524d60$9e29a5d1@pavilion> <00bb01c384e0$f8bcf660$95110150@Imedia5043> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Philadelphia Museum of Art-Schiaparelli Exhibit Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:05:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dawn Wood" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 3:20 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Philadelphia Museum of Art-Schiaparelli Exhibit > My favourite designer a true innovative genius > > not only that someone who looked after her staff well having crèches etc > and having to move out of Paris during the war because, unlike Chanel who > was a Nazi collaborator and treated her staff like crap, Schiaparelli spoke > up against them > > Dawn > Ages Of Elegance makers of historical clothing, uniforms and bridalwear > http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6717 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lisa Sinervo" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 10:56 PM > Subject: [h-cost] Philadelphia Museum of Art-Schiaparelli Exhibit > > > Here's a designer I would have enjoyed meeting and a new exhibit on her > work, but still not my top pick. I'm still thinking! > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TRAVEL/DESTINATIONS/09/26/shocking.schiaparelli.ap/i ndex.html > > Lisa > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 11:18:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RFIfIO015251 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:18:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RFHx76011209 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:17:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RFHvPS006808; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:17:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RFHsPS006793 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:17:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 209-165-58-213.jps.net ([209.165.58.213] helo=pavilion) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A3GpQ-0001Nh-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:17:52 -0700 Message-ID: <002001c3850a$ef167760$d53aa5d1@pavilion> From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000a01c38478$fc524d60$9e29a5d1@pavilion> <00bb01c384e0$f8bcf660$95110150@Imedia5043> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Philadelphia Museum of Art-Schiaparelli Exhibit Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:20:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Dawn Wood wrote: > My favourite designer a true innovative genius > > not only that someone who looked after her staff well having crèches etc > and having to move out of Paris during the war because, unlike Chanel who > was a Nazi collaborator and treated her staff like crap, Schiaparelli spoke > up against them > Yeah, I thought quite a bit about Coco Chanel as a pick, but meeting her would probably be a very unpleasant experience, although perhaps I'd get to stay at the Ritz Hotel which would be nice. I'm going to have to say a week at the Great Wardrobe. Then I'd come back and tell everyone where the bents go in a bumroll! Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 12:28:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RGSQIO015352 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:28:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RGRm76014206 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:27:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RGRklR006104; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:27:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RGRhlR006035 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:27:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip82.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.164.82]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB1366A923 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:27:41 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:27:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] 1st and last books Message-ID: <3F75580C.28862.F334FA8@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <1cb.1156aeca.2ca20596@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Regina > P.S. Did you know that a town in France, Perpignan where they wove > stretchy fabric in the 14th Century for making hose? Got to write her > and ask questions!) Cool! Regina, you will share what you learn with us, won't you?! Of course, some of their textiles (at least on the bias) were a lot stretchier than our fabrics of the same fibre. It has to do with how the fibre is handled and how the textile is processed. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 12:28:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RGSwIO015355 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:28:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RGSO76014237 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:28:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RGSOlR006433; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:28:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RGRjlR006072 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:27:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip82.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.164.82]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555D86A8CF for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:27:43 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:27:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Message-ID: <3F75580C.1455.F334E9F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <002b01c3849e$714125e0$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I don't > draw awfully well myself, but the primitive work done by these people > from the past at least kept the idea of HCostume alive until the > learned efforts by Arnold, Hunniset, and all the other costume history > people of lesser renown were able to do and present their studies for > the edification of us all. Would that each of us could add even one > 'Inch" to the vast area of our World. While I understand the sentiment, it doesn't mean that the books are appropriate for use now. For example (in another field for perspective), why would one want to use mere palpation and physical exam for finding a brain tumor in someone when we now have CAT scans and MRIs? We can tip our hats to the ones who blazed the trails but you don't need to go back to their methods now that we have ones which are better now. So, we can look at those books for historically understanding the evolution of historic costume but we need to use our best sources (and direct others to those sources instead of the now inappropriate ones) as soon as they are available for the research and work we now do. Sometimes this is very painful. I just finished re-writing a 4 hour class on the history of men's and women's underwear in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. I thought it was already in the can until I looked at my "script" and the handout for the class (especially the bibliography.) I read through the "script" going "but I found out that that's not true based on the information that came out in 200X" and at the handout going "I can't believe I actually cited X, X and X". But then, I also had to revise the handout because it had so many Wilcox (and similar author's) redrawings. Argh! I can't believe what we used to get away with regarding copyright laws. But then, photocopy quality has gone *way* up as has the method of producing the originals. I can now use selected scans of actual art works (which I prefer anyway) because instead of using cut and paste (with lots of pale blue pencil and re-inking of things) I can use Pagemaker and directly place pics into documents. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 12:33:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RGXuIO015375 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:33:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RGXO76014501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:33:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RGXNlR008794; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:33:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RGXKlR008765 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:33:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip82.164-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.164.82]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB0B6A846 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:33:19 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:33:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sanchez-Coello question Message-ID: <3F75595F.15683.F387B06@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <00b601c384ca$a0571e30$91cfadcb@michaela> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I had written: > > > It looks like a surface treatment to me. It is not woven that way. > > > It looks more like an embroidered or woven trim. Michaela wrote: > I'd say couched something rather than trim. There is no mitring of > corners for around the slashes, and indeed the slashes look bound with > something different to the rest of the applied decoration (ie the > edges of the slashes as opposed to the area around the slashes). It > just is too bitsy to be a trim. And so much of what has survived shows > decoration specific to the garment. That's why I was thinking embroidered. If you have an embroidered piece (call it the "trim") and want to attach it, you can use couching to do so. I noticed that the edge seems more elevated than the interior of the "trim". It looked almost like piping because of it's thickness. And the edge of the slash itself reminded me of a piped bound buttonhole. I agree, however, that it was not a trim the way we think of it: long yardage that we cut up into bits to do the same thing. (But there is no way we have the time to do all that embroidery and still get the dress done in a short enough time frame, yet still have our otherwise modern life. Got to make some concessions to modern life.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 13:42:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RHgwIO015489 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:42:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RHeW76017678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:40:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RHeUQd009290; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:40:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RHeQQd009244 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:40:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.111] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id AA808D80120; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:36:00 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c3851f$03b24140$6f5183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F75580C.1455.F334E9F@localhost> Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:44:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kat, I am glad you have taken the time to respond to my note re using what are, in the professional trade, inferior visual references. I still maintain that JQPublic doesn't give a hoot re the historicity of a period costume. Heck, most of them still haven't gotten the difference between 1800 and the Eighteenth Century! A visual timeline by Peacock or anyone else will be their only connection between the costume they have in mind and its appropriateness to the era required. I often see people cruising the fabric stores with pattern in hand, looking for the duplicate fabric as pictured in the cover. They don't do well with spatial concepts. As an interpreter of period fashion, I can and do help them toward a more real approach to coming closer to the right choices for line, color, pattern/ornamentation, trim, fabric choices, and etc. Every costume cannot, and should not be only replicas of 'known models'. Such labors of love have a legitimate place in Historical Costume, but not every situation can demand such an exactitude. Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 12:27 PM Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books > > > I don't > > draw awfully well myself, but the primitive work done by these people > > from the past at least kept the idea of HCostume alive until the > > learned efforts by Arnold, Hunniset, and all the other costume history > > people of lesser renown were able to do and present their studies for > > the edification of us all. Would that each of us could add even one > > 'Inch" to the vast area of our World. > > While I understand the sentiment, it doesn't mean that the books are > appropriate for use now. > > For example (in another field for perspective), why would one want to > use mere palpation and physical exam for finding a brain tumor in > someone when we now have CAT scans and MRIs? We can tip our hats to > the ones who blazed the trails but you don't need to go back to their > methods now that we have ones which are better now. > > So, we can look at those books for historically understanding the > evolution of historic costume but we need to use our best sources > (and direct others to those sources instead of the now inappropriate > ones) as soon as they are available for the research and work we now > do. > > Sometimes this is very painful. I just finished re-writing a 4 hour > class on the history of men's and women's underwear in the Middle > Ages and Renaissance. I thought it was already in the can until I > looked at my "script" and the handout for the class (especially the > bibliography.) I read through the "script" going "but I found out > that that's not true based on the information that came out in 200X" > and at the handout going "I can't believe I actually cited X, X and > X". > > But then, I also had to revise the handout because it had so many > Wilcox (and similar author's) redrawings. Argh! I can't believe what > we used to get away with regarding copyright laws. > > But then, photocopy quality has gone *way* up as has the method of > producing the originals. I can now use selected scans of actual art > works (which I prefer anyway) because instead of using cut and paste > (with lots of pale blue pencil and re-inking of things) I can use > Pagemaker and directly place pics into documents. > > Kat > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 14:03:16 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RI33IO015528 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:03:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RI2I76018782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:02:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RI2HB8018320; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:02:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web9404.mail.yahoo.com (web9404.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.129.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8RI0JB8017252 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:00:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030927180018.60509.qmail@web9404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.166] by web9404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:00:18 PDT Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:00:18 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sanchez-Coello question To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F75595F.15683.F387B06@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >From studying the embroideries of the time period--(and since that's what I teach:) I'm fairly certain what we are looking at is a form of metal thread/gold bullion embroidery.There are all sorts of techniques that where employed during this time period to attach gold , and silver , and sometimes copper--to embellish the surface of clothing and hangings. When the piece wore out --it was cut off the original and re-attached in place on a new piece of clothing or hanging, often with couching more embellishments on top of the joinings . These pieces of embroidery were considered so valuable that they were bequeathed in wills. Albra kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: I had written: > > > It looks like a surface treatment to me. It is not woven that way. > > > It looks more like an embroidered or woven trim. Michaela wrote: > I'd say couched something rather than trim. There is no mitring of > corners for around the slashes, and indeed the slashes look bound with > something different to the rest of the applied decoration (ie the > edges of the slashes as opposed to the area around the slashes). It > just is too bitsy to be a trim. And so much of what has survived shows > decoration specific to the garment. That's why I was thinking embroidered. If you have an embroidered piece (call it the "trim") and want to attach it, you can use couching to do so. I noticed that the edge seems more elevated than the interior of the "trim". It looked almost like piping because of it's thickness. And the edge of the slash itself reminded me of a piped bound buttonhole. I agree, however, that it was not a trim the way we think of it: long yardage that we cut up into bits to do the same thing. (But there is no way we have the time to do all that embroidery and still get the dress done in a short enough time frame, yet still have our otherwise modern life. Got to make some concessions to modern life.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 14:21:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RIKpIO015552 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:21:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RIJj76019522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:19:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RIJgB8025319; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:19:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RIJeB8025265 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:19:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a215.in-tch.com [66.62.107.15]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8RHx9b00469 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:59:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F75D540.261F56AE@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:21:52 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sanchez-Coello question References: <00b601c384ca$a0571e30$91cfadcb@michaela> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Good point! I would have said strips of pre-embroidered/couched trim, but perhaps not. Or maybe it's a combination of both, and it's just not obvious with the darkness of the online image? I must say, the stuff I've seen that's at all similar (either in portraits or extant garments like Eleanor of Toledo's burial gown) are embroidery done on strips, and not on the garment itself. Having typed that, of course, I fully expect a flood of pictures showing me where I'm wrong, but that's half the fun of this list! --sue michaela wrote: > > > >> http://www.bowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/image.php3?Name=Portrait+of+ > > >> Catherine+of+Austria&image=founders-b-m-5.jpg > > >> Is this design woven into the fabric, embroidered or a > > >> woven trim applied afterwards? > > > > > > It looks like a surface treatment to me. It is not woven that way. It > > > looks more like an embroidered or woven trim. > > > > > It looks like trim added to either side of slashes on a surcoat with the > > slashed closed by the intricate metallic frogs and pumpkin-shaped buttons. > > I'd say couched something rather than trim. There is no mitring of corners > for around the slashes, and indeed the slashes look bound with something > different to the rest of the applied decoration (ie the edges of the slashes > as opposed to the area around the slashes). It just is too bitsy to be a > trim. And so much of what has survived shows decoration specific to the > garment. > > michaela > http://costumes.glittersweet.com > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 14:26:55 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RIQiIO015557 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:26:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RIPq76019854 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:25:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RIPpB8027909; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:25:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RIPmB8027828 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:25:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a215.in-tch.com [66.62.107.15]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8RI5Kb02339 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:05:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F75D6B2.BEC63F9A@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:28:02 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'll vote for the books by Iris Brooks, myself. --sue Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > > >I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in > >person. > > > >I wouldn't buy it unless you have a collection of awful costuming texts. > > So what's the worst historical costume book ever printed? My vote goes for > Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other votes? > > CarolynKayta Barrows > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > www.FunStuft.com > > //// \\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ))) > ((( <> )))) > ) (((((( > /----\ /---\)) > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 14:33:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RIWwIO015569 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:33:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RIWI76020255 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:32:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RIWHB8000756; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:32:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RIWEB8000698 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:32:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a215.in-tch.com [66.62.107.15]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8RIBkb04283 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:11:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F75D834.DC365685@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:34:28 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net><4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com><200309242120.45611.cathy@thyrsus.com> <002b01c3849e$714125e0$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Good point, Kathleen. I've been awfully spoiled with the ability to purchase wonderful books and articles from the Costuming Gods (living and dead), never mind such astonishing resources as the internet, and lists like this. As a funny, though, when I was first getting into historical costuming (about 15-16 years ago when I joined the SCA), one of the first books I remember coming across was something by Iris Brooks. Having no clue whatsoever about how inaccurate a source it was, I was very carefully making sketches of the illos., and noting the color combinations As a rank newbie, it just didn't occur to me that someone would go to all that trouble for a book, and not put in the "real" colors! --sue Lloyd Mitchell wrote: > > I gather that there are a lot of you out there that came to HCostume after > the mid 1960s. You cannot imagine what was commonly available at that time > re research or how-to for costuming that was in any way connected with > History. I was thrust into a theater venue that sent me to the Art History > Dept for real pictures of designs from the past and the likes of Wilcox, > Barton, Davenport,Kohler, Cassin and etc, were Lights! Peacock, who gained a > space on my shelf rather late, presented an incorporation of ideas and > designs that could communicate with my customers if only for the line change > in fashion development. I don't draw awfully well myself, but the primitive > work done by these people from the past at least kept the idea of HCostume > alive until the learned efforts by Arnold, Hunniset, and all the other > costume history people of lesser renown were able to do and present their > studies for the edification of us all. Would that each of us could add even > one 'Inch" to the vast area of our World. > > Kathleen > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Dawn Wood" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:17 AM > Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books > > > do bear in mind when complaining about the Peacock book that it was > written > > in the seventies which accounts for the fashion drawing style by a costume > > designer not a historian for the same market and there wasn't much around > > then reference wise for grown ups. > > I worked with John on several accessions and he was the first to admit it > > wasn't the best book but what was wanted at the time. I don't own it btw > for > > just those reasons > > > > I think we can say the same about many of the other 'bad ones around > today. > > The kohler book for instance is useful because many garments in there > don't > > survive any more. Cassin's osprey nelsons navy book is also rather useful > > using it atm > > > > My first book which got me hooked when I was 7 from the local library was > a > > costume timeline book which I still adore. if only for nostalgia reasons > > > > My last a 1911 tailoring magazine for the chauffeurs uniform pattern draft > > as I kept getting enquiries for one. There have been rather a lot in > between > > and still not enough but thankfully they are tax deductible > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > Ages Of Elegance makers of historical clothing, uniforms and bridalwear > > http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6717 > > > > >I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in > > > > >person. > > > > Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other > > > > votes? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 15:16:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RJGXIO015637 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:16:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RJFj76022231 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:15:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RJFhjW017178; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:15:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from topcat.systemsfirm.net (pcp822378pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.49.41.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RJFajW017118 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:15:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:15:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Thread-Topic: enlarging patterns from books? Thread-Index: AcOFKw8uParAndIYSNCXfyd2MN+Ecg== From: "A.Thurman" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8RJFajW017118 Subject: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm currently brainstorming a cape made from one of the patterns in Betty Kirke's "Vionnet" book. I am having some problems running into scaling the patterns up without losing proportion. First - I looked through the book and can't find a scale - for those who haven't had a chance to look at this fantastic book, none of the patterns are on a grid, so I have no idea of scale. The second question has to do with mechanics - even if I could figure out how big I need this to be, how would I enlarge the pattern without destroying the proportion? The only thing I can think of would be to project it on a wall to get the size I need and then trace it off, but I don't have easy access to a wall large enough, or a projector! Has anyone tried to do something similar to this? Allison T. P.S. If anyone has tips on where to get long, wide sheets of paper, I'd love to hear them. I'm considering calling up my local newspaper! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 15:23:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RJNIIO015641 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:23:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RJMk76022506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:22:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RJMjjW020262; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:22:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.washjeff.edu (mail.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.100]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RJMfjW020189 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:22:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rmitchellras [209.131.81.107] by mail.washjeff.edu (SMTPD32-7.15) id A27733C0064; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:18:15 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c3852d$4c6adc40$6b5183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net><4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com><200309242120.45611.cathy@thyrsus.com><002b01c3849e$714125e0$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> <3F75D834.DC365685@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:26:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Having just spent most of the day reshelving my library, I came across my copy of MS Brooks and was struck anew with the primitive illustrations. They make Peacock look like an "Old Master'. If I take time to read the chapters, I wonder how far off she was, given the scholarship of the time.(Pub. when?) Of more interest to me, I rediscovered the following. Any comments? Calthrop, English Costume, 4 volumes, 1906 Airne, The story of Britain, (Pre history Rome, Medieval, Saxon/Roman, Stuart/Tudor, and Hanoverian) No date; distributed via the Woolworth co, USA, Pub. Sankey and Hudson co Manchester, England. (Lots of bibliography and b&w drawings/ prints from various artifacts, and etc.) Period Patterns, Doris Edson and Lucy Barton, W.H.Baker co, Boston. (Companion to the Barton Theater volume) Costume Fanciful and Historical and Theatrical, Mrs. Aria; illustrated by Percy Anderson, 1906. Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Clemenger" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 2:34 PM Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books > Good point, Kathleen. I've been awfully spoiled with the ability to > purchase wonderful books and articles from the Costuming Gods (living > and dead), never mind such astonishing resources as the internet, and > lists like this. > As a funny, though, when I was first getting into historical costuming > (about 15-16 years ago when I joined the SCA), one of the first books I > remember coming across was something by Iris Brooks. Having no clue > whatsoever about how inaccurate a source it was, I was very carefully > making sketches of the illos., and noting the color combinations grin> As a rank newbie, it just didn't occur to me that someone would go > to all that trouble for a book, and not put in the "real" colors! > --sue > > Lloyd Mitchell wrote: > > > > I gather that there are a lot of you out there that came to HCostume after > > the mid 1960s. You cannot imagine what was commonly available at that time > > re research or how-to for costuming that was in any way connected with > > History. I was thrust into a theater venue that sent me to the Art History > > Dept for real pictures of designs from the past and the likes of Wilcox, > > Barton, Davenport,Kohler, Cassin and etc, were Lights! Peacock, who gained a > > space on my shelf rather late, presented an incorporation of ideas and > > designs that could communicate with my customers if only for the line change > > in fashion development. I don't draw awfully well myself, but the primitive > > work done by these people from the past at least kept the idea of HCostume > > alive until the learned efforts by Arnold, Hunniset, and all the other > > costume history people of lesser renown were able to do and present their > > studies for the edification of us all. Would that each of us could add even > > one 'Inch" to the vast area of our World. > > > > Kathleen > > ---- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dawn Wood" > > To: "Historical Costume" > > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:17 AM > > Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books > > > > > do bear in mind when complaining about the Peacock book that it was > > written > > > in the seventies which accounts for the fashion drawing style by a costume > > > designer not a historian for the same market and there wasn't much around > > > then reference wise for grown ups. > > > I worked with John on several accessions and he was the first to admit it > > > wasn't the best book but what was wanted at the time. I don't own it btw > > for > > > just those reasons > > > > > > I think we can say the same about many of the other 'bad ones around > > today. > > > The kohler book for instance is useful because many garments in there > > don't > > > survive any more. Cassin's osprey nelsons navy book is also rather useful > > > using it atm > > > > > > My first book which got me hooked when I was 7 from the local library was > > a > > > costume timeline book which I still adore. if only for nostalgia reasons > > > > > > My last a 1911 tailoring magazine for the chauffeurs uniform pattern draft > > > as I kept getting enquiries for one. There have been rather a lot in > > between > > > and still not enough but thankfully they are tax deductible > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > Ages Of Elegance makers of historical clothing, uniforms and bridalwear > > > http://www.agesofelegance.co.uk 0113 277 6717 > > > > > >I dimly recall hearing "Cassin is awful," but I've never seen it in > > > > > >person. > > > > > Pocock's book with all the badly proportioned re-drawings. Any other > > > > > votes? > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > h-costume mailing list > > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 15:35:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RJZWIO015824 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:35:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RJYr76023075 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:34:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RJYqjW025093; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:34:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RJYmjW025067 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:34:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be70.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.112]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D4F6E5EE223 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:34:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000901c3852e$8f044f40$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:35:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hello. I do this all the time. Using a projektor. If you have to scale it up, as you say so that you have not a wall large enough, you can take pieces by pieces of it. Norah Waughs corsets and crinolines i have done it with and also with The cut of womens clothes. This way you get a precise enlarging, and then you can alter it, so that it fits into your projekt. My projektor is very old, it is called an ennascope. I scan the pattern first, and then i make it smaller on the computer so that it fits my ennascope. Works beautifully. I dont have a wall big enough either, and there is two much light in the livingroom. Therefore i do it in our hall. And i projekts on the door in stead, tapes up some pattern paper on the door and draws it there. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "A.Thurman" To: Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 9:15 PM Subject: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? > I'm currently brainstorming a cape made from one of the patterns in Betty Kirke's "Vionnet" book. I am having some problems running into scaling the patterns up without losing proportion. > > First - I looked through the book and can't find a scale - for those who haven't had a chance to look at this fantastic book, none of the patterns are on a grid, so I have no idea of scale. > > The second question has to do with mechanics - even if I could figure out how big I need this to be, how would I enlarge the pattern without destroying the proportion? The only thing I can think of would be to project it on a wall to get the size I need and then trace it off, but I don't have easy access to a wall large enough, or a projector! > > Has anyone tried to do something similar to this? > > Allison T. > > P.S. If anyone has tips on where to get long, wide sheets of paper, I'd love to hear them. I'm considering calling up my local newspaper! > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 16:23:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RKNAIO016778 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:23:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RKMP76025603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:22:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RKMHch017971; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:22:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RKMFch017945 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:22:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m3.in-tch.com [216.166.191.3]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8RK1kb09215 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:01:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F75F1FC.7F0E06B5@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:24:28 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Only with small bits for embroidery or appliqué designs, and then I used a photocopier, and experimented with the variable enlarger thingy until I got my bit to the right size. Do you have any idea of what the finished cape will look like? Could you, maybe, start off your pattern draft with measurements taken from another (known) item, like another cape, or a pattern for same? --sue "A.Thurman" wrote: > > I'm currently brainstorming a cape made from one of the patterns in Betty Kirke's "Vionnet" book. I am having some problems running into scaling the patterns up without losing proportion. > > First - I looked through the book and can't find a scale - for those who haven't had a chance to look at this fantastic book, none of the patterns are on a grid, so I have no idea of scale. > > The second question has to do with mechanics - even if I could figure out how big I need this to be, how would I enlarge the pattern without destroying the proportion? The only thing I can think of would be to project it on a wall to get the size I need and then trace it off, but I don't have easy access to a wall large enough, or a projector! > > Has anyone tried to do something similar to this? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 16:31:11 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RKVAIO016791 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:31:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RKUS76025909 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:30:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RKURch021486; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:30:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RKUOch021421 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:30:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8RKUHl6027718; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:30:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030927162148.00aefe40@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:29:48 -0400 To: elizabethanClothing@yahoogroups.com, h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] Bumrolls and farthingales -- together or not? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I've spent some time recently working with trying to fix some problems in my farthingale, and checking skirts with bumroll, farthingale, and both, trying to figure out the apparent angles and proportions. (For reference, both farthingale and bumroll are from Margo's Underpinnings package.) I notice that if I wear the (crescent-shaped) bumroll alone, I get a very good "middle to mid-late period" look, and if I wear the farthingale alone I get a very good "early period look". The few images I've seen of the "bumroll" look have the hem of the skirt stick out no further than the bumroll (thinking particularly of the one French funeral bronze in Boucher; I don't have the book to-hand to give the exact reference). What historical evidence do we have that bumroll and farthingale were worn *together*? Or is that just a renfaire-ism? Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 17:18:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RLIVIO016913 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:18:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RLHi76028019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:17:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RLHg02010856; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:17:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RLHe02010838 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:17:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [209.249.181.39] (pool181-32.patriot.net [209.249.181.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.10/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h8RLHc1N013795 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:17:39 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: aquazoo@mail.patriot.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:18:14 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: Carol Kocian Subject: Re: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Allison, >P.S. If anyone has tips on where to get long, wide sheets of paper, >I'd love to hear them. I'm considering calling up my local newspaper! Rather then a newspaper, see if you can locate a web printer who does magazines. While glossy magazine paper isn't easy to write on, there is a trend now for matte finish paper that is easier. A printer will sometimes use plain, uncoated paper on certain projects, so you may be able to find that as well. Newsprint will yellow in time. A web printer uses a web of paper, actually a large roll. Generally this roll will be about 3 feet in diameter. When the paper gets near the end of the roll, they attach a new roll end and keep on printing. It's easier that way than letting the old roll run out & rethreading the press. The old roll will have an inch or two of paper left on it, which is enough for lots of patterns. It's called a butt roll (no kidding!), and most printers grind them up (cardboard core and all) for recycling. If you call ahead and describe the paper you would like, they may be able to hold one for you. I used to get them when I went on press inspections for a magazine. -Carol _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 18:02:19 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RM2JIO017032 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:02:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RM1d76029888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:01:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RM1bf7028742; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:01:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from m3.nyc.untd.com (m3.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.66]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8RM1Yf7028689 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:01:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from cookie.untd.com by cookie.untd.com for <"MW/ewWa+Q2FG65sHxVDc3U38181FdW/wfQxSqfDWLmoKl4Jar5TvHQ==">; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:00:49 PDT Received: (from btana@juno.com) by m3.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JA476BBH; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:00:49 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:07:27 -0600 Subject: Re: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? Message-ID: <20030927.160937.1132.0.btana@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-20,30-37,42-45,47-49 From: btana@juno.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:15:31 -0400 "A.Thurman" writes: > I'm currently brainstorming a cape made from one of the patterns in > Betty Kirke's "Vionnet" book. I am having some problems running into > scaling the patterns up without losing proportion. > > First - I looked through the book and can't find a scale - for those > who haven't had a chance to look at this fantastic book, none of the > patterns are on a grid, so I have no idea of scale. > > The second question has to do with mechanics - even if I could > figure out how big I need this to be, how would I enlarge the > pattern without destroying the proportion? The only thing I can > think of would be to project it on a wall to get the size I need and > then trace it off, but I don't have easy access to a wall large > enough, or a projector! > > Has anyone tried to do something similar to this? > OK, you're doing a cape, right? Then check the length of the pattern from the neck opening to the hem. For a 54" long cloak, the center back of the pattern would be 7" long. Basically, it means that the pattern is in 1/8th scale, and all the small measurements would be multiplied by 8. If you go to http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde , allow it to load, and scroll down from the small pictures, you'll see a link for patterns. On the pattern page, you'll see directions for the radiating method of enlarging patterns. You just need to know the scale. Does this make sense? If not, email me and I'll try to clarify anything. I make alot of my own patterns from scale ones. > > P.S. If anyone has tips on where to get long, wide sheets of paper, > I'd love to hear them. I'm considering calling up my local > newspaper! Newsprint works great, though for long gowns and such from the early periods, you will have to piece them together, but it's cheap paper, so I'm always willing to do that. In fact, I'm about due for some more again. But it's been something like 4 years since I last got any. Astrid Never argue with a dragon, for thou art crunchy and go well with Brie. http://www.geocities.com/tul_juriss - for links to ALL my current sites http://www.geocities.com/astridofthehorde - costumes I've made http://www.geocities.com/house_qul_mupwi - The noble Klingon House http://www.geocities.com/klingon_pirates_guild - The Klingon Pirate's Guild ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 18:11:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RMBLIO017042 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:11:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RMAd76000425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:10:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RMAcf7002721; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:10:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from eth0.a.smtp.sonic.net (eth0.a.smtp.sonic.net [64.142.16.244]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RMAZf8002653 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:10:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-209.sonic.net [209.148.112.209]) (authenticated bits=0)h8RJkeFQ025493 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:46:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3F75E9B8.3080107@lavoltapress.com> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:49:12 -0700 From: Fran Grimble User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >I'm currently brainstorming a cape made from one of the patterns in Betty Kirke's "Vionnet" book. I am having some problems running into scaling the patterns up without losing proportion. > >First - I looked through the book and can't find a scale - for those who haven't had a chance to look at this fantastic book, none of the patterns are on a grid, so I have no idea of scale. > That is because those patterns are not sized to any true scale. I asked the author about this once. Her goal seemed to be to explain Vionnet's pattern-making process, not to give scaled patterns. Fran ----------------------------------------- Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming http://www.lavoltapress.com Historic and Vintage Dance http://www.lavoltapress.com/dance _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 18:52:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RMq0IO017110 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:52:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RMnF76001895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:49:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RMn9f7018807; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:49:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RMn7f7018747 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:49:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.b2.22c6f82f (4560) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:48:53 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:48:53 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com You need to find what the lengths need to be for you. I don't know the pattern but measurements like CB neck to floor [is it floor length?] or to wherever the hem should come or across the shoulders in back, get them and assume the pattern should be that length. It may not actually be that [you may be shorter or taller] but it will be close. Once you get it up to that size, then you can refine it. Use the original pattern SHAPES as a guide. Just keep them looking about the same shape even if the proportions need to be a little different. As to getting it up to size, try to figure out what 1" should equal on the smaller pattern in the book. Is 1/4"=1" close? How about 1/8" = 1"? Or use metric if that seems to work easier [divided by 10s instead of 12s. There's no converting so it's really easy.] Or go to the local college library and see if you can use an opaque projector. Those big clunky things you used in elementary school. You can put a book in them. If all you can find at the library is a transparent projector, you can have the pattern Xeroxed onto a transparency at any printing place, like Alpha Graphics. Project it so it's that size it should be that you measured on yourself. A hallway can be useful here. But a lot of the time, you really don't need that long a distance. Go outside at night if you have to! This will still only give you a rough pattern that will need to be cleaned up and adjusted. Paper can be gotten at a printers or [depending on where you are] a paper company. When I worked for a print house, we used to call the local paper company and they'd come up with just about anything we asked for. The butcher may have some rolls of paper [though everything is wrapped in plastic these days] Party supply stores sometimes have paper for making banners. But remember: THE PATTERN IS JUST A START. The thing doesn't have to fit you perfectly directly from the pattern! You'll have to fit most things anyway. Don't angst so much over the pattern...get the SHAPES right. Make a mock up and fit it. Most of all, have fun. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 19:51:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RNpEIO017157 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:51:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RNoc76004689 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:50:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RNoWjx013667; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:50:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay2-f59.bay2.hotmail.com [65.54.247.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RNoTjx013617 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:50:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:50:24 -0700 Received: from 140.161.219.57 by by2fd.bay2.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:50:21 GMT X-Originating-IP: [140.161.219.57] X-Originating-Email: [moefen@hotmail.com] From: "" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:50:21 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Sep 2003 23:50:24.0624 (UTC) FILETIME=[1EC05700:01C38552] Subject: [h-cost] enlarging period patterns X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I have enlarged a few different Janet ARnold patterns for a few theatre costumes and this is what I have learned: For me, the easiest is kind of old technology: I use an overhead projector (like the kind at high school), and get my husband to photocopy the patterns onto transparencies. It usually takes two or three to get all the pieces of the pattern in whole pieces. Don't try to match them on the wall, it won't work. Level and true your overhead by projecting a grid, measure the squares on your wall or paper, to make sure the projection is even. Adjust by raising or lowering its little feet, or moving forward or back from the wall. The last projection was most successful: I scaled the pattern up a size that matched the actress's FRONT Width (that's the measure from armpit crease to armpit crease). I did this, instead of enlarging the grid from 1/8th of an inch to one inch on the wall, because usually the dresses in Arnold fit very small people. We are all a lot larger now a days. But I had also heard that shoulders, neck and armholes are hardest to fit, but also fluctuate less in size. So I matched that measurement, traced out the pattern (do it all at once, every single piece, you will not be able to do this again, if you move the projector), and then cut it out. The proportions for the neckline and shoulder stay the same. you won't have to do major grading work, as I had to on the others, and you probably won't end up with outsize shoulders if you go by a bust measurement. I did have to alter for length, bust, and waist and hips, but the altering was much easier... This is just my trial and error method, anyone else? Moira _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 19:58:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8RNw4IO017166 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:58:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RNvI76004986 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:57:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RNvH27016445; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:57:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from citrine.spiritone.com (citrine.spiritone.com [216.99.193.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8RNvD28016401 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:57:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by citrine.spiritone.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8RNxj1j018479 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:59:46 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:59:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <00c801c384cd$c6dd9b80$91cfadcb@michaela> Importance: Normal X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Michaela, Just after I wrote you from your website with a question that you had already answered (read _all_ the mail Regina, before you ask questions!) I did a search on Jacquerio only. I came up with a site on Slow Travelers Italy - Renaissance Frescos http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/notes/art/pk_frescoes.htm I hoped that it would have some of the frescos illustrated on-line, but no such luck. However, it did mention a two volume set of books by saying: "In my opinion, the best books about Italian Frescoes are a two volume set of large, expensive, full color books ($135 each). Because we love frescoes, and we travel all over Italy to see them, I bought these books. Steffi Roettgen, Italian Frescoes: The Early Renaissance 1400-1470, Abbeville Press Publishers, 1997. Steffi Roettgen, Italian Frescoes: The Flowering of the Renaissance 1470-1510, Abbeville Press Publishers, 1997. Each book describes what the author considers to be the significant frescoes of the time period. They have detailed descriptions of each fresco series and pages of beautiful photographs of them. I have listed the frescoes described in these two books. They are sorted by town within region. It is our personal goal to see each of these frescoes eventually." I checked Amazon, and they are Expensive!! However, I checked with WorldCat online service from my local county library, and, although this library doesn't have the books, about 356 associated libraries do! So, I just requested them via inter-library loan. For people who are interested in this time period of Italian costuming, you might want to do the same. Regina Romsey > > the full image is here: > http://glittersweet.com/1411frescojacqueriofull.jpg > As mentioned in a recent email... actually I'm typing them up together, no > idea which will go through first;) > > michaela > http://costumes.glittersweet.com > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 20:37:57 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S0buIO017241 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:37:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S0bB76006526 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:37:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S0bA27002263; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:37:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S0b627002240 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:37:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115])h8S0asrx012960 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:37:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030927194333.00a06b10@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:45:51 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? In-Reply-To: <3F75E9B8.3080107@lavoltapress.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fortunately, most of the pattern pieces that Vionnet used were very simple shapes and should be easier to enlarge than most tailored garment patterns. Sheryl N-D At 12:49 PM 9/27/03 -0700, you wrote: >That is because those patterns are not sized to any true scale. I asked >the author about this once. Her goal seemed to be to explain Vionnet's >pattern-making process, not to give scaled patterns. >Fran _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 20:54:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S0sbIO017260 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:54:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S0s376007238 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:54:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S0s127009527; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:54:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S0rx27009472 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:54:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fenris.net (12-246-237-231.client.attbi.com[12.246.237.231]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2003092800535401400feqibe>; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:53:54 +0000 Message-ID: <3F76312B.5010403@fenris.net> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:54:03 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books References: <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net><4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com><200309242120.45611.cathy@thyrsus.com><002b01c3849e$714125e0$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> <3F75D834.DC365685@in-tch.com> <001a01c3852d$4c6adc40$6b5183d1@rmitchellras> In-Reply-To: <001a01c3852d$4c6adc40$6b5183d1@rmitchellras> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Lloyd Mitchell (Kathleen) wrote: >Having just spent most of the day reshelving my library, I came across my >copy of MS Brooks and was struck anew with the primitive illustrations. They >make Peacock look like an "Old Master'. If I take time to read the chapters, >I wonder how far off she was, given the scholarship of the time.(Pub. when?) >Of more interest to me, I rediscovered the following. Any comments? >Calthrop, English Costume, 4 volumes, 1906 > > > Oh good grief! I have that one (calthrop) but in one volume. I was fascinated by it when I was a kid. I have it because it is a rare book, not because it is a costume book. The drawings are beautiful watercolors (I think) but they seem to have little to do with historical costume. liz young _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 21:29:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S1T2IO017332 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:29:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S1SM76008898 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:28:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S1SK47023045; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:28:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from obsidian.spiritone.com (obsidian.spiritone.com [216.99.193.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S1SI48023033 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:28:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0)h8S1dlpT016413 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:39:48 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "H-Costume" Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:30:50 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <3F75580C.28862.F334FA8@localhost> Importance: Normal Subject: [h-cost] Dressing Renaissance Florence X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Kat, If you haven't gotten this book yet I highly recommend it. Dressing Renaissance Florence; Families, Fortunes, and Fine Clothing, Carole Collier Frick, The Johns Hopkins University Studies in Historical and Political Science 120th Series (2002) I found it fascinating, but I'm no expert. Ms. Frick could be the Iris Brooke of the textile historians and I wouldn't know, but considering who is publishing the book, I rather doubt it. She defines the fabric perpigniano in the glossary as: "Woolen jersey cloth made in many colors, used mainly for hosiery worn by men, which originated in the town of Perpignan France. However, in the Arenti ricordanza, f.59V, a gamurra for a girl is also recorded as fashioned of 'perpigniano azurro con maniche di velluto verde'; the Dominican friars also occasionally made their toniche of perpigniano cupo." In the text she mentions it on page 45 as "a washable and stretchy woolen jersey fabric, originally developed by weavers in Perpignan, France. Hidetoshi Hoshino has shown, however, that by the Quattrocento, Florentine production of perpignano [her spelling occasionally changes for reasons I don't understand] increased to accommodate the growing market." There are also Appendices for Currency and Measures in Renaissance Florence, categories of Clothiers, cloth required for selected garments, and the inventory of two Minerbetti trousseaux. The book has a wonderful bibliography, a good glossary and wonderful notes. Unfortunately a couple of things that she breezes by in the text aren't explained in either the notes or the glossary. No color pictures, but the illustrations are well known paintings. I'd prefer to have the book less expensive and go to art books or the WebGallery for the color pics. Regina Now to go back and find the places I had questions marked since I dropped the book and lost all the little bits of paper I had stuck in! Next time I take a book on a business trip, I'll put in a baggie with post-it notes! > Cool! > > Regina, you will share what you learn with us, won't you?! > > Of course, some of their textiles (at least on the bias) were a lot > stretchier than our fabrics of the same fibre. It has to do with how > the fibre is handled and how the textile is processed. > > Kat > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 21:51:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S1p2IO017361 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:51:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S1oO76009744 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:50:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S1oM47001939; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:50:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from grunt3.ihug.co.nz (grunt3.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S1oH47001901 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:50:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from p38-max20.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.118.161.102] by grunt3.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A3QhS-0002R7-00; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:50:15 +1200 Message-ID: <008001c38562$dd169600$66a176cb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <00b601c384ca$a0571e30$91cfadcb@michaela> <3F75D540.261F56AE@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sanchez-Coello question Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:50:14 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > Or maybe it's a combination of both, and it's just not obvious with the > darkness of the online image? I must say, the stuff I've seen that's at > all similar (either in portraits or extant garments like Eleanor of > Toledo's burial gown) are embroidery done on strips, and not on the > garment itself. > Having typed that, of course, I fully expect a flood of pictures > showing me where I'm wrong, but that's half the fun of this list! *grin* Most of what I've seen has been not in strips;) Mind you it's suggested that Eleanora's was originally on another gown before this.. perhaps directly applied to it? I never did work that one out. Mind you I don't own the book;) And it's been ages since I really looked specifically at her garment. I did recently have images of a child's Spanish dress from Payne's book on my site, but I took them down as I'm trying to get my European trip on my website and have been clearing out files... That was a mix of direct applied embroidery and especially made trim... though you could call it piecing rather than trim as it was on the same fabric as the dress and was probably more for ease of working than actually a trim as such. That "trim" was also really only for the skirt (guard type things... it was made to look like the skirt was split, but it wasn't.) And looking through the V&A book it's nearly all surface manipulation with embroidery and surface manipulation... cord and such. I suppose you could call couched cord a trim... there really is a spectrum here, and trim for some may not be trim for others. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 21:51:47 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S1plIO017364 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:51:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S1p576009775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:51:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S1p547002263; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:51:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web80109.mail.yahoo.com (web80109.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.169.82]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8S1p347002245 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:51:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030928015103.66886.qmail@web80109.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.114.230.174] by web80109.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:51:03 PDT Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:51:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jennifer Fleury To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200309272211.h8RMBSf8003071@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Re: long paper X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com For long paper, try someplace like "Smart-n-Final", "Costco" or "Sam's Club", the bulk food warehouses. They sell rolls of butcher paper, I used to use it for absolutely everything. You'll have to buy a big roll, but you'll never run out! Jennifer Fleury Guild Master 2003-2004 The Guild of St. Augustine www.guildofstaugustine.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 22:29:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S2TcIO017440 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:29:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S2Sw76011219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:28:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S2Sus7015875; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:28:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from topcat.systemsfirm.net (pcp822378pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.49.41.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S2Sps7015845 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:28:51 -0600 (MDT) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:28:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Thread-Topic: Re: Vionnet patterns (was: Enlarging patterns from books) Thread-Index: AcOFZ49jVXfdpl5rRY+lkLTk/+WOcw== From: "A.Thurman" To: "Historic Costume List (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8S2Sps7015845 Subject: [h-cost] Re: Vionnet patterns (was: Enlarging patterns from books) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fran Grimble wrote: That is because those patterns are not sized to any true scale. I asked the author about this once. Her goal seemed to be to explain Vionnet's pattern-making process, not to give scaled patterns. Fran - At least now I know that I wasn't missing anything re: possible scale. - The pattern in question seems to be modified quarter-circles (quadrants), with darts and vents for shape and to accommodate the hood (which is a triangle). There is a center back marked, but I suspect that the hood takes up some of that length. - So, my tentative plan is to use the front edge as a starting point, and make it's length the same as my own front neck-floor measurement. Once I know the ratio of the length on the pattern to my own physical measurement, I should have some idea of how long to draw the other lines - the pattern is mostly straight lines with a curved hem, and maybe I can use a kind of string and pencil compass to make that line. - Does this sound even remotely like it would work? - Also, thanks y'all the suggestion of calling a printer for their "butt rolls" - I will look up a few places locally and see what they offer. How much do they usually charge? - Allison T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Sep 27 23:17:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S3HWIO017516 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:17:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S3Gn76013189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:16:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S3Glgw002386; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:16:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8S3Gjgw002378 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:16:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 95764 invoked by uid 1005); 28 Sep 2003 03:16:30 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.079736 secs); 28 Sep 2003 03:16:30 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.079736 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 28 Sep 2003 03:16:30 -0000 Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:16:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bumrolls and farthingales -- together or not? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030927162148.00aefe40@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030927231049.K26054-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII cc: elizabethanClothing@yahoogroups.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hmm...in Elizabeth's wardrobe accounts, mention of rolls as an integral part of the skirts of french gowns--most likely sewn in-- are more common than not, from the late 60s through the 70s. Buckram (glue-stiffened canvas) and frieze (a heavy wool) are commonly used in the skirt pleats of these gowns as well. Farthingales were listed throughout the same time period, and were presumably worn with these gowns. Not until 1580 did I find a listing for a separate "roll" in the wardrobe accounts..and that was made to accompany a half-farthingale. I'm currently working on a bent rope farthingale, and the next french gown I have will be thickly lined with wool & buckram in the pleats, with an additional small roll stitched to the inside of the pleats...I'll bet this will give the right look. Good luck, Drea On Sat, 27 Sep 2003, Brenda wrote: > I've spent some time recently working with trying to fix some problems in > my farthingale, and checking skirts with bumroll, farthingale, and both, > trying to figure out the apparent angles and proportions. (For reference, > both farthingale and bumroll are from Margo's Underpinnings package.) > > I notice that if I wear the (crescent-shaped) bumroll alone, I get a very > good "middle to mid-late period" look, and if I wear the farthingale alone > I get a very good "early period look". The few images I've seen of the > "bumroll" look have the hem of the skirt stick out no further than the > bumroll (thinking particularly of the one French funeral bronze in Boucher; > I don't have the book to-hand to give the exact reference). > > What historical evidence do we have that bumroll and farthingale were worn > *together*? Or is that just a renfaire-ism? > > > > Brenda > webwarren@earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 01:28:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S5SZIO017960 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:28:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S5Rp76018448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:27:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S5RnhO018213; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:27:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp-int-01.mx.pitdc1.stargate.net (smtp-int-01.mx.pitdc1.stargate.net [206.210.69.149]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S5RghP018173 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK) for ; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:27:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 19243 invoked from network); 28 Sep 2003 05:27:40 -0000 Received: from dap-208-166-66-175.erie-tnt-1.pa.erie.net (HELO castlebooks) ([208.166.66.175]) (envelope-sender )SMTP for ; 28 Sep 2003 05:27:40 -0000 Message-ID: <000701c38581$3cecc090$af42a6d0@castlebooks> From: "Janet Davis" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Thanks, and another question Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:27:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Actually, you should buy the book Wanda mentioned because it really is worth $135.00. I scanned the relevent portions of the fresco and posted it at http://www.medievalbookstore.com/fountain%20of%20youth.htm . I think the person in the green and red is, if not a woman, a girl. None of the young men are wearing long gowns and her cap is similier to that of the lady in the green houplande being kissed by the guy on a horse. Janet Janet Davis Castle Furnishings http://www.medievalbookstore.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 02:14:48 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S6EmIO018060 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:14:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S6E376020266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:14:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S6E2JK003834; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:14:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f29.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.11.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S6DwJK003806 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:13:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:13:53 -0700 Received: from 12.231.218.121 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 06:13:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [12.231.218.121] X-Originating-Email: [distantdesigns@hotmail.com] From: "Jennifer Sena" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: long paper Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:13:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2003 06:13:53.0496 (UTC) FILETIME=[B11B9580:01C38587] X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >>For long paper, try someplace like "Smart-n-Final", "Costco" or "Sam's >>Club", the bulk food warehouses. They sell rolls of butcher paper, I used >>to use it for absolutely everything. You'll have to buy a big roll, but >>you'll never run out! > >You can also try local newspapers. They will often give away roll ends of >unprinted paper. A friend of mine just got five roll ends for packing >dishes and it didn't cost her a dime. Jennifer Sena Distant Designs http://home.teleport.com/~cedric/distdesi I wont hurt you, I just want to dress you up!! _________________________________________________________________ Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 03:11:30 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8S7BTIO018110 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 03:11:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S7A976021858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:10:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S7A4v3023534; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:10:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from gw.retro.com (gw.retro.com [205.179.181.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8S7A0v3023494 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:10:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by gw.retro.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h8S7BNO17379 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:11:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Lee Thompson-Herbert Message-Id: <200309280711.h8S7BNO17379@gw.retro.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] enlarging patterns from books? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com You can buy a cheapie opaque projector from Dharma Trading. It handles a 4"x4" square of paper at a time, so you have to move the projector to handle larger patterns (like a full book page). Silk painters use these things all the time. It's a whole $25, so not much of a loss if you decide you don't love it. http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/1967-AA.shtml Lee M.Thompson-Herbert lee@retro.com KoX 1995, SP4 Head Muso, White Rats Morris, Faultline Morris Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades. "A head-on collision between Morticia Adams and Martha Stewart" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 09:24:10 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SDO9IO031361 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:24:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SDN876003999 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:23:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SDN6gZ015934; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:23:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SDN3gZ015903 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:23:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1A3bVu-000NMF-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:23:03 +0100 Message-ID: <6EP43+F1vgd$IwTA@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:15:17 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] tv ad eye-candy References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Heather Rose Jones wrote >Has anyone else (I guess this would be USA only) been admiring the HP >image-enhancement-services ads sporting what I take to be an early 17th >c. Dutch painting come to life? (I'm embarrassed to confess that I >don't recognize the painting/painter, but I'm reasonably confident >about the time/place.) It's the one with the young boy running through >the streets, if that twigs anyone's memory. > >It's not my era to be good on specifics, but as a costume generalist, I >was quite impressed with the clothing ... and there was a good deal of >it. > >Heather We've got it too (maybe only on cable, I don't take note of what channel I'm watching). It is really gorgeous, isn't it? Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 09:24:12 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SDOCIO031364 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:24:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SDNg76004020 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:23:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SDNggZ016071; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:23:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SDN3gZ015904 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:23:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1A3bVu-000NMG-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:23:03 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:19:16 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Green Dress References: <20030926201434.23117.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030926201434.23117.qmail@web14005.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mmmm, nice! I've never seen that way of treating a transparent veil before, with that crinkled effect. Jean Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote >http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?500+0+0 >This is an interesting portrait by Girolamo di >Benvenuto. I wish I could get a better look at the >pattern of the sleeve fabric. > >===== >Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit > >________________________________________________________________________ >Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! >Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 09:55:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SDt7IO031454 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:55:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SDsO76005077 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:54:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SDsNgZ025503; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:54:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SDsLgZ025468 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:54:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8SDrxdP025333 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:54:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030928094315.03bd0ec8@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:53:27 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Bumrolls and farthingales -- together or not? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Drea Leed responded to my question: >Hmm...in Elizabeth's wardrobe accounts, mention of rolls as an integral >part of the skirts of french gowns--most likely sewn in-- are more common >than not, from the late 60s through the 70s. Buckram (glue-stiffened >canvas) and frieze (a heavy wool) are commonly used in the skirt pleats of >these gowns as well. Farthingales were listed throughout the same time >period, and were presumably worn with these gowns. Was Queen Bess (or were her subjects) wearing more styles than just the French gown at that time? Just as I have some tops that require a racer-back bra, some that require a strapless bra, some that require a long-line bra, and some that require one or another shape of "traditional" bra, I would imagine that the Great Wardrobe (and the wardrobes of any of the better-heeled women of the time) would have the proper underpinnings for *each* of the styles Her Grace (or the noblewoman in question) was currently wearing, if she was in the habit of wearing various different styles of garment. Without more specific detail, can one reasonably "presume" one way or the other? >I'm currently working on a bent rope farthingale, and the next french gown >I have will be thickly lined with wool & buckram in the pleats, with an >additional small roll stitched to the inside of the pleats...I'll bet this >will give the right look. Quite possibly, since the bent-rope farthingale will presumably be not nearly as stiff as a metal, reed, or plastic-tubing hooped farthingale. Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 12:21:07 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SGL6IO031736 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:21:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGKP76010793 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:20:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGKNfN017682; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:20:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGKKfO017655 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:20:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8SGKqT0020049 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:20:52 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8SGKqt4020047 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:20:52 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bumrolls and farthingales -- together or not? Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:20:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030928094315.03bd0ec8@mail.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030928094315.03bd0ec8@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309281220.51927.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sunday 28 September 2003 09:53 am, Brenda wrote: > Drea Leed responded to my question: [snip] > Was Queen Bess (or were her subjects) wearing more styles than just the > French gown at that time? Someone with access to Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked can answer this more authoritatively, but I remember seeing references to her also wearing Italian style gowns as late as the late 1590s. I would be surprised if her wardrobe did not include multiple gown styles at any given period. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 12:32:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SGWQIO031792 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:32:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGVe76011372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:31:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGVdfN022204; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:31:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web14002.mail.yahoo.com (web14002.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8SGVZfN022174 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:31:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030928163135.22483.qmail@web14002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.31.227.85] by web14002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:31:35 BST Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:31:35 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Catalina=20Sanabria=20Rosado?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another nice dress To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F75955F.AA4B1B53@in-tch.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Actually my question was intended to ask if anyone had actually seen the colour of the original. It could be a teal type blue. I was wondering about the quality of the scanned image. --- Sue Clemenger wrote: > I'd imagine so. There are other examples of women > portrayed with green > dresses. > --sue > > Catalina Sanabria Rosado wrote: > > > > > http://www.comune.roma.it/museicapitolini/pinacoteca/visita/sala3_savoldo.htm > > > > This dress also appears green on the outer dress. > Does > > anyone know if it really is? > > > > ===== > > Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? > Get the FREE Yahoo! > > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ===== Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 12:51:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SGpwIO031897 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:51:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGpG76012156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:51:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGpFfN029398; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:51:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGpDfN029360 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:51:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip142.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.142]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDEF36A622 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:46:51 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:51:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books Message-ID: <3F76AF06.31173.146F1029@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <000d01c3851f$03b24140$6f5183d1@rmitchellras> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I > still maintain that JQPublic doesn't give a hoot re the historicity > of a period costume. Heck, most of them still haven't gotten the > difference between 1800 and the Eighteenth Century! A visual timeline > by Peacock or anyone else will be their only connection between the > costume they have in mind and its appropriateness to the era required. > I often see people cruising the fabric stores with pattern in hand, > looking for the duplicate fabric as pictured in the cover. While it is true that most of them don't have any clue about historicity, why lead them astray using something like Peacock (with his silouettes that are just wrong)? Even amongst the older books there are ones which are better such as the Cunnington and Cunnington books. They give pictures too, but they do it with the lines correct. > They don't > do well with spatial concepts. As an interpreter of period fashion, I > can and do help them toward a more real approach to coming closer to > the right choices for line, color, pattern/ornamentation, trim, fabric > choices, and etc. Every costume cannot, and should not be only > replicas of 'known models'. Such labors of love have a legitimate > place in Historical Costume, but not every situation can demand such > an exactitude. Kathleen While it's true that not everything can be done to "exactitude", I still think it is leading people astray to point them to really bad books (especially ones with the silouettes so inaccurate.) Shoot, Gorsline and Braun&Schneider are better than that! I call these "survey books." But better still would be to point them to things which can also be used as survey books such as the Visual History series. They are books with *real* pictures to give them ideas and they also have an explanation (not always what I would have said, but better than Peacock) for what they are seeing. I suspect that what we need are more books like Visual History or more illustrators like the one used by Cunnington and Cunnington (but before CW died since he made sure that her drawings were not "off".) Sometimes it's a lot harder to correct misconceptions than to try to get the appropriate information into their hands in the first place. This is something that Kass McGann was also trying to get across. We can cut corners by doing things like simplifying patterns (as in Holkeboer vs Hill & Bucknell, or using some of the better Simplicity and McCalls patterns instead of the "fantasy" patterns they also do), using sewing machines instead of hand stitching everything, using manufactured trim instead of hand embroidering, using plastic and glass (rather than gold and jewels), etc. But we should at least show people things that won't lead them badly astray. And most of the people we are talking about are people who want to do *historic* costume as opposed to fantasy or Halloween costumes. Why not give them a good basis to work from? Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 12:52:06 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SGq6IO031900 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:52:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGpU76012174 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:51:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGpTfN029500; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:51:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SGpHfN029415 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:51:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip142.13-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.13.142]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E2F6A623 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:46:56 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 09:51:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dressing Renaissance Florence Message-ID: <3F76AF06.13842.146F0F2F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <3F75580C.28862.F334FA8@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > If you haven't gotten this book yet I highly recommend it. Dressing > Renaissance Florence; Families, Fortunes, and Fine Clothing, Carole > Collier Frick, The Johns Hopkins University Studies in Historical and > Political Science 120th Series (2002) Yes, I have it. However, I keep it in my "Italy, social history" section rather than in my Italian costuming section. (But then, I keep my account books in the history section of their time period, rather than with the costuming books too. Except for the Janet Arnold books, which I keep together.) (The Italian section right now has a couple of dresses hung in front of it so I didn't find it when I first looked for it.) > I found it fascinating, but I'm no expert. Ms. Frick could be the > Iris > Brooke of the textile historians and I wouldn't know, but considering > who is publishing the book, I rather doubt it. One way to tell is to look at her footnotes and Bibliography. Her are full of things like "Two consilia on Widows' Rights" Bulletin of Medieval Canon Law, as opposed to citing works like Caltrop, Peacock, Brookes and the like. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 13:42:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SHg3IO032015 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:42:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SHfP76014122 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:41:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SHfM1U018239; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:41:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SHfI1U018174 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:41:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a251.in-tch.com [66.62.107.51]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8SHKnb14040 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:20:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F771DC3.3F38FDD9@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:43:31 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bumrolls and farthingales -- together or not? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030928094315.03bd0ec8@mail.earthlink.net> <200309281220.51927.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Arnold actually devotes a whole chapter to imported styles--including, IIRC, French, Italian, Spanish, and Polish or Hungarian (having a brain lapse on the last). --sue Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > On Sunday 28 September 2003 09:53 am, Brenda wrote: > > Drea Leed responded to my question: > [snip] > > > Was Queen Bess (or were her subjects) wearing more styles than just the > > French gown at that time? > > Someone with access to Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked can answer this > more authoritatively, but I remember seeing references to her also wearing > Italian style gowns as late as the late 1590s. I would be surprised if her > wardrobe did not include multiple gown styles at any given period. > > -- > Cathy Raymond > > "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." > --Ozy and Millie > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 14:59:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SIxVIO032213 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:59:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SIwg76017376 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:58:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SIwccG018269; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:58:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from lakemtao02.cox.net (lakemtao02.cox.net [68.1.17.243]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SIwZcG018228 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 12:58:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from VMAAHQ ([68.96.201.18]) by lakemtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20030928185830.LEGT10677.lakemtao02.cox.net@VMAAHQ> for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:58:30 -0400 From: "Linda Rice" To: Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:57:58 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c385f2$79d492a0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Subject: [h-cost] RE: tv ad eye candy X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Ok, I went looking for this ad- I've yet to see it here- and I found this way cool new thing for the National Gallery of London: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/hpads/2002/index.html (scroll down to the box that says "voice of the customer", click on the NGL link) Now THIS is cool! I can't wait until all the major museums start doing this. There is also a link to HP's television ads, and I think the one Heather is referring to is also for the National Gallery. Pax, ::Linda:: _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 15:14:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SJEFIO032242 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:14:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SJDU76018010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:13:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SJDUcG023807; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:13:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SJDRcG023779 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:13:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f88.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.136]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F32E480165 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:13:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c385f4$d23e7990$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:15:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Subject: [h-cost] tv ad eye candy X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Linda. Thanks for the link. In deed it is fantastic world we are living in. Everything gets better and better teckniqueally. There is many things that gets better and better. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 17:45:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SLj2IO032664 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:45:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SLiI76024937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:44:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SLi9Xo026811; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:44:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SLi6Xo026768 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:44:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 0020830266 (12-248-149-227.client.attbi.com[12.248.149.227]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <2003092821440011100mr6aae> (Authid: ladysarafina@att.net); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:44:00 +0000 Message-ID: <00bf01c38609$8b2521c0$e395f80c@attbi.com> From: "Sarafina Sinclair" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030927231049.K26054-100000@shell.siscom.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bumrolls and farthingales -- together or not? Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:43:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1123 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1123 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Note: I do not have any evidence to back this up, just my own conjecture. The bumroll as we wear them today, I believe, is a bastardization of the french farthingale (giant padded roll worn at the end of the 16th century). The Spanish farthingale - which is a underskirt/slip stiffened with reeds - was worn from the beginning of the 1500s well into the 1580s (and probably later because not everyone changes what they wear just because it becomes unfashionable). The French farthingale - which is actually a "rolle of cotton" - becomes fashionable around the 1580s and the silhouette of skirts changes. Also, the shape of the Spanish farthingale is important because what most women wear now for hoop skirts does not have the same shape as the period example in Alcega. In a modern hoop skirt, the grain of the slip is on the straight and the hoop wire is set so that the hoops can collapse inside each other. In the Alcega farthingale, each seam is a straight grain, connected to a bias grain. This forces the farthingale to be flatter in the front and fuller near the buttocks, creating the look you see is late 16th century portraits. I think that most recreationists (and I am guilty of this too, although I have decreased the circumference of my hoops) end up with a skirt silhouette that is more 1950s than Elizabethan. What may have happened is that someone in the 1800s may have been looking back at these two styles of farthingale and assumed that they were worn together because they have similar names. In the QEWU, Walter Fyshe (Elizabeth's tailor) talks about padding pleats at the waistline. If we know that pleats are padded, it is not a huge leap for padded pleats at the waist to [incorrectly perhaps] become a padded roll at the waist. In fact, it may be (and of course now I will have to conduct this experiment and post pictures) that padded pleats and pleats laying over a padded roll look very similar in the finish product. Wearing a bumroll under a Tudor or early Elizabethan gown will not give you the desired look in my opinion. I think the bumroll and farthingale combination is best for the late 1500s (1580s and on). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lady Sarafina Sinclair, CW, APF http://ladysarafina.home.att.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 19:31:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8SNVVIO000407 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:31:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SNSL76029726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:28:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8SNSJDs010534; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:28:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.11.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8SNSFDs010477 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:28:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-64-165-71-69.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO elizabethanlady.com) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@64.165.71.69 with plain) by smtp1.mail.vip.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Sep 2003 23:28:09 -0000 Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:25:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bumrolls and farthingales -- together or not? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) From: Sarah To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <00bf01c38609$8b2521c0$e395f80c@attbi.com> Message-Id: <19C88E31-F20B-11D7-9968-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I attempted to answer this debate when I wrote "Farthingales & Bumrolls: An Informal Research Paper" (http://www.elizabethanlady.com/farthingales.html) a couple of years back. The paper seriously needs revision, but the information within is still accurate (although it's missing crucial things like footnotes... Bad Sarah, no chocolate!). Brenda mentioned to me that my paper confused her, causing her to assume that I was arguing that bumrolls didn't exist. This is true, in a way... The bumroll, a'la Winter & Savoy, didn't exist. The bum rowel referenced by Ben Jonson in "The Poetaster" c. 1601 must have existed, but it's far too late to be considered suitable for the era that most people assume it was used (1530's onward). Robin Netherton, who I have actually quoted in my article, has taken the next step and researched the connection between the French farthingale (ie. an overly huge version of the "bumroll") and the supposed wheel farthingale. My little paper touches on some of her research where it applies to my overall argument. And by the way, Robin, I still have those critiques you sent me a couple of years ago! One of these days I swear I'm going to revise the paper! Honest! ;) The paper also touches on the experimentation with padding pleats, pleating methods and so forth. Hope this helps! Sarah On Sunday, September 28, 2003, at 02:43 PM, Sarafina Sinclair wrote: > Note: I do not have any evidence to back this up, just my own > conjecture. > > The bumroll as we wear them today, I believe, is a bastardization of > the > french farthingale (giant padded roll worn at the end of the 16th > century). > The Spanish farthingale - which is a underskirt/slip stiffened with > reeds - > was worn from the beginning of the 1500s well into the 1580s (and > probably > later because not everyone changes what they wear just because it > becomes > unfashionable). The French farthingale - which is actually a "rolle of > cotton" - becomes fashionable around the 1580s and the silhouette of > skirts > changes. Also, the shape of the Spanish farthingale is important > because > what most women wear now for hoop skirts does not have the same shape > as the > period example in Alcega. In a modern hoop skirt, the grain of the > slip is > on the straight and the hoop wire is set so that the hoops can collapse > inside each other. In the Alcega farthingale, each seam is a straight > grain, > connected to a bias grain. This forces the farthingale to be flatter > in the > front and fuller near the buttocks, creating the look you see is late > 16th > century portraits. I think that most recreationists (and I am guilty > of this > too, although I have decreased the circumference of my hoops) end up > with a > skirt silhouette that is more 1950s than Elizabethan. > > What may have happened is that someone in the 1800s may have been > looking > back at these two styles of farthingale and assumed that they were worn > together because they have similar names. In the QEWU, Walter Fyshe > (Elizabeth's tailor) talks about padding pleats at the waistline. If > we know > that pleats are padded, it is not a huge leap for padded pleats at the > waist > to [incorrectly perhaps] become a padded roll at the waist. In fact, > it may > be (and of course now I will have to conduct this experiment and post > pictures) that padded pleats and pleats laying over a padded roll look > very > similar in the finish product. > > Wearing a bumroll under a Tudor or early Elizabethan gown will not > give you > the desired look in my opinion. I think the bumroll and farthingale > combination is best for the late 1500s (1580s and on). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Lady Sarafina Sinclair, CW, APF > http://ladysarafina.home.att.net > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _________________________________________________ http://www.elizabethanlady.com "Those who are willing to sacrifice their basic liberties to assure their security daserve neither..." Benjamin Franklin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Sep 28 20:26:09 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8T0Q9IO000541 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:26:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T0PN76002626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:25:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T0PLkS005793; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:25:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T0PGkS005747 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:25:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA30118 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:47:53 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:47:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bumrolls and farthingales -- together or not? In-Reply-To: <19C88E31-F20B-11D7-9968-0003934DD4B0@elizabethanlady.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sun, 28 Sep 2003, Sarah wrote: > Robin Netherton, who I have actually quoted in my article, has taken > the next step and researched the connection between the French > farthingale (ie. an overly huge version of the "bumroll") and the > supposed wheel farthingale. My little paper touches on some of her > research where it applies to my overall argument. And I'm now reworking my paper on this to include the additional material I've picked up over the last few years. I'm hoping I'll be able to publish this -- finally -- in the new Medieval Clothing & Textiles journal. My early version of the paper passed peer review and is essentially publishable, but people (particularly Drea Leed and Lisa Sinervo) have been kind enough to send me new quotes and cites that I'm just aching to work in for some added support. For now, you can read a collection of some of my earlier posts on this topic on my not-quite-a-webpage at http://www.netherton.net/robin . > And by the way, Robin, I still have those critiques you sent me a > couple of years ago! One of these days I swear I'm going to revise > the paper! Honest! ;) Tee hee... I know how you feel! --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 00:42:03 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8T4dNIO001003 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:39:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T4cX76015020 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:38:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T4cUlv016358; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:38:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jetspin.drizzle.com (jetspin.drizzle.com [216.162.192.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T4cRlw016322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:38:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from negoth (12-235-148-217.client.attbi.com [12.235.148.217]) (authenticated bits=0) by jetspin.drizzle.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8T4SUQ4026739 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:28:30 -0700 From: "Sablerose" To: Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:43:28 -0700 Message-ID: <011c01c38644$41843f70$0200a8c0@redmond.corp.microsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Greetings to the list, I've been lurking for a bit, but now I find myself in need of your experience and advice :> I've been making cotehardies for a couple of years, but I've been doing it from patterns and without a lining. My next project is going to be one cut to fit on a slight variant of Robin Netherton's theories(thank you for the information on your website!). I've always used natural fibers and I have a feel for the correct weight for the top layer, but I'm at sea on the lining. I'm ordering some 5.3 oz linen from fabric-stores.com for the outer layer, but what weight would be best for the lining? Is the 3.5 sufficient or should I go with the 5.3 for this as well? What about color? Is it best to stick to neutrals? For that matter, what lining material would you recommend when using wool for the outer layer? I've got good linen chemises so I'm not concerned about scratch, but bulk could be an issue. I've got 11 yards of Mill End's Carpet wool I'm hoping to work up in to a warm dress this winter, but I'm trying to decide between silk noil and linen for lining. Thank you in advance for any advice you can offer. Tayla _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 02:45:14 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8T6jAIO002847 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 02:45:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T6iS76019120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:44:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T6iSLm029660; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:44:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T6iOLm029630 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:44:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA31308 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 02:07:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 02:07:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <011c01c38644$41843f70$0200a8c0@redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Sun, 28 Sep 2003, Sablerose wrote: > I'm ordering some 5.3 oz linen from fabric-stores.com for the outer > layer, but what weight would be best for the lining? Is the 3.5 > sufficient or should I go with the 5.3 for this as well? Well, if it were me ;-) I'd use that linen for the lining and go straight for wool for the outer layer. If you're worried about heat, a thin worsted suiting wool will actually be more comfortable than linen (I've tested this in 100-degree heat). And it will look and wear SO much better. Plus there's no evidence they used linen for outer layers in these garments, but much evidence that they used wool, year-round, and occasionally silk if they could afford it. But finding a suitable silk is very, very hard today, and wool will still be easier to work with and wear better. But I do recognize that a lot of people still feel happier with linen for purely modern reasons, and I'm not going to criticize you if you make that choice, as long as you're doing it as an intentional compromise. There's no question that linen makes the perfect lining. As to weight: A lot depends on how hard a job it's going to do. I'm not good at translating numerical weights into fabrics, but you want something that's stronger than chemise linen, and not transparent -- it's going to do most of the work of holding you up, so it's got to have some strength to it. Very, very large women will be happier with linen that's almost canvas-weight. For myself, I go with something about the weight of denim jeans. Wash the heck out of it, to take care of any shrinkage (minimal with linen) and to soften it up. Be forewarned that linen is extremely flexible -- this is great on the body, but can be a royal pain in cutting out. It will crawl across the room if you turn your back. Mark and pin and baste more than you would think necessary; you won't regret it. > What about color? Is it best to stick to neutrals? Evidence suggests that it was typical to use linen undyed, but that medieval people did dye linen in some circumstances (though not necessarily for clothing). Some extant garments have dyed linen linings, but not from this period that I know of, and it would be very unwise to consider those particular garments as typical. Manuscript paintings often show the lining of an *overdress* as a dyed fabric (if it isn't fur), but this might be silk ... and the overdress lining is expected to show. By contrast, we rarely see the lining of the underdress fabric. Logic suggests that few people would waste dyed fabric on a lining that is never seen. My top choices would be a "natural" color, a white (linen is easy to bleach) or a light blue or light yellow, as woad and weld were possibly the most likely dyes to use for linen, and dyeing linen a dark color was, while possible, a likely waste as it wouldn't hold the color long. Another plus to having undyed lining: It won't bleed onto your chemise. (I will never line an underdress in red again, having learned my lesson.) > For that matter, what lining material would you recommend when using > wool for the outer layer? Linen! The few documentary references I've seen that indicate lining fabric for basic body garments have cited mostly linen, occasionally silk, and occasionally more wool (the latter being garments for church dependents, though, and thus meant to be durable but not rich). I've tried using worsted wool as a lining, and I've found it to be too springy/stretchy. Linen provides more support on the inside, while the springiness of the wool does a nice job on the outside of hiding any tension lines in the fabric. > I've got good linen chemises so I'm not concerned about scratch, but > bulk could be an issue. I've got 11 yards of Mill End's Carpet wool > I'm hoping to work up in to a warm dress this winter, but I'm trying > to decide between silk noil and linen for lining. Definitely linen. Noil is trash; my understanding is that it would not have been used in this period outside of the silk-producing areas, such as Italy, where the waste silk would have been sold locally (though I'm looking forward to learning more from some people who have been working on silk trade data). I've used noil as a linen substitute for linings, back when I didn't have a good source of linen, and I can testify that the real linen works up much, much better ... and it's more accurate to period. You'll also be more comfortable. --Robin now midway through a new fitted dress eyelets done, body done tomorrow: sleeves! then 40 hand-done buttonholes & buttons _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 03:02:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8T72BIO002983 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:02:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T6ap76018902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:36:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T6alLm026555; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:36:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.11.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8T6ahLm026503 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 00:36:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-119-193-215.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@67.119.193.215 with login) by smtp1.mail.vip.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 2003 06:36:38 -0000 Message-ID: <000a01c38654$079e1000$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:36:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Auction catalogs on ebay X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8T72BIO002983 Shameless commercial plug: I just listed some auction catalogs on ebay that might be of interest to people on this list: - one lot of 2 art catalogs: British Paintings & Watercolors (lots of 17th century portraits) and American Genre Paintings (lots of 19th century street scenes and depictions of everyday life). - one lot of 2 jewelry catalogs -- lots of color and black and white shots of vintage jewelry, most Victorian through Art Deco. There's also a big piece (6.75 yards) of red/blue plaid taffeta, if anyone's thinking about making a Dicken's dress! If you're interested, search for seller "tweedlebop" or go to: http://tinyurl.com/p0h9 - Kendra http://demode.tweedlebop.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 03:19:27 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8T7JLIO003142 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 03:19:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T7Id76019864 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 01:18:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T7IcsV011043; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 01:18:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8T7IasV010982 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 01:18:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (213-78-124-136.friaco.onetel.net.uk [213.78.124.136]) 3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AJI40297; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:18:23 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001401c3865a$a372e360$887c4ed5@pavilion> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:23:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >My top choices would be a "natural" color, a white (linen is easy to bleach) or a light blue or light yellow, Light colours are possible and fairly easy to dye on linen > as woad and weld were possibly the most likely dyes to use for linen, and dyeing linen a dark color was, while possible, a likely waste as it wouldn't hold the color long If you have any info suggesting period linens in dark colours I'd be interested to know, textile technology suggests deep colours were impossible on linen prior to chemical intervention to open dye sites. There are I'm sure far more natural methods that were used than we know of, so very interested if something suggesting this has turned up. Generally , experimentally, using period mordents of the type know to be avaliable in England (not so sure of elsewhere) makes it near impossible to dye a period linen a dark colour, you might get away with modern linens which have been pretreated for dyeing thus opening up the dye sites. If you can get a dark colour into linen it is likely to stay, in my experiance, stains which give a more tempory colour that dyeing in the chemical sense tend not to happen. This all has a lot to do with they way linen cells and fibres are formed which I can go into if anyone cares ;) Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 08:34:58 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TCYvIO026733 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:34:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TCXw76029954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:33:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TCWiVk019145; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:32:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TCWeVk019116 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:32:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234])h8TCWd7G018284 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030929083010.00b53de8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:32:52 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dressing Renaissance Florence In-Reply-To: <3F76AF06.13842.146F0F2F@localhost> References: <3F75580C.28862.F334FA8@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm currently reading this one, along with others - seems I can't read just one... anyway I'm finding it informative and a good read. Quite a change from some social histories that are a slog from cover to cover. It's got my recommendation too, for as far as that goes. Bridgette - avid reader of footnotes- >One way to tell is to look at her footnotes and Bibliography. Her are >full of things like "Two consilia on Widows' Rights" Bulletin of >Medieval Canon Law, as opposed to citing works like Caltrop, Peacock, >Brookes and the like. > >Kat > Mari Stewart Cornell University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 08:50:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TCoWIO032225 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:50:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TCns76000622 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:49:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TCnqVk025554; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:49:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TCnnVk025520 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:49:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA32628 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:12:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:12:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <001401c3865a$a372e360$887c4ed5@pavilion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I wrote: > dyeing linen a dark color was, while possible, a likely waste as it > wouldn't hold the color long Mel wrote: > If you have any info suggesting period linens in dark colours I'd be > interested to know, textile technology suggests deep colours were > impossible on linen prior to chemical intervention to open dye sites. > There are I'm sure far more natural methods that were used than we > know of, so very interested if something suggesting this has turned > up. I have none at all, and based on what I do know, I'm inclined to think that linen was rarely dyed (at least rarely for clothing usage) and not dyed dark colors. But in the past, when I've dared to suggest that perhaps linens *could not* be dyed dark, I get beaten about the head and shoulders with stories of people who say they've successfully dyed linen dark with natural dyes (just that it doesn't last). I have no clue whether their methods would be reproducible in period -- I'm not a dyer. A better way for me to phrase it would have been: dyeing linen a dark color, if even possible, would likely have been a waste as it wouldn't hold the color long Or, based on what you said about stains/permanence: dyeing linen a permanent dark color likely was not possible, and nonfast dark coloring, if possible, would not have been worth the effort. (Whenever I talk about this, I also get barraged by people pointing out that dyed linen clothing does show up in late 16th c. inventories, but 16th c. Western Europe is very different from late 14th / early 15th c. Western Europe, and I know nothing about what might be done in the 16th c. in terms of linen dyeing, deep or light or at all.) (I have a hunch that dyed linen in light colors might have been used more frequently in Southern Italy and/or Spain for the "fashion fabric," but Southern Italy and Spain are significantly different from Western Europe, fashion-wise and fabric-wise, in this period. And this is a whole 'nother discussion than we've had on this list several times...) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 09:15:04 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TDF3IO007596 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:15:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDEN76001838 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:14:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDEKQT006004; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:14:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDEIQT005971 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:14:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a21.in-tch.com [66.62.107.1]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8TCrmb10558 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:53:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F7830B0.9B44AE30@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:16:32 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Oh, hey, did you finally find that blue wool you were looking for, or is this another one? And what kind of buttons are you doing? --sue, who wants to make one this fall if she can just find where she put her mock-up when she moved..... Robin Netherton wrote: > > now midway through a new fitted dress > eyelets done, body done > tomorrow: sleeves! then 40 hand-done buttonholes & buttons > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 09:33:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TDXZIO014535 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:33:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDWm76002878 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:32:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDWkQT013778; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:32:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8TDWgQT013760 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:32:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 43510 invoked by uid 1005); 29 Sep 2003 13:32:38 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.070472 secs); 29 Sep 2003 13:32:38 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.070472 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 2003 13:32:37 -0000 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:32:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <001401c3865a$a372e360$887c4ed5@pavilion> Message-ID: <20030929092031.F51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > If you have any info suggesting period linens in dark colours I'd be > interested to know, textile technology suggests deep colours were impossible > on linen prior to chemical intervention to open dye sites. There are I'm > sure far more natural methods that were used than we know of, so very > interested if something suggesting this has turned up. The books & recipes I've read suggest that a dark blue was the most common dark color found on linen, due to woad's ability to color even the most recalcitrant cellulosic textile. I have also found recipes for dyeing red, grey, brown, yellow and black with madder on linen and fustian. These recipes were in a small book on home dyeing and spot removal from the late 16th century, "A Profitable book declaring how to remove spots, etc." The Allerley Matkel, a German kunstbuchlein from the early 16th century, also has some recipes for dyeing linen. Aside from the blue woad and black iron/gall recipes, almost all of them mention the use of tannin and alum mordanting, a requirement to obtain bright colors on linen. Personal experimentation has shown that if enough dyestuff is used, say, a 1-to-1 or 2-to-1 ratio of dyestuff to material weight, bright and rich reds can be obtained on linen. I /believe/ the Plictho has some recipes for dyeing red on fustian & linen as well, though I'm currently at work and can't check. If you want the text of any linen dyeing recipes for personal experimentation or documentation, let me know. Drea _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 09:42:50 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TDgnIO019095 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:42:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDeb76003326 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:40:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDeaQT017355; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:40:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDeWQT017321 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:40:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from your1p37d9kihs ([213.78.161.214])3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AJJ08042; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:40:29 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <053c01c3868f$3bb4b610$886f4ed5@your1p37d9kihs> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:40:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >I have none at all, and based on what I do know, I'm inclined to think that linen was rarely dyed (at least rarely for clothing usage) and not dyed dark colors. But in the past, when I've dared to suggest that perhaps linens *could not* be dyed dark, I get beaten about the head and shoulders with stories of people who say they've successfully dyed linen dark with natural dyes (just that it doesn't last). I think most people doing this are dyeing modern linen which is generally treated insuch a way as to allow maximum dye site exposure. Most natural dyes or most natural dyeing, that is done in modern times is not the same as period dyeing. > I have no clue whether their methods would be reproducible in period -- I'm not a dyer. I am, I've yet to see any that are reproducable given the facilities we know of (in England) >A better way for me to phrase it would have been: dyeing linen a dark color, if even possible, would likely have been a waste as it wouldn't hold the color long Chemically if you get it to dye it shoulkd hold the colour, so I think the dyes people mention might be stains rather than dyes :) >(Whenever I talk about this, I also get barraged by people pointing out that dyed linen clothing does show up in late 16th c. inventories, but 16th c. Western Europe is very different from late 14th / early 15th c. Western Europe, and I know nothing about what might be done in the 16th c. in terms of linen dyeing, deep or light or at all.) By then there is greater access to more chemically pure mordants I believe >(I have a hunch that dyed linen in light colors might have been used more frequently in Southern Italy and/or Spain for the "fashion fabric," but Southern Italy and Spain are significantly different from Western Europe, fashion-wise and fabric-wise, in this period. And this is a whole 'nother discussion than we've had on this list several times...) Yes very possible I think. Also it might be interesting to examine if flax from hotter climate had a better dye uptake than from colder , just a possible nothing to base that on ! I'm off to Portugal in a week or so, so I might get to look at textiles there lots of medieval Moorish sites nearby Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 09:48:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TDmGIO020648 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:48:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDlT76003663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:47:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDlSQT020166; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:47:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8TDlPQT020153 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:47:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 436 invoked by uid 1005); 29 Sep 2003 13:47:20 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.072108 secs); 29 Sep 2003 13:47:20 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.072108 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 2003 13:47:20 -0000 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:47:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Bumrolls and farthingales -- together or not? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030928094315.03bd0ec8@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030929093655.E51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > Was Queen Bess (or were her subjects) wearing more styles than just the > French gown at that time? Just as I have some tops that require a > racer-back bra, some that require a strapless bra, some that require a > long-line bra, and some that require one or another shape of "traditional" > bra, I would imagine that the Great Wardrobe (and the wardrobes of any of > the better-heeled women of the time) would have the proper underpinnings > for *each* of the styles Her Grace (or the noblewoman in question) was > currently wearing, if she was in the habit of wearing various different > styles of garment. The french gowns are the only ones that mention rolls sewn into the pleats. Some styles of gown, perhaps English or Flemish (with a fitted bodice cut in one with a flared skirt, or with a narrower profile) would not have been worn with a bumroll but would have been worn with a farthingale. > > Quite possibly, since the bent-rope farthingale will presumably be not > nearly as stiff as a metal, reed, or plastic-tubing hooped farthingale. > You're right, it is very flexible and lightweight. Also very strong, and resistant to cracking or bending. I added a layer of wool and buckram into the back pleats, which is giving it a really nice arch in the back. The farthingale is burgundy shot silk taffeta with a lining of black silk-linen. I have the reed sewn on, and am waiting for an order of black silk velvet to arrive to cover the bent rope. Very exciting! One interesting thing I've found is that when I whip-stitch the bent rope to the outside of the farthingale, the end result looks intriguingly similar to those narrow bands with diagonal lines across them found in some woodcuts and pictures of underskirts of the period. I've been taking pictures of it as I go, and will put it online when I'm finished. Drea _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 09:51:45 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TDpiIO021136 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:51:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDoj76003833 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:50:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDoiQT021584; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:50:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TDoeQT021482 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:50:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from your1p37d9kihs ([213.78.161.214])3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AJJ09678; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:50:25 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <054401c38690$9f29df80$886f4ed5@your1p37d9kihs> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030929092031.F51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:50:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >The books & recipes I've read suggest that a dark blue was the most common dark color found on linen, due to woad's ability to color even the most recalcitrant cellulosic textile. That's interesting, the method could have a significant effect. >Aside from the blue woad and black iron/gall recipes, almost all of them mention the use of tannin and alum mordanting, a requirement to obtain bright colors on linen. Yes Alum is the factor here, what is considered Alum now is not the same as was in medieval texts as far as most analysts consider, also until your period, chemically pure Alum of any kind is rare(or unobtainable) in England (as I keep saying I don't look beyond England in detail) I think the 13th C was the first recoded incident of chemically pure Alum production and one assumes that it arrived in England some time after that, it would also I feel be fair to assume it was in small quantities to start with >Personal experimentation has shown that if enough dyestuff is used, say, a 1-to-1 or 2-to-1 ratio of dyestuff to material weight, bright and rich reds can be obtained on linen. My experiance tends to showe an increased uptake in colour with greater quantities, but only if the mordents are correctly increased, modern mordents are much stronger and more effective. Again modern linen should also be more receptive to dyeing due to its pre treatment. Have you done any control with untreated linen ? Do your recipe books suggest any pretreatments at all ? i realise we are going outside the initial period but I'm still intrigued ! >If you want the text of any linen dyeing recipes for personal experimentation or documentation, let me know. Yes I'd be interested thanks Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 10:32:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TEWpIO006155 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:32:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TEVb76007082 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:31:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TEVYSj015075; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:31:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web40906.mail.yahoo.com (web40906.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.203]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8TEVVSj014947 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:31:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030929143124.70712.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.104.32.34] by web40906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:31:24 PDT Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:31:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tasha McGann To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200309291333.h8TDX0QV013905@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] Re: Cotehardie lining fabric? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Cennino d'Andrea Cennini's treatise on artistic techniques, _Il Libro dell'Arte_ has a mention of dying linen for *children's clothing* using saffron. He also talks about painting linen with cloth paints made from brasilwood (and malachite? Or is that just some phantom memory I'm having?). Does anyone know for sure when that book was written? I've seen sources argue for the 14th century, and others for the 15th. -Tasha ===== http://www.cottesimple.com An exploration of European clothing and accessories from the late 14th/early 15th centuries. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 10:44:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TEiNIO009631 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:44:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TEhF76008211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:43:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TEhDSj023659; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:43:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8TEh9Sj023625 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:43:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 47019 invoked by uid 1005); 29 Sep 2003 14:43:03 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.180114 secs); 29 Sep 2003 14:43:03 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.180114 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 2003 14:43:02 -0000 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:43:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <054401c38690$9f29df80$886f4ed5@your1p37d9kihs> Message-ID: <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > Yes Alum is the factor here, what is considered Alum now is not the same as > was in medieval texts as far as most analysts consider, also until your > period, chemically pure Alum of any kind is rare(or unobtainable) in England > (as I keep saying I don't look beyond England in detail) I think the 13th C > was the first recoded incident of chemically pure Alum production and one > assumes that it arrived in England some time after that, it would also I > feel be fair to assume it was in small quantities to start with > "The Practice of Commerce", from the first half of the 14th century, has a quite comprehensive list of types of alum imported into Italy. Rock alum of Karahissar, Choice alum of good alum works, Phocaea alum, Kutahieh and Ayassoluk alum, Ulubad alum, Cyzican alum, Cord alum, Diaschilo Sarcocolla alum, Processed alum in scales, Castile alum, Sugar alum, Vulcano alum and "Alum" from wine lees [tartar] Italy rather than England, I know, but it really does illustrate how much variety was to be found in period alum mordants compared to today's purified stuff...as well as the demand for alum during the time period. I'd love to get my hands on some "impure" alum samples from the time to experiment with. > > My experiance tends to showe an increased uptake in colour with greater > quantities, but only if the mordents are correctly increased, modern > mordents are much stronger and more effective. Again modern linen should > also be more receptive to dyeing due to its pre treatment. Have you done any > control with untreated linen ? > Yes, I threw a swatch of unmordanted linen in with the batch--same hue, but a much lighter shade of pink. > Do your recipe books suggest any pretreatments at all ? i realise we are > going outside the initial period but I'm still intrigued ! > For linen dyes, all recipes I have seen involve a) an alum + tannin premordant or b) a strongly alkaline/lye solution used in conjunction with the dyebath. I haven't experiment with the lye-based "mordanting" yet, but presumably it somehow helps to lock color into linen & fustian. Here are the dye recipes I have (almost all 16th c.) that mention linen. Red is by far the most popular color mentioned. Enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------- How to dye linnen or thread redde. As when ye will dye any Linnen or thread redde, yee shall take one pound of samfleure, and let it soke halfe a day and a night in water milke warme, then put it into a thicke bagge or sacke, and therein wash and rince it in the riuer till the bagge be therewith red, then wring the water well forth, and so take out your samfleure, and spread it uppon a faire bord or Table and make (as it were) a little thinne bedde thereof, then strew thereon of white ashes, in making beddes of your Samfleure, and when ye haue strewed them with ashes, ye shall take to one pound of Samfleure, a quarter of a pound of ashes, which ashes must be burnt and made of the lyes of white Wine, and it must be wel chaft betwixt your handes, the one against the other, then make thereof a small heape, and so let it rest the space of fiue houres. Then shal yee rubbe it againe til it ware warme, then haue readie a faire bason, and sette it under your stuffe, that it may runne therein, and also wring out the iuyce thereof into the sayd bason. Then cast therein a pinte of wine vinegar that is verie good, then yee may put therein a pounde of yarne, and it shal doe wel. But to dye your Linnen cloth, ye shall put it in before your yarne or fustian. Then lay it therein a day and a night, then take forth your linnen or yarne, and then put therein a gallon of ashes of the Ashe tree, and thereunto your linnen, yarne or fustian, and so let it lye therein halfe an houre, then take it out and wring it as well as you can, then by and by hang it in the sunne, then take that water that ye soked first your Samfleure in, and strayne it (as aforesayd) into the bason unto the other colour, then put therein a glasse full of Vinegar, and then you may put therein your yarne, fustian, or linnen cloth, and doe thereunto as is aforesayd. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW Cap. XVI. In the original, "milk warm" was "as warm as water is in the summer". Another way to dye Linnen in a faire rose To dye a faire redde Rose colour of Linnen, yee shall take to euerie iiii yards and a halfe of Linnen, half a li. of good gall nots, and seeth them in faire water all whole, the space of 2. Houres. Then take it from the fire, & poure that water into another vessell or fatte, then put your linnen into the sayd water, and let it soke therein the space of foure houres, then take it forth and wring the licour well forth. Then take faire water in a kettle, and set it on the fire, and put therein a quarter of a pound of Allom, and when it is readie to seeth, take it from the fire, and put your cloth therein as soone as ye haue wrung and strayned out your gals aforesayde, but lette it drie a night before first, and then turne it well therein the space of a quarter of an houre. So take it forth and wring it well, & then seeth two ounces of Brasill in faire water, the space of two houres, then take that from the fire, and hange another kettle ouer the fire, and put therein gruys water, so warme it a little, and cast therin two li. of grening wede, then put your linnen cloth therein, and looke that no Allom haue beene in that water. Then let it lye therin halfe an houre, and stirre it wel with a staffe and then take out therof the said linnen, ye may then cast away the same liquor, and wash your kettle cleane, and put therein of the clearest brasill water, and let it wel colour therein. Then take your Linnen and wash it wel in faire water, then take of faire water in a panne, with a little Allom and so seeth them both together: and therein seeth your linnen cloth fiue or sixe Pater noster whiles. Then take out the sayd cloth and wring it well, and after that put the sayd cloth into the kettle of brasill water and therin ye shal turne and winde it wel, the space of a quarter of an houre, then take it forth and wring it a little, and in like wise you shall do with the dying of fustian, but unto your fustian you must haue two parts more of Verdigreace and Allom, and that your fustian must lye therin halfe a day and a night, then wring it forth, and let it drie, then after yee may rayse his cotton with cardes meete for that purpose: if ye will haue your Linnen more fairer, cast into the kettle with your said brasill, some lye made of white Lime, then put your cloth therein, then turne and wind it therein the space of foure pater nosters, and then take it forth thereof, and wring it well, and so hange it up to drie. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW cap. XVII. To make a good black dye. Take a pound of galles, and ye fourth part of coperas, and seeth these together, then put the cloth therein, and stirre it wel about, then hang it to drie, then prepare your dye as thus, take a good great fat, and put therein a fourth part of Rye meale, and halfe so much of swarfe (of the grindstone), and so much of Elder barke, and in like of old yron, & the scales of yron, as it comes off by the hammer heating, stirre this all wel together, and so let it stand three days or euer ye put your cloth therein, and at each time let your linnen drie afore ye put it therein. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: In the original Recipe (capit. VI of TBvW), the portions of rye, elder bark, old iron, swarfe & iron scales were all equal. To make a redde carnation. To make a redde carnation die, ye must die your white cloth, linnen or woollen, or silke yarne, to do it well, yee shall gall and allom it well. Ye must take an earbe called Foli in dutch, that shall ye finde by ditches & bankes, take a pound thereof that is drie, this is in tufts, and it is hote like wee-ashes and carnation in sight, therewith men doe make a redde carnation woollen cloth, with the greene or white, or of silke, and if any carnation haue lost his colour, or if any carnation haue lost his die, with that ye shall die it againe, that it shall not loose his colour, and to four elles of cloth, ye shall take a pound gruis, or of that hearbe afore named, which ye shal beate to powder, Then shall yee take lye made of Oke ashes, mixe a part therewith, and another part of cleere pisse cleere and old, of each like much. If ye will haue a light die, take pisse new made, and of the foresayd lye in like much, & therewith ye shall die, with the foresayd poulder put therein, and as it is sod, put in that which yee would die, and seeth it two hours long, and then let it drie. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW chap. IX. Foli=folium, or Turnsole. To dye with brasill as red as a Rose. Take sixe elles of linnen, and thereto halfe a pound of beaten galles of the best: then put it in faire water, and let it seeth about two houres, but the galles should rather be all whole, and when they are sodde, set it from the fire, and put it gently in another Kettle or fatte, and then put your linnen therein, as hote as you may handle it, and stirre it therein foure houres long, that done, then wring it well foorth, and hang it to drie. Then take four ounces of Allom, and seeth it with water, and when it is sod, take it from the fire, and put your galled cloth therein, as hote as ye may suffer it, the space of a quarter of an houre, then take your branne water and put thereof in a Kettle, and as it is warme, put therin two pound of grening weede, let it be the first time soke well therein, and let it be well and hote, but not seeth, and then put your cloth therein, and stir and handle it well at the first with your handes, nye half an houre with a staffe tost well all about, and wel handled in the die, and then ye shall take your cloth, and spoonge it in water and wash it cleane. Then take a little Allom, and seeth it with water, then shall ye haue two ounces of brasill sodde in light water, and put your cloth therein, fiue pater nosters long. Then if it be not drie ynough, then weat it as before is sayd. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: In the original Dutch Recipe (TBvW chap. XV), "cloth" was specified instead of "linen". "light water" was "slecht water", or dirty water. (This could be urine.) Grening weed is madder. To dye faire linnen with brasill. Ye shall take faire water, and heate it ouer the fire, then shall ye haue the powder of galles, and put thereof into the Kettle ouer the fire, and so let it seeth a quarter of an hower: then take it from the fire, and take another vessell and put therein so much cold water, as of the other in the kettle, and put that hote in the Kettle thereunto. Then put your cloth therein, and stirre it well up and downe therein, and as ye haue done so a while, then let it lye therein foure houres long in that gall water, then take your kettle againe with other faire water, and set it ouer the fire and make it hote, then put allom therein to the Kettle ouer the fire, and as that water is hot, and the allom melted, yee must then haue another vessell or fatte with cold water, as much as of the other hote water, and put the Allom water therein, then put your cloth therein, and stirre it as aforesayd, and so let it then lye therein foure houres long, so done, then yee shall wring it out and hange it to drie, or to drie in the ayre, but let it not bee too drie. Then shall ye take your brasill made in powder, and put it in the panne, and so let it seeth therein, the quarter of an houre, and before that brasill doe seeth, ye shall take wheat flower, & put therein, mixe it all together well in a dish, and put it into the kettle before it doe seeth: thus done, let it seeth, and as it hath sod, then take forth so much of the brasil, as ye may put in your cloth, and stirre it well about, as is afore declared, thus done, let your cloth rest therein a good while, then wring it forth, and hang it to dry, & as it is dry, ye shall take that liquor that it hath layne in, and put that away, then take againe so much brasill as before, and put that cloth therein againe, and then hange it to drie, and as it is drie, then put it in another licor, and hang it againe to drie, and then it is full done. And to know the quantitie of weight, which is, to euerie elle of linnen cloth, ye shall take a loot of gall powder so called in Dutch, & as much of allom, and to each elle of cloth one ounce of brasill. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW XX. "wheat flower" was "tarwebloemen", dutch for "wheat flour" A faire linnen cloth to dye blewe. For to dye a faire blew, ye shal take a pan of faire water, and hang it ouer the fire, & let it be seething hot, then must ye haue a vessell of halfe an Ame, so cald in dutch, or thereabout, & as your licor is hot, put thereto 3 pound of wheat bran, & 3 pound of ashes, and a pound of greening weede, stir all this in the pan, & let it seeth 3 or 4 paternosters long, then take of floray under halfe a pound, & soke it in faire water, & let it there rest a quarter of an houre couered, then take your clean vessel or Ame, & therein put your soked floray, then take the hot licor ouer the fire, but let it coole ere ye put it into the fatte, then put it in and stirre it well, & so couer it wel and close, and let it so rest sixe houres long, then uncouer it & stirre it well about a good while, then couer it close againe, & let it rest other vi houres, then uncouer it & stir it as before, & so stop it again, then uncouer it within 2 or 3 houres, and looke if the die begin to come, or begin to wax greene [Ed.note: in original, phrase here added: "Or if the scum from the bloom begins to appear"], if they do not, let it rest longer and stoppe it close, if ye see it be come, put therein some of your cloth that ye would die, and turne it well therein, then wring it out, and let it rest 2. or 3. houres: then put in again your cloth, & use it as aforesayd, and so stop it wel again, and let it rest so 2 or 3 houres, till ye shall see the dye begin to come, and the flower to lye aboue, & to euerie going that ye goe thereto, see if the colour be green ynough, or wax green, and when ye shall see it so, ye shal scom off the flower with a dish, and then put your cloth again therein, stirre it wel, and wring it forth, then stop it again wel, and thus ye must color three or four times a day. Then must ye take the dye in the vessell, and hange it ouer the fire againe, and there let it bee hot, and put therin two pound and a halfe of ashes. Then put it in the fatte, and so let it rest, but stoppe it well and close, so let it rest a night, but stirre it once in the night with a staffe, & see in the morning if the die be come, as aforesayd, & so put in your cloth againe, but let it not lye therein too long, that it coole not the die, and as yee haue thus dyed it foure times. Then shall ye make it hot agayne ouer the fire, putting therein two pound of pot ashes, & so let it rest all a night, & stirre it once in the night as aforesaid, and stoppe it close, and when yee goe thereto, see if the dye be come, and if it be come, yee may dye, as before, what yee thinke good, and when your colour waxeth a faire green, then is your die good and ripe, and the flowers will lye faire aboue, but as it beginnes to waxe yealow, then is it too ripe: and then must yee put in more cloth. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW Chap. XXII The original specifies 3.5 pounds of bran meal. How to dye a faire Linnen with brasill. Yee shall take so much linnen as ye will, and to euery elle of linnen, take two ounces of gall nuts, or xii nuts: these nuts yee shall breake in twoo or three peeces, then put them into a kettle with water, and let them seeth together, and when they haue sod a quarter of an houre or lesse, then take it from off the fire, and take your cloth foorth thereof, and let it a little soake by, but let it not drie. As ye haue thus sod it, ye shall take another kettle with faire water, and put it ouer the fire and make it seething hote, then shall ye to euery elle of cloth, take twoo ounces of Allom which ye shall put in the said water, & as it is melted, yee shall take the foresaid cloth and put it into the said kettle to the Allom and let them seeth together a quarter of an houre, then take it forth of the kettle and wring it a little, then hang it to drie a little, but not too much. Then yee must haue your sod brasill as thus: ye shall take lye made of wood ashes, but see it be not too strong, and thereof so much in your panne as wil make your cloth weat, then put your brasill into the pan with the lye, and so let it seeth a quarter of an houre, then set it from the fire, and haue ready an earthen panne, and by and by put your liquor and brasill therein, then shall yee put your foresaid cloth therein, and stirre it & turne it well therin, but see that it be not too dry of the said Allom that it hath been sod with. Also to foure gallons of lye, ye shall put lesse then halfe a pound of brasill poulder small beaten. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: Original is TBvW chap. Xxiii A red to dye with Crampmede. Take a pound of Crampmede, to three elles of linnen, and take a faire pot with water, and set it by the fire till it be readie to seeth, and put therein two ounces of gals, and let them so seeth together, and then put your linnen therein, and take it sometimes out and in, and at each time wring it well out. Then take a faire pot with faire water, and make it seething hot, then put therein an ounce of Allom, and so let it seeth well, then put your cloth in as aforesayd. Then take another pot of water, and let it seeth therein till it be red, then take that cloth out, and clense it all about with a cloth. If ye will haue it more darker, then must ye haue a lye of unquenched chalke, with a like dye: men with woad ashes do make a red dye or colour, without unquenched lime, in hauing woad ashes in stead of unquenched lime. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: The original recipe specifies cloth ("lake") and not linen. TBvW chap. XXVII Crampmede="Crappe van Meede"=madder. To dye blacke Veluet or Linnen. Take of gals and coperas, & seeth them together, and put your linnen therein, if it be gray silke, then take of Elder barks, and old yron, and put all in a herring barrell or vessell. Then take gruis or swarte, this shall be a third dele [part] of the fat, the other two parts shalbe faire water, so let it stand three weekes long, & so stir it often well about, and put your gray silke therein, and as this is done, so shall ye hang it to drie, and so put it in againe, so often till that it be blacke ynough. In stead of galles ye may take barkes of Oke, and Shomakers blacke. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW chap. XXVIII. To make gray flore. Take flore and lay it to soke 24. Houres, then wring it out thorow a cloth, then take lye of wine ashes, and spred it two houres long on a faire table, then take the sayd lye and put it in three vessels, & take the flore and put it into one of the vessels. Then put it well forth, and then put that Flore in the least vessell, then so in the middest, and in the first, but ere ye put the linnen therein, put in vineger and wring it out. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW chap. XXIX To make a red with brasill. Take your Linnen to one pound, take a fourth part of Allom, but first seeth Allom, then lay your linnen therein the space of two houres, then take of beaten galles, and put water thereto, then lay your linnen therein, and put in a quarter of a pound of brasill, and an ounce of gumme of Arabie. Then let it seeth a fourth part in, and then put in your Linnen. If you will haue it a redde, then put in no galles. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW XXXV. In the original, "cloth" is specified instead of "linnen".] To make a faire sanguine dye. Take upon each elle of linnen, sixe galles beaten into powder, and then take three gallons of water put into a tubbe, and put the powder of the galles thereto, and stir them well together, then lay your linnen therein, and turne and wend it wel. Then take and wring it dry out, then let it lye therin againe two houres long, but at each houre ye must wring it, as before, and lay it therin again in the tubbe, and as it hath layne two houres, & so wrung out, then take an ounce of Allom, of the best, and three gallons of water in a Kettle, & make it well and hot readie to seeth, till all be wel molten, then set it from the fire, and put your linnen therin, & do it as ye haue done before againe two houres long, then after that take a pan, and put therein two gallons of water, and warme that like the other, then take three ounces of brasil, and cast it therin, againe, let it seeth a quarter of an houre, then take a good quart of water, and cast it therein seething, and take a quart of that die, and lay your linnen therein sixe or vii paternosters long, so that yr dye be drunke all in the said cloth, then wring it forth and handle it well, then lay the cloth againe, in that dye, tosse it, and turne it and wend it well therein, and let it lye therein so long as aforesayd, and so wring it out, then take the third colour and lay it therein, and let it lye therein a quarter of an houre, and so it will be well. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW Chap. L : the "three ounces" of brasil were "drie loot", or "three loot" in the original recipe To colour or dye a blacke. Take a vessell, and put in cold gall water, then lay your Fustian therein, stirre it and handle it well therein, and then put it into the blacke die, and tosse it and handle it well therein also, and then againe in the gall water, and againe in the die, doe thus so often till it bee dyed ynough. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW Chap. XXXVIII To dye a faire yealow colour as Gold. Lay first your linnen in Allom water foure houres long, then take one part of chalke, and two partes of wood ashes, then make a lye thereof, and seeth your dye therewith, also the best lye to die with is, to take 2 parts of wood ashes, and one part of chalke, worke and use it as yee shall perceiue best. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW chap. XXXiX. The original word used for linen was "laken" or "cloth", with wool broadcloth being meant To dye Fustian gray. Take of hay ashes, and vine ashes by themselues, and make a lye thereof, then put your fustian there in the hay lye, and then in the other lye, to it thus so long till yee see it all coloured ynough, with these and such like yee may dye linnen gray, but ye must put thereto a little more of calles. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: To dye Fustian grey. First lay your fustian to soke the space of 3. Houres, then to viii. Elles of fustian, take two ounces of broken gals, and put them into warme water, then put your gall water into another fat, with eight quarts of fresh water, then lay your fustian therein, and stir it well with your hands therin, tosse it wel, and wring it forth well, & lay it therein again one houre & so wring it wel forth, then put it into the black die, and lay it therein another houre, so wring it well, then scoure it in faire riuer water, and then put it into your gal water, and then the black die, then scoure it and drie it, so burle it and dresse it up, and so it is done. from A Profitable Boke of Dye Receipts , c. 1586 Notes: TBvW Chap. XL To dye threede or linnen cloth blewe. Take the berries of Ebulus, very rype, and well dryed in the Sunne, laye them in Vineger, xii houres, then rubbe them with your hande, and strayne them throwe a linnen cloth, putting to them some Verdet bruised, and Alome alone. Yf the blewe be to be cleare put more Verdet to it, and lay your threede or linnen cloth in it. from The Secretes of Alexis of Piedmont , c. 1568 Notes: An other waye to dye blewe. Take three partes of ashes of Lees burned, one part of unslect lyme, and make thereof Lye, let it clarifie and then strayne it thorowe a course linnen clothe. Take xv pots of the same water, and poure it upon a pounde of Flaunders blewe, such as is taken of the dyers caudrons, and mingle them well togeather with a sticke. Then sette it on the fyre untill you can scante endure your hande in it. But before you doe dye any thing, you must haue youre linnen cloth boyled in Alome and dryed agayne, and plundged afterwarde in the hote Lye twice or thrice, according as you wyll haue the coloure darke or cleare. The substance must be hoate before you occupye yt. from The Secretes of Alexis of Piedmont , c. 1568 Notes: An other way [to dye redde]. Take unslect lyme, and put a little water upon it, and let it stande a nyght, and afterwarde strayne the clearest thorowe a linnen cloth, and for euery pinte of water put in halfe an unce of scraped brassell. Let it seeth unto the halfe, and put to it halfe an unce of Alome, sette it upon woode, and let it heate, but not seeth. When you wyll, haue that you wyll die, readie prepared, in such sorte as here foloweth. Take Lees of redde wine, and put it in a bagge that all the wine dreane out, and the Lees waxe drye. Make therof balles as bigge as a hennes Egge drying them in the Sunne, and burning them after into ashes, and of this ashes make a strong Lye, and make it very hote, and then weate in it the thing that you wyll dye, drying it afterwarde, and then dye it with the foresayde colour. from The Secretes of Alexis of Piedmont , c. 1568 Notes: To dye yarn and linen cloth blue Take the black dwarf elder berries, dry them in the sun and soak them in vinegar for 12 hours. Squeeze them with your hands, strain them and press it through a cloth. Put ground verdegris and alum therein. If the color should turn out light blue then add more verdegris. Lay the yarn or the linen cloth therein. Or take blue bilberries, pour water thereon, let it soak for three or four days, put alum therein and boil it well together. from Allerley Matkel , c. 1532 Notes: These dyes aren't colorfast and will tend to fade to grey, despite the alum used as a mordant. Linen is more susceptible to this than wool. The verdigris may have been used to combat this tendency. To dye yarn and linen cloth brown Take a pound of wild saffron and put it in a bag. Lay it a day and a night in flowing water; thereafter wash it until no more yellow color comes from it. Take then a pot and lay a layer of saffron therein which is not too thick. Strew thereon finely ground weyd ashes then again a layer of saffron and again weyd ashes, etc. Cover or stop it up well, and let it stand for seven hours. Take then eight mass of water, four mass vinegar and put the saffron and ashes in a pointed lye sack (long, pointed sack?). Let the warm water and vinegar run through 15 times, and this will be the last dye. Again take the same amount of water and vinegar, let it run through as before, and this is the second dye. Do it a third time, and this will be the first dye. Take this dye and warm it, and let the yarn lie therein for a night. Hang it up once its wrung out. Do the same with the second dye, and in the third let it lie for seven hours. from Allerley Matkel , c. 1532 Notes: This is clearly a recipe for creating a red-brown dye from safflower. Virtually identical recipes for extracting red from Safflower can be found in the Profitable Dye Book, Secretes of Alexis, T Bouck va Wondre and the Household Cyclopedia. All mention suspending the dye material in water until the soluble yellow dye has been removed, and then precipitating the red dye with an alkaline solution of ashes. The triple-dying technique is one seen in other 16th century books for dyeing wool and especially linen with non-colorfast or non-substantive dyestuffs. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 10:52:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TEqgIO009644 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:52:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TEpm76008851 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:51:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TEpkSj029816; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:51:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TEphSj029777 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:51:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8TEphFp022471 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.196.32] (as3-4-46.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.32]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TEpMJc022178 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <001401c3865a$a372e360$887c4ed5@pavilion> References: <001401c3865a$a372e360$887c4ed5@pavilion> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:50:32 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 8:23 AM +0100 9/29/03, Melanie Wilson wrote: > >My top choices would be a "natural" color, a white (linen is easy to >bleach) or a light blue or light yellow, > >Light colours are possible and fairly easy to dye on linen > >> as woad and weld were possibly >the most likely dyes to use for linen, and dyeing linen a dark color was, >while possible, a likely waste as it wouldn't hold the color long > >If you have any info suggesting period linens in dark colours I'd be >interested to know, textile technology suggests deep colours were impossible >on linen prior to chemical intervention to open dye sites. There are I'm >sure far more natural methods that were used than we know of, so very >interested if something suggesting this has turned up. The linen lining of the 15th c. "satin coat of Charles the Bold" is a very dark gray or even something reasonably called black. That's the darkest item I've seen from the period. The linen lining (possibly an interlining -- I'd have to check the article again) of the vestments of the Order of the Golden Fleece is a rather pastel pinky-orange. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 12:28:17 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TGSGIO009890 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:28:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TGQU76018495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:26:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TGQPQv020644; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:26:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TGQKQv020564 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:26:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01630 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:49:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:49:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <20030929143124.70712.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Tasha McGann wrote: > Cennino d'Andrea Cennini's treatise on artistic techniques, _Il Libro > dell'Arte_ has a mention of dying linen for *children's clothing* > using saffron. Is saffron the sort of color that will fade with time? Children's clothes, one might argue, would not be meant to last a very long time, so a fugitive color would be acceptable. > He also talks about painting linen with cloth paints made from > brasilwood (and malachite? Or is that just some phantom memory I'm > having?). Drea could tell you more, but IIRC there are quite a number of references to painted fabric for various purposes -- hangings/decor, costumes, clerical vestments, etc. I don't think painting dress fabric was done routinely for "real" clothing. Though if anyone has evidence to the contrary, please let me know. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 12:46:38 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TGkcIO009938 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:46:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TGjp76020333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:45:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TGjnQv007609; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:45:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8TGjkQv007572 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:45:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 34391 invoked by uid 1005); 29 Sep 2003 16:45:38 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.411558 secs); 29 Sep 2003 16:45:38 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.411558 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 2003 16:45:37 -0000 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:45:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030929124201.O51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I have found a couple of 15th c. german recipes for fabric paint that involve brazilwood & verdigris, to obtain red and green pigments. They were in the book "Ein Buch von Alten Farben", by Ernst Emil Ploss. In German, but some really great info on medieval fabric painting, stamping and dyeing. Drea On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Robin Netherton wrote: > > On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Tasha McGann wrote: > > > Cennino d'Andrea Cennini's treatise on artistic techniques, _Il Libro > > dell'Arte_ has a mention of dying linen for *children's clothing* > > using saffron. > > Is saffron the sort of color that will fade with time? Children's clothes, > one might argue, would not be meant to last a very long time, so a > fugitive color would be acceptable. > > > He also talks about painting linen with cloth paints made from > > brasilwood (and malachite? Or is that just some phantom memory I'm > > having?). > > Drea could tell you more, but IIRC there are quite a number of references > to painted fabric for various purposes -- hangings/decor, costumes, > clerical vestments, etc. I don't think painting dress fabric was done > routinely for "real" clothing. Though if anyone has evidence to the > contrary, please let me know. > > --Robin > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 14:00:42 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TI0gIO010110 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:00:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8THx776027773 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:59:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8THx4Rk013694; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:59:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8THx1Rk013482 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:59:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion ([213.78.97.244])3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AJJ47240; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:55:39 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <008601c386b3$aa462ea0$1d694ed5@pavilion> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001401c3865a$a372e360$887c4ed5@pavilion> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:01:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >The linen lining of the 15th c. "satin coat of Charles the Bold" is a very dark gray or even something reasonably called black. That's the darkest item I've seen from the period. Have you a ref for the article please ? Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 14:05:33 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TI5XIO010122 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:05:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TI4m76028475 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:04:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TI4kRk018846; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:04:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TI4iRk018807 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:04:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion ([213.78.97.244])3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AJJ48470; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:04:34 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <008b01c386b4$e988d580$1d694ed5@pavilion> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:10:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >The Practice of Commerce", from the first half of the 14th century, has a quite comprehensive list of types of alum imported into Italy. Rock alum of Karahissar, Choice alum of good alum works, Phocaea alum, Kutahieh and Ayassoluk alum, Ulubad alum, Cyzican alum, Cord alum, Diaschilo Sarcocolla alum, Processed alum in scales, Castile alum, Sugar alum, Vulcano alum and "Alum" from wine lees [tartar] Yes that is pretty much the time scale I have, things tends to the trickle to the frozen north ;) >Italy rather than England, I know, but it really does illustrate how much variety was to be found in period alum mordants compared to today's purified stuff...as well as the demand for alum during the time period. I'd love to get my hands on some "impure" alum samples from the time to experiment with. You and me both, if only we knew EXACTLY what they were :) I think a lot of the recieved wisdom is over simplified. The suggestion of colours specific to areas (eg Lincoln green) suggests local input to dyestuffs, whether by soil contribltion to the dyestuff water type or some local modernt or modifer. It is hard to know.... >Yes, I threw a swatch of unmordanted linen in with the batch--same hue, but a much lighter shade of pink. Sorry I really mean virgin linen which hadn't been commercially treated. So you experiments were pre mordanted totally ? >For linen dyes, all recipes I have seen involve a) an alum + tannin premordant or b) a strongly alkaline/lye solution used in conjunction with the dyebath. I haven't experiment with the lye-based "mordanting" yet, but presumably it somehow helps to lock color into linen & fustian. Alkaline should help open up the dye sites quite a bit and allow the dye to bond >Here are the dye recipes I have (almost all 16th c.) that mention linen. Thanks, although I should be thinking bones not textiles, I always get pulled into dyeing :) So little time so much to interest me ! Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 14:28:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TIShIO010150 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:28:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TIRT76001015 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:27:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TIRRRk009085; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:27:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8TIRBRk008840 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:27:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 42798 invoked by uid 1005); 29 Sep 2003 18:27:02 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.520131 secs); 29 Sep 2003 18:27:02 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.520131 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 2003 18:27:02 -0000 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:27:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <008b01c386b4$e988d580$1d694ed5@pavilion> Message-ID: <20030929142506.F51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > You and me both, if only we knew EXACTLY what they were :) I think a lot of > the recieved wisdom is over simplified. The suggestion of colours specific > to areas (eg Lincoln green) suggests local input to dyestuffs, whether by > soil contribltion to the dyestuff water type or some local modernt or > modifer. It is hard to know.... Do you know anyone who is researching medieval chemicals of this sort? > > Sorry I really mean virgin linen which hadn't been commercially treated. So > you experiments were pre mordanted totally ? Aside from the test unmordanted wool & linen strips. Where would one get Linen that hasn't been "commercially" treated? I usually wash mine on hot with some Orvus or castile soap, then dry it, and use that to dye. I haven't had any strange colorations occur. > Thanks, although I should be thinking bones not textiles, I always get > pulled into dyeing :) So little time so much to interest me ! > Well, I have some recipes for dyeing bones...would that do? ;) Drea _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 15:09:36 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TJ8ZIO010967 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:08:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TJ5n76004420 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:05:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TJ5deI012443; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:05:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from incoming.SIGENETICS.com ([209.172.110.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TJ5VeI012265 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:05:33 -0600 (MDT) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:05:24 -0700 Message-ID: <445E782ED9213F40922903173696C8848B54F8@incoming.sigenetics.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: h-costume Digest, Vol 2, Issue 613 Thread-Index: AcOFRKNAzatC5XChR7uvSwa82DDjXgBdvk+Q From: "Sunny Buchler" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8TJ5VeI012265 Subject: [h-cost] RE: enlarging patterns from books? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I buy rolls of paper from art stores. You can buy rolls of paper between 2 and 5 feet wide and they're something like 100 feet on the roll ('fraid I don't have it with me to check). Expect to pay between 15 and 25$ depending on the weight of paper you're looking for. To enlarge patterns I cheat if I can -- if it's something small like a bodice pattern out of Arnold I will simply blow it up on a copier at Kinko's and then tape the pages together. If it's a large pattern then the copier is too much work -- I photo copy the page (without changing it's size) and then draw a very fine grid on it. Then I draw a much larger replica of the grid on my roll of paper. I then free-hand the shapes in each box of the small copy into the big squares on my roll of paper. If the grid on your photo copy is small enough then it's not too hard to free-hand everything. I expect having a projector would be much easier, but I don't have access to one. -sunny _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 16:16:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TKGaIO011441 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:16:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TKFM76011436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:15:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TKFJHq015111; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:15:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TKFEHq015052 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:15:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from patriot.net (support.patriot.net [209.249.176.6]) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id h8TKFEVJ029418 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:15:14 -0400 Message-Id: <200309292015.h8TKFEVJ029418@jefferson.patriot.net> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:11:10 -0000 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: enlarging patterns from books? From: X-Mailer: TWIG 2.3.2 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Another trick - scan the pattern from the book, blow up the size, then print it out on several pieces of paper. Fit & tape them together. It's a bit tricky dealing with printer margins, etc, but the end result is good without all the hand-gridding & retracing work. The paper on rolls is helpful once you finish the alterations & re-draw the pattern at the right size. :-) -Carol _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 18:07:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TM7FIO012961 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:07:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TM6876021692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:06:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TM61Cu019025; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:06:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TM5vCu018935 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:05:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (213-78-106-43.friaco.onetel.net.uk [213.78.106.43]) 3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AJJ77114; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:37:22 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <00e801c386d2$a306eca0$1d694ed5@pavilion> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20030929142506.F51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:42:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >Do you know anyone who is researching medieval chemicals of this sort? No I don't, I get the Historical dyes (forget the exact name) journal and there is little mention of such things although I would have thought there are several PhDs in it, maybe in other European countries published in other languages.. > >Where would one get Linen that hasn't been "commercially" treated? I've tended to use flax for spinning and bleached it myself, as test untreated stuff, I've noticed less dye uptake in this than in bought fabric. Also British and US fabrics used to be very differently prepared (I'm going back nearly 15 years when I was working commercially in cellulosics in both the UK & US so this could well be out of date) so your results might be different because of the source of fabric as well. Lots of factors to consider really, sorry I'm complicating things :(( >Well, I have some recipes for dyeing bones...would that do? ;) Not really, female pelves I'm hoping to look at !! Don't ask costume is a much healthier research topic ;) Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 18:25:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TMPbIO013059 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:25:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TMN276023301 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:23:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TMN0Cu004044; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:23:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TMMvCu003995 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:22:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1A46Pw-000Ijt-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:22:56 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:57:40 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie References: <20030929143124.70712.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) Subject: [h-cost] dyeing linen and children's clothes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Robin Netherton wrote > >On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Tasha McGann wrote: > >> Cennino d'Andrea Cennini's treatise on artistic techniques, _Il Libro >> dell'Arte_ has a mention of dying linen for *children's clothing* >> using saffron. > >Is saffron the sort of color that will fade with time? Children's clothes, >one might argue, would not be meant to last a very long time, so a >fugitive color would be acceptable. > It seems strange that they would dye separate cloth specifically to make clothes not meant to last long. Wouldn't they more likely cut down old adult clothes, or use offcuts not big enough to use for adults? Or I wonder if they mean baby clothes or swaddling, and there's another issue here we're missing? Jean >> He also talks about painting linen with cloth paints made from >> brasilwood (and malachite? Or is that just some phantom memory I'm >> having?). > >Drea could tell you more, but IIRC there are quite a number of references >to painted fabric for various purposes -- hangings/decor, costumes, >clerical vestments, etc. I don't think painting dress fabric was done >routinely for "real" clothing. Though if anyone has evidence to the >contrary, please let me know. > >--Robin > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 18:58:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TMwtIO013185 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:58:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TMwL76025789 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:58:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TMwIX9028193; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:58:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r01.mx.aol.com ([152.163.225.97]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TMqCCu023221 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:53:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.145.19cd6e1d (3956) for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:49:56 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <145.19cd6e1d.2caa1114@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:49:56 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: enlarging patterns from books? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com In a message dated 9/29/2003 3:25:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sbuchler@silicongenetics.com writes: > I photo copy the page (without changing it's size) and then draw a very > fine grid on it. Y'know...you could get graph paper with the grid already on it [usually in blue] and run it through the copier....copying the pattern on the already graded paper. Graph paper is usually 1/8" squares. If you can get the pattern to that scale, that would be helpful. To rescale the pattern you must know what the new size needs to be. If the CB neck to floor is say 50" then in 1/8th scale it needs to be multiplied by .125. [on the calculator:1 divided by [/] 8 = .125] so 50 x .125 = 6.25. So that CB measurement on the little pattern in the book should be six and a quarter inches. So what if it isn't. What if it's like 5.75. You'll need to blow it up a little on the Xerox. Here's what to remember: The NEW SIZE / OLD SIZE. No matter the numbers: The NEW SIZE / OLD SIZE...then move the decimal over 2 places to the right. This works every time to give you the percentage the image needs to be blown up or down. OK, so you've already given up 'cause it's too complicated. No it isn't. just remember:The NEW SIZE / OLD SIZE....decimal over 2 to the right. Period. Let's do it. The new size needs to be 6.25 The old size is 5.75 On the calculator new size / old size 6.25 / 5.75 = 1.0869565217391304347826086956522 WOW! Move the decimal over 2 [108] and forget the rest...noting the 3rd number after you move the decimal. If it's more than 5 you may want to round the number up. So in our example you need to blow up the image 108% [maybe 109%] This works every time. I swear. Shall we do one that needs to be smaller? Let's say the image in the book has a CB measurement of 9.5" but still needs to be 6.25" to fit in the 1/8" scale. New size into old size.... 6.25 / 9.50 = 0.65789473684210526315789473684211 move the decimal [65] but note the following 7 so round up. You need to Xerox it at 66% Hello? Is anybody still listening???? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 19:08:37 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TN8aIO013212 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:08:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TN8076026653 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:08:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TN7xX9006121; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:07:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from chori.chori.org (mail.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TN7sX9005991 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:07:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from [172.19.1.35] ([172.19.1.35] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.1) with ESMTP id 315730 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:07:49 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:12:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: enlarging patterns from books? From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <145.19cd6e1d.2caa1114@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Brilliant, Albert! I knew there was an easy way to figure it; I just didn't know the easy way. It went right over my head until you gave your example and it was really clear. Thank you! LynnD On 9/29/03 3:49 PM, "AlbertCat@aol.com" wrote: > In a message dated 9/29/2003 3:25:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > sbuchler@silicongenetics.com writes: > >> I photo copy the page (without changing it's size) and then draw a very >> fine grid on it. > > Y'know...you could get graph paper with the grid already on it [usually in > blue] and run it through the copier....copying the pattern on the already > graded > paper. Graph paper is usually 1/8" squares. If you can get the pattern to > that scale, that would be helpful. > > To rescale the pattern you must know what the new size needs to be. If the CB > neck to floor is say 50" then in 1/8th scale it needs to be multiplied by > .125. [on the calculator:1 divided by [/] 8 = .125] so 50 x .125 = 6.25. So > that > CB measurement on the little pattern in the book should be six and a quarter > inches. > > So what if it isn't. What if it's like 5.75. You'll need to blow it up a > little on the Xerox. Here's what to remember: The NEW SIZE / OLD SIZE. No > matter > the numbers: The NEW SIZE / OLD SIZE...then move the decimal over 2 places to > the right. This works every time to give you the percentage the image needs to > be blown up or down. > > OK, so you've already given up 'cause it's too complicated. No it isn't. just > remember:The NEW SIZE / OLD SIZE....decimal over 2 to the right. Period. > > Let's do it. > > The new size needs to be 6.25 > The old size is 5.75 > On the calculator new size / old size > 6.25 / 5.75 = 1.0869565217391304347826086956522 > > WOW! Move the decimal over 2 [108] and forget the rest...noting the 3rd > number after you move the decimal. If it's more than 5 you may want to round > the > number up. > > So in our example you need to blow up the image 108% [maybe 109%] > > This works every time. I swear. Shall we do one that needs to be smaller? > > Let's say the image in the book has a CB measurement of 9.5" but still needs > to be 6.25" to fit in the 1/8" scale. > > New size into old size.... > 6.25 / 9.50 = 0.65789473684210526315789473684211 > > move the decimal [65] but note the following 7 so round up. > > You need to Xerox it at 66% > > Hello? Is anybody still listening???? > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 19:19:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TNJPIO013260 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:19:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TNHu76027363 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:17:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TNHrX9012731; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:17:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TNHkXA012639 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:17:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h8TNIKT0024702 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:18:21 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h8TNIJFq024700 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:18:19 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:18:18 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> In-Reply-To: <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309291918.18616.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Monday 29 September 2003 10:43 am, Drea Leed wrote: [snip] > For linen dyes, all recipes I have seen involve a) an alum + tannin > premordant or b) a strongly alkaline/lye solution used in conjunction with > the dyebath. I haven't experiment with the lye-based "mordanting" yet, > but presumably it somehow helps to lock color into linen & fustian. > > Here are the dye recipes I have (almost all 16th c.) that mention linen. > Red is by far the most popular color mentioned. Enjoy! [text of recipes cut] I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the fact that there were this many recipes indicates that *somebody* was wearing linen as an outerlayer in the 16th c. Why go to the trouble of dyeing cloth that by and large wasn't going to be seen? Also, a number of the recipes are for fustian, which was worn as outerwear at least by the non-noble classes. -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 19:43:40 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TNhdIO013360 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:43:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TNgK76029128 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:42:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TNgIX9027877; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:42:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TNgEX9027789 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:42:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03529 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:57:12 -0500 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:57:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <3F7830B0.9B44AE30@in-tch.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I wrote: > > now midway through a new fitted dress > > eyelets done, body done > > tomorrow: sleeves! then 40 hand-done buttonholes & buttons Sue asked: > Oh, hey, did you finally find that blue wool you were looking for, or > is this another one? And what kind of buttons are you doing? Ah, this is a story of frustration. After two years of searching, I gave up on finding the right medium blue and bought a lovely piece of red wool. Then the day I was going to cut out the wool -- having already done the linen lining -- I went over to the Fashion Fabrics Club warehouse (I work for the brick-and-mortar outlet) with my manager to pick up some fabric, and while I was there I took a look through the new wools that had come in. Wonder of wonders, there was the perfect blue in a fine worsted twill. The manufacturer's tag, still on the bolt (actually there were about 10 bolts, each too heavy for me to lift alone) said 100% wool. I bought seven yards, took it home and washed it, and it came up soft and luxurious. And then I went to lay it out, and realized something was wrong. I did a bleach test, and yup, sure enough, it had a little lycra in it ... not enough to notice right off, but enough to give it some extra stretch. If this were any other project, I might have used it, but since my whole point for making this dress is to demonstrate the GFD technique of using straight-grain support and bias flexibility, even a tiny bit of lycra ruined it. Despite the mis-tagging from the manufacturer, the Fashion Fabrics website did get it right when they put the fabric online and marked it 3% lycra, so at least some of the bolts must have been properly marked. You can see my too-good-to-be-true blue wool here: http://www.fashionfabricsclub.com/home/catalog_itemdetail.cfm?ItmID=A343 Oddly, there's another page that's just gone up with something similar, being sold as 100% wool, but I wonder if it might be the same stuff anyway. The people who put the fabrics on the website can only go by what's on the manufacturer's tag, and I know there's some mislabeled wool in that warehouse: http://www.fashionfabricsclub.com/home/catalog_itemdetail.cfm?ItmID=A409 I'll investigate eventually, because if they've got some that isn't stretch, I want it. But alas, too late for this dress, because I have to have this done in time for KWCS and I'm cutting it close as it is. I went ahead and cut it in red. It looks good so far. I'm making it to replace my previous red silk underdress, which I was growing out of in stupid places like the upper arms and bust. First worry: will I get it done in time? Next worry: will my old red-and-blue wool overdress fit over the new underdress? Last night I tried it on and found the body was fine, but I had to cut down the neckline by an inch on the sides and back. I've done that, but not tried it on yet; I hope this doesn't ruin the fit, which depends a lot on shoulder/neckline play. I'm handicapped here because I can't touch and manipulate the back; I have to use a mirror and my husband, who doesn't sew ("OK, pull on that bit, do you feel any tension? Take this chalk, and mark right where your thumb is -- no, I meant the other thumb..."). As to buttons: I'm handmaking the buttonholes, but I bought the buttons. I found some that look like they're brass with a copper edge, which would be an accurate content for period buttons and better than the average gold or silver metallic buttons in stores. They're about an eighth-inch wider than I'd like and too flat for my taste, but they'll do unless/until I find better ones. Though once I sew forty of them on, I doubt I'll ever want to replace them! --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 19:44:53 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8TNirIO013374 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:44:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TNhj76029229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:43:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8TNhjX9028749; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:43:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web12005.mail.yahoo.com (web12005.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.213]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8TNhhX9028731 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:43:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030929234343.20867.qmail@web12005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [206.221.225.208] by web12005.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:43:43 PDT Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:43:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Cascio Michael To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [h-cost] coating wool seam finishes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Cleaning out my sewing stash I have come across some sheep wool/camel hair coating weight wool in a nice camel/caramel color. How should I finish the edges? If I full the fabric then I shouldn't need to do edge finishes should I? I have enough for a cloak or a modest houppelande but I think it's too heavy for a GFD. Any thoughts? cassandra __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 20:24:22 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U0OMIO013469 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:24:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U0Na76001814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:23:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U0NVHi020429; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:23:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U0NRHi020395 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:23:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from KatHouse (ip203.174-173-207.eli-du.nwlink.com [207.173.174.203]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED87B6A836 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 17:21:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: enlarging patterns from books? Message-ID: <3F786A16.2403.1B31C84F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <445E782ED9213F40922903173696C8848B54F8@incoming.sigenetics.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > I buy rolls of paper from art stores. You can buy rolls of paper > between 2 and 5 feet wide and they're something like 100 feet on the > roll ('fraid I don't have it with me to check). Expect to pay between > 15 and 25$ depending on the weight of paper you're looking for. This is good stuff. I get tracing paper weight stuff about 45" wide (about like many fabrics, so it's great for pattern drafting.) I usually buy about 4 rolls at a time (so I get a lower price for a longer period.) I go through a roll in about 2 years (but I use it *a lot*. It would last "forever" for most people.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 20:26:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U0QIIO013476 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:26:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U0PT76001926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:25:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U0PSHi021412; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:25:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from krwoodworks.com (65.18.190.ptr [65.18.190.119] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U0PPHi021342 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:25:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from LINDO3.rileyhome.net (pcp04325862pcs.waldrf01.md.comcast.net [68.49.7.219]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by krwoodworks.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8U0PIsM026825 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:25:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: krwoodworks.com: krwoodwor owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929202258.02261270@mail.rileyhome.net> X-Sender: mara@mail.rileyhome.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:23:32 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: Mara Riley In-Reply-To: <200309291918.18616.cathy@thyrsus.com> References: <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] 16th c. clothes loops? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Just saw this on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=115&item=3236465034 So, how exactly would it be used? -- Mara _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 21:35:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U1YxIO013647 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:35:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U1Y876005650 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:34:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U1Y6NM024132; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:34:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from brazilnut.cc.columbia.edu (IDENT:cu41754@brazilnut.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.59.203]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U1Y2NN024096 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:34:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from VAIO (dyn-shp-225-184.dyn.columbia.edu [160.39.225.184]) (user=asj2001 mech=LOGIN bits=0)h8U1Y06A023163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004301c386f2$59f45be0$9865fea9@VAIO> From: "Alexia S. Jacobs" To: Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:29:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] 18th Century bum pads X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id h8U1YxIO013647 Does anyone know of any extant examples or accounts of the construction of 18th century bum pads, particularly those worn in the '70's but also later ones? One reads accounts of them everywhere, and Nancy Bradfield has small diagrams of various shapes. Where did she find these? How would you recommend making one for a '70's French robe a la polonaise? Cork ones appeared in the '80's or '90's, something I have some trouble visualizing. Does anyone know how these were constructed? Thank you Alexia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 21:51:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U1pgIO013684 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:51:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U1oq76006622 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:50:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U1ooNM001622; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:50:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from topcat.systemsfirm.net (pcp822378pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.49.41.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U1olNM001591 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:50:48 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:50:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Re: enlarging patterns/pattern paper/calculations Thread-Index: AcOG9GEQqfabH+I+Qt6Ef7MpQI7M0g== From: "A.Thurman" To: "Historic Costume List (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8U1olNM001591 Subject: [h-cost] Re: enlarging patterns/pattern paper/calculations X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I'm listening, Albert! I'm listening to all of you, and saving these emails. You've all offered some very good suggestions! Right now I'm busily looking for a free/cheap paper source due to economic considerations. I'm sure my local art store does have paper if nothing else pans out. Then what I'm going to do is apply Albert's math to the pattern and see what I can do. It is a *very* simple pattern, mostly perpendicular straight lines with a curved edge. It is a cape, so no sleeves, armholes etc. to worry with. If I can get one of my measurements to coordinate with one of the pattern measurements, it should be a good start (crosses fingers). Thank you all! Allison T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 21:55:56 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U1ttIO013715 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:55:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U1t576006888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:55:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U1t5KH003618; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:55:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U1t1NM003536 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:55:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8U1ssOE004237 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:54:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030929213808.06439928@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:54:36 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-cost] RE: enlarging patterns from books? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sunny wrote: >If it's a large pattern then the copier is too much work -- I photo copy >the page (without changing it's size) and then draw a very fine grid on >it. Then I draw a much larger replica of the grid on my roll of paper. If your paper is see-through enough, put it over a gridded mat instead. Lots less work! If you rotary cut, you probably have that large mat any way; if not, it's not a bad investment (or you can get one of those fold-out cardboard gridded "layout boards" for sewers). Brenda webwarren@earthlink.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 22:42:31 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U2gUIO014238 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:42:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U2fT76009617 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:41:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U2fRKH025881; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:41:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp800.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp800.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.179]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8U2fOKH025854 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:41:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from adsl-67-116-254-20.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net (HELO hopperflop2) (kendrav@sbcglobal.net@67.116.254.20 with login) by smtp-sbc-v1.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 02:41:24 -0000 Message-ID: <015101c386fc$56dbc5b0$ea44fea9@hopperflop2> From: "Kendra Van Cleave" To: "Historical Costume" References: <004301c386f2$59f45be0$9865fea9@VAIO> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th Century bum pads Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:41:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I would love to know the answer to this too! I've seen the same drawings in Bradfield, but wondered how to practically make it work. I was watching _Affair of the Necklace_ the other day, and I noticed that they got that 1780's round shape by using a short hoop (about mid-thigh) that was more prominent in back than in front -- but I have no idea if this is period. Thoughts anyone? - Kendra http://demode.tweedlebop.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 22:47:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U2lhIO014250 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:47:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U2km76009889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:46:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U2klKH028287; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:46:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from webwarren.com (65.18.210.ptr [65.18.210.91] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U2kiKH028197 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:46:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jessica.webwarren.com (bgp380694bgs.plnfld01.nj.comcast.net [68.36.16.142]) (authenticated (0 bits)) by webwarren.com (8.12.9/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8U2kbPC026693 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:46:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: webwarren.com: webbwarren owned process doing -bs Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030929220608.06433630@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: arachne@pop.webwarren.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:41:44 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Brenda Bell Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th Century bum pads Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com "Alexia S. Jacobs" inquired: >Does anyone know of any extant examples or accounts of the construction of >18th century bum pads, particularly those worn in the '70's but also later >ones? One reads accounts of them everywhere, and Nancy Bradfield has >small diagrams of various shapes. Where did she find these? From the columbia.edu address in your e-mail, I'm presuming you're in NYC. The Costume Institute of the Metropolitan Museum of Art has at least two examples of corsets with hip pads from "third quarter 18th century"; they are displayed in _Extreme Beauty: The Body Transformed_, Harold Koda, Metropolitan Museum of Art press, copyright 2001. ISBN 1-58839-014-4 (hardcover); a softcover edition exists as well. You may still find some copies of it at the Strand Bookstore's annex down in the South Street Seaport area (corner William and Fulton streets, take the 2 or 3 to Fulton or the A or C to Broadway-Nassau). Better yet, phone over to the Costume Institute and make an appointment to see them. They are accession numbers CI39.13.211 and CI39.13.206a,b. Brenda Faith Bell webwarren@earthlink.net Consultant, The Web Warren http://www.webwarren.com/ arachne@webwarren.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Sep 29 23:34:21 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U3YLIO014370 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:34:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U3Wl76012408 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:32:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U3WjoX020199; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:32:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U3WhoX020171 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:32:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from 66-44-3-200.s962.apx1.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com ([66.44.3.200] helo=erols.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #4) id 1A4BFi-0003io-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:32:42 -0400 Message-ID: <3F792416.5136AE4B@erols.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:35:02 -0700 From: "David S. Mallinak" Organization: Red Dragon Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] long paper References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Jennifer Sena wrote: > > >>For long paper, try someplace like "Smart-n-Final", "Costco" or "Sam's > >>Club", the bulk food warehouses. They sell rolls of butcher paper, I used > >>to use it for absolutely everything. You'll have to buy a big roll, but > >>you'll never run out! I have also seen rolls of buther paper sold in the painting section of Home Depot -- Your humble and obediant servant, David S Mallinak _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 00:07:43 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U47gIO014465 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:07:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U46u76014204 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:06:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U46tSS005703; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:06:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U46qSS005686 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:06:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h8U46pFp000098 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.196.44] (as3-4-58.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.44]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U45WJc028936 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 21:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <008601c386b3$aa462ea0$1d694ed5@pavilion> References: <001401c386 <008601c386b3$aa462ea0$1d694ed5@pavilion> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:43:07 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id h8U46qSS005686 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 7:01 PM +0100 9/29/03, Melanie Wilson wrote: > >The linen lining of the 15th c. "satin coat of Charles the Bold" is a >very dark gray or even something reasonably called black. That's the >darkest item I've seen from the period.  > >Have you a ref for the article please ? Deuchler, Florens. 1963. Die Burgunderbeute. Verlag Stämpfli & Cie, Bern. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 00:46:28 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U4kSIO014539 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:46:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U4jd76016975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:45:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U4jZSS022978; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:45:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U4jVST022917 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:45:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dandy.net (acty5035.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.250.35]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h8U4jSao008225 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:45:30 -0400 Message-ID: <3F790A60.8010504@dandy.net> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:45:20 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th c. clothes loops? References: <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030929202258.02261270@mail.rileyhome.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030929202258.02261270@mail.rileyhome.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi, All. Hi, Mara. Mike Tartaglio here. I don'y know how the braided (copper?) cording was used, but the other wire items were usually used like modern hooks and eyes. It looks like a pair of them are attached to a central ring set-up, and sewn through the loops to the fabric. Perhaps the cording was either a reenforcement for a collar, or to prevent the collar from falling open too much (like the chain on 19th-20th Cent. British police cloaks). I have one hook (no eye) that was probably used to hold the doublet to the breeches. I made copies and put them on my linen suit that you saw at St. Maries last year. Bill Ruppert also sells them, his are copies of ones he dug up aling the James/Chesapeake areas. I've never seen them in that set-up, but I seem to remember them from the MoL reserve collection info that I got from the past Plimoth Plantation costume director. I'll try and find that illo in my *archives* (also known as that piggy mess of docs that someday I will get around to cleaning up). It also might just be a collection of finds that were thrown together at some point. Cheers, Mike T. Mara Riley wrote: > Just saw this on Ebay: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=115&item=3236465034 > > > So, how exactly would it be used? > > -- Mara > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 02:49:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U6nfIO000537 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:49:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U6n276021735 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:49:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U6mxjW018674; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:48:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector1.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U6mujW018613 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:48:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (213-78-107-100.friaco.onetel.net.uk [213.78.107.100] (may be forged))3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AJK19228; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:48:43 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <028801c3871f$a91d1fe0$1d694ed5@pavilion> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:54:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >I'm handicapped here because I can't touch and manipulate the back; I have to use a mirror and my husband, who doesn't sew Start training you kids Robin ! I trust my son to help me with fitting anytime, years of practice he is ace at it now ;) The girls are getting better too. Gareth ? naw he never seems to fit equally I end up looking a very strange shape ;) Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 03:44:02 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U7i1IO019119 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:44:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U7gH76023787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:42:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U7gGfx013375; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:42:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U7gCfx013347 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:42:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA05655 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:20:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 02:20:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <028801c3871f$a91d1fe0$1d694ed5@pavilion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com I wrote, about fitting: > >I'm handicapped here because I > can't touch and manipulate the back; I have to use a mirror and my > husband, who doesn't sew Melanie said: > Start training you kids Robin ! I trust my son to help me with fitting > anytime, years of practice he is ace at it now ;) Good in theory, as my 10yo might manage (the 6yo would not), but I do most of my sewing while they are in bed or at school! They're helping me cook, though. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 03:59:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8U7xNIO025295 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 03:59:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U7st76024261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:54:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U7ssfx018483; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:54:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8U7sqfx018468 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 01:54:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be12.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.18]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0708B262B3A for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:54:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003101c38728$763b5f70$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <004301c386f2$59f45be0$9865fea9@VAIO> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th Century bum pads Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:57:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi Alexia, Actually i have never seen any real ones. But i have used Nancy Bradfields drawings many times. I have made some just cut round in the shape, 2 pieces sewed together, turned round and stuffed with polyester stuff. But i have also made some wich are gathered at the waist. These has a waist tape attached to the gathereing. They work fine both. There are also some real mini paniers (Kyoto book) consisting of 1 small hoop and some padding in the sides. I havent tryed that. The bumroll should be widest at the center back, starting very small center front and gradually getting wider and wider. I think the cork ones was small tiny bits of cork stuffed in the roll. They were popular because they were lightweight ones, but i dont understand because wool would have ben just as lightweighted as cork? Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexia S. Jacobs" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 3:29 AM Subject: [h-cost] 18th Century bum pads Does anyone know of any extant examples or accounts of the construction of 18th century bum pads, particularly those worn in the '70's but also later ones? One reads accounts of them everywhere, and Nancy Bradfield has small diagrams of various shapes. Where did she find these? How would you recommend making one for a '70's French robe a la polonaise? Cork ones appeared in the '80's or '90's, something I have some trouble visualizing. Does anyone know how these were constructed? Thank you Alexia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 08:44:51 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UCipIO023079 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:44:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UCiH76005724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:44:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UCiF4B005682; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:44:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UCiE4B005667 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:44:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234])h8UCiCPY015523 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20030930084046.00b67e98@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:44:15 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <200309291918.18616.cathy@thyrsus.com> References: <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> <20030929095959.P51417-100000@shell.siscom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Just ran across a passage in an inventory which stated that x number of braccae in linen (can't recall the italian right off) were bought for linings of ambassadorial cioppas. So this hints that perhaps some colored linens were used as linings, where they wouldn't see the light of day continually, therefore be able to hold a color longer. Possible.... Bridgette >On Monday 29 September 2003 10:43 am, Drea Leed wrote: >[snip] > >I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the fact that there were this many >recipes indicates that *somebody* was wearing linen as an outerlayer in the >16th c. Why go to the trouble of dyeing cloth that by and large wasn't going >to be seen? Also, a number of the recipes are for fustian, which was worn as >outerwear at least by the non-noble classes. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 08:46:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UCkxIO023093 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:46:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UCkP76005827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:46:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UCkP4B006603; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:46:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UCkN4B006556 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:46:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a228.in-tch.com [66.62.107.28]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h8UCPqb24560 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:25:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3F797BA5.80CF5B92@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:48:37 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Montage;Touch America} (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th Century bum pads References: <004301c386f2$59f45be0$9865fea9@VAIO> <003101c38728$763b5f70$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wool, though, could become compacted and hard, if it felted itself within the roll covers. Cork bits would just stay cork bits. (well, it sounds reasonable, anyway ) --sue Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > > I think the cork ones was small tiny bits of cork stuffed in the roll. They > were popular because they were lightweight ones, but i dont understand > because wool would have ben just as lightweighted as cork? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 09:17:00 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UDGxIO023211 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:16:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UDG876007647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:16:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UDG6Sf020463; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:16:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail.siscom.net (mail2.siscom.net [209.251.18.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8UDG4Sf020453 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:16:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 713 invoked by uid 1005); 30 Sep 2003 13:15:36 -0000 Received: from drea@nospam by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.14 (f-prot: 3.12. Clear:. Processed in 0.209804 secs); 30 Sep 2003 13:15:36 -0000 X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: drea@nospam X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.14 (Clear:. Processed in 0.209804 secs) Received: from shell.siscom.net (209.251.2.80) by mail.siscom.net with SMTP; 30 Sep 2003 13:15:35 -0000 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:15:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Drea Leed To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: enlarging patterns/pattern paper/calculations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030930091452.P67655-100000@shell.siscom.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > Right now I'm busily looking for a free/cheap paper source due to economic considerations. I'm sure my local art store does have paper if nothing else pans out. > I got some from an auto body place--the paper they use to tape over the windows of a car when they paint. They may have it cheaper there... Drea _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 10:33:32 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UEXVIO023394 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:33:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UEWp76012698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:32:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UEWkT7004237; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:32:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from web13407.mail.yahoo.com (web13407.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h8UEWhT7004200 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:32:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <20030930143239.82416.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [205.153.36.170] by web13407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:32:39 PDT Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:32:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Mara Riley Subject: Re: [h-cost] 16th c. clothes loops? To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <3F790A60.8010504@dandy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Hi, Mike, thanks! I should have clarified, I was mostly intrigued by the braided cording; I did notice the resemblance between the hooks/eyes and the ones Ruppert sells (I have a pair on my cloak). Reinforcement for a collar makes sense. Regards, Mara --- michael tartaglio wrote: > Hi, All. Hi, Mara. Mike Tartaglio here. I don'y know how the > braided > (copper?) cording was used, but the other wire items were usually > used > like modern hooks and eyes. It looks like a pair of them are > attached to > a central ring set-up, and sewn through the loops to the fabric. > Perhaps > the cording was either a reenforcement for a collar, or to prevent > the > collar from falling open too much (like the chain on 19th-20th > Cent. > British police cloaks). I have one hook (no eye) that was probably > used > to hold the doublet to the breeches. I made copies and put them on > my > linen suit that you saw at St. Maries last year. Bill Ruppert also > sells > them, his are copies of ones he dug up aling the James/Chesapeake > areas. > I've never seen them in that set-up, but I seem to remember them > from > the MoL reserve collection info that I got from the past Plimoth > Plantation costume director. I'll try and find that illo in my > *archives* (also known as that piggy mess of docs that someday I > will > get around to cleaning up). It also might just be a collection of > finds > that were thrown together at some point. Cheers, Mike T. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 10:55:24 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UEtOIO023449 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:55:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UEpK76014166 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:51:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UEpIT7018270; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:51:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UEpFT7018239 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:51:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from dialup-63.208.46.250.dial1.saintlouis1.level3.net ([63.208.46.250] helo=Dan) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1A4LqN-0000on-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:51:15 -0400 Message-ID: <003c01c38762$bb5a2de0$fa2ed03f@Dan> From: "Genie" To: "Historical Costume" References: <145.19cd6e1d.2caa1114@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: enlarging patterns from books? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:54:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: enlarging patterns from books? > Hello? Is anybody still listening???? > __Thanks, Albert this help a lot. G ; )_____________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 11:23:41 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UFNfIO023533 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:23:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UFJT76017037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:19:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UFJRcZ012366; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:19:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UFJMcZ012306 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:19:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08080 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:42:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:42:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030930084046.00b67e98@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the fact that there were > this many recipes indicates that *somebody* was wearing linen as an > outerlayer in the 16th c. Why go to the trouble of dyeing cloth that > by and large wasn't going to be seen? Also, a number of the recipes > are for fustian, which was worn as outerwear at least by the non-noble > classes. Since this seems to have been lost in translation (as has happened before when we've discussed this topic): I don't think anyone has disputed the use of dyed linen (or linen for outerlayers) in the 16th c. The question was whether colored linen would be used as the outer layer of a cotehardie, for which I have seen absolutely no evidence (and a strong absence of evidence). A couple hundred years makes a lot of difference in fashion, and we can't extrapolate backwards in this case. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 12:41:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UGfqIO024360 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:41:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UGbd76024147 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:37:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UGbPUC019301; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:37:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UGbCUC019126 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:37:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-67-121-125-223.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.121.125.223])h8UGatw9028358 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:37:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030930091033.05ac28a0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:14:36 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Holbein In-Reply-To: <20030926182607.55129.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/holbein/gisze.jpg > > >This is the first time I've run across this particular >Holbein. The garment seems very simple although of >rich materials. I grew up with a copy of "Life's Picture History of Western Man", one of the first illustrated books from what became Time/Life. (It's from like 1952, and only has a few color pictures in it.) Anyway, it has a full page illo of this - like 12" x 14" - with enough detail that I copied the border of the rug, tuft by tuft, in needlepoint, right from the book. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 12:42:59 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UGgxIO024366 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:42:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UGdC76024313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:39:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UGdBUC020970; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:39:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UGbkUC019612 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:37:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-67-121-125-223.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [67.121.125.223])h8UGatwB028358 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:37:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20030930092527.00d90160@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:30:49 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books In-Reply-To: <3F76312B.5010403@fenris.net> References: <001a01c3852d$4c6adc40$6b5183d1@rmitchellras> <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> <200309242120.45611.cathy@thyrsus.com> <002b01c3849e$714125e0$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> <3F75D834.DC365685@in-tch.com> <001a01c3852d$4c6adc40$6b5183d1@rmitchellras> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >>Having just spent most of the day reshelving my library, I came across my >>copy of MS Brooks and was struck anew with the primitive illustrations. They >>make Peacock look like an "Old Master'. If I take time to read the chapters, >>I wonder how far off she was, given the scholarship of the time.(Pub. when?) >>Of more interest to me, I rediscovered the following. Any comments? >>Calthrop, English Costume, 4 volumes, 1906 >> >> >Oh good grief! I have that one (calthrop) but in one volume. I was >fascinated by it when I was a kid. I have it because it is a rare book, >not because it is a costume book. >The drawings are beautiful watercolors (I think) but they seem to have >little to do with historical costume. OTOH, some of the 19-teens and 1920s costume books, which purport to be all the world's costumes in one book, are invaluable to those of us doing historical ethnic costumes. Fuzzy tho they are, some of these illos are the only recorded images of folk costumes now extinct. I treasure a couple of this sort of book in my own library, but only for the ethnic stuff and the fact that they are probably collectable. -snip- > Shoot, Gorsline and Braun&Schneider are better than that! Braun&Schneider is perfect if you're doing Victorian 'fancy dress', which I sometimes do. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 13:58:05 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UHw5IO025028 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:58:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UHur76002257 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:56:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UHuprh001804; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:56:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from fed1mtao06.cox.net (fed1mtao06.cox.net [68.6.19.125]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UHulrh001661 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:56:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smtp.west.cox.net ([172.18.180.53]) by fed1mtao06.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with SMTP id <20030930175641.VQJG14069.fed1mtao06.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:56:41 -0400 From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Re: enlarging patterns/pattern paper/calculations Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:56:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20030930175641.VQJG14069.fed1mtao06.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > > Right now I'm busily looking for a free/cheap paper source due to economic considerations. I'm sure my local art store does have paper if nothing else pans out. > When I need large semi-transparent paper on a pattern-by-pattern basis, I use paper tablecloths from the party section of discount stores. Good Luck! Heidi _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 14:00:26 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UI0PIO025046 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:00:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UHxW76002530 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:59:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UHxWrh004366; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:59:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from msgdirector2.onetel.net.uk (IDENT:mirapoint@msgdirector2.onetel.net.uk [212.67.96.149]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UHxSrh004167 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:59:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pavilion (213-78-119-116.friaco.onetel.net.uk [213.78.119.116]) 3.3.6-GR) with SMTP id AJV83838; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:31:29 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <01f201c38779$6ecc9640$646b4ed5@pavilion> From: "Melanie Wilson" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:36:50 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com >Good in theory, as my 10yo might manage (the 6yo would not), but I do most of my sewing while they are in bed or at school! Well train them for the sake of any future daughters in law ;) >They're helping me cook, though. Brill Mel This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the Company, unless specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 14:42:15 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UIgFIO025403 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:42:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UIfL76006480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:41:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UIeirh010801; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:40:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [193.162.153.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UIeVrh010615 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:40:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be12.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.18]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CC438262AFD for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:40:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000901c38782$bd755f30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:43:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 Subject: [h-cost] period flowers X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com It is very quiet on the list today, so i thoaght about telling you a little of my process in making an embroidery pattern for my new Duchesse Satin Suit. The year of the suit is 1766, and i suddently realised, that the design i was working with, was a little two modern for this. The flower sprays are very naturalistic, two naturalistic for this suit in my point of view. It would work fine for a 1770 ies suit, but............ Then i have studyed Nathalie Rotsteins book about english silks and it seems to me that the suit would be better made, if i followed the style for the 60ies. The flowers are more ornamental, than naturalistic. So i finally ended up with a new design. Two different flowers repeated after eachother all way down the center fronts jacket. Lined with silver bobbin lace. On pale blue duchesse, i ended up with one flowerspray with pale yellow flowers, and then a peony in pink. I think it will be fine colors on the silk. Leaves will be in advocado greens. All day i have worked on a watercolour of the flowers, and i will finish it tomorrow. I shall post for you to follow my work. Apropos books. Did any of you have Nathalie Rothstein big book about Anna Maria Garthwaite's silk designs? I looked trough this book at the library today. It is much better than the smaller version from V&A, doubble as big i think. It could not be lented home, so i think i want to see if Amazon has it! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 15:04:29 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UJ4SIO025571 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:04:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UJ2n76008275 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:02:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UJ2kAS028634; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:02:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UJ2gAS028522 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:02:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from reddawn.net (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5D35425D0 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:04:59 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <3F79D31F.5030905@reddawn.net> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:01:51 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: enlarging patterns/pattern paper/calculations References: <20030930175641.VQJG14069.fed1mtao06.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> In-Reply-To: <20030930175641.VQJG14069.fed1mtao06.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com mudsleidi@cox.net wrote: >>Right now I'm busily looking for a free/cheap paper source due to > > economic considerations. I'm sure my local art store does have paper if > nothing else pans out. > > > When I need large semi-transparent paper on a pattern-by-pattern basis, I use paper tablecloths from the party section of discount stores. > Similarly, gift wrapping tissue is available almost everywhere. You can get a package with 20 sheets for under a dollar. It's large enough for bodices, sleeves, and the fitted portions of larger pattern pieces. For something like a princess dress, I'll trace the neck and arm lines, and then just draw the line to the hem freehand with chalk right onto the fabric. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 15:04:54 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UJ4rIO025576 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:04:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UIwh76007852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:58:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UIwfAS024892; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:58:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UIwbAS024767 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:58:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from reddawn.net (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37704425D0 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:00:54 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <3F79D22A.8040805@reddawn.net> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 13:57:46 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: worst book (was [h-cost] Books References: <001a01c3852d$4c6adc40$6b5183d1@rmitchellras> <3F70D84B.8020101@reddawn.net> <4.3.1.2.20030923190840.0519c9d0@mail.frys.com> <200309242120.45611.cathy@thyrsus.com> <002b01c3849e$714125e0$6e5183d1@rmitchellras> <3F75D834.DC365685@in-tch.com> <001a01c3852d$4c6adc40$6b5183d1@rmitchellras> <4.3.1.2.20030930092527.00d90160@mail.frys.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20030930092527.00d90160@mail.frys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com > OTOH, some of the 19-teens and 1920s costume books, which purport to be > all the world's costumes in one book, are invaluable to those of us > doing historical ethnic costumes. Fuzzy tho they are, some of these > illos are the only recorded images of folk costumes now extinct. I > treasure a couple of this sort of book in my own library, but only for > the ethnic stuff and the fact that they are probably collectable. I have a couple "encyclopedia of world costume" type books that I love simply because they are so heavily illustrated. The text varies from inane to outright inaccurate, but the selection of photos and reproduced art makes them well worth their weight in postage. And even if the picture is small and black-and-white, I can usually get a reference I can look up in a better book or an online gallery. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 16:20:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UKKqIO025901 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:20:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UKHg76015180 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:17:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UKHbGP008667; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:17:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from imo-r07.mx.aol.com (imo-r07.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UKHXGP008536 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:17:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from IceGirlNIN@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id 6.20.199a5d77 (3310) for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:16:38 -0400 (EDT) From: IceGirlNIN@aol.com Message-ID: <20.199a5d77.2cab3ea5@aol.com> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:16:37 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.1 Subject: [h-cost] Burn Tests and fusible interfacing X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Well, I purchased 33 yards of 22" wide silk for $53 off of eBay, and it arrived at my home. Because I'm at college, my parents sent a swatch, and it arrived. To my annoyance, the whole thing seems to have been backed with a fusible interfacing-type stuff, which was not noted by the seller. I did a burn test despite the probability of off-results due to the interfacing. Smells like burnt hair, and has something of the ash quality that silk does- but the interfacing "melts". I plan to use this stuff for a historical in CC22, if I can get the dress done in time. So..does anyone know of a non-fabric-ruining way to get rid of the interfacing? Or do I note it in the documentation, plan to line the skirt, and move on with life? Christine _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 16:29:01 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8UKT1IO025938 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:29:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UKS376015964 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:28:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UKS2GP017464; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:28:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8UKRsGP017377 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:27:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from karen (CPE-24-31-232-172.kc.rr.com [24.31.232.172]) h8UKRqhL021977 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:27:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Talia" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Burn Tests and fusible interfacing Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:27:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <20.199a5d77.2cab3ea5@aol.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com First, complain to the seller and explain why you're unhappy. Then try this: Removing Fused Interfacing To remove interfacing that has been fused in place, hold a steam iron over interfacing for 5 - 10 seconds. Immediately peel off the interfacing. If it is still adhered, set the iron on the interfacing, but do not use pressure. To remove any fusing agent that remains on the fabric, cover it with a damp, lightweight fabric scrap and press. Peel off while warm. Continue with new scraps until all the adhesive can be removed by sponging the area with rubbing alcohol--but be sure the fabric or dye will not be affected. Good luck! Talia > I plan to use this stuff for a historical in CC22, if I can get the dress > done in time. So..does anyone know of a non-fabric-ruining way > to get rid of the > interfacing? Or do I note it in the documentation, plan to line > the skirt, > and move on with life? > > Christine _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 17:47:13 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h8ULlDIO026418 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:47:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ULjq76023011 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:45:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ULjnd0024558; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:45:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h8ULjkd0024453 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:45:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from reddawn.net (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610C6425D0 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:48:03 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <3F79F957.2070900@reddawn.net> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:44:55 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Burn Tests and fusible interfacing References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Talia wrote: > First, complain to the seller and explain why you're unhappy. Then try this: > > Removing Fused Interfacing > To remove interfacing that has been fused in place, hold a steam iron over > interfacing for 5 - 10 seconds. Immediately peel off the interfacing. This will generally work with something like Pellon that was applied at home. However, test a swatch first. I'm working with some satin that I am interfacing to give it more body, and I've had to remove a few pieces. The interfacing came right off, but the weave of the fabric was affected by many tiny pulls. It's not terribly noticeable in the small areas I've done, due to the matte surface of the satin, but on a silk or a fabric with a sheen it may ruin the weave. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Sep 30 22:03:52 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h9123qIO029475 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:03:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9123076010667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:03:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9122s3n001295; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:02:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9122n3o001243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:02:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9123TT0028742 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:03:30 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h9123Sig028740 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:03:28 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie lining fabric? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:03:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200309302203.27741.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com On Tuesday 30 September 2003 11:42 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the fact that there were > > this many recipes indicates that *somebody* was wearing linen as an > > outerlayer in the 16th c. Why go to the trouble of dyeing cloth that > > by and large wasn't going to be seen? Also, a number of the recipes > > are for fustian, which was worn as outerwear at least by the non-noble > > classes. > > Since this seems to have been lost in translation (as has happened before > when we've discussed this topic): I don't think anyone has disputed the > use of dyed linen (or linen for outerlayers) in the 16th c. The question > was whether colored linen would be used as the outer layer of a > cotehardie, for which I have seen absolutely no evidence (and a strong > absence of evidence). A couple hundred years makes a lot of difference in > fashion, and we can't extrapolate backwards in this case. True enough. However, the only evidence of dye recipes that anyone had posted in the thread thus far was Drea's post with examples of 16thc dye recipes for linen. I was responding to that. So I guess my question now is: does anyone know of 14th c (or earlier) dye recipes specifically for linen? -- Cathy Raymond "Adult life seems to be a cross between a zen koan and a cattle stampede." --Ozy and Millie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Oct 1 00:00:44 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h9140iIO000500 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 00:00:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h913w376016820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:58:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h913vw6g020916; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:57:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h913vs6g020878 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:57:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h913vrFp004081 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.196.142] (as3-4-156.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.142])h913vXJa003634 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3F797BA5.80CF5B92@in-tch.com> References: <004301c386f2$59f45be0$9865fea9@VAIO> <003101c38728$763b5f70$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <3F797BA5.80CF5B92@in-tch.com> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:53:27 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th Century bum pads Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 6:48 AM -0600 9/30/03, Sue Clemenger wrote: >Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: >> >> I think the cork ones was small tiny bits of cork stuffed in the roll. They >> were popular because they were lightweight ones, but i dont understand > > because wool would have ben just as lightweighted as cork? >Wool, though, could become compacted and hard, if it felted itself >within the roll covers. Cork bits would just stay cork bits. >(well, it sounds reasonable, anyway ) >--sue > I used wool to stuff some 15th c. sleeve puffs on a man's doublet and with only a few wearings the stuffing felted down to small wads and I had to find another solution. Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Oct 1 00:09:18 2003 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h9149HIO000698 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 2003 00:09:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9141A76016945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:01:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost.indra.com [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h914196g022300; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:01:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (socrates.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.25.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h913w56g020964 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:58:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from socrates.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by socrates.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h913w4Fp004685 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [136.152.196.142] (as3-4-156.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.196.142])h913vXJc003634 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030930175641.VQJG14069.fed1mtao06.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> References: <20030930175641.VQJG14069.fed1mtao06.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> X-mailer: Eudora Pro 5.1r Macintosh Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 19:57:25 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Re: enlarging patterns/pattern paper/calculations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com At 1:56 PM -0400 9/30/03, wrote: > > >> Right now I'm busily looking for a free/cheap paper source due to >economic considerations. I'm sure my local art store does have paper if >nothing else pans out. >> > >When I need large semi-transparent paper on a pattern-by-pattern >basis, I use paper tablecloths from the party section of discount >stores. I once found a roll of paper tablecloth that even had an embossed pattern of one-inch squares! Heather -- ***** Heather Rose Jones hrjones@socrates.berkeley.edu ***** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume