From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 02:00:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6160KRM000863 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:00:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i615vdd5002247 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:57:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i615vdth022022; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:57:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i615vbth022011 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:57:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20hj.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.51] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BfuZl-0002m5-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:57:37 -0700 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040701003730.021ba6c8@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 00:40:02 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200406301306.i5UD6Mti092612@net.indra.com> References: <200406301306.i5UD6Mti092612@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Links X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Are some of you actually seeing a picture? When I go to the link, I get a description, but no picture. Have had that problem always with Fabric dot com. Maybe it's browser specific? It's no fun not seeing the stuff. Sandy >Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:24:40 -0700 >From: "Stephen Bergdahl" >Subject: [h-cost] PLAID > >Look Fabric Dot Com has the Tartan of Teddy's Clan! > >http://store.yahoo.com/phoenixtextiles/aa-765.html > >Stephen "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 05:14:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i619EERM028575 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:14:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619Bkd5011589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:11:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619Bcth098188; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:11:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619BQth098128 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:11:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:10:19 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] PLAID To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEAA@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] PLAID Thread-Index: AcRezUzAMk9hwZ1ZRsaM6f2u1O+ofwAfb0tw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Well Teddy said he isn't going to buy some, but I love it > too. So what do you all think, Kilt, Houp or an Elizabethan > with Purple trim? Houpellande A *BIG* houpellande with one sleeve lined in orange and one in pink. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 05:16:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i619G2RM028594 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:16:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619Esd5011731 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:14:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619Erth099361; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:14:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619EQth099188 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:14:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:12:58 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Woo Hoo! To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEAB@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Woo Hoo! Thread-Index: AcRezUzAMk9hwZ1ZRsaM6f2u1O+ofwAffUhw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > --- Catherine Kinsey wrote: > Woo Hoo! > Teddy and Nicole are back! Nice to see you guys, so when are > > you going to post pics of what you have been up to :)? > > > > Catherine > > Hi Catherine :-) Nicole said: > I haven't been up to much, mainly been writing and not > sewing. Besides, I lost so much weight (three sizes) that > none of my costumes fits anymore. And I have the same problem from the opposite directin, I've gained so much weight that very few of mine fit..... And I'm seldom organized enough to get pictures of the stuff I make, nor get them posted anywhere if I do get around to taking them. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 05:19:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i619JqRM028640 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:19:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619J9d5012099 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:19:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619J8th001079; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:19:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com ([212.17.54.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619J3th000962 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:19:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lstrid@mglarc.com) Received: by oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:16:46 +0100 Message-ID: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A6443@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> From: Lena Strid To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] PLAID Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:16:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >> Well Teddy said he isn't going to buy some, but I love it >> too. So what do you all think, Kilt, Houp or an Elizabethan >> with Purple trim? > >Houpellande > >A *BIG* houpellande with one sleeve lined in orange and one in pink. *eyes bleeding* /Lena ================================================= Margaret Gowen & Co. Ltd. Archaeological Consultants & Project Managers 2 Killiney View Tel: 01-2300433 Albert Road Lower Fax: 01-2300865 Glenageary e-mail: archaeology@mglarc.com Co. Dublin website: http://www.mglarc.com ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is private and confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you are not named above as an addressee it may be unlawful for you to read, copy, distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this email. If you are not the intended recipient of this email please contact our systems administrator. Thank you. NOTE Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its associated companies unless otherwise specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 05:21:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i619LIRM028650 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:21:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619Kid5012184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:20:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619Khth001667; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:20:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619Jpth001302 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:19:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:18:43 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] bathing dress To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEAC@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] bathing dress Thread-Index: AcRezUzAMk9hwZ1ZRsaM6f2u1O+ofwAfpKgQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Fran, > That's because almost all the Ageless Patterns are from _Harper's > Bazar_. Except for occasional undergarments, _Harper's Bazar_ seldom > published men's patterns. In general, Victorian and Edwardian pattern > publications oriented to dressmakers (home or professional) stressed > women's and children's patterns. Publications oriented to > professional tailors (a somewhat different skill) stressed men's patterns. > > Having said that, I can't, offhand, think of an available > pattern for a man's Victorian bathing suit. At some times and places in the 19th > century, a man's bathing costume consisted of his birthday suit. Thanks for the info. I guess I'll just have to try and track down some decent images of non-birthday suit mens bathing outfits and coblle it together from there. They must have ahd some form of bathing suit for men since bathing was done on public beaches and I can't imagine those in England doing so naked. > Volume 2 of our new anthology _Fashions of the Gilded Age_ > contains four patterns for women's bathing suits from the 1877-1882 period. > Our book _Reconstruction Era Fashions_ contains _Harper's Bazar_ > patterns for a woman's bathing cloak and two bathing caps from the 1867-1868 > period (no bathing suits because no patterns for them were published in that > magazine in those years). Thanks. I'll mention it to the girl who's planning to accompany on the Victorian bathing outing. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 05:36:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i619agRM028822 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:36:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619aAd5012679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:36:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619a9th007644; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:36:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619a7th007629 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:36:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:33:41 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] I'm back! To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEAE@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] I'm back! Thread-Index: AcRfTEZcXiZ5xevASRWqG9To+sfqSwAAfqpQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > We've all been sneaky, as I've been back about a week now I suppose;) > > michaela Hey Michaela! Perhaps it's another case of great minds thinking alike (or fools seldom differing....)! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 05:40:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i619e8RM028866 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:40:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619cAd5012771 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:38:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619cAth008384; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:38:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619c8th008370 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:38:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:37:18 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] PLAID To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEAF@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] PLAID Thread-Index: AcRfTEZcXiZ5xevASRWqG9To+sfqSwAAlT0Q content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > For you? A Houp. The more nasty fabric, the better! And you > could do a > hat picking up one of the more obnoxious tints (I'm > envisioning one of > those big, floppy chaperon things that are > hoods-with-liripipes turned > sideways). Yes, yes, yes!!! > More me, I think it's got to be that turquoise/pink > combination, with a > matching solid color, or course, worked into one of those rare > cotehardie/fitted gowns that have the half-plaid/half solid > appearance, > and the plaid's on the bias. heh, heh, heh.... Wonderful! > but it'd be great to wear for certain mornings at camping > events..... I've done outfits just for their impact at convention or event breakfasts too. After weariong my "Custard Tart" outfit to breakfast at a FilkCon, I ended up the subject of a retalliatory filksong.... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 05:43:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i619hKRM028902 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:43:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619frd5012933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:41:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619fpth009838; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:41:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619fnth009824 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:41:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:39:35 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] I'm back! To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEB0@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] I'm back! Thread-Index: AcRfTEZcXiZ5xevASRWqG9To+sfqSwAAuAOA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Oh, Teddy. I'm sooooo glad you're back with us. I've almost been > tempted (bad Kat, you don't have time!) to sign onto one of the lists > you've been on simply because I've missed you. > > Welcome, back! Awww - thanks Kat. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 05:58:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i619wTRM029076 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:58:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619mkd5013511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:48:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619mith013260; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:48:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i619mgth013239 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:48:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:47:06 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Links/18th century robe To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEB1@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Re: Links/18th century robe Thread-Index: AcRfTEZcXiZ5xevASRWqG9To+sfqSwAA5mow content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Are some of you actually seeing a picture? When I go to the link, I get a > description, but no picture. Have had that problem always with Fabric dot > com. Maybe it's browser specific? It's no fun not seeing the stuff. HI Sandy I'm getting the picture when I click on the link (one of the few good things about the new email system they've dumped on us at work is that it works for this sot of thing where the old one was flakey) Unfortunately, I don't ever recall seeing the garemnt on display at the V&A and 18th century is not really my area. It reminds me a bit of a mans 18th century robe I recall seeing in the Bath museum of costume a couple of years ago, but that was just a first-glance impression, ad not likely to be of much help to Lauren. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 06:09:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61A9QRM029195 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:09:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61A7Sd5014726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 04:07:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61A7Qth020715; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 04:07:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61A77th020490 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 04:07:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i61A73C12243.; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:07:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:06:45 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:06:19 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: RE: [h-cost] bathing dress Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Welcome back, Teddy! Teddy wrote: >Thanks for the info. I guess I'll just have to try and track down some >decent images of non-birthday suit mens bathing outfits and coblle it >together from there. They must have ahd some form of bathing suit >for men since bathing was done on public beaches and I can't >imagine those in England doing so naked. Actually, in the diary of Rev. Francis Kilvert (1870s) he records his annoyance at being made to wear drawers to swim at an English seaside resort. Presumably the idea of mixed bathing was only just beginning to be acceptable at this date. Previously women would have been expected to avoid places where men were bathing. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 07:59:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61BxtRM030306 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:59:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61BxPd5029000 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:59:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61BxOth077924; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:59:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61B3fth044089 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:03:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.46.522911c2 (4446) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:03:29 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <46.522911c2.2e154981@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:03:29 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] bathing dress To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-DCC--Metrics: Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; bulk Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=many X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Slightly off-topic, but I have to share this. The American president, John Quincy Adams, regularly went swimming in the Potomac River. He suffered some kind of distress once and had to be rescued. Of course he was in his birthday suit. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 08:01:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61C1HRM030317 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:01:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61C0md5029111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:00:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61C0lth078655; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:00:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61BTWth058925 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 05:29:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.9e.e470da0 (26116) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:29:21 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <9e.e470da0.2e154f91@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:29:21 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] bathing dress To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/1/2004 5:22:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, Teddy@mdx.ac.uk writes: Thanks for the info. I guess I'll just have to try and track down some decent images of non-birthday suit mens bathing outfits and coblle it together from there. Seriously, here is a good reference if you can track it down. Type of Material: Text (Book, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Personal Name: Martin, Richard (Richard Harrison) Main Title: Splash! : a history of swimwear / Richard Martin and Harold Koda. Published/Created: New York : Rizzoli, 1990. Related Names: Koda, Harold. Description: 140 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 38 cm. ISBN: 0847811867 Notes: Includes index. Subjects: Bathing suits--History. LC Classification: GT2077 .M37 1990 Dewey Class No.: 391 20 ______________________________ CALL NUMBER: GT2077 .M37 1990 fol. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 08:19:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61CJxRM030376 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:19:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61CJId5000967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:19:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61CJDth086657; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:19:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web60408.mail.yahoo.com (web60408.mail.yahoo.com [216.109.118.191]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61CJBth086610 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:19:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from christclaridge@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040701121905.7184.qmail@web60408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [212.106.106.4] by web60408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 13:19:05 BST Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:19:05 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Christina=20Claridge?= To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey, Looks like it's a Indian man's robe to me, rather that a western garment. You might also try e-mailing someone at the V&A about construction information; they're usually pretty helpful. Chris ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 08:28:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61CSmRM030410 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:28:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61CQvd5001739 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:26:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61CQtth089904; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:26:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from uni03mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni03mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.166]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61CQrth089861 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:26:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from david_serxner@ncsu.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uni03mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i61CQmWn021178 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uni03mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (uni03mr.unity.ncsu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20890-09 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ncsu.edu (acq-gss4421.lib.ncsu.edu [152.1.24.106]) by uni03mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i61CQl1j021167 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:26:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40E40309.6030009@ncsu.edu> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 08:26:49 -0400 From: David Serxner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Try contacting the V&A textile people directly at textilesandfashion@vam.ac.uk or the India/Southeast Asia people at: india.southeastasia@vam.ac.uk David Lauren Walker wrote: >Hi, >I want to make a version of the robe pictured here: >http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20030411/high/1300-003.jpg >which is described thus: >Object: Robe >Date:18th century >Techniques: Cotton, printed, painted and dyed >Artist/designer: Unknown >Place: Burhanpur, India >Dimensions: Height 105 cm >Museum Number: IM.312-1921 > >I have not seen a robe like this in my limited experience of 18th century >North American and English clothing, and I don't remember seeing it on my >much-too-brief afternoon at the V&A five years ago. > >Unfortunately I just can't see enough in this photo! I can see that the >bodice appears to be pieced; I can see enough to adore the way the diagonal >of the print is used in making the collar; I am envious of the block-printed >ties; I can see where it closes on the right-hand side (obvious on the >bodice, but also apparent in the skirts). What I cannot see is how or where >the bodice is seamed. Is there anyone out there who has seen this garment, >or seen ones like it, who might offer a thought on this issue? > >There are some ways -- the neck line and the way the center front hem hangs >a little shorter than the sides, for insance -- in which it reminds me of >the infamous 18th C Garsault bed gown. That *could* support the idea that >the top half of the sleeves is cut in one with the bodice -- it looks that >way to me, does it to you? -- which would, in turn, suggest side seams at >the natural side, rather than toward the back. But I really can't tell. Also >can't tell if the bodice back would be pleated. > >SO: Does anybody know this garment? Can anyone offer any clues? > >Thanks for any light you can shed! >Lauren > > -- David Serxner NCSU Libraries Acquisitions Dept. Serials and Electronic Resources Campus Box 7111 Raleigh, NC 27695-7111 919-513-3355 office 919-515-7292 fax _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 08:29:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61CTDRM030414 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:29:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61CSdd5001847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:28:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61CSdth090632; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:28:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ens9.eatel.net (ens9.eatel.net [209.124.203.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61CRuth090300 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:27:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mamarose@eatel.net) Received: (qmail 23149 invoked by uid 89); 1 Jul 2004 12:27:50 -0000 Received: from ip-209-124-255-176.dynamic.eatel.net (HELO eatel.net) (209.124.255.176) by 0 with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 12:27:50 -0000 Message-ID: <40E41EEB.5090901@eatel.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:25:47 -0700 From: Margaret User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] I'm back! References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEAE@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >>We've all been sneaky, as I've been back about a week now I suppose;) >> >>michaela >> >> > >Hey Michaela! > >Perhaps it's another case of great minds thinking alike (or fools seldom >differing....)! > >Teddy > It's also a case of some of us lurking for a while until we get to know the group and how it works. Chocolate chip cookie, anyone? Margaret Rose -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 09:07:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61D7ZRM030676 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:07:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61D6qd5004665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:06:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61D6nth008094; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:06:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61D6lth008035 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:06:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VChcbgWHICE7cUKhEzFy2v4fBQU0SUWVX+A== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZF325UX; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:06:10 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:09:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Message-ID: <20040701.080931.-891711.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-10,12-32 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO So share with the rest of the class: why are you researching such a specific yet obscure kind of outfit? Don't worry about shocking us, we are a pretty open-minded bunch. Blessed Be! Karen On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:33:36 -0400 "Susy" writes: > Thanks for the sources. I'm waiting for my copy of "women's work" > to > arrive, and I'll have to get my hands on a copy of "the mummies". > I've read > several references to the embroidery on their tunics, but that may > have been > early iron age. I've read so much lately I'm starting to see stars! > So I'm > taking what I can find. I haven't tried "northern European" in my > searches, > and I feel pretty foolish! Thanks for pointing that out. I've got > a small > list of archaeological texts to check out that may prove helpful. > Just > getting impatient to find them. I wish I could afford to order > whatever > suited my fancy and have at my fingertips! Thank goodness for > libraries!! > > Thanks for your suggestions! > Susy ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 09:40:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61DedRM030907 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:40:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Dcjd5006651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:38:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Dcgth024253; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:38:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Dcbth024090 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:38:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m230.in-tch.com [216.166.191.230]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i61DE7g02847 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:14:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40E414C3.2080103@in-tch.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:42:27 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Links References: <200406301306.i5UD6Mti092612@net.indra.com> <6.0.1.1.2.20040701003730.021ba6c8@pop.radiks.net> In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.2.20040701003730.021ba6c8@pop.radiks.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Probably something to do with your internet access? I can generally see them both at home (netscape) and at work (explorer), but some stinkin' little troll down in hardware has been tweaking out settings or something at work, and now I can't see *any* embedded (?) pictures on the internet. Never mind the evil things it does to my yahoo mail page. <> You're right, though, it isn't any fun to not see the pics! --sue Pierre & Sandy Pettinger wrote: > Are some of you actually seeing a picture? When I go to the link, I get > a description, but no picture. Have had that problem always with Fabric > dot com. Maybe it's browser specific? It's no fun not seeing the stuff. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 10:55:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61Et9RM031564 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:55:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Eicd5011437 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:44:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61EiYth063152; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:44:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61EiXth063132 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:44:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bg2ng-0001zB-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:44:32 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 07:44:33 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01c45f79$ecc065d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <20040701121905.7184.qmail@web60408.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Very cool. It will be interesting to see what they say. I wonder if it isn't something worn by a western person. I seem to recall there are several portraits with them wearing eastern garb. > > Hey, > > Looks like it's a Indian man's robe to me, rather that > a western garment. > > You might also try e-mailing someone at the V&A about > construction information; they're usually pretty > helpful. > > Chris > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 11:18:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61FIJRM031797 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:18:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FH1d5014358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:17:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FGvth085868; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:16:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FGsth085773 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:16:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004070115164901400ocm9pe>; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:16:49 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:15:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001a01c45f79$ecc065d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you all for your advice -- I have written to the V&A, which honestly did not occur to me. Fear of authority figures! It does look a lot like the sort of fancy-dress for portraits that shows up in the 19th century -- early Sargent, stuff like that -- but since it's dated for 18th, my curiousity is piqued. None of the sort of Indian-textile European bathrobe things for men -- aka banyans -- that I've seen are gathered or pleated at the waist. But I have no idea what Indians were wearing then, although I confess so far the limited amount of 18th C Indian art I've seen doesn't show anybody in one of these either. I just LIKE it. But I also think it would be quite the fetching house-robe. Lauren > From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" > > Very cool. It will be interesting to see what they say. I wonder if it > isn't something worn by a western person. I seem to recall there are > several portraits with them wearing eastern garb. > >> >> Hey, >> >> Looks like it's a Indian man's robe to me, rather that >> a western garment. >> >> You might also try e-mailing someone at the V&A about >> construction information; they're usually pretty >> helpful. >> >> Chris >> > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 11:35:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61FZsRM000493 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:35:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FZ6d5016313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:35:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FZ0th099385; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:35:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts7.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.165]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FYvth099282 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:34:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.5.193]) by simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040701153413.DTUZ18206.simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:34:13 -0400 Message-ID: <004001c45f80$d1f407a0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001a01c45f79$ecc065d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:33:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Hey, > > > > Looks like it's a Indian man's robe to me, rather that > > a western garment. > > > > You might also try e-mailing someone at the V&A about > > construction information; they're usually pretty > > helpful. > > > > Chris > > I would agree, just doing a quick search (Turkey is more of my focus than India yet, or I might have had more information) I came up with these: http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Music/dervish_party.jpg (1595) http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Music/dervish_party3large.jpg (17th C) http://www.cannsdownpress.co.uk/jpg/201la.jpg (Mughal India 1600-1605) http://www.samfogg.com/ArtWorkImages/3756.jpg (Prince Daniyal, Mughal c 1590) http://www.ou.edu/class/ahi1113/slides/09-07.jpg (Mughal Dynasty (1526-1756)) http://www.hurstgallery.com/exhibit/past/Mughal/AKS-03_lg.JPG (Mughal Dynasty (1526-1756)) There were a lot more where these came from, check Google Images with 'Mughal India' or 'Mughal art'. India, unlike a lot of the Islamic countries of the same period, had no restrictions on painting images of people. Have fun! :-) Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 11:45:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61FjBRM000740 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:45:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FiFd5017253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:44:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FiBth006714; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:44:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Fi9th006636 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:44:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:42:37 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] bathing dress To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEB7@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] bathing dress Thread-Index: AcRfgT9WptUnoyF5SQeMRW32sgRDAwAAEw0Q content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Welcome back, Teddy! Thanks Kate. > Actually, in the diary of Rev. Francis Kilvert (1870s) he > records his annoyance at being made to wear drawers to swim > at an English seaside resort. Presumably the idea of mixed > bathing was only just beginning to be acceptable at this > date. Previously women would have been expected to avoid > places where men were bathing. OK... Well since, this will definately be "mixed" bathing on a public beach, I'd better go for the non-naked option. 1870's would mean I could use it for the other (rare and occasional) Victorian era events I'm likely to take part in instead of just for this, possibly one-off occasion. Any ideas what these garments the men were made to wear for bathing were like? Thanks Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 11:52:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61Fq2RM000799 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:52:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FpKd5018169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:51:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FpIth012579; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:51:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.97]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FnSth010954 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:49:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gawne@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i61FnPJd006813 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [140.107.73.35] (dhcp073035.fhcrc.org [140.107.73.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin07/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id i61FnPhq022804 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618) In-Reply-To: <200407010914.i619E8tj099088@net.indra.com> References: <200407010914.i619E8tj099088@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <3581E7DE-CB76-11D8-B818-000393021FBE@mac.com> From: Agnes Gawne Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:49:17 -0700 To: h-costume@indra.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.618) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i61FnSth010954 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Lauren, I remember seeing that gown when I was at the V&A in February of 2002. There was a room on the way down the corridor to the Costume Gallery that had art, garments and other textiles from the Indian Subcontinent and that garment was in there, along with some wonderful shawls, a few white garments, and if I remember correctly a Regency era gown made from a sari. Unfortunately I was focused on another period at the time and didn't take notes or anything at that time but I somehow remember being impressed that the gown you are wanting was made for a man. however, I could be confused because the show "men in skirts" was going up that day as well. Have you tried corresponding with the V&A about the gown? > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 01:33:12 -0400 > From: Lauren Walker > Subject To: h-costume > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > Hi, > I want to make a version of the robe pictured here: > http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20030411/high/1300-003.jpg > which is described thus: > Object: Robe > Date:18th century > Techniques: Cotton, printed, painted and dyed > Artist/designer: Unknown > Place: Burhanpur, India > Dimensions: Height 105 cm > Museum Number: IM.312-1921 > > I have not seen a robe like this in my limited experience of 18th > century > North American and English clothing, and I don't remember seeing it on > my > much-too-brief afternoon at the V&A five years ago. > > Unfortunately I just can't see enough in this photo! I can see that the > bodice appears to be pieced; I can see enough to adore the way the > diagonal > of the print is used in making the collar; I am envious of the > block-printed > ties; I can see where it closes on the right-hand side (obvious on the > bodice, but also apparent in the skirts). What I cannot see is how or > where > the bodice is seamed. Is there anyone out there who has seen this > garment, > or seen ones like it, who might offer a thought on this issue? > > There are some ways -- the neck line and the way the center front hem > hangs > a little shorter than the sides, for insance -- in which it reminds me > of > the infamous 18th C Garsault bed gown. That *could* support the idea > that > the top half of the sleeves is cut in one with the bodice -- it looks > that > way to me, does it to you? -- which would, in turn, suggest side seams > at > the natural side, rather than toward the back. But I really can't > tell. Also > can't tell if the bodice back would be pleated. > > SO: Does anybody know this garment? Can anyone offer any clues? > > Thanks for any light you can shed! > Lauren > -- > Lauren M. Walker > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 11:53:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61FrBRM000815 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:53:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FqJd5018298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:52:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FqHth013322; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:52:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FnZth010982 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:49:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004070115492801300biutve>; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:49:28 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:48:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004001c45f80$d1f407a0$cb6afea9@sherry> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wow! This one could really be the very same garment! > > http://www.hurstgallery.com/exhibit/past/Mughal/AKS-03_lg.JPG (Mughal > Dynasty (1526-1756)) > Thanks a million! Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 11:53:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61FrZRM000822 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:53:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Fr0d5018356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:53:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Fr0th013934; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:53:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FoVth011875 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:50:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:48:24 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robe from V&A To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEB9@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Robe from V&A Thread-Index: AcRfgT9WptUnoyF5SQeMRW32sgRDAwAAWUpw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Looks like it's a Indian man's robe to me, rather that > a western garment. I remember something similar about the mans one in the Bath costume museum.... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 12:00:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61G0WRM000925 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:00:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FxFd5019160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:59:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61FxDth018792; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:59:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Fw6th017904 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:58:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bg3ws-0001RL-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 08:58:06 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:58:07 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c45f84$3383bd50$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Anyone live near Warwick Castle or plan on visiting soon? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Just checking in again.there is a portrait there I would like to get a picture of. (its not available in a book or postcard.already checked) Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 12:03:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61G3nRM000956 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:03:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61G2rd5019517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:02:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61G2pth021623; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:02:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61G2jth021481 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:02:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004070116023801500790cae>; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:02:38 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:01:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3581E7DE-CB76-11D8-B818-000393021FBE@mac.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cool! IF it is a man's garment, does that tell us anything about how the top part (do we call the top part of a man's gown a "bodice"?) is put together? Thanks again, Lauren > From: Agnes Gawne > Lauren, > > I remember seeing that gown when I was at the V&A in February of 2002. > There was a room on the way down the corridor to the Costume Gallery > that had art, garments and other textiles from the Indian Subcontinent > and that garment was in there, along with some wonderful shawls, a > few white garments, and if I remember correctly a Regency era gown > made from a sari. Unfortunately I was focused on another period > at the time and didn't take notes or anything at that time but I > somehow remember being impressed that the gown you are wanting was made > for a man. however, I could be confused because the show "men in > skirts" was going up that day as well. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 12:06:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61G6HRM000972 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:06:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61G5hd5019867 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:05:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61G5fth023797; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:05:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu (kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu [169.147.4.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61G3pth022352 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:03:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ckinsey@kumc.edu) Received: from KUMC-SMTPOUT-DOMAIN-MTA by kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:03:21 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Beta Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:02:13 -0500 From: "Catherine Kinsey" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] He's Back! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >A *BIG* houpellande with one sleeve lined in orange and one in pink. Oh yeah, Teddy's back :). So maybe you and Nicole can just trade around some pieces :)???? Catherine who is having surgery on her foot next week and is supposed to be off of it for a month. Sounds like a good time to go on a diet!!!! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 12:31:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61GVfRM001170 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:31:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61GTjd5022399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:29:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61GTNth042853; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:29:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61GTIth042796 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:29:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bg4R2-0004YH-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:29:16 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:29:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c45f88$8e5395d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have found a balsa hatblock for 50$. Most other places are between 80 and 150. Anyone know why? Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 12:40:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61GebRM001249 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:40:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Flnd5017693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:47:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Flkth009647; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:47:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Flhth009625 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:47:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:46:34 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] bathing dress To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEB8@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] bathing dress Thread-Index: AcRfgT9WptUnoyF5SQeMRW32sgRDAwAARrSg content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Seriously, here is a good reference if you can track it down. > Main Title: Splash! : a history of swimwear / Richard > Martin and Harold Koda. Ann! You are wonderful! We happen to have a copy in stock here at work (in one of our site libraries) and 've just requested it be sent to me. Thanks!!! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 12:50:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61GoCRM001330 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:50:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61GjGd5023988 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:45:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61GjBth055739; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:45:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41506.mail.yahoo.com (web41506.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.89]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61Gj7th055624 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:45:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040701164501.73272.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.66.208.11] by web41506.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:45:01 BST Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:45:01 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Marquesate?= Subject: Re: [h-cost] He's Back! To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --- Catherine Kinsey wrote: > So maybe you and Nicole can just trade around some pieces :)???? > *chuckle* Nooo...... I would never ever give Bjarne's 1660s blue silk dress away! I'll just pad the bodice. In fact it was always a tad too tight so it should be very comfy now. (as you can guess, I haven't dared try it on yet ;-) Ohy hang on, I did make a fun quick costume, but fantasy, for St george's day: http://www.kipar.org/temp/princess.jpg http://www.kipar.org/temp/knight-damsel.jpg Nicole ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 12:54:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61GsORM001371 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:54:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61GqUd5024950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:52:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61GqQth061535; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:52:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61GqJth061401 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:52:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp03.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.123]) by smtpout02.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABAQJSKYABH2SYS for (sender ); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1983 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 16:51:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.41.162) by smtp03.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 16:51:28 -0000 Message-ID: <008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:49:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 12:6:155857552 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55of+eisksBWylfbJS40X8ANBqyNOwQ/CJ1K X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There seemed to be some delay in my original post, as it just showed up here. But it was all included, and I am delighted by your response. As for Karen, I'll be happy to share with the class. I am becoming involved with a living history group recreating, as best we can, late bronze/early iron age celtic culture. Unfortunately, I live several hours from the main group and have had difficulty contacting them by email. Besides, this is just my thing for entertainment. I'm sure you understand, though my husband thinks I'm whacko. The search is part of the fun, as well as trying to recreate things as well as I can. I have found a number of sources referred to on the web, which I am trying to acquire through the state library and interlibrary loan. Oh, if only I had the funds to purchase all these wonderful "little" archaeological texts for my own! Anywho, although I love the idea of a funeral pyre as a grand send off, it hasn't left much evidence behind for the rest of us. Perhaps that has something to do with choosing to recreate late bronze/early iron age. To the best of my understanding that would be the Hallstatt culture. I have seen images and info on the Danish finds including the tube dress as well as a string skirt. But I didn't want to make a leap, just because of time period. I have also found a number of things referring to Viking dress construction as well as stitches, embroidery, etc. If you have reference suggestions for the Hallstatt or La Tene culture I would be delighted. Looking back I seem to be getting some conflicting info on the exact time frame we are to be recreating. Unfortunately some things say late bronze and some refer to shortly before the Roman conquest of northern Europe. Now I must get some more details from the organizers of the group because that is a huge time span. But perhaps that is of little significance to dress. Thanks for your time and sharing your knowledge! Susy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather Rose Jones" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:51 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts > I haven't seen the original posting of this, but > it looks like the whole original is included so I > won't worry about it. > > At 11:19 PM -0500 6/30/04, seamstrix@juno.com wrote: > >On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:55:48 -0400 "Susy" > >writes: > >> Hi, I'm new to this list and trying to figure out how to navigate > >> through the archives. Wow, what a challenge after a long day! > >> > >> Anyway, I'm looking for suggestions, ideas, or tips for creating > >> acurate bronze age celtic women's clothing. > > > Do you have a particular archaeologico-cultural > context in mind as a target? I ask partly > because I want to make sure we're working within > the same definitions of "Bronze Age" and > "Celtic". The earliest culture that's pretty > uniformly agreed-upon as "definitely Celtic" is > Hallstadt, but it's firmly early Iron Age rather > than Bronze Age. While the actual local > technology is the final arbiter, in Europe you > generally finding the Bronze Age label fading out > around 1000 BCE and the Iron Age taking over at > that point. The Hallstadt label tends to apply > from ca. 700-450 BCE and the grave goods > associated with that culture are solidly Iron > Age. There's a general sense that there are > cultural connections between Hallstadt culture > and the Bronze Age Urnfield culture ... but > there's much less agreement that the Urnfield > culture should be labelled "Celtic" in any > meaningful sense of the term. Certainly if > you're thinking of the cultures associated with > prototypical "Celtic art", you're thinking of > Iron Age cultures: Hallstadt or the later La Tene. > > If you're looking to work from Urnfield culture, > then there's next to nothing to work from for > textiles, as one feature of the culture was > cremation burials. On the other hand, there > _are_ Bronze Age cultures for which we have > excellent and extensive clothing evidence. The > most familiar are the Danish Bronze Age burials > (with excellent textile preservation due to damp > and acidic conditions). But it often gets > forgotten that much of the early surviving > Egyptian material is also technically Bronze Age > (e.g., Tutankhamen). Since Egyptologists tend to > date material much more precisely by dynasties > that only apply locally, it tends to be easy to > lose track of how that material corresponds to > the European survivals. (Tutankhamen is, for all > practical purposes, a contemporary of the Danish > burials at Egtved, Trindhoj and Borum Eshoj.) > I've got an annotated bibliography on the Danish > Bronze Age material that I've posted previously > that you might find useful depending on what > angle you're working on. (But the extent of > Urnfield culture doesn't overlap with the Danish > material, so it would be hard to make even a > tenuous connection between the Danish material > and "Celts".) > > If you're aiming, instead, at more of a Hallstadt > target, the evidence is less delightfully > complete than the earlier Danish material, but > there's still something to work from. The two > types of survivals come from grave goods > (generally fairly fragmentary and of uncertain > purpose) and items misplaced in the salt mines > (generally preserved relatively whole and in good > condition due to the salt). An extensive > discussion of some of the first group can be > found in: > > Banck-Burgess, Johanna. 1999. Hochdorf IV: Die > Textilfunde aus dem späthallstattzeitlichen > Fürstengrab von Eberdingen-Hochdorf (Kreis > Ludwigsburg) und weitere Grabtextilien aus > Hallstatt- und latčnezeitlichen Kulturgruppen. > Konrad Theiss Verlag, Stuttgart. ISBN > 3-8062-1453-0 > > I don't know of a good single source for the salt > mine finds, but I've run into individual > descriptive articles on some of them. I hesitate > to start dumping extensive lists of publications > yet, until I have a more certain idea of which > items are going to come closest to your > interests. Much of the published material is on > relatively small fragments that shed light on > textile technology but don't provide much > information on clothing structures. > > Moving more into the La Tene era for the Celts > (i.e., roughly 5th c. BCE to 1st c. CE) we again > hit the question of "who gets to be a Celt". > There's a delightful amount of surviving Iron Age > clothing from what is now northern Germany (see > e.g. Karl Schlabow's exhaustive "Textilfunde der > Eisenzeit"), although largely from the first few > centuries CE rather than what would correspond to > the earlier part of La Tene culture. But whether > this material could reasonably be called "Celtic" > is open for enthusiastic debate. > > > > What I have found so > >> far is vague or general. I'm wondering what type of stitches would > > > be appropriate, how the seams and hems should lay, > > > The micro-structure -- weave types and seam types > -- is better evidenced than the macro-structure > (clothing cuts/designs). > > > > what designs > >> might be embroidered onto their garments. Any info would be > >> helpful. I see many of you work in the later periods, but I've got > >> my fingers crossed that someone out there has some suggestions. So > >> far the only thing I can nail down is the peplum or chiton style > > > dress out of wool or linen, of course. Thanks for your thoughts! > > Your mention of the peplum/chiton style suggests > that the image you have in mind is inspired by > Iron Age styles rather than Bronze Age styles. > Evidence for this style of garment comes largely > from the placement of brooches/fasteners relative > to skeletons in graves. There is one surviving > tubular garment that most likely represents this > style, however it is generally dated to the 1st > c. CE and comes once again from Denmark. > > I'd be delighted to provide some lists of useful > publications once I have a better idea of the > target. > > Heather > -- > **** > Heather Rose Jones > heather.jones@earthlink.net > **** > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 13:26:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61HQcRM001740 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:26:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61HNhd5027608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:23:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61HNVth085578; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:23:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61HNQth085447 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:23:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1179076 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:23:20 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:23:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000101c45f88$8e5395d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Maybe it's not a really usable shape for most people so not desirable so not expensive. Maybe because it's balsa an not as sturdy as a harder wood. Maybe there's a crack in it you can't see. But MAYBE the person doesn't know what s/he has and you're getting a really good deal! Best of luck! LynnD On 7/1/04 9:29 AM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote: > I have found a balsa hatblock for 50$. Most other places are between 80 and > 150. Anyone know why? > > > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 13:43:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61HhkRM001898 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:43:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Heod5029433 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:40:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Helth098844; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:40:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from whowhere.com (in02-fes1.whowhere.com [209.202.220.218]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61Hejth098746 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:40:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@eudoramail.com) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by whowhere.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:40:22 -0000 To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:40:22 0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Priority: 3 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A X-Sender-Ip: 130.88.96.65 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO IIRC, it is a men's Indian garment. It is in the Indian gallery at the moment or one like it I believe... So, I don't think you can extrapolate the construction from European women's garments. Sorry. Cheers, Danielle --------- Original Message --------- >Hi, >I want to make a version of the robe pictured here: >http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20030411/high/1300-003.jpg >which is described thus: >Object: Robe >Date:18th century >Techniques: Cotton, printed, painted and dyed >Artist/designer: Unknown >Place: Burhanpur, India >Dimensions: Height 105 cm >Museum Number: IM.312-1921 > >I have not seen a robe like this in my limited experience of 18th century >North American and English clothing, and I don't remember seeing it on my >much-too-brief afternoon at the V&A five years ago. > >Unfortunately I just can't see enough in this photo! I can see that the >bodice appears to be pieced; I can see enough to adore the way the diagonal >of the print is used in making the collar; I am envious of the block-printed >ties; I can see where it closes on the right-hand side (obvious on the >bodice, but also apparent in the skirts). What I cannot see is how or where >the bodice is seamed. Is there anyone out there who has seen this garment, >or seen ones like it, who might offer a thought on this issue? > >There are some ways -- the neck line and the way the center front hem hangs >a little shorter than the sides, for insance -- in which it reminds me of >the infamous 18th C Garsault bed gown. That *could* support the idea that >the top half of the sleeves is cut in one with the bodice -- it looks that >way to me, does it to you? -- which would, in turn, suggest side seams at >the natural side, rather than toward the back. But I really can't tell. Also >can't tell if the bodice back would be pleated. > >SO: Does anybody know this garment? Can anyone offer any clues? > >Thanks for any light you can shed! >Lauren >-- >Lauren M. Walker Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 13:54:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61HsARM001982 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:54:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Hi7d5029780 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:44:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Hi6th001570; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:44:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Hhith001256 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:43:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bg5b5-0001Vr-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:43:43 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 10:43:45 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c45f92$f50fbdd0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i61Hhith001256 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is a balsa wood block being sold as brand new (Lacis in San Fran). Others, just like it are also in the price range. I am thinking it is a good deal, but I thought I would just check! Thanks > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On > Behalf Of Lynn Downward > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 10:23 AM > To: h costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks > > Maybe it's not a really usable shape for most people so not desirable so not > expensive. Maybe because it's balsa an not as sturdy as a harder wood. Maybe > there's a crack in it you can't see. But MAYBE the person doesn't know what > s/he has and you're getting a really good deal! Best of luck! > > LynnD > > > On 7/1/04 9:29 AM, "Saragrace T. Knauf" wrote: > > > I have found a balsa hatblock for 50$. Most other places are between 80 and > > 150. Anyone know why? > > > > > > > > Sg > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 14:02:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61I22RM002055 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:02:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61HwPd5001343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:58:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61HwMth012765; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:58:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net (starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.227]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61HwIth012725 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 11:58:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.3.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.3] helo=HELENPINTO) by starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bg5pA-0007Sb-2z for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:58:17 -0700 Message-ID: <009d01c45f94$f997a500$03399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEAC@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost] bathing dress Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:58:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef83b7a4f92622acf7e23c633cd1cf144c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.3 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The picture below includes two men: http://www.capitolamuseum.org/SwimwearArticle.html Hope it's useful, -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 15:23:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61JNLRM002629 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:23:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61JKsd5008930 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:20:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61JKhth075317; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:20:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61JKfth075283 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:20:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CE52BF0E for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:20:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p176.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.178]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D4D3C424 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:20:40 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] PLAID Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:20:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEAA@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- > Well Teddy said he isn't going to buy some, but I love it Houpellande A *BIG* houpellande with one sleeve lined in orange and one in pink. Teddy ***** Mustn't forget the contrasting bell sash. Purple or Electric blue perhaps? Not only will they see you coming a mile away in the dark but hear you too. :) Perhaps a waffenrock or puff and slash would lend more towards a greater variety of accessories and color to brighten such a toned down fabric. :O ) De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 15:54:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61JsVRM002976 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:54:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Jrld5012468 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:53:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Jrith000876; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:53:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51306.mail.yahoo.com (web51306.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61Jrfth000781 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 13:53:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040701194642.32710.qmail@web51306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.172.50] by web51306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:46:42 PDT Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:46:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli Subject: RE: [h-cost] bathing dress To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEB7@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO An American source is a Harper's Bazaar picture of the mid-1860's showing mixed bathing. The ladies were in short-sleeved or long-sleeved outfits. The gentlemen wore either tank-tops or nothing. Anything much below the armpits was well hidden by the water, so what else was worn is a mystery. I looked into this for the 'bathing suit' competition at Costume-Con 18--one lady in a short-sleeved top with knee-length skirts and breeches; a second lady in long sleeves and long pants with a knee-length skirt; and a gentleman fig-leafed by a towel. we won. : ) Ann in CT __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 16:14:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61KEcRM003114 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:14:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61KDsd5014465 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:13:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61KDeth016517; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:13:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m16.mx.aol.com (imo-m16.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.206]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61KDLth016262 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:13:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.12f.455838aa (18403) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:13:09 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <12f.455838aa.2e15ca55@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:13:09 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Could certainly have been worn by a Westerner, though--brought home as a souvenir, maybe? But most likely by a man, not a woman. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 16:58:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61KwuRM003316 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:58:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Kv0d5018561 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:57:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Kuuth049780; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:56:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from secure4.netll.com (secure4.netll.com [208.38.152.40]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Kuqti049713 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:56:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lithiate@secure4.netll.com) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Bg8c5-0006qJ-M0 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:56:57 -0400 From: "Sarah Lorraine" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.26 X-IPAddress: 156.41.170.32 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:56:57 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My suspicion is that it's an 18th c. Indian man's robe and probably not something worn in the West. When I was at the V&A a year and a half ago, they had a wonderful exhibit on 18th c. Indian textiles, and even though I can't remember specifically if this robe was on display at the time, I did photograph two 18th c. western garments made from Indian print cotton, if you're interested in them. Photos can be found at the bottom of this page: http://www.modehistorique.com/extantclothes.html :) Sarah http://www.modehistorique.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 17:03:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61L3URM003332 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:03:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61L1Zd5019089 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:01:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61L1Yth053677; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:01:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61L1Rth053569 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:01:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-206-244.cvip.net [129.8.206.244]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8F05235 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040701135955.02579788@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:01:30 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: RE: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks In-Reply-To: <000b01c45f92$f50fbdd0$6a01a8c0@SG01> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:43 AM 7/1/2004 -0700, you wrote: >This is a balsa wood block being sold as brand new (Lacis in San Fran). >Others, just like it are also in the price range. I am thinking it is a >good deal, but I thought I would just check! > >Thanks I saw that particular hat block in Lacis when I was there a month ago. Very lightweight wood, and most of the hat blocks I have been watching on eBay are hardwoods, but usually vintage and used. It will all depend on what you are using it for. I was told the one at Lacis is good for a beginning student, but wouldn't hold up to any heavy usage. hth, Kimiko Kimiko Small Owner ~ DreamTime Studios http://www.dreamtime-studios.com Fresno, CA, USA "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 17:14:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61LDxRM003368 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:14:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61LC8d5020096 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:12:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61LC6th061891; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:12:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound20-2.nyc.untd.com (outbound20-2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.20.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61LBeth061517 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:11:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail06.nyc.untd.com [10.140.30.146]) by smtpout03.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABAQJ9QPAJ8RKSS for (sender ); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:10:37 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCmoYZcMsEajYxREd2I1YVM1FORk6T4LGgg== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by webmail06.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZGXQFRD; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:09:39 PDT Received: from [4.158.81.209] by webmail06.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:09:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [4.158.81.209] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "seamstrix@juno.com" Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:09:36 GMT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20040701.140939.18652.172733@webmail06.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:3:3281956407 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Holy cow! Who is recreating Late Bronze/Early Iron Age? The earliest groups I've heard of are doing Greco-Roman or straight Roman Legions of various eras. I've never run into a group doing anything that early before. Where are you located (you don't have to give me the GPS coordinates, just a general state will do. ;-) )? Karen -- "Susy" wrote: I am becoming involved with a living history group recreating, as best we can, late bronze/early iron age celtic culture. Unfortunately, I live several hours from the main group and have had difficulty contacting them by email. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 17:16:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61LGQRM003381 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:16:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61LFtd5020445 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:15:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61LFpth065078; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:15:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net (cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61LDDth062919 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:13:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bg8ro-0001ts-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:13:12 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:13:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c45fb0$38e3ea00$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040701135955.02579788@64.87.54.245> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > It will all depend on what you are using it for. I was told the one at > Lacis is good for a beginning student, but wouldn't hold up to any heavy usage. [Sg] I called several millenary suppliers and was told that the balsa was a typical block used so that you could put pins in it. They are not to be used with steam and pressure. The hardwood ones are for blocking straw and felt with steam. I am also looking into dolly blocks (linen) blocks. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 17:54:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61LsWRM003814 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:54:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Lqdd5024235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:52:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61LqZth093475; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:52:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61LqWth093359 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:52:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OjNvPS3qwz57MGELPSdX5nM= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZGZ4Z6D; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:51:29 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:32:23 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] PLAID Message-ID: <20040701.145115.1548.0.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-31 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Maybe you could have dagging on the sleeves in some profoundly annoying shade of chartreuse. Arlys, who thinks this could be a lethal weapon ;) On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:20:57 -0500 "otsisto" writes: > -----Original Message----- > > > Well Teddy said he isn't going to buy some, but I love it > Houpellande > > A *BIG* houpellande with one sleeve lined in orange and one in pink. > > Teddy > > ***** > Mustn't forget the contrasting bell sash. Purple or Electric blue > perhaps? > Not only will they see you coming a mile away in the dark but hear > you too. > :) Perhaps a waffenrock or puff and slash would lend more towards a > greater > variety of accessories and color to brighten such a toned down > fabric. :O ) > > De > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 18:08:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61M8qRM003991 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:08:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61M8Dd5025676 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:08:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61M8Ath005825; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:08:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61M87th005746 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:08:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp02.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.122]) by smtpout04.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABAQKC3MAYJ6SAA for (sender ); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16287 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 22:06:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.40.103) by smtp02.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 22:06:54 -0000 Message-ID: <002c01c45fb7$b7c85570$6728bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040701.140939.18652.172733@webmail06.nyc.untd.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:06:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 14:7:832471760 X-MAIL-INFO: 41db4a1ac397fedb5bc38eb7f3cac74a02b71ec70e5f5bc79e8e4f272e27aeb31b6ed727fe8ffe0fe77f771b6fe7bfd7131b8fbfaa0e0abf1f3e23fbdefb4b3f372e5afbcf5ecfa787ef93377e87f75aea375ef7caae8eee8e6eeb7a6eebb3e7ebb3e7ca9763cb73db936793c31e0b6a17935fd73e432e43fbba83fbba875aba87 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55of+eisksBWylexhOgOjfTMpiqfVu0PKm1A X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm glad you're not demanding GPS coordinates, I'm afraid I'm sorely lacking in those skills! I live in PA and the group is in VA. There are actually a number of groups in the UK, but only a few in the US. We do interact with SCA at Pennsic, because Celts do need someone to fight with! Alas, there is no one nearby doing the same thing. So, I'm off to VA to join Clanne Preachain. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts > > Holy cow! Who is recreating Late Bronze/Early Iron Age? The earliest groups I've heard of are doing Greco-Roman or straight Roman Legions of various eras. I've never run into a group doing anything that early before. Where are you located (you don't have to give me the GPS coordinates, just a general state will do. ;-) )? > > > Karen > > -- "Susy" wrote: > I am becoming involved with a living history group recreating, as best we can, late bronze/early iron age celtic culture. Unfortunately, I live several hours from the main group and have had difficulty contacting them by email. > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 18:37:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61Mb0RM004124 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:37:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61MYvd5028033 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:34:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61MYXth024706; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:34:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i61MXWth024074 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:33:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from athurman@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c11so40631rnb for ; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.79.11 with SMTP id c11mr6819rnb; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d21ac1904070115261d74ed2d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 18:26:37 -0400 From: "A. Thurman" To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407010914.i619E8tj099088@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <200407010914.i619E8tj099088@net.indra.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: plaid! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:10:19 +0100 > From: Teddy > Subject: RE: [h-cost] PLAID > To: h-costume@indra.com > Message-ID: > <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEAA@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Well Teddy said he isn't going to buy some, but I love it > > too. So what do you all think, Kilt, Houp or an Elizabethan > > with Purple trim? > > Houpellande > > A *BIG* houpellande with one sleeve lined in orange and one in pink. > > Teddy > AGGH!!! I think my brain just broke! Welcome back! Allison (my mind's eye is blinded!) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 19:56:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i61NueRM004488 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:56:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Nu1d5005863 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:56:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Ntqth076037; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:55:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i61Ntnti076006 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:55:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i61Ns5OJ028913 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:54:05 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40E4A483.6010101@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:55:47 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur (digression) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sarah Lorraine wrote: > My suspicion is that it's an 18th c. Indian man's robe and probably not > something worn in the West. This is earlier, and I don't know if it's really Indian that he's describing: Monday 1 July 1661 http://www.pepysdiary.com/archive/1661/07/01/index.php This morning I went up and down into the city, to buy several things, as I have lately done, for my house. Among other things, a fair chest of drawers for my own chamber, and an Indian gown for myself. The first cost me 33s., the other 34s. Home and dined there, and Theodore Goodgroome, my singing master, with me, and then to our singing. After that to the office, and then home. (This is on a feed that you can get into your LJ Friends page.) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent A non-smoking section in a restaurant is like a non-peeing section in a pool. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 21:27:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i621RERM004684 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:27:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i621Qfd5015884 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:26:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i621Qcth027199; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:26:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i621QZth027160 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:26:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i621uc5c056829 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:56:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i621ubu2056826 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:56:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407020156.i621ubu2056826@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur (digression) In-Reply-To: <40E4A483.6010101@thibault.org> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO OT alert!!!! > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > > A non-smoking section in a restaurant is like a non-peeing section in a > pool. Preach it, sister! Jerusha, the newbie to the list _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 21:39:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i621dGRM004719 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:39:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i621ced5017683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:38:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i621ccth034155; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:38:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i621cZti034120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:38:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i621apOJ029752 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:36:51 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40E4BC9A.5070905@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:38:34 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <200407020156.i621ubu2056826@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407020156.i621ubu2056826@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] off topic X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Susan Farmer wrote: > OT alert!!!! .sig files generally don't set off the off-topic alarm, because they're not really part of the post. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 22:20:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i622KVRM004853 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:20:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i622Jmd5022318 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:19:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i622Jjth056598; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:19:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav13.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i622Jhth056521 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:19:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 19:11:00 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.75 by bay1-dav13.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 02:11:00 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.75] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407020156.i621ubu2056826@sabre.goldsword.com> <40E4BC9A.5070905@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] off topic Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:10:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jul 2004 02:11:00.0717 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1E479D0:01C45FD9] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes *eg* Bice has no hand in the running here. Trimming is also at your own consciences. *evil laughter from piles of polyester bombs aimed at Jerusha* eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- > Susan Farmer wrote: > > > OT alert!!!! > > .sig files generally don't set off the off-topic alarm, because they're > not really part of the post. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 23:53:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i623rgRM005136 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:53:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i623phd5028651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:51:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i623path009115; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:51:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i623pYth009073 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:51:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20040702035129012004cm2pe>; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:51:29 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:50:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear Danielle, Sarah, and all, Oh, thank you -- no need to console me -- I didn't want it for any, ahem, authentic purpose -- I just LIKE it, and if I don't have to horse around with European women's garment construction to approximate it, all the better for me. I still wish I could see better where the seams were, but I think I'll just play with it and see where they want to be, given the nature of the sleeves and the front closing. I am, however, delighted to have some guidance on what it actually IS; I don't mind at all that it is probably a man's garment. Here in the 21st C the transvestism will go utterly unnoticed, I am sure. Sarah -- I love the photos of the other printed dresses, especially that last women's coat at the bottom. Thank you so much for providing the link and sharing your pictures. I am in love with the use of the border print on the last coat, and also the degree to which the print resembles a Jamevar shawl. I might have to buy one of those Jamevar wool bedspreads and make that coat for a winter bathrobe! Thanks again, Lauren > From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" > > IIRC, it is a men's Indian garment. It is in the Indian gallery at the moment > or one like it I believe... So, I don't think you can extrapolate the > construction from European women's garments. Sorry. > > Cheers, > Danielle > > I did photograph two 18th c. western garments made from Indian > print cotton, if you're interested in them. Photos can be found at the > bottom of this page: > > http://www.modehistorique.com/extantclothes.html > > :) > > Sarah > http://www.modehistorique.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 1 23:58:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i623wsRM005153 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:58:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i623vtd5029110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:57:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i623vsth012163; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:57:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net (invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.254]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i623vqth012129 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 21:57:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.21.180.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.21.180] helo=HELENPINTO) by invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BgFBO-0001J6-7x for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:57:51 -0700 Message-ID: <00f301c45fe8$bc95ecd0$b4159b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200406301306.i5UD6Mti092612@net.indra.com> <6.0.1.1.2.20040701003730.021ba6c8@pop.radiks.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Links Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:57:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9effd2599763eba3f498f917d182312c3a9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.21.180 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sandy wrote: Are some of you actually seeing a picture? When I go to the link, I get a description, but no picture. Have had that problem always with Fabric dot com. Maybe it's browser specific? It's no fun not seeing the stuff. I had the same problem (and also had it once last winter), but as far as I can tell, it only applies to items recently added. Old fabric and trims have the details and enlargements. I e-mailed them at fabric.com and got this reply: Unfortunately, there is a glitch which occurs every so often and causes this issue. It seems to be an issue with Yahoo. We have identified the main culprit and it seems to be a Norton Anti-Virus Software package. We have also identify a temporary fix to this problem. You could try changing browsers eg. Internet Explorer and Netscape. You could also try turning your Anti-Virus Software off. If you turn off the software, please remember to turn it back on. I assure you have been working close with Yahoo, to resolve this issue. If you have any additional questions please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you, for shopping at Fabric.com. Hal Genter Fabric.com I have no intention of turning off Norton or my firewall (I run both IE and Netscape), so I will do without until it's fixed. -Helen/Aidan > Sandy > > >Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:24:40 -0700 > >From: "Stephen Bergdahl" > >Subject: [h-cost] PLAID > > > >Look Fabric Dot Com has the Tartan of Teddy's Clan! > > > >http://store.yahoo.com/phoenixtextiles/aa-765.html > > > >Stephen > > "Those Who Fail To Learn History > Are Doomed to Repeat It; > Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- > Why They Are Simply Doomed. > > Achemdro'hm > "The Illusion of Historical Fact" > -- C.Y. 4971 > > Andromeda > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 00:01:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62413RM005161 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:01:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6240Fd5029284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:00:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6240Eth013527; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:00:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62408th013421 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:00:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004070204000201100j5dude>; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 04:00:02 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:59:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO PS: How did you get your photos to come out so well? Most of my V&A pictures are just darkness. Lauren -- > From: "Sarah Lorraine" > Photos can be found at the > bottom of this page: > > http://www.modehistorique.com/extantclothes.html > > :) > > Sarah > http://www.modehistorique.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 00:20:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i624K9RM005204 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:20:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i624Jbd5000687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:19:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i624JZth023974; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:19:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i624JYth023954 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:19:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F1C62BBE3 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:19:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p282.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.215.28]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 504A8C5EB for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:19:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:19:49 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] off topic, "snipping" & plaid X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Polyester bombs..hmmm...could be worse, could be that plaid wool that makes men weep, women faint and children scream. Showed that plaid to my shire and half of them went blind, what was I thinking! Hmmm maybe theres something here..now how can we get spammers to look at this plaid? :) -----Original Message----- Yes *eg* Bice has no hand in the running here. Trimming is also at your own consciences. *evil laughter from piles of polyester bombs aimed at Jerusha* _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 00:33:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i624XuRM005236 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:33:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i624XKd5001471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:33:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i624XJth030999; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:33:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts5.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.163]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i624XHth030947 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:33:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.5.193]) by simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040702043239.ZWSD3387.simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:32:39 -0400 Message-ID: <003b01c45fed$7f849620$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:31:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lauren Walker" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 11:50 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A > Dear Danielle, Sarah, and all, > > Oh, thank you -- no need to console me -- I didn't want it for any, ahem, > authentic purpose -- I just LIKE it, and if I don't have to horse around > with European women's garment construction to approximate it, all the better > for me. I still wish I could see better where the seams were, but I think > I'll just play with it and see where they want to be, given the nature of > the sleeves and the front closing. I am, however, delighted to have some > guidance on what it actually IS; I don't mind at all that it is probably a > man's garment. Here in the 21st C the transvestism will go utterly > unnoticed, I am sure. The easiest way for you to go here would be to use the garment construction techniques of the cultures near India at the time. Rectangular construction, once you figure out the measurements, is wonderfully simple and quick. With a bit of practice you can get a very well fitting garment without a dart to be seen, and probably no more than two slightly curved seams to accent your girlish figure. :-) An example of an overlapping Persian/Mongol coat pattern: http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/kaftan2.html (Check out the links on the top of this page for an extant garment (13th-14th C) and a reconstruction) Your coat could be made using this pattern, but adding a gored skirt instead of the entire length of the coat being in one piece. For narrow sleeves use a diamond shaped armpit gusset; for my Turkish coats I tend to use a piece no bigger than 5" (per side) and sew it in with the long points of the diamond at the side seam and underarm seam. Fitted to your arm properly you should be able to reach over your head without the fabric of your coat pulling to any large degree. This is, of course, just my opinion. :-) I do find that when people tackle an Eastern garment for the first time (myself included) they tend to over-engineer it using Western tayloring/sewing techniques. I now find it soooo much easier to use rectangular construction, and there is the added bonus of minimal fabric wastage. :-) You might want to check out a little book produced by the Royal Ontario Musem called 'Cut My Cote' which shows a variety of garments from a range of countries and time periods all made using rectangular construction. Its a very handy little thing, and darned cheap to buy. If you never have tried rectangular construction before, it shows plenty of examples. :-) Once again, I hope this helps. :-) Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 00:50:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i624nxRM005298 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:49:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i624nOd5002746 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:49:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i624n0th039001; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:49:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from secure4.netll.com (secure4.netll.com [208.38.152.40]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i624mvti038945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:48:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lithiate@secure4.netll.com) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.34) id 1BgFz1-0003HX-Fe for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:49:07 -0400 From: "Sarah Lorraine" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Photography at the V&A, was Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.26 X-IPAddress: 69.111.110.116 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:49:07 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >PS: How did you get your photos to come out so well? Most of my V&A pictures >are just darkness. >Lauren LOL! You should have seen the photos I accidentally erased on the train to Bath! I had fabulous detailed shots of their embroidery and blackwork pieces that are in the textile room and pictures of almost every costume in the place, but I was jet lagged and playing around with my digital camera and there was this nice little faerie that asked if I wanted to see what the "initialize" function did on the camera... And the rest is history. I think I had a few things working in my favor, though... The camera I was using was fabulous in low-light conditions, especially for a digital camera (Fujifilm FinePix A101, if anyone is curious. It lacks an optical zoom, but like all my Fujis, is just a terrific little camera). I also got good at balancing myself against the glass cases to minimize any shaking that might occur. But still, there were plenty of burry photos regardless. ;) I can't wait to go back with my really good cameras and take more photos! Sarah, who recently returned to the list, as well http://www.modehistorique.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 01:42:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i625g9RM005457 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 01:42:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i625eGd5005986 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:40:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i625eCth064213; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:40:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i625eAth064191 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:40:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-206-244.cvip.net [129.8.206.244]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37ED748776 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 22:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040701222848.00b15510@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 22:40:23 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: RE: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks In-Reply-To: <000201c45fb0$38e3ea00$6a01a8c0@SG01> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040701135955.02579788@64.87.54.245> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 02:13 PM 7/1/2004 -0700, you wrote: >[Sg] I called several millenary suppliers and was told that the balsa was a >typical block used so that you could put pins in it. They are not to be >used with steam and pressure. > >The hardwood ones are for blocking straw and felt with steam. > >I am also looking into dolly blocks (linen) blocks. > >Sg Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Although the hat book I read spoke of pinning and steaming on a block, so I am not sure what you would just pin, and not steam. I am just getting into hat making, and started with flat patterns. I found a linen "dolly block" as you call it on eBay that came with the metal clamp for "Buy It Now" price cheaper than I saw them going without the clamp, so I snagged it. Other than cleaning the head a bit, I haven't gotten to use it yet, but I just finished up with the brim, and the next steps should end up using it. I would recommend watching eBay to see what comes up for sale there. They have it listed under things like wig heads, or hat forms, or hat blocks, or linen mannequin heads, or milliner* head. I keep looking at the hardwood blocks, but I am not sure when I will be getting into steaming things. "Real Life" issues are intruding, so I think the hats are going to have to take a back burner for a few weeks. Good luck on your searches. Kimiko Small Owner ~ DreamTime Studios http://www.dreamtime-studios.com Fresno, CA, USA "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 01:49:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i625mxRM005474 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 01:48:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i625l9d5006327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:47:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i625l7th067551; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:47:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.donet.com (mail.donet.com [64.56.96.53]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i625l4ti067496 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 23:47:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mjh@pearlandplume.com) Received: (qmail 25233 invoked by alias); 2 Jul 2004 05:47:00 -0000 X-Sender: mjh@pearlandplume.com X-Recipient: h-costume@indra.com Received: from dhcp065-024-121-118.columbus.rr.com (HELO ?65.24.121.118?) (65.24.121.118) by mail.donet.com for h-costume@indra.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2004 05:47:00 -0000 Received-SPF: none (mail.donet.com: domain at pearlandplume.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 01:42:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A From: Marsha J Hamilton To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003b01c45fed$7f849620$cb6afea9@sherry> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Garments like the V&A robe are shown in Mughal Indian and Iranian portraits and court scenes. You can see similar garments worn by Akbar the Great at: http://sangha.net/messengers/akbar.htm#Images%20of%20Akbar%20the It is a man's garment. Years ago, I examined a late 18th century Iranian court presentation robe cut like it, made of red and green silk shot with silver thread. The body had side seems centered under the armholes. The sleeves were longer than the arm, allowing the flare at the bottom to partially cover the hand. The front was lined to keep it smooth. From paintings, it looks like some may be lightly padded to keep their shape. Some paintings show attached skirts falling loosely, others contain a lot of fabric and flare out. The shorter, flared style is worn over trousers. If you want construction ideas, Folkware shows two patterns on their website http://www.folkwear.com/111.html Nepali shirt http://www.folkwear.com/134.html Asian tops and wraps that have similar asymmetrical tops with fabric ties and long sleeves. You'd need to attached a pleated or gored skirt but it would provide ideas for the top of the garment. Enjoy! Marsha ------- on 7/2/04 12:31 AM, Shane & Sheridan at shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > ...I still wish I could see better where the seams were, but I think >> I'll just play with it and see where they want to be, given the nature of >> the sleeves and the front closing. I am, however, delighted to have some >> guidance on what it actually IS; I don't mind at all that it is probably a >> man's garment. Here in the 21st C the transvestism will go utterly >> unnoticed, I am sure. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 05:00:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6290WRM032749 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:00:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i628xmd5015026 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:59:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i628xcth067028; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:59:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i628xYti066896 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:59:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.183]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i6293ZUp025328 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:03:36 +1000 Message-ID: <005701c46012$cbff4ac0$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040701135955.02579788@64.87.54.245> <5.2.1.1.0.20040701222848.00b15510@64.87.54.245> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hatblocks Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:58:50 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO For the DIYers amongst us.. Hat blocks aren't that hard to make yourself if you have access to a saw and a sander, and some spare time (yeah sure, as it any of us have any of that...) A friend of mine made a lovely one recently out of the wood from a broken wooden industrial palette. First she put the pieces together as a puzzle and cut off all the bits that didn't look like the hat she wanted to make. I think she used a bandsaw, but a handsaw would do the task well, albeit slower. Then she glued it together with waterproof glue and finished with a sander. Looks great (so did the hat), and cost nothing. Glenda. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 05:26:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i629Q9RM000561 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:26:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629O6d5016477 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:24:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629O5th079225; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:24:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629O3th079162 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:24:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:21:37 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE:[h-cost] Anyone live near Warwick Castle or plan on visiting To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEC4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: RE:[h-cost] Anyone live near Warwick Castle or plan on visiting Thread-Index: AcRflFEcLV+7+SmwRhCuisbbLY0iXAAgTqMg content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Saragrace I was in Warwick a couple of times last year and visited the castle the year before. Next tiem I'm in the area will be October, I think > Just checking in again.there is a portrait there I would like > to get a picture of. (its not available in a book or > postcard.already checked) Remind me in October if you haven't gotten a copy by then. If we're able, I'll try and call in at the castle with my digital camera when we pass through the area and see if the pic you want is on display and if they allow photography. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 05:31:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i629VjRM000625 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:31:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629Ttd5016726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:29:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629Trth082221; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:29:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629Tpth082186 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:29:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:24:35 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] He's Back! To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEC5@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] He's Back! Thread-Index: AcRflFEcLV+7+SmwRhCuisbbLY0iXAAgb5BQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Oh yeah, Teddy's back :). > > So maybe you and Nicole can just trade around some pieces :)???? Nicole already has one of my old costumes I no longer fit into and she's probably gotten far too slim for that now And I'm way too big to fit into the garments that fit Nicole at her biggest. > Catherine > who is having surgery on her foot next week and is supposed > to be off of it for a month. Sounds like a good time to go > on a diet!!!! Best of luck! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 05:33:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i629XsRM000645 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:33:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629XJd5016917 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:33:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629XJth083848; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:33:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629XCti083811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:33:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.183]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i629bNUp027540 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:37:24 +1000 Message-ID: <007701c46017$84ca9600$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEC4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: Re: RE:[h-cost] Anyone live near Warwick Castle or plan on visiting Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:32:38 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Saragrace, I've got close-ups of a couple of portraits from Warwick. Which one was it you were after? Glenda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 05:38:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i629bxRM000709 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:38:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629bPd5017058 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:37:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629bNth085855; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:37:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41502.mail.yahoo.com (web41502.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i629bLth085799 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:37:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040702093715.7503.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.66.208.11] by web41502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:37:15 BST Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:37:15 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Marquesate?= Subject: RE:[h-cost] Anyone live near Warwick Castle or plan on visiting To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEC4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think I know which portrait you mean and if it is in the blue room then it was impossible to take a picture of it because of the angle. Nicole --- Teddy wrote: > Hi Saragrace > > I was in Warwick a couple of times last year and visited the castle the > year before. Next tiem I'm in the area will be October, I think > > > Just checking in again.there is a portrait there I would like > > to get a picture of. (its not available in a book or > > postcard.already checked) > > Remind me in October if you haven't gotten a copy by then. If we're > able, I'll try and call in at the castle with my digital camera when we > pass through the area and see if the pic you want is on display and if > they allow photography. > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 05:43:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i629hbRM000752 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:43:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629fod5017305 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:41:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629fmth088051; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:41:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629fjth088006 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:41:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:40:04 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] bathing dress To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEC6@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] bathing dress Thread-Index: AcRflahPp4C91We/S0+j1TpufsFHXwAgsevQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > The picture below includes two men: > http://www.capitolamuseum.org/SwimwearArticle.html > Hope it's useful, Very useful. Thanks!!! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 05:50:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i629o4RM000849 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:50:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629nWd5017698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:49:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629nVth091740; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:49:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i629nUth091722 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 03:49:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:47:55 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] bathing dress To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEC8@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] bathing dress Thread-Index: AcRf62iSm7UrAtAPQtuaAQDK3BnsPwALiegg content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I looked into this for the 'bathing suit' competition > at Costume-Con 18--one lady in a short-sleeved top > with knee-length skirts and breeches; a second lady in > long sleeves and long pants with a knee-length skirt; > and a gentleman fig-leafed by a towel. > we won. : ) Excellent! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 08:06:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62C6HRM002199 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:06:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62C5gd5023684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:05:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62C5Yth064015; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:05:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav4.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62C5Wth063925 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:05:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 05:00:34 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.57 by bay1-dav4.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:00:32 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.57] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] off topic, "snipping" & plaid Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:00:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jul 2004 12:00:34.0849 (UTC) FILETIME=[2E84A910:01C4602C] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO *plaintive whine* but I LIKE plaid.......*perky look* here I have this orange brocade could that be matched to it?? eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 12:19 AM Subject: [h-cost] off topic, "snipping" & plaid > Polyester bombs..hmmm...could be worse, could be that plaid wool that makes > men weep, women faint and children scream. > Showed that plaid to my shire and half of them went blind, what was I > thinking! Hmmm maybe theres something here..now how can we get spammers to > look at this plaid? :) > > -----Original Message----- > Yes *eg* Bice has no hand in the running here. Trimming is also at your own > consciences. *evil laughter from piles of polyester bombs aimed at Jerusha* > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 08:36:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62CawRM002597 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:36:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62CaPd5025219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:36:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62CaNth080236; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:36:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt13.ihug.co.nz (grunt13.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62CaJth080101 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:36:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p213-nas12.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.205.213] by grunt13.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BgNGx-0004We-00; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:36:07 +1200 Message-ID: <002101c46031$24e778b0$d5cdadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEC5@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: dieting excuses Re: [h-cost] He's Back! Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:36:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Catherine > > who is having surgery on her foot next week and is supposed > > to be off of it for a month. Sounds like a good time to go > > on a diet!!!! Heheh, I've been using costumes as an excuse;) In April I decided to put all the cards on the table and entre a contest in which I wore a recreation from moulin Rouge (the Black Diamonds number.) With 5 weeks to lose 5 kilos to actually fit the corset (and not much else) I had all the incentive I needed;) I couldn't change costume after that date and I wasn't about to pull out;) http://costumes.glittersweet.com/bdjournal/blackdiamondsdiary.htm Pity most of it's gone back on;) Not really but the next biggie involves a lot of layers and I *need* to lose that weight again to suit the style like *I* want to. http://costumes.glittersweet.com/sca/valois.htm So good luck:) Sometimes these events are helpful;) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 09:36:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62DahRM003327 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:36:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62DYtd5028731 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62DYpth013563; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:34:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu (kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu [169.147.4.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62DYlth013437 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:34:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ckinsey@kumc.edu) Received: from KUMC-SMTPOUT-DOMAIN-MTA by kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:34:39 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Beta Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:34:29 -0500 From: "Catherine Kinsey" To: Subject: Re: dieting excuses Re: [h-cost] He's Back! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO So good luck:) Sometimes these events are helpful;) michaela >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the good thoughts! You to Teddy! And thanks for the pics Nicole & Michaela, I always enjoy seeing what you two have created. Costume content; since it is the sewing peddle foot I am going to use the time for handwork, hoping to get a lot of embroidery done on a couple of shirts, and may even try handstitching one of them. This weekend will be spent in prework :). Catherine _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 10:04:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62E42RM003459 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:04:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62E1wd5001121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:01:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62E1tth030673; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:01:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62E18th030104 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:01:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgObB-00015b-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 07:01:05 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:01:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c4603d$06ee0430$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20040702093715.7503.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Electess of Saxony Picture was:RE: Anyone live near Warwick Castle or plan on visiting X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks to all who responded. The picture I am looking for is The Electress of Saxony (Anne of Cleves' sister). I wondered about the angle of the picture which Nicole mentioned. Apparently the portrait is huge! If anyone has it, (even if it isn't a great pic) I would be obliged. And Teddy, you are on my calendar for October. It is my understanding that photography is allowed. VR, Saragrace _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 10:05:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62E5jRM003465 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:05:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62E5Bd5001426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:05:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62E57th032701; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:05:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62E55th032680 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:05:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgOf2-0002Bj-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 07:05:04 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Hatblocks Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 07:05:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c4603d$95377e10$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <005701c46012$cbff4ac0$eaf4fea9@glendaii> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i62E55th032680 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I saw in "From the neck up" these instructions, but I don't know that I could get the shape even close. I was thinking of having my husband do a duct tape dummy of my head (I guess I'll have to leave a space to breath-eek I am a little clostrophobic!) and then make a cast of it.... For now I think I will try the linen head block since they come in sizes....they aren't too bad. Sg Thanks for all the ideas! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 10:25:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62EPgRM003550 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:25:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62EP4d5003719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:25:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62EP2th045860; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:25:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62EOsth045797 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 08:24:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 15:22:51 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FED4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur Thread-Index: AcRgMm/cJineOAaCRim/MQ3s3hVu1gADXIZw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > PS: How did you get your photos to come out so well? Most of > my V&A pictures are just darkness. Lauren **Don't ask that!!!** Sarah had a photo disaster while visiting here and lost a lot of the pictures she took. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 11:22:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62FMTRM005076 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:22:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62FKhd5009272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:20:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62FKSth087671; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:20:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62FKPth087634 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:20:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i62FoY5c062485 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:50:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i62FoYJ7062484 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:50:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407021550.i62FoYJ7062484@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Electess of Saxony Picture was:RE: Anyone live near Warwick Castle or plan on visiting In-Reply-To: <000001c4603d$06ee0430$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Thanks to all who responded. The picture I am looking for is The Electress > of Saxony (Anne of Cleves' sister). I wondered about the angle of the > picture which Nicole mentioned. Apparently the portrait is huge! Oh, darn. The picture that I had in mind was of Anne of Denmark. I keep hoping to find a color copy of that picture -- and then I saw that the original was in Dresden. *sigh* What does this picture look like? Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 11:47:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62FkxRM005329 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:46:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62FkPd5012090 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:46:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62FkKth008537; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:46:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net (starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.227]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62FkHth008490 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:46:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.238.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.238] helo=HELENPINTO) by starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BgQEy-0003yl-C5 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 08:46:17 -0700 Message-ID: <008801c4604b$b2980f20$ee399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEC6@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost] bathing dress Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:46:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9efe3f6f343f018e0599ac662f2e5ace9e8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.238 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Any time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teddy" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] bathing dress > > > The picture below includes two men: > > http://www.capitolamuseum.org/SwimwearArticle.html > > Hope it's useful, > > Very useful. > > Thanks!!! > > Teddy > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 12:08:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62G8aRM005441 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:08:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62G66d5014186 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:06:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62G63th025606; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:06:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62G5wth025547 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:05:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgQY0-00004D-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:05:56 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:06:00 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c4604e$77e9e7b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200407021550.i62FoYJ7062484@sabre.goldsword.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Anne of Denmark:was Electress of Saxony X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Oh, darn. The picture that I had in mind was of Anne of Denmark. > I keep hoping to find a color copy of that picture -- and then I saw > that the original was in Dresden. *sigh* [Sg] Are you talking about the one where she is dressed in Black? > What does this picture look like? [Sg] The Electress of Saxony is a full length, full bore, Cranach gown complete with organ pipe pleats. I only have an illustration of it. Her face looks rather pinched in it. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 12:21:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62GLPRM005543 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:21:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62GIDd5015567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:18:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62GIBth035586; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:18:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net (starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.227]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62GI9th035562 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:18:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.238.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.238] helo=HELENPINTO) by starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BgQjp-0003yf-63 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:18:09 -0700 Message-ID: <00e101c46050$28096110$ee399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c4603d$06ee0430$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Electess of Saxony Picture was:RE: Anyone live nearWarwick Castle or plan on visiting Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:18:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9eff6babb8c57e68ec69df1a3d1640bdfe6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.238 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here's the famous picture of Anne's older sister Sybille by Lucas Cranach: http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Cleves,Sybille.jpg This one is interesting; they think the sketch might be her younger sister Amelia, of whom there is no currently authenticated portrait: http://www.geocities.com/lady_anne_of_cleves/anneamelia.html Good luck finding the picture, -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 12:37:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62Gb6RM005643 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:37:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62GXud5017275 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:33:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62GXmth048440; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:33:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62GXTth048072 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:33:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1182181 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:33:15 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:33:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040701222848.00b15510@64.87.54.245> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On 7/1/04 10:40 PM, "Kimiko Small" wrote: > At 02:13 PM 7/1/2004 -0700, you wrote: >> [Sg] I called several millenary suppliers and was told that the balsa was a >> typical block used so that you could put pins in it. They are not to be >> used with steam and pressure. >> >> The hardwood ones are for blocking straw and felt with steam. >> >> I am also looking into dolly blocks (linen) blocks. >> >> Sg > > > Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Although the hat book I read spoke of > pinning and steaming on a block, so I am not sure what you would just pin, > and not steam. A block you can pin on but not steam would be good for when you have straw braid to form into a hat. You get the braid damp then start forming and pinning the straw to the shape you want it on the block. Once you get so far, you hand stitch, then pin some more. I don't have any balsa blocks, just the old hard wood blocks. LynnD _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 12:42:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62GgMRM005657 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:42:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Gadd5017492 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:36:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Gacth050740; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:36:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell3.shore.net (shell3.shore.net [207.244.124.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62GZ1ti049402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:35:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from vintage@primushost.com) Received: from vintage by shell3.shore.net with local (Exim) for id 1BgR1m-0001FO-00; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 12:36:42 -0400 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:36:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Katy Bishop To: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] bathing dress In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FE9B@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: h-costume@indra.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have made a couple of men's bathing costumes in styles from the second half of the 19th century. I basically made a short sleeved shirt, in knit fabric in cotton, though woll would probably be more accurate, with several buttons on a placket down the center front, and matching shorts that are then attached to the shirt to create a one piece garment. I have a couple of period men's bathing costume illustrations on my website: http://www.vintagevictorian.com/bathing.html Someday I'll gather all the pictures I have and produce a book. The neckline can also be scooped and eliminate the buttons, maybe with buttons on one shoulder, and sleeveless. I made these years ago, I can see if I can find a picture. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page there is a small black and white photo of this type of suit which I didn't make (the man on the right). http://www.vintagedancers.org/newport/n_01bro.html Hope this helps Katy On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Teddy wrote: > >> In a message dated 6/24/2004 7:18:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, >> wishingonasta60@hotmail.com writes: >> http://www.agelesspatterns.com/71_Swimwearx.html >> http://www.agelesspatterns.com/70_Swimwearx.html >> These look great, but I've had experience before with >> patterns that are >> supposedly taken from period illustrations but leave a LOT to >> be desired. Anyone >> have experience with these particular patterns? > >Never used them, but disappointed that they don't have any mens bathing >outfits on offer - I need on made by the end of august and I'm startign >to get itnto panic mode about whether I'll find enough time to make >it.... > >Teddy >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 13:07:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62H78RM005757 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:07:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62H5Kd5020528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:05:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62H4Gth072699; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:04:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62H3Cth071829 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:03:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Widowweeds@cs.com) Received: from Widowweeds@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.7a.5b3199c9 (15864) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tlininn (mattdrury.net [68.142.30.226]) by air-id06.mx.aol.com (v100.23) with ESMTP id MAILINID63-3df840e5954626f; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:03:02 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c46056$6e7dab00$6401a8c0@tlininn> From: "Widow Weeds" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040630123800.58756.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> <002601c45f04$2ee0d150$77a176cb@michaela> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:03:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-AOL-IP: 68.142.30.226 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Atlanta museums? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Are there any good museums with costume collections near a MARTA station in Atlanta? I'll be in town in early August, but with limited time to schlep around, and prefer to take the train when I can. Thanks! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 13:13:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62HDNRM005768 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:13:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62HBXd5021674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:11:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62HBUth079344; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:11:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62H9Nth077037 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:09:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Widowweeds@cs.com) Received: from Widowweeds@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.7a.5b3199c9 (15864) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tlininn (mattdrury.net [68.142.30.226]) by air-id06.mx.aol.com (v100.23) with ESMTP id MAILINID63-3df840e5954626f; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:03:02 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c46056$6e7dab00$6401a8c0@tlininn> From: "Widow Weeds" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040630123800.58756.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> <002601c45f04$2ee0d150$77a176cb@michaela> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:03:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-AOL-IP: 68.142.30.226 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Atlanta museums? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO Are there any good museums with costume collections near a MARTA station in Atlanta? I'll be in town in early August, but with limited time to schlep around, and prefer to take the train when I can. Thanks! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 13:45:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62HjaRM005856 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:45:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Hiod5025133 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:44:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Hilth006869; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:44:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Hibth006758 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 11:44:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgS5S-0006xb-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:44:34 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:44:38 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c4605c$3f74bf50$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Electress of Saxony facsimile X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i62HjaRM005856 Status: RO http://www.saragrace.net/images/syblofcleves.tif Hopefully this link will work. I am on a different server now and the security stuff is 'different' to say the least. This is the picture I am looking for. She haves that interesting almond eye look that the younger girls do..(which I had read somewhere was part of the ''idealized'' woman look) now I can't remember the process I went through to figure out that she was Anne's sister and that the portrait was in Warwick castle, as the book I scanned this from does not say that..hmmm. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 14:19:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62IJ3RM006050 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:19:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62IE3er028492 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:17:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62I03th018720; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:00:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from whowhere.com (in02-fes1.whowhere.com [209.202.220.218]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i62I01th018582 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:00:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@eudoramail.com) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by whowhere.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:59:42 -0000 To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:59:42 0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Priority: 3 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur X-Sender-Ip: 130.88.55.186 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've taken tons of photos in the V&A and they all turn out great unless my hand shakes...I have a digital camera and can turn my flash off, oddly enough, the photos with flash don't turn out as well. Mind you, the photos I have taken in the past with a non-digital camera have turned out very dark. Cheers, Danielle --------- Original Message --------- >PS: How did you get your photos to come out so well? Most of my V&A pictures >are just darkness. >Lauren >-- > >> From: "Sarah Lorraine" >> Photos can be found at the >> bottom of this page: >> >> http://www.modehistorique.com/extantclothes.html >> >> :) >> >> Sarah >> http://www.modehistorique.com >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 15:09:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62J9qRM006341 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:09:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62J7td5004330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:07:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62J7ith071198; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:07:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62J7gth071167 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:07:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7befe.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.254]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 67BF95EE072 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:07:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:07:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] sincere apologises X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello, Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave you some time back. It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about this. I wish it never had happened. I cant give you any excuses for the thing i did, but i want to give you an explanation about what happened to me. I am an alcoholic, and i am so much ashamed and sorry for this. It is a kronic thing, and i will never be cured for it. Sometimes when i have not ben drinking for a long time, i think that i am cured again and that i can drink again. This happened to me, and i started to drink. After 3 days, my brain was totally alcoholised and i wrote that email to the list :-( I cant explain why i did it, because i have many great friends in America, and i dont have that oppinion at all. But please accept my sincere apollogises to you all, i promise it will not happend again. I am sober again, and i think that i now know, that there is no return, i simply must stop drinking again. I know that it is hard for you to read about my problems, but it was only because i wanted to explain what had happened to me. I have missed you soo much, and i look forwards to read all your posts again Many greetings Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 15:22:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62JM1RM006383 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:22:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JLSd5005532 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:21:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JLQth081207; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:21:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JLLth081142 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:21:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i62JpT5c064949 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:51:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i62JpTMl064948 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:51:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407021951.i62JpTMl064948@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Anne of Denmark:was Electress of Saxony In-Reply-To: <000701c4604e$77e9e7b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Oh, darn. The picture that I had in mind was of Anne of Denmark. > > I keep hoping to find a color copy of that picture -- and then I saw > > that the original was in Dresden. *sigh* > > [Sg] Are you talking about the one where she is dressed in Black? this one out of Davenport. I think I've found a better copy to scan, though. > > > What does this picture look like? > [Sg] The Electress of Saxony is a full length, full bore, Cranach gown > complete with organ pipe pleats. I only have an illustration of it. Her > face looks rather pinched in it. I've got this one of Sybill of Cleves but it's not full length. The only other one that I have that *might* be it is Jerusha, the image pack-rat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 15:27:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62JRYRM006404 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:27:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JPfd5005848 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:25:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JPeth084372; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:25:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JPcth084341 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:25:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i62JPYjE011664 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:25:35 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:27:14 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne, we are so delighted to have you back. I for one have learned a lot from your posts, and look forward to seeing more of your lovely work. Talia in Kansas, USA _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 15:29:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62JTvRM006418 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:29:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JS9d5006121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:28:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JS8th086124; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:28:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JQwth085263 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:27:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i62Jv65c065027 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:57:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i62Jv6ZG065026 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:57:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407021957.i62Jv6ZG065026@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Atlanta museums? In-Reply-To: <001c01c46056$6e7dab00$6401a8c0@tlininn> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Are there any good museums with costume collections near a MARTA station in > Atlanta? I'll be in town in early August, but with limited time to schlep > around, and prefer to take the train when I can. Thanks! And on a similar subject -- how about the Charlotte NC area? Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 15:35:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62JZNRM006452 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:35:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JXWd5006700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:33:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JXV4g090132; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:33:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62JXP4g090086 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:33:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i62K3a5c065112 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:03:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i62K3ZW1065111 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:03:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407022003.i62K3ZW1065111@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I've taken tons of photos in the V&A and they all turn out great unless my hand shakes...I have a digital camera and can turn my flash off, oddly enough, the photos with flash don't turn out as well. Mind you, the photos I have taken in the past with a non-digital camera have turned out very dark. If I had to guess -- the flash reflects off the glass -- you have to be at an angle -- say 45 degrees when you use flash rather than straight on -- otherwise the flash bounces right back to the camera. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 16:11:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62KBpRM006591 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:11:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62K9wd5010303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:09:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62K9s4g017107; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:09:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62K9p4g017051 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:09:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgUM0-0002hA-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 13:09:48 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 13:09:52 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c46070$897f6e10$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i62K9p4g017051 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear Bjarne, I admire your courage and ability to admit your drinking problem and take responsibility for your actions. Not everyone can do this. I think I know you well enough that what you said was so unlike you. Having dealt with alcohol in my family (my father died of it), I know what it can do to you. I have missed you as well on the list, as I am sure others have. Welcome back! Saragrace _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 16:47:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62Kl8RM006774 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:47:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62KjJd5013613 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:45:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Kj84g042647; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:45:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.gmx.net (imap.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i62Kj24g042464 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:45:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cassandra@greer.de) Received: (qmail 23569 invoked by uid 65534); 2 Jul 2004 20:44:52 -0000 Received: from pD9E8E75C.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO cassandr6a9wj0) (217.232.231.92) by mail.gmx.net (mp024) with SMTP; 02 Jul 2004 22:44:52 +0200 X-Authenticated: #13649924 From: "Cassandra Greer" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:04:40 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200407021957.i62Jv6ZG065026@sabre.goldsword.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Anyone need a photo touched up? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO HI all! It's been forever since I have read anything on the list... Having a (very cute cuddly well-behaved but nevertheless requiring much energy on my side) baby is quite distracting. I'm finally to a point where my brain isn't quite so mushy anymore and can actually take in some new information. To stimulate my brain cells I have chosen to take an intermediate Photoshop class online. One of the focuses is photo restoration - which I would like to get better at. However I have no photos to restore. Sooooo I am wondering if any of you have some vintage photos (esp if they have cool costumes ;) you don't mind me playing with (or rather the scans thereof)? I have a DSL connection so sending me a large file would make it easier to work on the photo. I can also make the finished product into something that will work on a website too. Let me know - I would like to have a couple to work on this weekend since this is when I have time for a long while... Thanks in advance! Cass :) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 17:09:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62L9vRM006824 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:09:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62L9Kd5015660 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:09:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62L9I4g059513; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:09:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i62L9G4g059425 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:09:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OotnhXdNkLgQuxOqF+BHSME= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZKH3PWV; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:08:51 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:07:44 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises Message-ID: <20040702.140745.1408.1.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-9 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Welcome back Bjarne! It takes a lot of courage to admit what you have here, and to apologize for your actions. Thank you. We've missed you! Stay well. Arlys ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 17:32:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62LWoRM006889 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:32:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62LV1d5017506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:31:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62LUw4g074559; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:30:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web50807.mail.yahoo.com (web50807.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i62LUp4g074423 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:30:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from albrakat7@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040702213043.72358.qmail@web50807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.201.30] by web50807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:30:43 PDT Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:30:43 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And we missed you as well, Bjarne, very much! Many thanks for your apology---and you certainly have my understanding and compassion on this ; my father, as well as 2 of my great Uncles were alcoholics.My father was finally able to finish his last 20 years sober---as was one of my Uncles, although it was not easy. But one poor Uncle was unable to---and I'm afrraid that the toll it took on his health contributed to his early death.:( Please do not give up working to stay sober--Bjarne , you have too many wonderful gifts to waste! Welcome back! Albra/Kathryn Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Hello, Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave you some time back. It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about this. I wish it never had happened. I cant give you any excuses for the thing i did, but i want to give you an explanation about what happened to me. I am an alcoholic, and i am so much ashamed and sorry for this. It is a kronic thing, and i will never be cured for it. Sometimes when i have not ben drinking for a long time, i think that i am cured again and that i can drink again. This happened to me, and i started to drink. After 3 days, my brain was totally alcoholised and i wrote that email to the list :-( I cant explain why i did it, because i have many great friends in America, and i dont have that oppinion at all. But please accept my sincere apollogises to you all, i promise it will not happend again. I am sober again, and i think that i now know, that there is no return, i simply must stop drinking again. I know that it is hard for you to read about my problems, but it was only because i wanted to explain what had happened to me. I have missed you soo much, and i look forwards to read all your posts again Many greetings Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 17:47:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62LlZRM006939 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:47:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Ll1d5019013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:47:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Lku4g085270; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:46:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net (cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Lkq4g085222 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:46:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgVrv-0003Pu-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 14:46:51 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:46:56 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c4607e$18aad090$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Another painting to find... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i62LlZRM006939 Status: RO Does anyone knoe where this painting might be in a book or catalogue.? http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/products/?item_id=B000001Q75 &search_type=AsinSearch&locale=us (one of my favorite albums) According to the little booklet in the cd it comes from a Tryptich in the town hall of Zierikzee. It says courtesy of Musees royaux des Beaux-Arts de Belgique, Bruxelles, but I understand it may reside at the AMSTERDAM Rijksmuseum. It is done by Master of the JOSEPH SEQUENCE (Master of Affligem) They don't appear to have it online. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 17:54:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62LsfRM006973 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:54:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Lpcd5019300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:51:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Lpb4g088095; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:51:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from aardvark.edurostream.com (aardvark.edurostream.com [12.17.11.130]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62LpW4g088043 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:51:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sue@victorianmillinery.com) Received: from D7W6QR21 (ddu138-131.xecu.net [216.127.138.131]) by aardvark.edurostream.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 6.0.6) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:57:32 -0400 Message-ID: <001401c4607e$bb833320$838a7fd8@D7W6QR21> From: "Sue" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000101c45f88$8e5395d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:51:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Balsa is too light of a wood, If you really want to do a lot of blocking, you need to buy ones of harder wood. Sue@VictorianMillinery.com 401 Fairview Ave. Frederick, MD 21701 301-694-8950 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 12:29 PM Subject: [h-cost] Average cost for hatblocks > I have found a balsa hatblock for 50$. Most other places are between 80 and > 150. Anyone know why? > > > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 17:58:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62LwVRM006977 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:58:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Lukd5019754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:56:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Luh4g091212; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:56:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Luf4g091165 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:56:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA20042 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:56:39 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:56:39 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20040702.140745.1408.1.Cley@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne: Please feel free to email me if you need to talk. You have shared so much of your costuming talent with the members of h-costume and it takes a superior person to admit a problem and apologize. None of us are perfect and we've missed you. Cindy Abel -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Cynthia J Ley Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 4:08 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises Welcome back Bjarne! It takes a lot of courage to admit what you have here, and to apologize for your actions. Thank you. We've missed you! Stay well. Arlys ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 18:01:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62M1dRM006985 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:01:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Lxid5019997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:59:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Lxg4g093000; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:59:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Lx14g092489 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 15:59:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.45.179]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040702215901.QKLK27801.out008.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:59:01 -0500 Message-ID: <000701c4607f$cd919600$b32d2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:59:08 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.33.45.179] at Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:59:01 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO As a member of a family that has struggled for generations with alcohol and alcoholics, I accept you apologies and wish you strength in all your endeavors. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: [h-cost] sincere apologises > Hello, > Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. > I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave > you some time back. > It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about > this. I wish it never had happened. > I cant give you any excuses for the thing i did, but i want to give you an > explanation about what happened to me. > I am an alcoholic, and i am so much ashamed and sorry for this. It is a > kronic thing, and i will never be cured for it. > Sometimes when i have not ben drinking for a long time, i think that i am > cured again and that i can drink again. This happened to me, and i started > to drink. After 3 days, my brain was totally alcoholised and i wrote that > email to the list :-( I cant explain why i did it, because i have many > great friends in America, and i dont have that oppinion at all. > But please accept my sincere apollogises to you all, i promise it will not > happend again. > I am sober again, and i think that i now know, that there is no return, i > simply must stop drinking again. > I know that it is hard for you to read about my problems, but it was only > because i wanted to explain what had happened to me. > I have missed you soo much, and i look forwards to read all your posts again > > Many greetings > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 19:55:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i62NtFRM007238 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:55:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62Nshd5029240 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:54:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i62NsZ4g056163; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:54:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51307.mail.yahoo.com (web51307.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i62NsV4g056071 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:54:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040702235426.52513.qmail@web51307.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.237.35.14] by web51307.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 16:54:26 PDT Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:54:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli Subject: RE: [h-cost] bathing dress To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --- Katy Bishop wrote: > > I have made a couple of men's bathing costumes in > styles from the second half of the 19th century. > > http://www.vintagevictorian.com/bathing.html > > I made these years ago, I can see if I can find a > picture. > > Katy I look forward to seeing any pictures you find of the bathing costumes you made. Ann in CT __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 20:34:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i630YCRM007321 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:34:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630WKd5001593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:32:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630WI4g074642; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:32:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630WG4h074625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:32:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-163.sonic.net [209.148.112.163]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i630WEfo005218 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 17:32:14 -0700 Message-ID: <40E5FFB8.4000304@lavoltapress.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 17:37:12 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Sources for 1920s shawls and accessories X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO New, embroidered silk "piano shawls"" http://www.vintagestyleclothing.com/vintagepianoshawls.html Also dresses: http://vintagestyleclothing.com/catalog.html Beaded velvet shawls: http://www.silkmerchant.com Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming http://www.lavoltapress.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 20:46:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i630kIRM007365 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:46:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630hGd5002252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:43:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630hD4g079850; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:43:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from covert.brown-ring.iadfw.net (covert.black-ring.iadfw.net [209.196.123.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630hC4g079815 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:43:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lecachot@airmail.net) Received: from pppth08-492.ght.iadfw.net ([207.136.61.112] helo=hewlettt06rp0e) by covert.iadfw.net with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1BgYGX-00077o-6P for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 19:20:27 -0500 Message-ID: <008601c46093$9be10190$703d88cf@hewlettt06rp0e> From: "Lee & Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:20:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Idon't post often, I mostly lurk; but welcome back to the group. Your marvelous work was greatly missed. Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:07 PM Subject: [h-cost] sincere apologises > Hello, > Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. > I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave > you some time back. > It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about > this. I wish it never had happened. > I cant give you any excuses for the thing i did, but i want to give you an > explanation about what happened to me. > I am an alcoholic, and i am so much ashamed and sorry for this. It is a > kronic thing, and i will never be cured for it. > Sometimes when i have not ben drinking for a long time, i think that i am > cured again and that i can drink again. This happened to me, and i started > to drink. After 3 days, my brain was totally alcoholised and i wrote that > email to the list :-( I cant explain why i did it, because i have many > great friends in America, and i dont have that oppinion at all. > But please accept my sincere apollogises to you all, i promise it will not > happend again. > I am sober again, and i think that i now know, that there is no return, i > simply must stop drinking again. > I know that it is hard for you to read about my problems, but it was only > because i wanted to explain what had happened to me. > I have missed you soo much, and i look forwards to read all your posts again > > Many greetings > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 20:52:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i630qFRM007378 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:52:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630pMd5002796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:51:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630pL4g084008; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:51:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630pJ4h083973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:51:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i630nXYH004493 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:49:33 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40E60304.1000805@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:51:16 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises References: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne, that's about the only explaination that could account for those emails. Thank you for the apology. My father had your problem; I hope your treatment works as well for you as it did for him. I look forward to hearing about your projects. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Do it, Deligate it, or Drop it. -- vew _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 20:57:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i630vvRM007413 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:57:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630uDd5003240 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:56:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630u84g086770; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:56:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i630u64g086728 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:56:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gia_gavino@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.118 ([204.127.197.118]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004070300560101300je5lke>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:56:01 +0000 Received: from [24.16.242.58] by 204.127.197.118; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:55:59 +0000 From: gia_gavino@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Welcome back!Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:55:59 +0000 Message-Id: <070320040055.26141.40E6041F0004F1B70000661D2200750784010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Z2lhX2dhdmlub0Bjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -------------- Original message -------------- > Hello, > Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. > I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave > you some time back. > I have missed you soo much, and i look forwards to read all your posts again > > Many greetings > Bjarne > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 21:07:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63179RM007438 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:07:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6316ad5004026 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:06:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6316R4g092492; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:06:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6316P4g092431 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:06:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gia_gavino@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.111 ([204.127.197.111]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20040703010619015003imdce>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:06:19 +0000 Received: from [24.16.242.58] by 204.127.197.111; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:06:18 +0000 From: gia_gavino@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Welcome back!Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:06:18 +0000 Message-Id: <070320040106.742.40E6068A0001D2E1000002E62200737478010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Z2lhX2dhdmlub0Bjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, shoot I hit the send button..Sorry! Anyhow, I'm glad you are back! I'm glad you shared with us, your friends. I appreciate the courage it took for you to share. Hope you will continue to be the fun Bjarne I've gotten to know and enjoy all these years! Hugs! Gia/Emer -------------- Original message -------------- > Hello, > Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. > I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave > you some time back. > I have missed you soo much, and i look forwards to read all your posts again > > Many greetings > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 21:13:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i631D9RM007446 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:13:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631ACd5004256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:10:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631A94g094334; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:10:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631A74g094291 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:10:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13643 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:13:39 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:13:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <000201c4607e$18aad090$6a01a8c0@SG01> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > Does anyone knoe where this painting might be in a book or catalogue.? > > http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/products/?item_id=B000001Q75 > pe=AsinSearch&locale=us> &search_type=AsinSearch&locale=us > > According to the little booklet in the cd it comes from a Tryptich in > the town hall of Zierikzee. It says courtesy of Musees royaux des > Beaux-Arts de Belgique, Bruxelles, but I understand it may reside at > the AMSTERDAM Rijksmuseum. It is done by Master of the JOSEPH > SEQUENCE (Master of Affligem) They don't appear to have it online. Saragrace, I can't get anything from that URL, even after cut-and-pasting. Can you supply a better URL or a tinyurl? I have several reproductions of paintings by the Joseph Sequence master, and may be able to point you to the right book once I know which one you want. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 21:16:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i631GhRM007454 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:16:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631Dcd5004465 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:13:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631Db4g096076; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:13:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f26.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.26]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631AC4g094322 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:10:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:10:07 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:10:07 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:10:07 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2004 01:10:07.0320 (UTC) FILETIME=[7AB61580:01C4609A] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO how about McCalls new costume pattern.. http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/mccallspatterns/shop.cgi?s.item.400004621=x&TI=40001&pageNum=6&M=&UK=32999093 wilhelmina _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access helps fight spam and pop-ups – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 21:26:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i631QuRM007481 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:26:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631QSd5005264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:26:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631QQ4g001979; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:26:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f30.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631NJ4g000477 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:23:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:23:14 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:23:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 01:23:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2004 01:23:14.0317 (UTC) FILETIME=[4FCC4BD0:01C4609C] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ...the only thing I could find was Master of the Joseph Legend us http://artcyclopedia.com/ http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/master/joseph/index.html.. Wilhelmina >From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: >Subject: [h-cost] Another painting to find... >Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:46:56 -0700 > >Does anyone knoe where this painting might be in a book or catalogue.? > > > >http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/products/?item_id=B000001Q75 >pe=AsinSearch&locale=us> &search_type=AsinSearch&locale=us > > > >(one of my favorite albums) > > >According to the little booklet in the cd it comes from a Tryptich in the >town hall of Zierikzee. It says courtesy of Musees royaux des Beaux-Arts >de >Belgique, Bruxelles, but I understand it may reside at the AMSTERDAM >Rijksmuseum. It is done by Master of the JOSEPH SEQUENCE >(Master of Affligem) They don't appear to have it online. > > > >Sg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access helps fight spam and pop-ups – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 21:28:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i631SMRM007490 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:28:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631Qcd5005288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:26:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631Qc4g002088; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:26:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631QF4g001876 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:26:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13775 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:29:52 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:29:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <000201c4607e$18aad090$6a01a8c0@SG01> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > Does anyone knoe where this painting might be in a book or catalogue.? Aha -- ignore my previous post. I found an image by plugging the ASIN into Amazon. This is the portrait of Joan the Mad, also called Jeanne la Folle, wife of Philip the Fair (Phillipe la Beau). It is indeed by the Master of the Life of Joseph, active in Brussels at the end of the 15th century. The portraits of the two rulers were probably the wings of a triptych, the central panel of which is now gone. I have a slide of this, but I took it from the original painting at the Brussels Museum of Ancient Art, part of the Musee des Beaux Arts and a wonderful place to spend a day/week/month. The image is nicely reproduced in the museum catalog. I don't know where you can get this outside of Belgium, which is where I found mine, but it is available in several languages, including English. Mine is published under the imprint Musea Nostra, edited by Valentin Vermeersch and Jean-Marie Duvosquel, titled (in the English edition) "The Museum of Ancient Art, Brussels" with an overtitle "Royal Museums of Fine Arts, Belgium" and so might be filed under either. Quite a number of the Belgian museums had catalogs from the same publisher and in the same format -- they look very nice on the shelf all together ;-) No ISBN visible, but on the back page it says copyright 1988 by Ludion -- Cultura Nostra Brussels, and "Printed in Belgium by Lannoo - Tielt." Throw that all into WorldCat, and there should be something you can ILL. If you can't find it fairly quickly, email me offlist and I'll poke around some library catalogs for you. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 21:29:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i631TkRM007493 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:29:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631N3d5005016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:23:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631N04g000369; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:23:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pengo.systems.pipex.net (pengo.systems.pipex.net [62.241.160.193]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i631Mv4g000338 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:22:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from linda.walton@dsl.pipex.com) Received: from bella (81-86-114-151.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.114.151]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 51E104C00141 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:22:53 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001701c4609c$2fdd1840$97725651@bella> From: "Linda Walton" To: Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:22:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Mary Tudor Exhibition X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There is a splendid exhibition being held at Winchester Cathedral, (England). Tue 29 June - Thu 30 September THE MARRIAGE OF ENGLAND & SPAIN EXHIBITION A unique exhibition of pictures, armour, tapestry, books, documents and heraldry from major English and Spanish collections. There will also be lots of events, lectures and so on. More here:- http://www.winchester-cathedral.org.uk/services/events_anniv.htm The centrepiece of the exhibition is the painting of Queen Mary by Flemish artist Hans Eworth. There are more details and a picture here:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3813065.stm and something about the giant pearl she is wearing, La Peregrina. The following exhibition will be Sun 1 - Tue 31 August WEDDING COSTUME & CUSTOM A magnificent collection of wedding attire charting the evolution in wedding custom and fashion through the centuries. A little more information can be found if you scroll down to the foot of the same Winchester Cathedral webpage as above. Linda Walton, (in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.). _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 22:15:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i632FuRM007642 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:15:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i632EAd5007754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:14:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i632E74g022873; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:14:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i632E64g022830 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:14:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m48.in-tch.com [216.166.191.48]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i631nVg23952 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40E61751.4020208@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:17:53 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Some of mine came out beautifully, and some came out pretty crappy. The ones I had the most difficulty with were ones in which there were glass cases all close together, so no matter which angle I tried, I was getting glare/reflection from something. ;-( I was lucky enough to have a digital camera that had a specific setting for museums, too. --sue, who wants to go back soooo bad! *sniff* Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote: > I've taken tons of photos in the V&A and they all turn out great > unless my hand shakes...I have a digital camera and can turn my flash > off, oddly enough, the photos with flash don't turn out as well. > Mind you, the photos I have taken in the past with a non-digital > camera have turned out very dark. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 22:21:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i632LhRM007656 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:21:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i632Jkd5008090 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:19:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i632Jj4g025338; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:19:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i632Jh4g025308 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:19:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m48.in-tch.com [216.166.191.48]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i631tEg25723 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 19:55:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40E618A8.9000408@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:23:36 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mary Tudor Exhibition References: <001701c4609c$2fdd1840$97725651@bella> In-Reply-To: <001701c4609c$2fdd1840$97725651@bella> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Drooool! I wonder about the bit, though, where they were talking about those possibly being her coronation robes....Am I misremembering, or was there a bit in one of the wardrobe rolls included in QEUnlocked that talked about Mary's *purple* coronation robes? --sue, who could easily be completely off base with this one.... Linda Walton wrote: > There is a splendid exhibition being held at Winchester Cathedral, > (England). > > Tue 29 June - Thu 30 September > THE MARRIAGE OF ENGLAND & SPAIN EXHIBITION > A unique exhibition of pictures, armour, tapestry, books, documents and > heraldry from major English and Spanish collections. > There will also be lots of events, lectures and so on. More here:- > http://www.winchester-cathedral.org.uk/services/events_anniv.htm > > The centrepiece of the exhibition is the painting of Queen Mary by Flemish > artist Hans Eworth. There are more details and a picture here:- > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3813065.stm > and something about the giant pearl she is wearing, La Peregrina. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 22:31:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i632VlRM007691 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:31:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i632Tvd5008649 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:29:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i632Tt4g029956; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:29:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i632Tq4g029931 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:29:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m48.in-tch.com [216.166.191.48]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6325Ng29414 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:05:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40E61B09.7090303@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:33:45 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises References: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wow! What an amazing and brave apology! I was pretty puzzled and dismayed by that post, and I'm glad to know it wasn't something you actually believed, as a lot of us over here on this side of the pond think very highly of your skills and your willingness to share all the marvelous things you make. And I dare say an awful lot of us have had to deal with our own demons, either personally or with family members (me, too, although alcohol's a couple of generations distant). It's something we often have to work with our whole lives long, so keep at it, one day at a time, the best you can. And welcome back. We missed you. --sue Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Hello, > Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. > I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave > you some time back. > It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about > this. I wish it never had happened. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 23:08:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63380RM008068 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:08:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63364d5010703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:06:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6335w4g045673; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:05:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6335u4g045625 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:05:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lizyoung@fenris.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c-24-7-132-137.client.comcast.net[24.7.132.137]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20040703030551015003h070e>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 03:05:51 +0000 Message-ID: <40E6228E.8030507@fenris.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:05:50 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises References: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne, You are a brave and thoughtful person. It takes a lot to apologize and come back. No matter what happens in the future, I wish you the best of luck and hope you will keep telling us all about your wonderful projects! Liz Young Sacramento, California Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Hello, > Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. > I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave > you some time back. > It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about > this. I wish it never had happened. > I cant give you any excuses for the thing i did, but i want to give you an > explanation about what happened to me. > I am an alcoholic, and i am so much ashamed and sorry for this. It is a > kronic thing, and i will never be cured for it. > Sometimes when i have not ben drinking for a long time, i think that i am > cured again and that i can drink again. This happened to me, and i started > to drink. After 3 days, my brain was totally alcoholised and i wrote that > email to the list :-( I cant explain why i did it, because i have many > great friends in America, and i dont have that oppinion at all. > But please accept my sincere apollogises to you all, i promise it will not > happend again. > I am sober again, and i think that i now know, that there is no return, i > simply must stop drinking again. > I know that it is hard for you to read about my problems, but it was only > because i wanted to explain what had happened to me. > I have missed you soo much, and i look forwards to read all your posts again > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 23:14:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i633E9RM008081 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:14:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633DYd5011141 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:13:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633DW4g049090; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:13:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41108.mail.yahoo.com (web41108.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.24]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i633DW4g049026 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:13:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anastasi5@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040703031327.54975.qmail@web41108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.182.72.4] by web41108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:13:27 PDT Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:13:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Stacey To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407030043.i630hU4i080019@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Return of Bjarne X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Coming out of lurkdom to say welcome back, Bjarne. I guess we all have friends/experiences with addictions and now understand why you were so out of character. Get back to your sewing addiction, please. It's far healthier! Stacey __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 23:25:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i633PsRM008117 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:25:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633PPd5011905 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:25:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633PL4g054308; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:25:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633PI4g054201 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:25:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <200407030325130120003brae>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 03:25:13 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:24:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003b01c45fed$7f849620$cb6afea9@sherry> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear Costumers, You have all been so much fun about this robe. Particular thanks to: > From: "Shane & Sheridan" > > The easiest way for you to go here would be to use the garment construction > techniques of the cultures near India at the time. Rectangular construction, Ah, more great joy for me, and thanks to you! For I am a weaver by nature, and rectangular construction is my great, great love. ALL clothings should be constructed as much of rectangles and triangular gores as possible! Yes! I shall consult the many suggestions offered, also, and peer at many pictures. The V&A wrote me back, too, in the person of Rosemary Crill, Senior Curator, South Asia, Asian Department. This is what she said: > The sleeves are set in at the shoulders with a square seam (I apologise > for the terminology - I am not a dressmaker, so I don't know if this is > clear). > There are only straight side seams in the bodice, no shaping or other > seams. The back panel of the bodice is completely straight. As I'm sure > you can see from the picture, the front closes by passing across the > chest and is tied by lappets. There is a tie of green silk inside at the > waist to close the waist, but otherwise there are no fastenings. The > sleeves are very long and would have been worn wrinkled up to shorten > them to wrist length. > It is a typical male court garment called a jama, of the type used in > the 17th-19th century in north India, not for Western use. I will keep you posted on my progress. Thank you all again! Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 23:29:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i633T7RM008129 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:29:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633ROd5011999 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:27:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633RN4g055141; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:27:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633RI4g055085 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:27:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004070303271301300jcogle>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 03:27:13 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:26:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Fun! But what's it SUPPOSED to be? Is this the new Star Wars people? L. > From: "teawithablackdragon *" > > how about McCalls new costume pattern.. > > http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/mccallspatterns/shop.cgi?s.item.400004621 > =x&TI=40001&pageNum=6&M=&UK=32999093 > > wilhelmina _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 23:44:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i633iXRM008170 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:44:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633fUd5012750 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:41:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633fS4g061281; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:41:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633fO4g061235 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:41:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i634BY5c068622 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:11:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i634BYjw068621 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:11:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407030411.i634BYjw068621@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <000201c4607e$18aad090$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Does anyone knoe where this painting might be in a book or catalogue.? > > > > http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/products/?item_id=B000001Q75 > pe=AsinSearch&locale=us> &search_type=AsinSearch&locale=us > I don't have a color copy, but a B&W scan can be seen here ... I found this image in a book on Renaissance Portraits. > > According to the little booklet in the cd it comes from a Tryptich in the > town hall of Zierikzee. It says courtesy of Musees royaux des Beaux-Arts de > Belgique, Bruxelles, but I understand it may reside at the AMSTERDAM > Rijksmuseum. It is done by Master of the JOSEPH SEQUENCE > (Master of Affligem) They don't appear to have it online. I have the whole triptych (I think) but it's not on the server -- I can put it up if you'd like. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 23:47:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i633lwRM008182 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:47:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633lOd5013100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:47:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633lN4g063726; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:47:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633lM4g063719 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:47:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-68-164-169-228.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.169.228] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgbUo-0000nB-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 20:47:22 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> <008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 20:42:46 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Susy -- I just wanted to let you know that I'm working on putting together something rather horribly long and detailed and footnoted for you, but I won't get it finished until tomorrow. Didn't want you to think I'd lost interest in the question after finding out what the question actually was! Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 2 23:53:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i633rDRM008191 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:53:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633qcd5013334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:52:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633qb4g066044; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:52:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i633qY4g066013 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:52:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i634Ml5c068747 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:22:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i634Mlts068746 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:22:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407030422.i634Mlts068746@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Does anyone knoe where this painting might be in a book or catalogue.? > > > > http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/products/?item_id=B000001Q75 > > > pe=AsinSearch&locale=us> &search_type=AsinSearch&locale=us > > > > According to the little booklet in the cd it comes from a Tryptich in > > the town hall of Zierikzee. It says courtesy of Musees royaux des > > Beaux-Arts de Belgique, Bruxelles, but I understand it may reside at > > the AMSTERDAM Rijksmuseum. It is done by Master of the JOSEPH > > SEQUENCE (Master of Affligem) They don't appear to have it online. > > Saragrace, I can't get anything from that URL, even after cut-and-pasting. > Can you supply a better URL or a tinyurl? I have several reproductions of > paintings by the Joseph Sequence master, and may be able to point you to > the right book once I know which one you want. If you use the URL withing the <> it works ok. Wierd URL at that. It's Joanna the Mad, of Castile in her sideless surcoat. (of "Ruritanian Purple Feathers" fame.) Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 00:07:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6347jRM008226 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:07:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6345qd5014167 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:05:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6345n4g071915; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:05:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.193]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6345k4g071894 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:05:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from athurman@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 73so581rne for ; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.82.41 with SMTP id f41mr5363rnb; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d21ac1904070221057128771b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:05:37 -0400 From: "A. Thurman" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bjarne's back! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne - That apology and confession took some serious guts, and I commend you for it! Welcome back! Allison T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 00:31:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i634VHRM008272 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:31:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634Uid5015637 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:30:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634Ue4g083104; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:30:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net (starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.227]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634Ud4g083089 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:30:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.64.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.64] helo=HELENPINTO) by starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BgcAg-0000Y4-I8 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 21:30:39 -0700 Message-ID: <009301c460b6$75983440$40399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000201c4607e$18aad090$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another painting to find... Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:30:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef577c494e734930eeaf1556c19ae2ea87350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.64 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Your link doesn't take me to the CD cover. However, your info was useful. The two side panels of the triptych (the donors- Philip the Fair and Joan of Castile) are on-line; the central panel (the Last Judgement) is not, as far as I know. You can look them up on Web Gallery of Art http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/welcome.html and do an artist index look-up for the Master of the Joseph Legend. When his thumbnails come up, you can get a full page of info by clicking on the "i", with all the different citations. Click on the thumbnail and you get a full screen plus view, which can then be blown up 200%. I don't know of any books off-hand, but I'm really familiar with everything on Web Gallery of Art. I have looked at every single pre-1600 item building my list of paintings of books and related objects over the last month. (And seen some very cool clothes in the process.) Hope this helps, -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 00:45:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i634jSRM008305 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:45:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634gOd5016259 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:42:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634gM4g088105; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:42:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt6.ihug.co.nz (grunt6.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634gJ4g088000 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:42:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p2-nas15.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.206.130] by grunt6.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BgcLn-0005mP-00; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:42:08 +1200 Message-ID: <001d01c460b8$1a6dd0f0$82ceadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: dieting excuses Re: [h-cost] He's Back! Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:42:09 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > And thanks for the pics Nicole & Michaela, I always enjoy seeing what > you two have created. This year I have been particularly bad and sewn far too much for what I really should be doing;) But thanks:) ;) > Costume content; since it is the sewing peddle foot I am going to use > the time for handwork, hoping to get a lot of embroidery done on a > couple of shirts, and may even try handstitching one of them. This > weekend will be spent in prework :). Oooh excellent.. well ish;) I love my machine, and it's a super useful tool, but it can be nice to hand sew. Not sure if I really want to, but I may be doing some for my Valois undies;) Effigy corset (combined with the Dorothea corset), farthingale and shift... eeep. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 00:45:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i634jsRM008308 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:45:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634i7d5016361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:44:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634i64g088896; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:44:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts12.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.141]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634gg4g088240 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:42:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.5.40]) by simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040703044222.LYXG7058.simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:42:22 -0400 Message-ID: <014201c460b7$f06d67c0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:40:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lauren Walker" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A > Dear Costumers, > You have all been so much fun about this robe. Particular thanks to: > > > From: "Shane & Sheridan" > > > > The easiest way for you to go here would be to use the garment construction > > techniques of the cultures near India at the time. Rectangular construction, > > Ah, more great joy for me, and thanks to you! For I am a weaver by nature, > and rectangular construction is my great, great love. ALL clothings should > be constructed as much of rectangles and triangular gores as possible! Yes! > I shall consult the many suggestions offered, also, and peer at many > pictures. > The V&A wrote me back, too, in the person of Rosemary Crill, Senior Curator, > South Asia, Asian Department. This is what she said: > > > The sleeves are set in at the shoulders with a square seam (I apologise > > for the terminology - I am not a dressmaker, so I don't know if this is > > clear). > > There are only straight side seams in the bodice, no shaping or other > > seams. The back panel of the bodice is completely straight. As I'm sure > > you can see from the picture, the front closes by passing across the > > chest and is tied by lappets. There is a tie of green silk inside at the > > waist to close the waist, but otherwise there are no fastenings. The > > sleeves are very long and would have been worn wrinkled up to shorten > > them to wrist length. > > It is a typical male court garment called a jama, of the type used in > > the 17th-19th century in north India, not for Western use. > > I will keep you posted on my progress. > Thank you all again! > Lauren You're welcome! :-) I'm just glad that for once there was a post/question on this list that I actually knew something about, even just a little. :-) Have fun! Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 00:46:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i634kwRM008311 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:46:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634kRd5016521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:46:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634jp4g089660; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:45:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634iG4h088995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:44:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634n0WN020754 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:49:00 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i634n0fR020752 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:49:00 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:49:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200407030049.00538.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Friday 02 July 2004 03:07 pm, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave > you some time back. > It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about > this. I wish it never had happened. > I cant give you any excuses for the thing i did, but i want to give you an > explanation about what happened to me. The fact that you've realized that is the best apology you could give us. We've all missed you, and your wonderful work, Bjarne. I wouldn't presume to speak for everyone on the list (many of whom have expressed similar thoughts already) but you certainly have my encouragement and support. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 00:49:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i634nLRM008318 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:49:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634lbd5016605 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:47:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634la4g090387; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:47:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jade.spiritone.com (jade.spiritone.com [216.99.193.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i634jZ4h089575 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:45:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wandap@hevanet.com) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by jade.spiritone.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i634jYZ8011895 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:45:35 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sincere apologizes Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 21:52:32 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne, Welcome back to the land of the living. I thank my God frequently that I do not have an addiction (do books and fabric count?) problem. This is not because of some great strength in me, but by simple luck of the genetic draw and the grace of my parents. It could so easily have been otherwise. I hope you have really learned the most important lesson; that you cannot drink at all. It's the lesson some of my American Indian friends have had to learn, so you are by no means alone (for anyone annoyed by "Indian", it's what they call themselves, having a contempt for PC). Lets get on with things. Wanda Pease > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 01:47:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i635lrRM008477 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:47:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i635j0d5019908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:45:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i635iu4g014757; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:44:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i635ir4g014734 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:44:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20hj.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.51] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgdKW-0005OY-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:44:52 -0700 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040703002044.021f6ec0@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:27:35 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200407021236.i62Caiti080410@net.indra.com> References: <200407021236.i62Caiti080410@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bathing dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Teddy, Just be careful not to fall into the trap a friend of mine did - At Costume Con 12 (in Santa Clara, California, USA) some people had scheduled a Victorian Bathing party in the hotel pool/hot tub. Most of the bathers were women, but there was one gentleman. He had made a one-piece suit of striped black and white fabric, where the stripes were about 3" wide. (Kind of looked like a singlet and knickers, all in one piece - like long johns.) It looked fine when it was dry. He found out the hard way (after he got in the pool, then started to get out) that the fabric got nearly transparent when wet!! Hearty chuckles were had by all!!! (And I think he had to beg for a towel, so he could get 'out' of the pool.) Sandy >Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 10:40:04 +0100 >From: Teddy >Subject: Re: [h-cost] bathing dress > > > The picture below includes two men: > > http://www.capitolamuseum.org/SwimwearArticle.html > > Hope it's useful, > >Very useful. >Thanks!!! >Teddy "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 01:52:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i635qPRM008487 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:52:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i635pud5020249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:51:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i635pt4g017719; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:51:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i635ps4g017653 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:51:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gia_gavino@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.118 ([204.127.197.118]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20040703055148015003hjkje>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 05:51:48 +0000 Received: from [24.16.242.58] by 204.127.197.118; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 05:51:48 +0000 From: gia_gavino@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 05:51:48 +0000 Message-Id: <070320040551.4029.40E649740004C2D200000FBD2200750784010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Z2lhX2dhdmlub0Bjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oooh!! Oooh! Heather, (raising my hand) May I see it too? Please? I'm doing research in Celtic history et al and this be another wonderful thing to learn about, too! Emer (researchaholic) -------------- Original message -------------- > Susy -- I just wanted to let you know that I'm working on putting > together something rather horribly long and detailed and footnoted > for you, but I won't get it finished until tomorrow. > > Didn't want you to think I'd lost interest in the question after > finding out what the question actually was! > > Heather > -- > **** > Heather Rose Jones > heather.jones@earthlink.net > **** > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 03:43:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i637hCRM002068 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 03:43:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i637e6d5025439 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:40:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i637ds4g063826; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:39:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i637do4g063805 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 01:39:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from perronnelle@earthlink.net) Received: from user-12hc6s3.cable.mindspring.com ([69.22.27.131] helo=earthlink.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bgf7j-0000yD-00; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:39:47 -0700 Message-ID: <40E662C8.80105@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:39:52 -0500 From: Charlene Charette User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030312 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: H-Costume List , h-needlework list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Milan, Italy X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'll be in Milan for an afternoon this month. So basically I'm looking for suggestions on the *one* thing that's a must see. If it's costume-, needlework-, textile- related so much the better. Thanks, --Charlene -- Any event, once it has occurred, can be made to appear inevitable by a competent historian. --Lee Simonson _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 04:09:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6389nRM002437 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 04:09:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6387vd5026381 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:07:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6387t4g074376; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:07:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [213.165.64.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6387q4g074317 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 02:07:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cassandra@greer.de) Received: (qmail 20667 invoked by uid 65534); 3 Jul 2004 08:07:45 -0000 Received: from pD9E8E75C.dip.t-dialin.net (EHLO cassandr6a9wj0) (217.232.231.92) by mail.gmx.net (mp001) with SMTP; 03 Jul 2004 10:07:45 +0200 X-Authenticated: #13649924 From: "Cassandra Greer" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Anyone need a photo touched up? Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:27:26 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ok! Yes indeedy! It looks like for a few weeks I have enough (really cool) photos to work on! When my current ones are done, I'll let you all know when I can handle more! THANKS!!! Cass :) > > HI all! > > It's been forever since I have read anything on the list... Having a (very > cute cuddly well-behaved but nevertheless requiring much energy > on my side) > baby is quite distracting. I'm finally to a point where my brain > isn't quite > so mushy anymore and can actually take in some new information. > > To stimulate my brain cells I have chosen to take an intermediate > Photoshop > class online. One of the focuses is photo restoration - which I would like > to get better at. > > However I have no photos to restore. Sooooo I am wondering if any of you > have some vintage photos (esp if they have cool costumes ;) you don't mind > me playing with (or rather the scans thereof)? > > I have a DSL connection so sending me a large file would make it easier to > work on the photo. I can also make the finished product into > something that > will work on a website too. > > Let me know - I would like to have a couple to work on this weekend since > this is when I have time for a long while... > > Thanks in advance! > > Cass :) > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 08:11:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63CBURM003436 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:11:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63C9Zd5006231 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 06:09:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63C9R4g076651; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 06:09:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net (smtp1.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63C9O4h076582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 06:09:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3630BD8305 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 04034-06 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:09:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C2CFFD82EC for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <055401c460f6$134448c0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <200407030049.00538.cathy@thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:05:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > On Friday 02 July 2004 03:07 pm, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > > > I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave > > you some time back. > > It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about > > this. I wish it never had happened. > > I cant give you any excuses for the thing i did, but i want to give you an > > explanation about what happened to me. Alcoholism is a nasty disease. Welcome back Bjarne. Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 10:02:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63E2ORM003914 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:02:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63DxJd5010655 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:59:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63DxG4g020838; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:59:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i63DxD4g020752 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:59:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp03.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.123]) by smtpout04.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABAQPQ6UANNEEZA for (sender ); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 06:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27757 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2004 13:57:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.17.179) by smtp03.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2004 13:57:59 -0000 Message-ID: <008d01c46105$bf5bc610$b311bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com><008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:57:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 10:5:893142748 X-MAIL-INFO: 18bd3c00392dd9bdb839bc2c5849313cb52c753168b9b8317cbc85ad1cad11d8dcf518add991d928dd38e9dcc8dd591819dc91596568f8594d8988c58dc5e825ec1cacc56c456c150d5581ece50d08ac35ec45084911bc5cbcf5a995f5a9d8dda9d8dd492d41f9e1bd81488139750599ed81b91889691c69c59ca1c59c0dac9c0d X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55ofBkunIaN4kZ77zX0kBUW6Oodvh4VhT8GW X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks so much Heather! Horribly long, detailed, and footnoted sounds absolutely decadent! I can hardly wait to see what you've come up with! I appreciate the update, I know we've all got real lives too. Mine includes four kids from just graduated senior to just finished kindergarten. I squeeze me and my indulgences in where I can. Thanks again for your time! Susy > Susy -- I just wanted to let you know that I'm working on putting > together something rather horribly long and detailed and footnoted > for you, but I won't get it finished until tomorrow. > > Didn't want you to think I'd lost interest in the question after > finding out what the question actually was! > > Heather > -- > **** > Heather Rose Jones > heather.jones@earthlink.net > **** > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 10:51:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63EpuRM004203 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:51:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Emrd5013539 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:48:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Emo4g041980; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:48:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Emk4g041910 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:48:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f58.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.88]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id D277D5EE00D for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:48:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <008b01c4610c$d9c8bdd0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:48:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] From Bjarne X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi all you wonderfull people. You have ben a great support for me and i am so gratefull that you have accepted my apologises. Thanks for your kind words and all your consern. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 11:00:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63F0TRM004255 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:00:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63EvOd5014185 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:57:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63EvN4g045848; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:57:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net (cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63EvM4g045834 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:57:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-50-228.jps.net ([209.165.50.228] helo=KALC) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BglxB-0004GZ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 07:57:22 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] From Bjarne Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:57:17 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <008b01c4610c$d9c8bdd0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne, I think it would have been a huge loss for many people on many levels if we had not heard from you again. Welcome back and thank you for your apologies and honesty. Apology accepted. Lisa Sinervo -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:49 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] From Bjarne Hi all you wonderfull people. You have ben a great support for me and i am so gratefull that you have accepted my apologises. Thanks for your kind words and all your consern. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 11:09:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63F9mRM004318 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:09:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63F6jd5014772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:06:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63F6h4g050021; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:06:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f21.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.21]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63F6f4g049974 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:06:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:06:35 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 15:06:35 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 15:06:35 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2004 15:06:35.0910 (UTC) FILETIME=[55712A60:01C4610F] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Harry Potterish would be my guess. >From: Lauren Walker >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: Historical Costume >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A >Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:26:14 -0400 > >Fun! But what's it SUPPOSED to be? Is this the new Star Wars people? >L. > > > From: "teawithablackdragon *" > > > > how about McCalls new costume pattern.. > > > > >http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/mccallspatterns/shop.cgi?s.item.400004621 > > =x&TI=40001&pageNum=6&M=&UK=32999093 > > > > wilhelmina > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 11:13:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63FD8RM004329 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:13:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FB5d5014998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:11:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FAw4g051862; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:10:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FAu4g051846 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:10:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f58.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.88]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 33A3C5EE027 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:10:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <009301c4610f$f7f21e20$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:11:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] weddingdress and such X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have started costuming again. I got an order for a historical inspired weddingdress and i also was at a danish 1700 fair at Gammel Estrup Castle last weekend. It was particularly interessted for me to be confronted with the portrait i make the dress from, The original portrait is lented for the danish National Museum, but they had a big poster of the portrait. I found out that the sleaves not are made of plain transparent fabric, but it was actually lace. The historical inspired (dont kill me :-)) weddingdress has nothing whatsoever with history, except it has a real 18th century pannier for the skirt support. The bodice is boned and it is laced in the back, and it has long sleaves. The lady i make it for asked me about making it because she had seen all the costumes on my website. So it is her who has directed me in wich style she wanted. It is going to be sewed in gold and white and bronce coloured silk. Her wedding is the 24.th of july. I have made the model, i tryed it on her yesterday, and i did not have to change a thing. Ill start the real weddingdress next friday when i have the day off my job. 8 meters of silk is needed. I cartridge pleated the skirt wich has 4 hights of the fabric, and i made the pleats deeper at the hips to go out over the pannier. The 1700 market was fun, and i tryed to sleap at a castle from friday til sunday. No ghost were seen or heard, even though they say that Count Jřrgen Scheel is driving trough the gatehouse in the night in his carriage with four headless horses and a dog with a white neckerchief round its neck. The dog is to be a vikar who had done horrible things. It was mostly peassants and crafts /trades people. And the costumes that some of the museumpeople were wearing; a lord and his 2 daughters were rented and lousy. I think i want to make some nice costumes for them, because it was pretty bad to se them in those rented ones. There are some small pictures you can se of the castle and the market, if you click into my website. I was demonstrating my chenille embroidery there........ Many greetings from a lousy rainy summer in Denmark Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 11:28:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63FSNRM004367 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:28:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FLcd5015591 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:21:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FLb4g056961; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:21:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf14.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf14.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.214]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FLY4g056897 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:21:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joedr@charter.net) Received: from mxip08.cluster1.charter.net (mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.138]) by mxsf14.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i63FN6L5025559 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:23:06 -0400 Received: from 66.169.187.190.ts46v-16.otnh2.ftwrth.tx.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (66.169.187.190) by mxip08.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 03 Jul 2004 11:21:30 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.81R,146,1083556800"; d="scan'217,208"; a="85696992:sNHT15351800" Message-ID: <40E6CEF4.50E7A27@charter.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 10:21:24 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com><008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> <008d01c46105$bf5bc610$b311bc3f@susyhp> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Since I have an acute interest the celts of old, I would love to see this material, as well. May I have a piece of that pie? Slainte, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 11:31:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63FVrRM004382 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:31:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FSid5016004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:28:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FSh4g060162; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:28:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FSe4h060097 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:28:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i63FSZ79001858 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:28:39 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703082704.024c2678@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:28:32 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I find the scalloped hem of her bodice interesting. Has anybody seen this elsewhere? Katie At 01:23 AM 7/3/2004 +0000, you wrote: >...the only thing I could find was Master of the Joseph Legend is >http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/master/joseph/index.html.. >Wilhelmina _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 11:49:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63FnRRM004485 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:49:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FjCd5016761 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:45:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63FjA4g067317; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:45:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Fj84h067298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 09:45:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i63Fj879005286 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:45:10 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703083213.01f805c0@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:45:05 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance In-Reply-To: References: <000201c4607e$18aad090$6a01a8c0@SG01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Painting of Juana la Loca X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ah! Juana la Loca. I just got the movie (Mad Love in English) from Amazon. I had expected something morbid and self-pitying from the way the reviews had described it. Instead it has beautiful costumes and a good love story of wifely devotion. I commented to My Lord Husband that she was a tad bit, shall we say, compulsive and overwhelmingly single-minded and insanely jealous. His comment was that she was a good wife treated badly by a husband who was a cad and a useless wastrel unworthy of her love and that the only way that she was crazy was to be in love of such a useless, faithless cheating, conniving, etc. wretch of a man. Fortunately My Lord Husband is anything but a cad and a wastrel and is very much worthy of my love and adoration -- and I tell him so, too . Katie, who's just a tad bit 'loca' for her hubby and has zero reason to be jealous of any other woman . >This is the portrait of Joan the Mad, also called Jeanne la Folle, >wife of Philip the Fair (Phillipe la Beau). _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 12:43:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63Gh5RM004754 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:43:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63GfEd5019567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:41:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63GfB4g092606; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:41:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Gf94g092577 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:41:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i63HBK5c076204 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:11:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i63HBKAN076203 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:11:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407031711.i63HBKAN076203@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703082704.024c2678@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I find the scalloped hem of her bodice interesting. Has anybody seen this > elsewhere? > > Katie > > At 01:23 AM 7/3/2004 +0000, you wrote: > >...the only thing I could find was Master of the Joseph Legend is > >http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/master/joseph/index.html.. > >Wilhelmina I'm sure that Robin will know better than I, but I *think* it's supposed to be a sideless surcoat. I've seen this image used to justify a "plastron-front" bodice because you can't see the sides well enough to tell -- and it's (I think) wider than your usual sideless surcoat. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 13:13:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63HDWRM004846 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:13:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63HBid5021475 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:11:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63HBe4g006722; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:11:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63HBb4h006709 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:11:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63HGPWN022985 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:16:25 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i63HGOPQ022983 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:16:24 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] weddingdress and such Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:16:24 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <009301c4610f$f7f21e20$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <009301c4610f$f7f21e20$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200407031316.24111.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 03 July 2004 11:11 am, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > I have started costuming again. I got an order for a historical inspired > weddingdress and i also was at a danish 1700 fair at Gammel Estrup Castle > last weekend. It was particularly interessted for me to be confronted with > the portrait i make the dress from, The original portrait is lented for the > danish National Museum, but they had a big poster of the portrait. I found > out that the sleaves not are made of plain transparent fabric, but it was > actually lace. > The historical inspired (dont kill me :-)) weddingdress has nothing > whatsoever with history, except it has a real 18th century pannier for the > skirt support. The bodice is boned and it is laced in the back, and it has > long sleaves. The lady i make it for asked me about making it because she > had seen all the costumes on my website. So it is her who has directed me > in wich style she wanted. It is going to be sewed in gold and white and > bronce coloured silk. It sounds as though it will be beautiful. I look forward to seeing the pictures.... [snip] > Many greetings from a lousy rainy summer in Denmark Much sympathy; I hate wet summer weather too! -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 13:20:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63HKLRM004867 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:20:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63HHHd5021803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:17:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63HHG4g009284; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:17:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63HHE4g009262 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:17:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03307 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:20:40 -0500 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:20:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <200407031711.i63HBKAN076203@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > > I find the scalloped hem of her bodice interesting. Has anybody seen this > > elsewhere? > > I'm sure that Robin will know better than I, but I *think* it's > supposed to be a sideless surcoat. I've seen this image used to > justify a "plastron-front" bodice because you can't see the sides well > enough to tell -- and it's (I think) wider than your usual sideless > surcoat. In a good reproduction, you can clearly see the side of the underdress; the fur does not cover the torso completely. You can also see the curve of the edge of the body, with a darker sliver behind, defining the side of the figure and distinguishing it from the mantle lining. The exposed fabric on the torso is the same fabric as the sleeve. However, I would not take this as a representation of a real garment. There are elements all over this image (and her husband's) that make it clear these are iconic representations. Also, this is the late 1400s, long after the sideless surcote itself has gone out of regular wear and is only barely recollected as being traditional royal ceremonial wear. By this time, artists had been using the sideless surcote for decades as artistic code for "queen." Some people on this list have seen my lecture in which I trace the development of this style and its use in artwork; in that, I show a number of images -- there are many -- of symbolic "sideless surcotes" painted in the late 1400s in which it's quite clear that the artist has never seen one in wear, but is using the surcote iconography to indicate the status of the wearer. It is particularly evident in images of royal saints such as Catherine and Ursula and other figures who can be classified as historic queens/princesses. Frequently these later images are painting in the manner of current fashionable wear or silhouette, but with the characteristic surcote shape added in. Joan's is one of these. In addition to the form-fitting bodice area (which you can see, without the surcote plastron, in more realistic dress representations at this time), note the neckline shape, black filler pieces at the sides of the neckline, necklace, and headdress -- all fashion elements contemporary to the painter but not the surcote. Essentially the artist painted a current style with the surcote plastron grafted on top for its symbolic value. I would not expect that this particular dress ever existed, but if it did, and if Joan wore it in public, it would clearly be understood to be stage costume. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 13:48:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63HmIRM004952 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:48:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Hi7d5023325 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:44:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63HhU4g021014; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:43:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63HhS4g020968 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:43:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004070317432301300jcakke>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:43:23 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Anne of Denmark:was Electress of Saxony Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:41:23 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200407021951.i62JpTMl064948@sabre.goldsword.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO oh drool could you please send it? Molly I feel a reproduction comming on -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Susan Farmer Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 12:51 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Anne of Denmark:was Electress of Saxony > > Oh, darn. The picture that I had in mind was of Anne of Denmark. > > I keep hoping to find a color copy of that picture -- and then I saw > > that the original was in Dresden. *sigh* > > [Sg] Are you talking about the one where she is dressed in Black? this one out of Davenport. I think I've found a better copy to scan, though. > > > What does this picture look like? > [Sg] The Electress of Saxony is a full length, full bore, Cranach gown > complete with organ pipe pleats. I only have an illustration of it. Her > face looks rather pinched in it. I've got this one of Sybill of Cleves but it's not full length. The only other one that I have that *might* be it is Jerusha, the image pack-rat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 14:32:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63IW1RM005080 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:32:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63IUDd5026145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:30:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63IU54g043276; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:30:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63IU34h043258 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:30:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i63IU579011336 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:30:08 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 11:29:59 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: References: <200407031711.i63HBKAN076203@sabre.goldsword.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Are we talking about the same picture? I'm referring to Wings of an Altarpiece at http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/master/joseph/index.html I don't see any fur anywhere... even when blown up 200% Katie At 12:20 PM 7/3/2004 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > > > > I find the scalloped hem of her bodice interesting. Has anybody seen > this > > > elsewhere? > > > > I'm sure that Robin will know better than I, but I *think* it's > > supposed to be a sideless surcoat. I've seen this image used to > > justify a "plastron-front" bodice because you can't see the sides well > > enough to tell -- and it's (I think) wider than your usual sideless > > surcoat. > >In a good reproduction, you can clearly see the side of the underdress; >the fur does not cover the torso completely. You can also see the curve of >the edge of the body, with a darker sliver behind, defining the side of >the figure and distinguishing it from the mantle lining. The exposed >fabric on the torso is the same fabric as the sleeve. > >However, I would not take this as a representation of a real garment. >There are elements all over this image (and her husband's) that make it >clear these are iconic representations. Also, this is the late 1400s, long >after the sideless surcote itself has gone out of regular wear and is only >barely recollected as being traditional royal ceremonial wear. By this >time, artists had been using the sideless surcote for decades as artistic >code for "queen." Some people on this list have seen my lecture in which I >trace the development of this style and its use in artwork; in that, I >show a number of images -- there are many -- of symbolic "sideless >surcotes" painted in the late 1400s in which it's quite clear that the >artist has never seen one in wear, but is using the surcote iconography to >indicate the status of the wearer. It is particularly evident in images of >royal saints such as Catherine and Ursula and other figures who can be >classified as historic queens/princesses. > >Frequently these later images are painting in the manner of current >fashionable wear or silhouette, but with the characteristic surcote shape >added in. Joan's is one of these. In addition to the form-fitting bodice >area (which you can see, without the surcote plastron, in more realistic >dress representations at this time), note the neckline shape, black filler >pieces at the sides of the neckline, necklace, and headdress -- all >fashion elements contemporary to the painter but not the surcote. >Essentially the artist painted a current style with the surcote plastron >grafted on top for its symbolic value. I would not expect that this >particular dress ever existed, but if it did, and if Joan wore it in >public, it would clearly be understood to be stage costume. >--Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 14:48:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63ImURM005416 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:48:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63IkSd5026965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:46:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63IkO4g050987; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:46:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63IkM4g050969 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:46:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0268.dialsprint.net ([63.186.145.14]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgpWn-00073F-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:46:21 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:47:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] From Bjarne From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <008b01c4610c$d9c8bdd0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Let me add my voice to the chorus of welcome. I hadn't fully realized how much I look forward to your postings until they stopped coming. E-mail makes communication so easy, so spontaneous--but that's also one of its dangers, because we can so easily dash off a note and hit "send" before thinking--for one reason or another. I've just browsed through some of the responses to that posting of yours, and I suspect that some others on this list may regret the replies they posted at that time. Well, as my favorite writer wrote, "All's well that ends well." I welcome the endorsements of mutual goodwill and the return to mutual support on the historical costuming front! Good luck with that wedding gown--it sounds challenging and beautiful. Thanks also, by the way, Bjarne, for your advice (website reference) on costuming for Moliere's Tartuffe. We did some adaptations of our Country Wife costumes, made a couple of new things, and got everybody dressed in time for opening night (last night, whew!). I think we managed to at least suggest the time and place of the show, although we didn't have the time or resources to go fully accurate. Certainly everybody looked very pretty, and the audience was very appreciative. Eight performances to go! --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer on 7/3/04 10:48 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews at drewscph@post12.tele.dk wrote: > > Hi all you wonderfull people. > You have ben a great support for me and i am so gratefull that you have > accepted my apologises. Thanks for your kind words and all your consern. > > Bjarne > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 15:25:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63JPxRM005592 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:25:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63JNid5028811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:23:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63JNd4g068800; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:23:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63JNY4g068712 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:23:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f58.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.88]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F9B2262859 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:23:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003701c46133$45493af0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] From Bjarne Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:23:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear Ruth, Thanks a lot for your lovely warm email. Congratulations with the succes of Tartuffe, wished i could have ben there to watch! Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "ruthanne baumgartner" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] From Bjarne > Let me add my voice to the chorus of welcome. I hadn't fully realized how > much I look forward to your postings until they stopped coming. > > E-mail makes communication so easy, so spontaneous--but that's also one of > its dangers, because we can so easily dash off a note and hit "send" before > thinking--for one reason or another. I've just browsed through some of the > responses to that posting of yours, and I suspect that some others on this > list may regret the replies they posted at that time. > > Well, as my favorite writer wrote, "All's well that ends well." I welcome > the endorsements of mutual goodwill and the return to mutual support on the > historical costuming front! > > Good luck with that wedding gown--it sounds challenging and beautiful. > > Thanks also, by the way, Bjarne, for your advice (website reference) on > costuming for Moliere's Tartuffe. We did some adaptations of our Country > Wife costumes, made a couple of new things, and got everybody dressed in > time for opening night (last night, whew!). I think we managed to at least > suggest the time and place of the show, although we didn't have the time or > resources to go fully accurate. Certainly everybody looked very pretty, and > the audience was very appreciative. Eight performances to go! > > --Ruth Anne Baumgartner > scholar gypsy and amateur costumer > > > on 7/3/04 10:48 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews at drewscph@post12.tele.dk wrote: > > > > > Hi all you wonderfull people. > > You have ben a great support for me and i am so gratefull that you have > > accepted my apologises. Thanks for your kind words and all your consern. > > > > Bjarne > > > > > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 15:44:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63Ji1RM005710 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:44:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Jexd5029932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:40:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Jev4g077438; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:40:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from decna.com ([194.63.250.132]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Jet4h077337 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:40:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ingridgs@techarea.net) Received: from decna.com (decna.com [127.0.0.1]) by decna.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-3) with ESMTP id i63Jei6O015086 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:40:44 +0200 Received: from localhost (ingridgs@localhost) by decna.com (8.12.11/8.12.11/Debian-3) with ESMTP id i63JeiHB015081 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:40:44 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: decna.com: ingridgs owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:40:44 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ingrid_G=2E_Storr=F8?= X-X-Sender: ingridgs@decna.com To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> Message-ID: References: <200407031711.i63HBKAN076203@sabre.goldsword.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Decna-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > Are we talking about the same picture? I'm referring to Wings of an > Altarpiece at > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/master/joseph/index.html > > I don't see any fur anywhere... even when blown up 200% Both the lady and her husband are wearing furred mantles. Although it doesn't look like realistic fur, at least in this reproduction (I haven't seen a better one so I can't speak for that), you can see the ermine tails on it (which would often be faked with fur from lamb's legs in real life, by the way). And once you see that the mantle lining is fur, it's easier to see that the white on her torso is fur as well. :) Ingrid -- This email has been scanned for viruses & spam by Decna as - www.decna.no Denne E-post er sjekket for virus & spam av Decna as - www.decna.no _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 16:18:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63KIKRM005845 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:18:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63KCjd5001628 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:12:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63KCf4g092374; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:12:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from whowhere.com (in02-fes1.whowhere.com [209.202.220.218]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i63KCc4g092267 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:12:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@eudoramail.com) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by whowhere.com; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:12:17 -0000 To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 20:12:17 0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Priority: 3 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robe from V&A- Burhanpur X-Sender-Ip: 130.88.96.65 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, that isn't the problem, I was aware of that and working from various angles. The problem was, the flash seems to wash out some of the fine details. The colours also tend to be more true. Cheers, Danielle --------- Original Message --------- >> I've taken tons of photos in the V&A and they all turn out great unless my hand shakes...I have a digital camera and can turn my flash off, oddly enough, the photos with flash don't turn out as well. Mind you, the photos I have taken in the past with a non-digital camera have turned out very dark. > >If I had to guess -- the flash reflects off the glass -- you have to be >at an angle -- say 45 degrees when you use flash rather than straight >on -- otherwise the flash bounces right back to the camera. > >Jerusha Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 16:28:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63KSDRM005881 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:28:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63KOid5002137 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:24:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63KOh4g097533; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:24:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63KOf4g097510 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:24:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04526 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:28:07 -0500 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:28:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > Are we talking about the same picture? I'm referring to Wings of an > Altarpiece at > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/master/joseph/index.html > > I don't see any fur anywhere... even when blown up 200% The entire white portion of the "bodice" (the surcote plastron) is presumably intended to indicate a very fine ermine. That is, when the surcotes were actually worn in by queens in life, about a century earlier, this portion was covered with ermine, but in a rather different shape than shown in this picture. In this picture, the artist has painted the overall shape of a gown of his own day, but grafted on the outline of the surcote fur plastron shape (very obviously at the bottom, with the reverse point) directly over that silhouette. A real surcote would not have been so closely shaped as this. The artist almost certainly had never seen a real surcote and knew the image only from its customary use in art, where the surcote had long been used as artistic code for "queenly figure." It's anyone's guess whether he understood that the white section in the front was actually meant to be fur, though I think he was smart enough to have figured that out (since his rendering of the fur edgings/linings of the mantles and Philip's shoulder cape, is of a similar texture). It is unlikely that he understood the construction of the original surcote or how it would look in wear, but his goal was not to paint a real historical surcote; it was to present Joan using the iconographic image of the surcote, painted as though it were constructed in the manner of clothing of the current day. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 16:33:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63KXiRM005896 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:33:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63KXDd5002557 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:33:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63KXB4g001309; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:33:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63KX94h001271 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:33:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i63KXA79008233 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:33:12 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703130426.01ff2af0@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:33:03 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> <200407031711.i63HBKAN076203@sabre.goldsword.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Okay, I see the ermine lining of her mantle, identified by the tail-tips. I was looking for fur on the sideless surcoat, where it is typically at the neckline and armholes, where it most definitely is not. You are saying that the garment on her torso is the sideless surcoat instead of some sort of bodice? And that the fabric visible at her flanks are visible because of the cut of the sideless surcoat and and are not huge puffy sleeves? And that the sideless surcoat (not-bodice) is made of ermine without the tails? I thought sideless surcoats were floor length. That's why it looks like some strange sort of bodice with an unusual hem to me. And the fabric that causes the inward curves on her torso are just big puffy sleeves. The pattern on her right (our left) sleeve flows up to her shoulder as it would if it were a huge sleeve, not another part of the garment revealed by a sideless surcoat. One point about ermine. I have a hunk and was amazed to learn how fine the texture is. The fur is so dense and so short that it's almost like velvet. I have a couple tails, too, and they really are jet black on the tips and creamy-white everywhere else. I have dismantled some junk fur coats that I purchased from ebay to discover how they were constructed and I can see how a large expanse of ermine fur would look just like creamy-white velvet, as shown in the painting. Even the bodice could be a sheet of ermine fur, though I don't remember seeing any bodices like that. Juana la Loca became queen of Castile, one of the richest lands in Europe because of wealth brought back from the New World. Philip the Fair was heir to the Holy Roman Empire and their first son became Emperor Charles of the Holy Roman Empire. Their wealth would have been endless and I think that they could have afforded real ermine. The painting was done by a Flemish painter and the buildings in the background are typical of Flemish / Dutch upper-class architecture. The painting was done ca 1505, well into an era when separate bodices were common, further exemplified by the fact that the bodice (putative surcoat) overhangs the skirt. Thus I'm still not convinced that it's a sideless surcoat. I welcome more explanation to help me understand, really I do. Katie At 09:40 PM 7/3/2004 +0200, you wrote: >On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > > Are we talking about the same picture? I'm referring to Wings of an > > Altarpiece at > > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/master/joseph/index.html > > > > I don't see any fur anywhere... even when blown up 200% > >Both the lady and her husband are wearing furred mantles. Although it >doesn't look like realistic fur, at least in this reproduction (I >haven't seen a better one so I can't speak for that), you can see the >ermine tails on it (which would often be faked with fur from lamb's legs >in real life, by the way). And once you see that the mantle lining is >fur, it's easier to see that the white on her torso is fur as well. :) >Ingrid _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 16:39:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63KdGRM005905 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:39:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Kcid5002849 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:38:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Kch4g003721; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:38:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Kcg4g003696 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:38:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <200407032038330120001a6ce>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 20:38:33 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 16:37:35 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT, was Painting of Juana la Loca From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703083213.01f805c0@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Having once long ago been married to a cad and wastrel and etc., and been at least half-mad while there, it always does my heart good to hear a Good Husband rant against the failings of lesser men. For we must believe in Good Husbands to find them! This really seems like a weekend in which the list is counting its blessings! Lauren > From: Katie Pleasance > > Ah! Juana la Loca. I just got the movie (Mad Love in English) from Amazon. > I had expected something morbid and self-pitying from the way the reviews > had described it. Instead it has beautiful costumes and a good love story > of wifely devotion. > > I commented to My Lord Husband that she was a tad bit, shall we say, > compulsive and overwhelmingly single-minded and insanely jealous. His > comment was that she was a good wife treated badly by a husband who was a > cad and a useless wastrel unworthy of her love and that the only way that > she was crazy was to be in love of such a useless, faithless cheating, > conniving, etc. wretch of a man. Fortunately My Lord Husband is anything > but a cad and a wastrel and is very much worthy of my love and adoration -- > and I tell him so, too . > > Katie, who's just a tad bit 'loca' for her hubby and has zero reason to be > jealous of any other woman . > >> This is the portrait of Joan the Mad, also called Jeanne la Folle, >> wife of Philip the Fair (Phillipe la Beau). > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 16:44:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63KiZRM005943 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:44:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Kf4d5002924 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:41:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Kf44g004777; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:41:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Kf24h004725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:41:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i63Kf479009769 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:41:05 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703133523.01ff0d80@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:40:56 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Okay -- it's a bastardized hodge-podge of his fantasy of a surcote that has been kludged together using the aspects of the fashion/materials of his day, which he was familiar with, because he could only work with that which he knew about and the surcote as he painted it was his interpretation of how he imagined a sideless surcote might have been. I can accept that -- it sure doesn't look like any sideless surcote that I'm familiar with! Katie At 03:28 PM 7/3/2004 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > > > Are we talking about the same picture? I'm referring to Wings of an > > Altarpiece at > > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/m/master/joseph/index.html > > > > I don't see any fur anywhere... even when blown up 200% > >The entire white portion of the "bodice" (the surcote plastron) is >presumably intended to indicate a very fine ermine. That is, when the >surcotes were actually worn in by queens in life, about a century earlier, >this portion was covered with ermine, but in a rather different shape than >shown in this picture. In this picture, the artist has painted the overall >shape of a gown of his own day, but grafted on the outline of the surcote >fur plastron shape (very obviously at the bottom, with the reverse point) >directly over that silhouette. A real surcote would not have been so >closely shaped as this. > >The artist almost certainly had never seen a real surcote and knew the >image only from its customary use in art, where the surcote had long been >used as artistic code for "queenly figure." It's anyone's guess whether he >understood that the white section in the front was actually meant to be >fur, though I think he was smart enough to have figured that out (since >his rendering of the fur edgings/linings of the mantles and Philip's >shoulder cape, is of a similar texture). It is unlikely that he understood >the construction of the original surcote or how it would look in wear, but >his goal was not to paint a real historical surcote; it was to present >Joan using the iconographic image of the surcote, painted as though it >were constructed in the manner of clothing of the current day. >--Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 16:55:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63KtDRM005978 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:55:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63KqDd5003543 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:52:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Kq64g009780; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:52:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Kq24h009755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 14:52:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i63Kq779011986 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:52:08 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703134216.00ba91e8@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 13:51:59 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT, was Painting of Juana la Loca In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703083213.01f805c0@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO When it was time for me to re-marry after many single years, I sat m'self down and wrote up a looong list of what I wanted and didn't want in a husband, identifying aspects that were unacceptable, undesirable but acceptable, neutral, desirable but okay if he lacked them, and mandatory. Then I started acting as my own match-maker -- determining where I would meet a man that met my specifications and what I would have to do in order go 'catch' him. And sure enough I did. He's a geek, but loving. No sense of romance, but absolutely dedicated. Refuses to dance, but is willing to wear a 'dress' (T-tunic) to SCA events because it pleases me. Very much the Man of the Family, but he welcomes the responsibility to take care of me that comes with such status. There *ARE* good men out there. I've got one. There have to be others. Obligatory costume content -- He wants an Elizabethan outfit like Lord Wessex wore in his 'duel' with Shakespeare inside the theater in the movie "Shakespeare in Love". It's going to be a couple years before I'm skilled enough to tackle that project . Katie At 04:37 PM 7/3/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Having once long ago been married to a cad and wastrel and etc., and been at >least half-mad while there, it always does my heart good to hear a Good >Husband rant against the failings of lesser men. For we must believe in Good >Husbands to find them! >This really seems like a weekend in which the list is counting its >blessings! > >Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 17:20:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63LKlRM006064 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:20:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LIrd5005160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:18:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LIp4g021670; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:18:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LIm4g021617 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:18:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gia_gavino@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.119 ([204.127.197.119]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20040703211842015003if6ve>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:18:42 +0000 Received: from [24.16.242.58] by 204.127.197.119; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:18:41 +0000 From: gia_gavino@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tudor was OT Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:18:41 +0000 Message-Id: <070320042118.3607.40E722B0000DF4F000000E172200761438010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Z2lhX2dhdmlub0Bjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO *Oh!* Well, that explains a few things that worried me in my own life. I'm not crazy. I *was* crazy when in the incredibly disastrous most recent relationships. Now that my pain levels have gotten within reasonable levels, I might be able to wear the tudors I want to make now. I used to create italian ren gowns, but now I've changed my personna to Irish (England) I'm looking forward to experimenting with a new fashion besides the simple rectangular construction I'll be doing. The fabrics I've not sold are perfect for what I want to do! Emer/Gia -------------- Original message -------------- > Having once long ago been married to a cad and wastrel and etc., and been at > least half-mad while there, it always does my heart good to hear a Good > Husband rant against the failings of lesser men. For we must believe in Good > Husbands to find them! > This really seems like a weekend in which the list is counting its > blessings! > > > comment was that she was a good wife treated badly by a husband who was a > > cad and a useless wastrel unworthy of her love and that the only way that > > she was crazy was to be in love of such a useless, faithless cheating, > > conniving, etc. wretch of a man. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 17:22:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63LMXRM006068 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:22:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LKkd5005297 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:20:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LKk4g022724; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:20:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LJf4h022103 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:19:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i63LJj79018062 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:19:47 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703141512.02175c40@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:19:37 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703130426.01ff2af0@mail.katiesorchids.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> <200407031711.i63HBKAN076203@sabre.goldsword.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Correction of sorts - floor length in toto but sometimes divided into a bodice-section ending at the hip/upper thigh and a long skirt-section that puddles on the floor. In this picture of Juana la Loca, this could be the case. Katie I had written: >I thought sideless surcoats were floor length. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 17:46:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63LkSRM006162 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:46:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LiYd5006547 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:44:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LiT4g033004; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:44:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from secure4.netll.com (secure4.netll.com [208.38.152.40]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LiP4h032953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:44:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lithiate@secure4.netll.com) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.34) id 1BgsJD-0007WY-W9 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 17:44:32 -0400 From: "Sarah Lorraine" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT, was Painting of Juana la Loca X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.26 X-IPAddress: 69.105.85.214 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 17:44:31 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >There *ARE* good men out there. I've got one. There have to be others. >>For we must believe in Good >>Husbands to find them! >>This really seems like a weekend in which the list is counting its >>blessings! Yep, there are definitely good men out there, and what's more: They know other good men, too. Ones that love playing dress-up almost more than I do, in fact. Mine loves Nudie suits more than 16th c. doublets, true, but he's hip to ren faires and won't question insane fabric purchases... Even the ones that put me on the brink of debt. Just so long as I don't raise a stink about his musical instrument purchases. ;) I identified heavily with Juana la Loca, even before the movie came out. She was a smart woman, obsessed with the wrong guy and believe me, it can happen to the best of us. Only, thankfully we now live in a society where there are better options for us than there were for 16th c. Spanish royalty. And now for the costume content: While vacationing in Santa Barbara last week (CA, of course), my husband dragged me into a vintage clothing store off State St. that sold almost exclusively vintage men's snap-front western shirts (which happens to be one of his biggest weaknesses, the wanna be rhinestone cowboy that he is). As is always the case, we were obliged to ask the store owners if they had any Nudie suits. Of course the didn't, but they did bring out a beautiful western suit c.1976, made from white wool and red and blue appliqué', encrusted with embroidery and rhinestones. I got to fondle it. It wasn't a Nudie or a Manuel but it was neat to get an up-close look at the way it was made (machine embroidery, from the looks of it, in chain stitch) For those who aren't hip to the whole rhinestone cowboy suit phenomena of early country music and then adopted by rock 'n roll in the 60's and 70's, Nudie was a Russian immigrant who settled in L.A. and opened up a tailoring business that catered to the likes of country music legends such as Buck Owens, Rose Maddox, Merle Haggard, etc. His rhinestone western suits are legendary, picked up by Elvis, and later by such rock 'n roll pioneers like Gram Parsons, the Byrds, the Stones, you name it, if it had rhinestones and was being worn by a musician, Nudie probably made it. His apprentice/partner, Manuel, still makes the same types of suits for a select group of clientele. Anyway, my husband is obsessed with Nudie suits. When he first met me and found out I was a costumer, he begged me to make him one. In the off-chance that anyone is interested in learning about this bit of Americana, there are two fabulous books on the subject, How The West Was Worn by Holly George-Warren, and Hillbilly Hollywood by Debbie Bull. Also, the only place that I know of that has a large collection of Nudies on display to the general public is Buck Owen's Crystal Palace restaurant in Bakersfield, CA. Some of Buck's outfits are featured in both books, but it was a real treat to be able to see them in person last time we were down there. They really are works of art. :) Can I do obligatory costume content or what? LOL! Sarah http://www.modehistorique.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 17:49:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63LnNRM006174 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:49:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LkKd5006656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:46:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LkJ4g033814; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:46:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Lik4g033148 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:44:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B442C488 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:44:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p178.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.216.180]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D4CBDC590 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:44:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:44:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703134216.00ba91e8@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan was: OT, was Painting of Juana la Loca X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- Obligatory costume content -- He wants an Elizabethan outfit like Lord Wessex wore in his 'duel' with Shakespeare inside the theater in the movie "Shakespeare in Love". It's going to be a couple years before I'm skilled enough to tackle that project . Katie There are at least 2 men's elizabethan patterns out there. Margo Anderson's is the one I remember off the top of my head as I hear a lot of good about the patterns. You can have a look on her website, Just google Margo Anderson's patterns and go from there. Alter Years Fantasy Fashions (?) De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 17:49:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63LnlRM006178 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:49:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Lm4d5006827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:48:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Lm44g034581; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:48:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.228]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Lki4g034051 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:46:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.21.240.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.21.240] helo=HELENPINTO) by mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BgsLL-0001P5-2o for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 14:46:43 -0700 Message-ID: <009101c46147$37b9c3f0$f0159b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com><200407031711.i63HBKAN076203@sabre.goldsword.com><5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20040703130426.01ff2af0@mail.katiesorchids.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another painting to find... Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:46:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9efb3c73ef8ffe7311a3ff8daca750b1408350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.21.240 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here's my two cents in support of the artistic rendition of the sideless surcoat- if you look at her left side, there is brocade there in a matching pattern to the sleeve. This is her ribcage, not her arm, which is further back under the cloak. You can see the line of the arm and the elbow in the cloak; they are standing away from the body. Also, the skirt of the surcoat is a different color and pattern than the sleeves. This is a second layer. The plastron looks textured to me, too. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 18:01:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63M1KRM006210 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:01:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LwId5007537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:58:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LwG4g038975; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:58:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63LwC4g038943 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:58:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05099 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:01:40 -0500 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:01:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703133523.01ff0d80@mail.katiesorchids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > Okay -- it's a bastardized hodge-podge of his fantasy of a surcote > that has been kludged together using the aspects of the > fashion/materials of his day, which he was familiar with, because he > could only work with that which he knew about and the surcote as he > painted it was his interpretation of how he imagined a sideless > surcote might have been. Yes! Exactly! That's why it doesn't look quite like a surcote, but like something inspired by the surcote shape from earlier art, translated through multiple artists on the way. A small point in response to your preceding note, about the fabric on her side, under her left arm: A good reproduction will show that about 3/4 of the vertical space is the gold brocade fabric seen on the sleeve; however, to the far right of that area is a wedge of shadow that is not brocaded. The brocaded area follows the line of the waist/torso curve. So we are indeed looking at the side of her body, not the upper arm of the sleeve. The upper arm is hidden completely behind the mantle. If you blow up the Web Gallery image to 200% you might be able to make this out. It's very clear in my hardcopy reproduction. On her right sleeve (our left) we do see lots of sleeve fabric, no torso, in the brocade. > I can accept that -- it sure doesn't look like any sideless surcote > that I'm familiar with! The neckline is way off base, as is the body shape. However, your other post indicated you would have expected the fur to be only at the armholes. That style was indeed common in the years in which the surcote was worn, but as the surcote became a royal garment, the center front area between the armholes eventually tended to be completely filled with a fur plastron. Often the armhole-edge fur bands remained distinct, but sometimes they did not. Here are some views of royal surcotes from the early 1400s, when the style was probably in actual wear; all have the full front fur piece: http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i2_0063.jpg http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000115 http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000098 http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000107 http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100014&I=000013 Over time, as the style receded from public view and personal experience of the artist, the shape of the plastron mutated in artworks. Here's an example of one that has a stronger link with reality than Joan the Mad's surcote, but still shows some elements of later modification (particularly the inset at the neckline and the style of the underdress sleeves): http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/l/p-legend1.htm The surcote is by this point part of the traditional depiction of St. Ursula, who was a princess, so the artist would have used it for that reason. Note that the bodice area is solid fur without distinctive bands at the armhole, and the bottom of the fur has that reverse point you also see on Joan's, which appears to be a holdover from the shape of the two curved portions in the original style. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 18:17:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63MHdRM006271 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:17:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MH4d5008976 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:17:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MH14g047505; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:17:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MGw4h047457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:16:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i63MH079031359 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:17:02 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703150942.0211c878@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 15:16:52 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703133523.01ff0d80@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm Convinced! Even at 200%, I cannot see what you are referring to on her left side that is not sleeve. Maybe if I set my monitor resolution higher, it would show ... But your URLs certainly show the changes over time. Too bad my hunk of ermine is only about a foot square and I only have 2 tails. But I do have several junk white fox coats that I could shear the guard hairs off of. Voila! A sorta-allegorical fur pseudo-sideless surcote! Thank you. This has been a fascinating thread and *very* educational. Katie At 05:01 PM 7/3/2004 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > > > Okay -- it's a bastardized hodge-podge of his fantasy of a surcote > > that has been kludged together using the aspects of the > > fashion/materials of his day, which he was familiar with, because he > > could only work with that which he knew about and the surcote as he > > painted it was his interpretation of how he imagined a sideless > > surcote might have been. > >Yes! Exactly! That's why it doesn't look quite like a surcote, but like >something inspired by the surcote shape from earlier art, translated >through multiple artists on the way. > >A small point in response to your preceding note, about the fabric on her >side, under her left arm: A good reproduction will show that about 3/4 of >the vertical space is the gold brocade fabric seen on the sleeve; however, >to the far right of that area is a wedge of shadow that is not brocaded. >The brocaded area follows the line of the waist/torso curve. So we are >indeed looking at the side of her body, not the upper arm of the sleeve. >The upper arm is hidden completely behind the mantle. If you blow up the >Web Gallery image to 200% you might be able to make this out. It's very >clear in my hardcopy reproduction. On her right sleeve (our left) we do >see lots of sleeve fabric, no torso, in the brocade. > > > I can accept that -- it sure doesn't look like any sideless surcote > > that I'm familiar with! > >The neckline is way off base, as is the body shape. However, your other >post indicated you would have expected the fur to be only at the armholes. >That style was indeed common in the years in which the surcote was worn, >but as the surcote became a royal garment, the center front area between >the armholes eventually tended to be completely filled with a fur >plastron. Often the armhole-edge fur bands remained distinct, but >sometimes they did not. Here are some views of royal surcotes from the >early 1400s, when the style was probably in actual wear; all have the full >front fur piece: >http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i2_0063.jpg >http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000115 >http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000098 >http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000107 >http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100014&I=000013 >Over time, as the style receded from public view and personal experience >of the artist, the shape of the plastron mutated in artworks. Here's an >example of one that has a stronger link with reality than Joan the Mad's >surcote, but still shows some elements of later modification (particularly >the inset at the neckline and the style of the underdress sleeves): >http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/l/p-legend1.htm >The surcote is by this point part of the traditional depiction of St. >Ursula, who was a princess, so the artist would have used it for that >reason. Note that the bodice area is solid fur without distinctive bands >at the armhole, and the bottom of the fur has that reverse point you also >see on Joan's, which appears to be a holdover from the shape of the two >curved portions in the original style. >--Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 18:31:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63MV2RM006305 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:31:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MUZd5009701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:30:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MUY4g053378; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:30:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MUU4g053334 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:30:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1e3.2458e365 (4116) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:30:23 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <1e3.2458e365.2e188d7f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:30:23 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] weddingdress and such To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/3/2004 11:11:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: I have started costuming again. Let me add my hearty "Welcome Back." I sometimes tell people who are considering signing up for this list that it is worth it just to see what you are doing. Ann _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 18:31:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63MVRRM006309 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:31:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MSSd5009612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:28:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MSQ4g052496; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:28:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MSN4h052473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:28:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i63MSS79001185 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:28:30 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703151808.0211c728@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 15:28:19 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <009101c46147$37b9c3f0$f0159b04@HELENPINTO> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> <200407031711.i63HBKAN076203@sabre.goldsword.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20040703112508.02023d70@mail.katiesorchids.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20040703130426.01ff2af0@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, because it is a painting in 3/4 profile, we can see the sleeve between the mantle and her body on her right side. On her left side, what I had taken to be a big hunk of upper sleeve would be the torso of her gown, because the sleeve would be hidden behind the mantle. Yes, her sleeves would be part of the gown and the skirt puddling on the ground would hang from behind the hem of the surcote. I had interpreted the texturing on the plastron to be visual artifacts created by the computer in the scan/compress/display process. What looks somewhat like corduroy wales could be the vertical seaming of the narrow pieces of ermine pelt that have been sewn together. My piece of ermine is a rectangle formed of a multitude of very narrow strips of pelt. This has been fun! Katie At 05:46 PM 7/3/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Here's my two cents in support of the artistic rendition of the sideless >surcoat- if you look at her left side, there is brocade there in a matching >pattern to the sleeve. This is her ribcage, not her arm, which is further >back under the cloak. You can see the line of the arm and the elbow in the >cloak; they are standing away from the body. >Also, the skirt of the surcoat is a different color and pattern than the >sleeves. This is a second layer. >The plastron looks textured to me, too. > -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 18:34:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63MY0RM006319 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:34:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MWHd5009778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:32:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MWG4g054142; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:32:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (imo-m21.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63MUp4g053496 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:30:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1e8.24708dd4 (4116) for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:30:41 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <1e8.24708dd4.2e188d91@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:30:41 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] weddingdress and such To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/3/2004 11:11:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: I have started costuming again. Whoops--that last post is from me, Ann Wass. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 18:39:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63MdgRM006333 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:39:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Mbxd5010046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:37:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Mbw4g056465; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:37:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63Mbv4g056424 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:37:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20040703223751011009q9rte>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:37:51 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 18:36:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another painting to find... From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703151808.0211c728@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Speaking of counting blessings, sometimes it just makes me happy to be where people say, "plastron". Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 19:36:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63NaKRM006535 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 19:36:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63NYWd5012807 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:34:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63NYT4g079633; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:34:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ens9.eatel.net (ens9.eatel.net [209.124.203.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i63NYS4g079582 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:34:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mamarose@eatel.net) Received: (qmail 28418 invoked by uid 89); 3 Jul 2004 23:34:20 -0000 Received: from ip-209-124-255-176.dynamic.eatel.net (HELO eatel.net) (209.124.255.176) by 0 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2004 23:34:20 -0000 Message-ID: <40E75E1B.7050408@eatel.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 18:32:11 -0700 From: Margaret User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >There are at least 2 men's elizabethan patterns out there. >Margo Anderson's is the one I remember off the top of my head as I hear a >lot of good about the patterns. You can have a look on her website, Just >google Margo Anderson's patterns and go from there. >Alter Years >Fantasy Fashions (?) > > Oh, I cannot pass up this opportunity to brag about my favorite patterns. Margo's patterns http://margospatterns.com/ are some of the best I've ever seen. The instruction manual alone is worth the price. Alter Years and Fantasy Fashions both have good men's patterns, at a reasonable price, but with no where near the info. I made the outfit for King James of the Louisiana Ren Faire, and it came together like a dream. And to show how crazy I am, I just scaled down the men's shirt pattern for my 6 year old. By all means, check them out. Margaret Rose -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 19:39:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i63NdIRM006544 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 19:39:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63NaId5012888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:36:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63NaI4g080320; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:36:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i63NYg4g079676 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 17:34:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from ches (c-67-163-111-88.client.comcast.net[67.163.111.88]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004070323343701300jbtnke>; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:34:37 +0000 Message-ID: <016801c46156$4df12eb0$586fa343@ches> From: "Chiara" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan was: OT, was Painting of Juana la Loca Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 18:29:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Definitely go with Margo's, there really is no comparison to what hers offers for men specifically. Chiara ----- Original Message ----- From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 4:44 PM Subject: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan was: OT, was Painting of Juana la Loca : : : -----Original Message----- : Obligatory costume content -- He wants an Elizabethan outfit like Lord : Wessex wore in his 'duel' with Shakespeare inside the theater in the movie : "Shakespeare in Love". It's going to be a couple years before I'm skilled : enough to tackle that project . : : Katie : : There are at least 2 men's elizabethan patterns out there. : Margo Anderson's is the one I remember off the top of my head as I hear a : lot of good about the patterns. You can have a look on her website, Just : google Margo Anderson's patterns and go from there. : Alter Years : Fantasy Fashions (?) : : De : : : _______________________________________________ : h-costume mailing list : h-costume@mail.indra.com : http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 3 21:18:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i641IKRM006756 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:18:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i641FHd5017749 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 19:15:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i641FA4g019886; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 19:15:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i641F84g019868 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 19:15:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-68-164-169-228.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.169.228] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bgvb1-0006Kl-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 03 Jul 2004 18:15:08 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40E6CEF4.50E7A27@charter.net> References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com><008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> <008d01c46105$bf5bc610$b311bc3f@susyhp> <40E6CEF4.50E7A27@charter.net> Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:05:35 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:21 AM -0500 7/3/04, Joe Robertson wrote: >Since I have an acute interest the celts of old, I would love to see >this material, as well. May I have a piece of that pie? Hey -- I _was_ planning to post it here. Don't panic guys! Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 00:22:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i644MvRM008457 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 00:22:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i644Kud5027561 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:20:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i644Kn4g096509; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:20:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f44.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.94]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i644Kk4g096423 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:20:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:20:41 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.20 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 04:20:41 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.20] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 23:20:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jul 2004 04:20:41.0557 (UTC) FILETIME=[4475F050:01C4617E] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: From Bjarne X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" >Hi all you wonderfull people. >You have ben a great support for me and i am so gratefull that you have >accepted my apologises. Thanks for your kind words and all your consern. I know this is a little late - but I'm mostly off-line this week and so am mostly just lurking. Having done more than a few unforgivably stupid things under the influence of alcohol (not to mention doing stupid things perfectly sober :) ), I'm the last person who should be condemning anyone else for not thinking clearly before acting. And so I don't. These things happen. The best thing seems to be accepting that it happened and moving on. What are you working on, costuming wise, lately? Marc (I'm trying to get this stupid shoe book written, myself, and it's driving me nuts) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Life Events gives you the tips and tools to handle the turning points in your life. http://lifeevents.msn.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 00:26:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i644QQRM008483 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 00:26:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i644NPd5027723 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:23:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i644NO4g097536; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:23:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i644M44g096985 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:22:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m72.in-tch.com [216.166.191.72]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i643vWg02955 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:57:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40E786D4.5060102@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 22:25:56 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT, was Painting of Juana la Loca References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm glad you clarified that...I was thinking "nudie" in a WHOLE different direction! ;-D --sue Sarah Lorraine wrote: > For those who aren't hip to the whole rhinestone cowboy suit phenomena of early country > music and then adopted by rock 'n roll in the 60's and 70's, Nudie was a Russian immigrant > who settled in L.A. and opened up a tailoring business that catered to the likes of country > music legends such as Buck Owens, Rose Maddox, Merle Haggard, etc. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 00:56:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i644uvRM008543 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 00:56:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i644t8d5029965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:55:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i644t64g010741; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:55:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.182]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i644t44g010731 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 22:55:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net) Received: from unknown (HELO lazear1) (cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net@67.118.230.145 with login) by smtp803.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2004 04:55:04 -0000 Message-ID: <00af01c46183$14074f90$91e67643@lazear1> From: "Cabbage Rose Costumes" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 21:55:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne I must join in to say welcome back. There was a time in my life when intoxication and stupidity went hand in hand and I'm sure many folks in days gone by are probably owed apologies. We've all made mistakes. I admire your honesty and am a HUGE fan of your work --- which here at H-cost is far more important than one thoughtless comment. All is forgiven in my book. angela +++++ Angela F. Lazear Cabbage Rose Costumes www.cabbagerosecostumes.com Theatrical Costume Design "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none: be able for thine enemy rather in power than use, and keep thy friend under thy own life's key: be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..." W. Shakespeare ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: [h-cost] sincere apologises > Hello, > Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. > I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave > you some time back. > It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about > this. I wish it never had happened. > I cant give you any excuses for the thing i did, but i want to give you an > explanation about what happened to me. > I am an alcoholic, and i am so much ashamed and sorry for this. It is a > kronic thing, and i will never be cured for it. > Sometimes when i have not ben drinking for a long time, i think that i am > cured again and that i can drink again. This happened to me, and i started > to drink. After 3 days, my brain was totally alcoholised and i wrote that > email to the list :-( I cant explain why i did it, because i have many > great friends in America, and i dont have that oppinion at all. > But please accept my sincere apollogises to you all, i promise it will not > happend again. > I am sober again, and i think that i now know, that there is no return, i > simply must stop drinking again. > I know that it is hard for you to read about my problems, but it was only > because i wanted to explain what had happened to me. > I have missed you soo much, and i look forwards to read all your posts again > > Many greetings > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 01:54:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i645sZRM008687 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 01:54:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i645qdd5003485 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:52:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i645qZ4g034051; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:52:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz [210.86.15.146]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i645qX4g034001 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 2004 23:52:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from g.trussardi@xtra.co.nz) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.156]) by mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20040704055227.GWH2212.mta203-rme.xtra.co.nz@mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz> for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:52:27 +1200 Received: from TRUSSARDI ([219.88.28.224]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20040704055225.VRZL21194.mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz@TRUSSARDI> for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:52:25 +1200 From: "Gabriella Trussardi" To: Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:52:26 +1200 Message-ID: <000001c4618b$16048580$e01c58db@TRUSSARDI> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] intro X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi all, I thought I'd better introduce myself instead of just lurking and learning. I'm gabriella, and I live in Auckland New Zealand. I work part time as a costume technician for theatre (mainly fabric painting, printing, stenciling, foiling etc) while I'm doing my M.A. in art & design. I'd like to run my own creative team eventually, but there's very limited live theatre in New Zealand so it's a tiny industry to be involved in. I love reading all your posts and appreciate all your links, especially as our galleries and museums don't have as many original paintings and prints as you may have access to. Anyway, I too am happy to have found a place where people say "plastron", and while I won't post much (because I'm just a learner), I really appreciate everyone sharing all this amazing knowledge. *waves* gabriella trussardi _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 04:47:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i648lQRM017111 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 04:47:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i648iJd5013359 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:44:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i648i74g001111; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:44:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt9.ihug.co.nz (grunt9.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i648i44g000990 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:44:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p101-nas5.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.209.101] by grunt9.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bh2bF-0002n6-00; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 20:43:50 +1200 Message-ID: <001401c461a3$08e9a570$65d1adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c4618b$16048580$e01c58db@TRUSSARDI> Subject: Re: [h-cost] intro Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 20:43:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings Gabriella, I'm in Auckland NZ too, and have only recently rejoined this list. I was here for... oooh... 3 yeras before then? I can't remember. Life has been a bit of a roller coaster these last few years;) > I'm gabriella, and I live in Auckland New Zealand. I work part time as a > costume technician for theatre (mainly fabric painting, printing, > stenciling, foiling etc) while I'm doing my M.A. in art & design. What theatre's:)? I haven't been to much in the city recently haveing been rather involved in my own play at Waitemata Theatre, which I partially costumed as well;) http://costumes.glittersweet.com/historical/bella.htm http://costumes.glittersweet.com/historical/dolman.htm As well as guiding the direction of the other costumes in the play:) > like to run my own creative team eventually, but there's very limited > live theatre in New Zealand so it's a tiny industry to be involved in. Well mostly because it's all very in house from what I've seen;) Wellignton would be a better place. It's got a lot of theatre happening all the time, and is all rtaher closer together. In Auckland theatre's are spead so far out from one another... no wonder seasons don't last long.. > love reading all your posts and appreciate all your links, especially as > our galleries and museums don't have as many original paintings and > prints as you may have access to. I was astonished when I visited the V&A, the Louvre, Danish National Museum, Tate.. National Gallery, National Portrait Gallery... Ehem.. the point is yes we don't have very many historic works of art of Western culture here. There are some nice ones though... hehehe, the crazy portrait of one of Charles II mistresses is groovy. The artist really didn't get proportions right or understood much about clothing;) I'll be in Wellington for the Armageddon expo and entering the costume contest (I won the Auckland one two years in a row;) ) and will be making a concerted effort to get to the library again and maybe the University libraries and Te Papa again. There may be some lovely painting in there that piques interest:) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 05:10:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i649A0RM017183 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 05:10:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6497ud5014367 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 03:07:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6497s4g010552; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 03:07:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6497r4g010536 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 03:07:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-68-164-169-228.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.169.228] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bh2yW-00056s-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 02:07:52 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> <008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 02:03:41 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6497r4g010536 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 12:49 PM -0400 7/1/04, Susy wrote: >I am becoming involved with a living history group recreating, as best we >can, late bronze/early iron age celtic culture. >Anywho, although I love the idea of a funeral pyre as a grand send off, it >hasn't left much evidence behind for the rest of us. Perhaps that has >something to do with choosing to recreate late bronze/early iron age. To >the best of my understanding that would be the Hallstatt culture. I have >seen images and info on the Danish finds including the tube dress as well as >a string skirt. But I didn't want to make a leap, just because of time >period. I have also found a number of things referring to Viking dress >construction as well as stitches, embroidery, etc. Viking material is farther away from Hallstadt than we are from the Vikings. As I noted previously, the Danish Bronze Age material that I currently have date information on falls around the 14th century BCE. (This includes the "string skirts".) The Huldremose peplos-garment is ascribed in my sources to the 1st century CE. So throwing the whole lot here together, we're looking at items from a time span of two and a half millennia. I'm belaboring this a little because there's always a hazard, when trying to work with fragmentary early material, to cast too wide a net simply because the fish are so few and so small. The surviving garments we have from the span mentioned above show enormous differences in style and construction between different time/place-points (yet when we have multiple items from the same rough time/place, as with the Danish Bronze Age burials, we see significant internal consistency). What I take from this is that clothing evidence from a significantly different time-period or culture from what one is researching is little or no help. Other evidence can give evidence about the sorts of things that cloth is capable of doing, and the sorts of things that occur to humans to do with it -- but even that can be misleading. >If you have reference suggestions for the Hallstatt or La Tene culture I >would be delighted. Looking back I seem to be getting some conflicting info >on the exact time frame we are to be recreating. Unfortunately some things >say late bronze and some refer to shortly before the Roman conquest of >northern Europe. Now I must get some more details from the organizers of >the group because that is a huge time span. But perhaps that is of little >significance to dress. I notice that in another response you mention that the group in question is Clan Preachain. I've bumped into a few of them the couple of times I've been to Pennsic, and the vague impression I got was that they were doing a rather generic and generalized "pan-Celtica" -- anything from Hallstadt up through first millennium CE Ireland. But this was only a passing impression and I don't think I got an actual description of the group's scope from anyone. (This is also not particularly recent experience.) It's possible that you're getting a fuzzy notion of what time-period the group covers because the group covers a fuzzy time-period. Or the theoretic scope may be more specific but people are simply pulling from a wider range to have more to work with. And it's possible that you'll run into people in the group who sincerely believe that there's an identifiable "Celtic costume" that remains constant over the millennium or so from Hallstadt through the end of La Tene. (As a researcher, I'm always skeptical of any reconstructions that hypothesize a culture was stagnant simply because we have gaps in the record.) Or it may simply be an effect of the "but we have to wear _something_" phenomenon. At any rate, I'll focus on the Hallstadt material, just to have some clear boundaries for the discussion. Even at that, during the Hallstadt period, the material culture (and in the later parts, references by classical authors) places Celts or Celtic-influenced cultures all across Europe from the Atlantic coast to the Balkans and from central Germany south to cross the Alps. Within that scope, there must have been many local variations in culture and clothing. But if we focus not broadly on "Hallstadt" as a culture, but on the specific archaeological sites that define the core of our understanding, then we may be able to whittle it down to something manageable. These belong to the Hallstadt C & D sub-periods, covering approximately 800-450 BCE and lie in a region more or less in the center of continental Europe, running from Bohemia in the east to Burgundy in the west, from just north of the Alps to the beginnings of the Rhine and Elbe in the north. Hallstadt itself falls towards the eastern end of this region. Hochdorf (which supplies some very nice textile evidence) falls in the northern part of the middle. And Vix (which includes a rather nice woman's burial) towards the western end. I'm going to start off with a bibliography of general resources, then move on to descriptions. This is mostly taken from my own library, although when there are key sources that I haven't laid hands on yet, I include them as well. For general background: Audouze, Francoise & Olivier Buchsenschutz. 1992. Towns, Villages, and Countryside of Celtic Europe. Indiana University Press, Bloomington & Indianapolis. ISBN 0-253-31082-2 Although this is primarily about structural archaeology, it includes a number of useful time-lines and maps, as well as general background on the types of artifacts that archaeologists may deal with. Haywood, John. 2001. Atlas of the Celtic World. Thames & Hudson, London. ISBN 0-500-05109-7 Extremely useful for getting a grounding in all the time and space issues. Rankin, David. 1987. Celts and the Classical World. Routledge, New York. ISBN 0-415-15090-6 Much more on La Tene than Hallstadt, since it primarily covers descriptions of the Celts by classical authors. Kruta, V. et al. 1991. Celts. Rizzoli, New York. ISBN 0-8478-1407-6 Thick glossy book put together for a museum exhibition in Venice. (This is much more extensive than your typical "museum catalog" publication -- 700 pages and multiple color photos on most of them.) The majority of the coverage is La Tene, but it also gives a detailed survey of the Hallstadt-era sites and major finds. Birkhan, Helmut. 1999. Celts: Images of their culture. Verlag der Osterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Vienna. ISBN 3-7001-2814-2 Another thick, glossy book with many color plates. Similar but thinner coverage to Kruta et al. An unfortunate fondness for using modern "historic paintings" of Celtic subjects, and relatively non-rigorous artistic reconstructions, of which one should be extremely skeptical. Less text than Kruta et al. -- this book was intended to accompany a separate text volume ("Kelten: Versuch einer Gesamtdarstellung ihrer Kulture / Celts: a general survey of their culture", Vienna 1997). Cunliffe, Barry. 1986. Celtic World. Greenwich House, New York. ISBN 0-517-61533-9 A relatively shallow "coffee table" book, but with a fair number of pictures. As previously noted, there's a fair amount of useful information on early textiles in Elizabeth Barber's "Prehistoric Textiles", although only a few pages relate directly to Hallstadt finds. Primarily useful for the discussion of weave types and color patterns. HALLSTADT / DÜRRNBERG / HALLEIN Lying at the eastern end of our focal area, in modern day Austria, and dating primarily to the 7-6th centuries BCE. The extensive cemetery at Hallstadt was discovered in 1846 by Johann Ramsauer, the manager of a local salt mine -- a man of miraculous sense and talent, who turned amateur archaeologist and created extensive descriptions of the finds in situ, as well as painting watercolors of the most important finds and graves. (I haven't identified any published collection of his material, although individual plates show up in various of the survey works.) Along with chance finds in the salt mines themselves, these constitute more "ordinary man" artifacts than the later, richer grave sites. Examination of the descriptions and pictures will provide useful evidence of the position of clothing fasteners, belts, etc., but I only have access to a few small reproductions. A mine at Dürrnberg gives up a perfectly preserved calf-skin shoe. It's in the "hide shoe" style: roughly a rectangle of leather, slightly rounded at the toe, with the square end sewn together to form the heel and holes cut in the edges around the rest of the opening that are laced together to hold it on the foot. There's another similar shoe and at least two styles of leather/fur hat, as well as a rather fascinating backpack (presumably for carrying the mined salt). One source notes that "more than a hundred fragments of fabric" have been found in Hallstadt-era salt mines. The include a variety of weave types (both tabby and twill) and include some color patterns of a checkered type, as well as evidence of shaping by cutting and sewing. We evidently missed one opportunity for even better knowledge of the clothing: in 1734 the complete body of a probably 4th c. BCE miner was found, complete with clothing. Unfortunately he was reburied in the local cemetery and has presumably decomposed since then. (Similar finds were also recorded in 1576 and 1616.) There are black and white photos of one of the hats and the backpack in: Piggott, Stuart. 1965. Ancient Europe from the beginnings of Agriculture. Aldine Pub. Co., Chicago. There's an article specifically on the backpack, with details of a reconstruction, in: Kremer, Albert. 1982. "Tragkiepe aus dem Bergwerk von Hallstatt: Beobacht" in J Rom Ger Zentralmus Main: 23/24:250-253. Hans-Jürgen Hundt has an extensive series of technical articles on the salt mine textiles. They're in German, but do include photos of the items, and diagrams of weaves and seams found in the pieces. These articles include: Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1960. "Vorgeschichtliche Gewebe aus dem Hallstatter Salzberg" in J Rom Ger Zentralmus Main: 6:66-100. Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1960. "Vorgeschichtliche Gewebe aus dem Hallstatter Salzberg" in J Rom Ger Zentralmus Main: 7:126-150. (Includes a couple of pieces that are clearly cut and shaped by sewing.) Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1961. "Neunzehn Textilreste aus dem Durrnberg in Hallein" in J Rom Ger Zentralmus Main: 8:7-25. Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1967. "Vorgeschichtliche Gewebe aus dem Hallstatter Salzberg" in J Rom Ger Zentralmus Main: 14:38-65. Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1987. "Vorgeschichtliche Gewebe aus dem Hallstatter Salzberg" in Jahrbuch Rom Ger Zentralm: 34:261-286. See also: Klose, Olivier. 1926. "Buntes Gewebe aus dem prahistorischen Salzbergwerk" in Mitteilungen der Anthropologie: 56:346-350. HOHMICHELE Grave IV is useful, not having been robbed like many of the others. It housed a man and a woman, both with bronze fibulae interpreted as clothing fasteners. The woman had a long necklace of glass and amber beads that appears to have been wound around the neck several times. There are bronze belt mounts associated with the man. Associated with the woman, there was a fragment of woolen cloth decorated with silk thread. Banck-Burgess (see under Hochdorf) has detailed photos, diagrams, and reconstructions of this cloth fragment. Hundt (1962) has a discussion of what the textile finds from the various Hohmichele graves tell us about the structure the clothing. I haven't worked through it completely, but see some notes below. Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1969. "Uber Vorgeschichtliche Seidenfunde" in Jahrbuch Rom Ger Zentralm: 16:59-65. Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1962. "Textilreste aus dem Hohmichele" in Der Hohmichele - ein Fürstengrabhügel der späten Hallstattzeit bei der Heuneburg: 199-214 (pl.25-44). Various notes on the clothing from this article include: All likely clothing pieces of wool 2/2 twill. A fragment sewn to a tablet-woven band is likely from clothing rather than grave furnishings. The twill fragment is cut along the edge sewn to the band and folded over at the seam, rather than sewn by a selvedge. Described in the original report, but not preserved, was a 11.5 cm wide fringed belt, decorated with strips of gold. (While this description could indicate several possibilities, based on the presence of tablet-woven bands, and comparing with a strip of gold from another site that shows the effects of having been brocading, I'd consider a combination of the two a likely interpretation here.) The grave also includes a braid of human hair, dressed with a greasy substance that also colors it red. (There is some discussion there about whether this was an everyday hairstyle or a special "hair offering". But I'm missing some of the context for the discussion.) Specifically regarding the woman's grave (grave VI), he suggests that the lack of textile fragments from the upper region of the body doesn't necessarily indicate that she was buried with the upper body unclothed (there appears to be some discussion of differential water damage in the grave). The most famous textile from this grave -- the one decorated with silk -- was found on the inner side of the left thigh. Hundt suggests it represents the lower (hem?) portion of a mid-thigh-length over-tunic. (He continues with a description of the silk decoration, which is better understood by finding one of the reconstructions.) He speculates that the decorations continued on the upper part of this garment. On the left hip of the woman is a three-strand braid (with approximately 6-8 threads per strand) that may have served as a belt. A small piece of tablet weaving around the ankle region is suggested to be a hem band of an ankle-length garment (presumably worn under the decorated garment). And a piece of 2:2 twill found between the legs is suggested as the fabric for this garment. Around calf height there's a (technical description -- I think it may indicate a slightly matted or fulled fabric) piece that is also represented in other layers. He suggests it may be a fragment of a warm cloak that the body lay on. At any rate, it must be some layer different from the garment edged with the tablet-woven band. Possible clues are offered by a male grave where the belt plaques lie over two different layers of thick 2:2 wool twill, one of which corresponds to a textile with red stripes found around knee-level. He suggests we have striped hose (showing up both at the knee and waist) and a tunic over that (showing up only at the waist). (Hundt then goes into a long discussion of verifying that the decorative threads really are silk, and various possible trade routes by which they might have arrived, and the possibility that this is wild bombyx silk rather than "true" silk.) HOCHDORF A rich site for textiles, although in the usual fragmentary state. To confuse the issue, the grave chamber itself was decorated with textiles, which were pinned to the walls with fibulae. Textiles associated with the body of the man include at least some gold thread decorations. There was a belt covered in gold leaf (and so presumably leather), but only the fastening remains. He also wore leather shoes decorated with thin sheets of gold, and the shape of the decorations can give us a guess at the now-disintegrated shoes. He also wore a conical hat made of birch bark. (A good example of the sort of artifact it would be hard to interpolate if we didn't actually have it!) Banck-Burgess, Johanna. 1999. Hochdorf IV: Die Textilfunde aus dem späthallstattzeitlichen Fürstengrab von Eberdingen-Hochdorf (Kreis Ludwigsburg) und weitere Grabtextilien aus Hallstatt- und latčnezeitlichen Kulturgruppen. Konrad Theiss Verlag, Stuttgart. ISBN 3-8062-1453-0 This book is well worth tracking down, even if you're hopeless in German. (There's a brief summary in English at the end.) The title translates: "Hochdorf IV: The textile finds from the late Hallstadt era princely grave of Eberdingen-Hochdorf and other grave textiles from Hallstadt and La Tene era culture groups." I bought it from David Brown/Oxbow and it's apparently still in print. Be aware that some of the textiles covered in this book are decidedly _not_ La Tene. E.g., there are extensive diagrams and reconstructions of a decorated cloth from Irgenhausen that my other sources identify as Neolithic. Examples of Hallstadt tablet-woven bands, both in colors and with metallic brocading (the "metal thread" items mentioned under several sites). Includes modern reconstructions and pattern instructions. Complete catalog of the Hochdorf textiles (including grave furnishings). Extensive catalog of other sites with textile remains. Unfortunately the Hochdorf textiles are in such small and scattered fragments that they tell us nothing about the cut and construction of the clothing involved, and only a little about its layering relative to the body. But for the decorative possibilities, this is invaluable. See also: Biel, J. 1981. "Late Hallstatt Chieftain's Grave at Hochdorf" in Antiquity: 55:16-18 + plates. But this is a preliminary report and includes few figures or photos. VIX The so-called "princess of Vix" represents the later and western end of the scope covered here. This is a rich woman's grave with many imported Mediterranean goods as well as "native" items. The excavation report is: Joffroy, R. 1979. Vix et ses trésors. Paris. I haven't seen this publication myself, unfortunately. The woman had several neck ornaments: a bulky torque-like item, two described just as "necklaces", and a string of beads made from amber, diorite, and serpentine. There were 8 small fibulae decorated with coral that are interpreted as dress fasteners, but I can't find a description of their layout. She also wore bracelets and an anklet. SUMMARY We have a good idea of the types of weaves and colors available, as well as several decorative techniques and a surprising amount of information on constructional sewing. A detailed look at the placement of garment fasteners in the graves could give some information on garment structure, but this doesn't seem to be something normally covered in the literature, and it won't give definitive answers. Hundt, at least, offers some suggestions based on the distribution of textiles in the graves, although his speculations strike me as involving preconceived theories of what garments are probably involved (possibly based on artistic examples like those discussed below). We have vastly more information on accessories: jewelry, belts, and even a few hats and shoes. It would be nice to interpolate from the clothing shown on human figures in art of the time, but these are relatively few, often highly stylized, or on imported goods that can't be relied on to reflect Celtic styles. Kruta et al. have a short discussion of some of the earliest exceptions to this general dearth, although they fall more in the "early La Tene" period than "late Hallstadt". A 5th c. BCE style of fibula includes stylized human heads. Male heads typically sport moustaches, and sometimes a beard as well. One whole male figure from Bohemia has stylistic similarities to Etruscan work and sports short trousers and pointed shoes (according to Kruta et al., although I don't think I'd interpret the representation as trousers -- it isn't clearly bifurcated, and simply consists of a couple bands of decoration around the hip and thigh area). Another 5th c. BCE fibula from Dürrnberg shows full-length somewhat baggy trousers and a relatively short front-opening jacket/vest/shirt/???. An engraved bronze scabbard from Hallstadt has a sequence of warriors on foot and horseback. All are wearing ankle-high, pointed shoes. The riders appear to have horizontal stripes on their legs, suggested some sort of striped trousers. They also wear an upper garment or garments. In at least one case, it appears to be a (sleeveless?) tunic, possibly somewhat loose based on vertical lines that may indicate folds, and belted at the waist. On other figures, there is a different pattern above the belt, possibly indicating some sort of breast-plate, while below the belt a short (thigh-length) section with vertical lines presumably represents a (sleeveless?) tunic worn under it. The riders appear to wear close-fitting caps/helmets with a chin strap, while the footmen appear to have none (but have a somewhat bowl-shaped haircut). The body clothing, if any, of the footmen is hidden behind large oval shields. Two pairs of possible divine figures flanking the martial scene have similar clothing, but here the upper-body garment appears to be cut away to the back (i.e., longer in the back than front, or perhaps open at the front?). A 5th c. BCE fibula from the Vienna area is shaped like a shoe with an upcurved point, similar to those worn by the above figures. The only female figures I've seen from this era are the supporters on the bronze couch in the Hochdorf tomb, and while they appear to have markings indicating jewelry, they are otherwise nude. At any rate, as I said earlier, a whole lot of fragments, and not all that much confidence in what they fit together to form. Any actual outfit is going to require extrapolation and guesswork, but you can certainly end up with something "not inconsistent with the evidence". Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 07:02:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64B2wRM021787 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:02:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64B2Rd5021116 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 05:02:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64B2J4g052727; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 05:02:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64B2G4g052678 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 05:02:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.148.2d8488af (3657) for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:02:04 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <148.2d8488af.2e193dac@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:02:04 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] intro To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/4/2004 1:53:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, g.trussardi@xtra.co.nz writes: (mainly fabric painting, printing, stenciling, foiling etc) Don't be modest. Sounds to me like with those skills you could potentially have something to share. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 11:48:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64FmhRM022608 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:48:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64Fm5d5009033 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:48:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64Flv4g058725; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:47:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.119]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64Flt4g058699 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:47:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-40-146.jps.net ([209.165.40.146] helo=KALC) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bh9Dd-0004ha-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 08:47:54 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] intro Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:47:46 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000001c4618b$16048580$e01c58db@TRUSSARDI> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Welcome to the list Gabriella! Lisa Sinervo -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Gabriella Trussardi Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 10:52 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] intro Hi all, I thought I'd better introduce myself instead of just lurking and learning. I'm gabriella, and I live in Auckland New Zealand. I work part time as a costume technician for theatre (mainly fabric painting, printing, stenciling, foiling etc) while I'm doing my M.A. in art & design. I'd like to run my own creative team eventually, but there's very limited live theatre in New Zealand so it's a tiny industry to be involved in. I love reading all your posts and appreciate all your links, especially as our galleries and museums don't have as many original paintings and prints as you may have access to. Anyway, I too am happy to have found a place where people say "plastron", and while I won't post much (because I'm just a learner), I really appreciate everyone sharing all this amazing knowledge. *waves* gabriella trussardi _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 11:53:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64FrNRM022621 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:53:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64Fq3d5009240 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:52:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64Fq34g060391; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:52:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.119]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64Fq14g060383 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:52:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-40-146.jps.net ([209.165.40.146] helo=KALC) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bh9Hc-0005Ie-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 08:52:01 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:51:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000001c4618b$16048580$e01c58db@TRUSSARDI> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] bias neck band X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Last night I attached a cut on the grain blackwork band to a raglan sleeve style chemise and as I suspected the results were less than desireable. The band had too much fabric to lie flat so I ripped it out (can now testify to the superiority of scalpes for stitch removal) and am re-doing it with a bias cut blackwork band. I'm quite sure too now to that the wider embroidered curved neckbands must be made of curved fabric. Wish I could come across some documentation for this!!! Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 13:20:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64HKARM022885 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:20:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64HJdd5014592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:19:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64HJZ4g098034; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:19:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ens9.eatel.net (ens9.eatel.net [209.124.203.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i64HJW4g097994 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:19:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mamarose@eatel.net) Received: (qmail 4020 invoked by uid 89); 4 Jul 2004 17:19:27 -0000 Received: from ip-209-124-255-176.dynamic.eatel.net (HELO eatel.net) (209.124.255.176) by 0 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2004 17:19:27 -0000 Message-ID: <40E857BA.1080402@eatel.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:17:14 -0700 From: Margaret User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <000001c4618b$16048580$e01c58db@TRUSSARDI> <001401c461a3$08e9a570$65d1adcb@michaela> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Crazy Mistress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Ehem.. the point is yes we don't have very many historic works of art of >Western culture here. There are some nice ones though... hehehe, the crazy >portrait of one of Charles II mistresses is groovy. The artist really didn't >get proportions right or understood much about clothing;) > Crazy Mistress? OK, now this one I have to see. You wouldn't happen to have a copy of that, would you? Margaret Rose -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 13:23:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64HNFRM022904 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:23:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64HLUd5014719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:21:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64HLU4g098843; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:21:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.228]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64HLT4g098831 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:21:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from camelothorse@earthlink.net) Message-Id: <200407041721.i64HLT4g098831@net.indra.com> Received: from dialup-4.231.157.190.dial1.houston1.level3.net ([4.231.157.190] helo=camelot01) by mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BhAgC-0006CO-9k for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 10:21:29 -0700 From: "Diane Maynard" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sincere apologizes Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:21:50 -0500 Organization: Camelot Horse Center MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Thread-Index: AcRgZ+ou9nZkOiBUS8mas02LIDOBkABgs3zg X-ELNK-Trace: 7d3e56efc2551607917237dadff7bf594d2b10475b571120376c93421a88b7d594e302cc56439fe2a9844eea947902c9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.231.157.190 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear Bjarne, I did not respond when you gave your insult because it seemed so unlike you. Now, I would like to say welcome back and thank you for the lovely apology. I think by the number of posts that have been sent that you should know that not only do we love your work but, you are well loved by the people on this list. Good to have you back ! Diane -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:08 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] sincere apologises Hello, Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave you some time back. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 14:11:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64IBgRM023376 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:11:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64I9Wd5017370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:09:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64I9U4g021754; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:09:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i64I9R4g021688 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:09:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp04.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.124]) by smtpout05.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABAQST8TAWQCXJA for (sender ); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8602 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2004 18:08:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.17.72) by smtp04.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2004 18:08:24 -0000 Message-ID: <003b01c461f1$e5d487e0$4811bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com><008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:08:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 16:8:3323213409 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55ofVYa3BSLP3o5hhATzlM43qUFuiT211ZHK X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Heather, thank you so much for all the info. I wish I could peruse your personal library! Your collection is enviable. I will start to locate the sources you suggest immediately. Thanks also for all the time and effort you put into to info you shared. Do you still attend Pennsic? I will be attending this year for the first time with Preachain. Hence, my deep interest in the details of authentic garments. I would be delighted to get to meet you in person if you will be there. It is encouraging to meet others who are as well versed in this subject matter as you are. I delight in learning. I believe you are correct in your assessment of the fuzzy time frame issue. I think the time period covered by the group may be fuzzy. However, I do have a contact who has a degree in Celtic Studies within in the group, and I think it is she who I will discuss details with as soon as I get the email situation straightened out. Thanks again for all your invaluable information! Susy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather Rose Jones" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 5:03 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts > At 12:49 PM -0400 7/1/04, Susy wrote: > > >I am becoming involved with a living history group recreating, as best we > >can, late bronze/early iron age celtic culture. > > > > >Anywho, although I love the idea of a funeral pyre as a grand send off, it > >hasn't left much evidence behind for the rest of us. Perhaps that has > >something to do with choosing to recreate late bronze/early iron age. To > >the best of my understanding that would be the Hallstatt culture. I have > >seen images and info on the Danish finds including the tube dress as well as > >a string skirt. But I didn't want to make a leap, just because of time > >period. I have also found a number of things referring to Viking dress > >construction as well as stitches, embroidery, etc. > > > Viking material is farther away from Hallstadt > than we are from the Vikings. As I noted > previously, the Danish Bronze Age material that I > currently have date information on falls around > the 14th century BCE. (This includes the > "string skirts".) The Huldremose peplos-garment > is ascribed in my sources to the 1st century CE. > So throwing the whole lot here together, we're > looking at items from a time span of two and a > half millennia. I'm belaboring this a little > because there's always a hazard, when trying to > work with fragmentary early material, to cast too > wide a net simply because the fish are so few and > so small. The surviving garments we have from > the span mentioned above show enormous > differences in style and construction between > different time/place-points (yet when we have > multiple items from the same rough time/place, as > with the Danish Bronze Age burials, we see > significant internal consistency). What I take > from this is that clothing evidence from a > significantly different time-period or culture > from what one is researching is little or no > help. Other evidence can give evidence about the > sorts of things that cloth is capable of doing, > and the sorts of things that occur to humans to > do with it -- but even that can be misleading. > > > >If you have reference suggestions for the Hallstatt or La Tene culture I > >would be delighted. Looking back I seem to be getting some conflicting info > >on the exact time frame we are to be recreating. Unfortunately some things > >say late bronze and some refer to shortly before the Roman conquest of > >northern Europe. Now I must get some more details from the organizers of > >the group because that is a huge time span. But perhaps that is of little > >significance to dress. > > I notice that in another response you mention > that the group in question is Clan Preachain. > I've bumped into a few of them the couple of > times I've been to Pennsic, and the vague > impression I got was that they were doing a > rather generic and generalized "pan-Celtica" -- > anything from Hallstadt up through first > millennium CE Ireland. But this was only a > passing impression and I don't think I got an > actual description of the group's scope from > anyone. (This is also not particularly recent > experience.) It's possible that you're getting a > fuzzy notion of what time-period the group covers > because the group covers a fuzzy time-period. Or > the theoretic scope may be more specific but > people are simply pulling from a wider range to > have more to work with. And it's possible that > you'll run into people in the group who sincerely > believe that there's an identifiable "Celtic > costume" that remains constant over the > millennium or so from Hallstadt through the end > of La Tene. (As a researcher, I'm always > skeptical of any reconstructions that hypothesize > a culture was stagnant simply because we have > gaps in the record.) Or it may simply be an > effect of the "but we have to wear _something_" > phenomenon. > > At any rate, I'll focus on the Hallstadt > material, just to have some clear boundaries for > the discussion. Even at that, during the > Hallstadt period, the material culture (and in > the later parts, references by classical authors) > places Celts or Celtic-influenced cultures all > across Europe from the Atlantic coast to the > Balkans and from central Germany south to cross > the Alps. Within that scope, there must have > been many local variations in culture and > clothing. But if we focus not broadly on > "Hallstadt" as a culture, but on the specific > archaeological sites that define the core of our > understanding, then we may be able to whittle it > down to something manageable. These belong to > the Hallstadt C & D sub-periods, covering > approximately 800-450 BCE and lie in a region > more or less in the center of continental Europe, > running from Bohemia in the east to Burgundy in > the west, from just north of the Alps to the > beginnings of the Rhine and Elbe in the north. > Hallstadt itself falls towards the eastern end of > this region. Hochdorf (which supplies some very > nice textile evidence) falls in the northern part > of the middle. And Vix (which includes a rather > nice woman's burial) towards the western end. > > I'm going to start off with a bibliography of > general resources, then move on to descriptions. > This is mostly taken from my own library, > although when there are key sources that I > haven't laid hands on yet, I include them as well. > > For general background: > > Audouze, Francoise & Olivier Buchsenschutz. > 1992. Towns, Villages, and Countryside of Celtic > Europe. Indiana University Press, Bloomington & > Indianapolis. ISBN 0-253-31082-2 > > Although this is primarily about structural > archaeology, it includes a number of useful > time-lines and maps, as well as general > background on the types of artifacts that > archaeologists may deal with. > > Haywood, John. 2001. Atlas of the Celtic World. > Thames & Hudson, London. ISBN 0-500-05109-7 > > Extremely useful for getting a grounding in all the time and space issues. > > Rankin, David. 1987. Celts and the Classical > World. Routledge, New York. ISBN 0-415-15090-6 > > Much more on La Tene than Hallstadt, since it > primarily covers descriptions of the Celts by > classical authors. > > Kruta, V. et al. 1991. Celts. Rizzoli, New York. ISBN 0-8478-1407-6 > > Thick glossy book put together for a museum > exhibition in Venice. (This is much more > extensive than your typical "museum catalog" > publication -- 700 pages and multiple color > photos on most of them.) The majority of the > coverage is La Tene, but it also gives a detailed > survey of the Hallstadt-era sites and major finds. > > Birkhan, Helmut. 1999. Celts: Images of their > culture. Verlag der Osterreichischen Akademie > der Wissenschaften, Vienna. ISBN 3-7001-2814-2 > > Another thick, glossy book with many color > plates. Similar but thinner coverage to Kruta et > al. An unfortunate fondness for using modern > "historic paintings" of Celtic subjects, and > relatively non-rigorous artistic reconstructions, > of which one should be extremely skeptical. Less > text than Kruta et al. -- this book was intended > to accompany a separate text volume ("Kelten: > Versuch einer Gesamtdarstellung ihrer Kulture / > Celts: a general survey of their culture", Vienna > 1997). > > Cunliffe, Barry. 1986. Celtic World. Greenwich > House, New York. ISBN 0-517-61533-9 > > A relatively shallow "coffee table" book, but with a fair number of pictures. > > As previously noted, there's a fair amount of > useful information on early textiles in Elizabeth > Barber's "Prehistoric Textiles", although only a > few pages relate directly to Hallstadt finds. > Primarily useful for the discussion of weave > types and color patterns. > > > HALLSTADT / DÜRRNBERG / HALLEIN > > Lying at the eastern end of our focal area, in > modern day Austria, and dating primarily to the > 7-6th centuries BCE. The extensive cemetery at > Hallstadt was discovered in 1846 by Johann > Ramsauer, the manager of a local salt mine -- a > man of miraculous sense and talent, who turned > amateur archaeologist and created extensive > descriptions of the finds in situ, as well as > painting watercolors of the most important finds > and graves. (I haven't identified any published > collection of his material, although individual > plates show up in various of the survey works.) > Along with chance finds in the salt mines > themselves, these constitute more "ordinary man" > artifacts than the later, richer grave sites. > Examination of the descriptions and pictures will > provide useful evidence of the position of > clothing fasteners, belts, etc., but I only have > access to a few small reproductions. > > A mine at Dürrnberg gives up a perfectly > preserved calf-skin shoe. It's in the "hide > shoe" style: roughly a rectangle of leather, > slightly rounded at the toe, with the square end > sewn together to form the heel and holes cut in > the edges around the rest of the opening that are > laced together to hold it on the foot. There's > another similar shoe and at least two styles of > leather/fur hat, as well as a rather fascinating > backpack (presumably for carrying the mined > salt). One source notes that "more than a > hundred fragments of fabric" have been found in > Hallstadt-era salt mines. The include a variety > of weave types (both tabby and twill) and include > some color patterns of a checkered type, as well > as evidence of shaping by cutting and sewing. We > evidently missed one opportunity for even better > knowledge of the clothing: in 1734 the complete > body of a probably 4th c. BCE miner was found, > complete with clothing. Unfortunately he was > reburied in the local cemetery and has presumably > decomposed since then. (Similar finds were also > recorded in 1576 and 1616.) > > There are black and white photos of one of the hats and the backpack in: > > Piggott, Stuart. 1965. Ancient Europe from the > beginnings of Agriculture. Aldine Pub. Co., > Chicago. > > There's an article specifically on the backpack, > with details of a reconstruction, in: > > Kremer, Albert. 1982. "Tragkiepe aus dem > Bergwerk von Hallstatt: Beobacht" in J Rom Ger > Zentralmus Main: 23/24:250-253. > > Hans-Jürgen Hundt has an extensive series of > technical articles on the salt mine textiles. > They're in German, but do include photos of the > items, and diagrams of weaves and seams found in > the pieces. These articles include: > > Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1960. "Vorgeschichtliche > Gewebe aus dem Hallstatter Salzberg" in J Rom > Ger Zentralmus Main: 6:66-100. > > Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1960. "Vorgeschichtliche > Gewebe aus dem Hallstatter Salzberg" in J Rom > Ger Zentralmus Main: 7:126-150. (Includes a > couple of pieces that are clearly cut and shaped > by sewing.) > > Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1961. "Neunzehn Textilreste > aus dem Durrnberg in Hallein" in J Rom Ger > Zentralmus Main: 8:7-25. > > Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1967. "Vorgeschichtliche > Gewebe aus dem Hallstatter Salzberg" in J Rom > Ger Zentralmus Main: 14:38-65. > > Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1987. "Vorgeschichtliche > Gewebe aus dem Hallstatter Salzberg" in Jahrbuch > Rom Ger Zentralm: 34:261-286. > > See also: > > Klose, Olivier. 1926. "Buntes Gewebe aus dem > prahistorischen Salzbergwerk" in Mitteilungen > der Anthropologie: 56:346-350. > > HOHMICHELE > > Grave IV is useful, not having been robbed like > many of the others. It housed a man and a woman, > both with bronze fibulae interpreted as clothing > fasteners. The woman had a long necklace of > glass and amber beads that appears to have been > wound around the neck several times. There are > bronze belt mounts associated with the man. > Associated with the woman, there was a fragment > of woolen cloth decorated with silk thread. > Banck-Burgess (see under Hochdorf) has detailed > photos, diagrams, and reconstructions of this > cloth fragment. Hundt (1962) has a discussion of > what the textile finds from the various > Hohmichele graves tell us about the structure the > clothing. I haven't worked through it > completely, but see some notes below. > > Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1969. "Uber > Vorgeschichtliche Seidenfunde" in Jahrbuch Rom > Ger Zentralm: 16:59-65. > > Hundt, Hans-Jurgen. 1962. "Textilreste aus dem > Hohmichele" in Der Hohmichele - ein > Fürstengrabhügel der späten Hallstattzeit bei der > Heuneburg: 199-214 (pl.25-44). > > Various notes on the clothing from this article > include: All likely clothing pieces of wool 2/2 > twill. A fragment sewn to a tablet-woven band is > likely from clothing rather than grave > furnishings. The twill fragment is cut along the > edge sewn to the band and folded over at the > seam, rather than sewn by a selvedge. Described > in the original report, but not preserved, was a > 11.5 cm wide fringed belt, decorated with strips > of gold. (While this description could indicate > several possibilities, based on the presence of > tablet-woven bands, and comparing with a strip of > gold from another site that shows the effects of > having been brocading, I'd consider a combination > of the two a likely interpretation here.) The > grave also includes a braid of human hair, > dressed with a greasy substance that also colors > it red. (There is some discussion there about > whether this was an everyday hairstyle or a > special "hair offering". But I'm missing some of > the context for the discussion.) Specifically > regarding the woman's grave (grave VI), he > suggests that the lack of textile fragments from > the upper region of the body doesn't necessarily > indicate that she was buried with the upper body > unclothed (there appears to be some discussion of > differential water damage in the grave). The > most famous textile from this grave -- the one > decorated with silk -- was found on the inner > side of the left thigh. Hundt suggests it > represents the lower (hem?) portion of a > mid-thigh-length over-tunic. (He continues with > a description of the silk decoration, which is > better understood by finding one of the > reconstructions.) He speculates that the > decorations continued on the upper part of this > garment. On the left hip of the woman is a > three-strand braid (with approximately 6-8 > threads per strand) that may have served as a > belt. A small piece of tablet weaving around > the ankle region is suggested to be a hem band of > an ankle-length garment (presumably worn under > the decorated garment). And a piece of 2:2 twill > found between the legs is suggested as the fabric > for this garment. Around calf height there's a > (technical description -- I think it may indicate > a slightly matted or fulled fabric) piece that is > also represented in other layers. He suggests it > may be a fragment of a warm cloak that the body > lay on. At any rate, it must be some layer > different from the garment edged with the > tablet-woven band. Possible clues are offered by > a male grave where the belt plaques lie over two > different layers of thick 2:2 wool twill, one of > which corresponds to a textile with red stripes > found around knee-level. He suggests we have > striped hose (showing up both at the knee and > waist) and a tunic over that (showing up only at > the waist). (Hundt then goes into a long > discussion of verifying that the decorative > threads really are silk, and various possible > trade routes by which they might have arrived, > and the possibility that this is wild bombyx silk > rather than "true" silk.) > > HOCHDORF > > A rich site for textiles, although in the usual > fragmentary state. To confuse the issue, the > grave chamber itself was decorated with textiles, > which were pinned to the walls with fibulae. > Textiles associated with the body of the man > include at least some gold thread decorations. > There was a belt covered in gold leaf (and so > presumably leather), but only the fastening > remains. He also wore leather shoes decorated > with thin sheets of gold, and the shape of the > decorations can give us a guess at the > now-disintegrated shoes. He also wore a conical > hat made of birch bark. (A good example of the > sort of artifact it would be hard to interpolate > if we didn't actually have it!) > > Banck-Burgess, Johanna. 1999. Hochdorf IV: Die > Textilfunde aus dem späthallstattzeitlichen > Fürstengrab von Eberdingen-Hochdorf (Kreis > Ludwigsburg) und weitere Grabtextilien aus > Hallstatt- und latčnezeitlichen Kulturgruppen. > Konrad Theiss Verlag, Stuttgart. ISBN > 3-8062-1453-0 > > This book is well worth tracking down, even if > you're hopeless in German. (There's a brief > summary in English at the end.) The title > translates: "Hochdorf IV: The textile finds from > the late Hallstadt era princely grave of > Eberdingen-Hochdorf and other grave textiles from > Hallstadt and La Tene era culture groups." I > bought it from David Brown/Oxbow and it's > apparently still in print. Be aware that some of > the textiles covered in this book are decidedly > _not_ La Tene. E.g., there are extensive > diagrams and reconstructions of a decorated cloth > from Irgenhausen that my other sources identify > as Neolithic. Examples of Hallstadt tablet-woven > bands, both in colors and with metallic brocading > (the "metal thread" items mentioned under several > sites). Includes modern reconstructions and > pattern instructions. Complete catalog of the > Hochdorf textiles (including grave furnishings). > Extensive catalog of other sites with textile > remains. Unfortunately the Hochdorf textiles are > in such small and scattered fragments that they > tell us nothing about the cut and construction of > the clothing involved, and only a little about > its layering relative to the body. But for the > decorative possibilities, this is invaluable. > > See also: > > Biel, J. 1981. "Late Hallstatt Chieftain's > Grave at Hochdorf" in Antiquity: 55:16-18 + > plates. > > But this is a preliminary report and includes few figures or photos. > > VIX > > The so-called "princess of Vix" represents the > later and western end of the scope covered here. > This is a rich woman's grave with many imported > Mediterranean goods as well as "native" items. > The excavation report is: > > Joffroy, R. 1979. Vix et ses trésors. Paris. > > I haven't seen this publication myself, unfortunately. > > The woman had several neck ornaments: a bulky > torque-like item, two described just as > "necklaces", and a string of beads made from > amber, diorite, and serpentine. There were 8 > small fibulae decorated with coral that are > interpreted as dress fasteners, but I can't find > a description of their layout. She also wore > bracelets and an anklet. > > SUMMARY > > We have a good idea of the types of weaves and > colors available, as well as several decorative > techniques and a surprising amount of information > on constructional sewing. A detailed look at the > placement of garment fasteners in the graves > could give some information on garment structure, > but this doesn't seem to be something normally > covered in the literature, and it won't give > definitive answers. Hundt, at least, offers some > suggestions based on the distribution of textiles > in the graves, although his speculations strike > me as involving preconceived theories of what > garments are probably involved (possibly based on > artistic examples like those discussed below). > We have vastly more information on accessories: > jewelry, belts, and even a few hats and shoes. > > It would be nice to interpolate from the clothing > shown on human figures in art of the time, but > these are relatively few, often highly stylized, > or on imported goods that can't be relied on to > reflect Celtic styles. Kruta et al. have a short > discussion of some of the earliest exceptions to > this general dearth, although they fall more in > the "early La Tene" period than "late Hallstadt". > A 5th c. BCE style of fibula includes stylized > human heads. Male heads typically sport > moustaches, and sometimes a beard as well. One > whole male figure from Bohemia has stylistic > similarities to Etruscan work and sports short > trousers and pointed shoes (according to Kruta et > al., although I don't think I'd interpret the > representation as trousers -- it isn't clearly > bifurcated, and simply consists of a couple bands > of decoration around the hip and thigh area). > Another 5th c. BCE fibula from Dürrnberg shows > full-length somewhat baggy trousers and a > relatively short front-opening > jacket/vest/shirt/???. An engraved bronze > scabbard from Hallstadt has a sequence of > warriors on foot and horseback. All are wearing > ankle-high, pointed shoes. The riders appear to > have horizontal stripes on their legs, suggested > some sort of striped trousers. They also wear an > upper garment or garments. In at least one case, > it appears to be a (sleeveless?) tunic, possibly > somewhat loose based on vertical lines that may > indicate folds, and belted at the waist. On > other figures, there is a different pattern above > the belt, possibly indicating some sort of > breast-plate, while below the belt a short > (thigh-length) section with vertical lines > presumably represents a (sleeveless?) tunic worn > under it. The riders appear to wear > close-fitting caps/helmets with a chin strap, > while the footmen appear to have none (but have a > somewhat bowl-shaped haircut). The body > clothing, if any, of the footmen is hidden behind > large oval shields. Two pairs of possible divine > figures flanking the martial scene have similar > clothing, but here the upper-body garment appears > to be cut away to the back (i.e., longer in the > back than front, or perhaps open at the front?). > A 5th c. BCE fibula from the Vienna area is > shaped like a shoe with an upcurved point, > similar to those worn by the above figures. The > only female figures I've seen from this era are > the supporters on the bronze couch in the > Hochdorf tomb, and while they appear to have > markings indicating jewelry, they are otherwise > nude. > > At any rate, as I said earlier, a whole lot of > fragments, and not all that much confidence in > what they fit together to form. Any actual > outfit is going to require extrapolation and > guesswork, but you can certainly end up with > something "not inconsistent with the evidence". > > Heather > -- > **** > Heather Rose Jones > heather.jones@earthlink.net > **** > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 15:12:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64JCRRM023585 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:12:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64J6sd5020689 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:06:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64J6k4g049834; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:06:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.228]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64J6i4g049812 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:06:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.98.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.98] helo=HELENPINTO) by mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BhCK4-0005Lr-1B for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:06:44 -0700 Message-ID: <00db01c461fa$08c62c60$62399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume List" Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:06:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef51b7aaefd0d0bb0760fcef8e67002a0a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.98 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Juana la Loca X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i64JCRRM023585 Status: RO Since she was a topic on the list so much this week past, and several people have mentioned the movie- head's up, set the VCR's and TIVO's, since it's running on Cinemax East at 5:15am EST, Monday morning, 7/5. It will also be on Cinemax West at 8:15am EST, Monday morning, 7/5. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 15:46:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64JkDRM023660 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:46:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64JiQd5022929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:44:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64JiO4g067473; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:44:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64JiN4g067459 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 13:44:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-68-164-169-228.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.169.228] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BhCuU-0004Ab-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:44:22 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003b01c461f1$e5d487e0$4811bc3f@susyhp> References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com><008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> <003b01c461f1$e5d487e0$4811bc3f@susyhp> Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:17:34 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 2:08 PM -0400 7/4/04, Susy wrote: >Heather, thank you so much for all the info. I wish I could peruse your >personal library! Your collection is enviable. I will start to locate the >sources you suggest immediately. Thanks also for all the time and effort >you put into to info you shared. Well, one of the few excuses I can legitimately make for the amount of money I spend on books is sharing the knowledge I get from them! Just because I already have the books piled around the living room, I'm thinking of doing a similar review of La Tene material before putting things back on the shelf again. (And since it's a long holiday weekend, chances are I'll actually do it -- especially if it helps me put off housekeeping.) >Do you still attend Pennsic? I will be attending this year for the first >time with Preachain. Hence, my deep interest in the details of authentic >garments. I would be delighted to get to meet you in person if you will be >there. It is encouraging to meet others who are as well versed in this >subject matter as you are. I delight in learning. Living as I do in California, Pennsic isn't exactly on my annual "must do" list -- particularly since I'm one of those people who really gets into the material culture aspects of events, so I can't be happy stuffing a suitcase full of costumes and jumping on a plane. I'm averaging one trip to Pennsic every decade so far. (But if, by chance, Darkovercon is on your itinerary, I'm probably going to start going again this year.) I'd love to have a "BCE Celtic" group to play with -- especially one serious about things other than martial arts -- but I'd pretty much have to invent one for myself out here. >I believe you are correct in your assessment of the fuzzy time frame issue. >I think the time period covered by the group may be fuzzy. However, I do >have a contact who has a degree in Celtic Studies within in the group, and I >think it is she who I will discuss details with as soon as I get the email >situation straightened out. Given the relatively small academic Celtic Studies community, there's half a chance that your contact and I might have heard of each other. Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 16:54:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64KseRM023967 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:54:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64Kqkd5026189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:52:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64Kqb4g002254; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:52:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ens9.eatel.net (ens9.eatel.net [209.124.203.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i64KqZ4g002193 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:52:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mamarose@eatel.net) Received: (qmail 13397 invoked by uid 89); 4 Jul 2004 20:52:29 -0000 Received: from ip-209-124-255-176.dynamic.eatel.net (HELO eatel.net) (209.124.255.176) by 0 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2004 20:52:29 -0000 Message-ID: <40E889AA.3060508@eatel.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 15:50:18 -0700 From: Margaret User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Margo's Patterns" , Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Dorathea's Dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've been wanting to make a dress exactly like Dorothea Sabina Von Neuburg's. I think it is totally gorgeous, and would be quite a challenge. I've got Janet Arnold's "Pattern of Fashion", and have all the drawings and pictures that I need. But it got me thinking. Is there a portrait of Dorathea Sabina? I've been looking around the Web, and haven't found one yet. Has anyone ever seen what this woman really looks like? I'd love to find out. Margaret Rose -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 4 19:31:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i64NUxRM024486 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:31:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64NTAd5004149 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:29:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64NT24g080856; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:29:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i64NSn4g080708 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:28:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i64NxA5c088495 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:59:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i64Nx9Hh088494 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:59:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407042359.i64Nx9Hh088494@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorathea's Dress In-Reply-To: <40E889AA.3060508@eatel.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I've been wanting to make a dress exactly like Dorothea Sabina Von > Neuburg's. I think it is totally gorgeous, and would be quite a > challenge. I've got Janet Arnold's "Pattern of Fashion", and have all > the drawings and pictures that I need. But it got me thinking. Is > there a portrait of Dorathea Sabina? I've been looking around the Web, > and haven't found one yet. Has anyone ever seen what this woman really > looks like? I'd love to find out. google Image Search is your friend. http://www.wandern-und-geschichte.de/hilpoltstein/pfalzneuburg.htm Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 00:44:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i654iRRM025383 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:44:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i654hed5020061 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:43:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i654hW4g035340; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:43:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hosting3.nexicom.net (hosting3.nexicom.net [216.168.96.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i654hT4h035241 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:43:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com) Received: (qmail 930 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2004 04:56:34 -0000 Received: from localhost.peterboro.net (HELO localhost) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.peterboro.net with SMTP; 5 Jul 2004 04:56:34 -0000 Received: from MTL-HSE-ppp183991.qc.sympatico.ca (MTL-HSE-ppp183991.qc.sympatico.ca [65.94.158.41]) by webmail.alabasterstyle.com (IMP) with HTTP for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:56:34 -0400 Message-ID: <1089003394.40e8df82c49c1@webmail.alabasterstyle.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:56:34 -0400 From: elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.2 X-Originating-IP: 65.94.158.41 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello all- I have been researching famous women who have influenced the fashions/culture of their times. Women whose taste was legendary, whose lifestyle was considered so stylish people sought to emulate everything they did. I see these women as being "modern" women of their times. I have chosen Mme. Pompadour for the 18th century, her style was considered impeccable & she was a great patron of the arts among many other things. I think that Chanel had similar stylistic power & influence in the 20th century. The question is... who would fit this description for the late 1875-1900's?? I thought of Edith Wharton, I know she knew many creative people & was revered for her abilities with interiors but what about fashion? If anyone can think of a 19th century woman who is very well known now & who was well ahead of her time then, I'd be glad to hear from you. Thanks Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 03:24:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i657OtRM019074 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 03:24:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i657OFd5028790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 01:24:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i657OB4g016455; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 01:24:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i657O84g016317 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 01:24:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp04.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.124]) by smtpout03.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABAQUARTAJUDKWS for (sender ); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4588 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2004 07:23:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.1.29) by smtp04.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2004 07:23:10 -0000 Message-ID: <000b01c46260$272539b0$1d01bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com><008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp><003b01c461f1$e5d487e0$4811bc3f@susyhp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 03:17:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 16:8:2744077584 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55of671o+kpdUVxNETX3bAvGCsIL12QPNyqr X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Heather I didn't realize you resided in California, that's unfortunate for me. But if things go well I'll be at Pennsic again and who knows where else in the future. Our paths may cross eventually. Do you have a degree in Celtic Studies as well, or perhaps teach in that subject area? I'm not sure where Amy/Lenea went to school, I'll have to ask her. I understand their are very few programs in the states in that subject area, I suppose chances are good you would be familiar with each other. I've had some luck tracking down some of the books you mentioned, but I'll have to dig deeper to find the texts in German. I don't know a bit of German, but a good friend of mine had four years in college, and my children are learning it at school, so I'm sure I could find someone to help me with translation. Thanks, oh, I'd be happy to hear what you come up with for the later period... yes I'm twisting your arm to convince you to put off that house work! Susy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather Rose Jones" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts > At 2:08 PM -0400 7/4/04, Susy wrote: > >Heather, thank you so much for all the info. I wish I could peruse your > >personal library! Your collection is enviable. I will start to locate the > >sources you suggest immediately. Thanks also for all the time and effort > >you put into to info you shared. > > > Well, one of the few excuses I can legitimately make for the amount > of money I spend on books is sharing the knowledge I get from them! > > Just because I already have the books piled around the living room, > I'm thinking of doing a similar review of La Tene material before > putting things back on the shelf again. (And since it's a long > holiday weekend, chances are I'll actually do it -- especially if it > helps me put off housekeeping.) > > > >Do you still attend Pennsic? I will be attending this year for the first > >time with Preachain. Hence, my deep interest in the details of authentic > >garments. I would be delighted to get to meet you in person if you will be > >there. It is encouraging to meet others who are as well versed in this > >subject matter as you are. I delight in learning. > > > Living as I do in California, Pennsic isn't exactly on my annual > "must do" list -- particularly since I'm one of those people who > really gets into the material culture aspects of events, so I can't > be happy stuffing a suitcase full of costumes and jumping on a plane. > I'm averaging one trip to Pennsic every decade so far. (But if, by > chance, Darkovercon is on your itinerary, I'm probably going to start > going again this year.) I'd love to have a "BCE Celtic" group to > play with -- especially one serious about things other than martial > arts -- but I'd pretty much have to invent one for myself out here. > > > >I believe you are correct in your assessment of the fuzzy time frame issue. > >I think the time period covered by the group may be fuzzy. However, I do > >have a contact who has a degree in Celtic Studies within in the group, and I > >think it is she who I will discuss details with as soon as I get the email > >situation straightened out. > > Given the relatively small academic Celtic Studies community, there's > half a chance that your contact and I might have heard of each other. > > Heather > -- > **** > Heather Rose Jones > heather.jones@earthlink.net > **** > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 05:19:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i659JuRM019907 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 05:19:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i659JLd5003950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 03:19:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i659JD4g073175; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 03:19:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt13.ihug.co.nz (grunt13.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i659JB4g073062 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 03:19:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p10-max5.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.207.138] by grunt13.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BhPco-0006Bk-00; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:18:59 +1200 Message-ID: <008d01c46271$1526b020$8acfadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c4618b$16048580$e01c58db@TRUSSARDI><001401c461a3$08e9a570$65d1adcb@michaela> <40E857BA.1080402@eatel.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crazy Mistress Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:18:46 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Crazy Mistress? OK, now this one I have to see. You wouldn't happen > to have a copy of that, would you? Crazy *portrait*;) Gold trimmed silver dress, full of lace and textures. There is a very small image online... http://collection.aucklandartgallery.govt.nz/results.jsp?view=detail&pos=2&id=1909 Louise de Keroualle, Duchess of Portsmouth, circa 1670 Henri Gascard The detail in the actual painting is amazing, hense crazy, but when you see it life size (which is pretty large) there are some odd things happening... gold bands acting like fabric or like trim at times... the angle of the point at the waist not matching with the rest of the waist by any means... http://collection.aucklandartgallery.govt.nz/results.jsp?view=detail&pos=7&id=3134 Portrait of a Lady, 1637 Dirck Santvoort (Netherlands, b.1610, d.1680) Proportions are off again, but the fabric is devine. Textured (what looks to be) satin in a repeating diamond pattern. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 07:35:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65BZrRM020555 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:35:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65BWqd5010534 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 05:32:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65BWn4g040895; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 05:32:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m27.mx.aol.com (imo-m27.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65BWi4g040807 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 05:32:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.158.3902fe18 (3890) for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <158.3902fe18.2e1a964d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:32:29 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/5/2004 12:45:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com writes: I have been researching famous women who have influenced the fashions/culture of their times. I suggest you read the book "Looking for Jackie: American Fashion Icons" by Kathleen Craughwell-Varda (NY: Hearst Books, 1999). Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 08:48:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65CmKRM020760 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:48:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65CkUd5014915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 06:46:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65CkM4g078449; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 06:46:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65CkK4g078395 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 06:46:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hbgd103@soton.ac.uk) Received: from modem-4038.gorilla.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.78.111.198] helo=soton.ac.uk) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1BhSrQ-0001rV-Ct for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:46:16 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:50:34 +0100 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mary Tudor Exhibition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Hilary Davidson To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <40E618A8.9000408@in-tch.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's also a very lovely conference on Textile Cultures: Spain and England from 1500, on the 22nd and 23rd of July - please come if you're in the area! On Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 03:23 am, Sue Clemenger wrote: > Drooool! > I wonder about the bit, though, where they were talking about those > possibly being her coronation robes....Am I misremembering, or was > there a bit in one of the wardrobe rolls included in QEUnlocked that > talked about Mary's *purple* coronation robes? > --sue, who could easily be completely off base with this one.... > > Linda Walton wrote: > >> There is a splendid exhibition being held at Winchester Cathedral, >> (England). >> Tue 29 June - Thu 30 September >> THE MARRIAGE OF ENGLAND & SPAIN EXHIBITION >> A unique exhibition of pictures, armour, tapestry, books, documents >> and >> heraldry from major English and Spanish collections. >> There will also be lots of events, lectures and so on. More here:- >> http://www.winchester-cathedral.org.uk/services/events_anniv.htm >> The centrepiece of the exhibition is the painting of Queen Mary by >> Flemish >> artist Hans Eworth. There are more details and a picture here:- >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3813065.stm >> and something about the giant pearl she is wearing, La Peregrina. >> > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 09:07:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65D7RRM020838 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:07:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65D6sd5015991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:06:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65D6s4g089009; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:06:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i65D5u4g088495 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:05:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCljQoAZCFT1MJe7xGgGW4aSifh9dHwGLSQ== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZSDLY3L; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:05:36 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:52:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? Message-ID: <20040705.075243.-153971347.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-38 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: h-costume@net.indra.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Have you considered Lily Langtry, the Jersey Lily? I believe she is credited with originating the 'little black dress' and a number of other fashions during her period of acendancy in the late 19th century. Also the Empress of Napoleon III (Marie?) who was credited with introducing/popularizing the crnoline and numerous other fashions of the mid 19th century. Just a couple of ideas. Karen On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:56:34 -0400 elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com writes: > Hello all- >> The question is... who would fit this description for the late > 1875-1900's?? > I thought of Edith Wharton, I know she knew many creative people & > was revered > for her abilities with interiors but what about fashion? > > If anyone can think of a 19th century woman who is very well known > now & who was > well ahead of her time then, I'd be glad to hear from you. > > Thanks > > Elizabeth > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 09:09:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65D9cRM020854 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:09:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65D61d5015944 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:06:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65D5x4g088587; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:05:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i65D5u4g088497 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:05:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCljQoAZCFT1MJe7xGgGW4aSifh9dHwGLSQ== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZSDLY3L; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:05:36 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:52:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? Message-ID: <20040705.075243.-153971347.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-38 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: h-costume@net.indra.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Have you considered Lily Langtry, the Jersey Lily? I believe she is credited with originating the 'little black dress' and a number of other fashions during her period of acendancy in the late 19th century. Also the Empress of Napoleon III (Marie?) who was credited with introducing/popularizing the crnoline and numerous other fashions of the mid 19th century. Just a couple of ideas. Karen On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:56:34 -0400 elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com writes: > Hello all- >> The question is... who would fit this description for the late > 1875-1900's?? > I thought of Edith Wharton, I know she knew many creative people & > was revered > for her abilities with interiors but what about fashion? > > If anyone can think of a 19th century woman who is very well known > now & who was > well ahead of her time then, I'd be glad to hear from you. > > Thanks > > Elizabeth > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 09:15:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65DFDRM020880 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:15:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65DCDd5016400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:12:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65DCB4g091837; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:12:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65DC94g091777 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:12:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hbgd103@soton.ac.uk) Received: from modem-4038.gorilla.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.78.111.198] helo=soton.ac.uk) by cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1BhTGM-0005Zf-TH for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 14:12:03 +0100 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:16:21 +0100 Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Hilary Davidson To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20040705.075243.-153971347.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> Message-Id: <8204C363-CE85-11D8-8410-000A9567E116@soton.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Is that Eugenie, patroness of Worth? Or is she someone different? She was very influential. What about Sarah Bernhardt? On Monday, July 5, 2004, at 01:52 pm, seamstrix@juno.com wrote: > Have you considered Lily Langtry, the Jersey Lily? I believe she is > credited with originating the 'little black dress' and a number of > other > fashions during her period of acendancy in the late 19th century. Also > the Empress of Napoleon III (Marie?) who was credited with > introducing/popularizing the crnoline and numerous other fashions of > the > mid 19th century. > > Just a couple of ideas. > > > Karen > > > On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 00:56:34 -0400 elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com writes: >> Hello all- >>> The question is... who would fit this description for the late >> 1875-1900's?? >> I thought of Edith Wharton, I know she knew many creative people & >> was revered >> for her abilities with interiors but what about fashion? >> >> If anyone can think of a 19th century woman who is very well known >> now & who was >> well ahead of her time then, I'd be glad to hear from you. >> >> Thanks >> >> Elizabeth >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> >> > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 09:20:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65DKZRM020905 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:20:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65DImd5016864 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:18:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65DIl4g095546; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:18:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65DIk4g095476 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 07:18:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.20.2d7262f7 (4004) for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:18:39 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <20.2d7262f7.2e1aaf2f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:18:39 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/5/2004 9:13:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, hbgd103@soton.ac.uk writes: Is that Eugenie, patroness of Worth? Or is she someone different? She was very influential. What about Sarah Bernhardt? Eugenie certainly was influential while she lasted. I think I remember a Eugenie hat and possibly a color named for her, among other things. I think you need to find at least 4 women per century--one for each quarter at minimum. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 10:15:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65EFnRM021141 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:15:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65ECgd5020025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:12:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65ECc4g025100; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:12:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i65ECb4g025065 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:12:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from athurman@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c3so29717rnb for ; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.79.12 with SMTP id c12mr29153rnb; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 07:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d21ac1904070507125eabeb28@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:12:32 -0400 From: "A. Thurman" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] trendsetters of late 19th c? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO You might want to look for a book called "Looking for Jackie: American Fashion Icons". It's focus is the United States, but it does cover all time periods you're asking about. For the late 19th century the author(s?) have chapters on Ethel Barrymore and Alice Roosevelt Longfellow. That's just what I got out of a quick glance through. Good luck! Allison T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 11:25:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65FPvRM021455 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:25:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65FMtd5024675 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:22:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65FMq4g065242; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:22:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65FMn4g065216 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 09:22:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BhVIu-00074z-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 08:22:48 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:22:59 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c462a3$f4e7f4d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703151808.0211c728@mail.katiesorchids.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Wow & Thanks! was Another painting to find... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks all for your interest and discussion. Sorry for the delay, I have been gone for the last few days! Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 13:36:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65HaBRM022019 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:36:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65HYHd5004433 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:34:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65HY74g055528; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:34:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell3.shore.net (shell3.shore.net [207.244.124.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65HXv4h055417 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:33:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from vintage@primushost.com) Received: from vintage by shell3.shore.net with local (Exim) for id 1BhXNj-0007BF-00; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:35:55 -0400 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:35:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Katy Bishop To: Bjarne og Leif Drews Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises In-Reply-To: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: h-costume@indra.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Welcome back Bjarne, I am glad to have an explanation for your uncharacteristic message to the list. I hope you have success with giving up drinking! I have missed your posts and seeing your work. Katy On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: >Hello, >Elizabeth was so kind to give me another chance with h-costume. >I sincerely want to apollogise all on this list for my insane insult i gave >you some time back. >It was a shamefull awsome thing to do, and i am really really sorry about >this. I wish it never had happened. >I cant give you any excuses for the thing i did, but i want to give you an >explanation about what happened to me. >I am an alcoholic, and i am so much ashamed and sorry for this. It is a >kronic thing, and i will never be cured for it. >Sometimes when i have not ben drinking for a long time, i think that i am >cured again and that i can drink again. This happened to me, and i started >to drink. After 3 days, my brain was totally alcoholised and i wrote that >email to the list :-( I cant explain why i did it, because i have many >great friends in America, and i dont have that oppinion at all. >But please accept my sincere apollogises to you all, i promise it will not >happend again. >I am sober again, and i think that i now know, that there is no return, i >simply must stop drinking again. >I know that it is hard for you to read about my problems, but it was only >because i wanted to explain what had happened to me. >I have missed you soo much, and i look forwards to read all your posts again > >Many greetings >Bjarne > > > > > >Leif og Bjarne Drews >www.my-drewscostumes.dk > >http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 15:15:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65JFrRM022383 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:15:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65JDxd5012329 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:13:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65JDs4g015555; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:13:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m17.mx.aol.com (imo-m17.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65JDp4g015454 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:13:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.12e.45a853aa (26116) for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:13:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <12e.45a853aa.2e1b0260@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:13:36 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/4/04 11:45:45 PM Central Daylight Time, elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com writes: If anyone can think of a 19th century woman who is very well known now & who was well ahead of her time then, I'd be glad to hear from you. I would second the recommendation of Lillie Langtry. Due to photography and lots of other sociological factors, actresses started to be less the undesirable unwashed, and began their slow transition into the fashion icons that we know them as today, during the last quarter of the 19th century. She was definitely a standout, along with Sarah Bernhardt. In one of my books (Victorian Dress in Photographs by Madeleine Ginsberg) there's a study that they've called "fashion and dress, or the ideal and the reality!" It has a photograph of Lillie Langtry dressed in the absolute height of fashion for 1878, a tight fitting basque bodice with trompe l'oeil velvet bands, showing off her famous wasp-waisted figure to perfection. Next to it is a lady of rather larger proportions, doing her best to copy the style of Langtry's gown, and it just doesn't quite work the same. You might consider making actresses in general a section of your overall theme, since there were so many and they tended to be regionally popular and influential. Some other names: Ellen Terry, Violet Cameron, Mrs. John Wood (many single actresses performed under "married" names to give themselves some scant protection and a tinge of respectability), Ada Blanche, Florence St. John, Irene Vanbrugh, Adelina Patti, Ada Cavendish, Elena di Murska (opera singer). Another extremely popular fashion icon was Princess Alexandra of Denmark, who married Albert Prince of Wales in 1863. She was considered one of the greatest beauties of her day and her fashions were instantly noted, copied and spread far and wide across England and other countries. My personal recommendation for a single person to represent the 19th century, though, is Victoria. She gave her name to the age in many countries, ruled an empire and influenced everything from the way we view relationships between men and women, to the way we mourn our dead. Her fashions were also copied and revered far and wide for decades. "Victorian" is a term used to describe every kind of clothing from a boat-necked ballgown of the 1840's through a bustle-trained walking suit of the 1880's. Besides Elizabeth I, she's the only woman about whom a statement like that can be made. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 16:55:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65KtSRM027336 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:55:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65KrHd5019644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:53:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65Kr74g097019; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:53:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound20-2.nyc.untd.com (outbound20-2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.20.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i65Kr44g096933 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:53:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail25.nyc.untd.com [10.140.30.167]) by smtpout01.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABAQVR5UA5679GA for (sender ); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:52:02 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCljQoAZCFT1MYmhs2clXAHPZ4Jmh20PzEw== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by webmail25.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZS79XLR; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:51:26 PDT Received: from [4.158.81.103] by webmail25.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:51:24 GMT X-Originating-IP: [4.158.81.103] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "seamstrix@juno.com" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:51:24 GMT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20040705.135126.16034.201624@webmail25.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:3:156678744 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I would argue with you about using Victoria as a fashion icon. Even during the time when she was ostensibly following fashion (before Albert's death) she was noted by those around her as not having a good fashion sense and dressing in either a dowdy or gauche way- the French observers used to call her taste 'bougoise' and although she greatly admired Eugenie (yes, that''s who I meant!), she was never able to dress with the same degree of style that the French Empress pulled off. After Albert's death she forsook fashion entirely and maintained a sort of version of the fashion she was wearing at the time of Albert's death for the rest of her life- which put her significantly out of step with the rest of the world and, as far as I know, no one attempted to copy her peculiar style. So I would say 'yes' to cultural and political icon, 'no' to fashion icon. Karen -- Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: My personal recommendation for a single person to represent the 19th century, though, is Victoria. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 17:35:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i65LZhRM027527 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:35:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65LZBd5022787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:35:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65LZ84g020931; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:35:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i65LZ64g020858 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 15:35:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.119.34f3cf37 (18251) for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:35:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <119.34f3cf37.2e1b2383@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:34:59 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/5/04 3:55:28 PM Central Daylight Time, seamstrix@juno.com writes: So I would say 'yes' to cultural and political icon, 'no' to fashion icon. And I would argue that for a good deal of Victoria's life, they were one and the same thing. Even people in the US (women, more specifically) were fascinated with the British Royal family, and Victoria's lifestyle and what she considered proper in every aspect of life (even, perhaps especially, clothing) was very much a go-by for the middle classes of both England and the US. She may not have set the fashion for what the "fashionable people" would wear, but she very definitely embodied the ideal for a much larger percentage of the population. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 20:45:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i660jlRM028300 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:45:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i660hfd5006252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:43:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i660hV4g030297; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:43:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i660hS4g030246 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:43:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.151] (pm5-151.eos.net [205.133.149.151]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i660hMq6015968 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:43:22 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:41:20 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407051801.i65I1F4h072002@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] re: Alice Roosevelt X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That's Alice Roosevelt Longworth, not Longfellow. "Alice blue" is a color named after her -- ie, the song "Sweet Little Alice Blue Gown." Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 22:39:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i662dPRM028688 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:39:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i662cjd5013762 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:38:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i662cg4g092858; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:38:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i662cI4h092665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:38:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mikes@dandy.net) Received: from dandy.net (acty5178.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.250.178]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i662Xp3B002189 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:33:59 -0400 Message-ID: <40EA0F7A.1080102@dandy.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:33:30 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> <008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, All. As a side note to Heather's excellent letter (I save ones like that and print them for reference, dontcha know...) there is a nice coffee-table like book that I picked up recently from Daedalus Books around the DC area called Gods and Heroes of the Bronze Age; Europe at the time of Ulysses. It is a companion book to the 25th Council of Europe Art exhibition from the National Museum of Denmark in 1998-99 and the Kunst-und-Ausstellungshalle in Bonn, Germany. Aside from the color plates of the wonderful artifacts is a great chart on pgs. 16 and 17 giving a chronological table of the periods and the names given by archaeologists in various places in Europe and the Mideast for the Bronze Age cultures. Is is very edifying to see the dates and culture names put in one place. It includes an article by Walter Leitner on Otzi, as the "Ice Man" has been named, and the illos, including a few assemblages of metal-working tools and even a set of panpipes, are very nice. Although there is no clothing shown apart from Otzi's, there are numeruos figurines and sculptures that show some details, and there is a great quantity of jewelry and clothing accessories (pins, fibulae, a golden ceremonial hat, etc.). The bobliography notes Heather's listings plus a number of others on a variety of related subjects. Good Luck, Mike T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 5 23:14:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i663E2RM028945 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:14:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i663CCd5015898 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:12:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i663C94g011056; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:12:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i663C74h011023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:12:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mikes@dandy.net) Received: from dandy.net (lxlerhqtre@acty1175.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.242.175]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i663C23B015433 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:12:04 -0400 Message-ID: <40EA187F.8010403@dandy.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:11:59 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> <008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, All. As a side note to Heather's excellent letter (I save ones like that and print them for reference, dontcha know...) there is a nice coffee-table like book that I picked up recently from Daedalus Books around the DC area called Gods and Heroes of the Bronze Age; Europe at the time of Ulysses. It is a companion book to the 25th Council of Europe Art exhibition from the National Museum of Denmark in 1998-99 and the Kunst-und-Ausstellungshalle in Bonn, Germany. Aside from the color plates of the wonderful artifacts is a great chart on pgs. 16 and 17 giving a chronological table of the periods and the names given by archaeologists in various places in Europe and the Mideast for the Bronze Age cultures. Is is very edifying to see the dates and culture names put in one place. It includes an article by Walter Leitner on Otzi, as the "Ice Man" has been named, and the illos, including a few assemblages of metal-working tools and even a set of panpipes, are very nice. Although there is no clothing shown apart from Otzi's, there are numerous figurines and sculptures that show some details, and there is a great quantity of jewelry and clothing accessories (pins, fibulae, a golden ceremonial hat, etc.). The bibliography notes Heather's listings plus a number of others on a variety of related subjects. Good Luck, Mike T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 02:02:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6662pRM030158 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 02:02:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6660fd5026600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:00:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6660W4g097202; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:00:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6660Q4g097150 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:00:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bhj0D-0000Ie-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:00:25 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:00:38 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c4631e$901b3f50$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt attachment? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6662pRM030158 Status: RO Hi all, a gal in one of my drafting classes said she had been shown a very interesting stitch called the accordion stitch shown to her by someone she ran into during a ''war''. Apparently this stitch is used to attach a skirt to an waistband or bodice and is very forgiving if the skirt is stepped on. It creates an almost elastic response. The gal didn't remember the lady's name or the exact away it was accomplished, so I thought I'd run it by you all since you are most resourceful! Any ideas? Thanks Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 02:05:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6665YRM031284 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 02:05:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6662Jd5026691 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:02:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6662J4g098087; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:02:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6661E4g097474 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 00:01:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gia_gavino@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.117 ([204.127.197.117]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20040706060109015003jmj6e>; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:01:09 +0000 Received: from [24.16.242.58] by 204.127.197.117; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:01:07 +0000 From: gia_gavino@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:01:07 +0000 Message-Id: <070620040601.8879.40EA402300092E2F000022AF2200734076010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Z2lhX2dhdmlub0Bjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO *puzzeled look* Huh!??? Wait a minute! Did something happened to my email and I didn't get the post with the awesome stuff? Oh, please tell me it ain't so! (beginning to suffer from intense researchaholic withdrawls...) -- Slan go foill Emer óTighearnaigh Átha An Ri -------------- Original message -------------- > Hi, All. As a side note to Heather's excellent letter (I save ones like > that and print them for reference, dontcha know...) there is a nice > coffee-table like book that I picked up recently from Daedalus Books > around the DC area called Gods and Heroes of the Bronze Age; Europe at > the time of Ulysses. It is a companion book to the 25th Council of > Europe Art exhibition from the National Museum of Denmark in 1998-99 and > the Kunst-und-Ausstellungshalle in Bonn, Germany. Aside from the color > plates of the wonderful artifacts is a great chart on pgs. 16 and 17 > giving a chronological table of the periods and the names given by > archaeologists in various places in Europe and the Mideast for the > Bronze Age cultures. Is is very edifying to see the dates and culture > names put in one place. It includes an article by Walter Leitner on > Otzi, as the "Ice Man" has been named, and the illos, including a few > assemblages of metal-working tools and even a set of panpipes, are very > nice. Although there is no clothing shown apart from Otzi's, there are > numeruos figurines and sculptures that show some details, and there is a > great quantity of jewelry and clothing accessories (pins, fibulae, a > golden ceremonial hat, etc.). The bobliography notes Heather's listings > plus a number of others on a variety of related subjects. Good Luck, > Mike T. > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 06:55:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66AtpRM024095 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:55:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Ar1d5010896 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 04:53:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Aql4g043517; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 04:52:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Aqi4g043465 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 04:52:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:51:09 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [H-cost] Bathing dress To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEE6@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [H-cost] Bathing dress Thread-Index: AcRhDYWPuAocOu/ITgaPb5ggTtCBlwCOVDUA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Just be careful not to fall into the trap a friend of mine > did Thanks for the warning, Sandy. Since this will be worn on a very public beach in August, I really do ned to be sure I can get out of the water without causing offense to the other bathers. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 07:00:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66B0NRM024112 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:00:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66AvQd5011008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 04:57:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66AvP4g045711; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 04:57:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m19.mx.aol.com (imo-m19.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66AvL4g045649 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 04:57:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.2d.3fbc872d (4116) for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:57:12 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <2d.3fbc872d.2e1bdf88@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:57:12 EDT Subject: Re: [H-cost] Bathing dress To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/6/2004 6:54:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, Teddy@mdx.ac.uk writes: Since this will be worn on a very public beach in August, I really do ned to be sure I can get out of the water without causing offense to the other bathers. I believe men's bathing suits (and women's, too, for that matter) were usually made of dark knitted wool. That should not cause a great problem when wet. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 07:22:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66BMFRM024192 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:22:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66BFBd5012156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:15:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66BF34g054466; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:15:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66BEx4g054394 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:15:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:14:00 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEE7@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Another painting to find... Thread-Index: AcRhfvXY/OjRRgfxSGexBJti26Z8tAByyf5w content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Comment: Middlesex University has scanned this message for viruses. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i2_0063.jpg > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000115 > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000098 > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000107 > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100014&I=000013 > Robin, would you happen to have dates for these images? Many thanks Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 07:26:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66BQ1RM024214 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:26:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66BOGd5012645 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:24:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66BOE4g059058; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:24:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66BOA4g058692 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:24:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i66BNtC10272.; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:23:56 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:23:33 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:23:20 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: , <17thcentury@reconstructinghistory.com> Subject: [H-cost] [17th century] Hollar cap Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Having finally managed to get hold of some linen at the last Sealed Knot event I attended, I've at last made up my Hollar cap from Kass's pattern and wore it to an early music event at the Weald & Downland Museum at the weekend. I only finished hemming the matching neckerchief the night before! The cap was pronounced a success. I like it as it conceals the very thick tuft of hair at the nape of my neck, which looks untidy under a shorter coif. No pics, I'm afraid, as we still haven't managed to get a website organised. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 07:55:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66BtsRM024307 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:55:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Bind5013726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:44:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Bil4g069019; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:44:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Bif4g068958 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:44:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from david_serxner@ncsu.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i66BidkV017115 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17084-01 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:44:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ncsu.edu (acq-gss4421.lib.ncsu.edu [152.1.24.106]) by uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i66Bic8j017107 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:44:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40EA90A6.80108@ncsu.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 07:44:38 -0400 From: David Serxner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Atlanta museums? References: <200407021957.i62Jv6ZG065026@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407021957.i62Jv6ZG065026@sabre.goldsword.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Charlotte has the Mint Museum, which has a nice collection of vintage fashion. http://www.mintmuseum.org/ And through the 19th of September they have an exhibition called "Fashions of the Crinoline Era." I am going to be there this weekend for a wedding, so I am going to try and stop to see it. http://www.mintmuseum.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=19 David, who is still hunting for 17th century Italian nuns and finding none. Susan Farmer wrote: >>Are there any good museums with costume collections near a MARTA station in >>Atlanta? I'll be in town in early August, but with limited time to schlep >>around, and prefer to take the train when I can. Thanks! >> >> > >And on a similar subject -- how about the Charlotte NC area? > >Jerusha >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > -- David Serxner NCSU Libraries Acquisitions Dept. Serials and Electronic Resources Campus Box 7111 Raleigh, NC 27695-7111 919-513-3355 office 919-515-7292 fax _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 08:11:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66CBRRM024405 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:11:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66C9Zd5014816 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:09:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66C9W4g082168; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:09:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66C9T4g082120 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:09:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m37.in-tch.com [216.166.191.37]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i66Bitg12751 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 05:44:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40EA9762.6020300@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 06:13:22 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts References: <070620040601.8879.40EA402300092E2F000022AF2200734076010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <070620040601.8879.40EA402300092E2F000022AF2200734076010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO You must have missed it somehow, because I got it.... --sue gia_gavino@comcast.net wrote: > *puzzeled look* Huh!??? Wait a minute! Did something happened to my > email and I didn't get the post with the awesome stuff? Oh, please > tell me it ain't so! > > (beginning to suffer from intense researchaholic withdrawls...) -- > Slan go foill Emer óTighearnaigh Átha An Ri _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 09:03:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66D3eRM000824 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:03:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66D0bd5017205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:00:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66D0Z4g009581; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:00:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f56.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.11.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66D0U4g009485 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:00:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hannah_osa@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:00:23 -0700 Received: from 209.240.205.62 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:00:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.240.205.62] X-Originating-Email: [hannah_osa@hotmail.com] X-Sender: hannah_osa@hotmail.com From: "Hannah Blake" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:00:23 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2004 13:00:23.0789 (UTC) FILETIME=[335871D0:01C46359] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: michael tartaglio >there is a nice coffee-table like book that I picked up recently from >Daedalus Books around the DC area called Gods and Heroes of the Bronze Age; >Europe at the time of Ulysses. It is a companion book to the 25th Council >of Europe Art exhibition from the National Museum of Denmark in 1998-99 and >the Kunst-und-Ausstellungshalle in Bonn, Germany. Ooooh, I managed to miss that one--and I hit the store at least once a month! I'll have to see if there's another copy or ten :) in stock... BTW, if anyone in the DC-Baltimore area hasn't discovered Daedalus yet, you're missing some real bargains! Peace, Willie <--has worked PT in Daeadlus' call center for about 13 years...*not* on commission, though, FYI...and has succumbed to the temptation of toooo many of their books over those years... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Life Events gives you the tips and tools to handle the turning points in your life. http://lifeevents.msn.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 10:12:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66EC6RM009738 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:12:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EBTd5021706 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:11:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EBM4g053494; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:11:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EBE4g053355 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:11:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bed3.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.211]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C73F5EE00B for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:11:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001901c46363$1c8d4930$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:11:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi. Alexandra and her sisters used to sew their own clothes while they were prinsesses in Denmark. The court was poor and very economminal. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 10:29:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66ETcRM009799 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:29:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EQdd5022969 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:26:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EQa4g063872; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:26:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EQX4g063847 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:26:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i66EQXB7018718 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:26:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040706102525.00b8bc60@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:26:36 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] sincere apologises In-Reply-To: <003f01c46067$e0e9c050$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey Bjarne... good to have you back. Bridgette _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 10:34:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66EYVRM009824 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:34:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EWld5023724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:32:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EWh4g068408; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:32:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EWf4g068328 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:32:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.98.f03f39b (3657) for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:32:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <98.f03f39b.2e1c11ff@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:32:31 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/6/04 9:12:16 AM Central Daylight Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: Alexandra and her sisters used to sew their own clothes while they were prinsesses in Denmark. The court was poor and very economminal. Perhaps, but that was not the case when she married the Prince of Wales. To quote from "Victorian Fashion in Photographs": "Princess Alexandra's beauty and popularity made whatever she wore a model for millions of Englishwomen of all classes...The bride wore white satin which, according to the Illustrated London News was 'trimmed with chatelaines of orange blossoms, myrtle and bouffants of tulle with Honiton lace; the train of silver moire antique' similarly trimmed. The dress was made by Mrs. James of London and may have been paid for by the King of the Belgians. He had wanted to give the bride a Worth dress but political considerations prevailed." The book contains several examples of the many commemorative photographs which were issued to the public of the Princess of Wales; it is only natural that following these, she became a fashion trendsetter. The book also speculates that the slender Princess line dresses were named for Alexandra, having started the trend. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 10:41:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66Ef7RM009850 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:41:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Ec3d5024211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:38:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Ebx4g072749; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:37:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Ebu4g072676 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:37:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.65.2d9c541c (4584) for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:37:45 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <65.2d9c541c.2e1c1339@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:37:45 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/6/2004 10:33:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: The book also speculates that the slender Princess line dresses were named for Alexandra, having started the trend. I thought Worth developed the princess line? Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 10:47:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66El8RM009858 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:47:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EjHd5024865 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:45:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Eix4g077886; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:45:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell3.shore.net (shell3.shore.net [207.244.124.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Eiq4h077777 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:44:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from vintage@primushost.com) Received: from vintage by shell3.shore.net with local (Exim) for id 1BhrDd-0003pJ-00; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:46:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:46:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Katy Bishop To: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? In-Reply-To: <12e.45a853aa.2e1b0260@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: h-costume@indra.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I was going to suggest Lillie Langtry too. Katy On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 7/4/04 11:45:45 PM Central Daylight Time, >elizabeth@alabasterstyle.com writes: >If anyone can think of a 19th century woman who is very well known now & who >was >well ahead of her time then, I'd be glad to hear from you. > >I would second the recommendation of Lillie Langtry. Due to photography and >lots of other sociological factors, actresses started to be less the >undesirable unwashed, and began their slow transition into the fashion icons that we >know them as today, during the last quarter of the 19th century. She was >definitely a standout, along with Sarah Bernhardt. In one of my books (Victorian >Dress in Photographs by Madeleine Ginsberg) there's a study that they've called >"fashion and dress, or the ideal and the reality!" It has a photograph of >Lillie Langtry dressed in the absolute height of fashion for 1878, a tight >fitting basque bodice with trompe l'oeil velvet bands, showing off her famous >wasp-waisted figure to perfection. Next to it is a lady of rather larger >proportions, doing her best to copy the style of Langtry's gown, and it just doesn't >quite work the same. > >You might consider making actresses in general a section of your overall >theme, since there were so many and they tended to be regionally popular and >influential. Some other names: Ellen Terry, Violet Cameron, Mrs. John Wood (many >single actresses performed under "married" names to give themselves some scant >protection and a tinge of respectability), Ada Blanche, Florence St. John, >Irene Vanbrugh, Adelina Patti, Ada Cavendish, Elena di Murska (opera singer). > >Another extremely popular fashion icon was Princess Alexandra of Denmark, who >married Albert Prince of Wales in 1863. She was considered one of the >greatest beauties of her day and her fashions were instantly noted, copied and >spread far and wide across England and other countries. > >My personal recommendation for a single person to represent the 19th century, >though, is Victoria. She gave her name to the age in many countries, ruled >an empire and influenced everything from the way we view relationships between >men and women, to the way we mourn our dead. Her fashions were also copied >and revered far and wide for decades. "Victorian" is a term used to describe >every kind of clothing from a boat-necked ballgown of the 1840's through a >bustle-trained walking suit of the 1880's. Besides Elizabeth I, she's the only >woman about whom a statement like that can be made. > >-Tiffany >Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. >******************************* >Reflections*of*Worth >http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 10:51:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66EpcRM009873 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:51:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EmXd5025256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:48:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EmW4g080443; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:48:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EmR4g080373 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:48:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-57-028.jps.net ([209.165.57.28] helo=KALC) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BhrFB-0000Ay-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 07:48:25 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt attachment? Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:48:22 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-reply-to: <000a01c4631e$901b3f50$6a01a8c0@SG01> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've heard "accordion stich" used to describe a "cartridge pleat". I suspect they might be one in the same. Lisa Sinervo -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 11:01 PM To: h-costume@net.indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt attachment? Hi all, a gal in one of my drafting classes said she had been shown a very interesting stitch called the accordion stitch shown to her by someone she ran into during a ''war''. Apparently this stitch is used to attach a skirt to an waistband or bodice and is very forgiving if the skirt is stepped on. It creates an almost elastic response. The gal didn't remember the lady's name or the exact away it was accomplished, so I thought I'd run it by you all since you are most resourceful! Any ideas? Thanks Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 10:55:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66EtJRM009891 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:55:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Epcd5025549 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:51:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66EpZ4g082749; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:51:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i66EpP4g082574 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:51:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OgsF+22XejdZ+iRZv5/+ltI= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZU5ZLPK; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 07:50:24 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:49:30 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra Message-ID: <20040706.074931.1588.4.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-8,10 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Cley@juno.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This part threw me. 'trimmed with > chatelaines of orange blossoms, myrtle and bouffants of tulle with Honiton lace; > the train of silver moire antique' similarly trimmed. What are chatelaines? Where were they and the bouffants on the dress? Arlys, who knows what a medieval chatelaine is, and an SCA one, but not a costuming one ;) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 11:01:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66F19RM009945 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:01:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66ExLd5026666 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:59:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66ExI4g088820; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:59:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66ExE4g088777 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:59:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BhrPa-00049F-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 07:59:10 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt attachment? Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:59:25 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c46369$d42a14a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hmm, I don't think so the way this gal described it. It literally stretched and bounced back to the waistband (or bodice) when pulled away. The gown was cartridge pleated and it may have been done so at the same time though. Part of the stitching required that you loop back to previous pleats to accomplish the give. -----Original Message----- Subject: RE: [h-cost] Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt attachment? I've heard "accordion stitch" used to describe a "cartridge pleat". I suspect they might be one in the same. Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 11:31:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66FVlRM010096 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:31:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66FV7d5000324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:31:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66FV44g015002; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:31:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from asmtp-a063f29.pas.sa.earthlink.net (asmtp-a063f29.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.120.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66FUc4g014691 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:30:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.138.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.138] helo=HELENPINTO) by asmtp-a063f29.pas.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bhru1-0005Sq-Vz for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:30:38 -0700 Message-ID: <009e01c4636e$2e493ac0$8a399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407021957.i62Jv6ZG065026@sabre.goldsword.com> <40EA90A6.80108@ncsu.edu> Subject: Nun Portraits, Was Re: [h-cost] Atlanta museums? Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:30:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef28b04c74d8c00d203e451efb04192c61350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.138 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > David, who is still hunting for 17th century Italian nuns and finding none. > Go to the Web Gallery of Art http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/welcome.html and look up the following paintings: Andrea Sacchi, "The Three Magdalenes"- there's a 17th Carmelite nun (Italian) on the right. Philippe de Champaigne, "Ex Voto"- there are two Jansenist nuns in the portrait, probably French. Hope this helps, -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 11:42:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66FgdRM010144 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:42:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Fepd5001379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:40:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Feo4g022896; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:40:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66FeW4g022652 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:40:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from david_serxner@ncsu.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i66FeTNB024831 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24545-08 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ncsu.edu (acq-gss4421.lib.ncsu.edu [152.1.24.106]) by uni09mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i66FeTla024820 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40EAC7ED.9030609@ncsu.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:40:29 -0400 From: David Serxner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Nun Portraits, Was Re: [h-cost] Atlanta museums? References: <200407021957.i62Jv6ZG065026@sabre.goldsword.com> <40EA90A6.80108@ncsu.edu> <009e01c4636e$2e493ac0$8a399b04@HELENPINTO> In-Reply-To: <009e01c4636e$2e493ac0$8a399b04@HELENPINTO> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks!!!!! I have a reproduction of the Philippe de Champaigne portrait someplace. I cannot figure out why I did not think of him off the bat. David Helen Pinto wrote: >>David, who is still hunting for 17th century Italian nuns and finding >> >> >none. > > >Go to the Web Gallery of Art http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/welcome.html and >look up the following paintings: > >Andrea Sacchi, "The Three Magdalenes"- there's a 17th Carmelite nun >(Italian) on the right. > >Philippe de Champaigne, "Ex Voto"- there are two Jansenist nuns in the >portrait, probably French. > >Hope this helps, > -Helen/Aidan > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > -- David Serxner NCSU Libraries Acquisitions Dept. Serials and Electronic Resources Campus Box 7111 Raleigh, NC 27695-7111 919-513-3355 office 919-515-7292 fax _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 12:26:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66GQnRM014605 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:26:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66GPjd5006522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:25:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66GPe4g059301; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:25:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66GPa4g059230 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:25:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA10755 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:25:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:25:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <98.f03f39b.2e1c11ff@aol.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Alexandra's sister Dagmar, became Czarina of Russia(wife of Alexander III)and also was known for her love of fashion. Elisabeth of Austria was possibly the most self-aware fashion-aware of rich and famous European royal consorts of the last half of the 19th c. Her naturally very full head of hair was very influencial in setting a fashion for wigs, braids, and switches for those women with less abundant tresses. Elisabeth dieted obsessively and made her appearance all--many facets of her life and personality were echoes of those of Princess Diana. Cindy Abel -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:33 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra In a message dated 7/6/04 9:12:16 AM Central Daylight Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: Alexandra and her sisters used to sew their own clothes while they were prinsesses in Denmark. The court was poor and very economminal. Perhaps, but that was not the case when she married the Prince of Wales. To quote from "Victorian Fashion in Photographs": "Princess Alexandra's beauty and popularity made whatever she wore a model for millions of Englishwomen of all classes...The bride wore white satin which, according to the Illustrated London News was 'trimmed with chatelaines of orange blossoms, myrtle and bouffants of tulle with Honiton lace; the train of silver moire antique' similarly trimmed. The dress was made by Mrs. James of London and may have been paid for by the King of the Belgians. He had wanted to give the bride a Worth dress but political considerations prevailed." The book contains several examples of the many commemorative photographs which were issued to the public of the Princess of Wales; it is only natural that following these, she became a fashion trendsetter. The book also speculates that the slender Princess line dresses were named for Alexandra, having started the trend. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 12:32:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66GWDRM014645 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:32:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66GTrd5006981 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:29:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66GTn4g062664; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:29:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66GTj4g062602 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:29:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26023 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:33:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:33:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEE7@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Teddy wrote: > Robin, would you happen to have dates for these images? All are from the Bibliotheque Nationale de France site. > > http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i2_0063.jpg This one's from Grandes Chroniques de France (BNF, FR 2813), 14th c. according to the BNF website. I have another source that puts the date of that ms at around 1380, which sounds like a good guess to me. To see the whole ms, go to the BNF's virtual exhibitions page at http://www.bnf.fr/site_bnf_eng/expos/index.htm and click on "The Age of Charles V," which will bring you to a list of several manuscripts, including this one. > > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000115 > > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000098 > > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000107 These are from Boccacio's "Legends of Good Women" (BNF Richelieu Manuscrits Fr. 598). BNF calls it 15th c., and I've found no better date; I'd put it around 1420 myself. You can see the whole ms here, and it's a beaut: http://gallica.bnf.fr/Catalogue/NoticesInd/MAN01042.htm > > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100014&I=000013 That's another Grandes Chroniques de France (BNF Fr. 73), which BNF unhelpfully labels "14th-15th c." See the whole thing here: http://gallica.bnf.fr/Catalogue/NoticesInd/MAN00765.htm And a full list of BNF's medieval manuscripts is here: http://gallica.bnf.fr/themes/ImaMA2.htm --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 12:38:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66GcERM014699 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:38:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Gbdd5007820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:37:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66GbP4g068883; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:37:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web50608.mail.yahoo.com (web50608.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.95]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i66GbC4g068634 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:37:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040706163658.65451.qmail@web50608.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.49.146.76] by web50608.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:36:58 EDT Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:36:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathy Page To: Historical Costume List MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/BellaNani1560.jpg Paolo Veronese, 1560: La Bella Nani Yes.. Im back to poking at this painting once again. I'm STILL working on the research stage of this. Something got my attention and I don't know how to approach this niggling suspicion. Many here are by far more knowledgable than I on this topic and thought someone here could tell me if I am wandering way off the path, or have something here. I got to looking at Veroneses' other paintings, looking for other similar examples of this disproportionately sized jewelry, thinking perhaps this artist had a tendancy toward flights of fancy. He most certainly does, but generally in the context of his mytholigical or allegorical paintings. i.e.: (all paintings without a link can be found at: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/v/veronese/religio1/index.html) The Marriage at Cana (detail) 1563 The Marriage of St Catherine c. 1575 Ceres Renders Homage to Venice 1575 The Family of Darius before Alexander The Finding of Moses c. 1570-75 Interestingly, when I looked at the purpose of these articles of adornment, they are fairly consistent: They are supporting a cloak or cape of some variety. This puts Bella Nani into line as well, since the pauldrons are apparently holding her diaphanous ropa from falling from her shoulders. But, unlike these, she is not set into a scene of some dramatic format. Nor does the size of her adornment compare; she has the lions' share of goods by comparison. The one that comes close to competing is Marriage at Cana, the bride wears a mantle of some variety that for its visual weight compares. I looked at portraiture work and found that his sitters are all adorned in similar manner: jewelry, although most often there is not ostentatious, and is proportionate and appropriate to the composition of the painting. i.e.: Portrait of a Venetian Woman Portrait of a Man c. 1560 Portrait of Agostino Barbarigo Detail of the Supper at Emmaus [with the Priuli Family], ca. 1559 (http://www.nd.edu/~isla/ISLA/webpages/thearts/provosts/Veronese-PriuliFamily.detai.gif) Portrait of Countess Livia da Porto Thiene and her daughter Porzia. ca. 1550. (http://www.artcom.com/Museums/vs/sz/422.jpg) For the most part, the patrician portraits all have backgrounds as well, suggesting various and sundry things about the sitter. Even if spartan, there is something other than plain black. Bella Nani does not. She floats in space, with only one reference for the viewer - the little bit of table or trunk or whatever under her hand. And then I found this one: Portrait of a Venetian Lady as St. Agnes, c. 1580 (http://www.wfu.edu/academics/art/gallery/gall_nov84.jpg) That last one is equally curious, in that this could be suggesting the sitter of Bella Nani is in the same vein - a patrician dudded up to represent a saint of some kind. However the background representation differs once again. Since there is no background detail nor any dramatic sweeps of textile in Bella Nani, just these big chunks of jewelry strapped to her, I can't see anything that might represent this idea. Also as I trivial side note, the women in each portrait have incredibly similar appearance despite having been painted 20 years apart. Therein lies my first question - can anyone who knows more about saint iconography see anything that might lean it in this direction? Then I read this: http://epublishingcorp.com/articlesRaichel/Art-Research/N-corteg.htm And thought okay.. although Veronese is mentioned in the footnotes and not a main feature of this idealised "quattrocento pin up girl" fad, perhaps this one is his dabbling into creating the Perfect Woman. This painting fits the essential criteria set out here as well. Next question: if this seems the most likely of the lot, which I am feeling that it is, mostly for the lack of background detail (he obvoiously wanted significant amount of attention drawn to her) would this painting be considered appropriate and useful reference material for the jewelry? The costuming is not truly in question, it matches many, many other paintings, but those huge chunks of gold do not. What are the opinions held out there? Kathy --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 12:58:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66GwlRM014762 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:58:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Guvd5009949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:56:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Guq4g084692; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:56:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51309.mail.yahoo.com (web51309.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.175]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i66Gts4g083801 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:56:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040706165543.61918.qmail@web51309.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.172.50] by web51309.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:55:43 PDT Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:55:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <65.2d9c541c.2e1c1339@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've seen late 1850's dresses cut 'en princesse' in, iirc, Godey's, so I tend to doubt the naming after Princess Alexandra. Ann in CT --- AnnBWass@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/6/2004 10:33:09 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > The book also speculates > that the slender Princess line dresses were named > for Alexandra, having > started > the trend. > I thought Worth developed the princess line? > Ann Wass __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 13:45:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66HjjRM015061 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:45:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Hj9d5015099 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:45:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Hix4g023852; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:44:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Hiu4g023721 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:44:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from reddawn.net (js.reddawn.net [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256314264A for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:07:42 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <40EAE512.3030402@reddawn.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:44:50 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] FWD: Empire Line Dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO All, I've had a request that is outside my area of knowledge , so I thought I would pass it along to the folks here. Anyone who feels they can fulfill her request is welcome to respond to her. Dawn ----- Subj: Empire Line Dress Date: 04-07-05 22:29:59 EDT From: WhitbywitchUK@aol.com hello there :) I have to complement you on your lovely work. I am looking for an authentic English/Napoleonic dress. It has to be in a fabric which could be aquired at that time. I am a large size. (English 22). Do you make such things? And if so, approximately how much would it cost me? I unfortunately am with a group who insist EVERYTHING is authentic. And it is also unfortunate that my sewing sucks. Everyone else looks so much better than me :(. Oh by the way I am in the UK. Hope you are well kindest regards Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 13:51:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66HpvRM015857 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:51:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66HmWd5015460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:48:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Hm74g026468; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:48:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound3.mail.tds.net (outbound3.mail.tds.net [216.170.230.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Hlt4g026225 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:47:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bobd2@tellink.net) Received: from host (h69-21-249-157.69-21.unk.tds.net [69.21.249.157]) by outbound3.mail.tds.net (8.12.10/8.12.2) with SMTP id i66Hlm3h004332 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:47:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002401c46381$5a0933a0$0201a8c0@domain> From: "bobd2" To: References: <200407061700.i66Gxw4h087260@net.indra.com> Subject: RE: [h-cost] Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:47:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 07:59:25 -0700 > From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" > Subject: RE: [h-cost] Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt > attachment? > To: "'Historical Costume'" > Message-ID: <000501c46369$d42a14a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Hmm, I don't think so the way this gal described it. It literally stretched > and bounced back to the waistband (or bodice) when pulled away. The gown > was cartridge pleated and it may have been done so at the same time though. > Part of the stitching required that you loop back to previous pleats to > accomplish the give. I have a suspicion that this might be something like herringbone stitch, but without the backstitching. Possibly a very long herringbone stitch with silk thread, would have the elasticity to bounce back. I've had good luck with that stitch, occasionally too good and it took a bit of fussing to shift everything back where it belonged. I've never used it for anything as heavy as a skirt, however, and I don't know how it would behave. Bob Dorr-Robert of Stonemarche _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 13:57:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66HvuRM015908 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:57:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Hu4d5016238 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:56:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Htf4g032681; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:55:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Htb4g032559 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 11:55:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i66IQA5c006386 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:26:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i66IQ9B2006385 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:26:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407061826.i66IQ9B2006385@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Atlanta museums? In-Reply-To: <40EA90A6.80108@ncsu.edu> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Charlotte has the Mint Museum, which has a nice collection of vintage > fashion. > > http://www.mintmuseum.org/ > > And through the 19th of September they have an exhibition called > "Fashions of the Crinoline Era." I am going to be there this weekend > for a wedding, so I am going to try and stop to see it. Way cool! Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 14:17:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66IHXRM016063 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:17:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66I8xd5017767 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:08:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66I8t4g043916; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:08:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66I8q4g043772 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:08:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.103.49cd4eb6 (18403) for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:08:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <103.49cd4eb6.2e1c44a8@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:08:40 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/6/04 11:57:36 AM Central Daylight Time, elvestoorder@yahoo.com writes: I've seen late 1850's dresses cut 'en princesse' in, iirc, Godey's, so I tend to doubt the naming after Princess Alexandra. Ann in CT I think it depends on what the term is referring to. In the book, the Princess dresses that they are talking about are from the 1880's, and are very different from the "en princesse" dresses of earlier decades. In any case, again, the book simply says that they "may" have been named for Alexandra, it does not state that they were. It's one of those things that we'll never really know; how do you determine for sure who coined the term "pet en lair" or what they were thinking of when they did it? -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 14:58:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66Iw1RM016249 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:58:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66IrDd5021645 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:53:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Ir24g079544; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:53:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Iqv4g079414 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:52:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.67.2d42b938 (18403) for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:52:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <67.2d42b938.2e1c4f00@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:52:48 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/6/04 9:51:55 AM Central Daylight Time, cley@juno.com writes: "What are chatelaines? Where were they and the bouffants on the dress? Arlys, who knows what a medieval chatelaine is, and an SCA one, but not a costuming one ;)" Technically speaking, an 18th or 19th century chatelaine was a jewelry piece. They're pins or clips that would be attached to the front of a lady's gown, and suspended from them would have been various household implements, their practicality depending entirely on the personality and position of the wearer. They're extremely expensive and very collectible now; one of my first enormous and totally self indulgent expenditures, should I ever win the lottery, will be on a large collection of antique chatelaines. An excellent example of an 18th century chatelaine can be viewed here, where it was more of a case that contained all the implements (at the bargain price of 6,500 pounds): http://www.anthonygreen.com/detailofetuigold1859.htm And then this is a spectacular 19th century version, where the implements were suspended from individual chains and would often include watches, match safes, stamp cases, needle cases, little purses, tiny scissors in special holders, tatting shuttles, and other extremely neat things: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=52611&item=4909953189&r d=1 Man, I wanna buy that one so bad I could just cry LOL. In any case, with the description of Alexandra's wedding gown, I'm not entirely sure what the newspaper report meant in using the word. Since the cold definition of chatelaine includes ornamental chains worn at the waist, I would guess that the reporter was just trying to use a term that was fancier than "loops of flowers." In the commemorative photograph of the gown you can see loops of orange blossoms and myrtle at the front of the gown as well as what they would have termed "bouffants" of tulle and lace. Here's the photo posted on the internet so you can see it, although it's somewhat obscured by her lace veil and the fact that white simply did not photograph well at the time: http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/pwwed.jpg Boy, when people said she was beautiful, they were NOT flattering. She really was. That website has a spectacular collection of photographs of Victoria and her family. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 14:59:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66IxrRM016258 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:59:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66IvMd5022083 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:57:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66IvK4g083210; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:57:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66IvE4g083114 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:57:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i66JRm5c007194 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:27:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i66JRlc1007193 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:27:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:27:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407061927.i66JRlc1007193@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000115 > > > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000098 > > > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000107 > > These are from Boccacio's "Legends of Good Women" (BNF Richelieu > Manuscrits Fr. 598). BNF calls it 15th c., and I've found no better date; > I'd put it around 1420 myself. You can see the whole ms here, and it's a > beaut: > http://gallica.bnf.fr/Catalogue/NoticesInd/MAN01042.htm Wow! There are some really Way Cool Stuff in that manuscript. :-) In Image 105 http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000105 it looks like that houppellande buttons?/ opens all the way down the front. Is this "merely" trim or is she wearing it as an overgarment -- like we would a coat. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 15:05:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66J59RM016285 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:05:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66J3Ad5022562 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:03:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66J374g087879; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:03:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66J344g087770 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:03:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gia_gavino@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.113 ([204.127.197.113]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004070619025901300jdhhre>; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:02:59 +0000 Received: from [24.16.242.58] by 204.127.197.113; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:02:56 +0000 From: gia_gavino@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:02:56 +0000 Message-Id: <070620041902.20341.40EAF7600008390800004F752200745672010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Z2lhX2dhdmlub0Bjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yeah, I did miss it. I was in the middle of a roomie moving out and he took the computer, so I think I lost a few messages in the transfering. Thank goodness someone else forwarded the email to me! Bless her! -- Slan go foill Emer óTighearnaigh Átha An Ri -------------- Original message -------------- > You must have missed it somehow, because I got it.... > --sue > > gia_gavino@comcast.net wrote: > > > *puzzeled look* Huh!??? Wait a minute! Did something happened to my > > email and I didn't get the post with the awesome stuff? Oh, please > > tell me it ain't so! > > > > (beginning to suffer from intense researchaholic withdrawls...) -- > > Slan go foill Emer óTighearnaigh Átha An Ri > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 15:23:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66JN1RM016365 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:23:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66IIfd5018736 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:18:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66IIT4g051834; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:18:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66IIM4g051699 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:18:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01224 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:18:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] FWD: Empire Line Dress Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:18:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <40EAE512.3030402@reddawn.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Try www.longago.com It is a U.S. supplier of patterns and there are a few patterns for ladies for the 1790-1820 era. There should be British companies that carry patterns as well. Also try these books: Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion: Vol 2 for scale patterns of actual dresses of that era and Jean Hunnisett's Period Costume for Stage and Screen: 1800-1909 for scale patterns to fit the modern figure. The cheapest bet is to buy one of the Simplicity, McCall's, or Butterick historic patterns (look for an "Empire" styled costume)in your size and use the Arnold and Hunnisett books to alter the cut(especially in the bodice and sleeves) I did this years ago to alter a modern "historic" McCall's pattern to copy a 16th century pattern in Arnold's Pattern's of Fashion: Vol 3. I'm hopeless at math and it took hours(first alter basic bodice to fit short me, then redraw according to Arnold's 1/8" scale diagram). I use sew-in interfacing when altering patterns and it works much nicer for fit(you can baste everything together to check fit, it irons and lays on fabric much more accurately than tissue patterns, and you can use them more than once). Good luck Cindy Abel -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Dawn Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 12:45 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] FWD: Empire Line Dress All, I've had a request that is outside my area of knowledge , so I thought I would pass it along to the folks here. Anyone who feels they can fulfill her request is welcome to respond to her. Dawn ----- Subj: Empire Line Dress Date: 04-07-05 22:29:59 EDT From: WhitbywitchUK@aol.com hello there :) I have to complement you on your lovely work. I am looking for an authentic English/Napoleonic dress. It has to be in a fabric which could be aquired at that time. I am a large size. (English 22). Do you make such things? And if so, approximately how much would it cost me? I unfortunately am with a group who insist EVERYTHING is authentic. And it is also unfortunate that my sewing sucks. Everyone else looks so much better than me :(. Oh by the way I am in the UK. Hope you are well kindest regards Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 15:23:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66JNQRM016368 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:23:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66JMpd5024614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:22:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66JMl4g004013; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:22:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66JMi4g003954 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:22:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BhvWb-000DLm-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:22:41 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:21:21 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra References: <98.f03f39b.2e1c11ff@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <98.f03f39b.2e1c11ff@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I love the idea that who made your wedding dress could have sparked an international incident! Jean Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote >In a message dated 7/6/04 9:12:16 AM Central Daylight Time, >drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: >Alexandra and her sisters used to sew their own clothes while they were >prinsesses in Denmark. >The court was poor and very economminal. >Perhaps, but that was not the case when she married the Prince of Wales. To >quote from "Victorian Fashion in Photographs": > >"Princess Alexandra's beauty and popularity made whatever she wore a model >for millions of Englishwomen of all classes...The bride wore white >satin which, >according to the Illustrated London News was 'trimmed with chatelaines of >orange blossoms, myrtle and bouffants of tulle with Honiton lace; the train of >silver moire antique' similarly trimmed. The dress was made by Mrs. James of >London and may have been paid for by the King of the Belgians. He had >wanted to >give the bride a Worth dress but political considerations prevailed." > >The book contains several examples of the many commemorative photographs >which were issued to the public of the Princess of Wales; it is only >natural that >following these, she became a fashion trendsetter. The book also speculates >that the slender Princess line dresses were named for Alexandra, having >started >the trend. > >-Tiffany >Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. >******************************* >Reflections*of*Worth >http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 15:23:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66JNmRM016378 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:23:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66JJFd5024224 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:19:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66JJ94g000954; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:19:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66JJ64g000847 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:19:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27122 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:22:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:22:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <200407061927.i66JRlc1007193@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > In Image 105 > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000105 it > looks like that houppellande buttons?/ opens all the way down the > front. Is this "merely" trim or is she wearing it as an overgarment > -- like we would a coat. I don't see buttons, but houppelandes developed as overgarments from earlier versions that sometimes opened down the entire front. Houppelandes routinely open at the neck in center front, and given their likely construction, there's no reason why they couldn't open all the way down. Or the center front seam could be sewn as a last step in assembling the garment, in such a way as to expose a bit of the fur lining ornamentally. In any case, you see examples of the full-length center-front attachment/opening occasionally on overgowns of several styles, both before, during, and after this period. Overgowns of this sort (including the houppelande and its predecessors/descendents) served the function of what we would think of as a coat. In an era when indoor weather was a lot like outdoor weather, there was less distinction between "outdoor" and "indoor" clothing, because your extra-warmth layer (such as a fur-lined overgown) would be worn both indoors and out. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 15:50:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66JoZRM016625 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:50:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Jmfd5027491 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:48:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Jmb4g025272; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:48:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66JmX4g025199 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 13:48:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i66KJ85c007814 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:19:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i66KJ8QJ007813 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:19:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407062019.i66KJ8QJ007813@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > In Image 105 > > http://gallica.bnf.fr/scripts/mediator.exe?F=C&L=08100285&I=000105 it > > looks like that houppellande buttons?/ opens all the way down the > > front. Is this "merely" trim or is she wearing it as an overgarment > > -- like we would a coat. > > I don't see buttons, but houppelandes developed as overgarments from > earlier versions that sometimes opened down the entire front. Houppelandes > routinely open at the neck in center front, and given their likely > construction, there's no reason why they couldn't open all the way down. > Or the center front seam could be sewn as a last step in assembling the > garment, in such a way as to expose a bit of the fur lining ornamentally. > In any case, you see examples of the full-length center-front > attachment/opening occasionally on overgowns of several styles, both > before, during, and after this period. Well, in truth, I didn't see buttons either, but it was a smallish illumination -- and you *could* see the fur trim/lining. I actually think this is my first "full-length front-opening" illustration that I've ever seen! :-) > > Overgowns of this sort (including the houppelande and its > predecessors/descendents) served the function of what we would think of as > a coat. In an era when indoor weather was a lot like outdoor weather, > there was less distinction between "outdoor" and "indoor" clothing, > because your extra-warmth layer (such as a fur-lined overgown) would be > worn both indoors and out. I makes sense. There was a lady at our Midwinter Arts and Sciences event in a teal wale-less cordury lined in a gold >something< bag-sleeved houppelande as her outergarment. Gorgeous and warm to boot. Jerusha > > --Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 17:41:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66Lf7RM017218 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:41:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Ld4d5010603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:39:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66Lcs4g018343; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:38:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from whowhere.com (in02-fes1.whowhere.com [209.202.220.218]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i66Lcq4g018223 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:38:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@eudoramail.com) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by whowhere.com; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:38:33 -0000 To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:38:33 0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Priority: 3 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mary Tudor Exhibition X-Sender-Ip: 130.88.96.66 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO When & where??? Please do tell... Cheers, Danielle --------- Original Message --------- >There's also a very lovely conference on Textile Cultures: Spain and >England from 1500, on the 22nd and 23rd of July - please come if you're >in the area! > > >On Saturday, July 3, 2004, at 03:23 am, Sue Clemenger wrote: > >> Drooool! >> I wonder about the bit, though, where they were talking about those >> possibly being her coronation robes....Am I misremembering, or was >> there a bit in one of the wardrobe rolls included in QEUnlocked that >> talked about Mary's *purple* coronation robes? >> --sue, who could easily be completely off base with this one.... Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 18:00:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66M0sRM017290 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:00:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66LvJd5012471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:57:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66LvH4g033212; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:57:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66LvE4g033151 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:57:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD2A2BDE9 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:57:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p182.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.216.184]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D63BC5EB for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:57:11 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:57:26 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20040706163658.65451.qmail@web50608.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Just a thought, Her jewelry is kind of reminiscent of a carnival or festival attire. or she is trying to show off how rich she is. -----Original Message----- http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/BellaNani1560.jpg Paolo Veronese, 1560: La Bella Nani Yes.. Im back to poking at this painting once again. I'm STILL working on the research stage of this. Something got my attention and I don't know how to approach this niggling suspicion. Many here are by far more knowledgable than I on this topic and thought someone here could tell me if I am wandering way off the path, or have something here. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 19:33:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i66NXNRM017716 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 19:33:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66NOsd5020673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:24:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i66NOn4g097221; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:24:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i66NOl4g097144 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 17:24:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/Ok/cwUFd3Ns+Pjxu1jlznS0= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZV3E7GY; Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:24:38 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:10:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trendsetters Alexandra Message-ID: <20040706.162431.1608.2.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-47,50-91 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks! Pics are wonderful. My birthday's in 2 days, can I have one? ;) Arlys On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:52:48 EDT Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > In a message dated 7/6/04 9:51:55 AM Central Daylight Time, > cley@juno.com > writes: > > "What are chatelaines? Where were they and the bouffants on the > dress? > > Arlys, who knows what a medieval chatelaine is, and an SCA one, but > not a > costuming one ;)" > > Technically speaking, an 18th or 19th century chatelaine was a > jewelry piece. > They're pins or clips that would be attached to the front of a > lady's gown, > and suspended from them would have been various household > implements, their > practicality depending entirely on the personality and position of > the wearer. > They're extremely expensive and very collectible now; one of my > first enormous > and totally self indulgent expenditures, should I ever win the > lottery, will > be on a large collection of antique chatelaines. > > An excellent example of an 18th century chatelaine can be viewed > here, where > it was more of a case that contained all the implements (at the > bargain price > of 6,500 pounds): > > http://www.anthonygreen.com/detailofetuigold1859.htm > > And then this is a spectacular 19th century version, where the > implements > were suspended from individual chains and would often include > watches, match > safes, stamp cases, needle cases, little purses, tiny scissors in > special holders, > tatting shuttles, and other extremely neat things: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=52611&item=4909953 189&r > d=1 > > Man, I wanna buy that one so bad I could just cry LOL. > > In any case, with the description of Alexandra's wedding gown, I'm > not > entirely sure what the newspaper report meant in using the word. > Since the cold > definition of chatelaine includes ornamental chains worn at the > waist, I would > guess that the reporter was just trying to use a term that was > fancier than > "loops of flowers." In the commemorative photograph of the gown > you can see > loops of orange blossoms and myrtle at the front of the gown as well > as what they > would have termed "bouffants" of tulle and lace. Here's the photo > posted on > the internet so you can see it, although it's somewhat obscured by > her lace > veil and the fact that white simply did not photograph well at the > time: > > http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/pwwed.jpg > > Boy, when people said she was beautiful, they were NOT flattering. > She > really was. That website has a spectacular collection of > photographs of Victoria > and her family. > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 6 20:46:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i670kIRM018001 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:46:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i670iOd5026819 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:44:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i670iG4g045183; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:44:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i670iE4g045146 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:44:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a252.in-tch.com [66.62.107.52]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i670Je621679 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:19:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40EB4847.5030503@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:48:07 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yeah. My first thought was some sort of masque costume--not from the dress, which seems pretty similar to other Venetian gowns of that time, but from the gauzy covering she's also wearing. That doesn't look familiar at all... --sue otsisto wrote: > Just a thought, Her jewelry is kind of reminiscent of a carnival or festival > attire. > or she is trying to show off how rich she is. > > > > -----Original Message----- > http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/BellaNani1560.jpg > Paolo Veronese, 1560: La Bella Nani > > Yes.. Im back to poking at this painting once again. I'm STILL working on > the research stage of this. Something got my attention and I don't know how > to approach this niggling suspicion. Many here are by far more knowledgable > than I on this topic and thought someone here could tell me if I am > wandering way off the path, or have something here. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 01:38:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i675cBRM019174 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:38:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i675Z0d5016045 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:35:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i675Yr4g092460; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:34:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i675Yq4g092436 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:34:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-206-244.cvip.net [129.8.206.244]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 575142E0A for ; Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040706221114.01fbd648@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:26:17 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703134216.00ba91e8@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Katie & De, I am going to comment on my own experiences with Fantasy Fashions Men's Paned Slops and Breeches (such as seen here http://www.grannd.com/images/ff4.jpg ). Stay away from it! I liked the doublet in it's basic form, so I thought the slops and breeches would be as easy to make. I needed something relatively quick to make, and found it is fairly quick to make, but not worth making. My husband ended up ripping his basic breeches the first day he wore them. The problem is basically you have to create part of the pants yourself. While they tell you how to adjust for the waist, they do not tell you how to adjust for the crotch length or rise, so unless you make pants and know exactly what you are doing, it isn't worth the pattern price. And somehow in the directions I followed (and I am usually good at following directions), the front ended up like 2" longer than the back. I know now that they can be off by 1/2" to ease and leave a little room for a man's package, but 2" is just way too much room. And the slops pattern uses the basic breeches pattern, so the pattern set is just not worthy, even if you are interested in the slops. And a good friend warned me about some issues with the slops, like an extra/odd piece that had her fiddling with the pattern much longer than she needed to. I have since learned a lot more on how to make pants for men and women, and will now make my own patterns for his next pair of breeches/slops. Or I may go with Margo's, as I have heard great things about her patterns. Kimiko PS, If you want a hat like Lord Wessex's, try Lynn McMaster's Italian Bonnet hat pattern, view C. I am working on View B of same pattern, and her notes state that view C is similar to Lord Wessex's hats in that movie. Unfortunately, she doesn't give a picture of View C. At 04:44 PM 7/3/2004 -0500, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >Obligatory costume content -- He wants an Elizabethan outfit like Lord >Wessex wore in his 'duel' with Shakespeare inside the theater in the movie >"Shakespeare in Love". It's going to be a couple years before I'm skilled >enough to tackle that project . > >Katie > >There are at least 2 men's elizabethan patterns out there. >Margo Anderson's is the one I remember off the top of my head as I hear a >lot of good about the patterns. You can have a look on her website, Just >google Margo Anderson's patterns and go from there. >Alter Years >Fantasy Fashions (?) > >De Kimiko Small Owner ~ DreamTime Studios http://www.dreamtime-studios.com Fresno, CA, USA "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 03:21:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i677LoRM012785 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:21:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i677L0d5021648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:21:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i677Kv4g043299; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:20:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i677Kt4g043280 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:20:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D121D398 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 02:20:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p481.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.217.227]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id BDE99D4A3 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 02:20:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 02:21:08 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040706221114.01fbd648@64.87.54.245> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- Hi Katie & De, I am going to comment on my own experiences with Fantasy Fashions Men's Paned Slops and Breeches (such as seen here http://www.grannd.com/images/ff4.jpg ). Stay away from it! I liked the doublet in it's basic form, so I thought the slops and breeches would be as easy to make. I needed something relatively quick to make, and found it is fairly quick to make, but not worth making. My husband ended up ripping his basic breeches the first day he wore them. ********* Are you sure it was the pattern, it sounds more like you have an impressive husband. :)lol De Sorry couldn't pass it up. Going back to the alcove now. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 03:48:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i677mKRM012846 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:48:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i677kYd5022874 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:46:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i677kV4g054542; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:46:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i677kD4g054413 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 01:46:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004070707460801100i7pi1e>; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:46:08 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:46:08 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040422001203.00b0ea40@64.87.54.245> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm making a trip to Orlando and Key West, Florida in late November/December and I was wondering if there are any suggestions of things/places worth seeing while there outside of the regular touristy things. I'm thinking a day or two not in the sun would probably be good on the fair skinned redhead. Molly ~There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. I think I tripped over it a few years back _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 05:10:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i679AJRM013721 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:10:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6799kd5027077 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:09:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6799d4g093185; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:09:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6799a4g093142 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:09:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:08:15 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEFB@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Another painting to find... Thread-Index: AcRj58FcG7nrjqNfQ6Oj4UrSp9jebgAGgOWA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Teddy wrote: > > > Robin, would you happen to have dates for these images? > > All are from the Bibliotheque Nationale de France site. Ribuin, you are an absolute treasure! Many thanks Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 05:29:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i679T9RM013774 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:29:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i679RNd5028671 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:27:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i679RH4g001494; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:27:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i679RF4g001471 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:27:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:25:57 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt attachment? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEFD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt attachment? Thread-Index: AcRjhXKQCYSxnzh5TRO0MkYvsiCpPAAfr/ZA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Hmm, I don't think so the way this gal described it. It literally stretched > > and bounced back to the waistband (or bodice) when pulled away. The > > gown was cartridge pleated and it may have been done so at the same > > time though. > > Part of the stitching required that you loop back to previous pleats > > to accomplish the give. > > I have a suspicion that this might be something like > herringbone stitch, but without the backstitching. Possibly a > very long herringbone stitch with silk thread, would have the > elasticity to bounce back. I was thinking the same thing. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 05:32:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i679WqRM013789 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:32:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i679WId5028810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:32:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i679WH4g003795; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:32:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i679WF4g003785 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 03:32:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:30:58 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEFE@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? Thread-Index: AcRj58FcG7nrjqNfQ6Oj4UrSp9jebgAHQeQw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > The costuming is not > truly in question, it matches many, many other paintings, but > those huge chunks of gold do not. What are the opinions held > out there? Have you considered that it might just be a portrait of a woman whose taste in jewelry runs to the "loud and tacky" end of the market? Just a thought from one whose taste in clothes runs in that direction. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 07:10:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67BAIRM014182 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:10:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67B8Kd5003618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:08:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67B8F4g048727; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:08:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from uni07mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni07mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.170]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67B8B4g048695 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:08:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from david_serxner@ncsu.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uni07mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i67B85hx004911 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uni07mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (uni07mr.unity.ncsu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04836-02 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ncsu.edu (acq-gss4421.lib.ncsu.edu [152.1.24.106]) by uni07mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i67B83Bq004907 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40EBD996.60307@ncsu.edu> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:08:06 -0400 From: David Serxner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I liked the Audobon House. It is the place he stayed in the Keys whilst working on BoA. It has a small baby elephant folio (if I remember correctly) in the parlour and most of the original furniture. There is also an old fort that is pretty cool. I was underwhelmed by Hemingway's House. Too many people and not enough room. David Molly Boone wrote: >I'm making a trip to Orlando and Key West, Florida in late November/December >and I was wondering if there are any suggestions of things/places worth >seeing while there outside of the regular touristy things. > >I'm thinking a day or two not in the sun would probably be good on the fair >skinned redhead. > >Molly > ~There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. > I think I tripped over it a few years back > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > -- David Serxner NCSU Libraries Acquisitions Dept. Serials and Electronic Resources Campus Box 7111 Raleigh, NC 27695-7111 919-513-3355 office 919-515-7292 fax _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 08:05:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67C5ZRM014421 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:05:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67Bvcd5005737 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:57:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67Bvb4g072811; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:57:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt15.ihug.co.nz (grunt15.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67BvX4g072658 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:57:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p1-nas10.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.212.1] by grunt15.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BiB3A-0002M5-00; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:57:21 +1200 Message-ID: <008f01c46419$899c5320$01d4adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEFE@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:57:10 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Have you considered that it might just be a portrait of a woman whose > taste in jewelry runs to the "loud and tacky" end of the market? > > Just a thought from one whose taste in clothes runs in that direction. You shock me Teddy! Not that my taste runs that way at all, no way no how.. ehem. Says she with the bright orange, the bright yellow, the bright greeny-blue (that no one has an adequte name for" and soon the bright turquoise and bright orange garb..... And the sky blue and mustard yellow bed throw that is just acging ot be made into some really tacky tudor... And as sporrf that there were indeed women with tastes that are perhaps not so refined, I offer this: http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/hwertingermariajocaba.htm michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 08:14:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67CEHRM014448 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:14:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67CCSd5006614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:12:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67CCL4g080253; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:12:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67CCI4g080218 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:12:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a213.in-tch.com [66.62.107.13]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i67Blj620776 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 05:47:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40EBE98D.5020708@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 06:16:13 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEFE@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FEFE@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO *snort* Do you still have that rainbow cat waistcoat? --sue, who just finished an orange-and-green boot sock on Monday! Teddy wrote: > >>The costuming is not >>truly in question, it matches many, many other paintings, but >>those huge chunks of gold do not. What are the opinions held >>out there? > > > Have you considered that it might just be a portrait of a woman whose > taste in jewelry runs to the "loud and tacky" end of the market? > > Just a thought from one whose taste in clothes runs in that direction. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 08:24:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67COjRM014474 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:24:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67COGd5007262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:24:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67COF4g086070; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:24:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41502.mail.yahoo.com (web41502.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i67COD4g086015 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:24:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celtic_dragonrider@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040707122403.84652.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.82.52.78] by web41502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 08:24:03 EDT Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:24:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Janet Renzetti Subject: Re: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Molly I know this may fall under typical touristy thing, but I am a Medieval Times addict and I find it worth paying the extra for the royalty seats (front 2 rows). Tournament on horseback while eating dinner by hands and being served by wenches and serfs. The knights are very easy on the eyes and sparks ctually fly off the weapons they use. It is expensive, but it is a one night thing. Also there are frequetly online coupons you can print, you ned to look under locations and choose the closest place to wear you will be and then the menu shows the specials and coupons. http://www.medievaltimes.com/ THe site itself is a little fun too with actua pictures. IF you pay more when you get there you can get knighted by the King. The guests don't wear costume, but I hear that some SCA people have come they dresses in appropriate atire for the century. Janet Molly Boone wrote: I'm making a trip to Orlando and Key West, Florida in late November/December and I was wondering if there are any suggestions of things/places worth seeing while there outside of the regular touristy things. I'm thinking a day or two not in the sun would probably be good on the fair skinned redhead. Molly ~There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. I think I tripped over it a few years back _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 09:31:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67DVNRM014801 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:31:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67DUpd5012348 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:30:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67DU64g022341; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:30:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web50604.mail.yahoo.com (web50604.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.91]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i67DTI4g021872 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:29:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040707132912.24301.qmail@web50604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.49.146.76] by web50604.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:29:12 EDT Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:29:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathy Page To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407070535.i675Zp4g092891@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Is something being represented by this painting? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I hadn't thought of that, to be honest. So many people before me had taken this painting at face value that it's treated as normal attire. Then I started looking around and realised there are many elements that aren't typical in this painting. My research into the Martedi Grassi has turned up the average masque costume of the period to have only sparse articles added to everyday wear additional to the mask and possibly a cape. From the get go that gauzy ropa had my attention as being out of place. Add to that she isn't wearing a partlet, so I took that ropa to more or less be it's filmy replacement. This is why I started leaning to the "Quattrocento Pin Up Girl" theory - the missing partlet, no veil or other headwear (aside from the pearl adornment), the light is intentionally brightest at her breast, the obvious attention being drawn having her hand at her breast, the whiteness of her face contrasted by the lush colour of her lips... everything about it leans toward a subtle eroticism. Which has equal application to a masque. Add a moretta mask to that and she's ready to play. If this is masque attire, then I can easily justify it being carved from wood then gilded. The actual construction of these items has had metal workers and goldsmiths I have spoken to stumped from the start. We have theorised this over and over. Everything from stiffened cloth of gold through to lost wax casting has been suggested. Thank you for your thoughts. This is deeply appreciated. Kathy Sue Clemenger Wrote: Yeah. My first thought was some sort of masque costume--not from the dress, which seems pretty similar to other Venetian gowns of that time, but from the gauzy covering she's also wearing. That doesn't look familiar at all... --sue Otsisto wrote: > Just a thought, Her jewelry is kind of reminiscent of a carnival or festival > attire. > or she is trying to show off how rich she is. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 10:12:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67ECcRM014952 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:12:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67E9Yd5015745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:09:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67E9T4g047493; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:09:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67E9Q4g047439 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:09:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01164 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:13:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:13:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] One (wo)man's stash... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ... is another's treasure, I hope. I've just listed a bunch of wools and silks on both the swapsell list and the costumetrader list. (We should probably merge those lists, but for now, I'm using both and we'll see where the responses come.) If you want to see my post, you can join either list at http://groups.yahoo.com . --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 11:19:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67FJKRM015455 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:19:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67FGtd5021808 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:16:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67FGk4g096755; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:16:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67FGh4g096710 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:16:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BiEA5-0001fp-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 08:16:41 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:16:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c46435$721cc970$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Special Ribbon source? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i67FJKRM015455 Status: RO Hi all. I am looking for this type of ribbon: http://www.renaissanceribbons.com/cgi-bin/ribbons.cgi?status=search&subcat=& type=KEYWORD&category=&ref=&keyword=&search_color=&price_range=&search_ref=4 1823&search_type=&display=6&id=1088709332-24.221.40.235-7144&lg=&ps= It is by a company called Renaissance Ribbon. (It may be imported from France) I am having a hard time finding a retailer (they have very few listed on the wholesale site) I am looking for it in white with the white rolled edge or white with the gold rolled edge. Have any of you run across it in your wanderings? Thanks, Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 12:21:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67GL8RM015892 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:21:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67GJ7d5028018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:19:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67GIx4g047879; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:18:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m25.mx.aol.com (imo-m25.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67GIt4g047790 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:18:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Widowweeds@cs.com) Received: from Widowweeds@cs.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1d6.258bb77b (15875) for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tlininn (mattdrury.net [68.142.30.226]) by air-id07.mx.aol.com (v100.23) with ESMTP id MAILINID72-3e0340ec225b225; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:18:35 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c4643e$0d8a1680$6401a8c0@tlininn> From: "Widow Weeds" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040707122403.84652.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:18:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-AOL-IP: 68.142.30.226 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > some SCA people have come they dresses in > appropriate atire for the century. Yes we have. Scored 100 bonus geek points for it too. :D _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 12:58:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67Gw2RM016110 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:58:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67Gtwd5001584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:55:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67Gtr4g078102; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:55:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67Gtn4g078048 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:55:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i67HQX5c018568 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:26:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i67HQW9q018567 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:26:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407071726.i67HQW9q018567@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida In-Reply-To: <001101c4643e$0d8a1680$6401a8c0@tlininn> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > some SCA people have come they dresses in > > appropriate atire for the century. > > Yes we have. Scored 100 bonus geek points for it too. :D Sounds like Fionnabhair and I should have gone there for supper during KWAS. We debated about it. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 14:22:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67IMLRM016482 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:22:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67IJ0d5009859 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:19:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67IIk4g046280; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:18:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67IIi4g046195 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:18:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from zski@ripco.com) Received: from ripco.com (cybil2.ripco.com [209.100.224.203]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i67IIZpk004547 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:18:36 -0500 (CDT) From: zski@ripco.com To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 13:18:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida X-Mailer: CWMail Web to Mail Gateway 2.8c, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <40ec3e7c.70f5.0@ripco.com> X-User-Info: 63.242.253.155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Last year, about 35 AtTheFaire.com peoples went to the Schaumburg IL one in costume. We harrassed the MC and generally made wonderful nuisances of ourselves. Got some odd looks from the staff when we pulled out our own feast-ware... I did feel kind of bad at one point. After the show in the lobby, we had lots of requests from people to take their picture with us. So here we all were hamming it up with the patrons, while several of the knights (including that day's 'winner') were standing over in the corner holding drinks and looking lost. Wendy Z frantically trying to finish a bodice for our new CD wench by tomorrow in Chicago, IL _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 16:44:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67KipRM017053 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:44:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67KYNeN023847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:36:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67KNp4g049055; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:23:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm29.prodigy.net (ylpvm29-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67KNi4g048990 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:23:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-93-162.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.93.162]) by ylpvm29.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i67KLtCg024314 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:23:19 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040707123929.025958a0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:41:21 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] famous trend-setters of 18th, 19th & 20th centuries ??? In-Reply-To: <1089003394.40e8df82c49c1@webmail.alabasterstyle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >The question is... who would fit this description for the late 1875-1900's?? Queen Alixandra, of England? Emperess Eugene, of France? Alice Rooseveldt, of America?? CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 17:22:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67LMdRM017187 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:22:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67LKWd5029331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:20:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67LKN4g096063; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:20:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav1.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.105]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67LKF4g095958 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:20:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:18:50 -0700 Received: from 66.130.163.130 by bay9-dav1.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:18:49 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.130.163.130] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703134216.00ba91e8@mail.katiesorchids.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20040706221114.01fbd648@64.87.54.245> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:21:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jul 2004 21:18:50.0348 (UTC) FILETIME=[FF74F2C0:01C46467] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > try Lynn McMaster's Italian Bonnet Where did her webpage go?? I can't find it! Help! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 18:08:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67M8GRM017369 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:08:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67M5td5004397 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:05:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67M5n4g033203; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:05:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav18.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.38.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67M5l4g033092 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:05:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:05:42 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav18.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 22:05:41 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "h-costume_indra_com" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:05:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:05:42 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jul 2004 22:05:42.0070 (UTC) FILETIME=[8B5FAD60:01C4646E] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Fw: [SCA-AE] Links: Medieval Shoes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i67M8GRM017369 Status: RO I thought some people on this list might be interested. Of course, several links are to Marc Carlson. Janet Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:59 PM Subject: [SCA-AE] Links: Medieval Shoes Greetings, everyone! This week's edition of the Links List is all about Footwear. I know I covered this subject several years ago, however, many of those Links are now dead, and there are new ones to see. My only wish is that someone would do an article on Medieval orthopedic shoes...some of us (naming no names, but her name starts with A) are a mite too old and defiantely too fall-prone to be hot-footing it around in thin-soled slippery footwear! Please enjoy these Links and forward them where they may find an interested audience. I enjoy hearing where these lists travel, so don't hesitate to let me know where you are sending it to! Cheers Aoife Dame Aoife Finn of Ynos Mon, a/k/a Lisbeth Herr-Gelatt Canton of Riverouge Barony of the Endless Hills Kingdom of Aethelmearc Footwear of the Middle Ages by I Marc Carlsson http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/SHOEHOME.HTM (Site Excerpt) The purpose of this web site is to provide a general guide to footwear in the European Middle Ages, with some examinations of footwear before that period, as well as some that came after. Hopefully this will be an overview of footwear technology up to 1600. Since we don't have the materials or knowledge to make this an exhaustive view of all footwear up to 1600, because much of the knowledge has been long lost, not yet published, or simply not available to me at this time, this site should always be considered a work in process. Medieval Shoes from the Bata Museum Collection, Toronto, Ontario http://www.medievallife.com/Pages/Bata_Shoe_Museum1.htm A Series of photos in their colelctionof extant shoes. Clains to be page one of 3, but no button to navigate. It is possible to find the other pages by replacing the numer 1 at the end of the URL with numbers 2 or 3. Making Medieval Arrowheads (a type of shoe) http://www.the-exiles.org/essay/makingmedishoes.htm (Site Excerpt) There are many different methods used to create the pattern, authentically a last should be used. What follows though is an easy method of creating a mediaeval looking shoe. Firstly draw around your foot on a piece of paper and extend the big toe into a point (it's also worth narrowing the middle slightly) to give your shoe that mediaeval look. See fig 1. Northampton University Medieval Shoes http://www.northampton.gov.uk/Museums/Collections/Boot_and_Shoe/History_of_Shoes/Medieval_shoes.htm (Site Excerpt) Footwear styles continued to change during the Medieval age. The sole and upper were no longer thonged but stitched together with thread and the toe became a sharp point, known as scorpion tails, they began to get longer in the 1320's and became known as pikes, crackowes or poulaines. The length of ones toe was an indication of status. The King and his court had shoes with the largest toes. This style wasn't worn by women. The ankle shoe remained popular, it was usually side laced with three pairs of holes. Shoes from the Mary Rose http://www.maryrose.org/life/cloth1.htm (Site Excerpt) The mid-sixteenth century marked a turning point in shoe construction, with the traditional 'turnshoe' giving way to the 'welted' method still used today. Square, round or ear-toe shoes demonstrate the variety of styles worn, with some slashed in a decorative manner similar to that used on the jerkins. Pattens, Clogs and Wooden Soled shoes http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/APP4.HTM (Site Excerpt) When dealing with this whole category of footwear, there are some problems with the terminology that need to be dealt with right away. The term "clog" has at one time or another meant any and all of the above mentioned items, and "patten" has meant at least as many things. So for the purposes of this document, the following things will be referred to as: Pattens, Chopines, wooden soled clogs... Wooden Pattens by Mistress Fuiltigherne http://www.meridies.org/as/dmir/Costume&Fashion/0928.html (Site Excerpt) Soled hose and cloth shoes of the Middle Ages were fine -- as long as you were staying indoors. In order to protect them from the mud and mire, a type of overshoe was developed. The terms "cog", "patton", "galochs" and "pulaine" seem to be for the most part, interchangeable, although the "poulaine" seems to apply mostly to those overshoes with leather soles. The basic patten had a wooden sole with a covering of leather over the top and a leather strap to hold the shoe in place. Pattens wore worn out of doors and removed while inside. Footwear for Scottish and Irish re-enactors http://www.historicgames.com/Scottishstuff/ghillies.html (Site Excerpt) Shoes are often one of the more difficult items of apparel for the re-enactor to obtain. Handmade footwear in a period style is expensive. Even simple shoes can cost over $100, and the price often goes up from there. As a result, a common problem among re-enactors is an otherwise good portrait of a historical character, marred by modern-styled moccasins, or shoes. Costume: Accessories - 13th Century Footwear by Jurgen von Baden http://www.havenonline.com/moas/a_s_2000/shoes.htm (Site Excerpt) These two pairs of shoes are based on styles of footwear common during the 13th century. They are both based on patterns taken from shoes that were excavated from along the Themes River in London. These shoes have been detailed in Shoes and Pattens: Medieval Finds from Excavations in London. Nearly 1500 shoes were excavated, covering the time period 1150 to 1450. This provides a large sample of shoes, many of similar style, from which a number of conclusions can be drawn. First, shoes of this time period were of turnshoe construction. The shoes were sewn together inside out, and then turned right side out once they were completed. This type of construction protects the seams of the shoe from wear. Lasts, History and use in Medieval Shoes http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/shoe/APP2.HTM (Site Excerpt) The origins of shoes are obscured by the distance of history, and like them, the origin of the last is equally hidden in that same distance. Tradition among shoemakers would imply that lasts have always been used, alongside other ancient tools like the boar's bristle, flax thread and the curved awl, if not since Adam was handed his first lasts after being tossed from the Garden, at least since the day that some nameless caveman got tired of wearing leather bags on his feet and so invented shoemaking. However, while tradition can tell us a great deal about the people who maintain those traditions, tradition is not history. Ideally, history is determined by facts that can be documented and studied objectively (I should note that this view of history is at variance with some of the schools of thought in historicial studies in the past decades. While I accept the reality of relativism in history, I'm not sure that we should use that as an excuse to stop searching for an objective truth). Stefan's Florilegium: Shoemaking www.florilegium.org To see these files and messages, click on "clothing" on the lefthand menu, then "shoemaking" or "shoes" on the right. Tournaments Illuminated index: Footwear http://www.sca.org/ti/topic.html#garbfoot Presently the index has several article slisted by tonly one linked: On Constructing Boots and Shoes by Caitlin Stuart. SHOE FROM PARLIAMENT ST. YORK CONSTRUCTION NOTES http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shoe/construction.html (Site Excerpt) This pattern is for a type of early medieval (l0th to 13th cent.) shoe that is distributed widely in North Western Europe, examples are known from York, England as well as Hedeby/Haithabu in Germany and Svendborg in Sweden. The shoe (Find no.756), sole (757), and upper (819) are described in reference [1]. Poor People's Poulaines --Pointy Shoes for Everyone! (copyright Cynthia Virtue) Easy pointy shoes out of modern leather, which will look accurate at normal distances. http://www.virtue.to/articles/poulaines.html (Site Excerpt) * So how long were these points, anyway? One fairly un-reliable source I have says that anyone who was lower than a prince could not wear points on their shoes that measured over six inches in length. If you look at the pictures in this handout you can see that the points during the 15th century seem to be between `half the foot long' and `as long as the foot' in most cases. You can do your own figuring for your own foot how long this really would be for you Shire of Hartstone: Medieval Hats, Belts and Shoes http://www.shireofhartstone.org/hatsplus.html This site includes: To Shod a Shire by Lady Eowyn Swiftlere at http://www.shireofhartstone.org/documents/stonies/articles/shodashire.html, as well as several links from the last time I chose Shoes as a topic (thanks, guys, for saving them!). Barony of Carillion: Medieval Bag Shoes http://www.carillion.eastkingdom.org/CUARAN_convt.pdf Note: This is an Adobe Acrobat file, and a good one. It take s quite a while to load, however, so please be patient. Markland: Shoes http://www.markland.org/shoes.php (Site Excerpt) Most medieval shoes were "turn shoes", sewn together inside out and then turned rightside out, to keep the stitching protected from wear. The sole is sewn to the upper with an edge/flesh seam: the stitch passes straight through the upper, then into the edge of the sole and out through the flesh (rough) side (fig 1.). The edges of the uppers can be butted together and sewn with an edge/flesh seam, or simple overlapped and stitched straight through. Late 14th Century Shoe with Poulaine (a photo series) http://www.medievallife.com/Pages/14thCenturyShoePoulaine01.htm Medieval and Postmedieval Turnshoes from Kempten (Allgäu), Germany http://www.uni-bamberg.de/~ba5am1/info/shoes.htm (Site Excerpt) The oldest complex is of special interest for archaeological and historical research. It contains charters, writing exercises, a love letter, playing-cards, wooden waste from a turnery and also about 600 leather and fur objects, which are the topic of the author's doctoral thesis(3). The biggest part of the leather finds are shoes - which is common on conventional excavations. The earliest types beyond these were one well preserved fragment of a poulaine (a.k.a. crackowe) (top is cut off, fig. 5) and a nearly complete patten. Fragment of Medieval Shoe from Newcastle upon Tyne http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/old_fotm/old_fotmmr98/ (Site Excerpt) The fragment shown is the back piece of upper from a turnshoe boot, extending to the quarter butted seam on one side. The other edge is torn. On either side the butted seams slope down from the top edge where where a triangular piece would have been inserted to complete the shape. The back top edge has a whipped seam where a top band would have attached. On the flesh side at the back, heel stitch marks show where a heel stiffener was attached. A lasting margin with stitch holes at 5-6 mm intervals is present except at the heel base where it is worn away. All butted seams have stitch holes at 4 mm intervals. Threaded through the leather are two parallel rows of thonging 3 mm wide. One set of double slit holes above the rows suggests that there were originally three rows of thonging. Thickness 3mm NorthShield: 7th Century Anglo-Saxon Shoes by Tarrach Alfson http://www.havenonline.com/moas/a_s_2000/shoes2.htm (Site Excerpt) These are two pair of 7th century Anglo-Saxon shoes. Drawings of probable designs of 7th century shoes are shown in Figure 1. The lighter pair was made using fairly lightweight leather for both the upper and sole as was described for the shoes found in the 7th century grave at Sutton Hoo. They are experimental in that I wish to see some of the advantages and disadvantages of thin-soled shoes. The second pair is done with heavier sole leather and is more complex in construction techniques (including a rand and an appliqued decoration with inner sole covering arch support). This pair includes a number of techniques described for shoes found at Sutton Hoo. Costumer's Manifesto: 17th Century Shoes and Boots http://www.costumes.org/HISTORY/100pages/17THSHOE.HTM It's the Shoes, Baby! Shoes through the Generations http://www.lausd.k12.ca.us/NH_Zoo_Magnet/shoes/ (Site Excerpt) Footwear styles continued to change during the Medieval age. The sole and upper were no longer thonged but stitched together with thread and the toe became a sharp point, known as scorpion tails, they began to get longer in the 1320's and became known as pikes, crackowes or poulaines. The length of ones toe was an indication of status. The King and his court had shoes with the largest toes. This style was not worn by women. The ankle shoe remained popular, it was usually side laced with three pairs of holes. "Romance is everything." Gertrude Stein "I have learnt to love you late, Beauty at once so ancient and so new!" (Bishop) Saint Augustine (354-430) - To change your list status, send a single line message from the account you wish to modify to sca-aethelmearc-request@andrew.cmu.edu Example: UNSUBSCRIBE sca-aethelmearc or SUBSCRIBE sca-aethelmearc _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 18:22:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i67MMYRM017408 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:22:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67MKCd5005835 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:20:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67MKA4g044683; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:20:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i67MK74g044640 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:20:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BiKlp-0007kp-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 15:20:05 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:20:04 -0700 Message-ID: <002201c46470$8e5275a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <002401c46381$5a0933a0$0201a8c0@domain> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Attention Bob Dorr-Accordion stitch? Bodice/waistband to skirt X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >I have a suspicion that this might be something like herringbone stitch, but >without the backstitching. >Bob Dorr-Robert of Stonemarche [Sg] Can you explain what you mean by without the back stitch...I think I understand a basic herringbone stitch. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 21:59:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i681xqRM017995 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:59:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i681vkd5023769 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:57:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i681vc4g081682; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:57:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i681vZ4g081645 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:57:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-206-244.cvip.net [129.8.206.244]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5AA2E05 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040707185703.02032a88@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:57:34 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040703134216.00ba91e8@mail.katiesorchids.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20040706221114.01fbd648@64.87.54.245> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 05:21 PM 7/7/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > try Lynn McMaster's Italian Bonnet > >Where did her webpage go?? I can't find it! Help! http://www.lynnmcmasters.com hth, Kimiko Kimiko Small Owner ~ DreamTime Studios http://www.dreamtime-studios.com Fresno, CA, USA "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 22:00:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6820kRM018003 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:00:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6820Gd5024043 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 20:00:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6820G4g083401; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 20:00:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i681xB4g082647 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:59:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-206-244.cvip.net [129.8.206.244]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679A843CE1 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040707185801.02032a88@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 18:59:13 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: RE: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040706221114.01fbd648@64.87.54.245> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 02:21 AM 7/7/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Are you sure it was the pattern, it sounds more like you have an impressive >husband. :)lol > >De >Sorry couldn't pass it up. Going back to the alcove now. Thanks De for the thought. I enjoyed it, and I need good laughs. And sadly, while I think my husband is impressive, it was the pattern instead. ;-) Kimiko _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 7 23:09:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6839wRM018183 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:09:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6834Pd5029202 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:04:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6834K4g016991; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:04:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6834I4g016906 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:04:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sewinggoddess@att.net) Received: from 204.127.135.40 ([204.127.135.40]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc11) with SMTP id <200407080304121110044cgje>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 03:04:12 +0000 Received: from [24.26.111.46] by 204.127.135.40; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:04:12 +0000 From: sewinggoddess@att.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:04:12 +0000 Message-Id: <070820040304.10716.40ECB9AC00063BA7000029DC21602807489C9C0A0B0B0109090207990A9C@att.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (May 27 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: c2V3aW5nZ29kZGVzc0BhdHQubmV0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ohh ohh I'll answer this one! In Orlando: go to The Sewing Studio. I'ts actually in Maitland but well worth it. It's not my fault if you blow your costuming budget in a few minutes. If you're looking for hard to find stuff, they have it. They also have an "annex' next door of their discount stuff. OH MY GOD! Web address: http://www.sewing.net/ In Key West: Must see--- Mel Fischer Maritime Museum. They have on display artifacts from the wreck of the Atocha , a spanish treasure ship that sunk off of Key west in the early 17th century IIRC. Handy, because they are always changing the items on display. When we went there last, a friend had wanted to see a "pan lamp" that was on display on a previous trip. It was off of the display floor, but the girl there called the curator in the back room and he remembered what exactly had been on display, went in the storehouse and brought it out for her, and let her examineit to her heart's content, and gave her all the info they had on it and discussed it with her at length and also other types of illuminations that was availabale shipboard at the time, which is what she was researching! Very friendly folks, interesting items on display, a good slice of shipboard life. There is also a costume shop in Key west. As you look north on US 1, from Mallory square, go right. Towards the Maritime museum. I'ts just around the turn of the corner a little ways down the road, probably less than a half mile from Mallory Square. We passed it on the trolley on the way back to the cruise ship, and saw all kinds of "interesting" pirate-y costumes on display in the windows. Fun to look at if nothing else. ;-) There are also exactly *two * fabric stores in Key west. One deals in 1950's kitchy prints along eith their line of "beach wear", and the other one has been closed every time I've tried to go there. (twice now) I've given up on trying to get in there. Looks like a quilting shop from the outside of the store. and that's the local news report on neat-o shoppes! Crissy > I'm making a trip to Orlando and Key West, Florida in late November/December > and I was wondering if there are any suggestions of things/places worth > seeing while there outside of the regular touristy things. > > I'm thinking a day or two not in the sun would probably be good on the fair > skinned redhead. > > Molly > ~There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. > I think I tripped over it a few years back > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 00:03:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6843PRM018341 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:03:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6841ed5003127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6840u4g045263; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:01:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6840f4g045038 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:00:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20040708040026015003mshte>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 04:00:26 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:59:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Special Ribbon source? From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000601c46435$721cc970$6a01a8c0@SG01> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Um, not to belabor the obvious, but whyn't you contact one of the retailers with web presence and ask them if they'll get it for you? It's true there are only three of them listed, and one of the three is a dead link, but the other two seem to work...? Good luck, Lauren > From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" > > Hi all. I am looking for this type of ribbon: > > > > > &type=KEYWORD&category=&ref=&keyword=&search_color=&price_range=&search_ref= > 41823&search_type=&display=6&id=1088709332-24.221.40.235-7144&lg=&ps=> > http://www.renaissanceribbons.com/cgi-bin/ribbons.cgi?status=search&subcat=& > type=KEYWORD&category=&ref=&keyword=&search_color=&price_range=&search_ref=4 > 1823&search_type=&display=6&id=1088709332-24.221.40.235-7144&lg=&ps= > > > > It is by a company called Renaissance Ribbon. (It may be imported from > France) I am having a hard time finding a retailer (they have very few > listed on the wholesale site) I am looking for it in white with the white > rolled edge or white with the gold rolled edge. > > > > Have any of you run across it in your wanderings? > > > > Thanks, Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 00:14:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i684EcRM018384 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:14:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684Bbd5003876 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:11:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684BZ4g050937; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:11:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmlapp16.siteprotect.com (cmlapp16.siteprotect.com [64.41.126.229]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684BX4g050928 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:11:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cschmitt@genteelarts.com) Received: from genteelarts (oh-65-40-67-64.dyn.sprint-hsd.net [65.40.67.64]) by cmlapp16.siteprotect.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF4A31DB3 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:11:32 -0500 (CDT) From: "Carolann Schmitt" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:11:16 -0400 Organization: Genteel Arts Message-ID: <002b01c464a1$a2800e30$0300a8c0@genteelarts> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <070820040304.10716.40ECB9AC00063BA7000029DC21602807489C9C0A0B0B0109090207990A9C@att.net> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That would be Key West Fabrics - the original and still the manufacturer for the hand-printed fabrics for Lily Pulitzer fashions. They carry both yard goods and finished clothing. You have to like pink and lime green , but the quality of the cottons is very good. Carolann Schmitt cschmitt@genteelarts.com www.genteelarts.com Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 3-6, 2005 There are also exactly *two * fabric stores in Key west. One deals in 1950's kitchy prints along eith their line of "beach wear"... Crissy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 00:22:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i684M4RM018411 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:22:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684KJd5004281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:20:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684KH4g055269; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:20:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f18.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684KE4g055188 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:20:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:20:09 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:20:09 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:20:09 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jul 2004 04:20:09.0131 (UTC) FILETIME=[DAC91FB0:01C464A2] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://www.lynnmcmasters.com/patterns.html >From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: "Historical Costume" >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Men's Elizabethan >Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:21:05 -0400 > > > try Lynn McMaster's Italian Bonnet > >Where did her webpage go?? I can't find it! Help! >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ MSN Life Events gives you the tips and tools to handle the turning points in your life. http://lifeevents.msn.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 00:38:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i684cTRM018820 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:38:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684ahd5005252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:36:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684ae4g063407; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:36:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound1.mail.tds.net (outbound1.mail.tds.net [216.170.230.91]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684aY4g063366 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:36:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bobd2@tellink.net) Received: from host (h69-21-249-157.69-21.unk.tds.net [69.21.249.157]) by outbound1.mail.tds.net (8.12.10/8.12.2) with SMTP id i684aUig000648 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:36:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <000701c464a5$1d228700$0201a8c0@domain> From: "bobd2" To: References: <200407080422.i684M84h056226@net.indra.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Attention Bob Dorr-Accordion stitch? Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:36:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Subject: [h-cost] Attention Bob Dorr-Accordion stitch? > >I have a suspicion that this might be something like herringbone stitch, > but > >without the backstitching. > > >Bob Dorr-Robert of Stonemarche > > [Sg] Can you explain what you mean by without the back stitch...I think I > understand a basic herringbone stitch. I might be using the wrong name for the stitch, I learned how to sew, and basic embroidery from my Pepere (mostly french speaking grandfather). As I understood herringbone for hems/attaching/etc is that it's worked from left to right, with the point of the needle pointing left. Like a backstitch. You'd catch the upper fabric with a little stitch, and the thread would come out and go diagonally downwards (Like an X where the top is a backstitch) and then do the same on the bottom. What I was trying to describe is more diagonally up and down Like VVVV with the point of the needle pointing right instead, so that the thread is easier to tug and tighten or loosen. I'm hoping that makes sense. If not, I can try to take a picture of large stitches worked in yarn and send them via e-mail. Bob Dorr-Robert of Stonemarche _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 00:46:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i684kLRM019292 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:46:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684iZd5006034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:44:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684iX4g067372; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:44:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684iV4g067351 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:44:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20j0.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.96] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BiQlq-0001C9-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 07 Jul 2004 21:44:30 -0700 Message-Id: <6.0.1.1.2.20040707230435.0233f508@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.1.1 Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:08:47 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200407071802.i67I1w4h032426@net.indra.com> References: <200407071802.i67I1w4h032426@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Medieval Times, etc. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO About 1992 or so, we went with a bunch of costuming friends to Arabian Nights (in Orlando) in 'fantasy' Arabian costume. The staff got a kick out of it, and a couple of the ladies got to flirt with some of the players - yes, they were -very- easy on the eyes. Loads of fun!! Sandy >From: Janet Renzetti >Subject: Re: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida > >Molly > >I know this may fall under typical touristy thing, but I am a Medieval >Times addict and I find it worth paying the extra for the royalty seats >(front 2 rows). Tournament on horseback while eating dinner by hands and >being served by wenches and serfs. The knights are very easy on the eyes >and sparks ctually fly off the weapons they use. It is expensive, but it >is a one night thing. Also there are frequetly online coupons you can >print, you ned to look under locations and choose the closest place to >wear you will be and then the menu shows the specials and coupons. >http://www.medievaltimes.com/ THe site itself is a little fun too with >actua pictures. IF you pay more when you get there you can get knighted >by the King. The guests don't wear costume, but I hear that some SCA >people have come they dresses in appropriate atire for the century. > >Janet "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 00:54:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i684sqRM019326 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:54:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684rpd5006732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:53:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684rn4g071995; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:53:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f5.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684rm4g071938 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:53:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:53:42 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:53:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] FWD: Empire Line Dress Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 04:53:42 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jul 2004 04:53:42.0777 (UTC) FILETIME=[8B031E90:01C464A7] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here is my recommendation http://www.sensibility.com/pattern/ What the great pattern review said it .. http://gbacg.org/Patterns/SS.htm The pattern everybody mentioned.. http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/timelinepages/1800to1825a.htm and the cheapest pattern that I know of that is close to it is New Look 6045... http://www.simplicity.com/index.cfm?cat=6&type=31&sec=0&id=110 and ever thing else you can find on the internet http://www.songsmyth.com/patternsgowns.html Wilhelmina >From: Dawn >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: Historical Costume >Subject: [h-cost] FWD: Empire Line Dress >Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:44:50 -0500 > >All, > >I've had a request that is outside my area of knowledge , so I thought I >would pass it along to the folks here. Anyone who feels they can fulfill >her request is welcome to respond to her. > >Dawn > >----- > > > >Subj: Empire Line Dress >Date: 04-07-05 22:29:59 EDT >From: WhitbywitchUK@aol.com > > >hello there :) > >I have to complement you on your lovely work. > >I am looking for an authentic English/Napoleonic dress. It has to be in a >fabric which could be aquired at that time. I am a large size. (English >22). > >Do you make such things? And if so, approximately how much would it cost >me? > >I unfortunately am with a group who insist EVERYTHING is authentic. And it >is also unfortunate that my sewing sucks. Everyone else looks so much >better than me :(. Oh by the way I am in the UK. > >Hope you are well > >kindest regards >Dawn > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 00:59:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i684x1RM019351 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 00:59:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684vBd5006886 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:57:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i684vB4g073790; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:57:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i684v74g073767 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:57:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 354 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2004 04:57:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2004 04:57:37 -0000 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com); by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1089.24.4.69.40.1089262626.squirrel@24.4.69.40> In-Reply-To: <000601c46435$721cc970$6a01a8c0@SG01> References: <000601c46435$721cc970$6a01a8c0@SG01> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Special Ribbon source? From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Hi all. I am looking for this type of ribbon: > > > > > > http://www.renaissanceribbons.com/cgi-bin/ribbons.cgi?status=search&subcat=& > type=KEYWORD&category=&ref=&keyword=&search_color=&price_range=&search_ref=4 > 1823&search_type=&display=6&id=1088709332-24.221.40.235-7144&lg=&ps > > > It is by a company called Renaissance Ribbon. (It may be imported from > France) I am having a hard time finding a retailer (they have very few > listed on the wholesale site) I am looking for it in white with the white > rolled edge or white with the gold rolled edge. > > > > Have any of you run across it in your wanderings? > > > > Thanks, Sg Saragrace, I carry Renaissance Ribbons items on my website. From the description, I don't think that it is one that I already have but I would be happy to order it for you. A whole roll is typically 25 meters. Let me know how much you would like and the product number and I will order it. By the way, their ribbon quality is fabulous! Some of their items are made on looms that are several hundred years old. You will not be disappointed. Diana > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Diana Habra www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 01:19:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i685J8RM019628 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:19:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i685HId5007714 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:17:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i685HA4g083904; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:17:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i685H64g083830 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 2004 23:17:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from M311@aol.com) Received: from M311@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.155.3913f62a (4254) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:16:55 -0400 (EDT) From: M311@aol.com Message-ID: <155.3913f62a.2e1e32c6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 01:16:54 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I ran across this dress last night on the web. I know we have had dresses made with some funny and odd things discussed on here before but I this is a first for me. The dress has lots of condoms hanging all over it. It can be seen at: http://www.bizarrenews.com/condom/dress.asp Kelly _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 08:24:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68COGRM015904 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:24:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68CNZd5027537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:23:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68CNS4g093358; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:23:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68CNP4g093324 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:23:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BiXvs-0005zP-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:23:20 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Attention Bob Dorr-Accordion stitch? Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 05:23:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c464e6$5c7f2a70$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <000701c464a5$1d228700$0201a8c0@domain> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i68CNP4g093324 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think I get it now Bob, thank you. I will give it a stab (tee hee) and then ask more questions.. Sg >> >What I was trying to describe is more diagonally up and down Like VVVV with >the point of the needle pointing right instead, so that the thread is easier >to tug and tighten or loosen. > >I'm hoping that makes sense. If not, I can try to take a picture of large >stitches worked in yarn and send them via e-mail. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 08:29:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68CTGRM015923 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:29:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68CQEd5027691 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:26:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68CQE4g094851; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:26:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68COf4g094076 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:24:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BiXxA-0006C9-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:24:40 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Special Ribbon source? Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 05:24:42 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c464e6$8bf03f10$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i68COf4g094076 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks, I had already done that. But no one has the exact ribbon color I am looking for (which happens to be white on white) Sg > >Um, not to belabor the obvious, but whyn't you contact one of the retailers >with web presence and ask them if they'll get it for you? It's true there >are only three of them listed, and one of the three is a dead link, but the >other two seem to work...? >Good luck, >Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 09:06:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68D6XRM016045 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:06:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68D4gd5029786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:04:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68D4d4g015734; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:04:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68D4a4g015687 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:04:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.122] (pm7-122.eos.net [205.133.149.122]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68D4Lq6011546 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:04:21 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:02:18 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407080422.i684M84h056226@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Key West Fabrics, etc. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And Key West Fabrics, at least when I went there long ago, offers a factory tour. It is (or was) produced the old-fashioned way -- screenprinted by hand. It was interesting to watch. At the time I saw it, I didn't know who Lily Pulitzer was, and I thought the fabric was ugly. I still think it's ugly (ha ha) but now that I know what it is, I like the ugliness. Back then, at least 20 years ago, they also sold little squares of assorted patterns for quilting. If you're looking for medieval/renaissance/iron age stuff, don't bother. But if you just like fabric and clothing, it's worth a visit. On a related note -- we went to Sarasota in June, and visited the Ringling Museum of Art. Nobody told me it was good! We went with the kids (10 and 7) who loved the Ringling mansion and grounds, but were too tired out for the circus museum and art museum. Yes, they're all in one place. Anyway, I didn't allow time for the art museum, because I thought it was small and would have only a few things. Ha! It has ROOMS of medieval stuff, renaissance, stuff, 18th century stuff, etc. Very nice indeed. All I got to was run through it and buy the catalog. At least I'm going back next year! The museums are free on Mondays, BTW. Sarasota is about 4 hours west of Ft. Lauderdale, so not good for a quick trip from Disney. One more note about it -- the museum has the largest private collection of Rubens in the world, and they were AMAZING. They are part of a series of cartoons commissioned by a princess for a convent of Poor Clares. Normally the cartoons would be thrown away, but the princess liked them so much that she kept them. They are huge and absolutely gorgeous, not sketchy at all but real paitings. The museum has one of the tapestries, and in comparison it's pretty ugly. The catalog description of them is funny. The series is called "The Triumph of the Eucharist," and it's pretty heavy with Catholic doctrine. The writer seems to find this rather sinister, and waxes about its propaganda purposes. But considering that it was painted for a convent of cloistered nuns who didn't need need any propaganda to convert them, I think the description says more about the writer than the painter! Oh well, it's a good reminder that everything you read has a bias, conscious or unconscious, and when you're doing research of any kind you have to look for it. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 09:21:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68DLGRM016091 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:21:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68DHhd5000619 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:17:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68DHf4g022890; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:17:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68DHd4g022838 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:17:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004070813173301400jhsq0e>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:17:33 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:16:34 -0400 From: Lauren Walker To: h-costume Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I've had the privilege of seeing Robin Netherton's lecture on the mistakes of Victorian costume "historians", so when I saw that all the faces in the illustrations of Herbert Norris' _Medieval Costume and Fashion_ (first published in 1927) somehow resembled Charles Dana Gibson illustrations, I knew I could not take this Dover reprint at its word. So my question for today is: what, if anything, might have possessed Norris to write that women were wearing corsets during the reign of Henry I, 1100 - 1135? All conjectures entertained... Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 09:36:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68DaURM016182 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:36:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68DXQd5001577 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:33:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68DXN4g032511; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:33:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68DXK4g032431 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:33:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f46.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.70]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 31C0C5EE03E for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:33:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004a01c464f0$2076ed10$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:33:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello all. Today i thoaght about an old novel wich once was filmed by the danish television. It was my favourite novel, and especially the heroin in the story, inspired me many times to draw costumes i imagined i would make for her. Have you ever thoaght the same, dressing up your hero / heroin from a novel? My heroin was based from a true story, nobility girl who married the kings bastard, and later got divorsed from him so that she could get married to the man she loved, a stable keeper. Many famous writers has ben inspired of her story and made their own versions. She lived in Denmark in end of 17th century, her name was Marie Grubbe. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 09:49:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68Dn6RM016241 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:49:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Djvd5002252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:45:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Djt4g039721; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:45:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com ([212.17.54.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Djn4g039595 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:45:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lstrid@mglarc.com) Received: by oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:43:31 +0100 Message-ID: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A647F@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> From: Lena Strid To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:43:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's something similar in Cunningtons' "History of underclothes", where they interpret the side lacing of a bliaut (?) on a female demon in the 12th century Winchester bible as a corset. Then again, women at Norris' time wore corsets, and women had done so for centuries, so assumably the absence of corsets never entered his mind? /Lena -----Original Message----- From: Lauren Walker [mailto:lauren.walker@comcast.net] Sent: 08 July 2004 14:17 To: h-costume Subject: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? Hi, I've had the privilege of seeing Robin Netherton's lecture on the mistakes of Victorian costume "historians", so when I saw that all the faces in the illustrations of Herbert Norris' _Medieval Costume and Fashion_ (first published in 1927) somehow resembled Charles Dana Gibson illustrations, I knew I could not take this Dover reprint at its word. So my question for today is: what, if anything, might have possessed Norris to write that women were wearing corsets during the reign of Henry I, 1100 - 1135? All conjectures entertained... Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ================================================= Margaret Gowen & Co. Ltd. Archaeological Consultants & Project Managers 2 Killiney View Tel: 01-2300433 Albert Road Lower Fax: 01-2300865 Glenageary e-mail: archaeology@mglarc.com Co. Dublin website: http://www.mglarc.com ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is private and confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you are not named above as an addressee it may be unlawful for you to read, copy, distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this email. If you are not the intended recipient of this email please contact our systems administrator. Thank you. NOTE Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its associated companies unless otherwise specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 09:50:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68DogRM016246 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:50:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Do2d5002568 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:50:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Do04g042179; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:50:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dnh4g041658 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:49:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i68DnUC11283.; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:49:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:49:06 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:48:46 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> drewscph@post12.tele.dk 08/07/2004 14:33:17 >>> wrote [snip] >Have you ever thoaght the same, dressing up your hero / heroin from a >novel? No, but I've tried to redraw some of Thackeray's own illustrations for his "Vanity Fair". For some reason he drew the men in the styles of the Napoleonic era, the period in which much of the book is set, but the women in crinolines (it was published in 1848). I wanted to see how they would look with Becky and Amelia in Empire line dresses. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 09:55:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68DtPRM016260 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:55:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68DsSd5002826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:54:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68DsP4g044766; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:54:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68DsM4g044712 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:54:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:53:27 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF1A@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Another painting to find... Thread-Index: AcRkTPU/ULoH7AuJQVeIeFAwhKCeXAApdm7A content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > Robin, would you happen to have dates for these images? > > > > All are from the Bibliotheque Nationale de France site. > > Ribuin, you are an absolute treasure! And I very obviously can neither type nor proof-read! Sorry Robin. Teddy (all thumbs!) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 09:55:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68DtTRM016263 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:55:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dlud5002428 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:47:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dlt4g040938; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:47:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dk74g039860 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:46:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BiZDx-0007LX-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:46:05 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:46:08 -0700 Message-ID: <001601c464f1$ec0da670$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <004a01c464f0$2076ed10$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sure! I love the Dorothy Dunnett trilogy: The Lymond Chronicles and the prequel Niccoli series. The first takes place around ~1550 or so, and the second about 100 years earlier. See http://www.dorothydunnett.co.uk/ for more information. The male protagonists are really fun and there is much in the way of costuming already in the books. My biggest problem is figuring out how I would dress Lymond because I just can't see him in the appropriate Elizabethan attire. I think he would be great in later fashions (like the era you do Bjarne), but that would definitely not fit with the story line. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 09:57:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68DvARM016277 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:57:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dubd5002966 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:56:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dua4g046136; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:56:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dtn4g045664 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:55:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i68DtlOu024715 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040708094407.01c49e98@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:55:50 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey There... I've just been reading up on this debate myself. So here's what I've learned so far. In some of the exchequer records for both England and France (talking 1340s here) there are references to coursette or (corsettum and various spellings). Now it is possible that a Victorian antiquarian took this word at face value, maybe... or perhaps he reuses the word and we mistake his meaning - also possible. In actuallity, there is a great deal of ambiguity about just what the flip these items of clothing were. They appear in accounts for both males and females, and for ages ranging from 5 to mid-adulthood. Some are mentioned with buttons, others are described as "ronde". I'm intrigued as to just what these Items -might- be interpreted as. Some in the inventories are made of spectacular cloth, some are mi-partied (parti-coloured) and most IIRC lined in silk, cendal. Don't recall any lined in fur. So what is it that a child to an adult - of either sex - would wear? It is an outergarment - or at least one that is meant to be seen - because of the choice for expensive luxe fabrics. Robin... any input? Many thanks, Mari / Bridgette >Hi, >I've had the privilege of seeing Robin Netherton's lecture on the mistakes >of Victorian costume "historians", so when I saw that all the faces in the >illustrations of Herbert Norris' _Medieval Costume and Fashion_ (first >published in 1927) somehow resembled Charles Dana Gibson illustrations, I >knew I could not take this Dover reprint at its word. So my question for >today is: what, if anything, might have possessed Norris to write that women >were wearing corsets during the reign of Henry I, 1100 - 1135? >All conjectures entertained... >Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 10:00:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68E0PRM016304 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:00:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dxsd5003225 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:59:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dxr4g048290; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:59:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dwn4g047615 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:58:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BiZQE-0001Ir-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:58:46 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 06:58:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c464f3$b1888040$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A647F@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Norris:was Early Medieval Corsets???? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am not sure why one has to discredit everything he did. I have not heard Robin's lecture, but is it commonly accepted that everything researched in this time period was just completely made up? Is his work any more influenced by the period in which he lived than research we do now? The illustrations are clearly 'copies' of portraits and while not particularly nicely or accurately done doesn't seem reason enough to discredit his observations about the originals. There are not many of us that have access to primary sources, so I would look at anything else with a wary eye. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 10:02:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68E23RM016324 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:02:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dxld5003205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:59:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dxk4g048232; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:59:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Dwm4g047605 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:58:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:57:07 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF1B@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? Thread-Index: AcRkTPU/ULoH7AuJQVeIeFAwhKCeXAApleOw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > *snort* > Do you still have that rainbow cat waistcoat? Yep, though the extra poundage will probably make it a tad too tight to wear these days. > --sue, who just finished an orange-and-green boot sock on Monday! Yaaay! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 10:16:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68EGMRM016351 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:16:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68EE0d5004205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:14:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68EDx4g057842; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:13:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68EDu4g057763 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:13:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Widowweeds@cs.com) Received: from Widowweeds@cs.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.50.2e43478f (16109) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tlininn (mattdrury.net [68.142.30.226]) by air-id12.mx.aol.com (v100.23) with ESMTP id MAILINID121-3eed40ed5698158; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:13:45 -0400 Message-ID: <002e01c464f5$c6744410$6401a8c0@tlininn> From: "Widow Weeds" To: "Historical Costume" References: <070820040304.10716.40ECB9AC00063BA7000029DC21602807489C9C0A0B0B0109090207990A9C@att.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:13:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-AOL-IP: 68.142.30.226 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > In Orlando: go to The Sewing Studio. I'ts I second that. A bit pricey, but an incredible selection of history-friendly fabrics. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 10:44:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68EiZRM016461 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:44:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Eehd5006164 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:40:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Eec4g076516; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:40:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm43.prodigy.net (ylpvm43-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Eea4g076477 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:40:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-83-96.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.83.96]) by ylpvm43.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i68EeSu5019966 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:40:36 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040708072022.02c26f00@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 07:25:42 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress In-Reply-To: <004a01c464f0$2076ed10$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Have you ever thoaght the same, dressing up your hero / heroin from a novel? Whenever I read anything historical, I always picture the characters in costumes. These include the hero/heroine, the bad guys, or even the people I only read about for a paragraph or two. If I really care about the characters I may invent more than one outfit for them, as the novel progresses. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:01:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68F1GRM016519 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:01:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Euqd5007478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:56:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Eun4g088267; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:56:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Eul4g088160 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:56:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20040708145641015003ngdoe>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:56:41 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:55:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris:was Early Medieval Corsets???? From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001c464f3$b1888040$6a01a8c0@SG01> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, golly, I don't mean to "discredit" "everything" he did -- and I CERTAINLY don't want to lay such a charge at Robin's door, as her work is very careful and nuanced. But like any secondary resource, Norris' work is full of conclusions and conjectures, and, yes, actually, not only is the research we do today more in keeping with my OWN prejudices , but also much more of it is based on fun science stuff. For instance, I am most grateful for the analysis of textile finds for chemical evidence of specific dyestuffs and the further testing of what colors those dyestuffs produced, for a more complete picture of the color palette available in the 13th century. There was an era when costume historians assumed everybody in the middle ages wore brown all the time, since anything dug up was brown by the time it got dug up. (Okay that's an over-simplified example but I am supposed to be on my way to work! and not poring over costume pictures!) And any time a picture is re-drawn, detail is lost or adapted to what the re-drawer thinks should be there -- we can't help it. Just last week on this list there was an awful long discussion about whether a sliver of pattern visible in a painting was a sleeve or a lining or a bodice -- imagine if, in re-drawing the picture, the artist helpfully decided to make it "clearer" but chose to see as a sleeve what was originally a bodice. So my point was only that once things have been re-drawn, they can't be taken at face value. My question remains, however: corset???? Even the illustrations in Norris for 1100-1135 don't show dresses fitted enough to require the kind of corset he's shown. Off to work now! Lauren > From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" > > I am not sure why one has to discredit everything he did. I have not heard > Robin's lecture, but is it commonly accepted that everything researched in > this time period was just completely made up? Is his work any more > influenced by the period in which he lived than research we do now? The > illustrations are clearly 'copies' of portraits and while not particularly > nicely or accurately done doesn't seem reason enough to discredit his > observations about the originals. > > There are not many of us that have access to primary sources, so I would > look at anything else with a wary eye. > > Sg > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:05:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68F57RM016531 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:05:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68F0nd5007879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:00:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68F0n4g091236; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:00:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68F0k4g091148 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:00:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004070815004001400jc82le>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:00:40 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:59:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A647F@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you VERY much for the idea that it's the side-lacing of a bliaut or gown that may be what Norris is referring to when he writes: "...according to an illuminated manuscript of the period (_Nero_, C. IV, British Museum), depicting the devil tight-laced in corsets, it was stiffened with wod or metal, and laced up the front." I just can't see corsetry as we know it existing that early -- most people are still in T-tunics in 1100... Thanks again, Lauren > From: Lena Strid > > There's something similar in Cunningtons' "History of underclothes", where > they interpret the side lacing of a bliaut (?) on a female demon in the 12th > century Winchester bible as a corset. > > Then again, women at Norris' time wore corsets, and women had done so for > centuries, so assumably the absence of corsets never entered his mind? > > /Lena > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:07:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68F7hRM016543 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:07:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68F3pd5008109 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:03:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68F3o4g093481; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:03:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68F2N4g092385 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:02:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004070815021701400jcfmae>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:02:17 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:01:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4.1.20040708072022.02c26f00@mail.frys.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm worse. I'm a writer, and I'll dress up like my main character while I work! Lauren > From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows > >> Have you ever thoaght the same, dressing up your hero / heroin from a novel? > > Whenever I read anything historical, I always picture the characters in > costumes. These include the hero/heroine, the bad guys, or even the people > I only read about for a paragraph or two. If I really care about the > characters I may invent more than one outfit for them, as the novel > progresses. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:19:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FJARM016580 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:19:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FEgd5009077 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:14:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FEc4g001996; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:14:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ens9.eatel.net (ens9.eatel.net [209.124.203.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i68FEZ4g001873 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:14:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mamarose@eatel.net) Received: (qmail 19577 invoked by uid 89); 8 Jul 2004 15:14:28 -0000 Received: from ip-209-124-255-176.dynamic.eatel.net (HELO eatel.net) (209.124.255.176) by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jul 2004 15:14:28 -0000 Message-ID: <40ED806A.4000007@eatel.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:12:10 -0700 From: Margaret User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] places to visit in Florida References: <20040707122403.84652.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >IF you pay more when you get there you can get knighted by the King. The guests don't wear costume, but I hear that some SCA people have come they dresses in appropriate atire for the century. > >Janet > > I did that. Went dressed in my peasent best at the Dallas MT. They thought I was an actual "wench" and tried to put me to work! No kidding. Turned out they had just hired a whole bunch of new people, and there was much confusion that night. It was really funny. Margaret Rose -- May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, the forsite to know where your going and the insite to know when you've gone to far. -- Irish Toast _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:21:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FLcRM016592 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:21:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FJZd5009625 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:19:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FJY4g006084; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:19:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com ([212.17.54.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FIR4g005086 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:18:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lstrid@mglarc.com) Received: by oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:16:11 +0100 Message-ID: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A6483@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> From: Lena Strid To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:16:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It's (redrawn, though) in "Museum of London: Dress Accessories" (p.285). The authors' say the dress is laced in front, though. Considering how stylised the image is, I could probably argue for both :-) . /Lena -----Original Message----- From: Lauren Walker [mailto:lauren.walker@comcast.net] Sent: 08 July 2004 16:00 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? Thank you VERY much for the idea that it's the side-lacing of a bliaut or gown that may be what Norris is referring to when he writes: "...according to an illuminated manuscript of the period (_Nero_, C. IV, British Museum), depicting the devil tight-laced in corsets, it was stiffened with wod or metal, and laced up the front." I just can't see corsetry as we know it existing that early -- most people are still in T-tunics in 1100... Thanks again, Lauren > From: Lena Strid > > There's something similar in Cunningtons' "History of underclothes", where > they interpret the side lacing of a bliaut (?) on a female demon in the 12th > century Winchester bible as a corset. > > Then again, women at Norris' time wore corsets, and women had done so for > centuries, so assumably the absence of corsets never entered his mind? > > /Lena > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ================================================= Margaret Gowen & Co. Ltd. Archaeological Consultants & Project Managers 2 Killiney View Tel: 01-2300433 Albert Road Lower Fax: 01-2300865 Glenageary e-mail: archaeology@mglarc.com Co. Dublin website: http://www.mglarc.com ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is private and confidential and may contain legally privileged information. 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NOTE Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its associated companies unless otherwise specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:25:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FPaRM016648 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:25:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FNed5010120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FNY4g009398; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FL94g007328 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:21:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lizyoung@fenris.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c-24-7-132-137.client.comcast.net[24.7.132.137]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2004070815210301400jl5nme>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:21:03 +0000 Message-ID: <40ED6668.3050105@fenris.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 08:21:12 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress References: <004a01c464f0$2076ed10$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <004a01c464f0$2076ed10$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Hello all. > Today i thoaght about an old novel wich once was filmed by the danish > television. It was my favourite novel, and especially the heroin in the > story, inspired me many times to draw costumes i imagined i would make for > her. > Have you ever thoaght the same, dressing up your hero / heroin from a novel? I used to do that all the time, with science fiction novels. I entered lots of science fiction masquerade contests. It was fun. Especially since the author usually gave only a little description of the costume and I got to invent the rest! Not historical in the least. liz young _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:26:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FQWRM016851 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:26:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FNOd5010067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FNM4g009240; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:23:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from eagle.uvm.edu (eagle.uvm.edu [132.198.101.203]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FL64h007304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:21:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hope.greenberg@uvm.edu) Received: from uvm.edu ([132.198.190.61]) by eagle.uvm.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FKwXc021281 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:20:59 -0400 Message-ID: <40ED665A.3040000@uvm.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:20:58 -0400 From: Hope Greenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7a) Gecko/20040218 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lauren Walker wrote: >So my question for >today is: what, if anything, might have possessed Norris to write that women >were wearing corsets during the reign of Henry I, 1100 - 1135? > What a good question. Here's my take on it. When clothing historians look at images from the past, we have three stumbling blocks: 1) our eyes - we see with our modern eyes and all the preconceptions that entails. For us, those preconceptions probably include our knowledge of modern clothing construction/sewing techniques, and our assumptions about body shape, posture, and the importance or definition of comfort. For the Victorians, those preconceptions probably included the same general categories, though their interpretation of those categories would have been different. For example, before the 1850s, their knowledge of machine mass-produced sewing techniques would have given them a slightly different experience of construction, etc. 2) language - a difficult one. We know that words change their meaning over time but it's not so easy to figure out what, exactly, those changes are or when they occur. 3) our access to images - we have a great advantage over the Victorians and 18th century clothing historians: we generally have access to lots and lots of images. There are many beautifully produced art books, many more works of at available in museums, and with the advent of the web, access to more than ever before. I have a hard time faulting the Victorians. If you only have one or two images to work with your conclusions are bound to be different than if you have 100. And even though we have great access to images, we still come to some pretty strange conclusions! Obviously, 12th century western european high fashion was characterized by a move to make clothing more fitted through the body. In addition, the artwork of the period leading up to this, in both manuscripts and sculpture, was heavily influenced by the "linear style" or the desire, almost a compulsion it would seem, to draw many vertical lines! In that interesting transition between that style and the simpler, more naturalistic style that evolved in the 13th/14th century are those fascinating 12th century clothing mysteries that we still argue about: are those Chartres statues really showing a separate bodice and skirt or are they just trying to depict, in stone, the linear style combined with the move toward fitted clothing? Norris saw corsets, some see bodice and skirt. Who knows what the next generation will see! - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:31:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FV1RM017041 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:31:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FUKd5010841 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FUJ4g014897; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from eagle.uvm.edu (eagle.uvm.edu [132.198.101.203]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FOf4h010422 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:24:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hope.greenberg@uvm.edu) Received: from uvm.edu ([132.198.190.61]) by eagle.uvm.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FOdXc021935 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:24:39 -0400 Message-ID: <40ED6737.8010000@uvm.edu> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:24:39 -0400 From: Hope Greenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7a) Gecko/20040218 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <20040707122403.84652.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> <40ED806A.4000007@eatel.net> In-Reply-To: <40ED806A.4000007@eatel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In keeping with the "I'm going to such-and-such a place. . .any must see costume/fabric places" theme, any recommendations for the San Diego area? - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:31:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FVMRM017058 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:31:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FUjd5010891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FUj4g015235; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FRr4g012884 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:27:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from edieann@telus.net) Received: from moms ([207.6.156.139]) by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with SMTP id <20040708152747.PABG18119.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@moms> for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:27:47 -0600 Message-ID: <001501c46501$0118ed40$8b9c06cf@bc.hsia.telus.net> From: "Edith Reardon" To: References: <200407080422.i684M84h056226@net.indra.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:34:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 493 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Help I could not get this link to open tried 4 x's??? is it the right link all the rest worked?? http://www.meridies.org/as/dmir/Costume&Fashion/0928.html Wooden Pattens by Mistress Fuiltigherne http://www.meridies.org/as/dmir/Costume&Fashion/0928.html (Site Excerpt) Soled hose and cloth shoes of the Middle Ages were fine -- as long as you were staying indoors. In order to protect them from the mud and mire, a type of overshoe was developed. The terms "cog", "patton", "galochs" and "pulaine" seem to be for the most part, interchangeable, although the "poulaine" seems to apply mostly to those overshoes with leather soles. The basic patten had a wooden sole with a covering of leather over the top and a leather strap to hold the shoe in place. Pattens wore worn out of doors and removed while inside. Brin Kendall _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:32:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FWNRM017101 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:32:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FUdd5010870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FUd4g015165; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:30:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68FPS4g011017 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:25:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004070815252101400jijbie>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:25:21 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:24:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A6483@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wow! I would be hard pressed to draw any general conclusions from THAT -- probably even in the original. Since the demon seems to have two left hands, it;s hard to know if that's a side-lace or a front-lace! ;-) Thanks for the page-ref, though. Of course Dress Accessories is right here on my desk... Lauren > From: Lena Strid > It's (redrawn, though) in "Museum of London: Dress Accessories" (p.285). The > authors' say the dress is laced in front, though. Considering how stylised > the image is, I could probably argue for both :-) . > > /Lena _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:33:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FXURM017149 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:33:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68F6Zd5008356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:06:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68F6Y4g095432; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:06:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.188]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i68F684g095093 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:06:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sarah@modehistorique.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?68.122.185.234?) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@68.122.185.234 with plain) by smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2004 15:06:07 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <000001c464f3$b1888040$6a01a8c0@SG01> References: <000001c464f3$b1888040$6a01a8c0@SG01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <563E88E0-D0F0-11D8-8D5E-000D9353A386@modehistorique.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sarah lorraine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris:was Early Medieval Corsets???? Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:06:06 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I love Norris' Tudor Costume & Fashion book. No, it's not primary or even secondary source material (he's particularly bad about quoting sources) but his eye is still good and his theories on things such as French Hoods are far better than the majority of modern assumptions when put to the test. I have plenty of more recently published costume overview books that make all the same mistakes that we accuse Norris of, when we expect them to know better. Which reminds me of something I noticed a while ago: The tendency to print re-drawings from other books as illustrations in more modern books. I was flipping through a new book in my collection yesterday, one that was published within the last 10 years and targeted towards reenactors, and recognized several of the costume bits as being taken more or less directly from Braun & Schnieder, but re-sketched by a different artist. There was also an illustration that was straight out of Hunnisett's Period Costume for Stage & Screen 1500-1800! It always puts me off when I find things like that, since B&S's work isn't very historically sound (unless you want to see what Victorians might have worn to a "medieval" fancy dress ball) and it just seems wrong to take from someone like Hunnisett so blatantly. Sure, the average person may not realize it, but people like me who have huge costume libraries will see right away where the artist got his or her "inspiration" from, particularly when they might as well have just photo copied the image out of the original book, it's that similar. Y'know, it's just a pet peeve. ;) Sarah http://www.modehistorique.com On Jul 8, 2004, at 6:58 AM, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > I am not sure why one has to discredit everything he did. I have not > heard > Robin's lecture, but is it commonly accepted that everything > researched in > this time period was just completely made up? Is his work any more > influenced by the period in which he lived than research we do now? > The > illustrations are clearly 'copies' of portraits and while not > particularly > nicely or accurately done doesn't seem reason enough to discredit his > observations about the originals. > > There are not many of us that have access to primary sources, so I > would > look at anything else with a wary eye. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:41:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FfjRM017488 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:41:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Fdod5011802 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:39:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Fdo4g022409; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:39:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ens9.eatel.net (ens9.eatel.net [209.124.203.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i68Fcv4g021573 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:38:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mamarose@eatel.net) Received: (qmail 8329 invoked by uid 89); 8 Jul 2004 15:38:51 -0000 Received: from ip-209-124-255-176.dynamic.eatel.net (HELO eatel.net) (209.124.255.176) by 0 with SMTP; 8 Jul 2004 15:38:51 -0000 Message-ID: <40ED8620.7090809@eatel.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:36:32 -0700 From: Margaret User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <000601c46435$721cc970$6a01a8c0@SG01> <1089.24.4.69.40.1089262626.squirrel@24.4.69.40> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Tiny URL WAS: Special Ribbon source? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO OK, can I make a small complaint, as well as a very good suggestion? This URL: >>http://www.renaissanceribbons.com/cgi-bin/ribbons.cgi?status=search&subcat=& >>type=KEYWORD&category=&ref=&keyword=&search_color=&price_range=&search_ref=4 >>1823&search_type=&display=6&id=1088709332-24.221.40.235-7144&lg=&ps >> as you can see, is 3 lines long. There are 219 characters in it. I had to cut and paste it 3 times to get it to work right. There is a thing on the 'Net called Tiny URL. It turned that long monster into this: http://tinyurl.com/3ajt2 This URL will never wear out, is much easier to handle, and you don't have to cut and paste anything. Can I please implore everyone to give it a try, and take pity on us poor folk? Please? Margaret Rose -- May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, the forsite to know where your going and the insite to know when you've gone to far. -- Irish Toast _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 11:46:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68FkJRM017676 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:46:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Fgxd5012130 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:42:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Fgr4g024678; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:42:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Fgo4g024661 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:42:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bib2v-00033r-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 08:42:49 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Tiny URL Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:42:51 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c46502$3aebd310$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <40ED8620.7090809@eatel.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am all for tiny urls. Here is the website... http://tinyurl.com/ Thanks for the idea...I had no idea...:) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 12:09:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68G9xRM018624 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:09:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68G80d5015218 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:08:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68G7v4g046810; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:07:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68G744g046024 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:07:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10554 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:10:50 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:10:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Coming in late on this, but to fill out some points other people have already made: Kay Staniland had an article on "The Medieval 'Corset'" in Costume, volume 3 (1969, I think). I read it years ago in a library, but it's been out of print for a long time and not one of the ones I have in my own collection, so I can't give you details. To my recollection, she discusses the roots of the corset myth, primarily focusing on that one Winchester Bible picture of the demon with lines on his torso that probably were lacing but were assumed by some historians to show a boned corset. The "stiffened with wood or metal" claim that Norris makes is, I believe, based only on creative interpretation of some of the rather abstract lines in this image. Norris tended to state such things as fact, even when they're only his best guess. Or it may have been a hypothesis of another author; Norris also tended to restate other people's best guesses, often in a more definitive or elaborated manner, without citing his sources. The word "corset" does appear in 14th c. documents; in "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince," Stella Mary Newton spends some time exploring its possible meanings. Mari has already offered some good information on what we do know about this garment based on these written references. As she says, it's clear that it's an outergarment of substantial size/length. For all I know it might be a generic term for the outer-layer long garment sometimes seen in 14th c. art (which would be consistent with the references that indicate that it might be "mi-parti" or "buttoned" or "ronde" or whatever). I've heard this garment called a "goun" ("gown") in period documents, but there's no reason that they would not have had more than one word, perhaps with some nuance of, say, class or season, or perhaps varying between French and English. Today writers tend to use "robe" in the modern sense when referring to these gowns, but in the period, "robe" meant a full outfit (based on references to a "robe of three garments" or a "robe of five garments" or whatever). "Corset" has its root in the word "cors," for "body," BTW. No doubt the presence of the word "corset" in medieval inventories led some 18th or 19th c. costume historians to assume it meant the same thing as the "corset" of their own time. However, I believe even Elizabethan body shapers were not called corsets in the 16th c. (someone please correct me on this if I am wrong), which would suggest that this definition was way post-medieval. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 12:13:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68GDjRM018639 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:13:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68GC5d5015592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:12:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68GC44g050014; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:12:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68GC14g049950 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:12:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10591 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:15:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:15:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Tiny URL In-Reply-To: <000201c46502$3aebd310$6a01a8c0@SG01> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > I am all for tiny urls. Here is the website... http://tinyurl.com/ A plea to all: When you post with a tinyurl (or any of its equivalents, such as makeashorterlink) please also give us the "real" URL. The tiny versions expire after some period, and many of us save posts (or read them in archives) long after they were written. Another service, snipurl, claims to offer permanent links. We'll see. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 12:34:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68GYjRM019356 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:34:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68GWWd5017846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:32:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68GWU4g066446; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:32:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68GWS4g066391 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:32:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i68H3G5c030285 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:03:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i68H3GRB030284 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:03:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407081703.i68H3GRB030284@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A647F@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > There's something similar in Cunningtons' "History of underclothes", where > they interpret the side lacing of a bliaut (?) on a female demon in the 12th > century Winchester bible as a corset. > > Then again, women at Norris' time wore corsets, and women had done so for > centuries, so assumably the absence of corsets never entered his mind? Could it be the images from Alphonso's book of Chess in which the women appear to be wearing some sort of corset under some sort of sideless surcoat? Jerusha (who is *real* intrigued by those images) > From: Lauren Walker [mailto:lauren.walker@comcast.net] > > Hi, > I've had the privilege of seeing Robin Netherton's lecture on the mistakes > of Victorian costume "historians", so when I saw that all the faces in the > illustrations of Herbert Norris' _Medieval Costume and Fashion_ (first > published in 1927) somehow resembled Charles Dana Gibson illustrations, I > knew I could not take this Dover reprint at its word. So my question for > today is: what, if anything, might have possessed Norris to write that women > were wearing corsets during the reign of Henry I, 1100 - 1135? > All conjectures entertained... > Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 12:49:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68Gn8RM019451 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:49:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Gk1d5019162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:46:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Gjx4g077579; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:45:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Gjo4g077472 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:45:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i68HGe5c030482 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:16:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i68HGdpT030481 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:16:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407081716.i68HGdpT030481@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Thank you VERY much for the idea that it's the side-lacing of a bliaut or > gown that may be what Norris is referring to when he writes: "...according > to an illuminated manuscript of the period (_Nero_, C. IV, British Museum), > depicting the devil tight-laced in corsets, it was stiffened with wod or > metal, and laced up the front." I just can't see corsetry as we know it > existing that early -- most people are still in T-tunics in 1100... hmmmm, wonder if this image is online at the BM ... ads to list to look up when paper is finished ..... Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 12:51:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68GpkRM019469 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:51:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Gned5019571 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:49:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Gnc4g080612; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:49:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68GmC4g079347 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:48:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i68HIw5c030501 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:18:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i68HIwc7030500 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:18:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407081718.i68HIwc7030500@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris:was Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: <563E88E0-D0F0-11D8-8D5E-000D9353A386@modehistorique.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Which reminds me of something I noticed a while ago: The tendency to > print re-drawings from other books as illustrations in more modern > books. I was flipping through a new book in my collection yesterday, > one that was published within the last 10 years and targeted towards > reenactors, and recognized several of the costume bits as being taken > more or less directly from Braun & Schnieder, but re-sketched by a > different artist. There was also an illustration that was straight out > of Hunnisett's Period Costume for Stage & Screen 1500-1800! Which book was this so that we can be aware of it? I like Norris too. IMHO, you just have to know to go find the original and look at it -- just like with Braun and Schneider. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 12:59:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68GxDRM019569 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:59:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68GvNd5020399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:57:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68GvM4g087000; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:57:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Gv54g086793 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:57:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i68HRm5c030579 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:27:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i68HRmeH030578 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:27:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407081727.i68HRmeH030578@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: <40ED665A.3040000@uvm.edu> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Obviously, 12th century western european high fashion was characterized > by a move to make clothing more fitted through the body. In addition, > the artwork of the period leading up to this, in both manuscripts and > sculpture, was heavily influenced by the "linear style" or the desire, > almost a compulsion it would seem, to draw many vertical lines! In that > interesting transition between that style and the simpler, more > naturalistic style that evolved in the 13th/14th century are those > fascinating 12th century clothing mysteries that we still argue about: > are those Chartres statues really showing a separate bodice and skirt or > are they just trying to depict, in stone, the linear style combined with > the move toward fitted clothing? Norris saw corsets, some see bodice and > skirt. Who knows what the next generation will see! On this note ... I posted this message to another costume list in June -- many of you probably haven't seen it, so FWIW ... Ladies! I just found something **most** interesting. I had requested a copy of The Burlington Magazine for an article on Renaissance Portraits (which turned out to be a book review, but I digress ...) There's an article in here titled "A further note on a marble capital in the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge" by Alan Borg (June 1968). This issue was available via Jstor from my University Lirary, but I draw your attention to the following figures ... http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/02a00030_l.2.jpg particularly the lady in the lower left ... (now scanned and can be seen more clearly at http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/capital_figure8.jpg and http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/02a00030_l.5.jpg again to the lady in the lower left also scanned by itself http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/capital_figure12.jpg and just for the sake of completeness, the last of the figure plates for this article http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/02a00030_l.6.jpg the full plates are from the Jstor piece -- the individual scans are from the journal itself. Not the nice, elongated lines from Chartres, but a little more "normal" looking. Thoughts? comments? Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 13:03:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68H35RM019597 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:03:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68H1Gd5020820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:01:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68H1D4g090390; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:01:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Gw94g087629 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:58:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i68HSm5c030590 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:28:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i68HSm61030589 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:28:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407081728.i68HSm61030589@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 493 In-Reply-To: <001501c46501$0118ed40$8b9c06cf@bc.hsia.telus.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Help I could not get this link to open tried 4 x's??? is it the right link > all the rest worked?? > > http://www.meridies.org/as/dmir/Costume&Fashion/0928.html opened for me just fine. The meridies.org web site gets all wierd sometimes. Jerusha in Meridies _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 13:16:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68HGqRM019765 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:16:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HD2d5021926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:13:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HCw4g099917; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:12:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HCr4g099836 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:12:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11004 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:16:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:16:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris:was Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > I am not sure why one has to discredit everything he did. I have not > heard Robin's lecture, but is it commonly accepted that everything > researched in this time period was just completely made up? Is his > work any more influenced by the period in which he lived than research > we do now? The illustrations are clearly 'copies' of portraits and > while not particularly nicely or accurately done doesn't seem reason > enough to discredit his observations about the originals. As Lauren was quick to reply, I don't routinely discredit all "older" sources. My lecture, in fact, focuses on distinguishing the many various types of misreadings that one can find in 18th, 19th, and early 20th century histories of medieval costume. Different authors were working for different purposes, and made different kinds of "errors" that -- for them -- were often not errors at all because they were serving a particular audience or purpose. For instance, some works were intended to aid theater costumers or fancy-dress designers; some were meant to build a case for certain dress philosopies; some were meant simply to be pretty coffee-table picture books. The problem often arises when modern people assume these books were done with the sort of rigor and accuracy that we expect from a modern, academic costume history. And when a later costume historian uses this information in a textbook or other seemingly scholarly work, the earlier misconceptions/fantasies/simplifications become enshrined as "fact." Even for many of the more "scholarly" costume historians of the 19th c., the goal was to offer a complete, logical, tidy history of clothing. Thus, when they found a gap in the original evidence, they were quite likely to make up something to fill that gap that made sense to them, *given their own understanding about the nature and structure of clothing.* And when they had trouble interpreting the evidence, or when something looked "wrong" to them, they often "corrected" it. Again, their corrections reflected their own understanding of how clothing was made and worn. These authors saw these steps as part of their role as clothing historians -- they were interpreting and clarifying the evidence for the benefit of the reader. Today, we would consider their degree of interpretation irresponsible and unsupported. It didn't help that the writing style of many of these books is very authoritative. (That's as much a matter of accepted academic rhetorical style as anything else, and in fact you still see that very definitive tone used by some academic authors today. IME, seems to be more common among Europeans; Americans tend to be more likely to insert phrases such as "It appears that" or "Evidence suggests" before certain statements. This probably varies by field and age as well as geography, though.) Another source of problems is that many of these authors were not actually working from primary sources themselves; they were working from the redrawings of earlier artists or costume historians. Certain books on art and costume were particularly widespread and had a great deal of influence on later writers, both in the visual depictions of period art and in the conclusions about what was worn. The later authors often did not cite the intermediaries from whom they picked up images and information, making it sound as though they examined the originals themselves. Once you know the major works, you can start piecing together the chain of copying/repetition by tracing the presence of particular alterations and mistakes. That is, if Author X jazzed up a dress by adding trim that is not in the original, and Author Y shows that same trim, you know that Y copied from X (or from maybe Y copied from Z who copied from X). One of the things I'd like to do (it would take a few solid years of library work to do properly) is to put together a "family tree" of costume works over time -- who copied from whom in the course of two centuries of scholarship. I give some examples of how this works in my lectures, by showing an original work and then tracing the various levels of redrawings from one author to the next. Often the earliest source is the best because it *was* drawn from the original source, and the later you go, the less the images resemble the original. Since the later authors were also basing conclusions on these redrawn images, their assumptions can get way off-base. People who have heard my lecture on Victorian sources will recall the quote I read from a late 19th c. book describing the influence of Ancient Roman costume on women's fashion of c. 1600; the problem is that the very elements the author zeros in on were artifacts of the redrawings in the particular source she was using, which was at least three times removed from the original. Those elements did not appear in the original work -- so her conclusions go right out the window. Norris is a particular problem because his work has been so accessible, and because it is so readable and "complete." He gives us lots of interesting detail and lots of pictures. When I was active in the SCA in the late 1970s, Norris was considered (in many places) to be the best general overview of medieval costume that you could get. I knew an American SCA member living in England who bought up all the copies she could find in used book stores there to send back to her friends in the States. I remember people giving a full Xerox of Norris as a much-valued gift. So it was hugely influential in re-enactment, and will likely remain so because it was recently reprinted by Dover, so is likely to be among the first books that new costumers come across -- and of course it looks so very useful. The problem, though, is that Norris did make a lot of stuff up. Or he took someone else's hypotheses and presented them (without citation) as fact, perhaps filling in extra details of his own. His redrawings were apparently done based on other people's drawings, often with changes of his own. Or they're completely invented, "based on" sources from who-knows-where. For some, the naturalistic positions (in addition to the modern figures and faces) are one clue that he's giving you modern interpretations, not reliable copies of original art. One obvious (and egregious) example is what he did with the Greenland "10-gore" dress (anyone who's heard my talk on this subject might remember this one). Norris reproduced the pattern drawing of Gown 41 from Poul Norlund's original archaeology report. However, where Norlund notes that evidence suggests this is a man's gown, Norris presents it as a woman's. Moreover, he adds a center back opening to the pattern drawing (not present in the original), and goes into detail explaining that this is a "cotehardie," and that the fitting of the dress depends on the material removed at the center back lacing opening. The original Greenland dress, of course, was not fitted, had no lacing, and was certainly not a "cotehardie" in the sense that Norris uses. I suspect that much of the modern tendency to look at the Greenland gowns as a source for fitted "cotehardie" construction derives ultimately from Norris's creative attempt to make this connection (or from other authors that have repeated Norris's errors). Even Norris's "period" quotes and details are suspect; I've tried tracking down certain ones without success, and of course he doesn't source them very well. It's quite possible in some cases that he's taken someone else's creative paraphrase and presented it as the original. I'm sure that there's some good information in Norris somewhere. I used to think it was a good introduction to the period for a new re-enactor or costumer who wanted to get a general overview and could then refine the details with more period-specific scholarly sources. I no longer think that. Over and over, as I've tried to track down the origins of common assumptions about medieval dress, the trail leads back to Norris -- either something he apparently invented, or something he repeated from a questionable earlier source. I think that Norris is responsible for the wide dissemination a lot of the more tenacious modern misconceptions about medieval dress. Any good information that's in that book is so badly tangled up with the misrepresentations that it probably does far more damage than good in helping people form initial impressions. In general, if you find an idea in Norris, the best you can say is that you now have something you might want to look for elsewhere. But I can't trust anything in it unless I've seen a better source for the same point. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 13:24:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68HOCRM019801 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:24:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HLtd5022694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:21:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HLr4g007174; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:21:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HLk4h007015 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:21:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i68HN979017220 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:23:10 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040708101357.07d7fa10@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:21:25 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance In-Reply-To: <200407081718.i68HIwc7030500@sabre.goldsword.com> References: <563E88E0-D0F0-11D8-8D5E-000D9353A386@modehistorique.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Norris bashing X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm going to jump in on this Norris-bashing that seems to happen from time to time. His books contain black-and-white line drawings and a few color plates that are re-do's of famous paintings. His pictures are not trust worthy for detail. I accept that as the case and would never use him as a sole reference, but -- he has given me ideas that caused me to look elsewhere for more/better information. As such, to me, he is valuable. He also has *lots* of textual quotes from translations of original sources, or original sources in English. Again, his work leads to ideas to pursue further elsewhere. As such, I consider him useful. Katie At 01:18 PM 7/8/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > > > Which reminds me of something I noticed a while ago: The tendency to > > print re-drawings from other books as illustrations in more modern > > books. I was flipping through a new book in my collection yesterday, > > one that was published within the last 10 years and targeted towards > > reenactors, and recognized several of the costume bits as being taken > > more or less directly from Braun & Schnieder, but re-sketched by a > > different artist. There was also an illustration that was straight out > > of Hunnisett's Period Costume for Stage & Screen 1500-1800! > >Which book was this so that we can be aware of it? >I like Norris too. IMHO, you just have to know to go find the original >and look at it -- just like with Braun and Schneider. >Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 13:27:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68HRCRM019818 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:27:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HQdd5023158 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:26:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HQc4g011109; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:26:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HQX4g011045 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:26:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11126 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:30:20 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:30:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another painting to find... In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF1A@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Teddy wrote: > > Ribuin, you are an absolute treasure! > > And I very obviously can neither type nor proof-read! Sorry Robin. Ah good. I was trying to figure out whether this was some hitherto unidentified British accent, or a private reference or what... --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 13:39:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68HdBRM019856 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HbDd5024114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:37:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HbA4g019703; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:37:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Hb44h019626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:37:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i68Hcg79021513 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:38:44 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040708103543.07d78e88@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:36:58 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: <200407081727.i68HRmeH030578@sabre.goldsword.com> References: <40ED665A.3040000@uvm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Do you have the dates? Katie >Ladies! I just found something **most** interesting. I had requested >a copy of The Burlington Magazine for an article on Renaissance Portraits >(which turned out to be a book review, but I digress ...) >There's an article in here titled "A further note on a marble capital in >the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge" by Alan Borg (June 1968). >This issue was available via Jstor from my University Lirary, but I >draw your attention to the following figures ... >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/02a00030_l.2.jpg >particularly the lady in the lower left ... >(now scanned and can be seen more clearly at >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/capital_figure8.jpg >and >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/02a00030_l.5.jpg >again to the lady in the lower left >also scanned by itself >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/capital_figure12.jpg >and just for the sake of completeness, the last of the figure plates >for this article >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/02a00030_l.6.jpg >the full plates are from the Jstor piece -- the individual scans are >from the journal itself. >Not the nice, elongated lines from Chartres, but a little more "normal" >looking. >Thoughts? comments? >Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 13:45:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68HjTRM019886 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:45:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Hend5024622 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:40:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Hem4g022933; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:40:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Hde4g021887 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:39:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Appin1@aol.com) Received: from Appin1@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.145.2dc61a72 (3699) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Appin1@aol.com Message-ID: <145.2dc61a72.2e1ee0ca@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:22 EDT Subject: [h-cost] Norris sources To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6024 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin, I suspect that Norris got a lot of his information from Viollet-le-Duc. Have you checked out that source? Kathleen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 13:46:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68HkARM019891 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:46:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HiYd5025057 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:44:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68HiU4g026030; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:44:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Hi94g025715 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:44:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11256 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:47:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:47:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris bashing In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040708101357.07d7fa10@mail.katiesorchids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > His pictures are not trust worthy for detail. I accept that as the > case and would never use him as a sole reference, but -- he has given > me ideas that caused me to look elsewhere for more/better information. > As such, to me, he is valuable. That is precisely the value this book has, indeed. Alas, most of the people who come across Norris don't have the awareness of the need to look elsewhere, and to take it all as a starting point rather than as a definitive source. This is true, I'm afraid, even of medieval historians who don't study costume (but are seeking some bit of data relevant to their own work and find this source in the library) or of costumers who don't study medieval (some of whom are writing larger references and relying on earlier books to fill in the gaps in their own knowledge for their non-specialty periods). Norris has the appearance of being a reliable, complete, helpful source. You are a knowledgeable user, but most people who first find Norris are not. And even when we become more knowledgeable, we may still find that impressions/ideas/tidbits that we got from Norris got lodged into our brain and influence our work later. This is a real handicap. I know I have opened Norris (and certain other sources) in recent years to find some nice little nugget that I've quoted here and there, informally, without remembering where I'd read it 20-odd years ago. And of course then I realize that nugget probably is unsupportable, but it was in my head just the same. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 13:56:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68HuVRM019940 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:56:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Hqud5025903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:52:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Hqp4g032890; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:52:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Hpf4g031866 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:51:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11328 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:55:27 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:55:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris sources In-Reply-To: <145.2dc61a72.2e1ee0ca@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 Appin1@aol.com wrote: > I suspect that Norris got a lot of his information from > Viollet-le-Duc. Have you checked out that source? Oh, definitely. Viollet-le-Duc and Planche are the two elephants in the sandbox when it comes to intermediate sources on medieval costume. When I'm looking for the origins of a particular idea (accurate or not, but usually I'm tracing misconceptions when I do this), the trail usually leads back through one or the other. Norris is just the 20th-century distiller of these two authors (and other sources), and most moderns are more likely to bump into Norris's version than the earlier ones. It will, alas, be a long time before I have the leisure to sit down with all the sources on a table in front of me at the same time ... for a year or so, while I track the various relationships. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 14:11:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68IBuRM020033 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:11:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68I9jd5028081 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:09:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68I9g4g048121; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:09:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68I074g039329 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:00:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f46.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.70]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 783B947FE08 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:59:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002f01c46515$65c2f290$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:00:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey! That is serious work. Whow!!! Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lauren Walker" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress > I'm worse. I'm a writer, and I'll dress up like my main character while I > work! > Lauren > > > > From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows > > > > >> Have you ever thoaght the same, dressing up your hero / heroin from a novel? > > > > Whenever I read anything historical, I always picture the characters in > > costumes. These include the hero/heroine, the bad guys, or even the people > > I only read about for a paragraph or two. If I really care about the > > characters I may invent more than one outfit for them, as the novel > > progresses. > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 14:12:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68ICKRM020039 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:12:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IAHd5028211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:10:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IAF4g048674; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:10:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68I8U4g046928 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:08:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA19524 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:08:18 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Norris sources Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:08:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <145.2dc61a72.2e1ee0ca@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Considering that Norris was writing in the inter-war period, I consider his information a pretty good starting point. It was a pity he didn't survive to complete his work on the 17th and 18th centuries as the 17th century especially tends to be ignored, fashion-wise. What I miss are research and books that ignore or bash past fashions because they don't fit the current aesthetic. For example most current historians write as if all stays and corsets were "bad" and assume most wearers wore them too tight. The era or the crinoline and bustle also gets bashed. Surviving photographic evidence proves that most women didn't "tight lace" nor did they wear the most extreme bustles and crins. Some photographs of the rich and fashionable show evidence of retouching and/or were shot in a way to make the sitter appear closest to the fashionable ideal. Will historians of 50 and more years from now think that most women overspent on clothing and wore Jimmy Choos because the women on "Sex and the City" did. Will they assume that most women always dieted or resorted to surgery because some do? From their hindsight vantage point, will they critique what we wore and how we wore it with a negative eye? Cindy Abel -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Appin1@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 12:39 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Norris sources Robin, I suspect that Norris got a lot of his information from Viollet-le-Duc. Have you checked out that source? Kathleen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 14:12:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68ICMRM020040 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:12:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IA3d5028156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:10:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IA04g048419; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:10:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68I1c4g040570 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:01:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from reddawn.net (js.reddawn.net [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26354264A for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:24:30 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <40ED8BFF.7010500@reddawn.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:01:35 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego References: <20040707122403.84652.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> <40ED806A.4000007@eatel.net> <40ED6737.8010000@uvm.edu> In-Reply-To: <40ED6737.8010000@uvm.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hope Greenberg wrote: > In keeping with the "I'm going to such-and-such a place. . .any must see > costume/fabric places" theme, any recommendations for the San Diego area? > I'll 2nd the request. I just found out today that my husband and I may be there on business in 2 weeks. Probably won't get to shop much, we're busy until at least 7pm each day, but I would love a beach recommendation for romantic evening walks... Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 14:17:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68IHiRM020067 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:17:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IH1d5028843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:17:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IGx4g054680; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:16:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68ID94g051291 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:13:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kat@grendal.rain.com) Received: from KATHOUSE (ip104.129.du.eli.iinet.com [67.136.129.104]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F4C6A516 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:13:08 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:13:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris sources Message-ID: <40ED2C43.17872.4BE561E@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <145.2dc61a72.2e1ee0ca@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I suspect that Norris got a lot of his information from > Viollet-le-Duc. Have you checked out that source? I have a copy of Viollet-le-Duc's encyclopedia. Some of Norris' drawings are taken directly from there. And example is Norris' picture of a bliaut where the person appears to be combing her hair. That is *exactly* the same as Viollet-le-Duc's. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 14:27:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68IRpRM020139 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:27:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IPqd5029560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:25:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IPh4g062199; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:25:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IPd4g062139 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:25:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f46.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.70]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A85147FE51 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:25:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <008801c46518$ffbbe160$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:25:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] sources X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There was a very skilled and knolledged lady here in Denmark who made lots of costume history books with patterns of original garments. 18th century was her speciallity. Yeat she had gotten the idea of the wooden busk very wrong. She claimed that the busk was placed beneath the breasts horizontally and that when you laced the corset in the back, the busk mooved up and pressed the breasts up. This was a very bad error, but besides from that, she still is my favourite costume historian. She is dead now, her name is Ellen Andersen. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 14:29:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68ITrRM020150 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:29:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68ISkd5029781 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:28:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68ISj4g064569; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:28:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IRa4g063731 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:27:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kat@grendal.rain.com) Received: from KATHOUSE (ip104.129.du.eli.iinet.com [67.136.129.104]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262956E419 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:27:35 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 11:27:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] Norris sources Message-ID: <40ED2FA1.433.4CB7D0F@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <145.2dc61a72.2e1ee0ca@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Will historians of 50 and more years from now think that most women > overspent on clothing and wore Jimmy Choos because the women on "Sex > and the City" did. Will they assume that most women always dieted or > resorted to surgery because some do? From their hindsight vantage > point, will they critique what we wore and how we wore it with a > negative eye? Of course they will. Unless they have studied the time enough to know what *real* people (as opposed to magazine and TV people) wore, they're going to look at it as "those silly people. Look what they did" the same as many socalled costume historians have done over time. I suspect that they will assume that *all* women were on fad diets and had surgery. After all, it's discussed constantly in the media now as if it is 100% of the people. And chances are that's the sort of source they'll use. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 14:43:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68IhvRM020187 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:43:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Ifud5001305 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:41:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Ifr4g075099; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:41:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from secure4.netll.com (secure4.netll.com [208.38.152.40]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Ifl4h074932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:41:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lithiate@secure4.netll.com) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.34) id 1BidqB-0007yR-99 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:41:51 -0400 From: "Sarah Lorraine" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris bashing X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.26 X-IPAddress: 156.41.170.32 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:41:51 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I wasn't Norris-bashing in my original post that you quoted below, just to be clear. It's ironic in some ways because I find books like Winter & Savoy's Elizabethan Costume 1555-1585 to be absolutely unuseable, whereas Norris' Tudor Costume & Fashion ranks highly on my list of good basic books to have in your 16th century costume library. It's completely based off of my own prejudices, of course. I know plenty of people who would disagree with me and say I've got it backwards. ;) Sarah http://www.modehistorique.com > I'm going to jump in on this Norris-bashing that seems to happen from time > to time. > > His books contain black-and-white line drawings and a few color plates that > are re-do's of famous paintings. > > His pictures are not trust worthy for detail. I accept that as the case and > would never use him as a sole reference, but -- he has given me ideas that > caused me to look elsewhere for more/better information. As such, to me, he > is valuable. > > He also has *lots* of textual quotes from translations of original sources, > or original sources in English. Again, his work leads to ideas to pursue > further elsewhere. As such, I consider him useful. > > Katie > > At 01:18 PM 7/8/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > Which reminds me of something I noticed a while ago: The tendency to > > > print re-drawings from other books as illustrations in more modern > > > books. I was flipping through a new book in my collection yesterday, > > > one that was published within the last 10 years and targeted towards > > > reenactors, and recognized several of the costume bits as being taken > > > more or less directly from Braun & Schnieder, but re-sketched by a > > > different artist. There was also an illustration that was straight out > > > of Hunnisett's Period Costume for Stage & Screen 1500-1800! > > > >Which book was this so that we can be aware of it? > >I like Norris too. IMHO, you just have to know to go find the original > >and look at it -- just like with Braun and Schneider. > >Jerusha > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > -- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 14:55:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68ItERM020240 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:55:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IqId5002345 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:52:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68IqF4g083538; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:52:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41505.mail.yahoo.com (web41505.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.88]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i68IqA4g083405 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:52:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celtic_dragonrider@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040708185203.40772.qmail@web41505.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.82.52.78] by web41505.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:52:03 EDT Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:52:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Janet Renzetti Subject: Re: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <40ED6737.8010000@uvm.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Medieval Times exists there too..... :) I don't do any shopping while I m at these palces. NO time, I hang out with my parents and my sibings. NOw I take my kids, so it is hard to take an army to the fabric stores or some of the museums and hope that they keep still. Janet Hope Greenberg wrote: In keeping with the "I'm going to such-and-such a place. . .any must see costume/fabric places" theme, any recommendations for the San Diego area? - Hope _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 15:39:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68JdHRM020441 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:39:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68JbMd5006477 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:37:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68JbI4g019705; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:37:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from whowhere.com (in02-fes1.whowhere.com [209.202.220.218]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i68JbD4g019510 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:37:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@eudoramail.com) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by whowhere.com; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:36:52 -0000 To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:36:52 0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Priority: 3 Subject: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? X-Sender-Ip: 130.88.96.68 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings, If you are discussing clothing like that seen here: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/andalus13c.html (particularly the image just above the men's clothing section) there are extant garments from Spanish royal tombs so we actually have a pretty good idea of how those work. The title of the book about the clothing includes the Monasterio de Santa María La Real de Las Huelgas (Burgos) in its title but I don't have it here and can't remember the correct title... Cheers, Danielle --------- Original Message --------- DATE: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:03:16 From: Susan Farmer To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: >> There's something similar in Cunningtons' "History of underclothes", where >> they interpret the side lacing of a bliaut (?) on a female demon in the 12th >> century Winchester bible as a corset. >> >> Then again, women at Norris' time wore corsets, and women had done so for >> centuries, so assumably the absence of corsets never entered his mind? > >Could it be the images from Alphonso's book of Chess in which the women appear >to be wearing some sort of corset under some sort of sideless surcoat? > >Jerusha (who is *real* intrigued by those images) Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 16:47:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68KlNRM020796 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:47:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Kj3d5013646 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:45:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Kiw4g074953; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:44:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Kir4g074863 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:44:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0408.dialsprint.net ([63.186.145.154]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bifl9-0004qc-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:44:48 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:45:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Attention Bob Dorr-Accordion stitch? From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000701c464a5$1d228700$0201a8c0@domain> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, is that herringbone? I learned the stitch you're describing from a woman who was educated in a French convent as a young girl. She and I were local-jobbing chorus members in a summer-stock company and were helping the costumes mistress hem costumes one afternoon, and she taught me the stitch, but she didn't give it a name. Said they used it in the convent because every stitch was crossed (that back-stitch part) in honor of the crucifixion. Appropriately enough, the show we were in rehearsal for was Sound of Music. It's a nice stitch, very pretty on the "wrong" side and almost invisible on the "right" side, firm but with a little give (which is good for hems). I use it now when I want to show off. Glad to have a name for it--I've been calling it the "convent stitch"! --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer on 7/8/04 12:36 AM, bobd2 at bobd2@tellink.net wrote: >> Subject: [h-cost] Attention Bob Dorr-Accordion stitch? >>> I have a suspicion that this might be something like herringbone stitch, >> but >>> without the backstitching. >> >>> Bob Dorr-Robert of Stonemarche >> >> [Sg] Can you explain what you mean by without the back stitch...I think I >> understand a basic herringbone stitch. > I might be using the wrong name for the stitch, I learned how to sew, and > basic embroidery from my Pepere (mostly french speaking grandfather). > > As I understood herringbone for hems/attaching/etc is that it's worked from > left to right, with the point of the needle pointing left. Like a > backstitch. You'd catch the upper fabric with a little stitch, and the > thread would come out and go diagonally downwards (Like an X where the top > is a backstitch) and then do the same on the bottom. > > What I was trying to describe is more diagonally up and down Like VVVV with > the point of the needle pointing right instead, so that the thread is easier > to tug and tighten or loosen. > > I'm hoping that makes sense. If not, I can try to take a picture of large > stitches worked in yarn and send them via e-mail. > > Bob Dorr-Robert of Stonemarche > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 16:59:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68KxoRM021024 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:59:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Kugd5014803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:56:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Kuf4g084311; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:56:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pengo.systems.pipex.net (pengo.systems.pipex.net [62.241.160.193]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Kuc4g084237 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:56:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from linda.walton@dsl.pipex.com) Received: from bella (81-86-114-151.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.114.151]) by pengo.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E8A2A4C0018A for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:56:33 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <00e601c4652d$fcfa1cc0$97725651@bella> From: "Linda Walton" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Attention Bob Dorr-Accordion stitch? Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:56:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Oh, is that herringbone? (snip) > Glad to have a name for it--I've been > calling it the "convent stitch"! And I've always thought of it as "sailor's hemstitch", because the man who taught me how to do it had himself been trained to use it for the hems of his bell-bottoms while a sailor in the (British) Royal Navy. He included a backstitch every fourth time on the folded edge, which was also in the rules. Linda Walton. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 17:00:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68L08RM021031 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:00:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68KxYd5015078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:59:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68KxY4g086565; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:59:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68KwZ4g085776 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:58:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-83-96.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.83.96]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i68KwdXA000987 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:58:44 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040708122433.01839180@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:25:24 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tiny URL WAS: Special Ribbon source? In-Reply-To: <40ED8620.7090809@eatel.net> References: <000601c46435$721cc970$6a01a8c0@SG01> <1089.24.4.69.40.1089262626.squirrel@24.4.69.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >>>http://www.renaissanceribbons.com/cgi-bin/ribbons.cgi?status=search&subcat=& >>>type=KEYWORD&category=&ref=&keyword=&search_color=&price_range=&search_ref=4 >>>1823&search_type=&display=6&id=1088709332-24.221.40.235-7144&lg=&ps >http://tinyurl.com/3ajt2 The first looks like what comes out of my search engine, and the second looks like the actual one. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 17:01:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68L1aRM021048 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:01:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Kxfd5015101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:59:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Kxf4g086664; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:59:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Kwh4g085891 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:58:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-83-96.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.83.96]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i68KwdXC000987 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:58:51 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040708122720.023699b0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 12:34:16 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego In-Reply-To: <40ED8BFF.7010500@reddawn.net> References: <40ED6737.8010000@uvm.edu> <20040707122403.84652.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> <40ED806A.4000007@eatel.net> <40ED6737.8010000@uvm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >> In keeping with the "I'm going to such-and-such a place. . .any must see >> costume/fabric places" theme, any recommendations for the San Diego area? There used to be a place called something like Sew And Sew, in Mission Valley someplace, which was trim heaven. There also used to be a place in Bazar del Mundo, in Old Town (San Diego), which always had good imported ethnic fabric. And there used to be an interesting fabric store in Tijuana, Mexico, a block off of Avenida Revolution, that was always good to go to if you wanted either glitz fabric or just to see how things were done in another country. (This place sold almost exclusively to locals, being a block off of the main tourist street.) This information is probably several years out of date, and I will check all of these when I go down to visit in a couple of weeks. >I'll 2nd the request. I just found out today that my husband and I may >be there on business in 2 weeks. Probably won't get to shop much, we're >busy until at least 7pm each day, but I would love a beach >recommendation for romantic evening walks... I'll get there July 19th, after driving all day, and will stay for at least a few days. You could see - me! But the best place for a romantic walk along the beach has to be in front of the Hotel del Coronado. The place was built in the late 1800s and still looks it. It's gorgeous, and doesn't cost to look at, inside and out. And since the clientele is mostly rich, you can get the feel of an old time rich-people resort as you walk their beach. The Crown Room, their fanciest restaurant, is always out of my price range, but the ceiling was all put together with wood pegs, no metal nails, by craftsmen from someplace like the Phillipines. (I grew up in San Diego and heard lots of stories.) CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 17:25:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68LPtRM021152 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:25:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LO7d5017644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:24:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LO34g006400; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:24:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LNw4g006191 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:24:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f46.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.70]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A083D5EE01B for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:23:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c46531$dca26690$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:23:49 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] dying lace X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, After that i discovered (when looking at the big photostate of the portrait of the danish courdress i am to make) that the sleaves are made of lace and not sheer fabric, i have desided to use a cotton lace i imported. This lace is white, and i need it to be ivory. How and wich colour would you use for this? The lace will be stitched to a silk organza because i dont want to startch the lace, it wont hold for long. Therefore the organza. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 17:37:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68LbaRM021205 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:37:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LXWd5018352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:33:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LXO4g013861; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:33:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fed1rmmtao09.cox.net (fed1rmmtao09.cox.net [68.230.241.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LXK4g013747 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:33:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mudsleidi@cox.net) Received: from smtp.west.cox.net ([172.18.180.53]) by fed1rmmtao09.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with SMTP id <20040708213315.MQLM6778.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:33:15 -0400 From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:33:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040708213315.MQLM6778.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm still compiling a list of places, but I can at least respond to the post below. Sew and So is mostly trims and buttons and bridal "stuff". Fabulous selection. They have moved, though, and are in Clairemont Mesa (will post address info in my other post). The shop in Bazaar del Mundo in Old Town is still there, and though expensive, they do have a small selection of trims and fancy cottons and designer silks, but best of all, they have Folkwear Patterns. There's also another great little shop around the corner from this one, for trims--heaven for fiber artists. I've not been to the fabric store in Tijuana, but Tijuana has gotten a major face lift since you have probably been there, Carolyn, and may or not still be there. I'm compiling a list of fabric and notions stores, and museums (and romantic strolling beaches--Hotel del is a gorgeous spot) and will post in a bit. Stay tuned! Heidi called out of lurking again... snip: >>There used to be a place called something like Sew And >>Sew, in Mission Valley someplace, which was trim heaven. There also used to be a place in Bazar del Mundo, in Old Town (San Diego), which always had good imported ethnic fabric. And there used to be an interesting fabric store in Tijuana, Mexico, a block off of Avenida Revolution, that was always good to go to if you wanted either glitz fabric or just to see how things were done in another country. (This place sold almost exclusively to locals, being a block off of the main tourist street.) This information is probably several years out of date, and I will check all of these when I go down to visit in a couple of weeks. >I'll 2nd the request. I just found out today that my husband and I may >be there on business in 2 weeks. Probably won't get to shop much, we're >busy until at least 7pm each day, but I would love a beach >recommendation for romantic evening walks... I'll get there July 19th, after driving all day, and will stay for at least a few days. You could see - me! But the best place for a romantic walk along the beach has to be in front of the Hotel del Coronado. The place was built in the late 1800s and still looks it. It's gorgeous, and doesn't cost to look at, inside and out. And since the clientele is mostly rich, you can get the feel of an old time rich-people resort as you walk their beach. The Crown Room, their fanciest restaurant, is always out of my price range, but the ceiling was all put together with wood pegs, no metal nails, by craftsmen from someplace like the Phillipines. (I grew up in San Diego and heard lots of stories.) CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 17:41:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68LfLRM021211 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:41:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Lehd5019088 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:40:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Lee4g019474; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:40:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LeX4g019342 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:40:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1a8.25b58bc5 (18251) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:40:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1a8.25b58bc5.2e1f1949@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:40:25 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] dyeing lace To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/8/04 4:24:57 PM Central Daylight Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: How and wich colour would you use for this? I would tea-dye the lace. It's dirt cheap (all you need is a few tea bags), and it's an authentic method. Also, you can control the amount of color that you add to the lace, which cannot be said of some manufactured dyes. Another benefit is that I've never tea-dyed anything that did not take the color (it seems to work on all types of fabric/blends), and it never damages the item being dyed either. A good webpage with basic instructions: http://www.geocities.com/kraftproject/craft-tea-dying.html One major caveat: Do not use teas that have any fruit content, unless you want your tea dyed lace or fabric to come out fruit colored. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 17:47:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68LlpRM021237 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:47:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Lk3d5019670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:46:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Lk24g023510; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:46:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (imo-m21.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Ljv4g023367 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:45:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.a0.10f552fd (18251) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:45:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:45:44 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] sources To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/8/04 1:26:33 PM Central Daylight Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: Yeat she had gotten the idea of the wooden busk very wrong. She claimed that the busk was placed beneath the breasts horizontally and that when you laced the corset in the back, the busk mooved up and pressed the breasts up. Actually, I've seen many references to cross bracing of wood, reeds or whalebone being added horizontally at the front of a corset; usually in conjunction with, not instead of, a vertical busk. Its intent was exactly that it pressed things in the proper direction as the corset was laced. Perhaps she was just a little confused as to how horizontal busks or boning was used, rather than completely wrong. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 17:56:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68LuVRM021291 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:56:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LoNd5020070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:50:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LoL4g026818; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:50:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Lko4g024170 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:46:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA14978 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:46:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] dying lace Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:46:49 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <000701c46531$dca26690$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There are special tea dyes sold on this side of the pond, but if your lace is a natural fiber, you can use tea or coffee as a dye. Dissolve the tea or coffee in hot water completely. Either way, test by doing a sample first. You can control the color by doing various samples in different strengths of dye and different dye times. Probably just varying the dye times alone should be enough. Dye each sample, rinse in cold water throughly with a little vinager to set the dye, and iron dry. Make sure you note the dye times for each sample. See which one you like best and then mix up your full-size dye/water amounts and dye your lace for the time of the sample you liked best. >From personal experience with tea, fabric, and hair dyes(the first two for doll clothing, the last for my own hair), it is better overall to have to dye a too light result a little darker than to try to lighten a too-dark result. Good luck! Cindy Abel -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 4:24 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] dying lace Hi, After that i discovered (when looking at the big photostate of the portrait of the danish courdress i am to make) that the sleaves are made of lace and not sheer fabric, i have desided to use a cotton lace i imported. This lace is white, and i need it to be ivory. How and wich colour would you use for this? The lace will be stitched to a silk organza because i dont want to startch the lace, it wont hold for long. Therefore the organza. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 17:56:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68LuiRM021294 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:56:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LsFd5020419 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:54:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68LsD4g029816; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:54:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68Lru4g029478 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:53:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from reddawn.net (js.reddawn.net [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25D594264A for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:16:50 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <40EDC273.6040309@reddawn.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 16:53:55 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego References: <20040708213315.MQLM6778.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> In-Reply-To: <20040708213315.MQLM6778.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO mudsleidi@cox.net wrote: > I'm compiling a list of fabric and notions stores, and museums (and romantic strolling beaches--Hotel del is a gorgeous spot) and will post in a bit. Stay tuned! > > Heidi Thanks! We've asked if the company will send us out a day early so we can look around. I don't know if I'll do much fabric shopping, but the beach is definitely on my list. I've been in Kansas too long! Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 18:25:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68MPURM021373 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 18:25:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68MNZd5023175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:23:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68MNV4g051878; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:23:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68MNS4g051843 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:23:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BihId-0001uo-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:23:27 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:23:30 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c4653a$33054b30$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Attention Bjarne...what happened to these pictures? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i68MPURM021373 Status: RO Hi Bjarne, what happened to the pictures of your final project from school? And also, do you by any chance have a picture of the underpinnings that go with this dress? What I am after is do you make the front in this gown farthingale flat, or is it completely round with the waist hole just shifted forward. http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/underpinnings_.htm Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 19:03:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68N3XRM021510 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:03:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68N1cd5026306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:01:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68N1X4g077719; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:01:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68N134g077361 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:01:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i68NVk5c033542 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:31:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i68NVgOT033539 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:31:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407082331.i68NVgOT033539@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040708103543.07d78e88@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Do you have the dates? I think all the article said is "late 12th century" but I'll check to make sure. Jerusha > >Ladies! I just found something **most** interesting. I had requested > >a copy of The Burlington Magazine for an article on Renaissance Portraits > >(which turned out to be a book review, but I digress ...) > >There's an article in here titled "A further note on a marble capital in > >the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge" by Alan Borg (June 1968). > >This issue was available via Jstor from my University Lirary, but I > >draw your attention to the following figures ... > >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/02a00030_l.2.jpg > >particularly the lady in the lower left ... > >(now scanned and can be seen more clearly at > >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/capital_figure8.jpg > >and > >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/02a00030_l.5.jpg > >again to the lady in the lower left > >also scanned by itself > >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/capital_figure12.jpg > >and just for the sake of completeness, the last of the figure plates > >for this article > >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/02a00030_l.6.jpg > >the full plates are from the Jstor piece -- the individual scans are > >from the journal itself. > >Not the nice, elongated lines from Chartres, but a little more "normal" > >looking. > >Thoughts? comments? > >Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 19:22:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i68NMaRM021605 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:22:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68NLwd5027800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:21:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68NLu4g090341; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:21:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i68NLn4g090259 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:21:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i68Nqe5c033798 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:52:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i68NqenS033797 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:52:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407082352.i68NqenS033797@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > If you are discussing clothing like that seen here: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/andalus13c.html (particularly the image just above the men's clothing section) there are extant garments from Spanish royal tombs so we actually have a pretty good idea of how those work. The title of the book about the clothing includes the Monasterio de Santa María La Real de Las Huelgas (Burgos) in its title but I don't have it here and can't remember the correct title... > I was speaking specifically of images like http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess16R.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess60R.jpg and to a lesser extent http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_Bookchess57V.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess32R.jpg To my eyes, you can see 3 distinct layers in the first two images -- a "chemise/underdress" the laced *thing* around her waist, and the odd sideless surcoat. Jerusha (I like "lilinah"'s pages BTW ...) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:21:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i691LkRM021968 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:21:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691L9d5005958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:21:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691Kx4g057648; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:20:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from incoming.SIGENETICS.com ([209.172.110.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691Kv4g057573 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:20:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sbuchler@silicongenetics.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [h-cost] dying lace Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 18:20:49 -0700 Message-ID: <0D3431E0FD777844A4ED9507E4D698D90CBC96@incoming.sigenetics.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 497 Thread-Index: AcRlNBAIJgHzF7PAT2yp1vCgGG+FuQAHbTww From: "Sunny Buchler" To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i691Kv4g057573 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > i have desided to use a cotton lace i imported. > This lace is white, and i need it to be ivory. > How and wich colour would you use for this? I would try a very light tea-dye with a brown to yellow-ish tea. In case you've never done it, tea-dying is: 1) Make a pot of tea 2) Optional: get fabric wet 3) Soak the fabric in the tea 4) Rinse the fabric out 5) Dry fabric (line dry, in drying, using iron - it doesn't matter) Cotton takes tea-dying very well, and very fast, so you'll want to be careful how long you leave the fabric in the tea. I've found that the actual tea I use affects the end color quite a lot: Peach tea gave a very sepia-tone and green tea gave a sickly yellow-green color. You'll probably want a standard black tea with a very short soak. Always test tea-dying out first if you need an exact color -- the fabric affects the way the dye turns out quite a lot. -sunny _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:42:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i691gURM022009 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:42:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691fkd5007250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:41:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691fi4g068215; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:41:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691fY4h068125 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:41:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i691kkoB030262 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:46:46 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i691kk6D030261 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:46:46 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris bashing Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:46:45 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407082146.45645.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 08 July 2004 02:41 pm, Sarah Lorraine wrote: > I wasn't Norris-bashing in my original post that you quoted below, just > to be clear. It's ironic in some ways because I find books like Winter > & Savoy's Elizabethan Costume 1555-1585 to be absolutely unuseable, > whereas Norris' Tudor Costume & Fashion ranks highly on my list of good > basic books to have in your 16th century costume library. It's > completely based off of my own prejudices, of course. I know plenty of > people who would disagree with me and say I've got it backwards. ;) > The real lesson is still this; view secondary sources with a skeptical eye, and always seek to confirm unprovenanced information. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:46:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i691klRM022044 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:46:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691j0d5007430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:45:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691ix4g069861; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:45:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691iu4g069830 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:44:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14246 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:48:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:48:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: <200407082352.i68NqenS033797@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > I was speaking specifically of images like > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess16R.jpg > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess60R.jpg > and to a lesser extent > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_Bookchess57V.jpg > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess32R.jpg The last one, with its single-side lacing, most closely resembles (in my recollection) the Burgos finds. But I'd have to haul out the book to remember the details -- I do my best to stay away from Spanish clothing. (When I went to Spain, I looked almost exclusively at Flemish art!) Of some importance here is the identification on the images. If I remember right, some of the images in the Book of Chess specifically identify the individuals as being Eastern (or is it Arab?). It may be that the clothing is distinctly "foreign" for those people. Some of the headdresses look pretty exotic, that's for sure. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:51:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i691pTRM022051 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:51:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691mFd5007716 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:48:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691mE4g071435; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:48:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691jG4h070017 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:45:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i691oSJb030274 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:50:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i691oSPM030273 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:50:28 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris sources Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:50:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407082150.27698.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 08 July 2004 02:08 pm, Cindy Abel wrote: [snip] > Will historians of 50 and more years from now think that most women > overspent on clothing and wore Jimmy Choos because the women on "Sex and > the City" did. Will they assume that most women always dieted or resorted > to surgery because some do? From their hindsight vantage point, will they > critique what we wore and how we wore it with a negative eye? Absolutely. I'm convinced of it. Just be glad you won't be around to see it. :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:56:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i691uMRM022078 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:56:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691rKd5008031 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:53:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691rI4g073862; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:53:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691rG4g073839 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:53:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from casamai@sbcglobal.net) Received: from casamai (ppp-65-69-55-168.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net [65.69.55.168]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i691rFaN008161 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:53:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <006501c46557$ff653740$0a01a8c0@sbcglobal.net> From: "Bruce & Nora Mai" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1a8.25b58bc5.2e1f1949@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] dyeing lace Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:56:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Tea dye is a very good choice; generally it is less harmful than most dyes. But it can certainly damage an item just like any other dye (it is acid, after all). So be careful to rinse thoroughly to remove any excess tea. Nora ----- Original Message ----- From: > Another benefit is that I've never tea-dyed anything that did not take the > color (it seems to work on all types of fabric/blends), and it never damages the > item being dyed either. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:56:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i691uuRM022081 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:56:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691tFd5008112 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:55:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691tE4g074771; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:55:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691sj4g074487 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:54:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.162.31afdb6a (18251) for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:54:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <162.31afdb6a.2e1f54da@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:54:34 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris sources To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/8/04 8:48:34 PM Central Daylight Time, cathy@thyrsus.com writes: Absolutely. I'm convinced of it. Just be glad you won't be around to see it. :-) I just pray that no one ever publishes the photo of me with my bug-screen bangs, Madonna rubber bracelets covering my entire forearms, and my polka-dotted tulle petticoat. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 21:59:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i691xZRM022088 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:59:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691vdd5008230 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:57:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691vd4g075924; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:57:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691tg4g074983 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:55:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-206-244.cvip.net [129.8.206.244]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FD24431F for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 18:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040708184828.020e36b8@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:55:39 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego In-Reply-To: <40ED8BFF.7010500@reddawn.net> References: <40ED6737.8010000@uvm.edu> <20040707122403.84652.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> <40ED806A.4000007@eatel.net> <40ED6737.8010000@uvm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 01:01 PM 7/8/2004 -0500, you wrote: >but I would love a beach recommendation for romantic evening walks... It has been years since I lived there, but my recommendation for an evening walk, besides the Hotel, is a strip of beach in La Jolla, near the Scripts Institute's pier. There is a shelf there, just under the water level, that the tides will rush onto and upward, making such a large whooshing noise, which is actually for me rather relaxing. Other beaches just seemed, well a bit quiet and all, and that sound just would calm me down. I also liked seeing the ocean spike upwards as well. I wish I could tell you how to get there, but my La Jolla living friends would drive there at night, and I don't remember all the landmarks other than it was by that particular pier. They also had some tide pools you could watch sea critters in. And I remember that there was lighting by that pier so we could see where we were walking. Other than that, enjoy Old Town if you can. I usually enjoyed myself there. Also enjoyed the Museum and the SD Zoo (gotta love koalas). The Wild Animal park was just being built, so I never did get to see that, but I understand that is enjoyable, too. Enjoy your trip! Kimiko Kimiko Small Owner ~ DreamTime Studios http://www.dreamtime-studios.com Fresno, CA, USA "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 22:01:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6921aRM022100 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:01:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691xdd5008333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:59:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i691xc4g076961; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:59:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ens9.eatel.net (ens9.eatel.net [209.124.203.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i691vE4g075691 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:57:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mamarose@eatel.net) Received: (qmail 8195 invoked by uid 89); 9 Jul 2004 01:57:08 -0000 Received: from ip-209-124-255-176.dynamic.eatel.net (HELO eatel.net) (209.124.255.176) by 0 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2004 01:57:08 -0000 Message-ID: <40EE177B.4040400@eatel.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:56:43 -0700 From: Margaret User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 493 References: <200407080422.i684M84h056226@net.indra.com> <001501c46501$0118ed40$8b9c06cf@bc.hsia.telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Help I could not get this link to open tried 4 x's??? is it the right link >all the rest worked?? > >http://www.meridies.org/as/dmir/Costume&Fashion/0928.html > > It's working fine on my end. Might just have been an off day. Try it again. Margaret -- May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, the foresight to know where your going and the insight to know when you've gone to far. -- Irish Toast _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 22:43:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i692h8RM022188 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:43:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i692fKd5011275 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:41:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i692fH4g004142; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:41:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i692fF4g004115 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:41:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m113.in-tch.com [216.166.191.113]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i692Gc622404 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:16:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40EE06B5.7050909@in-tch.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:45:09 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF1B@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF1B@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ah, well.... Some of my family was in town the other week and we went to our local mongolian grill. I had a red curry dish, and thought of you and Tom. Ours isn't bad, but it's not London, and there's no lamb! OCC: I finally have the straw hat for my incipient Flemish outfit, which I'm working towards in fits and starts, with the aim of having it done by autumn. The hat's great--it reminds me a bit of an oversized, straw frisbee with the large brim and low crown. It'll be great, too, if I ever make something 18th c. colonial (US). I assume I'll be keeping it on my head by pinning it to my coif....One of my friends tried it on, and I immediately was struck by the profound urge to see her in a gown like that one Michelle Pfeiffer wears in the garden scene in _Dangerous Liaisons_. All you 18th c. types on this list are definitely contagious! Oh, and Teddy...I finally found the perfect! surcoat fabric about a year ago, to go over the flaming pink fitted gown. Bright tangerine velvet . And it is *quite* distinctly your fault! --sue, glad she's in sunny summer Montana, and not in Australia (brrrr) Teddy wrote: >>*snort* >>Do you still have that rainbow cat waistcoat? > > > Yep, though the extra poundage will probably make it a tad too tight to > wear these days. > > >>--sue, who just finished an orange-and-green boot sock on Monday! > > > Yaaay! > > Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 23:30:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i693UFRM022431 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:30:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693SRd5013932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:28:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693SN4g028900; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:28:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693SK4g028865 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:28:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i693xD5c035535 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:59:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i693xDf9035534 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:59:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407090359.i693xDf9035534@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > > > I was speaking specifically of images like > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess16R.jpg > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess60R.jpg > > and to a lesser extent > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_Bookchess57V.jpg > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess32R.jpg > > The last one, with its single-side lacing, most closely resembles (in my > recollection) the Burgos finds. But I'd have to haul out the book to > remember the details -- I do my best to stay away from Spanish clothing. > (When I went to Spain, I looked almost exclusively at Flemish art!) I know very little about Spanish Garb other than 16th century Spanish Garb -- and even then, it ain't much! > Of some importance here is the identification on the images. If I remember > right, some of the images in the Book of Chess specifically identify the > individuals as being Eastern (or is it Arab?). It may be that the clothing > is distinctly "foreign" for those people. Some of the headdresses look > pretty exotic, that's for sure. Oh, yeah. That's part of what intrigues me so about these images. They don't look like anything I've ever seen anywhere else! The Arabic women are clearly identidifed as muslim. It's like "Christian and Muslim Woman at chess" they look rather different like in 57V above -- the woman on the right is identified as Muslim. The woman in http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess54R.jpg is also identified as a Mulsim woman. You can see the whole manuscript at http://games.rengeekcentral.com/ For those who don't know, it was commissioned between 1251 and 1282 A.D. by Alphonso X, King of Leon and Castile. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 23:35:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i693ZiRM022459 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:35:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693Xtd5014490 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:33:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693Xq4g031816; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:33:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav117.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.147]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693Xk4g031720 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:33:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:33:41 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav117.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:33:40 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:33:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:33:44 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 03:33:41.0089 (UTC) FILETIME=[87656D10:01C46565] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Alphonso's book clothing X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i693ZiRM022459 Status: RO Actually, it's the woman in the subdued yellow dress that is the "Easterner" here. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_Bookchess57V.jpg She is a Muslin lady - other images in the book show Muslim concubines in very sheer outfits. Those wild hats are seen in other artworks and seem to be quite real. Janet If I remember right, some of the images in the Book of Chess specifically identify the individuals as being Eastern (or is it Arab?). It may be that the clothing is distinctly "foreign" for those people. Some of the headdresses look pretty exotic, that's for sure. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 23:50:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i693ofRM022509 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:50:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693lbd5015401 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:47:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693lW4g039164; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:47:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav81.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693lV4g039092 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:47:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 20:47:25 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav81.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 03:47:24 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "h-costume_indra_com" Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:47:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:47:28 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 03:47:25.0320 (UTC) FILETIME=[72AD1880:01C46567] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Spanish costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i693ofRM022509 Status: RO Just being Spanish is reason enough to expect all kinds of weirdness in the Middle Ages. This lady has a pretty good web site: http://jessamynscloset.com/ . There is a picture of a parti-colored gothic fitted dress where one half is plaid - on the diagonal! Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 8 23:57:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i693vaRM022524 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:57:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693tmd5015982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:55:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693tl4g043531; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:55:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i693tj4g043500 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:55:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m231.in-tch.com [216.166.191.231]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i693V9621016 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:31:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40EE1800.9030804@in-tch.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:58:56 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? References: <200407081703.i68H3GRB030284@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407081703.i68H3GRB030284@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If it's the one I'm thinking of (the ones that have pictures of both Christians and Muslims), I've always figured that was lacing of some sort, perhaps for the surcoat/overgown.... --sue, who *will* get around to making one with a friend one of these days (one of us will do the christian one, and the other, the muslim) Susan Farmer wrote: > Could it be the images from Alphonso's book of Chess in which the women appear > to be wearing some sort of corset under some sort of sideless surcoat? > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 00:05:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6945GRM022552 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:05:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6944hd5016527 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:04:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6944f4g048199; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:04:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6944a4g048171 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:04:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m231.in-tch.com [216.166.191.231]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i693e2624301 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:40:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40EE1A3F.6050302@in-tch.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 22:08:31 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris bashing References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yuppers. I have a lingering fondness for Winter & Savoy, perhaps because it was the first costuming book I actually owned, although not the first I encountered (that would be the books by Iris Brooks <>). Don't care to ever use Norris, though... --sue, feeling contrary ;o) Sarah Lorraine wrote: > I wasn't Norris-bashing in my original post that you quoted below, just > to be clear. It's ironic in some ways because I find books like Winter > & Savoy's Elizabethan Costume 1555-1585 to be absolutely unuseable, > whereas Norris' Tudor Costume & Fashion ranks highly on my list of good > basic books to have in your 16th century costume library. It's > completely based off of my own prejudices, of course. I know plenty of > people who would disagree with me and say I've got it backwards. ;) > > Sarah > http://www.modehistorique.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 00:35:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i694ZPRM022652 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:35:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694Ykd5018038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:34:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694Ye4g063046; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:34:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f35.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694Yc4g062981 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:34:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:34:32 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:34:32 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Norris sources Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:34:32 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 04:34:32.0557 (UTC) FILETIME=[07D739D0:01C4656E] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Norris is a interesting source if you can get past the thirties style drawings. Most of his info can be verified. Wilhelmina >From: Appin1@aol.com >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: [h-cost] Norris sources >Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:22 EDT > >Robin, >I suspect that Norris got a lot of his information from Viollet-le-Duc. >Have >you checked out that source? > >Kathleen >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ MSN Life Events gives you the tips and tools to handle the turning points in your life. http://lifeevents.msn.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 00:41:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i694fsRM022664 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:41:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694fNd5018481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:41:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694fN4g066618; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:41:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f2.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694fK4g066554 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:41:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:41:14 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:41:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:41:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 04:41:14.0696 (UTC) FILETIME=[F788C480:01C4656E] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > >Have you ever thoaght the same, dressing up your hero / heroin from a >novel? > Sometimes I go so far as drawing pictures. It one of the reason I know so much about Regency fashion even thou I have never made one. My problems is the picture on the cover usually does not look like what the author describes. Wilhelmina _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 00:47:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i694lSRM022708 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:47:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694iTd5018958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:44:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694iS4g068221; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:44:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694iP4g068187 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:44:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15226 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:48:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:48:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, JAMES OGILVIE wrote: > Just being Spanish is reason enough to expect all kinds of weirdness > in the Middle Ages. Tee hee. I have a rule of thumb: If a source looks weird, it must be Spanish, German, or Italian. What that really means for me is a reflection of my own specialty: I happen to focus on Western Europe, particularly the France/Flanders/England nexus, in mostly the 14th-15th c. The farther I move out from that base, in time or place, the more things deviate from what I have come to recognize as the "norm" in my own area of focus. I don't consider myself very knowledgeable in the areas outside my focus, but I know enough about them to recognize them. There are distinct types of "looks" I associate with each type of deviation, so I can usually distinguish the elements of "Spanish" weirdness from the "Italian" weirdness and the "Germanic" weirdness. :-) And the Spanish are the weirdest of the weird! Viewed from another angle I suppose someone who focuses on Italy or Spain or Germany would think Franco-Flemish dress is "weird." Hmm, well, maybe not, considering some of the truly wild variations I've seen in those other places. Maybe they'd just call Franco-Flemish dress "dull." ;-) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 00:53:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i694rpRM022741 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:53:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694q9d5019325 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:52:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694q64g071927; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:52:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694q24g071895 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:52:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15278 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:55:52 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:55:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Norris sources In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, teawithablackdragon * wrote: > Norris is a interesting source if you can get past the thirties style > drawings. Most of his info can be verified. Perhaps that is the case with his later books? I've only spent time with his medieval chapters, and I'd say that large amounts of his material there -- particularly the colorful tidbits and details -- can't be verified, at least not with primary sources. Much of it very likely can be found in other secondary sources, but that doesn't mean it's accurate. But it's also traditionally been harder to get sound material on medieval clothing compared to later periods, even Elizabethan, because of the availability (or scarcity) of source material -- something even more of an issue in Norris's time. He was certainly working with what he had. But he had an unfortunate tendency to embellish his source material without any indication of what parts came from an original source, what came from another secondary source, and what was his own addition (such as the center back opening on Norlund's Greenland gown diagram). --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 00:57:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i694vCRM022755 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:57:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694s7d5019403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:54:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694s74g072864; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:54:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f17.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i694qq4g072267 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:52:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 21:52:47 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:52:46 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 04:52:46 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 04:52:47.0104 (UTC) FILETIME=[943DD800:01C46570] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Comic Con is in late July. The link will not open (11:58 cst time) Wilhelmina _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 01:03:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6953cRM022780 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:03:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6951rd5019769 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:01:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6951q4g076952; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:01:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f41.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.41]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6951p4g076910 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:01:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:01:46 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:01:45 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Alphonso's book clothing Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 05:01:45 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 05:01:46.0041 (UTC) FILETIME=[D5791A90:01C46571] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Before the late 15the c the area appears to have been quite cosmopolitan with several religions... Judaism, Muslim, several forms of Christianity. This area of Spain was part of an active trade route. Clothing in this area strikes me as taking more characteristics of the Mediterranean up until the time the aristocrats start marring into North European Royalty with the state religion follows the same transition. Wilhelmina >From: "JAMES OGILVIE" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: "Historical Costume" >Subject: [h-cost] Re: Alphonso's book clothing >Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:33:44 -0400 > >Actually, it's the woman in the subdued yellow dress that is the >"Easterner" here. > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_Bookchess57V.jpg > >She is a Muslin lady - other images in the book show Muslim concubines in >very sheer outfits. Those wild hats are seen in other artworks and seem to >be quite real. > >Janet > > If I remember >right, some of the images in the Book of Chess specifically identify the >individuals as being Eastern (or is it Arab?). It may be that the clothing >is distinctly "foreign" for those people. Some of the headdresses look >pretty exotic, that's for sure. > >--Robin > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 01:10:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i695AnRM022791 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:10:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6957sd5020037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:07:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6957l4g079942; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:07:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.188]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6957i4g079917 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:07:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sarah@modehistorique.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?69.105.203.61?) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@69.105.203.61 with plain) by smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jul 2004 05:07:44 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sarah lorraine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris sources Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:07:43 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Jul 8, 2004, at 9:55 PM, Robin Netherton wrote: > > On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, teawithablackdragon * wrote: > >> Norris is a interesting source if you can get past the thirties style >> drawings. Most of his info can be verified. > > Perhaps that is the case with his later books? I've only spent time > with > his medieval chapters, and I'd say that large amounts of his material > there -- particularly the colorful tidbits and details -- can't be > verified, at least not with primary sources. Much of it very likely > can be > found in other secondary sources, but that doesn't mean it's accurate. Specifically speaking about the Tudor book, it takes some digging but it is possible to ferret out primary source material for quite a bit of his clothing-related chapters. There's been one or two times I've accidentally stumbled across a portrait that happens to be the basis for something he drew. One source in particular always gave me fits, though. It's page 275 in my edition, Fig. 305, "Diane de Poitiers, 1531". He describes her bodice as being "an under bodice with sleeves attached to it: an outer bodice covers it as far as the breast line." For years this nagged at me... I wanted to know where he got the primary source for this picture and whether he was smoking crack when he looked at it, since there was absolutely nothing in my experience that could account for what he was describing and had drawn. Then last year I was given a CD a friend had compiled of thousands of 16th c. portraits for costume study and surprisingly, there was the original portrait that Norris had described! And to my complete astonishment, it looked *exactly* like he had interpreted it to look. I still have yet to see a similar style on any other woman from that era and region, but what I had taken to be a complete Norris-fantasy actually was as close to the truth as I myself might have told it, had I been writing this book. It was a pleasant surprise, to say the least. Since then I've been a bit more forgiving with Norris' work, and as primary source material becomes easier and easier to access, I'm pretty confident that there will be other such surprises to be had. :) Sarah http://www.modehistorique.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 03:19:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i697JhRM013692 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 03:19:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i697Hnd5025125 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:17:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i697Hi4g043471; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:17:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i697Hg4g043425 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:17:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004070907173601500hsvbbe>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:17:37 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:17:38 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ok first noting Medieval is too early for my area of focus, a couple of comments. 1) in reply to Robin, I believe the 16th century undergarment is called a "pair of bodies" (frequently shortened on this list to PoB). But most of us that are re-enactors or something similar refer to them by the more modern term of corset. I learned the term Pair of bodies here actually. 2) to add into Robin's comment regarding the root word of corset. In modern terms a "cors-et" using Robin's knowledge would be "cors" meaning "body" and -et a suffix that I've always taken to generically indicates a smaller version, I don't have my dictionary here so please don't crucify me, by logic would indicate corset is by rough meaning "small body". Works well with the modern garment 3) The images that Jerusha provided, showed what I have seen as hip length fitted vest or a strip of material that is wound tightly around the torso of the body over the gown. I've seen reference to call this garment a corsage, a corselet. I can see this easily being assumed to be a typical "spelling" from the 13th century and "corrected" to a modern set spelling. For those who may not have been forced to read Chaucer in the old English the spelling is by modern standards atrocious and horribly inconsistent. For those that have seen the literary reference you'll know what I mean. Interesting topic, I can't believe I used info from a English Lit class to add to it. Molly ~There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. I think I tripped over it a few years back -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:11 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? Coming in late on this, but to fill out some points other people have already made: Kay Staniland had an article on "The Medieval 'Corset'" in Costume, volume 3 (1969, I think). I read it years ago in a library, but it's been out of print for a long time and not one of the ones I have in my own collection, so I can't give you details. To my recollection, she discusses the roots of the corset myth, primarily focusing on that one Winchester Bible picture of the demon with lines on his torso that probably were lacing but were assumed by some historians to show a boned corset. The "stiffened with wood or metal" claim that Norris makes is, I believe, based only on creative interpretation of some of the rather abstract lines in this image. Norris tended to state such things as fact, even when they're only his best guess. Or it may have been a hypothesis of another author; Norris also tended to restate other people's best guesses, often in a more definitive or elaborated manner, without citing his sources. The word "corset" does appear in 14th c. documents; in "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince," Stella Mary Newton spends some time exploring its possible meanings. Mari has already offered some good information on what we do know about this garment based on these written references. As she says, it's clear that it's an outergarment of substantial size/length. For all I know it might be a generic term for the outer-layer long garment sometimes seen in 14th c. art (which would be consistent with the references that indicate that it might be "mi-parti" or "buttoned" or "ronde" or whatever). I've heard this garment called a "goun" ("gown") in period documents, but there's no reason that they would not have had more than one word, perhaps with some nuance of, say, class or season, or perhaps varying between French and English. Today writers tend to use "robe" in the modern sense when referring to these gowns, but in the period, "robe" meant a full outfit (based on references to a "robe of three garments" or a "robe of five garments" or whatever). "Corset" has its root in the word "cors," for "body," BTW. No doubt the presence of the word "corset" in medieval inventories led some 18th or 19th c. costume historians to assume it meant the same thing as the "corset" of their own time. However, I believe even Elizabethan body shapers were not called corsets in the 16th c. (someone please correct me on this if I am wrong), which would suggest that this definition was way post-medieval. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 03:21:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i697LgRM014746 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 03:21:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i697KTd5025199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:20:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i697KS4g044716; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:20:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i697KP4g044684 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 01:20:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-68-164-169-228.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.169.228] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BipgF-00006V-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:20:23 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000b01c46260$272539b0$1d01bc3f@susyhp> References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com><008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp><003b01c461f1$e5d487e0$4811bc3f@susyhp> <000b01c46260$272539b0$1d01bc3f@susyhp> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:16:46 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i697KP4g044684 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here's Part 2, covering La Tene material. This isn't as polished up as I'd like, and I expect to do some more work on both parts at some time in the future, but if I don't post it now, it's likely to fall into the Black Hole of "projects that just need a teensy bit of editing" that never end up getting done. Heather ================================== A BRIEF SURVEY OF SOME SOURCES FOR THE CLOTHING OF LA TENE CELTS In the last installment, I looked at the extant textiles and other evidence for clothing in the Hallstadt Celtic culture. This bit moves forward and looks at the La Tene era. This tends to be the era/culture that supplies the majority of our ideas and images of "ancient Celts". For Hallstadt, we have a handful of very fragmentary textiles, an extremely small number of artistic representations, the evidence of metallic garment fasteners/accessories in gravesites, and an extremely small number of preserved whole objects from the salt mines. For La Tene culture, the types of evidence widen significantly. In addition to the above types, we have artistic represntations of the Celts by other cultures (especially the Romans) as well as a greater number of human representations by the Celts themselves, written descriptions by Greek and Roman authors, and at least extrapolative evidence of whole garments from contemporary cultures elsewhere in Europe. I'm not even going to pretend to cover even a significant minority of the artistic sources here, much less the "accessory" archaeology. Consider this more in the line of a brief outline sketch that suggests the general shape of the topic. I also want to emphasize the lack of homogeneity across Celtic Europe during this period. As an example of the potential regionality of styles (and an example of an in-depth study of one regional style -- although one slightly out of the focal area of this article), a very interesting publication is: Garbsch, Jochen. 1965. Die Norisch-Pannonische Frauentracht im 1. Und 2. Jahrhundert. Munchner Beitrage zur Vor- und Fruhgeschichte, vol. 5. This book examines a clearly distinctive women's dress style found on grave memorials in Noricum and Pannonia (roughly the eastern end of the Alps through western Hungary). Doubtless there were other distinct and identifiable local styles. This cautions against blythely taking a brooch from here, a necklace from there, a belt from elsewhere, and the dress off a Romanized divinity, and assuming that we're produced a historically accurate generic "Celtic" look. The richest centers of La Tene archaeology are not significantly different from the focal areas of Hallstadt culture (not surprisingly, since there's plenty of other evidence that the one is an evolution of the other) with the addition of a major center slightly more to the northwest in the Marne/Mosel and Paris regions. And, like Hallstadt, the sphere of cultural influence was much broader than that, showing up from the Carpathians in the east, to Iberia in the west, to the British Isles in the north, bordered on the south by cultures of the Mediterranean rim (including most of Italy) and on the north to northeast by the lower lying parts of modern Germany, Poland, and so forth. To keep a manageable focus for the current article, I'm going to stick roughly to the swath from Gaul to Bohemia. In particular, I'm going to leave the question of connections with the Celtic cultures of the British Isles for another day. The timespan typically given the La Tene label rounds from the mid 5th to mid 1st centuries BCE, for all practical purposes ending with Roman political and social domination. I'm likely to give the benefit of the doubt for coverage up through the 1st century CE, simply because the benefits of some material covered under that span outweigh whatever changes there may have been in the latter part due to Roman assimilation. As general background reading, I'll once again recommend general surveys and catalogs that can include items like: Audouze, Francoise & Olivier Buchsenschutz. 1992. Towns, Villages, and Countryside of Celtic Europe. Indiana University Press, Bloomington & Indianapolis. ISBN 0-253-31082-2 Although this is primarily about structural archaeology, it includes a number of useful time-lines and maps, as well as general background on the types of artifacts that archaeologists may deal with. Haywood, John. 2001. Atlas of the Celtic World. Thames & Hudson, London. ISBN 0-500 05109-7 Extremely useful for getting a grounding in all the time and space issues. Rankin, David. 1987. Celts and the Classical World. Routledge, New York. ISBN 0-415 15090-6 Much more on La Tene than Hallstadt, since it primarily covers descriptions of the Celts by classical authors. See more below under the literary sources section. Kruta, V. et al. 1991. Celts. Rizzoli, New York. ISBN 0-8478-1407-6 Thick glossy book put together for a museum exhibition in Venice. (This is much more extensive than your typical "museum catalog" publication -- 700 pages and multiple color photos on most of them.) The majority of the coverage is La Tene, but it also gives a detailed survey of the Hallstadt-era sites and major finds. Birkhan, Helmut. 1999. Celts: Images of their culture. Verlag der Osterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Vienna. ISBN 3-7001-2814-2 Another thick, glossy book with many color plates. Similar but thinner coverage to Kruta et al. An unfortunate fondness for using modern "historic paintings" of Celtic subjects, and relatively non-rigorous artistic reconstructions, of which one should be extremely skeptical. Less text than Kruta et al. -- this book was intended to accompany a separate text volume ("Kelten: Versuch einer Gesamtdarstellung ihrer Kulture / Celts: a general survey of their culture", Vienna 1997). Cunliffe, Barry. 1986. Celtic World. Greenwich House, New York. ISBN 0-517-61533-9 A relatively shallow "coffee table" book, but with a fair number of pictures. Koch, John T. ed. 1995. Celtic Heroic Age. Celtic Studies Publicatio, Malden. ISBN 0 9642446-1-6 A nice collection of original sources (in translation) that illustrate various topics of interest. LITERARY SOURCES In general I've used published translations here, although I've added discussions of the vocabular when I believe the translator's choice of words may be misleading to costumers. My Latin is much stronger than my Greek -- in particular, I struggled a lot in attempting to identify the vocabular in Diodorus Siculus that corresponded to particular parts of the translation. (Part of this seems to be simply because the Greek text doesn't correspond well grammatically to any idiomatic English translation.) One thing you may notice is that when Classical authors described the characteristic clothing of foreigners, they were primarily interested in _male_ foreigners. Pliny "Natural History" (late/mid 1st c. CE), Book XXII paragraph 2 -- "Now I notice that some foreign peoples use certain plants on their persons both to make themselves more handsome and also to keep up traditional custom. At any rate among barbarian tribes the women stain the face, using some one plant and some another; and the men too among the Daci and the Sarmatae tattoo their own bodies [corpora sua inscribunt]. In Gaul there is a plant like the plantain, called glastum; with it the wives of the Britons, and their daughter-in-law, stain all the body, and at certain religious ceremonies march along naked, with a colour resembling that of Ethiopians." I'm fond of Pliny's discussion of woad (glastum) usage because it's so different from the typical image of Celtic woad use. It's women, not warriors, using it, and as emphasized by the reference to looking like Ethiopians, they appear to have been going for an all-over color, not decorative designs. Polybius "History" (2nd c. BCE) 2.28.3-10 -- [Among the Celtic army] "The Insubres and Boii were clothed in pants and light cloaks, but the Gaesatae from conceit and daring threw their clothing off, and went out to the front of the army naked, having nothing but their weapons." [Koch 1995] The tribes mentioned here were in Cis-alpine Gaul, i.e., in the north of modern Italy on the southern side of the Alps. ibid 21.38.1-6 -- a woman is described as carrying off the head of an enemy "wrapped in the folds of her dress". Unfortunately, this doesn't help us much other than ruling out a relatively tight fitting garment -- which we could do on other grounds. Diodorus Siculus (mid 1st c. BCE) 5.27.28 -- "The Gauls are very tall with white skin and blond hair, not only blond by nature but more so by the artificial means they use to lighten their hair. For they continually wash their hair in a lime solution, combing it back from the forehead to the back of the neck. ... Some shave their beards while others allow a short growth, but nobles shave their cheeks and allow the mustache to grow until it covers the mouth. The result is a sort of strainer when they drink." 5.27.29 "Some of [the Gauls] think so little of death that they fight wearing only a loincloth [the Loeb translation has "girdle", but the Greek "periezosmenous" means something more like "girded about" rather than being a garment name], without armor of any kind." 5.27.30 "The Gauls wear stunning clothing -- shirts which have been dyed in various colours, and trousers which they call 'bracae'. They also wear striped cloaks with a checkered pattern, thick in winter and thin in summer, fastened with a clasp." [Koch 1995] The Loeb translation of this last passage, with key Greek vocabular inserted, is, "The clothing they wear is striking -- shirts [xhitosi] which have been dyed [baptois] and embroidered in varied colours [chromasi pantodapois dienthismenois - lit. "of various different colors", there is no word indicating "embroidery" specifically], and breeches [anazurisin], which they call in their tongue 'bracae'; and they wear striped coats [sagous rhabdotous], fastened by a buckle on the shoulder [epiporpountai], heavy for winter wear and light for summer, in which are set checks, close together [plinthiois puknois -- lit. "close-set bricks"] and of varied hues [poluanthesi dieilemmenous - lit. "of many distinct flowers"???]." Further: "And some of them gather up their shirts [chitonas] with belts plated with gold or silver." Diodorus seems to be discussion the inhabitants of Gaul proper, although since he fails to mention Germans anywhere in his otherwise exhaustive catalog of peoples, he may be covering Germania in this category as well. Comparing the translations here will add some necessary caution (and I'll add even greater caution about my rough stabs and the Greek!). The garments of the nearly-naked warriors might, I suppose, be some sort of loincloth covering the genitals, but there are artistic representations that appear to show warrios wearing only some sort of belt, and entirely naked below that. The Greek words translated as "shirts" probably indicate nothing mores specific than "loose-fitting body garment". As near as I can tell, the word translated in one place as "coats" and in the other as "cloaks" simply means "a covering", and in the light of artistic evidence should probably be understood as an unshaped cloak. There is a general tendency to light upon the description of them as "striped" and "with close-set squares" (the word literally means "bricks", so I suppose "checks" isn't too misleading) as refering to some type of plaid pattern. I'm willing to go along with this opinion as highly plausible, especially given that we do have archaeological textiles from the period showing at least two-color check patterns of various types, although nothing at all as elaborate as modern Scottish tartans. Strabo "Geography" (early 1st c. CE) 4.4.3 -- "[The Belgae] wear 'sagi', let their hair grow long, and wear tight [but Ross quoting Tierney has "baggy"] trousers, and instead of normal tunics wear slit ones that have sleeves and extend as far down as the private parts and buttocks. The wool from which they weave the thick 'sagi' (which they call 'lainai') is coarse and shaggy, but the Romans, even in the northernmost regions, raise flocks of sheep, clothed in skins, with quite fine wool." 4.4.5 [concerning the Gauls] "Besides simplicity and spiritedness, there is also much senselessness, boastfulness, and love of ornament about them; for not only do they go about wearing gold -- in the form of necklaces around their throats, and armlets and bracelets around their arms and wrists -- but also those having an honourable rank wear garments that are brightly coloured and shot with gold." [Koch 1995] The Belgae lived -- mirabile dictu -- in what is now Belgium (with some slopping over into south-east Britain). It's interesting here to notice the author's explicit contrast of "normal tunics" with "tunics with sleeves that extend to the private parts and buttocks" (presumably shorter than expected, rather than longer). I haven't yet tracked down the original language, so I can't weigh in on Koch's "tight trousers" versus Tierney's "baggy trousers" except to note that my reflex is to trust Koch. As traces of gold brocading (most likely of tablet-woven bands) have been found in archaeological sites, we can presumably take that part of the description as accurate. ART BY CELTS Western Region (Gaul proper) Bronze statue of a warrior from Saint-Maur-en Chausée, 1st c. BCE -- The man wears what appears to be an unshaped sleeveless tunic reaching to mid thigh, over which he wears a short breastplate and a wide belt. The details are not well enough defined to say anything about lower body garments. He has a large torque around his neck, with hair trimmed at medium length, moustaches, but possibly no beard. [Haywood 2001] Bronze statue of a priest(?) from Neuvy-en-Sullias, 1st c. BCE (classical in style, so possibly non-native) -- He wears a very loose, unbelted tunic with medium length sleeves. The hem falls around his knees and has markings indicating some sort of decorative band. The neck opening is relatively small, but the specific shape isn't visible. He has short curly hair and non facial hair. [Haywood 2001] Bronze statue of a musician(?) from Neuvy-en-Sullias, (date?) -- The man wears a close-fitting, long-sleeved tunic reaching to the upper thigh. A belt sits low on his hips. Both the tunic and the man's legs are marked with a large-scale network of lines forming lozenges. The first temptation may be to interpret this as representing some sort of bias-cut check pattern, but this is badly in conflict with what we know of clothing cuts of the time. A more plausible interpretation would be that it's a very stylized and schematic attempt to render a lozenge twill - for which we have ample evidence. The presence of the pattern on the legs suggests close-fitting trousers. The photo in Ross is rather bad, so details like the feet are not very visible. [Ross] Wooden statues, 1st c. BCE, Saint-Germain-Source-Seine -- The statues are extremely worn and the only decipherable details are that one is wearing a floor-length hooded cloak, while the other is sering a half-length hooded cloak and the legs are showing (so there's no floor-length garment under it). [Kruta et al.] Epona statue from Luxembourg, date??? -- She wears a loose, full-length garment that appears either to have short sleeves or is simply a rectangle sewn together at the shoulders (which will produce a short sleeve-like effect). There appears to be a belt, but no other details are discernable. [Birkhan] Bronze statue of a female divinity wearing a helmet, from Kerguilly-en-Dineault, date??? -- She wears a peplos-style garment (the photo ends just below the waist, but presumably it's full length), pinned at the shoulders with fibulae and tied at the waist with a cord-like belt. [Birkhan] Statue of a Gaul from near Auxerre, date??? -- Although the statue is rather worn, he appears to be wearing a relatively short tunic-like garment (sleeve length unclear as the arms are broken off) with a hood that has been lowered to sit in fold around his neck. Central Region (roughly southern Germany) Bronze statue, possibly of a plowman, from Trier (date?) -- We see the lower part of a loose tunic ending at mid thigh, over which he wears a short hooded cloak falling roughly to his waist. There is no real shaping between the hood and the cloak -- it appears to be made by folding something like a half circle in half, sewing a short distance together at the point (forming a peak), then leaving a space unsewn for a face opening, then the remainder of the edges fastened together. There are markings around his legs that suggest to me rectangular leg wrappings going from knee to ankle which are fastened by bands at the top and bottom. He appears to be wearing shoes, but the details aren't clear. No details of possible sleeves, a belt, or of the neck opening are visible. [Haywood 2001] A stone altar to the Matronae in Cologne, (date?) -- Since these are divine figures, we need to be cautious about extrapolating to ordinary dress. They were at least two layers of garments. The under layer shows as a floor-length hem falling in folds and as a high-necked garment showing at the breast (looks like the head opening is a horizontal slit). Over this, they wear a loose garment that appears to be formed by a folded rectangle, floor length and from wrist to wrist, opened straight down the front, apparently sewn together on the sides below a rather generous wrist opening, and clasped together in the front just below the breasts with a large brooch. Two of the Matronae wear a large globular headdress resembling a fairly extreme Afro in shape (although presumably it's a garment rather than a hair style). The third, who is also smaller (younger?) has a bare head. In the background, three torsos can be seen (possibly of the family setting up the altar?) but few details of their garments are apparent. [Haywood 2001] Epona relief from Dalheim, date??? -- She wears a full-length garment with short loose sleeves that is belted at the waist. [Birkhan] Female divinity in relief, from Trier, date??? -- This is very classical in style and may belong in the next category, but the figure is a native goddess. She wears a long (the bottom of the carving is missing) loose garment that either has short sleeves but more probably is formed by a rectangle, seamed over the shoulders. Her arms are bare from the elbow down. The neck opening is small and round. It's unclear if there is a belt -- the drapery suggests one, but there's nothing overt. She has a narrow shawl-like item draped loosely around her and hung over one arm. [Birkhan] Relief carving of male and female deities, Sarrebourg, date??? -- She wears a peplos-style garment, either pinned in more than one place on the shoulders or perhaps sewn together there. The neck opening is a wide horizontal slit. It's belted just under her breasts. She has a narrow shawl-like wrap draped loosely around her. He wears a loose sleeved tunic, around knee length, belted at the waist and with the fabric bloused over the belt. He has what is probably a rectangular cloak pinned on his right shoulder and thrown back over the left arm. He appears to be wearing shoes, but the details are unclear. [Birkhan] Relief carving of male divinity from Trier, date??? -- He wears an extremely short tunic (barely past the crotch) that either has very short sleeves or is formed from a rectangle sewn at the shoulders. The neck opening is a horizontal slit. It appears to be belted, from the drape, but the waist is hidden by other objects. [Birkhan] "Matrona" statues from Trever, date??? -- One wears a peplos-style, full length garment apparently pinned at several places over the shoulder and upper arms (although the fastenings aren't visible). It appears to be unbelted. The other wears a similar garment, but it is unfastened over one shoulder so that she can nurse an infant. She may be wearing a shawl-like garment over her head. [Birkhan] Eastern Region (e.g., Bohemia) Marble relief carving of the goddess Epona, 2nd c. BCE, Hungary -- Keeping in mind that this is a divine figure and may not represent normal clothing, she appears to be wearing a full-length peplos-style dress, fastened in several places over the shoulder and upper arm, belted just below the breasts. [Kruta et al.] Stone relief of three female deities, date???, Bohemia -- To the extent that details are visible, all three appear to be wearing similar clothing. There are two visible layers, an outer layer ending around mid thigh, but details of the upper part are worn away. It appears to be belted in some way. Under this, a full-length skirt emerges, falling in folds. One possible interpretation would be that this under skirt is slit at one side, as the folds of the skirt are visible over one leg and between the legs, but one leg is shown smooth, as if bare. [Birkhan] Region Uncertain Epona relief from Contern, date??? -- She wears a loose but not full floor-length garment. Details of the upper part are not visible, however she appears to have a narrow shawl-like object draped around her neck with the ends hanging down in front. [Birkhan] ART BY NON-CELTS Stone statue of warrior, 1st c. BCE, southern Gaul -- The figure is mostly hidden behind a shield. He appears to be wearing a rectangular cloak pinned on the right shoulder with a fibula. No tunic is visible under this (but "nude warrior" statues are relatively common) He has an armlet on his right upper arm. Draped over the shield is some sort of cloth (cloak?) with a fringe falling in clumps. [Kruta et al.] Ceramic plaque, date???, Magdalensberg -- A mounted warrior wears trousers of undertain length but at least knee length. He is naked above the waist. He wears a neck torque and has a beard. His hair is stiffened into standing peaks. [Birkhan] A rather romanticized statue of a Gaulish couple indulging in murder-suicide upon defeat, date???, copy of a Greek original -- The male figure wears only a draped cloak (which appears to be defying gravity). The female figure wears a peplos style dress, fastened on the shoulders with fibulae and belted just below the breasts with what appears to be a fabric belt. The lower part of this garment shows two layers, one ending just about the knee and the other apparently continuing to the floor. She has a fringed mantle draped over one shoulder, but it doesn't appear to be fastened in any way. [Birkhan] Relief sculpture of a school scene in a classical style from Neumagen, date??? -- A boy wears a loose, unbelted, sleeved tunic ending just below the knees. It has a horizontal slit for the neck opening. He wears ankle-high shoes laced across the top of the foot. The other three figures (two older boys and a bearded man) wear garments that appear to be a "bag tunic", i.e. a rectangular sleeveless tunic that is wide enough to go most of the way down the arms. They are unbelted and fall to the lower calf. Shoes as above. [Birkhan] There are also some pieces of art from outside the "core area" that are often presented as speaking to Celtic clothing styles. A good example is the Gundestrup cauldron. It was found in Denmark, but most likely imported, possibly from a Celtic region. So the question arises what culture the figures on it reflect. I've skipped including it for the moment, since I'm trying to develop a picture based on "solidly core-La Tene region" material. CLOTHING ARTIFACTS - CELTIC Rast-Eicher, Antoinette. 2001. "Roman Textiles in Switzerland" in The Roman Textile Industry and its Influence, ed. Penelope Walton Rogers, Lise Bender Jřrgensen and Antoinette Rast Eicher. Oxbow Books. Swiss grave, 1st c. BCE -- Woman's grave with two fibulae in shoulder position. Preserved against the back of the fibulae are fragments of 2/2 diamond twill wool and a tabby section that probably represents a selvedge. This suggests they fastened a peplos-style garment pinned through the selvedges, rather than one with an over-fold. The grave also contained anklets. Swiss grave, 1st c. CE -- Four fibulae: two in shoulder positions and two more centrally on the upper chest. The left shoulder pin preserves two woolen textiles: a fine tabby and coarser fabric that may have been spin-patterned. ACCESSORIES [generally from Kruta et al.] Lots of examples of fibulae (of the "safety pin" type), torques, armlets, anklets in bronze and gold. Glass "bangle" bracelets. Gold earrings. Glass and amber beads. Woman's bronze "chain" belt. An eastern site (3rd c. BCE Hungary) has two fibulae linked by a short chain; similar item from 3rd c. BCE Austria. Gold and bronze finger rings. SUMMARY AND COMPARATIVE ARCHAEOLOGY I've been holding out on discussing archaeological garments so far because for the most part they fall slightly outside either the region or the time-period I'm focusing on, and I wanted to start with what sort of picture the "core evidence" builds up on its own. So in this section, I'll look at the composite picture accumulated so far -- dividing the evidence up into three regions to see if any regional variation emerges -- and only then discussing surviving garments that might correspond. Western Region -- Gaul proper Men -- Both the literary descriptions and the artistic representations present similar pictures. Trousers (braccae) are full-length and relatively close-fitting. Two types of tunics appear: a relatively close-fitting style, with or without long sleeves, reaching to around mid-thigh, and a looser style with half-length sleeves, reaching to around the knees and worn unbelted. Tunics appears to have a horizontal slit for a neck opening and may have a decorative band at the hem, which archaeological evidence suggests could have been tablet-woven, sometimes with gold brocading. Belts tend to be relatively wide any may be ornamented with metal plaques -- they are worn at a natural waistline or slightly lower. There are three general styles of over garment. The type that seems to appear in the older contexts is simply a rectangular cloth worn as a cloak, pinned on the right shoulder with a fibula. It may have a fringe. Also seen is a hooded cloak that can be anywhere from waist length to hip length to full length. There appears to be very little shaping between the cloak proper and the hood -- in fact some of the garments appear to consist of something like a half circle with the straight edges sewn together except for a short face opening near the peak. In addition, there appears to be a tunic-like over garment (sometimes referred to in the modern literature as a "Gaulish coat") that is quite loose and worn unbelted. It has an attached hood and may either have short sleeves or may be wide enough to cover the arms even without sleeves. This item seems to show up mostly in relatively late contexts. Shoes are present in a number of contexts, but rarely depicted in much detail. When we do see detail, they are ankle-high and laced over the top of the foot. Most statuary provides no clue to the nature or color of the textiles, although one statue with a lozenge pattern may be trying to represent a lozenge twill. The classical authors repeatedly note the use of bright colors, multiple colors, and stripes or "close-set bricks" of color. Archaeological textiles support both striped and checked weaves, although I've seen no examples of multicolored "tartan" patterns in the modern sense. Women -- The only evidence discussed above comes from sculptures of goddesses. We see a loose gown, either pinned at the shoulders in a peplos style, or sometimes perhaps sewn at the shoulders (so that it forms the effect of short sleeves, but without having sleeves that actually project from the body of the garment. When a belt is visible, it is cord-like and sits at the waist. (The head-gear of goddesses is probably not to be relied on for everyday wear.) Middle Region -- southern Germany, northern Italy Men -- Close-fitting trousers are standard, but we also see a plowman wearing some sort of wrappings on the lower leg. Tunics come in a variety of styles: 1) an extremely short sleevesless tunic, probably belted (but the belt isn't visible -- only the effects). 2) a loose long-sleevesd tunic to knee length, bloused over a belt. 3) another loose thigh-length tunic where the upper details are hidden. As over garments, we see the same rectangular cloak pinned at the shoulder and hooded half-length cloak. Shoes are sometimes present, but not clearly depicted. Women -- Again, we're working primarily from depictions of divine figures. The most common style is a full-length loose unshaped gown that is either pinned at the shoulders peplos-style, or is sewn together at the shoulders leaving a horizontal slit for a neck opening. It may be belted at the natural waist or slightly higher just under the breasts. In some cases there is a long narrow shawl-like item draped around the body and over the arms. More rarely, we see a peplos-style garment that is pinned in several places from the shoulders down over the upper arms. (This appears to be from the influence of more Roman styles.) One group of "matronae" (mother goddess figures) wear a rather distinctive style with an under layer thay may be similar to the preceding, but an over garment that appears to be rectangular in shape, running from wrist to wrist with relatively small hand openings, full length, and open down the front with a pin fastening the edges together just under the breasts. (These figures also wear large globular headdresses, but as noted above, divine headgear seeems less likely than usual to correspond to everyday wear.) Archaeology supplies paired fibulae in shoulder position, with a possible selvedge remnant attached and a coarser, possible spin-pattened fabric over them. Other fibulae sit on the center chest and may fasten an over garment. Eastern Region -- roughly centered on Hungary I don't seem to have any male data from this region. Women -- Again, the data sources all appear to be divinities. One wears a Roman-style full length peplos dress pinned in several places from the shoulder over the upper arms and belted just below the breasts. The other two groups wear styles similar enough to each other to possibly constitue a "regional style". We see two layers, one full length, and another over it falling around the mid-thigh or knee. It isn't clear whether this represents a single peplos-style garment with a very long over-fold, or whether it represents two separate garments, whether a skirt and short peplos, or two complete garments. When the details of the upper portion are clear, the garment is fastened with two fibulae on the shoulders and there is no sign of sleeves. In one case, it isn't clear whether the under layer is slit up one side or whether this is an artistic depiction of the fabric lying smoothly over one leg. There can be a belt just below the breasts, and in one case it appears to be a relatively wide fabric belt. Ther emay be a fringed rectangular mantle. Archaeological Models Men There is an excellent model for the long, close-fitting trousers in the garments of this type found at Thorsbjerg and Damendorf (Schlabow, Hald). The cut is complex and bears little resemblence to later trouser-like garments. These finds tend to be dated loosely to the "Migration era", but dates in the 1st century CE have been suggested by some researchers. The leg-wraps seen on the plowman statue have a parallel in garments found at Sřgaards Mose (Denmark) that consist of rectangles with integral ties attached at top and bottom. (We know they were used as leg wraps because they were found wrapped and tied around leg bones.) There are available models for a wide variety of tunic styles. There's a large assortment of Roman-era material from Egypt, however this is a bit far removed geographically and very little of it is early enough to hit my 1st c. cut-off. Still it's a good model for possible constructions. In general the Egyptian tunics are woven in a single piece, even when sleeves are present. They come in a wide assortment of proportions and sleeves may or may not be present. But models closer in time and space come from German material (see Schlabow, and for some items also Hald). Examples from Obenaltendorf and Marx-Etzel represent the sleeveless style, although somewhat looser in fit than the La Tene portrayals. The close-fitting, long-sleeved style is best represented by the tunic from Thorsbjerg. It is put together from only slightly shaped rectangles and has separate sewn-on sleeves. In contrast, a tunic from Reepsholt is woven in a single piece, with half-length sleeves, and is much looser in fit. All of these tend to be around mid-thigh to knee-length. The "Gaulish coat" has no models close in time and space, however for a possible cut one could look at a style of hooded tunic from Egypt, primarily found as a child's garment. (The examples I've seen fall more in the 3-6th century.) It is constructed from a regular-style tunic with a horizontal-slit neck opening. The hood is a wide rectangle of fabric, folded in half and sewn across the top, then sewn to the neck opening all the way across the back and partially to the front of the opening at the edges where it is folded around. (This is better seen in diagrams.) For the style of the hooded cloaks, the best model I can find is also a bit far afield -- in this case the "Orkney hood", found in Scotland and dated variously to the 3rd century CE and points later. (Gabra-Sanders) It shares the feature of having no neck seam -- rather it is segment of a circle (not quite a half-circle), sewn together along the flat sides but leaving a face opening at the top. In this case, rather that the "center point" of the circle forming a peak, it is cut across and sewn to fit the top of the head more closely. Archaeological finds provide many examples of rectangular fabrics that were or could have been used as cloaks. (See numerous examples in Schlabow and Hald.) Some particularly fine examples have wide tablet-woven borders and colored check patterns in the weave. Women See above for rectangular fabrics that may be used as wraps. There is a tubular fabric (i.e., woven as a tube) from Huldremose dating to the 1st c. CE that was most likely worn as a peplos-style garment, pinned on the shoulders. This item is long enough that it would need to be worn with a flap turned down (or extremely bloused over a belt), however it is not long enough to achieve the "two layer" effect with the over-layer falling to the knees. Another unprovenenced tubular fabric (Hald) is of an appropriate length for a peplos-style garment with no over-fold. Another find at Huldremose, and a similar one ad Damendorf, also consist of tubular fabrics (either woven as a tube or sewn into one) but of skirt-length, and showing traces of a gathering cord along one selvedge. This spotlights the possibility that the "two layer" style might have involved a skirt and 3/4 length overgarment, rather than a peplos-style garment with an extremely long over-fold. BIBLIOGRAPHY (sources not given in full elsewhere) Gabra-Sanders, Thea. 2001. "The Orkney Hood, Re-dated and Re-considered" in The Roman Textile Industry and its Influence (Rogers, Penelope Walton, Lise Bender Jřrgensen & Antoiette Rast-Eicher eds.). Oxbow Books, Oxford. Hald, Margrethe. 1980. Ancient Danish Textiles from Bogs and Burials. Nat. Museum of Denmark, Copenhagen. ISBN 87-480-0312-3 Pliny "Natural History" -- the Loeb Classical Library edition Ross, Anne. 1970. Everyday Life of the Pagan Celts. Carousel Books. (I actually don't recommend this book, although Anne Ross is a good scholar. But the book conflates not simply the Hallstadt and La Tene eras, but early medieval Ireland as well. I simply don't think it's useful to treat that big a stretch as a coherent unit.) Schlabow, Karl. 1976. Textilfunde der Eisenzeit in Norddeutschland. Karl Wachholtz Verlag, Neumuenster. ISBN 3-529-01515-6 -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 04:03:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6983nRM016987 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 04:03:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6981wd5026682 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:01:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6981m4g063235; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:01:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6981h4g063063 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:01:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be50.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.80]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 311C55EE099 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:01:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001401c4658a$f87313c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:01:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] dyeing lace X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Thanks for all your informations, but teadyeing is not what i want to do. It gives a yellowish, orange shade. What i want is more like off white, greyish. It has to go with my grey taffeta. My silk organza is more greyish than ivorish, Sorry if i didnt make that clear. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 04:05:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6985FRM016996 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 04:05:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6984Rd5026813 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:04:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6984R4g064353; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:04:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6984N4g064334 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:04:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be50.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.80]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 25F5A262829 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:04:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001a01c4658b$5f27f450$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c4653a$33054b30$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Attention Bjarne...what happened to these pictures? Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:04:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The pictures of my wheelfarthingales, was taken off my web because i had to take new things up. I did not make any pictures of the underwear. Saragrace do you have Jean Hunnisets book of renaissance clothes. She has a pattern of a drum farthingale i used for the purple dress. Only i made it bigger. Jean Hunnisets pattern is good, but it is not very big. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 12:23 AM Subject: [h-cost] Attention Bjarne...what happened to these pictures? Hi Bjarne, what happened to the pictures of your final project from school? And also, do you by any chance have a picture of the underpinnings that go with this dress? What I am after is do you make the front in this gown farthingale flat, or is it completely round with the waist hole just shifted forward. http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/underpinnings_.htm Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 04:09:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6989MRM017008 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 04:09:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6986Fd5026895 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6986F4g065134; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:06:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6984n4g064522 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:04:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-83-96.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.83.96]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6984RXA014652 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 04:04:47 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040709003136.0236b460@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 00:45:30 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego In-Reply-To: <20040708213315.MQLM6778.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@smtp.west.cox .net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >I've not been to the fabric store in Tijuana, but Tijuana has gotten a major >face lift since you have probably been there, Carolyn, and may or not still >be there. I've been there recently enough that I know about all the changes on the map I got from AAA auto club Wednesday. That trip is when I reconfirmed the location of the fabric store I knew about there. The store is, or was, a block west of Avenida Revolucion on the street parallel to it. I'll check when I go in a couple of weeks, and give a name, an address, and a better review. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 08:17:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69CHfRM018444 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:17:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69CFDd5007694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:15:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69CEv4g079812; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:14:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69CEp4g079745 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:14:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be50.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.80]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F97B47FE3B for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:14:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002901c465ae$57c61250$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] sources Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:14:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Tiffany, You are quite right in this, but she ment the seperate wooden busk wich is placed in the center front. I know about the horizontal bonings, i have made many myself, but it is not that wich she ment. She ment the seperate wooden busk wich is tied in the corset center front and is vertical. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] sources > In a message dated 7/8/04 1:26:33 PM Central Daylight Time, > drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: > Yeat she had gotten the idea of the wooden busk very wrong. > She claimed that the busk was placed beneath the breasts horizontally and > that when you laced the corset in the back, the busk mooved up and pressed > the breasts up. > > > Actually, I've seen many references to cross bracing of wood, reeds or > whalebone being added horizontally at the front of a corset; usually in conjunction > with, not instead of, a vertical busk. Its intent was exactly that it pressed > things in the proper direction as the corset was laced. Perhaps she was just > a little confused as to how horizontal busks or boning was used, rather than > completely wrong. > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 08:33:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69CXnRM018497 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:33:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69CHXd5007789 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:17:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69CHU4g080996; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:17:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69CHR4g080984 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:17:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be50.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.80]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A38B47FE1D for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:17:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002f01c465ae$b6b3fb60$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c4653a$33054b30$6a01a8c0@SG01> <001a01c4658b$5f27f450$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Attention Bjarne...what happened to these pictures? Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:17:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And i have to add. My first drum shaped farthingales, were cut in flat cirkles in the top, and i cut out the piece for the waist, and made a slit in the back wich i laced together. I attached a skirt frill to the flat cirkle and i used a strong cane for the boning. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Attention Bjarne...what happened to these pictures? > The pictures of my wheelfarthingales, was taken off my web because i had to > take new things up. > I did not make any pictures of the underwear. > Saragrace do you have Jean Hunnisets book of renaissance clothes. > She has a pattern of a drum farthingale i used for the purple dress. Only i > made it bigger. Jean Hunnisets pattern is good, but it is not very big. > > Bjarne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 12:23 AM > Subject: [h-cost] Attention Bjarne...what happened to these pictures? > > > Hi Bjarne, what happened to the pictures of your final project from school? > And also, do you by any chance have a picture of the underpinnings that go > with this dress? What I am after is do you make the front in this gown > farthingale flat, or is it completely round with the waist hole just shifted > forward. > > > > > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/underpinnings_.htm > > > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 10:05:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69E5nRM007453 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:05:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69E40d5014408 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69E3v4g038111; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:03:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69E3s4g038082 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:03:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i69EYp5c039636 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:34:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i69EYpHI039635 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:34:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407091434.i69EYpHI039635@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > 3) The images that Jerusha provided, showed what I have seen as hip length > fitted vest or a strip of material that is wound tightly around the torso of > the body over the gown. I've seen reference to call this garment a corsage, > a corselet. I can see this easily being assumed to be a typical "spelling" > from the 13th century and "corrected" to a modern set spelling. For those > who may not have been forced to read Chaucer in the old English the spelling > is by modern standards atrocious and horribly inconsistent. For those that > have seen the literary reference you'll know what I mean. When I saw those images, the first thought that went through my brain was "here's where they got the idea for a separate bodice/corslet/corsage for the bliaut. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 10:16:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69EG2RM010735 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:16:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69EFQd5015441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:15:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69EFN4g045514; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:15:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69EFK4g045469 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:15:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.173] (pm5-173.eos.net [205.133.149.173]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69EF4q6026362 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:15:04 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:13:01 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407090720.i697Kg4h044839@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Just being Spanish is reason enough to expect all kinds of weirdness in the > Middle Ages. This lady has a pretty good web site: > http://jessamynscloset.com/ . There is a picture of a parti-colored gothic > fitted dress where one half is plaid - on the diagonal! Oh, I forgot all about this! I remember postings on it a year or so ago, and I decided that I must have one. Then life intervened... the guy on Jessamyn's page looks just like the picture, except for the coif (and crown). He would look SO much better with a coif. Why don't people realize the headcovering does make a difference? Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 10:35:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69EZkRM012415 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:35:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Dw1d5013914 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:58:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Dvv4g034263; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:57:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Dvn4g034148 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 07:57:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i69ESh5c039568 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:28:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i69ESfYV039567 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:28:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407091428.i69ESfYV039567@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris sources In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO *snip* > his clothing-related chapters. There's been one or two times I've > accidentally stumbled across a portrait that happens to be the basis > for something he drew. One source in particular always gave me fits, > though. It's page 275 in my edition, Fig. 305, "Diane de Poitiers, > 1531". He describes her bodice as being "an under bodice with sleeves > attached to it: an outer bodice covers it as far as the breast line." > For years this nagged at me... I wanted to know where he got the > primary source for this picture and whether he was smoking crack when > he looked at it, since there was absolutely nothing in my experience > that could account for what he was describing and had drawn. Then last > year I was given a CD a friend had compiled of thousands of 16th c. > portraits for costume study and surprisingly, there was the original > portrait that Norris had described! And to my complete astonishment, > it looked *exactly* like he had interpreted it to look. Oooh -- can you give more information on that painting or post it where we can see? (I have a passion for collecting images too!) Jerusha (with her own collection) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 10:50:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69EodRM014149 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:50:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Emld5018483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:48:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Emh4g067880; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:48:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Emf4g067852 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:48:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC8A1D253 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:48:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p006.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.216.8]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 29CEAD3F0 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:48:40 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:48:45 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] ] Re: plaid cotehardie & check X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- > Just being Spanish is reason enough to expect all kinds of weirdness in the > Middle Ages. This lady has a pretty good web site: > http://jessamynscloset.com/ . There is a picture of a parti-colored gothic > fitted dress where one half is plaid - on the diagonal! Oh, I forgot all about this! I remember postings on it a year or so ago, and I decided that I must have one. Then life intervened... the guy on Jessamyn's page looks just like the picture, except for the coif (and crown). He would look SO much better with a coif. Why don't people realize the headcovering does make a difference? Gail Finke ************** Interesting to compare to the Italian check. http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/martini/martin11.jpg With the diagonal plaid, I am wondering if garments made on the bias were region specific or more wide spread. Arian _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 11:00:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69F02RM018155 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:00:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Ew4d5019122 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:58:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Ew04g074571; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:58:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net (cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Evt4g074520 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:57:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.169.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.169]) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Biwoz-00030U-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 07:57:54 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:56:37 -0400 From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Oh, I forgot all about this! I remember postings on it a year or so ago, and > I decided that I must have one. Then life intervened... the guy on > Jessamyn's page looks just like the picture, except for the coif (and > crown). He would look SO much better with a coif. Why don't people realize > the headcovering does make a difference? Just to make you feel better, he does have a lovely coif. Can't remember why he diidn't have it on that day. He's really pretty rabid about authenticity. He taught himself medieval Catalan so that he could translate a cooking manuscript from one the museum in Barcelona. As for this garment, there was originally some concern how the plaid would hang/sag(?) over time. I am happy to say that all still looks well, even after 2 years and repeated wearings. I did a little bit stabilization, tacking it here and there to the lining. But it was very minimal, and, if it was going to sag or stretch, it still would have happened. I haven't attempted the female version yet. In regards to Alphonso's books (Cantigas, Book of Chess, Book of the Knight, Book of Games, etc.) virtually all of the clothing depicted was worn in the period. One possible exception is the "Chinese coolie hat" covered in peacock feathers worn by the Queen of Sheba....probably an attempt to make her look Eastern. However, I wouldn't rule it out completely. Spain has always had their own unique (weird) twist on fashion. Headwear: Muslims and Christians borrowed freely from each other when it came to headwear and fabrics. And there is no way you need any kind of corset. Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover when you finally see the garment in person. Too bad they won't dig up more royal graves around Europe... Grace/Jessamyn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 11:01:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69F1tRM018991 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:01:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69F1Ld5019354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:01:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69F1K4g076964; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:01:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fed1rmmtao09.cox.net (fed1rmmtao09.cox.net [68.230.241.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Exk4g075735 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:59:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mudsleidi@cox.net) Received: from smtp.west.cox.net ([172.18.180.53]) by fed1rmmtao09.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with SMTP id <20040709145939.WGSP6778.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:59:39 -0400 From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Places to visit in San Diego Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:59:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040709145939.WGSP6778.fed1rmmtao09.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks! Sounds like another good reason (pottery, glassware) to go shopping in Mexico! Cheers, Heidi >>>I've not been to the fabric store in Tijuana, but Tijuana has gotten a major >face lift since you have probably been there, Carolyn, and may or not still >be there. >>I've been there recently enough that I know about all the changes on the map I got from AAA auto club Wednesday. That trip is when I reconfirmed the location of the fabric store I knew about there. The store is, or was, a block west of Avenida Revolucion on the street parallel to it. I'll check when I go in a couple of weeks, and give a name, an address, and a better review. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ============================================================ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 11:29:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69FTkRM030713 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:29:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69FRvd5021809 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:27:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69FRm4g023565; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:27:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69FRi4g023477 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:27:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i69Fwe5c040390 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:58:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i69Fweo9040389 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:58:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407091558.i69Fweo9040389@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] ] Re: plaid cotehardie & check In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Just being Spanish is reason enough to expect all kinds of weirdness in > the > > Middle Ages. This lady has a pretty good web site: > > http://jessamynscloset.com/ . There is a picture of a parti-colored > gothic > > fitted dress where one half is plaid - on the diagonal! > > Oh, I forgot all about this! I remember postings on it a year or so ago, and > I decided that I must have one. Then life intervened... the guy on > Jessamyn's page looks just like the picture, except for the coif (and > crown). He would look SO much better with a coif. Why don't people realize > the headcovering does make a difference? > > Gail Finke > ************** > Interesting to compare to the Italian check. > http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/martini/martin11.jpg > With the diagonal plaid, I am wondering if garments made on the bias were > region specific or more wide spread. There's a couple of images that I've snarfed from one of the MSS in the Bodlien that also appear to show plaid fabric http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/bodleian264_127vDetail2.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/bodleian264_172vDetail.jpg Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 11:32:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69FWcRM030729 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:32:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69FUsd5022011 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:30:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69FUq4g026804; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:30:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69FTa4g025916 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:29:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i69G0X5c040429 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:00:33 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i69G0XLl040428 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:00:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407091600.i69G0XLl040428@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally > got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover > when you finally see the garment in person. Too bad they won't dig up more > royal graves around Europe... well .... You are going to tell us aren't you? Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 12:00:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69G0JRM030875 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:00:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Fuud5024150 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:56:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Fut4g047214; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:56:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav6.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Fuq4g047121 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:56:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:54:57 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.99 by bay1-dav6.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:54:56 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.99] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:54:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 15:54:57.0273 (UTC) FILETIME=[15448690:01C465CD] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Period Patterns for Sale X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i69G0JRM030875 Status: RO #41 Women's Italian Ren. Gowns (cut on largest size) #43 Men's Italian Ren. Garment's #46 Women's German Puff and Slash (cut on largest size) #92 Capes and Tabards http://snipurl.com/7mxy eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:02:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69H27RM012640 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:02:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69H06d5001117 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:00:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Gxw4g096632; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:00:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from whowhere.com (in02-fes1.whowhere.com [209.202.220.218]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i69GxZ4g096011 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:59:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@eudoramail.com) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by whowhere.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:59:16 -0000 To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:59:16 0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Priority: 3 Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] Early MedievalCorsets???? X-Sender-Ip: 130.88.96.65 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings, Yes, that is the style of garments I was referring to. There are extant examples of the the second and third layers of garments in the royal tombs. Myself and Susan Carroll-Clarke wrote (ages ago) an article about reconstructing this type of outfit and it was printed in an SCA publication called "Seams Like Old Times." The layer you are wondering about is basically a kirtle layer that was spiral-laced up one side across a surprisingly wide gap so that the smock could be clearly seen. Over that was worn a sideless surcoat - which is interesting because it appears in Spain nearly 100 years before the rest of Europe. Cheers, Danielle --------- Original Message --------- >> If you are discussing clothing like that seen here: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Costuming/andalus13c.html (particularly the image just above the men's clothing section) there are extant garments from Spanish royal tombs so we actually have a pretty good idea of how those work. The title of the book about the clothing includes the Monasterio de Santa María La Real de Las Huelgas (Burgos) in its title but I don't have it here and can't remember the correct title... >> > >I was speaking specifically of images like >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess16R.jpg >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess60R.jpg >and to a lesser extent >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_Bookchess57V.jpg >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess32R.jpg > >To my eyes, you can see 3 distinct layers in the first two images -- >a "chemise/underdress" the laced *thing* around her waist, and the >odd sideless surcoat. > >Jerusha (I like "lilinah"'s pages BTW ...) Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:06:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69H6MRM014907 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:06:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69H4Qd5001551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:04:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69H4P4g000443; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:04:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from whowhere.com (in02-fes1.whowhere.com [209.202.220.218]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i69H2c4g098809 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:02:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@eudoramail.com) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by whowhere.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:02:25 -0000 To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:02:25 0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Priority: 3 Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] Early MedievalCorsets???? X-Sender-Ip: 130.88.96.68 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, the type of headdress worn with this Spanish outfit is an odd one (the sideless surcoated figures are Spanish the others are supposed to be Moorish IIRC). The Spanish headdress reminds me a bit of the double crown of pharonic Egypt...which might be where they got the idea from...but with the Spanish one never knows... Cheers, Danielle (who finds Spanish clothing fascinating) From: Robin Netherton >On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > >> I was speaking specifically of images like >> http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess16R.jpg >> http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess60R.jpg >> and to a lesser extent >> http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_Bookchess57V.jpg >> http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/alfonso_BookChess32R.jpg > >The last one, with its single-side lacing, most closely resembles (in my >recollection) the Burgos finds. But I'd have to haul out the book to >remember the details -- I do my best to stay away from Spanish clothing. >(When I went to Spain, I looked almost exclusively at Flemish art!) > >Of some importance here is the identification on the images. If I remember >right, some of the images in the Book of Chess specifically identify the >individuals as being Eastern (or is it Arab?). It may be that the clothing >is distinctly "foreign" for those people. Some of the headdresses look >pretty exotic, that's for sure. > >--Robin > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:10:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69HATRM015874 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:10:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69H6ud5001819 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:06:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69H6t4g002314; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:06:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69H3s4h099891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:03:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-78.sonic.net [209.148.112.78]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i69H3ruu022092 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:03:53 -0700 Message-ID: <40EED126.1010605@lavoltapress.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:08:54 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT-Art Nouveau flatware X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Someone asked for recommendations for Art Nouveau flatware. So--if you want sterling--here is a useful web page: http://www.silversuperstore.com/sterling_silverware.html It gives the date each pattern was introduced, and there are many late Victorian and Edwardian styles. For example, check out the Gorham Lily pattern. (Note: A historical name for a flatware pattern has nothing to do with the actual date of design.) I do not know whether these patterns are really reproductions except for the decoration on the handles. As far as I can tell from an extremely limited survey based on trying to buy a set, flatware has been getting bigger and bigger. My husband and I bought a set of the Reed & Barton hammered flatware and are considering returning it because it is so huge. I'm almost afraid to put the dinner forks in my mouth. This site also sells stainless flatware, but so far none of it looks particularly historic to me. Fran _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:13:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69HDaRM016518 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:13:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HA2d5002172 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:10:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HA14g004760; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:10:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from whowhere.com (in02-fes1.whowhere.com [209.202.220.218]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i69H8N4g003435 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:08:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@eudoramail.com) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by whowhere.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:08:09 -0000 To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:08:09 0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Priority: 3 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume X-Sender-Ip: 130.88.96.65 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings, It is an interesting garment that periodically gets mentioned on this list. Ususally, people assume that the fabric was regular plaid cut on the bias. However, I have a picture in one of my manuscript facsimilie books (the Sanitas stuff comes to mind) of a weaver weaving that type of fabric so that the pattern runs on the diagonal. Very cool find I thought, except I can't tell you for sure since I am in england and my books are in Minnesota... Cheers, Danielle --------- Original Message --------- >Just being Spanish is reason enough to expect all kinds of weirdness in the Middle Ages. This lady has a pretty good web site: http://jessamynscloset.com/ . There is a picture of a parti-colored gothic fitted dress where one half is plaid - on the diagonal! > >Janet Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:25:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69HPZRM016744 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:25:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HMQd5003385 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:22:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HML4g014478; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:22:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HMF4g014365 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:22:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004070917221001400llb9be>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:22:10 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:21:11 -0400 From: Lauren Walker To: h-costume Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Next question: headrails X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Regarding head coverings -- of all the things one sees in pictures for which I wish there were directions, some of the veil/headrail wrappings are probably first on the list. To pick on Norris again, trying to follow any of his directions for head wrapping is just hilarious, but part of the charm of his illustrations is that they all look so movie-goddess graceful, even if you can tell they'd fall off the moment the woman moved. So anyway, I am still vacillating about whether my area of interest leads me to the late 10th, 11th, or 12th centuries -- it starts to narrow down to roughly the 50 years either side of the Norman Conquest and then I stumble upon something that sends me back into the late 900s -- but throughout that period, women of the middle and lower sorts were wearing big cloth things variously festooned around their heads and necks. I am wondering if anybody has either a good timeline of how heads were wrapped when, or a good set of directions for the various styles. I was enchanted at the SCA Hrim Schola this winter when Anne Liese (whose mundane name escapes me at the moment) demonstrated a headwrap I'd always assumed from the artworks was a framed and constructed thing that turned out to be one big honking piece of linen cleverly arranged. The way she shook it off and wrapped it up again gave me a vision of how a woman of such a time would probably have just bundled her head up, matter of factly, in the style she was used to. Sort of the way an Indian woman can just wrap a sari. This has caused me to lose faith in the rather more fussy barbet and fillet and lots o' pins style I have been wearing on my head, and to doubt that the character in my story would have done anything so fussy. I just think if you wore it every day it would have to hold better in a strong wind than my arrangement! One of my tests for costume is to wear it around and see if it falls off, in which case I still haven't got it right. And so far all my veilings do. So: Since I'm mostly interested in early medieval English, there's a headrail arrangement that I'd really like to figure out. It seems to result in the short end hanging down about chin-length next to the face and the long end remaining long enough to wrap around the neck and throw over the shoulder or tuck into the gown, a sort of pseudo-wimple. The head part appears to be a trick of wrapping, so that one tighter wrap at some point holds the looser folds in place, but I can't get the hang of how it works. Has anybody any clues for this? I would appreciate them. Thanks! Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:27:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69HRvRM016956 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:27:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HPud5003786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:25:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HPt4g017296; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:25:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav114.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.144]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HNb4g015412 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:23:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:23:32 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav114.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:23:31 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:23:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:23:36 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 17:23:32.0189 (UTC) FILETIME=[753458D0:01C465D9] X-DCC-sgs_public_dcc_server-Metrics: net.indra.com 1199; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i69HRvRM016956 Status: RO Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover when you finally see the garment in person. Does this mean you brought back lots of good photos of art that you will soon be posting on your web site (hint, hint)? It is so hard to find Spanish medieval and renaissance art either in books or, even worse, on the internet. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:33:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69HXnRM018948 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:33:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HWhd5004527 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:32:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HWd4g022705; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:32:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69HWb4g022597 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:32:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004070917323101300j4478e>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:32:31 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:31:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002f01c46515$65c2f290$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, I am a lunatic -- I have ended up buying a warp-weighted loom to learn to weave on so I understand the transition period from warp-weighted to horizontal weaving, too! (I already weave on a modern horizontal handloom.) But I just hate books where the writer gets the technical details wrong, it ruins the "feel" of the story for me. Plus, as a writer, I find that the experience of texture and motion is a way into the thought-processes of a character. I can't do EVERYTHING a character would do (or rather, what a dull story if the character were limited to what I could act out!) but it helps to know what callouses and backaches she or he might have had. Likewise I began my study of the martial art aikido 20 years ago because I was interested in writing warrior adventures and I wanted to know *something* about fighting. Of course it takes me a very long time to write anything that I'm satisfied with, so I am not sure I actually recommmend my own approach! Lauren > From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" > Hey! > That is serious work. Whow!!! > > Bjarne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lauren Walker" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 5:01 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] novel/book inspired dress > > >> I'm worse. I'm a writer, and I'll dress up like my main character while I >> work! >> Lauren >> >> >>> From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows >> >>> >>>> Have you ever thoaght the same, dressing up your hero / heroin from a > novel? >>> >>> Whenever I read anything historical, I always picture the characters in >>> costumes. These include the hero/heroine, the bad guys, or even the > people >>> I only read about for a paragraph or two. If I really care about the >>> characters I may invent more than one outfit for them, as the novel >>> progresses. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:42:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69HgBRM021555 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:42:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Hdld5005358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:39:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Hdh4g028407; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:39:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Hde4g028359 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:39:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19895 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:43:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:43:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lauren writes about early English headcoverings, with this observation: > ...a woman of such a time would probably have just bundled her head > up, matter of factly, in the style she was used to. Sort of the way an > Indian woman can just wrap a sari. That's my sense, too. We see a zillion variations, looking over centuries' worth of art, but any one woman in any one period probably wrapped her veil the same way pretty much every day. When you're used to it, you probably can do it with a few quick flips and tucks. I think of how I can put my hair in a bun in 30 seconds with two pins; someone who's never done so before would probably take much longer to do figure out how to do that, and need a lot more practice to do it quickly. > This has caused me to lose faith in the rather more fussy barbet and > fillet and lots o' pins style I have been wearing on my head, and to > doubt that the character in my story would have done anything so > fussy. Don't know about the style, but I wouldn't rule out pins. Many years ago (would have been mid-1980s) I met a young archaeologist at Kalamazoo. He gave a paper on pins found in Anglo-Saxon graves. In addition to looking at the shape, length, and metal content of the pins, he was particularly interested in their distribution on the body. They seemed to appear frequently in certain parts -- suggesting their habitual use in securing clothing -- but he was astonished to find a huge number of them were clustered around women's heads. This led him to suggest, ever so hesitantly, that perhaps ... Anglo-Saxon women wore veils? My costume-researcher partner and I were convulsed. We sat down with him later and found that as an archaeologist, he'd never considered looking at *art* to see the depictions of women's clothing, and he knew nothing about the published literature on costume history. We told him that he'd have a lot harder time if he set out to prove that Anglo-Saxon women *didn't* wear veils! And then we peppered him with questions about the pins, and he asked us to show him different ways we had of putting up our hair. (He also confessed to following nuns around the streets of London trying to figure out the mechanics of their veil arrangements!) I don't think you could determine the veil arrangements from the fall of the pins around the skulls in the graves, but it's a pretty good argument that pins (sometimes sizable numbers of them) were used for some Anglo-Saxon head-wraps -- at least when someone was wrapping the head of a woman's corpse! Oh, the archaeologist is now a Big Name in England, but not working in costume that I know of. I see his name on papers from time to time. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 13:58:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69HwvRM026638 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:58:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Hued5007331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:56:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Huc4g042458; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:56:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.72]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Hua4g042434 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:56:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jaurbik@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (ool-18bde58e.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.229.142]) by mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I0L006Q7J6GDM@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 13:56:35 -0400 From: "J.A.Urbik" Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails In-reply-to: To: Historical Costume Message-id: <40EEDC53.4080406@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) References: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: ...(clip) > Don't know about the style, but I wouldn't rule out pins. Many years ago > (would have been mid-1980s) I met a young archaeologist at Kalamazoo. He > gave a paper on pins found in Anglo-Saxon graves. In addition to looking > at the shape, length, and metal content of the pins, he was particularly > interested in their distribution on the body. They seemed to appear > frequently in certain parts -- suggesting their habitual use in securing > clothing -- but he was astonished to find a huge number of them were > clustered around women's heads. This led him to suggest, ever so > hesitantly, that perhaps ... Anglo-Saxon women wore veils? ...(clip) > wear veils! And then we peppered him with questions about the pins, and he > asked us to show him different ways we had of putting up our hair. (He > also confessed to following nuns around the streets of London trying to > figure out the mechanics of their veil arrangements!) ...(clip) > --Robin > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Ok, so why type of pins did he mostly find? DId they look like bobby pins? I am been somewhat courious about what type of pins people are talking about anyway.... Jordana _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 14:21:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69IL1RM004247 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:21:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69IKRd5010275 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69IKM4g062025; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:20:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69IKJ4g061966 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:20:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20200 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:24:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:24:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails In-Reply-To: <40EEDC53.4080406@optonline.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, J.A.Urbik wrote: > > Don't know about the style, but I wouldn't rule out pins. Many years ago > > (would have been mid-1980s) I met a young archaeologist at Kalamazoo. He > > gave a paper on pins found in Anglo-Saxon graves. In addition to looking > > at the shape, length, and metal content of the pins, he was particularly > > interested in their distribution on the body. They seemed to appear > > frequently in certain parts -- suggesting their habitual use in securing > > clothing -- but he was astonished to find a huge number of them were > > clustered around women's heads. This led him to suggest, ever so > > hesitantly, that perhaps ... Anglo-Saxon women wore veils? > > Ok, so why type of pins did he mostly find? DId they look like > bobby pins? I am been somewhat courious about what type of pins people > are talking about anyway.... They looked like ordinary straight pins. I think the length and thickness varied, but I don't recall whether they varied by grave or within a grave, or with any pattern. These were most likely for veil arranging, not necessarily hair arranging, but I can put my hair up with straight pins if they're longish and heavy enough not to bend in use. When I've wrapped veils in something approximating Anglo-Saxon style, I don't put my hair up. I braid my hair first and tuck the long braid into a fold of the veil as I wrap. Perhaps having my braid tangled up in the wrap helps keep the arrangement on my head? I don't do this enough, and not recently enough, to have a sense for how well it stays on for a long duration, or to develop a pattern of wrapping that I can do routinely on myself. I've also noticed that in some images, the veil forms twisty lumps on the top of the head. Perhaps the veil is twisted up with the hair to begin, and then the ends wrapped around? That would keep the arrangement in place even if it isn't tight under the chin, particularly if you pinned through the part of the veil that holds the hair. Mostly I have used this sort of wrapped-veil arrangement as a cheat on women with short hair. I take a rather long length of linen, maybe 24" wide, and put one corner at the top of the head. I wrap the long side below the chin and back to the top, and pin it to make a circle around the face (not too tight). And then it goes down again, loosely across the upper chest, and either tossed over the shoulder or taken all the way around the back and around again to the front, where it's tucked under what's there. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 17:58:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69LwSRM005923 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:58:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Lvhd5029037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:57:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69LvX4g027782; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:57:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav1.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.105]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69LvU4g027660 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:57:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:57:24 -0700 Received: from 66.130.163.130 by bay9-dav1.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:57:24 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.130.163.130] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:58:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jul 2004 21:57:24.0652 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7B736C0:01C465FF] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't know. But those corselets he puts over gothic dresses is just a wrong interpretation of statues. If you look at some statues on cathedrals , like Chartre (they date back between 11th and 13thC), the dresses have wrinkles under the bust down to about hipline, because they were laced closed (or sewn onto the body). I made one dressed laced on the sides, and after I wear it for a few hours it makes a whole bunch of horizontal folds, like you see on those statues. Take a look here http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/gothic/1/french/01f_1230.jpg and here http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/gothic/1/french/01f_1231.jpg Other things he invented... I have no idea where he took them :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lauren Walker" To: "h-costume" Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:16 AM Subject: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? > Hi, > I've had the privilege of seeing Robin Netherton's lecture on the mistakes > of Victorian costume "historians", so when I saw that all the faces in the > illustrations of Herbert Norris' _Medieval Costume and Fashion_ (first > published in 1927) somehow resembled Charles Dana Gibson illustrations, I > knew I could not take this Dover reprint at its word. So my question for > today is: what, if anything, might have possessed Norris to write that women > were wearing corsets during the reign of Henry I, 1100 - 1135? > All conjectures entertained... > Lauren > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 18:05:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69M5fRM005991 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:05:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69M3Zd5029616 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:03:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69M3X4g032197; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:03:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69M3U4h032118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:03:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-237.sonic.net [209.148.112.237]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i69M3Pdt022760 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:03:26 -0700 Message-ID: <40EF175A.8020702@lavoltapress.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:08:26 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Art Nouveau flatware--again References: <40EED126.1010605@lavoltapress.com> In-Reply-To: <40EED126.1010605@lavoltapress.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, for a Victorian look, the Oneida stainless Michaelangelo and Louisiana aren't bad. Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming Two new books with 1870s and 1880s patterns! http://www.lavoltapress.com > > This site also sells stainless flatware, but so far none of it looks > particularly historic to me. > > Fran > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 18:24:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69MO2RM006039 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:24:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69MM6d5001885 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:22:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69MM24g045534; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:22:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69MM04g045459 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:22:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Bj3kg-000AvM-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:21:55 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:20:33 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO OK, I do Norman, and I'm obsessed with headcoverings. With me it's not so much nuns, but I get embarrassed to find I'm staring at Muslim women trying to work out how their veils are wrapped. Lauren, if I can email an attachment direct to you I have an article I did recently for my group on three styles for headcoverings from 1066 to 1215, but I'll make some notes here. People probably know by now, I don't claim to be a great researcher, so this comes from pictures and experience, not any in-depth study of archeological pin patterns or anything. I reckon pins are definitely the answer. One of the issues for this period is the notorious "wimple band", which is almost ubiquitous among re-enactors, but is hardly ever seen in art. Most veils do look as if they have no visible means of support. I have had good results using a band or undercap under the veil, which you then pin into, vertically. This is especially good for getting that Byzantine drape across the forehead. My usual advice is, put it over your head with one end reaching your shoulder and the other end hanging long. pin in the centre of the forehead and on each temple. Wrap the long end over the opposite shoulder and pin either to your dress or to the other end. And then stick pins in the rest of it until it stops annoying you. If you find a bit is falling forward or blowing about, stick a pin in it. I do struggle with the big drapey headrails, and I've never had enough fabric to try one of the ones that appears to be a floor-length mantle worn over the head as well. But I comfort myself by seeing the Bangladeshi women in my area twitching their dupattas and losing them in a high wind. And they've been doing it all their lives, so it must be OK. I will have to try Robin's arrangement starting with a corner on top of the head. I have noticed that one of the more tightly-wrapped Muslim arrangements finishes with a point pinned on top, and I want to see if I can get that one. Jean Lauren Walker wrote >Regarding head coverings -- of all the things one sees in pictures for which >I wish there were directions, some of the veil/headrail wrappings are >probably first on the list. To pick on Norris again, trying to follow any of >his directions for head wrapping is just hilarious, but part of the charm of >his illustrations is that they all look so movie-goddess graceful, even if >you can tell they'd fall off the moment the woman moved. > >So anyway, I am still vacillating about whether my area of interest leads me >to the late 10th, 11th, or 12th centuries -- it starts to narrow down to >roughly the 50 years either side of the Norman Conquest and then I stumble >upon something that sends me back into the late 900s -- but throughout that >period, women of the middle and lower sorts were wearing big cloth things >variously festooned around their heads and necks. I am wondering if anybody >has either a good timeline of how heads were wrapped when, or a good set of >directions for the various styles. I was enchanted at the SCA Hrim Schola >this winter when Anne Liese (whose mundane name escapes me at the moment) >demonstrated a headwrap I'd always assumed from the artworks was a framed >and constructed thing that turned out to be one big honking piece of linen >cleverly arranged. The way she shook it off and wrapped it up again gave me >a vision of how a woman of such a time would probably have just bundled her >head up, matter of factly, in the style she was used to. Sort of the way an >Indian woman can just wrap a sari. This has caused me to lose faith in the >rather more fussy barbet and fillet and lots o' pins style I have been >wearing on my head, and to doubt that the character in my story would have >done anything so fussy. I just think if you wore it every day it would have >to hold better in a strong wind than my arrangement! One of my tests for >costume is to wear it around and see if it falls off, in which case I still >haven't got it right. And so far all my veilings do. > >So: Since I'm mostly interested in early medieval English, there's a >headrail arrangement that I'd really like to figure out. It seems to result >in the short end hanging down about chin-length next to the face and the >long end remaining long enough to wrap around the neck and throw over the >shoulder or tuck into the gown, a sort of pseudo-wimple. The head part >appears to be a trick of wrapping, so that one tighter wrap at some point >holds the looser folds in place, but I can't get the hang of how it works. >Has anybody any clues for this? I would appreciate them. > >Thanks! >Lauren > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 18:31:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69MVeRM006056 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:31:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69MV4d5002757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:31:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69MV04g051967; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:31:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69MUu4g051920 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:30:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21613 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:34:47 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:34:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Jean Waddie wrote: > I reckon pins are definitely the answer. One of the issues for this > period is the notorious "wimple band", which is almost ubiquitous among > re-enactors, but is hardly ever seen in art. ... > I will have to try Robin's arrangement starting with a corner on top of > the head. I wonder ... perhaps my usual method of wrapping and pinning the first couple of feet of the long edge around the face serves the purpose of the "wimple band"? In essence, I'm anchoring the beginning of the veil, and then as you wrap from there, you have that first firm wraparound to pin into. If I understand your "wimple band" correctly, it's in the same position as my initial wrap. So maybe you don't need a separate band to accomplish that purpose. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 18:39:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69MdBRM006079 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:39:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69MbMd5003427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:37:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69MbK4g056325; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:37:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69MbI4g056249 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:37:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Bj3zX-000HeD-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:37:15 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:36:02 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote > >On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Jean Waddie wrote: > >> I reckon pins are definitely the answer. One of the issues for this >> period is the notorious "wimple band", which is almost ubiquitous among >> re-enactors, but is hardly ever seen in art. ... >> I will have to try Robin's arrangement starting with a corner on top of >> the head. > >I wonder ... perhaps my usual method of wrapping and pinning the first >couple of feet of the long edge around the face serves the purpose of the >"wimple band"? In essence, I'm anchoring the beginning of the veil, and >then as you wrap from there, you have that first firm wraparound to pin >into. If I understand your "wimple band" correctly, it's in the same >position as my initial wrap. So maybe you don't need a separate band to >accomplish that purpose. > >--Robin > I don't think so. My band goes around like a sweatband, from forehead to nape. If I understand you correctly, yours is around the face, crown to chin? Do you pin it into braided hair, or how do you make it stay where it's put? When I have pinned a wimple around the face like this, I tend to find it either slips backwards or, if there is additional fabric attached, slips round like a girth slipping off a horse :-) Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 19:23:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69NNmRM006218 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:23:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69NLqd5010149 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:21:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69NLj4g087437; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:21:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69NLg4g087390 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:21:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.164] (pm5-164.eos.net [205.133.149.164]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69NLcq6004611 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:21:38 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 19:19:31 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407091703.i69H3K4h099484@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 500 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO on 7/9/04 1:03 PM, h-costume-request@indra.com at h-costume-request@indra.com wrote > Just to make you feel better, he does have a lovely coif. Can't remember > why he diidn't have it on that day. He's really pretty rabid about > authenticity. He taught himself medieval Catalan so that he could translate > a cooking manuscript from one the museum in Barcelona. My goodness, Jessamyn, I hope what I wrote didn't sound critical! I'm glad to know he does have a coif, because otherwise he looked so perfect. > > As for this garment, there was originally some concern how the plaid would > hang/sag(?) over time. I am happy to say that all still looks well, even > after 2 years and repeated wearings. I did a little bit stabilization, > tacking it here and there to the lining. But it was very minimal, and, if it > was going to sag or stretch, it still would have happened. I haven't > attempted the female version yet. Did you line the plaid part? I was thinking about doing that. Gail Finke who does not have a Spanish persona, but just wants one of these! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 19:42:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i69NgQRM006276 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:42:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69Nebd5013158 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:40:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69NeY4g000268; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:40:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i69NeT4g000226 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:40:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj4yi-0002NK-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:40:28 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Wheel Farthingale-Hunisset-Attn Bjarn Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:40:34 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c4660e$216048b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <001a01c4658b$5f27f450$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i69NeT4g000226 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >She has a pattern of a drum farthingale i used for the purple dress. Only i >made it bigger. Jean Hunnisets pattern is good, but it is not very big. Bjarne, Yes, I do have this book. I have made my first 'mockup' (pattern board, cut in a circle to see if I like the size), and am about ready to put the calico mockup together. I have two questions right now. (I am sure I will have more later). One is that the front never seems so round in the pictures I have looked at. I was wondering if I purposely squared off the front so the skirt dropped vertiacally if that was really how they made a "half Farthingale". And if that is correct do the canes just end at the front and are they supported at all across the front? Secondy, if you don't do that and you leave the farthingale rounded in front it it almost looks like there is a space create for the bodice to lay flat in between the front sides of the farthingale. The bodice doesn't appear to stick out as much and lay on the top of the skirt. Thank you for the pictures btw. Wow! Black and white photos! Sg >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews >Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:05 AM >To: Historical Costume >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Attention Bjarne...what happened to these pictures? > >The pictures of my wheelfarthingales, was taken off my web because i had to >take new things up. >I did not make any pictures of the underwear. >Saragrace do you have Jean Hunnisets book of renaissance clothes. >She has a pattern of a drum farthingale i used for the purple dress. Only i >made it bigger. Jean Hunnisets pattern is good, but it is not very big. > >Bjarne > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" >To: >Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 12:23 AM >Subject: [h-cost] Attention Bjarne...what happened to these pictures? > > >Hi Bjarne, what happened to the pictures of your final project from school? >And also, do you by any chance have a picture of the underpinnings that go >with this dress? What I am after is do you make the front in this gown >farthingale flat, or is it completely round with the waist hole just shifted >forward. > > > > > >http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/underpinnings_.htm > > > >Sg > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 20:23:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A0NCRM006401 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:23:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A0Mfd5019427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:22:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A0Mc4g027104; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:22:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A0Ma4g027084 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:22:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.59.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.59]) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj5dT-0001qr-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:22:35 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:21:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I would love to see this when you get home!!! Cutting this garment on the bias wastes an enormous amount of fabric, which is not at all logical. Evidence that it was woven this way would help it all make sense. Grace/Jessamyn > From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" > Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:08:09 0000 > To: "Historical Costume" > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume > > Greetings, > > It is an interesting garment that periodically gets mentioned on this list. > Ususally, people assume that the fabric was regular plaid cut on the bias. > However, I have a picture in one of my manuscript facsimilie books (the > Sanitas stuff comes to mind) of a weaver weaving that type of fabric so that > the pattern runs on the diagonal. Very cool find I thought, except I can't > tell you for sure since I am in england and my books are in Minnesota... > > Cheers, > Danielle > > --------- Original Message --------- >> Just being Spanish is reason enough to expect all kinds of weirdness in the >> Middle Ages. This lady has a pretty good web site: >> http://jessamynscloset.com/ . There is a picture of a parti-colored gothic >> fitted dress where one half is plaid - on the diagonal! >> >> Janet > > > Need a new email address that people can remember > Check out the new EudoraMail at > http://www.eudoramail.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 20:58:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A0wSRM006486 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:58:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A0vrd5022791 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:57:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A0vk4g046892; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:57:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A0vf4g046854 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:57:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.59.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.59]) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj6BQ-0000R5-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:57:41 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:56:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm working on it!! There should be a MAJOR update of my web site in a couple of week. "Teaching is a wonderful thing. June, July, and August are just an added bonus." Jessamyn > From: "JAMES OGILVIE" > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:23:35 -0400 > To: "Historical Costume" > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X > > > Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally > got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover > when you finally see the garment in person. > > Does this mean you brought back lots of good photos of art that you will soon > be posting on your web site (hint, hint)? It is so hard to find Spanish > medieval and renaissance art either in books or, even worse, on the internet. > > Janet > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 21:03:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A13XRM006498 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:03:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A11id5023071 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:01:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A11h4g049140; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:01:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A11c4g049086 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:01:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22477 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:05:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:05:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I wrote: > >I wonder ... perhaps my usual method of wrapping and pinning the first > >couple of feet of the long edge around the face serves the purpose of the > >"wimple band"? In essence, I'm anchoring the beginning of the veil, and > >then as you wrap from there, you have that first firm wraparound to pin > >into. If I understand your "wimple band" correctly, it's in the same > >position as my initial wrap. So maybe you don't need a separate band to > >accomplish that purpose. Jean wrote: > I don't think so. My band goes around like a sweatband, from forehead > to nape. If I understand you correctly, yours is around the face, crown > to chin? Do you pin it into braided hair, or how do you make it stay > where it's put? When I have pinned a wimple around the face like this, > I tend to find it either slips backwards or, if there is additional > fabric attached, slips round like a girth slipping off a horse :-) Ah. I consider "wimple" as meaning "under the chin," so I didn't picture something that would go from forehead to nape. Yes, mine wraps crown to chin. I just start the veil wrap at the crown (actually just a bit forward of it), circle under the chin (where the bulk of the veil falls down over the neck and and upper chest), then bring the edge back up to the beginning and overlap. At the overlap, I pin the veil to itself. You can add some pins along the curve of the head and at the back of the head if you need, to shape to your skull (imagine where the seam would be on a two-piece coif). I haven't had slippage problems, but then I haven't worn it for very long at a time. It may help that the wrap is just a bit forward of the crown, so even though the veil weight would tend to pull it backward, it can't slide back over the slightly larger circumference. Hmm. Something else you might do is to fold a corner of your veil over to make a diagonal line, like this: ____________________________________________________ /| | / | | / | | / | | /________|___________________________________________________| ...the diagonal part being the fold. Then wrap the folded edge around your head, crown to chin, to form your face-framing. It will have stretch to it, being on the bias. I haven't tried this with a long veil, but I've seen something similar work on a friend, who makes a flawless veil-and-wimple arrangement with two circles of linen. She folds one on the bias, puts the center under her chin, and pulls the ends of the fold up around her head and pins them together at the top to make a snug band around her face with the folded edge. She then pulls the excess material on the sides up along the sides of her head and pins them together at the back of the head and back of the neck. This makes the wimple. The other circle she arranges on top, pinning to the wimple. That covers the pinned parts of the wimple itself. She can do it in a flash, since she does it all the time. (She says she used to do it with a straight edge around her face, but found that uncomfortable because she had to make it tight to stay put. Then she heard me lecture about use of the bias for flexibility in certain dress constructions, and thought, "Hey, that would work on a veil too, and give me room to move my chin.") If you try this with a long veil, let me know. I have a feeling I've done it this way myself before, but it's been so long I don't remember, and I wouldn't have given it a very long field-test myself. Most of my veil-wrapping is for purposes of display or photos; my research focus is on the body garments, and I only do headdresses to complete the look when a full-body impression is necessary. I have a lot of short-haired models :-( --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 21:07:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A17CRM006504 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:07:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A161d5023383 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:06:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A15x4g051468; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:06:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A15v4g051451 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:05:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.59.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.59]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj6JQ-0001kG-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:05:57 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:04:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407091600.i69G0XLl040428@sabre.goldsword.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yeah, but I have to get the pictures in and a diagram. Basically we're talking about a tape sewn on the _underside_ of the opening, sewn down at intervals to make the holes. This is for her gown. His just has your normal round eyelet holes, spiral laced. Grace/Jessamyn > From: Susan Farmer > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:00:33 -0400 (EDT) > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X > >> >> Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally >> got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover >> when you finally see the garment in person. Too bad they won't dig up more >> royal graves around Europe... > > well .... You are going to tell us aren't you? > > Jerusha > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 21:21:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A1LfRM006550 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:21:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A1L9d5024371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:21:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A1L64g058941; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:21:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from whowhere.com (in02-fes1.whowhere.com [209.202.220.218]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6A1L34g058848 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:21:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@eudoramail.com) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by whowhere.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:20:41 -0000 To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:20:41 0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Priority: 3 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume X-Sender-Ip: 130.88.96.68 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Since I won't be going home until Christmas, I will cruise the University library collection and see if I can find it. If I haven't mentioned it in a couple of weeks, remind me... It was one of those things I made "mental note" of and can't for the life of me remember where I saw it. Frankly, I personally never thought the plaid was cut on the bias since it made no construction sense in the period context so I was thrilled when I found that image... Cheers, Danielle >I would love to see this when you get home!!! Cutting this garment on the >bias wastes an enormous amount of fabric, which is not at all logical. >Evidence that it was woven this way would help it all make sense. > >Grace/Jessamyn Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 21:56:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A1uIRM006690 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:56:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A1rFd5026387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:53:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A1rB4g075267; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:53:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net (starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.227]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A1r84g075242 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:53:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.21.87.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.21.87] helo=HELENPINTO) by starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bj735-0000FA-De for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 18:53:08 -0700 Message-ID: <007c01c46620$9c027590$57159b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:52:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef88299b0d8df9f1a35d5a8fde701ced5d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.21.87 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Maybe you can find some ideas here- scroll down to the section on the shayla for dealing with big rectangles. http://www.almuhajabat.com/howtowearhijab.html -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 23:28:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A3SgRM007135 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:28:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A3Qld5002004 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:26:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A3Qh4g024226; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:26:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A3Qe4g024196 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:26:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bj8Vc-0000F2-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:26:40 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:26:46 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c4662d$bae8b1b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Plaid and corsets X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6A3SgRM007135 Status: RO I know you all are probably wondering how I put these two subjects together, but I just ran across this during a further search of a site shared on another list. The time period is all wrong with respect to the plaid discussion (and yes, I know this isn't plaid), but I thought the use of the geometric shape on what could be the bias was similar and might be of interest. Maybe they wove this, as is, on the straight.but who knows. Secondly, I don't speak French, but down towards the bottom it says something about the basquine being the ancestor of corsets. Basquine sounds familiar, though I've not looked it up yet.interesting.. http://tinyurl.com/2yn4y http://www.musee-renaissance.fr/images/pages/bitmaps/eco_5_00DE21386.jpg Anyway, enjoy. There are several other textile items of interest as well. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 9 23:52:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A3qCRM007238 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:52:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A3nEd5003188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:49:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A3nB4g035877; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:49:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A3n94g035836 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:49:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6A4K75c046013 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:20:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6A4K7ua046012 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:20:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407100420.i6A4K7ua046012@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Yeah, but I have to get the pictures in and a diagram. Basically we're > talking about a tape sewn on the _underside_ of the opening, sewn down at > intervals to make the holes. This is for her gown. His just has your > normal round eyelet holes, spiral laced. Interesting. I realized after I sent it that my little question should have had a smiley attached. It sounded rather "abrubt" reading it back. didn't mean it that way. Jerusha > >> > >> Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally > >> got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover > >> when you finally see the garment in person. Too bad they won't dig up more > >> royal graves around Europe... > > > > well .... You are going to tell us aren't you? > > > > Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 00:04:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A44URM007285 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:04:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A42wd5004100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:02:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A42q4g043028; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:02:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51301.mail.yahoo.com (web51301.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.167]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6A42n4g042965 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:02:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040710040243.55185.qmail@web51301.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.237.35.6] by web51301.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:02:43 PDT Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:02:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli Subject: Terms Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This difference in nomenclature has hit me before: > Ah. I consider "wimple" as meaning "under the chin," > so I didn't picture > something that would go from forehead to nape. > Robin N I've seen wimple stated with the greatest of firmness as the around-the-throat head drapery & as the over-the-head drapery bit. Perhaps 'gorget' from the French 'gorge', throat, for the around-the-throat bit, so long as we say it's not metal, and give a date; and a 'veil' on top of the head, will specify which bit is which. The Anglo-Saxon whole head wrap jobby, I've heard mostly as 'headrail'. Ann in CT __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 00:13:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A4DiRM007315 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:13:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A48Rd5004440 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:08:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A48Q4g045770; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:08:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.82]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6A48O4g045759 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:08:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sarah@modehistorique.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?69.111.109.215?) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@69.111.109.215 with plain) by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2004 04:08:24 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <000001c4662d$bae8b1b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> References: <000001c4662d$bae8b1b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sarah lorraine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid and corsets Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:08:24 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Secondly, I don't speak French, but down towards the bottom it says > something about the basquine being the ancestor of corsets. Basquine > sounds > familiar, though I've not looked it up yet.interesting.. "Vasquine" or "basquine" is supposedly the early Spanish version of a stiffened bodice, or in other words, a precurser to the corset. Ruth M. Anderson devotes some discussion time to this in _Hispanic Costume_. Cool site, by the way, even if my French is rather too primitive to understand most of it. ;) Sarah http://www.modehistorique.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 01:21:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A5LjRM007662 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:21:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5Jud5008396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:19:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5Jr4g080743; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:19:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt4.ihug.co.nz (grunt4.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.44]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5Jo4g080633 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:19:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p30-nas1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.210.30] by grunt4.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BjAGv-00055C-00; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:19:38 +1200 Message-ID: <002f01c4663d$7db4b6d0$1ed2adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c4662d$bae8b1b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid and corsets Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:19:34 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Secondly, I don't speak French, but down towards the bottom it says > > something about the basquine being the ancestor of corsets. Basquine > > sounds > > familiar, though I've not looked it up yet.interesting.. I also recall finding this in Boucher's book last night... "Contrary to the opinion of certain 19th century authors, this was not a corsage or bodice but 'a very wide skirt held well out by circles.' It was confused with the farthingale and was also known as an hoche-plis. Sometimes only the front was in rich material, the rest being hidden by the gown. In Spain it was called the basquina." There is mention in the body of the book for his reasoning: "It is probably on a late misunderstood interpretation of the Spanish term cuerpo baxo That frnch hitorians have confused the corps rigide or stiff bodice with the basquine or vasquine, which in any case was little worn in France. Seventeenth century authors define it as a sort of gown 'very wide and stretched over hoops, ' and the inventories of Mary Stuart refer to fine basquines of cloths of gold with bodices (corps)', thus clearly signifying that corps and basquine were seperate parts of costume." I would suggest it's more analogous to a petticoat which can have a bodice or be just a skirt;) That is if his research is correct. And there are some odd things in the glossary... http://www.vertetsable.com/research_vocabulary.htm Under vasquina, suggests he is. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 01:26:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A5QqRM007672 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:26:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5QHd5008707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:26:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5QG4g083675; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:26:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6A5QE4g083650 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:26:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 31704 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2004 05:26:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2004 05:26:45 -0000 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com); by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1177.24.4.69.40.1089437173.squirrel@24.4.69.40> In-Reply-To: References: <000001c4662d$bae8b1b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 22:26:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT-Need something from England X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sorry for the OT message but I need something from England and was wondering if anyone on the list who lives there would be willing to help me out. If you are willing, and you live near a Waitrose store, please contact me off list. I will gladly do a favor for you in return..... Thanks! Diana Habra www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 01:54:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A5swRM008375 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:54:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5rCd5010259 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:53:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5r94g097274; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:53:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5r84g097222 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:53:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lizyoung@fenris.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c-24-7-132-137.client.comcast.net[24.7.132.137]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with ESMTP id <2004071005530201400lehtce>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:53:02 +0000 Message-ID: <40EF843D.8080505@fenris.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:53:01 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am stretching my poor battered brain trying to figure out how one would weave fabric on the straight that looks like plaid on the bias. ouch Any weavers out there? liz young Grace Morris wrote: > I would love to see this when you get home!!! Cutting this garment on the > bias wastes an enormous amount of fabric, which is not at all logical. > Evidence that it was woven this way would help it all make sense. > > Grace/Jessamyn > > >>From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" >>Organization: Lycos Mail (http://www.mail.eudoramail.com) >>Reply-To: Historical Costume >>Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:08:09 0000 >>To: "Historical Costume" >>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume >> >>Greetings, >> >>It is an interesting garment that periodically gets mentioned on this list. >>Ususally, people assume that the fabric was regular plaid cut on the bias. >>However, I have a picture in one of my manuscript facsimilie books (the >>Sanitas stuff comes to mind) of a weaver weaving that type of fabric so that >>the pattern runs on the diagonal. Very cool find I thought, except I can't >>tell you for sure since I am in england and my books are in Minnesota... >> >>Cheers, >>Danielle >> >>--------- Original Message --------- >> >>>Just being Spanish is reason enough to expect all kinds of weirdness in the >>>Middle Ages. This lady has a pretty good web site: >>>http://jessamynscloset.com/ . There is a picture of a parti-colored gothic >>>fitted dress where one half is plaid - on the diagonal! >>> >>>Janet >> >> _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 01:57:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A5vFRM008384 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:57:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5tRd5010346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:55:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5tR4g098410; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:55:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A5tP4g098375 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:55:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24044 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:59:17 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:59:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Terms Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails In-Reply-To: <20040710040243.55185.qmail@web51301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Ann Catelli wrote: > This difference in nomenclature has hit me before: > > > Ah. I consider "wimple" as meaning "under the chin," > > so I didn't picture > > something that would go from forehead to nape. > > Robin N > > I've seen wimple stated with the greatest of firmness as the > around-the-throat head drapery & as the over-the-head drapery bit. Heh -- I was thinking of both together, not one or the other. The dictionary I have at hand defines "wimple" as the combination of both -- that is, a cloth covering worn over the head *and* around the neck and chin. I believe that fits with the current usage (as in a nun's wimple, which is an all-in-one unit, I think). And when I edited an article on Anglo-Saxon costume not long ago, the author (who is reliable when it comes to terminology for her period) was adamant about using the word "wimple" for a one-piece headdress that covers the chin as well as the head, and she distinguished that from a head-wrap. On the other hand, I've also heard "wimple" to describe only the chin-covering, with the "veil" separate -- as "veil and wimple." That makes more sense for periods in which the arrangement consisted of two pieces (which, I think, might not have been the case in Anglo-Saxon). Still, I wonder if the phrase "veil and wimple" is really a period phrase (which would indicate two parts of a combo) or whether it's just something used by costume authors. (I've never heard the word used to mean something that didn't involve a neck covering, though, which goes back to my original comment.) None of this tells us how the word was used in period, of course. It may have varied, as the types of head/neck coverings varied. For instance, since the two-piece arrangement apparently came later than the one-piece version, it's quite conceivable that the word "wimple" might have gone from meaning a one-piece covering to one part of a two-piece covering. However, I don't know offhand in which periods the word "wimple" was current and how it was used (without looking it up in the MED as well as the OED; I have the latter here, but I'm too lazy tonight to haul it out). But the quotes are likely not to tell us much; I can think offhand of one reference from Chaucer to the Wyf of Bath being "wimpled well," but that doesn't tell us what parts were covered by the wimple. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 02:14:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A6E1RM010067 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:14:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A6B4d5011277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:11:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A6B24g006677; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:11:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A6B14g006661 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:11:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-68-164-169-228.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([68.164.169.228] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjB4e-0001B6-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:11:00 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40EF843D.8080505@fenris.net> References: <40EF843D.8080505@fenris.net> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:07:44 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:53 PM -0700 7/9/04, Elizabeth Young wrote: >I am stretching my poor battered brain trying to figure out how one >would weave fabric on the straight that looks like plaid on the bias. >ouch > >Any weavers out there? I've seen some drawings of medieval weavers at the loom where the fabric has a "lozengy" pattern on it, but I've always taken it for a representation of a diamond twill weave of some sort. And, of course, one can get a _lot_ of mileage out of brocading techniques and compound twills, if that's what one wants to do. One of the garments from Las Huelgas has a two-color diamond pattern that I believe is simply some type of compound weave. In regards to the Spanish "half-bias-plaid" garments, the question that occurs to me is not, "is it _possible_ that this could be a complex plaid design woven by some brocading or compound weave to appear to be set on the bias?" but rather "is there a good basis for preferring this as an explanation over a regular plaid fabric cut on the bias?" Sure, it's technologically possible to create a multi-color plaid-like pattern set at 45 degress to the grain -- even with medieval technology. But under what circumstances would someone be inspired to do so? Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 03:08:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A78JRM015663 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:08:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A76Ud5013606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:06:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A75C4g034196; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:05:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.186]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6A75A4g034175 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:05:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sarah@modehistorique.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?69.105.80.194?) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@69.105.80.194 with plain) by smtp807.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2004 07:05:09 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <002f01c4663d$7db4b6d0$1ed2adcb@michaela> References: <000001c4662d$bae8b1b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> <002f01c4663d$7db4b6d0$1ed2adcb@michaela> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <7A47A77E-D23F-11D8-BAC6-000D9353A386@modehistorique.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sarah lorraine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid and corsets Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:05:08 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > "It is probably on a late misunderstood interpretation of the Spanish > term > cuerpo baxo That frnch hitorians have confused the corps rigide or > stiff > bodice with the basquine or vasquine, which in any case was little > worn in > France. Seventeenth century authors define it as a sort of gown 'very > wide > and stretched over hoops, ' and the inventories of Mary Stuart refer > to fine > basquines of cloths of gold with bodices (corps)', thus clearly > signifying > that corps and basquine were seperate parts of costume." Sheesh. Brain fart! Just ignore my previous message and pretend like it never happened. ;) Sarah http://www.modehistorique.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 04:49:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6A8nCRM004114 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:49:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A8lPd5017149 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:47:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A8lL4g083290; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:47:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6A8lH4g083229 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 02:47:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be01.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.1]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 5BC445EE059 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:47:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001601c4665a$86f6af60$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:47:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] wheel farthingale. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Saragrace. Yes you could square off the round front, or you could make the cirkle oval. But you have to put the cane all way round, otherwise it will not support. In another book, with theatrical costumes, Evolution of Fashion, they have made the cirkle elipse shaped. If you make your bodice long, especially the points in the front and (in case you use a stomacher) it could press down the farthingale in the front, and make the space from the cirkle to the waist smaller. Hope you get my meaning here. Is there a chance we can se some pictures of your work? Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 09:26:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ADQpRM009497 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:26:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ADOtd5029337 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:24:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ADOk4g024702; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:24:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmlapp16.siteprotect.com (cmlapp16.siteprotect.com [64.41.126.229]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ADOi4g024643 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:24:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cschmitt@genteelarts.com) Received: from genteelarts (oh-69-68-46-76.dyn.sprint-hsd.net [69.68.46.76]) by cmlapp16.siteprotect.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B353077D for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:24:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "Carolann Schmitt" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Spanish costume Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:24:21 -0400 Organization: Genteel Arts Message-ID: <000e01c46681$3b361170$0300a8c0@genteelarts> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is not my period of interest, but the comment about bias wasting fabric caught my eye. I agree that cutting the entire piece on the bias would not be an economical use of fabric. However, in the mid-19th century garment pieces - especially sleeves - and various trimmings are frequently cut on the bias. Examination of original garments shows that the bias is usually pieced, with patterns and/or plaids carefully matched. From experience, I can cut very large garment sections using no more and occasionally less fabric than if I cut it on the straight grain. And I've frequently found piecing on other garments and garment sections cut on the grain. Is piecing not a common technique during this period? Carolann Schmitt cschmitt@genteelarts.com www.genteelarts.com Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 3-6, 2005 >I would love to see this when you get home!!! Cutting this garment on the >bias wastes an enormous amount of fabric, which is not at all logical. >Evidence that it was woven this way would help it all make sense. >Grace/Jessamyn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 10:29:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AET7RM010219 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:29:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AEPed5003096 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:25:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AEPZ4g056106; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:25:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net (cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AEPW4g056086 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:25:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjInE-0000ZX-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:25:32 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] wheel farthingale. Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:25:39 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c46689$c69961b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001601c4665a$86f6af60$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6AEPW4g056086 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think I got everything you said except this part. >> it could press down the farthingale in the front, >and make the space from the cirkle to the waist smaller. Do you have QEWU Bjrane? On page 62, there are two portraits pertinant to the discussion. 106 pretty clearly shows a full circle. What do you think about 107. Do you think the skirt is a full circle and that the pressure on the front causes the back of the skirt to rise so high? Or is the perspective a little off and the front is really flat? Here is another which is more flat fronted I think. http://www.folger.edu/public/exhibit/elizabeth/vandepasse.asp I wonder if the there is much of the farthingale in front at all. I am also becoming more convinced that the height in the back is pretty much an illusion. I can see that the farthingale itself might need to be sloped a bit so the final skirt doesn't droop in the back. If you cover the front of the gown in the above image at the natural waist, the back doesn't look so high. Just skimming through QEWU, I see that very few of the gowns are full circles. Here is one example tough: http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/portrait.asp?mkey=mw07094 Most appear to flatten in front which is how I think I will end up going. I think I like the softer look too. Any and all help is appreciated. I will take a picture today...mind you it is VERY rough...but the process might be interesting to some. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 10:59:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AExIRM010914 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:59:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AEvVd5005038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:57:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AEvS4g073447; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:57:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AEvQ4g073425 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:57:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.2.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.2]) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjJI1-0001UJ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:57:22 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:56:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000e01c46681$3b361170$0300a8c0@genteelarts> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO From experience, I > can cut very large garment sections using no more and occasionally less > fabric than if I cut it on the straight grain. And I've frequently found > piecing on other garments and garment sections cut on the grain. > > Is piecing not a common technique during this period? I'm sure that I could have pieced this a lot...and probably gone crazy from the matching. But it most certainly could be done that way--fortunately I didn't have to! Danielle says that she has somewhere depictions of weavers that might indicate a diagonal weave. Interestingly enough, even though you see lots of complex plaids used for bed hangings and spread, they are never on the diagonal...Just more food for thought. Grace/Jessamyn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 11:01:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AF1IRM010934 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:01:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AExUd5005179 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:59:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AExU4g074553; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:59:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AEx94g074373 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:59:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.2.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.2]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjJJj-0007Ce-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:59:08 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:57:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407100420.i6A4K7ua046012@sabre.goldsword.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Not a problem. And I AM working as fast as I can! :) Grace/Jessamyn > From: Susan Farmer > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:20:07 -0400 (EDT) > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X > >> Yeah, but I have to get the pictures in and a diagram. Basically we're >> talking about a tape sewn on the _underside_ of the opening, sewn down at >> intervals to make the holes. This is for her gown. His just has your >> normal round eyelet holes, spiral laced. > > Interesting. I realized after I sent it that my little question should > have had a smiley attached. It sounded rather "abrubt" reading it back. > didn't mean it that way. > > Jerusha > > >>>> >>>> Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I >>>> finally >>>> got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover >>>> when you finally see the garment in person. Too bad they won't dig up more >>>> royal graves around Europe... >>> >>> well .... You are going to tell us aren't you? >>> >>> Jerusha > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 11:04:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AF4MRM010945 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:04:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AF3pd5005418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:03:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AF3n4g076788; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:03:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AF3k4g076756 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:03:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26851 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:07:43 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:07:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] wheel farthingale. In-Reply-To: <000001c46689$c69961b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > Do you have QEWU Bjrane? On page 62, there are two portraits > pertinant to the discussion. 106 pretty clearly shows a full circle. 106 is probably not a valid image for skirt construction. The skirt artea was heavily restored (as Arnold notes), and the visible "rim" shape was very likely created by the restorer. The fact that nothing like it seems to occur elsewhere (that I know of) is a reason to be very suspicious here about what exactly might have been done in the restoration process. We've discussed this one here before; it comes up as an example periodically. I happen to have a post saved from a thread about this on Jul 22, 2003; you can pick up the whole thread in the archives under the subject line keyword phrase "Queen Elizabeth image". You'll find similar discussions on May 26, 2000 (look for subject keyword "Wheel Farthingales"), and Sept. 24, 1998 (try subject keyword "French farthingale"). I'm pretty sure there are others, but those are the ones I have at hand. This may be old news to you, Saragrace -- I'm pretty sure you were around for at least some of these discussions. But other people coming in at this point might find these earlier posts useful. In general, a spin through the archives on "farthingale" and "wheel" subject lines will turn up a fairly large number of threads on this in the past, so I won't re-hash older stuff here -- I could end up being online all day, and I have too much to do ;-) As some people here know, I do have some strong opinions about this topic. I recognize that other people have other views, and that's understandable given the information available in the general costume literature, so I won't get into it today; most of what I have to say is already collected on my page at http://www.netherton.net/robin. I've been continuing to gather material on the topic; likely publication not till 2007, I'm afraid, but at least that gives me some time to get it all organized. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 12:45:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AGjORM011489 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:45:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AGild5010326 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:44:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AGib4g033564; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:44:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AGiY4g033537 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:44:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjKxk-0007F7-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:44:32 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] wheel farthingale. Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:44:40 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c4669d$322ac960$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <000001c46689$c69961b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Okay, here is my 'dress diary'. I am in the process of revamping my website, so this is a quick and dirty... http://www.saragrace.net/3E_QEW.html Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 13:26:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AHQLRM011726 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:26:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AHOVd5012803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:24:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AHOT4g055382; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:24:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AHOP4g055355 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 11:24:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjLaK-00051Z-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:24:24 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] wheel farthingale. Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:24:32 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c466a2$c3e1d970$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6AHOP4g055355 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >106 is probably not a valid image for skirt construction. The skirt artea >was heavily restored (as Arnold notes), and the visible "rim" shape was >very likely created by the restorer. The fact that nothing like it seems >to occur elsewhere (that I know of) is a reason to be very suspicious here >about what exactly might have been done in the restoration process. [Sg] I'm not inclined to defend this portrait since it isn't what I am interested in recreating (especially the protruding knee part), but there are other examples (one of which I provided a link to) where the fall of the skirt is quite abrupt. Also in POF on pages 67-69 there is a spectrum of drum farthingale skirts, some of which drop very sharply on several different marble effigies alongside styles which are softer (specifically fig 67 which has both styles in one effigy). So it would seem that that particular artist knew there was a difference. Arnold herself talks about using the same gowns over different support structures. [Sg] As for my gown, the process will determine what I end up using, but I suspect it will contain as a minimum the under roll to support the cane structure and the pad on top. Since this is my first, I will follow Hunisett to a degree....already I see some things I will do differently. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 14:35:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AIZARM012173 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:35:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AIYYd5016603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:34:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AIYP4g094558; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:34:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AIYN4g094527 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:34:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27916 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:38:19 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:38:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] wheel farthingale. In-Reply-To: <000a01c466a2$c3e1d970$6a01a8c0@SG01> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > >106 is probably not a valid image for skirt construction. The skirt artea > >was heavily restored (as Arnold notes), and the visible "rim" shape was > >very likely created by the restorer. The fact that nothing like it seems > >to occur elsewhere (that I know of) is a reason to be very suspicious here > >about what exactly might have been done in the restoration process. > > [Sg] I'm not inclined to defend this portrait since it isn't what I am > interested in recreating (especially the protruding knee part), but there > are other examples (one of which I provided a link to) where the fall of the > skirt is quite abrupt. Also in POF on pages 67-69 there is a spectrum of > drum farthingale skirts, some of which drop very sharply on several > different marble effigies alongside styles which are softer (specifically > fig 67 which has both styles in one effigy). Oh, no argument at all about the variations in "abruptness" of drop, and the existence of several different silhouettes. I've found I could get both extremes with a structured roll, depending on how flat or rounded I made the upper surface of the roll, and whether I added a rim of boning around the edge (though the boning, in retrospect, did far less to define the edge than the roll shape itself, combined with the method of pleating on the skirt). The difficulty with #106, and all I was referring to in my post above, was the outline of a narrow protruding rim that looks like the narrow outer edge of cart-wheel, with nothing below it (as opposed to a sharp upper edge on what might be a much wider support structure). That particular picture is, as far as I know, unique in this regard, and certainly not reliable -- I wanted to call that to the attention of others who are following the thread and might just look at the picture without knowing its history. Good luck with the gown. I'll be interested in your results. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 16:12:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AKCgRM012633 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:12:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AK9cd5021794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:09:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AK9M4g044935; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:09:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AK9I4g044860 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:09:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BjO9q-0009al-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:09:14 +0100 Message-ID: <5g34+EERyE8AJwGG@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:07:45 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails References: <007c01c46620$9c027590$57159b04@HELENPINTO> In-Reply-To: <007c01c46620$9c027590$57159b04@HELENPINTO> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you so much! That is exactly what I was going to go looking for, some time when I got round to it. Jean Helen Pinto wrote >Maybe you can find some ideas here- scroll down to the section on the >shayla for dealing with big rectangles. > >http://www.almuhajabat.com/howtowearhijab.html > > -Helen/Aidan > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 16:17:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AKH2RM012651 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:17:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKDwd5021963 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:13:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKDv4g047370; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:13:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKDt4g047353 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:13:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BjOEM-000BcI-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:13:54 +0100 Message-ID: <3AS7mpEH3E8AJwk2@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:12:55 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote > >I wrote: >> >I wonder ... perhaps my usual method of wrapping and pinning the first >> >couple of feet of the long edge around the face serves the purpose of the >> >"wimple band"? In essence, I'm anchoring the beginning of the veil, and >> >then as you wrap from there, you have that first firm wraparound to pin >> >into. If I understand your "wimple band" correctly, it's in the same >> >position as my initial wrap. So maybe you don't need a separate band to >> >accomplish that purpose. > >Jean wrote: >> I don't think so. My band goes around like a sweatband, from forehead >> to nape. If I understand you correctly, yours is around the face, crown >> to chin? Do you pin it into braided hair, or how do you make it stay >> where it's put? When I have pinned a wimple around the face like this, >> I tend to find it either slips backwards or, if there is additional >> fabric attached, slips round like a girth slipping off a horse :-) > >Ah. I consider "wimple" as meaning "under the chin," so I didn't picture >something that would go from forehead to nape. Ah, terminology, dontcha love it! Yes, I was using "wimple" to mean a separate piece of cloth that goes under the chin, which I have done very much like you describe below. This is what I have found slips backwards, unless I pin it through french-braided hair, or a sweatband-style band. >Yes, mine wraps crown to >chin. I just start the veil wrap at the crown (actually just a bit forward >of it), circle under the chin (where the bulk of the veil falls down over >the neck and and upper chest), then bring the edge back up to the >beginning and overlap. At the overlap, I pin the veil to itself. You can >add some pins along the curve of the head and at the back of the head if >you need, to shape to your skull (imagine where the seam would be on a >two-piece coif). I haven't had slippage problems, but then I haven't worn >it for very long at a time. It may help that the wrap is just a bit >forward of the crown, so even though the veil weight would tend to pull it >backward, it can't slide back over the slightly larger circumference. > Do you wear this with a further veil on top, like your friend's arrangement described below? I can't picture how it covers your hairline and forehead? Jean >Hmm. Something else you might do is to fold a corner of your veil over to >make a diagonal line, like this: > > ____________________________________________________ > /| | > / | | > / | | > / | | >/________|___________________________________________________| > >...the diagonal part being the fold. > >Then wrap the folded edge around your head, crown to chin, to form your >face-framing. It will have stretch to it, being on the bias. I haven't >tried this with a long veil, but I've seen something similar work on a >friend, who makes a flawless veil-and-wimple arrangement with two circles >of linen. She folds one on the bias, puts the center under her chin, and >pulls the ends of the fold up around her head and pins them together at >the top to make a snug band around her face with the folded edge. She then >pulls the excess material on the sides up along the sides of her head and >pins them together at the back of the head and back of the neck. This >makes the wimple. The other circle she arranges on top, pinning to the >wimple. That covers the pinned parts of the wimple itself. She can do it >in a flash, since she does it all the time. (She says she used to do it >with a straight edge around her face, but found that uncomfortable because >she had to make it tight to stay put. Then she heard me lecture about use >of the bias for flexibility in certain dress constructions, and thought, >"Hey, that would work on a veil too, and give me room to move my chin.") > >If you try this with a long veil, let me know. I have a feeling I've done >it this way myself before, but it's been so long I don't remember, and I >wouldn't have given it a very long field-test myself. Most of my >veil-wrapping is for purposes of display or photos; my research focus is >on the body garments, and I only do headdresses to complete the look when >a full-body impression is necessary. I have a lot of short-haired models >:-( > >--Robin > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 16:18:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AKITRM012662 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:18:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKGjd5022104 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:16:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKGi4g048894; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:16:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKGe4g048817 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:16:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from 39jz301 ([69.195.100.245]) by fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (InterMail vM.5.01.05.12 201-253-122-126-112-20020820) with ESMTP id <20040710201356.DTFK10254.fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@39jz301> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:13:56 -0400 Message-ID: <01b101c466ba$d1059250$f564c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407081703.i68H3GRB030284@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:16:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep04-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [69.195.100.245] using ID at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:13:56 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > Could it be the images from Alphonso's book of Chess in which the women appear > to be wearing some sort of corset under some sort of sideless surcoat? > > Jerusha (who is *real* intrigued by those images) The best thing about these images is that we actually have extant garments from this exact period from the royal tombs at Las Huelgas in Spain. I reconstructed the garments from the dimensions given in the Spanish-language publication that talks about the various clothing articles. The surcote is indeed a sort of sideless surcote--but VERY wide, with side holes that go much deeper than the Northern European sort, and with the front panel much more narrow than the Northern European sort. It also predates the Northern European examples by about 75 years to a century. The laced thingie is a side-laced dress, with no sleeves. It only laces on the one side, and is very narrow and very long. Both it and the surcote were made of silk of a substantial weight. They didn't find the undergarment, but if the examples in the Book of Chess are correct, there was probably an undertunic worn under this--usually white, perhaps linen. I will see if I can find the reference. If Danielle is lurking out there, maybe she can post it--it was her book :-) Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 16:26:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AKQnRM012673 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:26:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKOvd5022550 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:24:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKOt4g053221; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:24:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web01-imail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (web01-imail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.75]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKOr4g053125 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:24:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from 39jz301 ([69.195.100.245]) by web01-imail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (InterMail vM.5.01.05.12 201-253-122-126-112-20020820) with ESMTP id <20040710202329.KKIU407524.web01-imail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@39jz301> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:23:29 -0400 Message-ID: <022101c466bb$f6b2d890$f564c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] EarlyMedievalCorsets???? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:24:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at web01-imail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [69.195.100.245] using ID at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:23:29 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > Actually, the type of headdress worn with this Spanish outfit is an odd one (the sideless surcoated figures are Spanish the others are supposed to be Moorish IIRC). The Spanish headdress reminds me a bit of the double crown of pharonic Egypt...which might be where they got the idea from...but with the Spanish one never knows... That's what I get from posting before catching up. Danielle--do you have the title of that book we looked at with all the cool Spanish stuff (I'd like to order it, anyway...)? I tried one of the Spanish women's hats when I made the rest of the outfit (which I tended to later refer to as the "Spanish Atrocity" because I made it out of a real riot of coloured materials.) I wore it to an SCA event, and was immediately asked whether I was a bishop :-) Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 16:28:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AKSgRM012677 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:28:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKQrd5022674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:26:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKQp4g054181; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:26:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKPx4g053726 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:25:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BjOQ0-000HPu-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:25:56 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:24:43 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: Terms Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails References: <20040710040243.55185.qmail@web51301.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote > >On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Ann Catelli wrote: > >> This difference in nomenclature has hit me before: >> >> > Ah. I consider "wimple" as meaning "under the chin," >> > so I didn't picture >> > something that would go from forehead to nape. >> > Robin N >> >> I've seen wimple stated with the greatest of firmness as the >> around-the-throat head drapery & as the over-the-head drapery bit. > >Heh -- I was thinking of both together, not one or the other. The >dictionary I have at hand defines "wimple" as the combination of both -- >that is, a cloth covering worn over the head *and* around the neck and >chin. I believe that fits with the current usage (as in a nun's wimple, >which is an all-in-one unit, I think). And when I edited an article on >Anglo-Saxon costume not long ago, the author (who is reliable when it >comes to terminology for her period) was adamant about using the word >"wimple" for a one-piece headdress that covers the chin as well as the >head, and she distinguished that from a head-wrap. > >On the other hand, I've also heard "wimple" to describe only the >chin-covering, with the "veil" separate -- as "veil and wimple." That >makes more sense for periods in which the arrangement consisted of two >pieces (which, I think, might not have been the case in Anglo-Saxon). >Still, I wonder if the phrase "veil and wimple" is really a period phrase >(which would indicate two parts of a combo) or whether it's just something >used by costume authors. > >(I've never heard the word used to mean something that didn't involve a >neck covering, though, which goes back to my original comment.) > >None of this tells us how the word was used in period, of course. It may >have varied, as the types of head/neck coverings varied. For instance, >since the two-piece arrangement apparently came later than the one-piece >version, it's quite conceivable that the word "wimple" might have gone >from meaning a one-piece covering to one part of a two-piece covering. This is the problem in going from one period re-enactment to another. People who do 14th or 15th century tend to use "wimple" to mean specifically the separate piece going under the chin, while Saxon and Norman re-enactors use it for the whole one-piece item. I generally use "headrail" for a big enveloping wrappy thing, "veil" for something that mainly just goes on top of your head and down the back (although you might loosely drape the end round the front, like a scarf) and "wimple" for a separate piece under the chin. Of course we also get barbette (with filet) and barbe, the long pleated thing that seems to attach directly to the chin and is worn by widows in the 16th century (Think "Marie Reine d'Ecosse en deuil blanche") Jean >However, I don't know offhand in which periods the word "wimple" was >current and how it was used (without looking it up in the MED as well as >the OED; I have the latter here, but I'm too lazy tonight to haul it out). >But the quotes are likely not to tell us much; I can think offhand of one >reference from Chaucer to the Wyf of Bath being "wimpled well," but that >doesn't tell us what parts were covered by the wimple. > >--Robin > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 16:40:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AKetRM012775 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:40:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKcId5023324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:38:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKbg4g059697; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:37:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKbe4g059655 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:37:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28585 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:41:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:41:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails In-Reply-To: <3AS7mpEH3E8AJwk2@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Jean Waddie wrote: > Do you wear this with a further veil on top, like your friend's > arrangement described below? I can't picture how it covers your > hairline and forehead? I had to really stop and think about this -- it's been a while since I've had to do it, and I think I do it a little differently each time. If I have a very long wrap, it goes around again, further forward the next time. But I think I've also done something else at times: Instead of starting with the corner exactly at the top of the head, bring it a bit to one side (so it's starting at the temple and going over the crown) and forward, but carry the stress in a "band" over the crown / under the chin when you bring it around and pin it. This leaves a little flap over the forehead but still creates the firm band effect. And, as I think about it, also takes the band slightly off-grain, which makes it more flexible. But I'm not the best person to ask about this, because I don't do it frequently and haven't for a while. I guess my point is that I've made it work by futzing around in front of a mirror, with a period picture in front of me. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 16:46:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AKkBRM012785 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:46:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKiMd5023727 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:44:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKiK4g063194; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:44:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AKiF4g063131 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:44:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28620 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:48:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:48:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] EarlyMedievalCorsets???? In-Reply-To: <022101c466bb$f6b2d890$f564c345@39jz301> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > That's what I get from posting before catching up. Danielle--do you > have the title of that book we looked at with all the cool Spanish > stuff (I'd like to order it, anyway...)? If it's the one we've been talking about, with the pictures of the grave garments, I've just dug it out: "Museo de Telas Medievales, Monasterio de Santa Maria la Real de Huelgas Burgos," Concha Herrero Carretero. Madrid: Patrimonio Nacional, 1988. ISBN 84-7120-127-5. Why do I even own this book? I don't do Spanish, I don't read Spanish, and there are loads of other books I need more. (But no, I'm not selling it!) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 17:11:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ALBlRM012934 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:11:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AL8Zd5025452 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:08:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AL8W4g076319; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:08:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AL8T4g076217 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:08:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bed8.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.216]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 4185747FE3F for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:08:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003301c466c2$192fad20$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c46689$c69961b0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] wheel farthingale. Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:08:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear Saragrace. I have in the last time come to the conclution, that what we call a wheelfarthingale, more would be apropriate to use for the time just after Elizabeth. When Anne of Denmak became queen. Most of her dresses, has the full cirkle wheel farthingale. Also portraits in Denmark from the time uses the full cirkle after 1603. So saragrace it would be best in my point of wiev to flatten the cirlke in the front, and make the cirkle oval. Did you see the costumes that Nihelenia from England made? She made some wheelfarthingales. She have not her pictures on the net anymore, but if you would like, i could send you her pictures, i copyed them. They could be very usefull for you! At least interesting. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 4:25 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] wheel farthingale. > > I think I got everything you said except this part. > > >> it could press down the farthingale in the front, > >and make the space from the cirkle to the waist smaller. > > Do you have QEWU Bjrane? On page 62, there are two portraits pertinant to > the discussion. 106 pretty clearly shows a full circle. What do you think > about 107. Do you think the skirt is a full circle and that the pressure on > the front causes the back of the skirt to rise so high? Or is the > perspective a little off and the front is really flat? > > Here is another which is more flat fronted I think. > http://www.folger.edu/public/exhibit/elizabeth/vandepasse.asp I wonder if > the there is much of the farthingale in front at all. I am also becoming > more convinced that the height in the back is pretty much an illusion. I > can see that the farthingale itself might need to be sloped a bit so the > final skirt doesn't droop in the back. If you cover the front of the gown > in the above image at the natural waist, the back doesn't look so high. > > Just skimming through QEWU, I see that very few of the gowns are full > circles. Here is one example tough: > http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/portrait.asp?mkey=mw07094 > > Most appear to flatten in front which is how I think I will end up going. I > think I like the softer look too. > > Any and all help is appreciated. I will take a picture today...mind you it > is VERY rough...but the process might be interesting to some. > > > Sg > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 17:29:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ALTORM012998 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:29:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ALSnd5026685 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:28:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ALSl4g086650; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:28:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ALSi4g086606 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:28:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6ALxn5c054916 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:59:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6ALxnpc054915 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:59:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:59:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407102159.i6ALxnpc054915@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: <01b101c466ba$d1059250$f564c345@39jz301> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > The best thing about these images is that we actually have extant garments > from this exact period from the royal tombs at Las Huelgas in Spain. I > reconstructed the garments from the dimensions given in the Spanish-language > publication that talks about the various clothing articles. Hmmm, that sounds like something I want to look at very much. Do you have a title? > > The surcote is indeed a sort of sideless surcote--but VERY wide, with side > holes that go much deeper than the Northern European sort, and with the > front panel much more narrow than the Northern European sort. It also > predates the Northern European examples by about 75 years to a century. > > The laced thingie is a side-laced dress, with no sleeves. It only laces on > the one side, and is very narrow and very long. Both it and the surcote > were made of silk of a substantial weight. They didn't find the > undergarment, but if the examples in the Book of Chess are correct, there > was probably an undertunic worn under this--usually white, perhaps linen. >From the images it looks like the "side-laced dress" only goes up to the arm-pits -- so not only is it sleeveless, it is strapless as well (rather like the Bohemian Bathing Beauties). -- I say this because in several of the images, the laced part is red -- and it goes to the armpits, and then the upper chest and arms are shown in white. Is this how you remember it from the book? Thanks sooo much for the information! Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 17:31:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ALVERM013023 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:31:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ALUid5026796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:30:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ALUh4g087717; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:30:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ALUQ4g087500 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:30:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6AM1V5c054928 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:01:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6AM1VZL054927 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:01:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407102201.i6AM1VZL054927@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: X-DCC-COLLEGEOFNEWCALEDONIA-Metrics: net.indra.com 1189; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT: JOhannes berries X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Quick question for folks in Germany -- my son just got back from a month in Statdhagen raving about "Johannes berries" (small, round and red). Does anybody have any clue what those are? thanks, Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 17:34:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ALYWRM013034 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:34:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ALWnd5026908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:32:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ALWm4g088766; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:32:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ALWI4g088493 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 15:32:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6AM3M5c054941 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:03:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6AM3MWR054940 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:03:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407102203.i6AM3MWR054940@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] EarlyMedievalCorsets???? In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > > > That's what I get from posting before catching up. Danielle--do you > > have the title of that book we looked at with all the cool Spanish > > stuff (I'd like to order it, anyway...)? > > If it's the one we've been talking about, with the pictures of the grave > garments, I've just dug it out: > > "Museo de Telas Medievales, Monasterio de Santa Maria la Real de Huelgas > Burgos," Concha Herrero Carretero. Madrid: Patrimonio Nacional, 1988. ISBN > 84-7120-127-5. Ah. ILL here I come! My university library doesn't have this book. Thanks! Jerusha (who does *bad* spanish) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:12:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AMCVRM013179 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:12:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMBpd5029111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:11:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMBl4g009544; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:11:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMBj4g009472 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:11:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004071022114001500hv3ome>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:11:40 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:10:39 -0400 From: Lauren Walker To: h-costume Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6AMBj4g009472 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Historic ironing? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The more sewing I do, the more I end up leaving my ironing board in place (as the sewing room is the dining room, oh very nice for the décor!) because it helps so much to be able to press a seam here and there as I work. I know we sometimes underestimate the proportion of 18th century sewing that was done by professionals rather than at home -- do we know if professional dressmakers and tailors had an iron hotted up all the time to do this? (Seems like something somebody with a Diderot at hand could check -- I haven't got access to one at present.) My very mother, who, (contrary to speculation on my own very great age) actually was born 1/4 of the way into the 20th century, remembers the pre-electric iron as an, ahem, iron thing you heated on the stove, and that a great convenience was to have two so one could be heating whilst she ironed with the other (sort of like having two batteries for the cordless screwdriver today!) So I am picturing an 18th century iron as also needing external heat, possibly taking up space, and being slightly hazardous. A recent discussion on another list, about pressing hems and seam allowances on an 18th C embroidered waistcoat, has caused me to wonder where the iron was. That is, would such a waistcoat have been sewn by a professional? I know the embroideries were professional work, and, in terms of America, often imported as shaped pieces, ready to be made up to fit. But who were the pieces then assembled by? Would such a waistcoat be such an expensive item that even if made up at home, it would be a home with servants and a set aside laundry area, so dashing in for a bit of seam-pressing would be trivial? In a smaller household, in which the wife/mother would be doing the sewing, was the iron hotted up on mending day? Would such sewing have been done in the kitchen, to be near the iron? Would one sew as far as one could and then do a round of pressing? I'm sorry if these questions seem dumb and picky -- I'm just trying to get a feel for how this sewing was done in everyday life. Was there an iron on the fire, so to speak, all the time? Do we find lots of flatiron artifacts? Thanks for entertaining these queries, Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:40:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AMefRM013324 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:40:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMe6d5000928 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:40:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMe24g024815; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:40:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMdv4g024748 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:39:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29248 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:43:55 -0500 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:43:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? In-Reply-To: <200407102159.i6ALxnpc054915@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > >From the images it looks like the "side-laced dress" only goes up to > the arm-pits -- so not only is it sleeveless, it is strapless as well > (rather like the Bohemian Bathing Beauties). -- I say this because in > several of the images, the laced part is red -- and it goes to the > armpits, and then the upper chest and arms are shown in white. Is > this how you remember it from the book? In the book, the one side-laced dress goes up to the neck, but the armholes are deeply cut in. It's conceivable that in the artwork, the neck part of the dress is hidden behind the sideless surcote that goes over it. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:45:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AMjSRM013346 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:45:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMgNd5001170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:42:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMgM4g026172; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:42:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMeG4g024903 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:40:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004071022401001500hrspne>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:40:10 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:39:10 -0400 From: Lauren Walker To: h-costume Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Veils and headrails and wimples, oh my! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you everyone for the great discussion of headwear! Thank you Jean for the promised article -- please do send it! Thank you Robin for the several options and the idea about using bias and pins! Thank you Helen for the referral to the hijab page! All is wonderful! How long are you all thinking an Anglo-Saxon woman's veil might run, then? If 24-ish inches wide, are we thinking like 3 feet long or like 6 feet long? Thanks again! I am off to my other desk now to actually map out some research I need to do. Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:45:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AMjXRM013349 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:45:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMgWd5001210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:42:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMgV4g026266; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:42:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMeI4g024981 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:40:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cahuff@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2inik09.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.80.9] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjQW1-0004w8-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:40:17 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200407101326.i6ADQO4i025505@net.indra.com> References: <200407101326.i6ADQO4i025505@net.indra.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:40:11 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: fastusminimus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 503 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 7:26 AM -0600 7/10/04, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: >I am stretching my poor battered brain trying to figure out how one >would weave fabric on the straight that looks like plaid on the bias. >ouch > >Any weavers out there? Turn the loom 45 degrees to the left (to the right won't work!)..... Ducking & running!!! Ta Carol -- Creative Clutter is Better Than Idle Neatness! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:49:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AMnqRM013358 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:49:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMkqd5001694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:46:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMkp4g028581; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:46:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMhN4g026730 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:43:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004071022431801400lhthre>; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:43:18 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:42:18 -0400 From: Lauren Walker To: h-costume Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] PS: What's UNDER headrails? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Jean's note raised an interesting question, though -- do we know if women were wearing things under their headrails? It sure would help the whole pinning thing, especially until my hair grows long again. I was just thinking that men in the middle ages largely wore coifs, and in later periods women are wearing caps that are not un-coif-like though they get much rufflier by the end. I have often wondered if the answer to head-draping mightn't be to have some kind of cap underneath. But you sure don't see any of it in the paintings I've seen. Are there any thoughts on this? Thank you again, Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:53:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AMrXRM013406 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:53:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMpnd5002525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:51:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMpm4g031186; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:51:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.73]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMpj4g031114 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:51:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from 39jz301 ([69.195.100.245]) by fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (InterMail vM.5.01.05.12 201-253-122-126-112-20020820) with ESMTP id <20040710225034.QWJY148077.fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@39jz301> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:50:34 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c466d0$7a647090$f564c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] EarlyMedievalCorsets???? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:51:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [69.195.100.245] using ID at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:50:34 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > "Museo de Telas Medievales, Monasterio de Santa Maria la Real de Huelgas > Burgos," Concha Herrero Carretero. Madrid: Patrimonio Nacional, 1988. ISBN > 84-7120-127-5. > > Why do I even own this book? I don't do Spanish, I don't read Spanish, and > there are loads of other books I need more. (But no, I'm not selling it!) That's the one. It does have some lovely full-colour plates and diagrams that can be figured out with a dictionary. Also, since I read French and Latin, I found I could at least get the gist of a lot of the Spanish. Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 18:58:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AMwoRM013469 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:58:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMtmd5002778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:55:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMtk4g033384; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:55:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.86.73]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AMth4g033320 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:55:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from 39jz301 ([69.195.100.245]) by fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (InterMail vM.5.01.05.12 201-253-122-126-112-20020820) with ESMTP id <20040710225433.QWPG148077.fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@39jz301> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:54:33 -0400 Message-ID: <003101c466d1$08c0fd40$f564c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407102159.i6ALxnpc054915@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Early Medieval Corsets???? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:55:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH LOGIN at fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com from [69.195.100.245] using ID at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:54:33 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > >From the images it looks like the "side-laced dress" only goes up to the > arm-pits -- so not only is it sleeveless, it is strapless as well (rather > like the Bohemian Bathing Beauties). -- I say this because in several of > the images, the laced part is red -- and it goes to the armpits, and then > the upper chest and arms are shown in white. Is this how you remember it > from the book? Nope, it is just sleeveless, but the surcote does cover the shoulders and the dress completely. So when you see it from the side, you only see the laced dress poking out under the arm, and the shoulders are covered by the surcote. The funkiest thing about this garment is that it only laces on ONE side. Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 19:05:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6AN5lRM013492 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:05:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AN2fd5003112 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:02:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6AN2e4g037043; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:02:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51308.mail.yahoo.com (web51308.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6AN2b4g036986 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:02:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040710230231.62798.qmail@web51308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.237.35.84] by web51308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:02:31 PDT Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:02:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli Subject: Re: [h-cost] Veils and headrails and wimples, oh my! To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --- Lauren Walker wrote: > How long are you all thinking an Anglo-Saxon woman's > veil might run, then? > If 24-ish inches wide, are we thinking like 3 feet > long or like 6 feet long? > Lauren For a headrail, 5 feet (150 cm) would be a minimum & more could be accomodated easily. Two feet wide (60 cm) sounds good or even a bit generous. With nice lightweight linen any extra width will just translate to luxury. I would not recommend silk unless hundreds of pins are conveniently place to hold it on--all my silk headscarves fall off like nobody's business. Ann in CT __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 19:53:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ANrNRM013846 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:53:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ANpVd5005617 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:51:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ANpO4g062561; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:51:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ens9.eatel.net (ens9.eatel.net [209.124.203.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6ANpM4g062445 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:51:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mamarose@eatel.net) Received: (qmail 7938 invoked by uid 89); 10 Jul 2004 23:48:05 -0000 Received: from ip-209-124-255-176.dynamic.eatel.net (HELO eatel.net) (209.124.255.176) by 0 with SMTP; 10 Jul 2004 23:48:05 -0000 Message-ID: <40F09C39.8080908@eatel.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:47:37 -0700 From: Margaret User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? References: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >My very mother, who, (contrary to speculation on my own very great age) >actually was born 1/4 of the way into the 20th century, remembers the >pre-electric iron as an, ahem, iron thing you heated on the stove, and that >a great convenience was to have two so one could be heating whilst she >ironed with the other (sort of like having two batteries for the cordless >screwdriver today!) So I am picturing an 18th century iron as also needing >external heat, possibly taking up space, and being slightly hazardous. > I don't know about pressing while you are sewing, but I do know something about old irons. My parents have a collection of the silly things, and they are all on bookcases or on stair railings where they can fall down on your head if you hit them just right. You can find a good one at http://tinyurl.com/2byxh It looks like it's got a changable base, so one would be heating up on the stove while you iron with the other. My mom has several like that, plus some really neat ones that you put hot coals in to heat it up and then iron with it. Guarantee at least one burn per ironing session. Margaret Rose -- May you have the hindsight to know where you've been, the foresight to know where your going and the insight to know when you've gone to far. -- Irish Toast _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 20:11:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B0B3RM013983 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:11:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B09Hd5006852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:09:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B09E4g071785; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:09:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B09A4h071756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:09:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6B0EXnB013791 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:14:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i6B0EXDA013790 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:14:33 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris:was Early Medieval Corsets???? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:14:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000001c464f3$b1888040$6a01a8c0@SG01> <563E88E0-D0F0-11D8-8D5E-000D9353A386@modehistorique.com> In-Reply-To: <563E88E0-D0F0-11D8-8D5E-000D9353A386@modehistorique.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407102014.33285.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 08 July 2004 11:06 am, sarah lorraine wrote: > I love Norris' Tudor Costume & Fashion book. No, it's not primary or > even secondary source material (he's particularly bad about quoting > sources) but his eye is still good and his theories on things such as > French Hoods are far better than the majority of modern assumptions > when put to the test. I have plenty of more recently published costume > overview books that make all the same mistakes that we accuse Norris > of, when we expect them to know better. The more modern books probably are using Norris as a source. :-( What I like best about Norris's TC&F is that he tried to show material that was not purely nobles' costume. Unfortunately, his failure to give sources kills a lot of my joy in that.... -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 20:18:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B0IYRM014077 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:18:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0Gmd5007189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:16:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0Gk4g075460; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:16:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0Gi4g075377 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:16:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004071100163801500huctue>; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:16:38 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:15:37 -0400 From: Lauren Walker To: h-costume Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Sorry -- I missed the beginning of this strand and can't seem to find it, but someone's asking if a plaid can be woven diagonally. I'm just curious -- um, how PLAID is it? There are a lot of diamond twills that give a sort of diagonal-square look, but I don't think they'd look truly plaid (modern sense of plaid, multi-color unbalanced check) because, if this makes sense, the colors still change at right angles. If it's truly plaid and truly woven diagonally, it would have to be pretty darn complex. I would think easier to do as a print. Or as some variant on finger-loop weaving or multi-strand braiding, which can give you a diagonal plaid, come to think of it, because the threads are all diagonal to the edges. Sorry; this is not really an answer -- you've just got me thinking about it. Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 20:26:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B0QvRM014116 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:26:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0Nxd5007551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:23:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0Nv4g079108; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:23:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0Nu4g079053 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:23:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.142.2def42ae (18707) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:23:45 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <142.2def42ae.2e21e291@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:23:45 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I, too, have wondered if seams were always pressed open--I suspect not, but with little evidence for that. I think the embroidered waistcoat pieces were sometimes home sew, and sometimes made by a tailor--there was still some fit involved, after, all, and that is what you needed a professional for. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 20:33:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B0XWRM014136 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:33:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0Vjd5007892 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:31:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0Vh4g082979; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:31:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0Vf4g082919 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:31:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I0N0044GW4OUM@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I0N00M2AW4O4D@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:31:36 -0400 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:31:36 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <709ca770c5a3.70c5a3709ca7@direcway.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Johannes berries X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Jerusha, those are Red Currants (Cassis). I vividly remember the hedge we had around the yard of the house we moved from when I was 4. We had a mixed hedge of red currants and gooseberries right by the from gate. Yum! Was he in Stadthagen in Lower Saxony? I grew up in Hannover. I hope he enjoyed his stay and got to see the country a bit. Bettina Message: 11 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:01:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Subject: [h-cost] OT: JOhannes berries To: h-costume@indra.com Message-ID: <200407102201.i6AM1VZL054927@sabre.goldsword.com> Quick question for folks in Germany -- my son just got back from a month in Statdhagen raving about "Johannes berries" (small, round and red). Does anybody have any clue what those are? thanks, Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 20:40:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B0eHRM014166 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:40:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0dkd5008264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:39:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0dj4g086942; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:39:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0dg4h086905 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:39:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6B0betY017053 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:37:40 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F08C4C.1000907@thibault.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:39:40 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Veils and headrails and wimples, oh my! References: <20040710230231.62798.qmail@web51308.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040710230231.62798.qmail@web51308.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Several folks I know have had excellent success with "hair taping" and then pinning veils to that. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Do it, Deligate it, or Drop it. -- vew _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 20:53:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B0rbRM014317 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:53:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0qld5008878 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:52:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0qi4g093588; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:52:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B0qg4g093554 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:52:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-67-101-145-205.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([67.101.145.205] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjSa8-0006g8-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:52:40 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000e01c46681$3b361170$0300a8c0@genteelarts> References: <000e01c46681$3b361170$0300a8c0@genteelarts> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:47:59 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: RE: [h-cost] Spanish costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6B0qg4g093554 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 9:24 AM -0400 7/10/04, Carolann Schmitt wrote: > >>I would love to see this when you get home!!! Cutting this garment on the >>bias wastes an enormous amount of fabric, which is not at all logical. >>Evidence that it was woven this way would help it all make sense. > >>Grace/Jessamyn     > >This is not my period of interest, but the comment about bias wasting fabric >caught my eye. I agree that cutting the entire piece on the bias would not >be an economical use of fabric. However, in the mid-19th century garment >pieces - especially sleeves - and various trimmings are frequently cut on >the bias. Examination of original garments shows that the bias is usually >pieced, with patterns and/or plaids carefully matched. From experience, I >can cut very large garment sections using no more and occasionally less >fabric than if I cut it on the straight grain. And I've frequently found >piecing on other garments and garment sections cut on the grain. > >Is piecing not a common technique during this period? > I've been meaning to get out some drafting paper and play around with the questions. Because it seems to me that if you're working from a "modified geometric cut" (i.e., a pattern that's based on the geometric rectangles-triangles-trapezoids approach of early medieval cuts, with perhaps a little added shaping), and if you have no compunction about doing a bit of piecing -- especially selvedge-to-selvedge piecing, then it seems to me that you may be able to get a bias-cut garment out of pretty close to the same yardage as a straight-grain garment. But, as I say, I want to get out some graph paper and do the geometry before claiming this with a stronger level of confidence. Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 21:05:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B15gRM014384 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:05:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B13jd5009480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:03:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B13g4g099270; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:03:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.pacifier.net (smtp1.pacifier.net [64.255.237.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B13Y4g099167 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:03:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kat@grendal.rain.com) Received: from KATHOUSE (ip224.128.du.eli.iinet.com [67.136.128.224]) by smtp1.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08F856FE46 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:03:32 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:03:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Veils and headrails and wimples, oh my! Message-ID: <40F02F73.13537.1082C9EC@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <40F08C4C.1000907@thibault.org> References: <20040710230231.62798.qmail@web51308.mail.yahoo.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Several folks I know have had excellent success with "hair taping" and > then pinning veils to that. I've had good luck with using 2 bobby pins in an X formation, to which I then pin the veil. The bobby pins work better in that formation than a single one does. (I think that's why French Rolls stay better if the pins are put in X fashion than if they are just put in parallel.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 21:07:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B17RRM014395 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:07:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B15gd5009588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:05:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B15f4g000436; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:05:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B14J4g099525 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:04:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lizyoung@fenris.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c-24-7-132-137.client.comcast.net[24.7.132.137]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2004071101041401300j26rne>; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:04:14 +0000 Message-ID: <40F0920D.8080708@fenris.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:04:13 -0700 From: Elizabeth Young User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 503 References: <200407101326.i6ADQO4i025505@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO gaaaah liz young fastusminimus wrote: > At 7:26 AM -0600 7/10/04, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > >> I am stretching my poor battered brain trying to figure out how one >> would weave fabric on the straight that looks like plaid on the bias. >> ouch >> >> Any weavers out there? > > > > Turn the loom 45 degrees to the left (to the right won't work!)..... > > > > > > Ducking & running!!! > > Ta > Carol _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 23:14:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B3EmRM015003 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:14:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B3Bgd5016520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:11:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B3Bb4g063832; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:11:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.netspace.net.au (thunder.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B3BZ4g063741 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:11:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from stilskin@netspace.net.au) Received: from localhost (sprinkle.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.77]) by mail.netspace.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3AA42816 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:11:23 +1000 (EST) Received: from dialup-a1-404.Melbourne.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-404.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.113.247.150]) by webmail.netspace.net.au (IMP) with HTTP for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:11:23 +1000 Message-ID: <1089515483.40f0afdb8206b@webmail.netspace.net.au> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:11:23 +1000 From: stilskin@netspace.net.au To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -- do we know if professional > dressmakers and tailors had an iron hotted up all the time Pure supposition here but logical supposition even for me on a Sunday morning (okay, afternoon but I slept in): The two common types of iron I know of before electric ones came about were: Solid iron wedges. Some had fixed handles and some had interchangeable handles so that one iron could be warming while another was in use; and Hollow irons that could be filled with hot coals (these also make great doorstops in 21st Century homes). Another common thing in ye olden dayes was the combustion/wood burner stove that was usually lit early morning and left to burn all day for cooking, and hot water. Pot belly stoves were also common. It seems logical that an iron could be kept warm all day in a building fitted out with one of these. If the above supposition is right, I wonder how comfortable things were in summer months, -C. ------------------------------------------------------------ This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 23:22:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B3MYRM015074 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:22:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B3Kid5017102 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:20:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B3Kf4g068835; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:20:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B3Kd4g068797 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:20:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6B3pk5c057354 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:51:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6B3pko4057353 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:51:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407110351.i6B3pko4057353@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Johannes berries In-Reply-To: <709ca770c5a3.70c5a3709ca7@direcway.com> Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO > Jerusha, > > those are Red Currants (Cassis). I vividly remember the hedge we had around the yard of the house we moved from when I was 4. We had a mixed hedge of red currants and gooseberries right by the from gate. Yum! Thanks! > > Was he in Stadthagen in Lower Saxony? I grew up in Hannover. I hope he enjoyed his stay and got to see the country a bit. Yep -- that's the Stadthagen. The family he was staying with actually lived in "Lowenhagen" (and I have no clue if I spelled that correctly or not.) Right now, he misses the currant and the cherries that grew in the yard. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 10 23:38:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B3cfRM015118 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:38:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B3asd5018182 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:36:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B3aq4g077110; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:36:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B3ao4g077057 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:36:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004071103364401400lig14e>; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:36:44 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:35:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1089515483.40f0afdb8206b@webmail.netspace.net.au> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks for your thoughts, but I was really thinking about a period somewhat before the stove was in widespread use -- heating stoves were available from about the 1720s, but cookstoves are really a 19th century arrival, and were not by any means universally used until well after mid-century. In the 18th century, virtually all cooking was hearth-cooking, done in an open fireplace, and that's where my question arose -- did you stick an iron in the coals or what? Thanks again! Lauren > From: stilskin@netspace.net.au > > -- do we know if professional >> dressmakers and tailors had an iron hotted up all the time > > > Another common thing in ye olden dayes was the combustion/wood burner stove > that was usually lit early morning and left to burn all day for cooking, and > hot water. Pot belly stoves were also common. It seems logical that an iron > could be kept warm all day in a building fitted out with one of these. > > If the above supposition is right, I wonder how comfortable things were in > summer months, > > -C. > > > - _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 00:39:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B4dKRM015452 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:39:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B4bRd5021334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:37:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B4bO4g008056; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:37:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B4bJ4g008023 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:37:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from r.carnegie@verizon.net) Received: from Fiona ([207.68.61.153]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040711043718.GPGM6671.out003.verizon.net@Fiona> for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:37:18 -0500 From: "Ron Carnegie" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Historic ironing? Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:37:15 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [207.68.61.153] at Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:37:16 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Strictly speaking down hearth cooking is done on the hearth, the brick area before the fireplace rather than in the fireplace and 18th century Irons work the same way. There are two main styles of 18th century Iron that I am familiar with (and have used). The first is a simple cast iron affair that is heated on a trivet over coals. The second type is the box iron. This has iron slugs that are heated separately and fit into the hollow iron to use. This allows you to keep ironing over a longer period of time by alternating the slugs between the coals and the iron. I usually heated the slugs up on a trivet as well, but you could put them directly in the coals. You don't want to do that with the iron itself as it will become sooty and make a mess of your cloth! I remain, Ron Carnegie > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Lauren Walker > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 10:36 PM > To: Historical Costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? > > > Thanks for your thoughts, but I was really thinking about a > period somewhat > before the stove was in widespread use -- heating stoves were > available from > about the 1720s, but cookstoves are really a 19th century > arrival, and were > not by any means universally used until well after mid-century. > In the 18th > century, virtually all cooking was hearth-cooking, done in an open > fireplace, and that's where my question arose -- did you stick an iron in > the coals or what? > Thanks again! > Lauren > > > > From: stilskin@netspace.net.au > > > > > -- do we know if professional > >> dressmakers and tailors had an iron hotted up all the time > > > > > > Another common thing in ye olden dayes was the combustion/wood > burner stove > > that was usually lit early morning and left to burn all day for > cooking, and > > hot water. Pot belly stoves were also common. It seems logical > that an iron > > could be kept warm all day in a building fitted out with one of these. > > > > If the above supposition is right, I wonder how comfortable > things were in > > summer months, > > > > -C. > > > > > > - > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 00:47:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B4lTRM015552 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:47:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B4jgd5021674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:45:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B4je4g012289; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:45:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B4jb4h012249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:45:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-198.sonic.net [209.148.112.198]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6B4jZr4026466 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:45:36 -0700 Message-ID: <40F0C71E.3090108@lavoltapress.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:50:38 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] For those who want to order fake diamond jewelry wholesale X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO For cheap rhinestone glitz: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/rhinestonejewelry/neccolwhol.html Prices are very reasonable, quantities minimal, but does anyone actually carry these retail? Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming Two new books of 1870s and 1880s patterns! http://www.lavoltapress.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 01:24:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B5ODRM015757 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:24:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B5MLd5023197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:22:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B5MJ4g030383; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:22:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B5MH4h030346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:22:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-198.sonic.net [209.148.112.198]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6B5M21h021425 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:22:13 -0700 Message-ID: <40F0CFA5.7070102@lavoltapress.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:27:01 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] And here's the same jewelry marked up to retail X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://number1-tiaras-crowns.com/neccolwhol.html Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming Two new books of 1870s and 1880s patterns! http://www.lavoltapress.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 02:03:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B63aRM015972 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:03:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B61dd5024683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:01:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B61Z4g048981; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:01:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav151.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.181]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B61X4g048927 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:01:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:01:27 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav151.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:01:27 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "h-costume_indra_com" Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:01:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:01:26 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jul 2004 06:01:27.0589 (UTC) FILETIME=[81117550:01C4670C] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6B63aRM015972 Status: RO A while back, we were talking about sleeveless shifts and I brought up one I had a picture of in a book. Well, I just found it on the Internet, although you'll need directions to get there - it won't just make a easy link. The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, mostly from Austria or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting REALonline, which will open another window. Under Kataloge, select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A list of names appears, starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type in "Medea" and hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex illustrating the story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the shift about 10 down. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 02:43:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B6h5RM016090 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:43:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B6fHd5026861 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:41:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B6fC4g067702; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:41:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B6fA4g067683 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 00:41:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3933F26847 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:41:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (unknown [64.85.215.155]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C539FD4A3 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:41:05 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Johannes berries Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:41:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <200407102201.i6AM1VZL054927@sabre.goldsword.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- Quick question for folks in Germany -- my son just got back from a month in Statdhagen raving about "Johannes berries" (small, round and red). Does anybody have any clue what those are? thanks, Jerusha ~~~~~~~~~~ I have not heard the name but it could be: Lingonberries Cranberries (but I am sure he would know these) Red Currants Buckthorn Serviceberries (though I think this is indigenous to the US) Goumis (indig to Ukraine) De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 03:16:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B7GcRM016264 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:16:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B7Esd5028523 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:14:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B7Ep4g084664; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:14:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41507.mail.yahoo.com (web41507.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6B7Em4g084598 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:14:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040711071442.79451.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [193.237.15.43] by web41507.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:14:42 BST Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:14:42 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Marquesate?= Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Johannes berries To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It's currants. "Schwarze Johannisbeeren" are black currants. :-) Nicole --- otsisto wrote: > -----Original Message----- > Quick question for folks in Germany -- my son just got back from a > month in Statdhagen raving about "Johannes berries" (small, round > and red). Does anybody have any clue what those are? > > thanks, > Jerusha > ~~~~~~~~~~ > I have not heard the name but it could be: > Lingonberries > Cranberries (but I am sure he would know these) > Red Currants > Buckthorn > Serviceberries (though I think this is indigenous to the US) > Goumis (indig to Ukraine) > > De > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 03:22:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B7McRM016302 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:22:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B7Lwd5028843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:21:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B7Lv4g087753; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:21:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B7Ln4g087636 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:21:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694A126766 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:21:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (unknown [64.85.215.155]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5BE1CD3CF for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:21:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] And here's the same jewelry marked up to retail Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:21:58 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <40F0CFA5.7070102@lavoltapress.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO OOOO...pretty, shiny, sparklees ..... ooo...aaaahhhh...:) De The magpie emerges. :) -----Original Message----- http://number1-tiaras-crowns.com/neccolwhol.html Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming Two new books of 1870s and 1880s patterns! http://www.lavoltapress.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 03:23:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B7NrRM016313 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:23:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B7Lpd5028824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:21:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B7Lo4g087647; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:21:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B7Ln4g087627 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:21:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB8A26766 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:21:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (unknown [64.85.215.155]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id EE117D3CF for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:21:46 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Johannes berries Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:21:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oops. replied before I looked through the email on this. :P De -----Original Message----- Quick question for folks in Germany -- my son just got back from a month in Statdhagen raving about "Johannes berries" (small, round and red). Does anybody have any clue what those are? thanks, Jerusha ~~~~~~~~~~ I have not heard the name but it could be: Lingonberries Cranberries (but I am sure he would know these) Red Currants Buckthorn Serviceberries (though I think this is indigenous to the US) Goumis (indig to Ukraine) De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 04:05:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6B85YRM016803 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:05:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B84xd5000729 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:05:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B84u4g006645; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:04:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from www6.plugit.com (www6.plugit.com [66.210.223.2] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6B84r4g006586 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 02:04:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penny@costumegallery.com) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A3DA46B00E2; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:01:30 -0500 Received: from MOM [69.241.150.7] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A3C38CB0196; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:01:07 -0500 Message-ID: <000901c4671d$a96704f0$0200a8c0@MOM> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:04:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by ElectroSHIELD (www.plugit.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] House of Worth X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6B85YRM016803 Status: RO Does anyone know when the House of Worth went out of business? I have documentation that his sons passed away in 1924 & 1926. Did the design house continue on business after the sons deaths? Or did it close immediately? I do recall a few years ago on h-costume, someone mentioned that the old building, where the Worth business was in Paris, was going to be torn down at the time. The list member was hoping someone had an idea of how to save the building. Does anyone know if the building was actually destroyed? Penny E. Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 07:28:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BBSoRM029826 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:28:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BBNHd5008986 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:23:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BBN44g095867; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:23:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BBN14g095785 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:23:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from PruWilliam@aol.com) Received: from PruWilliam@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.36.5cbeec44 (16335) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:22:50 -0400 (EDT) From: PruWilliam@aol.com Message-ID: <36.5cbeec44.2e227d09@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:22:49 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 506 smoothing irons X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have one I use as a door stop. .... In larger households don't forget that there were fires in place, if only in the kitchen, all year around so there was ready access to coals (for the posh version that you either filled or stood on its own fire stand) to heat the thing. One tested the heat it seams by spitting on the iron (I remember my Mum born 1920 doing that for most of her life even with the new fangled electric thing , which is something I cannot bring myself to do but rely on the thermostat). Being well pressed was a class thing - either one could afford a seamstress/ laundress or one had servants who could do it. And there were masses of different sorts of irons developed for crimping and smoothing etc trying to recall the words of the nursery rhyme "dashing away with the smoothing iron..." the tune of which is now rambling around my head Pru (Devon/Cornwall - UK) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 07:55:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BBtdRM029929 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:55:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BBrsd5011005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:53:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BBrq4g011379; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:53:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BBro4g011328 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:53:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bed8.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.216]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 3493C26282D for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:53:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002c01c4673d$bdf43260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <142.2def42ae.2e21e291@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:53:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, totally forgot to answer this. In Costume Closeup there are many sewing teckniques and also something about sems. Many garments was overhandled, and stitched down, this was particular used when seams were curved. And it also used this tecknique for mens clothes. This is also explained in a swedish book about 18th century costumes at the Culturen in Lund. Bjarne. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:23 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? > I, too, have wondered if seams were always pressed open--I suspect not, but > with little evidence for that. > > I think the embroidered waistcoat pieces were sometimes home sew, and > sometimes made by a tailor--there was still some fit involved, after, all, and that > is what you needed a professional for. > > Ann Wass > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 08:01:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BC1kRM029943 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:01:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BBwld5011120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:58:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BBwk4g013826; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:58:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BBwi4g013808 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 05:58:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bed8.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.216]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 36B90262824 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:58:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004801c4673e$6e7a0420$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1089515483.40f0afdb8206b@webmail.netspace.net.au> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:58:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dont you think they had the stow in the kitchen fired up all the time of the day? They had to have warm water for tea and such? Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 5:11 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? > -- do we know if professional > > dressmakers and tailors had an iron hotted up all the time > > > Pure supposition here but logical supposition even for me on a Sunday morning > (okay, afternoon but I slept in): > > The two common types of iron I know of before electric ones came about were: > > Solid iron wedges. Some had fixed handles and some had interchangeable handles > so that one iron could be warming while another was in use; and > > Hollow irons that could be filled with hot coals (these also make great > doorstops in 21st Century homes). > > Another common thing in ye olden dayes was the combustion/wood burner stove > that was usually lit early morning and left to burn all day for cooking, and > hot water. Pot belly stoves were also common. It seems logical that an iron > could be kept warm all day in a building fitted out with one of these. > > If the above supposition is right, I wonder how comfortable things were in > summer months, > > -C. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 08:27:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BCRHRM030050 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:27:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BCNld5012272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:23:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BCNh4g026427; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:23:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.72]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BCNe4g026387 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:23:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jaurbik@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (ool-18bde58e.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.229.142]) by mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I0O004AUT3LLJ@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:23:40 -0400 From: "J.A.Urbik" In-reply-to: <36.5cbeec44.2e227d09@aol.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <40F1314C.5050606@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) References: <36.5cbeec44.2e227d09@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Vermeer X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Good Morning All, Yesterday I went to the bookstore (which has become a much less dangerous place then when I was younger...) and bought 2 art books as well as some cook books (my husband likes to cook and far be if from me to not encourage the man :)). The two art books were on sale at $10 and $6. One was Vermeer with about 39 paintings (link at bottom of the page) reproduced in a fairly large size. The other was on Rembrant, with (i believe), more paintings being reproduced. Anyway, I noticed that in the vermeer book, there were about 3 paintings that had the the same bodice The Music lesson (http://www.mystudios.com/vermeer/14/vermeer-music-lesson.html Officer and Girl (http://www.imsc.res.in/local/gallery/vermeer/Officer_n_girl.gif) Girl Reading a Letter at an open window (http://www.icecastle.org/artwork2/pages/Girl%20Reading%20a%20Letter%20at%20an%20Open%20Window%20(vermeer)_jpg.htm) Young Woman with a water Pitcher (http://www.orandanet.nl/tokusyu_bangaihen/vermeer/vermeer_pictures/nyc_.html) And there were more garments that showed up in several paintings. I have never really looked to closely at these paintings as they are a bunch later then i am truly interested in, but i find them interesting..... Jordana http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1844060055/qid%3D1089547114/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-5991840-6238414 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 08:28:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BCSjRM030059 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:28:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BCPmd5012399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:25:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BCPl4g027496; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:25:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt10.ihug.co.nz (grunt10.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.52]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BCOY4g026787 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:24:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p10-nas1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.210.10] by grunt10.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BjdNc-0002tH-00; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:24:28 +1200 Message-ID: <008b01c46741$fcf4e6e0$0ad2adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000e01c46681$3b361170$0300a8c0@genteelarts> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Spanish costume Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:24:17 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO <> In fatc I've seen Mistress Roheisa's bias cut bliaut, and she showed me very very briefly how to cut it with no waste and very little fabric. I've been meaning to ask her again how to do it, but the body and the skirt are cut in seperate sections, the join being mostly hidden by girdle and good joining;) I wonder if I can find pictures.... http://paradise.gen.nz/~sloth/031121/html/031122am.html A pretty decent one actually, meaning for study purposes;) I cut a lot of my skirts as a half or full circle, which for the hemmage uses much less fabric than rectangular and often gored cuts. Different era, but it does help in exploring other ideas;) michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 09:10:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BDAfRM030283 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:10:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BD9qd5014433 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:09:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BD9F4g048934; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:09:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ns3.linuxwebnet.com (ns3.linuxwebnet.com [216.133.76.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6BD9D4g048905 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:09:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from judymitch@oldwaylane.net) Received: (qmail 30713 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2004 13:44:34 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.249.132.22.dial1.washington2.level3.net (HELO oldwaylane.net) (4.249.132.22) by shada.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2004 13:44:34 -0000 Message-ID: <40F13C42.9020200@oldwaylane.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:10:26 -0400 From: Judy Mitchell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 506 smoothing irons References: <36.5cbeec44.2e227d09@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <36.5cbeec44.2e227d09@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > trying to recall the words of the nursery rhyme "dashing away with the > smoothing iron..." the tune of which is now rambling around my head > do you mean... 'Twas on a Monday morning When I beheld my darling, She looked so neat and charming In ev'ry high degree. She looked so neat and nimble, O, A-washing of her linen, O, |: Dashing away with the smoothing iron, :| She stole my heart away. 'Twas on a Tuesday morning When I beheld my darling, She looked so neat and charming In ev'ry high degree. She looked so neat and nimble, O, A-hanging out her linen, O |: Dashing away with the smoothing iron, :| She stole my heart away. 'Twas on a Wednesday morning . . A-starching of her linen . . . . 'Twas on a Thursday morning . . . . A-ironing of her linen . . . . 'Twas on a Friday morning . . . . A-folding of her linen . . . . 'Twas on a Saturday morning . . . . A-airing of her linen . . . . 'Twas on a Sunday morning . . . . A-wearing of her linen don't know the song, but google is a wonderful thing. ;-) -Judy Mitchell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 09:37:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BDbLRM030383 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:37:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BDYCd5015741 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:34:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BDY94g061649; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:34:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BDY74g061613 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:34:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjeT0-0002Aj-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:34:06 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:34:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c4674b$c3181500$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <40F1314C.5050606@optonline.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6BDY74g061613 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Jordana, sounds to me like you would enjoy "Girl with a Pearl Earing" The author gives a very plausible explanation for your observations. I loved the book and the movie was very pretty. But read the book first! Sg (who is still lusting after Griets boyfriend...am I sick or what?) > Anyway, I noticed that in the vermeer book, there were about 3 >paintings that had the the same bodice > The Music lesson >(http://www.mystudios.com/vermeer/14/vermeer-music-lesson.html > Officer and Girl >(http://www.imsc.res.in/local/gallery/vermeer/Officer_n_girl.gif) > Girl Reading a Letter at an open window >(http://www.icecastle.org/artwork2/pages/Girl%20Reading%20a%20Letter%20at%2 >0an%20Open%20Window%20(vermeer)_jpg.htm) > Young Woman with a water Pitcher >(http://www.orandanet.nl/tokusyu_bangaihen/vermeer/vermeer_pictures/nyc_.ht ml) > >And there were more garments that showed up in several paintings. I >have never really looked to closely at these paintings as they are a >bunch later then i am truly interested in, but i find them >interesting..... > >Jordana > > > > > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1844060055/qid%3D1089547114/sr%3D >11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-5991840-6238414 > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 10:51:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BEp0RM030765 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:51:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BEmvd5019351 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:48:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BEmp4g098762; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:48:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BEmm4g098723 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:48:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02018 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:52:49 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:52:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vermeer In-Reply-To: <000e01c4674b$c3181500$6a01a8c0@SG01> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > Hi Jordana, sounds to me like you would enjoy "Girl with a Pearl Earing" > The author gives a very plausible explanation for your observations. I > loved the book and the movie was very pretty. But read the book first! > > Sg (who is still lusting after Griets boyfriend...am I sick or what?) Only if I'm still sick for lusting after Vermeer, as played by Colin Firth. Your crush is probably healthier! --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 10:57:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BEvrRM031029 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:57:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BEted5019583 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:55:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BEtc4g002369; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:55:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BEta4g002320 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:55:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6BFQf5c061522 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:26:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6BFQeQT061521 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:26:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407111526.i6BFQeQT061521@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > A while back, we were talking about sleeveless shifts and I brought up one I had a picture of in a book. Well, I just found it on the Internet, although you'll need directions to get there - it won't just make a easy link. > > The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ You *HAVE** to use Internet Explorer for this to work. The pictures don't show up in Mozilla > and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, mostly from Austria or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting REALonline, which will open another window. Under Kataloge, select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A list of names appears, starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type in "Medea" and hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex illustrating the story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the shift about 10 down. JErusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 11:00:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BF0lRM031042 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:00:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BEvkd5019717 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:57:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BEvk4g003425; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:57:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BEv74g003087 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:57:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02106 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:01:06 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:01:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vermeer In-Reply-To: <000e01c4674b$c3181500$6a01a8c0@SG01> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > Hi Jordana, sounds to me like you would enjoy "Girl with a Pearl > Earing" The author gives a very plausible explanation for your > observations. I loved the book and the movie was very pretty. But > read the book first! Oh, and that reminds me: When I read the book, I did so with two websites at hand: http://www.ballandclaw.com/vermeer/ ...which shows all the paintings of Vermeer, and provides some useful background; this was good for getting a sense of the known chronology and where the author made educated guesses, and of course to follow along with her descriptions of the paintings, backgrounds, etc. http://essentialvermeer.20m.com/index.html ...everything you'd ever want to know about Vermeer. I already knew a fair amount about him, but this site seems to have everything. Art geeks like me can get lost in a site like this for days. IIRC, Tracy Chevalier, the author of "Girl with a Pearl Earring," also has a site that includes some information about Vermeer and how she worked with the historical facts to create her fiction. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 11:15:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BFF7RM031140 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:15:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFC8d5020388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:12:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFC74g010583; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:12:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFC34g010555 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:12:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6BFhD5c061615 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:43:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6BFhDP1061614 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:43:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407111543.i6BFhDP1061614@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > A while back, we were talking about sleeveless shifts and I brought up one I had a picture of in a book. Well, I just found it on the Internet, although you'll need directions to get there - it won't just make a easy link. > > The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ > and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, mostly from Austria or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting REALonline, which will open another window. Under Kataloge, select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A list of names appears, starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type in "Medea" and hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex illustrating the story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the shift about 10 down. Nother techie alert --IE won't let you open just that frame in another window. There's no option for it on a Right Click. *sigh* However, did you notice that some of the houppelandish things had different colored bag sleeves with hanging sleeves that went to the floor? Like these http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008188.JPG (you can open the link in a new window, just not the whole frame) http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008191.JPG Way cool! Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 11:17:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BFH8RM031148 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:17:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFFJd5020537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:15:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFFJ4g012161; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:15:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFFG4g012131 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:15:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6BFkR5c061658 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:46:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6BFkRNq061657 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:46:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407111546.i6BFkRNq061657@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Johannes berries In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks! Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 11:17:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BFHkRM031153 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:17:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFHKd5020627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:17:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFHJ4g013125; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:17:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFH84g013012 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:17:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6BFmE5c061685 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:48:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6BFmDal061684 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:48:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:48:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407111548.i6BFmDal061684@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Johannes berries In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey, that's ok. We have several things to look for now ... :-) > > Oops. replied before I looked through the email on this. :P > > De > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 11:50:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BFomRM031310 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:50:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFmvd5022312 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:48:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BFms4g029904; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:48:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6BFmp4g029818 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:48:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OsVEsXTdHQxw+/Lv1Q3JdLE= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id JZ95ATSS; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:48:05 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:47:41 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts Message-ID: <20040711.084742.1652.4.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-4 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Cley@juno.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Did the medieval English ever wear these? I'm assuming as an undergarment. Someone told me once that they may have been worn under sideless surcoats with the sleeved dress. Arlys ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 12:23:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BGNFRM031456 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:23:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BGLSd5023972 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:21:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BGLQ4g047030; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:21:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BGLP4g046992 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:21:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004071116211801300j3v64e>; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:21:18 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:20:18 -0400 From: Lauren Walker To: h-costume Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks, Ron and Bjarne, for sharing your knowledge of ironing. The 18th Century house where I've been volunteering has come to believe that the fire wouldn't necessarily be lit all day, especially in hot weather, as it makes the house faintingly unbearable. But this is a very small house with the kitchen and fireplace in its main room (of three rooms). In the 18th century a larger household might have had a summer kitchen in an outbuilding, if the arrangements at Colonial Williamsburg can be trusted in this detail. In the colder months, it stands to reason a fire *would* always be lit, to provide heat as well as the regular cup of tea. This for me raises the question of whether non-professional sewing might have been primarily a winter task (other than mending) while the summer was perhaps devoted to more agricultural pursuits? Since I raised this question about pressing seams, I have been reminded that some stitchers use a tool like the paper-creasing flat sticks used in origami or an old-fashioned letter-knife, to crease down seams. It seems to me that these might have been handier for the home-stitcher to use than having to go to the kitchen or stove for an iron every time a seam was turned. What do you think? Also, one taxonomic question for Ron, slightly OT: the person who's teaching me hearth-cooking at the historic house mentioned above does a lot of cooking by hanging pots on the iron crane over the fire, thus, the *cooking* is in the fireplace, though of course the *cook* remains mostly on the hearth (though you wouldn't always know it by how sooty I get!) Is there another name for this or does it still count as hearth cooking? Thanks again, Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 12:38:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BGcERM031554 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:38:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BGaOd5024791 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:36:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BGaN4g054905; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:36:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BGaJ4g054850 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:36:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004071116361301500hs198e>; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:36:13 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:35:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yum! Worth the navigation woes. I love the textures on the fabrics in this series, and all the little incidental dogs scattered about! The sleeveless shift looks belted, too. Think this is for bust support? Or just to follow the line of the outer clothes? Lauren > From: "JAMES OGILVIE" > > A while back, we were talking about sleeveless shifts and I brought up one I > had a picture of in a book. Well, I just found it on the Internet, although > you'll need directions to get there - it won't just make a easy link. > > The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ > and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, mostly from > Austria or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting REALonline, which will open > another window. Under Kataloge, select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A > list of names appears, starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type > in "Medea" and hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex > illustrating the story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the shift about 10 > down. > > Janet > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 13:03:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BH3ERM031668 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:03:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BGuLd5025882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:56:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BGuG4g065892; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:56:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BGuF4g065878 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:56:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6BGuCBm003955 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:56:13 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:57:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On the topic of sleeveless shifts -- having made a couple of these for myself to wear under my kirtles/cotehardies in the summer, I have to say they are quite comfortable. Just the fact that there isn't a second sleeve that I'm wearing under my main layer makes it much cooler. Of course, they're linen anyway so they're already a lot less heat-retaining than cotton (at least imho). One thing I can say about them is that the armseye needs to be quite small -- in fact, just large enough to fit without pinching or cutting into your arm or underarm. The first sleeveless chemise/shift that I made, I didn't do this way. I simply made my "normal" pattern, but left off the sleeves. I quickly found that this allowed the shoulders of the chemise to migrate all over the place, sometimes even protruding oddly from the neckline of my overgarment. With a snug armseye, the neckline of the chemise stays where it should, and nobody will ever know you don't have sleeves on it -- unless of course you show them. :) Talia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 13:38:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BHc5RM031848 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:38:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BHaDd5028142 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:36:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BHaB4g087801; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:36:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BHa74g087759 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:36:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m238.in-tch.com [216.166.191.238]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6BHBS621640 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:11:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F17B72.5090904@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:40:02 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] EarlyMedievalCorsets???? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dang. Some fun *you* are! ;-D --sue, more than willing to give some books a good home Robin Netherton wrote: > If it's the one we've been talking about, with the pictures of the grave > garments, I've just dug it out: > > "Museo de Telas Medievales, Monasterio de Santa Maria la Real de Huelgas > Burgos," Concha Herrero Carretero. Madrid: Patrimonio Nacional, 1988. ISBN > 84-7120-127-5. > > Why do I even own this book? I don't do Spanish, I don't read Spanish, and > there are loads of other books I need more. (But no, I'm not selling it!) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 14:09:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BI9kRM031995 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:09:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BI96d5000199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:09:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BI8w4g005727; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:08:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jade.spiritone.com (jade.spiritone.com [216.99.193.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BI8r4h005669 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:08:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wandap@hevanet.com) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by jade.spiritone.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6BI8mSW027370 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:08:49 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 11:16:21 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I usually hate these posts that start with "I have this memory of reading somewhere", but here I am about to be guilty myself. I remember reading somewhere about glass or stones that were used for "smoothing stones" for ironing and polishing cloth prior to the 18th Century. According to an old "Hints from Heloise" book, what makes ironing work is heat and pressure. This is why I always pick the heaviest iron rather than the "feather-weight". At any rate, it would make sense to have a piece of glass attached to some type of handle (duct tape?) that could be heated by the fire or on a stand over a lamp. Glass is actually very stable unless you change the temperature quickly. It is also very smooth and relatively heavy. It is also easy to clean soot off of. I've ironed with the old Sad irons (Sad meaning "heavy" in this context) iron and it was a bad experience. I always grasp the handle with a cloth folded in several layers. My mother remembered using old diapers as hand protection. Their biggest problem is the lack of heat control (a relatively new feature with electric irons-if you consider the 1950's not so long ago) and the fact that they rust when you look at them funny. Since you are running them over clothing that you have dampened the possibility of burned fabric and rust all over it is great. Once you have used them and they have cooled off to just warm, my mother always advised running them over a sheet of waxed paper to protect the face from rusting until the next time. Glass or even a fine grained stone would work better than iron, but it was probably far easier to mass produce something that could be case in a particular shape. Here is what an iron collector's page has to say about early smoothing devices http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.uq.net.au/ %7Ezzbdavis/: "Sad irons do not mean unhappy irons as the word now implies, but to mean being heavy. So all heavy irons are known as sad irons. Sad heating irons as we know them now, are recorded back to the beginning of the 16th century. When they came into general use in Europe, it was the Dutch that pioneered its popularity, though goffering irons were used in the early 12th century to facilitate the pressing of frills, ruffles and pleats in France. Smoothing Stones have been around since the 8th and 9th century and are known as the earliest western ironing devices, looking somewhat like a large mushroom. In Scandinavia they are known as slicken stones, slekje meaning to polish and smooth. Made from various hard materials, wood, glass, stone and bone etc., one or two hands were used to press firmly down upon the fabric and pressed in a rubbing manner back and forth using friction for heat. In parts of Holland they are still used to this day, preparing the starched parts of their National costume by polishing and smoothing, but here known as leksteen. Smoothing Board or mangle board are another early ironing device, wrapping the fabric around a poker type roller (50mm to 75 mm dia.) the flat handled board was pressed in a rolling motion until the desired result was achieved. Made of hard wood and ornately carved and painted these boards were often given away as presents or wedding gifts with personal markings. Linen Presses as the name implies was also an early method for pressing fabric, not unlike a book press that has two hard flat surfaces and squeezed together via a threaded rod. The fabric being placed between the two plates and flattened with the pressure. Goffering Irons as earlier mentioned, were slender rods or cigar like tubes on a stand or used individually like a poker. Heated either with a hot slug or over heat and varied in size, to the size of the ruff required, some being very decorative." Regina Romsey > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 14:35:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BIZ6RM032121 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:35:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BIW0d5001492 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:32:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BIVv4g018128; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:31:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BIVs4g018085 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:31:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Bjj79-0009cv-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:31:51 +0100 Message-ID: <6tLo9rCgaY8AJwHM@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:27:44 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] PS: What's UNDER headrails? References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There are some things which might have been worn under headrails and veils - The Coppergate Viking cap, and Viking headscarves are possibilities. When you get to the 13th century there are all sorts of combinations of barbettes and fillets and veils and wimples, which suggests to me that maybe the strappy items were there already, and just came out into the light? The illustrations we are dealing with for early medieval times are not the kind of naturalistic, detailed, see-every-pin style that later periods have the benefit of. I take the view that if it works, and makes it look like the pictures (ie, you can't see it in the pictures and you can't see it on me), it's a reasonable hypothesis to put forward. I'd be delighted if anyone came up with sufficiently detailed evidence to prove or disprove it! It's very similar to the issue of what, if anything, women wore in the way of nether undergarments. There are comparatively few representations of women, and the vast majority of those there are, are queens, saints or angels. Surprisingly enough, none of them are depicted in their scanties, so we just don't know. But it also means, as long as I don't turn cartwheels or dance a can-can, I can wear what I like under my skirts. Jean Lauren Walker wrote > >Jean's note raised an interesting question, though -- do we know if women >were wearing things under their headrails? It sure would help the whole >pinning thing, especially until my hair grows long again. I was just >thinking that men in the middle ages largely wore coifs, and in later >periods women are wearing caps that are not un-coif-like though they get >much rufflier by the end. I have often wondered if the answer to >head-draping mightn't be to have some kind of cap underneath. But you sure >don't see any of it in the paintings I've seen. Are there any thoughts on >this? >Thank you again, >Lauren > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 14:37:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BIbnRM032136 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:37:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BIa4d5001646 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:36:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BIa24g020256; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:36:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from colossus.systems.pipex.net (colossus.systems.pipex.net [62.241.160.73]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BIZv4g020189 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:35:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from linda.walton@dsl.pipex.com) Received: from bella (81-86-114-151.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.114.151]) by colossus.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 196431C00188 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:35:52 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <035301c46775$d3f06c40$97725651@bella> From: "Linda Walton" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:35:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > (snip) > I remember reading somewhere about glass or stones that were used for > "smoothing stones" for ironing and polishing cloth prior to the 18th > Century. > (snip) There are these Viking finds http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/Archives/vikings/home.html in the Hunterian Museum in Glasgow. The interpretation of them as for ironing clothes seems a bit odd to me, but I know very little about the period. And I always have trouble distinguishing whether such articles are for smoothing clothing, or for the more important wet finishing and hard pressing of cloth new from the loom. Yours sincerely, Linda Walton. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 15:22:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BJMYRM032391 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:22:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJKid5004095 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:20:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJKd4g045140; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:20:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJKa4g045113 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:20:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.153.199.217.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.199.217]) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjjsI-0006si-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:20:35 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:19:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO All of these are fairly complex plaids... http://jessamynscloset.com/plaid.html Grace/Jessamyn who knows very little about weaving... > From: Lauren Walker > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:15:37 -0400 > To: h-costume > Subject: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? > > Hi, > Sorry -- I missed the beginning of this strand and can't seem to find it, > but someone's asking if a plaid can be woven diagonally. > > I'm just curious -- um, how PLAID is it? There are a lot of diamond twills > that give a sort of diagonal-square look, but I don't think they'd look > truly plaid (modern sense of plaid, multi-color unbalanced check) because, > if this makes sense, the colors still change at right angles. If it's truly > plaid and truly woven diagonally, it would have to be pretty darn complex. I > would think easier to do as a print. Or as some variant on finger-loop > weaving or multi-strand braiding, which can give you a diagonal plaid, come > to think of it, because the threads are all diagonal to the edges. > > Sorry; this is not really an answer -- you've just got me thinking about it. > Lauren > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 15:26:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BJQDRM032418 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:26:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJPgd5004540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:25:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJPf4g047995; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:25:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJPd4g047938 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:25:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004071119253301300j1gqve>; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:25:33 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:24:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And we think these were woven on the diagonal why? Lauren > From: Grace Morris > All of these are fairly complex plaids... > > http://jessamynscloset.com/plaid.html > > Grace/Jessamyn > who knows very little about weaving... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 15:29:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BJTXRM032434 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:29:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJRod5004630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:27:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJRn4g049132; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:27:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJRA4g048779 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:27:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.153.199.217.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.199.217]) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bjjye-00000V-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:27:09 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:25:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] EarlyMedievalCorsets???? From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002701c466d0$7a647090$f564c345@39jz301> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6BJRA4g048779 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I found that the writing is this book is easily translated using Google and a good dictionary. (Unfortunately I can't say the same for a lot of academic Spanish writing, especially older works!) For information on more of the contents of Huelgas, you can look for the eaqually-hard-to-find "El Panteon Real de las Huelgas de Burgos" by Manuel Gómez-Moreno, published in Madrid in 1946 (Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Cientificas, Instituto Diego Velásquez) Grace/Jessamyn > From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:51:46 -0400 > To: "Historical Costume" > Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] > EarlyMedievalCorsets???? > > Greetings-- > >> "Museo de Telas Medievales, Monasterio de Santa Maria la Real de Huelgas >> Burgos," Concha Herrero Carretero. Madrid: Patrimonio Nacional, 1988. ISBN >> 84-7120-127-5. >> >> Why do I even own this book? I don't do Spanish, I don't read Spanish, and >> there are loads of other books I need more. (But no, I'm not selling it!) > > That's the one. > > It does have some lovely full-colour plates and diagrams that can be figured > out with a dictionary. Also, since I read French and Latin, I found I could > at least get the gist of a lot of the Spanish. > > Susan > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 15:34:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BJYsRM032464 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:34:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJYPd5005230 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:34:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJYO4g052793; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:34:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BJYL4g052777 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:34:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.153.199.217.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.199.217]) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bjk5c-000152-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:34:20 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:33:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO We don't...necessarily. Actually, we don't know either way. That's what the discussion is all about. Then the NEXT person that decides to tackle this might have more information. So would someone else please jump on this before I get bored again and try another one? Grace/Jessamyn > From: Lauren Walker > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:24:34 -0400 > To: Historical Costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? > > And we think these were woven on the diagonal why? > Lauren > >> From: Grace Morris > >> All of these are fairly complex plaids... >> >> http://jessamynscloset.com/plaid.html >> >> Grace/Jessamyn >> who knows very little about weaving... > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 16:41:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BKftRM000455 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:41:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BKe6d5008828 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:40:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BKdw4g088258; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:39:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.donet.com (mail.donet.com [64.56.96.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BKdt4h088198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:39:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mjh@pearlandplume.com) Received: (qmail 25307 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2004 20:39:52 -0000 X-Sender: mjh@pearlandplume.com X-Recipient: h-costume@indra.com Received: from unknown (HELO ?65.24.121.118?) (65.24.121.118) by mail.donet.com for h-costume@indra.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2004 20:39:52 -0000 Received-SPF: none (mail.donet.com: domain at pearlandplume.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:34:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X From: Marsha J Hamilton To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've been hoping someday for a book on the Burgos textiles/costume, but I haven't been able to track any down. Did you see any on your trip? Do you know of any? Language doesn't matter as long as there are pictures. Thanks. Marsha ------- on 7/9/04 1:23 PM, JAMES OGILVIE at bear_janet@msn.com wrote: > > Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally > got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover > when you finally see the garment in person. > > Does this mean you brought back lots of good photos of art that you will soon > be posting on your web site (hint, hint)? It is so hard to find Spanish > medieval and renaissance art either in books or, even worse, on the internet. > > Janet > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 16:55:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BKtpRM000596 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:55:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BKs4d5009827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:54:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BKs34g095724; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:54:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BKs04g095685 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:54:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-67-101-145-205.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([67.101.145.205] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjlKf-0001rZ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:53:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:41:16 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 3:24 PM -0400 7/11/04, Lauren Walker wrote: > > From: Grace Morris > >> All of these are fairly complex plaids... >> >> http://jessamynscloset.com/plaid.html >> >> Grace/Jessamyn > > who knows very little about weaving... >And we think these were woven on the diagonal why? >Lauren > We're exploring a wide variety of possible contexts for these artistic representations, falling into three general functional categories (in no particular order): 1) They're just imaginative pictures and don't represent anything about the structure of actual garments. 2) They represent a normal plaid-pattern fabric that has been cut on the bias. 3) They appear on a garment that has been cut straight-grain, and therefore the fabric pattern is not a woven plaid, but some weaving or printing technique that gives the same appearance but is not restricted to following the grain. Given that there are logical arguments behind each general position, it makes sense to explore the relative plausibility of all of them before eliminating any from consideration. (I hope this doesn't badly contradict anyone else's understanding of the conversation.) Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 17:17:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BLHmRM000819 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:17:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BLFpd5011243 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:15:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BLFe4g007190; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:15:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.donet.com (mail.donet.com [64.56.96.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BLFb4h007153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 15:15:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mjh@pearlandplume.com) Received: (qmail 13227 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2004 21:15:36 -0000 X-Sender: mjh@pearlandplume.com X-Recipient: h-costume@indra.com Received: from unknown (HELO ?65.24.121.118?) (65.24.121.118) by mail.donet.com for h-costume@indra.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2004 21:15:36 -0000 Received-SPF: none (mail.donet.com: domain at pearlandplume.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:10:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] House of Worth From: Marsha J Hamilton To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000901c4671d$a96704f0$0200a8c0@MOM> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO According to "The Opulent Era: Fashions of Worth, Doucet and Pingat" published in 1989 in conjunction with an exhibition at the Brooklyn Museum (ISBN=0-87273-119-7): "Beginning in 1952, a series of events signaled the end of the venerable House of Worth. First, Roger retired and was succeeded by Maurice. Then in 1954, the competing design house of Paquin (founded 1891) bought out Worth in an attempt to reestablish it in the fashion scene, only to close the House of Worth's doors finally two years later. Today, the name of Worth lives on through the scents of Parfum Worth." P. 24 Earlier it mentions: "In about 1935 the London branch, located now at 50 Grosvenor Street, was made into a separate business with Elspeth Champcommunal as its designer. This branch was to continue as a privileged customer of the Paris house." p. p. 23. It doesn't say if the London branch survived WWII or if it closed when the Paris house closed. End dates: it looks like 1952 for the family-owned business in Paris and 1954 for the Paquin-Worth business. The Worth family controlled the business for 4 generations. The address in Paris was 7, rue de la Paix. This exhibition catalog is drool-worthy with lots of b&w and color photos and a readable info-packed text. Highly recommended. Marsha ------- on 7/11/04 4:04 AM, Penny Ladnier at penny@costumegallery.com wrote: > Does anyone know when the House of Worth went out of business? I have > documentation that his sons passed away in 1924 & 1926. Did the design house > continue on business after the sons deaths? Or did it close immediately? > > I do recall a few years ago on h-costume, someone mentioned that the old > building, where the Worth business was in Paris, was going to be torn down at > the time. The list member was hoping someone had an idea of how to save the > building. Does anyone know if the building was actually destroyed? > > Penny E. Ladnier > Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom > www.costumegallery.com > www.costumeclassroom.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 19:32:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6BNWcRM001557 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:32:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BNW3d5021023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:32:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BNVp4g087283; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:31:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6BNVl4g087233 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:31:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6C02w5c065102 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:02:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6C02wq8065101 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:02:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407120002.i6C02wq8065101@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > And we think these were woven on the diagonal why? > Lauren Well, I don't think you'd want to have one side on the diagonal and the other on the straight grain -- I don't think you'd want to have both sides on the diagonal either -- way too much stretch. Jerusha > > > From: Grace Morris > > > All of these are fairly complex plaids... > > > > http://jessamynscloset.com/plaid.html > > > > Grace/Jessamyn > > who knows very little about weaving... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 21:16:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C1GCRM002748 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:16:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C1EKd5026782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:14:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C1ED4g040760; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:14:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C1EC4g040743 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:14:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BjpOV-0007GR-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:14:11 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-another techie alert Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:14:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c467ad$90d83c70$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6C1EC4g040743 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cool picture! Another thing to note about this database is that the picture number on the actual jpg file is not the number you look it up with in the db...I learned the hard way on that one. I have all these pictures I had saved and then had to noodle out how I had found them to get back to them. This is a very cool db. I had written the administrator to see if they had a more advanced search capability (like Bildindex, for whom they supply many pictures), but they don't-pooh. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 21:49:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C1nbRM003282 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:49:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C1lnd5028521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:47:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C1lk4g057600; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:47:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C1lh4h057567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:47:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6C1jctY002126 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:45:38 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F1EDBC.6040001@thibault.org> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:47:40 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Norris sources References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cindy Abel wrote: > What I miss are research and books that ignore or bash past fashions because > they don't fit the current aesthetic. While on vacation, I read a novel that was at the cottage. The writer tried to do research, (she mentions it in the afterword) but what she found was a source which told her that 1: med/ren people didn't love their children until the kids were 10 or so because most didn't survive, and 2: kids as old as 1 yr. were swaddled so tightly that they couldn't move and went into a stupor, and then they were hung on a peg on the wall while their moms did the work, with a big pan under them to catch what effusions weren't absorbed by the swaddling. ARGH! On Norris specifically, I tried to track down one of his illustration sources and came up with something rather different; pictures & text here: http://www.virtue.to/articles/crespinette.html -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Do it, Deligate it, or Drop it. -- vew _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 22:25:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C2P4RM003452 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:25:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C2OPd5000768 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:24:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C2OJ4g075926; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:24:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmlapp16.siteprotect.com (cmlapp16.siteprotect.com [64.41.126.229]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C2OH4g075893 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:24:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cschmitt@genteelarts.com) Received: from genteelarts (oh-69-68-45-126.dyn.sprint-hsd.net [69.68.45.126]) by cmlapp16.siteprotect.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A79313EE for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:24:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Carolann Schmitt" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:23:33 -0400 Organization: Genteel Arts Message-ID: <001001c467b7$3ff82680$0300a8c0@genteelarts> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <035301c46775$d3f06c40$97725651@bella> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] 2005 Ladies & Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My apologies for the multiple posts if you belong to several lists. Genteel Arts is pleased to announce the 2005 Ladies and Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference. The conference will be held March 3-6, 2005 in Harrisburg, PA. The Conference features a full program of presentations on the clothing and culture of the mid-nineteenth century with programs of interest for both ladies and gentlemen. Other features include extensive displays of original clothing, accessories and artifacts, pre-conference hands-on workshops and seminars, a juried vendor area and several social activities. Complete details, including registration information, is available at www.genteelarts.com Early registration is encouraged; the 2003 and 2004 Conferences were sold out! Carolann Schmitt cschmitt@genteelarts.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 22:29:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C2TtRM003495 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:29:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C2S8d5000975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:28:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C2S64g077806; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:28:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C2QQ4h076967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:26:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6C2OMtY002213 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:24:22 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F1F6D1.5050007@thibault.org> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:26:25 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houp/ sleeveless shifts References: <200407111543.i6BFhDP1061614@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407111543.i6BFhDP1061614@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Susan Farmer wrote: > However, did you notice that some of the houppelandish things had different > colored bag sleeves with hanging sleeves that went to the floor? Like these > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008188.JPG > (you can open the link in a new window, just not the whole frame) > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008191.JPG > > Way cool! Yes! (Although I wouldn't call the undersleeve a bag sleeve -- the things I call bag sleeves have enough room in them to store a cat, sometimes a medium-sized dog.) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Do it, Deligate it, or Drop it. -- vew _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 23:02:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C32rRM003695 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:02:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C315d5003021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:01:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3124g094873; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:01:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C30x4g094847 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:00:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bjr3o-00060k-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:00:56 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:01:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c467bc$7b0b30a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >> >> Sg (who is still lusting after Griets boyfriend...am I sick or what?) > >Only if I'm still sick for lusting after Vermeer, as played by Colin >Firth. Your crush is probably healthier! [Sg] Oooh, I don't know. I like that dirty boy look too. My favs-Johnny Depp and the fellow who played Strider in the Lord of the Rings series (I don't even know his name...but I bet I could recognize his butt a mile away!) Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 23:14:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C3E5RM003747 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:14:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3DWd5003792 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:13:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3DB4g001200; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:13:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f7.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.7]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3D74g001129 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:13:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:13:02 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:13:01 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:13:01 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2004 03:13:02.0013 (UTC) FILETIME=[2416AED0:01C467BE] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" >Reply-To: Historical Costume the fellow who played Strider in the Lord of the Rings series (I >don't even know his name...but I bet I could recognize his butt a mile >away!) Strider/Aragon http://imdb.com/name/nm0001557/ _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 23:45:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C3jHRM003959 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:45:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3iVd5006040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:44:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3iR4g017396; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:44:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav135.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.165]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3iO4g017319 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:44:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:44:16 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav135.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:44:16 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:44:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:44:18 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2004 03:44:16.0634 (UTC) FILETIME=[817325A0:01C467C2] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6C3jHRM003959 Status: RO In the 18th century a larger household might have had a summer kitchen in an outbuilding, if the arrangements at Colonial Williamsburg can be trusted in this detail. In the 19th century Midwest, summer kitchens were found. The family homestead of my ex-husband had one, made of stone which might have been cooler inside. but what she found was a source which told her that 1: med/ren people didn't love their children until the kids were 10 or so because most didn't survive What she found was probably a book by Philippe Aries called Centuries of Childhood. At one point (like when I was in college), this was considered great new modern stuff because it got European history away from wars and kings and into the lives of everyday people. Many people (especially my classmates) however found his conclusions that children were not valued in the Middle Ages and that childhood was not considered distinct from the rest of life rather controversial. My opinion was formed in the first chapter of the book when he describes the winter scene in the Tres Riches Heures with the peasants sitting around the fire as three women. Because of the clothing difference, I had just assumed there was a man in there so I got down my copy and found that 2 of the 3 have their skirts kilted up and were not wearing underwear. I decided that a person who couldn't tell a man from a woman when the genitals are on display probably couldn't be trusted to know about anything else either. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 11 23:52:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C3q3RM003980 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:52:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3oFd5006416 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:50:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3oC4g020407; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:50:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C3oA4g020349 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 21:50:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from SNSpies@aol.com) Received: from SNSpies@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.d1.11003174 (4380) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:50:04 -0400 (EDT) From: SNSpies@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:50:04 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 509 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There are some things which might have been worn under headrails and veils - The Coppergate Viking cap, and Viking headscarves are possibilities Viking head scarves? I would be thrilled to learn that any have been found. Please advise! Nancy <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Nancy Spies Arelate Studio www.weavershand.com/ArelateStudio.html Ingvild Josefsdatter, OL Bright Hills, Atlantia "This effervescence that you observe in me is intellectual carbonisation. Spiritual rejoicing. An entirely cerebral scintillation." Josephine Tey, "Daughter of Time" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 00:22:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C4MkRM004165 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:22:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C4MFd5008309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:22:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C4MB4g036723; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:22:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C4M84g036691 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:22:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6C4rM5c066967 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:53:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6C4rM6m066966 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:53:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407120453.i6C4rM6m066966@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houp/ sleeveless shifts In-Reply-To: <40F1F6D1.5050007@thibault.org> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Susan Farmer wrote: > > However, did you notice that some of the houppelandish things had different > > colored bag sleeves with hanging sleeves that went to the floor? Like these > > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008188.JPG > > (you can open the link in a new window, just not the whole frame) > > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008191.JPG > > > > Way cool! > > Yes! > > (Although I wouldn't call the undersleeve a bag sleeve -- the things I > call bag sleeves have enough room in them to store a cat, sometimes a > medium-sized dog.) Well, that's true; but I coldn't think of the correct word for that type of sleeve! *sigh* Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 00:30:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C4UtRM004250 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:30:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C4T4d5008913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:29:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C4T24g040235; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:29:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C4T04g040210 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:29:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06412 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:33:04 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:33:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, JAMES OGILVIE wrote: > > but what she found was a source which told her that 1: med/ren people > > didn't love their children until the kids were 10 or so because most > > didn't survive > > What she found was probably a book by Philippe Aries called Centuries > of Childhood. At one point (like when I was in college), this was > considered great new modern stuff because it got European history away > from wars and kings and into the lives of everyday people. Many > people (especially my classmates) however found his conclusions that > children were not valued in the Middle Ages and that childhood was not > considered distinct from the rest of life rather controversial. I remember another source (this would have been about 20 years ago) that analyzed medieval legal records regarding deaths. The author noted a sizable number of deaths that occurred from things like parents running into burning buildings to rescue children, and concluded that these parents, at least, valued their children's lives very much indeed. The author may have been intending to refute Aries for all I know. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if the assumption that medieval people didn't care about or become attached to children (because of the high mortality rate) is much older than Aries; I seem to recall reading it in older sources. A spin through medieval literature, letters, and even tomb inscriptions will certainly set *that* straight. Examples of love for children, and despair at their loss, are far easier to find than the opposite, which I suspect was no more than a plausible-sounding theory. (The 14th century dream-vision "Pearl" is apparently built around the theme of a father mourning the death of his very young daughter; whatever other symbolism you want to pile on top of that, even if it were just a framing device, it would not have made sense in a world where baby girls were considered expendable and interchangeable.) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 01:14:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C5EoRM004433 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:14:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5EEd5012453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:14:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5EB4g063117; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:14:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5E94g063100 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:14:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m59.in-tch.com [216.166.191.59]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6C4nV611407 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F21F0D.7000406@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:18:05 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think that sums it up pretty good, Heather! For Lauren: Some of us would suppose that the plaid half of the garment, at least, is done from a specially-woven fabric woven on the bias because the two garment halves seem to behave in the same fashion, draping the same, etc. But that would be a pretty complicated, if not downright impossible/unknown weave at the time (I don't know *nearly* enough to be definitive), so others would expect the bias look to be a result of the cut, not the weave. But that makes for a non-standard cutting technique, so....(and around and around....) For Grace: I'd like to make one of these, eventually, so I think of the following, based on the assumption that the depictions are not pure fantasy. 1. We have surviving examples of plaids from this same time period, roughly. Due to remnant size, we don't always know what the given use was, but we can tell how they were woven. Danielle's sources aside (which will be cool to see when she sends them), I don't know of any surviving textile with a plaid pattern woven in such a way as to make the whole thing look "on point", if you know what I mean. So, I'm theorizing that this would be standard-woven plaid, probably done in some sort of twill weave (as opposed to a tabby weave), if only because most of the surviving woolen textiles that I know of from this time period are of a twill weave. 2. We do know that there were medieval, bias-cut garments, but I think they're all things like fitted hose or trews. ISTR at least one pair of trews done in a bias-cut plaid. I don't know of any upper-body garments or gowns that have survived, though, that are bias-cut, although I could easily be inaccurate here. 3. It's a given that fabric behaves differently along the bias than along the straight of the grain, so if I construct one of these, I'll have to play with the plain and plaid sides--would they both be cut on the bias, so that both halves behave in similar fashion, or would only the plaid side be cut on the bias? How would this affect drape, construction, etc? If I could get the fabric, it'd be real, real tempting to make a series of gowns with cheap wool and linen to see how the direction of the grain would affect the finished look. I'd most likely base my tests on what I learned in Robin's GFD workshop a few years back, because that's the most "logical" method for constructing these garments that I've personally experienced. 4. I would also want to explore what else might be intended by depicting people in such rare kinds of particolor--is it indicative of a certain class or social niche? Are these people outsiders? or foreigners? (thinking of the codes built into the clothing of the Manesse Codex, for instance ;o) 5. Other odd mysteries related to this would be trying to work out what examples we have (if any) of garments made of plaid but cut on the grain rather than the bias, as well as making an inventory of garments that were known to have been cut on the bias. It's a fun puzzle to poke at, at the very least. One of the things that makes study and recreation of clothing from earlier times so simultaneously fascinating and frustrating.... --sue, who loves fabric puzzles ;o) Heather Rose Jones wrote: > At 3:24 PM -0400 7/11/04, Lauren Walker wrote: > >> > From: Grace Morris >> >>> All of these are fairly complex plaids... >>> >>> http://jessamynscloset.com/plaid.html >>> >>> Grace/Jessamyn >> >> > who knows very little about weaving... > > >> And we think these were woven on the diagonal why? >> Lauren >> > > We're exploring a wide variety of possible contexts for these artistic > representations, falling into three general functional categories (in no > particular order): > > 1) They're just imaginative pictures and don't represent anything about > the structure of actual garments. > > 2) They represent a normal plaid-pattern fabric that has been cut on the > bias. > > 3) They appear on a garment that has been cut straight-grain, and > therefore the fabric pattern is not a woven plaid, but some weaving or > printing technique that gives the same appearance but is not restricted > to following the grain. > > Given that there are logical arguments behind each general position, it > makes sense to explore the relative plausibility of all of them before > eliminating any from consideration. > > (I hope this doesn't badly contradict anyone else's understanding of the > conversation.) > > Heather _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 01:24:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C5OFRM004455 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:24:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5Ngd5013284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:23:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5Nf4g067696; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:23:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5Nc4g067671 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:23:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m59.in-tch.com [216.166.191.59]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6C4x0614410 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:59:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F22147.20800@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:27:35 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 509 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's a whole book of viking/dublin headcoverings out now (I've got one sitting on my bookshelf). I ordered mine directly from the Royal Irish Academy (they've got a website). Wasn't cheap--30+ euro, not counting the shipping cost, but it only took a couple of weeks to get all the way to Montana, and it came as part of a pretty big box, since I kinda indulged in some of their other publications with my tax refund . It's a completely cool book....scarves and caps and all *kinds* of stuff! --sue SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > There are some things which might have been worn under headrails and > veils - The Coppergate Viking cap, and Viking headscarves are > possibilities > > Viking head scarves? I would be thrilled to learn that any have been found. > Please advise! > > Nancy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 01:27:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C5RYRM004505 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:27:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5R5d5013592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:27:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5R44g069282; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:27:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5R14g069213 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:27:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m59.in-tch.com [216.166.191.59]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6C52I615301 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:02:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F2220C.10200@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:30:52 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer References: <000001c467bc$7b0b30a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000001c467bc$7b0b30a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Viggo Mortensen. Any misspellings of his name due entirely to keyboard malfunction from all the drool. He's also in _Hidalgo_, which I actually saw more than once in the theatre, and WILL own when it comes out on DVD! *yummm* --sue, who has her "Pirates" copy for her Depp fixes ;o) Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: >>>Sg (who is still lusting after Griets boyfriend...am I sick or what?) >> >>Only if I'm still sick for lusting after Vermeer, as played by Colin >>Firth. Your crush is probably healthier! > > [Sg] Oooh, I don't know. I like that dirty boy look too. My favs-Johnny > Depp and the fellow who played Strider in the Lord of the Rings series (I > don't even know his name...but I bet I could recognize his butt a mile > away!) > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 01:39:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C5dJRM004558 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:39:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5ZNdh014538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:37:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5V54g071796; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:31:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jade.spiritone.com (jade.spiritone.com [216.99.193.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5V34h071778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:31:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wandap@hevanet.com) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by jade.spiritone.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6C5V2SW026662 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:31:03 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:38:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton: >snip< > I remember another source (this would have been about 20 years ago) that > analyzed medieval legal records regarding deaths. The author noted a > sizable number of deaths that occurred from things like parents running > into burning buildings to rescue children, and concluded that these > parents, at least, valued their children's lives very much indeed. Probably: The Ties That Bound: Peasant Families in Medieval England by Barbara A. Hanawalt While it is perfectly true that these show that some families valued their children's lives, it also shows that parents were also quite neglectful by our standards. She cites examples of children left alone in cradles too near the fire and being burned to death in their cribs. Others not watched fell into ditches and ponds and drowned, or simply left alone and accidents befalling them. Frankly, my brothers and I had a happy and much loved childhood and did all kinds of things that would get our parents arrested for neglect today. I came home from school and played until my mother came home from the time I was in Kindergarten. My brothers and I played alongside our local mini-river. We have a picture of my oldest brother selling newspapers at the local train station when he was 7. He got on the train and was only saved from taking the trip over the mountains to the next town by an alert conductor - which was the reason for the picture. He was considered a good example of independence. Because kids weren't constantly watched didn't mean that they weren't loved. The idea of babies being tightly swaddled is depicted fairly frequently. How old they got before the bands were taken off probably depended on the parents. Regina _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 02:03:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C63vRM005704 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:03:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C61Pd5016755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:01:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C61M4g086878; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:01:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jade.spiritone.com (jade.spiritone.com [216.99.193.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C61K4h086864 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 00:01:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wandap@hevanet.com) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by jade.spiritone.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6C61JSW031873 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:01:20 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:08:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO What am I doing wrong on this link? When I click on it I go to a screen with a nice woodcut of people playing cards. I don't see REALonline. Help! Whine! Regina > > The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ > and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, > mostly from Austria or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting > REALonline, which will open another window. Under Kataloge, > select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A list of names appears, > starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type in "Medea" > and hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex > illustrating the story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the > shift about 10 down. > > Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 03:07:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C77KRM029619 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:07:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5X9d5014257 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:33:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5X94g072922; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:33:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C5W74h072290 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:32:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6C5Yn79010026 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 01:34:51 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040711222313.0246e0f0@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:31:56 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Heck, I had several aunts and uncles in rural Minnesota in the early 50s that had recently acquired household electricity but still had no indoor plumbing. In one case, every summer all the cooking was moved out to the 'summerhouse' during July and August to keep kitchen heat from making the house unbearably hot. During canning season, the fire was kept going from morning 'til night boiling the canning jars and blanching the fruits and vegetables for stocking the larder for winter. As a child, I spent untold hours helping my mother can fruits and vegetables and stacking the jars on endless shelves in the basement, where they would stay cool but not freeze. Before air conditioning was invented, summer kitchens made excellent sense. Katie At 11:44 PM 7/11/2004 -0400, you wrote: > In the 18th century >a larger household might have had a summer kitchen in an outbuilding, if the >arrangements at Colonial Williamsburg can be trusted in this detail. > >In the 19th century Midwest, summer kitchens were found. The family >homestead of my ex-husband had one, made of stone which might have been >cooler inside. > >but what she >found was a source which told her that 1: med/ren people didn't love >their children until the kids were 10 or so because most didn't survive > >What she found was probably a book by Philippe Aries called Centuries of >Childhood. At one point (like when I was in college), this was considered >great new modern stuff because it got European history away from wars and >kings and into the lives of everyday people. Many people (especially my >classmates) however found his conclusions that children were not valued in >the Middle Ages and that childhood was not considered distinct from the >rest of life rather controversial. My opinion was formed in the first >chapter of the book when he describes the winter scene in the Tres Riches >Heures with the peasants sitting around the fire as three women. Because >of the clothing difference, I had just assumed there was a man in there so >I got down my copy and found that 2 of the 3 have their skirts kilted up >and were not wearing underwear. I decided that a person who couldn't tell >a man from a woman when the genitals are on display probably couldn't be >trusted to know about anything else either. > >Janet >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 04:18:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C8IBRM020102 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:18:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C8Frd5028824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:15:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C8Fg4g054640; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:15:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com ([212.17.54.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C8Fd4g054554 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:15:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lstrid@mglarc.com) Received: by oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:13:16 +0100 Message-ID: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A648A@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> From: Lena Strid To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 509 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:13:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Elizabeth Wincott Heckett - Headcoverings from Viking Age Dublin. www.ria.ie And yes, it's GOOD! /Lena -----Original Message----- From: Sue Clemenger [mailto:mooncat@in-tch.com] Sent: 12 July 2004 06:28 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 509 There's a whole book of viking/dublin headcoverings out now (I've got one sitting on my bookshelf). I ordered mine directly from the Royal Irish Academy (they've got a website). Wasn't cheap--30+ euro, not counting the shipping cost, but it only took a couple of weeks to get all the way to Montana, and it came as part of a pretty big box, since I kinda indulged in some of their other publications with my tax refund . It's a completely cool book....scarves and caps and all *kinds* of stuff! --sue SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > There are some things which might have been worn under headrails and > veils - The Coppergate Viking cap, and Viking headscarves are > possibilities > > Viking head scarves? I would be thrilled to learn that any have been found. > Please advise! > > Nancy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ================================================= Margaret Gowen & Co. Ltd. Archaeological Consultants & Project Managers 2 Killiney View Tel: 01-2300433 Albert Road Lower Fax: 01-2300865 Glenageary e-mail: archaeology@mglarc.com Co. Dublin website: http://www.mglarc.com ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is private and confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you are not named above as an addressee it may be unlawful for you to read, copy, distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this email. If you are not the intended recipient of this email please contact our systems administrator. Thank you. NOTE Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its associated companies unless otherwise specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 04:19:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C8JURM020285 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 04:19:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C8Hdd5028998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:17:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C8Hc4g055516; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:17:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com ([212.17.54.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C8HY4g055452 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:17:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lstrid@mglarc.com) Received: by oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:15:16 +0100 Message-ID: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A648B@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> From: Lena Strid To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:15:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have only seen them in a centraleuropean context (late 14th - mid 15th century). If you spot them anywhere/anywhen else, please let me know. /Lena -----Original Message----- From: Cynthia J Ley [mailto:cley@juno.com] Sent: 11 July 2004 16:48 To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: Cley@juno.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts Did the medieval English ever wear these? I'm assuming as an undergarment. Someone told me once that they may have been worn under sideless surcoats with the sleeved dress. Arlys ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ================================================= Margaret Gowen & Co. Ltd. Archaeological Consultants & Project Managers 2 Killiney View Tel: 01-2300433 Albert Road Lower Fax: 01-2300865 Glenageary e-mail: archaeology@mglarc.com Co. Dublin website: http://www.mglarc.com ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is private and confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you are not named above as an addressee it may be unlawful for you to read, copy, distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this email. If you are not the intended recipient of this email please contact our systems administrator. Thank you. NOTE Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its associated companies unless otherwise specifically stated. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 05:02:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C92wRM004788 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:02:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C8xud5002581 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:59:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C8xs4g075667; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:59:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C8xo4g075338 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:59:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6C8xeC07694.; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:59:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:59:13 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:58:44 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid and corsets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I read French, but when I call up these urls I only get a picture with no text. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> saragrace@earthlink.net 10/07/2004 04:26:46 >>> I know you all are probably wondering how I put these two subjects together, but I just ran across this during a further search of a site shared on another list. The time period is all wrong with respect to the plaid discussion (and yes, I know this isn't plaid), but I thought the use of the geometric shape on what could be the bias was similar and might be of interest. Maybe they wove this, as is, on the straight.but who knows. Secondly, I don't speak French, but down towards the bottom it says something about the basquine being the ancestor of corsets. Basquine sounds familiar, though I've not looked it up yet.interesting.. http://tinyurl.com/2yn4y http://www.musee-renaissance.fr/images/pages/bitmaps/eco_5_00DE21386.jpg Anyway, enjoy. There are several other textile items of interest as well. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 05:14:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6C9EARM004843 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:14:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C9CLd5003859 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:12:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C9CK4g081863; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:12:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6C9CI4g081638 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:12:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6C9CAC09198.; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:12:10 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:11:43 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:11:11 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO For Victorian irons, see Beatrix Potter's illustrations to "Mrs Tiggywinkle"! Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 07:45:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CBjmRM005654 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:45:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CBgbd5010715 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:42:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CBgU4g053998; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:42:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CBgQ4g053963 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 05:42:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA08722 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:46:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:46:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 509 In-Reply-To: <40F22147.20800@in-tch.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Sue Clemenger wrote: > There's a whole book of viking/dublin headcoverings out now (I've got > one sitting on my bookshelf). I ordered mine directly from the Royal > Irish Academy (they've got a website). That would be this: Viking Age Headcoverings from Dublin, by Elizabeth Wincott Heckett, National Museum of Ireland, Medieval Dublin Excavations 1962-81, ser. B, vol. 6 (Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 2003). ISBN 0954385551. 152 pp., 95 figs., 16 color plates. Elizabeth Heckett is a prominent name in Irish archaeology, and for good reason. I'd seen her talk a few years ago, and finally met her this past spring when she gave a paper for DISTAFF at Kalamazoo on a find of copper buttons in Cork. She also had the headcoverings book with her and had it out for display at our archaeology session, but I only got the barest glimpse of it; Gale Owen-Crocker spirited it away to do a review of it for the first issue of _Medieval Clothing & Textiles_ -- and yes, she agrees it's very cool. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 09:50:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CDoKRM006340 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:50:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CDl9d5017169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:47:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CDl54g020516; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:47:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CDl14g020463 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:47:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from r.carnegie@verizon.net) Received: from Fiona ([207.68.61.153]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040712134701.RAFY3910.out005.verizon.net@Fiona> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:47:01 -0500 From: "Ron Carnegie" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost]hearths Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:46:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040711222313.0246e0f0@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [207.68.61.153] at Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:47:00 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yikes! I missed this the first time through. 18th century Virginia (and this includes Colonial Williamsburg) does not typically have "summer kitchens". A summer kitchen implies a secondary kitchen used in the summer months that is in an out building. In tidewater Virginia, in the third quarter of the 18th century (the period represented by the museum) kitchens were usually separate from the house (except for small houses such as the two room houses used by many poor farmers). This is not true in the later 19th century houses however were one does often find dual kitchens. The kitchens you remember at CW were not summer kitchens, but the only kitchens and a few of them are original, including the one I used to manage and cook within at the Powell House. The kitchen at the Powell was actually built post the period in question ( it is federalist period) the house is 1760s. The believe is that the kitchen was a replacement of the earlier kitchen. It was divided into two rooms, one of which was the kitchen and the other the laundry. The laundry was equipped with its own fireplace and the irons I mentioned earlier as well as a reproduction goffering iron. This little creature was great and I have long lamented no longer having access to it. Nothing presses 18th century wrist and neck ruffles as well or as easily as the tool made for the purpose (go figure)! Cheers, Ron Carnegie Colonial Williamsburg Foundation > > At 11:44 PM 7/11/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > In the 18th century > >a larger household might have had a summer kitchen in an > outbuilding, if the > >arrangements at Colonial Williamsburg can be trusted in this detail. > > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 09:59:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CDxPRM006439 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:59:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CDuQd5017977 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:56:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CDuP4g026115; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:56:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CDuN4g026090 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:56:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bk1I6-0005De-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:56:22 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:56:35 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c46818$0bee0ab0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Regina-you will have to follow the instructions included in the intial post....they are in your message below... :) >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Wanda Pease >Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 11:09 PM >To: Historical Costume >Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts > >What am I doing wrong on this link? When I click on it I go to a screen >with a nice woodcut of people playing cards. I don't see REALonline. > >Help! Whine! > >Regina > > >> >> The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ >> and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, >> mostly from Austria or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting >> REALonline, which will open another window. Under Kataloge, >> select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A list of names appears, >> starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type in "Medea" >> and hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex >> illustrating the story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the >> shift about 10 down. >> >> Janet > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 10:16:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CEGdRM006548 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:16:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CEFqd5019614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:15:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CEFo4g039255; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:15:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CEFj4h039180 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:15:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6CEDctY006362 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:13:38 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F29D0D.1050708@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:15:41 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wanda Pease wrote: > Probably: The Ties That Bound: Peasant Families in Medieval England > by Barbara A. Hanawalt > > While it is perfectly true that these show that some families valued their > children's lives, it also shows that parents were also quite neglectful by > our standards. There are lots of parents today who are neglectful by our standards. I think without statistics (which we're unlikely to get) we can't draw a lot of conclusions. That said, one of the first charges leveled against a culture that one doesn't like, is that they don't treat their children well, or love them, or whatever. The past is treated just as much this way as a modern culture is. I recall a child-minder for a toddler/preschooler in one of the Stratford-on-Avon houses; it was a pole in the floor with a pivot, to which you attached the child so it wouldn't fall into the fire. Seems like a good idea to me! They said it was original, or a repro, I dont' recall which. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Do it, Deligate it, or Drop it. -- vew _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 10:21:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CEL6RM006578 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:21:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CEIjd5019933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:18:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CEIi4g041391; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:18:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CEIB4g040964 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:18:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0130.dialsprint.net ([63.186.144.130]) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bk1dB-0008Ir-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:18:09 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:18:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO on 7/11/04 12:20 PM, Lauren Walker at lauren.walker@comcast.net wrote: > > Since I raised this question about pressing seams, I have been reminded that > some stitchers use a tool like the paper-creasing flat sticks used in > origami or an old-fashioned letter-knife, to crease down seams. It seems to > me that these might have been handier for the home-stitcher to use than > having to go to the kitchen or stove for an iron every time a seam was > turned. What do you think? In TOTAL historical ignorance, I just note that one of the habits our seventh-grade sewing teacher tried to inculcate was "finger-pressing"--i.e., opening out newly-sewn seams (or folding over new darts, turning under facing edges before narrow-hemming, etc.) and then firmly running the thumb or thumbnail over the stitching. I imagine that since our access to irons was severely limited (15 kids or so, one iron!) this enabled us to dispose the seams properly and continue to sew. This would also have been "handy" (oooooh, sorry!) for the home-stitcher, and available since the beginning of time. Maybe my sewing teacher was passing along an ancient technique? But was the original question HOW seams were pressed or whether they were routinely pressed OPEN (sorry, can't find the beginning of this discussion thread)? From time to time I wonder that (but have so far been too busy or lazy to do any research, I admit). Obviously some seams are much easier to manage UNopened because of the cut. But with a straight seam, are the stitches safer (that is, less likely to pull out with fraying) if the seam is pressed open (where the stress would go toward a closed edge) or if it is closed (where some of the stress would go toward a cut edge but the actual seam stitching is less exposed to wear)? For my Girl Scouts sewing badge I learned to do French seams, flat-felled seams, and other "finished" seams, but the question of pressing theory never came up in class or Scouts. When I sew from a pattern I just do whatever I'm told by the directions, which also seems to be the practical choice in most cases. I haven't done a fancy-finished seam since Girl Scouts (except on my sister's wedding dress and on my few excursions into semi-sheer fabrics). I am sometimes (and now with this discussion thread) curious about historical practice. I also realize in the process of THIS posting how much has been lost (per earlier discussions) by cut-backs in home-ec classes. And what are the requirements NOW for the Sewing badge in Girl Scouts? IS there still a Sewing badge? Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 10:42:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CEfxRM006857 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:41:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CEfDd5022396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:41:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CEfA4g057575; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:41:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CEf84g057486 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:41:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004071214410201300j69cre>; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:41:02 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:40:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ron, Thanks very much for correcting my misimpression! But it again leads me back to my original curiosity, which is to try to get a better sense of what proportion of 18th century clothing was sewn by professionals vs. sewn at home by members of the household, and whether the home construction of garments (as opposed to mending, which was doubtless ongoing) when it occurred was seasonal. The question about irons came into my mind because I still can't see running out to the kitchen or down to the kitchen or whatever each time a seam needed to be pressed, and I don't see the kitchen as a really congenial location for a lot of sewing. For laundering, yes -- you'd need to heat the water, etc., anyway, so that makes some sense as a kitchen task. But I was thinking that irons might shed some light on how and when clothes were made. So far instead I've learned that earlier clothing construction techniques probably relied far less on ironing, which is, of course, another answer! So I do very much appreciate your corrections of my misperceptions. I think I'd better go back to lurking now! Lauren > From: "Ron Carnegie" > > Yikes! I missed this the first time through. > > 18th century Virginia (and this includes Colonial Williamsburg) does not > typically have "summer kitchens". A summer kitchen implies a secondary > kitchen used in the summer months that is in an out building. In tidewater > Virginia, in the third quarter of the 18th century (the period represented > by the museum) kitchens were usually separate from the house (except for > small houses such as the two room houses used by many poor farmers). This > is not true in the later 19th century houses however were one does often > find dual kitchens. > > The kitchens you remember at CW were not summer kitchens, but the only > kitchens and a few of them are original, including the one I used to manage > and cook within at the Powell House. > > The kitchen at the Powell was actually built post the period in question > ( it is federalist period) the house is 1760s. The believe is that the > kitchen was a replacement of the earlier kitchen. It was divided into two > rooms, one of which was the kitchen and the other the laundry. The laundry > was equipped with its own fireplace and the irons I mentioned earlier as > well as a reproduction goffering iron. This little creature was great and I > have long lamented no longer having access to it. Nothing presses 18th > century wrist and neck ruffles as well or as easily as the tool made for the > purpose (go figure)! > > Cheers, > > Ron Carnegie > Colonial Williamsburg Foundation > > >> >> At 11:44 PM 7/11/2004 -0400, you wrote: >>> In the 18th century >>> a larger household might have had a summer kitchen in an >> outbuilding, if the >>> arrangements at Colonial Williamsburg can be trusted in this detail. >>> >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 11:22:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CFMaRM011642 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:22:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFJWd5026570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:19:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFJP4g086006; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:19:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web50803.mail.yahoo.com (web50803.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.112]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6CFJL4g085891 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:19:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from albrakat7@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040712151915.64453.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.201.96.140] by web50803.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:19:15 PDT Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:19:15 -0700 (PDT) From: KATHRYN WOLTERS Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 509 To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Also available thru Amazon.com :) Very expensive morning for me---$35 for headcoverings book---(plus 1.99$ 'special book order fee')--plus I finally broke down and bought a copy of the Topkapi Textiles book(second hand)---for the research I've been doing on 16th century Turkish textiles and clothing. Budget is now broke:( You folks are all EVIL influences on me---!! In the nicest possible way, of course!! (big grins) Albra Robin Netherton wrote: On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Sue Clemenger wrote: > There's a whole book of viking/dublin headcoverings out now (I've got > one sitting on my bookshelf). I ordered mine directly from the Royal > Irish Academy (they've got a website). That would be this: Viking Age Headcoverings from Dublin, by Elizabeth Wincott Heckett, National Museum of Ireland, Medieval Dublin Excavations 1962-81, ser. B, vol. 6 (Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 2003). ISBN 0954385551. 152 pp., 95 figs., 16 color plates. Elizabeth Heckett is a prominent name in Irish archaeology, and for good reason. I'd seen her talk a few years ago, and finally met her this past spring when she gave a paper for DISTAFF at Kalamazoo on a find of copper buttons in Cork. She also had the headcoverings book with her and had it out for display at our archaeology session, but I only got the barest glimpse of it; Gale Owen-Crocker spirited it away to do a review of it for the first issue of _Medieval Clothing & Textiles_ -- and yes, she agrees it's very cool. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 11:29:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CFTkRM011692 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:29:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFQgd5027425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:26:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFQf4g091599; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:26:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts6.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.164]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFQd4g091491 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:26:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.68.137.45]) by simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040712152625.EPUN10364.simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:26:25 -0400 Message-ID: <009d01c46824$7441d7c0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407111548.i6BFmDal061684@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Johannes berries Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:01:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Just a quick addition: Service berries are also known as Saskatoon berries in the Western part of Canada at least. That was the local native name for the berry. Sheridan (who used to live in the city of Saskatoon, in Saskatchewan. :-) ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Farmer" To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 11:48 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Johannes berries > Hey, that's ok. We have several things to look for now ... :-) > > > > > Oops. replied before I looked through the email on this. :P > > > > De > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 11:57:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CFvlRM011855 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:57:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFv7d5001056 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:57:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFv44g015753; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:57:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFup4g015572 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:56:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6CGS55c071845 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:28:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6CGS5P7071844 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:28:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407121628.i6CGS5P7071844@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 509 In-Reply-To: <40F22147.20800@in-tch.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > There's a whole book of viking/dublin headcoverings out now (I've got > one sitting on my bookshelf). I ordered mine directly from the Royal > Irish Academy (they've got a website). Wasn't cheap--30+ euro, not > counting the shipping cost, but it only took a couple of weeks to get > all the way to Montana, and it came as part of a pretty big box, since I > kinda indulged in some of their other publications with my tax refund . > It's a completely cool book....scarves and caps and all *kinds* of stuff! > --sue Silly Sue (said the other Susan -- er one of the other Susan's) You forgot the *name* of the book! Jerusha (in the SCA) > > SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > > > There are some things which might have been worn under headrails and > > veils - The Coppergate Viking cap, and Viking headscarves are > > possibilities > > > > Viking head scarves? I would be thrilled to learn that any have been found. > > Please advise! > > > > Nancy > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 12:00:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CG0rRM011883 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:00:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CG00d5001432 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:00:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFxx4g018083; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:00:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CFvI4g015965 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:57:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07498 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:57:17 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Norris sources Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:57:17 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <40F1EDBC.6040001@thibault.org> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There were books, pamplets, and other advice(usually written by people without children)during the Middle Ages to the 18th century advising parents not to love their children too much as at least 25% didn't live to the age of ten. Swaddling, of course, was done, supposedly to insure straight limbs and some people carried this to extremes. As for hanging the kid on a peg, it was probably mentioned because it wasn't a common thing(same as practically no recipes for bread and basic cookery of fruits and vegetables because it was something all cooks knew). I could see some poor frustrated, overworked mother swaddling up a kid and sticking them on a peg in order to get something dangerous to a kid underfoot--cooking, candlemaking and soapmaking come to mind--done. As to the not loving their kids too much until a certain age, the Puritans really get blamed against "cherishing" children too much, sparing the rod, spoils the child, etc, but the attitude predates the Reformation and many Puritans, especially those we view as grim old holy terrors, like John Winthrop, Samuel Sewell, and Cotton Mather, kept journals that are full of how they loved their children and wives, worrying over the physical, often more than their spiritual health, and grieved deeply when they died, despite the common "wisdom" of not loving their families "overmuch." Cotton Mather loved his children deeply and believed the worst punishment was not a whipping, but denying his children his company. Critics see this as an example of his ego, but his interests were far from being fixated on witchcraft(he wrote on just about every topic of the day, was interested in everything, and was an advocate of education)so he was probably was fascinating as a parent, although religion probably flavored everything. Samuel Sewell's parenting comes into question as he advocated putting children as young as three to work. A re-reading of his journals shows that he was in favor of exposing children as young as three to a trade, using as an example that three-year olds could learn and loved to apply the decorative brass studs to furniture, for instance, but he wasn't saying young children should be put to day-long labor. In a time and culture that demanded children learn to love to work for a family and community's survival, Sewall's observation made sense. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 12:19:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CGJuRM011998 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:19:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGGod5003712 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:16:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGGh4g032094; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:16:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m17.mx.aol.com (imo-m17.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGGc4g031938 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:16:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.105.4b392810 (4116) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:16:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <105.4b392810.2e24135b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:16:27 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] House of Worth To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, as a couture house, it's back and thriving right now. They have a line of extremely exclusive and expensive lingerie out at the moment. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 12:22:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CGMwRM012037 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:22:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGKqd5004153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:20:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGKn4g035483; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:20:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGIB4h033252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:18:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6CGKv79027278 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:21:03 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:17:56 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance In-Reply-To: References: <40F1EDBC.6040001@thibault.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't know how many of you grew up with parents under the influence of Dr Spock, the eminence gris of parenting in the mid-century, but the dogma was that children should not be breast-fed and that feeding in the middle of the night just trained the child to be demanding. -- - If they didn't get that 2am bottle, they'd learn that they couldn't always have their way and become more self-disciplined when they grew up. At least this is what little I remember from my mother explaining how she raised me. She was a nurse and as Dr Spock was a *doctor*, it followed that everything he said was the truth ... Oh, mom also complained that she had to take some sort of medicine to dry her up because the pain from the milk-engorged breasts was very bad -- such thinking boggles me! all she would have had to do is breast-feed to solve the problem - but no, Dr Spock said breast-feeding was bad! These days we know better about breast-feeding and feeding infants when they're hungry but it seems that we have some other dogmas that are (to me) just as crazy -- like trying to *reason* with a 2-year old. They haven't yet developed reasoning, so trying to explain things reasonably just doesn't work. Now, how can we get this back on-topic? Katie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 12:32:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CGWqRM012114 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:32:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGWCd5005528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:32:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGW94g045153; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:32:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from misc.com (misc.com [130.94.190.243]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGW84g044983 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:32:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from theresa@misc.com) Received: (qmail 78793 invoked by uid 16115); 12 Jul 2004 16:31:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO misc.com) ([67.161.79.174]) (envelope-sender ) by 130.94.190.243 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Jul 2004 16:31:56 -0000 Message-ID: <40F2BD09.6050906@misc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:32:09 -0700 From: Theresa Eacker User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@net.indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] test X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO my apologies...checking if mail is going out at all TEST Theresa EAcker _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 12:50:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CGorRM012157 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:50:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGmad5007235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:48:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGmS4g058614; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:48:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGlL4h057474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:47:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-72.sonic.net [209.148.112.72]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6CGlJ6f021414 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:47:20 -0700 Message-ID: <40F2C1C6.902@lavoltapress.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:52:22 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <200407121628.i6CGS5P7071844@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407121628.i6CGS5P7071844@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: viking/dublin headcoverings X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO _Viking Age Headcoverings from Dublin_ Their full list of publications is on this page: http://www.ria.ie/shop/list.asp Fran Susan Farmer wrote: >>There's a whole book of viking/dublin headcoverings out now (I've got >>one sitting on my bookshelf). I ordered mine directly from the Royal >>Irish Academy (they've got a website). Wasn't cheap--30+ euro, not >>counting the shipping cost, but it only took a couple of weeks to get >>all the way to Montana, and it came as part of a pretty big box, since I >>kinda indulged in some of their other publications with my tax refund . >>It's a completely cool book....scarves and caps and all *kinds* of stuff! >>--sue >> >> > >Silly Sue (said the other Susan -- er one of the other Susan's) >You forgot the *name* of the book! > >Jerusha (in the SCA) > > > >>SNSpies@aol.com wrote: >> >> >> >>>There are some things which might have been worn under headrails and >>>veils - The Coppergate Viking cap, and Viking headscarves are >>>possibilities >>> >>>Viking head scarves? I would be thrilled to learn that any have been found. >>>Please advise! >>> >>>Nancy >>> >>> >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 12:52:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CGqrRM012191 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:52:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGprd5007646 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:51:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGpr4g061574; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:51:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGnG4h059392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:49:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6CGlAtY009241 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:47:10 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F2C10A.7040604@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:49:14 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children References: <40F1EDBC.6040001@thibault.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Katie Pleasance wrote: > I don't know how many of you grew up with parents under the influence of > Dr Spock, the eminence gris of parenting in the mid-century, but the > dogma was that children should not be breast-fed and that feeding in the > middle of the night just trained the child to be demanding. That's interesting, because what I can find online says that Dr. Spock advocated feeding on demand and not scheduling, and this was against the suggested practice at the time. We all keep thinking we know better than what Nature/God/Evolution has designed us for; I suspect we've got similar blind spots today, which we'll find out about in another few decades. > Now, how can we get this back on-topic? Hmm, well, I think we've done "nursing slits" to death, but I can add that the horrible novel I mentioned earlier also spoke of Elizabethan noble everyday wear to be 40-50 pounds of fabric, and that the heroine (taken back in time from now) got so frustrated at the nonexistant bathing that she snuck out in the early morning every day to take a shower in the garden fountain. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 12:54:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CGsSRM012225 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:54:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGpid5007615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:51:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGpi4g061460; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:51:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.mdx.safepages.com (mail1.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CGn54g059211 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:49:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail1.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id E528013D8FC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:49:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust54.tnt1.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.148.54]) by mail1.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1419213D99E for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:48:58 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <00a501c46830$5ff1d660$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c46818$0bee0ab0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:50:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If you click on "Datenbanken" on the left menu, you'll see a list of links, and REALonline is the first link. I had the same problem as you, so I just started clicking on stuff at random. =} -E > >-----Original Message----- > >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On > >Behalf Of Wanda Pease > >Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts > > > >What am I doing wrong on this link? When I click on it I go to a screen > >with a nice woodcut of people playing cards. I don't see REALonline. > >Help! Whine! > >Regina > >> > >> The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 13:09:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CH9PRM012392 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:09:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CH6Id5009476 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:06:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CH6B4g073709; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:06:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CH684g073573 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:06:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.6a.41cef289 (4116) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:05:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <6a.41cef289.2e241ef6@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:05:58 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] King Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Now that it's been out for almost a week, has anyone gone to see it? What are the opinions about how it was done? I went to see it with a friend yesterday afternoon, and I really enjoyed it. There were several elements very obviously borrowed from other movies (Braveheart, Robin Hood Prince of Thieves, Gladiator) and historically it was somewhat weak, but generally I thought it was entertaining and decently done (as entertainment, not as history). But I'm one of those people who's okay with just being entertained by a movie, even if it's not intellectually profound or historically accurate. I will say this about the costuming: It may have been horridly inaccurate, but it was enormously fun :o). Keira Knightly may be the only human in creation who can be got up in a few leather straps and a lot of grease paint, and still somehow convey an earthy, attractive fairy-warrior type persona without making you laugh out loud. And the armor and Saxon clothing was pretty nifty. The Saxon chieftain is, IMO, the absolute thief of the entire movie - he sucks up every scene he's in, and does a spectacular job. Think Hell's Angel meets Viking meets The Godfather. I loved him. There will definitely be lots of people running about faires in the late summer and fall of this year wearing glittery body paint and not much else, but as long as they're enjoying it (and, pray God, in appropriate physical condition for it), oh well! I'm one of the ones who was guilty of showing up in my plaid and blue face paint about six years ago, so ... -Tiffany, who spent the entire movie staring at Joel Edgerton and thinking, "I have GOT to get me one of THOSE." _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 13:12:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CHC0RM012409 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:12:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CHA2d5009947 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:10:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CH9x4g076773; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:10:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CH7b4g074926 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:07:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bk4HA-0001O7-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:07:36 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:07:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c46832$c2ee09d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher without matching ''forpart''or underskirt X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6CHC0RM012409 Status: RO Hi all, I was wondering if any of you have ever seen, have a picture of, etc. of a portrait of Elizabeth Buxton which may have been done around 1590 by Robert Peake. This gown is supposedly loosely based on it; http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/sophie.html I am interested in any othe pictures around the time where the the stomacher doesn't match the main skirt or ''forepart'' petticote. Thanks, Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 13:21:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CHLmRM012456 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:21:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CHLCd5010950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:21:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CHL64g085680; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:21:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CHL04h085600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:21:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6CHNt79011559 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:23:59 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040712095913.024cd188@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:20:53 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance In-Reply-To: <40F2C10A.7040604@thibault.org> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com> <40F1EDBC.6040001@thibault.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children - bathing / clothes washing X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In his later years, Dr Spock did a complete about-face and admitted that his early dogma was wrong. In his early years he was a major advocate of the 'don't spoil the kid by paying attention to it (admittedly a bitter characterization of the philosophy) dogma' that permeated pediatrics early in the 1900s. At least he had the guts in his later years to admit that he had been wrong. Or, at least this is the way I remember my mother explaining her own child-rearing philosophy that she had learned from the popular child-rearing books of the early part of the 20th century, and expressing her regret that she had followed the dogma instead of her maternal instincts. Unfortunately, I, and many others grew up under the early dogma. I wonder if that is why I'm so touch-starved? I crave being touched and can never get enough. My Lord Husband, so wonderful in many other ways, is neither a caresser nor a kisser, alas! >>I don't know how many of you grew up with parents under the influence of >>Dr Spock, the eminence gris of parenting in the mid-century, but the >>dogma was that children should not be breast-fed and that feeding in the >>middle of the night just trained the child to be demanding. > >That's interesting, because what I can find online says that Dr. Spock >advocated feeding on demand and not scheduling, and this was against >the suggested practice at the time. We all keep thinking we know better >than what Nature/God/Evolution has designed us for; I suspect we've got >similar blind spots today, which we'll find out about in another few decades. Where do they get these ideas about cleanliness?!?! Haven't they done *any* research?!?! (rhetorical question) I remember my aunts heating water in buckets on the wood-burning stove for baths. Everybody took their bath in rapid sequence, topping off the wash-tub of cooling water with another bucket of hot water from the stove. For the last one in, the water was pretty well-used! One Aunt had a wood-burning stove with a 'reservoir', which was a built-in water tank with a faucet to drain the heated water from. When I was younger, I had a marvelous Wedgewood gas / wood dual-fuel stove. Best stove I ever had and would pay a small fortune for another one like it. It also had a reservoir, though I never used it. Does anybody know about how medieval / renaissance women washed their clothes? Only washing the chemises makes good sense to me. I know that the main reason that I wash my clothes is to get rid of the odors, not because they are stained or dirtied. >I can add that the horrible novel I mentioned earlier also spoke of >Elizabethan noble everyday wear to be 40-50 pounds of fabric, and that the >heroine (taken back in time from now) got so frustrated at the nonexistant >bathing that she snuck out in the early morning every day to take a shower >in the garden fountain. Katie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 14:31:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CIV5RM013619 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:31:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIT1d5018016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:29:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CISh4g040513; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:28:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CISb4g040442 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:28:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6CIxq5c073351 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:59:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6CIxpik073350 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:59:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407121859.i6CIxpik073350@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher without matching ''forpart''or underskirt In-Reply-To: <000701c46832$c2ee09d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Hi all, I was wondering if any of you have ever seen, have a picture of, > etc. of a portrait of Elizabeth Buxton which may have been done around 1590 > by Robert Peake. This gown is supposedly loosely based on it; > http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/sophie.html > > > > I am interested in any othe pictures around the time where the the stomacher > doesn't match the main skirt or ''forepart'' petticote. > In googling for that one (which I didn't find) I did run across this one http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownLady39.jpg Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 14:33:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CIXsRM013638 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:33:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIWad5018469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:32:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIWY4g043596; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:32:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net (cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIT74g040833 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:29:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.140.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.140]) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bk5Y1-0004aI-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:29:05 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:27:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407120002.i6C02wq8065101@sabre.goldsword.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yeah, but that's just what I did. Surprisingly enough, it has held up. And this guy was a tall fellow! Grace/Jessamyn > From: Susan Farmer > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:02:58 -0400 (EDT) > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? > >> >> And we think these were woven on the diagonal why? >> Lauren > > Well, I don't think you'd want to have one side on the diagonal and > the other on the straight grain -- I don't think you'd want to have > both sides on the diagonal either -- way too much stretch. > > Jerusha > >> >>> From: Grace Morris >> >>> All of these are fairly complex plaids... >>> >>> http://jessamynscloset.com/plaid.html >>> >>> Grace/Jessamyn >>> who knows very little about weaving... > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 14:34:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CIYURM013642 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:34:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIWjd5018507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:32:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIWi4g043785; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:32:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.suscom.net (smtp2.suscom.net [64.78.83.231]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIVB4h042544 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:31:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp2.suscom.net [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 556841CDD57 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 00915-04 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp2.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id CCA9C1CDD7A for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <04c801c4683e$5055d540$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com><40F1EDBC.6040001@thibault.org><5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20040712095913.024cd188@mail.katiesorchids.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children - bathing / clothes washing Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:30:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katie Pleasance" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children - bathing / clothes washing > In his later years, Dr Spock did a complete about-face and admitted that > his early dogma was wrong. In his early years he was a major advocate of > the 'don't spoil the kid by paying attention to it (admittedly a bitter > characterization of the philosophy) dogma' that permeated pediatrics early > in the 1900s. At least he had the guts in his later years to admit that he > had been wrong. > I actually had a copy of Dr Spock's Baby and Child Care, and nowhere do I recall reading advice to ignore a child. Indeed, his philosophy appeared to be much more "child-led" , and advised "Listen to your heart". Every child is certainly different. I have one who needs frequent hugs/kisses, and simple contact, and one who would really rather not be touched very much. (I kiss him anyway, but not as much as the other.) But where one wants a snuggle, the other wants just a simple, quick kiss on the forehead. Laurensa _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 14:34:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CIYtRM013651 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:34:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIWtd5018533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:32:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIWq4g043878; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:32:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIVl4g042950 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:31:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02520 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:31:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:31:44 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, any advice on raising children usually does influence how they are dressed. From pink for girls and blue for boys in Western culture to pudding caps, leading strings, and swaddling clothes, and dressing them like little adults. And I was one of those that parents did sorta read Dr. Spock and I had to as part of child development courses back in college in the late '70's. My parents didn't think much of Dr. Spock, neither did our family Dr.(Mother's milk is best for babies and they wouldn't cry for that 2am feeding if they didn't need it, etc), and after years of baby-sitting I thought he was crazy too! BTW: Some 2-3 year olds can be reasoned with if you explain it on their level. This is mostly successful(in my experience only)with first-born children and grandchildren who are surrounded by adults-only families who pay them lots of attention. You have to think like a kid that age; everything is very literal(and delightfully black/white; right or wrong in the 3-4 age group.). And of course, there is the "because I said so" and one gentle slap on the well-padded with diaper bottom if all else fails. Cindy Abel Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 14:45:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CIj4RM013710 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:45:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIgSd5019601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:42:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIgM4g051097; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:42:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net (cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIeb4g049795 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:40:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.140.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.140]) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bk5jA-0007L6-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:40:37 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:39:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <40F21F0D.7000406@in-tch.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > It's a fun puzzle to poke at, at the very least. One of the things that > makes study and recreation of clothing from earlier times so > simultaneously fascinating and frustrating.... > --sue, who loves fabric puzzles ;o) > And I can't wait to see what you come up with. I'm really not into construction at this time, just concentrating on getting things written up (like my Basque information, which I have postponed for too long) and sending for more books. But I agree that the joy is in the puzzle. For me, it would be incredibly boring if we had all the garments in hand, and all we did was design new ones... To each his own, Grace/Jessamyn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 14:46:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CIkCRM013715 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:46:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIggd5019631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:42:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIgf4g051379; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:42:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIfj4g050689 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:41:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12585 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:41:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:41:44 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6a.41cef289.2e241ef6@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Keira Knightly's warrior costume was done at the insistence of the director who wanted to showcase the actress's torso, presumably for the delectation of all the 12-15 year old boys in the audience who apparently are the biggest slice of the movie-going pie. Neither the costume designer or Knightly liked that costume or the "paint" that went with it. And as for going to a movie for beefcake appreciation...well we girls can do it too, even though we can appreciate even if our objects are covered from chin to foot, especially if said costume is historically accurate. And when was the last good historical movie set from 1370 through the Rennaissance when men had most of the great clothes? Cindy Abel Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 14:49:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CIniRM013867 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:49:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CImhd5020241 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:48:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CImf4g056059; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:48:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIkM4g054198 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:46:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.99] (pm7-099.eos.net [205.133.149.99]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CIkFEM015603 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:46:18 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:44:04 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407120533.i6C5XI4h073023@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT: Aragorn X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO on 7/12/04 1:33 AM, h-costume-request@indra.com at h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > Oooh, I don't know. I like that dirty boy look too. My favs-Johnny > Depp and the fellow who played Strider in the Lord of the Rings series (I > don't even know his name...but I bet I could recognize his butt a mile > away!) That's Viggo Mortenson. I think it's very interesting that throughout the three movies and months of wandering in the wilderness, he maintains the EXACT SAME unkempt short beard. I guess Tolkien forget to mention in this books that the Dunedain have very slow-growing hair, as well as long lives. My main thought every time I looked at him was "I hope he combs his hair and takes a bath once he gets to be king." My neighbor Misha looks EXACTLY like him, so I guess I am lucky, getting to see him nearly every day. Misha told me that when he lived in New York Viggo was in a movie (I forget which one) in which he played the devil, and Misha's friends all started saying "Here comes Satan!" whenever they saw him. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 14:56:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CIuTRM014357 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:56:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIrpd5020823 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:53:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIrm4g060099; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:53:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav1.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.105]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIrf4g059943 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:53:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:46:41 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.71 by bay1-dav1.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:46:41 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.71] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com><40F1EDBC.6040001@thibault.org><5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com><5.2.0.9.0.20040712095913.024cd188@mail.katiesorchids.com> <04c801c4683e$5055d540$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children - bathing / clothes washing Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:47:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2004 18:46:41.0601 (UTC) FILETIME=[925D7310:01C46840] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Early Dr.Spock was influenced by Dr. Holt. His early manuals (Spock's) advocated a hands off approach. He later in the 50's did a 360 on this. I was born in 1972 and raised mainly by my grandparents (even though I lived with my parents for the most part) who raised me according to the Holt method. Not fun. Also the kibbutz method (read a copy of History of the Nanny by Jonathan Kerr Hardy) also advocates a hands off method. eBay Period Patterns! http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children - bathing / clothes washing > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Katie Pleasance" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 1:20 PM > Subject: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children - bathing / clothes washing > > > > In his later years, Dr Spock did a complete about-face and admitted that > > his early dogma was wrong. In his early years he was a major advocate of > > the 'don't spoil the kid by paying attention to it (admittedly a bitter > > characterization of the philosophy) dogma' that permeated pediatrics early > > in the 1900s. At least he had the guts in his later years to admit that he > > had been wrong. > > > I actually had a copy of Dr Spock's Baby and Child Care, and nowhere do I > recall reading advice to ignore a child. Indeed, his philosophy appeared to > be much more "child-led" , and advised "Listen to your heart". > > Every child is certainly different. I have one who needs frequent > hugs/kisses, and simple contact, and one who would really rather not be > touched very much. (I kiss him anyway, but not as much as the other.) But > where one wants a snuggle, the other wants just a simple, quick kiss on the > forehead. > > Laurensa _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 15:00:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CJ0CRM014597 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:00:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIund5021118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:56:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CIum4g062495; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:56:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CItI4g061225 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:55:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be8e.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.142]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2992647FE79 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:55:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <005801c46841$ce81ea00$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:55:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] historic ironing X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Dont you perhaps think that if the iron is hard to get by, you make all your stitching as much as you can, and then walk to wherever you could iron and do it? At the Artschool where i taught to sew, the tailor told us to make as much work as possible before ironing. At a danish manorhouse where i have ben a lot, the kitchen only has an open fireplace. Last inhabitant died in 1829. I could not imagine they did the ironing down in the cellar in the kitchen, two messy, but perhaps in some of the chambers upstairs. They have fireplaces there, and perhaps they could heat the irons there. This is a manor house and not a peassants house, so i would asume that the lord of the house could afford to have a fire even in the summertime. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 15:02:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CJ27RM014720 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:02:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJ1Ad5021563 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:01:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJ184g066145; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:01:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJ144g066065 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:01:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be8e.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.142]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 94FE447FE19 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:01:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <009601c46842$a1086a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c467bc$7b0b30a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> <40F2220C.10200@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:01:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Viggo Mortensen, What? Is this an american actor? The name is danish! Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Clemenger" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer > Viggo Mortensen. Any misspellings of his name due entirely to keyboard > malfunction from all the drool. > He's also in _Hidalgo_, which I actually saw more than once in the > theatre, and WILL own when it comes out on DVD! > *yummm* > --sue, who has her "Pirates" copy for her Depp fixes ;o) > > Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > > >>>Sg (who is still lusting after Griets boyfriend...am I sick or what?) > >> > >>Only if I'm still sick for lusting after Vermeer, as played by Colin > >>Firth. Your crush is probably healthier! > > > > [Sg] Oooh, I don't know. I like that dirty boy look too. My favs-Johnny > > Depp and the fellow who played Strider in the Lord of the Rings series (I > > don't even know his name...but I bet I could recognize his butt a mile > > away!) > > > > Sg > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 15:09:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CJ9URM015116 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:09:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJ5ad5022185 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:05:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJ5Z4g069966; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:05:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJ5P4g069853 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:05:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6CJah5c073723 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:36:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6CJahMP073722 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:36:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407121936.i6CJahMP073722@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Yeah, but that's just what I did. Surprisingly enough, it has held up. And > this guy was a tall fellow! Cool! So it didn't stretch out of shape or go all wierd on you, huh. Did you do both on the bias or just one side bias? Jerusha > >> And we think these were woven on the diagonal why? > >> Lauren > > > > Well, I don't think you'd want to have one side on the diagonal and > > the other on the straight grain -- I don't think you'd want to have > > both sides on the diagonal either -- way too much stretch. > > > > Jerusha > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 15:09:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CJ9tRM015141 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:09:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJ9Ld5022621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:09:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJ9K4g072905; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:09:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJ6D4g070452 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:06:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Bk67u-000Ete-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:10 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:04:50 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths References: <035301c46775$d3f06c40$97725651@bella> In-Reply-To: <035301c46775$d3f06c40$97725651@bella> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Linda Walton wrote >> (snip) >> I remember reading somewhere about glass or stones that were used for >> "smoothing stones" for ironing and polishing cloth prior to the 18th >> Century. >> (snip) > >There are these Viking finds >http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/Archives/vikings/home.html >in the Hunterian Museum in Glasgow. > >The interpretation of them as for ironing clothes seems a bit odd to me, but >I know very little about the period. > >And I always have trouble distinguishing whether such articles are for >smoothing clothing, or for the more important wet finishing and hard >pressing of cloth new from the loom. > >Yours sincerely, >Linda Walton. > It seems strange to me that the glass object should be abraded, if its purpose was for smoothing cloth - unless the abrasion is just from general kicking about the house, rather than from use. I have (once) tried pressing seams in wet linen with a smooth stone heated in the fire. It wasn't that successful, but good enough that I could see how someone more accustomed to it could make it work. I just held the stone in a few layers of scrap cloth. For heating a flat-iron in the house, could they perhaps have used a small brazier rather than have to light a full fire, in the summer? Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 15:25:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CJPKRM016322 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:25:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJIXd5023609 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:18:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJID4g079993; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:18:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJHq4g079703 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:17:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from aquazoo@patriot.net) Received: from webmail.patriot.net (vanburen.patriot.net [209.249.176.8]) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id i6CJHoHe010042 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:17:50 -0400 Received: from 64.156.242.54 (SquirrelMail authenticated user aquazoo) by webmail.patriot.net with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2160.64.156.242.54.1089659870.squirrel@webmail.patriot.net> In-Reply-To: References: <6a.41cef289.2e241ef6@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [h-cost] King Arthur From: aquazoo@patriot.net To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Keira Knightly's warrior costume was done at the insistence of the > director Right out of the Xena school of costume! I thought the dresses she wore earlier were plausible, considering that she probably borrowed from the Roman lady. The "Woads" were about what I would expect, but wouldn't they have been gone by that time in history? I really liked the trebuchets they used, though. I confess I'm not that familiar with what the plot should have been, my frame of reference is the movie "Excalibur" and general knowledge. I don't want to spoil anything for those who have not seen it yet, but the plot seemed very different than the usual. Interesting that the knights looked like Romans only slightly unkempt, and the Roman family were dressed about how I would expect. -Carol _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:02:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CK28RM018062 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:02:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CK1Fd5028167 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:01:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CK034g013497; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:00:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJul4g010952 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:56:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bk6uq-0003qd-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:56:44 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:56:58 -0700 Message-ID: <001801c4684a$63d9e730$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <009601c46842$a1086a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer- X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO His real name is Frank T. Hopkins. While it is not unusual for actors to change their names, I was surprised that it was stated that way on this website http://hidalgo.movies.go.com/main.html (you must go to cast and Crew) Here he is just (http://www.lordoftherings.net/film/cast/ca_vmort.html) Viggo Mortensen. But Bjarne-remember who most of us decend from! I bet there are a few Americans named Bjarne! I know a fellow here named Jens..(is that Swedish?). Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:02:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CK2MRM018065 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:02:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJuVd5027716 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:56:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJtE4g009697; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:55:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f38.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.88]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CJtC4g009604 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:55:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:55:06 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:55:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:55:06 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2004 19:55:06.0539 (UTC) FILETIME=[211947B0:01C4684A] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: King Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com >Now that it's been out for almost a week, has anyone gone to see it? What >are the opinions about how it was done? Personally, I think that any movie that dresses Keira Knightley like that can be forgiven any flaws of accuracy or plot :) Marc (what can I say? I'm so shallow I'm deep...) _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:09:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CK93RM018077 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:09:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CK50d5028579 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:05:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CK3n4g016632; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:03:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CK384g015995 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:03:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.172] (pm5-172.eos.net [205.133.149.172]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CK30EM009283 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:03:01 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:00:50 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407121800.i6CI0H4h017486@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT: John Winthrop X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cindy Abel wrote: > Critics see this > as an example of his ego, but his interests were far from being fixated on > witchcraft(he wrote on just about every topic of the day, was interested in > everything, and was an advocate of education)so he was probably was > fascinating as a parent, although religion probably flavored everything. But this is the whole philosophy behind "time out" -- when children are bad, you make them sit by themselves for a bit, because what they really want is attention from the parent and being in the middle of everything. Maybe John Winthrop was ahead of his time in childrearing! Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:11:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CKBWRM018081 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:11:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CK8bd5029014 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:08:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CK7T4g019592; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:07:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CK7O4g019495 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:07:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.172] (pm5-172.eos.net [205.133.149.172]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CK6uEM010547 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:06:59 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:04:46 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407121800.i6CI0H4h017486@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] re: Doctor Spock and novel X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I read that book! The part I did like was when the heroine came back from Elizabethan times and ate a huge meal because she was used to eating so much. That was fun. I forgot the costume stuff (mabye purposefully!) but I do remember how the heroine "saved" the baby by taking it out of its swaddling. I remember thinking that if that were true, it's amazing anyone lived past the 1600s. And yet, here we are. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:17:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CKHWRM018107 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:17:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKGnd5000145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:16:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKFb4g026250; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:15:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from lioness.futureautomation.com (c-67-161-93-223.client.comcast.net [67.161.93.223]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKB44h022302 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:11:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from colleen.mcdonald@comcast.net) Received: from cognospc (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lioness.futureautomation.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id i6CKAvJv028161 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:10:58 -0700 Message-ID: <026601c4684c$4bbb8440$1b03010a@mackie.com> From: "Colleen McDonald" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001801c4684a$63d9e730$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer- Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:10:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO > His real name is Frank T. Hopkins. While it is not unusual for actors to > change their names, I was surprised that it was stated that way on this > website http://hidalgo.movies.go.com/main.html (you must go to cast and > Crew)>> Just to clarify, Frank T. Hopkins is the name of the character that he plays in the movie, not his real name. His real name is Viggo Peter Mortensen. (www.imbd.com mini-biography). Colleen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:18:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CKI3RM018115 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:18:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKFSd5029769 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:15:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKDF4g024116; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:13:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKAC4g021738 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:10:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from reddawn.net (js.reddawn.net [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC854264A for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:33:21 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <40F2F04D.7020105@reddawn.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:10:53 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Can anyone tell me, roughly, when metal began to be used _regularly_ as support in women's corsets? From what I have found, there were precious metal busks in use during the 1700's, and metal fasteners were attached to front and back busks (or busk-like pieces) in the early or mid 1800's. In the first case that would have restricted metal busks to the extreme upper class, and in the second the primary boning was still reed or whalebone. Was "steel" ever used in place of that reed and whalebone, or is the "steel corset" a ren-faire myth? Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:31:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CKVWRM018222 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:31:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKTSd5001484 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:29:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKRE4g035912; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:27:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav9.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.113]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKR84g035817 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:27:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:55:25 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.80 by bay1-dav9.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:24:35 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.80] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40F1EDBC.6040001@thibault.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:24:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2004 19:55:25.0492 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C654740:01C4684A] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually you should do some research Dr. Holt. Dr. Spock's forerunner. eBay Period Patterns! http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- > I don't know how many of you grew up with parents under the influence of Dr > Spock _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:36:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CKakRM018237 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:36:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKXPd5001974 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:33:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKWC4g039919; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:32:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41511.mail.yahoo.com (web41511.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.94]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6CKVd4g039472 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:31:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celtic_dragonrider@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040712203133.78318.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.82.52.78] by web41511.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:31:33 EDT Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:31:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Janet Renzetti Subject: Re: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <40F2F04D.7020105@reddawn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO SOme time ago I picked up a book on the history of corsets in a book store, didn't buy though. One of the earliest corsets was simply a metal, I suspect steel, cage that was hinged on one side and locked on he other. I think I saw the date being 15th century, but it could have been earlier. THere was no material to it, simply a cage looking thing. Not something I would opt to wear, heavy canvas and some light plastic boning is about all I want for me. The picture is still vivid in my mind. I haven't seen the book since. It was at CHapters. http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0300099533/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-0814891-8763330#reader-page Check this out from Amazon the book is called The Corset: A Cultural History. Janet Dawn wrote: Can anyone tell me, roughly, when metal began to be used _regularly_ as support in women's corsets? >From what I have found, there were precious metal busks in use during the 1700's, and metal fasteners were attached to front and back busks (or busk-like pieces) in the early or mid 1800's. In the first case that would have restricted metal busks to the extreme upper class, and in the second the primary boning was still reed or whalebone. Was "steel" ever used in place of that reed and whalebone, or is the "steel corset" a ren-faire myth? Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:41:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CKfdRM018278 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:41:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKf2d5002903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:41:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKdn4g045935; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:39:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav14.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.118]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKdg4g045820 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:39:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:59:41 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.75 by bay1-dav14.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:51:41 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.75] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407102203.i6AM3MWR054940@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] EarlyMedievalCorsets???? Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:51:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2004 19:59:41.0554 (UTC) FILETIME=[C5053D20:01C4684A] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Don't forget bookfinder.com eBay Period Patterns! http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Farmer" To: Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 6:03 PM Subject: Re: Alphonso's book clothing was RE: [h-cost] EarlyMedievalCorsets???? > > On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > > > > > That's what I get from posting before catching up. Danielle--do you > > > have the title of that book we looked at with all the cool Spanish > > > stuff (I'd like to order it, anyway...)? > > > > If it's the one we've been talking about, with the pictures of the grave > > garments, I've just dug it out: > > > > "Museo de Telas Medievales, Monasterio de Santa Maria la Real de Huelgas > > Burgos," Concha Herrero Carretero. Madrid: Patrimonio Nacional, 1988. ISBN > > 84-7120-127-5. > > Ah. ILL here I come! My university library doesn't have this book. > > Thanks! > > Jerusha (who does *bad* spanish) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:46:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CKkwRM018288 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:46:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKiLd5003236 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:44:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKhB4g048658; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:43:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKei4h046679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:40:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6CKcctY011383 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:38:38 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F2F74A.9010402@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:40:42 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: Doctor Spock and novel References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Gail & Scott Finke wrote: > heroine "saved" the baby by taking it out of its swaddling. I remember > thinking that if that were true, it's amazing anyone lived past the 1600s. Yeah! I won't go into details, but any recent parent can tell you exactly what bad diaper rash is like; the situation described would have resulted in death from sepsis, I think. Not to mention the engineering. Here we have (allegedly) a 20 pound wriggling lump, and we have to have swaddling bands and a wall peg strong enough to hang it up vertically. I don't think so! It would take a special harness.... By the time kids were able to walk, they would be out of swaddling -- hence the several pictures of toddlers in medieval walking frames; very cute. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 16:58:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CKwiRM018350 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:58:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKtZd5004574 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:55:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKsH4g057733; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:54:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKsE4g057697 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:54:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scourney@nwlink.com) Received: from susan (ip157.usw235.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [207.202.235.157]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 66E9C6DF23 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00e901c46853$5005ace0$0200a8c0@susan> From: "Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001801c4684a$63d9e730$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer- Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:00:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO uhmm no, His name really is Viggo - Frank T. Hopkins is the person he played in that movie. He has a Danish father. I remember him in Witness - thought he was better looking then Harrison Ford oddly enough. The movie he played the devil in was The Prophecy (which I only watched for the first time recently and the fact that Middle Earth is now run by Satan caused a ceratin amount of amusement.) Yes, I am attracted to men who badly need a bath and a shave. Well - who look like it at least. Here in the northwest we have a lot of Scandinavians. My son's Great grandmother was Ragna (from Norway). My Boyfriend's last name is Gunnarson (and as his great-aunt pointed out to him, he comes from good lowland stock). Susan > > His real name is Frank T. Hopkins. While it is not unusual for actors to > change their names, I was surprised that it was stated that way on this > website http://hidalgo.movies.go.com/main.html (you must go to cast and > Crew) > > > Here he is just (http://www.lordoftherings.net/film/cast/ca_vmort.html) > Viggo Mortensen. > > But Bjarne-remember who most of us decend from! I bet there are a few > Americans named Bjarne! I know a fellow here named Jens..(is that > Swedish?). > > Sg > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:00:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CL0iRM018362 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:00:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKwtd5004926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:58:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKvg4g060393; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:57:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.suscom.net (smtp2.suscom.net [64.78.83.231]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CKvJ4h060115 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:57:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp2.suscom.net [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7E9C1CDEE8 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 19760-09 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp2.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E1C51CDE0C for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00a701c46852$6a0cfea0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <001801c4684a$63d9e730$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer- Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:54:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 3:56 PM Subject: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer- > > His real name is Frank T. Hopkins. While it is not unusual for actors to > change their names, I was surprised that it was stated that way on this > website http://hidalgo.movies.go.com/main.html (you must go to cast and > Crew) Pity they made the website info impossible to read. With the background constantly changing, I couldn't read it at all! BTW, I accidentally sent a post earlier signed with my SCA name, Laurensa. My apologies. It's that kind of a day..I have also lost my glasses. Completely and utterly lost them. Bugger it. Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:05:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CL5kRM018410 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:05:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CL3ad5005470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:03:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CL2N4g064185; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:02:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CL0f4h062772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:00:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6CKwYtY011622 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:58:34 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F2FBF6.4010809@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:00:38 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? References: <20040712203133.78318.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040712203133.78318.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Janet Renzetti wrote: > SOme time ago I picked up a book on the history of corsets in a book store, didn't buy though. One of the earliest corsets was simply a metal, I suspect steel, cage that was hinged on one side and locked on he other. I think I saw the date being 15th century, but it could have been earlier. THere was no material to it, simply a cage looking thing. Not something I would opt to wear, heavy canvas and some light plastic boning is about all I want for me. The picture is still vivid in my mind. I haven't seen the book since. It was at CHapters. Check the archives of this list; I know that a couple of very educated folks have expounded on the metal corsets -- I think their conclusions were 1: corrective garments, as for scoliosis, 2: possible trade signage 3: fetish wear. Or some combination of all of these. I don't believe that anyone decided these were normal corsets. cv _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:07:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CL7vRM018423 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:07:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CL5Rd5005622 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:05:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CL3k4g065405; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:03:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CL1I4g063269 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:01:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from reddawn.net (js.reddawn.net [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 947004264A for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:24:31 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <40F2FC4B.3080007@reddawn.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:02:03 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? References: <20040712203133.78318.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040712203133.78318.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Janet Renzetti wrote: > SOme time ago I picked up a book on the history of corsets in a book store, didn't buy though. One of the earliest corsets was simply a metal, I suspect steel, cage that was hinged on one side and locked on he other. I think I saw the date being 15th century, but it could have been earlier. THere was no material to it, simply a cage looking thing. Not something I would opt to wear, heavy canvas and some light plastic boning is about all I want for me. The picture is still vivid in my mind. I haven't seen the book since. It was at CHapters. > http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0300099533/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-0814891-8763330#reader-page > Check this out from Amazon the book is called The Corset: A Cultural History. > Thanks. Got that one. Lovely pictures, but the author constantly refers to corsets as "torture devices", and the rest of her text is heavy on anectdotes and light on historical details. She also tends to use 19th century paintings as sources for her early centuries. Still, great pictures of stuff I haven't seen elsewhere. The 'cage' in that picture is suspected of being an orthopedic device, though I can't image anyone in an iron corset for very long, even without a crooked back. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:13:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLDaRM018450 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:13:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLA1d5006145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:10:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CL9v4g070400; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:09:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav12.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CL4e4g066010 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:04:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:24:06 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.67 by bay1-dav12.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Sun, 11 Jul 2004 14:39:13 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.67] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000901c4671d$a96704f0$0200a8c0@MOM> Subject: Re: [h-cost] House of Worth Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:39:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2004 20:24:06.0921 (UTC) FILETIME=[2E727F90:01C4684E] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://www.paralumun.com/fashionworth.htm eBay Period Patterns! http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- Does anyone know when the House of Worth went out of business? I have documentation that his sons passed away in 1924 & 1926. Did the design house continue on business after the sons deaths? Or did it close immediately? I do recall a few years ago on h-costume, someone mentioned that the old building, where the Worth business was in Paris, was going to be torn down at the time. The list member was hoping someone had an idea of how to save the building. Does anyone know if the building was actually destroyed? Penny E. Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:15:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLFZRM018459 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:15:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLDDd5006494 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:13:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLDB4g073027; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:13:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from uni08mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni08mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLA84g070527 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:10:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from david_serxner@ncsu.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uni08mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i6CLA4en010056 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uni08mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (uni08mr.unity.ncsu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 09952-03 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ncsu.edu (acq-gss4421.lib.ncsu.edu [152.1.24.106]) by uni08mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i6CLA4Xs010052 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F2FE2D.3040402@ncsu.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:10:05 -0400 From: David Serxner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? References: <20040712203133.78318.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> <40F2FC4B.3080007@reddawn.net> In-Reply-To: <40F2FC4B.3080007@reddawn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kent State's Art Museum has an 18th century metal corset that they label as possibly being a shop sign. http://dept.kent.edu/museum/costume/bonc/4subjectsearch/lingerie/lingerie18th/lingerie18.html It is just a great site period. David Dawn wrote: > Janet Renzetti wrote: > >> SOme time ago I picked up a book on the history of corsets in a book >> store, didn't buy though. One of the earliest corsets was simply a >> metal, I suspect steel, cage that was hinged on one side and locked >> on he other. I think I saw the date being 15th century, but it could >> have been earlier. THere was no material to it, simply a cage >> looking thing. Not something I would opt to wear, heavy canvas and >> some light plastic boning is about all I want for me. The picture is >> still vivid in my mind. I haven't seen the book since. It was at >> CHapters. >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0300099533/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-0814891-8763330#reader-page >> >> Check this out from Amazon the book is called The Corset: A Cultural >> History. >> > > > Thanks. Got that one. Lovely pictures, but the author constantly > refers to corsets as "torture devices", and the rest of her text is > heavy on anectdotes and light on historical details. She also tends to > use 19th century paintings as sources for her early centuries. Still, > great pictures of stuff I haven't seen elsewhere. > > The 'cage' in that picture is suspected of being an orthopedic device, > though I can't image anyone in an iron corset for very long, even > without a crooked back. > > > > Dawn > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- David Serxner NCSU Libraries Acquisitions Dept. Serials and Electronic Resources Campus Box 7111 Raleigh, NC 27695-7111 919-513-3355 office 919-515-7292 fax _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:18:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLIFRM018496 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:18:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLGPd5006880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:16:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLGO4g075601; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:16:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLFv4g075232 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:16:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pandoraf@verizon.net) Received: from outgoing.verizon.net ([192.168.1.1]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040712211556.LOER1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:15:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Historical Costume , "Historical Costume" Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer- Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:15:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [192.168.1.1] at Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:15:56 -0500 Message-Id: <20040712211556.LOER1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO and he is Danish - his father (Viggo Mortensen Sr) is Danish, his mother American > > From: "Colleen McDonald" > Date: 2004/07/12 Mon PM 01:10:36 PDT > To: "Historical Costume" > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer- > > > His real name is Frank T. Hopkins. While it is not unusual for actors to > > change their names, I was surprised that it was stated that way on this > > website http://hidalgo.movies.go.com/main.html (you must go to cast and > > Crew)>> > > Just to clarify, Frank T. Hopkins is the name of the character that he plays > in the movie, not his real name. His real name is Viggo Peter Mortensen. > (www.imbd.com mini-biography). > > Colleen > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Crinoc Triall Barony of Aquaterra mka Pandora Fitzpatrick Everett, WA www.slighe.com Dance like nobody's watching; love like you've never been hurt; sing like nobody's listening; live like it's heaven on earth. ~Mark Twain _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:30:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLUvRM018567 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:30:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLT2d5008504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:29:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLSl4g085996; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:28:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net (invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.254]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLSc4g085854 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:28:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ckbonder@earthlink.net) Received: from sdn-ap-001tnnashp0163.dialsprint.net ([63.185.0.163] helo=earthlink.net) by invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bk8LY-0000aH-91 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:28:34 -0700 Message-ID: <410-220047112212829300@earthlink.net> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 2004.1.89.0 (Windows) From: "Christine Bonder" To: h-costume@net.indra.com Subject: Viggo Mortensen was Re: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:28:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 6ebfef0e944f11551aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f240e744d1fc1931aba7370c820c5152350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 63.185.0.163 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My understanding is that Mr. Mortensen is the son of Danish parents. He spent a lot of his youth in South America, I believe. To sort of bring this on Topic. What did folks think of the costumes for him when he played Frank T. Hopkins in Hidalgo? I want to recreate a couple of the outfits for Lady Anne (gorgeous but ridiculously impractical for the Saudi Penisula - especially for a woman who supposedly lived with the Bedouin for years) for my neice who is slim and tall enough to carry them off beautifully. Though I must say I liked the peacock robe she wore when she was trying ot seduce Frank to get him out of the race. Christine Krebs-Bonder Dayton, OH Viggo Mortensen, What? Is this an american actor? The name is danish! Bjarne Christine Bonder ckbonder@earthlink.net Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:36:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLasRM018587 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:36:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLYtd5009189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLYr4g090887; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound20-2.nyc.untd.com (outbound20-2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.20.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6CLYU4g090513 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail20.nyc.untd.com [10.140.30.162]) by smtpout01.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABARGA8YACQ6KMA for (sender ); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:34:14 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCkUwZQJ4qrFiFd4mQu4zaCaZsrWLGh3J5A== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by webmail20.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J2DBFKWH; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:33:16 PDT Received: from [4.158.153.149] by webmail20.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:32:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [4.158.153.149] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "seamstrix@juno.com" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:32:54 GMT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: Doctor Spock and novel X-Mailer: WebMail Version 2.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20040712.143316.28495.275953@webmail20.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 5:2:1752622142 X-MAIL-INFO: 160d112d2061d10ded2070a98d4d391184a9e139553ded39b570951d191d9114d424a51dd1cdd1b099d559d46d997da5bdd4cd7d0455347d644144e425e465a02919ade40175018580603529748071ad312975714d9170a17024a4dd24a41499a414994d614045f50d35f43520e179b4c1353da541fd19fde45105e45180ad5180 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well if she was really nipping out in the brisk English morning to bath in the unheated waters of a garden fountain, she's made of sterner stuff than I!!!! ;-) Karen -- Gail & Scott Finke wrote: I read that book! The part I did like was when the heroine came back from Elizabethan times and ate a huge meal because she was used to eating so much. That was fun. I forgot the costume stuff (mabye purposefully!) but I do remember how the heroine "saved" the baby by taking it out of its swaddling. I remember thinking that if that were true, it's amazing anyone lived past the 1600s. And yet, here we are. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:37:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLbNRM018590 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:37:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLZ8d5009220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:35:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLZ64g091110; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:35:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLVx4g088651 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:31:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040712213157.QALF28276.out007.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:31:57 -0500 Message-ID: <40F3034F.20703@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:31:59 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X References: <200407091703.i69H3K4h099484@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407091703.i69H3K4h099484@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:31:57 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Grace/Jessamyn wrote, tantalizingly: >Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally >got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover >when you finally see the garment in person. Too bad they won't dig up more >royal graves around Europe... > > Aaaaa! I'm jealous. Fess up! Is it *anything at all* like what I've got roughly sketched in my drawings on my site? ( http://bliautlady.50megs.com/finishing.htm , about halfway down under "intital lacing theory sketches") Was I utterly wrong, or did I get close? Fairly dancing with curiosity, Maura/Marguerie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:39:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLdKRM018597 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:39:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLVud5008836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:31:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLVq4g088575; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:31:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLTc4g086785 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:29:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.214.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.214]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bk8Mi-0005C1-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:29:37 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:28:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407121936.i6CJahMP073722@sabre.goldsword.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Cool! So it didn't stretch out of shape or go all wierd on you, huh. > Did you do both on the bias or just one side bias? > > Jerusha All seams are on the bias, but the front and back seams are stabilized against the solid fabric, which is on the straight. Grace/Jessamyn > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:43:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLhQRM018626 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:43:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLgsd5010142 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:42:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLgq4g097283; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:42:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLdb4g094348 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:39:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.d4.111322e5 (4459) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:39:25 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:39:25 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO In a message dated 7/12/2004 1:06:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > There were several elements very obviously borrowed from other movies > (Braveheart, Robin Hood Prince of Thieves, Gladiator) Well that's enough to keep me away. All those films are awful! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:43:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLhqRM018632 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:43:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLhHd5010207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:43:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLhH4g097655; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:43:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-f38.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.11.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLeD4g094878 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:40:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hannah_osa@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:40:07 -0700 Received: from 66.92.22.114 by by7fd.bay7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:40:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.92.22.114] X-Originating-Email: [hannah_osa@hotmail.com] X-Sender: hannah_osa@hotmail.com From: "Hannah Blake" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: Viggo Mortensen was Re: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:40:06 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2004 21:40:07.0197 (UTC) FILETIME=[CC9564D0:01C46858] Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO >My understanding is that Mr. Mortensen is the son of Danish parents. He >spent a lot of his youth in South America, I believe. Danish father (Viggo, Sr.), American mother. He's fluent in (at a minimum) English, Spanish and Danish and writes poetry in each of those languages. He also paints, is a photographer, has his own small publishing company... Quite the Renaissance Man. (No pun intended, honest! ) Peace, Grainne the lurker fangirl :) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access helps fight spam and pop-ups – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:44:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLiQRM018635 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:44:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLhsd5010297 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:43:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLhq4g098068; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:43:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLeB4g094902 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:40:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040712214009.EWMD18566.out011.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:40:09 -0500 Message-ID: <40F3053B.6000902@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:40:11 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails References: <200407091802.i69I204h046837@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407091802.i69I204h046837@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:40:09 -0500 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO I'm a little short on time right now, but one of the next things on my to-do list for updating my 12th century clothing page is an illustrated how-to of how I think the long rectangular veil was worn. It's supposed to cover every style I've found from the very basic "wrap around the head and toss over opposite shoulders" style to the elaborate "sort od wrapped, mostly draped, involving crowns or circlets" styles. I *want* to do pen-and-ink drawings, but will probably do webcam images just to get it /done/ and up for people to use. I'll post a note when it's up, as I'm not sure what my schedule is going to be like. Maura _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:45:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLj0RM018641 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:45:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLh9d5010184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:43:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLh74g097506; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:43:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLdq4g094629 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:39:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bk8Wb-0000RT-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:39:49 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: Re: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer-doiiiii Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:40:03 -0700 Message-ID: <001d01c46858$ca9cc920$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <20040712211556.LOER1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6CLdq4g094629 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO >> Just to clarify, Frank T. Hopkins is the name of the character that he plays >> in the movie, not his real name. His real name is Viggo Peter Mortensen. >> (www.imbd.com mini-biography). >> >> Colleen [Sg] Thank you Colleen, I thought that was weird...duh.... Sg ( who is using the universal sign duh - slap on forhead with heel of hand) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:45:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLj4RM018644 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:45:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLhhd5010273 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:43:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLhe4g097913; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:43:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6CLbl4g092894 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:37:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp03.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.123]) by smtpout03.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABARGBDTAH53EEA for (sender ); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21552 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2004 21:35:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.40.60) by smtp03.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2004 21:35:54 -0000 Message-ID: <029c01c46858$31b3bc50$3c28bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:30:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 15:7:1071021507 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55ofljh2vbtOMCLUxStxo6XCHp4vwUSscbqV Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO Finger pressing is the answer that crossed my mind immediately. It is used as regular practise in quilting. It's quick and uses mother nature's iron, no fire required. Susy ----- Original Message ----- From: "ruthanne baumgartner" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 10:18 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths > on 7/11/04 12:20 PM, Lauren Walker at lauren.walker@comcast.net wrote: > > > > Since I raised this question about pressing seams, I have been reminded that > > some stitchers use a tool like the paper-creasing flat sticks used in > > origami or an old-fashioned letter-knife, to crease down seams. It seems to > > me that these might have been handier for the home-stitcher to use than > > having to go to the kitchen or stove for an iron every time a seam was > > turned. What do you think? > > In TOTAL historical ignorance, I just note that one of the habits our > seventh-grade sewing teacher tried to inculcate was "finger-pressing"--i.e., > opening out newly-sewn seams (or folding over new darts, turning under > facing edges before narrow-hemming, etc.) and then firmly running the thumb > or thumbnail over the stitching. I imagine that since our access to irons > was severely limited (15 kids or so, one iron!) this enabled us to dispose > the seams properly and continue to sew. This would also have been "handy" > (oooooh, sorry!) for the home-stitcher, and available since the beginning of > time. Maybe my sewing teacher was passing along an ancient technique? > > But was the original question HOW seams were pressed or whether they were > routinely pressed OPEN (sorry, can't find the beginning of this discussion > thread)? From time to time I wonder that (but have so far been too busy or > lazy to do any research, I admit). Obviously some seams are much easier to > manage UNopened because of the cut. But with a straight seam, are the > stitches safer (that is, less likely to pull out with fraying) if the seam > is pressed open (where the stress would go toward a closed edge) or if it is > closed (where some of the stress would go toward a cut edge but the actual > seam stitching is less exposed to wear)? For my Girl Scouts sewing badge I > learned to do French seams, flat-felled seams, and other "finished" seams, > but the question of pressing theory never came up in class or Scouts. When I > sew from a pattern I just do whatever I'm told by the directions, which also > seems to be the practical choice in most cases. I haven't done a > fancy-finished seam since Girl Scouts (except on my sister's wedding dress > and on my few excursions into semi-sheer fabrics). I am sometimes (and now > with this discussion thread) curious about historical practice. > > I also realize in the process of THIS posting how much has been lost (per > earlier discussions) by cut-backs in home-ec classes. And what are the > requirements NOW for the Sewing badge in Girl Scouts? IS there still a > Sewing badge? > > Ruth Anne Baumgartner > scholar gypsy and amateur costumer > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 17:59:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CLxdRM018806 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:59:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLwtd5011948 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:58:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLwm4g009799; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:58:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLsD4g006390 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:54:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.47.182]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040712215413.XCSK3910.out005.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:54:13 -0500 Message-ID: <006901c4685a$c8dcdec0$b62f2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Aragorn Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:54:18 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.33.47.182] at Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:54:13 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The movie in which he plays Lucifer is Prophecy with Christopher Walken :) El Movie Buff, B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gail & Scott Finke" To: Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 11:44 AM Subject: [h-cost] OT: Aragorn > > > > on 7/12/04 1:33 AM, h-costume-request@indra.com at > h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > > > Oooh, I don't know. I like that dirty boy look too. My favs-Johnny > > Depp and the fellow who played Strider in the Lord of the Rings series (I > > don't even know his name...but I bet I could recognize his butt a mile > > away!) > > That's Viggo Mortenson. I think it's very interesting that throughout the > three movies and months of wandering in the wilderness, he maintains the > EXACT SAME unkempt short beard. I guess Tolkien forget to mention in this > books that the Dunedain have very slow-growing hair, as well as long lives. > My main thought every time I looked at him was "I hope he combs his hair and > takes a bath once he gets to be king." > > My neighbor Misha looks EXACTLY like him, so I guess I am lucky, getting to > see him nearly every day. Misha told me that when he lived in New York Viggo > was in a movie (I forget which one) in which he played the devil, and > Misha's friends all started saying "Here comes Satan!" whenever they saw > him. > > Gail Finke > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:03:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CM31RM018836 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:03:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CM1rd5012287 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:01:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CM1q4g012268; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:01:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CLwg4g009685 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:58:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12512 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:02:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:02:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? In-Reply-To: <40F2FBF6.4010809@thibault.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > Check the archives of this list; I know that a couple of very educated > folks have expounded on the metal corsets -- I think their conclusions > were 1: corrective garments, as for scoliosis, 2: possible trade > signage 3: fetish wear. Or some combination of all of these. I don't > believe that anyone decided these were normal corsets. IIRC, someone also suggested that at least one artifact was a form used in the making of leather armor. I don't know if that would apply to the one in the book. I think we were talking about the one that has been billed as possibly a shop sign -- it had holes throughout its surface. It was a really interesting conversation. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:06:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CM6WRM018843 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:06:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CM4ed5012587 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:04:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CM4b4g014346; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:04:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CM3g4g013618 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:03:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f9a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.154]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 4572247FE0B for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:03:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <005a01c4685c$1e4c3fd0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <029c01c46858$31b3bc50$3c28bc3f@susyhp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:03:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I am a little late here, but i also uses finger pressing for seams before i iron them. It eases the work considerately. Bjarne Even today i used finger pressing. I have worked friday, saturday and sunday on the weddingdress. Made the boned bodice this weekend with 22 lacing holes in the back, with buttonholestitches. Today i made the sleaves wich are lined with cream silk like the bodice. Tomorrow i shall make some beadwork, it is going to be beaded on top of the sleaves and the neckline. The lady chose a lovely silk, wich is machineembroidered with big sprays of flowers in golden colours. The silk is also printed to look like damask weave. 8 lovely meters of it, 4 widths for the skirt wich is cartridge pleated and supported by a real 18th century style pannier. pictures soon........... Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths > Finger pressing is the answer that crossed my mind immediately. It is used > as regular practise in quilting. It's quick and uses mother nature's iron, > no fire required. > Susy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ruthanne baumgartner" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 10:18 AM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths > > > > on 7/11/04 12:20 PM, Lauren Walker at lauren.walker@comcast.net wrote: > > > > > > Since I raised this question about pressing seams, I have been reminded > that > > > some stitchers use a tool like the paper-creasing flat sticks used in > > > origami or an old-fashioned letter-knife, to crease down seams. It seems > to > > > me that these might have been handier for the home-stitcher to use than > > > having to go to the kitchen or stove for an iron every time a seam was > > > turned. What do you think? > > > > In TOTAL historical ignorance, I just note that one of the habits our > > seventh-grade sewing teacher tried to inculcate was > "finger-pressing"--i.e., > > opening out newly-sewn seams (or folding over new darts, turning under > > facing edges before narrow-hemming, etc.) and then firmly running the > thumb > > or thumbnail over the stitching. I imagine that since our access to irons > > was severely limited (15 kids or so, one iron!) this enabled us to dispose > > the seams properly and continue to sew. This would also have been "handy" > > (oooooh, sorry!) for the home-stitcher, and available since the beginning > of > > time. Maybe my sewing teacher was passing along an ancient technique? > > > > But was the original question HOW seams were pressed or whether they were > > routinely pressed OPEN (sorry, can't find the beginning of this discussion > > thread)? From time to time I wonder that (but have so far been too busy or > > lazy to do any research, I admit). Obviously some seams are much easier to > > manage UNopened because of the cut. But with a straight seam, are the > > stitches safer (that is, less likely to pull out with fraying) if the seam > > is pressed open (where the stress would go toward a closed edge) or if it > is > > closed (where some of the stress would go toward a cut edge but the actual > > seam stitching is less exposed to wear)? For my Girl Scouts sewing badge I > > learned to do French seams, flat-felled seams, and other "finished" seams, > > but the question of pressing theory never came up in class or Scouts. When > I > > sew from a pattern I just do whatever I'm told by the directions, which > also > > seems to be the practical choice in most cases. I haven't done a > > fancy-finished seam since Girl Scouts (except on my sister's wedding dress > > and on my few excursions into semi-sheer fabrics). I am sometimes (and now > > with this discussion thread) curious about historical practice. > > > > I also realize in the process of THIS posting how much has been lost (per > > earlier discussions) by cut-backs in home-ec classes. And what are the > > requirements NOW for the Sewing badge in Girl Scouts? IS there still a > > Sewing badge? > > > > Ruth Anne Baumgartner > > scholar gypsy and amateur costumer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:25:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CMPWRM018932 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:25:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CMO5d5014943 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:24:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CMO14g030864; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:24:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6CMNv4g030735 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:23:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp02.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.122]) by smtpout04.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABARGD5MALJ2WFA for (sender ); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14320 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2004 22:23:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.1.61) by smtp02.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2004 22:23:01 -0000 Message-ID: <031e01c4685e$00545d80$3c28bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040630.231950.-153453295.1.Seamstrix@juno.com><008501c45f8b$a4bb7ce0$1028bc3f@susyhp><003b01c461f1$e5d487e0$4811bc3f@susyhp><000b01c46260$272539b0$1d01bc3f@susyhp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:17:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ContentStamp: 18:9:1692845734 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55ofljh2vbtOMCKKZ1UHXhVwlTldoDa/fN8g X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Heather thanks so much for the La Tene material. I just got a chance to catch up on my email since Wednesday. Wow! It's been a couple hours and I'm still reading! I haven't had a chance to read through all the info yet, but wanted to thank you straight away, sorry my response is so belated. Your research and recommendations have been extremely helpful in my search for celtic/ proto-celtic dress. A friend has even offered to set up her loom for me to try my hand at weaving! I'm so excited! She has experience with card weaving as well, and has cards at the ready. Now if the kids will just be accomodating and go back to school so I can play! Again, a million thanks! Susy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather Rose Jones" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 3:16 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] bronze age celts > Here's Part 2, covering La Tene material. This > isn't as polished up as I'd like, and I expect to > do some more work on both parts at some time in > the future, but if I don't post it now, it's > likely to fall into the Black Hole of "projects > that just need a teensy bit of editing" that > never end up getting done. > > Heather > > ================================== > A BRIEF SURVEY OF SOME SOURCES FOR THE CLOTHING OF LA TENE CELTS > > In the last installment, I looked at the extant > textiles and other evidence for clothing in the > Hallstadt Celtic culture. This bit moves forward > and looks at the La Tene era. This tends to be > the era/culture that supplies the majority of our > ideas and images of "ancient Celts". For > Hallstadt, we have a handful of very fragmentary > textiles, an extremely small number of artistic > representations, the evidence of metallic garment > fasteners/accessories in gravesites, and an > extremely small number of preserved whole objects > from the salt mines. > > For La Tene culture, the types of evidence widen > significantly. In addition to the above types, > we have artistic represntations of the Celts by > other cultures (especially the Romans) as well as > a greater number of human representations by the > Celts themselves, written descriptions by Greek > and Roman authors, and at least extrapolative > evidence of whole garments from contemporary > cultures elsewhere in Europe. I'm not even going > to pretend to cover even a significant minority > of the artistic sources here, much less the > "accessory" archaeology. Consider this more in > the line of a brief outline sketch that suggests > the general shape of the topic. > > I also want to emphasize the lack of homogeneity > across Celtic Europe during this period. As an > example of the potential regionality of styles > (and an example of an in-depth study of one > regional style -- although one slightly out of > the focal area of this article), a very > interesting publication is: > > Garbsch, Jochen. 1965. Die Norisch-Pannonische > Frauentracht im 1. Und 2. Jahrhundert. Munchner > Beitrage zur Vor- und Fruhgeschichte, vol. 5. > > This book examines a clearly distinctive women's > dress style found on grave memorials in Noricum > and Pannonia (roughly the eastern end of the Alps > through western Hungary). Doubtless there were > other distinct and identifiable local styles. > This cautions against blythely taking a brooch > from here, a necklace from there, a belt from > elsewhere, and the dress off a Romanized > divinity, and assuming that we're produced a > historically accurate generic "Celtic" look. > > The richest centers of La Tene archaeology are > not significantly different from the focal areas > of Hallstadt culture (not surprisingly, since > there's plenty of other evidence that the one is > an evolution of the other) with the addition of a > major center slightly more to the northwest in > the Marne/Mosel and Paris regions. And, like > Hallstadt, the sphere of cultural influence was > much broader than that, showing up from the > Carpathians in the east, to Iberia in the west, > to the British Isles in the north, bordered on > the south by cultures of the Mediterranean rim > (including most of Italy) and on the north to > northeast by the lower lying parts of modern > Germany, Poland, and so forth. To keep a > manageable focus for the current article, I'm > going to stick roughly to the swath from Gaul to > Bohemia. In particular, I'm going to leave the > question of connections with the Celtic cultures > of the British Isles for another day. > > The timespan typically given the La Tene label > rounds from the mid 5th to mid 1st centuries BCE, > for all practical purposes ending with Roman > political and social domination. I'm likely to > give the benefit of the doubt for coverage up > through the 1st century CE, simply because the > benefits of some material covered under that span > outweigh whatever changes there may have been in > the latter part due to Roman assimilation. > > As general background reading, I'll once again > recommend general surveys and catalogs that can > include items like: > > Audouze, Francoise & Olivier Buchsenschutz. 1992. > Towns, Villages, and Countryside of Celtic > Europe. Indiana University Press, Bloomington & > Indianapolis. ISBN 0-253-31082-2 > > Although this is primarily about structural > archaeology, it includes a number of useful > time-lines and maps, as well as general > background on the types of artifacts that > archaeologists may deal with. > > Haywood, John. 2001. Atlas of the Celtic World. > Thames & Hudson, London. ISBN 0-500 05109-7 > > Extremely useful for getting a grounding in all the time and space issues. > > Rankin, David. 1987. Celts and the Classical > World. Routledge, New York. ISBN 0-415 15090-6 > > Much more on La Tene than Hallstadt, since it > primarily covers descriptions of the Celts by > classical authors. See more below under the > literary sources section. > > Kruta, V. et al. 1991. Celts. Rizzoli, New York. ISBN 0-8478-1407-6 > > Thick glossy book put together for a museum > exhibition in Venice. (This is much more > extensive than your typical "museum catalog" > publication -- 700 pages and multiple color > photos on most of them.) The majority of the > coverage is La Tene, but it also gives a detailed > survey of the Hallstadt-era sites and major finds. > > Birkhan, Helmut. 1999. Celts: Images of their > culture. Verlag der Osterreichischen Akademie > der Wissenschaften, Vienna. ISBN 3-7001-2814-2 > > Another thick, glossy book with many color > plates. Similar but thinner coverage to Kruta et > al. An unfortunate fondness for using modern > "historic paintings" of Celtic subjects, and > relatively non-rigorous artistic reconstructions, > of which one should be extremely skeptical. Less > text than Kruta et al. -- this book was intended > to accompany a separate text volume ("Kelten: > Versuch einer Gesamtdarstellung ihrer Kulture / > Celts: a general survey of their culture", Vienna > 1997). > > Cunliffe, Barry. 1986. Celtic World. Greenwich > House, New York. ISBN 0-517-61533-9 > > A relatively shallow "coffee table" book, but with a fair number of pictures. > > Koch, John T. ed. 1995. Celtic Heroic Age. > Celtic Studies Publicatio, Malden. ISBN 0 > 9642446-1-6 > > A nice collection of original sources (in > translation) that illustrate various topics of > interest. > > > LITERARY SOURCES > > In general I've used published translations here, > although I've added discussions of the vocabular > when I believe the translator's choice of words > may be misleading to costumers. My Latin is much > stronger than my Greek -- in particular, I > struggled a lot in attempting to identify the > vocabular in Diodorus Siculus that corresponded > to particular parts of the translation. (Part of > this seems to be simply because the Greek text > doesn't correspond well grammatically to any > idiomatic English translation.) > > One thing you may notice is that when Classical > authors described the characteristic clothing of > foreigners, they were primarily interested in > _male_ foreigners. > > Pliny "Natural History" (late/mid 1st c. CE), > Book XXII paragraph 2 -- "Now I notice that some > foreign peoples use certain plants on their > persons both to make themselves more handsome and > also to keep up traditional custom. At any rate > among barbarian tribes the women stain the face, > using some one plant and some another; and the > men too among the Daci and the Sarmatae tattoo > their own bodies [corpora sua inscribunt]. In > Gaul there is a plant like the plantain, called > glastum; with it the wives of the Britons, and > their daughter-in-law, stain all the body, and at > certain religious ceremonies march along naked, > with a colour resembling that of Ethiopians." > > I'm fond of Pliny's discussion of woad (glastum) > usage because it's so different from the typical > image of Celtic woad use. It's women, not > warriors, using it, and as emphasized by the > reference to looking like Ethiopians, they appear > to have been going for an all-over color, not > decorative designs. > > Polybius "History" (2nd c. BCE) 2.28.3-10 -- > [Among the Celtic army] "The Insubres and Boii > were clothed in pants and light cloaks, but the > Gaesatae from conceit and daring threw their > clothing off, and went out to the front of the > army naked, having nothing but their weapons." > [Koch 1995] The tribes mentioned here were in > Cis-alpine Gaul, i.e., in the north of modern > Italy on the southern side of the Alps. > > ibid 21.38.1-6 -- a woman is described as > carrying off the head of an enemy "wrapped in the > folds of her dress". Unfortunately, this doesn't > help us much other than ruling out a relatively > tight fitting garment -- which we could do on > other grounds. > > Diodorus Siculus (mid 1st c. BCE) 5.27.28 -- "The > Gauls are very tall with white skin and blond > hair, not only blond by nature but more so by the > artificial means they use to lighten their hair. > For they continually wash their hair in a lime > solution, combing it back from the forehead to > the back of the neck. ... Some shave their beards > while others allow a short growth, but nobles > shave their cheeks and allow the mustache to grow > until it covers the mouth. The result is a sort > of strainer when they drink." 5.27.29 "Some of > [the Gauls] think so little of death that they > fight wearing only a loincloth [the Loeb > translation has "girdle", but the Greek > "periezosmenous" means something more like > "girded about" rather than being a garment name], > without armor of any kind." 5.27.30 "The Gauls > wear stunning clothing -- shirts which have been > dyed in various colours, and trousers which they > call 'bracae'. They also wear striped cloaks > with a checkered pattern, thick in winter and > thin in summer, fastened with a clasp." [Koch > 1995] The Loeb translation of this last passage, > with key Greek vocabular inserted, is, "The > clothing they wear is striking -- shirts > [xhitosi] which have been dyed [baptois] and > embroidered in varied colours [chromasi > pantodapois dienthismenois - lit. "of various > different colors", there is no word indicating > "embroidery" specifically], and breeches > [anazurisin], which they call in their tongue > 'bracae'; and they wear striped coats [sagous > rhabdotous], fastened by a buckle on the shoulder > [epiporpountai], heavy for winter wear and light > for summer, in which are set checks, close > together [plinthiois puknois -- lit. "close-set > bricks"] and of varied hues [poluanthesi > dieilemmenous - lit. "of many distinct > flowers"???]." Further: "And some of them > gather up their shirts [chitonas] with belts > plated with gold or silver." > > Diodorus seems to be discussion the inhabitants > of Gaul proper, although since he fails to > mention Germans anywhere in his otherwise > exhaustive catalog of peoples, he may be covering > Germania in this category as well. Comparing the > translations here will add some necessary caution > (and I'll add even greater caution about my rough > stabs and the Greek!). The garments of the > nearly-naked warriors might, I suppose, be some > sort of loincloth covering the genitals, but > there are artistic representations that appear to > show warrios wearing only some sort of belt, and > entirely naked below that. The Greek words > translated as "shirts" probably indicate nothing > mores specific than "loose-fitting body garment". > As near as I can tell, the word translated in one > place as "coats" and in the other as "cloaks" > simply means "a covering", and in the light of > artistic evidence should probably be understood > as an unshaped cloak. There is a general > tendency to light upon the description of them as > "striped" and "with close-set squares" (the word > literally means "bricks", so I suppose "checks" > isn't too misleading) as refering to some type of > plaid pattern. I'm willing to go along with this > opinion as highly plausible, especially given > that we do have archaeological textiles from the > period showing at least two-color check patterns > of various types, although nothing at all as > elaborate as modern Scottish tartans. > > Strabo "Geography" (early 1st c. CE) 4.4.3 -- > "[The Belgae] wear 'sagi', let their hair grow > long, and wear tight [but Ross quoting Tierney > has "baggy"] trousers, and instead of normal > tunics wear slit ones that have sleeves and > extend as far down as the private parts and > buttocks. The wool from which they weave the > thick 'sagi' (which they call 'lainai') is coarse > and shaggy, but the Romans, even in the > northernmost regions, raise flocks of sheep, > clothed in skins, with quite fine wool." 4.4.5 > [concerning the Gauls] "Besides simplicity and > spiritedness, there is also much senselessness, > boastfulness, and love of ornament about them; > for not only do they go about wearing gold -- in > the form of necklaces around their throats, and > armlets and bracelets around their arms and > wrists -- but also those having an honourable > rank wear garments that are brightly coloured and > shot with gold." [Koch 1995] The Belgae lived > -- mirabile dictu -- in what is now Belgium > (with some slopping over into south-east > Britain). It's interesting here to notice the > author's explicit contrast of "normal tunics" > with "tunics with sleeves that extend to the > private parts and buttocks" (presumably shorter > than expected, rather than longer). I haven't > yet tracked down the original language, so I > can't weigh in on Koch's "tight trousers" versus > Tierney's "baggy trousers" except to note that my > reflex is to trust Koch. As traces of gold > brocading (most likely of tablet-woven bands) > have been found in archaeological sites, we can > presumably take that part of the description as > accurate. > > ART BY CELTS > > Western Region (Gaul proper) > > Bronze statue of a warrior from Saint-Maur-en > Chausée, 1st c. BCE -- The man wears what appears > to be an unshaped sleeveless tunic reaching to > mid thigh, over which he wears a short > breastplate and a wide belt. The details are not > well enough defined to say anything about lower > body garments. He has a large torque around his > neck, with hair trimmed at medium length, > moustaches, but possibly no beard. [Haywood 2001] > > Bronze statue of a priest(?) from > Neuvy-en-Sullias, 1st c. BCE (classical in style, > so possibly non-native) -- He wears a very loose, > unbelted tunic with medium length sleeves. The > hem falls around his knees and has markings > indicating some sort of decorative band. The > neck opening is relatively small, but the > specific shape isn't visible. He has short curly > hair and non facial hair. [Haywood 2001] > > Bronze statue of a musician(?) from > Neuvy-en-Sullias, (date?) -- The man wears a > close-fitting, long-sleeved tunic reaching to the > upper thigh. A belt sits low on his hips. Both > the tunic and the man's legs are marked with a > large-scale network of lines forming lozenges. > The first temptation may be to interpret this as > representing some sort of bias-cut check pattern, > but this is badly in conflict with what we know > of clothing cuts of the time. A more plausible > interpretation would be that it's a very stylized > and schematic attempt to render a lozenge twill - > for which we have ample evidence. The presence > of the pattern on the legs suggests close-fitting > trousers. The photo in Ross is rather bad, so > details like the feet are not very visible. [Ross] > > Wooden statues, 1st c. BCE, > Saint-Germain-Source-Seine -- The statues are > extremely worn and the only decipherable details > are that one is wearing a floor-length hooded > cloak, while the other is sering a half-length > hooded cloak and the legs are showing (so there's > no floor-length garment under it). [Kruta et al.] > > Epona statue from Luxembourg, date??? -- She > wears a loose, full-length garment that appears > either to have short sleeves or is simply a > rectangle sewn together at the shoulders (which > will produce a short sleeve-like effect). There > appears to be a belt, but no other details are > discernable. [Birkhan] > > Bronze statue of a female divinity wearing a > helmet, from Kerguilly-en-Dineault, date??? -- > She wears a peplos-style garment (the photo ends > just below the waist, but presumably it's full > length), pinned at the shoulders with fibulae and > tied at the waist with a cord-like belt. > [Birkhan] > > Statue of a Gaul from near Auxerre, date??? -- > Although the statue is rather worn, he appears to > be wearing a relatively short tunic-like garment > (sleeve length unclear as the arms are broken > off) with a hood that has been lowered to sit in > fold around his neck. > > Central Region (roughly southern Germany) > > Bronze statue, possibly of a plowman, from Trier > (date?) -- We see the lower part of a loose tunic > ending at mid thigh, over which he wears a short > hooded cloak falling roughly to his waist. There > is no real shaping between the hood and the cloak > -- it appears to be made by folding something > like a half circle in half, sewing a short > distance together at the point (forming a peak), > then leaving a space unsewn for a face opening, > then the remainder of the edges fastened > together. There are markings around his legs > that suggest to me rectangular leg wrappings > going from knee to ankle which are fastened by > bands at the top and bottom. He appears to be > wearing shoes, but the details aren't clear. No > details of possible sleeves, a belt, or of the > neck opening are visible. [Haywood 2001] > > A stone altar to the Matronae in Cologne, (date?) > -- Since these are divine figures, we need to be > cautious about extrapolating to ordinary dress. > They were at least two layers of garments. The > under layer shows as a floor-length hem falling > in folds and as a high-necked garment showing at > the breast (looks like the head opening is a > horizontal slit). Over this, they wear a loose > garment that appears to be formed by a folded > rectangle, floor length and from wrist to wrist, > opened straight down the front, apparently sewn > together on the sides below a rather generous > wrist opening, and clasped together in the front > just below the breasts with a large brooch. Two > of the Matronae wear a large globular headdress > resembling a fairly extreme Afro in shape > (although presumably it's a garment rather than a > hair style). The third, who is also smaller > (younger?) has a bare head. In the background, > three torsos can be seen (possibly of the family > setting up the altar?) but few details of their > garments are apparent. [Haywood 2001] > > Epona relief from Dalheim, date??? -- She wears a > full-length garment with short loose sleeves that > is belted at the waist. [Birkhan] > > Female divinity in relief, from Trier, date??? -- > This is very classical in style and may belong in > the next category, but the figure is a native > goddess. She wears a long (the bottom of the > carving is missing) loose garment that either has > short sleeves but more probably is formed by a > rectangle, seamed over the shoulders. Her arms > are bare from the elbow down. The neck opening > is small and round. It's unclear if there is a > belt -- the drapery suggests one, but there's > nothing overt. She has a narrow shawl-like item > draped loosely around her and hung over one arm. > [Birkhan] > > Relief carving of male and female deities, > Sarrebourg, date??? -- She wears a peplos-style > garment, either pinned in more than one place on > the shoulders or perhaps sewn together there. > The neck opening is a wide horizontal slit. It's > belted just under her breasts. She has a narrow > shawl-like wrap draped loosely around her. He > wears a loose sleeved tunic, around knee length, > belted at the waist and with the fabric bloused > over the belt. He has what is probably a > rectangular cloak pinned on his right shoulder > and thrown back over the left arm. He appears to > be wearing shoes, but the details are unclear. > [Birkhan] > > Relief carving of male divinity from Trier, > date??? -- He wears an extremely short tunic > (barely past the crotch) that either has very > short sleeves or is formed from a rectangle sewn > at the shoulders. The neck opening is a > horizontal slit. It appears to be belted, from > the drape, but the waist is hidden by other > objects. [Birkhan] > > "Matrona" statues from Trever, date??? -- One > wears a peplos-style, full length garment > apparently pinned at several places over the > shoulder and upper arms (although the fastenings > aren't visible). It appears to be unbelted. The > other wears a similar garment, but it is > unfastened over one shoulder so that she can > nurse an infant. She may be wearing a shawl-like > garment over her head. [Birkhan] > > Eastern Region (e.g., Bohemia) > > Marble relief carving of the goddess Epona, 2nd > c. BCE, Hungary -- Keeping in mind that this is a > divine figure and may not represent normal > clothing, she appears to be wearing a full-length > peplos-style dress, fastened in several places > over the shoulder and upper arm, belted just > below the breasts. [Kruta et al.] > > Stone relief of three female deities, date???, > Bohemia -- To the extent that details are > visible, all three appear to be wearing similar > clothing. There are two visible layers, an outer > layer ending around mid thigh, but details of the > upper part are worn away. It appears to be > belted in some way. Under this, a full-length > skirt emerges, falling in folds. One possible > interpretation would be that this under skirt is > slit at one side, as the folds of the skirt are > visible over one leg and between the legs, but > one leg is shown smooth, as if bare. [Birkhan] > > Region Uncertain > > Epona relief from Contern, date??? -- She wears a > loose but not full floor-length garment. Details > of the upper part are not visible, however she > appears to have a narrow shawl-like object draped > around her neck with the ends hanging down in > front. [Birkhan] > > ART BY NON-CELTS > > Stone statue of warrior, 1st c. BCE, southern > Gaul -- The figure is mostly hidden behind a > shield. He appears to be wearing a rectangular > cloak pinned on the right shoulder with a fibula. > No tunic is visible under this (but "nude > warrior" statues are relatively common) He has > an armlet on his right upper arm. Draped over the > shield is some sort of cloth (cloak?) with a > fringe falling in clumps. [Kruta et al.] > > Ceramic plaque, date???, Magdalensberg -- A > mounted warrior wears trousers of undertain > length but at least knee length. He is naked > above the waist. He wears a neck torque and has > a beard. His hair is stiffened into standing > peaks. [Birkhan] > > A rather romanticized statue of a Gaulish couple > indulging in murder-suicide upon defeat, date???, > copy of a Greek original -- The male figure wears > only a draped cloak (which appears to be defying > gravity). The female figure wears a peplos style > dress, fastened on the shoulders with fibulae and > belted just below the breasts with what appears > to be a fabric belt. The lower part of this > garment shows two layers, one ending just about > the knee and the other apparently continuing to > the floor. She has a fringed mantle draped over > one shoulder, but it doesn't appear to be > fastened in any way. [Birkhan] > > Relief sculpture of a school scene in a classical > style from Neumagen, date??? -- A boy wears a > loose, unbelted, sleeved tunic ending just below > the knees. It has a horizontal slit for the neck > opening. He wears ankle-high shoes laced across > the top of the foot. The other three figures > (two older boys and a bearded man) wear garments > that appear to be a "bag tunic", i.e. a > rectangular sleeveless tunic that is wide enough > to go most of the way down the arms. They are > unbelted and fall to the lower calf. Shoes as > above. [Birkhan] > > There are also some pieces of art from outside > the "core area" that are often presented as > speaking to Celtic clothing styles. A good > example is the Gundestrup cauldron. It was found > in Denmark, but most likely imported, possibly > from a Celtic region. So the question arises > what culture the figures on it reflect. I've > skipped including it for the moment, since I'm > trying to develop a picture based on "solidly > core-La Tene region" material. > > CLOTHING ARTIFACTS - CELTIC > > Rast-Eicher, Antoinette. 2001. "Roman Textiles > in Switzerland" in The Roman Textile Industry and > its Influence, ed. Penelope Walton Rogers, Lise > Bender Jřrgensen and Antoinette Rast Eicher. > Oxbow Books. > > Swiss grave, 1st c. BCE -- Woman's grave with two > fibulae in shoulder position. Preserved against > the back of the fibulae are fragments of 2/2 > diamond twill wool and a tabby section that > probably represents a selvedge. This suggests > they fastened a peplos-style garment pinned > through the selvedges, rather than one with an > over-fold. The grave also contained anklets. > > Swiss grave, 1st c. CE -- Four fibulae: two in > shoulder positions and two more centrally on the > upper chest. The left shoulder pin preserves two > woolen textiles: a fine tabby and coarser fabric > that may have been spin-patterned. > > ACCESSORIES > > [generally from Kruta et al.] Lots of examples > of fibulae (of the "safety pin" type), torques, > armlets, anklets in bronze and gold. Glass > "bangle" bracelets. Gold earrings. Glass and > amber beads. Woman's bronze "chain" belt. An > eastern site (3rd c. BCE Hungary) has two fibulae > linked by a short chain; similar item from 3rd c. > BCE Austria. Gold and bronze finger rings. > > SUMMARY AND COMPARATIVE ARCHAEOLOGY > > I've been holding out on discussing > archaeological garments so far because for the > most part they fall slightly outside either the > region or the time-period I'm focusing on, and I > wanted to start with what sort of picture the > "core evidence" builds up on its own. So in this > section, I'll look at the composite picture > accumulated so far -- dividing the evidence up > into three regions to see if any regional > variation emerges -- and only then discussing > surviving garments that might correspond. > > Western Region -- Gaul proper > > Men -- Both the literary descriptions and the > artistic representations present similar > pictures. Trousers (braccae) are full-length and > relatively close-fitting. Two types of tunics > appear: a relatively close-fitting style, with or > without long sleeves, reaching to around > mid-thigh, and a looser style with half-length > sleeves, reaching to around the knees and worn > unbelted. Tunics appears to have a horizontal > slit for a neck opening and may have a decorative > band at the hem, which archaeological evidence > suggests could have been tablet-woven, sometimes > with gold brocading. Belts tend to be relatively > wide any may be ornamented with metal plaques -- > they are worn at a natural waistline or slightly > lower. There are three general styles of over > garment. The type that seems to appear in the > older contexts is simply a rectangular cloth worn > as a cloak, pinned on the right shoulder with a > fibula. It may have a fringe. Also seen is a > hooded cloak that can be anywhere from waist > length to hip length to full length. There > appears to be very little shaping between the > cloak proper and the hood -- in fact some of the > garments appear to consist of something like a > half circle with the straight edges sewn together > except for a short face opening near the peak. > In addition, there appears to be a tunic-like > over garment (sometimes referred to in the modern > literature as a "Gaulish coat") that is quite > loose and worn unbelted. It has an attached hood > and may either have short sleeves or may be wide > enough to cover the arms even without sleeves. > This item seems to show up mostly in relatively > late contexts. Shoes are present in a number of > contexts, but rarely depicted in much detail. > When we do see detail, they are ankle-high and > laced over the top of the foot. > > Most statuary provides no clue to the nature or > color of the textiles, although one statue with a > lozenge pattern may be trying to represent a > lozenge twill. The classical authors repeatedly > note the use of bright colors, multiple colors, > and stripes or "close-set bricks" of color. > Archaeological textiles support both striped and > checked weaves, although I've seen no examples of > multicolored "tartan" patterns in the modern > sense. > > Women -- The only evidence discussed above comes > from sculptures of goddesses. We see a loose > gown, either pinned at the shoulders in a peplos > style, or sometimes perhaps sewn at the shoulders > (so that it forms the effect of short sleeves, > but without having sleeves that actually project > from the body of the garment. When a belt is > visible, it is cord-like and sits at the waist. > (The head-gear of goddesses is probably not to be > relied on for everyday wear.) > > Middle Region -- southern Germany, northern Italy > > Men -- Close-fitting trousers are standard, but > we also see a plowman wearing some sort of > wrappings on the lower leg. Tunics come in a > variety of styles: 1) an extremely short > sleevesless tunic, probably belted (but the belt > isn't visible -- only the effects). 2) a loose > long-sleevesd tunic to knee length, bloused over > a belt. 3) another loose thigh-length tunic > where the upper details are hidden. As over > garments, we see the same rectangular cloak > pinned at the shoulder and hooded half-length > cloak. Shoes are sometimes present, but not > clearly depicted. > > Women -- Again, we're working primarily from > depictions of divine figures. The most common > style is a full-length loose unshaped gown that > is either pinned at the shoulders peplos-style, > or is sewn together at the shoulders leaving a > horizontal slit for a neck opening. It may be > belted at the natural waist or slightly higher > just under the breasts. In some cases there is a > long narrow shawl-like item draped around the > body and over the arms. More rarely, we see a > peplos-style garment that is pinned in several > places from the shoulders down over the upper > arms. (This appears to be from the influence of > more Roman styles.) One group of "matronae" > (mother goddess figures) wear a rather > distinctive style with an under layer thay may be > similar to the preceding, but an over garment > that appears to be rectangular in shape, running > from wrist to wrist with relatively small hand > openings, full length, and open down the front > with a pin fastening the edges together just > under the breasts. (These figures also wear > large globular headdresses, but as noted above, > divine headgear seeems less likely than usual to > correspond to everyday wear.) Archaeology > supplies paired fibulae in shoulder position, > with a possible selvedge remnant attached and a > coarser, possible spin-pattened fabric over them. > Other fibulae sit on the center chest and may > fasten an over garment. > > Eastern Region -- roughly centered on Hungary > > I don't seem to have any male data from this region. > > Women -- Again, the data sources all appear to be > divinities. One wears a Roman-style full length > peplos dress pinned in several places from the > shoulder over the upper arms and belted just > below the breasts. The other two groups wear > styles similar enough to each other to possibly > constitue a "regional style". We see two layers, > one full length, and another over it falling > around the mid-thigh or knee. It isn't clear > whether this represents a single peplos-style > garment with a very long over-fold, or whether it > represents two separate garments, whether a skirt > and short peplos, or two complete garments. When > the details of the upper portion are clear, the > garment is fastened with two fibulae on the > shoulders and there is no sign of sleeves. In > one case, it isn't clear whether the under layer > is slit up one side or whether this is an > artistic depiction of the fabric lying smoothly > over one leg. There can be a belt just below the > breasts, and in one case it appears to be a > relatively wide fabric belt. Ther emay be a > fringed rectangular mantle. > > Archaeological Models > > Men > > There is an excellent model for the long, > close-fitting trousers in the garments of this > type found at Thorsbjerg and Damendorf (Schlabow, > Hald). The cut is complex and bears little > resemblence to later trouser-like garments. > These finds tend to be dated loosely to the > "Migration era", but dates in the 1st century CE > have been suggested by some researchers. > > The leg-wraps seen on the plowman statue have a > parallel in garments found at Sřgaards Mose > (Denmark) that consist of rectangles with > integral ties attached at top and bottom. (We > know they were used as leg wraps because they > were found wrapped and tied around leg bones.) > > There are available models for a wide variety of > tunic styles. There's a large assortment of > Roman-era material from Egypt, however this is a > bit far removed geographically and very little of > it is early enough to hit my 1st c. cut-off. > Still it's a good model for possible > constructions. In general the Egyptian tunics > are woven in a single piece, even when sleeves > are present. They come in a wide assortment of > proportions and sleeves may or may not be > present. But models closer in time and space > come from German material (see Schlabow, and for > some items also Hald). Examples from > Obenaltendorf and Marx-Etzel represent the > sleeveless style, although somewhat looser in fit > than the La Tene portrayals. The close-fitting, > long-sleeved style is best represented by the > tunic from Thorsbjerg. It is put together from > only slightly shaped rectangles and has separate > sewn-on sleeves. In contrast, a tunic from > Reepsholt is woven in a single piece, with > half-length sleeves, and is much looser in fit. > All of these tend to be around mid-thigh to > knee-length. The "Gaulish coat" has no models > close in time and space, however for a possible > cut one could look at a style of hooded tunic > from Egypt, primarily found as a child's garment. > (The examples I've seen fall more in the 3-6th > century.) It is constructed from a regular-style > tunic with a horizontal-slit neck opening. The > hood is a wide rectangle of fabric, folded in > half and sewn across the top, then sewn to the > neck opening all the way across the back and > partially to the front of the opening at the > edges where it is folded around. (This is better > seen in diagrams.) For the style of the hooded > cloaks, the best model I can find is also a bit > far afield -- in this case the "Orkney hood", > found in Scotland and dated variously to the 3rd > century CE and points later. (Gabra-Sanders) It > shares the feature of having no neck seam -- > rather it is segment of a circle (not quite a > half-circle), sewn together along the flat sides > but leaving a face opening at the top. In this > case, rather that the "center point" of the > circle forming a peak, it is cut across and sewn > to fit the top of the head more closely. > Archaeological finds provide many examples of > rectangular fabrics that were or could have been > used as cloaks. (See numerous examples in > Schlabow and Hald.) Some particularly fine > examples have wide tablet-woven borders and > colored check patterns in the weave. > > Women > > See above for rectangular fabrics that may be > used as wraps. There is a tubular fabric (i.e., > woven as a tube) from Huldremose dating to the > 1st c. CE that was most likely worn as a > peplos-style garment, pinned on the shoulders. > This item is long enough that it would need to be > worn with a flap turned down (or extremely > bloused over a belt), however it is not long > enough to achieve the "two layer" effect with the > over-layer falling to the knees. Another > unprovenenced tubular fabric (Hald) is of an > appropriate length for a peplos-style garment > with no over-fold. Another find at Huldremose, > and a similar one ad Damendorf, also consist of > tubular fabrics (either woven as a tube or sewn > into one) but of skirt-length, and showing traces > of a gathering cord along one selvedge. This > spotlights the possibility that the "two layer" > style might have involved a skirt and 3/4 length > overgarment, rather than a peplos-style garment > with an extremely long over-fold. > > BIBLIOGRAPHY (sources not given in full elsewhere) > > Gabra-Sanders, Thea. 2001. "The Orkney Hood, > Re-dated and Re-considered" in The Roman Textile > Industry and its Influence (Rogers, Penelope > Walton, Lise Bender Jřrgensen & Antoiette > Rast-Eicher eds.). Oxbow Books, Oxford. > > Hald, Margrethe. 1980. Ancient Danish Textiles > from Bogs and Burials. Nat. Museum of Denmark, > Copenhagen. ISBN 87-480-0312-3 > > Pliny "Natural History" -- the Loeb Classical Library edition > > Ross, Anne. 1970. Everyday Life of the Pagan > Celts. Carousel Books. (I actually don't > recommend this book, although Anne Ross is a good > scholar. But the book conflates not simply the > Hallstadt and La Tene eras, but early medieval > Ireland as well. I simply don't think it's > useful to treat that big a stretch as a coherent > unit.) > > Schlabow, Karl. 1976. Textilfunde der Eisenzeit > in Norddeutschland. Karl Wachholtz Verlag, > Neumuenster. ISBN 3-529-01515-6 > -- > **** > Heather Rose Jones > heather.jones@earthlink.net > **** > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 18:28:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CMStRM018936 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:28:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CMRJd5015253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:27:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CMRJ4g033398; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:27:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com (imo-m15.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.205]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CMR74g033171 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:27:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from FyneHats2@aol.com) Received: from FyneHats2@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.48.2e158f2c (4568) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:26:59 -0400 (EDT) From: FyneHats2@aol.com Message-ID: <48.2e158f2c.2e246a33@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:26:59 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 513 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Saragrace, I'm sorry but you must have misread the title. His CHARACTER NAME for Hildago (which was the horse) was Frank T. Hopkins. Viggo Mortensen IS his true name. Donna Scarfe Fyne Hats By Felicity Period Headgear for Past Ages www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:56:58 -0700 > From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" > Subject: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer- > To: "'Historical Costume'" > Message-ID: <001801c4684a$63d9e730$6a01a8c0@SG01> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > His real name is Frank T. Hopkins. While it is not unusual for actors to > change their names, I was surprised that it was stated that way on this > website http://hidalgo.movies.go.com/main.html (you must go to cast and > Crew) > > > Here he is just (http://www.lordoftherings.net/film/cast/ca_vmort.html) > Viggo Mortensen. > > But Bjarne-remember who most of us decend from! I bet there are a few > Americans named Bjarne! I know a fellow here named Jens..(is that > Swedish?). > > Sg > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 19:39:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6CNd1RM019276 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:39:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CNcLd5021480 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:38:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CNbG4g082915; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:37:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6CNZG4g081488 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:35:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13115 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:39:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:39:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Seeking Kate Terlep X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm trying to reach Kate Terlep (known as Constance Fairfax in the SCA). Both the addresses I had for her have come back as nonfunctional. I don't know if she's on this list right now, but I do know that some people here know her. If anyone has a current e-ddress for her, please contact me directly! Thanks, Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 20:54:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D0sHRM019967 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:54:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D0qNd5027178 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:52:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D0qG4g027596; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:52:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6D0qD4g027543 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:52:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-23773); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:52:10 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:52:09 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040712174047.012acea0@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:52:03 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher without matching ''forpart''or underskirt In-Reply-To: <000701c46832$c2ee09d0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:07 AM 7/12/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all, I was wondering if any of you have ever seen, have a picture of, >etc. of a portrait of Elizabeth Buxton which may have been done around 1590 >by Robert Peake. This gown is supposedly loosely based on it; >http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/sophie.html > >I am interested in any othe pictures around the time where the the stomacher >doesn't match the main skirt or ''forepart'' petticote. > >Thanks, > >Sg There are the following portraits in Roy Strong's "The English Icon": 1. figure 170, page 211: An Unknown Lady, 1595, attributed to "an Unknown follower of Custodis" 2. figure 162, page 204: Sir John Harington and Mary Rogers, Lady Harington, 1590-95, by Hieronimo Custodis. 3. figure 155, page 200: Anne, Lady Throckmorton, 1590, by Hieronimo Custodis. In all of these, the ladies' stomachers are quite different from the rest of the gown; they look to be embroidered. All of these pictures are photographed in black and white, so I don't know if the embroidered flowers are in their natural colors. The portrait of Elizabeth Buxton is not in "The English Icon". _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 20:57:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D0vpRM019979 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:57:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D0u3d5027512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:56:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D0u24g029682; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:56:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f17.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D0u04g029584 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:56:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:55:54 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:55:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Aragorn Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:55:54 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 00:55:54.0436 (UTC) FILETIME=[267BD040:01C46874] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >That's Viggo Mortenson. I think it's very interesting that throughout the >three movies and months of wandering in the wilderness, he maintains the >EXACT SAME unkempt short beard. I guess Tolkien forget to mention in this >books that the Dunedain have very slow-growing hair, as well as long lives. >My main thought every time I looked at him was "I hope he combs his hair >and >takes a bath once he gets to be king." > > the hair was a wig or hair pieces according to one of the LOTR special I watched. And Jackson filmed all three movies at once, the beard was stayed the same in all three. _________________________________________________________________ Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 21:15:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D1F6RM020068 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:15:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1DEd5028635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:13:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1DB4g039324; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:13:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f33.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.33]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1DB4g039262 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:13:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:13:05 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:13:05 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:13:05 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 01:13:05.0447 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D039B70:01C46876] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I recommed reading A History of Childhood by Colin Heywood. Book Description from Amazon.com In this lively and accessible book, Colin Heywood explores the changing experiences and perceptions of childhood from the early Middle Ages to the beginning of the twentieth century. Heywood examines the different ways in which people have thought about childhood as a stage of life, the relationships of children with their families and peers, and the experiences of young people at work, in school and at the hands of various welfare institutions. The aim is to place the history of children and childhood firmly in its social and cultural context, without losing sight of the many individual experiences that have come down to us in diaries, autobiographies and oral testimonies. Wilhelmina _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 21:19:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D1JSRM020081 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:19:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1Hed5028932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:17:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1Hc4g041804; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:17:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from lakermmtao01.cox.net (lakermmtao01.cox.net [68.230.240.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1HY4g041696 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:17:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from vmaa2@cox.net) Received: from VMAAHQ ([68.10.139.124]) by lakermmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with ESMTP id <20040713011726.VTIY29186.lakermmtao01.cox.net@VMAAHQ> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:17:26 -0400 From: "Linda Rice" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:17:13 -0400 Message-ID: <009b01c46877$20f0b7a0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO As usual, I'm weeks behind in reading mail, so please forgive me if I've missed the boat yet again. Here's an interesting item, I thought: http://www.anteques.com/srv/antaday/1189.htm It doesn't say if this was used heated or not, but I would guess that if you did heat it, you'd have to be pretty careful not to crack it. Perhaps just the weight and shape was sufficient to press out the cloth? Pax, ::Linda:: _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 21:35:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D1ZBRM020110 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:35:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1Yad5029902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:34:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1YX4g051413; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:34:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1YV4g051344 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:34:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from katie_lewis@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 23C851802E70 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:34:26 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.35) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 13 Jul 2004 01:32:04 -0000 Received: by ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5B3904F3DD; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:33:47 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [129.219.100.125] by ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com with http for katie_lewis@lycos.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:33:47 -0500 From: "kathleen lewis" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:33:47 -0500 Subject: RE: [h-cost] Spanish costume X-Originating-Ip: 129.219.100.125 X-Originating-Server: ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040713013347.5B3904F3DD@ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Heather Rose Jones Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:47:59 -0700 To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Spanish costume >> > > > I've been meaning to get out some drafting paper > and play around with the questions. Because it > seems to me that if you're working from a > "modified geometric cut" (i.e., a pattern that's > based on the geometric > rectangles-triangles-trapezoids approach of early > medieval cuts, with perhaps a little added > shaping), and if you have no compunction about > doing a bit of piecing -- especially > selvedge-to-selvedge piecing, then it seems to me > that you may be able to get a bias-cut garment > out of pretty close to the same yardage as a > straight-grain garment. This makes sense to me, based on my experience with geometric patterns. For example I can get a mid calf length caftan and a pair of *very* baggy pants that will fit my 6'3" 225 lb husband out of 5 1/2 yards of fabric. And I can hold the "wastage" from said garments in a single closed fist. The Alphonso X garments seem to be based on pretty geometic cuts, so it seems to me that although bias cut plaids may be relatively wasteful of material by the standards of geometric cuts in absolute terms they may not be *that* wasteful. Espescially when one considers that a lot of the bias cut plaid garments were parti-colored. -Katie Anya: Fine. Look, I know you find me attractive. I've seen you looking at my breasts. Xander: Nothing personal, but when a guy does that, it just means his eyes are open. -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 21:39:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D1dHRM020163 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:39:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1b2d5000263 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:37:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1b24g052854; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:37:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1ZF4g051777 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:35:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.102] (pm7-102.eos.net [205.133.149.102]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D1ZBEM013512 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:35:11 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:32:58 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407122001.i6CK1W4h014725@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 513 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO on 7/12/04 4:01 PM, h-costume-request@indra.com at h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > Keira Knightly's warrior costume was done at the insistence of the director > who wanted to showcase the actress's torso, presumably for the delectation > of all the 12-15 year old boys in the audience who apparently are the > biggest slice of the movie-going pie. Neither the costume designer or > Knightly liked that costume or the "paint" that went with it. Thanks for posting this, Cindy, I was really wondering, but I don't read much movie stuff. My husband has a rude name for this outfit. He says it looks like a belt put in the wrong place, and I think he's right! The funny thing is that I read an interview with the actor that played Arthur that included some background information, and it said that the director really wanted him because he's a stage actor and "this is an important British story and I wanted it to be taken seriously." I guess he changed his mind when it came to Guinever's "armor." Or is it supposed to be a belt she puts on wrong? Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 21:39:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D1dpRM020166 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:39:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1dMd5000453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:39:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1dL4g054205; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:39:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f4.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D1dD4g054079 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:39:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:39:08 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:39:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: Viggo Mortensen was Re: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:39:08 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 01:39:08.0241 (UTC) FILETIME=[30830C10:01C4687A] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >Danish father (Viggo, Sr.), American mother. He's fluent in (at a minimum) >English, Spanish and Danish and writes poetry in each of those languages. >He also paints, is a photographer, has his own small publishing company... >Quite the Renaissance Man. (No pun intended, honest! ) > http://www.frostyland.com/Viggo/viggo.artistry.html young and clean shaven (maybe) http://imdb.com/gallery/ss/0120787/Ss/0120787/4?path=gallery&path_key=0120787 _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 22:08:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D28XRM020362 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:08:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D26Ed5003843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D26C4g070763; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jade.spiritone.com (jade.spiritone.com [216.99.193.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D25K4h070037 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:05:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wandap@hevanet.com) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by jade.spiritone.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6D25ESW005411 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:05:15 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:12:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000001c46818$0bee0ab0$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Saragrace, You are going to have to hit me harder than that with the 2x4 :-). Here's what I'm doing: click on http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ This takes me to a page with four people playing cards and on the left side the logo of a castle, with Institut fur Realienkunde des Mittelalters und der fruhen Neuzeit at the top. On the left hand side is: TEAM, Lietbild, Datenbanken, Projekte, Aktueles I'm not groking the "select REALonline" because I'm not seeing anything like that on the page that comes up. Regina > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 6:57 AM > To: 'Historical Costume' > Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site > > > Regina-you will have to follow the instructions included in the intial > post....they are in your message below... :) > > >Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts > > > >What am I doing wrong on this link? When I click on it I go to a screen > >with a nice woodcut of people playing cards. I don't see REALonline. > > > >Help! Whine! > > > >Regina > > > > > >> > >> The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ > >> and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, > >> mostly from Austria or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting > >> REALonline, which will open another window. Under Kataloge, > >> select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A list of names appears, > >> starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type in "Medea" > >> and hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex > >> illustrating the story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the > >> shift about 10 down. > >> > >> Janet > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 22:28:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D2SSRM020402 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:28:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2PRd5005782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:25:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2PQ4g082227; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:25:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2PM4g082173 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:25:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m173.in-tch.com [216.166.191.173]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6D20gN27894 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:00:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F348FC.301@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:29:16 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Loving / caring for children References: <40F1EDBC.6040001@thibault.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20040712090911.02569ec8@mail.katiesorchids.com> <40F2C10A.7040604@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <40F2C10A.7040604@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ahh...I know that novel! That's the one in which the heroine cooked a 20th c. picnic for the family/household...complete with fried chicken, chocolate brownies and, I think, potatoe salad. That book got the wierdest things right or wrong....It was an imaginative novel, with a good historical flavor, but not exactly a stickler for actual accuracy (as opposed to intended accuracy!) --sue, chiming in with her two pence worth... Cynthia Virtue wrote: > Hmm, well, I think we've done "nursing slits" to death, but I can add > that the horrible novel I mentioned earlier also spoke of Elizabethan > noble everyday wear to be 40-50 pounds of fabric, and that the heroine > (taken back in time from now) got so frustrated at the nonexistant > bathing that she snuck out in the early morning every day to take a > shower in the garden fountain. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 22:37:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D2bmRM020461 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:37:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2ajd5006906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:36:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2ag4g088793; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:36:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2ad4g088763 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:36:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.225.67.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.225.67]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkD9Y-00061G-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:36:28 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:34:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <40F3034F.20703@verizon.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From what we could tell, a tape is applied on the underside/inside of the garment, tacked down periodically, and the lacing goes through there. HIS garment has plain old eyelet holes, spiral laced. Grace/Jessamyn > From: Maura Folsom > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:31:59 -0500 > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X > > Grace/Jessamyn wrote, tantalizingly: > >> Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally >> got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover >> when you finally see the garment in person. Too bad they won't dig up more >> royal graves around Europe... >> >> > > Aaaaa! I'm jealous. Fess up! Is it *anything at all* like what I've got > roughly sketched in my drawings on my site? ( > http://bliautlady.50megs.com/finishing.htm , about halfway down under > "intital lacing theory sketches") Was I utterly wrong, or did I get close? > > Fairly dancing with curiosity, > Maura/Marguerie > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 22:43:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D2hCRM020499 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:43:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2fNd5007284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:41:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2fK4g091526; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:41:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2fI4g091501 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:41:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.153.198.10.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.198.10]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkDEK-0006rq-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:41:17 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:39:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Same here. Grace/Jessamyn > From: "Wanda Pease" > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:12:44 -0700 > To: "Historical Costume" > Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site > > Saragrace, > > You are going to have to hit me harder than that with the 2x4 :-). Here's > what I'm doing: click on http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ > This takes me to a page with four people playing cards and on the left side > the logo of a castle, with Institut fur Realienkunde des Mittelalters und > der fruhen Neuzeit at the top. > On the left hand side is: TEAM, Lietbild, Datenbanken, Projekte, Aktueles > > I'm not groking the "select REALonline" because I'm not seeing anything > like that on the page that comes up. > > Regina > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On >> Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf >> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 6:57 AM >> To: 'Historical Costume' >> Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site >> >> >> Regina-you will have to follow the instructions included in the intial >> post....they are in your message below... :) >> >>> Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts >>> >>> What am I doing wrong on this link? When I click on it I go to a screen >>> with a nice woodcut of people playing cards. I don't see REALonline. >>> >>> Help! Whine! >>> >>> Regina >>> >>> >>>> >>>> The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ >>>> and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, >>>> mostly from Austria or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting >>>> REALonline, which will open another window. Under Kataloge, >>>> select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A list of names appears, >>>> starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type in "Medea" >>>> and hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex >>>> illustrating the story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the >>>> shift about 10 down. >>>> >>>> Janet >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 22:44:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D2i2RM020502 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:44:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2ZidX006855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:38:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D27m4g071755; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:07:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.netspace.net.au (thunder.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D26M4g070760 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:06:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from stilskin@netspace.net.au) Received: from chris (dialup-a1-451.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.113.247.197]) by mail.netspace.net.au (Postfix) with SMTP id BBCB242A27 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:06:08 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <001a01c4687e$7b3d4f00$c5f771cb@chris> From: "Christopher Ballis" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40F2F74A.9010402@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: Doctor Spock and novel Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:09:50 +1000 Organization: Australian Costume Supply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > heroine "saved" the baby by taking it out of its swaddling. I remember > > thinking that if that were true, it's amazing anyone lived past the 1600s. Maybe she used the transporter, -C (ducking). _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 22:46:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D2kiRM020514 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:46:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2hhd5007464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:43:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2hg4g092979; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:43:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2hf4g092970 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:43:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.153.198.10.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.198.10]) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkDGe-0007GI-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:43:41 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:42:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site/take 2 From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Found it!! You have to click on Datenbanken first!! Someone left out a crucial step in the directions... Grace/Jessamyn > From: "Wanda Pease" > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:12:44 -0700 > To: "Historical Costume" > Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site > > Saragrace, > > You are going to have to hit me harder than that with the 2x4 :-). Here's > what I'm doing: click on http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ > This takes me to a page with four people playing cards and on the left side > the logo of a castle, with Institut fur Realienkunde des Mittelalters und > der fruhen Neuzeit at the top. > On the left hand side is: TEAM, Lietbild, Datenbanken, Projekte, Aktueles > > I'm not groking the "select REALonline" because I'm not seeing anything > like that on the page that comes up. > > Regina > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On >> Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf >> Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 6:57 AM >> To: 'Historical Costume' >> Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site >> >> >> Regina-you will have to follow the instructions included in the intial >> post....they are in your message below... :) >> >>> Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts >>> >>> What am I doing wrong on this link? When I click on it I go to a screen >>> with a nice woodcut of people playing cards. I don't see REALonline. >>> >>> Help! Whine! >>> >>> Regina >>> >>> >>>> >>>> The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ >>>> and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, >>>> mostly from Austria or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting >>>> REALonline, which will open another window. Under Kataloge, >>>> select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A list of names appears, >>>> starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type in "Medea" >>>> and hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex >>>> illustrating the story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the >>>> shift about 10 down. >>>> >>>> Janet >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 23:01:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D312RM020542 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:01:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2w0d5008481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:58:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2vv4g001477; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:57:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D2vt4g001431 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:57:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m173.in-tch.com [216.166.191.173]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6D2XFN11105 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:33:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F3509D.4060700@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:01:49 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have a photo of a gentleman's effigy in which his closely fitted garment (definitely some sort of "cotehardie" because of the time frame) clearly has spiral lacing on at least one side (I didn't think to check the other side of the tomb! ratz!) --sue Grace Morris wrote: >>From what we could tell, a tape is applied on the underside/inside of the > garment, tacked down periodically, and the lacing goes through there. > > HIS garment has plain old eyelet holes, spiral laced. > > Grace/Jessamyn > > >>From: Maura Folsom >>Reply-To: Historical Costume >>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:31:59 -0500 >>To: h-costume@indra.com >>Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X >> >>Grace/Jessamyn wrote, tantalizingly: >> >> >>>Oh, and I just got back from Spain, including Burgos, last week. I finally >>>got to see how the lacings REALLY work. It is amazing what you discover >>>when you finally see the garment in person. Too bad they won't dig up more >>>royal graves around Europe... >>> >>> >> >>Aaaaa! I'm jealous. Fess up! Is it *anything at all* like what I've got >>roughly sketched in my drawings on my site? ( >>http://bliautlady.50megs.com/finishing.htm , about halfway down under >>"intital lacing theory sketches") Was I utterly wrong, or did I get close? >> >>Fairly dancing with curiosity, >>Maura/Marguerie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 23:16:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D3GgRM020627 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:16:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3Ffd5009621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:15:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3Fb4g011886; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:15:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3FZ4g011859 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:15:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-67-101-145-205.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([67.101.145.205] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkDlV-00054Q-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:15:33 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40F21F0D.7000406@in-tch.com> References: <40F21F0D.7000406@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:12:13 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 11:18 PM -0600 7/11/04, Sue Clemenger wrote: >5. Other odd mysteries related to this would be trying to work out >what examples we have (if any) of garments made of plaid but cut on >the grain rather than the bias, as well as making an inventory of >garments that were known to have been cut on the bias. I've seen at least a couple of garments that are particolored in a similar fashion with a straight-grain check (large "gingham" style checks in the ones I remember) on one half. Interestingly, the examples of these that I've found have been significantly more loose-fitting than the Spanish bias-look particolored items. (This isn't to say that I'd support a hypothesis that all close-fitting gowns are bias-cut. But I do rather lean towards the hypothesis that the Spanish bias-look particolored garments are bias-cut.) Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 23:21:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D3LSRM020648 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:21:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3Hqd5009766 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:17:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3Hq4g013166; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:17:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jade.spiritone.com (jade.spiritone.com [216.99.193.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3Fi4h011938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:15:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wandap@hevanet.com) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by jade.spiritone.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6D3FgSW010108 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:15:43 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site/take 2 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:23:12 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And if you go further down and click on "Kleidung" you get costume shots! Regina > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Grace Morris > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 7:42 PM > To: Historical Costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] sleeveless shifts-imareal site/take 2 > > > Found it!! You have to click on Datenbanken first!! > > Someone left out a crucial step in the directions... > > Grace/Jessamyn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 23:52:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D3qgRM020736 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:52:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3pMd5012174 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:51:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3pK4g032877; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:51:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3pF4g032721 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:51:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.145.122]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6D3onmu018838 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:50:55 +1000 Message-ID: <000001c4688c$919b4a00$7a91d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000601c46435$721cc970$6a01a8c0@SG01><1089.24.4.69.40.1089262626.squirrel@24.4.69.40> <40ED8620.7090809@eatel.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tiny URL WAS: Special Ribbon source? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:22:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 3:36 AM Subject: [h-cost] Tiny URL WAS: Special Ribbon source? http://tinyurl.com/3ajt2 > > This URL will never wear out, is much easier to handle, and you don't > have to cut and paste anything. Can I please implore everyone to give > it a try, and take pity on us poor folk? Please? > > > Margaret Rose I'd just like to add that it is often a good idea to include the full link or at least the front-page of the website the URL is pointing to as a lot of people don't want to click on a link when they have little or no idea where they will end up. Also snipurl.com is an alternative site which provides the same service. Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 12 23:58:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D3w4RM020748 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:58:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3vPd5012940 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:57:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3vK4g036788; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:57:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D3vI4g036771 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:57:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkEPu-0005vS-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:57:18 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer-doiiiii-second time 'round Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:57:32 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c4688d$869bc750$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >-----Original Message----- >From: Saragrace T. Knauf [mailto:saragrace@earthlink.net] >Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 2:40 PM >To: 'Historical Costume' >Subject: RE: Re: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen- Vermeer-doiiiii > > Just to clarify, Frank T. Hopkins is the name of the character that he plays > in the movie, not his real name. His real name is Viggo Peter Mortensen. > (www.imbd.com mini-biography). > > Colleen [Sg] Thank you Colleen, I thought that was weird...duh.... Sg ( who is using the universal sign duh - slap on forhead with heel of hand) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 00:21:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D4LDRM020860 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:21:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D4Kdd5014542 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:20:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D4KY4g050451; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:20:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D4KV4g050411 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:20:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14726 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:24:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:24:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Seeking Kate Terlep X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Robin Netherton wrote: > I'm trying to reach Kate Terlep ... Got it. Thanks to all who wrote. --R. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 00:32:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D4W1RM020872 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:32:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D4U9d5015296 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:30:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D4U84g055699; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:30:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D4U44g055617 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:30:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14793 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:34:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:34:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X In-Reply-To: <40F3509D.4060700@in-tch.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Sue Clemenger wrote: > I have a photo of a gentleman's effigy in which his closely fitted > garment (definitely some sort of "cotehardie" because of the time frame) > clearly has spiral lacing on at least one side (I didn't think to check > the other side of the tomb! ratz!) Place? Date? Hard to find good male examples in civilian dress on effigies. So many are in armor. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 00:35:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D4ZBRM020884 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:35:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D4WBd5015435 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:32:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D4WA4g056772; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:32:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D4VN4g056369 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:31:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-67-101-145-205.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([67.101.145.205] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkEws-0001Ss-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:31:22 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <40F21F0D.7000406@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:28:02 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 7:12 PM -0700 7/12/04, Heather Rose Jones wrote: >At 11:18 PM -0600 7/11/04, Sue Clemenger wrote: > >>5. Other odd mysteries related to this would be trying to work out >>what examples we have (if any) of garments made of plaid but cut on >>the grain rather than the bias, as well as making an inventory of >>garments that were known to have been cut on the bias. > >I've seen at least a couple of garments that are particolored in a >similar fashion with a straight-grain check (large "gingham" style >checks in the ones I remember) on one half. Given my usual specialties, I realize I should have specified "garments in paintings". Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 01:25:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D5PWRM020989 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:25:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D5Ngd5018584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:23:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D5NW4g084610; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:23:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D5NU4g084552 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:23:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from edieann@telus.net) Received: from moms ([207.6.156.139]) by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with SMTP id <20040713052325.FLUD6615.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@moms> for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:23:25 -0600 Message-ID: <001701c4689a$6da81200$8b9c06cf@bc.hsia.telus.net> From: "Edith Reardon" To: References: <200407120533.i6C5XI4h073023@net.indra.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:29:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 510 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Did a search on local bookstores for this book amazon sells it for $35.50 us. or 46.76 can. I think this is one I will add to my list of must haves. Brin Kendall Message: 10 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:27:35 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 509 To: Historical Costume Message-ID: <40F22147.20800@in-tch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed There's a whole book of viking/dublin headcoverings out now (I've got one sitting on my bookshelf). I ordered mine directly from the Royal Irish Academy (they've got a website). Wasn't cheap--30+ euro, not counting the shipping cost, but it only took a couple of weeks to get all the way to Montana, and it came as part of a pretty big box, since I kinda indulged in some of their other publications with my tax refund . It's a completely cool book....scarves and caps and all *kinds* of stuff! --sue SNSpies@aol.com wrote: > There are some things which might have been worn under headrails and > veils - The Coppergate Viking cap, and Viking headscarves are > possibilities > > Viking head scarves? I would be thrilled to learn that any have been found. > Please advise! > > Nancy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 01:28:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D5SJRM020995 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:28:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D5QTd5018711 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:26:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D5QT4g086163; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:26:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jade.spiritone.com (jade.spiritone.com [216.99.193.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D5QP4h086144 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:26:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wandap@hevanet.com) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by jade.spiritone.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6D5QNSW018496 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:26:24 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 22:33:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Chinese Peacock hat was Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Grace Morris > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 7:57 AM > To: Historical Costume > Subject: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X > snip< > > In regards to Alphonso's books (Cantigas, Book of Chess, Book of the > Knight, Book of Games, etc.) virtually all of the clothing > depicted was worn > in the period. One possible exception is the "Chinese coolie hat" covered > in peacock feathers worn by the Queen of Sheba....probably an attempt to > make her look Eastern. However, I wouldn't rule it out completely. Spain > has always had their own unique (weird) twist on fashion. > If you look at image 32 from the Manesse http://www.tempora-nostra.de/index_f_neu.shtml?manesse0-9 you will see the rider is wearing a rather "chinese coolie hat" decorated with peacock feathers. Regina _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 02:29:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D6TLRM028547 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:29:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D6Q9d5022110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:26:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D6Q64g018924; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:26:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D6Q34g018890 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:26:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15501 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:30:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:30:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historic Costume List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Call for papers, dress/textiles X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO To the list: I just sent out this notice to my mailing list for the DISTAFF sessions at the Medieval Congress at Kalamazoo. I know there's some interest in the Congress here on this list, so I thought some people here would like to see what we're planning. And of course you can forward this message on to anyone you think might want to propose a paper for the dress/textiles track. Information about the conference is available at the URLs given in my message below. --Robin ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:16:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton Subject: Call for papers: DISTAFF sessions, Kalamazoo 2005 [This message is going to the people who have signed up to receive DISTAFF notices at the costume and textiles sessions at the International Medieval Congresses at Kalamazoo or Leeds. DISTAFF (Discussion, Interpretation, and Study of Textile Arts, Fabrics, and Fashion) is a group formed to organize conference sessions on medieval and Renaissance textiles and dress. Please feel free to forward this notice to relevant mailing lists or interested individuals.] The Call for Papers for the 2005 International Medieval Congress at Kalamazoo is now out, and DISTAFF has four sessions scheduled. The Congress will be held 5-8 May 2005. You can view the Call for Papers at http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/congress/40cfp/index.html. If you're on the conference mailing list, you should receive a copy by postal mail. Our sessions appear in the "Sponsored Sessions" section, under DISTAFF. At this writing, we have openings in all four of the sessions, as follows: Dress and Textiles I: Cloth Trade and Traders Our session on this theme in 2004 proved very successful, drawing an audience of almost 100. Because of the high level of interest in this area, we're repeating the theme for 2005. We'd be interested in papers on textile/clothing economics or manufacture, trade routes and availability of particular cloth goods, the development or role of guilds and merchant groups, analysis of documents relating to the cloth trade, or the depiction or representation of cloth traders in art and literature, for example. Dress and Textiles II: Pretty and Practical We're looking for papers examining the decorative and functional uses of particular textile goods or clothing items. This might include the decoration of functional items, the development of design elements based on functional requirements, the movement of a fashion accessory from functional to decorative use over time, or similar topics. Dress and Textiles III: Child and Man We're open to papers on children's clothing, men's clothing, textile items specific to men or children, the roles of men or children in the manufacture or trade of textile/dress items, the use of dress in the artistic or literary representation of men or children, or any other angle that might fit within this broad theme. Dress and Textiles IV: Looking East As examples, we'd be interested in papers on such topics as non-European dress or fiber arts; East/West textile trade; fashion influence between East and West, or Western perceptions of Eastern dress. Proposals for the DISTAFF sessions go to Robin Netherton, as outlined in the Call for Papers. Proposal deadline is 15 September. However, we would strongly suggest that you contact us before the last minute if you have an idea. In other words: If you are considering proposing a paper, please email us now to tell us your intentions, and we can take that into consideration as we make our plans. If you aren't sure whether this is the right session for you, or if you'd like advice on how best to focus your topic to fit with the others we have already accepted, feel free to contact us, and we'll discuss the possibilities before you frame a proposal. IMPORTANT: If you have already discussed with us your placing a paper in one of these sessions, please email now to confirm your interest. Papers presented at DISTAFF's sessions will be considered for publication (if the presenter so desires) in the annual journal _Medieval Clothing & Textiles_. The journal's premiere issue, now in production, is scheduled to be available at the 2005 Congress. If you have questions about the Congress, please check the website at http://www.wmich.edu/medieval . We look forward to seeing many of you at Kalamazoo. As in past years, DISTAFF will be hosting an informal reception; check your program book for the date and time. Robin Netherton Gale Owen-Crocker DISTAFF _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 02:31:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D6VvRM028913 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:31:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D6Tqd5022295 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:29:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D6Tb4g020613; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:29:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D6R34g019416 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:27:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1202271C6 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:26:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p430.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.215.176]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 956B2D4AF for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:26:57 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:27:15 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <40F3034F.20703@verizon.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Diagonal stripes was: Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Think it's bias cut? http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/giotto/p-giotto4.htm "Fiddle" player. Italian. De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 02:44:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D6i7RM031200 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:44:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D6etd5022866 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:40:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D6es4g027088; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:40:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net (invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.254]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D6ep4g027061 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:40:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.238.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.238] helo=HELENPINTO) by invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BkGyA-0002Ox-6k for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:40:51 -0700 Message-ID: <02ca01c468a4$542a2570$ee399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:40:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef5277196ed0b6cc74137580694872bf31350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.238 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Navigating REALonline X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Regina- Go to http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ In the left-hand column, click on "Datenbanken". When the next page comes up, click on "REALonline". This will open a new window with a set of menus in the left column and some other stuff on the right. What you're interested in is the left-hand column. The first drop-down menu contains the different indexes to the collection; when you pick one, click on "Auswahlen" (selections); it will open the lower drop-down menu with more choices/ Your choices from this list and the fine-tuned list below will get you a selection of pictures. Bildnummern - picture numbers (something internal) Standorte- locations (cities,etc - probably for the artist) Kunstler- artists (alphabetical list of artists) Bildthema- picture title or subject Historische Orte- another location, maybe of what's in the picture Orte- location of activity within the pictre Handlungen- actions taking place in the picture Personennamen- names of people in the picture Standesbezeichnungen- occupations/titles of people in the picture Gestik- gestures performed by people in the picture Kleidung- clothes in the picture Materielle Objekte- materials objects in the picture Tiere- animals in the picture When you've chosen from the list above, and the second drop-down menu appears, click on an entry in the list, then click on "Zeige Bilder" (show pictures). ("Voriger Begriff" gets you the previous segment of the list; "Nachster Begriff" gets you the next segment.) When you click on "Zeige Bilder", thumbnails of pictures and text information will show in the right column. If you click on the thumbnail, it will give you a large version of the picture. Clicking on "Voriges Bild" will get you the last picture in the set; "Nachster Bild" will get you the next one. The other bits- just below the first drop-down menu is "Zeitraum" (period); you can enter "to" and "from" years. Beneath that is "Wieviel Information" (how much detail); choose "Knapp" (a little), "Mittel" (medium), or "Ausfuhrlich" (a lot). This controls the amount of text accompanying the thumbnail. NB- it's all in German. The last bits are "Allgemeines" (general information) and "Teilbilder" (fields), also controlling the text. I hope this will allow you to navigate the site. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 04:12:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6D8CoRM026526 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 04:12:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D88qd5027056 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:08:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6D88g4g071477; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:08:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from quartz.stoneage.mglarc.com ([212.17.54.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6D88c4h071341 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:08:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lstrid@mglarc.com) Received: from oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com ([10.10.1.22]) by quartz.stoneage.mglarc.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.0.59) with SMTP id M2004071309101213454 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:10:12 +0100 Received: by oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <3YQCJFRT>; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:06:13 +0100 Message-ID: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A6498@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> From: Lena Strid To: "'h-costume@mail.indra.com'" Subject: Re: [h-cost] Next question: headrails Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:06:07 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Follow up MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6D88c4h071341 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Speaking of medieval headcoverings, does anybody know how to wrap the "knotted" veils as seen in the Breviary of Chertsey Abbey and the Maciejowski bible? Image here: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/jpegs/lat/liturg/d/042/ 500/04200751.jpg /Lena ================================================= Margaret Gowen & Co. Ltd. Archaeological Consultants & Project Managers 2 Killiney View Tel: 01-2300433 Albert Road Lower Fax: 01-2300865 Glenageary e-mail: archaeology@mglarc.com Co. Dublin website: http://www.mglarc.com ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is private and confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you are not named above as an addressee it may be unlawful for you to read, copy, distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this email. If you are not the intended recipient of this email please contact our systems administrator. Thank you. NOTE Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its associated companies unless otherwise specifically stated. This email message has passed through a "Symantec Mail Security for SMTP" server and has been checked for both virus and spam content. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 08:18:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DCI6RM022485 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:18:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DCHQd5008541 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:17:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DCHG4g097870; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:17:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DCHE4g097850 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:17:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a227.in-tch.com [66.62.107.27]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6DBqbN13974 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:52:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F3D3B8.6020506@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:21:12 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 510 References: <200407120533.i6C5XI4h073023@net.indra.com> <001701c4689a$6da81200$8b9c06cf@bc.hsia.telus.net> In-Reply-To: <001701c4689a$6da81200$8b9c06cf@bc.hsia.telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I would. It's pretty amazing. Lots of interesting textile bits, as well. And lots of other great books put out by the same Academy, although not costume-related. One of them has obscure subjects like ship graffiti . --sue Edith Reardon wrote: > Did a search on local bookstores for this book > > amazon sells it for $35.50 us. or 46.76 can. I think this is one I > will add to my list of must haves. > > Brin Kendall > > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:27:35 -0600 > From: Sue Clemenger > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 509 > To: Historical Costume > Message-ID: <40F22147.20800@in-tch.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > There's a whole book of viking/dublin headcoverings out now (I've got > one sitting on my bookshelf). I ordered mine directly from the Royal > Irish Academy (they've got a website). Wasn't cheap--30+ euro, not > counting the shipping cost, but it only took a couple of weeks to get > all the way to Montana, and it came as part of a pretty big box, since I > kinda indulged in some of their other publications with my tax refund . > It's a completely cool book....scarves and caps and all *kinds* of stuff! > --sue _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 08:25:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DCP5RM022505 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:25:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DCOQd5008809 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:24:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DCOP4g001690; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:24:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DCOL4g001658 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:24:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a227.in-tch.com [66.62.107.27]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6DBxhN15895 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 05:59:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F3D562.7050207@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:28:18 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO England. Salisbury Cathedral. Tomb of Sir John de Montacute who, according to the plaque on the tomb, "fought at Crecy in 1346 and Poitiers in 1356, and was later Steward to King Richard II. He died in 1389." It's a digital photo, Robin, so I could send you a copy if you like.... --sue Robin Netherton wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Sue Clemenger wrote: > > >>I have a photo of a gentleman's effigy in which his closely fitted >>garment (definitely some sort of "cotehardie" because of the time frame) >>clearly has spiral lacing on at least one side (I didn't think to check >>the other side of the tomb! ratz!) > > > Place? Date? > > Hard to find good male examples in civilian dress on effigies. So many are > in armor. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 09:17:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DDHNRM022865 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:17:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DDESd5011307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:14:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DDEP4g030227; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:14:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DDEM4g030035 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:14:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6DDEUC28076.; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:14:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:14:02 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:13:35 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: Doctor Spock and novel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> cvirtue+dated+1105216718.2ca28a@thibault.org 12/07/2004 21:40:42 >>> >By the time kids were able to walk, they would be out of swaddling -- >hence the several pictures of toddlers in medieval walking frames; very >cute. Yes, indeed. I know very little about babies, historical or modern, but it's my understanding that it was only the very young who were swaddled, when they would have been immobile anyway. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 09:35:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DDZRRM023070 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:35:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DDYrd5012777 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:34:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DDYn4g042212; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:34:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53005.mail.yahoo.com (web53005.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.195]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6DDYj4g042140 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:34:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from aureliarufinia@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040713133440.31599.qmail@web53005.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [18.152.6.209] by web53005.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:34:40 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 06:34:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Aurelia Rufinia To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407122001.i6CK1W4i014725@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ummmm... well.... I haven't seen the movie yet, but have seen the pictures of one of the dresses in question, and I see where they were headed, but like when (as the Boston Globe review said) "history gets hog-tied and tossed in the back of Jerry Bruckheimer's jag," the costume takes a random right at Albuquerque, and the dress is pretty wrong. Closer than Gladiator, but that doesn't take much. Aurelia >> I thought the dresses she wore earlier were plausible, considering that she probably borrowed from the Roman lady. The "Woads" were about what I would expect, but wouldn't they have been gone by that time in history? I really liked the trebuchets they used, though.> ===== Baroness Aurelia Rufinia House Iron Maiden, Barony of Carolingia, East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat "27 lawyers in the room, anyone know "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc"? Josh?" "Post - after, after hoc, ergo - therefore, "After hoc, therefore" something else hoc." "Thank you. Next?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 10:21:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DELORM023585 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:21:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DEKed5015999 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:20:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DEKa4g071042; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:20:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DEKX4g070999 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:20:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA14645 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:20:32 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:20:32 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20040713133440.31599.qmail@web53005.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If you haven't read it already, get a copy of "Hollywood and History" by Edward Maeder. Excellent coverage of costume, hair, and makeup of Hollywood films from the 20's-80's. Between the director's "vision", costume budget, production values, current aesthetic of "what's attractive" and for older films under the constraints of the "Hays Code", it is a wonder that a designer that does conceive accurate historic costumes, gets any of it into the finished movie. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 10:32:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DEWWRM023617 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:32:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DEVHd5016802 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:31:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DEVE4g078250; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:31:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DEVB4g078216 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:31:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkOJH-0007Ib-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:31:07 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacherwithout matching ''forpart''or underskirt Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:31:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c468e6$120f0ec0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20040712174047.012acea0@pop.surewest.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6DEVB4g078216 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you Joan M. for the lead to Roy Strong's "The English Icon" I will definitely be looking that one up in ILL as a minium. I was able to find a very poor reproduction online of the Elizabeth Buxton image. http://www.noah.norfolk.gov.uk/ShowImage.aspx?Img=http://modesimages.norfolk .gov.uk/Images/fineart\art1619.jpg http://snipurl.com/ElizabethBuxton I am writing the museum as I understand there is a postcard available. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 10:47:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DEltRM023688 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:47:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DEkEd5018189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:46:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DEkA4g088686; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:46:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from batch3.csd.uwm.edu (batch3.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.169.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DEk74g088626 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:46:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jab@uwm.edu) Received: from alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (root@alpha3.csd.uwm.edu [129.89.7.203] (may be forged)) by batch3.csd.uwm.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6DEk3Os004630 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:46:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from uwm.edu ([129.89.154.224]) by alpha3.csd.uwm.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6DEk3fn006780 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:46:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <40F3F5AB.306959DC@uwm.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:46:03 -0500 From: Julie Brautigan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Gwenhevyr's gown sleeve detail X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm wondering about her gown and the detail on the sleeve. I think it is the blue Roman gown. It seems to be open from the shoulder to lower on the forearm and then be closed by two or three gold buttons? How accurate might this be? Adelicia of York _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 11:22:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DFMuRM024108 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:22:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFLpd5022879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:21:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFLe4g016068; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:21:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFLb4g015937 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:21:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1d1.25af0658 (18251) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:21:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1d1.25af0658.2e2557f5@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:21:25 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/12/04 1:42:58 PM Central Daylight Time, brujne@creighton.edu writes: And when was the last good historical movie set from 1370 through the Rennaissance when men had most of the great clothes? First Knight. I thought the women's costumes in First Knight were absolutely, indescribably godawful - they were incorrect as they could be, and also had absolutely no aesthetic value whatsoever. Braveheart's costumes for women were inaccurate, but at least were very beautiful and looked lovely on the cast. Julia Ormond looked like she would have been equally prepared for a Star Trek movie or something vaguely Monty Python. The men, on the other hand, had some fairly cool clothing. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 11:25:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DFPvRM024131 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:25:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFP6d5023185 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:25:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFP54g018680; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:25:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m28.mx.aol.com (imo-m28.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.9]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFNg4g017614 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:23:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.85.106d9be6 (18251) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:23:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <85.106d9be6.2e255876@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:23:34 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/12/04 2:57:01 PM Central Daylight Time, marccarlson20@hotmail.com writes: Personally, I think that any movie that dresses Keira Knightley like that can be forgiven any flaws of accuracy or plot :) Marc (what can I say? I'm so shallow I'm deep...) ROFLMAO! Well, I think that's pretty much the effect that they were hoping for! I can't really say much, because I spent the entire movie trying to peer around whoever was in front of the camera and get another look at Gawain. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 11:26:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DFQoRM024136 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:26:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFOpd5023130 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:24:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFOm4g018460; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:24:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f31.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.81]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFLg4g016026 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:21:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:21:35 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:21:35 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:21:35 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 15:21:35.0881 (UTC) FILETIME=[15FF5790:01C468ED] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Some medieval prices... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I was busy messing with some old texts last night, and in Riley's Memorials, I found a transcription of "Regulations as to wages and prices in the City" 24 Edward III. AD. 1350. Letter-Book F. fol. clxxxi and in it I found the following: Also,—that the tailors shall take for making a gown, garnished with say and with sandel, 18 d. Also,—for a man’s gown, garnished with linen thread and with bokeram, 14 d. Also,—for a cote and hood, 10 d. Also,—for a long gown for a woman, garnished with say or with sendal, 2 s. 6 d. Also,—for a pair of sleeves, to change, 4 d. and Also,—that a pair of shoes of cordwan shall be sold for 6 d., and a pair of shoes of cow-leather for 6 d., and a pair of boots of cordwan and of cow-leather for 3 s. 6 d. ====================================== To give you an idea of how much this would be, the following wages are also set: In the first place,—that the masons, between the Feasts of Easter and St. Michael [29 September], shall take no more by the working-day than 6 d., without victuals or drink; and from the Feast of St. Michael to Easter, for the working-day, 5 d. And upon Feast-days, when they do not work, they shall take nothing. And for the making or mending of their implements they shall take nothing. Also,—that the tilers shall take for the working-day, from the Feast of Easter to St. Michael 5 1/2 d., and from the Feast of St. Michael to Easter 4 1/2 d. Also,—that the labourers shall take in the first half year 3 1/2 d., and in the other half 3 d. Also,—that the master daubers shall take between the Feasts of Easter and St. Michael 5 d.. and in the other half year 4 d.; and their labourers are to take the same as the labourers of the tilers. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 11:38:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DFcDRM024178 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:38:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFbWd5024615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:37:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFbU4g028745; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:37:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m16.mx.aol.com (imo-m16.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.206]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DFbP4g028628 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:37:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.dc.f203167 (18251) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:37:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:37:06 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/12/04 4:43:21 PM Central Daylight Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: > There were several elements very obviously borrowed from other movies > (Braveheart, Robin Hood Prince of Thieves, Gladiator) Well that's enough to keep me away. All those films are awful! Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that. Two of them won Oscars for Best Picture, all of them including the third were resounding commercial successes. I can understand if someone says that they *personally* did not like a movie or certain movies, but just to blanketly declare that they're all "awful?" Huh. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:02:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DG25RM024283 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:02:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DG1Md5027044 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:01:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DG1I4g047827; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:01:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DG1A4g047663 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:01:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f9a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.154]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E05BA26284F for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:01:06 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003101c468f2$a48d3b30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000601c468e6$120f0ec0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacherwithoutmatching ''forpart''or underskirt Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:01:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Saragrace, This is very nice, and interresting two. To me this does not look like a wheel farthingale, more like an oval one. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:31 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacherwithoutmatching ''forpart''or underskirt > Thank you Joan M. for the lead to Roy Strong's "The English Icon" I will > definitely be looking that one up in ILL as a minium. > > I was able to find a very poor reproduction online of the Elizabeth Buxton > image. > > http://www.noah.norfolk.gov.uk/ShowImage.aspx?Img=http://modesimages.norfolk > .gov.uk/Images/fineart\art1619.jpg > > > http://snipurl.com/ElizabethBuxton > > I am writing the museum as I understand there is a postcard available. > > Sg > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:14:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGE8RM024372 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:14:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGCkd5028232 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:12:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGCJ4g056588; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:12:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGBa4g055813 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:11:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f9a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.154]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9095E5EE08D for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:11:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c468f4$1bc809e0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:11:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Viggo Mortensen (last time) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Just wanted to tell you, that i know him, i didnt realise it was that Viggo Mortensen, he has ben used for many danish television series here, and the danish girls love him just like you do! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:22:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGMRRM024405 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:22:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGFud5028545 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:15:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGFu4g059709; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:15:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGDk4g057922 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:13:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.4d.4137de0b (26116) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:13:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <4d.4137de0b.2e25642f@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:13:35 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gwenhevyr's gown sleeve detail To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/13/04 9:47:00 AM Central Daylight Time, jab@uwm.edu writes: I'm wondering about her gown and the detail on the sleeve. I think it is the blue Roman gown. It seems to be open from the shoulder to lower on the forearm and then be closed by two or three gold buttons? How accurate might this be? I am far from an expert on Roman dress, so I can't comment on how accurate it might have been for Rome. I did find it hilarious that anyone, Roman or Woad, would be standing around in winter, in England, wearing one single very thin garment with open sleeves down the arms. Even Romans who were colonizing Britain, would have dressed appropriately for the climate. Togas are splendid when you're standing on a Roman piazza. They're a little silly when you're standing in a British field, watching snowflakes trickle down. I don't know how she did it. Keira Knightly probably has about point oh five percent body fat, so she should get some kind of award for being able to wear those costumes and film without her teeth knocking together, if for no other reason. But I was always mad that Kate Winslet didn't win for Titanic after filming in the freezing water, too. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:30:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGUBRM024436 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:30:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGREd5029587 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:27:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGRC4g068643; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:27:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGR64h068597 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:27:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6DGOwtY021939 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:24:58 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F40D59.6000309@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:27:05 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some medieval prices... References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Marc Carlson wrote: > I was busy messing with some old texts last night, and in Riley's > Memorials, I found a transcription of "Regulations as to wages and > prices in the City" 24 Edward III. AD. 1350. Letter-Book F. fol. clxxxi > and in it I found the following: Hey, keen! Thanks, Marc. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent "Trashy literature is about sex and violence; great literature is about love and death." _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:33:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGXsRM024457 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:33:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGW3d5000114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:32:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGVq4g072401; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:32:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGVC4g071917 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:31:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkQBS-0005eC-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:31:10 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:31:23 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c468f6$d7aded80$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <003101c468f2$a48d3b30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Oval farthingale: was: Portrait of Elizabeth Peake X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Rats, here I was thinking understood what you meant by oval...now I am not sure. Does oval mean eliptical? http://www.matematiksider.dk/ellipser/ellipse_ledelinje.gif Where the waist hole would be centered in this? Or would the hole still be closer to the front? Thanks for your feedback! Sg >-----Original Message----- >Hi Saragrace, >This is very nice, and interresting two. >To me this does not look like a wheel farthingale, more like an oval one. > >Bjarne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:38:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGcrRM024470 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:38:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGcJd5000866 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:38:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGcI4g077468; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:38:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f32.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGXo4g073812 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:33:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:33:44 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:33:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Norris sources Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:33:44 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 16:33:44.0630 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A220560:01C468F7] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have Viollet-le-Duc medieval encyclopedia at home. It was extremely interesting to study the architecture drawings after visiting such places as Notre-Dame de Paris and Carcassonne... His view of restauration are very different from ours. In Carcassonne, he tore down everything that did not date back to the MA, and rebuilt what had been lost with elements taken from similar cities all over France. My main complaint about the result was "it's too clean". Too clean, too flat, too wide. I had a subtle Disneyland aroma - didn't feel like a city people lived in. I find Viollet-le-Duc drawings much better than Norris. It does not mean that one didn't influence the other, or that one is better than the other. I just haven't found an obvious invention yet in the medieval encyclopedia, just some "manipulations", and a some cleanup work. I haven't read most of the text though, so I wouldn't know if there are weird theories in there :-) I mostly just look at the drawings... >From: Appin1@aol.com >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: [h-cost] Norris sources >Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 13:39:22 EDT > >Robin, >I suspect that Norris got a lot of his information from Viollet-le-Duc. >Have >you checked out that source? > >Kathleen >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:41:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGfSRM024479 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:41:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGeSd5001230 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:40:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGeS4g079292; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:40:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGcI4g077461 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:38:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19502 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:42:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:42:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some medieval prices... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6DGcI4g077461 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Marc Carlson wrote: > I was busy messing with some old texts last night, and in Riley's > Memorials ... I don't know this source. Can you give a cite? Thanks! > Also,—for a pair of sleeves, to change, 4 d. In the 14th c.? Wow. Although this brings to mind separate sleeves, that's not typical of what we see in artwork. I wonder if this was to *replace* ("change") worn-out sleeves on an existing garment? Fitted sleeves with buttons might take a lot of wear and need replacing. Or people might want to change a sleeve style to keep up with fashion. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:47:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGl9RM024511 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:47:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGjKd5001767 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:45:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGiI4g082254; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:44:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGgh4g081011 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:42:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6DHDv5c083522 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:13:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6DHDv6S083521 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:13:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:13:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407131713.i6DHDv6S083521@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacherwithout matching ''forpart''or underskirt In-Reply-To: <000601c468e6$120f0ec0$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Thank you Joan M. for the lead to Roy Strong's "The English Icon" I will > definitely be looking that one up in ILL as a minium. > > I was able to find a very poor reproduction online of the Elizabeth Buxton > image. > > http://www.noah.norfolk.gov.uk/ShowImage.aspx?Img=http://modesimages.norfolk > .gov.uk/Images/fineart\art1619.jpg > > > http://snipurl.com/ElizabethBuxton > that image is actually "enlarged" -- if you right click and select "show image" (I think Mac users just hold down the mouse button till the menu shows up) you'll see it at the smaller size that it's supposed to be seen at. It really is a good image. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:48:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGmFRM024523 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:48:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGkUd5001890 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:46:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGjS4g083139; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:45:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f32.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGgt4g081147 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:42:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:42:38 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:42:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] dyeing lace Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:42:38 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 16:42:38.0393 (UTC) FILETIME=[6847CA90:01C468F8] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >I would tea-dye the lace. It's dirt cheap (all you need is a few tea >bags), >and it's an authentic method. Also, you can control the amount of color >that >you add to the lace, which cannot be said of some manufactured dyes. I've heard many times that it will damage the fabric in the long run, that the tannins would react with time and the fabric would desintegrate faster than one dyed with real dye. I have no idea if that's a legend or not, just thought you might want to investigate further before you do it. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:54:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGs4RM024538 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:54:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGrFd5002724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:53:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGrD4g089530; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:53:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGn24g086184 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:49:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.113] (pm7-113.eos.net [205.133.149.113]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGmxEM013660 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:48:59 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:46:40 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407131637.i6DGb94h076280@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: first knight X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > First Knight. > > I thought the women's costumes in First Knight were absolutely, indescribably > godawful - they were incorrect as they could be, and also had absolutely no > aesthetic value whatsoever. Braveheart's costumes for women were inaccurate, > but at least were very beautiful and looked lovely on the cast. Julia Ormond > looked like she would have been equally prepared for a Star Trek movie or > something vaguely Monty Python. > > The men, on the other hand, had some fairly cool clothing. Isn't that the one where the men in "civilian" clothes looked like Klingons? I couldn't make it through the film, myself. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 12:54:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGslRM024541 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:54:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGqwd5002686 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:52:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGqv4g089315; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:52:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGhY4g081762 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:43:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.113] (pm7-113.eos.net [205.133.149.113]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DGhTEM012005 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:43:29 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:41:10 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407130246.i6D2k24h094407@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 516 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO on 7/12/04 10:46 PM,teawiththeblackdragon wrote: > the hair was a wig or hair pieces according to one of the LOTR special I > watched. And Jackson filmed all three movies at once, the beard was stayed > the same in all three. Funny, but my husband has to shave every day. After 18 months, it wouldn't stay the same! My point is that the movie doesn't depict anyone's hair growing. I know, I know, practicality and character recogntion and all that. Still if a person rides around in the wilderness for months, HIS BEARD AND HAIR WILL GROW. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:02:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DH27RM024577 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:02:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DH0Fd5003463 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:00:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DH0E4g095152; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:00:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m22.mx.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DGv64g092541 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:57:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.76.3e1a79da (26116) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:56:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <76.3e1a79da.2e256e59@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:56:57 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: first knight To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/13/04 11:53:30 AM Central Daylight Time, gailscott@eos.net writes: Isn't that the one where the men in "civilian" clothes looked like Klingons? I couldn't make it through the film, myself. Gail Finke I'm not actually sure what the rank and file were wearing, I didn't pay much attention to them. I guess the stuff that I thought was cool was the armor and clothing worn by Arthur's knights. The "bad guys" had the requisite black from head to toe (just once, I'd love to see a movie break that stereotype), I do remember that. Now that you mention it, it seems as though the advisors in Lioness might have been wearing leftover costumes from the Jedi. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:06:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DH6bRM024600 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:06:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DH40d5003889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DH3v4g098179; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:03:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DH2x4g097385 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:02:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040713170257.ZANE28276.out007.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:02:57 -0500 Message-ID: <40F415C3.7020903@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:02:59 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher References: <200407131637.i6DGb94h076280@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407131637.i6DGb94h076280@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:02:57 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Okay, I have a theory here. I'm seeing a recycled, formerly closed high-necked doublet-style bodice here. It's been made fashionable again with the use of turned-back front edges, which reveal an embroidered payre of bodies with a coordinating embroidery added to the turnbacks. Opening it like this allows the bodice and its skirt to have the fashionable late-reign neckline. I'm guessing that the embroidery added to the bodice turned back fronts also serves the purpose of covering up the buttonholes and any wear from using them. Anyone have a copy of QEWU? Mine's at a friend's house so I can't look for any possibly related items. Maura _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:15:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DHFGRM024649 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:15:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHDvd5004830 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:13:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHDt4g006067; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:13:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHDq4g006004 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:13:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040713171350.JTUT9273.out002.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:13:50 -0500 Message-ID: <40F41850.3060904@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:13:52 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re:Re: [h-cost] King Arthur References: <200407131637.i6DGb94h076280@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407131637.i6DGb94h076280@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:13:50 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > >In a message dated 7/12/04 1:42:58 PM Central Daylight Time, >brujne@creighton.edu writes: >And when >was the last good historical movie set from 1370 through the Rennaissance >when men had most of the great clothes? > > > And Tiff said: >First Knight. > Do you mean "Star Trek: First Knight" or "A Knight's Tale"? Cos First Knight had EVERYONE dressed in what looked, to me, for all the world like some new Star Trek uniform. A knight's Tale, OTOH, had at least decent costumes for most of the men (Except Jeff Chaucer, who belonged more on a motorcycle than a horse IMO), while the women looked like they were either from a 70's renfair (bellbottom jumpsuits?) or Mars (the lady love interest, whatshername). Maura _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:26:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DHQuRM024675 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:26:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHP5d5006099 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:25:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHP44g014991; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:25:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHP14h014948 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:25:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6DHMrtY023573 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:22:53 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F41AEC.1000404@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:25:00 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: first knight References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Gail & Scott Finke wrote: >>First Knight. > Isn't that the one where the men in "civilian" clothes looked like Klingons? > I couldn't make it through the film, myself. It was light entertainment. And the noble "armor" looked like a bunch of large metallic pot-holders. Here is a gallery of photos: http://www.erasofelegance.com/fkstills.html#1 Pot-holders can be seen in http://www.erasofelegance.com/fk28a.jpg -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent I read all these British boys' adventure yarns without ever noticing that they weren't addressed to me. -- Lois McMaster Bujold _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:29:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DHTJRM024687 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:29:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHSSd5006623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:28:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHSR4g017903; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:28:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHRg4g017250 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:27:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from outgoing.verizon.net ([192.168.1.4]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040713172740.MME1551.out004.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:27:40 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:27:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [192.168.1.4] at Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:27:40 -0500 Message-Id: <20040713172740.MME1551.out004.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO a bodice comes over the shoulder and a stomacher only covers the stomach. theres my two cents. B > > From: Katie Pleasance > Date: 2004/07/13 Tue PM 12:20:03 CDT > To: Historical Costume > Subject: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher > > Another beginner's question -- What are the differences between a bodice, a > plastron, and a stomacher? > > It seems to me that all are garments that cover the torso, but I don't know > how to distinguish one from the other. > > Katie > > > >I'm seeing a recycled, formerly closed high-necked doublet-style bodice here. > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:30:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DHUVRM024698 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:30:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHKFd5005646 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:20:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHKC4g011160; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:20:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHK84h011110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:20:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6DHNQ79014774 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:23:27 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713101755.02395e90@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:20:03 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance In-Reply-To: <40F415C3.7020903@verizon.net> References: <200407131637.i6DGb94h076280@net.indra.com> <200407131637.i6DGb94h076280@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Another beginner's question -- What are the differences between a bodice, a plastron, and a stomacher? It seems to me that all are garments that cover the torso, but I don't know how to distinguish one from the other. Katie >I'm seeing a recycled, formerly closed high-necked doublet-style bodice here. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:30:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DHUpRM024702 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:30:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHSJd5006601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:28:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHSH4g017746; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:28:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHPa4g015356 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:25:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA00278 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:25:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:25:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003101c468f2$a48d3b30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] 1876 fashion plate from Harper's Bazar X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm looking for a color plate and/or pattern for a Harper's Bazar fashion plate reprinted in black and white in Stella Blum's book of fashions from Harper's Bazar 1867-1898. The original plate was dated(I believe)9-6-1876 and was possibly on the cover. The description was a promenade toilette consisting of a dark cream silk faille princess dress buttoned diagnally down its length. It was trimmed in gathered lace and silk faille platings with a half-overdress of striped India silk also trimmed. Cardinal red bows decorated the bodice, sleeves, straw bonnet/hat and a matching cardinal red silk parasol trimmed in the same lace completed the ensemble. I would love to recreate the outfit for a doll--but, of course, colors have changed over time--what is dark cream, ivory, and cardinal red to us may have been slightly different shades then. Plus a color plate or copy of it would make a wonderful backdrop to display the doll. If the pattern was printed in a HB supplement, I'd love to have it too(although I'd have to hunt it down on the pages with twenty other scale patterns on the same page)as the plate doesn't show the front of the dress or the full view of the back. I have the Blum book at home and my local library has many old issues in b&w on microfilm. Cindy Abel -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:01 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrastingstomacherwithoutmatching ''forpart''or underskirt Hi Saragrace, This is very nice, and interresting two. To me this does not look like a wheel farthingale, more like an oval one. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 4:31 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacherwithoutmatching ''forpart''or underskirt > Thank you Joan M. for the lead to Roy Strong's "The English Icon" I will > definitely be looking that one up in ILL as a minium. > > I was able to find a very poor reproduction online of the Elizabeth Buxton > image. > > http://www.noah.norfolk.gov.uk/ShowImage.aspx?Img=http://modesimages.norfolk > .gov.uk/Images/fineart\art1619.jpg > > > http://snipurl.com/ElizabethBuxton > > I am writing the museum as I understand there is a postcard available. > > Sg > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:38:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DHclRM024723 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:38:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHYrd5007288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:34:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHYo4g022979; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:34:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHVh4g020526 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:31:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkR82-0005bu-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:31:42 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacherwithoutmatching ''forpart''or underskirt Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:31:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c468ff$4ca1d540$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <200407131713.i6DHDv6S083521@sabre.goldsword.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >that image is actually "enlarged" -- if you right click and select "show >image" (I think Mac users just hold down the mouse button till the menu >shows up) you'll see it at the smaller size that it's supposed to be seen at. >It really is a good image. > >Jerusha [Sg] I wonder if that is a browser specific option. I don't get that selection (even greyed out) in IE.... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 13:41:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DHfIRM024731 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:41:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHdcd5007770 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:39:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHdb4g026879; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:39:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHdT4h026791 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:39:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6DHgi79020166 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:42:47 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713103724.023959f8@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:39:21 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: <20040713172740.MME1551.out004.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon .net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO So ... the sides of the stomacher are laced to a bodice? >a bodice comes over the shoulder and a stomacher only covers the stomach. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:03:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DI32RM024803 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:03:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DI1rd5010098 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:01:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DI1m4g044641; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:01:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DI1h4g044546 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:01:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20078 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:05:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:05:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713103724.023959f8@mail.katiesorchids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > So ... the sides of the stomacher are laced to a bodice? > > >a bodice comes over the shoulder and a stomacher only covers the > stomach. I think you may be asking for more precision than it's possible to get with costume terminology. Historic costume terms in general are not standard. You'll have the way a term was used historically -- which often changes from era to era or region to region -- and then you'll have the way it's been used by later historians, which can vary widely from one author to another. Even sources like the Oxford English Dictionary are often vague, incomplete, or wrong when it comes to defining costume terms, because the lexicographers based their definitions on the writing of costume historians. It can be a real tangled mess, particularly when you have modern writers using terms that have accepted modern meanings, trying to describe historic dress that may have used the same terms in different ways, or different terms for a given item. So, "bodice" can mean a separate garment, or a part of a dress, generally covering the area from shoulder to waist, but not necessarily with shoulder straps -- depending on who's using the term. It's probably safe to say that a "stomacher" covers the stomach; depending on who you're listening to, it might mean part of a larger garment that's visibly distinct or decorative, or a separate piece that's pinned or laced or hooked to another garment, or a garment in itself that's wrapped around the torso. I've typically heard "plastron" used to describe an ornamental front piece, such as that on a 14th/15th c. sideless surcote, but that's probably a later historian's term that stuck -- I have no idea what they called that part of the garment in period, if they even had a separate name. And no doubt "plastron" has been used in other ways in other periods. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:16:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DIGfRM024837 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:16:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIG0d5011727 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:16:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIFs4g056108; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:15:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIFq4g055921 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:15:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BkRoZ-000I0R-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:15:40 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:14:05 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Historic ironing and hearths References: <009b01c46877$20f0b7a0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> In-Reply-To: <009b01c46877$20f0b7a0$6401a8c0@VMAAHQ> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Linda Rice wrote >As usual, I'm weeks behind in reading mail, so please forgive me if >I've missed the boat yet again. > >Here's an interesting item, I thought: >http://www.anteques.com/srv/antaday/1189.htm > >It doesn't say if this was used heated or not, but I would guess that >if you did heat it, you'd >have to be pretty careful not to crack it. Perhaps just the weight and >shape was sufficient to >press out the cloth? > >Pax, >::Linda:: > That looks to me like a very fancy version. Perhaps it was intended for delicate fabrics and embroidery, that wouldn't need much persuasion to smooth out? I would have expected something altogether bigger and uglier for serious ironing! I note the sad iron/flatiron on the same site says they were used from the 16th century - maybe that was what they had below stairs. Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:17:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DIHORM024840 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:17:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHnLd5008713 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:49:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHnG4g034591; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:49:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out009.verizon.net (out009pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DHn84g034483 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:49:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from outgoing.verizon.net ([192.168.1.4]) by out009.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040713174907.RWCN29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:49:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:49:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [192.168.1.4] at Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:49:07 -0500 Message-Id: <20040713174907.RWCN29216.out009.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ohh, no, sorry misunderstanding A bodice comes over the stomach AND has straps that go over the sholder, sometimes cut as part of the front and sometimes not. A stomacher just goes over the stomach, no straps at all :) > > From: Katie Pleasance > Date: 2004/07/13 Tue PM 12:39:21 CDT > To: Historical Costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher > > So ... the sides of the stomacher are laced to a bodice? > > >a bodice comes over the shoulder and a stomacher only covers the stomach. > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:21:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DILFRM024846 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:21:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIIsd5012015 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:18:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIIq4g058297; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:18:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIIa4g058119 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:18:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from aquazoo@patriot.net) Received: from webmail.patriot.net (vanburen.patriot.net [209.249.176.8]) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id i6DIIaRL027605 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:18:36 -0400 Received: from 64.156.242.54 (SquirrelMail authenticated user aquazoo) by webmail.patriot.net with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1821.64.156.242.54.1089742714.squirrel@webmail.patriot.net> In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713103724.023959f8@mail.katiesorchids.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher From: aquazoo@patriot.net To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO For 18th century, a stomacher is the triangular piece that goes from the bustline to a bit below the waist. I'm curious when you say the somacher covers the stomach - is there an era or fashion where it covers only the stomach and does not go up to the bust? That's the fun of a multi-era costume list! :-) -Carol Robin wrote, > It's probably safe to say that a "stomacher" covers the stomach; depending > on who you're listening to, it might mean part of a larger garment that's > visibly distinct or decorative, or a separate piece that's pinned or laced > or hooked to another garment, or a garment in itself that's wrapped around > the torso. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:28:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DISURM024864 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:28:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIQ7d5012497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:26:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIQ34g063826; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:26:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIQ04h063687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:26:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6DITD79001342 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:29:15 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713111238.02482ff8@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:25:52 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713103724.023959f8@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Okay, >>as used by the current costuming/garb community:<< (i.e., the various Yahoo costume/garb lists) This is my understanding of a bodice . >So, "bodice" can mean a separate garment, or a part of a dress, generally >covering the area from shoulder to waist, but not necessarily with >shoulder straps -- depending on who's using the term. So, a stomacher can be a part of a bodice or a separate garment that overlays the stomach part of the bodice? Can it be used in place of a bodice? In this case isn't it a bodice with a different name? >It's probably safe to say that a "stomacher" covers the stomach; depending >on who you're listening to, it might mean part of a larger garment that's >visibly distinct or decorative, or a separate piece that's pinned or laced >or hooked to another garment, or a garment in itself that's wrapped around >the torso. And ... a plastron is a stomacher by a different name ... used to refer to garments of an earlier period than when stomacher was used? >I've typically heard "plastron" used to describe an ornamental front >piece, such as that on a 14th/15th c. sideless surcote, but that's >probably a later historian's term that stuck -- I have no idea what they >called that part of the garment in period, if they even had a separate >name. And no doubt "plastron" has been used in other ways in other >periods. In summary, both stomacher and plastron refer to a *heavily ornamented* garment or a garment that was *constructed of extremely luxurious fabric/fur* that may or may not be part of the bodice? The essence is in the ornamentation / luxuriousness of the fabric or fur? Katie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:29:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DITURM024876 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:29:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIMAd5012280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:22:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIM34g060756; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:22:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIKF4g059324 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:20:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f9a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.154]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 96F0D47FF50 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:20:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001401c46906$1975d750$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c468f6$d7aded80$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Oval farthingale: was: Portrait of Elizabeth Peake Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:20:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sorry about the rats, i was making a coment of the portrait you sended. It seems that in the behind it either goes down or isnt there, as a real wheelfarthingale would. But the picture is rather dark, perhaps it is there, but isnt visible anymore. Hence the oval coment. That it only goes out to the sides and not behind) Does this make sence? Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:31 PM Subject: [h-cost] Oval farthingale: was: Portrait of Elizabeth Peake > Rats, here I was thinking understood what you meant by oval...now I am not > sure. Does oval mean eliptical? > http://www.matematiksider.dk/ellipser/ellipse_ledelinje.gif > Where the waist hole would be centered in this? Or would the hole still be > closer to the front? > > Thanks for your feedback! > > Sg > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >Hi Saragrace, > >This is very nice, and interresting two. > >To me this does not look like a wheel farthingale, more like an oval one. > > > >Bjarne > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:31:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DIVDRM024887 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:31:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIStd5012757 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:28:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DISr4g065936; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:28:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53003.mail.yahoo.com (web53003.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.193]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6DIRh4g065010 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:27:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from aureliarufinia@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040713182737.8486.qmail@web53003.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [18.152.6.209] by web53003.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:27:37 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:27:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Aurelia Rufinia To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407131637.i6DGb94i076280@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Roman sleeve detail - King Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In parts: -------------------- I'm wondering about her gown and the detail on the sleeve. I think it is the blue Roman gown. It seems to be open from the shoulder to lower on the forearm and then be closed by two or three gold buttons? How accurate might this be? -------------------- There are many examples of this TYPE of top closure (I hesititate to call them "sleeves" because there was no shaping involved... just belting to create a sleeved effect). All the ones I have seen have four or more along the length of the arm... not just one or two with a hanging thing past the elbow. Again, I see where they were kinda of going with this dress, but it's not accurate by any stretch of the imagination. ---------------------- I am far from an expert on Roman dress, so I can't comment on how accurate it might have been for Rome. I did find it hilarious that anyone, Roman or Woad, would be standing around in winter, in England, wearing one single very thin garment with open sleeves down the arms. Even Romans who were colonizing Britain, would have dressed appropriately for the climate. ------------------------ I have two doric chitons (wide rectangles that cover my arm span, with open edges at the top that are kind of catch stiched at four places from shoulder to wrist on each side) that are wool and I have worn, quite comfortably, in below freezing weather. Other than being flimsy material, she is also missing the palla, wrap, that no woman left the private areas of the house without. Most of mine are linen, but I have one very thick, very warm wool one. But then, I'm originally from Minnesota, so our standards of cold weather are different from most. Aurelia ===== Baroness Aurelia Rufinia House Iron Maiden, Barony of Carolingia, East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat "27 lawyers in the room, anyone know "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc"? Josh?" "Post - after, after hoc, ergo - therefore, "After hoc, therefore" something else hoc." "Thank you. Next?" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:42:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DIgNRM024934 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:42:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIdrd5013742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:39:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIdo4g074500; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:39:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIdm4g074451 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:39:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20355 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:43:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:43:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: <1821.64.156.242.54.1089742714.squirrel@webmail.patriot.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I wrote: > > It's probably safe to say that a "stomacher" covers the stomach... Carol wrote: > I'm curious when you say the somacher covers the stomach - is > there an era or fashion where it covers only the stomach and does not > go up to the bust? Probably :-) I wouldn't be surprised if there's some late medieval German or Italian style with a piece showing behind the midriff lacing that some historian has called a stomacher, for instance. However, when I wrote "it's safe to say it covers the stomach," I wasn't being prescriptive or suggesting that the stomacher covers *only* the stomach. My whole point is that the terms are used in various ways. I meant only that the one thing the various meanings of "stomacher" seem to have in common is that the term refers to some sort of covering for the front of the torso. Beyond that, I don't think we can make any generalizations about exactly how much it covers or how large it is or how it's worn or how it's attached, unless we're talking about a specific fashion in a specific place and time. In your case, you stated that "For 18th century, a stomacher is the triangular piece that goes from the bustline to a bit below the waist." The meaning might change in a different period, or for a different region than you have in mind. (One of the first things I do in every one of my papers is to define my terms, or I'll find I go through half the lecture/paper with some of my listeners/readers assuming I'm talking about an entirely different type of garment than I intend.) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:47:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DIlhRM024956 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:47:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIkmd5014327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:46:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIkl4g079937; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:46:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIkj4g079905 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:46:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B377727891 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:46:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p657.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.213.150]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A7923C5E9 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:46:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Gwenhevyr's gown sleeve detail Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:46:58 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <4d.4137de0b.2e25642f@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- I am far from an expert on Roman dress, so I can't comment on how accurate it might have been for Rome. I did find it hilarious that anyone, Roman or Woad, would be standing around in winter, in England, wearing one single very thin garment with open sleeves down the arms. Even Romans who were colonizing Britain, would have dressed appropriately for the climate. ~~~~~~~ Though I have not seen the movie. I believe Gwenhevyr was Celt or Brit and therefore should have been acclimated to the areas weather. If you were to go to S. Dakota in winter you can see many NAs walking around with short sleeves. So I can see the "possibility' that an indigenous islander might not wear as much as a Roman who is from a warmer climate. my two cents. De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 14:53:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DIr6RM024972 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:53:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DInnd5014569 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:49:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DInl4g082206; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:49:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DImT4g081185 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:48:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6DJJs5c084555 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:19:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6DJJrt8084554 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:19:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407131919.i6DJJrt8084554@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacherwithoutmatching ''forpart''or underskirt In-Reply-To: <000601c468ff$4ca1d540$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > >that image is actually "enlarged" -- if you right click and select "show > >image" (I think Mac users just hold down the mouse button till the menu > >shows up) you'll see it at the smaller size that it's supposed to be seen > at. > >It really is a good image. > > > >Jerusha > [Sg] I wonder if that is a browser specific option. I don't get that > selection (even greyed out) in IE.... ok -- IE version 6 on a Win2K machine ..... the "show picture" is greyed out, but it's the first choice after the first horizontal separator -- just above "save picture as" You'd have to do the Save Picture As -- and then open it in something else. One of the many reasons (not even counting the Security Holes) that I despise IE! Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:00:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DJ0ORM025027 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:00:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIx4d5015366 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:59:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIx14g089310; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:59:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DIww4g089253 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:58:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f9a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.154]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CDCE25EE277 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:58:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <007a01c4690b$828f6990$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c468f6$d7aded80$6a01a8c0@SG01> <001401c46906$1975d750$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Oval farthingale: was: Portrait of Elizabeth Peake Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:59:22 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Saragrace, Yes this is the shape i ment when i said oval. And in this portrait, the waist would be cut close to the edge of the elipse in the front. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Oval farthingale: was: Portrait of Elizabeth Peake > Sorry about the rats, i was making a coment of the portrait you sended. > It seems that in the behind it either goes down or isnt there, as a real > wheelfarthingale would. But the picture is rather dark, perhaps it is there, > but isnt visible anymore. > Hence the oval coment. That it only goes out to the sides and not behind) > Does this make sence? > > Bjarne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" > To: "'Historical Costume'" > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:31 PM > Subject: [h-cost] Oval farthingale: was: Portrait of Elizabeth Peake > > > > Rats, here I was thinking understood what you meant by oval...now I am not > > sure. Does oval mean eliptical? > > http://www.matematiksider.dk/ellipser/ellipse_ledelinje.gif > > Where the waist hole would be centered in this? Or would the hole still > be > > closer to the front? > > > > Thanks for your feedback! > > > > Sg > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > > >Hi Saragrace, > > >This is very nice, and interresting two. > > >To me this does not look like a wheel farthingale, more like an oval one. > > > > > >Bjarne > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:09:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DJ9MRM025067 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:09:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJ2Cd5015656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:02:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJ2A4g091721; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:02:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJ064g090191 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:00:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20496 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:04:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:04:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713111238.02482ff8@mail.katiesorchids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > So, a stomacher can be a part of a bodice or a separate garment that > overlays the stomach part of the bodice? Can it be used in place of a > bodice? In this case isn't it a bodice with a different name? I'm sure that somewhere there's a garment that some historian will point to and say "that's a bodice" while another historian points to the same thing and says "that's a stomacher." The wearer may have used one of those terms, or both interchangeably, or something else entirely. That doesn't mean that most costume historians would assume the two words mean the same thing, but rather that these are variable terms that have different applications that may occasionally overlap. This is precisely the problem with trying to make a blanket definition. You can't say "stomacher" or "bodice" means X unless you also specify *when* and *where* you're talking about, and even then there might be variation in the style or the terms used for it. And you often have to sit down with the people you're talking with and determine whether you're using a term in a particular way, or some people will hear a particular historic meaning, and others will hear a modern meaning, and everyone will have something different in mind. If someone mentions a "bodice" or "stomacher" and you aren't sure what they mean in a given case, ask them; they may be using the term more loosely or more specifically than you expect. We just went through this on another thread with "wimple," which is used in two or three different ways depending on what period you're used to dealing with. Even for modern clothing, terminology varies -- as a friend pointed out when she opened a costume lecture for a mixed British-American audience by saying that she had considered giving her talk in knickers and a vest. > And ... a plastron is a stomacher by a different name ... used to > refer to garments of an earlier period than when stomacher was used? By some authors, but not universally. And I wouldn't say the plastron, in the particular application to the 14th c. sideless surcote that I cited, is "a stomacher by a different name," because the term "stomacher" can imply a separate piece that's attached each time you dress, and the surcote plastron is part of the garment. But there may be another type of plastron in another period that works differently. And not all stomachers were separate pieces. Again, you have to define *where* and *when.* > In summary, both stomacher and plastron refer to a *heavily > ornamented* garment or a garment that was *constructed of extremely > luxurious fabric/fur* that may or may not be part of the bodice? The > essence is in the ornamentation / luxuriousness of the fabric or fur? I think you are trying to establish a level of specificity that cannot be achieved, given how varied the definitions can be for these terms. You can say (for instance) that a 14th century plastron on a sideless surcote is similar to / different from a stomacher of such-and-so fashion in X century and Y place, in certain particular ways. But I really don't think you can establish a definition or distinction across the board that will be universally recognized by people writing about costume history. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:21:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DJL1RM025105 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:21:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJIsd5017372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:18:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJIn4g004931; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:18:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJIi4h004810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:18:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6DJLu79016233 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:21:58 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713121214.024e9420@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:18:34 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713111238.02482ff8@mail.katiesorchids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I appreciate what you are saying, Robin. I'm not looking for an academic definition but a way of determining what is being referred to when a picture is being discussed. For example, I cannot tell the difference between a stomacher and a fancy bodice in Elizabethan paintings. Some are referred to as stomachers and some are referred to as bodices and I cannot tell the difference. So my question in this case would be -- is there a difference between a stomacher and a fancy bodice in Elizabethan paintings and how do I tell them apart? Or am I just dense and not seeing what everybody else sees? Katie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:29:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DJT6RM025133 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:29:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJSUd5018369 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:28:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJST4g012553; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:28:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJSR4g012520 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:28:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.187.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.187]) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkSx0-0007L8-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:28:26 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:27:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chinese Peacock hat was Re: plaid cotehardie/Alphonso X From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks! Similar idea, but not quite the same. This one looks to me more like a "felt" hat with possible a cockade of peacock feathers. But who can really tell with some of this artwork? The one in the cantigas is extremely conical, and the peacock feathers completely cover the hat. The are laid down so the the eyes of the feathers point down, sort of like thatching a roof. I still want to make one...just need more examples.... Grace/Jessamyn > From: "Wanda Pease" > If you look at image 32 from the Manesse > http://www.tempora-nostra.de/index_f_neu.shtml?manesse0-9 > you will see the rider is wearing a rather "chinese coolie hat" decorated > with peacock feathers. > > Regina _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:36:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DJa9RM025154 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:36:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJXHd5018844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:33:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJXE4g016288; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:33:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJXC4g016245 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:33:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.45.53]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040713193306.JUMB3317.out006.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:33:06 -0500 Message-ID: <003101c46910$3a85d8a0$352d2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713103724.023959f8@mail.katiesorchids.com> <1821.64.156.242.54.1089742714.squirrel@webmail.patriot.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:32:59 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.33.45.53] at Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:33:01 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Many actually, I was reading of a 14c. (?) Norman stomacher that is only stomach and some hip. Also, several 'Gypsy' costumes have stomachers that don't cover the bust, but I believe that is from lat 17c. to current costumes. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher > > For 18th century, a stomacher is the triangular piece that goes from > the bustline to a bit below the waist. > > I'm curious when you say the somacher covers the stomach - is there > an era or fashion where it covers only the stomach and does not go up > to the bust? > > That's the fun of a multi-era costume list! :-) > > -Carol > > > Robin wrote, > > It's probably safe to say that a "stomacher" covers the stomach; depending > > on who you're listening to, it might mean part of a larger garment that's > > visibly distinct or decorative, or a separate piece that's pinned or laced > > or hooked to another garment, or a garment in itself that's wrapped around > > the torso. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:38:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DJcgRM025172 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:38:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJaad5019188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:36:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJaX4g018922; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:36:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJZi4g018232 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:35:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jill@jigrah.co.uk) Received: from HP411.jigrah.co.uk ([80.6.241.239]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040713190014.WXTT1023.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@HP411.jigrah.co.uk> for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:00:14 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20040713200115.00b33ff0@pop.oneandone.co.uk> X-Sender: pt8296337-1938@pop.oneandone.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:02:19 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jill Hadfield Subject: Re: [h-cost] British India 1906ish In-Reply-To: <00f001c45d0e$99bc3430$5ca810ac@Kate> References: <062720042200.4178.40DF437D000A0AD60000105221602806519C9C0A0B0B0109090207990A9C@att.net> <200406272112.41318.cathy@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-31B81F9A; boundary="=======5F2A466E=======" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --=======5F2A466E======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-31B81F9A; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know this is a bit late, but I have some photos taken in Simla in 1913. Will these be of any use? Jill At 08:51 28/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: >I need images of Brisih military uniforms for early 20th cent. Would also >like to know what the women wore. My guess is that it would be the same as >England but in Indian cottons? >Thanks for any help. >Kate > JiGraH Resources - www.jigrah.co.uk --=======5F2A466E======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --=======5F2A466E=======-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:51:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DJpdRM025236 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:51:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJoqd5021007 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:50:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJom4g030596; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:50:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJok4g030562 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:50:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkTIb-00047B-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:50:45 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Oval farthingale: was: Portrait of Elizabeth Peake Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:51:01 -0700 Message-ID: <003301c46912$b9a4a740$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <007a01c4690b$828f6990$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Got it now! Oh, and did you understand rats!? It means darn (a nice version of damn). :) >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews >Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:59 AM >To: Historical Costume >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Oval farthingale: was: Portrait of Elizabeth Peake > >Hi Saragrace, >Yes this is the shape i ment when i said oval. And in this portrait, the >waist would be cut close to the edge of the elipse in the front. > >Bjarne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:55:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DJtcRM025248 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:55:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJsld5021510 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:54:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJsk4g033803; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:54:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJsP4g033499 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:54:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkTM7-0004u6-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:54:23 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:54:39 -0700 Message-ID: <003401c46913$3b901550$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <40F415C3.7020903@verizon.net> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6DJsP4g033499 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Something like this though I don't know that it is recycled. Several of QEW's portraits have such arrangements. Sometimes it has a half skirt attached to it and it becomes an overgown of sorts. Check out the Ditchley for example. The undergown is white, and the lining of the overgown matches the white. The outside of it is a deep red apparently. I will be posting some clips of Elizabeth R soon on my website that catch Hunnicsetts interpretation of the gown on film. Sg >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Maura Folsom >Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 10:03 AM >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher > > >Okay, I have a theory here. > >I'm seeing a recycled, formerly closed high-necked doublet-style bodice >here. It's been made fashionable again with the use of turned-back front >edges, which reveal an embroidered payre of bodies with a coordinating >embroidery added to the turnbacks. Opening it like this allows the >bodice and its skirt to have the fashionable late-reign neckline. I'm >guessing that the embroidery added to the bodice turned back fronts also >serves the purpose of covering up the buttonholes and any wear from >using them. > >Anyone have a copy of QEWU? Mine's at a friend's house so I can't look >for any possibly related items. > >Maura >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 15:56:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DJuSRM025257 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:56:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJsXd5021472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:54:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJsV4g033600; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:54:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DJqc4g032044 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:52:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6DJqafA021612 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:52:45 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] question on hoods X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi folks... I have a question concerning the cut of a hood with shoulder cape just about 1340-1350. Now I have alerady looked through Marc's excellent site -- and I already knew of the Herjolfsnes hood, and the Bocksten finds... and none of them answered my question. What is the opinion of this group.... Would a hood and shoulder cape for the nobility of the 1340-1350 period be pieced - as a preference? I would love an extant garment - if anyone knows of one. Factors to think about... the Herjolfsnes hoods were probably woven on an upright loom - so there may be a definate width issue. the nobility had access to foreign and much higher quality of cloths. But were they necessarily wider? Frugality is a virtue of the poor. At this time in noble circles the idea of "conspicuous consumption" was gaining ground. So would it be perceived as "poor practice" to piece a small garment - such as a hood? Yes, I know of several larger garments that are pieced - usually in the skirt. NOT prominently on the head and shoulders. I would love someone to discuss/argue/compare opinions with on this one. Thanks, Mari / Bridgette _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:06:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DK6gRM025290 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:06:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DK4wd5022634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:04:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DK4s4g042199; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:04:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from secure4.netll.com (secure4.netll.com [208.38.152.40]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DK4p4h042121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:04:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lithiate@secure4.netll.com) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.34) id 1BkTWK-0000OY-FX for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:04:56 -0400 From: "Sarah Lorraine" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.26 X-IPAddress: 156.41.170.32 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:04:56 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > In a message dated 7/12/04 4:43:21 PM Central Daylight Time, > AlbertCat@aol.com writes: > > There were several elements very obviously borrowed from other movies > > (Braveheart, Robin Hood Prince of Thieves, Gladiator) > > Well that's enough to keep me away. All those films are awful! > > > Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that. Two of them won > Oscars for Best Picture, all of them including the third were resounding > commercial successes. I can understand if someone says that they *personally* did > not like a movie or certain movies, but just to blanketly declare that they're > all "awful?" Huh. Just because a movie wins an Oscar, doesn't mean it's any good. ;) I agree with AlbertCat, honestly. None of those movies appealed to me and this new Arthur flick isn't making me want to rush out and see it in the theater, either. Maybe when it comes out on video, but even then, it's not a high priority on my list. I am a costume snob, I'll admit it. I do enjoy "flicks" with absolutely no historical value what-so-ever, but it's very hard for me to turn off the running costume-related dialog in my brain, so I tend not to go out of my way to see these types of movies. I have no problem with people who do enjoy them, though... :) Sarah http://www.modehistorique.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:15:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DKFnRM025330 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:15:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKDqd5023569 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:13:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKDo4g049578; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:13:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m25.mx.aol.com (imo-m25.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKDl4g049462 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:13:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.dc.f2542e6 (4206) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:13:35 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:13:34 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/13/2004 11:22:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > The men, on the other hand, had some fairly cool clothing. > > Really? Those shield thingies on the shoulder? Yuck! So....how did the Glen Close/Patrick Stewart "Lion in Winter" do? I can't watch it. I hate "Lion in Winter" too. I hate everything this week....which is weird because I fell pretty good! :-P _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:17:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DKHvRM025342 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:17:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKHNd5023926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:17:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKHL4g052477; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:17:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKFk4g051092 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:15:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.d8.f20e777 (4206) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:15:29 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:15:28 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/13/2004 11:38:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > Two of them won > Oscars for Best Picture, all of them including the third were resounding > commercial successes. Woop de doo.... Thank God these criteria don't determine what's worthwhile. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:21:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DKLvRM025360 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:21:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKKhd5024282 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:20:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKKe4g055166; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:20:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m22.mx.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKJV4g054224 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:19:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.6.2dc9ae3c (4206) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:19:22 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <6.2dc9ae3c.2e259dca@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:19:22 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/13/2004 4:05:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, sarah@modehistorique.com writes: > I have no > problem with people who do enjoy them, though... :) > Neither do I. Thank goodness we're not all the same. Besides we'd miss the good natured [I assure that's how I mean it....you can't hear the inflection in my voice with e-mail] banter back and forth. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:33:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DKX2RM025434 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:33:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKVrd5025564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:31:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKVm4g064567; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:31:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKVg4g064318 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:31:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BkTw2-0001kc-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:31:30 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:30:41 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] question on hoods References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO M Stewart wrote > >Hi folks... > >I have a question concerning the cut of a hood with shoulder cape just >about 1340-1350. > >Now I have alerady looked through Marc's excellent site -- and I >already knew of the Herjolfsnes hood, and the Bocksten finds... and >none of them answered my question. > > What is the opinion of this group.... > Would a hood and shoulder cape for the nobility of the >1340-1350 period be pieced - as a preference? > > I would love an extant garment - if anyone knows of one. > > Factors to think about... > the Herjolfsnes hoods were probably woven on an upright loom - >so there may be a definate width issue. > the nobility had access to foreign and much higher quality of >cloths. But were they necessarily wider? > Frugality is a virtue of the poor. At this time in noble >circles the idea of "conspicuous consumption" was gaining ground. So >would it be perceived as "poor practice" to piece a small garment - >such as a hood? Yes, I know of several larger garments that are >pieced - usually in the skirt. NOT prominently on the head and shoulders. > > I would love someone to discuss/argue/compare opinions with on >this one. > > Thanks, > Mari / Bridgette __________________________________________ I have to confess I had never looked at Marc's examples of hoods before. I am absolutely stunned by the Bocksten example, cut in a single piece. The others seem to be cut mainly in two pieces, except for the liripipe. I'm not sure if we can tell whether the gores in the cape are due to lack of cloth, or deliberate for shaping. Where were you thinking the piecing would be? Do you mean along the length of the liripipe, or in the head or in the cape? Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:47:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DKl9RM025500 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:47:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKind5026970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:44:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKii4g075251; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:44:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jetspin.drizzle.com (jetspin.drizzle.com [216.162.192.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKic4h075156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:44:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from tayla@sablerose.net) Received: from tristinss1 (tide143.microsoft.com [207.46.238.143] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by jetspin.drizzle.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6DKiJ92027625 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:44:20 -0700 Message-ID: <04bc01c4691a$341f7700$07281018@redmond.corp.microsoft.com> From: "Sablerose" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Subject: Re: [h-cost] question on hoods Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:44:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Can someone provide a link to the mentioned site? I'm quite interested in hoods from this period and would love to look.... Tayla ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean Waddie" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] question on hoods > M Stewart wrote > > > >Hi folks... > > > >I have a question concerning the cut of a hood with shoulder cape just > >about 1340-1350. > > > >Now I have alerady looked through Marc's excellent site -- and I > >already knew of the Herjolfsnes hood, and the Bocksten finds... and > >none of them answered my question. > > > > What is the opinion of this group.... > > Would a hood and shoulder cape for the nobility of the > >1340-1350 period be pieced - as a preference? > > > > I would love an extant garment - if anyone knows of one. > > > > Factors to think about... > > the Herjolfsnes hoods were probably woven on an upright loom - > >so there may be a definate width issue. > > the nobility had access to foreign and much higher quality of > >cloths. But were they necessarily wider? > > Frugality is a virtue of the poor. At this time in noble > >circles the idea of "conspicuous consumption" was gaining ground. So > >would it be perceived as "poor practice" to piece a small garment - > >such as a hood? Yes, I know of several larger garments that are > >pieced - usually in the skirt. NOT prominently on the head and shoulders. > > > > I would love someone to discuss/argue/compare opinions with on > >this one. > > > > Thanks, > > Mari / Bridgette __________________________________________ > > I have to confess I had never looked at Marc's examples of hoods before. > I am absolutely stunned by the Bocksten example, cut in a single piece. > The others seem to be cut mainly in two pieces, except for the liripipe. > I'm not sure if we can tell whether the gores in the cape are due to > lack of cloth, or deliberate for shaping. > > Where were you thinking the piecing would be? Do you mean along the > length of the liripipe, or in the head or in the cape? > > Jean > > > -- > Jean Waddie > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:52:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DKqoRM025524 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:52:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKoxd5027635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:50:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKou4g080354; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:50:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f11.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.61]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKmw4g078641 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:48:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:48:51 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:48:51 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:48:51 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 20:48:51.0720 (UTC) FILETIME=[CDDE9880:01C4691A] Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Some medieval prices... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO >From: Cynthia Virtue > > I was busy messing with some old texts last night, and in Riley's > > Memorials, I found a transcription of "Regulations as to wages and > > prices in the City" 24 Edward III. AD. 1350. Letter-Book F. fol. clxxxi > > and in it I found the following: >Hey, keen! Thanks, Marc. My pleasure. I was actually looking for stuff on shoes and that just lept out at me. Marc _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:53:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DKrFRM025527 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:53:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKpNd5027683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:51:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKpK4g080677; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:51:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKnH4g078884 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:49:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21353 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:53:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:53:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713121214.024e9420@mail.katiesorchids.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > I'm not looking for an academic definition but a way of determining > what is being referred to when a picture is being discussed. > > For example, I cannot tell the difference between a stomacher and a > fancy bodice in Elizabethan paintings. Some are referred to as > stomachers and some are referred to as bodices and I cannot tell the > difference. So my question in this case would be -- is there a > difference between a stomacher and a fancy bodice in Elizabethan > paintings and how do I tell them apart? Aha. Specifying "Elizabethan" will go a long way to helping answer that question. I'll leave the specific answer to the Elizabethan experts here -- my interest in Elizabethan rests solely around the hips -- but my impression is that even the experts don't always agree on whether a particular part of a costume is one item or another. (I can think of a number of discussions on the line of "is that a chemise, or a partlet and matching sleeves?") So a decorative piece on the front of a dress might be an integral part of the bodice made with decorative fabric, an entirely separate piece added while dressing, an attached flap that covers part of a bodice layer, or something else entirely, and it might be impossible to tell without corroborative evidence. It may also be (and I'd be interested in knowing how people on this list use the words) that people are using "stomacher" simply to refer to that particular *visual* part of the costume regardless of how it's attached or constructed. If that's so, then what you see in a particular image might be referred to as either a bodice or a stomacher; your choice of terms would depend only on whether you're calling attention to "the whole body section above the waist" or "the decorative part specifically." But I don't normally talk about these things, so I don't know how the terms are used on this list. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 16:59:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DKxPRM025567 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:59:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKwhd5028425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:58:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKwg4g086865; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:58:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DKvi4g086086 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:57:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6DLT85c085687 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6DLT8sl085686 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407132129.i6DLT8sl085686@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713121214.024e9420@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I appreciate what you are saying, Robin. > > I'm not looking for an academic definition but a way of determining what is > being referred to when a picture is being discussed. > > For example, I cannot tell the difference between a stomacher and a fancy > bodice in Elizabethan paintings. Some are referred to as stomachers and > some are referred to as bodices and I cannot tell the difference. So my > question in this case would be -- is there a difference between a stomacher > and a fancy bodice in Elizabethan paintings and how do I tell them apart? to me -- a stomacher is that part in the center -- if there's a separate center. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 17:04:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DL4HRM025598 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:04:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DL3Xd5028944 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:03:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DL3V4g091225; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:03:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f25.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.75]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DL0S4g088132 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:00:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:00:23 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:00:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:00:23 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 21:00:23.0343 (UTC) FILETIME=[6A1BE3F0:01C4691C] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Some medieval prices... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Robin Netherton > > I was busy messing with some old texts last night, and in Riley's > > Memorials ... >I don't know this source. Can you give a cite? Thanks! Absotively. Riley's memorials is more formally Memorials of London and London Life, in the XIIIth, XIVth, and XVth Centuries. Being a Series of Extracts, Local, Social, and Political, from the Early Archives of the City of London, A.D. 1276-1419. Trans. by H. T. Riley. London: Longmans Green and Co., 1868. > > Also,—for a pair of sleeves, to change, 4 d. >In the 14th c.? Wow. Although this brings to mind separate sleeves, that's >not typical of what we see in artwork. I wonder if this was to *replace* >("change") worn-out sleeves on an existing garment? Fitted sleeves with >buttons might take a lot of wear and need replacing. Or people might want >to change a sleeve style to keep up with fashion. I have no idea. If you'd like to the full text of the Riley's translation it's at http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/histshoe/RileysMemorial/Fclxxxi.htm Marc _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 17:50:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DLoPRM025905 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:50:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DLlsd5003700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:47:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DLle4g028039; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:47:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from incoming.SIGENETICS.com ([209.172.110.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DLla4g027903 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:47:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sbuchler@silicongenetics.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:47:29 -0700 Message-ID: <0D3431E0FD777844A4ED9507E4D698D90CBCB9@incoming.sigenetics.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 520 Thread-Index: AcRpHkrZHRbB/EGtS662W4m9rqzLjQAA9taQ From: "Sunny Buchler" To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6DLla4g027903 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE question on hoods X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If I remember correctly, there is at least one extant hood discussed in the Museum of London's _Textiles and Clothing : Medieval Finds from Excavations in London, c.1150-c.1450_ by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, Kay Staniland. I don't remember any of the hoods being pieced... At least one had a gusset/gore/triangle-insert into the shoulder-cape area. But that's the only piecing I remember. Unfortunately the book is at home, and I'm at work so I can't check. I don't think the book gave any indication of the social-status of the wearer either, but it's been awhile since I read it... -sunny _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 18:01:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DM17RM025956 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:01:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DLxVd5005051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:59:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DLxO4g037279; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:59:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DLxH4g037172 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:59:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pandoraf@verizon.net) Received: from outgoing.verizon.net ([192.168.1.4]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040713215915.YFBZ1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:59:15 -0500 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.12 (webedge20-101-197-20030912) From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] question on hoods Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:59:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [192.168.1.4] at Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:59:15 -0500 Message-Id: <20040713215915.YFBZ1464.out001.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO some piecing is necessary to get the hood to fit of course (the gores in the shoulders), but I assume you're talking about piecing the liripipe? you might also want to check out: Crowfoot, Elisabeth; Frances Pritchard and Kay Staniland. Textiles and Clothing, c.1150-c.1450. (Medieval Finds from Excavations in London: 4) London: HMSO, 1992. This has a info on a couple extant hoods found, as you might surmise, in London. someone else asked about the URL to Marc's site: http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/bockhome.html (this is the Some Clothing of the Middle Ages section of his site that has *lots* of other interesting stuff) Crinoc Triall Barony of Aquaterra mka Pandora Fitzpatrick Everett, WA www.slighe.com Dance like nobody's watching; love like you've never been hurt; sing like nobody's listening; live like it's heaven on earth. ~Mark Twain _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 18:07:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DM7ZRM025991 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:07:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DM5Id5005659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:05:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DM5D4g042002; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:05:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav4.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DM5B4g041897 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:05:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:30:33 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.60 by bay1-dav4.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:02:34 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.60] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: first knight Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:02:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 21:30:33.0093 (UTC) FILETIME=[A0CDD350:01C46920] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I dunno I think that's the one I keep confusing with the one with the "we will rock you" song. Which one had Richard Gere?? Both were horrible and I recall taking the hammer to one tape and my men loving both movies. Thank god the husband left and the son is only 12 and trainable. eBay Period Patterns! http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gail & Scott Finke" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:46 PM Subject: [h-cost] Re: first knight > > > First Knight. > > > > I thought the women's costumes in First Knight were absolutely, indescribably > > godawful - they were incorrect as they could be, and also had absolutely no > > aesthetic value whatsoever. Braveheart's costumes for women were inaccurate, > > but at least were very beautiful and looked lovely on the cast. Julia Ormond > > looked like she would have been equally prepared for a Star Trek movie or > > something vaguely Monty Python. > > > > The men, on the other hand, had some fairly cool clothing. > > Isn't that the one where the men in "civilian" clothes looked like Klingons? > I couldn't make it through the film, myself. > > Gail Finke > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 18:12:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DMC2RM026071 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:12:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMBPd5006412 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:11:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMBN4g046675; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:11:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav24.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.81]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMBM4g046599 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:11:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:10:57 -0700 Received: from 66.130.163.130 by bay9-dav24.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:10:57 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.130.163.130] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:12:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 22:10:57.0189 (UTC) FILETIME=[45AD8550:01C46926] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > And when > was the last good historical movie set from 1370 through the Rennaissance > when men had most of the great clothes? Well, it might not be a great *historical* movie, but I really enjoyed looking at all the men in Dangerous Beauty... I really got the feeling that those rich guys came from all over Europe, and giving us a good variety of styles is one of the great achievements of the movie. Of course, don't look at the courtesan outfits :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 18:15:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DMFVRM026099 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:15:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMESd5006732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:14:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMES4g048913; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:14:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail1.plugit.com [66.210.223.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMCf4g047578 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:12:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penny@costumegallery.com) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AD59104F0112; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:08:25 -0500 Received: from MOM [69.241.150.7] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AD2A1100140; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:07:38 -0500 Message-ID: <004c01c46926$614322c0$0200a8c0@MOM> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "h-costume" Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:11:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by ElectroSHIELD (www.plugit.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Online Costume Classes Starting X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6DMFVRM026099 Status: RO The Costume Classroom, http://www.costumeclassroom.com has one online class that started today, "Propriety, Plain and Fancy - Victorian and Edwardian Fashions from Bustle to Gibson Girl." This class is taught by Marna Jean Davis. It is an excellent class that teaches you how to define the fashion periods by such details as the sleeves, bodice, etc. The price of this class includes a 3 month subscription to our online Library. Jennie Chancey's class, "Fact or Fantasy? A Look at Costumes in Recent Regency Film Adaptations" that was scheduled to open today has a delayed opening to July 19. Jennie moved recently and is awaiting her internet service to be connected. We still have openings for students in both classes if you are interested. Penny E. Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 18:22:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DMMqRM026126 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:22:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMK2d5007464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:20:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMJx4g053206; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:20:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav13.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMJv4g053109 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:19:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:14:33 -0700 Received: from 66.130.163.130 by bay9-dav13.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:14:32 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.130.163.130] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:19:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 22:14:33.0190 (UTC) FILETIME=[C66CA860:01C46926] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > There were several elements very obviously borrowed from other movies > > (Braveheart, Robin Hood Prince of Thieves, Gladiator) > > Well that's enough to keep me away. All those films are awful! Nah, they're fun, once you forget the fact that they're supposed to be historical :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 18:42:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DMg7RM026189 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:42:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMaBd5009507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:36:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMa84g065851; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:36:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav10.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.114]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMa54g065702 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:36:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:51:23 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.60 by bay1-dav10.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:29:01 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.60] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407131637.i6DGb94h076280@net.indra.com> <40F41850.3060904@verizon.net> Subject: Re: Re:Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:29:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 21:51:23.0091 (UTC) FILETIME=[89DC6230:01C46923] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That's what it was. There was Knight's Tale that had Chaucer running around nude all the time (honestly that movie had me so frustrated I cried and my stupid husband thought it was the best thing he'd ever seen) then there was the Richard Gere "thing" First Knight which so @%$#^^#$% stupid my hammer accidentally fell on it 15X. Never forgiven anyone for making either of those movies. eBay Period Patterns! http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- > >First Knight. > Do you mean "Star Trek: First Knight" or "A Knight's Tale"? Cos First > Knight had EVERYONE dressed in what looked, to me, for all the world > like some new Star Trek uniform. A knight's Tale, OTOH, had at least > decent costumes for most of the men (Except Jeff Chaucer, who belonged > more on a motorcycle than a horse IMO), while the women looked like they > were either from a 70's renfair (bellbottom jumpsuits?) or Mars (the > lady love interest, whatshername). > > Maura _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 18:47:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DMleRM026216 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:47:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMi9d5012814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:44:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMi64g073628; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:44:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav2.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.106]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMi34g073494 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:44:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:10:26 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.44 by bay1-dav2.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:42:13 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.44] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040713133440.31599.qmail@web53005.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:42:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 22:10:26.0812 (UTC) FILETIME=[33925BC0:01C46926] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I watched ABC the other night and they said the movie took the view that Arthur was Roman and that his knights were Sarmecens (sp??) some sort of Russian steppe soldiers that had been kidnapped as soldiers when very young. I would guess that's why the costumes are so higgdley piggldey. B~ eBay Period Patterns! http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aurelia Rufinia" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:34 AM Subject: [h-cost] RE: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) > Ummmm... well.... > > I haven't seen the movie yet, but have seen the > pictures of one of the dresses in question, and I see > where they were headed, but like when (as the Boston > Globe review said) "history gets hog-tied and tossed > in the back of Jerry Bruckheimer's jag," the costume > takes a random right at Albuquerque, and the dress is > pretty wrong. Closer than Gladiator, but that doesn't > take much. > > Aurelia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 18:50:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DMomRM026226 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:50:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMn3d5014647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:49:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMn04g078178; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:49:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav17.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.121]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DMkp4g076106 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:46:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:46:45 -0700 Received: from 66.130.163.130 by bay9-dav17.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:46:45 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.130.163.130] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713103724.023959f8@mail.katiesorchids.com> <1821.64.156.242.54.1089742714.squirrel@webmail.patriot.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:48:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jul 2004 22:46:45.0686 (UTC) FILETIME=[46482560:01C4692B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I'm curious when you say the somacher covers the stomach - is there > an era or fashion where it covers only the stomach and does not go up > to the bust? I don't think so, but you also have to keep in mind that they used the word "stomach" to talk about the bust, like we sometimes also see the word "throat" to talk about the same thing. "They" being somewhere during Elizabeth's reign, and probably others before and after. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 19:05:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DN5ARM026274 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:05:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DN2nd5020098 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:02:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DN2j4g091071; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:02:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DN2f4h090936 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:02:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6DN5v79016277 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:05:59 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040713155940.02459250@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:02:32 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: [h-cost] King Arthur In-Reply-To: References: <200407131637.i6DGb94h076280@net.indra.com> <40F41850.3060904@verizon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Knight's Tale (the one with the naked Chaucer) is one of My Lord Husband's favorite movies . He *LOVES* the music. Regarding First Knight (with Richard Gere doing simply stupid things), I screen captured the architecture but not the garb, which was universally bad (but not as bad as the women's clothes in Knight's Tale!!!) Katie At 01:29 PM 7/13/2004 -0400, you wrote: >That's what it was. There was Knight's Tale that had Chaucer running around >nude all the time (honestly that movie had me so frustrated I cried and my >stupid husband thought it was the best thing he'd ever seen) then there was >the Richard Gere "thing" First Knight which so @%$#^^#$% stupid my hammer >accidentally fell on it 15X. Never forgiven anyone for making either of >those movies. > > >eBay >Period Patterns! >http://snipurl.com/74k1 >----- Original Message ----- > > >First Knight. > > Do you mean "Star Trek: First Knight" or "A Knight's Tale"? Cos First > > Knight had EVERYONE dressed in what looked, to me, for all the world > > like some new Star Trek uniform. A knight's Tale, OTOH, had at least > > decent costumes for most of the men (Except Jeff Chaucer, who belonged > > more on a motorcycle than a horse IMO), while the women looked like they > > were either from a 70's renfair (bellbottom jumpsuits?) or Mars (the > > lady love interest, whatshername). > > > > Maura >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 19:26:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6DNQvRM026375 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:26:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DNQKd5023101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:26:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DNQI4g008138; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:26:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6DNQC4g008029 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:26:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.143.2dc5ec0f (4206) for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:26:03 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <143.2dc5ec0f.2e25c98b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:26:03 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/13/2004 6:12:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, audreybmorin2@hotmail.com writes: > Of course, don't look > at the courtesan outfits :-) > Damn that etching showing a courtesan's underpinnings! The men were right good weren't they? Much better than "Elizabeth". I hated the men's things in that. The women's stuff in both films are frustrating to me because they are actually lovely designs.....and each gown could easily been more accurate and essentially the same design. Did that make sense? Do you know what I mean? Remember "Queen Margot"? Talk about frustrating women's gowns! I remember them all being the same pattern just made up in different fantastic fabrics. All the sleeves being the same....in a period about sleeves! Argh! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 20:46:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E0krRM026664 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:46:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E0jod5028487 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:45:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E0jf4g056914; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:45:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f3.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E0jd4g056853 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:45:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:45:34 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:45:34 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: first knight Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:45:34 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 00:45:34.0367 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF4E8AF0:01C4693B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO We Will Rock You is in " A Knights Tale" with Heath Ledger and in 10th Kingdom (hehehe) Wilhelmina > >I dunno I think that's the one I keep confusing with the one with the "we >will rock you" song _________________________________________________________________ Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 20:52:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E0qQRM026682 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:52:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E0oed5028864 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:50:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E0ob4g059775; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:50:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f14.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E0oZ4g059713 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:50:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:50:30 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:50:29 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: Re:Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:50:29 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 00:50:30.0061 (UTC) FILETIME=[8F8DDDD0:01C4693C] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Bice" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: "Historical Costume" >Subject: Re: Re:Re: [h-cost] King Arthur >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:29:10 -0400 > >That's what it was. There was Knight's Tale that had Chaucer running around >nude all the time (honestly that movie had me so frustrated I cried and my >stupid husband thought it was the best thing he'd ever seen) then there was >the Richard Gere "thing" First Knight which so @%$#^^#$% stupid my hammer >accidentally fell on it 15X. Never forgiven anyone for making either of >those movies. > > >eBay >Period Patterns! >http://snipurl.com/74k1 >----- Original Message ----- > > >First Knight. > > Do you mean "Star Trek: First Knight" or "A Knight's Tale"? Cos First > > Knight had EVERYONE dressed in what looked, to me, for all the world > > like some new Star Trek uniform. A knight's Tale, OTOH, had at least > > decent costumes for most of the men (Except Jeff Chaucer, who belonged > > more on a motorcycle than a horse IMO), while the women looked like they > > were either from a 70's renfair (bellbottom jumpsuits?) or Mars (the > > lady love interest, whatshername). > > I am wrong about the rock song in Tenth Kingdom, well that my excuse to watch it again. the costuming in A Knights Tale was not ment to be accurate. And yes the were going for the rock look for Chauser and the The Prince. I gave up being serious about it after the rock song. Wilhelmina _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 21:07:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E17IRM026719 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:07:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E166d5000105 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:06:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E1634g068889; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:06:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6E1614g068831 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:06:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OtYq9InYonTTK79As4wVQy0= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J2F9X65P; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:05:06 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:04:06 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Message-ID: <20040713.180407.1732.2.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-7,9-67 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Cley@juno.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The first time my husband and I saw "Knight's Tale", we both laughed our socks off. Sort of a 'medieval meets the wierder aspects of the SCA' movie. Arlys On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:02:32 -0700 Katie Pleasance writes: > Knight's Tale (the one with the naked Chaucer) is one of My Lord > Husband's > favorite movies . He *LOVES* the music. > > Regarding First Knight (with Richard Gere doing simply stupid > things), I > screen captured the architecture but not the garb, which was > universally > bad (but not as bad as the women's clothes in Knight's Tale!!!) > > Katie > > At 01:29 PM 7/13/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >That's what it was. There was Knight's Tale that had Chaucer > running around > >nude all the time (honestly that movie had me so frustrated I cried > and my > >stupid husband thought it was the best thing he'd ever seen) then > there was > >the Richard Gere "thing" First Knight which so @%$#^^#$% stupid my > hammer > >accidentally fell on it 15X. Never forgiven anyone for making > either of > >those movies. > > > > > >eBay > >Period Patterns! > >http://snipurl.com/74k1 > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >First Knight. > > > Do you mean "Star Trek: First Knight" or "A Knight's Tale"? Cos > First > > > Knight had EVERYONE dressed in what looked, to me, for all the > world > > > like some new Star Trek uniform. A knight's Tale, OTOH, had at > least > > > decent costumes for most of the men (Except Jeff Chaucer, who > belonged > > > more on a motorcycle than a horse IMO), while the women looked > like they > > > were either from a 70's renfair (bellbottom jumpsuits?) or Mars > (the > > > lady love interest, whatshername). > > > > > > Maura > >_______________________________________________ > >h-costume mailing list > >h-costume@mail.indra.com > >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 21:15:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E1FsRM026744 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:15:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E1F4d5000835 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:15:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E1F34g074004; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:15:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f23.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.23]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E1En4g073791 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:14:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:14:43 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:14:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:14:43 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 01:14:43.0997 (UTC) FILETIME=[F22AE4D0:01C4693F] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > >The first time my husband and I saw "Knight's Tale", we both laughed our >socks off. Sort of a >'medieval meets the wierder aspects of the SCA' movie. > >Arlys > > > armour, raybans, soda can and the radio blairing classic rock. _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 21:40:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E1eGRM026840 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:40:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E1Eqd5000811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:14:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E1Ep4g073866; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:14:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net (invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.254]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E1El4g073819 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:14:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from talk2meg@midwest.net) Received: from sdn-ap-016ilchicp0450.dialsprint.net ([65.176.161.196] helo=office) by invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BkYMA-0007PE-30 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:14:47 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c4693f$e2361db0$c4a1b041@office> From: "talk2meg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:09:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4939.300 X-ELNK-Trace: f49e4b04a8da9eb37fd7ec19d19237ef8bb5361f5afbff600a586dee7c6a387ceab1492ccb9fe0b1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 65.176.161.196 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Flapper purse X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6E1eGRM026840 Status: RO Although the 1920's isn't my era of interest, there's a purse up for auction like one my mother treasured for years, probably because it held secret girl memories. Those of you having problems finding accessories will like this one too, I'm bet. The one at auction is ebay # 8117505846 . Meg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 22:04:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E24cRM026896 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:04:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E23wd5004210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:03:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E23s4g001833; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:03:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53002.mail.yahoo.com (web53002.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.192]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6E23o4g001737 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:03:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from aureliarufinia@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040714020344.63415.qmail@web53002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.218.220.234] by web53002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:03:44 PDT Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:03:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Aurelia Rufinia To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407140115.i6E1FF4i074129@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO No, I highly doubt that's it. Roman women's clothing is rather... shapless. And not really very revealing. In modern eyes, not sexy. It looks like they took the concept of the stola, mashed it with a doric chiton, removed a lot of fabric, then tossed on these SLEEVES that I've seen in the SCA (and have been assured are period). Aurelia --------------------- I watched ABC the other night and they said the movie took the view that Arthur was Roman and that his knights were Sarmecens (sp??) some sort of Russian steppe soldiers that had been kidnapped as soldiers when very young. I would guess that's why the costumes are so higgdley piggldey. ===== Baroness Aurelia Rufinia House Iron Maiden, Barony of Carolingia, East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat "27 lawyers in the room, anyone know "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc"? Josh?" "Post - after, after hoc, ergo - therefore, "After hoc, therefore" something else hoc." "Thank you. Next?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 22:13:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E2DmRM026920 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:13:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E2C1d5004606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:12:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E2C04g006203; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:12:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E2Bw4g006164 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:11:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.169] (pm5-169.eos.net [205.133.149.169]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E2BrEM025956 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:11:54 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:09:30 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407140115.i6E1FF4h074129@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: first knight vs. knight's tale X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I loved A Knight's Tale. I could not make it through First Knight. Neither had costumes that were remotely accurate. Both (costumes, anyway) were artistic attempts at referencing the middle ages. In my mind, A Knight's Tale did a great job of the medievalish costumes because it had a story to tell, and a medieval story to boot. I can't comment on First Knight's story, because I didn't see it all the way through. But whatever it was it didn't resonate with me. That's probably why the costume design didn't either. But I don't think it's worth getting upset about! I have no problem with people having fun with "historic" costumes, as long as they don't pretend to be accurate. In fact, I like seeing different interpretations. Although Star Trek uniforms as King Arthur costumes has me baffled. I have a lot more of a problem with wasting lots of film and talent on a stupid story and/or a bad script. Like the Star Wars movies -- except the first one, that is. They keep getting bigger, more gorgeous, and more expensive. But they're so stupid! Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 13 22:42:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E2g9RM027007 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:42:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E2fbd5006339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:41:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E2fX4g021940; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:41:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f29.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.79]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E2fU4g021875 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:41:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:41:25 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.51 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:41:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.51] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:41:25 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 02:41:25.0304 (UTC) FILETIME=[0E635B80:01C4694C] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE question on hoods X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Speaking not as a costumer, nor anything else other than someone who wears hoods, I will say that hoods that have that added gore slipped into the shoulder hang differently from hoods that are just two pieces. The added gores make the shoulder pieces into a cone shape, as opposed to the semi-cylinder of the other. In other words, I don't think that gores are placed in garments to save on material as much as they are set to make the garment look a particular way, or fit a different way (for example, the Moy sleaves would NOT fit without those small and large inset pieces. These allow a cylindrical tight sleeve to flare out to match the arm hole). Look at how they fit and what they do when you make them that way. With a hood, it means that the neck can be smaller, but you can have a wider shoulder. I assume this means that when you wear it, you get that weird ripple effect around the neck. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 00:03:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E43qRM027293 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:03:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E40ld5011717 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:00:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E40e4g066041; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:00:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav101.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E40c4g065979 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:00:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:00:33 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav101.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:00:32 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: <02ca01c468a4$542a2570$ee399b04@HELENPINTO> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Navigating REALonline Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:00:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:00:35 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 04:00:33.0278 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C66B1E0:01C46957] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6E43qRM027293 Status: RO I'm sorry to create confusion over the location of the sleeveless shift! I thought the page with "REALonline" was the start of the website, having totally forgotten that there had been another screen first. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 00:17:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E4HURM027518 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:17:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4Grd5012989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:16:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4Gq4g074719; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:16:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4Gm4g074646 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:16:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a233.in-tch.com [66.62.107.33]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6E4GmN15209 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:16:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F4B497.7010603@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:20:39 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Some medieval prices... References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Marc, you're an absolute doll! (on top of being a research god!) --sue Marc Carlson wrote: > If you'd like to the full text of the Riley's translation it's at > http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/histshoe/RileysMemorial/Fclxxxi.htm _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 00:24:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E4OgRM027541 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:24:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4Mvd5013341 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:22:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4Mu4g077933; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:22:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4Mr4g077875 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:22:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a233.in-tch.com [66.62.107.33]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6E4MuN17305 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:22:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F4B606.7000700@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:26:46 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I like them, but find them frustrating. Dunno why the "fits into the movie but doesn't fit historically" flavor to the courtesans outfits doesn't bother me the way, say, the pink velour outfit in Braveheart does...Well except for the stooopid pants outfits! I actually have more of a problem with the over-romanticizing of her relationship with Marco..... --sue, who wants most of those courtesan outfits, if she's ever of a size to wear them! (but only in a strictly costume context...say, at a Con or something) Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: >> And when >>was the last good historical movie set from 1370 through the Rennaissance >>when men had most of the great clothes? > > > Well, it might not be a great *historical* movie, but I really enjoyed > looking at all the men in Dangerous Beauty... I really got the feeling that > those rich guys came from all over Europe, and giving us a good variety of > styles is one of the great achievements of the movie. Of course, don't look > at the courtesan outfits :-) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 00:28:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E4SNRM027546 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:28:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4PXd5013447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:25:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4PW4g079388; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:25:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4PT4g079362 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:25:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a233.in-tch.com [66.62.107.33]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6E4PYN18194 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:25:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F4B6A5.4000401@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:29:25 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur References: <143.2dc5ec0f.2e25c98b@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <143.2dc5ec0f.2e25c98b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yeah! Exactly! --sue AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > The women's stuff in both films are frustrating to me because they are > actually lovely designs.....and each gown could easily been more accurate and > essentially the same design. > > Did that make sense? Do you know what I mean? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 00:42:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E4gDRM027584 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:42:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4eKd5014461 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:40:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4eI4g087439; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:40:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E4eD4g087391 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:40:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from 209-165-46-160.jps.net ([209.165.46.160] helo=[209.165.58.57]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkbYw-0003NJ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:40:11 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:39:26 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 3:53 PM -0500 7/13/04, Robin Netherton wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: > > For example, I cannot tell the difference between a stomacher and a >> fancy bodice in Elizabethan paintings. Some are referred to as >> stomachers and some are referred to as bodices and I cannot tell the >> difference. So my question in this case would be -- is there a >> difference between a stomacher and a fancy bodice in Elizabethan >> paintings and how do I tell them apart? > >Aha. Specifying "Elizabethan" will go a long way to helping answer that >question. > >I'll leave the specific answer to the Elizabethan experts here -- my >interest in Elizabethan rests solely around the hips -- but my impression >is that even the experts don't always agree on whether a particular part >of a costume is one item or another. Yup. (I'm not an Elizabethan expert, but I hang out with several of them :) Angels may fear to tread here, but I'll happily give it a try. It is indeed with paintings that the problem arises most, since we don't have an actual garment, but only some artist's depiction of what it looks like. As you'll know if you've ever been entertained by a clueless artist's depiction of a loom or a spinning wheel with parts floating in the air or not connected up properly, this _is_ a factor to keep in mind. Most of the Elizabethan-costume people I know (and any of them can jump in and correct me) use "bodice" to refer to an outer garment, usually closely fitted, that covers the top half of the female body. It may be a separate garment from the skirt, or it may be joined to it to form a "gown." There are many types of bodices: they can open in front or in back, have a high or a low neckline, little flaps attached at the bottom, and many other variations. These same people use the word "stomacher" to describe a panel, usually more or less triangular, that is marked off or set apart in some way, located on the center front area of a bodice. It may be outlined with trim, made of a different (sometimes contrasting) fabric, or both. It's not always richer or more trimmed than the gown, but sometimes. You can usually tell from the painting that it seems to have some sort of stiffening in it, though you'll also see paintings where it's obviously at least somewhat flexible. Strongly contrasting stomachers seem to be uncommon during most of the Elizabethan era, but they do come into fashion sometime after 1600 -- so paintings of them in the 1590s are unusual, but not totally impossible. If I remember correctly, however, the fashion for having several _different_ detachable stomachers that you can wear with the same gown also tends to be later than Elizabethan. (You _do_ fairly often see Elizabethan gowns that are clearly being worn with different detachable sleeves and /or with different underskirts, which show in the front.) From a painting, you can't usually tell for sure how a stomacher might be constructed, or whether or how it might be attached. You occasionally can see details that enable the experienced eye to make a good guess. The consensus seems to be that stomachers can either be an integral part of the gown, or separate detachable pieces. Ones that are part of the gown can either be a panel made separately and then attached, or just an overlapping part of the bodice fabric that's decorated to look like a separate panel. Stomachers can be sewn to the gown on one edge and fastened up the other side when you put the gown on. I expect it's also possible for a gown with a stomacher to actually have the _real_ opening in the back, though from a painting you can't tell, of course. (It's an old costumers' joke that one of the books we wish for is called "Hey, Lady -- Turn Around!" and shows the _backs_ of all those people in paintings with the details we can't see.) We have evidence of Elizabethan stomachers that are attached with hooks and eyes, or with hidden lacing, or with a line of good stout straight pins, sometimes with jeweled heads (think modern hatpins!). It's also quite possible that some of the stomachers where we can't see how they're attached are simply hand- basted with hidden stitches to the gown when they're put on, and the stitches taken out when undressing. My most recent Elizabethan gown is like this -- the stomacher, which is a separate panel of the dress fabric simply outlined with trim -- is permanently sewn onto the bodice on one side, and on the other, I need someone to baste me up the front every time I get into it. (This, and back-opening corsets, are two reasons Elizabethan ladies really need dressing-maids!) Hope this helps clarify things a bit -- -- _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 01:11:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E5B3RM027666 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:11:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E59Dd5016127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:09:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E59A4g002699; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:09:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.185]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6E5974g002669 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:09:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sarah@modehistorique.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?69.105.85.182?) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@69.105.85.182 with plain) by smtp806.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2004 05:09:06 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sarah lorraine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:09:06 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > We have evidence of Elizabethan stomachers that are attached with > hooks and eyes, or with hidden lacing, or with a line of good stout > straight pins, sometimes with jeweled heads (think modern hatpins!). > It's also quite possible that some of the stomachers where we can't > see how they're attached are simply hand- basted with hidden stitches > to the gown when they're put on, and the stitches taken out when > undressing. My most recent Elizabethan gown is like this -- the > stomacher, which is a separate panel of the dress fabric simply > outlined with trim -- is permanently sewn onto the bodice on one side, > and on the other, I need someone to baste me up the front every time I > get into it. (This, and back-opening corsets, are two reasons > Elizabethan ladies really need dressing-maids!) There is at least one Elizabethan era stomacher in existence (well, there might be more, but this is the only one I've seen with my own eyes) and it's in the V&A's textile collection. Unfortunately, I've looked high and low for a picture online and have come up empty-handed (my own photo happened to be erased from my digital camera). I believe there's also a photo in Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, but I'm too lazy to go look it up and scan it. Anyhoo... This particular stomacher is linen, triangular shaped and either blackworked or poly-chrome embroidered (can't for the life of me remember right now). It has three or four tabs on either edge, which are presumably for the purpose of attaching it to a bodice or stays (probably with pins). It looks for all the world like later 18th c. stomachers, except for the method of embellishment. There is also a reed boned "stomacher" that is mentioned in Patterns of Fashion, that also dates to the late 16th, early 17th c. Janet Arnold calls it a stomacher, but it always struck me as being a fragment of a pair of stays. It's undecorated, laces up the center front and is boned with bundles of reed. I'll have to look through QEWU to see if there's any additional references to stomachers in wardrobe accounts that might give a better idea of what they looked like. Sarah _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 01:57:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E5vNRM027828 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:57:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E5tOd5018375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:55:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E5tM4g026676; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:55:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E5tL4g026614 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:55:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20040714055514014003b473e>; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:55:14 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:54:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ah, my thought was "Renfest meets stadium rock, gives birth to Horatio Alger" But I have a terrible confession to make here: I LOVE the green suede outfit the woman farrier/armorer ends up in when they have been making money for a while. It was kind of a sleeveless jumper worn over a lovely blouse and appeared to be a split skirt, with a kind of stand-up spread collar like something Katherine Hepburn would have worn in the 40s. I have no inkling if it would have been historically correct -- there aren't a whole lot of paintings or tomb effigies of female armorers -- but I want one to wear NOW! Almost worth getting the DVD to squint at that dress. As for historic movies in general, they're sort of the equivalent of cheap white sparkling wines. If you think about Champagne, they're undrinkable. If you don't think about Champagne, sometimes they turn out to be an amusing beverage. As one who reads Middle English for fun, Chaucer running around naked suffering from gambling debts (when he was really a respectable bureaucrat and my patron saint for once writing how happy he was to have been given a raise as now he could afford candles, so he could write at night! Soul-mate...) had to be sternly crammed into the "amusing beverage" category for the film to be any fun. AND as for First Knight, oh, any Guinevere who would prefer Richard Gere to Sean Connery deserves what she gets, even if she is Julia Ormond. Was she Julia Ormond, by the way? Lauren >> >> The first time my husband and I saw "Knight's Tale", we both laughed our >> socks off. Sort of a >> 'medieval meets the wierder aspects of the SCA' movie. >> >> Arlys >> >> >> > > armour, raybans, soda can and the radio blairing classic rock. > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 01:58:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E5wrRM027832 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:58:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E5vld5018529 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:57:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E5vl4g027825; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:57:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E5vj4g027810 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:57:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-67-101-145-205.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([67.101.145.205] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bkcm0-0002SW-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:57:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:54:18 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] question on hoods Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6E5vj4g027810 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 3:52 PM -0400 7/13/04, M Stewart wrote: >Hi folks... > >I have a question concerning the cut of a hood >with shoulder cape just about 1340-1350. > >Now I have alerady looked through Marc's >excellent site -- and I already knew of the >Herjolfsnes hood, and the Bocksten finds... >and none of them answered my question. > > What is the opinion of this group.... > Would a hood and shoulder cape for the >nobility of the 1340-1350 period be pieced - as >a preference? I don't know that there would be a significantly different attitude towards piecing among the nobility (or those who make their garments) and the common folk. Certainly when looking at surviving body garments from the nobility, there doesn't seem to be any avoidance of piecing. Whether hoods were pieced by preference is likely to depend on what type of piecing you're talking about. The medieval hoods I've seen tend to have four major types of piecing -- dependent to some extent on the overall style of hood. 1) The addition of a triangular piece at the center front of the shoulder cape. This is typical of the Herjolfsness "type 1" hood, which has a relatively long shoulder cape. Another example is the Boksten hood. The cuts suggest that the face opening of the hood is set along a selvedge, so an extension is added to the selvedge edge of the cape portion to provide more fullness in that area. 2) The addition of two triangular pieces at the sides of the shoulder cape, set over the points of the shoulders. This is characteristic of the Herjolfsness "type 2" hood, as well as a number of other hoods. As a generalization, these hoods have a shorter shoulder cape than the first group, although there's some overlap. 3) Piecing of the liripipe. Pretty much any hood that has a liripipe extension from the peak of the hood will have it pieces either in part or in whole. There are even hoods with an extremely short added point -- barely more than a small triangle -- that is still formed by a separate piece of fabric. 4) Other piecing of "sticking out bits" that appears to be done to eke out the dimensions of the particular fabric being used. My database only has two 14th century items that could be classed as "hoods of the nobility". (Hmm, given the general state of things, we cam remove the "only".) One is from the tomb of Cangrande in Florence Italy. It's published in: Magagnato, Licisco. 1983. Le stoffe di Cangrande. Estate Teatrale Veronese, Fratelli Alinari Editrice, Florence. The fabric is badly deteriorated, but the hood does not appear to have any piecing (other than being made in two pieces: right and left). However it is also something of a "minimalist" hood -- a bit vestigial looking, and likely evolved into more of a hat than a functional hood. The other piece no longer exists, unfortunately -- it was lost in the 18th century as is known only from sketches made before that. This is a matching hood that once formed a set with the "eagle dalmatic" of the Holy Roman Emperors. The sketch shows it as relatively compact (no liripipe, very minimal shoulder cape) and shows no indications of piecing. On the other hand, drawings of similar provenance of still-extant items from the same collection aren't all that faithful in rendering the cuts, so I don't know how much to rely on this. One source for this item is: Schramm, Percy Ernst & Hermann Fillitz. 1978. Denkmale der deutschen Konige und Kaiser. Prestel Verlag, München. > I would love an extant garment - if anyone knows of one. My database contains 31 items currently classified as "hoods". The breakdown is as follows: 7th c., Scotland (Orkney), hood with shoulder cape that is extended with separate bands and fringe, very "primitive" cut, no piecing 7th c., Germany, Bernuthsfeld hood (I don't have a description to hand) 10-11th c., England (York, Lincoln), more of a coif than a hood, rectangular with slight shaping over the head - 4 items 10-11th c., Ireland (Dublin), similar to the preceding - 2 items 14th c., Italy, Cangrande hood - very compact, no apparent piecing 14th c., HRE, hood matching the "eagle dalmatic" (lost in the 18th c.) 14th c., Sweden, Varberg hood, similar to Herjolfsnes type 2, but with more rounded head piece 14th c. (late), Greenland, Herjolfsness type 1 (relatively long shoulder cape, center front gore) - 6 items 14th c. (late), Greenland, Herjolfsness type 2 (relatively short shoulder cape, shoulder gores) - 11 items (also one fragment, type not known) 14th c., England, (Museum of London book) partial hood, similar to Herjolfsness type 2 but with longer shoulder cape, buttoned front opening 15th c. -- lead on three possible hoods from France, Flanders, and Spain in the Lyon textile museum Other than the two items cited above, the best single-source publication for 14th c. hoods is the comparative material in: Nockert, Margareta. 1997. Bockstensmannen och hans Dräkt. Hallands Länsmuseer, Varberg. Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 02:09:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E69mRM029000 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:09:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E69Gd5019191 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:09:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E69D4g033944; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:09:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm29.prodigy.net (ylpvm29-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E69B4g033930 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:09:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-94-81.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.94.81]) by ylpvm29.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6E6970X009085 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:09:08 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040713224555.02d104b0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:46:22 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer In-Reply-To: <40F1314C.5050606@optonline.net> References: <36.5cbeec44.2e227d09@aol.com> <36.5cbeec44.2e227d09@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Anyway, I noticed that in the vermeer book, there were about 3 >paintings that had the the same bodice Probably stuff he had lying around the studio for the models to wear. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 04:22:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E8M7RM029841 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:22:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E8LAd5024663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:21:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E8Kv4g000636; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:20:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51304.mail.yahoo.com (web51304.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.170]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6E8Kr4g000567 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:20:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freyalynn@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040714082047.63762.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [195.92.168.178] by web51304.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:20:47 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:20:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Freyalynn Close-Hainsworth To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407131750.i6DHoM4i035465@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In my opinion, Aragorn should not have had facial hair at all. Tolkien specifically mentions that elves have none at all, and the men descended from elves (however distantly) either had none at all or very little. Which doesn't really address the non-growth of Aragorn's (or Boromir's for that matter) but I just thought I'd mention it. One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. Freyalyn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 04:34:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E8YTRM029902 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:34:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E8Wad5025092 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:32:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E8WZ4g006499; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:32:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E8WV4g006477 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:32:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scourney@nwlink.com) Received: from susan (ip157.usw235.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [207.202.235.157]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6ADD36E13D for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <04ca01c4697e$085cc5f0$0200a8c0@susan> From: "Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040714020344.63415.qmail@web53002.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:39:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't know. I have several chitons I wear and guys seem to find them sexy (at least from the comments I got last time I wore one). I think part is their simplicity and gracefulness and part is they sometimes expose areas that don't often get exposed in modern clothes (directly under the armpit) making it titillating by giving it a hint of showing something different while actually you are showing less then that wench over there with her tits on a platter. Also they, at least mine, don't always stay on the shoulders. So you have the Theiss theory working for you (the attractiveness of clothing on women is not really dependent on the amount of skin shown - rather, it depends on the degree to which the outfit appears to be on the verge of falling off.) In other words, if I want to be graceful and sexy for the least amount of effort, I wear a chiton. I've never seen sleeves on a chiton, mine are the doric type with the fold at the top and sewn up either both or just one side. Most are longer so I can do the extra fold at the waist. Susan in Seattle. > No, I highly doubt that's it. Roman women's clothing > is rather... shapless. And not really very > revealing. In modern eyes, not sexy. > > It looks like they took the concept of the stola, > mashed it with a doric chiton, removed a lot of > fabric, then tossed on these SLEEVES that I've seen in > the SCA (and have been assured are period). > > Aurelia > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 05:21:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6E9LgRM030046 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:21:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E9Ikd5028309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:18:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E9Ii4g030990; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:18:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6E9If4g030892 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:18:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:17:19 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF3A@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Is something being represented by this painting? Thread-Index: AcRlXtLKT6kATRkhRdyDWJPJhu8NKwEJA00Q content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Some of my family was in town the other week and we went to our local > mongolian grill. I had a red curry dish, and thought of you and Tom. > Ours isn't bad, but it's not London, and there's no lamb! It's stil my favourite place to meet up for a meal with costumers visiting London. I have an appointment to meet Sheila Beardslee Bosworth and her husband there while they're in town at the end of August. > Oh, and Teddy...I finally found the perfect! surcoat fabric about a year > ago, to go over the flaming pink fitted gown. Bright tangerine velvet > . And it is *quite* distinctly your fault! Yay! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 06:23:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EAN1RM030290 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:23:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EAMQd5000878 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:22:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EAMM4g061761; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:22:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.83]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6EAMK4g061691 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 04:22:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO 39jz301) (nicolaa@rogers.com@69.195.101.69 with login) by smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2004 10:22:14 -0000 Message-ID: <007001c4698c$6fd6c2e0$4565c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:22:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > > > There were several elements very obviously borrowed from other movies > > > (Braveheart, Robin Hood Prince of Thieves, Gladiator) > > > > Well that's enough to keep me away. All those films are awful! > > Nah, they're fun, once you forget the fact that they're supposed to be > historical :-) I have wildly different opinions of all three. Prince of Thieves suffered too much from Kevin Costner's wooden acting/delivery style, which sometimes works, but not in this. Braveheart is too sloppy. They needed a good film editor to tighten it up a bit--I realize it's supposed to be "epic", but to be quite honest, the story wasn't quite up to it. Gladiator I liked. It was redeemed by some excellent battle/combat sequences and decent directing. None of the three are great costume movies, although the men's stuff in Gladiator is OK. Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 07:42:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EBgJRM030607 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:42:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EBfad5005313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:41:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EBfV4g002408; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:41:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EBfT4g002381 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:41:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:40:08 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Diagonal/bias plaid [WAS: Spanish costume} To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF3F@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Diagonal/bias plaid [WAS: Spanish costume} Thread-Index: AcRl3xnOnfCE+rlaSQao8bM7ulcUcQDt/k6A content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > It is an interesting garment that periodically gets mentioned > on this list. Ususally, people assume that the fabric was > regular plaid cut on the bias. However, I have a picture in > one of my manuscript facsimilie books (the Sanitas stuff > comes to mind) of a weaver weaving that type of fabric so > that the pattern runs on the diagonal. Very cool find I > thought, except I can't tell you for sure since I am in > england and my books are in Minnesota... I'm sure you (or someone else) posted a link to that picture some years ago when the subject came up before, Danielle. I remember seeing it. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:00:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ECxxRM030884 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:59:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ECw9d5010891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:58:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ECw74g041754; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:58:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6ECw24g041637 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:58:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCn7dNh2VfhR8oOc/WWyjx1QlSTivlAzcNQ== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J2HJQ5KN; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 05:57:47 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:42:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Message-ID: <20040714.074258.-142850929.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-15,26-27,38-45,46-32767 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO To my eyes, many of the late period stomachers aren't applied on top of a low necked bodice, they are the front of a low necked bodice worn under a doublet style bodice which is then worn open in a formalized manner. Often the lining of the doublet will match the fabric of the low necked bodice. The practice of an applied, decorative stomacher over the front of a low necked bodice seems to have started with Winters and Savoy (who did a great job getting Elizabethan costuming going in the early days of RenFaires) and I believe it is based on an erroneous assumption. There were 'stomachers' of a sort worn with Tudor style low necked gowns, you can clearly see them fastened with pins along the side in several portraits. However these pieces are never decorated, they are simply fabric covers for the front lacing of the gown and were apparently never meant to register visually as a decorative element but to blend in with the fabric of the outfit. By the time that 'stomachers' seemingly reappear at the end of the Elizabethan era, the original Tudor style is long gone and since there doesn't seem to be any visual evidence for them in between, there's no reason to assume that 'stomacher' must mean the same thing. It could have evolved as a fashion term to now indicate a different garment, worn over a similar part of the body. I propose a sort of costuming scavenger hunt! There's lots of Elizabethans on the list, lets all go to our resources and try to find clear, visual evidence of separate, attached decorative pieces worn over the front of women's bodices between the years 1560 (tail end of Tudor styles) and the year 1590 when the decorative fronts that most people associate with the term 'stomacher' begin to appear. Maybe we can collectively track and research this phenomenon and contribute to Elizabethan costume research. Let's limit the examples to England, France, the Low Countries, and the Germanies as they seem to be drawing from the same clothing aesthetic- should we include Spain? It was a strong fashion influence during the period.... ......and go! Karen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:00:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ED0iRM030890 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:00:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ECrWd5010511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:53:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ECrT4g039280; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:53:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ECrP4g039242 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:53:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m76.in-tch.com [216.166.191.76]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6ECrUN05365 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:53:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F52DB1.2000508@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:57:21 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) References: <20040714020344.63415.qmail@web53002.mail.yahoo.com> <04ca01c4697e$085cc5f0$0200a8c0@susan> In-Reply-To: <04ca01c4697e$085cc5f0$0200a8c0@susan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I haven't seen the movie (probably won't, actually), and don't do Roman, but could this look be intended to copy what ISTR was an item of clothing from slightly later? And similar in appearance to the chiton? I'm really stretching here (no caffeine yet, and not enough time to go digging through the files this morning), but I remember seeing somewhere an article or book on medieval welsh clothing--mostly suppositional, I think, so I dunno how accurate, in which women were depicted wearing chiton-similar clothing. (Which could be a Guinivere tie-in, since she's often portrayed as being of Welsh decent, at least in the fiction books I've go ;-). There's also an Anglo-Saxon clothing item that is visually similar to a chiton, but was worn over a tunic with sleeves. And there's also a Finnish apron-dress that has a folded bit in front. So...given the -uhm- apparent looseness of the costuming accuracy in this new movie, could any of these possibly be reference points? --sue, musing before her tea's ready.... Susan wrote: > I don't know. I have several chitons I wear and guys seem to find them sexy > (at least from the comments I got last time I wore one). I think part is > their simplicity and gracefulness and part is they sometimes expose areas > that don't often get exposed in modern clothes (directly under the armpit) > making it titillating by giving it a hint of showing something different > while actually you are showing less then that wench over there with her tits > on a platter. Also they, at least mine, don't always stay on the shoulders. > So you have the Theiss theory working for you (the attractiveness of > clothing on women is not really dependent on the amount of skin shown - > rather, it depends on the degree to which the outfit appears to be on the > verge of falling off.) > > In other words, if I want to be graceful and sexy for the least amount of > effort, I wear a chiton. > > I've never seen sleeves on a chiton, mine are the doric type with the fold > at the top and sewn up either both or just one side. Most are longer so I > can do the extra fold at the waist. > > Susan in Seattle. > > >>No, I highly doubt that's it. Roman women's clothing >>is rather... shapless. And not really very >>revealing. In modern eyes, not sexy. >> >>It looks like they took the concept of the stola, >>mashed it with a doric chiton, removed a lot of >>fabric, then tossed on these SLEEVES that I've seen in >>the SCA (and have been assured are period). >> >>Aurelia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:09:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ED9kRM030907 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:09:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ED7udJ012818 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:08:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ED2l4g045705; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:02:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ED114g043624 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:01:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6ED0xHT010293 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040714083218.00ba0ec8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:01:11 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] question on hoods - Rephrased X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi folks... Let me try this again... I have realized that I did a very poor job in wording my last attempt. oh, I did look at the MoL: Textiles and Clothing. Thanks for the reminder on that source. Now if they would just put a bloomin' index in it.... ; > But, I still have a question concerning the cut of a hood with shoulder cape just about 1340-1350. What I am trying to discover is whether our modern cut of - one hood piece that goes over the head with a seam in back JOINED at the neck TO one shoulder cape piece cut as a circle - would also have existed in the 1340 - 1350 time period for a person of the nobility. I would love an extant garment showing this cut- if anyone knows of one. The question arises from looking at the inventories in Archaeologia and reading through Newton's "Fashion in the Age of the B.Prince". In these resources are mentioned both hoods and mantellatum... and at an early point in the book Newton asserts that these were sometimes joined together. So - how? and if so, then what word was used to describe this critter - was it now a hood, was it a mantellatum, or was it something entirely new. Other factors that may support this cut among noble circles (or even a large non-joined / non-pieced variety) are the move to conspicuous consumption, the emphasis on pattern at the time, and the availability of larger pieces of cloth from professional workshops. Conversely - the argument can still be made for frugality. The examples depicted by Nockert and Norlund are all garments from non-noblitity. These examples cover the Herjolfsnes hood, and the Bocksten finds... and they follow construction principles better suited to practicality and frugality. Namely these hoods have the following characteristics: * they are close to the shoulders - only a few of them truly extend over the shoulders and down the arms as found in the illuminations of the noble class. * the head piece and shoulder piece are cut as a single vertical unit with gussets added at the base of the shoulder area to provide fullness. What is the opinion of this group.... Would a hood and shoulder cape for the nobility of the 1340-1350 period be built along the practical lines demonstrated by Nockert and Norlund... Or is there another approach out there, one that could have been indulged in by the nobility in order to preserve an uninterrupted line in the pattern of the fabric? Factors to think about... the Herjolfsnes hoods were probably woven on an upright loom - so there may be a definate width issue. the nobility had access to foreign and much higher quality of cloths. But were they necessarily wider? Frugality is a virtue of the poor. At this time in noble circles the idea of "conspicuous consumption" was gaining ground. So would it be perceived as "poor practice" to piece a small garment - such as a hood? Yes, I know of several larger garments that are pieced - usually in the skirt. NOT prominently on the head and shoulders. I would love someone to discuss/argue/compare opinions with on this one. Thanks, Mari / Bridgette _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:11:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EDBTRM030913 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:11:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ED8gd5012921 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:08:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ED8e4g051884; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:08:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ED8c4g051854 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:08:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6ED8aHT015881 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040714090312.00ba0120@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:08:41 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] question on hoods In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank YOU - Heather.... Great reply... I am in awe of your database. Mari >I don't know that there would be a significantly different attitude >towards piecing among the nobility (or those who make their garments) and >the common folk. Certainly when looking at surviving body garments from >the nobility, there doesn't seem to be any avoidance of piecing. > BINGO... a solid lead THANKS! You Rock. >My database only has two 14th century items that could be classed as >"hoods of the nobility". (Hmm, given the general state of things, we cam >remove the "only".) One is from the tomb of Cangrande in Florence >Italy. It's published in: > >Magagnato, Licisco. 1983. Le stoffe di Cangrande. Estate Teatrale >Veronese, Fratelli Alinari Editrice, Florence. > >The fabric is badly deteriorated, but the hood does not appear to have any >piecing (other than being made in two pieces: right and left). However it >is also something of a "minimalist" hood -- a bit vestigial looking, and >likely evolved into more of a hat than a functional hood. > >Heather _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:15:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EDFfRM030925 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:15:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDEad5013470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:14:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDEZ4g055419; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:14:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from eagle.uvm.edu (eagle.uvm.edu [132.198.101.203]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDEU4h055369 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:14:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hope.greenberg@uvm.edu) Received: from uvm.edu (ip092065.uvm.edu [132.198.92.65]) by eagle.uvm.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDERXc026193 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:14:28 -0400 Message-ID: <40F531BF.7050708@uvm.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:14:39 -0400 From: Hope Greenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <000001c4693f$e2361db0$c4a1b041@office> In-Reply-To: <000001c4693f$e2361db0$c4a1b041@office> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] middle east photo resource X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It's not a place or time period that comes up much here, but just in case, here's a recent announcement. - Hope --------- The Library of Congress's Prints and Photographs Division is pleased to announce that between April and June 2004, it added more than 10,000 catalog records and images to the Library's Prints and Photographs Online Catalog (PPOC) . Among the newly added materials is the first release of the G. Eric and Edith Matson Negatives, a rich source of historical images of the Middle East--notably Palestine, present day Israel, and the West Bank--from 1898 to 1946. The American Colony Photo Department and its successor firm, the Matson Photo Service, produced the photographs, initially for the tourist trade, eventually distributing them to a variety of publishing enterprises, as well. The collection includes scenes of daily life, architecture, archaeological sites, and historic events. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:29:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EDTfRM030965 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:29:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDT0d5014418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:29:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDSw4g064003; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:28:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDSt4h063956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:28:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6EDQktY029374 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:26:46 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F53516.9020405@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:28:54 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] question on hoods - Rephrased References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040714083218.00ba0ec8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040714083218.00ba0ec8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO M Stewart wrote: > What I am trying to discover is whether our modern cut of - one hood > piece that goes over the head with a seam in back JOINED at the neck > TO one shoulder cape piece cut as a circle - would also have existed > in the 1340 - 1350 time period for a person of the nobility. I don't think I've ever seen someone make a hood, modernly, that is the head/hood part joined to a circle -- they've all been cut in one flow from the top of the head to the bottom of the "skirts" whether they were long or short skirts. There's a cutting diagram by Heather on my hood page, if it helps with visualization: http://www.virtue.to/articles/hoodlum.html That said, what I've seen in pictures seems to indicate that the conspicuous consumption was achieved in ornamentation, ludicrous liripipes, and lavish dagging. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent I read all these British boys' adventure yarns without ever noticing that they weren't addressed to me. -- Lois McMaster Bujold _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:32:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EDWHRM030975 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:32:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDVed5014591 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:31:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDVe4g065811; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:31:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (smtp1.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6EDTi4g064492 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:29:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-19682); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:27:19 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp1.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:27:19 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040714062039.01ed8a60@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:29:34 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] question on hoods - Rephrased In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040714083218.00ba0ec8@postoffice8.mail.cornell .edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 09:01 AM 7/14/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Hi folks... > >Let me try this again... I have realized that I did a very poor job in >wording my last attempt. >oh, I did look at the MoL: Textiles and Clothing. Thanks for the >reminder on that source. Now if they would just put a bloomin' index in >it.... ; > > >But, I still have a question concerning the cut of a hood with shoulder >cape just about 1340-1350. > >What I am trying to discover is whether our modern cut of - one hood piece >that goes over the head with a seam in back JOINED at the neck TO one >shoulder cape piece cut as a circle - would also have existed in the 1340 >- 1350 time period for a person of the nobility. >[snip] > Factors to think about... > the Herjolfsnes hoods were probably woven on an upright loom - so > there may be a definate width issue. > the nobility had access to foreign and much higher quality of > cloths. But were they necessarily wider? > Frugality is a virtue of the poor. At this time in noble circles > the idea of "conspicuous consumption" was gaining ground. So would it > be perceived as "poor practice" to piece a small garment - such as a > hood? Yes, I know of several larger garments that are pieced - > usually in the skirt. NOT prominently on the head and shoulders. > > I would love someone to discuss/argue/compare opinions with on > this one. > > Thanks, > Mari / Bridgette Actually, Mari, the width that can be woven on an upright loom (whether warp-weighted or two-beam) is not the problem. The limitation is more in the length. And given that the fabric was more expensive than the labor, I would not expect that even nobles would countenance waste of materials. Conspicuous consumption can be shown by the use very full skirts, large sleeves, jewels, very costly fabric, etc., without being "wasteful". _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:47:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EDlYRM031069 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:47:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDjdd5015497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:45:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDja4g074175; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:45:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f13.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDjV4g074078 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:45:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:45:26 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:45:26 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Knight's Tale was: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:45:26 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 13:45:26.0783 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1C298F0:01C469A8] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >The first time my husband and I saw "Knight's Tale", we both laughed our >socks off. Sort of a >'medieval meets the wierder aspects of the SCA' movie. I saw with with a bunch of SCA friends. We had such a good time! And someone tells me Wolgemut played a "medievalized" version of "We will rock you" on the battlefield that Pennsic (There's also a version of it on their cd "Danza"). _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the MSN Premium and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:50:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EDonRM031077 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:50:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDn3d5015908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:49:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDn34g076743; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:49:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDmp4g076604 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:48:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.28] (p12.3c01.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.28]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6EDlCx03297 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:47:12 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) In-Reply-To: <40F531BF.7050708@uvm.edu> References: <000001c4693f$e2361db0$c4a1b041@office> <40F531BF.7050708@uvm.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] middle east photo resource Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:51:43 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks. I'll forward your message to the middle eastern dance list I'm on. Although I haven't had time yet to check it out, it may be of interest to them. Sylrog On Jul 14, 2004, at 7:14 AM, Hope Greenberg wrote: > It's not a place or time period that comes up much here, but just in > case, here's a recent announcement. > > - Hope > > --------- > The Library of Congress's Prints and Photographs Division is pleased > to announce that between April and June 2004, it added more than 10,000 > catalog records and images to the Library's Prints and Photographs > Online Catalog (PPOC) . > > Among the newly added materials is the first release of the G. Eric and > Edith Matson Negatives, a rich source of historical images of the > Middle > East--notably Palestine, present day Israel, and the West Bank--from > 1898 to 1946. The American Colony Photo Department and its successor > firm, the Matson Photo Service, produced the photographs, initially for > the tourist trade, eventually distributing them to a variety of > publishing enterprises, as well. The collection includes scenes of > daily > life, architecture, archaeological sites, and historic events. > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:50:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EDooRM031080 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:50:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDmud5015883 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:48:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDmt4g076634; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:48:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f10.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDmg4g076471 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:48:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:48:35 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:48:35 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: first knight vs. knight's tale Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:48:35 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 13:48:35.0238 (UTC) FILETIME=[42168C60:01C469A9] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Like the Star Wars movies -- except >the first one, that is. They keep getting bigger, more gorgeous, and more >expensive. But they're so stupid! But GOSH they have such beautiful costumes! When I saw those, I was tempted for the first time in my life to venture into fantasy costumes... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 09:57:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EDvRRM031148 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:57:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDrmd5016301 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:53:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EDrk4g079498; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:53:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53009.mail.yahoo.com (web53009.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.199]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6EDnj4g077109 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:49:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from aureliarufinia@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040714134939.2393.qmail@web53009.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [18.152.6.209] by web53009.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:49:39 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:49:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Aurelia Rufinia To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407141334.i6EDY64i067186@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, but pretend you're a studio executive. > > In other words, if I want to be graceful and sexy > for the least amount of > effort, I wear a chiton. > > I've never seen sleeves on a chiton, mine are the > doric type with the fold > at the top and sewn up either both or just one side. > Most are longer so I > can do the extra fold at the waist. > That's what I'm saying. The kind of chiton you're describing doesn't have alseeves. There's another type that *sort of* has arm coverings. But not "sleeves" is in they're cut to cover the arms. The stupid dress in the movie has these hanging sleeves that I've seen in 14th or 15th century-ish garb, and isn't anything I have ever seen in my Roman garb research. Aurelia ===== Baroness Aurelia Rufinia House Iron Maiden, Barony of Carolingia, East Kingdom, Northshield Ex-Pat "27 lawyers in the room, anyone know "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc"? Josh?" "Post - after, after hoc, ergo - therefore, "After hoc, therefore" something else hoc." "Thank you. Next?" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 10:15:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EEFkRM031263 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:15:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEDSd5018062 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:13:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEDR4g092015; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:13:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f47.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.47]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEDP4g091935 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:13:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 07:13:20 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:13:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:13:20 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 14:13:20.0720 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7811D00:01C469AC] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >I like them, but find them frustrating. Dunno why the "fits into the movie >but doesn't fit historically" flavor to the courtesans outfits doesn't >bother me the way, say, the pink velour outfit in Braveheart does... I think they're closer in feel to what we imagine a courtesan might have won. Plus, they're not based on a stereotyped outfit that we feel comes right out of the 70s... And they're beautiful. >Well except for the stooopid pants outfits! Looked practical, though, once the weird skirt thing was gone :-) But I agree with you... >I actually have more of a problem with the over-romanticizing of her >relationship with Marco..... The solution to that: I sew while I watch it, so I can get busy with something else when I don't feel like watching... >Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: > >>Well, it might not be a great *historical* movie, but I really enjoyed >>looking at all the men in Dangerous Beauty... I really got the feeling >>that >>those rich guys came from all over Europe, and giving us a good variety of >>styles is one of the great achievements of the movie. Of course, don't >>look >>at the courtesan outfits :-) _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium with Virus Guard and Firewall* from McAfee® Security : 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 10:52:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EEq6RM031620 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:52:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEosd5020961 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:50:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEom4g018621; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:50:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEoi4g018494 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:50:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.15f.31ef8628 (3890) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:50:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <15f.31ef8628.2e26a237@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:50:31 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/13/04 3:05:27 PM Central Daylight Time, sarah@modehistorique.com writes: Just because a movie wins an Oscar, doesn't mean it's any good. ;) See, I guess the point I was getting at is this: Just because one person or some people don't like a movie, doesn't mean that it's awful or not any good. There have been numerous movies that I have seriously hated or even walked out on, that have been critical or box office successes; but I would not say that the movie was "awful," only that I personally did not care for it. IMO, it denigrates the opinions of others who *do* like a movie, to just make a flat-out statement that it sucks. Everyone likes different things and is entitled to their own likes and dislikes, and me absolutely personally hating the movie "Unforgiven" does not make it a bad movie, it just makes it a movie that didn't work for me. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 10:57:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EEvFRM031681 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:57:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEuHd5021424 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:56:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEuE4g022846; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:56:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEuC4g022759 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:56:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1df.25457e6a (3890) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:55:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1df.25457e6a.2e26a37f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:55:59 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/13/04 5:20:36 PM Central Daylight Time, audreybmorin2@hotmail.com writes: Nah, they're fun, once you forget the fact that they're supposed to be historical :-) THANK YOU! LOL that's how I feel about them. I hope I never get to where period authenticity is so prevalent in my considerations, that I can't enjoy things that are simply entertainment, as such. I also loved "A Knight's Tale" (that's the one with Heath Ledger where the women are wearing a weird mix between Star Wars and 60's flower child, and they play all the modern music). I knew people from my local faire who were almost violent about how much they hated it, and that always baffled me. It's farcical, it's not intended to be historical or taken seriously, more along the lines of Monty Python than the History Channel. And many of these same people love "Holy Grail." Weird. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 10:59:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EExiRM031687 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:59:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEx2d5021634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:59:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEx04g024867; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:59:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEul4g023070 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:56:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fe2.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.226]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 18A785EE02D for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:56:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <007401c469b2$cbf51bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:56:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] stomachers X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And there are patterns of stomachers excisting.Vichellio made a book with lace patterns, and some of those are made for stomachers. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 10:59:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EExjRM031690 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:59:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EExCd5021670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:59:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EExA4g025027; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:59:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EEwS4g024388 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:58:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fe2.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.226]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EE6747FE85 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:58:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <008001c469b3$0ff678d0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <36.5cbeec44.2e227d09@aol.com> <36.5cbeec44.2e227d09@aol.com> <4.1.20040713224555.02d104b0@mail.frys.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:58:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Also it could be different bodices. You must remember that this fashion was almost like uniformal, this is to say, that nearly all bodices kept the same cut and decoration Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:46 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer > > Anyway, I noticed that in the vermeer book, there were about 3 > >paintings that had the the same bodice > > Probably stuff he had lying around the studio for the models to wear. > > CarolynKayta Barrows > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > www.FunStuft.com > > //// \\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ))) > ((( <> )))) > ) (((((( > /----\ /---\)) > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 11:07:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EF7TRM031760 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:07:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EF6fd5022601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:06:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EF6e4g031258; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:06:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.181]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6EF5Q4g030288 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:05:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sarah@modehistorique.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?69.105.196.152?) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@69.105.196.152 with plain) by smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2004 15:05:25 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <20040714.074258.-142850929.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> References: <20040714.074258.-142850929.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <3B9F7D99-D5A7-11D8-83E1-000D9353A386@modehistorique.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sarah lorraine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:05:24 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > To my eyes, many of the late period stomachers aren't applied on top > of a > low necked bodice, they are the front of a low necked bodice worn > under a > doublet style bodice which is then worn open in a formalized manner. > Often the lining of the doublet will match the fabric of the low > necked > bodice. That's possible in the middle period of the 16th c. but towards the 1580's, the separate stomacher is definitely a feature in fashion. The extant piece at the V&A is certainly an indication of this. > The practice of an applied, decorative stomacher over the front > of a low necked bodice seems to have started with Winters and Savoy > (who > did a great job getting Elizabethan costuming going in the early days > of > RenFaires) and I believe it is based on an erroneous assumption. Actually, Winter & Savoy advocated a "false stomacher" look. All of their square-necked bodices are simply outlined with trim in a stomacher-shape, which is what really has no basis in historical practice. > I propose a sort of costuming scavenger hunt! There's lots of > Elizabethans on the list, lets all go to our resources and try to find > clear, visual evidence of separate, attached decorative pieces worn > over > the front of women's bodices between the years 1560 (tail end of Tudor > styles) and the year 1590 when the decorative fronts that most people > associate with the term 'stomacher' begin to appear. Anyone in London willing to go the V&A's textile room and hunt down that embroidered stomacher for me? > Maybe we can > collectively track and research this phenomenon and contribute to > Elizabethan costume research. Let's limit the examples to England, > France, the Low Countries, and the Germanies as they seem to be drawing > from the same clothing aesthetic- should we include Spain? It was a > strong fashion influence during the period.... Ah, with the Germans you run into another complication... They used "plastrons" in their outfits round about the middle of the 16th c. I'd say limit it strictly to England and France, since they traded most heavily with one another fashion-wise. What pops up in England usually pops up in France and visa versa. Spain kind of just did it's own thing and England and France took what they liked from the Spaniards and ran with it. One thing's for sure: Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd is you friend... ;) Sarah _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 11:08:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EF8mRM031786 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:08:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EF6Ud5022569 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:06:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EF6T4g031113; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:06:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m20.mx.aol.com (imo-m20.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EF2g4g027993 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:02:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1ed.25409f14 (3890) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:02:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1ed.25409f14.2e26a506@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:02:30 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: first knight vs. knight's tale To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/13/04 9:12:29 PM Central Daylight Time, gailscott@eos.net writes: I can't comment on First Knight's story, because I didn't see it all the way through. But whatever it was it didn't resonate with me. I think the thing that bothered me most about First Knight was the absolute lack of interest I felt in Julia Ormond's Guenevere. She came across to me as flat, emotionless, arrogant, joyless, humorless, witless and irritating. It was impossible for me to ever figure out why anyone, much less Richard Gere and Sean Connery (both of whom ( adore), would risk squat for a moment of her time. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 11:35:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EFZWRM032250 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:35:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFYmd5025311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:34:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFYi4g053686; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:34:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6EFYe4g053530 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:34:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OsXA0mT/ljHUFf5Jpdb5wmE= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J2HTNLYN; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:33:41 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:11:43 -0700 Subject: Re: Knight's Tale was: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Message-ID: <20040714.083244.1048.7.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-8 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Cley@juno.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > And someone tells me Wolgemut played a "medievalized" version of "We > will > rock you" on the battlefield that Pennsic (There's also a version of > it on > their cd "Danza"). Then there's the An Tir Crown event some years ago where a local recorder consort welcomed the Crown with the theme from "Black Adder".... Arlys ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 11:39:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EFdNRM032272 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:39:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFcgd5025791 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:38:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFce4g056758; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:38:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFcV4g056652 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:38:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bklq1-00021c-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:38:29 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:38:44 -0700 Message-ID: <003401c469b8$a7251220$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? Another constrasting stomacher... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6EFdNRM032272 Status: RO http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=100 Are the little orange tips on her sleeve or are they part of the gown behind her? Or is that some sort of cape/shield arrangement which is not part of the gown itself? Are the little black tips around her waist tabs (which would be a very distorted perspective) or part of the above. I have seen these little wingy things on one of QEW portraits too..hmmmm.. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 11:45:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EFjpRM032314 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:45:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFiud5026326 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:44:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFir4g061454; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:44:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFio4g061410 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:44:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bklw9-0003Oj-00; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:44:49 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:45:07 -0700 Message-ID: <003901c469b9$8a147800$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003401c469b8$a7251220$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] More wingy thingys Was: What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=51 Hmmmm...now these are clearly part of the hanging sleeve _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 12:00:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EG0FRM032356 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:00:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFvMd5027713 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:57:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFvF4g071373; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:57:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f50.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EFvB4g071247 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:57:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:57:06 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:57:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:57:06 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 15:57:06.0492 (UTC) FILETIME=[365A87C0:01C469BB] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Of course, don't look > > at the courtesan outfits :-) > >Damn that etching showing a courtesan's underpinnings! Ehehe :-) >The men were right good weren't they? Much better than "Elizabeth". I hated >the men's things in that. Oh yes they were very nice eye candy. It decided me to make my own bf an Elizabethan. But it wasn't just that they were beautiful. It's also that there were so many! And variety (look at the hats to see variety). >The women's stuff in both films are frustrating to me because they are >actually lovely designs.....and each gown could easily been more accurate >and >essentially the same design. > >Did that make sense? Do you know what I mean? Oh yes, you make perfect sense. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN Premium. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 12:07:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EG7XRM032383 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:07:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EG52d5028514 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:05:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EG4w4g077470; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:04:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41504.mail.yahoo.com (web41504.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.87]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6EG4t4g077358 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:04:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celtic_dragonrider@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040714160449.62287.qmail@web41504.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.82.52.78] by web41504.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:04:49 EDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:04:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Janet Renzetti Subject: Re: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20040714082047.63762.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I agree with that statement, however, he is supposed ot be rugged and sexy. WHen it comes to movies such as these facial hair to that point he had, until he was shown as a king in full beard, seems about right for people's imagination. Strider, rather than Aragon, was one not to be trusted therefore unshaven. Aragon was without facial hair when in Elven cities, especially Elrond's home. BUt when in the wilds he let it grow. Perhaps he had VERY dominant human genes. Even TOlkien described him as being rough and rugged when the Hobbits met up with him, but that he was almost transformed in Rivendale. I am not sure why the other humans were shaved as much, but some societies have certain views on facial hair for status and maybe that is why Boromir and Faramir were shaved. Dwarves pride themselves on their beard and also knw that elves do not aprreciate facial hair and therefore would want to flaunt the fact that they have forests growing on their faces. Of course if y! ou sharpen your knives are aware of the angle, you can shave with them. Look at the cowboys on the road without their razors. You see them shavening their knives and applying them to their faces. Me personally I consider myself an elf or at least one in a past life. My daughter even was born with points (though she is in no way FAS), so I am certain we have elven blood in us. Janet AKA Meiralyn Shea (which mean lighted {Meira} pool beneath a waterfall {lyn} [in a] fairy palace {Shea}) Freyalynn Close-Hainsworth wrote: In my opinion, Aragorn should not have had facial hair at all. Tolkien specifically mentions that elves have none at all, and the men descended from elves (however distantly) either had none at all or very little. Which doesn't really address the non-growth of Aragorn's (or Boromir's for that matter) but I just thought I'd mention it. One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. Freyalyn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 12:16:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EGGMRM032432 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:16:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EGEOd5029559 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:14:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EGEK4g085199; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:14:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m19.mx.aol.com (imo-m19.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EGEI4g085110 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:14:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from FyneHats2@aol.com) Received: from FyneHats2@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.198.2bb7ee72 (3699) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:14:05 -0400 (EDT) From: FyneHats2@aol.com Message-ID: <198.2bb7ee72.2e26b5cd@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:14:05 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Knight's Tale costuming X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO From: Gail & Scott Finke Subject: [h-cost] Re: first knight vs. knight's tale I loved A Knight's Tale. I could not make it through First Knight. Neither had costumes that were remotely accurate. Both (costumes, anyway) were artistic attempts at referencing the middle ages. In my mind, A Knight's Tale did a great job of the medievalish costumes because it had a story to tell, and a medieval story to boot. I can't comment on First Knight's story, because I didn't see it all the way through If you are interested in a commercial film that did a fairly good job with costuming the Middle Ages, rent "Black Knight" with Martin Lawrence. He plays a worker in one of these Medieval themed castles (similar to Medieval Times) and falls into the moat trying to grab a locket he sees there and wakes up in real Medieval times! I am a hatmaker and I was fascinated at the variety of headgear they had for peasants and the nobility. It is a noble effort and although I cannot vouch for 100% authenticity in costuming, it looked very good to me. So with all the complaints about movie costuming, I thought I'd add my 2 cents. P.S. Shrek and Shrek 2 are pretty good on the costuming side too. :) Donna Scarfe Fyne Hats By Felicity Period Headgear for Past Ages www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 12:18:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EGIuRM032446 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:18:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EGIGd5029980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:18:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EGIF4g088247; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:18:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from secure4.netll.com (secure4.netll.com [208.38.152.40]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EGI54h088085 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:18:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lithiate@secure4.netll.com) Received: from lithiate by secure4.netll.com with local (Exim 4.34) id 1BkmSO-0002JN-B1 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:18:08 -0400 From: "Sarah Lorraine" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? Another constrasting stomacher... X-Mailer: NeoMail 1.26 X-IPAddress: 156.41.170.32 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:18:08 -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - secure4.netll.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32560 32560] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - secure4.netll.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=100 > Are the little orange tips on her sleeve or are they part of the gown behind > her? Or is that some sort of cape/shield arrangement which is not part of > the gown itself? Are the little black tips around her waist tabs (which > would be a very distorted perspective) or part of the above. Those are hanging sleeves that are purely decorative. I'm not sure what you mean by "little black tips around her waist tabs", though. The only thing I see is the negative space created by her torso and the dagging of the hanging sleeves. Sarah _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 12:33:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EGXvRM032575 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:33:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EGWCd5001786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:32:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EGW54g099180; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:32:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EGW14g099124 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:32:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bkmfo-0006Mw-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:32:00 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? Anotherconstrasting stomacher... Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:32:18 -0700 Message-ID: <005301c469c0$21780e90$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003401c469b8$a7251220$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My friend has enlightened me...they are part of a hanging sleeve which has the little wingy things on both edges. >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Saragrace T. Knauf >Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 8:39 AM >To: h-costume@net.indra.com >Subject: [h-cost] What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? Anotherconstrasting >stomacher... > >http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=100 > > > >Are the little orange tips on her sleeve or are they part of the gown behind >her? Or is that some sort of cape/shield arrangement which is not part of >the gown itself? Are the little black tips around her waist tabs (which >would be a very distorted perspective) or part of the above. > > > >I have seen these little wingy things on one of QEW portraits too..hmmmm.. > > > >Sg > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 13:30:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EHUqRM000336 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:30:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EHSwd5008142 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:28:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EHSr4g046661; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:28:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f16.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.66]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EHSp4g046562 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:28:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:28:45 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:28:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:28:44 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 17:28:45.0114 (UTC) FILETIME=[03C9A9A0:01C469C8] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Janet Renzetti >...BUt when in the wilds he let it grow. Perhaps he had VERY dominant >human genes.. If we assume that not all Humans were Numenorean, and that Isildure lived what, 3,000 years before Aragorn. That's like a 1000 human generations -- he's lucky he's got a longer lifespan :) However, I think the beard was some of that "holywood shorthand" for "this guy is a rugged adventurer type". Marc _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 13:34:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EHYvRM000349 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:34:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EHWcd5008631 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:32:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EHWb4g049824; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:32:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f36.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.86]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EHUb4g048068 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:30:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:30:30 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:30:30 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:30:30 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2004 17:30:30.0534 (UTC) FILETIME=[429F7A60:01C469C8] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Some medieval prices... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO From: Sue Clemenger >Marc, you're an absolute doll! (on top of being a research god!) Thank you (must remember to get some of those temples set up...) Marc _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 13:59:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EHxMRM000441 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:59:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EHwYd5010946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:58:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EHwQ4g070651; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:58:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EHwM4g070602 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:58:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040714175821.WPPP9273.out002.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:58:21 -0500 Message-ID: <40F57440.4010800@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:58:24 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com References: <200407141334.i6EDY64h067186@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407141334.i6EDY64h067186@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:58:21 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 523 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO "Susan Carroll-Clark" Wrote: >Prince of Thieves suffered >too much from Kevin Costner's wooden acting/delivery style, which sometimes >works, but not in this. > This one isn't his fault. He engaged a dialect coach to give him a more believable accent/delivery becasue he *didn't* want to sound like the lone American in medieval England. Guess who fired the dialect coach? Producer or director, I can't remember which now. They didn't want to put off the Costner fans by making him sound "different." Pbbbthpt. M. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 14:40:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EIeqRM000609 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:40:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EIb2d5014474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:37:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EIaU4g001014; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:36:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EIZc4g000297 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:35:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1213202 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:35:32 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:35:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6EIZc4g000297 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I just think it was funny that the beard never was any longer or shorter. AND none of them ever got cleaner or dirtier, always the same dirty, whether they slept or not, whether they were in the meadows or under the mountain -- or even in the snow. LynnD On 7/14/04 10:28 AM, "Marc Carlson" wrote: >> From: Janet Renzetti >> ...BUt when in the wilds he let it grow. Perhaps he had VERY dominant >> human genes.. > > If we assume that not all Humans were Numenorean, and that Isildure lived > what, 3,000 years before Aragorn. That's like a 1000 human generations -- > he's lucky he's got a longer lifespan :) > > However, I think the beard was some of that "holywood shorthand" for "this > guy is a rugged adventurer type". > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE > download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 14:47:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EIlJRM000636 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:47:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EIkjd5015355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:46:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EIkg4g009578; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:46:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com (imo-m24.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EIkc4g009461 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:46:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1aa.264cdf6e (4552) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:46:25 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1aa.264cdf6e.2e26d981@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:46:25 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/14/2004 10:51:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > and me absolutely personally hating > the movie "Unforgiven" does not make it a bad movie, it just makes it a > movie > that didn't work for me. > But making a movie call "Robin Hood" and eliminating King John from the story DOES make it an awful movie. Sorry Tiffany, but some things are awful even if people like them. Art is not totally subjective and these long expensive epic films supposedly based on history are not larks, like "Scream" or "Dude, Where's my Car?". It's obvious these films are going for more, and they fail on many levels. You may not like, oh, say, Vermeer, but it is not a subjective judgment to say Vermeer is better than a velvet Elvis. It simply is. There are criteria for excellence plus all opinions are not equally valid. And that's the way it is. Do you think I'm a snob? Too bad. I'm not. But I expect certain things from a multimillion dollar project with many fine artists and artisans working on it. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 15:00:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EJ0pRM000704 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:00:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EIx5d5016532 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:59:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EIwr4g019719; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:59:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m28.mx.aol.com (imo-m28.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.9]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EIwV4g019306 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:58:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.83.108008f8 (4552) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:58:25 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <83.108008f8.2e26dc51@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:58:25 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale costuming To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/14/2004 12:14:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, FyneHats2@aol.com writes: > If you are interested in a commercial film that did a fairly good job with > costuming the Middle Ages, rent "Black Knight" with Martin Lawrence. I worked on that film. In fact I dressed extras. The designer's intention was to have the theme park costumes very bright and costumey so when he went back in time, clothes were to be vegetable dye colors and muted and realistic. The producers didn't like that look in rushes. Suddenly we were renting any bright costume we could get. We had to paint the guards leather brighter red right on the set! The extras clothes actually span several centuries. But I sure am glad you noticed them. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 15:44:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EJieRM000868 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:44:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EJgXd5020364 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:42:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EJgS4g054748; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:42:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EJgP4g054712 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:42:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040714194225.WRNB6671.out003.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:42:25 -0500 Message-ID: <005901c469da$b02d91e0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040714082047.63762.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:42:24 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:42:24 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think it was done to make him look more rugged, also we didn't want to be thinking about him in GI Jane for LOTR, his character was such a jerk in that movie :) B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Freyalynn Close-Hainsworth" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 1:20 AM Subject: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT > In my opinion, Aragorn should not have had facial hair at all. Tolkien specifically mentions that elves have none at all, and the men descended from elves (however distantly) either had none at all or very little. Which doesn't really address the non-growth of Aragorn's (or Boromir's for that matter) but I just thought I'd mention it. > > One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. > > Freyalyn > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 15:47:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EJlcRM000872 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:47:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EJjpd5020749 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:45:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EJjp4g057434; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:45:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com (imo-m15.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.205]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EJjQ4g057112 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:45:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.162.31e8a70e (4552) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:45:18 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <162.31e8a70e.2e26e74e@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:45:18 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: first knight vs. knight's tale To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/14/2004 11:06:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > Julia Ormond's Guenevere. She came across to me as > flat, emotionless, arrogant, joyless, humorless, witless and irritating. And if people would stop for a minute drooling over Sean [a difficult proposition I admit] and actually look at what he's doing, you'll see he is sleep walking through this turkey. Sometimes you have to do it for the check. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 16:28:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EKSKRM001030 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:28:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKR9d5025067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:27:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKQu4g090076; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:27:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKQj4g089855 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:26:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-94-81.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.94.81]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6EKQGBs022408 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:26:30 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040714131934.0196f950@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:21:26 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: <3B9F7D99-D5A7-11D8-83E1-000D9353A386@modehistorique.com> References: <20040714.074258.-142850929.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> <20040714.074258.-142850929.1.Seamstrix@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >> The practice of an applied, decorative stomacher over the front >> of a low necked bodice seems to have started with Winters and Savoy >> (who did a great job getting Elizabethan costuming going in the early days >> of RenFaires) and I believe it is based on an erroneous assumption. > >Actually, Winter & Savoy advocated a "false stomacher" look. All of >their square-necked bodices are simply outlined with trim in a >stomacher-shape, which is what really has no basis in historical >practice. The diagonal lines of trim they advocate putting down the side-fronts of bodices is shown in several contemporary portraits, tho not quite like Faire Folk do it. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 16:44:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EKiFRM001121 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:44:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKgKd5026800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:42:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKgE4g002967; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:42:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51101.mail.yahoo.com (web51101.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6EKgC4g002853 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:42:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040714204207.47173.qmail@web51101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.248.48] by web51101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:42:07 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:42:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Merideth To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] question about European costume book X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi folks I have a question concerning a picture in the book European Costume 4000 years of fashion by Doreen Yarwood. (I'm hoping someone out there has the book) On page 97, person # 403 c.1495 England. Her dress is very unusual and I'd like to see the original painting the illustrator used to draw this lady. In the notes on the illustrations section of the book it says "Painting. Fur lined gown buttoned up to waist at rear...etc" Anyway, the word "painting" is not very good support for your information. Anyone out there know who painted it, when it was painted? If it's online anywhere, I've been looking and it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. Thanks, Cheri ===== Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 16:51:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EKp3RM001147 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:51:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKn9d5027501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:49:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKn74g008725; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:49:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp100.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp100.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.78]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6EKmf4g008234 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:48:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO 39jz301) (nicolaa@rogers.com@69.195.103.193 with login) by smtp100.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2004 20:48:32 -0000 Message-ID: <006901c469e3$ee84cdb0$c167c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: Knight's Tale was: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:48:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > I saw with with a bunch of SCA friends. We had such a good time! > > And someone tells me Wolgemut played a "medievalized" version of "We will > rock you" on the battlefield that Pennsic (There's also a version of it on > their cd "Danza"). Well, they didn't play it, really. They just made a joke about the "boom boom clap" rhythm that goes with it. The music itself that goes with the rhythm has nothing to do with it. Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 16:56:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EKulRM001175 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:56:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKtOd5028220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:55:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKtJ4g014282; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:55:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EKtH4g014129 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:55:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BkqmP-000PJ5-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:55:05 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:53:41 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale costuming References: <198.2bb7ee72.2e26b5cd@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <198.2bb7ee72.2e26b5cd@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO FyneHats2@aol.com wrote > >P.S. Shrek and Shrek 2 are pretty good on the costuming side too. :) > And did you see the miniatures in the credits? I loved them - especially the editing one, sitting on the floor with shears and a reel of film! Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 17:30:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ELUJRM001325 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:30:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ELSOd5001813 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:28:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ELSD4g040574; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:28:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ELS74g040508 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:28:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0189.dialsprint.net ([63.186.144.189]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkrIM-0007E9-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:28:06 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:28:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO on 7/14/04 2:35 PM, Lynn Downward at LDownward@chori.org wrote: > I just think it was funny that the beard never was any longer or shorter. > AND none of them ever got cleaner or dirtier, always the same dirty, whether > they slept or not, whether they were in the meadows or under the mountain -- > or even in the snow. > > LynnD For that one, take a close look at the next "street person" you meet. There does in fact seem to be a point beyond which one does not really get any more dirty. I heard that Viggo slept in his costume through the whole shoot. Is that true? I like an actor who cares about his character's appearance that much (and I'm not joking). --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 17:37:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ELbURM001354 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:37:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ELYed5002401 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:34:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ELYb4g045685; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:34:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ELYY4g045589 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:34:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from SNSpies@aol.com) Received: from SNSpies@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 7.113.3527279e (4459) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:34:23 -0400 (EDT) From: SNSpies@aol.com Message-ID: <113.3527279e.2e2700df@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:34:23 EDT To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] shawls X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A quick question, please: is there any evidence for shawls being worn in Europe after the Merovingians? Does the definition of shawl include "having a fringe"? If not, would the woven fabric thrown over a Viking woman's shoulders be considered a shawl? Nancy <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Nancy Spies Arelate Studio www.weavershand.com/ArelateStudio.html Ingvild Josefsdatter, OL Bright Hills, Atlantia "This effervescence that you observe in me is intellectual carbonisation. Spiritual rejoicing. An entirely cerebral scintillation." Josephine Tey, "Daughter of Time" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 18:09:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6EM9cRM001539 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:09:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EM7md5005534 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:07:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EM7d4g071953; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:07:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6EM7Y4g071839 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:07:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lynneconnolly@ntlworld.com) Received: from acer-zncxxrqauo.ntlworld.com ([80.5.59.233]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.37 201-229-121-137-20020806) with ESMTP id <20040714220737.VFHL2500.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@acer-zncxxrqauo.ntlworld.com> for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:07:37 +0100 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040714225514.01e76818@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: pop.ntlworld.com/110/lynneconnolly@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:07:25 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Lynne Connolly Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book In-Reply-To: <20040714204207.47173.qmail@web51101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> <20040714204207.47173.qmail@web51101.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-65343B96; boundary="=======36D69B8=======" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --=======36D69B8======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-65343B96; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 21:42 14/07/2004 Cheri Merideth said >Hi folks > >I have a question concerning a picture in the book >European Costume 4000 years of fashion by Doreen >Yarwood. (I'm hoping someone out there has the book) > > >On page 97, person # 403 c.1495 England. Her dress is >very unusual and I'd like to see the original painting >the illustrator used to draw this lady. In the notes >on the illustrations section of the book it says >"Painting. Fur lined gown buttoned up to waist at >rear...etc" I have the earlier "English Costume." On page 97 there is a lady with a truncated hennin and a butterfly veil, which I've always believed was based on this portrait of Elizabeth Woodville (a bit earlier than 1495) http://www.quns.cam.ac.uk/Queens/Misc/Elizabeth.html However, if it's the lady on page 104, with the fur lined gown turned up at the back, I don't know where that comes from. However, if it is English, there are few portraits from this period, and no full length ones, so I don't know how she got the detail of the back of the gown. Also, paintings of this period are rarely if ever taken from the back. It looks as though it's part of a larger work, so it's probably more in the nature of an illustration, or something like that. Lynne Connolly, GSOLFOT The latest Richard and Rose adventure, HARLEY STREET, is here! http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lynneconnolly/ http://www.novelbooksinc.com/authors/lynne_connolly/index.html --=======36D69B8======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --=======36D69B8=======-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 19:47:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ENlGRM002048 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:47:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ENjHd5013379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:45:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ENjC4g041745; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:45:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ENj74h041692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:45:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6ENolAu006420 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:50:47 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i6ENolmJ006419 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:50:47 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: first knight vs. knight's tale Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:50:46 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <162.31e8a70e.2e26e74e@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <162.31e8a70e.2e26e74e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407141950.46968.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 14 July 2004 3:45 pm, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/14/2004 11:06:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > > Julia Ormond's Guenevere. She came across to me as > > flat, emotionless, arrogant, joyless, humorless, witless and irritating. > > And if people would stop for a minute drooling over Sean [a difficult > proposition I admit] and actually look at what he's doing, you'll see he is > sleep walking through this turkey. Sometimes you have to do it for the > check. Yes, I agree with both of you. Guenevere was drab and irritating, Connery was sleepwalking through the part, and --there was a Lancelot? AND the costumes were drab and forgettable (ignoring the lack of historicity). On the other hand, Eric rather enjoyed "A Knight's Tale." I haven't seen that one. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 19:59:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ENx4RM002119 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:59:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ENvHd5014100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:57:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ENvF4g049135; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:57:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51101.mail.yahoo.com (web51101.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6ENvC4g049050 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:57:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040714235707.86898.qmail@web51101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.248.48] by web51101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:57:07 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:57:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Merideth Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040714225514.01e76818@127.0.0.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > However, if it's the lady on page 104, with the fur lined gown turned up at > the back, I don't know where that comes from. That is exactly the one I'm looking at. > However, if it is English, there are few portraits from this period, and no > full length ones, so I don't know how she got the detail of the back of the > gown. Also, paintings of this period are rarely if ever taken from the > back. That was one of the most unusual parts about it. I thought maybe it was just one person in a painting of many people. Not just her in the painting. No one posed for someone to paint them rear first that I've seen. Considering the book is suppose to be historical fact and she lists some references for the illustrations, one would assume she was looking at something for the drawing of that dress and if she came up with it via a written description, what put "painting"? Cheri Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 20:06:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F06HRM002147 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:06:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F045d5014482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:04:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F0434g053196; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:04:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51103.mail.yahoo.com (web51103.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.145]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6F0404g053114 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:04:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040715000355.22273.qmail@web51103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.248.48] by web51103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:03:55 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:03:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Merideth Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040714225514.01e76818@127.0.0.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have the earlier "English Costume." On page 97 However, if it's the lady on page 104, with the fur lined gown turned up at I think your pages are numbered differently than mine. Mine is an original printing in 1975, is yours? Because I double checked, and the fur lined gown turned up in the back is on page 97. Oh, well, you knew the one anyway cleaver lady you are. Cheri Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 21:02:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F122RM002355 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:02:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F105d5017892 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:00:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F0xu4g086796; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:59:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f32.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F0xm4g086693 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:59:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 17:59:42 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:59:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: Knight's Tale was: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:59:42 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2004 00:59:42.0921 (UTC) FILETIME=[037F5B90:01C46A07] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Knight's Tale was: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur >Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 13:45:26 +0000 > >>The first time my husband and I saw "Knight's Tale", we both laughed our >>socks off. Sort of a >>'medieval meets the wierder aspects of the SCA' movie. > >I saw with with a bunch of SCA friends. We had such a good time! > >And someone tells me Wolgemut played a "medievalized" version of "We will >rock you" on the battlefield that Pennsic (There's also a version of it on >their cd "Danza"). > i will see if i cannot get it. so we can added to the track with " Mortal Armon" we do one of the court dances to the Mortal Combat theme. don't asked.. don't asked.. but it kewl:) _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 21:31:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F1VORM002468 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:31:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1T4d5019635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:29:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1T34g003669; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:29:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f18.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1T24g003609 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:29:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:28:56 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:28:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:28:56 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2004 01:28:56.0319 (UTC) FILETIME=[189AA8F0:01C46A0B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO But I have a terrible confession to make here: I LOVE the green suede >outfit the woman farrier/armorer ends up in when they have been making >money >for a while. It was kind of a sleeveless jumper worn over a lovely blouse >and appeared to be a split skirt, with a kind of stand-up spread collar >like >something Katherine Hepburn would have worn in the 40s. I have no inkling >if >it would have been historically correct -- there aren't a whole lot of >paintings or tomb effigies of female armorers -- but I want one to wear >NOW! >Almost worth getting the DVD to squint at that dress. > as far as I know that apron is not accurate in any time era. but the female amour looksed looked good in ..... http://us.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0183790/kt_CT19157.jpg Wilhelmina _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 21:47:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F1lvRM002533 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:47:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1lId5020726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:47:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1lH4g014437; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:47:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1lF4g014381 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:47:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from reddawn.net (js.reddawn.net [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFE24264A for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:10:37 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <40F5E25B.7010000@reddawn.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:48:11 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] viscose? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've found some fabric labelled "viscose". What is this? It looks like rayon. Should I expect it to shrink and bleed, too? Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 21:48:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F1m5RM002536 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:48:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1ivd5020621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:44:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1it4g013080; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:44:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f15.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.15]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1iq4g012991 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:44:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:44:47 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:44:47 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:44:47 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2004 01:44:47.0668 (UTC) FILETIME=[4FA6FF40:01C46A0D] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >Susan wrote: >>I don't know. I have several chitons I wear and guys seem to find them >>sexy >>(at least from the comments I got last time I wore one). I think part is >>their simplicity and gracefulness and part is they sometimes expose areas >>that don't often get exposed in modern clothes (directly under the armpit) >>making it titillating by giving it a hint of showing something different >>while actually you are showing less then that wench over there with her >>tits >>on a platter. Also they, at least mine, don't always stay on the >>shoulders. >>So you have the Theiss theory working for you (the attractiveness of >>clothing on women is not really dependent on the amount of skin shown - >>rather, it depends on the degree to which the outfit appears to be on the >>verge of falling off.) >> >>In other words, if I want to be graceful and sexy for the least amount of >>effort, I wear a chiton. >> >>I've never seen sleeves on a chiton, mine are the doric type with the fold >>at the top and sewn up either both or just one side. Most are longer so I >>can do the extra fold at the waist. >> >>Susan in Seattle. >> Susan, In the kingdom of Merides, we were our chiton in a total un-authentic way..with tank tops and (middle eastern style pants or legging to preserve modesty. It is to funny to see a knight almost fall over trying to see if something is going to bounce thru the opening. Oddly enough in 96 degree weather with humity at 50 percent and the index pushing the temp to well over a hundred it is cooler. Wilhelmina _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 21:51:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F1pfRM002568 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:51:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1p9d5020910 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:51:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1p84g016693; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:51:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1ng4g015827 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:49:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6F2LC5c098770 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:21:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6F2L70V098768 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:21:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407150221.i6F2L70V098768@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book In-Reply-To: <20040714204207.47173.qmail@web51101.mail.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I have a question concerning a picture in the book > European Costume 4000 years of fashion by Doreen > Yarwood. (I'm hoping someone out there has the book) > I do! Jerusha waves > On page 97, person # 403 c.1495 England. Her dress is > very unusual and I'd like to see the original painting > the illustrator used to draw this lady. In the notes > on the illustrations section of the book it says > "Painting. Fur lined gown buttoned up to waist at > rear...etc" I've seen this in several Flemish rather than English paintings. I don't know if I have the "exact" painting that this is from or not -- all my images are on the other computer (the thumbnails ...) I'll see what I can find and post for you later (maybe tomorrow) > > Anyway, the word "painting" is not very good support > for your information. > > Anyone out there know who painted it, when it was > painted? If it's online anywhere, I've been looking > and it's like looking for a needle in a haystack. I have to say, she usually gives better sources than "painting" and other than some Early Period stuff (my son wants #175), she's generally pretty good about citing more "stuff" than "painting." Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 21:55:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F1t6RM002584 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:55:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1rGd5021019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:53:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1rG4g017978; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:53:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F1rB4g017931 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:53:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-94-81.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.94.81]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6F1r1Bs009265 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:53:06 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040714185600.01574d90@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 18:56:40 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] viscose? In-Reply-To: <40F5E25B.7010000@reddawn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >I've found some fabric labelled "viscose". What is this? It looks like >rayon. Should I expect it to shrink and bleed, too? As far as I know, they're the same fibre, made from cellulose. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 22:08:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F28VRM002667 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:08:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F21ed5021661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:01:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F21b4g023119; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:01:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F21Y4g023089 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:01:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6F2X85c098960 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:33:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6F2X8fW098959 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:33:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407150233.i6F2X8fW098959@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > In the kingdom of Merides, we were our chiton in a total un-authentic > way..with tank tops and (middle eastern style pants or legging to preserve > modesty. It is to funny to see a knight almost fall over trying to see if > something is going to bounce thru the opening. I have to say I've been inactive for the last 10 years, but that one I never saw. I wear mine over my swimsuit. JErusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 22:19:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F2JBRM002738 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:19:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2HOd5022894 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:17:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2HM4g032218; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:17:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2HK4g032198 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:17:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-57-171.jps.net ([209.165.57.171] helo=KALC) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BkvoF-0006CN-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:17:20 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] viscose? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:17:17 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <4.1.20040714185600.01574d90@mail.frys.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Viscose is a rayon, but I suspect not all rayons are made by a viscose process. see http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/rayon.htm Lisa Sinervo -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Carolyn Kayta Barrows Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 6:57 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] viscose? >I've found some fabric labelled "viscose". What is this? It looks like >rayon. Should I expect it to shrink and bleed, too? As far as I know, they're the same fibre, made from cellulose. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 22:40:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F2eKRM002948 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:40:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2c7d5024363 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:38:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2c54g044136; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:38:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.netspace.net.au (cumulus.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.72]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2c34g044017 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:38:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from stilskin@netspace.net.au) Received: from localhost (sprinkle.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.77]) by mail.netspace.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C1170047 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:37:52 +1000 (EST) Received: from dialup-a1-43.Melbourne.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-43.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.113.246.43]) by webmail.netspace.net.au (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:37:52 +1000 Message-ID: <1089859072.40f5ee00563c8@webmail.netspace.net.au> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:37:52 +1000 From: stilskin@netspace.net.au To: Historical Costume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Knight's Tale X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The importqance of movies set in the past is the opportunity to learn about the past. I, for one, was thrilled to learn the origin of the Nike flash, -C. ------------------------------------------------------------ This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 22:45:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F2juRM003012 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:45:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2jNd5024786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:45:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2jM4g048183; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:45:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net (invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.254]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2jK4g048127 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:45:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.21.26.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.21.26] helo=HELENPINTO) by invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BkwFK-0000vr-6f for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:45:18 -0700 Message-ID: <04e101c46a15$bc2511e0$1a159b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40F5E25B.7010000@reddawn.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] viscose? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:45:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef02925f94df80b966514926a5ae355854350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.21.26 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dawn wrote: > I've found some fabric labelled "viscose". What is this? It looks like > rayon. Should I expect it to shrink and bleed, too? > Viscose is actually the name of the process used to make rayon, but it's frequently used interchangeably with rayon as the name of the fabric. Since it is rayon, it will behave that way, so treat it the same. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 22:49:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F2nbRM003039 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:49:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2lid5024970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:47:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2lg4g049635; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:47:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt16.ihug.co.nz (grunt16.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2jx4g048521 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:45:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p508-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.193.254] by grunt16.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BkwFx-0002wQ-00; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:45:57 +1200 Message-ID: <009f01c46a15$ce56d0b0$fec1adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040713154358.02038aa8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu><20040714204207.47173.qmail@web51101.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.2.0.0.20040714225514.01e76818@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:45:32 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I have the earlier "English Costume." On page 97 there is a lady with a > truncated hennin and a butterfly veil, which I've always believed was based > on this portrait of Elizabeth Woodville (a bit earlier than 1495) > http://www.quns.cam.ac.uk/Queens/Misc/Elizabeth.html > However, if it's the lady on page 104, with the fur lined gown turned up at > the back, I don't know where that comes from. However, if it is English, > there are few portraits from this period, and no full length ones, so I > don't know how she got the detail of the back of the gown. Also, paintings > of this period are rarely if ever taken from the back. It looks as though > it's part of a larger work, so it's probably more in the nature of an > illustration, or something like that. I do not have the book, so I'm just going by the description. I believe this isa painting from the Continent, and of a Flemish origin. http://www.mauritia.de/de/mittelalter/brugescourt.html I think the image might be from this. Or another section of the same painting, or in the same series. According to History of Costume by Blanch Payne it's "A Dance of Mirth in a Garden," late 15thC FLemish, from Romance of the Rose. On a far side (I have two copies that mirror each other) there is a lady in profile with her skirt pinned/looped at the back exposing the inside. http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary/controller/subjectidsearch?id=8099&idx=1&start=2 Two ladies on the right. The lady in pink has a fur lined gown. The other is lined in black that could be fur or some other material. title of image: "The Carole in the Garden" title of work: "Roman de la Rose" illustrator: Master of the Prayerbooks of circa 1500 production: South Netherlands (Bruges) circa 1490-1500 There other brass monumnts that show the same styel as Elizabeth Woodville wears, so it seems ot have been an English fashion. From what I've fouynd, only an English fashion. It's one of my fave style too;) Margaret Peyton. http://www.britishbrassrubbings.com/peyton.htm http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/isleham_brass.htm Joan Neville: http://www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=L067 Elizabeth Marshall http://www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=L063 Isabella Cheyne http://www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=L065 Margaret Bernard Peyton and Margaret Francis Peyton http://www.whitewinds.co.uk/acatalog/White_Winds__Peo_to_Pz_73.html Though the secon Margaret looks suspiciously like Isabella... I found a family in Visual History of Costume with the same style as well. michaela de bruce http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 22:49:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F2ndRM003045 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:49:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2lsd5024994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:47:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F2lq4g049742; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:47:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51104.mail.yahoo.com (web51104.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.146]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6F2lT4g049448 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:47:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040715024723.60052.qmail@web51104.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.248.48] by web51104.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:47:23 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:47:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Merideth Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <200407150221.i6F2L70V098768@sabre.goldsword.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO all my images are on the other computer (the thumbnails ...) I'll see what I can find and post for you later (maybe tomorrow) Thank you so much! I have to say, she usually gives better sources than "painting" and other than some Early Period stuff (my son wants #175), she's generally pretty good about citing more "stuff" than "painting." Yes, most of the book is very well documented. But wouldn't you know it, the one I'm interested in....."painting". That's me in a nut shell. Thanks again for looking, your a sweetheart. Good luck on your sons garb. Czechoslovakia 1085. Shouldn't be too hard to reproduce. And is good garb for eventing, washable, layers so he can go down layers or up as the day gets hot or cold. I'm in Washington, it's in the 90's during the day and still chilly sweater weather at night. Good choice. Anne Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 23:14:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F3EYRM003101 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:14:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F3CGd5026892 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:12:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F3CD4g063871; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:12:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.netspace.net.au (whirlwind.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.76]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F3C94g063810 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:12:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from stilskin@netspace.net.au) Received: from chris (dialup-a1-43.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.113.246.43]) by mail.netspace.net.au (Postfix) with SMTP id D3571D493B for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:12:07 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <000b01c46a1a$09988160$2bf671cb@chris> From: "Christopher Ballis" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40F5E25B.7010000@reddawn.net> <04e101c46a15$bc2511e0$1a159b04@HELENPINTO> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:15:51 +1000 Organization: Australian Costume Supply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] viscose? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Methinks it's either a brand name or an alternative rayon-making process. Either way, it reacts like rayon. I have a vague memory of the name rayon being suggested by someone called Kenneth Lord Snr around 5 or 10 years after the process was devised. I also kind'a remember some story of rayon having a higher oil content while viscose has a more pulp basis but am probably remembering all wrong - age and too much Jerry Springer will do that to you, -C. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 14 23:17:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F3HGRM003116 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:17:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F3FOd5027353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:15:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F3FN4g066467; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:15:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from softwareinnovation.com (w002.z064000176.dfw-tx.dsl.cnc.net [64.0.176.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F3DN4g064706 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:13:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from betsy@softwareinnovation.com) Received: from theforce ([64.0.176.13]) by softwareinnovation.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:12:40 -0500 From: "Betsy Marshall" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:13:22 -0500 Message-ID: <000401c46a19$afd3da80$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <1089859072.40f5ee00563c8@webmail.netspace.net.au> Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2004 03:12:40.0626 (UTC) FILETIME=[96948920:01C46A19] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Possibly cool book X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Looking for books on Jewelry illustration/rendering, I stumbled on this.. http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=204214285 (anybody got their tax refund check handy?) Betsy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 00:05:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F45XRM003380 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:05:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F43Vd5000525 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:03:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F43M4g094569; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:03:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F43I4g094533 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:03:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6F43F8o028389 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:03:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Possibly cool book Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:04:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <000401c46a19$afd3da80$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Best book ever for jewelry rendering -- Techniques of Jewelry Illustration and Color Rendering- By Adolfo Mattiello. Talia > Looking for books on Jewelry illustration/rendering, I stumbled on > this.. > > http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=204214285 > > (anybody got their tax refund check handy?) > Betsy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 00:16:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F4GSRM003538 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:16:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F4Egd5001093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:14:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F4EY4g000789; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:14:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp-07.primus.ca (mail.tor.primus.ca [216.254.136.21]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F4EV4h000732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:14:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanna.hobbins@mail.mcgill.ca) Received: from dsl-207-112-56-204.tor.primus.ca ([207.112.56.204] helo=pheonix) by smtp-07.primus.ca with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1Bkxgl-0001WM-0A for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:17:43 +0000 Message-ID: <003101c46a22$032d76c0$6501a8c0@pheonix> From: "Joanna Hobbins" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000401c46a19$afd3da80$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Possibly cool book Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:12:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Does anyone know if this is an earlier edition of "The history of the feminine costume of the world, from the year 5318 B.C. to our century" also by Paul Louis de Giafferri, but from 1926. My university has that one, but unfortunately I can't get access to it till October. (Climate control, who needs climate control?) Joanna ----- Original Message ----- > Looking for books on Jewelry illustration/rendering, I stumbled on > this.. > > http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=204214285 > > (anybody got their tax refund check handy?) > Betsy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 00:56:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F4u2RM003672 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:56:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F4tDd5003779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:55:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F4tC4g023171; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:55:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm29.prodigy.net (ylpvm29-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F4t94g023144 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:55:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-94-81.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.94.81]) by ylpvm29.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6F4sZ0X019358 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:54:54 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040714205438.00ce5ef0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:55:14 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? Anotherconstrasting stomacher... In-Reply-To: <003401c469b8$a7251220$6a01a8c0@SG01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Are the little orange tips on her sleeve or are they part of the gown behind >her? They're the edges of the hanging oversleeves. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 02:32:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F6WARM005280 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:32:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F6UUd5008756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:30:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F6UR4g074363; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:30:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F6UP4g074273 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:30:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from edieann@telus.net) Received: from moms ([207.81.27.182]) by priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with SMTP id <20040715063017.CKFY22565.priv-edtnes51.telusplanet.net@moms> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:30:17 -0600 Message-ID: <001c01c46a36$1b8b2aa0$b61b51cf@bc.hsia.telus.net> From: "Edith Reardon" To: Subject: [h-cost] viscose? Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:36:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6F6WARM005280 Status: RO Viscose is sometimes 100% rayon but I have seen lots of ads for natural Vicose and this description of a outfit suggests it is a cotton sometimes. #300 - SURF BOMBER & #400 - LOUNGE PANTS • made from recyclable material • durable, natural chamois fibre • protects from windchill and sun exposure • made from natural stock of cotton plants • 100% viscose fleece is non-woven • pre-washed & pre-shrunk • becomes softer/more comfortable each wash Brin Kendall _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 04:23:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F8NMRM006281 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:23:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F8Mbd5013674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:22:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F8MR4g033427; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:22:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F8MJ4g033104 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:22:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6F8MGC22350.; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:22:16 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:21:46 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:21:26 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Knight's Tale costuming Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Anyone read "The Cazalet Chronicles" by Elizabeth Jane Howard? (Four novels about an upper-middle-class English family in the 1930s-40s.) Anyway, I'm just reading book 4 "Casting off" in which there's a hilarious description of the experiences of one of the daughters as an extra in a film supposedly set in Ancient Rome. A group of them are supposed to be slave girls. They are dressed in skimpy velvet costumes with a bare midriff, and there's a heated debate between the Period Advisor, the designer and the director(?) about what they should wear on their feet. They end up being made to wear high heels! Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 04:27:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F8RMRM006288 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:27:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F8Qid5013873 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:26:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F8Qg4g035511; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:26:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F8Qa4g035414 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:26:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6F8R0C22945.; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:27:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:26:30 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:26:09 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Someone commented about "Master and Commander" that, since sailors were only required to shave twice a week, there ought to have been more stubble visible: but imagine the continuity nightmare of working out how many days' beard everyone should have in each scene! >>> LDownward@chori.org 14/07/2004 19:35:32 >>> I just think it was funny that the beard never was any longer or shorter. AND none of them ever got cleaner or dirtier, always the same dirty, whether they slept or not, whether they were in the meadows or under the mountain -- or even in the snow. LynnD ____________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 04:32:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F8WCRM006308 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:32:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F8VXd5014166 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:31:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F8VW4g038150; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:31:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F8VE4g037947 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 02:31:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:28:46 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Different coloured sleeves (WAS: sleeveless shifts) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF44@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Different coloured sleeves (WAS: sleeveless shifts) Thread-Index: AcRncUERcHcxtKBFS/6BBpesILNJHgC1Ef+g content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > However, did you notice that some of the houppelandish things > had different > colored bag sleeves with hanging sleeves that went to the > floor? Like these > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008188.JPG > (you can open the link in a new window, just not the whole frame) > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008191.JPG I assume the contrast undersleeves are the sleeves of the garment worn beneath the houpellandes. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 05:14:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F9EwRM006469 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:14:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F96wd5015953 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:06:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F96t4g056592; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:06:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F96p4g056538 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:06:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:05:44 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF48@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? Thread-Index: AcRnstBWaefrITBHQ1acdwdDV20cugCl6UVw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > And we think these were woven on the diagonal why? Because there's a picture of some tartan fabric being woven with the pattern running diagonally. Someone (it may even have been Danielle who raised the matter this time around) posted a link to the picture some years ago whe the subject was also under discussion. Sorry, I can't remember when and wouldn't know where/how to search the archives for it, but I definately remember seeing the picture and it was a tartan/plaid looking pattern on the diagonal on the loom. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 05:28:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6F9SfRM006514 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:28:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F9S9d5017596 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:28:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F9S74g068075; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:28:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6F9Rr4g067969 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:27:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:25:39 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF49@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children Thread-Index: AcRoJRRHvJXuUYaSSp2KAcrpW9SlbgCKC9Cw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I recall a child-minder for a toddler/preschooler in one of the > Stratford-on-Avon houses; it was a pole in the floor with a pivot, to > which you attached the child so it wouldn't fall into the fire. Seems > like a good idea to me! They said it was original, or a repro, I dont' > recall which. The simpler version for outdoor being a stake or peg banged into the ground with a rope tied to it, the other end of the rope being tied around the child to prevent them form wandering off. We're contemplating one for our god-daughter for use on re-enactment sites when she gets to the toddling stage... probably before the summer is out. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 06:10:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FAACRM006679 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:10:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FA9Xd5019653 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:09:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FA9T4g089957; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:09:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FA9R4g089892 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:09:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.5a.2dd8c557 (4529) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:09:14 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <5a.2dd8c557.2e27b1ca@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:09:14 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] viscose? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/14/2004 10:45:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, hpinto@mindspring.com writes: Viscose is actually the name of the process used to make rayon, but it's frequently used interchangeably with rayon as the name of the fabric. Since it is rayon, There are two different processes used to make rayon--the viscose process and the cuprammonium process. The latter was more or less discontinued, at least here in the U.S., because it is not environmentally friendly. Recently, though, I have seen some fabrics labelled as such--perhaps they are not made in the U.S. All rayon is regenerated cellulose, so while it is a manufactured fiber, it is not a synthetic one. Maybe that is what that goofy "natural" viscose description means! I don't think the source of the cellulose matters a bit in manufacturing. When I visited a rayon plant, they were using sheets of purified cellulose as the raw material. Not all rayon bleeds or shrinks--a lot depends on how the fabric is made. Rayon is weaker when wet than dry and I think that is what leads some manufacturers to label their garments "dry clean only" when it is not strictly necessary--they only need to identify one way of caring for the garment. I think we see so much rayon on the market because it is cheap to make. It also has excellent drape and takes dyes well. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 06:13:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FADbRM006704 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:13:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FABid5019817 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:11:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FABg4g091156; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:11:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m22.mx.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FABH4g090871 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:11:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.fb.5bc3531f (4529) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:11:04 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:11:04 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] viscose? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 6:10:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, AnnBWass@aol.com writes: It also has excellent drape and takes dyes well. But this also means it wrinkles like crazy! Ann Wass Whose 1920s dress of rayon crepe is going to require a lot of ironing before she can wear it this weekend. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 07:33:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FBXXRM007194 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:33:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FBVcd5024221 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:31:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FBVV4g031187; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:31:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FBVS4g031101 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:31:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:30:12 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Aragorn To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF4E@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] OT: Aragorn Thread-Index: AcRog/yfle8OapBjQmqJxiMCz7ZwUgB2sauw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > the hair was a wig or hair pieces according to one of the > LOTR special I watched. And Jackson filmed all three movies at once, the > beard was stayed the same in all three. I'm sorry, but it was carefully maintained as the same level for all three films (presumablyu for continuity purposes) but it would hav ehad to have been trimmed daily to maintain that horrible unkempt/not-shaved-recently look instead of developing into a full beard. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 09:10:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FDASRM007731 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:10:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FD87d5002190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:08:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FD834g084987; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:08:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FD814g084960 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:08:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bl5xw-0003V5-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:08:00 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] question about European costume book Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:08:02 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c46a6c$c27c3a30$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <009f01c46a15$ce56d0b0$fec1adcb@michaela> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Margaret Bernard Peyton and Margaret Francis Peyton >http://www.whitewinds.co.uk/acatalog/White_Winds__Peo_to_Pz_73.html >Though the secon Margaret looks suspiciously like Isabella... [Sg] It had never occurred to me to ask on this list, but you have solved a mystery for me! I was given an origianl brass rubbing of the the Margret Francis brass and was told there was another wife, but didn't know who they were! Coool, of course now I want the other one....very bad.... Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 09:15:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FDFXRM007767 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:15:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDEPd5002628 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:14:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDEO4g088737; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:14:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f16.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDEM4g088657 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:14:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:14:16 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:14:16 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: Knight's Tale was: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:14:16 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2004 13:14:16.0732 (UTC) FILETIME=[A18935C0:01C46A6D] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > And someone tells me Wolgemut played a "medievalized" version of "We >will > > rock you" on the battlefield that Pennsic (There's also a version of it >on > > their cd "Danza"). > >Well, they didn't play it, really. They just made a joke about the "boom >boom clap" rhythm that goes with it. The music itself that goes with the >rhythm has nothing to do with it. I know, but I couldn't find a way to explain it... Thanks for doing it for me ;-P _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium: Up to 11 personalized e-mail addresses and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 09:18:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FDIERM007780 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:18:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDHid5002853 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:17:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDHh4g090498; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:17:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDHd4g090475 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:17:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:16:27 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Other films (WAS: King Arthur) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF50@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Other films (WAS: King Arthur) Thread-Index: AcRo+BPGZU4oZ/s9S1uey0eEmxC6fgBdSKzQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > (Braveheart, Robin Hood Prince of Thieves, Gladiator) > > > Well that's enough to keep me away. All those films are awful! > > > Wow, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that. Two of them won > Oscars for Best Picture, all of them including the third were resounding > commercial successes. I can understand if someone says that they > personally* did not like a movie or certain movies, but just to blanketly > declare that they're all "awful?" Huh. They looked so awful that I've never bothered seeing any of them. I shan't be bothering with King Arthur either. If nothing else had put me off, the banner "the true story behind the legend" would have. "Another myth behind the legend,"possibly... just possibly.... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 09:24:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FDORRM007824 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:24:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDLFd5003081 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:21:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDLC4g092472; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:21:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f56.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDLA4g092432 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:21:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:21:05 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:21:05 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:21:05 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2004 13:21:05.0590 (UTC) FILETIME=[953BFD60:01C46A6E] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >I heard that Viggo slept in his costume through the whole shoot. Is that >true? I like an actor who cares about his character's appearance that much >(and I'm not joking). I doubt it. They never shoot movies in order, and if they'd had to go back and shoot a scene early in the movie after he'd slept in the costume for a few months, it would have looked more worn than it should have been. Unless he had a spare (he probably had a few spares, but I'm not sure if they would have let him have one before the shoot was over). _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 09:25:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FDPeRM007831 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:25:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDNld5003242 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:23:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDNk4g093856; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:23:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDMK4g093045 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:22:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:21:31 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher without matching ''forpart''or underskirt To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF51@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher without matching ''forpart''or underskirt Thread-Index: AcRo+BPGZU4oZ/s9S1uey0eEmxC6fgBdg5hg content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > This is very nice, and interresting two. > To me this does not look like a wheel farthingale, more like > an oval one. To me it looks more like a huge bumroll with the skirt pinned into a tuck/ruffle around the edge before it drops to the hem. The top of the skirt isn't flat out to the drop-off, but domed. It looks oval because the back edge is hidden behind the dome of the sides/back of the bumroll. That'd be my take on it at least. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 09:31:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FDVXRM007906 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:31:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDTed5003590 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:29:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDTc4g097360; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:29:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDTa4g097321 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:29:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:28:08 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: [h-cost] trying to track down Three SCA ladies To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF52@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] trying to track down Three SCA ladies Thread-Index: AcRpAjAGZmT8PLjUT8mk87MVIICTnQBbO0HA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sorry to the non-SCA folk on the list, but I'm trying to track down/identify three SCA ladies (possibly hailing form CA) Are any of them on this list, or known to any on this list? (if so, please contact me off-list rather than wasting bandwidth on an off-topic subject) Lady Agatha of Tintagel, Lady Mssgyer of Clan Cearlon and Lady Johanna of Lincolnshire It's possible I know them but have no idea of the SCA names they go by. Thanks in advance Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 09:34:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FDYURM007940 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:34:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDWWd5003776 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:32:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDWT4g098905; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:32:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDWS4g098886 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:32:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bl6Lb-0001yI-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:32:27 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 06:32:29 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c46a70$2ce764a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF51@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6FDWS4g098886 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Bumroll or Farthingale? Was: Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher withoutmatching ''forpart''or underskirt X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is a good point. I still am having a hard time imaginging a bumroll, fabric combination which would give you that shape. (Not that a farthingale would give that shape either.). I'll have to fiddle with it. I wonder if I could get that look by using a large bumroll with a floppy, or less rigid plate (farthingale) on top. No sense in being ruled by the tryanny of the 'or'! >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Teddy >To me it looks more like a huge bumroll with the skirt pinned into a >tuck/ruffle around the edge before it drops to the hem. The top of the >skirt isn't flat out to the drop-off, but domed. It looks oval because >the back edge is hidden behind the dome of the sides/back of the >bumroll. > >That'd be my take on it at least. > >Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 09:37:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FDbIRM007963 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:37:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDYsd5003905 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:34:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDYr4g000364; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:34:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDXJ4g099270 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:33:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6FDXgC28736.; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:33:43 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:33:12 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:33:06 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood, was King Arthur Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> AlbertCat@aol.com 14/07/2004 19:46:25 >>>wrote: >But making a movie call "Robin Hood" and eliminating King John from >the story DOES make it an awful movie. ??? Surely King John doesn't appear in *all* versions of the Robin Hood legend? Not that I was terribly impressed by the film myself, but that seems an odd reason for condemning it. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 09:46:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FDkURM007994 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:46:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDifd5004521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:44:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDic4g005872; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:44:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FDiX4h005811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:44:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6FDgMtY002281 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:42:22 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F68A40.1050403@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:44:32 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] trying to track down Three SCA ladies References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF52@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF52@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO One place to try is "The Rolls Etherial" a database that SCA people can put themselves into http://jducoeur.org/Rolls/ Another is to post on rec.org.sca -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent "Trashy literature is about sex and violence; great literature is about love and death." _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 10:17:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FEHgRM008101 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:17:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEFqd5007068 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:15:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEFn4g024846; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:15:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEFj4g024772 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:15:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bl71T-0002ns-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:15:43 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] trying to track down Three SCA ladies Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 07:15:44 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c46a76$381e94f0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <40F68A40.1050403@thibault.org> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6FEFj4g024772 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Another is just a general web search. I would bet they live in the Barony of Calafia in Caid..(San Diego area). >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Cynthia Virtue >Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 6:45 AM >To: Historical Costume >Subject: Re: [h-cost] trying to track down Three SCA ladies > >One place to try is "The Rolls Etherial" a database that SCA people can >put themselves into http://jducoeur.org/Rolls/ > >Another is to post on rec.org.sca > >-- >Cynthia Virtue and/or >Cynthia du Pré Argent > >"Trashy literature is about sex and violence; great literature is about >love and death." >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 10:21:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FELtRM008113 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:21:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEJ2d5007343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:19:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEJ14g026900; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:19:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEGO4g025130 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:16:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fad.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.173]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2745E47FE4E for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:16:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003101c46a76$5063cee0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:16:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] european costume book X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Doreen Yarwoods book is very good to get inspired for and to find some ideas about each period, but for details it is very bad because she has made the drawings very freely and did not take any considerations to historical acuratesse. There is only one book wich is worse and that is Peacocks books. My cents Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 10:26:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FEQ8RM008132 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:26:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEODd5007794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:24:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEOA4g030418; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:24:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEO64g030374 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:24:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:22:54 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF57@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Portrait of Elizabeth Peake-contrasting stomacher Thread-Index: AcRpAjAGZmT8PLjUT8mk87MVIICTnQBdKpIA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Okay, I have a theory here. > > I'm seeing a recycled, formerly closed high-necked doublet-style bodice > here. It's been made fashionable again with the use of turned-back front > edges, which reveal an embroidered payre of bodies with a coordinating > embroidery added to the turnbacks. Opening it like this allows the bodice and its skirt to have the fashionable late-reign neckline. I'm guessing that the embroidery added to the bodice turned back fronts also serves the purpose of covering up the buttonholes and any wear from using them. > > Anyone have a copy of QEWU? Mine's at a friend's house so I > can't look for any possibly related items. Most of the "contrastign stomacher" pictures seem to show the same. I've long believed there was no such thing as the contrast stomacher, but what is interpreted as one is actually the front of the bodice on the kirtle/undergown worn beneath the open fronted doublet-bodice gown. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 10:37:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FEblRM008202 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:37:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEZfd5008730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:35:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEZY4g037857; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:35:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FEZU4g037784 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:35:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from colleen.mcdonald@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.205.144 ([204.127.205.144]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004071514352501600bf4pse>; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:35:25 +0000 Received: from [12.144.236.16] by 204.127.205.144; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:35:25 +0000 From: colleen.mcdonald@comcast.net To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:35:25 +0000 Message-Id: <071520041435.23600.40F6962D0002CE9000005C3022007348400B040E02010B0C03D2020A0A0404010C@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Y29sbGVlbi5tY2RvbmFsZEBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Dress in Italian Painting 1460-1500 by Birbari X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings all, I already have a copy, so I thought I would forward this on to the list. Colleen Matched: Dress in Italian Painting 1460-1500. by Birbari, Elizabeth. FIRST EDITION. HARDCOVER. John Murray. London. (1975) Photographs.. First Edition With Dustjacket FINE jacket. F/F. $249.95 Buy now at: http://www.alibris.com/search/detail.cfm?bid=8232843094 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 11:44:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FFi7RM008505 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:44:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FFaXfT014762 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:40:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FFWr4g081713; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:32:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FFWo4g081655 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:32:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:31:30 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF58@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Thread-Index: AcRpZ/z4CCH2Q13CTN+2j1lPgvK8RgBGGx3w content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > There is at least one Elizabethan era stomacher in existence (well, > there might be more, but this is the only one I've seen with my own > eyes) and it's in the V&A's textile collection. Unfortunately, I've > looked high and low for a picture online and have come up > empty-handed (my own photo happened to be erased from my digital > camera). I believe there's also a photo in Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe > Unlock'd, but I'm too lazy to go look it up and scan it. Anyhoo... > > This particular stomacher is linen, triangular shaped and either > blackworked or poly-chrome embroidered (can't for the life of me > remember right now). It has three or four tabs on either edge, which > are presumably for the purpose of attaching it to a bodice or stays > (probably with pins). It looks for all the world like later 18th c. > stomachers, except for the method of embellishment. I've never been fully convinced that it wasn't an 18th century stomacher that someone made(or had made) using an existing piece of old embroidery. We know 19th century clothes and costumes were sometimes made using old/antique textiles... why not 18th century ones too? Just a personal theory - no proof. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 12:19:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FGJPRM008733 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:19:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FGHTd5019481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:17:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FGHP4g016834; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:17:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from tin.wightman.on.ca (tin.wightman.ca [216.249.0.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FGHL4g016714 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:17:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lgsteph@wightman.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by tin.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1FB339AA for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d7k7b6 (unknown [142.46.141.52]) by tin.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with SMTP id 72DC533994 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001701c46a87$9f752400$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> From: "Five Rivers" To: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:20:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] new embroideries (OT?) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Not quite sure how this ties in with costuming, other than I'm working with textiles. I've uploaded to our website (URL in tagline) the two completed embroideries in the series Earth, Wind, Fire, Water on which I'm working. Thought some of you might be interested. The images aren't great. The digital camera with which I'm working definitely performs according with the price I paid. :-( But it at least gives an idea. Oh, you get there by clicking on Catalogue and then Fine Art. Wind is on the frame at the moment, and proving quite time consuming, worked on a linen ground with both filament and spun white silks, with white freshwater pearls and just a touch of gold bullion thread. Just a touch. The design for it comes from Odin's eight-legged horse he rode across the sky. I'm using a series of very textural stitches as well as raised work in order to emulate the feeling of both cirrus and cumulo-nimbus clouds. Water is ready to go on the frame as soon as I get Wind off. At the rate I work it's going to be late this year before I get to it. The design influence from it comes from the Norse belief rivers and streams came from a water dragon, so I have a flightless dragon spewing forth all manner of fishes which form quite the frothing, bouncing feeling as they arc through the design. It's on a teal silk charmeuse ground, to be embroidered in filament and spun silks all in greens and blues, with some gold paillettes and gold bullion work. I might introduce some silver to this. Not sure at this point. Oh yes, and likely some freshwater pearls. Will see what strikes me as I work. These things sort of evolve. Regards Lorina Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery supplies (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 12:33:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FGXHRM008800 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:33:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FGW0d5021074 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:32:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FGVu4g028717; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:31:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FGVq4g028633 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:31:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040715163152.KQRR27801.out008.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:31:52 -0500 Message-ID: <40F6B17C.7040300@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:31:56 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] viscose? References: <200407151347.i6FDl64h007251@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407151347.i6FDl64h007251@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:31:52 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO AnnBWass@aol.com writes: >Whose 1920s dress of rayon crepe is going to require a lot of ironing before >she can wear it this weekend. > Steam it! Rayon steams beautifully, and it's easier on the fibers. M. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 12:49:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FGn4RM008883 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:49:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FGl0d5022529 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:47:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FGkw4g040730; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:46:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f37.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.87]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FGkm4g040532 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:46:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:46:41 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:46:41 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:46:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2004 16:46:41.0466 (UTC) FILETIME=[4DFD49A0:01C46A8B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: AlbertCat@aol.com >...Sorry Tiffany, but some things are awful even if people like them. Art >is not >totally subjective and these long expensive epic films supposedly based on >history are not larks, like "Scream" or "Dude, Where's my Car?". It's >obvious >these films are going for more, and they fail on many levels. >You may not like, oh, say, Vermeer, but it is not a subjective judgment to >say Vermeer is better than a velvet Elvis. It simply is. >There are criteria for excellence plus all opinions are not equally valid. >And that's the way it is... Let's just overlook the whole "I don't know nothin' about art, but I know what I like" versus "True art can only be really appreciated by those who are educated enough to understand it" stuff for a moment, shall we? Since when are movies -supposed- to be "art"? I thought they were supposed to be entertainment. And like every other business, what sells - succeeds (or what can be made less expensively than the money that will be made back in Ticket/Video/DVD/Broadcast sales). In an ideal universe, sure, movies should have nothing to do with money, and people should be able to produce true art with no regard to whether people understood them or even if they were any good. The reality is though that SOMEONE has to pay for making the film, and generally speaking, they are going to want to get their money back, and maybe a bit more. I'm pretty sure that's the real world boundary governing the movie industry. And by that criteria, people liking it -does- mean it's good. If they like enough to see it more than once, that's even better. 'Art' doesn't enter the picture. Certainly, if the people who are making the movie want to do a really good job, and make a huge effort to get things "right", within the context of the money issue boundaries, that's always nice and should be encouraged. And certainly there are artistic aspects to trying to do a good job. But to claim the whole picture is "art", or should be, may be misunderstanding the whole role of money in the process. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 13:16:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FHGRRM008979 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:16:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHCad5025791 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:12:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHCU4g062029; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:12:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out009.verizon.net (out009pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHCJ4g061852 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:12:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out009.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040715171217.QJRR29216.out009.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:12:17 -0500 Message-ID: <009901c46a8e$e4d54960$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:12:22 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:12:17 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I just have to put my two cents in. This predicament of movies as entertainment v. art, is not completely limited to the motion picture industry. Take Thomas Kincaid (painter of cute little English cottages can be found at your local mall) for example. He is probably the most famous living artist, his works are sold at malls and shopping centers around the world. BUT, many fine art artists, don't consider his work art, they consider it merchandise, purely for entertainment. On the other side of the scale, there are a few hundred modern abstract artists, that most people wouldn't consider art at all (blank canvasses and all). My point is (if I have one) is some things are done for the masses (First Knight), some things are done for a niche (The 6 Wives of Henry XII) and some are done for the artists themselves. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Carlson" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:46 AM Subject: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur > >From: AlbertCat@aol.com > >...Sorry Tiffany, but some things are awful even if people like them. Art > >is not > >totally subjective and these long expensive epic films supposedly based on > >history are not larks, like "Scream" or "Dude, Where's my Car?". It's > >obvious > >these films are going for more, and they fail on many levels. > >You may not like, oh, say, Vermeer, but it is not a subjective judgment to > >say Vermeer is better than a velvet Elvis. It simply is. > >There are criteria for excellence plus all opinions are not equally valid. > >And that's the way it is... > > Let's just overlook the whole "I don't know nothin' about art, but I know > what I like" versus "True art can only be really appreciated by those who > are educated enough to understand it" stuff for a moment, shall we? > > Since when are movies -supposed- to be "art"? I thought they were supposed > to be entertainment. And like every other business, what sells - succeeds > (or what can be made less expensively than the money that will be made back > in Ticket/Video/DVD/Broadcast sales). > > In an ideal universe, sure, movies should have nothing to do with money, and > people should be able to produce true art with no regard to whether people > understood them or even if they were any good. The reality is though that > SOMEONE has to pay for making the film, and generally speaking, they are > going to want to get their money back, and maybe a bit more. > > I'm pretty sure that's the real world boundary governing the movie industry. > And by that criteria, people liking it -does- mean it's good. If they > like enough to see it more than once, that's even better. 'Art' doesn't > enter the picture. > > Certainly, if the people who are making the movie want to do a really good > job, and make a huge effort to get things "right", within the context of the > money issue boundaries, that's always nice and should be encouraged. And > certainly there are artistic aspects to trying to do a good job. > > But to claim the whole picture is "art", or should be, may be > misunderstanding the whole role of money in the process. > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in > Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 13:48:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FHmnRM009112 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:48:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHj0d5029318 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:45:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHin4g088322; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:44:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHij4g088191 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:44:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1216745 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:44:39 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:44:37 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <009901c46a8e$e4d54960$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I agree with Brandy. Thomas Kincaid has a huge following; I hate it and think it's drivel but thousands of people pay lots of money for his paintings. In the early-mid 1960s, we had Kean, the man (or his wife the debate goes on) who painted the pictures of the children with the drawn faces and huge eyes. The same group of people thought he was high art; he was merchandised just like Kincaid. Now they're relegated to the corner where many keep paintings on velvet of dogs playing poker. And then there's Peter Max and Andy Warhol from the 1960s-ealky 70s - I loved the art being of that generation, and my father a commercial artist did too. My more straight-laced mother thought they were both dreadful and would never last. Warhol is still looked upon as an innovator, although Peter Max seems to have been put in the nostalgic camp with tie-dyed art as much as I loved his color vision. Movies can be the same way. "Its a Wonderful Life" was a bomb when it opened; yet it's one of the most watched seasonal movies in the country now and has been for years. Who knows what First Knight may become in 20 years (didn't see it so I can't comment). It might be the height of camp by then. My point is that for anything - movies, art, music, even history - we won't know until we're past this part of the history. I never knew I was a part of history while living in San Francisco in the 1960-70s with the summer of love and the music that came from San Francisco and the turmoil of Berkeley student riots. Now I look back on it and there are dozens of books written about it. Who knew? Bringing it back to historical clothing: those macrame necklaces I made for myself in 1970-71 are the height of fashion now as my daughters wear them to school. All their friends want them. I kept them only because I worked out the designs myself rather than following a design book; now they're fashionable again. Who knew? LynnD On 7/15/04 10:12 AM, "Brandy Deming" wrote: > I just have to put my two cents in. > > This predicament of movies as entertainment v. art, is not completely > limited to the motion picture industry. > > Take Thomas Kincaid (painter of cute little English cottages can be found at > your local mall) for example. He is probably the most famous living artist, > his works are sold at malls and shopping centers around the world. BUT, many > fine art artists, don't consider his work art, they consider it merchandise, > purely for entertainment. > On the other side of the scale, there are a few hundred modern abstract > artists, that most people wouldn't consider art at all (blank canvasses and > all). > > My point is (if I have one) is some things are done for the masses (First > Knight), some things are done for a niche (The 6 Wives of Henry XII) and > some are done for the artists themselves. > > B > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc Carlson" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:46 AM > Subject: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur > > >>> From: AlbertCat@aol.com >>> ...Sorry Tiffany, but some things are awful even if people like them. Art >>> is not >>> totally subjective and these long expensive epic films supposedly based > on >>> history are not larks, like "Scream" or "Dude, Where's my Car?". It's >>> obvious >>> these films are going for more, and they fail on many levels. >>> You may not like, oh, say, Vermeer, but it is not a subjective judgment > to >>> say Vermeer is better than a velvet Elvis. It simply is. >>> There are criteria for excellence plus all opinions are not equally > valid. >>> And that's the way it is... >> >> Let's just overlook the whole "I don't know nothin' about art, but I know >> what I like" versus "True art can only be really appreciated by those who >> are educated enough to understand it" stuff for a moment, shall we? >> >> Since when are movies -supposed- to be "art"? I thought they were > supposed >> to be entertainment. And like every other business, what sells - > succeeds >> (or what can be made less expensively than the money that will be made > back >> in Ticket/Video/DVD/Broadcast sales). >> >> In an ideal universe, sure, movies should have nothing to do with money, > and >> people should be able to produce true art with no regard to whether people >> understood them or even if they were any good. The reality is though that >> SOMEONE has to pay for making the film, and generally speaking, they are >> going to want to get their money back, and maybe a bit more. >> >> I'm pretty sure that's the real world boundary governing the movie > industry. >> And by that criteria, people liking it -does- mean it's good. If they >> like enough to see it more than once, that's even better. 'Art' doesn't >> enter the picture. >> >> Certainly, if the people who are making the movie want to do a really good >> job, and make a huge effort to get things "right", within the context of > the >> money issue boundaries, that's always nice and should be encouraged. And >> certainly there are artistic aspects to trying to do a good job. >> >> But to claim the whole picture is "art", or should be, may be >> misunderstanding the whole role of money in the process. >> >> Marc >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in >> Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 13:51:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FHpfRM009127 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:51:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHmsd5029742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:48:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHmq4g091400; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:48:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHml4g091291 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:48:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.d6.f4f3f76 (3956) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:48:35 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:48:35 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 12:47:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, marccarlson20@hotmail.com writes: > Since when are movies -supposed- to be "art"? I thought they were supposed > > to be entertainment. And like every other business, what sells - succeeds > (or what can be made less expensively than the money that will be made back > in Ticket/Video/DVD/Broadcast sales). > > In an ideal universe, sure, movies should have nothing to do with money, and > > This is not what I'm talking about at all. What sells succeeds at selling....and that's all you can deduce from that. Who sells more? Brittany Spears and Bjork or Bach and Stravinsky? Which is better? [not sure why you think art and entertainment are mutually exclusive] Do you think when Bach was writing his music he was doing it for art, or to support his family? [Why is that mutually exclusive?] Was Bach popular during his lifetime? And, BTW, some films have been art from before sound. Why is acknowledging excellence and comparing it to mediocrity not PC and considered snobby? Who's afraid of intellect? Why are people not supposed to elevate and improve their taste? Why can't people insist on quality in their lives? Just asking. The words genius, art, and brilliant are way overused these days. They mean almost nothing now. Well, as long as nobody feels bad...... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 13:54:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FHsgRM009144 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:54:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHqJd5000152 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:52:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHqG4g094004; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:52:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHqD4g093977 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:52:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040715175212.PNKW24784.out014.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:52:12 -0500 Message-ID: <00ee01c46a94$78871800$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:52:17 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:52:12 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This just proves an old point of mine. If you stay the same long enough, eventually you will come into style :) LMAO, B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Downward" To: "h costume" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:44 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur > I agree with Brandy. > > Thomas Kincaid has a huge following; I hate it and think it's drivel but > thousands of people pay lots of money for his paintings. In the early-mid > 1960s, we had Kean, the man (or his wife the debate goes on) who painted the > pictures of the children with the drawn faces and huge eyes. The same group > of people thought he was high art; he was merchandised just like Kincaid. > Now they're relegated to the corner where many keep paintings on velvet of > dogs playing poker. And then there's Peter Max and Andy Warhol from the > 1960s-ealky 70s - I loved the art being of that generation, and my father a > commercial artist did too. My more straight-laced mother thought they were > both dreadful and would never last. Warhol is still looked upon as an > innovator, although Peter Max seems to have been put in the nostalgic camp > with tie-dyed art as much as I loved his color vision. > > Movies can be the same way. "Its a Wonderful Life" was a bomb when it > opened; yet it's one of the most watched seasonal movies in the country now > and has been for years. Who knows what First Knight may become in 20 years > (didn't see it so I can't comment). It might be the height of camp by then. > > My point is that for anything - movies, art, music, even history - we won't > know until we're past this part of the history. I never knew I was a part of > history while living in San Francisco in the 1960-70s with the summer of > love and the music that came from San Francisco and the turmoil of Berkeley > student riots. Now I look back on it and there are dozens of books written > about it. Who knew? > > Bringing it back to historical clothing: those macrame necklaces I made for > myself in 1970-71 are the height of fashion now as my daughters wear them to > school. All their friends want them. I kept them only because I worked out > the designs myself rather than following a design book; now they're > fashionable again. > > Who knew? > > LynnD > > On 7/15/04 10:12 AM, "Brandy Deming" wrote: > > > I just have to put my two cents in. > > > > This predicament of movies as entertainment v. art, is not completely > > limited to the motion picture industry. > > > > Take Thomas Kincaid (painter of cute little English cottages can be found at > > your local mall) for example. He is probably the most famous living artist, > > his works are sold at malls and shopping centers around the world. BUT, many > > fine art artists, don't consider his work art, they consider it merchandise, > > purely for entertainment. > > On the other side of the scale, there are a few hundred modern abstract > > artists, that most people wouldn't consider art at all (blank canvasses and > > all). > > > > My point is (if I have one) is some things are done for the masses (First > > Knight), some things are done for a niche (The 6 Wives of Henry XII) and > > some are done for the artists themselves. > > > > B > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Marc Carlson" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:46 AM > > Subject: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur > > > > > >>> From: AlbertCat@aol.com > >>> ...Sorry Tiffany, but some things are awful even if people like them. Art > >>> is not > >>> totally subjective and these long expensive epic films supposedly based > > on > >>> history are not larks, like "Scream" or "Dude, Where's my Car?". It's > >>> obvious > >>> these films are going for more, and they fail on many levels. > >>> You may not like, oh, say, Vermeer, but it is not a subjective judgment > > to > >>> say Vermeer is better than a velvet Elvis. It simply is. > >>> There are criteria for excellence plus all opinions are not equally > > valid. > >>> And that's the way it is... > >> > >> Let's just overlook the whole "I don't know nothin' about art, but I know > >> what I like" versus "True art can only be really appreciated by those who > >> are educated enough to understand it" stuff for a moment, shall we? > >> > >> Since when are movies -supposed- to be "art"? I thought they were > > supposed > >> to be entertainment. And like every other business, what sells - > > succeeds > >> (or what can be made less expensively than the money that will be made > > back > >> in Ticket/Video/DVD/Broadcast sales). > >> > >> In an ideal universe, sure, movies should have nothing to do with money, > > and > >> people should be able to produce true art with no regard to whether people > >> understood them or even if they were any good. The reality is though that > >> SOMEONE has to pay for making the film, and generally speaking, they are > >> going to want to get their money back, and maybe a bit more. > >> > >> I'm pretty sure that's the real world boundary governing the movie > > industry. > >> And by that criteria, people liking it -does- mean it's good. If they > >> like enough to see it more than once, that's even better. 'Art' doesn't > >> enter the picture. > >> > >> Certainly, if the people who are making the movie want to do a really good > >> job, and make a huge effort to get things "right", within the context of > > the > >> money issue boundaries, that's always nice and should be encouraged. And > >> certainly there are artistic aspects to trying to do a good job. > >> > >> But to claim the whole picture is "art", or should be, may be > >> misunderstanding the whole role of money in the process. > >> > >> Marc > >> > >> _________________________________________________________________ > >> Get tips for maintaining your PC, notebook accessories and reviews in > >> Technology 101. http://special.msn.com/tech/technology101.armx > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> h-costume mailing list > >> h-costume@mail.indra.com > >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:01:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FI1VRM009292 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:01:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHtTd5000571 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:55:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHtS4g096488; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:55:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (imo-m21.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHsN4g095579 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:54:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1e9.251c5bc4 (3956) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:54:12 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1e9.251c5bc4.2e281ec4@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:54:12 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 1:46:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, LDownward@chori.org writes: > My point is that for anything - movies, art, music, even history - we won't > know until we're past this part of the history. You didn't know that paintings of dogs playing poker were not art????? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:03:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FI3JRM009339 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:03:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FI0dd5001220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:00:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FI0a4g001029; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:00:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out009.verizon.net (out009pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FHwX4g099072 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:58:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out009.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040715175831.QXNR29216.out009.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:58:31 -0500 Message-ID: <010101c46a95$5a967e20$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:58:36 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:58:31 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur > In a message dated 7/15/2004 12:47:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, > marccarlson20@hotmail.com writes: > > > Since when are movies -supposed- to be "art"? I thought they were supposed > > > > to be entertainment. And like every other business, what sells - succeeds > > (or what can be made less expensively than the money that will be made back > > in Ticket/Video/DVD/Broadcast sales). > > > > In an ideal universe, sure, movies should have nothing to do with money, and > > > > > > This is not what I'm talking about at all. > > What sells succeeds at selling....and that's all you can deduce from that. > > Who sells more? Brittany Spears and Bjork or Bach and Stravinsky? Which is > better? [not sure why you think art and entertainment are mutually exclusive] Do > you think when Bach was writing his music he was doing it for art, or to > support his family? [Why is that mutually exclusive?] Was Bach popular during his > lifetime? > > And, BTW, some films have been art from before sound. > > Why is acknowledging excellence and comparing it to mediocrity not PC and > considered snobby? Who's afraid of intellect? Why are people not supposed to > elevate and improve their taste? Why can't people insist on quality in their > lives? > That is up to individuals. If there weren't people with bad taste, how would we know if ours is any good? > Just asking. > > The words genius, art, and brilliant are way overused these days. They mean > almost nothing now. Only one thing comes to mind: "One man's fool is another man's king" > > Well, as long as nobody feels bad...... > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:10:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIAHRM009495 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:10:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FI6Nd5001997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:06:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FI6J4g006130; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:06:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FI6G4g005993 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:06:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1216854 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:06:09 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:06:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1e9.251c5bc4.2e281ec4@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Only in very rarified circles -- and RV parks. LynnD PS - Does anyone else remember those paintings or were they only an East Coast/West Coast fashion? On 7/15/04 10:54 AM, "AlbertCat@aol.com" wrote: > In a message dated 7/15/2004 1:46:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, > LDownward@chori.org writes: > >> My point is that for anything - movies, art, music, even history - we won't >> know until we're past this part of the history. > > You didn't know that paintings of dogs playing poker were not art????? > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:27:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIRDRM009747 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:27:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIPAd5003938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:25:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIP74g021527; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:25:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from silver.wightman.on.ca (silver.wightman.ca [216.249.0.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIOf4g021171 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:24:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lgsteph@wightman.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by silver.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36005B4C9 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from silver.wightman.on.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (silver.wightman.on.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24835-02 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d7k7b6 (unknown [142.46.141.52]) by silver.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with SMTP id C257D5B4B7 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003c01c46a99$6b3cbe20$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:27:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wightman.ca X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] New embrodieries (OT?) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Not quite sure how this ties in with costuming, other than I'm working with textiles. I've uploaded to our website (URL in tagline) the two completed embroideries in the series Earth, Wind, Fire, Water on which I'm working. Thought some of you might be interested. The images aren't great. The digital camera with which I'm working definitely performs according with the price I paid. :-( But it at least gives an idea. Oh, you get there by clicking on Catalogue and then Fine Art. Wind is on the frame at the moment, and proving quite time consuming, worked on a linen ground with both filament and spun white silks, with white freshwater pearls and just a touch of gold bullion thread. Just a touch. The design for it comes from Odin's eight-legged horse he rode across the sky. I'm using a series of very textural stitches as well as raised work in order to emulate the feeling of both cirrus and cumulo-nimbus clouds. Water is ready to go on the frame as soon as I get Wind off. At the rate I work it's going to be late this year before I get to it. The design influence from it comes from the Norse belief rivers and streams came from a water dragon, so I have a flightless dragon spewing forth all manner of fishes which form quite the frothing, bouncing feeling as they arc through the design. It's on a teal silk charmeuse ground, to be embroidered in filament and spun silks all in greens and blues, with some gold paillettes and gold bullion work. I might introduce some silver to this. Not sure at this point. Oh yes, and likely some freshwater pearls. Will see what strikes me as I work. These things sort of evolve. Regards Lorina Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery supplies (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:31:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIVMRM009828 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:31:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIURd5004441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:30:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIUO4g025572; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:30:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from indirectobject.com (066-241-084-045.bus.ashlandfiber.net [66.241.84.45]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIQg4g022811 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:26:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rreed@indirectobject.com) Message-Id: <200407151826.i6FIQg4g022811@net.indra.com> Received: from synergy ([192.168.1.1]) by indirectobject.com (WWW [192.168.1.200]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.5.R) with ESMTP id 55-md50000000011.tmp for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:25:38 -0700 From: To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:25:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <009901c46a8e$e4d54960$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcRqj0tVMzbf14q1S7avMR3kVoqgPQACXKdA X-Spam-Processed: WWW, Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:25:38 -0700 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.1.1 X-Return-Path: rreed@indirectobject.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: h-costume@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Gee, there was a Henry XII? Just kidding... >My point is (if I have one) is some things are done for the masses (First Knight), some things are done for a niche (The 6 Wives of Henry XII) and some are done for the artists themselves. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:32:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIWiRM009859 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:32:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIU4d5004362 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:30:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIT34g024507; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:29:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIPF4g021627 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:25:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6FIur5c005807 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:56:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6FIurAR005806 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:56:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407151856.i6FIurAR005806@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] viscose? In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Viscose is a rayon, but I suspect not all rayons are made by a viscose > process. see http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/rayon.htm I found this page ... http://www.fabrics.net/amyrayon.asp Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:39:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIdVRM009969 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:39:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIaTd5005072 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:36:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIaR4g030094; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:36:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIU04g025017 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:30:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.156.39d848a0 (3956) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:29:48 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <156.39d848a0.2e28271c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:29:48 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 2:01:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > If there weren't people with bad taste, how would > we know if ours is any good? > Indeed. You should see the looks I get from my NYC "music snob" friends when I say I like Philip Glass. But I don't mind that we disagree and neither do they. We aren't afraid to talk about why and why not we like things. And it still doesn't make all art and entertainment values equal and all opinions worthwhile. It also doesn't mean big sellers are of superior quality. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:42:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIgIRM010012 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:42:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIdxd5005454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:40:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIdx4g032736; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:39:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIcI4g031426 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:38:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fad.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.173]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9AE1D5EE011 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi. I have compleated the boned bodice for the weddingdress i make, and i couldnt resist in draping quickly the skirt to the waist. Pictures here: http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia Xenias wedding is 24.th of july. The skirt is supported on a real reproduktion 18th century pannier. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:43:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIh6RM010019 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:43:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIeHd5005498 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:40:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIeG4g032974; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:40:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIdj4g032559 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:39:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fad.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.173]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D7B926281A for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:39:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001301c46a9b$2b8b6f90$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003c01c46a99$6b3cbe20$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New embrodieries (OT?) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:40:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear Lorina, Would really like to se your embroideries, but i could not find it on your website. Would you please send the direct url to the embroideries? Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:27 PM Subject: [h-cost] New embrodieries (OT?) > Not quite sure how this ties in with costuming, other than I'm working > with textiles. I've uploaded to our website (URL in tagline) the two > completed embroideries in the series Earth, Wind, Fire, Water on which I'm > working. Thought some of you might be interested. The images aren't great. > The digital camera with which I'm working definitely performs according with > the price I paid. > :-( But it at least gives an idea. Oh, you get there by clicking on > Catalogue and then Fine Art. > > Wind is on the frame at the moment, and proving quite time consuming, > worked on a linen ground with both filament and spun white silks, with white > freshwater pearls and just a touch of gold bullion thread. Just a touch. The > design for it comes from Odin's eight-legged horse he rode across the sky. > I'm using a series of very textural stitches as well as raised work in order > to emulate the feeling of both cirrus and cumulo-nimbus clouds. > > Water is ready to go on the frame as soon as I get Wind off. At the rate > I work it's going to be late this year before I get to it. The design > influence from it comes from the Norse belief rivers and streams came from a > water dragon, so I have a flightless dragon spewing forth all manner of > fishes which form quite the frothing, bouncing feeling as they arc through > the design. It's on a teal silk charmeuse ground, to be embroidered in > filament and spun silks all in greens and blues, with some gold paillettes > and gold bullion work. I might introduce some silver to this. Not sure at > this point. Oh yes, and likely some freshwater pearls. Will see what strikes > me as I work. These things sort of evolve. > > Regards > Lorina > Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage > fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery > supplies > (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:52:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIqtRM010053 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:52:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIotd5007615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:50:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIor4g041546; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:50:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from myway.com (nn8.excitenetwork.com [207.159.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIl84g038127 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:47:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from emmajean@myway.com) Received: by mprdmxin.myway.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 49D7C3994; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:46:58 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Received: from [206.45.178.64] by mprdmailfe2.nwk.myway.com via HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:46:58 EST X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = d8948f7989ff2d87af6c6d4d1af7be4b From: "Wendy" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: emmajean@myway.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040715184658.49D7C3994@mprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:46:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I recall a child-minder for a toddler/preschooler in one of the > Stratford-on-Avon houses; it was a pole in the floor with a pivot, to > which you attached the child so it wouldn't fall into the fire. Seems > like a good idea to me! They said it was original, or a repro, I dont' > recall which. The simpler version for outdoor being a stake or peg banged into the ground with a rope tied to it, the other end of the rope being tied around the child to prevent them form wandering off. We're contemplating one for our god-daughter for use on re-enactment sites when she gets to the toddling stage... probably before the summer is out. Teddy We did this with our son when he 18 months old with a leather belt around his waist. We thought it was great, although in his opinion all the best stuff in the world was just out of his reach. Wendy www.hecate.ca/emma/ _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:54:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIs4RM010061 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:54:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIkid5006344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:46:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIkg4g037822; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:46:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIfH4g033680 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:41:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fad.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.173]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CC51B47FE3B for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:41:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001b01c46a9b$61a9ce50$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <156.39d848a0.2e28271c@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:41:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I love Phillip Glass' music also, wonderfull. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur > In a message dated 7/15/2004 2:01:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > > > If there weren't people with bad taste, how would > > we know if ours is any good? > > > > Indeed. You should see the looks I get from my NYC "music snob" friends when > I say I like Philip Glass. But I don't mind that we disagree and neither do > they. We aren't afraid to talk about why and why not we like things. > > And it still doesn't make all art and entertainment values equal and all > opinions worthwhile. It also doesn't mean big sellers are of superior quality. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 14:54:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FIsvRM010068 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:54:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIpDd5007661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:51:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIpD4g041802; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:51:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIlp4g038881 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:47:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6FJJT5c006043 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:19:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6FJJT7r006042 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:19:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407151919.i6FJJT7r006042@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book In-Reply-To: <200407150221.i6F2L70V098768@sabre.goldsword.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > On page 97, person # 403 c.1495 England. Her dress is > > very unusual and I'd like to see the original painting > > the illustrator used to draw this lady. In the notes > > on the illustrations section of the book it says > > "Painting. Fur lined gown buttoned up to waist at > > rear...etc" > > I've seen this in several Flemish rather than English paintings. > I don't know if I have the "exact" painting that this is from or > not -- all my images are on the other computer (the thumbnails ...) > I'll see what I can find and post for you later (maybe tomorrow) this is the painting I was thinking of. It is Herodias by Juan de Flandes (decidedly *not* English) there's also this one where she has it up in the back *and* front* and this one from the Unicorn Tapestries -- I think this one is smell Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:00:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FJ0TRM010092 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:00:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIwPd5008404 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:58:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIwK4g047129; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:58:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIr24g043179 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:53:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6FJOc5c006104 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:24:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6FJOc19006103 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:24:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407151924.i6FJOc19006103@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407150221.i6F2L70V098768@sabre.goldsword.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Picture ID X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I bought me a copy of "A History of Privale Live: Revelations of the Medieval World" last night. (I know, I'm probably behind the curve ...) My question is about the image on the cover. The authors identify all of the other images as to source, but *not* (so far as I can find) this one. I'm intrigued by the surplice-front bodices on the two women in the background. I had seen this style of bodice in other European Illuminations (not scanned yet), and from this painting by Carpaccio but I assumed that after hearing Robin lecture that that was part of what told you that these women were "special" or "foreign." After finding it in now pictures of what are "obviously" Europeans, I'm not so sure. Does anybody know where the image on the front of this book is from? (It's due to be scanned this afternoon .....) thanks, Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:01:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FJ1QRM010097 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:01:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIwfd5008431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:58:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIwd4g047386; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:58:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FIv64h046183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:57:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6FIsstY003557 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:54:54 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F6D380.10500@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:57:04 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children References: <20040715184658.49D7C3994@mprdmxin.myway.com> In-Reply-To: <20040715184658.49D7C3994@mprdmxin.myway.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wendy wrote: > We did this with our son when he 18 months old with a leather belt around his waist. We thought it was great, although in his opinion all the best stuff in the world was just out of his reach. It always is! We have harnesses for the twins which we got from a catalog, but I've seen versions in pictures from various pictures back to the Renaissance. Generally the kid is more comfy if the belt goes around the chest, but waist would also work. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent I read all these British boys' adventure yarns without ever noticing that they weren't addressed to me. -- Lois McMaster Bujold _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:11:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FJBbRM010168 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:11:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJ9ed5009537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:09:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJ9a4g056186; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:09:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJ9Y4g056147 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:09:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6FJfC5c006314 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:41:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6FJfBvG006313 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:41:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407151941.i6FJfBvG006313@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] viscose? In-Reply-To: <001c01c46a36$1b8b2aa0$b61b51cf@bc.hsia.telus.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Viscose is sometimes 100% rayon but I have seen lots of ads for natural Vicose and this description of a outfit suggests it is a cotton sometimes. > rayon is a natural fiber -- it is made from cellulose. It is not natural in that the process to produce it is a man-made (aka chemical) one as opposed to cleaning cotton fruits or retting flax stems. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:32:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FJW1RM010237 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:32:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJTMd5011389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:29:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJTJ4g071321; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:29:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJTB4g071216 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:29:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A547627206 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:29:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p101.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.103]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A576D4B0 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:29:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] European costume book Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:29:10 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <003101c46a76$5063cee0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- Doreen Yarwoods book is very good to get inspired for and to find some ideas about each period, but for details it is very bad because she has made the drawings very freely and did not take any considerations to historical acuratesse. There is only one book wich is worse and that is Peacocks books. My cents Bjarne ~~~~~~ I have her book, "The encyclopedia of World costume." The drawings are somewhat crude in their design like someone drawing rough drafts before drawing the final design. De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:36:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FJaBRM010341 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:36:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJZAd5011956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:35:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJZ44g076010; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:35:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJYv4g075893 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:34:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06559 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:39:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:39:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Picture ID In-Reply-To: <200407151924.i6FJOc19006103@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > I'm intrigued by the surplice-front bodices on the two women in the > background. I had seen this style of bodice in other European > Illuminations (not scanned yet), and from this painting by Carpaccio > > > but I assumed that after hearing Robin lecture that that was part of > what told you that these women were "special" or "foreign." After > finding it in now pictures of what are "obviously" Europeans, I'm not > so sure. Not sure which image you're talking about (the book isn't handy) but I'm certain I've seen a slanted overlapping front opening on reasonably reliable figures of noblewomen in Flemish art from the late 15th century, including paintings, manuscripts, and tapestries. I don't believe I called attention to that style of opening in the lectures you heard, as I understand it to be an element of normal fashionable dress. However, it's quite likely that some of the images of saints I showed (in which I would have been calling attention to other elements of the dress that were *not* typically found in normal fashion) happened to have that sort of opening. Just because something's on a saint or foreigner doesn't automatically mean it's not real -- obviously there will be some "real" elements of dress mixed in with "unreal" elements. It does mean you need to be suspicious, and seek to verify against non-allegorical/historical/foreign figures. If an element shows up *only* on saints/foreigners, that's when you can point to it and say "this is probably visual code." --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:41:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FJfTRM010469 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:41:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJdPd5012515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:39:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJdN4g079499; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:39:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJdG4g079423 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:39:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2381527227 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:39:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p101.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.103]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 002CBD4AF for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:39:13 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Aragorn Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:39:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF4E@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- > the hair was a wig or hair pieces according to one of the > LOTR special I watched. And Jackson filmed all three movies at once, the > beard was stayed the same in all three. I'm sorry, but it was carefully maintained as the same level for all three films (presumablyu for continuity purposes) but it would hav ehad to have been trimmed daily to maintain that horrible unkempt/not-shaved-recently look instead of developing into a full beard. Teddy ~~~~~~~ The hair and the beard needed to stay the same through out because they would film scenes out of order. One day they are filming Act 2, scene 3 from FotR and when they wrap up, they are filming Act 4, scene 1 from RotK. My husband made a quip about, "How come all through the movie Aragon doesn't wear plate armour into battle but wears it for his coronation?" I know that they were trying to copy a picture of the crowning of Aragon. De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:46:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FJkPRM010491 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:46:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJiNd5013059 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:44:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJiL4g083694; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:44:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web50403.mail.yahoo.com (web50403.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.68]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6FJhc4g083002 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:43:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040715194331.14448.qmail@web50403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.82.36.102] by web50403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:43:31 PDT Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:43:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" Subject: Re: [h-cost] Some medieval prices... To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Marc, And the one helping her SO do research for his Sergeantry Trials goes "whoo hoo!" Eoghan has to be able to answer questions about all sorts of things pertaining to his time period and culture for this event next month, and I'm planning on it for next year, so this is going to help a lot. Angharad (for those not in the SCA, Sergeant's Trials is something a person may participate in to show that they are well-versed in knowledge particular to their chosen persona. He is going for Sergeant, so combat will be tested, I'm going to try for Courtier with Arts & Sciences, so I have to have 2 arts/science projects (as well as be able to teach those arts/sciences) and a service project to his 3 combat styles. You need to be knowledgeable in persona development, marshalling, SCA heraldry (terms as well as being able to blazon and/or identify a large number of devices), know at least 2 games, 2 dances, knowledge of persona's geography as well as local SCA geography, practical and domestic sciences, be dressed appropriately to your time period and culture, be able to entertain the court with a song, story, poem or so forth, and so on. It's not quite as hard-core as the Golden Swan competition that has been discussed (which I want to do eventually), but it can be pretty intense.) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 15:50:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FJoMRM010503 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:50:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJm1d5013423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:48:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJlx4g086654; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:48:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (IDENT:JNOcR1raGR6MYlXSKp+d8RUnbHDY84Wa@isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJiv4g084146 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:44:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.181] (p21.3c04.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.181]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6FJiVP10620 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:44:31 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) In-Reply-To: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> References: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:47:48 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Gorgeous! On Jul 15, 2004, at 12:38 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Hi. > I have compleated the boned bodice for the weddingdress i make, and i > couldnt resist in draping quickly the skirt to the waist. > Pictures here: > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Xenias wedding is 24.th of july. > The skirt is supported on a real reproduktion 18th century pannier. > > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:01:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FK1FRM010559 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:01:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FK0Id5015160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:00:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJxP4g096124; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:59:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from incoming.SIGENETICS.com ([209.172.110.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJwK4g095181 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:58:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sbuchler@silicongenetics.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:58:09 -0700 Message-ID: <0D3431E0FD777844A4ED9507E4D698D90CBCE5@incoming.sigenetics.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 530 Thread-Index: AcRqorsSVr51oAUqR2uJsTXw+qH6PQAAwFnQ From: "Sunny Buchler" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6FJwK4g095181 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Victorian fabric question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Does anyone know what silk faille was in 1872? I just got a museum catalogue (_With Grace and Favour_) that lists a dress being made of that fabric, but in the picture it looks like a modern tabby-weave silk taffeta. I'm wondering how accurate that impression is -- Does anyone know? Thanks, -sunny _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:06:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FK6kRM010602 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:06:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FK4Qd5015730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:04:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FK4Q4g000772; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:04:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from gold.wightman.on.ca (gold.wightman.ca [216.249.0.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FK3c4g099957 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:03:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lgsteph@wightman.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gold.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6BBB47716 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d7k7b6 (unknown [142.46.141.52]) by gold.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with SMTP id 49ED347714 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000c01c46aa7$3e8e1c80$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" References: <200407151932.i6FJWH4h073711@net.indra.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:06:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 530 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Bjarne, Sorry about that: Here's the direct URL: http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_33.html Regards Lorina Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery supplies (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:07:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FK78RM010608 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:07:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FK4bd5015762 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:04:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FK4a4g000932; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:04:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FJxV4g096207 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:59:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7464427266 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:59:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p101.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.103]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 285DAD4B0 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:59:26 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:59:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO -----Original Message----- >I heard that Viggo slept in his costume through the whole shoot. Is that >true? I like an actor who cares about his character's appearance that much >(and I'm not joking). I doubt it. They never shoot movies in order, and if they'd had to go back and shoot a scene early in the movie after he'd slept in the costume for a few months, it would have looked more worn than it should have been. Unless he had a spare (he probably had a few spares, but I'm not sure if they would have let him have one before the shoot was over). ~~~~ I do not know if he slept in his costume but he did help the costume designer design it and he repaired the leather sections himself. He was very much into the character. If you have FotR Special edition DVD it talks about him and his Ranger costume. In TTTs Special DVD, you learn that when he kicks the helmet and screams he actually broke his toe but worked it into the scene. They thought he was method acting with the scream. So in the running scene which was filmed after the pier scene, you have three injured actors running. A broken toe (Aragorn), broken ribs (Legolas) and I think a knee injury (Gimli). De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:13:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKDdRM010641 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:13:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKC6d5016795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:12:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKC54g007121; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:12:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FK9i4g005110 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:09:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fad.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.173]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 477895EE075 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:09:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002301c46aa7$b002e940$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407151932.i6FJWH4h073711@net.indra.com> <000c01c46aa7$3e8e1c80$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 530 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:09:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello, Thanks for the help. This is beautifull work you have made, i especially love the first one : "Earth" with the freshwaterpearls. Thanks for letting me have a look! Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 530 > Hi, Bjarne, > > Sorry about that: Here's the direct URL: > http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_33.html > > Regards > Lorina > Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage > fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery > supplies > (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:13:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKDiRM010645 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:13:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKBpd5016745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:11:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKBn4g006913; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:11:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FK7x4g003693 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:07:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040715200758.YLJ1551.out004.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:07:58 -0500 Message-ID: <014001c46aa7$708d07f0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407151826.i6FIQg4g022811@net.indra.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:08:04 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:07:58 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I guess I roman numeral impaired.. VIII :) hopefully. B ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 11:25 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur > Gee, there was a Henry XII? Just kidding... > > > >My point is (if I have one) is some things are done for the masses (First > Knight), some things are done for a niche (The 6 Wives of Henry XII) and > some are done for the artists themselves. > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:14:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKErRM010659 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:14:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKCNd5016839 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:12:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKCM4g007306; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:12:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKAr4g006175 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:10:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6FKgV5c007136 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:42:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6FKgU9J007135 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:42:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407152042.i6FKgU9J007135@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children In-Reply-To: <40F6D380.10500@thibault.org> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Wendy wrote: > > We did this with our son when he 18 months old with a leather belt around his waist. We thought it was great, although in his opinion all the best stuff in the world was just out of his reach. > > It always is! > > We have harnesses for the twins which we got from a catalog, but I've > seen versions in pictures from various pictures back to the Renaissance. > Generally the kid is more comfy if the belt goes around the chest, but > waist would also work. there's a picture in the Needlework of Mary Queen of Scots of a harness (suspenders attached to a belt on a leash kinda thing) that she made for her son ... Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:15:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKFIRM010673 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:15:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKCEd5016813 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:12:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKCD4g007208; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:12:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKAe4g005959 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:10:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040715201038.OYOG18566.out011.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:10:38 -0500 Message-ID: <014801c46aa7$cfc05e70$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:10:44 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:10:38 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne- I am always so impressed with your work. I would be satisfied if anything I made turned out 100th as good as any of yours. There are no words to describe the beauty of this dress. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 11:38 AM Subject: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress > Hi. > I have compleated the boned bodice for the weddingdress i make, and i > couldnt resist in draping quickly the skirt to the waist. > Pictures here: > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Xenias wedding is 24.th of july. > The skirt is supported on a real reproduktion 18th century pannier. > > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:16:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKGtRM010692 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:16:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKCWd5016870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:12:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKCW4g007470; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:12:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKBl4g006878 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:11:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040715201142.RJWC24784.out014.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:11:42 -0500 Message-ID: <014e01c46aa7$f5d27670$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003c01c46a99$6b3cbe20$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> <001301c46a9b$2b8b6f90$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New embrodieries (OT?) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:11:48 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:11:42 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_33.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] New embrodieries (OT?) > Dear Lorina, > Would really like to se your embroideries, but i could not find it on your > website. > Would you please send the direct url to the embroideries? > > Bjarne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Five Rivers" > To: "Historic Costume List" > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:27 PM > Subject: [h-cost] New embrodieries (OT?) > > > > Not quite sure how this ties in with costuming, other than I'm working > > with textiles. I've uploaded to our website (URL in tagline) the two > > completed embroideries in the series Earth, Wind, Fire, Water on which I'm > > working. Thought some of you might be interested. The images aren't great. > > The digital camera with which I'm working definitely performs according > with > > the price I paid. > > :-( But it at least gives an idea. Oh, you get there by clicking on > > Catalogue and then Fine Art. > > > > Wind is on the frame at the moment, and proving quite time consuming, > > worked on a linen ground with both filament and spun white silks, with > white > > freshwater pearls and just a touch of gold bullion thread. Just a touch. > The > > design for it comes from Odin's eight-legged horse he rode across the sky. > > I'm using a series of very textural stitches as well as raised work in > order > > to emulate the feeling of both cirrus and cumulo-nimbus clouds. > > > > Water is ready to go on the frame as soon as I get Wind off. At the > rate > > I work it's going to be late this year before I get to it. The design > > influence from it comes from the Norse belief rivers and streams came from > a > > water dragon, so I have a flightless dragon spewing forth all manner of > > fishes which form quite the frothing, bouncing feeling as they arc through > > the design. It's on a teal silk charmeuse ground, to be embroidered in > > filament and spun silks all in greens and blues, with some gold paillettes > > and gold bullion work. I might introduce some silver to this. Not sure at > > this point. Oh yes, and likely some freshwater pearls. Will see what > strikes > > me as I work. These things sort of evolve. > > > > Regards > > Lorina > > Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage > > fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & > embroidery > > supplies > > (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:35:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKZfRM010777 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:35:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKYMd5019206 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:34:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKYL4g024780; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:34:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKKZ4g014204 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:20:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040715202034.KDPP9273.out002.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:20:34 -0500 Message-ID: <019601c46aa9$32c42870$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407152042.i6FKgU9J007135@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:20:40 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:20:33 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Don't we all have that opinion at one time or another. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Farmer" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children > > Wendy wrote: > > > We did this with our son when he 18 months old with a leather belt around his waist. We thought it was great, although in his opinion all the best stuff in the world was just out of his reach. > > > > It always is! > > > > We have harnesses for the twins which we got from a catalog, but I've > > seen versions in pictures from various pictures back to the Renaissance. > > Generally the kid is more comfy if the belt goes around the chest, but > > waist would also work. > > there's a picture in the Needlework of Mary Queen of Scots of a harness > (suspenders attached to a belt on a leash kinda thing) that she made for > her son ... > > Jerusha > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:35:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKZmRM010783 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:35:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKXwd5019147 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:33:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKXu4g024480; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:33:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from uni00mr.unity.ncsu.edu (uni00mr.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.163]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKBn4g006876 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:11:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from david_serxner@ncsu.edu) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uni00mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i6FKBfNu000007 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uni00mr.unity.ncsu.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (uni00mr.unity.ncsu.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29701-08 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ncsu.edu (acq-gss4421.lib.ncsu.edu [152.1.24.106]) by uni00mr.unity.ncsu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/N.20040607.01) with ESMTP id i6FKBeEK029991 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F6E4FD.8010206@ncsu.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:11:41 -0400 From: David Serxner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] viscose? References: <200407151856.i6FIurAR005806@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407151856.i6FIurAR005806@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There is this page: http://members.tripod.com/~wackyanne/studio/rayon.htm David -- David Serxner NCSU Libraries Acquisitions Dept. Serials and Electronic Resources Campus Box 7111 Raleigh, NC 27695-7111 919-513-3355 office 919-515-7292 fax _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:37:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKbsRM010786 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:37:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKYBd5019175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:34:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKYA4g024652; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:34:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f17.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKG04g009966 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:16:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:15:53 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:15:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:15:53 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2004 20:15:53.0889 (UTC) FILETIME=[87D10910:01C46AA8] Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO >From: >Who sells more? Brittany Spears and Bjork or Bach and Stravinsky? Which is >better? [not sure why you think art and entertainment are mutually >exclusive] Do you think when Bach was writing his music he was doing it for >art, or to >support his family? [Why is that mutually exclusive?] Was Bach popular >during his >lifetime? Currently, Brittney sells more than those deadboys do. That means that she's better at selling to today's audience than a couple of old dead white men writing music that's not as popular today as Britney's Pop I don't think that Bach was writing "art", but was trying to do what sold then. And because that sort of music was more popular then, it probably "sold" better. The fact that Bach and Stravinsky are considered "art" today has more to do with the fact that they've continued to sell at all, even after that style of music has pretty much faded from the mainstream. >And, BTW, some films have been art from before sound. You know, a lot of films before sound were ALSO being done to sell and nothing more. The introduction of sound is not terribly relevant to the argument. >Why is acknowledging excellence and comparing it to mediocrity not PC and >considered snobby? Who's afraid of intellect? Why are people not supposed >to elevate and improve their taste? Why can't people insist on quality in >their lives? Since you're the person who used the terms "snob" and "snobby" , I really can't speak to that aside from the impression that you were all prepared to defend yourself from that position. That's your business. For that matter, if you'd read the message I'd written - besides realizing I hadn't said anything about being a snob, you'd notice that I'd suggested that quality was good thing and should be encouraged - it just wasn't the central structure upon which making movies was supported. I really ought to thank you since being PC is not something that I get accused of being very often. I don't really give a crap if people get their feelings hurt when I intend to do that. I do get a little regretful when I do it -unintentionally-, but that's a different issue :). I will say that the assumption that something requires education and "taste" to appreciate is perfectly reasonable. I for one find many things interesting and enjoyable and well done - many of which I've had to learn to appreciate, learn to understand the context they come from and why that's relevant to me. I've also learned that a lot of things considered "art" is crap to me, and I have no interest in them (in fact most "art films" are dreadful , in MY opinion). Usually, I can tell when a director is trying to get artistic, and it rarely takes a lot of effort to understand what they are trying for. Sometimes it works, and a movie is better for it. Sometimes it just doesn't work. But that is -secondary- to the main job of selling seats in a theater and all that follows. Marc _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access helps fight spam and pop-ups – now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:38:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKcCRM010790 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:38:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKYGd5019189 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:34:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKYF4g024721; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:34:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKIJ4g011967 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:18:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kbaird@cableone.net) Received: from kimathlon (unverified [24.119.35.202]) by smail2.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 9285450 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:04:27 -0700 From: "kim baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Victorian fabric question Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:18:17 -0500 Message-ID: <002301c46aa8$dde5ee60$6601a8c0@kimathlon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <0D3431E0FD777844A4ED9507E4D698D90CBCE5@incoming.sigenetics.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO Faille is (and was) a sort of corded fabric. Think very narrow wale corduroy, with no fuzz--just flat. It is still available, although more often in polyester than in silk. It has much more body than taffeta, and costs more, too. Unless your photo is a close-up of the fabric, it would be hard to tell in a picture. Kim -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sunny Buchler Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 2:58 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Victorian fabric question Does anyone know what silk faille was in 1872? I just got a museum catalogue (_With Grace and Favour_) that lists a dress being made of that fabric, but in the picture it looks like a modern tabby-weave silk taffeta. I'm wondering how accurate that impression is -- Does anyone know? Thanks, -sunny _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:41:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKfWRM010806 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:41:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKYRd5019224 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:34:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKYQ4g024873; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:34:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKSP4g020259 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:28:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32fad.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.173]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0C37247FE62 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:28:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004c01c46aaa$4c114000$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <014801c46aa7$cfc05e70$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:28:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear Brandy, OOhhhh, thanks for that phraise, very kind of you to say so, but i am sure your own work is nice two. Dont you underestimate your own work? Always believe in your own skills is my phraise! Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress > Bjarne- > > I am always so impressed with your work. I would be satisfied if anything I > made turned out 100th as good as any of yours. There are no words to > describe the beauty of this dress. > > B > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 11:38 AM > Subject: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress > > > > Hi. > > I have compleated the boned bodice for the weddingdress i make, and i > > couldnt resist in draping quickly the skirt to the waist. > > Pictures here: > > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > > Xenias wedding is 24.th of july. > > The skirt is supported on a real reproduktion 18th century pannier. > > > > Bjarne > > > > > > > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:58:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKwZRM010897 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:58:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKvPd5021581 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:57:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKvP4g042811; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:57:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKqA4g038710 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:52:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ailith@neo.rr.com) Received: from duncan (dhcp024-209-056-164.neo.rr.com [24.209.56.164]) by ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6FKq5lp004908 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00c301c46aad$913da800$1902a8c0@duncan> From: "ailith" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:51:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] preservation and cleaning X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings. A friend of mine has a child's dress from the early 20's that needs cleaned and preserved. It belongs to her Gran who would like to take it to a family reunion. Gran wants her to chuck it in the washer and put it in a box; my friend would like to gently clean the dress and then perhaps frame it. She really can't afford to send it to a conservator--so, any suggestions on cleaning? Her best guess is that it's made of cotton. It's apparently been living in a dress box for 80+ years.... Thanks so much. kate Should we complain that there are thorns on the rose bush or should we rejoice that the thorn bush has roses? ~ unknown _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:59:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKxbRM010903 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:59:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKugd5021470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:56:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKua4g042226; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:56:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKXw4g024438 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:33:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1217474 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:33:52 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:33:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian fabric question From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0D3431E0FD777844A4ED9507E4D698D90CBCE5@incoming.sigenetics.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Faille is also called bengaline, a very textured fabric, shiny but matte. It sort of looks like an un-napped corduroy. It's quite elegant stuff. I have a 1950s swing coat made of the stuff. LynnD Just a Chatty Cathy today On 7/15/04 12:58 PM, "Sunny Buchler" wrote: > Does anyone know what silk faille was in 1872? I just got a museum catalogue > (_With Grace and Favour_) that lists a dress being made of that fabric, but in > the picture it looks like a modern tabby-weave silk taffeta. I'm wondering how > accurate that impression is -- Does anyone know? > Thanks, > -sunny > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 16:59:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FKxuRM010908 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:59:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKvHd5021554 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:57:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKvG4g042692; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:57:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FKgT4g030902 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:42:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1217519 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:42:22 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:42:22 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407152042.i6FKgU9J007135@sabre.goldsword.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My mom used one on my brother when he was little (born 1954) because he was so active he'd get lost if she blinked long. He was an absolute danger to himself. It was a harness, a series of twill straps sewn together that used D-rings for the tightening. They went over his shoulders and across his chest, under his arms, and buckled in the back (where his busy little fingers couldn't get them) with the D-rings. It looked like white very short suspenders. He couldn't wiggle out of it until he was about 4, at which point it no longer kept him safe but became a danger to him so she stopped using it. She only used it when she was alone with the four of us at the store or something; if my father was around she didn't need it. We never had to stake him, although I bet my mother would have liked to sometimes. Now he's into electronics/computers/stereos and safe. LynnD On 7/15/04 1:42 PM, "Susan Farmer" wrote: >> Wendy wrote: >>> We did this with our son when he 18 months old with a leather belt around >>> his waist. We thought it was great, although in his opinion all the best >>> stuff in the world was just out of his reach. >> >> It always is! >> >> We have harnesses for the twins which we got from a catalog, but I've >> seen versions in pictures from various pictures back to the Renaissance. >> Generally the kid is more comfy if the belt goes around the chest, but >> waist would also work. > > there's a picture in the Needlework of Mary Queen of Scots of a harness > (suspenders attached to a belt on a leash kinda thing) that she made for > her son ... > > Jerusha > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 17:15:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FLFVRM011012 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:15:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLEud5023622 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:14:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLEq4g057606; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:14:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FL2f4g046844 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:02:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from reddawn.net (js.reddawn.net [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E424264C for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:26:02 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <40F6F0EC.2070703@reddawn.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:02:36 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Subject: [h-cost] does anyone here do dolls? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO I have some small pieces of fine silk (it's from lingerie) that might be suitable for doll clothing, mostly in bright colors. Some of it has polyester lace on it. I'm willing to give it to someone who will use it, rather than throw it out. If you are interested, email me off list. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 17:26:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FLQERM011043 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:26:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLOvd5024992 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:24:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLON4g065770; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:24:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLFQ4g057990 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:15:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07347 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:19:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:19:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian fabric question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Lynn Downward wrote: > Faille is also called bengaline, a very textured fabric, shiny but matte. Are the really the same? I've worked with both, and have this sense that there's a difference. Perhaps one of them has the ridges running warp-wise and the other is weft-wise? Or are the ridges made in different ways? Just guessing here... Of course, my "bengaline" might have been sold as faille in another store, for all I know. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 17:28:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6FLSkRM011052 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:28:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLPcd5025136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:25:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLPa4g067222; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:25:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLFQ4g057990 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:15:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07347 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:19:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:19:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian fabric question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Lynn Downward wrote: > Faille is also called bengaline, a very textured fabric, shiny but matte. Are the really the same? I've worked with both, and have this sense that there's a difference. Perhaps one of them has the ridges running warp-wise and the other is weft-wise? Or are the ridges made in different ways? Just guessing here... Of course, my "bengaline" might have been sold as faille in another store, for all I know. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:26:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2QbRM012332 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:26:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Ohd5020219 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:24:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2NM4g040300; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:23:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLmT4g084817 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:48:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6FMK65c008087 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:20:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6FMK6Ef008086 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:20:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407152220.i6FMK6Ef008086@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] preservation and cleaning In-Reply-To: <00c301c46aad$913da800$1902a8c0@duncan> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > A friend of mine has a child's dress from the early 20's that needs > cleaned and preserved. It belongs to her Gran who would like to take > it to a family reunion. Gran wants her to chuck it in the washer and > put it in a box; my friend would like to gently clean the dress and > then perhaps frame it. > > She really can't afford to send it to a conservator--so, any > suggestions on cleaning? Her best guess is that it's made of cotton. > It's apparently been living in a dress box for 80+ years.... Arount here (E. Tenessee) a great many dry cleaners will do that for you -- like they do for wedding dresses. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:29:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2TZRM012337 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:29:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Qnd5020345 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:26:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Pc4g041428; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:25:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FM1B4g094421 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:01:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0136.dialsprint.net ([63.186.144.136]) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlEHv-0006OF-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:01:11 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:01:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407152042.i6FKgU9J007135@sabre.goldsword.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I believe they were called "leading strings" back then? Ruth Anne > there's a picture in the Needlework of Mary Queen of Scots of a harness > (suspenders attached to a belt on a leash kinda thing) that she made for > her son ... > > Jerusha > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:30:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2UrRM012343 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:30:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2TId5020500 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:29:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2S74g042521; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:28:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp3.suscom.net (smtp3.suscom.net [64.78.119.250]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FMEx4h004007 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:15:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8C7DBD2B for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp3.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C8D63DBC1C for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <02cb01c46ab9$134b9130$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:14:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Downward" To: "h costume" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children She only used it when she was alone with the four of us at the > store or something; if my father was around she didn't need it. > > We never had to stake him, although I bet my mother would have liked to > sometimes. > > Now he's into electronics/computers/stereos and safe. I use a similar set up for my 2 year old, and have used it for each of my last three boys. It literally saved Steven several times when he would try to dart out into traffic. Jimmy likes it because it gives him a little wandering room but Mommy is close by. Of the three, Steven definitely needed it the most. He's massively ADHD, and yes, there are days when I want to stake him!! lol Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:31:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2VKRM012346 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:31:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2UYd5020635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:30:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2TN4g043112; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:29:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m22.mx.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FMYP4g016925 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:34:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.129.4635c707 (4459) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:34:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <129.4635c707.2e28606b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:34:19 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/14/04 1:47:02 PM Central Daylight Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: And that's the way it is. No, that's the way you see it. I believe that art is completely and utterly subjective, which is one of the things that makes it art in the first place. Being thoroughly historically inaccurate may make a movie into something that you personally really hate, but it doesn't make it awful. Sorry. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:31:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2VVRM012349 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:31:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2S3d5020424 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:28:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Qr4g041901; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:26:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from softwareinnovation.com (w002.z064000176.dfw-tx.dsl.cnc.net [64.0.176.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FM8l4g099441 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:08:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from betsy@softwareinnovation.com) Received: from theforce ([64.0.176.13]) by softwareinnovation.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:08:06 -0500 From: "Betsy Marshall" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] preservation and cleaning Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:08:47 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c46ab8$4d5c7c50$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <00c301c46aad$913da800$1902a8c0@duncan> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jul 2004 22:08:06.0836 (UTC) FILETIME=[34F73740:01C46AB8] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think I have heard Orvus paste recommended for this- a gentle soak and swish in cool water, drip (or flat) dry and press as needed. Haven't cleaned anything that old myself, but easy and gentle seems the way to go- you can always get more aggressive later if needful. HTH! Betsy -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of ailith Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 3:52 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] preservation and cleaning Greetings. A friend of mine has a child's dress from the early 20's that needs cleaned and preserved. It belongs to her Gran who would like to take it to a family reunion. Gran wants her to chuck it in the washer and put it in a box; my friend would like to gently clean the dress and then perhaps frame it. She really can't afford to send it to a conservator--so, any suggestions on cleaning? Her best guess is that it's made of cotton. It's apparently been living in a dress box for 80+ years.... Thanks so much. kate Should we complain that there are thorns on the rose bush or should we rejoice that the thorn bush has roses? ~ unknown _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:34:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2YLRM012353 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:34:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Vnd5020716 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:31:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Ud4g043896; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:30:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FMha4h022828 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:43:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6FMfOtY005300 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:41:24 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F70896.1060605@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:43:34 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] SCA Seargeant/Some medieval prices... References: <20040715194331.14448.qmail@web50403.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040715194331.14448.qmail@web50403.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO Angharad ver' Reynulf wrote: > (for those not in the SCA, Sergeant's Trials is > something a person may participate in to show that > they are well-versed in knowledge particular to their > chosen persona. Wow! I've been in for 21 years and have never heard of this. Which kingdom(s)? -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent "Trashy literature is about sex and violence; great literature is about love and death." _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:35:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2ZbRM012361 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:35:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2X5d5020828 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:33:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Vt4g044515; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:31:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FLft4g080058 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:41:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0136.dialsprint.net ([63.186.144.136]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlDzD-0000Ld-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:41:52 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:42:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That's just magical, Bjarne. Makes me wish I were getting married! Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer on 7/15/04 2:38 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews at drewscph@post12.tele.dk wrote: > Hi. > I have compleated the boned bodice for the weddingdress i make, and i > couldnt resist in draping quickly the skirt to the waist. > Pictures here: > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Xenias wedding is 24.th of july. > The skirt is supported on a real reproduktion 18th century pannier. > > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:36:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2aKRM012366 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:36:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Zad5020962 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:35:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2YP4g045824; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:34:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FMjL4h024073 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:45:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6FMh7tY005322 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:43:07 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F708FD.6080900@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:45:17 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur References: <010101c46a95$5a967e20$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> In-Reply-To: <010101c46a95$5a967e20$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO > Only one thing comes to mind: > > "One man's fool is another man's king" One man's fish is another man's _poisson_. -- Fozzie Bear _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:36:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2aURM012369 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:36:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2YKd5020893 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:34:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2XA4g045118; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:33:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FMiN4g023305 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:44:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.ae.5cc6c43f (4459) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:44:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:44:13 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood, was King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/04 8:35:17 AM Central Daylight Time, K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk writes: ??? Surely King John doesn't appear in *all* versions of the Robin Hood legend? Not that I was terribly impressed by the film myself, but that seems an odd reason for condemning it. I agree with this. Robin Hood is really far more legend than fact anyways (as is the Arthurian legend), so what's the point in hating it because it's not historically accurate? -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:39:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2dmRM012378 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:39:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cTd5021228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cS4g047715; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FN3U4g036810 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:03:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I0X0096J1DP08@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@net.indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I0X0071A1DP26@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@net.indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:03:25 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:03:25 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com To: h-costume@net.indra.com Message-id: <87ba59879d9c.879d9c87ba59@direcway.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, not only did they let him have the main Strider costume to break in (per his request), but he was also allowed and encouraged to mend it and maintain it, as well as add details. I'm sure once full production started they took it away from him, so he wouldn't mess up continuity. He also got to take his sword home at nite (at least for a while). There is an anecdote about a cop in Wellington that got a little concerned when he saw this scruffy looking dude with a huge sword leaving an appartment building at 0 dark 30 in the morning. Apparently Viggo managed to talk his way out of it (of course what with being King and all....) Bettina Message: 13 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:21:05 +0000 From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards To: h-costume@indra.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >I heard that Viggo slept in his costume through the whole shoot. Is that >true? I like an actor who cares about his character's appearance that much >(and I'm not joking). I doubt it. They never shoot movies in order, and if they'd had to go back and shoot a scene early in the movie after he'd slept in the costume for a few months, it would have looked more worn than it should have been. Unless he had a spare (he probably had a few spares, but I'm not sure if they would have let him have one before the shoot was over). _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:40:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2e4RM012381 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:40:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cod5021307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2co4g047887; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (imo-m21.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G0Uf4g085561 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:30:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.15.2dbbbe1e (24895) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:30:32 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <15.2dbbbe1e.2e287ba8@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:30:32 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] preservation and cleaning To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 4:58:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, ailith@neo.rr.com writes: She really can't afford to send it to a conservator--so, any suggestions on cleaning? Her best guess is that it's made of cotton. It's apparently been living in a dress box for 80+ years.... Use Orvis detergent if she can find it, Dreft if she can't. Get a piece of Fiberglas screen, tape the edges, and use that to support the fabric. Immerse in the tub, on the screen. rinse and dry the same way. It probably won't get white, and nothing could get it that way again, so don't try. A chemical reaction takes place to produce brown spots and that is irreversible. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:40:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2e5RM012384 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:40:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2csd5021321 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cs4g047928; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G0pL4g095339 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:51:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1cb.25f54a05 (4568) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:51:10 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1cb.25f54a05.2e28807e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:51:10 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 4:34:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, marccarlson20@hotmail.com writes: > but was trying to do what sold > then. And because that sort of music was more popular then, it probably > "sold" better. Actually Bach was considered "old Fashioned" even in his lifetime. He was 3rd in line for one of his posts...after Handel and one of his day's most popular composers [and to this day, the one who's written more works than just about anyone] Telemann. Ever heard of him? What does being dead and white have to do with anything? [people always bring this up when discussing classical music] Stravinsky is a 20th century composer so he was "great" while alive. These composers are considered art today not because they still sell, but because their art still has relevance and still speaks to people. [most film composers would be lost without Stravinsky....and Bartok and Holst and Tchaikovsky, and.....and....] It wasn't "pop" music and never has been. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:40:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2eTRM012387 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:40:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2b4d5021092 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:37:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Zi4g046536; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:35:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FMnj4g027597 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:49:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.65.2e54ea69 (4459) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:49:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <65.2e54ea69.2e2863ff@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:49:35 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/04 12:49:15 PM Central Daylight Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: Why is acknowledging excellence and comparing it to mediocrity not PC and considered snobby? Who's afraid of intellect? Why are people not supposed to elevate and improve their taste? Why can't people insist on quality in their lives? Why do you feel that things that you consider "good" or "awful" simply ARE "good" or "awful," and no one else's opinion of them can matter because you have spoken? Just asking. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:41:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2fGRM012392 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:41:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cOd5021190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cK4g047647; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FMtO4g031681 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:55:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1218077 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:55:18 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:55:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian fabric question From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ahhh, and semantics rears its ugly head again. I was taught they are the same thing, but if one has the ridges running one way and the other the other way, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know. But I've seen seemingly the same stuff labeled both, and in high end stores, not just in JoAnn Fabrics. LynDD On 7/15/04 2:19 PM, "Robin Netherton" wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Lynn Downward wrote: > >> Faille is also called bengaline, a very textured fabric, shiny but matte. > > Are the really the same? I've worked with both, and have this sense that > there's a difference. Perhaps one of them has the ridges running warp-wise > and the other is weft-wise? Or are the ridges made in different ways? Just > guessing here... Of course, my "bengaline" might have been sold as faille > in another store, for all I know. > > --Robin > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:41:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2fWRM012395 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:41:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cad5021259 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2ca4g047779; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FN914g040190 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:09:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I0X009341MVE2@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@net.indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I0X007AR1MV26@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@net.indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:08:55 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:08:55 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vermeer To: h-costume@net.indra.com Message-id: <87a0698781e4.8781e487a069@direcway.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey, what's wrong with a crush on Colin Firth? Isn't that almost a requirement? Griet's boyfriend was very nice, too, but Colin Firth, well..... Bettina Message: 5 Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:52:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vermeer To: Historical Costume Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > Hi Jordana, sounds to me like you would enjoy "Girl with a Pearl Earing" > The author gives a very plausible explanation for your observations. I > loved the book and the movie was very pretty. But read the book first! > > Sg (who is still lusting after Griets boyfriend...am I sick or what?) Only if I'm still sick for lusting after Vermeer, as played by Colin Firth. Your crush is probably healthier! --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:41:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2fhRM012398 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:41:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cFd5021169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2bA4g047145; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:37:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FMoi4g028631 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:50:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.ae.5cc6c43f (4459) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:44:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:44:13 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood, was King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/04 8:35:17 AM Central Daylight Time, K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk writes: ??? Surely King John doesn't appear in *all* versions of the Robin Hood legend? Not that I was terribly impressed by the film myself, but that seems an odd reason for condemning it. I agree with this. Robin Hood is really far more legend than fact anyways (as is the Arthurian legend), so what's the point in hating it because it's not historically accurate? -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:42:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2gPRM012401 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:42:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cjd5021293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cj4g047853; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com (imo-m15.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.205]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G0Rt4g084196 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:27:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.d.2d5406a2 (24895) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:27:44 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:27:44 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian fabric question To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 4:57:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, LDownward@chori.org writes: Faille is also called bengaline, a very textured fabric, shiny but matte. It sort of looks like an un-napped corduroy. It's quite elegant stuff. I have a 1950s swing coat made of the stuff. I think that, technically, faille and bengaline differ in the size of the rib. The ribbed fabrics are a whole series, including grosgrain. True taffeta is also a ribbed weave (the finest rib)--an unbalanced plain weave--about twice as many warp as filling yarns produce a rib. According to Hollen and Saddler's "Textiles," faille also has a filament warp and staple filling--not sure if that was the case in the 19th century. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:42:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2gTRM012404 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:42:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cfd5021274 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2ce4g047813; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41507.mail.yahoo.com (web41507.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6FNd44g058716 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:39:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040715233858.1022.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [193.237.15.43] by web41507.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:38:58 BST Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:38:58 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Marquesate?= To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Photos from c. 1710 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I showed off this Queen Anne costume when I actually got it, a couple of years ago, but tonight I helped with a friend's Museum exhibition opening in London and wore my beautiful mantua again. I found out that there is something truly wonderful about mantuas: when you lose weight they still fit! You just pull it all tighter. *happy smile* I am having a new pair of stays made by the same costumier but otherwise it's still fine. Here you go, it was a lovely evening: http://www.kipar.org/temp/1700-nick1.jpg http://www.kipar.org/temp/1700-nick2.jpg Nicole ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:42:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2giRM012407 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:42:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cWd5021245 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cW4g047742; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6FN734g039081 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:07:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I0X009LW1JM08@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@net.indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:06:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I0X007TA1JM26@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@net.indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:06:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:06:58 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:06:58 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com To: h-costume@net.indra.com Message-id: <879a798776cc.8776cc879a79@direcway.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Johannes berries X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO No doubt about the cherries. I treated myself to some the other day (it's been years, they are sooo expensive) and it took me right back to Germany and the Saturday morning farmers market where I would get cherries in these huge pointy brown paper bags. Always had to get 2-3 pounds, so there would still be some left once I got home. Bettina Message: 3 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 23:51:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Johannes berries To: h-costume@indra.com Message-ID: <200407110351.i6B3pko4057353@sabre.goldsword.com> > Jerusha, > > those are Red Currants (Cassis). I vividly remember the hedge we had around the yard of the house we moved from when I was 4. We had a mixed hedge of red currants and gooseberries right by the from gate. Yum! Thanks! > > Was he in Stadthagen in Lower Saxony? I grew up in Hannover. I hope he enjoyed his stay and got to see the country a bit. Yep -- that's the Stadthagen. The family he was staying with actually lived in "Lowenhagen" (and I have no clue if I spelled that correctly or not.) Right now, he misses the currant and the cherries that grew in the yard. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:43:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2h9RM012412 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:43:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2d2d5021350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:39:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2d24g048006; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:39:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G1p84h024741 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:51:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6G1utHX011437 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:56:55 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i6G1us75011436 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:56:54 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:56:54 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407152156.54669.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 15 July 2004 2:38 pm, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Hi. > I have compleated the boned bodice for the weddingdress i make, and i > couldnt resist in draping quickly the skirt to the waist. > Pictures here: > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Xenias wedding is 24.th of july. > The skirt is supported on a real reproduktion 18th century pannier. My God, that's lovely. Xenia is very lucky. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:43:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2hkRM012416 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:43:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2ehd5021567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:40:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2eg4g048860; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:40:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f23.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.23]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Rq4g042368 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:27:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:27:46 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:27:46 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Picture ID-The Sermon of St. Stephen at Jerusalem Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:27:46 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2004 02:27:46.0661 (UTC) FILETIME=[7B43D950:01C46ADC] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/carpaccio_vittore.html http://www.louvre.fr/anglais/collec/peint/inv0181/peint_f.htm http://www.nga.gov/cgi-bin/pimage?501+0+0 http://www.museiciviciveneziani.it/framecentro.asp?pid=365&z=2&tit=Percorsi%20e%20collezioni http://www.abcgallery.com/C/carpaccio/carpaccio.html Here are some links to Capaccio and his works the second links will get you a copy of the paint whose title is The Sermon of St. Stephen at Jerusalem Carpaccio was the most brilliant exponent of the narrative style which developed in the frescoes of the Scuole in Venice from the second half of the 15th century. After the monumental cycle of the History of St. Ursula (Academia) and the frescoes which remain in place in the Scuola di San Giorgio degli Schiavoni, Carpaccio painted six Scenes from the Life of St. Stephen (Louvre, Brera, Milan, Stuttgart, Berlin-Dahlhem) between 1511 and 1520 for the Scuola dei Lanieri at San Stefano. This served as a pretext for a depiction of a resplendent Jerusalem, with Oriental costumes and exoticism giving an added richness to the classical ideal. the only other example of that type of dress I know of off hand is this painting by Titan http://oonagh.actewagl.net.au/turkish_coat_for_venetian_dress.htm Wilhelmina >From: Robin Netherton >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: Historical Costume >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Picture ID >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:39:15 -0500 (CDT) > > >On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > > > I'm intrigued by the surplice-front bodices on the two women in the > > background. I had seen this style of bodice in other European > > Illuminations (not scanned yet), and from this painting by Carpaccio > > > > > > > but I assumed that after hearing Robin lecture that that was part of > > what told you that these women were "special" or "foreign." After > > finding it in now pictures of what are "obviously" Europeans, I'm not > > so sure. > >Not sure which image you're talking about (the book isn't handy) but I'm >certain I've seen a slanted overlapping front opening on reasonably >reliable figures of noblewomen in Flemish art from the late 15th century, >including paintings, manuscripts, and tapestries. I don't believe I called >attention to that style of opening in the lectures you heard, as I >understand it to be an element of normal fashionable dress. However, it's >quite likely that some of the images of saints I showed (in which I would >have been calling attention to other elements of the dress that were *not* >typically found in normal fashion) happened to have that sort of opening. > >Just because something's on a saint or foreigner doesn't automatically >mean it's not real -- obviously there will be some "real" elements of >dress mixed in with "unreal" elements. It does mean you need to be >suspicious, and seek to verify against non-allegorical/historical/foreign >figures. If an element shows up *only* on saints/foreigners, that's when >you can point to it and say "this is probably visual code." > >--Robin > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:43:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2hsRM012419 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:43:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2eqd5021608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:40:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2eq4g048972; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:40:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2UB4g043549 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:30:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.9e.f5685d1 (4459) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:30:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:30:02 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO What is everyone's favorite, bar-none, made-me-drool-and-still-does, movie costume? Can be any genre, any period, any species. I seem to be a die-hard Eiko Ishioka fan, because all my runners-up are her creations for "The Cell" (everything Jennifer Lopez wore in that film was just amazing to me), and my Absolute Favorite of All Time is her Victorian green walking suit worn by Winona Ryder as Mina in "Bram Stoker's Dracula." I've been collecting the materials to make this gown (for myself, what a novel concept!) for a couple of years now, and I'm getting close to having what I think I need to do it ... except the certainty that I can actually make that bustle! LOL When I first started with this idea I thought it was simply diamond shaped pieces of fabric sewn together, but that was just some seriously wishful thinking. I guess I could do it that way and come up with something that "looks like" the original, but I don't wanna. What are you guys' and gals' all time faves? -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:43:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2hvRM012422 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:43:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2f2d5021645 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:41:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2f14g049065; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:41:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f39.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2Xn4g045466 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:33:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:33:44 -0700 Received: from 66.25.126.25 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:33:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.126.25] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:33:44 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2004 02:33:44.0552 (UTC) FILETIME=[5095AE80:01C46ADD] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think this has been recent- like in the past four or five years. It is probably a result of looking through 19th and 18th century Mediterranean, Middle Eastern and African reference for tribal dance costuming. I just that I have never found any early Roman or Greek reference. Wilhelmina >From: Susan Farmer >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) >Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:33:08 -0400 (EDT) > > > > > In the kingdom of Merides, we were our chiton in a total un-authentic > > way..with tank tops and (middle eastern style pants or legging to >preserve > > modesty. It is to funny to see a knight almost fall over trying to see >if > > something is going to bounce thru the opening. > >I have to say I've been inactive for the last 10 years, but that one I >never saw. I wear mine over my swimsuit. > >JErusha >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:47:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2lDRM012426 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:47:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cvd5021336 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2cv4g047971; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:38:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail11.mdx.safepages.com (mail11.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G14b4g001504 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:04:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail11.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id EB4E5A0894; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:05:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust156.tnt2.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.178.156]) by mail11.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D7DDA084E for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:05:37 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <027201c46ad1$1a4efdb0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Victorian fabric question Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:06:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Both terms have changed a bit over the years. Both are warp-faced w/cross-wise ribbing. Bengaline is heavier and has larger ribs, and is made of silk (or a synthetic fiber that mimics silk). Faille is lighter (but still not particularly light) and may be made of silk, wool, or cotton (or a synthetic ditto); it also has a very soft hand. There are several types of faille, like faille taffeta (heavy and firm). Overall, in modern usage the difference seems to be that bengaline is stiffer and heavier with wider, more visible ribs, while faille is softer and flatter with more subtle, narrower ribs. In a 1907 glossary, though, bengaline was "a plain round-corded weave of silk and wool, in which the wool is used as a filling covered by the silk. It is smooth in surface and small in grain." In the same glossary, the definition seems to suggest that faille has a cotton cord covered in silk. -E (is planning to weave bengaline someday soon) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Netherton" > Are the really the same? I've worked with both, and have this sense that > there's a difference. Perhaps one of them has the ridges running warp-wise > and the other is weft-wise? Or are the ridges made in different ways? Just > guessing here... Of course, my "bengaline" might have been sold as faille > in another store, for all I know. > > --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 22:59:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G2xDRM012503 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:59:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2wcd5022815 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:58:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2wZ4g057379; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:58:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail1.plugit.com [66.210.223.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G2wW4g057316 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:58:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penny@costumegallery.com) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A34768600DC; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:53:59 -0500 Received: from MOM [69.241.150.7] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A3384DF014A; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:53:44 -0500 Message-ID: <008501c46ae0$af609ee0$0200a8c0@MOM> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:57:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by ElectroSHIELD (www.plugit.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have two favorites costume flix... Somewhere in Time and The Great Zeigfeld. Penny E. Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 23:24:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G3O2RM012574 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:24:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3Ljd5024693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:21:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3Lh4g069273; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:21:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3Lf4g069208 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:21:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.28.49e76496 (4592) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:21:34 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <28.49e76496.2e28a3bd@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:21:33 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 10:30:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > I believe that art is completely and utterly > subjective, How sad. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 23:30:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G3UIRM012640 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:30:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3Rjd5025144 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:27:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3Ri4g071918; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:27:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (imo-m21.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3Rf4g071860 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:27:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.9.2e369136 (4592) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:27:34 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <9.2e369136.2e28a526@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:27:34 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood, was King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 10:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > Surely King John doesn't appear in *all* versions of the Robin Hood > legend? > Good grief.... Ok..y'see, Richard puts John in charge while he goes off to the Crusades. The Arabs capture him and hold him for ransom. John taxes the people to raise the ransom.....but instead of paying it, he and the nobles keep it. Robin's "steals from the rich" to give the money back to the people it came from because it's not being used to ransom the lawful king. [And I think John ruins his father, a nobleman, and takes his land over all this] It's only the reason Robin does what he does in the 1st place! Or at least that's the way I remember it. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 23:33:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G3XfRM012667 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:33:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3UCd5025400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:30:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3UA4g073170; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:30:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com (imo-m15.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.205]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3U74g073101 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:30:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.79.2e6f5189 (4592) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:29:55 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <79.2e6f5189.2e28a5b3@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:29:55 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 10:37:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > Why do you feel that things that you consider "good" or "awful" simply ARE > "good" or "awful," and no one else's opinion of them can matter because you > have > spoken? > I clearly didn't say this. What I'm saying is that some things ARE better than others. There are criteria for excellence. It is not totally subjective. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 23:40:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G3e4RM012715 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:40:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3cFd5026113 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:38:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3cD4g076942; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:38:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m19.mx.aol.com (imo-m19.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3cC4g076896 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:38:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.fb.5bd44e4d (4592) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:38:04 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:38:04 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO One of my favorite costume movies....and one I like....is considered awful by a lot of people. And it is awful because it was chopped up to hell. I like it, warts and all. It's David Lynch's "Dune". Bob Ringwood [who did Troy....not as good] did it. A fantastic modern dress film that has some of the best costumes I've seen is "The Grifters". What else is great for modern clothes? "The Cook, the Thief, his Wife and her Lover" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 15 23:52:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G3qtRM012770 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:52:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3okd5026983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:50:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3oj4g082815; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:50:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3oh4g082801 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:50:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F2B26FC2 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:50:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p211.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.213]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B6D7D4B1 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:50:42 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:50:44 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <40F708FD.6080900@thibault.org> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Just for the Halibut choose your poisson. :) -----Original Message----- > Only one thing comes to mind: > > "One man's fool is another man's king" One man's fish is another man's _poisson_. -- Fozzie Bear _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 00:01:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G41HRM012824 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:01:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3vpd5027427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:57:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3vo4g086153; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:57:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G3vl4g086089 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:57:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.32.4a644555 (4592) for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:57:39 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <32.4a644555.2e28ac33@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:57:39 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oooooh...my favorite COSTUME... That is nearly impossible. But let's see..... I like the 18th century so I'm partial to Glenn Close's yellow and black traveling outfit in "Dangerous Liaisons"....but I also love Swoozie Kurtz's cherry pink and white brocade gown with the stomacher that is a fan of ribbon loops. [That's James Acheson] I also love the gown Miranda Richardson wears when she cuts her sister's head off in "Sleepy Hollow". It's so weird. It has respect for the period but is just made up....a wonderful fantasy collar and this apron with long heavy fringe. It's on camera for about a 10th of a second so get the DVD and hit the pause button. [That's Coleen Atwood] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 00:14:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G4EuRM012849 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:14:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G4C7d5028484 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:12:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G4C64g092752; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:12:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G4C34g092732 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:12:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 27034 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2004 04:12:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 2004 04:12:36 -0000 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com); by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1275.24.4.69.40.1089951121.squirrel@24.4.69.40> In-Reply-To: References: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > That's just magical, Bjarne. Makes me wish I were getting married! > > Ruth Anne Baumgartner > scholar gypsy and amateur costumer > > I always had the idea to do an 1870's bustle dress for my wedding. But that dress is so beautiful that I am having second thoughts.... Diana Habra www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 00:27:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G4RPRM012969 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:27:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G4PRd5029354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:25:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G4PP4g098780; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:25:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G4PM4g098757 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:25:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 29253 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2004 04:25:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 2004 04:25:56 -0000 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com); by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1283.24.4.69.40.1089951921.squirrel@24.4.69.40> In-Reply-To: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> References: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > What is everyone's favorite, bar-none, made-me-drool-and-still-does, movie > costume? Can be any genre, any period, any species. > My favorite makes-me-drool costume movie would have to be Restoration. The dresses that Polly Walker wears are absolutely gorgeous, especially the blue dressing gown. And the men's costumes are very good, too. For beauty AND authenticity, I love Lady Jane, Dangerous Liaisons, and The Aristocrats (if you haven't seen this, it is the Pride & Prejudice of the 18th century). And for pure sexiness I love Queen Margot. Although that may be because Isabella Adjani is a sexpot to begin with. Diana Habra www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 01:04:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G54ARM013208 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:04:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G52Fd5002408 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:02:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G52C4g015912; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:02:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G52B4g015866 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:02:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from edieann@telus.net) Received: from moms ([207.81.27.182]) by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with SMTP id <20040716050205.KFG4361.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@moms> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:02:05 -0600 Message-ID: <001101c46af2$f694e700$b61b51cf@bc.hsia.telus.net> From: "Edith Reardon" To: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:08:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Johannes berries X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6G54ARM013208 Status: RO Cherries I must have picked 70 lbs this year from our tree and I gave them away. There are always so many cherries in the Okanagan my were ready June 20th. I need to wait for my pears and walnuts now. Brin Kendall _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 01:11:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G5BVRM013223 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:11:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G56de3002770 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:09:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G4bd4g004137; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:37:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.82]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G4bc4g004118 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:37:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sarah@modehistorique.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?68.121.53.46?) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@68.121.53.46 with plain) by smtp812.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 2004 04:37:38 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sarah lorraine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 21:37:37 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I hauled out QEWU and typed up the section dealing with stomachers for all of you to enjoy. I'm not sure how well this squares with copyright laws, but it's for educational purposes and I only intend to have it available on my site for a few days. At any rate, here it is: http://www.modehistorique.com/stomachers.html There's a few things that come to my mind as I was typing this up. Namely, it is quite clear from the various inventories that Arnold cites that stomachers were a separate article. Their shape is not discussed, but to me, it makes the most sense to assume that they were triangular, as they were intended to fill a triangular space. The other thing that stands out is their method of embellishment: Lace, embroidery and other applied decorations. This is also in keeping with later 18th c. stomachers, and I'll let everyone make their own conclusions on that. As for Teddy's skepticism that the V&A stomacher is an actual 16th c. stomacher, I feel comfortable that it's 16th c. and not a remade item. When I examined it, it looked to me like it had not been cut down from an earlier article of clothing, or modified in any way. Just being the rank amateur that I am, however, that's certainly not conclusive evidence that I'm correct! However, with Arnold's sources littered with references to similar items it makes more sense in light of her evidence. The final thing that I wanted to point out is that the bulk of Arnold's references to stomachers come from the years 1575-1595. That's right during the era of Ninya Mikhaila's gown that started this discussion, if I recall correctly (1580-ish). I only bring this up because it's my personal feeling that stomachers weren't a frequent accessory during first twenty years of Elizabeth's reign (although Arnold does mention those first 20 years in the context of stomachers, but fails to provide any evidence for them and instead concentrates on the last 20 years). Anyway, I hope this helps. Sarah _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 01:32:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G5WQRM013291 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:32:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5Spd5004263 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:28:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5Sk4g027791; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:28:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f34.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5Sj4g027760 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:28:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:28:40 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.68 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:28:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.68] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:28:39 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2004 05:28:40.0052 (UTC) FILETIME=[C063E340:01C46AF5] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: OT: re: King Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: AlbertCat@aol.com > > but was trying to do what sold > > then. And because that sort of music was more popular then, it probably > > "sold" better. >Actually Bach was considered "old Fashioned" even in his lifetime. He was >3rd >in line for one of his posts...after Handel and one of his day's most >popular >composers [and to this day, the one who's written more works than just >about >anyone] Telemann. Ever heard of him? If memory serves, and I may well be mistaken as music is not my strong point, I was under the impression that Bach was pretty much considered a lousy hack during his life - at least by the critics. They certainly didn't see "art" in what he was doing. He wrote what would sell and feed his large family. Any "art" in his work has been found there in the years after his death. >What does being dead and white have to do with anything? [people always >bring >this up when discussing classical music] Stravinsky is a 20th century >composer so he was "great" while alive. These composers are considered art >today not >because they still sell, but because their art still has relevance and >still >speaks to people. [most film composers would be lost without >Stravinsky....and >Bartok and Holst and Tchaikovsky, and.....and....] It wasn't "pop" music >and >never has been. Sure it was popular - I asume you are talking about the composer of the Firebird and the Rite of Spring -- all that "long hair" stuff :) If "people always" bring up the "dead white males" thing, I assume that you should already be aware of what that phrase means. It's a euphamism used to note the (undue) emphasis that has been placed on those gentlemen in shaping western "Culture". In other words, if some dead white guy didn't do it, it's not worthy of respect or note. Ah well, as much fun as this has been, clearly it's a waste of my time to continue this. Marc _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 01:37:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G5bwRM013319 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:37:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5ZCd5004557 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:35:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5Z94g030303; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:35:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (smtp1.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G5Z84g030270 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:35:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-15204); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:32:42 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp1.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:32:41 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040715223030.01eca448@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:34:56 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF58@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx .ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's no picture of the item you describe in QEWU. The discussion about stomachers is on pages 148-149. "The stomacher or placard was a small decorative piece of material worn by both men and women over the chest and abdomen to fill in the front opening of doublet or kirtle body." Joan At 04:31 PM 7/15/2004 +0100, you wrote: > > There is at least one Elizabethan era stomacher in existence (well, > > there might be more, but this is the only one I've seen with my own > > eyes) and it's in the V&A's textile collection. Unfortunately, I've > > looked high and low for a picture online and have come up > > empty-handed (my own photo happened to be erased from my digital > > camera). I believe there's also a photo in Queen Elizabeth's >Wardrobe > > Unlock'd, but I'm too lazy to go look it up and scan it. Anyhoo... > > > > This particular stomacher is linen, triangular shaped and either > > blackworked or poly-chrome embroidered (can't for the life of me > > remember right now). It has three or four tabs on either edge, which > > are presumably for the purpose of attaching it to a bodice or stays > > (probably with pins). It looks for all the world like later 18th c. > > stomachers, except for the method of embellishment. > >I've never been fully convinced that it wasn't an 18th century stomacher >that someone made(or had made) using an existing piece of old >embroidery. > >We know 19th century clothes and costumes were sometimes made using >old/antique textiles... why not 18th century ones too? > >Just a personal theory - no proof. > >Teddy >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 01:45:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G5jbRM013390 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:45:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5gYd5004854 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:42:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5gS4g033522; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:42:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (smtp1.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G5gP4g033504 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:42:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-14667); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:40:01 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp1.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:40:00 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040715224027.01ed7608@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:42:14 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress In-Reply-To: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 08:38 PM 7/15/2004 +0200, you wrote: >Hi. >I have compleated the boned bodice for the weddingdress i make, and i >couldnt resist in draping quickly the skirt to the waist. >Pictures here: >http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia >Xenias wedding is 24.th of july. >The skirt is supported on a real reproduktion 18th century pannier. > >Bjarne It's very beautiful. I hope you can post a picture of the bride wearing the gown. Is she planning on having an 18th-century hairstyle to go with the gown? Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 01:50:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G5ovRM013410 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:50:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5mid5005027 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:48:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5mg4g036025; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:48:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm01.prodigy.net (ylpvm01-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5me4g036013 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:48:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-94-81.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.94.81]) by ylpvm01.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G5mdtA022147 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:48:40 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040715224703.01e02de0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:48:43 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? In-Reply-To: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >What is everyone's favorite, bar-none, made-me-drool-and-still-does, movie >costume? Can be any genre, any period, any species. It's either the brown dress the mistress wears in Topsy Turvy (I think it's an original 1880s dress) or Snape's outer robe from all the Harry Potter films. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 01:59:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G5xQRM013461 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:59:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5vZd5005368 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:57:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5vY4g039498; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:57:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5vW4g039473 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:57:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716055730.EILJ28276.out007.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:57:30 -0500 Message-ID: <001601c46af9$c839f920$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <010101c46a95$5a967e20$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> <40F708FD.6080900@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:57:28 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:57:29 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO LMAOROTF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia Virtue" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur > > > Only one thing comes to mind: > > > > "One man's fool is another man's king" > > One man's fish is another man's _poisson_. -- Fozzie Bear > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 02:02:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G62XRM014260 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:02:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5vCd5005340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:57:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G5vA4g039331; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:57:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (smtp1.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G5v84g039310 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:57:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-11133); Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:54:43 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp1.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:54:43 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040715225535.01ef8090@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:56:58 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children In-Reply-To: <02cb01c46ab9$134b9130$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 06:14 PM 7/15/2004 -0400, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Lynn Downward" >To: "h costume" >Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 4:42 PM >Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children > > > She only used it when she was alone with the four of us at the > > store or something; if my father was around she didn't need it. > > > > We never had to stake him, although I bet my mother would have liked to > > sometimes. > > > > Now he's into electronics/computers/stereos and safe. > >I use a similar set up for my 2 year old, and have used it for each of my >last three boys. It literally saved Steven several times when he would try >to dart out into traffic. Jimmy likes it because it gives him a little >wandering room but Mommy is close by. > >Of the three, Steven definitely needed it the most. He's massively ADHD, and >yes, there are days when I want to stake him!! lol > >Dianne Whenever I see a child with leading strings (of any variety), I always complement the child on how clever they are to make certain that Mommy or Daddy can't get lost. Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 02:08:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G689RM014616 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:08:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G65Zd5005660 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:05:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G65W4g042708; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:05:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G65U4g042679 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:05:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716060528.CVBF15848.out010.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:05:28 -0500 Message-ID: <002201c46afa$e5027bd0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <87a0698781e4.8781e487a069@direcway.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:05:23 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:05:27 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I agree with both ;p The movie was filled with eye candy. B ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 4:08 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vermeer > Hey, what's wrong with a crush on Colin Firth? Isn't that almost a requirement? Griet's boyfriend was very nice, too, but Colin Firth, well..... > > Bettina > > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:52:49 -0500 (CDT) > From: Robin Netherton > Subject: RE: [h-cost] Vermeer > To: Historical Costume > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > On Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > > > Hi Jordana, sounds to me like you would enjoy "Girl with a Pearl Earing" > > The author gives a very plausible explanation for your observations. I > > loved the book and the movie was very pretty. But read the book first! > > > > Sg (who is still lusting after Griets boyfriend...am I sick or what?) > > Only if I'm still sick for lusting after Vermeer, as played by Colin > Firth. Your crush is probably healthier! > > --Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 02:27:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G6R9RM014661 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:27:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G6Odd5006419 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:24:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G6Nf4g050361; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:23:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.180]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G6Nc4g050334 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:23:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sarah@modehistorique.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?64.160.118.154?) (lithiate@sbcglobal.net@64.160.118.154 with plain) by smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 2004 06:23:37 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20040715223030.01eca448@pop.surewest.net> References: <4.2.2.20040715223030.01eca448@pop.surewest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sarah lorraine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:23:33 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, I know. I printed up the entire section from QEWU that deals with the topic of stomachers for those who don't have the book, and posted it here: http://www.modehistorique.com/stomachers.html As for the one at the V&A, I have a picture of it in one of my books, somewhere. I thought it was QEWU but I was mistaken. I'll have to go through my library to see if I can track down the photo. Sarah On Jul 15, 2004, at 10:34 PM, Joan Jurancich wrote: > There's no picture of the item you describe in QEWU. The discussion > about stomachers is on pages 148-149. "The stomacher or placard was a > small decorative piece of material worn by both men and women over the > chest and abdomen to fill in the front opening of doublet or kirtle > body." > Joan > > At 04:31 PM 7/15/2004 +0100, you wrote: > >> > There is at least one Elizabethan era stomacher in existence (well, >> > there might be more, but this is the only one I've seen with my own >> > eyes) and it's in the V&A's textile collection. Unfortunately, I've >> > looked high and low for a picture online and have come up >> > empty-handed (my own photo happened to be erased from my digital >> > camera). I believe there's also a photo in Queen Elizabeth's >> Wardrobe >> > Unlock'd, but I'm too lazy to go look it up and scan it. Anyhoo... >> > >> > This particular stomacher is linen, triangular shaped and either >> > blackworked or poly-chrome embroidered (can't for the life of me >> > remember right now). It has three or four tabs on either edge, >> which >> > are presumably for the purpose of attaching it to a bodice or stays >> > (probably with pins). It looks for all the world like later 18th c. >> > stomachers, except for the method of embellishment. >> >> I've never been fully convinced that it wasn't an 18th century >> stomacher >> that someone made(or had made) using an existing piece of old >> embroidery. >> >> We know 19th century clothes and costumes were sometimes made using >> old/antique textiles... why not 18th century ones too? >> >> Just a personal theory - no proof. >> >> Teddy >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 02:50:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G6oSRM014809 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:50:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G6lrd5007570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:47:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G6ll4g059618; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:47:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G6lj4g059595 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:47:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scourney@nwlink.com) Received: from susan (ip157.usw235.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [207.202.235.157]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 707256AFFA for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <11cb01c46b01$bbccd880$0200a8c0@susan> From: "Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040715194331.14448.qmail@web50403.mail.yahoo.com> <40F70896.1060605@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] SCA Seargeant/Some medieval prices... Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:54:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think that Angharad, as well as me, is in An Tir (the northwest USA and Western Canada) and it is something all the local groups do. Susan Paraventur of Port de l'Eau in Madrone > Angharad ver' Reynulf wrote: > > (for those not in the SCA, Sergeant's Trials is > > something a person may participate in to show that > > they are well-versed in knowledge particular to their > > chosen persona. > > Wow! I've been in for 21 years and have never heard of this. Which > kingdom(s)? > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 04:11:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G8BORM015608 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:11:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G8AZd5011311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:10:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G8A14g094662; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:10:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G89d4g094435 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:09:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6G8A3C09075.; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:10:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:09:33 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:09:00 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Photos from c. 1710 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wow - stunning! Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com 16/07/2004 00:38:58 >>> I showed off this Queen Anne costume when I actually got it, a couple of years ago, but tonight I helped with a friend's Museum exhibition opening in London and wore my beautiful mantua again. I found out that there is something truly wonderful about mantuas: when you lose weight they still fit! You just pull it all tighter. *happy smile* I am having a new pair of stays made by the same costumier but otherwise it's still fine. Here you go, it was a lovely evening: http://www.kipar.org/temp/1700-nick1.jpg http://www.kipar.org/temp/1700-nick2.jpg Nicole ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 04:21:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G8LuRM015773 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:21:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G8K9d5012046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:20:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G8K74g099271; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:20:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G8K54g099199 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:20:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6G8KTC10263.; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:20:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:19:59 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:19:53 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood, was King Arthur Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> AlbertCat@aol.com 16/07/2004 04:27:34 >>> In a message dated 7/15/2004 10:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: >> Surely King John doesn't appear in *all* versions of the Robin Hood >. legend? > Actually I said that. >Good grief.... >Ok..y'see, Richard puts John in charge while he goes off to the >Crusades. The Arabs capture him and hold him for ransom. John taxes >the people to raise the ransom.....but instead of paying it, he and the >nobles keep it. Robin's "steals from the rich" to give the money back >to the people it came from because it's not being used to ransom the >lawful king. [And I think John ruins his father, a nobleman, and takes >his land over all this] There are lots of tales and ballads about Robin Hood. See http://www.legends.dm.net/robinhood/ One version has rationalised the story by tying it to historical events, but that doesn't mean it's the only permissible version. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 04:38:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G8cBRM015831 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:38:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G8aFd5013094 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:36:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G8a84g006820; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:36:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41507.mail.yahoo.com (web41507.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G8a64g006767 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:36:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolas_fouquet@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040716083601.3930.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [194.66.208.11] by web41507.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:36:01 BST Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:36:01 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Marquesate?= To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] 18th century group photo X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In addition to the two photos of my mantua that I sent last night, here a group shot of all of us at the exhibition opening. As you can see, the costumes range timewise quite a lot. From about 1710 to - I think - 1760s. (or 70s?) http://www.kipar.org/temp/1700-all.jpg Nicole ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 04:56:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G8u5RM015882 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:56:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G8tMd5014049 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:55:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G8tI4g014803; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:55:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51304.mail.yahoo.com (web51304.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.170]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6G8tG4g014759 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 02:55:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freyalynn@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040716085511.16097.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [195.92.168.166] by web51304.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:55:11 PDT Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:55:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Freyalynn Close-Hainsworth To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407160543.i6G5gp4i033678@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Hood is not a historical figure. The earliest references to him are in folk songs of the 14/15th Centuries, and he ties in to all the other folk figures used in Morris dances and other similar things, such as the Doctor and the Green Man. There are various legends linking him to different parts of northern England, and it's only really been the 19th C retelling of the stories that link him definitely to Sherwood Forest/Nottingham/King Richard 1/King John. Therefore any movie of his *life* can only be accurate to the period in which they choose to set the film, not to details of his existence, which don't exist. In fact (and not checking because I'm at work) I'm pretty sure the robbing the rich to give to the poor is a very late addition - originally he was a romantic highwayman figure. I enjoyed 'Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves', but purely as a fantasy movie with historical influence, which is what it was. Freyalyn, from northern England. ostume-request@indra.com wrote: Good grief.... Ok..y'see, Richard puts John in charge while he goes off to the Crusades. The Arabs capture him and hold him for ransom. John taxes the people to raise the ransom.....but instead of paying it, he and the nobles keep it. Robin's "steals from the rich" to give the money back to the people it came from because it's not being used to ransom the lawful king. [And I think John ruins his father, a nobleman, and takes his land over all this] It's only the reason Robin does what he does in the 1st place! Or at least that's the way I remember it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 05:55:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6G9tWRM016098 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:55:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G9sed5017426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:54:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G9sb4g038214; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:54:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6G9sX4g038167 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 03:54:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB1627155 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:54:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p495.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.215.241]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A79F8D4AF for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:54:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 04:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20040716085511.16097.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, there is no hard proof either way. There was a William Robehod. In the 1200s in that area. There is also the possibility that the man existed but through time the stories grew and multiplied and became elaborate or what started as one man ended up with several taking up medieval identity theft. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/monarchs_leaders/robin_03.shtml or Robert Hod http://www.robinhood.ltd.uk/robinhood/theorigins.html De -----Original Message----- Robin Hood is not a historical figure. The earliest references to him are in folk songs of the 14/15th Centuries, and he ties in to all the other folk figures used in Morris dances and other similar things, such as the Doctor and the Green Man. There are various legends linking him to different parts of northern England, and it's only really been the 19th C retelling of the stories that link him definitely to Sherwood Forest/Nottingham/King Richard 1/King John. Therefore any movie of his *life* can only be accurate to the period in which they choose to set the film, not to details of his existence, which don't exist. In fact (and not checking because I'm at work) I'm pretty sure the robbing the rich to give to the poor is a very late addition - originally he was a romantic highwayman figure. I enjoyed 'Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves', but purely as a fantasy movie with historical influence, which is what it was. Freyalyn, from northern England. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 08:17:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GCHwRM016556 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:17:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCG7d5024205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:16:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCFw4g097812; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:15:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCFu4g097744 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:15:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.87.10ac491e (4568) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:15:48 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <87.10ac491e.2e2920f3@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:15:47 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/2004 11:58:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: Oooooh...my favorite COSTUME... Can't think of a favorite off hand, but can I give a least favorite? I think the costumes in "The Sound of Music" are just atrocious--so very '60s--no effort at all to make them 1930s. And yet I know lots of costumers who are CRAZY about this movie. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 08:20:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GCKrRM016564 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCI2d5024270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:18:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCI04g098708; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:18:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m19.mx.aol.com (imo-m19.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCHu4g098617 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:17:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1d2.2601b7b6 (4568) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:17:48 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <1d2.2601b7b6.2e29216c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:17:48 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:48:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, kayta@frys.com writes: What is everyone's favorite, bar-none, made-me-drool-and-still-does, movie >costume? Can be any genre, any period, any species. And another variant--not my all-time favorite, but one costume piece that is an integral part of the plot--the jacket in "Desperately Seeking Susan"--has the Eye of Horus on the back. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 08:38:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GCc0RM016611 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:38:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCbQd5025205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:37:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCbO4g007649; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:37:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp3.suscom.net (smtp3.suscom.net [64.78.119.250]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCbK4h007555 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:37:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A81EDC03E for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp3.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 029A1DC046 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <034401c46b31$972991f0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4.2.2.20040715225535.01ef8090@pop.surewest.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] re:children and hearths/staking children Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:36:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Whenever I see a child with leading strings (of any variety), I always > complement the child on how clever they are to make certain that Mommy or > Daddy can't get lost. > Joan How very clever. I will be sure to explain to Jim the Bim that way.. Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:01:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GD1xRM016727 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:01:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCxcd5026572 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:59:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCxZ4g019037; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:59:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GCxX4g019009 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:59:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlSJH-0001ke-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:59:31 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] New embrodieries (OT?) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:59:35 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c46b34$beed2320$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <001301c46a9b$2b8b6f90$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne, there isn't anyway to do that. You have to click Cataloge, and then Fine art. But I sure would like to be able to see a bigger picture Lorina. They look Fabulous! Sg >Would you please send the direct url to the embroideries? > >Bjarne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:04:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GD4DRM016732 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:04:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GD39d5026763 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:03:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GD384g020932; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:03:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GD324g020831 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:03:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6GDYg5c014214 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:34:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6GDYg57014213 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:34:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407161334.i6GDYg57014213@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur In-Reply-To: <129.4635c707.2e28606b@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > In a message dated 7/14/04 1:47:02 PM Central Daylight Time, > AlbertCat@aol.com writes: > And that's the way it is. > > No, that's the way you see it. I believe that art is completely and utterly > subjective, which is one of the things that makes it art in the first place. > Being thoroughly historically inaccurate may make a movie into something that > you personally really hate, but it doesn't make it awful. Sorry. I'm with Tiffany here. Just because a movie "touches a cord in *my* soul" doesn't make it a good movie -- other than a goor movie for *me* The local movie critic is part of our guide -- if she raves over it, generally we think it's horrid. If she says it sucks, it's a must see. Good or Bad is in the eye of the beholder. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:07:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GD72RM016740 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:07:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GD2ld5026738 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:02:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GD2l4g020723; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:02:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GD2i4g020646 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:02:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be8d.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.141]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CBA347FE41 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:02:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <005501c46b35$30340210$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:02:45 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sarah, i believe you are right because all those lace patterns for stomachers also are triangular ones. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah lorraine" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher > I hauled out QEWU and typed up the section dealing with stomachers for > all of you to enjoy. I'm not sure how well this squares with copyright > laws, but it's for educational purposes and I only intend to have it > available on my site for a few days. At any rate, here it is: > http://www.modehistorique.com/stomachers.html > > There's a few things that come to my mind as I was typing this up. > Namely, it is quite clear from the various inventories that Arnold > cites that stomachers were a separate article. Their shape is not > discussed, but to me, it makes the most sense to assume that they were > triangular, as they were intended to fill a triangular space. The > other thing that stands out is their method of embellishment: Lace, > embroidery and other applied decorations. This is also in keeping with > later 18th c. stomachers, and I'll let everyone make their own > conclusions on that. > > As for Teddy's skepticism that the V&A stomacher is an actual 16th c. > stomacher, I feel comfortable that it's 16th c. and not a remade item. > When I examined it, it looked to me like it had not been cut down from > an earlier article of clothing, or modified in any way. Just being the > rank amateur that I am, however, that's certainly not conclusive > evidence that I'm correct! However, with Arnold's sources littered > with references to similar items it makes more sense in light of her > evidence. > > The final thing that I wanted to point out is that the bulk of Arnold's > references to stomachers come from the years 1575-1595. That's right > during the era of Ninya Mikhaila's gown that started this discussion, > if I recall correctly (1580-ish). I only bring this up because it's my > personal feeling that stomachers weren't a frequent accessory during > first twenty years of Elizabeth's reign (although Arnold does mention > those first 20 years in the context of stomachers, but fails to provide > any evidence for them and instead concentrates on the last 20 years). > > Anyway, I hope this helps. > > Sarah > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:13:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GDD2RM016764 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:13:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDBwd5027275 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:11:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDBu4g025122; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:11:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDBs4g025094 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:11:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlSVF-0003xO-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:11:54 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher-extant Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:11:57 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c46b36$7946ddf0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6GDBs4g025094 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oddly enough I was looking at one yesterday because I was curious to see if one could do an extrapolation on the size of it. Davenport has a picture of one in Volume 1, which supposedly belonged to QEW herself. The reference says it lives in the Boston MFA. I am toodling around the site as we speak to see if there is a color photo on line. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:13:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GDDjRM016768 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:13:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GD5cd5026964 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:05:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GD5a4g022228; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:05:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GD5X4g022206 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:05:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:04:23 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF5C@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT Thread-Index: AcRpp5YiD90YcxaJQqO6CHG+HovdBwBjZxUA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle > Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. Or hobbit-powered clippers. Just plug in to a handy hobbit and away you go.... Sorry. Couldn't resist Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:27:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GDRFRM016796 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:27:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDP6d5028078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:25:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDP34g031657; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:25:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDOx4g031586 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:25:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:23:48 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] question on hoods - Rephrased To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF60@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] question on hoods - Rephrased Thread-Index: AcRpp5YiD90YcxaJQqO6CHG+HovdBwBj4WPQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > What is the opinion of this group.... > Would a hood and shoulder cape for the nobility of the 1340-1350 > period be built along the practical lines demonstrated by Nockert and > Norlund... Or is there another approach out there, one that could have > been indulged in by the nobility in order to preserve an uninterrupted line > in the pattern of the fabric? I've not read all the sources you quote so there may be gaps in my knowledge of the garment, but my first questions would be: Have we *any* proof that the hood and shoulder cape were cut seperately and joined at the neck? Is it just an assumption made by some modern person from looking at pictures and thinking how they would do it if they wanted to make a garment that looked like that? That sort of cut looks suspiciously modern/theatrical to me. It's the way I assumed they were made when I made my first one - back in the days I was getting interested in "historical" costume from my background of SF and fantasy costuming. The assumption was based entirely on my knowledge of modern garment making/cutting, not on any historical evidence. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:46:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GDkjRM016875 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:46:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDisd5029398 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:44:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDiq4g042436; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:44:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDil4g042398 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:44:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlT14-000473-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:44:46 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 06:44:50 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c46b3b$10fa7b30$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000d01c46b36$7946ddf0$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6GDil4g042398 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Picture of Extant Elizabethan Stomacher X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://www.saragrace.net/images/Elizabeth/stomacher.jpg This only makes me have more questions. Assuming that the stomacher goes with the jacket, does the triangle seem awfully low (short). Maybe not...I guess the necklines were starting to go down by then...hmmmm. Sure would like to take a look at it up close to see if there are further clues to its attachement. I can't find it online, but am writing the MFA to see if it is still in their collection. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:53:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GDrWRM016909 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:53:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDpfd5029971 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:51:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDpd4g046199; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:51:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDpb4g046124 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:51:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.132.3102d2ca (2168) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:51:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <132.3102d2ca.2e29375f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:51:27 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/04 10:58:23 PM Central Daylight Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: I like the 18th century so I'm partial to Glenn Close's yellow and black traveling outfit in "Dangerous Liaisons".... Absolutely ... I've used this color scheme many times on other gowns, because I loved this dress so much. I did love Sleepy Hollow too, I'm a huge fan of Colleen Atwood. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:54:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GDsQRM016915 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:54:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDoud5029873 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:50:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDos4g045736; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:50:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDop4g045706 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:50:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:49:49 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF63@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? Thread-Index: AcRpvUf07L70eLS2R3yfzGE88DyExwBfc+XQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=100 > > Are the little orange tips on her sleeve or are they part of > the gown behind her? Dagged edges to the openings of her hanging oversleeves > Or is that some sort of cape/shield arrangement which is not part of > the gown itself? Are the little black tips around her waist > tabs (which would be a very distorted perspective) or part of > the above. Possibly the dagging on the opposite edges of the hanging sleeves (orange one side, black the other?) Or, dagged edges on the opeing of her overbodice, folded back to reveal the bodice of her underdress (or seperate stomacher for those who subscribe to that theory...) It has elements indicating it is depicting a masque costume (the headdress, the whispy bits on the tips of the orange pointy things) Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:54:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GDsbRM016919 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:54:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDrAd5000214 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:53:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDr94g046990; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:53:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m25.mx.aol.com (imo-m25.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDr64g046915 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:53:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.dc.f5fb431 (2168) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:52:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:52:59 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/15/04 9:59:21 PM Central Daylight Time, penny@costumegallery.com writes: I have two favorites costume flix... Somewhere in Time and The Great Zeigfeld. Okay, but what's your favorite costume from these? :o) -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:54:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GDskRM016922 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:54:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDpxd5000110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:51:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDpv4g046407; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:51:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDpt4g046340 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:51:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a223.in-tch.com [66.62.107.23]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6GDprN22442 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:51:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F7DE64.4040401@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:55:48 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? References: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I haven't had enough tea yet this morning to get all of my brain cells firing at the right time, but my favorite costume, at the moment, would have to be the garden dress that Michelle Pfeiffer wear in _Dangerous Liaisons_. I also have a strong fondness for the needlework on the hobbits' shirt in RoTK. Uhm, and, well, the pirate outfit that Johnny Depp wore . Especially with Depp *in* it! ;-D --sue, who's slowly collecting fabric for a couple of outfits, but they aren't movie-based.... Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: > What is everyone's favorite, bar-none, made-me-drool-and-still-does, movie > costume? Can be any genre, any period, any species. > > I seem to be a die-hard Eiko Ishioka fan, because all my runners-up are her > creations for "The Cell" (everything Jennifer Lopez wore in that film was just > amazing to me), and my Absolute Favorite of All Time is her Victorian green > walking suit worn by Winona Ryder as Mina in "Bram Stoker's Dracula." > > I've been collecting the materials to make this gown (for myself, what a > novel concept!) for a couple of years now, and I'm getting close to having what I > think I need to do it ... except the certainty that I can actually make that > bustle! LOL When I first started with this idea I thought it was simply > diamond shaped pieces of fabric sewn together, but that was just some seriously > wishful thinking. I guess I could do it that way and come up with something that > "looks like" the original, but I don't wanna. > > What are you guys' and gals' all time faves? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 09:59:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GDxJRM016936 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:59:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDvUd5000624 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:57:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDvR4g049457; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:57:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GDvP4g049426 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:57:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:55:42 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF64@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] What is going on in this Elizabethan portrait? Thread-Index: AcRpzR+7C2rGWe/dSJeSAZPWltN8QgBb0k1w content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Those are hanging sleeves that are purely decorative. I'm > not sure what you mean by "little black tips around her waist > tabs", though. The only thing I see is the negative space > created by her torso and the dagging of the hanging sleeves. Doh! Now that you mention it, that's obvious, but I too saw them as black tips that appear to be springing out of her sides..... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:07:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GE7iRM016974 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:07:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GE3rd5001297 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:03:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GE3p4g053571; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:03:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GE3m4g053504 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:03:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.11.2e40f90a (3956) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:03:38 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <11.2e40f90a.2e293a3a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:03:38 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 2:07:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > The movie [Girl with the Pear Earring] was filled with eye candy. That mint green bodice with the ruby red skirt....yummy! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:11:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEBORM016985 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:11:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GE81d5001844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:08:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GE804g056016; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:08:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m27.mx.aol.com (imo-m27.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GE7v4g055972 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:07:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1ee.256a5ae8 (2168) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:07:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1ee.256a5ae8.2e293b2e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:07:42 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/04 7:17:06 AM Central Daylight Time, AnnBWass@aol.com writes: I think the costumes in "The Sound of Music" are just atrocious--so very '60s--no effort at all to make them 1930s. And yet I know lots of costumers who are CRAZY about this movie. Awwww, now that's just plain mean!!! I started singing the songs from SOM when I was a toddler with my mom, who loved musicals, and I grew up watching it every time it ever came on TV. Now every time I watch it, I'll be looking at the costumes critically, and I never paid them any mind before! Here, I'm going to get you back for this ... visit this website: http://www.wccusd.k12.ca.us/elcerrito/history/oz.htm ::grin:: (footnote: Incidentally, there is a great deal of debate about whether WOZ was truly intended by Frank Baum as a Populist commentary, or whether the likening of story elements to political considerations actually originated with Henry Littlefield. I personally believe that Littlefield was the point of origin; Baum was known to be pretty apolitical. But it's still really interesting.) -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:11:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEBbRM016988 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:11:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GE7Kd5001774 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:07:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GE7K4g055659; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:07:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GE7F4g055576 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:07:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:06:11 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF65@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] question about European costume book Thread-Index: AcRqB9YT29fnUx3FSgau7AkQtXa1kQBNeZng content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I have the earlier "English Costume." On page 97 > I think your pages are numbered differently than mine. Tehy are two different books by the same author, however she seems to have used some of the pictures/sketches in both books. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:22:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEMhRM017057 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:22:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEHud5002805 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:17:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEHs4g062101; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:17:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f34.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEHp4g062029 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:17:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:17:46 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:17:46 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:17:46 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2004 14:17:46.0719 (UTC) FILETIME=[AAE0D6F0:01C46B3F] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Favorite movie costume... Hm... Historical, male: Dangerous Beauty, any of the "men in the background"'s costumes Haven't found the historical, female one yet :-) But fantasy, female category is any of the offical dresses of (gosh, was she Queen? Princess? I can't remember... but you know who I mean) in Star Wars episode 1... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:22:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEMnRM017060 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:22:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEKCd5003152 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEKA4g063400; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEK54g063369 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:19:05 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] trying to track down Three SCA ladies To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF66@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] trying to track down Three SCA ladies Thread-Index: AcRqcqL077/cgaxESUyYRHbIn261UwAzPfEg content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > One place to try is "The Rolls Etherial" a database that SCA people can > put themselves into http://jducoeur.org/Rolls/ Thanks, one of them is listed there > Another is to post on rec.org.sca I'm trying to figure out if I know them (particularly form any of the cdostume lists I'm on) ratrher than track them down as such. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:25:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEPYRM017078 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:25:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEKjd5003198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEKh4g063703; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEKf4g063646 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sewinggoddess@att.net) Received: from 204.127.135.60 ([204.127.135.60]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc13) with SMTP id <20040716142023113009ti48e>; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:20:24 +0000 Received: from [24.26.111.46] by 204.127.135.60; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:20:34 +0000 From: sewinggoddess@att.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:20:34 +0000 Message-Id: <071620041420.17732.40F7E432000A33E20000454421603831169C9C0A0B0B0109090207990A9C@att.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 27 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: c2V3aW5nZ29kZGVzc0BhdHQubmV0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My favorite of all time is the Ascot Dress Audrey Hepburn wore in My Fair Lady. I just *love* that scene and all the dresses and hats! What ostentatious hats! Crissy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:27:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GERfRM017087 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:27:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEPAd5003560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:25:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEP74g066550; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:25:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from silver.wightman.on.ca (silver.wightman.ca [216.249.0.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEP54g066526 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:25:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lgsteph@wightman.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by silver.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2055B4C9 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from silver.wightman.on.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (silver.wightman.on.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02747-05 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d7k7b6 (unknown [142.46.141.52]) by silver.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with SMTP id 963775B4C4 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003b01c46b41$1e236960$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" References: <200407161300.i6GCxu4h019207@net.indra.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:27:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wightman.ca X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: New embrodieries (OT?) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Saragrace, Thanks for the compliment. I didn't bother with larger images because of this silly digital camera. It almost went sailing out the window I got that frustrated with it! Definitely a case of you get what you pay for. I have to shift the view-finder way off to the right of an object in order to get the thing in the frame. And the resolution isn't great. I'm hoping to purchase a better digital camera later in the year and will then put up larger images. Very frustrating for now, though, as the embroideries are so much more vibrant than what's on the website. Oh farfle. Well, back at working on the Wind embroidery. I'm about sick of white at this point. :-D But am very pleased with how the textural quality of the embroidery is coming along. Really is emulating clouds. Regards Lorina Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery supplies (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:28:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GESqRM017096 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:28:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GELMd5003288 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:21:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GELM4g064177; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:21:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m27.mx.aol.com (imo-m27.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GELA4g063970 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:21:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1d7.26065d21 (3956) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:20:58 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1d7.26065d21.2e293e4a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:20:58 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 4:56:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, freyalynn@yahoo.com writes: > Robin Hood is not a historical figure. The earliest references to him are > in folk songs of the 14/15th Centuries, and he Yes yes. I understand. But the film in question even starts out with the Crusades....so, silly me!...I think that particular version of the legend has a little weight here. It's like "Bram Stoker's Dracula". Personally I think you should place it around the time Bram Stoker wrote it....if you're gonna use his name in the title. [New Yorker's review: "They can't blame this mess on Bram Stoker!"] Plain ol' "Dracula" can be anytime you want. But then, in addition, when you emblazon the screen with 7 ft numbers 1898 and proceed to put everyone in bustles and 1810 waistcoats and Klimt robes, you've screwed up big time....no matter how lovely the designs on their own are. In "Jabberwocky" his girlfriend gives the lead a potato. WHAT? Couldn't props find a turnip? Where did she get a New World veggie in Medieval England???? [It really IS valuable!] Things like this drive me nuts. Mainly because they are easily fixed [potato/turnip] or completely ignore the basic concept of the film. Work together, folks! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:33:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEX6RM017112 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:33:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEVLd5004684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:31:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEVK4g070453; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:31:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEVF4g070375 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:31:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.9.2e3ef5ae (3956) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:31:00 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <9.2e3ef5ae.2e2940a3@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:30:59 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 10:08:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > I think > the costumes in "The Sound of Music" are just atrocious So bad, they're funny. Remember "Thoroughly Modern Millie"? [keeping with Julie Andrews] That was the 1st film I remember even noticing the clothes. They're not bad at all...even if a little 60s. But the Rosalind Russell "Auntie Mame" has zero to do with the 20s, 30s or 40s. Great film though. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:33:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEX8RM017115 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:33:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEUCd5004509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:30:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEUA4g069767; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:30:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEU64g069697 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:30:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.42.52f6b109 (4560) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:29:56 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <42.52f6b109.2e294063@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:29:55 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 10:18:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, audreybmorin2@hotmail.com writes: (gosh, was she Queen? Princess? I can't remember... but you know who I mean) in Star Wars episode 1... Queen Amidala--then Senator whatever in Episode II. Yes, those are neat costumes--I got the paper dolls before I saw the movies. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:34:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEYcRM017119 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:34:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEW3d5004748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:32:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEW24g070940; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:32:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEVx4g070866 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:31:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Widowweeds@cs.com) Received: from Widowweeds@cs.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1c6.1bce9769 (15901) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tlininn (mattdrury.net [68.142.30.226]) by air-id09.mx.aol.com (v100.23) with ESMTP id MAILINID94-3e1d40f7e6ce398; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:31:42 -0400 Message-ID: <005901c46b41$9c853b80$6401a8c0@tlininn> From: "Widow Weeds" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:31:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-AOL-IP: 68.142.30.226 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia Absolutely stunning. She's a lucky bride. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:35:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEZRRM017125 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:35:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEWZd5004782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:32:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEWZ4g071240; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:32:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com (imo-m24.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEWW4g071172 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:32:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.d4.11607079 (4560) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:32:22 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:32:22 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 10:20:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, sewinggoddess@att.net writes: My favorite of all time is the Ascot Dress Audrey Hepburn wore in My Fair Lady. I just *love* that scene and all the dresses and hats! What ostentatious hats! I was very disappointed in her ballgown, though. Of course everything is pretty true to period, but I can't say it's my favorite. Didn't know so much about costume history when the movie came out and expected something more from Cecil Beaton. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:39:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEdVRM017139 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:39:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEZsd5005078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEZq4g073342; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEZm4g073292 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:35:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:34:42 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF67@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Re: Numenorean beards Thread-Index: AcRqr3HDOgcCazrDQhW/lWHwsnsB5QAkiT0Q content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I do not know if he slept in his costume but he did help the > costume designer design it and he repaired the leather > sections himself. According to an interview on one of the DVD's...if I'm recalling correctly - They designed it to LOOK as though he (the character, not the actor playing the role) repaired it himself. they had severl copies of each costume, so if he the actor were doing a repair on one he'd need to do the same work on all the others for the purposes of continuity. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:52:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEqORM017161 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:52:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEphd5006442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:51:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEpe4g083252; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:51:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (IDENT:VXJF/MVuaOezc787+DrpzG+Zqhl3k3i9@isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEpd4g083222 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:51:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.27] (p11.3c01.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.27]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6GEpDP20573 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:51:13 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) In-Reply-To: <87.10ac491e.2e2920f3@aol.com> References: <87.10ac491e.2e2920f3@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0C583526-D738-11D8-B65C-000A95C59FB2@ntw.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:54:33 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bad costume movies-- that's easier for me to recall for some reason. Especially since I just saw one on tv--Giant. At first when I was watching it, I thought they were beautiful '50s dresses, and they were, except that the movie starts out in the '20s. Decade pass and the costumes always look like they are from the '50s. Almost no attempt to look period. But I've noticed that in other period movies from the 1950s and I've always wondered why. Sylrog On Jul 16, 2004, at 6:15 AM, AnnBWass@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/15/2004 11:58:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, > AlbertCat@aol.com writes: > Oooooh...my favorite COSTUME... > Can't think of a favorite off hand, but can I give a least favorite? I > think > the costumes in "The Sound of Music" are just atrocious--so very > '60s--no > effort at all to make them 1930s. And yet I know lots of costumers who > are CRAZY > about this movie. > > Ann Wass > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 10:57:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GEv7RM017186 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:57:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEr8d5006559 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:53:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GEr74g084209; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:53:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web50402.mail.yahoo.com (web50402.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6GEr44g084147 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:53:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040716145259.70186.qmail@web50402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.82.36.102] by web50402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:52:59 PDT Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 07:52:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" Subject: Re: [h-cost] SCA Seargeant/Some medieval prices... To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <11cb01c46b01$bbccd880$0200a8c0@susan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cynthia and Susan, Yup, I'm in An Tir--the Barony of Blatha an Oir, which is Pierce County (Tacoma, Puyallup and so forth) in Washington State. I first heard about the Golden Swan award about the time my son was born, and thought it was a nifty thing to work towards. With the way life kept (keeps?) going on, I set it as a goal for when he was 16 to try to make that event, with a few baby steps before then, like actually joining the Costumer's Guild and participating in those competitions first and Sergeants Trials for the Barony. That way I'm not trying to worry about having Teren taken care of while the event is taking place, as well as everything else (and saving up for the commute-it's held up north in Canada and a long haul there for me). Well, I joined the Guild, but haven't competed there yet-but with Molly's help, she and I have accomplished Master Costumer status for the science fiction/fantasy conventions-and several of our entries there have had more historical inspirations. I might not make that original goal of when Teren is 16, but I'll be in the ball park at least. (He just turned 10 last month) I figure with the help I've had on creating part of my wedding outfit, I can use that as an entry for the Costumer's Guild. :-) Angharad, who should go back to working on those outfits, soon! __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:01:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GF1RRM017204 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:01:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GExOd5007069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:59:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GExK4g088797; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:59:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GExH4g088696 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:59:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.15.2dc646e1 (4206) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:59:08 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <15.2dc646e1.2e29473b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:59:07 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 10:52:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, sylvia@ntw.net writes: > Giant. At first when I was > watching it, I thought they were beautiful '50s dresses, and they were, > except that the movie starts out in the '20s. I worked with the designer of that film. He thinks period costuming is easy because it's just copying portraits. Modern designs are the "real" work for him. I say, then don't do period movies and be a fashion designer if that's what you think. Copying portraits indeed! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:04:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GF4ARM017211 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:04:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GF3Kd5007412 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GF3I4g091729; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GF3E4g091687 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:02:08 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF6A@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher Thread-Index: AcRq+BJrOppM0fm7RyCnr0cAWnpn/gATPs/w content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I hauled out QEWU and typed up the section dealing with > stomachers for > all of you to enjoy. I'm not sure how well this squares with > copyright > laws, but it's for educational purposes and I only intend to have it > available on my site for a few days. At any rate, here it > is: http://www.modehistorique.com/stomachers.html You'd think I'd have noticed this when I read the damn thing! > As for Teddy's skepticism that the V&A stomacher is an actual 16th c. > stomacher, I feel comfortable that it's 16th c. and not a remade item. > When I examined it, it looked to me like it had not been cut down from > an earlier article of clothing, or modified in any way. Just being the > rank amateur that I am, however, that's certainly not conclusive > evidence that I'm correct! However, with Arnold's sources littered > with references to similar items it makes more sense in light of her > evidence. In light of my having completely blanked reading all the references in QEWU, I obviously need to rethink the whole stomacher situation... sheesh! Given they seem (at least in some instances)to be mentioned in regard to specific dresses/bodices, however, I'm still (currently...) leaning toward them being in the same fabric as the bodice they are attached to but more highly decorated so they can be displayed in the open front of the next layer up, rather than being applied *onto* the outer layer of bodice. This could, of course, all be further screwy thinking on my part. Wouldn't be the first time. Thanks for posting details. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:05:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GF5pRM017216 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:05:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GF3Wd5007430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GF3V4g091901; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (IDENT:qYwRqpYKE26rI47WYWkqBgiFuEfrCTz0@isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GF3L4g091762 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:03:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.27] (p11.3c01.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.27]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6GF2sP21281 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:02:54 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) In-Reply-To: <15.2dc646e1.2e29473b@aol.com> References: <15.2dc646e1.2e29473b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:06:14 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Who was the designer? He must be older than sh-- by now. WHen did you work with him? On Jul 16, 2004, at 8:59 AM, AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/16/2004 10:52:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sylvia@ntw.net writes: > >> Giant. At first when I was >> watching it, I thought they were beautiful '50s dresses, and they >> were, >> except that the movie starts out in the '20s. > > I worked with the designer of that film. He thinks period costuming is > easy > because it's just copying portraits. Modern designs are the "real" > work for > him. > > I say, then don't do period movies and be a fashion designer if that's > what > you think. Copying portraits indeed! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:15:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GFFjRM017247 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:15:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFEgd5008383 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:14:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFEe4g099808; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:14:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFEZ4g099764 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:14:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6GFkI5c015548 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:46:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6GFkIin015547 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:46:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407161546.i6GFkIin015547@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF65@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > I have the earlier "English Costume." On page 97 > > > I think your pages are numbered differently than mine. > > Tehy are two different books by the same author, however she seems to > have used some of the pictures/sketches in both books. She also uses them in her Encyclopedia of World Costume as well (but they're not "referenced" in that book like they are in European Costume. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:19:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GFJDRM017266 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:19:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFHSd5008639 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:17:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFHN4g001993; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:17:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (cardassian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.45.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFHJ4g001858 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:17:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from triade@kabelfoon.nl) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0624.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.82.113]) by cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B9ABEA80 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:17:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40F45822.9090303@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:46:10 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress References: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <005901c46b41$9c853b80$6401a8c0@tlininn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > >http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Beautifull!!!! Just one litle thing, on the front panel of the bodice and the one on the panel on the right of that, the pattern is repeating itself. You see two of the same flowers on bothe side of the seems. I would have changed that, it looks odd. Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:35:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GFZERM017319 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:35:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFWsd5010074 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:32:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFWs4g013216; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:32:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web50408.mail.yahoo.com (web50408.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.73]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6GFWW4g012879 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:32:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dragonwolfcat@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040716153226.51338.qmail@web50408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.82.36.102] by web50408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:32:26 PDT Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:32:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Angharad ver' Reynulf" To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <40F70896.1060605@thibault.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Sergeant's Trials WAS SCA Seargeant/Some medieval prices... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cynthia (and any others who may be interested) Here is some of the history behind the creation of Sergeants Trials in An Tir. When An Tir was still a Principality of the Kingdom of the West, it was very difficult for those who were currently Peers (Knights-combat, Laurels-Arts & Sciences, and Pelicans-service) to properly judge how someone could be appropriately considered to be of a level for that Peerage Award. After all, this meant folks from down near San Diego California all the way up the coast through Washington State and then the corresponding portions of Canada were having to consider people they were maybe observing for the very first time at the event the final vote was being cast. Or not even being able to see them, because the person in question couldn't afford to travel to that event! A few of the Peers and Baron/esses got together and worked out the idea of holding these trials, which would have tested the candidate on the several areas to round out a fighter (mentioned earlier) so that if someone was being considered and had passed the trials, the Peers in question would know that they had a sufficient knowledge to round them out. Baron Julian was one of those instigators(and is a member of the Sergeantry of Blatha an Oir, although not active since he is serving elsewhere). I started an Excell document to track the requirements for each event, so that I could use a separate worksheet for each requirement and what I needed to work on. Here is what each requires, without a full listing of each minimum: Golden Swan 12 categories-8 required, choice of any 4 electives: Required-Persona Creation, Calligraphy, Everyday Life, Costuming, Needlework/embellishment, Skills & Technology, Courtesy & Etiquette, Inspirational Behaviour. Electives: Dancing, Games and Pastimes, Bardic Entertainment, Survival Techniques, Food, and Habitat. BAO Sergeant's Trial for a Courtier: Calligraphed Petition, Marshallate, Persona Development, Heraldry, Courtesy & Etiquette, Games, Dance, Entertainment, Military Science, Practical and Domestic Sciences, Geography, Court of Love question, Baroness Question ("Why do you want to be a Sergeant in my Court?"), an Arts as Extra Credit and the Courtier's choice of 2 Arts and Sciences and one Service, 2 Service and one Arts & Sciences, or 1/1/1 Arts & Sciences, Service and Combat entry. Oh, and you have to have a current Sergeant sponsor you. Both are fairly heavy ideals, with several minimums for each category. I've got two of my Arts figured out--Costuming was kind of a given for me, and I'm working out what a standard meal would have been for 14th Century folks in Wales. I can likely use my knowledge of the office as Herald, or of Feast duties for the Service. I simply need to figure out a couple more of Arts and Sciences that I may use, since the ones for Courtier not only need to be completed, with documentation, but I need to be able to teach them to a novice. *ulp* Thank goodness for everything I've learned from folks on this and other lists. Not only the obvious ones like Heather because of the Welsh focus, but Robin on the fitted dresses, Marc for the shoes, Cynthia for the excellent inspirations on headwear and on and on. So even if I don't post a lot, please know that I am eagerly reading this list and learning a LOT! Angharad (gee look, i did it AND kept costume content *grin*) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:36:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GFaJRM017325 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:36:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFWOd5010019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:32:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFWL4g012791; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:32:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (cardassian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.45.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFWH4g012690 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:32:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from triade@kabelfoon.nl) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0624.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.82.113]) by cardassian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9807ABE661 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:32:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40F7F515.6000001@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:32:37 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress References: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <005901c46b41$9c853b80$6401a8c0@tlininn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > >http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Beautifull!!!! Just one litle thing, on the front panel of the bodice and the one on the panel on the right of that, the pattern is repeating itself. You see two of the same flowers on bothe side of the seems. I would have changed that, it looks odd. Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:42:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GFgMRM017346 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:42:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFchd5010570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:38:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFcg4g017326; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:38:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFcb4g017190 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:38:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from FyneHats2@aol.com) Received: from FyneHats2@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1ca.25f42796 (657) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:38:11 -0400 (EDT) From: FyneHats2@aol.com Message-ID: <1ca.25f42796.2e295063@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:38:11 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Favorite movie costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 12:44:25 AM Central Daylight Time, h-costume-request@indra.com writes: > From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com > Subject: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? > > What is everyone's favorite, bar-none, made-me-drool-and-still-does, movie > costume? Can be any genre, any period, any species. > > ....my Absolute Favorite of All Time is her Victorian green > walking suit worn by Winona Ryder as Mina in "Bram Stoker's Dracula." > > I've been collecting the materials to make this gown (for myself, what a > novel concept!) for a couple of years now, and I'm getting close to having > what I > think I need to do it ... except the certainty that I can actually make that > > bustle! LOL When I first started with this idea I thought it was simply > diamond shaped pieces of fabric sewn together, but that was just some > seriously > wishful thinking. I guess I could do it that way and come up with something > that > "looks like" the original, but I don't wanna. > > What are you guys' and gals' all time faves? > > -Tiffany > If you are interested in creating a bustle dress the best place for patterns is Truly Victorian (www.trulyvictorian.com) run by two sisters Laura and Heather MacNaughton in Riverside, California. They have patterns from 1870-1890 and look wonderful when made up. I don't remember exactly Mina's costume (it's been a long time since I've seen that Dracula) but I'm sure something on their site will help. Good luck. Donna Scarfe Fyne Hats By Felicity Period Headgear for Past Ages www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:53:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GFrkRM017372 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:53:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFr0d5012044 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:53:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFqw4g027988; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:52:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFqr4g027943 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:52:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716155253.DRTP1464.out001.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:52:53 -0500 Message-ID: <003a01c46b4c$f614c7a0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:52:55 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:52:53 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Good start of a thread Tiffany! My favorite was the upwards kilt of Mel Gibson in Braveheart... just kidding, but I love that scene :) The costuming of The Cell was fantastico!!! Loved it. I also really liked the costume of Anne Boylen in 6 Wives of Henry the VIII. There have been so many it is hard to pick. I really like the futuristic-renaissance costumes, but have yet to see it done well (somewhere in the distant future all women loose 90% of there clothing, I just don't understand). B ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 7:30 PM Subject: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? > What is everyone's favorite, bar-none, made-me-drool-and-still-does, movie > costume? Can be any genre, any period, any species. > > I seem to be a die-hard Eiko Ishioka fan, because all my runners-up are her > creations for "The Cell" (everything Jennifer Lopez wore in that film was just > amazing to me), and my Absolute Favorite of All Time is her Victorian green > walking suit worn by Winona Ryder as Mina in "Bram Stoker's Dracula." > > I've been collecting the materials to make this gown (for myself, what a > novel concept!) for a couple of years now, and I'm getting close to having what I > think I need to do it ... except the certainty that I can actually make that > bustle! LOL When I first started with this idea I thought it was simply > diamond shaped pieces of fabric sewn together, but that was just some seriously > wishful thinking. I guess I could do it that way and come up with something that > "looks like" the original, but I don't wanna. > > What are you guys' and gals' all time faves? > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:58:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GFw5RM017389 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:58:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFshd5012233 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:54:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFsh4g029340; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:54:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from gold.wightman.on.ca (gold.wightman.ca [216.249.0.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFsa4g029256 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:54:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lgsteph@wightman.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gold.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83BE747716 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d7k7b6 (unknown [142.46.141.52]) by gold.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F58647708 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000901c46b4d$9defaa80$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" References: <200407161533.i6GFX94h013389@net.indra.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:55:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Earth, Wind, Fire embroideries X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO So, instead of working on said embroideries, or painting, or writing, I spent the morning mucking around with this silly digital camera and have come up with some improved (although still not wonderful) images of Earth and Fire, along with larger images. I also uploaded Wind, which is a work in progress, for anyone who's interested. Direct URL is: http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_33.html Regards Lorina Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery supplies (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 11:58:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GFwGRM017392 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:58:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFv1d5012516 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:57:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFux4g031065; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:57:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GFus4g031013 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:56:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716155654.IDPK28276.out007.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:56:54 -0500 Message-ID: <004a01c46b4d$85a603c0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <28.49e76496.2e28a3bd@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:56:56 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:56:54 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur > In a message dated 7/15/2004 10:30:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > > > I believe that art is completely and utterly > > subjective, > > How sad. That's not sad, its very common in Modern Art. How else could someone lable a glass of water an oak, then get paid a bundle for i B > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:05:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GG57RM017426 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:05:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG2pd5013135 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:02:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG2l4g035506; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:02:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG2i4g035468 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:02:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716160243.GOQU15848.out010.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:02:43 -0500 Message-ID: <005201c46b4e$55e8ae70$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <79.2e6f5189.2e28a5b3@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:02:45 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:02:43 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:29 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur > In a message dated 7/15/2004 10:37:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > > > Why do you feel that things that you consider "good" or "awful" simply ARE > > "good" or "awful," and no one else's opinion of them can matter because you > > have > > spoken? > > > > I clearly didn't say this. What I'm saying is that some things ARE better > than others. There are criteria for excellence. It is not totally subjective. > Oh, but it is. What we concider to be 'Great Rennisance Art, others concider old junk. What we concider trashy, can be another societies treasure. If you think that our critera for excellence, as an organization, society or country, is the only one to judge by, you are mistaken. I generally try to take at least one good thing from every experience or event (even found it in Brittany Spears... she makes me laugh), and try to see what the good is. Battleing subjectiveness is a noble cause, just be prepared, subjectivity has been ingrained in most of us since birth. (thank you Frued and Jung) B _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:07:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GG7SRM017436 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:07:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG4vd5013358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:04:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG4r4g037003; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:04:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG4p4g036988 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:04:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716160451.WLHX27801.out008.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:04:51 -0500 Message-ID: <006a01c46b4e$a1efb980$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:04:53 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:04:51 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO OMG .... y'all should come with warnings. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur > Just for the Halibut choose your poisson. :) > > -----Original Message----- > > Only one thing comes to mind: > > > > "One man's fool is another man's king" > > One man's fish is another man's _poisson_. -- Fozzie Bear > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:08:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GG8NRM017440 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:08:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG6pd5013572 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:06:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG6n4g038393; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:06:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG6k4g038356 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:06:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716160645.GPSQ15848.out010.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:06:45 -0500 Message-ID: <007001c46b4e$e6142ec0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <32.4a644555.2e28ac33@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:06:47 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:06:45 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Totally forgot about Sleepy Hollow, loved Christiana Ricci's costumes in it, and the step-mothers. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? > Oooooh...my favorite COSTUME... > > That is nearly impossible. But let's see..... > > I like the 18th century so I'm partial to Glenn Close's yellow and black > traveling outfit in "Dangerous Liaisons"....but I also love Swoozie Kurtz's cherry > pink and white brocade gown with the stomacher that is a fan of ribbon loops. > [That's James Acheson] > > I also love the gown Miranda Richardson wears when she cuts her sister's head > off in "Sleepy Hollow". It's so weird. It has respect for the period but is > just made up....a wonderful fantasy collar and this apron with long heavy > fringe. It's on camera for about a 10th of a second so get the DVD and hit the > pause button. [That's Coleen Atwood] > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:10:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGAdRM017449 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:10:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG72d5013602 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:07:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GG714g038564; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:07:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6GG6x4g038478 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:07:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OgDN2zvfSTMdBgwfT6r+S0E= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J2N2B5CP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:06:30 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:00:43 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress Message-ID: <20040716.090604.992.2.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh WOW. How beautiful! Arlys ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:12:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGC8RM017454 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:12:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGA5d5014002 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:10:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGA24g040963; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:10:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGA04g040868 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:10:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.148.2e6b0855 (4206) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:09:51 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <148.2e6b0855.2e2957cf@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:09:51 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:05:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, sylvia@ntw.net writes: > Who was the designer? He must be older than sh-- by now. WHen did you > work with him? > Moss Mabry. He did Liz's clothes in a lot of films... like Maggie the Cat's stuff, that famous slip.... and he did James Dean films....yes "Rebel Without a Cause"...that famous jacket. I worked with him on "Florida Straits" a lousy HBO film. That was in the late 80s. He was an old man then. He was actually very charming but my colleague and I had to do the whole show. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:16:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGG4RM017461 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:16:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGEVd5014491 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:14:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGER4g044341; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:14:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGEP4g044233 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:14:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.158.39dc245b (4206) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:14:14 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <158.39dc245b.2e2958d6@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:14:14 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:57:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > How else could someone lable > a glass of water an oak, then get paid a bundle for i > > One last time.....money has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Getting paid a bundle does not make it art. Just because there's a sucker born every minute does not make anything art. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:21:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGLJRM017479 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:21:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGJgd5015025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:19:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGJg4g048275; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:19:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGJc4g048234 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:19:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716161937.OLVO3910.out005.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:19:37 -0500 Message-ID: <00d301c46b50$b216f060$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> <40F7DE64.4040401@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:19:39 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:19:37 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I prefer JD's Pirate costume off, personally. Yowser!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Clemenger" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 6:55 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? > I haven't had enough tea yet this morning to get all of my brain cells > firing at the right time, but my favorite costume, at the moment, would > have to be the garden dress that Michelle Pfeiffer wear in _Dangerous > Liaisons_. I also have a strong fondness for the needlework on the > hobbits' shirt in RoTK. > Uhm, and, well, the pirate outfit that Johnny Depp wore . Especially > with Depp *in* it! ;-D > --sue, who's slowly collecting fabric for a couple of outfits, but they > aren't movie-based.... > > Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: > > > What is everyone's favorite, bar-none, made-me-drool-and-still-does, movie > > costume? Can be any genre, any period, any species. > > > > I seem to be a die-hard Eiko Ishioka fan, because all my runners-up are her > > creations for "The Cell" (everything Jennifer Lopez wore in that film was just > > amazing to me), and my Absolute Favorite of All Time is her Victorian green > > walking suit worn by Winona Ryder as Mina in "Bram Stoker's Dracula." > > > > I've been collecting the materials to make this gown (for myself, what a > > novel concept!) for a couple of years now, and I'm getting close to having what I > > think I need to do it ... except the certainty that I can actually make that > > bustle! LOL When I first started with this idea I thought it was simply > > diamond shaped pieces of fabric sewn together, but that was just some seriously > > wishful thinking. I guess I could do it that way and come up with something that > > "looks like" the original, but I don't wanna. > > > > What are you guys' and gals' all time faves? > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:21:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGLZRM017483 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:21:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGIad5014922 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:18:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGIX4g047249; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:18:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out009.verizon.net (out009pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGIV4g047219 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:18:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out009.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716161830.BSVP29216.out009.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:18:30 -0500 Message-ID: <00c301c46b50$8a63ab80$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF5C@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:18:32 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:18:30 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey I resemble that remark ... GRRR, I'll bite your ankles. B (known as just 'the hobbit' in some circles) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teddy" To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 6:04 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT > > > One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle > > Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. > > Or hobbit-powered clippers. Just plug in to a handy hobbit and away you > go.... > > Sorry. Couldn't resist > > Teddy > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:25:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGPORM017490 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:25:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGMkd5015438 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:22:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGMk4g051003; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:22:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGMg4g050957 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:22:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6GGJL8Z001842 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:19:22 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Earth, Wind, Fire embroideries Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:24:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <000901c46b4d$9defaa80$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lorina -- Thank you so much for sharing that link. Your work takes my breath away! Talia > http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/dept_33.html > > Regards > Lorina > Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage > fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & > embroidery > supplies > (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:26:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGQ1RM017494 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:26:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGMxd5015475 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:23:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGMx4g051159; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:22:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGMp4g051071 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:22:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716162250.JZHI1551.out004.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:22:50 -0500 Message-ID: <00e901c46b51$254c58e0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:22:52 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:22:50 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I preferred her dress in SW2 when they are in the field, it is so beautifully colored and flowing.. and I'm not usually one for pastels. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 7:17 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? > Favorite movie costume... > Hm... > Historical, male: Dangerous Beauty, any of the "men in the background"'s > costumes > Haven't found the historical, female one yet :-) > > But fantasy, female category is any of the offical dresses of (gosh, was she > Queen? Princess? I can't remember... but you know who I mean) in Star Wars > episode 1... > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:26:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGQeRM017498 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:26:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGLmd5015321 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:21:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGLl4g050143; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:21:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGLh4g050091 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:21:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716162138.XXRT18566.out011.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:21:38 -0500 Message-ID: <00e101c46b50$fa56ba40$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <11.2e40f90a.2e293a3a@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:21:40 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:21:38 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I do have to say it was my most enjoyed homework assignment yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 7:03 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vermeer > In a message dated 7/16/2004 2:07:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, > queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > > > The movie [Girl with the Pear Earring] was filled with eye candy. > > > That mint green bodice with the ruby red skirt....yummy! > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:28:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGS2RM017505 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:28:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGPJd5015714 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:25:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGPG4g052949; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:25:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGPE4g052915 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:25:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716162512.SWZU9273.out002.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:25:12 -0500 Message-ID: <00fb01c46b51$79d98cc0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <9.2e3ef5ae.2e2940a3@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:25:14 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:25:12 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO How can one forget Totally Modern Millie, I almost wet myself when she burst out of her corset, because I too, cannot get my beads to hang straight :) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? > In a message dated 7/16/2004 10:08:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > > > I think > > the costumes in "The Sound of Music" are just atrocious > > So bad, they're funny. > > Remember "Thoroughly Modern Millie"? [keeping with Julie Andrews] That was > the 1st film I remember even noticing the clothes. They're not bad at all...even > if a little 60s. > > But the Rosalind Russell "Auntie Mame" has zero to do with the 20s, 30s or > 40s. Great film though. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:37:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGbURM017540 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:37:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGY2d5016591 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:34:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGY04g059628; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:34:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGXu4g059574 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:33:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlVek-00079H-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:33:54 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:33:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c46b52$b23e8ab0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Leather suppliers in LA Textile district? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO We will be going shopping in the fashion district this upcoming week. Anyone recommend a supplier for leather hides ? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 12:46:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GGkhRM017578 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:46:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGhMd5017606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:43:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGhH4g067263; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:43:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGhE4g067212 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:43:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-03.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6GGhBjE017659 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:43:11 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Leather suppliers in LA Textile district? Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:44:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <000001c46b52$b23e8ab0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This isn't in the garment district, but it's about an hour away from there. WELL worth the trip -- it's a huge warehouse filled floor to ceiling with hides of every color and type. Even though I've been there several times, it always amazes me. They are also up in Napa, not far from San Francisco. Great quality, nice people, and they know their leather. The Hide and Leather House San Dimas, CA 870 W. Cienega Avenue #7 San Dimas, CA 91773 U.S. Order Toll Free: 866-LA-SKINS Fax: 909-592-3332 International Orders: 909-592-3311 > > We will be going shopping in the fashion district this upcoming week. > Anyone recommend a supplier for leather hides ? > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 13:02:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GH24RM017662 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:02:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GH1Id5019621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:01:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GH1F4g081284; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:01:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GH1C4g081228 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:01:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.175] (pm5-175.eos.net [205.133.149.175]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GH10EM010148 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:01:01 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:58:42 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407160542.i6G5gp4h033678@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: favorite movie costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Gene Wilder's purple coat in "Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory." Yes, an early influence. Gail Finke PS: I like the costumes in The Sound of Music! You're right, no bearing on reality. But I still like them. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 13:05:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GH5RRM017667 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:05:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGwnd5019269 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:58:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGwm4g079227; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:58:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.uaf.edu (ursus.uaf.edu [137.229.18.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GGwh4g079157 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:58:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ffalf@uaf.edu) Received: from uaf.edu ([137.229.64.42]) by smtp.uaf.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11/uaf3) with ESMTP id i6GGvo3c522157 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:57:51 -0800 (AKDT) Message-ID: <40F80908.8000408@uaf.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:57:44 -0800 From: Anne Foster User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com References: <200407160239.i6G2dl4g048426@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407160239.i6G2dl4g048426@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] preservation and cleaning X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Unless you are absolutely sure of the fiber contents, have no concerns over color bleeding, and have no holes or tears to contend with, I would recommend NOT washing the item at all. Quilters do use Orvus paste with new quilts and some are brave enough to try with older ones, but I have seen colors run in even mid-century all-cotton quilts. Dry cleaning, even those advertised as "preservation cleaning" for wedding dresses uses harsh chemicals that could shred your fabric. It will also leave a residue that will increase future deterioration. Museums generally use a special vacuum to clean their fabrics. You can mimic this by putting a nylon over your hose and/or covering the fabric with a clean (new) window screen with bound edges. Be sure to test even this amount of suction on an unobtrusive area before tackling the whole dress. If there are loose bits or trim, you may need to hand baste these down first. If you feel the dress would be strong enough to tackle water immersion be sure to spot test all the fabrics and dyes first in unobtrusive places. Store the item in an acid-free box, buffered with acid-free tissue. If you have to fold the cloth or there are pleats and gathers, round out the folds with acid-free tissue. Store the item out of light (especially sunlight and flourescent lights) in relatively constant temperature and humidity. There are many sources for the archival boxes, but you might try Gaylord Brothers as they also publish small conservation information pamphlets and will send them to you free (the pamphlets, of course, tout their products but the info. is still valid). You might also consult your local museum for further information, supply catalogs, and help with particularly tricky problems. Anne Foster Archivist and former Museum Director _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 13:17:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GHHERM017711 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:17:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHEgd5021005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHEa4g091517; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (IDENT:fen54LDX5BSJ/imNApWHOwfuSY1SIKS8@isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHEX4g091484 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.162] (p02.3c04.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.162]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6GHE5P30665 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:14:05 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:11:23 -0600 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? From: Sylvia To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <148.2e6b0855.2e2957cf@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I had a somewhat similar experience while working as a draper with a designer who had lost much of his sight. He had to hold fabrics very close to his eyes to see them and he almost always had his assistant with him to do the actual looking at of costumes on stage. At one time he had been able to do good renderings, but by this time I don't think he could draw anymore, so he hired a sketcher who basically just copied designs from books. We had to redesign a number of his garments. Sylrog > From: AlbertCat@aol.com > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:09:51 EDT > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? > > In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:05:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sylvia@ntw.net writes: > >> Who was the designer? He must be older than sh-- by now. WHen did you >> work with him? >> > > Moss Mabry. He did Liz's clothes in a lot of films... like Maggie the Cat's > stuff, that famous slip.... and he did James Dean films....yes "Rebel Without > a > Cause"...that famous jacket. I worked with him on "Florida Straits" a lousy > HBO film. That was in the late 80s. He was an old man then. He was actually > very charming but my colleague and I had to do the whole show. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 13:32:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GHWhRM017781 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:32:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHV8d5022584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:31:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHV44g004320; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:31:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHV24g004217 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:31:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.36.5d276b5e (4206) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:30:51 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <36.5d276b5e.2e296acb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:30:51 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 12:03:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > If you > think that our critera for excellence, as an organization, society or > country, is the only one to judge by, you are mistaken. So home movies are just as good as studio pictures. Highschool play costuming is to be judged just like Broadway. IOW, you believe that there is nothing more to being professional or a master than opinions. I don't think that's true. You know there ARE subjective elements to art and excellence [and everything else] but it is not completely subjective. You must be young. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 13:42:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GHgLRM017824 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:42:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHcEd5023277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:38:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHc84g009613; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:38:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51305.mail.yahoo.com (web51305.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6GHc64g009525 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:38:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040716173801.30275.qmail@web51305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.172.50] by web51305.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:38:01 PDT Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:38:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <200407151941.i6FJfBvG006313@sabre.goldsword.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Rayon X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > rayon is a natural fiber -- it is made from > cellulose. It is not natural > in that the process to produce it is a man-made (aka > chemical) one as > opposed to cleaning cotton fruits or retting flax > stems. > > Jerusha Oil is natural, too, but I kind of doubt you find polyester(s) (hydrophobic) or nylon(s) (hydrophilic) natural. Rayon is a SYNTHETIC fiber. That's what producing with a man-made (aka chemical) process Is. Now, rayon is hydrophilic polymer, not thermoplastic, burns (how well depending on which process made it), and has a lot of other properties, but none of them make it 'natural'. Ann in CT __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 13:44:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GHiARM017828 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:44:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHgcd5023656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:42:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHgc4g013046; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:42:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51308.mail.yahoo.com (web51308.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6GHga4g012960 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:42:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040716174231.12351.qmail@web51308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.172.50] by web51308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:42:31 PDT Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:42:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] faille X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I believe faille is ribbed, not by any extra fancy weaving or weaving elements in it, but just by having a thick weft, and having the narrower warp fibers packed closely together, so the weft doesn't show. Grograin ribbon is made the same way, only skinny. Ann in CT __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 13:48:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GHmwRM017918 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:48:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHlPd5024118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:47:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHlN4g016441; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:47:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from softwareinnovation.com (w002.z064000176.dfw-tx.dsl.cnc.net [64.0.176.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GHlI4g016332 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:47:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from betsy@softwareinnovation.com) Received: from theforce ([64.0.176.13]) by softwareinnovation.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:46:39 -0500 From: "Betsy Marshall" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:47:19 -0500 Message-ID: <005901c46b5c$f0c8a0e0$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <158.39dc245b.2e2958d6@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2004 17:46:39.0887 (UTC) FILETIME=[D93A81F0:01C46B5C] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO So, what does make it "ART"? Curious minds are listening to learn! Betsy -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:14 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:57:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > How else could someone lable > a glass of water an oak, then get paid a bundle for i > > One last time.....money has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Getting paid a bundle does not make it art. Just because there's a sucker born every minute does not make anything art. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:20:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GIKTRM018554 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:20:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIHad5027451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:17:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIHR4g039637; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:17:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIHO4g039547 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:17:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716181722.LFLG1551.out004.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:17:22 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c46b61$2546c050$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <158.39dc245b.2e2958d6@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:17:24 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:17:21 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO LMAO, duh. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur > In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:57:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, > queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > > > How else could someone lable > > a glass of water an oak, then get paid a bundle for i > > > > > > One last time.....money has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. > Getting paid a bundle does not make it art. Just because there's a sucker born every > minute does not make anything art. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:21:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GILvRM018598 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:21:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIJbd5027652 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:19:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIJb4g041283; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:19:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIJW4g041218 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:19:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716181930.UUVG6671.out003.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:19:30 -0500 Message-ID: <002301c46b61$71c6a4e0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <005901c46b5c$f0c8a0e0$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:19:33 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:19:30 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ironically it is the intent to make it art that makes it art. And yes, it is because the artists "says so", just because one person may not think it is art, does not mean it isn't art. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Betsy Marshall" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:47 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] King Arthur > So, what does make it "ART"? > Curious minds are listening to learn! > Betsy > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > On Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:14 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur > > In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:57:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, > queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > > > How else could someone lable > > a glass of water an oak, then get paid a bundle for i > > > > > > One last time.....money has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. > Getting paid a bundle does not make it art. Just because there's a > sucker born every > minute does not make anything art. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:24:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GIO6RM018665 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:24:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIKQd5027748 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:20:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIKQ4g041962; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:20:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIKG4g041840 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:20:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scourney@nwlink.com) Received: from susan (ip157.usw235.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [207.202.235.157]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 6DB8E325FB for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <132e01c46b62$7a29e6f0$0200a8c0@susan> From: "Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <005901c46b5c$f0c8a0e0$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:26:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO To me, good Modern Art is something that makes you think. Something that takes you outside of your normal frame of mind to consider something different or from a different angle. How good it is (to me) is how well it does this. This is obviously very subjective, as something that speaks to me may not speak to someone else. Out of context, labeling a glass of water an oak isn't going to do it. In context, it might. Susan in Bellevue > So, what does make it "ART"? > Curious minds are listening to learn! > Betsy > > In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:57:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, > queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > > > How else could someone lable > > a glass of water an oak, then get paid a bundle for i > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:25:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GIPoRM018718 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:25:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIOxd5028143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:24:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIOw4g045132; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:24:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIOp4g045059 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:24:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716182451.UWKO6671.out003.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:24:51 -0500 Message-ID: <005b01c46b62$31000b30$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <005901c46b5c$f0c8a0e0$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> <132e01c46b62$7a29e6f0$0200a8c0@susan> Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:24:53 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:24:50 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, it is art, subjective or not. Can't recall which gallery it was in (museum of modern art in ny?) but it was there, covered all sorts of odd artwork like that in modern art theory. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur > To me, good Modern Art is something that makes you think. Something that > takes you outside of your normal frame of mind to consider something > different or from a different angle. How good it is (to me) is how well it > does this. This is obviously very subjective, as something that speaks to > me may not speak to someone else. Out of context, labeling a glass of water > an oak isn't going to do it. In context, it might. > > Susan in Bellevue > > > > So, what does make it "ART"? > > Curious minds are listening to learn! > > Betsy > > > > In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:57:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > > > > > How else could someone lable > > > a glass of water an oak, then get paid a bundle for i > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:26:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GIQaRM018733 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:26:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GINwd5028051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:23:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GINv4g044396; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:23:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GINr4g044266 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:23:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.102.4a12ac37 (4206) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:23:39 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <102.4a12ac37.2e29772b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:23:39 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:47:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, betsy@softwareinnovation.com writes: > So, what does make it "ART"? > Now that is an elusive quality....but some concrete things you can sight are, fine workmanship, a master at whatever craft, confidence, a kind of coherence and a concept that follows through, an understanding of the subject and an effect that makes you look or feel or think differently about the subject of the piece. [Do you look at sunflowers the same after Van Gogh?] It's transcendent....which is why an old dead white guy can still affect people. But that's not all there is. Sometimes even these elements don't come together. But it certainly is more than liking or not liking a color. The thing about modern art is time hasn't weeded out the crap. [The very fact that this happens shoots down the totally subjective argument] You must make an effort to do that yourself. Another thing about modern times is the making of ART as art. Do you think all those old paintings in museums were painted to hang in museums? They made to decorate churches, temples, public buildings and homes. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:28:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GISIRM018775 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:28:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIPgd5028218 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:25:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIPf4g045625; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:25:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from copper.wightman.on.ca (copper.wightman.ca [216.249.0.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIPc4g045575 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:25:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lgsteph@wightman.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by copper.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62CE23F910 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d7k7b6 (unknown [142.46.141.52]) by copper.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with SMTP id 154AC3F909 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000901c46b62$b6bfb2c0$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" References: <200407161801.i6GI104h027301@net.indra.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:28:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20010714 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: what is art? (was King Arthur) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'll wade into this one being as I'm avoiding the studio for some reason. My personal definition of art is an emotional or provocative dialogue between the viewer/reader/whatever and the item. Now I know this leaves things wide open to interpretation, but I suppose that's how it should be. I can appreciate and be involved in Michelangelo's Pieta, just as I can in Van Gogh's Starry Night, or in the immense minimalist painting which caused to much controversy in Canada, Pillar of Fire. There are technical and artistic merits in all of these works, in my opinion. There is very much a dialogue going on between artist and viewer. Further, I firmly believe the painter/writer/sculptor/designer has to have put something of him/herself into the work. A part of their own paradigm or view of the universe has to have been imbued in that vignette, that time capsule. I don't think water in a glass called Oak cuts it. Sorry. Neither do I think a white gessoed canvas does it either. And I don't think haute couture or art or literature for the sake of shock effect fits in this definition. We are dealing with something far more subtle than the simple orgasmic copout of shock effect. To continue with that sexual metaphor, art should be about the foreplay that leads to climax (enlightenment). It's the process. Not the endorphins that flood as a result of the act. I don't know if this makes any sense whatever, or if it's just too far out in flaky-land to be effectively communicative. Regards Lorina (who really must get back into the studio) Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery supplies (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:38:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GIcNRM019069 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:38:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIaUd5029266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:36:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIaR4g053285; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:36:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIaP4g053236 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:36:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bef2.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.242]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 431CF47FE16 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:36:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <007901c46b63$d8120350$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000901c46a9a$f65db260$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711><005901c46b41$9c853b80$6401a8c0@tlininn> <40F7F515.6000001@kabelfoon.nl> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:36:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Deredere, Yes you are right about this, i hate it, but it was because i was very carefull not to use two much fabric. Wished i could have made it over again, but two late now. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deredere Galbraith" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenia's weddingdress > > > > > >http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > > > Beautifull!!!! > Just one litle thing, on the front panel of the bodice and the one on > the panel on the right of that, the pattern is repeating itself. > You see two of the same flowers on bothe side of the seems. > I would have changed that, it looks odd. > > Greetings, > Deredere > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:43:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GIhkRM019200 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:43:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIh0d5000172 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:43:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIgu4g058035; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:42:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.181]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6GIgq4g057993 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:42:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.34.40 with login) by smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 2004 18:42:50 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040716124950.01e274a0@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:50:29 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book In-Reply-To: <200407161546.i6GFkIin015547@sabre.goldsword.com> References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF65@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> <200407161546.i6GFkIin015547@sabre.goldsword.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A robin on my front step spoke in the voice of Susan Farmer, and said: >She also uses them in her Encyclopedia of World Costume as well (but they're >not "referenced" in that book like they are in European Costume. > >Jerusha Forgive me, but I've misplaced the original post. Who is the author of this book? Thanks, Genie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:44:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GIijRM019226 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:44:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIhRd5000263 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:43:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIhR4g058516; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:43:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.181]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6GIgs4g058018 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:42:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.34.40 with login) by smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 2004 18:42:52 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040716125143.01d8b988@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:11:35 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: OT: re: King Arthur In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A robin on my front step spoke in the voice of Marc Carlson, and said: >>Actually Bach was considered "old Fashioned" even in his lifetime. He was 3rd >>in line for one of his posts...after Handel and one of his day's most popular >>composers [and to this day, the one who's written more works than just about >>anyone] Telemann. Ever heard of him? Yes, I have.... Music major and all that... Actually, Bach rarely wrote his religious music to sell it. He wrote music for the churches (there were three of them) that he worked for. J.S. Bach, that is... He was also rather eclectic in his day. He experimented with not only his local German styles, but also the Italian (all the diverse styles included), English, and French as well. He was well liked, and that is why we have secular music by him that is in published form. He somehow found time to write secular music around the weekly demand for music that could be reproduced in the very poor, middle class, and wealthy churches he worked for. That is someone who lived, breathed, and dreamed music. He was old fashioned, and he was very forward thinking at the same time. His son, Johann Christian, as works that over lap in style, but JC Bach was more secular in his patron. >If memory serves, and I may well be mistaken as music is not my strong >point, I was under the impression that Bach was pretty much considered a >lousy hack during his life - at least by the critics. They certainly >didn't see "art" in what he was doing. He wrote what would sell and feed >his large family. Any "art" in his work has been found there in the years >after his death. Everyone has his critics. But, yes, that's why he was known only for his "Well Tempered Clavier" and other piano music for so long until he was re-discovered. >>What does being dead and white have to do with anything? [people always bring >>this up when discussing classical music] Stravinsky is a 20th century >>composer so he was "great" while alive. These composers are considered >>art today not >>because they still sell, but because their art still has relevance and still >>speaks to people. [most film composers would be lost without >>Stravinsky....and >>Bartok and Holst and Tchaikovsky, and.....and....] It wasn't "pop" music and >>never has been. One confusion that a lot of people make, is that the well known 'classical' music is all that was written at the time. Not true, there was still the popular fads of music. The problem is, since there wasn't recording then, as there is now, that stuff never got written down, and published in anthologies, unless the person had the money to publish it, or their patron wanted it published. Bach was lost in the record rooms of his church for about a century or so, and then "discovered" by the romantics. That's why we see so much of it now, they loved him, so they published every piece they could find that was his. On the other hand, it really is true, that not until Stravinsky and his contemporaries did non-European sounds become part of the music sound. That's when the sounds of Bali, Africa, and other "colonial" countries become considered "civilized" enough to be interesting. (By the way, it's also when these countries started demanding their freedoms that they were considered anything more than savages, thus interesting enough to be considered neat sounds for music). I haven't been following this thread, but I had to pipe up, when I heard the comments about Bach and his contemporaries. Hope I haven't re-opened a can of worms... Genie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 14:56:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GIuIRM019444 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:56:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIsQd5001298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:54:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIsP4g066325; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:54:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIsN4g066281 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:54:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bef2.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.242]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 3959F262855 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:54:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <00d401c46b66$5cb6b310$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:54:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, As Deredere mentioned, i have a bad pattern repeat in the bodice of the weddingdress i make. I am not happy with it, and i made it because i wanted to save as much fabric as possible. (hates when i need more fabric than i have) The whole bodice is compleated, but would you consider it impossible to replace the piece in the bodice. I have plenty of fabric left. It is the center front bodice piece. I was thinking that i could gently take up the seams in the sides and then i perhaps could handstitch the new piece into the bodice? It is fully lined. Surely would much rather sit and sew one extra night, if i could make it better. What do you think? Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:00:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GJ0KRM019469 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:00:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GInnd5000844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:49:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GInk4g063088; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:49:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIne4g063028 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:49:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.122] (pm7-122.eos.net [205.133.149.122]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GInaEM013720 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:49:36 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:47:17 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407160240.i6G2eo4h048952@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 533 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO on 7/15/04 10:40 PM, Tiffany wrote: > ??? Surely King John doesn't appear in *all* versions of the Robin Hood > legend? > Not that I was terribly impressed by the film myself, but that seems an > odd reason for condemning it. > > > I agree with this. Robin Hood is really far more legend than fact anyways > (as is the Arthurian legend), so what's the point in hating it because it's > not > historically accurate? Because, Tiffany, there's a difference between "not historically accurate" and "absurd." There's no way the Sheriff of Nottingham could ever, at any time in history, have become King of England. If someone wants to make up new adventures for Robin Hood, that's one thing. If someone wants to invent a tired pop-psych complex for him (his father remarrying after his mother's death), that's of dubious taste but most people would consider it a valid option for a storyteller. But if anyone is going to have the Sherrif of Nottingham try to usurp the throne -- well, then he deserves all the ridicule he gets. IMHO. Ditto for the folks at Disney making Cardinal Richelieu try to become king of France. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:04:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GJ48RM019559 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:04:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIwKd5001676 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:58:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIwJ4g069167; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:58:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GIwE4g069093 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:58:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ailith@neo.rr.com) Received: from duncan (dhcp024-209-056-164.neo.rr.com [24.209.56.164]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6GIw9Ve006478 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00eb01c46b66$d3475480$1902a8c0@duncan> From: "ailith" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407160239.i6G2dl4g048426@net.indra.com> <40F80908.8000408@uaf.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:57:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: preservation and cleaning X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks so much, everyone. She does appreciate the advice! I'll let you know how it turns out. kate _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:05:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GJ5ZRM019617 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:05:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJ4Xd5002095 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:04:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJ4W4g074127; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:04:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m16.mx.aol.com (imo-m16.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.206]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJ4P4g073997 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:04:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.6d.2e6de4ce (16930) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:04:14 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <6d.2e6de4ce.2e2980ae@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:04:14 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Rayon To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:38:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, elvestoorder@yahoo.com writes: Oil is natural, too, but I kind of doubt you find polyester(s) (hydrophobic) or nylon(s) (hydrophilic) natural. Rayon is a SYNTHETIC fiber. That's what producing with a man-made (aka chemical) process Is. Rayon is chemicallly cellulose, pure and simple--petroleum products aren't made into fibers directly. The rayon is dissolved in a chemical solution, basically, then extracted into fibers. I had trouble not calling rayon synthetic, but most textiles people I know do call it manufactured, but not synthetic, for that reason. The cellulose is chemically identical to any other cellulose--not changed at all. Unlike acetate, which is acetylated cellulose. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:08:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GJ8rRM019715 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:08:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJ5pd5002212 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:05:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJ5o4g075120; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:05:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com (imo-m15.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.205]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJ5k4g075040 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:05:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.149.2e22a405 (16930) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:05:39 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <149.2e22a405.2e298103@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:05:39 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] faille To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:43:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, elvestoorder@yahoo.com writes: but just by having a thick weft, and having the narrower warp fibers packed closely together, so the weft doesn't show. Right--with a thick weft and thin warp yarns, the thread count is pretty much assured to be uneven, isn't it--lots more threads packed in the warp than the weft--but still a plain weave fabric. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:10:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GJA6RM019724 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:10:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJ9Bd5002506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:09:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJ994g077436; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:09:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJ964g077339 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:09:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.159.3a011cb0 (16930) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:08:58 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <159.3a011cb0.2e2981c9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:08:57 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] preservation and cleaning To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I agree that "do nothing" is generally the best advice. Certainly if anything is perceived to have a great value--whether monetary or sentimental, you should handle it as little as possible, until you can afford the services of a professional. Only suggested cleaning since this seems to be white cotton, which should be able to hold up, and since the owner really thinks it looks objectionable as is. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:18:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GJInRM019805 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:18:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJFKd5002897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:15:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJFH4g081629; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:15:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJFE4g081593 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:15:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlYAr-0001XG-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:15:13 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:15:18 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c46b69$3b5e7240$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <00d401c46b66$5cb6b310$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6GJFE4g081593 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Eeeks, its hard to tell without seeing it. When you say take up the seams in the sides do you mean take out the seams holding the center piece in? Is there braid or trim which might hide a piece laid in? Also, remember you have a very critical eye to your own work. Maybe you could post a picture and let the general populace give you an opinion as to whether it is bad enough to mess with... Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:28:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GJSgRM019835 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:28:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJPNd5003698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:25:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJPJ4g088391; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:25:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from silver.wightman.on.ca (silver.wightman.ca [216.249.0.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJPG4g088363 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:25:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lgsteph@wightman.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by silver.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6F15B4CC for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from silver.wightman.on.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (silver.wightman.on.ca [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10240-06 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d7k7b6 (unknown [142.46.141.52]) by silver.wightman.on.ca (Postfix) with SMTP id C01D45B4C9 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000701c46b6b$0d4ded20$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" References: <200407161906.i6GJ694h075393@net.indra.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:28:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at wightman.ca X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re:replacing a bodice piece. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is your work, Bjarne, and your reputation. If there is something about the work that dissatisfies you, then change it. I think it's worth it, and I've been known to do exactly the same sort of thing myself. I do believe that's what some people call craftsmanship. :-) Regards Lorina Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery supplies (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:36:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GJa4RM019878 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:36:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJUQd5004227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:30:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJUN4g092145; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:30:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from indirectobject.com (066-241-084-045.bus.ashlandfiber.net [66.241.84.45]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJUL4g092084 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:30:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rreed@indirectobject.com) Message-Id: <200407161930.i6GJUL4g092084@net.indra.com> Received: from synergy ([192.168.1.1]) by indirectobject.com (WWW [192.168.1.200]) (MDaemon.PRO.v6.8.5.R) with ESMTP id 28-md50000000015.tmp for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:29:22 -0700 From: To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:29:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <00d401c46b66$5cb6b310$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcRrZr5+zUovjoq3Sga0gXtA9ayLtgAA+uVg X-Spam-Processed: WWW, Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:29:22 -0700 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.1.1 X-Return-Path: rreed@indirectobject.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: h-costume@indra.com Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hmmm, now that someone pointed out the match was off, it would bother me too. If it were me, I would replace the panel, but I'm a perfectionist. However, the gown is breathtaking whether or not you change the panel; only us costume fanatics would notice such a thing... Let us know what you're going to do. Didn't you say you had a week left? Becky -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:55 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. Hi, As Deredere mentioned, i have a bad pattern repeat in the bodice of the weddingdress i make. I am not happy with it, and i made it because i wanted to save as much fabric as possible. (hates when i need more fabric than i have) The whole bodice is compleated, but would you consider it impossible to replace the piece in the bodice. I have plenty of fabric left. It is the center front bodice piece. I was thinking that i could gently take up the seams in the sides and then i perhaps could handstitch the new piece into the bodice? It is fully lined. Surely would much rather sit and sew one extra night, if i could make it better. What do you think? Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 15:40:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GJefRM019892 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:40:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJYkd5004593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:34:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJYi4g095265; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:34:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from myway.com (nn8.excitenetwork.com [207.159.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GJYe4g095175 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:34:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from emmajean@myway.com) Received: by mprdmxin.myway.com (Postfix, from userid 110) id 771483A11; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:34:30 -0400 (EDT) To: h-costume@indra.com Received: from [142.161.158.239] by mprdmailfe2.nwk.myway.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:34:30 EST X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: ID = 6a2762daf0c66411aa99a8e5ec2e303e From: "Wendy" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: emmajean@myway.com X-Mailer: PHP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040716193430.771483A11@mprdmxin.myway.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:34:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: favourite movie costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It's not an historical movie, per se, but it was done in 1936: Dorothy Lamour in Jungle Princess. The fully beaded dress with a thin strip between her breasts, even though her breasts were very exposed, that thin strip made the dress "modest" for the censors. Holy Moley, is it sexy, yet still elegant. Wendy www.hecate.ca/emma/ _______________________________________________ No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 16:19:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GKJURM020058 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:19:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GKHHd5008360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:17:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GKHE4g026696; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:17:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GKH74g026587 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:17:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bef2.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.242]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 43C2E262822 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:17:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c46b71$ed46c090$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000e01c46b69$3b5e7240$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:17:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I uploaded a picture where you can se it. There are 2 tulips and 2 roses two close to eachother. I could take up the seam and replace the center front (stomacher) piece. http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xen Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. > Eeeks, its hard to tell without seeing it. When you say take up the seams > in the sides do you mean take out the seams holding the center piece in? Is > there braid or trim which might hide a piece laid in? > > Also, remember you have a very critical eye to your own work. Maybe you > could post a picture and let the general populace give you an opinion as to > whether it is bad enough to mess with... > > Sg > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 16:26:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GKQbRM020097 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:26:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GKPAd5009151 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:25:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GKP44g032534; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:25:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GKOq4g032342 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:25:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6GKuT5c018104 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:56:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6GKuTXB018103 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:56:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407162056.i6GKuTXB018103@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] question about European costume book In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040716124950.01e274a0@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > A robin on my front step spoke in the voice of Susan Farmer, and said: > > >She also uses them in her Encyclopedia of World Costume as well (but they're > >not "referenced" in that book like they are in European Costume. > > > >Jerusha > Forgive me, but I've misplaced the original post. Who is the author of > this book? Doreen Yarwood. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 16:53:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GKqxRM020200 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:53:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GKp4d5011417 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:51:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GKp24g051807; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:51:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GKon4g051634 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:50:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.121] (pm7-121.eos.net [205.133.149.121]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GKoJEM025667 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:50:20 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:47:59 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407161906.i6GJ694h075393@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 540 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Brandy wrote: > Ironically it is the intent to make it art that makes it art. And yes, it > is because the artists "says so", just because one person may not think it > is art, does not mean it isn't art. Says who? If you examined the history of "art" as a concept, you would find that this is a VERY recent opinion. And, IMHO, not a very intelligent one. If the artist gets to decide if what he/she does is art or not, then who decides if he/she is an artist in the first place? "I'm an artist because I make art, and what I make is art because I say it is. Because I'm an artist. And I'm an artist because I make art . . ." This kind of fuzzy thinking does no one any good. Just as making the concept of art all-encompassing doesn't make more art -- it just makes the whole idea of art meaningless. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 17:06:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GL6URM020279 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:06:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GL4Vd5012811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:04:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GL4T4g062282; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:04:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GL4M4g062196 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:04:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlZsS-0006oT-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:04:20 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:04:25 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c46b78$79def940$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <000701c46b71$ed46c090$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Looks to me like it wouldn't be that hard a job to replace. I thought the edges were finished etc. I would redo that myself. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 17:45:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GLjHRM020410 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:45:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GLgdd5016436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:42:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GLga4g089956; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:42:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GLgY4g089888 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:42:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716214233.UFEP3317.out006.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:42:33 -0500 Message-ID: <008e01c46b7d$cfdb3430$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407161801.i6GI104h027301@net.indra.com> <000901c46b62$b6bfb2c0$348d2e8e@wightman.ca> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: what is art? (was King Arthur) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:42:36 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:42:33 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well spoke. Goes to show that there will always be Art outside all of our comfort zones (those gessoed canvases get me every time.. grrr). B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Five Rivers" To: "Historic Costume List" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:28 AM Subject: [h-cost] Re: what is art? (was King Arthur) > I'll wade into this one being as I'm avoiding the studio for some > reason. > > My personal definition of art is an emotional or provocative dialogue > between the viewer/reader/whatever and the item. Now I know this leaves > things wide open to interpretation, but I suppose that's how it should be. I > can appreciate and be involved in Michelangelo's Pieta, just as I can in Van > Gogh's Starry Night, or in the immense minimalist painting which caused to > much controversy in Canada, Pillar of Fire. There are technical and artistic > merits in all of these works, in my opinion. There is very much a dialogue > going on between artist and viewer. > > Further, I firmly believe the painter/writer/sculptor/designer has to > have put something of him/herself into the work. A part of their own > paradigm or view of the universe has to have been imbued in that vignette, > that time capsule. I don't think water in a glass called Oak cuts it. Sorry. > Neither do I think a white gessoed canvas does it either. And I don't think > haute couture or art or literature for the sake of shock effect fits in this > definition. We are dealing with something far more subtle than the simple > orgasmic copout of shock effect. To continue with that sexual metaphor, art > should be about the foreplay that leads to climax (enlightenment). It's the > process. Not the endorphins that flood as a result of the act. > > I don't know if this makes any sense whatever, or if it's just too far > out in flaky-land to be effectively communicative. > > Regards > Lorina > (who really must get back into the studio) > Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage > fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery > supplies > (519) 799-5577, http://www.5rivers.org email: info@5rivers.org > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 17:47:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GLlBRM020417 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:47:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GLdhd5016095 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:39:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GLdW4g087726; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:39:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GLdS4g087670 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:39:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716213927.FANF24784.out014.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:39:27 -0500 Message-ID: <008801c46b7d$61109fe0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <36.5d276b5e.2e296acb@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:39:30 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:39:27 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO You took that the completely wrong way. To the person who made the home video, they may think it better then some studio films, and the mother of the child who costumed the show thinks higher of her child's work then some on Broadway. I firmly stand by my opinion that the 'goodness' or 'badness' of any object is in the eye of the beholder. I have met people who detest the Masters, no matter how 'perfect' there style is. I don't discredit quality or professionalism, I am saying that different people from different countries all have different opinions of all kinds of art, some think it blasphemous all together. And if youth is an insult, it is one I will gladly take. B ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur > In a message dated 7/16/2004 12:03:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, > queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > > > If you > > think that our critera for excellence, as an organization, society or > > country, is the only one to judge by, you are mistaken. > > So home movies are just as good as studio pictures. Highschool play costuming > is to be judged just like Broadway. IOW, you believe that there is nothing > more to being professional or a master than opinions. > > I don't think that's true. > > You know there ARE subjective elements to art and excellence [and everything > else] but it is not completely subjective. > > You must be young. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 17:53:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GLrxRM020433 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:53:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GLprd5017253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:51:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GLpo4g096408; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:51:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out012.verizon.net (out012pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GLpm4g096376 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:51:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040716215147.JUFF2198.out012.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:51:47 -0500 Message-ID: <00b501c46b7f$1a56c7d0$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <00d401c46b66$5cb6b310$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 14:51:51 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:51:47 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Now that it has been pointed out, I do see the predicament. Considering who would be doing the work, I think that replacing the particular side piece may not be too bad of an idea, would it affect the lay of the bodice at all? B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:54 AM Subject: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. > Hi, > As Deredere mentioned, i have a bad pattern repeat in the bodice of the > weddingdress i make. I am not happy with it, and i made it because i wanted > to save as much fabric as possible. (hates when i need more fabric than i > have) > The whole bodice is compleated, but would you consider it impossible to > replace the piece in the bodice. I have plenty of fabric left. It is the > center front bodice piece. > I was thinking that i could gently take up the seams in the sides and then i > perhaps could handstitch the new piece into the bodice? > It is fully lined. > Surely would much rather sit and sew one extra night, if i could make it > better. > What do you think? > > Bjarne > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 19:44:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GNikRM020942 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:44:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNgfd5026366 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:42:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNgX4g065624; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:42:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNgU4g065537 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:42:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id AD5AB1800E0B for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:42:25 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.34) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 16 Jul 2004 23:40:35 -0000 Received: by ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 83A42C610C; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:42:25 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:42:25 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:42:25 +0000 Subject: RE: [h-cost] Plaid woven diagonally? X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040716234225.83A42C610C@ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks Teddy, I was the one who mentioned the picture this time 'round but don't have it to hand and suggested if people wanted to start looking they check the various versions of Tacuinum sanitas since that is where I think it might be. When I get the chance I will see if the school library has the manuscript it is in. Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > > And we think these were woven on the diagonal why? > > Because there's a picture of some tartan fabric being woven with the > pattern running diagonally. Someone (it may even have been Danielle who > raised the matter this time around) posted a link to the picture some > years ago whe the subject was also under discussion. > > Sorry, I can't remember when and wouldn't know where/how to search the > archives for it, but I definately remember seeing the picture and it > was a tartan/plaid looking pattern on the diagonal on the loom. > > Teddy > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 19:56:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GNumRM020963 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:56:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNsVd5027343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:54:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNsT4g071539; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:54:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m16.mx.aol.com (imo-m16.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.206]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNsQ4g071470 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:54:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.7d.531cff19 (4394) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:54:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <7d.531cff19.2e29c4ab@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:54:19 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] History vs. Fiction To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/04 1:50:34 PM Central Daylight Time, gailscott@eos.net writes: There's no way the Sheriff of Nottingham could ever, at any time in history, have become King of England. Really, Gail? Now, I find this statement quite interesting. First, the Sheriff's plan in the movie was to marry Marian and then put his CHILD on the throne. He wasn't after being crowned king himself, he wanted to rule through his wife (of royal blood) and his child. And there are certainly quite a few instances of situations similar to this occurring throughout English (and, indeed, European) history; many a non-royal "protector" has ruled through a minority sovereign simply by being related or in the right place at the right time. Edward and Thomas Seymour managed to set themselves up as rulers of a nation simply by having a sister who knew how to keep her mouth shut at the right times. As far as non-royals or those who are not in direct line taking over the throne: What about William the Conquerer, better known to his contemporaries for a while as William the Bastard, who was simply the illegitimate son of the Duke of Normandy, but through political and military manouvering became King of England. Or there's Henry II, whose claim to the throne was through his mother, and who through simple brute strength took the throne from the previous king's own son. In fact, that previous king (Stephen) really didn't have any *right* to the throne, other than that he was stronger than his cousin (Matilda) and in the right place at the right time with the right army. There's also a *few* instances where the rightful heir or king was thrown out of his throne by a powerful and determined adversary. Richard II and Henry IV, theretofore simply Earl of Bolingbroke, come to mind. As do Henry VI, rightful son of the previous king, and Edward IV, son of the Duke of York. Then of course there's Edward V and Richard Duke of York, arguably done away with by their determined uncle, Richard III. But, probably the best example of an "absurd" ascendance, would be Henry VII himself, founding the Tudor dynasty. You have to go back quite a ways in his family tree to find a legitimate royal ancestor, and if you had said to someone at the time of his birth that this child would one day rule England, I'm sure they would have told you that you were absolutely insane. Yet, there he was a couple of decades later with the crown on his head. Is it *likely* that a Sheriff of Nottingham might have managed to set himself up to rule England? No, of course not. Is it impossible? I don't see how anyone who really knows the history of the English monarchy could say that. If ever there were a situation where the actuarial statement "anything that can possibly happen, will eventually happen" came true, it's the history of British Royals. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 19:59:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6GNxoRM020971 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:59:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNwWd5027685 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:58:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNwT4g073613; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:58:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNwQ4g073545 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:58:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1c1.1bba89d1 (4394) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:58:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1c1.1bba89d1.2e29c596@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:58:14 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Artists/Art To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/04 3:51:55 PM Central Daylight Time, gailscott@eos.net writes: This kind of fuzzy thinking does no one any good. Just as making the concept of art all-encompassing doesn't make more art -- it just makes the whole idea of art meaningless. So how exactly do you define who makes the cut of "artist" and who does not? Is there like a dollar amount that you have to reach in selling your pieces to qualify, or a certain number of years you must be dead, or a certain number of people or critics who recognize and like your work? I'm really curious about this. I hadn't realized that there was actually an objective, specific criteria to separate the REAL artists from the commonplace, mediocre talents. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 20:01:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H01eRM020981 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:01:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNvQd5027592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:57:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6GNvP4g073127; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:57:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6GNvN4g073042 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:57:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCgBN8Jo0xO0QV1AkHVxJo0z/82zWi4d5Jw== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J2PU8P8B; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:56:30 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:59:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th century group photo Message-ID: <20040716.185945.-154542929.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-6,8-32 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Looks terrific, Nicole! All of you look so appropriate. I love seeing this stuff, it's so inspirational. Karen On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:36:01 +0100 (BST) =?iso-8859-1?q?Marquesate?= writes: > In addition to the two photos of my mantua that I sent last night, > here a group > shot of all of us at the exhibition opening. > > As you can see, the costumes range timewise quite a lot. From about > 1710 to - I > think - 1760s. (or 70s?) > > http://www.kipar.org/temp/1700-all.jpg > > Nicole > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW > Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 20:11:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H0BmRM021004 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:11:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H09Vd5028581 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:09:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H09S4g079168; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:09:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m17.mx.aol.com (imo-m17.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H09P4g079090 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:09:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1d1.25f9e22a (4394) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:09:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1d1.25f9e22a.2e29c82d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:09:17 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Richelieu To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/04 1:50:34 PM Central Daylight Time, gailscott@eos.net writes: Ditto for the folks at Disney making Cardinal Richelieu try to become king of France. As to this - yes, it's absurd in its way, but only because Richelieu (for most of his life) had no *need* to "become" king, he already *was* the ruler of France in so many ways. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 20:34:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H0YKRM021062 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:34:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H0V8d5000432 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:31:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H0V54g089992; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:31:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H0V24g089909 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:31:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 20F3B18013EC for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:30:56 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.32) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 17 Jul 2004 00:29:05 -0000 Received: by ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 100183384E; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:30:56 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:30:56 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:30:56 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bodice / Plastron / Stomacher X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040717003056.100183384E@ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, it is usually quite difficult to tell if you're looking at a bodice or a stomacher, and this is compounded when looking at reproductions of the image. Usually, one of the few "definite" ways to tell that you're looking at a stomacher, is if the woman is painted with her hand between it and the bodice... Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > I appreciate what you are saying, Robin. > > I'm not looking for an academic definition but a way of determining what is > being referred to when a picture is being discussed. > > For example, I cannot tell the difference between a stomacher and a fancy > bodice in Elizabethan paintings. Some are referred to as stomachers and > some are referred to as bodices and I cannot tell the difference. So my > question in this case would be -- is there a difference between a stomacher > and a fancy bodice in Elizabethan paintings and how do I tell them apart? > > Or am I just dense and not seeing what everybody else sees? > > Katie > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 20:48:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H0mRRM021081 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:48:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H0kad5001485 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:46:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H0kT4g097451; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:46:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H0kR4g097387 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:46:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.be.1160ba5e (4012) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:46:15 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:46:15 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: re: King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 5:40:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > And if youth is an insult, it is one I will gladly take. > Good heavens no...... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 21:44:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H1iuRM021178 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:44:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H1hAd5006814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:43:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H1h84g030613; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:43:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53706.mail.yahoo.com (web53706.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6H1h64g030569 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:43:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sstormwatch@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040717014300.63436.qmail@web53706.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.8.206.244] by web53706.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:43:00 PDT Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:43:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimiko Small To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Costume College roommates X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello all, I know that in a few weeks some of us will be attending Costume College in Los Angeles. What I am wondering is ... are there any of you wanting to share lodgings at the hotel? I have a non-smoking room and one roommate already, and I tried contacting the roommate coordinator, but never heard any reply from them. I am looking for 1-2 more people who are interested, and already plan on attending. If you are interested, please contact me privately off-list at sstormwatch@yahoo.com (a temp address until my server is back up). Thanks, Kimiko --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 22:00:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H20FRM021233 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:00:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H1x8d5007811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:59:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H1x54g037784; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:59:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H1x24g037766 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:59:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-73-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.73.157]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6H1whBs025698 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:58:54 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040716185842.01db6ee0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:59:35 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? In-Reply-To: <1ee.256a5ae8.2e293b2e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >I started singing the songs from SOM >when I was a toddler with my mom, who loved musicals, and I grew up watching >it >every time it ever came on TV. All we had was the Broadway version, with Theodore Bikel, to sing along with. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 22:10:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H2AERM021266 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:10:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H28Ad5008227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:08:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H28A4g042036; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:08:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H2874g042013 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:08:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.153] (pm5-153.eos.net [205.133.149.153]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H285EM025860 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:08:06 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:05:44 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407162354.i6GNsr4h071807@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: changing the wedding dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne: I would not change it. It is gorgeous the way it is, and the woman is going to wear it ONE TIME. Some of that time she will be holding flowers in front of it! Anyway, that's my vote. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 22:14:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H2EKRM021283 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:14:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H2B3d5008400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:11:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H2B34g043427; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:11:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H2B04g043388 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:11:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.153] (pm5-153.eos.net [205.133.149.153]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H2AuEM026631 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:10:56 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:08:35 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407162354.i6GNsr4h071807@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 541 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Tiffany: Fine, whatever you say. Bowing out now -- Gail > Is it *likely* that a Sheriff of Nottingham might have managed to set himself > up to rule England? No, of course not. Is it impossible? I don't see how > anyone who really knows the history of the English monarchy could say that. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 23:24:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H3OKRM021419 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:24:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H3Ned5012515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:23:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H3NU4g077308; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:23:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H3NS4g077284 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:23:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.10]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040717032328.MMXM15848.out010.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:23:28 -0500 Message-ID: <010701c46bad$70b2d960$0a2c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1c1.1bba89d1.2e29c596@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Artists/Art Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:23:30 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.33.44.10] at Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:23:27 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Artists/Art > In a message dated 7/16/04 3:51:55 PM Central Daylight Time, > gailscott@eos.net writes: > > This kind of fuzzy thinking does no one any good. Just as making the concept > of art all-encompassing doesn't make more art -- it just makes the whole > idea of art meaningless. > > So how exactly do you define who makes the cut of "artist" and who does not? > Is there like a dollar amount that you have to reach in selling your pieces > to qualify, or a certain number of years you must be dead, or a certain number > of people or critics who recognize and like your work? Gosh, I sure hope not, 'cause if there is, I'm in trouble :) > > I'm really curious about this. I hadn't realized that there was actually an > objective, specific criteria to separate the REAL artists from the > commonplace, mediocre talents. > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 23:38:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H3c6RM021451 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:38:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H3b8d5013397 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:37:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H3b64g083097; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:37:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H3b34g083011 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:37:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004071703365801100t1rh8e>; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:36:58 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:34:56 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <1d7.26065d21.2e293e4a@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO um concept here. The Irish "Potato famine" was labeled such for a reason. They also grew them in the highlands I believe. This is not a "New world" veggie. Nor is it a veggie per se, Potatoes are a starch. Wrong or not it is what they used maybe props didn't know a turnip and a potato are 2 different root foods. Are you just feeling argumentative? Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 7:21 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. In a message dated 7/16/2004 4:56:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, freyalynn@yahoo.com writes: > Robin Hood is not a historical figure. The earliest references to him are > in folk songs of the 14/15th Centuries, and he Yes yes. I understand. But the film in question even starts out with the Crusades....so, silly me!...I think that particular version of the legend has a little weight here. It's like "Bram Stoker's Dracula". Personally I think you should place it around the time Bram Stoker wrote it....if you're gonna use his name in the title. [New Yorker's review: "They can't blame this mess on Bram Stoker!"] Plain ol' "Dracula" can be anytime you want. But then, in addition, when you emblazon the screen with 7 ft numbers 1898 and proceed to put everyone in bustles and 1810 waistcoats and Klimt robes, you've screwed up big time....no matter how lovely the designs on their own are. In "Jabberwocky" his girlfriend gives the lead a potato. WHAT? Couldn't props find a turnip? Where did she get a New World veggie in Medieval England???? [It really IS valuable!] Things like this drive me nuts. Mainly because they are easily fixed [potato/turnip] or completely ignore the basic concept of the film. Work together, folks! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 16 23:41:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H3fpRM021456 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:41:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H3bfd5013433 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:37:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H3bf4g083370; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:37:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H3be4g083331 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:37:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004071703373401200fkr7fe>; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:37:34 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:35:33 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <04ca01c4697e$085cc5f0$0200a8c0@susan> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO (directly under the armpit) making it titillating by giving it a hint of showing something different while actually you are showing less then that wench over there with her tits on a platter. *** Hey, Just because I prefer a bodice and happen to have a significant amount of cleavage doesn't mean I'm wearing the bodice just to show off. I dress as suits my figure. I have Chitons and I've worn them for SCA but I prefer not to because I end up with ugly sunburns where there shouldn't be sun touching skin and it is not a flattering shape on me. I've also seen Chitons done totally classless, with not even a bra or panties underneath in Western Washington coastal winds (ack! the horror). As for sexy I've had probably as good a male response to a flash of ankle as I step over something as you have with your Chiton sliding off the shoulder. Just a reminder, clothes can make the person but it takes the person to show the clothes to best advantage. As to Hollywood styles well we all know they make a nod at period and do what they feel will best "entertain" the target audience. The world in not made up of clothing style knowledgeable people like the people on this list. Molly (going back to try and finish reading a 4 day backlog of email) -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Susan Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 1:39 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) I don't know. I have several chitons I wear and guys seem to find them sexy (at least from the comments I got last time I wore one). I think part is their simplicity and gracefulness and part is they sometimes expose areas that don't often get exposed in modern clothes (directly under the armpit) making it titillating by giving it a hint of showing something different while actually you are showing less then that wench over there with her tits on a platter. Also they, at least mine, don't always stay on the shoulders. So you have the Theiss theory working for you (the attractiveness of clothing on women is not really dependent on the amount of skin shown - rather, it depends on the degree to which the outfit appears to be on the verge of falling off.) In other words, if I want to be graceful and sexy for the least amount of effort, I wear a chiton. I've never seen sleeves on a chiton, mine are the doric type with the fold at the top and sewn up either both or just one side. Most are longer so I can do the extra fold at the waist. Susan in Seattle. > No, I highly doubt that's it. Roman women's clothing > is rather... shapless. And not really very > revealing. In modern eyes, not sexy. > > It looks like they took the concept of the stola, > mashed it with a doric chiton, removed a lot of > fabric, then tossed on these SLEEVES that I've seen in > the SCA (and have been assured are period). > > Aurelia > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 00:13:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H4DhRM021529 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:13:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H4Cjd5015629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:12:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H4CX4g011573; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:12:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6H4CU4g011373 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:12:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCgBN8Jo0xO0QvjGgHE3IIEFTt5nHsjdADw== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J2QBTECM; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:11:22 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:13:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost]Spuds Message-ID: <20040716.231414.-154613081.2.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-6,9-12,16-17,22-23,25-26,29-37,39-42,44,46-48,49-32767 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hoo-boy. Perhaps we should take this discussion to a Period Foods list? In any case a simple Google on potato brings you to a whole web site devoted to it's history whereon you find: http://www.indepthinfo.com/potato/history.shtml "Western man did not come in contact with the potato until as late as 1537 when the Conquistadors tramped through Peru. And it was even later, about 1570, that the first potato made its way across the Atlantic to make a start on the continent of Europe. " "It would take three decades for the potato to spread to the rest of Europe. Even so the potato was cultivated primarily as a curiosity by amateur botanists. Resistance was due to ingrained eating habits, the tuber's reputation as a food for the underpriveleged and perhaps most importantly its relationship to poisonous plants." "Europe would wait until the 1780's before the potato gained prominence anywhere. About 1780 the people of Ireland adopted the rugged food crop." The only place the potato is not a veggie but a starch is on the food pyramid. It is certainly a vegetable as it is neither animal nor mineral! And now back to our regularly scheduled costuming discussions.... Karen On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:34:56 -0700 "Molly Boone" writes: > um concept here. The Irish "Potato famine" was labeled such for a > reason. > They also grew them in the highlands I believe. This is not a "New > world" veggie. Nor is it a veggie per se, Potatoes are a starch. Wrong or > not it is what they used maybe props didn't know a turnip and a potato are > 2 different root foods. > > Are you just feeling argumentative? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 00:21:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H4LPRM021543 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:21:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H4EMd5015752 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:14:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H4EK4g014584; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:14:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H4EJ4g014562 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:14:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-67-101-145-205.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([67.101.145.205] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BlgaY-0002Ub-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:14:18 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:11:27 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO (hoping I haven't messed up the attributions in getting things concisely in order) At 8:34 PM -0700 7/16/04, Molly Boone wrote: >In a message dated 7/16/2004 4:56:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, >freyalynn@yahoo.com writes: > >In "Jabberwocky" his girlfriend gives the lead a potato. WHAT? Couldn't >props >find a turnip? Where did she get a New World veggie in Medieval England???? >[It really IS valuable!] > >Things like this drive me nuts. Mainly because they are easily fixed >[potato/turnip] or completely ignore the basic concept of the film. Work >together, >folks! >um concept here. The Irish "Potato famine" was labeled such for a reason. >They also grew them in the highlands I believe. This is not a "New world" >veggie. Nor is it a veggie per se, Potatoes are a starch. Wrong or not it >is what they used maybe props didn't know a turnip and a potato are 2 >different root foods. > >Are you just feeling argumentative? Not meaning to be argumentative, but the Irish potato famine occurred in the mid 19th century, which would make it a weak argument for medieval use regardless of other considerations. In any event, it's a solid historic fact that the potato is a New World plant and was not introduced into Europe until the 16th century -- and not established as a staple food crop there until various dates in the 17th and 18th centuries depending on region. Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 00:33:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H4XbRM021561 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:33:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H4Wvd5016874 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:32:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H4Ws4g031180; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:32:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H4Wp4h030979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:32:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.141]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i6H4bcUp003432 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:37:38 +1000 Message-ID: <03ee01c46bb6$a109a400$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:29:17 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Molly, The Irish potato famine was AFTER they were imported from the new world and was incorporated in the everyday Irish diet because it grow fast and easily. The Irish quickly became dependant on it. The Potato is a native of the americas, but it grows well in all sorts of coolish places, like Ireland, the Scottish Highlands and, in my case, the south of Australia. Glenda. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 1:34 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. > um concept here. The Irish "Potato famine" was labeled such for a reason. > They also grew them in the highlands I believe. This is not a "New world" > veggie. Nor is it a veggie per se, Potatoes are a starch. Wrong or not it > is what they used maybe props didn't know a turnip and a potato are 2 > different root foods. > > Are you just feeling argumentative? > > Molly > > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of AlbertCat@aol.com > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 7:21 AM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. > > > In a message dated 7/16/2004 4:56:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, > freyalynn@yahoo.com writes: > > > Robin Hood is not a historical figure. The earliest references to him are > > in folk songs of the 14/15th Centuries, and he > > Yes yes. I understand. But the film in question even starts out with the > Crusades....so, silly me!...I think that particular version of the legend > has a > little weight here. > > It's like "Bram Stoker's Dracula". Personally I think you should place it > around the time Bram Stoker wrote it....if you're gonna use his name in the > title. [New Yorker's review: "They can't blame this mess on Bram Stoker!"] > Plain > ol' "Dracula" can be anytime you want. But then, in addition, when you > emblazon > the screen with 7 ft numbers > > 1898 > > and proceed to put everyone in bustles and 1810 waistcoats and Klimt robes, > you've screwed up big time....no matter how lovely the designs on their own > are. > > In "Jabberwocky" his girlfriend gives the lead a potato. WHAT? Couldn't > props > find a turnip? Where did she get a New World veggie in Medieval England???? > [It really IS valuable!] > > Things like this drive me nuts. Mainly because they are easily fixed > [potato/turnip] or completely ignore the basic concept of the film. Work > together, > folks! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 01:07:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H57IRM021622 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:07:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H54Ld5019401 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:04:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H54J4g045492; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:04:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6H54H4g045443 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:04:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp01.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.121]) by smtpout01.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABARTN2XABDSKLS for (sender ); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 982 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2004 05:03:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.16.156) by smtp01.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 17 Jul 2004 05:03:08 -0000 Message-ID: <011601c46bbb$58b3eee0$9c10bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040716085511.16097.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:03:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ContentStamp: 19:9:3869142510 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55ofpggCIvJyM8VZBEAQwrywSrhlMrJao3CP X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you. I was just composing a note of similar content. You saved me the trouble. Most mythology is quite ancient. The setting just changes as time moves on. Susy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Freyalynn Close-Hainsworth" To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 4:55 AM Subject: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. > Robin Hood is not a historical figure. The earliest references to him are in folk songs of the 14/15th Centuries, and he ties in to all the other folk figures used in Morris dances and other similar things, such as the Doctor and the Green Man. There are various legends linking him to different parts of northern England, and it's only really been the 19th C retelling of the stories that link him definitely to Sherwood Forest/Nottingham/King Richard 1/King John. > > Therefore any movie of his *life* can only be accurate to the period in which they choose to set the film, not to details of his existence, which don't exist. > > In fact (and not checking because I'm at work) I'm pretty sure the robbing the rich to give to the poor is a very late addition - originally he was a romantic highwayman figure. > > I enjoyed 'Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves', but purely as a fantasy movie with historical influence, which is what it was. > > Freyalyn, from northern England. > > ostume-request@indra.com wrote: > Good grief.... > > Ok..y'see, Richard puts John in charge while he goes off to the Crusades. The > Arabs capture him and hold him for ransom. John taxes the people to raise the > ransom.....but instead of paying it, he and the nobles keep it. Robin's > "steals from the rich" to give the money back to the people it came from because > it's not being used to ransom the lawful king. [And I think John ruins his > father, a nobleman, and takes his land over all this] > > It's only the reason Robin does what he does in the 1st place! > > Or at least that's the way I remember it. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 01:22:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H5MSRM021646 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:22:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H5JPd5020340 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:19:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H5JO4g052660; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:19:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail1.plugit.com [66.210.223.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H5JL4g052570 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:19:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penny@costumegallery.com) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A5C7A5800C4; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:14:47 -0500 Received: from MOM [69.241.150.7] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id A5B25100FA; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:14:26 -0500 Message-ID: <003c01c46bbd$86966250$0200a8c0@MOM> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4.1.20040716185842.01db6ee0@mail.frys.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:18:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by ElectroSHIELD (www.plugit.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I forgot to mention one recent movie that I really liked the costumes, especially the hairstyles... Mona Lisa Smile. I don't know why the critics disliked this film so much. Maybe they didn't understand what women were going through in 1953. Penny E. Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 03:25:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H7PURM023200 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:25:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H7NYd5025931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:23:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H7NN4g010658; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:23:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H7NL4g010600 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 01:23:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004071707231501100svscme>; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:23:16 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:21:15 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Heather, that actually wasn't directed at you. That was directed at the person who has made several rather inflammatory comments, I believe the email was albertcat or something close (sorry I've deleted my email trash can). As to the time mix up, the only "Jabberwocky" I've seen, the costumes indicated 1770 or there about to me so the potato was already in the UK by then. I wasn't paying that close of attention when I saw what parts I did see. Maybe it is a different movie. Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Heather Rose Jones Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 9:11 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. (hoping I haven't messed up the attributions in getting things concisely in order) At 8:34 PM -0700 7/16/04, Molly Boone wrote: >In a message dated 7/16/2004 4:56:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, >freyalynn@yahoo.com writes: > >In "Jabberwocky" his girlfriend gives the lead a potato. WHAT? Couldn't >props >find a turnip? Where did she get a New World veggie in Medieval England???? >[It really IS valuable!] > >Things like this drive me nuts. Mainly because they are easily fixed >[potato/turnip] or completely ignore the basic concept of the film. Work >together, >folks! >um concept here. The Irish "Potato famine" was labeled such for a reason. >They also grew them in the highlands I believe. This is not a "New world" >veggie. Nor is it a veggie per se, Potatoes are a starch. Wrong or not it >is what they used maybe props didn't know a turnip and a potato are 2 >different root foods. > >Are you just feeling argumentative? Not meaning to be argumentative, but the Irish potato famine occurred in the mid 19th century, which would make it a weak argument for medieval use regardless of other considerations. In any event, it's a solid historic fact that the potato is a New World plant and was not introduced into Europe until the 16th century -- and not established as a staple food crop there until various dates in the 17th and 18th centuries depending on region. Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 05:35:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6H9ZxRM024181 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 05:35:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H9Wjd5001735 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:32:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H9Wd4g067688; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:32:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6H9Wa4h067663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:32:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6H9UDtY018648 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 05:30:13 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 05:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F8F228.20504@thibault.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 05:32:24 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? References: <4.1.20040716185842.01db6ee0@mail.frys.com> <003c01c46bbd$86966250$0200a8c0@MOM> In-Reply-To: <003c01c46bbd$86966250$0200a8c0@MOM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Penny Ladnier wrote: > I forgot to mention one recent movie that I really liked the costumes, > especially the hairstyles... Mona Lisa Smile. I don't know why the critics > disliked this film so much. Maybe they didn't understand what women were > going through in 1953. I plan to see it sometime soon, but the discussions about the difference between what the producers told Wellesley College, what they ended up with, and the reactions of the Alumnae saying it was nothing like their experience of the time, have given me some idea about why the critics might have been less than flattering. My favorite costumes are all in pre-renaissance historical movies, but it's hard to pick one out of the lineup. Granted, a lot of such movies fall into the "mud-brown unhemmed tunic" category, but a few nobles are usually well dressed. I think maybe most of my movie costume reactions aren't so much "I love that outfit" as "I wish I could handle it to know how they constructed it!" -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Abstract words such as glory, honor, courage, or hallow were obscene. -- Ernest Hemingway _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 08:49:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HCn2RM024956 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:49:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HCkud5013013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:46:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HCkm4g060440; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:46:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.netspace.net.au (cumulus.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.72]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HCkj4g060332 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:46:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from stilskin@netspace.net.au) Received: from localhost (sprinkle.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.77]) by mail.netspace.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2C26BFD9 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:46:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from dialup-a2-125.Melbourne.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-125.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.113.248.125]) by webmail.netspace.net.au (IMP) with HTTP for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:46:32 +1000 Message-ID: <1090068392.40f91fa871e12@webmail.netspace.net.au> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:46:32 +1000 From: stilskin@netspace.net.au To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kirk's Starfleet uniform for Star Trek II (designed by Robert Fletcher): Great tailoring; Traditional military (especially naval) elements; Practical; Interesting use of colour and textiles (as with the rest of the movie's costumes); Used to underpin the action and emotion of the movie - it is part of the storytelling as applied to Kirk, his crew and even Khan who adopts it. Second favourite if I may? Edith Head's light suit for Bing in Road to Morrocco just because it looks great, -C. ------------------------------------------------------------ This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 09:12:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HDCgRM025084 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:12:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDBld5014332 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:11:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDBj4g072498; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:11:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDBg4g072433 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:11:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.79.2e8d3f7f (4004) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:11:30 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <79.2e8d3f7f.2e2a7f82@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:11:30 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/16/2004 11:37:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net writes: > Are you just feeling argumentative? > No. But the facts are the potato was only found in the New World until Europeans brought them to Europe after they discovered the new world. Just like corn. Do you feel informed? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 09:19:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HDJdRM025107 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:19:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDGHd5014565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:16:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDGH4g074653; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:16:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDGG4g074602 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:16:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.154.3a0e99a0 (4004) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:16:04 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <154.3a0e99a0.2e2a8094@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:16:04 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/17/2004 12:33:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, glendar@compassnet.com.au writes: > The Irish potato famine was AFTER they were imported from the new world Interestingly....I read the blight that destroyed the potato and caused the famine was so effective and wide-ranging because the potatoes in Ireland had a very limited genetic diversity [making them vulnerable] because they were all decedents from a few potatoes brought in during the 1600s. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 09:24:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HDOBRM025118 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:24:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDLbd5014860 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:21:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDLa4g077106; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:21:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDLV4g077016 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:21:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.99.498a95a4 (4004) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:21:20 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <99.498a95a4.2e2a81d0@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:21:20 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/17/2004 3:24:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net writes: > Maybe it is a different movie. > > It is. The one I refer to has Michael Palin in it and a bunch of knights in armor. And what "rather inflammatory remarks" are you referring to. How have I insulted anyone....anyone who isn't ridiculously thin skinned? Let's just talk about panty hose...that'll be safe. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 09:52:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HDqsRM025302 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:52:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDpRd5016158 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:51:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDpN4g090612; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:51:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from x11.quik.com (x11.quik.com [209.213.140.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HDpL4g090585 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 07:51:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyanne@quik.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by x11.quik.com (8.12.9-20030926/8.12.5) id i6HDpJ0a011828 for h-costume@indra.com.qbigmail; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:51:19 -0700 Received: from quik.com (x1.quik.com [216.176.27.101]) by x11.quik.com (8.12.9-20030926/8.12.5) with SMTP id i6HDpJtg011815 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:51:19 -0700 Received: from 68.109.4.7 (QuikMail authenticated user ladyanne) by webmail.quik.com with HTTP; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4500.68.109.4.7.1090072279.squirrel@webmail.quik.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 06:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: changing the wedding dress From: To: In-Reply-To: References: <200407162354.i6GNsr4h071807@net.indra.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: QuikMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I agree. Afterall, I didn't notice it til it was pointed out. Also, most people will look at the gown as a whole . Very few people (except on this list) would ever see this. Don't be so hard on yourself. The gown is absolutely GORGEOUS!! Anne (back to lurk and drool mode) > > Bjarne: > > I would not change it. It is gorgeous the way it is, and the woman is > going to wear it ONE TIME. Some of that time she will be holding flowers > in front of it! > > Anyway, that's my vote. > > Gail Finke > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 10:24:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HEOCRM025425 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:24:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HEKad5017858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:20:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HEKX4g005265; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:20:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HEKW4g005243 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:20:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jaurbik@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (ool-18bde58e.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.229.142]) by mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I1000C882HBNN@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:20:41 -0400 From: "J.A.Urbik" Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: changing the wedding dress In-reply-to: <4500.68.109.4.7.1090072279.squirrel@webmail.quik.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <40F935B9.50501@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) References: <200407162354.i6GNsr4h071807@net.indra.com> <4500.68.109.4.7.1090072279.squirrel@webmail.quik.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have to say, that first of all, I am not sure that could make such a wonderful bodice myself, BUT, I would do what i could to redo the bodice if I had time and the extra fabric. It is the best to be able to think about past projects in a self-satisfied manner, not regreting forever that one did do the project corectly. Jordana _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 10:30:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HEUwRM025450 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:30:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HERJd5018162 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:27:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HERI4g008356; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:27:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (IDENT:fuyhPoXK5Y+sbzFt+NIu2B+8yoyNC8Tu@isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HERG4g008339 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:27:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.166] (p06.3c04.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.166]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6HEQoP32154 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:26:50 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) In-Reply-To: <40F935B9.50501@optonline.net> References: <200407162354.i6GNsr4h071807@net.indra.com> <4500.68.109.4.7.1090072279.squirrel@webmail.quik.com> <40F935B9.50501@optonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: changing the wedding dress Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 08:30:11 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I vote for not changing it. It's not going to be noticeable at all to most people and it's only going to be worn once. On Jul 17, 2004, at 8:20 AM, J.A.Urbik wrote: > I have to say, that first of all, I am not sure that could make such a > wonderful bodice myself, BUT, I would do what i could to redo the > bodice if I had time and the extra fabric. It is the best to be able > to think about past projects in a self-satisfied manner, not regreting > forever that one did do the project corectly. > > Jordana > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 11:50:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HFowRM025814 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:50:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HFoMd5023047 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:50:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HFoD4g048479; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:50:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m28.mx.aol.com (imo-m28.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.9]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HFoB4g048440 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:50:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.148.2e83c29f (4340) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:50:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <148.2e83c29f.2e2aa4a8@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:50:00 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/17/04 8:22:46 AM Central Daylight Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: And what "rather inflammatory remarks" are you referring to. How have I insulted anyone....anyone who isn't ridiculously thin skinned? I would say that making comments like "do you feel informed?" would be easily considered rude and inflammatory. And I promise you, my skin is just about as thick as it comes. Calling other people thin-skinned is a convenient excuse the tactless employ to get away with being unkind. It's not being thin-skinned to take exception to rudeness; it's just pointing out the obvious. This is just my *objective* opinion, since the rude comment wasn't directed at me. ::shrug:: -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 12:29:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HGTLRM025981 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:29:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGQkd5025256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:26:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGQh4g085176; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:26:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m26.mx.aol.com (imo-m26.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.7]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGQg4g084939 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:26:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.25.4aa873cc (17079) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:26:33 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <25.4aa873cc.2e2aad38@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:26:32 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/17/2004 11:51:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > I would say that making comments like "do you feel informed?" How about "Do you feel argumentative?" I don't consider that rude but it is an invitation to a little banter. Why people take these things personally I'll never know. I'd survive 3 seconds in my field if I did. I find that many young people get their panties in a wad whenever what they think is true is countered or even questioned, especially by older folks with lots of experience in whatever subject is being discussed. Yes, sometimes it's sad to find out what you thought was true isn't so true. But truth is best.... Being ignorant of something is NOT being stupid. Refusing to learn things is being stupid. I'm a very skeptical person who has been beaten up a lot for not taking the majority view or falling for bogus arguments. I don't have time to play nicey-nice a lot of the time. I certainly didn't get a lot of nicey-nice when I was growing up. I suppose that's why I'm not all warm and fuzzy. My whole point of this "can of worms"...which I didn't make it...was that art is not totally subjective. To think so is simply wrong. All opinions are not equal in gravis and everyone's experience in this world, if you stop and analyze a bit, will show this to them. Once I had the nerve here to ask why tattoos where for the most part considered tacky and sorta low life....especially since every culture at some time in their history employed them. This was answered with a freak out you wouldn't believe. I personally don't find tattoos universally tacky....depends on the tattoo.... but many people, right or wrong, do. For some reason merely asking what I thought was a curiosity, since I don't mind tattoos, became this flame war. I just asked a reasonable question. Others with big chips on their shoulders as well as tattoos went ballistic and ruined the discussion. I of course got blamed for it all. Oh well....it's not my fault people can't think straight. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 12:39:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HGd8RM026058 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:39:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGZDd5025818 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:35:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGZA4g094564; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:35:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGZ84g094546 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:35:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0386.dialsprint.net ([63.186.145.132]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bls9S-00042u-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:35:07 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:35:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00d401c46b66$5cb6b310$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That's what I would do, Bjarne. Your hand-sewing is so precise and small that I'm sure you could make the change invisibly, especially if you pressed the seam allowance under before sewing. I have joined seams from the right side with an in-and-out stitch (in effect, a running stitch in the seam creases) that conceals itself even with stitches as long as 1/8". And since the bodice is completely lined, you wouldn't have to worry about strains on the new seam. One of my favorite books is the mystery "Gaudy Night," by Dorothy L. Sayers. In it the heroine receives an antique chess set as a gift from the hero/detective--the chess pieces are from China, pieces of ivory carved with nested balls. Before buying the set, the hero examines each chess piece very carefully to make sure they are all original and perfect. Harriet, the heroine, says she understands why this is important--because if they were not all original, no matter how beautiful the set was, whenever someone admired it she would feel compelled to say "Of course, one of the pawns is modern." The reason I remember this now, in this context, is that I believe every time you think of this gorgeous dress, if you do not correct the pattern repeat that is now bothering you you will say to yourself "Well, it was beautiful, yes, EXCEPT for that bad pattern repeat." Since you have enough fabric to replace the piece, I think you're right that an extra night of sewing will pay off in your own satisfaction and pride in your work. Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer on 7/16/04 2:54 PM, Bjarne og Leif Drews at drewscph@post12.tele.dk wrote: > Hi, > As Deredere mentioned, i have a bad pattern repeat in the bodice of the > weddingdress i make. I am not happy with it, and i made it because i wanted > to save as much fabric as possible. (hates when i need more fabric than i > have) > The whole bodice is compleated, but would you consider it impossible to > replace the piece in the bodice. I have plenty of fabric left. It is the > center front bodice piece. > I was thinking that i could gently take up the seams in the sides and then i > perhaps could handstitch the new piece into the bodice? > It is fully lined. > Surely would much rather sit and sew one extra night, if i could make it > better. > What do you think? > > Bjarne > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 12:52:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HGqjRM026095 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:52:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGoqd5027029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:50:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGoo4g002927; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:50:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGoG4g002668 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:50:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m80.in-tch.com [216.166.191.80]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6HGoGN01622 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:50:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F959B5.3060003@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:54:13 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 18th century group photo References: <20040716083601.3930.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040716083601.3930.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ah, but you all look so good! Thanks for sharing.... --sue Marquesate wrote: > In addition to the two photos of my mantua that I sent last night, here a group > shot of all of us at the exhibition opening. > > As you can see, the costumes range timewise quite a lot. From about 1710 to - I > think - 1760s. (or 70s?) > > http://www.kipar.org/temp/1700-all.jpg > > Nicole _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 13:03:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HH34RM026173 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:03:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGxYd5027706 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:59:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGxX4g007698; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:59:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HGxV4g007642 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:59:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.65.2e7cede9 (4340) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:59:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <65.2e7cede9.2e2ab4e6@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:59:18 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Okay, this is my last response on this subject, because it's way OT and has become dangerously close to banging my head against my computer desk. For now, let's cut through the BS, shall we? And let me just start off by saying, if this seems like a personal attack, it was never my (or anyone else's, I don't think) intention to make any of this discussion about YOU. You have chosen to make it that way by centering your commentary around your own personal experience in discussions and life. "Why people take these things personally I'll never know. I'd survive 3 seconds in my field if I did." Again, talking about "taking things personally" and putting off the responsibility on the person to whom you were rude, is simply a dodge to shove off your own responsibility for what you say or type. If you can make it the other person's fault because they're just 'too sensitive' or 'too thin skinned' or 'take things too personally,' then it (theoretically) makes you look less like you're at fault for not being able to demonstrate politeness and respect in your own dialogue. Simply disagreeing with what you say, or pointing out that you said it rudely, does not automatically mean that it's been taken personally. You're assuming you have far more power over other people's mentality and feelings than you actually do. "I find that many young people get their panties in a wad whenever what they think is true is countered or even questioned, especially by older folks with lots of experience in whatever subject is being discussed." What on earth makes you so absurdly certain that you, or anyone else on this group, is automatically older and/or wiser than any other? You have no idea who I am, how old I am, what my credentials are, or my experience/education is. I don't know any of this about you, either, but so far nothing that I've seen or heard from you entices me to regard you as some sort of Oracle - and I certainly won't be taking any of your statements at face value and as fact, simply because you say that I should. Your opinion - and that's what these are, opinions - count for exactly the same amount as every single other person on this group, no more and no less. For you to try to make it sound like we're all just young whippersnappers who don't know any better than to question the holy writ coming from an educated, experienced person like you, is simply arrogant, and again it's a way to attempt to discredit others to make your own stance appear more validated. "I'm a very skeptical person who has been beaten up a lot for not taking the majority view or falling for bogus arguments. I don't have time to play nicey-nice a lot of the time." I'm sorry, is this a Clint Eastwood movie, or a discussion group? Please, don't try to turn your inability to be respectful into some sort of moral crusade to prove how brave you are in going against the flow. Get a tattoo or a piercing instead. It is perfectly possible to disagree with people, debate with people, and state your own (even if unpopular) opinions, without being insulting to the others' viewpoints. If you have not learned that in all your many years and many experiences, then you need to go back and re-read what you yourself wrote about refusing to learn things. "My whole point of this "can of worms"...which I didn't make it...was that art is not totally subjective. To think so is simply wrong. All opinions are not equal in gravis and everyone's experience in this world, if you stop and analyze a bit, will show this to them." If that's what you believe, then that's fine. You're entitled to believe whatever you choose. And the rest of us are equally entitled to believe what we choose, and to refuse to adopt your viewpoint on this matter. And contrary to what you seem to think, this does not make us ignorant, stupid, uneducated, imperceptive, or young. It simply means we see it differently than you. If you cannot grasp and respect such a simple concept, and accord our beliefs and viewpoints the same respect that you demand for your own, then that is truly very sad. "I of course got blamed for it all. Oh well....it's not my fault people can't think straight." I think you're being unnecessarily modest here. If spats, 'cans of worms' and blow ups tend to happen often around you and involving you, then perhaps you should take a long, objective look at what the common factor in those situations is. I'll give you a hint: look in a mirror. It's not just coincidence or bad luck that you tend to find yourself at the center of controversy on a frequent basis. But then, you're more than intelligent enough to have already known that, right? Which, IMO, means that with all verbal games aside, you simply enjoy the process of provoking the controversy, absolving yourself (at least in your own mind) of any responsibility that you might have for said controversy, and then bowing out and enjoying the fireworks you've created. A fun game, I'm sure, but not a particularly original one. Having performed my psychoanalysis for the weekend, I am also going to bow out and leave this be, since I'm sure other members of the group are more tired of it than I am. Moreover, there's no point in arguing with someone who is arguing just for the sake of the argument. I hope you'll at least think about it, though. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 13:17:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HHHcRM026234 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:17:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHErd5028872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:14:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHEp4g015545; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:14:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHEo4g015533 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:14:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-41-131.jps.net ([209.165.41.131] helo=KALC) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Blslt-0003NR-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:14:50 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:14:46 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] imperfect clothing X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ruth Anne wrote: >One of my favorite books is the mystery "Gaudy Night," by Dorothy L. Sayers. In it the heroine receives an antique chess set as a gift from the hero/detective--the chess pieces are from China, pieces of ivory carved with nested balls. Before buying the set, the hero examines each chess piece very carefully to make sure they are all original and perfect. Harriet, the heroine, says she understands why this is important--because if they were not all original, no matter how beautiful the set was, whenever someone admired it she would feel compelled to say "Of course, one of the pawns is modern." The reason I remember this now, in this context, is that I believe every time you think of this gorgeous dress, if you do not correct the pattern repeat that is now bothering you you will say to yourself "Well, it was beautiful, yes, EXCEPT for that bad pattern repeat." Ahhh....like everyone else I have found myself in similar positions over my work and fretted like eveyone else. Last Christmas I received a beautiful black leather handbag with some rather smart topstitching using two types of thread, one more prominent than the other. A couple of weeks later, after having enjoyed the bag emmensly during that whole time, I noticed that one side of the handbag was missing the less prominent stitching. I happen to work with a woman who's second job is with the store that I purchased the bag from and she said they would be happy to replace it, but, after some thought I decided to keep it, if only for the fact that it was a reminder to me that "perfect" wasn't really what gave me the enjoyment and that there was as much joy for me in the imperfection and the uniqueness of the bag. I think if I noticed the flaw before I had enjoyed the bag so much it might have been a different story. Sometimes I rip things out, but not always. Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 13:18:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HHIKRM026238 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:18:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHH1d5029046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:17:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHH14g016653; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:17:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHGl4g016447 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:16:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.104.4b8ac735 (4340) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:16:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <104.4b8ac735.2e2ab8f7@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:16:39 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] imperfect clothing To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/17/04 12:15:15 PM Central Daylight Time, lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com writes: Sometimes I rip things out, but not always. Lisa Sinervo Absolutely! Also, sometimes a "mistake" can end up being a really cool new way to do things. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 13:28:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HHSORM026302 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:28:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHQZd5029821 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:26:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHQX4g021642; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:26:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m22.mx.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHQU4g021585 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:26:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.a0.1180e3ff (4340) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:26:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:26:18 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medieval cloth dyes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is a question that's been bothering me for a while. It's somewhat frivolous, but it's Saturday afternoon and I'm bored and I don't wanna work. My understanding (and this is very, very generally speaking) of clothing dyes in the Medieval period - let's say, from around the 11th through 15th centuries - is thus: Colors which appear abundantly in nature and are indiginous to a particular region, would have been used abundantly in the colors of fabrics and other textiles. Say, a bright yellow flower overflows the fields of a county in Southern Ireland from May to August of every year, so you can find a lot of yellow cloth and dyes in that region. Wool fabric would often be .... whatever color the sheep in that village were. And so forth. Conversely, any substance/color which is extremely rare or must come from far away, goes up in price and rarity in direct proportion to its scarcity. The best example of this would probably be chermisi. Okay, so having stated these basic premises, I had gone on to assume that (again, very generally speaking) if you were looking over French countryside in the 14th century, what you would see farm labourers wearing would primarily be earth tones, with some colors here and there where they could afford them, had bartered for them, or had become resourceful and creative enough to invent from whatever nature has provided to them. So a few years ago, I'm reading Michael Crichton's Timeline. I adore his books and I realize that they're primarily fantasy, but he normally does a spectacular amount of research for them, and is very careful about his details. I was therefore somewhat floored when the main characters approach the seamstress who is finishing off their medieval clothing (which has been made *to the most exact detail to be period correct* including being rolled in dirt and made to look well worn), and the seamstress GETS UP FROM HER SEWING MACHINE to help with the fittings. Well, okay, I thought, that's an easy slip. Perhaps she has a special sewing machine that somehow makes stitches that replicate what hand-sewing in the 14th century would have looked like. Then, when the characters arrive in 1357 France, they're looking out over the peasantry. Said peasantry and farm laboreres are described as being attired in every color of the rainbow, crimsons and bright blues and yellows, as they work in the fields. NOW I'm beginning to feel like I'm visiting a ren faire instead of traveling back in time. I'm far, far from expert when it comes to the Medieval period; my store of knowledge generally stops around the time that Henry VII took the crown. I know bits and pieces that I've picked up regarding Medieval clothing and I've begun researching it, but I'm still in the very basic stages. But this is a question that has bothered me ever since I first read that book, and I know there are people here who know *A LOT* about the Medieval period as far as clothing and dyes are concerned. So ... was he just making an erroneous assumption based on Rogers & Hammerstein musicals? Or have I gotten the wrong impression about what your average lower-income citizen would have been garbed in to work the fields? -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 13:37:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HHbuRM026330 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:37:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHZnd5000634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:35:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHZl4g026469; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:35:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHZk4g026459 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:35:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-44-001.jps.net ([209.165.44.1] helo=KALC) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Blt68-0006Gb-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:35:45 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:35:41 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Tiffsewstuff wrote: >My understanding (and this is very, very generally speaking) of clothing dyes in the Medieval period - let's say, from around the 11th through 15th centuries - is thus: Colors which appear abundantly in nature and are indiginous to a particular region, would have been used abundantly in the colors of fabrics and other textiles. Say, a bright yellow flower overflows the fields of a county in Southern Ireland from May to August of every year, so you can find a lot of yellow cloth and dyes in that region. Wool fabric would often be .... whatever color the sheep in that village were. And so forth. > Well, one problem with this theory is that natural dyestuff does not always produce the same color on a textile. Blue flowers are not used to successfully produce blue fabric. Many colorful plants and flower petals produce a murky sage greenish brown. Lisa Sinervo who also needs to get back to work!! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 13:41:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HHfcRM026357 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:41:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHf5d5000911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:41:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHf44g029081; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:41:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HHf14g028994 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:41:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from FyneHats2@aol.com) Received: from FyneHats2@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1cd.2604eb6c (4012) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:40:54 -0400 (EDT) From: FyneHats2@aol.com Message-ID: <1cd.2604eb6c.2e2abea6@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:40:54 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 542 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 18:43:00 -0700 (PDT) > From: Kimiko Small > > Hello all, > > I know that in a few weeks some of us will be attending Costume College in > Los Angeles. Who else from h-costume will be in Van Nuys, CA for the Costume College? Is there some way to identify ourselves, maybe with an H on our badge? I will be teaching a course on Sunday morning about making a Victorian bustle hat and would love to put faces to several of the names I have become acquainted with on this list. Cheers, Donna Scarfe Fyne Hats By Felicity Period Headgear for Past Ages www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 14:08:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HI8HRM026487 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:08:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HI7Ud5002787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:07:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HI7S4g042753; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:07:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f43.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HI7Q4g042704 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:07:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:07:20 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.61 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:07:18 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.61] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:07:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2004 18:07:20.0847 (UTC) FILETIME=[E74FB9F0:01C46C28] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT: Robin Hood et al. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Although I suspect this is a waste of time, let me try to contribute something here. AlbertCat, I have to say, speaking as someone who frequently offends people inadvertantly, who is also very skeptical and has little or no patience with fools, you may want to try stepping aside and re-reading the various threads you've been involved with lately. In -my opinion- you are coming across as an arguementative, condescending, unyeilding troll. Which means that it is likely that people are not going to be inclined to listen to anything you have to say. So it really doesn't matter if you are right, or have anything valid to contribute. This is experience -- I've been where you are now. If you don't understand why people take these things personally, perhaps you should give it some thought. Being insulted and condescended to, as a rule, tends to offend people. Now, you say you don't have time to "play nicey-nice". Great. I will be happy to play not nice with you, but it will have to be off-list, because that's not what this list is for, and I suspect that removing it from the public eye will cut down on your need to perform before an audience. Therefore, if you chose to respond to this message, do it privately. You say that you are old and experienced and have no patience with "young" people. It sounds more to me like you are ossified and dogmatic, but that's just an opinion. If you want young people to learn, teaching them works better when they are willing to listen to you. If by some chance you don't want to teach them - you don't think it's your business or whatever, then maybe you should keep quiet. You say that refusing to learn is stupid. You are correct. Stop being stupid. Marc >From: AlbertCat@aol.com >Why people take these things personally I'll never know. I'd survive 3 >seconds in my field if I did. >. >I find that many young people get their panties in a wad whenever what they >think is true is countered or even questioned, especially by older folks >with >lots of experience in whatever subject is being discussed. Yes, sometimes >it's >sad to find out what you thought was true isn't so true. But truth is >best.... >Being ignorant of something is NOT being stupid. Refusing to learn things >is >being stupid. > >I'm a very skeptical person who has been beaten up a lot for not taking the >majority view or falling for bogus arguments. I don't have time to play >nicey-nice a lot of the time. I certainly didn't get a lot of nicey-nice >when I was >growing up. I suppose that's why I'm not all warm and fuzzy. > >My whole point of this "can of worms"...which I didn't make it...was that >art >is not totally subjective. To think so is simply wrong. All opinions are >not >equal in gravis and everyone's experience in this world, if you stop and >analyze a bit, will show this to them. > >Once I had the nerve here to ask why tattoos where for the most part >considered tacky and sorta low life....especially since every culture at >some time in >their history employed them. This was answered with a freak out you >wouldn't >believe. I personally don't find tattoos universally tacky....depends on >the >tattoo.... but many people, right or wrong, do. For some reason merely >asking >what I thought was a curiosity, since I don't mind tattoos, became this >flame >war. I just asked a reasonable question. Others with big chips on their >shoulders as well as tattoos went ballistic and ruined the discussion. I of >course got >blamed for it all. >Oh well....it's not my fault people can't think straight. _________________________________________________________________ Getting married? Find great tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 14:16:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HIGNRM026515 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:16:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HICTd5003139 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:12:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HICS4g045486; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:12:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HICP4g045395 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:12:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004071718121701100t0tfqe>; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:12:18 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:10:17 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <9e.f5685d1.2e2897aa@aol.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ok I think my favorite is probably " The Snow Queen" by Hallmark and my favorite costume is the Snow Queen herself played beautifully by Bridget Fonda. I'm still lusting after the tiered choker necklace she wore. *drool* Question for the jewelry experts. This type of necklace is that what is meant by the term "parure"? http://www.hallmarkent.com/photoPopup.php?filename=SnowQueen_hirez_001.jpg Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 7:30 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? What is everyone's favorite, bar-none, made-me-drool-and-still-does, movie costume? Can be any genre, any period, any species. I seem to be a die-hard Eiko Ishioka fan, because all my runners-up are her creations for "The Cell" (everything Jennifer Lopez wore in that film was just amazing to me), and my Absolute Favorite of All Time is her Victorian green walking suit worn by Winona Ryder as Mina in "Bram Stoker's Dracula." I've been collecting the materials to make this gown (for myself, what a novel concept!) for a couple of years now, and I'm getting close to having what I think I need to do it ... except the certainty that I can actually make that bustle! LOL When I first started with this idea I thought it was simply diamond shaped pieces of fabric sewn together, but that was just some seriously wishful thinking. I guess I could do it that way and come up with something that "looks like" the original, but I don't wanna. What are you guys' and gals' all time faves? -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 14:32:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HIWiRM026641 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:32:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIURd5004265 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:30:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIUO4g054937; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:30:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIUM4g054890 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:30:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12957 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:34:30 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:34:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, lisa-list wrote: > Well, one problem with this theory is that natural dyestuff does not > always produce the same color on a textile. Blue flowers are not used > to successfully produce blue fabric. Many colorful plants and flower > petals produce a murky sage greenish brown. And one of the cheapest and most widely available dyes was woad blue, a color that is not exactly abundant visually in the medieval (or modern) landscape, unless you're counting sky and water! In the 13th-14th c. or so, about the only thing cheaper than "bluett" cloth (which was blue-dyed) was "russett" (undyed cloth from a black sheep, which would be grey or brown in color) and "blanket" (undyed cloth from a white sheep). Or so I gathered based on prices listed by Christopher Dyer in "Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages," but I'd have to hunt to get the exact data. Note that I'm talking about purchased yard goods here. It's possible also that there were various earth dyes that were more common than blue, but were routinely done in the household on purchased undyed cloth. I don't know how much household dying was done of yard goods, and how this varied from one time/place to another. For that matter, in some places and times it would have been common to spin your own yarn and weave it at home (or take it to a weaver), rather than selling your undyed fleece or yarn and buying finished cloth, or some other permutation. Dying might be done before weaving or afterward, at home or by a professional dyer. So available colors would have depended in part on where the dying was being done, and by whom, and at what stage of cloth production. If home dying was common, that would limit the colors to those easily or cheaply done in a home situation. This becomes, then, one of those questions that can't be answered till you know where, when, and what class you're talking about. Anyway, besides woad, the other two important and readily available dyes would have been weld (yellow) and madder (red). My understanding is that these were widely used throughout medieval Europe. Start combining and overdying, and you've got a huge spectrum. So the big question is whether you could afford dyed fabric at all. If you could, you could certainly afford blue, and probably a wide range of other colors ... though the *tones* of those colors wouldn't be as broad a range as today's. (For instance, woad/indigo does not produce a cobalt or ultramarine tone, though it does make possible a huge range of dark to light blues.) John Edmonds has written an excellent and inexpensive booklet on the mechanism of woad dying and the history of the woad industry. Find it here, under "publications": http://www.colourhistory.cwc.net/Homepage.htm I think David Brown carries it too, in the U.S. Caveat: I'm not a dye expert! The above is my basic understanding; I've learned only enough to enable me to carry out my own work. If I have this wrong, I'd like to know. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 14:41:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HIf9RM026679 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:41:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HId8d5004713 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:39:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HId64g059456; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:39:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HId34h059422 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:39:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6HIaltY021464 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:36:47 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F97244.8000606@thibault.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:39:00 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval cloth dyes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If you're interested in a quickie idea of medieval dye possibilities, there are several books available with titles similar to "Natural dyes" or whatever. You could buy/get from the library, and look at those, loooking for plants indigenous to your region of interest, and look at mordants that were available to your region, and then you have a range of what might be possible. And after that, consider that you could dye in one color and then another, to get gradations on the color wheel. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 14:44:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HIipRM026701 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:44:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIgFd5004867 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:42:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIgD4g062064; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:42:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIgA4g061698 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:42:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f39.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.57]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B9735EE005 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:42:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002701c46c2d$ce8494e0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:42:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] replacement of bodice piece X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi all of you who helped me answering my questions. I did replace the piece today, as a matter of fact it was quite easy, but i was nervous all the time because i had put so much work into this. I also stitched the skirt with cartridge pleats to the waistband, so it is ready to be taken up in the hem tomorrow on my lady. I made 3 different lengths of cartridge, 1 cm in the front and back, and 2 cm in the sides and 3 cm in the center of the sides. This looks beautifull on the pannier. It is evening now and two dark to take photos, but i shall take some tomorrow. I think it is one of my best works for long times. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 14:51:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HIpGRM026789 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:51:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HInEd5005223 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:49:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HInD4g069623; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:49:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HInA4g069394 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:49:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 37C391800742 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:49:05 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.30) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 17 Jul 2004 18:47:13 -0000 Received: by ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 24CE186AE1; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:49:05 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:49:05 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:49:05 +0000 Subject: Parure was RE: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040717184905.24CE186AE1@ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Molly, A parure is a set of matched jewellery which often involves a necklace of some sort. I saw the most beautiful Regency era cameo parure that went up for auction about 5 years ago and went for $1500 Canadian - still in its original fitted box. It consisted of a necklace, tiara, hair comb, earrings, brooch, bracelet, and ring. If my husband had let me I might have morgatged the house for it. Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > Question for the jewelry experts. This type of necklace is that what is > meant by the term "parure"? > http://www.hallmarkent.com/photoPopup.php?filename=SnowQueen_hirez_001.jpg > > > Molly -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 14:53:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HIrYRM026799 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:53:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIp3d5005312 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:51:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIot4g070863; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:50:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIor4g070775 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:50:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004071718504701200fjb8qe>; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:50:47 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:48:48 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have a book that might help. It is what appears to be a basic book on natural dyes (ok I haven't had a chance to read it yet). Natural Dyes by Gwen Fereday ISBN 1-893063-07-0 This book shows the varied results of different mediums on animal and vegetable fibers and tells you how the results were achieved. Using this information and combined with the knowledge of what materials would have been available should answer your question. This particular book shows me an astounding variety of colors. It also has a section on how to extract dyes from plant materials and gives an idea of the colors you should get from them. ...someday I'll get back to this little obsession... Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 10:26 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes This is a question that's been bothering me for a while. It's somewhat frivolous, but it's Saturday afternoon and I'm bored and I don't wanna work. My understanding (and this is very, very generally speaking) of clothing dyes in the Medieval period - let's say, from around the 11th through 15th centuries - is thus: Colors which appear abundantly in nature and are indiginous to a particular region, would have been used abundantly in the colors of fabrics and other textiles. Say, a bright yellow flower overflows the fields of a county in Southern Ireland from May to August of every year, so you can find a lot of yellow cloth and dyes in that region. Wool fabric would often be .... whatever color the sheep in that village were. And so forth. Conversely, any substance/color which is extremely rare or must come from far away, goes up in price and rarity in direct proportion to its scarcity. The best example of this would probably be chermisi. Okay, so having stated these basic premises, I had gone on to assume that (again, very generally speaking) if you were looking over French countryside in the 14th century, what you would see farm labourers wearing would primarily be earth tones, with some colors here and there where they could afford them, had bartered for them, or had become resourceful and creative enough to invent from whatever nature has provided to them. So a few years ago, I'm reading Michael Crichton's Timeline. I adore his books and I realize that they're primarily fantasy, but he normally does a spectacular amount of research for them, and is very careful about his details. I was therefore somewhat floored when the main characters approach the seamstress who is finishing off their medieval clothing (which has been made *to the most exact detail to be period correct* including being rolled in dirt and made to look well worn), and the seamstress GETS UP FROM HER SEWING MACHINE to help with the fittings. Well, okay, I thought, that's an easy slip. Perhaps she has a special sewing machine that somehow makes stitches that replicate what hand-sewing in the 14th century would have looked like. Then, when the characters arrive in 1357 France, they're looking out over the peasantry. Said peasantry and farm laboreres are described as being attired in every color of the rainbow, crimsons and bright blues and yellows, as they work in the fields. NOW I'm beginning to feel like I'm visiting a ren faire instead of traveling back in time. I'm far, far from expert when it comes to the Medieval period; my store of knowledge generally stops around the time that Henry VII took the crown. I know bits and pieces that I've picked up regarding Medieval clothing and I've begun researching it, but I'm still in the very basic stages. But this is a question that has bothered me ever since I first read that book, and I know there are people here who know *A LOT* about the Medieval period as far as clothing and dyes are concerned. So ... was he just making an erroneous assumption based on Rogers & Hammerstein musicals? Or have I gotten the wrong impression about what your average lower-income citizen would have been garbed in to work the fields? -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 14:54:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HIsvRM026805 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:54:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIsMd5005504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:54:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIsL4g073345; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:54:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HIsI4g073271 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:54:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004071718541201100t365ne>; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:54:12 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] replacement of bodice piece Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:52:13 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <002701c46c2d$ce8494e0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne, That is saying something considering the beauty of the work you do. I'm glad you are happy with the end product. I did a wedding dress a year ago that I still want to steal back from the bride and redo the skirt on because I'm not happy with it. Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 11:42 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] replacement of bodice piece Hi all of you who helped me answering my questions. I did replace the piece today, as a matter of fact it was quite easy, but i was nervous all the time because i had put so much work into this. I also stitched the skirt with cartridge pleats to the waistband, so it is ready to be taken up in the hem tomorrow on my lady. I made 3 different lengths of cartridge, 1 cm in the front and back, and 2 cm in the sides and 3 cm in the center of the sides. This looks beautifull on the pannier. It is evening now and two dark to take photos, but i shall take some tomorrow. I think it is one of my best works for long times. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 15:21:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HJL6RM026918 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:21:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJJCd5006891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:19:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJJ84g086296; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:19:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJJ44g086241 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:19:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f39.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.57]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 58A6A47FE1C for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:19:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002701c46c32$faa505a0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:19:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] favourite movie costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, It is very hard to say, because i have so many to choose from, i dont think i can say the most favourite, but here are some: I loved "The draughtsman's contrakt" They were a little bit exagerated, but that is what i like about them. Dangerous Liasions, Valmonts costume where he walks home to anties chateau from church. Teatre Solleils version of the life of Molliere, they were so beautifull. Elizabeth R off cause and last but not least, Shakespeare in Love, the dress Elizabeth I wears in the beginning, big wheelfarthingale with ruff pleated ruffle over the wheel-- loved that!! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 15:24:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HJOZRM026930 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:24:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJMCd5007105 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:22:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJMB4g087903; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:22:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJLm4g087691 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:21:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f39.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.57]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B62E947FE38 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:21:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003901c46c33$5ce15660$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040716.231414.-154613081.2.Seamstrix@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Spuds Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:22:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, My german anscestors imigrated to Denmark to grow potatoes in 18th century. The king offered land for those who would try it! Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost]Spuds > Hoo-boy. Perhaps we should take this discussion to a Period Foods list? > In any case a simple Google on potato brings you to a whole web site > devoted to it's history whereon you find: > > http://www.indepthinfo.com/potato/history.shtml > > "Western man did not come in contact with the potato until as late as > 1537 when the Conquistadors tramped through Peru. And it was even later, > about 1570, that the first potato made its way across the Atlantic to > make a start on the continent of Europe. " > > "It would take three decades for the potato to spread to the rest of > Europe. Even so the potato was cultivated primarily as a curiosity by > amateur botanists. Resistance was due to ingrained eating habits, the > tuber's reputation as a food for the underpriveleged and perhaps most > importantly its relationship to poisonous plants." > > "Europe would wait until the 1780's before the potato gained prominence > anywhere. About 1780 the people of Ireland adopted the rugged food crop." > > The only place the potato is not a veggie but a starch is on the food > pyramid. It is certainly a vegetable as it is neither animal nor > mineral! > > And now back to our regularly scheduled costuming discussions.... > > > Karen > > > > On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:34:56 -0700 "Molly Boone" > writes: > > um concept here. The Irish "Potato famine" was labeled such for a > > reason. > > They also grew them in the highlands I believe. This is not a "New > > world" veggie. Nor is it a veggie per se, Potatoes are a starch. > Wrong or > > not it is what they used maybe props didn't know a turnip and a potato > are > > 2 different root foods. > > > > Are you just feeling argumentative? > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 15:44:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HJiVRM027057 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:44:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJgcd5008576 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:42:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJgb4g098591; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:42:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJgW4g098554 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:42:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.144] (pm5-144.eos.net [205.133.149.144]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HJgSEM022844 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:42:29 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:40:10 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407171635.i6HGZM4h094680@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 543 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Tiffany wrote: > Calling other people thin-skinned is a convenient excuse > the tactless employ to get away with being unkind. Ah, but what constitutes "tactless" is completely subjective. If I say I'm tactful, then I am. But if I say you're tactless, then you are. Gail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 16:00:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HK06RM027118 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:00:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJwJd5009536 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:58:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJwH4g012116; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:58:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.70]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HJwB4g011977 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:58:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from purplkat@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.15]) by mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I10000CVI53UG@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [167.206.5.46] (Forwarded-For: 127.0.0.1, [209.139.23.122]) by mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mshttpd); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:58:06 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:58:06 -0400 From: purplkat@optonline.net Subject: Re: RE: [h-cost] preservation and cleaning To: Historical Costume Message-id: <108ba7107811.107811108ba7@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Tell Gran to chuck it into the washer if whe wants to bring a pile of fiber bits and shredded lace to the reunion... I would wash it in the sink, use hair shampoo (the baby shampoo stuff) and cooler than hand temp water. Gentle 'swishing' and slow movements. Anything harsher than 'swishing' might make the dress disintigrate. Also, be careful taking the wet dress out of the sink, I wasn't and now there is a tear in the back of an old silk kimono. (ouch!) Katheryne > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [h-costume-bounces@indra.com] > On Behalf Of ailith> Greetings. > > A friend of mine has a child's dress from the early 20's that needs > cleaned and preserved. It belongs to her Gran who would like to take > it to a family reunion. Gran wants her to chuck it in the washer and > put it in a box; my friend would like to gently clean the dress and > then perhaps frame it. > > Thanks so much. > kate _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 16:02:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HK2WRM027129 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:02:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HK16d5009772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:01:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HK154g017196; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:01:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m25.mx.aol.com (imo-m25.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HK114g016936 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:01:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.f6.3d2b9a71 (4584) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:00:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:00:51 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/17/04 1:51:39 PM Central Daylight Time, Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net writes: This particular book shows me an astounding variety of colors. Thanks for the info on this from everyone! I'm actually relieved, because I'm not a big fan of dull colors. The popular mythology (which, I am sorry to say, is being passed on and perpetrated in many SCA and ren faire organizations) seems to be that peasants would/could only have been garbed in dull earth tones, and that's depressing. It sounds like Crichton had his ducks in a row when it came to the colors he had the peasants wearing, after all. But I'm still not over the sewing machine slip ::grin::. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 16:12:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HKCbRM027215 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:12:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HK9Xd5010441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:09:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HK9V4g031794; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:09:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HK9T4g031633 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:09:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004071720092201200fo7i0e>; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:09:22 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:07:23 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <20040717184905.24CE186AE1@ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: Parure X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ok so the sets I have that are matched necklace, earrings and bracelets are Parures even though the number of pieces isn't the same as the one you reference? Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Danielle Nunn-Weinberg Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 11:49 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Parure was RE: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Hi Molly, A parure is a set of matched jewellery which often involves a necklace of some sort. I saw the most beautiful Regency era cameo parure that went up for auction about 5 years ago and went for $1500 Canadian - still in its original fitted box. It consisted of a necklace, tiara, hair comb, earrings, brooch, bracelet, and ring. If my husband had let me I might have morgatged the house for it. Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > Question for the jewelry experts. This type of necklace is that what is > meant by the term "parure"? > http://www.hallmarkent.com/photoPopup.php?filename=SnowQueen_hirez_001.jpg > > > Molly -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp ?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 16:26:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HKQeRM027232 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:26:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HKPrd5011554 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:25:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HKPn4g045426; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:25:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HKPk4g045398 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:25:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-73-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.73.157]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6HKPYBs032596 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:25:42 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040717130317.0185c6b0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:06:24 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] imperfect clothing In-Reply-To: <104.4b8ac735.2e2ab8f7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >Also, sometimes a "mistake" can end up being a really cool new way to do >things. About things that one thought, at first, were mistakes: If it reads like a mistake, even if I planned it, I rip it out, calling it bad design. But if it reads like a deliberate thing, even if it wasn't intentional, I leave it in, calling it good design. I have redesigned several things based on good-looking "mistakes", and have ripped out several other things based on how my planned work looked like it didn't belong there, like a mistake. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 16:28:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HKSSRM027238 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:28:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HKQGd5011629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:26:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HKQF4g045656; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:26:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HKPw4g045501 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:25:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-73-157.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.73.157]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6HKPYBu032596 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:25:54 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040717130818.01944a70@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:14:34 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: RE: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ...Medievalcloth dyes In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >> Well, one problem with this theory is that natural dyestuff does not >always produce the same color on a textile. Blue flowers are not used to >successfully produce blue fabric. Many colorful plants and flower petals >produce a murky sage greenish brown. My understanding is that low-end fabrics were dyed with the remains of other dye baths, poured in together to get one more dye bath out of them. This practice would always produce something in the brownish range. A dye job in one of these mixes would never match any other. There would also be lots of variation in color depending on the proportions of the original dyes. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 17:35:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HLZKRM027545 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:35:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLYld5016209 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:34:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLYk4g086341; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:34:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLYC4g085985 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:34:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B9C21625 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:34:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p279.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.217.25]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E45CC5DF for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:34:11 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Sergeant's Trials WAS SCA Seargeant/Some medievalprices... Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:34:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20040716153226.51338.qmail@web50408.mail.yahoo.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Got a little thrown off there. In Calontir one of the arts awards is the Golden Swan. Arian -----Original Message----- Golden Swan 12 categories-8 required, choice of any 4 electives: _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 17:36:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HLaWRM027550 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:36:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLYGd5016177 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:34:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLYD4g085991; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:34:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLYB4g085969 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:34:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3B721625 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:34:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p279.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.217.25]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E07A4C5DF for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:34:09 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:34:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF5C@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- > One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle > Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. ~~~~~~~~~ Who in their right mind would want to trim a bear? :) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 17:37:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HLbbRM027553 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:37:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLYpd5016224 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:34:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLYp4g086402; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:34:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLYF4g086017 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:34:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB0221653 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:34:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p279.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.217.25]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F251C5DF for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:34:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Spuds Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:34:20 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20040716.231414.-154613081.2.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO SCA Food and Feast (a yahoo groups) have discussed this (not to mention tomatoes and turkeys). I do not fully agree with some of the dates given and generalized statements as I have seen contradictions in other sources but he's close enough for government standards IMO. De -----Original Message----- Hoo-boy. Perhaps we should take this discussion to a Period Foods list? In any case a simple Google on potato brings you to a whole web site devoted to it's history whereon you find: http://www.indepthinfo.com/potato/history.shtml "Western man did not come in contact with the potato until as late as 1537 when the Conquistadors tramped through Peru. And it was even later, about 1570, that the first potato made its way across the Atlantic to make a start on the continent of Europe. " "It would take three decades for the potato to spread to the rest of Europe. Even so the potato was cultivated primarily as a curiosity by amateur botanists. Resistance was due to ingrained eating habits, the tuber's reputation as a food for the underpriveleged and perhaps most importantly its relationship to poisonous plants." "Europe would wait until the 1780's before the potato gained prominence anywhere. About 1780 the people of Ireland adopted the rugged food crop." The only place the potato is not a veggie but a starch is on the food pyramid. It is certainly a vegetable as it is neither animal nor mineral! And now back to our regularly scheduled costuming discussions.... Karen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 17:45:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HLjhRM027583 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:45:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLf3d5016647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:41:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLf24g089651; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:41:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLew4h089627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:40:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6HLku5e019777 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:46:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i6HLkuCf019776 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:46:56 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:46:55 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407171746.55027.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 17 July 2004 2:34 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: [snip] > John Edmonds has written an excellent and inexpensive booklet on the > mechanism of woad dying and the history of the woad industry. Find it > here, under "publications": > http://www.colourhistory.cwc.net/Homepage.htm > I think David Brown carries it too, in the U.S. Edmonds also sells it, along with his pamphlets on the dyeing of Tyrian purple and another book on medieval dyeing technique, on Ebay. His e-store is called "Historic Textile Dyes UK" The price of each of the books is 6 GBP (about $11.25 in USD) . Shipping to the US is 3 GBP (very roughly $3.50 USD). This link goes right to the "woad" booklet page: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6912779660&ssPageName=MERC_VI These are all "Buy it now" items; no bidding required. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 17:53:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HLrTRM027599 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:53:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLpQd5017361 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:51:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLpE4g095066; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:51:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLpB4g095036 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:51:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4A527A85 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:51:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p279.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.217.25]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C13C1C5E7 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:51:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:51:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- > One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle > Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. ~~~~~~~~~ Who in their right mind would want to trim a bear? :) ~~~~~~~~~~ Visions of bears with poodle cuts dancing in my mind now. :P _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 17:54:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HLstRM027623 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:54:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLrwd5017544 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:54:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLrw4g096511; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:53:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f9.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLrv4g096462 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:53:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 14:53:51 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.37 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:53:51 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.37] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:53:51 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2004 21:53:51.0820 (UTC) FILETIME=[8C29A0C0:01C46C48] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: And now for something completely different ... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com >So a few years ago, I'm reading Michael Crichton's Timeline. I adore his >books and I realize that they're primarily fantasy, but he normally does a >spectacular amount of research for them, and is very careful about his >details. Generally. >I was therefore somewhat floored when the main characters approach the >seamstress who is finishing off their medieval clothing (which has been >made >*to the most exact detail to be period correct* including being rolled in >dirt and >made to look well worn), and the seamstress GETS UP FROM HER SEWING MACHINE >to help with the fittings. Well, okay, I thought, that's an easy slip... Don't even get me started on the shoes :) And I liked the book. >work in the fields. NOW I'm beginning to feel like I'm visiting a ren >faire >instead of traveling back in time. I believe that part's actually accurate. >So ... was he just making an erroneous assumption based on Rogers & >Hammerstein musicals? Or have I gotten the wrong impression about what >your >average lower-income citizen would have been garbed in to work the fields? The latter :) My understanding is that bright colors aren't a problem. KEEPING the colors bright is more of an issue. Marc (I'd give more detail, but I've already seen the sorts of answers you are getting already) _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 18:05:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HM5nRM027702 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:05:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLGLd5014913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:16:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLGI4g076693; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:16:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HLGC4h076642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:16:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6HLDttY022201 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:13:55 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40F99719.6090905@thibault.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:16:09 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Parure References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Molly Boone wrote: > ok so the sets I have that are matched necklace, earrings and bracelets are > Parures even though the number of pieces isn't the same as the one you > reference? "Parure" is a group word rather like "suite." You can have a suite of living room furniture which is different than your neighbors in design and type of pieces. From Merriam-Webster online http://www.m-w.com : Main Entry: pa·rure Pronunciation: p&-'rur Function: noun Etymology: French, literally, adornment, from Old French pareure, from parer to prepare, adorn -- more at PARE : a matched set of ornaments (as jewelry) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Abstract words such as glory, honor, courage, or hallow were obscene. -- Ernest Hemingway _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 18:26:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HMQKRM027816 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:26:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HMNHd5019467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:23:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HMNE4g011898; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:23:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HMNA4g011867 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:23:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14275 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:27:20 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:27:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes In-Reply-To: <200407171746.55027.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > On Saturday 17 July 2004 2:34 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: > [snip] > > John Edmonds has written an excellent and inexpensive booklet on the > > mechanism of woad dying and the history of the woad industry. Find it > > here, under "publications": > > http://www.colourhistory.cwc.net/Homepage.htm > > Edmonds also sells it, along with his pamphlets on the dyeing of > Tyrian purple and another book on medieval dyeing technique, on Ebay. > > His e-store is called "Historic Textile Dyes UK" The price of each of the > books is 6 GBP (about $11.25 in USD) . Shipping to the US is 3 GBP (very > roughly $3.50 USD). This link goes right to the "woad" booklet page: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6912779660&ssPageName=MERC_VI Hmm, the link I gave was Edmonds' own site. Looks like his eBay prices are higher. On his own page, the Woad booklet is listed as only 4 GBP, and the booklets on "Tyrian or Imperial Purple Dye" and "The History and Practice of Eighteenth Century Dyeing" are 4.50 GBP each. Interestingly, the eBay listing includes two more titles that aren't on his own page: "The Transition from Natural to Synthetic Dyes" (which I think I saw at Kalamazoo last year) and "Medieval Textile Dyeing" (which I haven't seen and will probably need to get; it has a 2003 date). I wonder if he's abandoned his own page and gone to eBay instead. That might explain the higher prices, if his own page is out of date. In any case, it would be worth a direct email before you go the eBay route. I'm sure he'd be glad to sell as many as he can, by whatever route. His email address is on his site. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 18:32:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6HMWGRM027849 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:32:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HMNrd5019512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:23:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HMNq4g012221; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:23:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.119]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6HMNm4g012213 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:23:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-50-209.jps.net ([209.165.50.209] helo=KALC) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Blxat-0001oC-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:23:48 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: fading colors - RE: [h-cost] RE: And now for something completely different ... Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:23:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Marc wrote: >The latter :) My understanding is that bright colors aren't a problem. KEEPING the colors bright is more of an issue. I, not so long ago, spent a few weekends in my kitchen extracting dye, from all sorts of 16th century dyestuff to test out tinted starch and some of the colors were shockingly bright. I was very surprised. And yes, many faded very quickly. I wasn't trying to actualy dye fabric which might have included methods to make the colors more stable, but right out of the dye bath, some fairly bright tones certainly appeared. Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 20:10:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I0AaRM028310 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:10:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I09Vd5025815 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:09:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I09P4g066470; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:09:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I09O4g066454 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:09:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13E5A5E087 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040717170827.022c5440@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:09:29 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 542 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hiya, I will have a red H on my badge again this year. And I believe my roommate will be taking your hat class, something she is looking forward to. Anyone else going to be there? I look forward to seeing others from this list. Kimiko FyneHats2@aol.com wrote: Who else from h-costume will be in Van Nuys, CA for the Costume College? Is there some way to identify ourselves, maybe with an H on our badge? I will be teaching a course on Sunday morning about making a Victorian bustle hat and would love to put faces to several of the names I have become acquainted with on this list. Cheers, Donna Scarfe Fyne Hats By Felicity Period Headgear for Past Ages www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 20:38:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I0cORM028461 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:38:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I0bId5027019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:37:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I0bD4g080653; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:37:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I0bB4h080618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:37:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6I0h6lJ020105 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:43:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i6I0h6E2020104 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:43:06 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:43:05 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407172043.05722.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 17 July 2004 6:27 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > On Saturday 17 July 2004 2:34 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: > > [snip] > Hmm, the link I gave was Edmonds' own site. Looks like his eBay prices are > higher. On his own page, the Woad booklet is listed as only 4 GBP, and the > booklets on "Tyrian or Imperial Purple Dye" and "The History and Practice > of Eighteenth Century Dyeing" are 4.50 GBP each. > > Interestingly, the eBay listing includes two more titles that aren't on > his own page: "The Transition from Natural to Synthetic Dyes" (which I > think I saw at Kalamazoo last year) and "Medieval Textile Dyeing" (which I > haven't seen and will probably need to get; it has a 2003 date). I wonder > if he's abandoned his own page and gone to eBay instead. That might > explain the higher prices, if his own page is out of date. I don't know. I didn't realize that your link was to his own page; I'll try it. > > In any case, it would be worth a direct email before you go the eBay > route. I'm sure he'd be glad to sell as many as he can, by whatever route. > His email address is on his site. Thanks for the information, Robin. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 20:41:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I0fBRM028475 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:41:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I0eCd5027271 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:40:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I0eC4g082048; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:40:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I0e94h082032 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:40:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6I0k77j020129 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:46:07 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i6I0k7uu020128 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:46:07 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:46:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407172046.06480.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 17 July 2004 6:27 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > On Saturday 17 July 2004 2:34 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: > > [snip] > In any case, it would be worth a direct email before you go the eBay > route. I'm sure he'd be glad to sell as many as he can, by whatever route. > His email address is on his site. I just tried the link on Edwards' home page for "publications" and got a 404 error. It may come down to whether one prefers to pay more for the convenience of paying Mr. Edwards by Paypal instead of doing the email-request route. (Or it may be that Mr. Edwards has, in fact, given up on selling his pamphlets via his own page and is selling them exclusively via Ebay....) -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 20:46:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I0knRM028484 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:46:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I0ijd5027517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:44:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I0ii4g084441; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:44:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I0if4h084425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:44:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6I0odXF020153 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:50:39 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i6I0ocda020152 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:50:38 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] imperfect clothing Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:50:38 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <4.1.20040717130317.0185c6b0@mail.frys.com> In-Reply-To: <4.1.20040717130317.0185c6b0@mail.frys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407172050.38401.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 17 July 2004 4:06 pm, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > >Also, sometimes a "mistake" can end up being a really cool new way to do > >things. > > About things that one thought, at first, were mistakes: If it reads like a > mistake, even if I planned it, I rip it out, calling it bad design. But if > it reads like a deliberate thing, even if it wasn't intentional, I leave it > in, calling it good design. I have redesigned several things based on > good-looking "mistakes", and have ripped out several other things based on > how my planned work looked like it didn't belong there, like a mistake. If the mistake turns out to have a good result, or is unnoticeable when the garment is worn, I leave it alone. If it's plainly a mistake, I fix it if doing so doesn't take too much ripping; otherwise, I either give up or start over. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 21:02:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I12YRM028552 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:02:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I10hd5028353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:00:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I10W4g092078; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:00:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I10U4g092039 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:00:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15103 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:04:40 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:04:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes In-Reply-To: <200407172043.05722.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > I don't know. I didn't realize that your link was to his own page; > I'll try it. And here's John Edmonds' site again, for those who missed: http://www.colourhistory.cwc.net/Homepage.htm He has some 19th c. dye recipes and good background information there, but it does look like he hasn't updated in a while. He's fairly well-known in the field (of course, there aren't many academics working in historic dyeing techniques!). He was in the news some time back for coming up with a likely method for dying imperial purple, I believe, and he speaks at the usual range of conferences in Britain. I haven't met him myself, but he attended the DISTAFF sessions at Leeds at least one year, where my co-organizer met him. Who know, maybe we'll get him out to Kalamazoo some year. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 21:18:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I1ITRM028587 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:18:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I1FRd5029115 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:15:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I1FO4g099318; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:15:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I1FM4g099286 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:15:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15244 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:19:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:19:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes In-Reply-To: <200407172046.06480.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > I just tried the link on Edwards' home page for "publications" and got > a 404 error. Odd, I was just there five minutes ago. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 21:41:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I1f2RM028677 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:41:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I1djd5000447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:39:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I1df4g011384; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:39:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I1da4g011289 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:39:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 12B9018006CA for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:39:31 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.33) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 18 Jul 2004 01:37:38 -0000 Received: by ws7-4.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F3414CA06C; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:39:30 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-4.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:39:30 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:39:30 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Parure X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-4.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040718013930.F3414CA06C@ws7-4.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, they are parures. There is no set number of item - it is actually a rathe imprecise term. However, "set" of jewellery seems to have replaced the term in modern common usage. Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > ok so the sets I have that are matched necklace, earrings and bracelets are > Parures even though the number of pieces isn't the same as the one you > reference? > > Molly > > -----Original Message----- > Hi Molly, > > A parure is a set of matched jewellery which often involves a necklace of > some sort. I saw the most beautiful Regency era cameo parure that went up > for auction about 5 years ago and went for $1500 Canadian - still in its > original fitted box. It consisted of a necklace, tiara, hair comb, > earrings, brooch, bracelet, and ring. If my husband had let me I might have > morgatged the house for it. > > Cheers, > Danielle -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 22:35:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I2ZwRM028960 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:35:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I2Wqd5003521 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:32:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I2Wm4g037175; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:32:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I2Wj4g037143 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:32:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m239.in-tch.com [216.166.191.239]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6I2WhN23286 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:32:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40F9E237.20209@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:36:39 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ...Medievalcloth dyes References: <4.1.20040717130818.01944a70@mail.frys.com> In-Reply-To: <4.1.20040717130818.01944a70@mail.frys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ! I've never heard that one, although exhaust baths (of a single color) would certainly account for paler shades. I got an amazing range of shades from deep red through tangerine to a pale peach all from one batch of madder (using both wool and silk yarns). --sue Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: >> My understanding is that low-end fabrics were dyed with the remains of > other dye baths, poured in together to get one more dye bath out of them. > This practice would always produce something in the brownish range. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 22:51:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I2prRM029048 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:51:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I2opd5004604 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:50:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I2oo4g046437; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:50:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.ettu.net (rrcs-west-65-26-169-212.biz.rr.com [65.26.169.212]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I2ol4g046365 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:50:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from reddawn.net (js.reddawn.net [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.ettu.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0505B4264A for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:14:22 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <40F9E590.5000401@reddawn.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:50:56 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A couple of comments on the Edmonds dye books... I got mine from Amazon UK over Christmas. I don't know if they still sell them, but it's another source to look at. One of the books was misprinted and I had to send it back, so check over copies carefully. I had absolutely no trouble getting a replacement, it just took several weeks shipping time. I thought the books were interesting, but at times very anectdotal and lacking in the kind of detail I would have liked. I also did not feel they were that well written, sometimes the topic wandered or just changed completely. And they need proofreading. But aside from that I think they were worth the roughly $6 each. Dawn Robin Netherton wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > >>On Saturday 17 July 2004 2:34 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: >>[snip] >> >>>John Edmonds has written an excellent and inexpensive booklet on the >>>mechanism of woad dying and the history of the woad industry. Find it >>>here, under "publications": >>>http://www.colourhistory.cwc.net/Homepage.htm >> >>Edmonds also sells it, along with his pamphlets on the dyeing of >>Tyrian purple and another book on medieval dyeing technique, on Ebay. >> >>His e-store is called "Historic Textile Dyes UK" The price of each of the >>books is 6 GBP (about $11.25 in USD) . Shipping to the US is 3 GBP (very >>roughly $3.50 USD). This link goes right to the "woad" booklet page: >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6912779660&ssPageName=MERC_VI > > > Hmm, the link I gave was Edmonds' own site. Looks like his eBay prices are > higher. On his own page, the Woad booklet is listed as only 4 GBP, and the > booklets on "Tyrian or Imperial Purple Dye" and "The History and Practice > of Eighteenth Century Dyeing" are 4.50 GBP each. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 17 22:53:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I2rTRM029059 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:53:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I2qSd5004688 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:52:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I2qR4g047239; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:52:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I2qO4h047213 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:52:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6I2wMx2020435 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:58:22 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i6I2wL0J020434 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:58:21 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:58:21 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407172258.21841.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 17 July 2004 9:19 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Sat, 17 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > I just tried the link on Edwards' home page for "publications" and got > > a 404 error. > > Odd, I was just there five minutes ago. It could be my system I've been having problems with my browser configuration. Nope. I got the same error.... Oh, wait a minute. There are two identical sets of links to "Home Page", "Dye Recipes," "Publications," whatever, at the *top* of the page and at the *bottom* of the page. First two times, I tried the link for "Publications" at the bottom of the page. Just tried the one at the top of the page, and it works fine. Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 00:08:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I48kRM029242 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:08:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I46Ed5008398 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I4634g083817; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:06:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts7.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.165]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I4624g083761 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:06:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.5.215]) by simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040718040457.XYUA18206.simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:04:57 -0400 Message-ID: <01b601c46c7c$53515480$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:00:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I dunno, some of the bears around here get pretty unruly... Running away now. Sheridan > > > -----Original Message----- > > One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle > > Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. > ~~~~~~~~~ > Who in their right mind would want to trim a bear? :) > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 00:53:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I4rxRM029326 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:53:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I4omd5010484 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:50:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I4oj4g004120; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:50:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I4oa4g004020 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:50:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Appin1@aol.com) Received: from Appin1@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.da.ee029de (3940) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:50:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Appin1@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:50:25 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medieval cloth dyes To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5113 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A few years back, a friend of mine did extensive research into natural dyes. She produced several color wheel of wool dyed with natural dyes, along with the list of what dye and mordant were used. The range of colors was astonishing, from pale yellows to carnation pinks, brick reds, and lovely greens. So much for muddy earth tones. I once watched a lady dye wool with indigo. As I came back during the course of the day, the dye became "tired" and produced lighter and lighter shades. By the end of the day, she had a full range of blues on display, from very dark (almost navy) to aquamarine. So, not only can you get a large range of colors using natural dyes, but within the individual dye lot, you can get a wide variation. Hope this helps. Kathleen Norvell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 01:11:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I5BKRM029392 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:11:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I58Bd5011402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:08:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I5864g012043; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:08:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f38.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.88]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I5824g011966 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:08:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:07:56 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.44 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:07:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.44] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:07:56 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jul 2004 05:07:56.0445 (UTC) FILETIME=[2FF804D0:01C46C85] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: And now for something completely different ... Medievalcloth dyes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "lisa-list" >>The latter :) My understanding is that bright colors aren't a problem. >>KEEPING the colors bright is more of an issue. >I, not so long ago, spent a few weekends in my kitchen extracting dye, from >all sorts of 16th century dyestuff to test out tinted starch and some of >the >colors were shockingly bright. I was very surprised. And yes, many faded >very quickly. I wasn't trying to actualy dye fabric which might have >included methods to make the colors more stable, but right out of the dye >bath, some fairly bright tones certainly appeared. My understanding is that the mordant can really have an effect on the color outcome. My assumption is that natural dyes eventually fade, between washing and the sun. But that's "eventually" compared to modern chemical dyes which generally don't fade much or at all. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 01:30:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6I5USRM029458 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:30:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I5SCd5012517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:28:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I5S74g021433; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:28:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts6.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.164]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6I5S14g021379 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:28:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.5.215]) by simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040718052750.XORE10364.simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:27:50 -0400 Message-ID: <01c601c46c87$c87df820$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:26:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: And now for something completely different ... Medieval cloth dyes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here's a picture I found online of some natural dyed yarns, just scroll down the page a bit. Definitely not as glum and muddy as some folks would have us beleive. http://www.gaiser.org/knitblog/archives/000261.html A page on Turkish carpets, made with natural dyed wools: http://www.themagiccarpet.biz/DOBAG.htm I find it helpful to see this sort of thing, a person can describe the colors, but the imagination can only do so much. (or too much in some cases) :-) This has been a helpful discussion, thanks! Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 07:03:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IB34RM010557 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:03:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IAxnd5028589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 04:59:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IAxb4g070376; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 04:59:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.netspace.net.au (cumulus.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.72]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IAxY4g070288 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 04:59:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from stilskin@netspace.net.au) Received: from localhost (sprinkle.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.77]) by mail.netspace.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A651A6C43C for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:59:23 +1000 (EST) Received: from dialup-a1-292.Melbourne.netspace.net.au (dialup-a1-292.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.113.247.38]) by webmail.netspace.net.au (IMP) with HTTP for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:59:23 +1000 Message-ID: <1090148363.40fa580b9ac0c@webmail.netspace.net.au> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:59:23 +1000 From: stilskin@netspace.net.au To: Historical Costume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] And now for another thing completely different (Broadway) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A stage musical based upon Monty Python and the Holy Grail is on the hunt for financing, I have heard. The proposed cast will include Hank Azaria and a few other names that skim out of my Sunday night computing brain, -C. ------------------------------------------------------------ This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 07:26:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IBQ7RM010713 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:26:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IBOEd5029871 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:24:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IBOA4g081309; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:24:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IBO54h081272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:24:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.172]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i6IBT7Up002550 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:29:07 +1000 Message-ID: <06d001c46cb9$38403ca0$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1090148363.40fa580b9ac0c@webmail.netspace.net.au> Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for another thing completely different (Broadway) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:20:20 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I heard about this in the weekend paper. Apparently it's going to be called "Spamalot" We're Knights of the Round Table We dance whene're we're able.. (etc!) Glenda. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 8:59 PM Subject: [h-cost] And now for another thing completely different (Broadway) > A stage musical based upon Monty Python and the Holy Grail is on the hunt for > financing, I have heard. > > The proposed cast will include Hank Azaria and a few other names that skim out > of my Sunday night computing brain, > > -C. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 07:47:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IBlgRM010804 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:47:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IBg1d5000839 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:42:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IBft4g089127; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:41:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.suscom.net (smtp2.suscom.net [64.78.83.231]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IBfq4h089088 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 05:41:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp2.suscom.net [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1561CDD2D for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp2 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 02271-09 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (unknown [64.78.97.244]) by smtp2.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9537E1CDD36 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <021401c46cbc$2857f140$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1090148363.40fa580b9ac0c@webmail.netspace.net.au> Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for another thing completely different (Broadway) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:41:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 6:59 AM Subject: [h-cost] And now for another thing completely different (Broadway) > A stage musical based upon Monty Python and the Holy Grail is on the hunt for > financing, I have heard. > > The proposed cast will include Hank Azaria and a few other names that skim out > of my Sunday night computing brain, David Hyde Pierce and Tim Curry. Wanna go, wanna see!! And it was written by Eric Idle. Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 08:19:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ICJgRM011354 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:19:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ICHSd5002229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:17:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ICHN4g004487; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:17:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt10.ihug.co.nz (grunt10.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.52]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ICHL4g004363 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:17:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p89-max20.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.118.161.219] by grunt10.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BmAbM-0008AQ-00; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:17:09 +1200 Message-ID: <009e01c46cc1$1feb51a0$dba176cb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <01c601c46c87$c87df820$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: And now for something completely different ...Medieval cloth dyes Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 00:16:57 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And here I have to point to several extant items that are wonderfully vibrant (true the are for the wealthy but it does go to show...;) ) http://cotumes.glittersweet.com/sca/cleves.htm At the bottom I have some samples from the Devonshire Hunt Tapestries, which I have been assured are as brilliant as they appear in my scans from a book about the tapestries. http://www.modehistorique.com/extantclothes.html Check out the red satin cloak! Yes reds and blues can be iffy to photograph, but this is still intense even if you tone it down somewhat. http://glittersweet.com/15citalianyellow velvet.jpg What can I say. Vibrant and wonderfully classing and ott. I dyed some mohair in turmeric and got darn near this colour. It hasn't faded in several years. I didn't use a mordant though, and the hair is on a doll who is in storage much of the time. http://art.glittersweet.com/DSCN0176.jpg If it doesn't work (darned hotlink fixer can't distinguish...) http://art.glittersweet.com/ooak.htm scroll down to "large" http://glittersweet.com/violetsilk.jpg Late 16thC violet silk woven with silver and gold. http://glittersweet.com/plumandgold.jpg The Verney surcoat in Arnold. http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20000315/high/mb20-030.jpg Tapestry-woven in silk and wool, with some silver thread; 18-19 warp threads per in (7-8 per cm) Bed Valance 1600-1610 http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20010124/high/0168-022.jpg Silk velvet, with linen applied and embroidered in silver-gilt and silk threads in couched work and split stitch Frontal, to hang at the front of an alter. 1470-1500 English (embroidering) Wonderful dark background, and that neat English woman's dress style again:) This is just wonderful:) I have handled some silk velvet from the 1880s and it looks so similar to this. And if it is, it'll feel rather thin to modern ideals;) http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/pcd/85263202/high/4582-015.jpg Silk satin, embroidered with silk threads 1560-1600 French (possibly) Probably part of a valance. The cloak photographed by the museum that was featured above: http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20011109/high/0332-013.jpg Red satin, couched and embroidered with silver, silver-gilt and coloured silk threads, trimmed with silver-gilt and silk thread fringe and tassel, and lined with pink linen slip depicting a lemon tree branch Canvas ground, embroidered with silk and metal thread 1590-1600 English http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20010104/high/0157-002.jpg To find these I went to the main page, then selected advanced search and looked for dates 1500-1600 and in techniques I looked for silk. True these are all dependant on a few things: altering of colours in scanning etc. But they are all vibrant, and that is 500 years after they were made. Pretty well all made for the upper classes. But I recall some pretty funky colours mentioned in the finds of common folk of earlier periods as well. Come on Viking enthusiasts! I am sure there is some evidence of groovy weaving in contrasting colours? michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 08:25:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ICPhRM011483 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:25:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ICNOd5002599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:23:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ICNN4g007065; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:23:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.netspace.net.au (cumulus.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.72]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ICNL4g006968 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:23:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from stilskin@netspace.net.au) Received: from chris (dialup-a1-292.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.113.247.38]) by mail.netspace.net.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A1467019C for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:23:10 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <002a01c46cc2$85e2b920$26f771cb@chris> From: "Christopher Ballis" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1090148363.40fa580b9ac0c@webmail.netspace.net.au> <06d001c46cb9$38403ca0$eaf4fea9@glendaii> Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for another thing completely different (Broadway) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:26:56 +1000 Organization: Australian Costume Supply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Just did some searching..... By Eric Idle Stars Hank Azaria, Tim Curry and the dude wot playled Frasier's brother whoever he is. Off-Broadway trials in Chicago (whatever happened to Buffalo?) then onto NY, -C. > > A stage musical based upon Monty Python and the Holy Grail is on the hunt > for > > financing, I have heard. > > The proposed cast will include _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 08:31:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ICVDRM011499 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:31:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ICTQd5002928 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:29:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ICTO4g009786; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:29:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ICTN4g009776 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:29:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F712159E for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:29:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p131.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.133]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4BF2FC435 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:29:22 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:29:32 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <01c601c46c87$c87df820$cb6afea9@sherry> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Dye colors, was: And now for something completely different ...Medieval cloth dyes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://www.42nd-dimension.com/NFPS/nfps_colours.html Last time I put this on a list I got grouched at. But since someone else has put forward a site with dyed wool I will post this so if I get grouched at again I will have company. :) De -----Original Message----- Here's a picture I found online of some natural dyed yarns, just scroll down the page a bit. Definitely not as glum and muddy as some folks would have us beleive. http://www.gaiser.org/knitblog/archives/000261.html A page on Turkish carpets, made with natural dyed wools: http://www.themagiccarpet.biz/DOBAG.htm I find it helpful to see this sort of thing, a person can describe the colors, but the imagination can only do so much. (or too much in some cases) :-) This has been a helpful discussion, thanks! Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 09:09:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ID96RM011672 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:09:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ID65d5005585 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:06:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ID614g027130; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:06:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ID5u4g026998 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:05:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f99.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.153]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 29B575EE011 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:05:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:05:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ok, so here is the finished dress. http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia Bjarne, who now earns a trip to Tivoli this afternoon for a coffe and cake. Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 09:23:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IDNQRM011761 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:23:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IDJxd5006092 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:19:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IDJw4g033736; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:19:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from covert.brown-ring.iadfw.net (covert.brown-ring.iadfw.net [209.196.123.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IDJr4g033678 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:19:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lecachot@airmail.net) Received: from pppth08-441.ght.iadfw.net ([207.136.61.61] helo=hewlettt06rp0e) by covert.iadfw.net with smtp (Exim 4.24) id 1BmBay-0000Ye-SW for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:20:49 -0500 Message-ID: <017301c46cca$6b9c8570$3d3d88cf@hewlettt06rp0e> From: "Lee & Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:23:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't think I have words in my vocabulary to describe this dress; simply incredible seems too mild :) It is ABSOLUTELY stunning! Is that the bride? She is also beautiful, and will have a wedding dress that no one will ever duplicate. Bjarne, I think I want to kidnap you :) Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 8:05 AM Subject: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress > Ok, so here is the finished dress. > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Bjarne, who now earns a trip to Tivoli this afternoon for a coffe and cake. > > > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 09:30:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IDU9RM011799 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:30:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IDRsd5006311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:27:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IDRr4g037111; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:27:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IDRn4g037094 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:27:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BmBhk-0006vE-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:27:49 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:27:57 -0700 Message-ID: <003001c46ccb$0a4c4cf0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Very, Very Pretty! What wonderful colors for her complextion too. Did she go with the grey lacing or the the beige? I hope you get pictures of the ceremony with everyone's mouth hanging open! Have a bite of cake for me! Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 09:40:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IDeKRM011867 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:40:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IDdmd5006784 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:39:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IDdj4g042602; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:39:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail03.powweb.com (mail03.powweb.com [66.152.97.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IDdf4g042489 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:39:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from megan@benchite.com) Received: from megan2 (pcp06952326pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [69.140.8.214]) by mail03.powweb.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA5315CC3 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:41:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Megan M." To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:39:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <003001c46ccb$0a4c4cf0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Thread-Index: AcRsy1OaUJUzDU0rT0eNgibG1duHIgAAUjbQ Message-Id: <20040718134129.6AA5315CC3@mail03.powweb.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Absolutely stunning!!!!! -Megan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 10:10:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IEAmRM012025 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 10:10:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IEA4d5008098 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:10:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IE9u4g056252; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:09:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IE9s4g056164 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:09:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m223.in-tch.com [216.166.191.223]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6IE9iN24261 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:09:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FA8596.4010908@in-tch.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:13:42 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] question on hoods - Rephrased References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040714083218.00ba0ec8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> <40F53516.9020405@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <40F53516.9020405@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have. There was a brief flash, a number of years ago (10, maybe?) in my SCA area (Atenveldt--AZ, ID, UT and MT) to create a dress that was specific to laurels (as a type of informal regalia). The dress itself was a type of fitted gown, worn particolor in the major colors of one's arms, and decorated at the bottom with a series of "laurel" wreath appliques. It was worn with a hood that had a capelet (to distinguish between the head part and the shoulder part). The hood itself was one side one color, the other side, the other color. The capelet part was created separately and later joined to the hood, and it comprised a series of wedges of alternating colors (to echo the design of the dress). I actually still have mine, although I no longer wear it. In retrospect, it strikes me that we got some of the *idea* right, but got the execution of it *wrong.* --sue, catching up on a week's worth of old emails.... Cynthia Virtue wrote: > I don't think I've ever seen someone make a hood, modernly, that is the > head/hood part joined to a circle -- they've all been cut in one flow > from the top of the head to the bottom of the "skirts" whether they were > long or short skirts. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 11:53:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IFrKRM012367 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:53:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IFpXd5014199 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:51:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IFpU4g005759; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:51:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41504.mail.yahoo.com (web41504.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.87]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6IFpT4g005716 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:51:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celtic_dragonrider@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040718155123.2998.qmail@web41504.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.82.52.78] by web41504.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:51:23 EDT Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:51:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Janet Renzetti Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO THe dress is gorgeous. I love it. I could use one of those. Good luck on your next project and enjoy your coffee and cake. Janet Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Ok, so here is the finished dress. http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia Bjarne, who now earns a trip to Tivoli this afternoon for a coffe and cake. Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 13:05:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IH53RM012632 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:05:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IH3Fd5018833 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:03:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IH3A4g043223; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:03:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IH364g043145 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:03:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1d9.264ef0a9 (4362) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:02:56 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <1d9.264ef0a9.2e2c0740@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:02:56 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for something completely different ... Medieval cloth dyes To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/17/2004 1:26:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: Say, a bright yellow flower overflows the fields of a county in Southern Ireland from May to August of every year, so you can find a lot of yellow cloth and dyes in that region. Ahh, but very few bright yellow flowers produce bright yellow dyes. Think how ubiquitous green is in nature, but there were no really good clear green dyes known in Europe (lokao, or Chinese green, came to Europe rather late and is, I believe, a bit on the blue side.) The only way to get a good green was dyeing with yellow, then with blue (or vice versa). Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 13:05:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IH5SRM012636 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:05:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IH4Qd5018907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:04:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IH4P4g043918; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:04:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IH4L4g043848 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:04:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.19b.27275e60 (4362) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:04:14 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <19b.27275e60.2e2c078e@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:04:14 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/17/2004 2:12:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net writes: This type of necklace is that what is meant by the term "parure"? A "parure" is a set of jewelry--usually necklace, bracelet(s), earrings, perhaps a comb or tiara and belt buckle. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 13:23:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IHNCRM012717 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:23:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IHKpd5019771 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:20:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IHKi4g051880; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:20:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51301.mail.yahoo.com (web51301.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.167]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6IHKe4g051814 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:20:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040718172035.5850.qmail@web51301.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.237.35.62] by web51301.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 10:20:35 PDT Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 10:20:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Natural dyes fading X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --- Marc Carlson wrote: > My assumption is that natural dyes > eventually fade, between > washing and the sun. But that's "eventually" > compared to modern chemical > dyes which generally don't fade much or at all. > > Marc a) Hello, 'natural' dyes are chemicals, too. Synthetic is the word you want, although plenty of synthetic dyes fade readily, too--mauve, the first coal tar dye, fades to sort of pinkish dirty grey very fast indeed. b) indigo tends not to fade. The more it oxidizes, the more blue it gets. ok, I have a pair of blue jeans on at this moment that aren't as dark as they used to be, but that is because the blue thread of the demin is only dyed on the outside (like this: o) & can be worn away by mechanical abrasion. Ann in CT __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 13:29:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IHTnRM012739 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:29:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IHRhd5020069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:27:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IHRf4g055528; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:27:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IHRd4g055449 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:27:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004071817273401200fl34ie>; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:27:34 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:26:29 -0400 From: Lauren Walker To: h-costume Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Back to the Mughal robe X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello, again, I am thinking more about how to pattern my version of the Mughal robe here: http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20030411/high/1300-003.jpg Having looked at other sources and helps that you have recommended, I have a couple more questions. The Mongol Coat pattern Sheridan recommended: http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/kaftan2.html in particular gives me a lot to work with. But I just have to ask a couple of stupid construction questions. 1) So, rather than sewing shoulder seams to accomodate having the fronts of the robe wide enough to overlap while leaving the back narrow to fit, the front and back are cut as one, and the overlaps are added? That is what it looks like, both in my V&A photo and in the Mongol Coat diagram. But I am being insecure and asking again! 2) Can anybody see what is going on between the two sets of ties in the V&A picture? Unlike most of the paintings people have sent me to, these ties appear to be on the same horizontal line, rather than on a vertical line, and something green is happening between the two sets. I just can't figure it out. This much more ornate one from the Met http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/intx/hob_29.135.htm seems to have the decorative "collar" band widen out between the ties, and some kind of ribbony action at the top of the ties. Could that be what's going on in the V&A version? When I try to blow it up I lose resolution. Thanks for any advice, conjectures, certainties, etc. Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 14:11:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IIB4RM012924 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:11:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6II9Gd5022328 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:09:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6II9C4g076716; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:09:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.228]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6II9A4g076692 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:09:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.21.252.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.21.252] helo=HELENPINTO) by mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BmG61-0008QZ-DJ for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:09:10 -0700 Message-ID: <013301c46cf2$512744f0$53399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1090148363.40fa580b9ac0c@webmail.netspace.net.au> Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for another thing completely different (Broadway) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:09:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef4ed4b0d4e655748a67f8177f01204ada350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.21.252 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > A stage musical based upon Monty Python and the Holy Grail is on the hunt for > financing, I have heard. > > The proposed cast will include Hank Azaria and a few other names that skim out > of my Sunday night computing brain, > > -C. That would be Tim Curry and David Hyde Pierce. Hank Azaria is set as Sir Lancelot, Tim Curry as King Arthur, and David Hyde Pierce as Sir Robin. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 14:18:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IIInRM012942 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:18:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIHxd5022811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:17:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIHw4g081137; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:17:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.228]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIHs4g081106 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:17:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.21.252.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.21.252] helo=HELENPINTO) by mynah.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BmGES-0006Ld-VX for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 11:17:53 -0700 Message-ID: <018201c46cf3$893d3880$53399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:17:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef442cb665b7de5d730ac540e16a503883350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.21.252 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne- Words fail. It's incredible. Is that the bride? The color really suits her. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 14:54:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IIsCRM013117 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:54:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIobd5024541 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:50:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIoZ4g098602; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:50:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIoW4g098578 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:50:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040718185030.BBIE1551.out004.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:50:30 -0500 Message-ID: <40FAC680.4040901@verizon.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:50:40 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Back to the Mughal robe References: <200407181800.i6II0e4h072357@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407181800.i6II0e4h072357@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:50:30 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ties: What I'm seeing, on both robes, is that there are purely /ornamental/ 'ties', never meant to actually be tied together, made of the same elaborately patterned stuff as the trimming. These hang down attractively. Then, underneath or near these, are /working/ ties made of some sort of plain tape in a color that doesn't attract attention against the fancier ornamental ties. The placement of the ties probably had as much to with fitting to the original wearer(s) as with fashion. body: I think it's cut as one piece over the head/shoulders and pieced at the front. There are wrap front garments diagrammed in Tilke's works that are made in this way: http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/etext/tilke/ main start page of an e-text of one of his books http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/etext/tilke/plate/103.jpg http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/etext/tilke/plate/104.jpg http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/etext/tilke/plate/094.jpg Skirts: http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20030411/high/1300-003.jpg These are definitely gored at the sides and probably straight across the front, judging from the pattern's direction in the skirts. Wish we could see the back. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/intx/hob_29.135.htm In the other robe, though, I think they may not be gored at all. the pattern doesn't move the same way, and the skirts look to me like they are gathered from a pure rectangle. M. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 14:59:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IIxQRM013132 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:59:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIwXd5024869 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:58:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIwV4g003213; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:58:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIwT4g003152 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:58:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f99.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.153]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FE2E262876 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:58:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000f01c46cf9$43e341c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003001c46ccb$0a4c4cf0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:58:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Saragrace. We baught a green velvet ribbon for the lacing, but i would not use it for the trying on. The green velvet ribbon matches some of the embroidered leaves on the fabric. Her wedding is next saturday, i cant go to the church and watch because it is my working weekend, but Xenia promised me an official foto. I had a big lovely grasberry pie to my coffe with loads of whipped cream :-) Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 3:27 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress > Very, Very Pretty! What wonderful colors for her complextion too. Did she > go with the grey lacing or the the beige? I hope you get pictures of the > ceremony with everyone's mouth hanging open! > > Have a bite of cake for me! > > Sg > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 15:02:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IJ2fRM013140 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:02:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IJ01d5024938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:00:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IJ004g004114; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:00:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IIxp4g003997 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:59:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f99.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.153]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B43026287F for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:59:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001901c46cf9$705bafd0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <018201c46cf3$893d3880$53399b04@HELENPINTO> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:59:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Yes it is Xenia. Her wedding is next saturday. She promised me an official photo. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress > Bjarne- > Words fail. It's incredible. Is that the bride? The color really suits > her. > -Helen/Aidan > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 17:39:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ILd0RM013845 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:39:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ILZpd5003787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:35:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ILZh4g085236; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:35:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ILZf4g085193 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:35:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.94] (pm7-094.eos.net [205.133.149.94]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ILZaEM028080 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:35:37 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:33:16 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407181800.i6II0e4h072357@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Xenia's wedding dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne: WOW!!!!!!! And the bride looks so pretty in it, too! I hope she is just as happy with it as she should be! Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 17:59:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ILx2RM013988 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:59:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ILtud5004829 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:55:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ILtr4g095068; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:55:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from lucky.phpwebhosting.com (lucky.phpwebhosting.com [66.132.128.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6FK9k4g005098 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:09:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Info@roguestailor.com) Received: (qmail 16055 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2004 20:09:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO preferre406gqb) (141.150.253.200) by lucky.phpwebhosting.com with SMTP; 15 Jul 2004 20:09:32 -0000 Message-ID: <005101c46aa7$6b33dc20$c16dfea9@preferre406gqb> From: "Marian Brock-Andersen" To: Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:07:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:55:52 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Website Updates X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6ILx2RM013988 Status: RO I hope you all are having a fantastic summer! This e-mail is to let you all know that we are in the process of making many changes to the web site. Though its not done yet we encourage you to take a look. We would also like to remind you that Dragoncon is coming soon and we hope to see you stop by the table. If you do not wish to receive e-mails from Rogues Tailor in the future, please replied with Remove as subject line. Thank You. Marian Brock-Andersen www.roguestailor.com PO BOX 404 Clayton NJ 08312 856-981-1169 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 19:08:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6IN8IRM014193 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:08:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IN4md5009311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:04:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IN4g4g029205; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:04:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6IN4d4g029175 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:04:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.44.7]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040718230438.FXXF3910.out005.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:04:38 -0500 Message-ID: <001b01c46d1b$99841010$072c2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:04:36 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.33.44.7] at Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:04:38 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Stunning, mmmm coffee and cake! B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 6:05 AM Subject: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress > Ok, so here is the finished dress. > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Bjarne, who now earns a trip to Tivoli this afternoon for a coffe and cake. > > > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 19:50:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6INodRM014363 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:50:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6INlbd5012121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:47:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6INlS4g049637; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:47:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6INlP4g049584 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:47:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6J0JM5c040610 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:19:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6J0JLND040609 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:19:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407190019.i6J0JLND040609@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > um concept here. The Irish "Potato famine" was labeled such for a reason. > They also grew them in the highlands I believe. This is not a "New world" > veggie. Nor is it a veggie per se, Potatoes are a starch. Wrong or not it > is what they used maybe props didn't know a turnip and a potato are 2 > different root foods. botanist input here. Yes the Irish Potato is a vegetable. Leaves, stems and roots are all vegetables. If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. The Irish Potato is indeed a new world vegetable -- it's native to the Andes MOuntains. The Irish Popato famine was in the 1840s. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 19:52:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6INqPRM014373 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:52:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6INoCd5012250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:50:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6INoB4g050879; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:50:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m19.mx.aol.com (imo-m19.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6INo74g050809 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:50:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.96.feaed20 (18251) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:49:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <96.feaed20.2e2c66a6@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:49:58 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/18/04 6:48:09 PM Central Daylight Time, sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. Cool! -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 19:58:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6INwERM014402 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:58:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6INvTd5012624 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:57:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6INvR4g054462; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:57:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6INvP4g054446 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 17:57:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6J0TP5c040737 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:29:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6J0TPpV040736 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:29:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407190029.i6J0TPpV040736@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. In-Reply-To: <154.3a0e99a0.2e2a8094@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > In a message dated 7/17/2004 12:33:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, > glendar@compassnet.com.au writes: > > > The Irish potato famine was AFTER they were imported from the new world > > Interestingly....I read the blight that destroyed the potato and caused the > famine was so effective and wide-ranging because the potatoes in Ireland had a > very limited genetic diversity [making them vulnerable] because they were all > decedents from a few potatoes brought in during the 1600s. This is indeed true. That's one of the worries of modern-day plant genetecists. So many of our crops world-wide have become monocultures (single strain "varieties,") that any good disease or blight (or other hazardous occurrence) could wreak major havoc on today's food crop. A single disease could take out *all* North American wheat for instance. Jerusha, the botanist _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 20:39:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J0dHRM014669 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:39:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J0bFd5014811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:37:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J0b74g073245; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:37:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J0b04g073176 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:37:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6J1915c041234 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:09:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6J1907H041233 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:09:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407190109.i6J1907H041233@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress In-Reply-To: <20040718134129.6AA5315CC3@mail03.powweb.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Absolutely stunning!!!!! > -Megan I'll second that stunning and raise you a couple of drools! Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 20:57:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J0v5RM014748 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:57:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J0t3d5015779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:55:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J0t24g082102; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:55:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J0sv4g082068 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:54:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6J1Qv5c041479 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:26:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6J1QvSm041478 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:26:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407190126.i6J1QvSm041478@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Robin Hood et al. In-Reply-To: <200407190019.i6J0JLND040609@sabre.goldsword.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > um concept here. The Irish "Potato famine" was labeled such for a reason. > > They also grew them in the highlands I believe. This is not a "New world" > > veggie. Nor is it a veggie per se, Potatoes are a starch. Wrong or not it > > is what they used maybe props didn't know a turnip and a potato are 2 > > different root foods. > > botanist input here. Yes the Irish Potato is a vegetable. Leaves, stems > and roots are all vegetables. If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. > > The Irish Potato is indeed a new world vegetable -- it's native to the > Andes MOuntains. The Irish Popato famine was in the 1840s. And of course, I can't spell either. That should be poTato. Of course, if you look at some plant names, you'll realize that botanists as a group can't spell. Mnium (silent M) is a moss, Tmisepteris (silent T), Pteridophyte (silent P) -- class name for ferns ..... Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 20:59:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J0x8RM014760 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:59:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J0ujd5015902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:56:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J0ui4g082961; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:56:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J0ue4g082934 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:56:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6J1Se5c041488 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:28:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6J1Se3M041487 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:28:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407190128.i6J1Se3M041487@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <96.feaed20.2e2c66a6@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > In a message dated 7/18/04 6:48:09 PM Central Daylight Time, > sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. > > Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. Cool! Yep. It's that simple. A fruit is a mature (aka ripe) ovary and any associated structures like a receptacle. In apples, for instance, the ovary proper is inside that tough membrane in the center right around the seeds -- the part that most people eat isn't part of the ovary proper -- but it's still a part of the fruit. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 21:52:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J1qWRM014960 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:52:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J1o9d5019355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:50:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J1o54g009510; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:50:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51407.mail.yahoo.com (web51407.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.186]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6J1o34g009412 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:50:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ivycircle@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040719014957.45908.qmail@web51407.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.240.39.104] by web51407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:49:57 PDT Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:49:57 -0700 (PDT) From: me To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407181800.i6II0e4i072357@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Kudos Bjarne X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne, What a wonderful gown! I always immensely enjoy your clothing. I know the bride will treasure her gown for many years to come. Now back to lurking, Angelique --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 22:03:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J23aRM015049 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:03:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J235d5020170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:03:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J2334g016210; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:03:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com (imo-m15.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.205]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J2304g016147 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:03:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.126.45df9e9f (17526) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:02:51 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <126.45df9e9f.2e2c85ca@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:02:50 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/18/2004 8:57:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. > > > >Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. > Cool! > > Yep. It's that simple. I remember that from 7th grade science class. So naturally a tomato, squash or cucumber is technically a fruit. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 22:54:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J2sMRM015329 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:54:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J2q3d5023188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:52:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J2pw4g040186; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:51:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f42.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.92]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J2pu4g040124 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:51:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:51:50 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.85 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:51:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.85] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:51:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2004 02:51:50.0740 (UTC) FILETIME=[573E1140:01C46D3B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Ann Catelli >a) Hello, 'natural' dyes are chemicals, too. >Synthetic is the word you want, although plenty of >synthetic dyes fade readily, too--mauve, the first >coal tar dye, fades to sort of pinkish dirty grey very >fast indeed. While I may be mistaken, I am under the impression that "chemical dyes" is an acceptable synonym for "synthetic dyes", at least in the industry. >b) indigo tends not to fade. The more it oxidizes, >the more blue it gets. >ok, I have a pair of blue jeans on at this moment that >aren't as dark as they used to be, but that is because >the blue thread of the demin is only dyed on the >outside (like this: o) & can be worn away by >mechanical abrasion. Again, I may be mistaken, but my impression that modern indigo dyes are not from the plant, but are, in fact, man-made. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to ‘Dig Yourself Out of Debt’ from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:01:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J310RM015366 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:01:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J2wnd5023644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:58:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J2wc4g043621; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:58:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (IDENT:zBPDDrwcDz1bErbBPi/Vz+0gdFQdz2kR@isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J2wX4g043569 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:58:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.166] (p06.3c04.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.166]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6J2w3P26955 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:58:03 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) In-Reply-To: <96.feaed20.2e2c66a6@aol.com> References: <96.feaed20.2e2c66a6@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:59:22 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO So cucumbers and peppers are really fruits? On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:49 PM, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/18/04 6:48:09 PM Central Daylight Time, > sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. > > Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. > Cool! > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:05:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J35mRM015418 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:05:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J33Ud5023923 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:03:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J33U4g046115; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:03:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (IDENT:cnT1ff8LEM22T9L4oMTfjdWRwZFhO4zy@isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J33T4g046103 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:03:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from mail.ntw.net (IDENT:Sd6vv4+aGEIKhCtPBM9/lgQQkHEh50Qi@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i6J330P27218 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:03:00 -0600 Received: from 206.124.3.166 (SquirrelMail authenticated user sylvia) by mail.ntw.net with HTTP; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:03:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <52294.206.124.3.166.1090206180.squirrel@mail.ntw.net> In-Reply-To: <126.45df9e9f.2e2c85ca@aol.com> References: <126.45df9e9f.2e2c85ca@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:03:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit From: sylvia@ntw.net To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Guess I ought to read all the posts before replying to a message. > In a message dated 7/18/2004 8:57:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, > sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > >> If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. >> > >> >Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. >> Cool! >> >> Yep. It's that simple. > > I remember that from 7th grade science class. So naturally a tomato, > squash > or cucumber is technically a fruit. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:06:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J36sRM015424 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:06:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J34cd5024002 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:04:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J34b4g046671; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:04:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.202]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6J34X4g046661 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:04:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from athurman@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 73so572811rne for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.73.74 with SMTP id v74mr190297rna; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d21ac1904071820042f5d2d30@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:04:30 -0400 From: "A. Thurman" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Just a question - bananas don't have seeds, yet they are unquestionably fruits, right? The way I undertand it is that most food bananas are a strain that reproduce from cuttings rather than seeds, though this is from human selection and is not natural. Also another instance of a limited gene pool, and luckily there has been no banana blight (yet?) Allison T. Message: 16 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:02:50 EDT From: AlbertCat@aol.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit To: h-costume@indra.com Message-ID: <126.45df9e9f.2e2c85ca@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 7/18/2004 8:57:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. > > > >Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. > Cool! > > Yep. It's that simple. I remember that from 7th grade science class. So naturally a tomato, squash or cucumber is technically a fruit. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:10:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J3ALRM015444 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:10:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J38Ad5024208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:08:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3884g048549; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:08:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3864h048532 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:08:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@minx.thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6J3E9TF025830 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:14:09 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by minx.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.10/Submit) id i6J3E9K8025829 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:14:09 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:14:08 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040718155123.2998.qmail@web41504.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040718155123.2998.qmail@web41504.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407182314.09039.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Enjoy your coffee and cake, Bjarne; you deserve it. The gown is stunning. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:12:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J3CjRM015461 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:12:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3AAd5024283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:10:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3AA4g049461; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:10:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3A84g049442 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:10:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kbaird@cableone.net) Received: from kimathlon (unverified [24.119.35.202]) by smail2.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 9596592 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:56:07 -0700 From: "kim baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:10:08 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c46d3d$e5c48230$6601a8c0@kimathlon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Indigo is a plant (actually, several varieties of plant) that has been used for thousands of years to dye shades of blue. Modern dyers use the synthetic active chemical instead of the plant version. That is not in the same class as the coal tar (aniline) dyes. Kim -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Marc Carlson Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:52 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading >From: Ann Catelli >a) Hello, 'natural' dyes are chemicals, too. >Synthetic is the word you want, although plenty of >synthetic dyes fade readily, too--mauve, the first >coal tar dye, fades to sort of pinkish dirty grey very >fast indeed. While I may be mistaken, I am under the impression that "chemical dyes" is an acceptable synonym for "synthetic dyes", at least in the industry. >b) indigo tends not to fade. The more it oxidizes, >the more blue it gets. >ok, I have a pair of blue jeans on at this moment that >aren't as dark as they used to be, but that is because >the blue thread of the demin is only dyed on the >outside (like this: o) & can be worn away by >mechanical abrasion. Again, I may be mistaken, but my impression that modern indigo dyes are not from the plant, but are, in fact, man-made. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to 'Dig Yourself Out of Debt' from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:14:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J3EVRM015468 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:14:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3ATd5024308 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:10:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3AS4g049630; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:10:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav6.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3AP4g049562 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:10:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:05:20 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.8 by bay1-dav6.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 03:05:19 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.8] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407190128.i6J1Se3M041487@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:05:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2004 03:05:20.0031 (UTC) FILETIME=[399E12F0:01C46D3D] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO *sigh* I'm going to hunt you down. I swear. eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Farmer" To: Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit > > In a message dated 7/18/04 6:48:09 PM Central Daylight Time, > > sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > > If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. > > > > Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. Cool! > > Yep. It's that simple. A fruit is a mature (aka ripe) ovary and any > associated structures like a receptacle. In apples, for instance, > the ovary proper is inside that tough membrane in the center right > around the seeds -- the part that most people eat isn't part of the > ovary proper -- but it's still a part of the fruit. > > Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:17:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J3HORM015491 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:17:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3GJd5024599 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:16:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3GG4g052408; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:16:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.197]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6J3GD4g052383 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:16:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from athurman@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 73so573091rne for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.163.30 with SMTP id l30mr47743rne; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d21ac1904071820166689c234@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:16:12 -0400 From: "A. Thurman" To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] favorite movie costume? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Coming late to this thread, but here goes anyway: I have too many to count! There are so many I'd like to make, from Kate Beckinsale's vampire slayer outfit in "Van Helsing" to almost anything out of "Elizabeth R"... But I thought I'd mention the costumes from David Lynch's "Dune" because no one else has yet (or, at least, not in this thread). The movie doesn't stick to the books at all, but DAMN if it doesn't look good! I've wanted my own stillsuit for years, even if I do die of heat in it! Allison T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:19:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J3JTRM015500 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:19:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3Ijd5024755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:18:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3Ih4g053531; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:18:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3If4g053503 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:18:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D7211B90 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040718201405.022f8990@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:19:04 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 09:51 PM 7/18/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Again, I may be mistaken, but my impression that modern indigo dyes are >not from the plant, but are, in fact, man-made. > >Marc That's an interesting question, and I would love to know what the answer would be. I have studied a little of John Marshall's indigo dyeing techniques, and from his own recommendation purchased some of the "freeze dried" indigo that is now available. It is easier to work with than stewing indigo in a large tub of some sort, but it is natural plant indigo from India, and is processed into this freeze dried fashion. I have yet to use it, as the local dyeing group hasn't made a date for our planned group adventure. I may just go ahead after Costume College, once my personal life has settled down a bit. But like I mentioned before, I wonder what type of indigo is used for ready to wear or other types of fibers by corporations. Anyone have a clue they care to share with us clueless ones? Kimiko Kimiko Small Owner ~ DreamTime Studios http://www.dreamtime-studios.com Fresno, CA, USA "When there is fear, there is no creativity" ~ C. Lowell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:44:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J3iDRM015656 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:44:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3gOd5026502 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:42:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3gH4g065350; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:42:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3gF4g065342 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:42:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-41-184.jps.net ([209.165.41.184] helo=KALC) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BmP2c-0006wV-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:42:15 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:42:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <7d21ac1904071820042f5d2d30@mail.gmail.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bananas indeed do have seeds, some are just very small and they come in a variety of types....see http://www.bananagarden.com and take your pick!!! Not all are as tasty as another though! Under sub tropical conditions they grow like weeds, new stalks growing off the bases of old ones. Lisa Sinervo -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of A. Thurman Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 8:05 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit Just a question - bananas don't have seeds, yet they are unquestionably fruits, right? The way I undertand it is that most food bananas are a strain that reproduce from cuttings rather than seeds, though this is from human selection and is not natural. Also another instance of a limited gene pool, and luckily there has been no banana blight (yet?) Allison T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 18 23:46:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6J3kBRM015659 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:46:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3jBd5026632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:45:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3jA4g066815; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:45:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6J3j64h066777 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 18 Jul 2004 21:45:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.169]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i6J3o8Up027779 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:50:09 +1000 Message-ID: <07df01c46d42$360b5d00$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <7d21ac1904071820042f5d2d30@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:38:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO They do have very small, but infertile, seeds. Apparently there are many varieties of banana, but most are inedible. Glenda. ----- Original Message ----- > Just a question - bananas don't have seeds, yet they are > unquestionably fruits, right? The way I undertand it is that most food > bananas are a strain that reproduce from cuttings rather than seeds, > though this is from human selection and is not natural. Also another > instance of a limited gene pool, and luckily there has been no banana > blight (yet?) > > Allison T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 06:18:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JAIfRM018935 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:18:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JAGcd5016379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:16:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JAGW4g060453; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:16:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net (smtp1.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JAGR4h060346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:16:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D54D833A for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:15:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 18925-03 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (unknown [64.78.97.244]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DD92D830F for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <01d001c46d79$6b0f1f00$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:16:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 11:42 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit > Bananas indeed do have seeds, some are just very small and they come in a > variety of types....see http://www.bananagarden.com and take your pick!!! > Lisa Sinervo How very cool! I may have to order some and grow my own bananas as protection against the dreadful possibility of a banana blight...oh, the horror... Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 06:32:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JAWSRM018964 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:32:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JAVgd5016910 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:31:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JAVe4g067333; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:31:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JAVb4g067275 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:31:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:30:31 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF74@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Thread-Index: AcRrXyyTpzCX1CWKRvi2vGncYnfp4gCG8QrQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > How can one forget Totally Modern Millie, I almost wet myself > when she burst out of her corset, because I too, cannot get > my beads to hang straight :) That's in the opening credits sequence of Thoroughly Modern Millie (oneof my favourite films). Strange how that's one of the most commonly remembered bits of the film. I love the dancing in the lift scenes myself. Not sure I ever liked it for the costumes specifically (though Mary Tyler Moore had some lovely outfits in that film) Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 06:37:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JAbkRM018972 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:37:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JAaod5017252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:36:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JAam4g069829; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:36:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m19.mx.aol.com (imo-m19.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JAal4g069760 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:36:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.158.3a11484d (16930) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:36:38 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <158.3a11484d.2e2cfe36@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:36:38 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/18/2004 11:19:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, kimiko@kimiko1.com writes: I wonder what type of indigo is used for ready to wear or other types of fibers by corporations. Anyone have a clue they care to share with us clueless ones? Indigo was successfully synthesized in the 1890s--that is, this process was cheap enough to make it viable. So I suspect that most indigo used commericially today is synthetically made. It is, though, chemically identical to indigo from plants. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 07:06:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JB6ORM019070 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:06:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JB3Fd5018540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:03:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JB3B4g082700; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:03:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JB2p4g082361 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:02:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from triade@kabelfoon.nl) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0997.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.230]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBFDD3192AE for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:02:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40FBAA56.40305@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:02:46 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress References: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; bulk Body=1 Fuz1=3445 Fuz2=many X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am very happy for you that you managed to change the front piece. The dress is absolutely stunning!!!!!!! And she makes the dress look even more beautiful. :-) ;-) Greetings, Deredere Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: >Ok, so here is the finished dress. >http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia >Bjarne, who now earns a trip to Tivoli this afternoon for a coffe and cake. > > > > > > > >Leif og Bjarne Drews >www.my-drewscostumes.dk > >http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 07:26:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JBQCRM019129 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:26:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JBOQd5020799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:24:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JBON4g093880; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:24:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JBOL4g093853 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 05:24:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:15:35 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF75@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: RE: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT Thread-Index: AcRsX77bwmr2HGIESU2gzTWgYZUxGQBIckmw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > -----Original Message----- > > One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle > > Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. > ~~~~~~~~~ > Who in their right mind would want to trim a bear? :) Several people on this list - particularly those involved in the travelling Teddy project.... Brocades and velvets and trims, Oh my! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 08:38:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JCccRM019420 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:38:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JCbbd5024829 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:37:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JCbX4g030139; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:37:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JCbW4g030115 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:37:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9720274A9 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:37:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p075.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.77]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A10A0D4B6 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:37:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:37:43 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF75@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Ursine was: Numenorean beards - OT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- > -----Original Message----- > > One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle > > Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. > ~~~~~~~~~ > Who in their right mind would want to trim a bear? :) Several people on this list - particularly those involved in the travelling Teddy project.... Brocades and velvets and trims, Oh my! Teddy ~~~~~~~ I am not going to go there, I am oh so not going to go there. to late. Now I have dancing bears with poodle cuts wearing teddies before my minds eye. Such a grizzly sight. I should not panda'to this thread. But I bearly can resist. Must claw my way back to sanity. But did I Koalafy as being sane before the prancing teddied bears? De They say going crazy is a short trip, I must be taking the scenic route. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:04:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JD4hRM019575 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:04:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JD3dd5026306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:03:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JD3a4g044145; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:03:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JD3W4g044111 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:03:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cahuff@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lci2j.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.72.83] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BmXnn-0003UU-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:03:31 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200407190252.i6J2qW4i040478@net.indra.com> References: <200407190252.i6J2qW4i040478@net.indra.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:03:22 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: fastusminimus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Veggie vs fruit, now monoculture X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 8:52 PM -0600 7/18/04, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: >This is indeed true. That's one of the worries of modern-day plant >genetecists. So many of our crops world-wide have become monocultures >(single strain "varieties,") that any good disease or blight (or other >hazardous occurrence) could wreak major havoc on today's food crop. > >A single disease could take out *all* North American wheat for instance. Um actually that is why the USDA maintains a library of seeds collected from all over the world of cereal grains (many strains from areas such as Iraq and Iran....some collected in the 60-70's) They also maintain a potato and cotton 'library' (see there IS a textile connection!) and other food/textile plant 'libraries'. The seeds/ tubers are grown out on a regular basis and the trees are maintained in an 'orchard' setting... The big plant companies get samples and use them in their breeding programs to develop new strains and varieties and the USDA also does some development of 'better' varieties. There is a movement away from a total monoculture--the dangers of which was proven with the corn 'blight' several decades ago. Ta Carol, who had family out collecting samples in some very interesting places! And you think maintaining a library of books is a hassle!!!! -- Creative Clutter is Better Than Idle Neatness! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:20:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JDKDRM019640 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:20:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDJad5027060 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:19:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDJV4g053260; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:19:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDJR4g053191 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:19:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a261.in-tch.com [66.62.107.61]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6JDJON04476 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:19:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FBCB4C.5060003@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:23:24 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO You can actually purchase both, at least for hobby-scale dyeing. I've got some, as we can't grow woad here, legally (other than Japanese indigo). I have friends who've also been able to purchase finished cloth done in natural indigo. --sue Marc Carlson wrote: > Again, I may be mistaken, but my impression that modern indigo dyes are > not from the plant, but are, in fact, man-made. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:31:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JDViRM019679 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:31:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDUkd5027803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:30:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDUj4g060266; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:30:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com (imo-m15.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.205]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDUf4g060174 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:30:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1a5.25d01019 (4468) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:30:32 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1a5.25d01019.2e2d26f7@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:30:31 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/18/2004 11:04:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, athurman@gmail.com writes: > bananas don't have seeds They do....but like strawberries, you don't notice them. Right? [again, trying to remember things from the 7th grade] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:36:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JDaGRM019715 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:36:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDXsd5028085 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:33:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDXs4g062400; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:33:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m27.mx.aol.com (imo-m27.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDXp4g062306 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:33:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1d1.2628c0c9 (4468) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:33:41 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1d1.2628c0c9.2e2d27b5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:33:41 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] favorite movie costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/18/2004 11:16:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, athurman@gmail.com writes: > but DAMN if it doesn't look > good! I've wanted my own stillsuit for years, even if I do die of heat > in it! > I mention "Dune" all the time. Great costumes and fantastic sets. A good look, excellent art direction throughout. Wish they hadn't chopped it down to a single film [was supposed to be two] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:40:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JDeWRM019781 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:40:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDbsd5028425 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:37:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDbp4g065294; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:37:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (imo-m21.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDbn4g065219 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:37:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1e1.259d37c3 (4468) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:37:35 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1e1.259d37c3.2e2d289f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:37:35 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/19/2004 6:32:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, Teddy@mdx.ac.uk writes: > re Thoroughly Modern Millie: (though Mary Tyler Moore had some lovely > outfits in that film) > And don't forget Bea Lillie's [Mrs. Meers] outfits. [squeek.....squeek....squeek....] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:43:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JDh4RM019796 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:43:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDdQd5028577 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:39:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDdQ4g066312; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:39:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDd04g066012 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:39:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a261.in-tch.com [66.62.107.61]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6JDd0N13700 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:39:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FBCFE4.6000807@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:43:00 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF75@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF75@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Orange and green dingle-ball fringe, too? --sue Teddy wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >> >>>One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle >>>Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. >> >>~~~~~~~~~ >>Who in their right mind would want to trim a bear? :) > > > Several people on this list - particularly those involved in the > travelling Teddy project.... > > Brocades and velvets and trims, Oh my! > > Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:50:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JDoSRM019823 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:50:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDmAd5029267 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:48:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDm84g071824; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:48:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41511.mail.yahoo.com (web41511.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.94]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6JDm54g071726 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:48:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celtic_dragonrider@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040719134759.67907.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.82.52.78] by web41511.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:47:59 EDT Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:47:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Janet Renzetti Subject: Re: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <40FBCFE4.6000807@in-tch.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO With a pink bow tied on the top of their heads. Janet Sue Clemenger wrote: Orange and green dingle-ball fringe, too? --sue Teddy wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >> >>>One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle >>>Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. >> >>~~~~~~~~~ >>Who in their right mind would want to trim a bear? :) > > > Several people on this list - particularly those involved in the > travelling Teddy project.... > > Brocades and velvets and trims, Oh my! > > Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 09:58:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JDwuRM019860 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:58:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDtgd5029799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:55:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDte4g076674; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:55:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cadence.thinkers.org (cadence.thinkers.org [64.235.106.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JDtc4g076633 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 07:55:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from arakune@cadence.thinkers.org) Received: (from arakune@localhost) by cadence.thinkers.org (8.9.3/linuxconf) id JAA24578 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:55:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:55:34 -0400 From: Steph Smith To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit Message-ID: <20040719135534.GM10178@cadence.thinkers.org> References: <1a5.25d01019.2e2d26f7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1a5.25d01019.2e2d26f7@aol.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > bananas don't have seeds > They do....but like strawberries, you don't notice them. > Right? [again, trying to remember things from the 7th grade] Sort of. Banana's still have what used to be seeds in them. Tiny, pale, of the same consistency of banana flesh, and useless. When viable, they are large, hard, and inedible. Since this made bananas difficult to eat, bananas were modified out of their ability to produce real, mature seeds, and they are now reproduced through cloning. So it depends on your definition of 'seed', and your definition of 'having' ;) Steph -- In Xanadu did Kubla Khan A stately pleasure dome decree: Where Alph, the sacred river, ran Through caverns measureless to man Down to a sunless sea. So twice five miles of fertile ground With walls and towers were girdled round: And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills, Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree; And here were forest ancient as the hills, Enfolding sunny spots of greenery. -- S.T. Coleridge, "Kubla Kahn" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 10:12:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JECwRM019976 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:12:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JEBxd5001254 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:11:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JEBw4g088028; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:11:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m20.mx.aol.com (imo-m20.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JEBq4g087929 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:11:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.19b.272f5e27 (18707) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:11:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <19b.272f5e27.2e2d309f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:11:43 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/19/04 8:57:15 AM Central Daylight Time, stephanie@thinkers.org writes: Tiny, pale, of the same consistency of banana flesh, and useless. Okay, I'm with the person who said that she was going to hunt you people down. All this talk about banana flesh and apple ovaries is seriously affecting my interest in EVER eating another piece of fruit! -Tiffany, who prefers not to contemplate too closely the origins of her favorite foods. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 10:23:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JENWRM020005 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:23:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JELJd5001985 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:21:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JELH4g094135; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:21:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from quartz.stoneage.mglarc.com ([212.17.54.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6JEL94h093948 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:21:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lstrid@mglarc.com) Received: from oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com ([10.10.1.22]) by quartz.stoneage.mglarc.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.0.59) with SMTP id M2004071915225524479 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:22:55 +0100 Received: by oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <3YQCJZ47>; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:18:43 +0100 Message-ID: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A64AD@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> From: Lena Strid To: "'h-costume@mail.indra.com'" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:18:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6JEL94h093948 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Medieval woollen underwear? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Apart from the fragmentary possible drawers at Hull friary, are there any evidence - archaeological, pictorial, documentary - for woollen underwear during the Middle Ages? I've heard - from the ubiquitous 'someone' - that woollen underwear was used by the very poor, who couldn't afford linen, and also that it was used as a mortification clothing. As a rule, I seldom trust comments by 'someone' unless they can be verified. The money aspect may be wrong, as figures from the Netherlands show that linen was cheaper than the cheapest wool. Then again, I've only got one reference, and that's for a specific time and place. Mortification clothing sounds reasonable, but I have yet to see a reference for it. /Lena ================================================= Margaret Gowen & Co. Ltd. Archaeological Consultants & Project Managers 2 Killiney View Tel: 01-2300433 Albert Road Lower Fax: 01-2300865 Glenageary e-mail: archaeology@mglarc.com Co. Dublin website: http://www.mglarc.com ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is private and confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you are not named above as an addressee it may be unlawful for you to read, copy, distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this email. If you are not the intended recipient of this email please contact our systems administrator. Thank you. NOTE Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its associated companies unless otherwise specifically stated. This email message has passed through a "Symantec Mail Security for SMTP" server and has been checked for both virus and spam content. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 10:34:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JEYORM020105 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:34:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JEWId5002843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:32:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JEWE4g001838; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:32:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JEWC4g001809 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:32:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0314.dialsprint.net ([63.186.145.60]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BmZBa-0007jk-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:32:11 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:32:57 -0400 Subject: [h-cost] Of possible interest From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dutifully going to my Save-the-Rain-Forest site today I noticed their "eco-tip," which today is "wet-cleaning" wool, silk, and rayon rather than dry-cleaning. I haven't tried (obviously--still sitting at the $#&*^(# computer) the directions but they might be of interest, at least as an addition to the ongoing discussion of cleaning methods for various fibers: http://www.care2.com/channels/solutions/healthy/133 Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 11:29:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JFTQRM020546 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:29:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JFRTd5007956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:27:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JFQM4g042270; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:26:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JFPI4g041480 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:25:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1cd.26253b76 (3980) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:25:00 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1cd.26253b76.2e2d41cc@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:25:00 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/19/2004 10:13:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > All this talk about banana flesh and apple ovaries is seriously affecting > my interest in EVER eating another piece of fruit! > One should never think too much about what one is eating....be it plant ovaries or dead bird or fermented milk fat with fungus in it. Reminds me of a discussion on the classical music boards [we talk about everything but music] when someone said "I don't like those Georgia O'Keef paintings of flowers. They look like sex organs." [Of course a flower IS a sex organ!] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 11:34:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JFYgRM020575 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:34:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JFVtd5008672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JFVs4g047464; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:31:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JFVU4g047042 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:31:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1cd.26253b76 (3980) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:25:00 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1cd.26253b76.2e2d41cc@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:25:00 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/19/2004 10:13:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com writes: > All this talk about banana flesh and apple ovaries is seriously affecting > my interest in EVER eating another piece of fruit! > One should never think too much about what one is eating....be it plant ovaries or dead bird or fermented milk fat with fungus in it. Reminds me of a discussion on the classical music boards [we talk about everything but music] when someone said "I don't like those Georgia O'Keef paintings of flowers. They look like sex organs." [Of course a flower IS a sex organ!] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 11:35:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JFZJRM020580 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:35:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JFUWd5008396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:30:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JFUS4g046075; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:30:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net (smtp1.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JFTB4h044600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:29:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90590D8419 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 09346-03 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (unknown [64.78.97.244]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id F3827D8415 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <050c01c46da5$196494b0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:28:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:35 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) > Hey, Just because I prefer a bodice and happen to have a significant amount > of cleavage doesn't mean I'm wearing the bodice just to show off. I dress > as suits my figure. I have Chitons and I've worn them for SCA but I prefer > not to because I end up with ugly sunburns where there shouldn't be sun > touching skin and it is not a flattering shape on me. But there is a difference between wearing a bodice (and I LOVE my Elizabethans) and the TOAP look. One is correct to the period, one is not. I have seen some TOAP outfits where the woman's breasts just looked like floppy sacks hanging over the top of the bodice, adn it's just not attractive! I don't own a chiton. I like wearing historical costumes because I truly like long, full skirts, hoops, flowing sleeves...it's FUN, and just sooo GIRLY! Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 12:25:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JGPPRM020893 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:25:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGL7d5014453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:21:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGKZ4g087236; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:20:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGKV4g087174 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:20:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.45.134]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040719162025.JEUT1551.out004.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:20:25 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c46dac$4c63d4f0$862d2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF74@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:20:24 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.33.45.134] at Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:20:25 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, I too sometimes dance in elevators, just to give myself a giggle :) I think I'll have to watch that one again soon. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teddy" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? > > > How can one forget Totally Modern Millie, I almost wet myself > > when she burst out of her corset, because I too, cannot get > > my beads to hang straight :) > > That's in the opening credits sequence of Thoroughly Modern Millie > (oneof my favourite films). Strange how that's one of the most commonly > remembered bits of the film. > > I love the dancing in the lift scenes myself. Not sure I ever liked it > for the costumes specifically (though Mary Tyler Moore had some lovely > outfits in that film) > > Teddy > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 12:27:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JGRRRM020907 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:27:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGOid5014891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:24:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGOi4g090736; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:24:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGOZ4g090622 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:24:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.45.134]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040719162433.JGEG1551.out004.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:24:33 -0500 Message-ID: <002901c46dac$dfc8ae50$862d2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FBCB4C.5060003@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:24:32 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.33.45.134] at Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:24:32 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Why is it illegal to grow woad? B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Clemenger" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 6:23 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading > You can actually purchase both, at least for hobby-scale dyeing. I've > got some, as we can't grow woad here, legally (other than Japanese > indigo). I have friends who've also been able to purchase finished > cloth done in natural indigo. > --sue > > Marc Carlson wrote: > > > > Again, I may be mistaken, but my impression that modern indigo dyes are > > not from the plant, but are, in fact, man-made. > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 12:48:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JGmeRM021054 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:48:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGlWd5017655 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:47:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGlT4g009792; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:47:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGlP4h009713 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:47:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6JGj5tY013912 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:45:05 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40FBFB1B.7050509@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:47:23 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading References: <40FBCB4C.5060003@in-tch.com> <002901c46dac$dfc8ae50$862d2104@brandyscomp> In-Reply-To: <002901c46dac$dfc8ae50$862d2104@brandyscomp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Brandy Deming wrote: > Why is it illegal to grow woad? Some places. It's an "invasive plant" which means it spreads everywhere and is difficult to kill off, pushing out native species and habitats. Some folks grow it in containers, which makes it much less of a problem. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 12:50:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JGokRM021061 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:50:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGgEd5017061 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:42:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGgB4g005376; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:42:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGg64g005316 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:42:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6JHEA5c047823 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:14:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6JHEAhu047822 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:14:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > So cucumbers and peppers are really fruits? Yep. So are beans, peas, corn and wheat, etc. Jerusha > > On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:49 PM, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/18/04 6:48:09 PM Central Daylight Time, > > sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > > If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. > > > > Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. > > Cool! > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 12:50:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JGooRM021064 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:50:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGmmd5017833 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:48:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGmm4g010877; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:48:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGmZ4g010705 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:48:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6JHKd5c047874 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:20:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6JHKd7V047873 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:20:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407191720.i6JHKd7V047873@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <7d21ac1904071820042f5d2d30@mail.gmail.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Just a question - bananas don't have seeds, yet they are > unquestionably fruits, right? The way I undertand it is that most food > bananas are a strain that reproduce from cuttings rather than seeds, > though this is from human selection and is not natural. Also another > instance of a limited gene pool, and luckily there has been no banana > blight (yet?) biology lesson .... All organisms (except bacteria and viruses) have (at least) 2 sets of chromosomes. You have 2 sets, so does your dog, your cat and your crabgrass. This is called diploid. Many of our ornamental flowers and seedless fruits have been messed with genetically and they have more than 2 sets of chromosomes -- 3,4, 6, 8 or more sets. During Meiosis (which is the process that organisms undergo to produce gametes) the number of chromosomes in each cell is halved -- that's why you get half of your genetic makeup from your mother and half from your father. 3 sets of chromosomes don't pair up properly during meiosis so that typically eggs or sperm (ovules or pollen grains) can't be produced so the organism is sterile. Bananas, seedless watermelons, seedless grapes, etc are probably triploid and are hence sterile -- they won't/can't set seed. Ocasionally you'll see little black dots inside of a banana -- they're aborted seeds. If you're real interested in biology as a topic, I created a sca-bio group over on yahoo. It's a place where biologists can hang out and discuss biology or the SCA or whatever. (And you don't have to be a practicing biologist to come and play -- just interested!) Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 12:52:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JGqZRM021067 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:52:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGpDd5018164 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:51:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGpA4g012865; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:51:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f57.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGp64g012744 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:51:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:50:55 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:50:55 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:50:55 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2004 16:50:55.0843 (UTC) FILETIME=[8F432330:01C46DB0] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Question for the jewelry experts. This type of necklace is that what is >meant by the term "parure"? A parure, at least around 1800, is used to describe a set of jewelry pieces, usually necklace and earrings, and the one I've seen that belonged to Joséphine also had belt and tiara (or whatever it was she wore on her head). I wonder if they might not also have a brooch. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Premium includes powerful parental controls and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 12:52:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JGqqRM021071 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:52:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGntd5017982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:49:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGnp4g011797; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:49:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JGnm4g011748 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:49:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6JHLq5c047889 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:21:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6JHLqLt047888 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:21:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407191721.i6JHLqLt047888@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > *sigh* I'm going to hunt you down. I swear. *giggle* You just came here to get away from fruits and Veggies! The Powers of the Universe are trying to tell you something, Bice! giggling, JErusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 13:36:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JHa5RM021381 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:36:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHYkd5022772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:34:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHYj4g048377; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:34:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHYa4g048232 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:34:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from triade@kabelfoon.nl) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0997.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.230]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 743A631941C for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:34:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <40FBF7CC.30402@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:33:16 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO They are bringing out a new Queen Eliabeth Barbie. I must say this one looks a lot better than the last one. Very nice in detail. http://www.barbiecollector.com/showcase/product.asp?type=&subtype=&product_id=1003486 Mmm they have also Lord of the Rings Barbies. Galadriel and Legolas look very cool. Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 13:38:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JHc9RM021396 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:38:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHWNd5022509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:32:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHWF4g046290; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:32:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f2.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHWD4g046191 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:32:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:32:06 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:32:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:32:06 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2004 17:32:06.0485 (UTC) FILETIME=[4FE13050:01C46DB6] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Also another >instance of a limited gene pool, and luckily there has been no banana >blight (yet?) Oh yes there is. It's serious enough that the banana we know might disappear entirely and be replaced with another variety that has a slightly different taste and texture. Talking of bananas: In Dangerous Beauty, the protagonist eats a banana. I know bananas appear in botanical books of the period, but I was under the impression that they hadn't reached Europe by the 16th C. (I know this is not the best list for this, but I don't want to subscribe to a food list just to ask one question). Can anyone confirm this? Is it a mistake? _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the MSN Premium and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 13:42:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JHg2RM021433 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:42:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHevd5023482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:40:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHet4g053523; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:40:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hiram.io.com (root@hiram.io.com [199.170.88.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHeo4g053472 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:40:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from webmail.io.com (IDENT:XbhbWAPulVh/zn8ueFkLstwjy02YOkd4@columbia.io.com [199.170.88.107]) by hiram.io.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6JHepu10501 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:40:52 -0500 Received: from webmail.io.com (webmail [127.0.0.1]) by webmail.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6JHendR003424 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:40:49 -0500 Received: (from apache@localhost) by webmail.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i6JHen52003422; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:40:49 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: webmail.io.com: apache set sender to chiara@io.com using -f Received: from 63.119.218.167 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ches) by webmail.io.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:40:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <31681.63.119.218.167.1090258849.squirrel@webmail.io.com> In-Reply-To: <40FBF7CC.30402@kabelfoon.nl> References: <40FBF7CC.30402@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:40:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie From: "Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO OMG! Is that the dress that Whoopi wore at the awards show one year? Deredere Galbraith said: > They are bringing out a new Queen Eliabeth Barbie. > I must say this one looks a lot better than the last one. > Very nice in detail. > http://www.barbiecollector.com/showcase/product.asp?type=&subtype=&product_id=1003486 > > Mmm they have also Lord of the Rings Barbies. > Galadriel and Legolas look very cool. > > Greetings, > Deredere > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Ches _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 13:44:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JHiSRM021478 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:44:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHfRd5023538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:41:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHfQ4g053939; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:41:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHfM4g053878 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:41:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6JIDP5c048498 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:13:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6JIDP7m048497 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:13:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407191813.i6JIDP7m048497@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <1cd.26253b76.2e2d41cc@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > All this talk about banana flesh and apple ovaries is seriously affecting > > my interest in EVER eating another piece of fruit! > > > > One should never think too much about what one is eating....be it plant > ovaries or dead bird or fermented milk fat with fungus in it. > > Reminds me of a discussion on the classical music boards [we talk about > everything but music] when someone said "I don't like those Georgia O'Keef > paintings of flowers. They look like sex organs." > [Of course a flower IS a sex organ!] The first time I taught General Botany, one of my students told me that she'd never look at food the same way again. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 13:44:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JHisRM021492 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:44:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHgcd5023664 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:42:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHga4g054889; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:42:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHgW4g054837 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:42:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA27236 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:42:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:42:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001701c46dac$4c63d4f0$862d2104@brandyscomp> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Elizabeth Siddal book coming out in Sept. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO For fans of 19th century "reform movement" women's clothing or anyone interested in the Pre-raphaelite artists, Andre Deutsch Publishing is supposed to publish a book: Elizabeth Siddal: The first supermodel in Sept. Elizabeth Siddal, as evidenced in Dante Gabriel Rossetti's many drawings and portraits of her, often wore "reform" gowns, either of her own or DG's design(scholars are divided on whom to lay credit)consisting of a loosely front-pleated bodice, easy-fitting long sleeves, and a gathered skirt with few or no petticoats. Emily Bronte also was recorded as favoring gigot sleeves long after they had gone out of fashion and narrower skirts than fashion demanded with no petticoats. Full sleeves(or at least fuller sleeves) than the low set-below the shoulder, tight-fitting 1840's sleeves and narrower skirts than the fashionable 1840's line certainly would have been more practical for Emily's lifestyle involving housework, cooking, moor-roaming, and even piano-playing and writing than the more constrictive 1840's styles. Cindy Abel -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Brandy Deming Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 11:20 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Yes, I too sometimes dance in elevators, just to give myself a giggle :) I think I'll have to watch that one again soon. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teddy" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? > > > How can one forget Totally Modern Millie, I almost wet myself > > when she burst out of her corset, because I too, cannot get > > my beads to hang straight :) > > That's in the opening credits sequence of Thoroughly Modern Millie > (oneof my favourite films). Strange how that's one of the most commonly > remembered bits of the film. > > I love the dancing in the lift scenes myself. Not sure I ever liked it > for the costumes specifically (though Mary Tyler Moore had some lovely > outfits in that film) > > Teddy > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 13:53:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JHrhRM021523 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:53:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHpQd5024765 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:51:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHpQ4g062478; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:51:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHpE4g062321 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:51:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6JINI5c048606 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:23:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6JINIhN048605 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:23:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407191823.i6JINIhN048605@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >Also another > >instance of a limited gene pool, and luckily there has been no banana > >blight (yet?) > > Oh yes there is. It's serious enough that the banana we know might disappear > entirely and be replaced with another variety that has a slightly different > taste and texture. > > Talking of bananas: > > In Dangerous Beauty, the protagonist eats a banana. I know bananas appear in > botanical books of the period, but I was under the impression that they > hadn't reached Europe by the 16th C. (I know this is not the best list for > this, but I don't want to subscribe to a food list just to ask one > question). Can anyone confirm this? Is it a mistake? The banana was introduced to Europe in 1516 (Heiser, C., 1981. Seed to Civilization, Second Ed. W.H. Freeman & Co. 254pp.) http://www.huntington.org/BotanicalDiv/Timeline.html Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 13:57:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JHvWRM021531 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:57:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHnOd5024414 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:49:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHmI4g059496; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:48:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp4.pacifier.net (smtp4.pacifier.net [64.255.237.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHlG4g058583 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:47:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kat@grendal.rain.com) Received: from KATHOUSE (ip134.131.du.eli.iinet.com [67.136.131.134]) by smtp4.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B5406B3B2 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:47:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit Message-ID: <40FBA6B6.30843.36537C6@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > In Dangerous Beauty, the protagonist eats a banana. I know bananas > appear in botanical books of the period, but I was under the > impression that they hadn't reached Europe by the 16th C. (I know this > is not the best list for this, but I don't want to subscribe to a food > list just to ask one question). Can anyone confirm this? Is it a > mistake? In one of the Tudor digs done by the Museum of London they found a banana peel in a 16th C garbage pit used by the middle class. So, it must have done so at least in England at least. However, I suspect that the way that the protagonist eats the banana was fictional. (I don't recall there being anywhere in the _The Honest Courtesan_ where she talks about eating bananas, and Dangerous Beauty was based on the writings and family letters of a real woman named Veronica Franco who lived from 1546 until 1591 from Venice.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 13:59:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JHx2RM021541 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:59:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHusd5025372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:56:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHun4g066842; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:56:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHug4g066726 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:56:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.45.134]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040719175641.EJUK1464.out001.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:56:41 -0500 Message-ID: <009f01c46db9$bf80e790$862d2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FBF7CC.30402@kabelfoon.nl> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:56:41 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.33.45.134] at Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:56:41 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Shouldn't the Marie Antoinette Barbie come with a detachable head? B (LOL) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deredere Galbraith" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 9:33 AM Subject: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie > They are bringing out a new Queen Eliabeth Barbie. > I must say this one looks a lot better than the last one. > Very nice in detail. > http://www.barbiecollector.com/showcase/product.asp?type=&subtype=&product_id=1003486 > > Mmm they have also Lord of the Rings Barbies. > Galadriel and Legolas look very cool. > > Greetings, > Deredere > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 14:09:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JI8xRM021613 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:09:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JI3dd5026046 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:03:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JI3a4g072501; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:03:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JI3V4g072350 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:03:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1eb.2572f42f (4568) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:03:22 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <1eb.2572f42f.2e2d66ea@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:03:22 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/19/2004 1:57:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, queenscorner@verizon.net writes: Shouldn't the Marie Antoinette Barbie come with a detachable head? My cheap imitation of a Barbie, called Babette, does have a detachable head--came in very handy to put on turtleneck sweaters, as the collars would not stretch enough to go over her head. Her head is also soft and hollow, so I could stick pins straight in to do her hair. She dates from the very late '50s or early '60s, and is now permanently dressed as Josephine. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 14:09:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JI9CRM021622 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:09:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JI68d5026388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:06:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JI674g074556; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:06:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JI624g074444 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:06:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29050 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:10:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:10:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Bananas, and costume too (was: Veg vs. fruit) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: > Talking of bananas: > > In Dangerous Beauty, the protagonist eats a banana. I know bananas > appear in botanical books of the period, but I was under the > impression that they hadn't reached Europe by the 16th C. (I know this > is not the best list for this, but I don't want to subscribe to a food > list just to ask one question). Can anyone confirm this? Is it a > mistake? I don't know what the filmmakers intended or if they had reason to put a banana in Italy at that time, but it may have been a mistake that turned out to be prescient. Common knowledge on the banana's availability was thrown for a loop in 1999 after this: http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba47/ba47feat.html Go to the last item, at the very bottom. I remember the initial news reports of the banana, though I can't find any of them online now, and there's only a brief mention here. But the rest of the article is interesting from a costume standpoint, particularly for those working in English Tudor. And hurrah, we are now back on-topic. The initial brief notice of the dig is here: http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba46/ba46news.html Hey Marc -- do you know if anything has come yet of research on the 400 leather shoes found at that site? --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 14:43:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JIh7RM021795 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:43:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JIc0d5029879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:38:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JIbs4g099501; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:37:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from asmtp-a063f35.pas.sa.earthlink.net (asmtp-a063f35.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.120.220]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JIbq4g099466 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:37:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.172.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.172] helo=HELENPINTO) by asmtp-a063f35.pas.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bmd1K-0005lC-M8 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:37:51 -0700 Message-ID: <031901c46dbf$776f71f0$ac399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:37:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9efd9adc29634abda672b53c96305431056350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.172 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] More than you ever want to know about bananas X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Audrey wrote: > In Dangerous Beauty, the protagonist eats a banana. I know bananas appear in > botanical books of the period, but I was under the impression that they > hadn't reached Europe by the 16th C. (I know this is not the best list for > this, but I don't want to subscribe to a food list just to ask one > question). Can anyone confirm this? Is it a mistake? > > http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/morton/banana.html#Description The website above (from Purdue University Centre for New Crops and Plant Products) has more than you may ever need or want to know about bananas. They believe bananas first came to Europe in the 10c CE and were brought to South America from West Africa by the Portuguese in the 16c CE. It's plausible, considering the vast trade network in Venice. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 14:46:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JIkZRM021816 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:46:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JIibd5000860 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:44:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JIiX4g005288; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:44:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JIiV4g005183 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:44:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.201] (p41.3c04.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.201]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6JIhmP14095 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:43:50 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) In-Reply-To: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> References: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0290E3F0-D9B4-11D8-9592-000A95C59FB2@ntw.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:46:56 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I see how the others are, but wheat? And technically, I guess I can think of very few real veges we eat. Brocolli, cauliflower, cabbage, lettuce, carrots. What else? On Jul 19, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Susan Farmer wrote: >> >> So cucumbers and peppers are really fruits? > > Yep. So are beans, peas, corn and wheat, etc. > > Jerusha > >> >> On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:49 PM, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: >> >>> In a message dated 7/18/04 6:48:09 PM Central Daylight Time, >>> sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: >>> If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. >>> >>> Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. >>> Cool! >>> > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 14:55:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JIt8RM021860 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:55:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JIq2d5001673 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:52:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JIq14g011287; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:52:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from asmtp-a063f35.pas.sa.earthlink.net (asmtp-a063f35.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.120.220]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JIpw4g011226 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:51:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.172.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.172] helo=HELENPINTO) by asmtp-a063f35.pas.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BmdEy-0008JB-EB for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:51:57 -0700 Message-ID: <035201c46dc1$74ede540$ac399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FBF7CC.30402@kabelfoon.nl> <31681.63.119.218.167.1090258849.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:51:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef64b6296a72e87b2369369aa98eb58fba350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.172 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Chiara wrote: > Is that the dress that Whoopi wore at the awards show one year? The Whoopi Goldberg dress looks more like the Barbie dress than the Judi Dench (Shakespeare in Love) it was parodying. To increase brain freeze, here's: Whoopi- http://www.nandotimes.com/nt/images/oscars98/images/oscars42.jpeg Judi- http://extratv.warnerbros.com/img/presentations/99_01_13a/judi.jpg and Barbie- http://www.barbiecollector.com/showcase/product.asp?type=&subtype=&product_id=1003486 Enjoy, -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 15:05:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JJ57RM021991 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:05:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JJ2id5002896 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:02:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JJ2f4g020569; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:02:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f14.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.64]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JJ2Z4g020413 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:02:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:02:29 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:02:29 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:02:29 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2004 19:02:29.0703 (UTC) FILETIME=[F05E9570:01C46DC2] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] THE Banana, was OT: Veg vs. fruit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: kat@grendal.rain.com >>In Dangerous Beauty, the protagonist eats a banana. I know bananas >>appear in botanical books of the period, but I was under the >>impression that they hadn't reached Europe by the 16th C. (I know this >>is not the best list for this, but I don't want to subscribe to a food >>list just to ask one question). Can anyone confirm this? Is it a >>mistake? >In one of the Tudor digs done by the Museum of London they found a >banana peel in a 16th C garbage pit used by the middle class. So, it >must have done so at least in England at least... There's an amusing story there, which we might ascribe to cynical rumor, it it weren't for the fact that I know just how important it is to find funding and support for archaeology. When the (whole) banana was found in the Tooley street dig in 1999, it was immeadiately snatched up and touted the press as the Tudor banana, and "might have come from the table of the King" or somesuch (completely overlooking the obvious question of what a single intact banana from the table of the King would be doing in a Southwark trash pit), and put on display at the MOL. At the point it was lauched on its career in the public eye, it had undergone no preservation, no real research, and the other items in that part of the dig had not been contexted yet, so God only knows when it really came from. I assume that when the dig is fully written up and published it will have a better date for that blackened plantain :) [Of course, by that time, it will have been referred to and cited as being "tudor" whether it is or not.] Marc _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 15:22:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JJMMRM022057 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:22:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHtOd5025198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:55:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHtL4g065660; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:55:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JHtG4g065597 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:55:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA26010 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:55:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:55:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <31681.63.119.218.167.1090258849.squirrel@webmail.io.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I believe this doll is based on the Ditchey portrait of Elizabeth, circa 1590 where Elizabeth is shown standing on a map of England. I believe this doll is also priced very high so the outfit should be more accurate than the earlier Elizabethan Barbie or the Tudor Court Princess Barbie where the Gable hood is only the shape of the front metal part of the hood and sits on the head like a modern headband. Also I just got Tudor Children by Sallie Purkis--about a third-grade level children's book. The cover illustration by Georgia Denby is a photograph of a modern girl in early Tudor costume. The gable hood is very interesting in construction as the black "undercurtain" that covers the front hair and appears to help support the gable framework seems here to be more of an undercoif that wraps around the head over the ears and crisscrosses at center front. Any comments? Cindy Abel -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:41 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie OMG! Is that the dress that Whoopi wore at the awards show one year? Deredere Galbraith said: > They are bringing out a new Queen Eliabeth Barbie. > I must say this one looks a lot better than the last one. > Very nice in detail. > http://www.barbiecollector.com/showcase/product.asp?type=&subtype=&product_i d=1003486 > > Mmm they have also Lord of the Rings Barbies. > Galadriel and Legolas look very cool. > > Greetings, > Deredere > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Ches _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 16:11:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JKBdRM022493 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:11:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JK7QfJ009269 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:09:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JK094g067873; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:00:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JK044g067818 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:00:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6JKW85c049887 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:32:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6JKW8J2049886 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:32:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407192032.i6JKW8J2049886@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <0290E3F0-D9B4-11D8-9592-000A95C59FB2@ntw.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.72, clamav-milter version 0.72 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I see how the others are, but wheat? yup. those kernals tht you grind up to make flour are wheat fruits. It's called a caryopsis because the seed is fused to the fruit coat unlike an achene where the seed coat is free -- think sunflower seed. > And technically, I guess I can think of very few real veges we eat. > Brocolli, cauliflower, cabbage, lettuce, carrots. What else? beets, parsnips, radish, turnip, kale, kohlrhabi, rhubarb, potatos, sweet potatos, yams, garlic, onions, asparagus, bok choy, celery That's what I can come up with off the top of my head. Mushrooms might fit in there, but botanically speaking they're not plants; they're the fruiting body of a fungus. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 16:14:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JKEqRM022502 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:14:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JKAMd5009801 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:10:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JKAL4g076972; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:10:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JK714g073774 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:07:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kat@grendal.rain.com) Received: from KATHOUSE (ip216.128.du.eli.iinet.com [67.136.128.216]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A196BDEA for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:06:34 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:06:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Message-ID: <40FBC75E.2274.3E4C910@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1eb.2572f42f.2e2d66ea@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > In a message dated 7/19/2004 1:57:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, > queenscorner@verizon.net writes: > Shouldn't the Marie Antoinette Barbie come with a detachable head? My > cheap imitation of a Barbie, called Babette, does have a detachable > head--came in very handy to put on turtleneck sweaters, as the collars > would not stretch enough to go over her head. Her head is also soft > and hollow, so I could stick pins straight in to do her hair. She > dates from the very late '50s or early '60s, and is now permanently > dressed as Josephine. I had a Babette too. She was definitely a "cheap imitation"! My Barbies had removable heads. In fact, in the early 60s you could buy the head separately (with different hair styles). It was great for when someone broke one of your Barbie's legs and tore out the hair of another. You could just switch them off. (I still have my original Barbie from c.1958 or 60. Of course, it isn't in perfect condition because my mom "lent" them to my older sister for her oldest daughter. It's a wonder I got anything back!) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 16:24:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JKOBRM022674 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:24:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JKM2d5011044 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:22:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JKLw4g035000; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:22:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net (smtp1.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JKLu4h034850 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:21:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4741D8345 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 07838-06 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:20:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.78.64.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D1333D833C for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:20:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <07f001c46dcd$fb7998f0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FBC75E.2274.3E4C910@localhost> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:21:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > My Barbies had removable heads. In fact, in the early 60s you could > buy the head separately (with different hair styles). It was great > for when someone broke one of your Barbie's legs and tore out the > hair of another. You could just switch them off. (I still have my > original Barbie from c.1958 or 60. Of course, it isn't in perfect > condition because my mom "lent" them to my older sister for her > oldest daughter. It's a wonder I got anything back!) > > Kat I had Barbies with removable heads too, from the mid-late sixties and early seventies. One of them had dark hair in a sort of a flip, and blue eyes. Years later, I found just the head. Last I saw of it, my older sister had put it on her car antenna. (lol) I also have a couple of the patterns my mom used to sew their clothing. I think I may take a stab at it. It's got to be easier than the one-shoulder gown my best friend had me make for her daughter's Barbie...out of tissue lame! OMG was that a PITA!! Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 16:51:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JKpHRM022954 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:51:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JKm7d5013876 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:48:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JKm34g059072; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:48:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JKlx4g059025 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:47:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C634427D78 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:47:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p408.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.217.154]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 9FCC6D4B2 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:47:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:48:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <40FBF7CC.30402@kabelfoon.nl> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hmmm. I need to re read the royal english lineage I thought James was the last Tudor. >From the site: "The last of the Tudor monarchs, Queen Elizabeth I is considered one of the most successful and popular British rulers in history". De -----Original Message----- They are bringing out a new Queen Eliabeth Barbie. I must say this one looks a lot better than the last one. Very nice in detail. http://www.barbiecollector.com/showcase/product.asp?type=&subtype=&product_i d=1003486 Mmm they have also Lord of the Rings Barbies. Galadriel and Legolas look very cool. Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 17:07:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JL7HRM023030 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:07:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JL5rd5015687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:05:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JL5o4g073544; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:05:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JL5f4g073432 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:05:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6JLbl5c050651 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:37:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6JLblMU050650 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:37:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407192137.i6JLblMU050650@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Hmmm. I need to re read the royal english lineage I thought James was the > last Tudor. > >From the site: "The last of the Tudor monarchs, Queen Elizabeth I is > considered one of the most successful and popular British rulers in > history". Yep. James was the first Stuart. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 17:14:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JLEARM023050 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:14:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JLAwd5016286 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:10:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JLAw4g077636; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:10:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts5.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.163]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JLAp4g077499 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:10:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.68.137.148]) by simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040719210953.TGVM3387.simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:09:53 -0400 Message-ID: <02a601c46dd4$90d837c0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> <0290E3F0-D9B4-11D8-9592-000A95C59FB2@ntw.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:08:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wouldn't broccoli and cauliflower be considered flowers? Sheridan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sylvia Rognstad" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit > I see how the others are, but wheat? > > And technically, I guess I can think of very few real veges we eat. > Brocolli, cauliflower, cabbage, lettuce, carrots. What else? > > On Jul 19, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Susan Farmer wrote: > > >> > >> So cucumbers and peppers are really fruits? > > > > Yep. So are beans, peas, corn and wheat, etc. > > > > Jerusha > > > >> > >> On Jul 18, 2004, at 5:49 PM, Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: > >> > >>> In a message dated 7/18/04 6:48:09 PM Central Daylight Time, > >>> sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > >>> If it's got seeds in it, it is a fruit. > >>> > >>> Is that really how you tell fruit from vegetable? I never knew that. > >>> Cool! > >>> > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 18:24:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JMOfRM023613 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:24:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JMN9d5023643 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:23:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JMN44g035066; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:23:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JMMu4g035011 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:22:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net ([192.168.167.44]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BmgXA-0000PE-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:22:56 -0400 Message-ID: <23332693.1090275775791.JavaMail.root@wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 15:22:55 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: OT: veggie vs. fruit X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Shane & Sheridan wrote: >Wouldn't broccoli and cauliflower be considered flowers? Technically, they are immature inflorescences . But they are a plant part that is neither a fruit nor a seed, so are usually lumped in with the miscellaneous other plant parts we eat -- leaves (cabbage), roots (carrots), tubers (potatoes), leafstalks (celery), etc. -- collectively referred to as vegetables. (Unlike "fruit," "vegetable" is not a closely defined botanical term.) A story we used to tell in the introductory botany classes when I was a teaching assistant (I haven't verified it) is that botanically, a tomato indeed _is_ a fruit. However, in U.S. law it is a vegetable -- because a court so determined, when deciding a case involving whether imported tomatoes should pay the tariff rate charged for vegetables or the one charged for fruits. Reportedly the court noted that tomatoes are not perceived as sweet, and in the U.S. tend to be used in ways typical of vegetables (raw in salads, cooked in soups and savory dishes) rather than ways typical of fruits (desserts, candy, ice cream). Other "vegetables" contributed by the New World of course include squashes, the green-orange-yellow sorts of fragrant melons (honeydew, canteloupe, etc.), and the common green bean (all of which are fruits as well). Interestingly, however, IIRC the watermelon is _not_ New World -- it's native to Africa. Ummm...... let's see ......... about the only costume connection with fruit that I can think of, offhand, is Carmen Miranda's hat. (I almost made it worse by writing "off the top of my head."!) ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 19:02:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JN2SRM023924 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:02:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JN1pd5027405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:01:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JN1U4g063581; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:01:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.donet.com (mail.donet.com [64.56.96.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JN1P4h063540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:01:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mjh@pearlandplume.com) Received: (qmail 11589 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2004 23:01:23 -0000 X-Sender: mjh@pearlandplume.com X-Recipient: h-costume@indra.com Received: from unknown (HELO ?65.24.121.118?) (65.24.121.118) by mail.donet.com for h-costume@indra.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 2004 23:01:23 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:56:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress From: Marsha J Hamilton To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Good grief. How beautiful!!! I'm forwarding this to some costume students to keep them motivated. Marsha ------ on 7/18/04 9:05 AM, Bjarne og Leif Drews at drewscph@post12.tele.dk wrote: > Ok, so here is the finished dress. > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Bjarne, who now earns a trip to Tivoli this afternoon for a coffe and cake. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 19:31:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6JNVpRM024113 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:31:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JNTud5029995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:29:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6JNTq4g083139; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:29:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp107.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp107.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.169.227]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6JNTm4g083094 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:29:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claudine_on_the_net@yahoo.com) Received: from unknown (HELO ?127.0.0.1?) (claudine?on?the?net@66.17.149.13 with plain) by smtp107.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jul 2004 23:29:47 -0000 Message-ID: <40FC5909.2090907@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:28:09 -0700 From: Claudine User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Old Navy shoes - squint and they might be correct? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi! This is not entirely a serious question, but judging from recent subject lines it looks like I'm asking at the right time. :) Old Navy has a cute pair of Mary Janes: http://www.oldnavy.com/asp/Product.asp?wdid=200530&wpid=255776 They make me think of the slipper-style shoes of the early 19th C. (except for the stitching across the toe), but I know very little about the 19th C. and even less about shoes. :) Would these work, at any period in time, if you were shooting for the right look but don't need to be completely authentic? Claudine P.S. Sorry if this has been posted about already. I'm a week and several hundred messages behind on this list. :)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:01:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K01tRM024312 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:01:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K018d5002905 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:01:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0164g003663; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:01:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0114g003600 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:01:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6K0X55c051827 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:33:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6K0X5NB051826 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:33:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407200033.i6K0X5NB051826@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <02a601c46dd4$90d837c0$cb6afea9@sherry> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Wouldn't broccoli and cauliflower be considered flowers? > They're flower buds actually. If you let them alone and develop naturally instead of harvesting them, you'd have flowers. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:09:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K09dRM024345 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:09:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K097d5003584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:09:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0964g008391; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:09:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0934g008358 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:09:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6K0f95c051931 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:41:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6K0f90v051930 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:41:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407200041.i6K0f90v051930@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT: veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <23332693.1090275775791.JavaMail.root@wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Shane & Sheridan wrote: > > >Wouldn't broccoli and cauliflower be considered flowers? > > Technically, they are immature inflorescences . But they are a plant part that is neither a fruit nor a seed, so are usually lumped in with the miscellaneous other plant parts we eat -- leaves (cabbage), roots (carrots), tubers (potatoes), leafstalks (celery), etc. -- collectively referred to as vegetables. (Unlike "fruit," "vegetable" is not a closely defined botanical term.) > > A story we used to tell in the introductory botany classes when I was a teaching assistant (I haven't verified it) is that botanically, a tomato indeed _is_ a fruit. However, in U.S. law it is a vegetable -- because a court so determined, when deciding a case involving whether imported tomatoes should pay the tariff rate charged for vegetables or the one charged for fruits. Reportedly the court noted that tomatoes are not perceived as sweet, and in the U.S. tend to be used in ways typical of vegetables (raw in salads, cooked in soups and savory dishes) rather than ways typical of fruits (desserts, candy, ice cream). My understanding was that it was duty on catsup and since catsup is made from tomato's ... > Other "vegetables" contributed by the New World of course include squashes, the green-orange-yellow sorts of fragrant melons (honeydew, canteloupe, etc.), and the common green bean (all of which are fruits as well). Interestingly, however, IIRC the watermelon is _not_ New World -- it's native to Africa. > > Ummm...... let's see ......... about the only costume connection with fruit that I can think of, offhand, is Carmen Miranda's hat. > > (I almost made it worse by writing "off the top of my head."!) You forgot cotton. Cotton threads are part of the endocarp of the fruit. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:24:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0OIRM024378 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:24:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0Nad5004609 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:23:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0NY4g017208; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:23:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0NU4g017157 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:23:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m148.in-tch.com [216.166.191.148]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6K0NSN10186 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:23:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FC66F0.70107@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:27:28 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) References: <050c01c46da5$196494b0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> In-Reply-To: <050c01c46da5$196494b0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO TOAP??? --sue Dianne & Greg Stucki wrote: > But there is a difference between wearing a bodice (and I LOVE my > Elizabethans) and the TOAP look. One is correct to the period, one is not. I > have seen some TOAP outfits where the woman's breasts just looked like > floppy sacks hanging over the top of the bodice, adn it's just not > attractive! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:31:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0VlRM024451 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:31:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0Ucd5005295 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:30:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0Ua4g021526; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:30:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0UW4g021502 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:30:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m148.in-tch.com [216.166.191.148]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6K0UVN13053 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:30:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FC6898.1090700@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:34:32 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading References: <40FBCB4C.5060003@in-tch.com> <002901c46dac$dfc8ae50$862d2104@brandyscomp> In-Reply-To: <002901c46dac$dfc8ae50$862d2104@brandyscomp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In Montana (where I live) it's a something-something Noxious Weed (whatever the worst category is). There's so much of it growing wild that it's crowding out the native vegetation. We have similar issues with St. John's Wort and knapweed, the latter of which was originally imported into the area to provide a source for the honeybees (knap honey is pretty tasty). There's an annual "weeding party" on Mount Sentinel (low mountain just outside of town that happens to get a lot of foot traffic) every Memorial Day weekend that I hope to be able to participate in next year. The weeders specifically go after dyer's woad, although they're not using it, just getting rid of it. Funny, isn't it, how a plant can be so useful in some contexts, and a major source of agricultural problems in other contexts? --sue Brandy Deming wrote: > Why is it illegal to grow woad? > > B > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sue Clemenger" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 6:23 AM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading > > > >>You can actually purchase both, at least for hobby-scale dyeing. I've >>got some, as we can't grow woad here, legally (other than Japanese >>indigo). I have friends who've also been able to purchase finished >>cloth done in natural indigo. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:34:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0YERM024492 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:34:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0WRd5005493 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:32:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0WP4g022573; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:32:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0WK4g022524 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:32:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6K14R5c052156 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:04:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6K14RRv052155 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:04:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407200104.i6K14RRv052155@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) In-Reply-To: <40FC66F0.70107@in-tch.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > TOAP??? T*ts On A Plate Jerusha > Dianne & Greg Stucki wrote: > > > But there is a difference between wearing a bodice (and I LOVE my > > Elizabethans) and the TOAP look. One is correct to the period, one is not. I > > have seen some TOAP outfits where the woman's breasts just looked like > > floppy sacks hanging over the top of the bodice, adn it's just not > > attractive! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:37:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0bJRM024580 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:37:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0ajd5005811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:36:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0ai4g025091; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:36:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0ad4g025048 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:36:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m148.in-tch.com [216.166.191.148]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6K0abN14945 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:36:38 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FC6A06.8040103@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:40:38 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit References: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, no, not exactly. Corn is, I think, a grass, and the part of the corn plant (speaking of "maize," here) that we eat is the seed, and not the part of the plant that surrounds the seed. Ditto, wheat. With beans and peas, depending on the type of plant, we're usually eating the seed parts, too. I suppose that green beans and edible pea pods would technically be fruit. --sue, trying and failing to find costume content in this.... Susan Farmer wrote: >>So cucumbers and peppers are really fruits? > > > Yep. So are beans, peas, corn and wheat, etc. > > Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:44:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0i4RM024681 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:44:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0g5d5006269 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:42:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0g34g028165; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:42:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f38.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0fw4g028083 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:41:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:41:53 -0700 Received: from 66.25.125.118 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:41:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.125.118] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Website Updates Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:41:53 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2004 00:41:53.0667 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A3CE530:01C46DF2] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I will be at Dragoncon. Is anyone else from the list planning on comming? Wilhelmina >From: "Marian Brock-Andersen" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: >Subject: [h-cost] Website Updates >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:07:50 -0400 > >I hope you all are having a fantastic summer! > >This e-mail is to let you all know that we are in the process of making >many changes to the web site. Though its not done yet we encourage you to >take a look. > >We would also like to remind you that Dragoncon is coming soon and we hope >to see you stop by the table. > >If you do not wish to receive e-mails from Rogues Tailor in the future, >please replied with Remove as subject line. Thank You. > >Marian Brock-Andersen >www.roguestailor.com >PO BOX 404 >Clayton NJ 08312 >856-981-1169 >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to ‘Dig Yourself Out of Debt’ from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:46:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0k0RM024694 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:46:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0gCd5006284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:42:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0gC4g028259; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:42:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f27.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0fw4g028082 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:41:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:41:53 -0700 Received: from 66.25.125.118 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:41:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.125.118] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Website Updates Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:41:53 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2004 00:41:53.0545 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A2A4790:01C46DF2] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I will be at Dragoncon. Is anyone else from the list planning on comming? Wilhelmina >From: "Marian Brock-Andersen" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: >Subject: [h-cost] Website Updates >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:07:50 -0400 > >I hope you all are having a fantastic summer! > >This e-mail is to let you all know that we are in the process of making >many changes to the web site. Though its not done yet we encourage you to >take a look. > >We would also like to remind you that Dragoncon is coming soon and we hope >to see you stop by the table. > >If you do not wish to receive e-mails from Rogues Tailor in the future, >please replied with Remove as subject line. Thank You. > >Marian Brock-Andersen >www.roguestailor.com >PO BOX 404 >Clayton NJ 08312 >856-981-1169 >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to ‘Dig Yourself Out of Debt’ from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:46:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0krRM024698 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:46:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0gdd5006353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:42:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0gc4g028526; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:42:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0gX4g028484 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:42:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m148.in-tch.com [216.166.191.148]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6K0gWN17007 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:42:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FC6B69.50209@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:46:33 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT: Veg vs. fruit References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO IIRC, it's been discussed on occasion on the SCA-Cooks' list. I think that there's *very* limited evidence of a banana (perhaps a plantain?) being found in London prior to 1600. Don't know about Venice. Hmmmm...I'll ask the gang, and let y'all know what they say. --sue Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: > In Dangerous Beauty, the protagonist eats a banana. I know bananas > appear in botanical books of the period, but I was under the impression > that they hadn't reached Europe by the 16th C. (I know this is not the > best list for this, but I don't want to subscribe to a food list just to > ask one question). Can anyone confirm this? Is it a mistake? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:54:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0sVRM024741 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:54:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0rmd5007034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:53:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0rk4g035025; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:53:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0rg4g034949 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:53:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 6C59618007F7 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:53:33 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.30) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 20 Jul 2004 00:51:37 -0000 Received: by ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5A7AD86AE1; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:53:33 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:53:33 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:53:33 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Old Navy shoes - squint and they might be correct? X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040720005333.5A7AD86AE1@ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO HI, Regency footwear is something I'm interested in, though I don't know a huge amount about it. I still have a lot to learn. If you were just aiming for a general look, they would probably be ok, especially if you replaced the strap with criss-crossing ribbons like you can see on this page: http://www.songsmyth.com/shoes.html Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > Hi! > > This is not entirely a serious question, but judging from recent subject > lines it looks like I'm asking at the right time. :) > > Old Navy has a cute pair of Mary Janes: > > http://www.oldnavy.com/asp/Product.asp?wdid=200530&wpid=255776 > > They make me think of the slipper-style shoes of the early 19th C. > (except for the stitching across the toe), but I know very little about > the 19th C. and even less about shoes. :) > > Would these work, at any period in time, if you were shooting for the > right look but don't need to be completely authentic? > > > > > Claudine > > P.S. Sorry if this has been posted about already. I'm a week and several > hundred messages behind on this list. :)) > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:57:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0vVRM024746 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:57:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0t5d5007112 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:55:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0t44g035746; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:55:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0t14g035731 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:55:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m148.in-tch.com [216.166.191.148]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6K0t1N21679 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:55:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FC6E56.9050309@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:59:02 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO James (VI and I) was a Stuart. --sue otsisto wrote: > Hmmm. I need to re read the royal english lineage I thought James was the > last Tudor. >>From the site: "The last of the Tudor monarchs, Queen Elizabeth I is > considered one of the most successful and popular British rulers in > history". _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 20:59:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K0wxRM024765 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:58:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0trd5007185 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:55:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0tq4g036181; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:55:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K0tn4g036153 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 18:55:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.45.134]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040720005548.JEWD1464.out001.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:55:48 -0500 Message-ID: <009801c46df4$4d249f30$862d2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Website Updates Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:55:49 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.33.45.134] at Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:55:48 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Too far away for me :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 5:41 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Website Updates > I will be at Dragoncon. Is anyone else from the list planning on comming? > > Wilhelmina > > > >From: "Marian Brock-Andersen" > >Reply-To: Historical Costume > >To: > >Subject: [h-cost] Website Updates > >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 16:07:50 -0400 > > > >I hope you all are having a fantastic summer! > > > >This e-mail is to let you all know that we are in the process of making > >many changes to the web site. Though its not done yet we encourage you to > >take a look. > > > >We would also like to remind you that Dragoncon is coming soon and we hope > >to see you stop by the table. > > > >If you do not wish to receive e-mails from Rogues Tailor in the future, > >please replied with Remove as subject line. Thank You. > > > >Marian Brock-Andersen > >www.roguestailor.com > >PO BOX 404 > >Clayton NJ 08312 > >856-981-1169 > >_______________________________________________ > >h-costume mailing list > >h-costume@mail.indra.com > >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _________________________________________________________________ > Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to 'Dig Yourself Out of Debt' from MSN > Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 21:01:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K11vRM024812 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:01:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K11Gd5007515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:01:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K11E4g039379; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:01:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K11B4g039348 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:01:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m148.in-tch.com [216.166.191.148]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6K11AN23731 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:01:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FC6FC7.8030901@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:05:11 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit References: <200407200033.i6K0X5NB051826@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407200033.i6K0X5NB051826@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Along with other plant foods like artichokes and brussel sprouts. --sue Susan Farmer wrote: >>Wouldn't broccoli and cauliflower be considered flowers? >> > > > They're flower buds actually. If you let them alone and > develop naturally instead of harvesting them, you'd have > flowers. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 21:04:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K14LRM024819 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:04:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K13Dd5007678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:03:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K13C4g040528; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:03:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net (smtp1.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1394h040439 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:03:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62650D82EE for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 28236-10 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.78.64.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 095DFD82EB for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <090601c46df5$28249e00$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <050c01c46da5$196494b0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> <40FC66F0.70107@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:01:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Clemenger" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: King Arthur (The Roman-ish dress) > TOAP??? > --sue Tits on a platter. Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 21:12:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K1CURM024834 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:12:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1C1d5008246 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:12:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1Bx4g045682; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:12:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m18.mx.aol.com (imo-m18.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1Bu4g045613 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:11:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.5b.53dc7232 (3996) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:11:49 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <5b.53dc7232.2e2dcb55@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:11:49 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Old Navy shoes - squint and they might be correct? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here is another alternative: http://www.auditionsshoes.com/product.asp?family%5Fid=5262 I take out the ties and substitute either matching or contrasting ribbon. I like these because I have wide feet, and these also come in a variety of colors. They aren't perfect, either, with the elastic binding, but they do have a good-looking small heel. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 21:14:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K1EWRM024839 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:14:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1Dpd5008355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:13:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1Dp4g046709; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:13:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1Dm4g046683 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:13:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m148.in-tch.com [216.166.191.148]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6K1DlN28076 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:13:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FC72BB.2060209@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:17:47 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Renaissance Dyeing - Embroidery Yarns in Natural Dyes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The current discussion on natural dyes had me thinking of this website. I haven't actually ordered anything from them, although a friend has. Thought that those of you who embellish your historical clothing might appreciate an additional source. --sue _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 21:53:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K1rARM025194 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:53:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1old5010707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:50:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1oi4g067917; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:50:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1og4g067845 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:50:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.159.3a43037d (4340) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:50:29 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <159.3a43037d.2e2dd465@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:50:29 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT: veggie vs. fruit To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/19/2004 8:09:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > Ummm...... let's see ......... about the only costume connection with fruit > that I can think of, offhand, is Carmen Miranda's hat. > > > >(I almost made it worse by writing "off the top of my head."!) > > You forgot cotton. Cotton threads are part of the endocarp of the > fruit. > And of course flax is a stalk....I guess. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 21:53:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K1rnRM025215 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:53:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1pWd5010753 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:51:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1pW4g068330; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:51:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m27.mx.aol.com (imo-m27.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K1pS4g068257 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:51:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.99.49a27cfc (4340) for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:51:19 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <99.49a27cfc.2e2dd497@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:51:19 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT: veggie vs. fruit To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/19/2004 8:09:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > Ummm...... let's see ......... about the only costume connection with fruit > that I can think of, offhand, is Carmen Miranda's hat. > And how many vegetable dyes are really made with vegetables? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 23:41:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K3fWRM026670 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:41:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K3dcd5018283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:39:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K3dN4g030948; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:39:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K3dI4g030910 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:39:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6K4BQ5c053422 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:11:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6K4BQT2053421 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:11:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407200411.i6K4BQT2053421@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <40FC6A06.8040103@in-tch.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Well, no, not exactly. Corn is, I think, a grass, and the part of the > corn plant (speaking of "maize," here) that we eat is the seed, and not > the part of the plant that surrounds the seed. Ditto, wheat. With > beans and peas, depending on the type of plant, we're usually eating the > seed parts, too. I suppose that green beans and edible pea pods would > technically be fruit. First off, grasses are just *wierd* They have their own floral structure and terminology. The part of a corn plant that becomes the ear is really an inflorescence. Each kernal is an individual ovary with its own stigma and style -- that's what the silk is. (Wheat, also being a grass, is similar.) In the case of corn and wheat, the individual fruits are called caryopsis in which the fruit wall is fused to the seed. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 23:53:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K3rlRM026798 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:53:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K3old5019024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:50:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K3ok4g037333; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:50:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K3og4g037301 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:50:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6K4Mn5c053547 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:22:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6K4Mneg053546 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:22:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407200422.i6K4Mneg053546@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT: veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <159.3a43037d.2e2dd465@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > In a message dated 7/19/2004 8:09:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, > sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > > > Ummm...... let's see ......... about the only costume connection with fruit > > that I can think of, offhand, is Carmen Miranda's hat. > > > > > >(I almost made it worse by writing "off the top of my head."!) > > > > You forgot cotton. Cotton threads are part of the endocarp of the > > fruit. > > > > And of course flax is a stalk....I guess. Yep. So is hemp and raime. :-) Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 19 23:59:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K3x4RM026803 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:59:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K3txd5019321 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:55:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K3tu4g040323; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:55:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtpg.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpg.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.87]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K3tr4g040271 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:55:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mffski@ptd.net) Received: (qmail 20686 invoked by uid 50005); 20 Jul 2004 03:55:49 -0000 Received: from mffski@ptd.net by smtpg.ha-net.ptd.net by uid 50002 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (uvscan: v4.2.40/v4375. spamassassin: 2.60. Clear:RC:1(24.229.32.174):. Processed in 0.013964 secs); 20 Jul 2004 03:55:49 -0000 Received: from bedroom.msns.sm.ptd.net (HELO Bedroom) ([24.229.32.174]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpg.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Jul 2004 03:55:49 -0000 Message-ID: <001f01c46e0d$6db623e0$ae20e518@Bedroom> From: "Maryanne" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040720005333.5A7AD86AE1@ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Old Navy shoes - squint and they might be correct? Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:55:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Regency footwear is something I'm interested in, though I don't know a huge amount about it. I still have a lot to learn. If you were just aiming for a general look, they would probably be ok, especially if you replaced the strap with criss-crossing ribbons like you can see on this page: > http://www.songsmyth.com/shoes.html > > Some of these regency slippers look very much like modern ballet shoes - the soft kind. They have straight sides, and are made of very soft leather. I wear them all summer long. My Capezio's are lined with fabric, and feel like soft gloves for the feet. Maryanne in Bethlehem, PA _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 00:25:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K4PhRM027121 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:25:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K4Nsd5021157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:23:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K4Nq4g055889; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:23:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K4No4g055870 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:23:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-67-101-144-227.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([67.101.144.227] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BmmAP-00060x-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:23:49 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> References: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:52:36 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 1:14 PM -0400 7/19/04, Susan Farmer wrote: > > >> So cucumbers and peppers are really fruits? > >Yep. So are beans, peas, corn and wheat, etc. Mind you, this entire thread simply points out that we have two entirely different sets of labels for edible plant parts which, confusingly, use a lot of the same words. The botanist's terminology is based on plant anatomy while the cook's terminology is based on cultural patterns of culinary usage. Neither one is really more "correct" than the other, and using either in the opposite context will cause miscommunication. I always rather liked using the problem as an exercise for my students when studying conceptual categories in cognitive linguistics. Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 00:42:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K4fxRM027248 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:42:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K4cud5021938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:38:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K4cs4g064213; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:38:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f3.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.53]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K4cn4g064139 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:38:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:38:44 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.92 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:38:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.92] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:38:43 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2004 04:38:44.0287 (UTC) FILETIME=[706D6CF0:01C46E13] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: Bananas, and costume too (was: Veg vs. fruit) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Robin Netherton >Hey Marc -- do you know if anything has come yet of research on the 400 >leather shoes found at that site? Nope. The stuff I was studying there was from the test pits that went in before the full size digs . We missed the major stuff by a few weeks, and when we got there the huge group had gone into the freezer. So all we got was about 50 boxes of shoe remains and leather scraps. Even so, there were some surprises and some really educational things (c1475-1525 mostly, based on shoe technology and styles). Based on those, there should be some seriously cool stuff in the major group of shoes, although archaelogical publication can take forever. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to ‘Dig Yourself Out of Debt’ from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 01:44:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K5ipRM027939 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:44:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K5fJd5025937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:41:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K5fF4g097459; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:41:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K5fE4g097443 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:41:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B0220EF9 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:41:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p309.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.215.55]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 663F5C5F3 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:41:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Ursine was: Numenorean beards - OT Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:41:27 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I just read what I wrote, man what was I on this morning? De -----Original Message----- Several people on this list - particularly those involved in the travelling Teddy project.... Brocades and velvets and trims, Oh my! Teddy ~~~~~~~ I am not going to go there, I am oh so not going to go there. to late. Now I have dancing bears with poodle cuts wearing teddies before my minds eye. Such a grizzly sight. I should not panda'to this thread. But I bearly can resist. Must claw my way back to sanity. But did I Koalafy as being sane before the prancing teddied bears? De They say going crazy is a short trip, I must be taking the scenic route. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 02:24:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K6OYRM029329 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 02:24:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K6MBd5028141 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:22:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K6M84g018571; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:22:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K6M64g018511 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:22:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004072006220001100sui00e>; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:22:00 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 23:22:00 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <40FC6898.1090700@in-tch.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO we have similar issues here in Washington with Morning Glory, Ivy and Blackberries. There are places that spend a bloody fortune on Blackberry starts and we pay a fortune to uproot the damn things. Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Sue Clemenger Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 5:35 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading In Montana (where I live) it's a something-something Noxious Weed (whatever the worst category is). There's so much of it growing wild that it's crowding out the native vegetation. We have similar issues with St. John's Wort and knapweed, the latter of which was originally imported into the area to provide a source for the honeybees (knap honey is pretty tasty). There's an annual "weeding party" on Mount Sentinel (low mountain just outside of town that happens to get a lot of foot traffic) every Memorial Day weekend that I hope to be able to participate in next year. The weeders specifically go after dyer's woad, although they're not using it, just getting rid of it. Funny, isn't it, how a plant can be so useful in some contexts, and a major source of agricultural problems in other contexts? --sue Brandy Deming wrote: > Why is it illegal to grow woad? > > B > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sue Clemenger" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 6:23 AM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading > > > >>You can actually purchase both, at least for hobby-scale dyeing. I've >>got some, as we can't grow woad here, legally (other than Japanese >>indigo). I have friends who've also been able to purchase finished >>cloth done in natural indigo. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 03:23:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K7NlRM029854 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:23:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K7MSd5000986 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:22:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K7MF4g050637; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:22:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51305.mail.yahoo.com (web51305.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6K7MC4g050559 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:22:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freyalynn@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040720072206.52327.qmail@web51305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [195.92.168.167] by web51305.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:22:06 PDT Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:22:06 -0700 (PDT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Freyalynn=20Close-Hainsworth?= To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407191239.i6JCdW4i031204@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT - poodle-trimmed bears dancing in lace-trimmed underwear X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I admit to the bears (Numenorean or otherwise) but completely disavow all subsequent foolishness. I've enjoyed it though... Freyalyn h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > -----Original Message----- > > One assumes that essential kit for backpacking through Middle > > Earth is scissors for trimming hair and bears. > ~~~~~~~~~ > Who in their right mind would want to trim a bear? :) Several people on this list - particularly those involved in the travelling Teddy project.... Brocades and velvets and trims, Oh my! Teddy ~~~~~~~ I am not going to go there, I am oh so not going to go there. to late. Now I have dancing bears with poodle cuts wearing teddies before my minds eye. Such a grizzly sight. I should not panda'to this thread. But I bearly can resist. Must claw my way back to sanity. But did I Koalafy as being sane before the prancing teddied bears? De They say going crazy is a short trip, I must be taking the scenic route. --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 05:14:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K9EWRM031180 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:14:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9Apd5005934 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:10:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9Ak4g005977; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:10:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9Ah4g005953 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:10:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:09:01 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF77@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Numenorean beards - OT Thread-Index: AcRtr+69JLZIxhkETlqPu7zV6642XwAiTAaA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Orange and green dingle-ball fringe, too? > --sue Absofragginglutely! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 05:21:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K9L2RM031314 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:21:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9J9d5006562 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:19:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9J74g009981; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:19:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9J54g009941 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:19:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:17:12 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF78@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Thread-Index: AcRtr+69JLZIxhkETlqPu7zV6642XwAif6pQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I love the dancing in the lift scenes myself. Not sure I ever liked > > it for the costumes specifically (though Mary Tyler Moore had some > > lovely outfits in that film) > > Yes, I too sometimes dance in elevators, just to give myself > a giggle :) Be careful! I once did this while leaving a party with friends. Two of them were decidedly "merry" and decided to join in, their combined efforts made the lift grind to a halt between floors and we had to climb out on ladders lowered by the building maintenence staff from the next floor up..... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 05:21:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K9LvRM031322 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:21:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9Jtd5006814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:19:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9Jt4g010386; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:19:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9Jp4g010158 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:19:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6K9K1C02031.; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:20:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:19:27 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:18:49 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, "vegetable" simply means plant-based (as in "animal, vegetable or mineral"). We only think of cabbage etc. as being "real veges" because of our culinary traditions. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> sylvia@ntw.net 19/07/2004 19:46:56 >>> I see how the others are, but wheat? And technically, I guess I can think of very few real veges we eat. Brocolli, cauliflower, cabbage, lettuce, carrots. What else? _____________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 05:43:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6K9hlRM031710 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:43:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9ejd5007806 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:40:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9eh4g020599; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:40:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6K9ec4g020463 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 03:40:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.146.71]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6K9ePlG022028 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:40:25 +1000 Message-ID: <00ba01c46e3d$89c3fdc0$4792d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:40:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > but what she > found was a source which told her that 1: med/ren people didn't love > their children until the kids were 10 or so because most didn't survive Actually we had this debate in a tutorial for Roman history, there is some evidence that infants were not seen as a loss as serious as an adult or even an older child. Comparatively few infants or young children were given formal adult burials, One headstone of a child about 8-10 complains that the parents wished the child had died earlier before they had become so attached. Or people (I think it was Cicero quoting a common saying) claiming that if a child died it was not a great loss and if an infant died the parents barely noticed. Then there is evidence on the other side that many people did feel grief at the loss of their children such as one Roman historian who regards a character concealing her grief at the loss of her children (in order to avoid grieving her husband) as particularly heroic. Another writer regards a slaughter of children to be the worst possible tragedy ever to happen to a town. I think it's safe to say that medieval people felt differently about the death of their children as they knew they would almost certainly bury at least one probably more of their children, therefore it does not come as a huge shock, the grief is almost certainly still there, but it would be different to that of a modern parent who expects all their children to outlive them. A similar difference can be seen in regards to childbirth, medieval people were fully aware of the dangers of a confinement and expected that childbirth would result in the deaths of at least some of the women they knew, today many people believe childbirth is safe and if a woman does die they often assume there must have been some sort of incompetence on the part of the medical professionals caring for them, in reality for many women natural childbirth is one of the most dangerous experiences they will go through. Just my thoughts on the matter Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 06:13:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KADiRM032032 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:13:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KABsd5009183 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:11:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KABp4g035908; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:11:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net (smtp1.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KABl4h035782 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:11:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C76D8310 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 12498-10 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.78.64.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A002FD8302 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0a3e01c46e41$ebcd5ad0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:11:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:22 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE: Natural dyes fading > we have similar issues here in Washington with Morning Glory, Ivy and > Blackberries. There are places that spend a bloody fortune on Blackberry > starts and we pay a fortune to uproot the damn things. > > Molly /h-costume I see people buying seeds and seedlings for the Moon Flowers growing in my back yard. (Planted by a previous tenant, not me.) I'd give them all they want, if they'd get the d*** things out of here. I've dug them out, pulling out tap roots a foot long or more, pulled up every scrap of vegetation I could find, and tilled the soil. I guess it's physical therapy for them, because they're bigger and healthier every year. They're beautiful in small quantites, but there's no room for anything else! Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 06:36:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KAaSRM032397 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:36:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KAYQd5010280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:34:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KAYL4g047909; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:34:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KAYI4g047859 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:34:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:33:10 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF7E@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie Thread-Index: AcRt6MKVl0Z97aqwTU+8M6Mx18b3gAAW7L2A content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Is that the dress that Whoopi wore at the awards show one year? > > The Whoopi Goldberg dress looks more like the Barbie dress > than the Judi Dench (Shakespeare in Love) it was parodying. > To increase brain freeze, here's: > Whoopi- > http://www.nandotimes.com/nt/images/oscars98/images/oscars42.jpeg I recognize a knock-off of the Armada portrait when I see it - those bows are a dead giveaway. > Judi- > http://extratv.warnerbros.com/img/presentations/99_01_13a/judi.jpg Appart from the same general silhouette, you're right, Whoopi's outfit looks nothing like it. Could it have been intended to parody a different dress worn by Judi in the film, she didn't wear the peacock one in every scene, did she? Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 07:02:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KB2RRM000578 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:02:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KB1od5011522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:01:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KB1j4g061016; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:01:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KB1d4g060879 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:01:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.146.7]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6KB1Pv2030102 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:01:26 +1000 Message-ID: <002501c46e48$daaa21a0$0792d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FBC75E.2274.3E4C910@localhost> <07f001c46dcd$fb7998f0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:01:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I had Barbies with removable heads too, from the mid-late sixties and early > seventies. I have one real Barbie (plus a few cheaper knockoffs) from the early to mid 90s with a detachable head, it's harder to detach and reattach than the cheaper ones but it's still detachable, they will probably want to keep them detachable so they can be replaced when kids give them a haircut, also it's the easiest way to make the head moveable. Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 07:09:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KB9oRM000655 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:09:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KB80d5012122 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:08:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KB7x4g064462; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:07:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KB7u4g064439 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:07:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.146.7]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6KB7rM1031645 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:07:54 +1000 Message-ID: <002c01c46e49$c1e513e0$0792d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FC6E56.9050309@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:07:29 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Clemenger" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie > James (VI and I) was a Stuart. > --sue > Exactly the point I was going to make, Mary Queen of Scots was also a Stuart as was her father James V of Scotland, his mother, Margaret, was a Tudor, but her children took on their father's name. I suppose technically James VI/I should have taken his father's surname rather than his mother's, but as she was more important (being queen of Scotland and all) he took her name. Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 07:58:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KBwkRM001506 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:58:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KBtdd5014739 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:55:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KBtZ4g089351; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:55:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt11.ihug.co.nz (grunt11.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.54]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KBtW4g089241 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 05:55:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p138-nas1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.210.138] by grunt11.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BmtDN-0006ip-00; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:55:21 +1200 Message-ID: <00e301c46e50$67a14dc0$8ad2adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FBF7CC.30402@kabelfoon.nl><31681.63.119.218.167.1090258849.squirrel@webmail.io.com> <035201c46dc1$74ede540$ac399b04@HELENPINTO> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:54:51 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > To increase brain freeze, here's: > Whoopi- http://www.nandotimes.com/nt/images/oscars98/images/oscars42.jpeg > Judi- http://extratv.warnerbros.com/img/presentations/99_01_13a/judi.jpg > and Barbie- > http://www.barbiecollector.com/showcase/product.asp?type=&subtype=&product_id=1003486 I thought the (Whoopie) costume was a spoof of the one in Elilzabeth at the end when she "transforms" herself into an icon. Which in turn would have been inspired by the armada portrait http://www.geocities.com/mm_elizabethan1/E_qe.html michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 08:07:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KC7vRM001859 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:07:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KC66d5015357 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:06:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KC644g094949; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:06:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KC614g094846 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:06:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6KC6SC20889.; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:06:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:05:54 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:05:31 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lord Darnley, James VI and I's father, was also a Stuart, IIRC. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au 20/07/2004 12:07:29 >>> I suppose technically James VI/I should have taken his father's surname rather than his mother's, but as she was more important (being queen of Scotland and all) he took her name. Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 08:54:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KCswRM002467 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:54:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KCphd5017899 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:51:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KCpe4g019966; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:51:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KCpa4g019924 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:51:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a223.in-tch.com [66.62.107.23]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6KCpZN12711 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:51:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FD1648.3090809@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:55:36 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT: veggie vs. fruit References: <159.3a43037d.2e2dd465@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <159.3a43037d.2e2dd465@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Flax and nettles, both. And hemp, as well. And then there's the weirder fibers like kapok (closer to cotton than the above "bast" fibers). Anybody else remember when life preservers used to have kapok stuffing? --sue AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/19/2004 8:09:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, > sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com writes: > > >>Ummm...... let's see ......... about the only costume connection with fruit >>that I can think of, offhand, is Carmen Miranda's hat. >> >>>(I almost made it worse by writing "off the top of my head."!) >> >>You forgot cotton. Cotton threads are part of the endocarp of the >>fruit. >> > > > And of course flax is a stalk....I guess. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 08:55:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KCt9RM002470 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:55:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KCsSd5018055 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:54:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KCsR4g021571; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:54:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KCsP4g021552 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:54:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a223.in-tch.com [66.62.107.23]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6KCsON13798 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:54:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FD16F1.5070903@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:58:25 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT: veggie vs. fruit References: <99.49a27cfc.2e2dd497@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <99.49a27cfc.2e2dd497@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Most of them, I'd think, depending on just how inclusive your definition of vegetable is. Certainly, madder is from the root, and there are a whole bunch of natural dyes that come from flowers, but there are a lot, as well, that work with stems and leaves and such. Woad and the indigos are the ones that come most immediately to mind. --sue AlbertCat@aol.com wrote: > And how many vegetable dyes are really made with vegetables? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 09:22:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KDMfRM002637 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:22:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDKSd5019883 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:20:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDKP4g036812; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:20:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDKN4g036761 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:20:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a223.in-tch.com [66.62.107.23]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6KDKIN23592 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:20:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FD1D04.7000608@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:24:20 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit References: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Linguistics is one big fascinating puzzle to me! I'm often sorry I didn't get to study it in more depth in college. One of the things I always enjoyed about studying languages is the whole different "flavor" given to the world around me when working with something else besides English, which is my native tongue. Of course, that's what I also really, deeply enjoy about working with costuming and textiles. It's good to look at our world from different perspectives.... --sue Heather Rose Jones wrote: > At 1:14 PM -0400 7/19/04, Susan Farmer wrote: > >> > >> >>> So cucumbers and peppers are really fruits? >> >> >> Yep. So are beans, peas, corn and wheat, etc. > > > Mind you, this entire thread simply points out that we have two entirely > different sets of labels for edible plant parts which, confusingly, use > a lot of the same words. The botanist's terminology is based on plant > anatomy while the cook's terminology is based on cultural patterns of > culinary usage. Neither one is really more "correct" than the other, > and using either in the opposite context will cause miscommunication. > > I always rather liked using the problem as an exercise for my students > when studying conceptual categories in cognitive linguistics. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 09:26:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KDQFRM002656 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:26:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDPYd5020274 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:25:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDPX4g039865; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:25:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDPU4g039848 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:25:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a223.in-tch.com [66.62.107.23]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6KDPTN25525 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:25:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FD1E3A.5090907@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:29:30 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit References: <200407200411.i6K4BQT2053421@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407200411.i6K4BQT2053421@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ahhhh! So they're both fruit and seed, since they can't be separated? How fascinating! All grains are not grasses, are they? ISTR something "different" about wild rice, say, as opposed to regular rices. And what about buckwheat, which I don't think is a wheat at all? Obligatory costume content: Has anyone on the list ever made their own "straw" hats? what variety of straw did you find worked the best? I'm looking at my new straw hat (one of those low, flat ones suitable for either 18th c. stuff or 16th c. Flemish), and realizing that it wouldn't be *that* difficult to make..... --sue Susan Farmer wrote: > First off, grasses are just *wierd* They have their own floral structure > and terminology. The part of a corn plant that becomes the ear is really > an inflorescence. Each kernal is an individual ovary with its own stigma > and style -- that's what the silk is. (Wheat, also being a grass, is > similar.) In the case of corn and wheat, the individual fruits are called > caryopsis in which the fruit wall is fused to the seed. > > Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 09:43:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KDhpRM002990 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:43:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDfUd5021402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:41:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDfN4g049534; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:41:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6KDfK4g049439 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:41:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCuPwgwYVR7sOPmrOBgNzZdoVYPXP7G5ocg== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J2Y3K9UX; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 06:40:49 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:05:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Message-ID: <20040720.080518.-152505493.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-7,10-12 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:05:31 +0100 "Kate M Bunting" writes: > Lord Darnley, James VI and I's father, was also a Stuart, IIRC. > > Kate Bunting > Library, University of Derby That's because Lord Darnley and Mary QoS were cousins....although the English branch spelled it 'Stewart' most of the time.....as much as there was any consistency in Elizabethan spelling..... Karen ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 09:45:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KDjFRM003008 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:45:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDiYd5021630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:44:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDiU4g051450; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:44:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDiQ4g051362 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:44:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.45.10fb1734 (17526) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:44:17 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <45.10fb1734.2e2e7bb1@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:44:17 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/20/2004 5:19:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, Teddy@mdx.ac.uk writes: > Be careful! I once did this while leaving a party with friends. Two of > them were decidedly "merry" and decided to join in, their combined > efforts made the lift grind to a halt between floors I don't even want to know what dance you guys were doing. It wasn't a soft shoe I'll bet. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 10:01:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KE1NRM003304 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:01:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDx0d5023594 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:59:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDww4g060496; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:58:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KDvO4g059401 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:57:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be8a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.138]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 694335EE028 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:57:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000b01c46e61$84628a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407191714.i6JHEAhu047822@sabre.goldsword.com> <40FD1D04.7000608@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:57:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes you are right, but there also are problems about it. All my library is mostly english and costume related i know all the technical terms and words, but how about danish? I dont know 1/2 of it what it is called in danish, and that is so bothering for me. Cartridge pleating for instance, i have not a clue what that is called in danish. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Clemenger" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit > Linguistics is one big fascinating puzzle to me! I'm often sorry I > didn't get to study it in more depth in college. > One of the things I always enjoyed about studying languages is the whole > different "flavor" given to the world around me when working with > something else besides English, which is my native tongue. Of course, > that's what I also really, deeply enjoy about working with costuming and > textiles. It's good to look at our world from different perspectives.... > --sue > > Heather Rose Jones wrote: > > > At 1:14 PM -0400 7/19/04, Susan Farmer wrote: > > > >> > > >> > >>> So cucumbers and peppers are really fruits? > >> > >> > >> Yep. So are beans, peas, corn and wheat, etc. > > > > > > Mind you, this entire thread simply points out that we have two entirely > > different sets of labels for edible plant parts which, confusingly, use > > a lot of the same words. The botanist's terminology is based on plant > > anatomy while the cook's terminology is based on cultural patterns of > > culinary usage. Neither one is really more "correct" than the other, > > and using either in the opposite context will cause miscommunication. > > > > I always rather liked using the problem as an exercise for my students > > when studying conceptual categories in cognitive linguistics. > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 12:12:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KGCWRM006215 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:12:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KG7Sd5006682 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:07:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KG7J4g059704; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:07:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f44.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.44]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KG7D4g059554 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:07:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:07:08 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:07:07 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: languages was: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:07:07 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2004 16:07:08.0055 (UTC) FILETIME=[9B644270:01C46E73] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >All my library is mostly english and costume related i know all the >technical terms and words, but how about danish? >I dont know 1/2 of it what it is called in danish, and that is so bothering >for me. Cartridge pleating for instance, i have not a clue what that is >called in danish. I have the same problem with French. Worse, most patterns I work with come from the U.S. and are in inches, but the official system here is metric (that's also what I learned in school). I still think a standard seam is at 5/8, and a narrow one at 3/8, and 1/2 on some crafts patterns, but my machine is in millimeters. And there are some weird things too: I don't remember what a French seam is in French, but IIRC it's NOT "couture française", even if a lot of ppl will still know what you mean. Most patterns from the big companies are translated from English to French, so I still have to refer to the English translation once in a while because the French is not making any sense. I asked for the English manual for my sewing machine because I was afraid of possible mistakes in translation, and I found at least one. And another problem too: doing so much historical costuming, I learned some techniques that have nothing to with modern sewing techniques. It's very weird when you're trying to follow a modern pattern, because you have to be very careful to read everything and follow exactly. But that's got nothing to do with the language ;-) _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 12:41:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KGfVRM007064 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:41:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGekd5010005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:40:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGeg4g087642; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:40:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGeW4g087486 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:40:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6KHCg5c058590 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:12:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6KHCgvA058589 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:12:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407201712.i6KHCgvA058589@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <0a3e01c46e41$ebcd5ad0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] contrasting gores X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Is there any evidence for gores out of contrasting fabric? I saw a lady with such a gown on at an SCA event recently, and I was curious. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 12:47:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KGlNRM007100 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:47:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGkHd5010618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:46:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGk84g092091; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:46:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGk04g092010 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:46:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6KHI85c058673 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:18:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6KHI81n058672 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:18:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407201718.i6KHI81n058672@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <40FD16F1.5070903@in-tch.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] "vegetable" dyes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO While we're talking about plant based dyes -- if you had to pick the top (or most important) 5 or 10 -- which would you pick? Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 12:48:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KGmkRM007112 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:48:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGkid5010675 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:46:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGkh4g092575; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:46:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGkb4g092491 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:46:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6KHIk5c058679 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:18:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6KHIkgK058678 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:18:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407201718.i6KHIkgK058678@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT: veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <40FD1648.3090809@in-tch.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Flax and nettles, both. And hemp, as well. > And then there's the weirder fibers like kapok (closer to cotton than > the above "bast" fibers). Anybody else remember when life preservers > used to have kapok stuffing? Me! (waves hand) Jerusha (the Old Lady Grad Student .....) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 12:52:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KGqdRM007140 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:52:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGohd5011058 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:50:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGog4g096111; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:50:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from lioness.futureautomation.com (c-67-161-93-223.client.comcast.net [67.161.93.223]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KGob4h095965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:50:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from colleen.mcdonald@comcast.net) Received: from wdncognos (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lioness.futureautomation.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id i6KGoTH5012297 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:50:29 -0700 Message-ID: <017001c46e79$98e59f20$1b03010a@mackie.com> From: "Colleen McDonald" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407201712.i6KHCgvA058589@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:49:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Is there any evidence for gores out of contrasting fabric? I saw a lady > with such a gown on at an SCA event recently, and I was curious. > > Jerusha The only picture that I have seen depicting contrasting gores was a late 14th century Italian painting of St. D..... oh darn! I can't remember the saint's name - Dormitia? That doesn't sound right, and of course, the picture's at home and I'm at work. The dress is red and the gores appear to be gold or gilded. Other than that one, I can't recall seeing this anywhere else. Colleen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 13:13:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KHDqRM007252 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:13:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHAjd5013356 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:10:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHAf4g012964; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:10:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHAX4g012844 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:10:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6KHgh5c058872 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:42:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6KHghSu058871 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:42:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407201742.i6KHghSu058871@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <40FD1E3A.5090907@in-tch.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > ahhhh! So they're both fruit and seed, since they can't be separated? > How fascinating! The study of fruits in and of itself is *very* interesting. There's a whole book about Fruit types! This is a web site from Radford's Vascular Plant Systematics http://www.ibiblio.org/botnet/glossary/a_xi.html There's also a dichotomous key to common fruit types that I have up at http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Botany/FruitTypeKey.txt it's very poorly formatted and I need to fix it -- right now, it's just a text file. > All grains are not grasses, are they? ISTR something "different" about > wild rice, say, as opposed to regular rices. And what about buckwheat, > which I don't think is a wheat at all? Yep. 70% of the world's food comes from the family Poaceae (the grasses). All grains are grasses -- at least I'm pretty sure. I can't think of anything else that has that type of fruit. True rice is Oryza sativa, wheat Tricitum aestivum, barley Hordeum vulgare, oats Avena sativa, sorghum Sorghum bicolor, millet Pennisetum americanum, corn Zea Mays, and sugarcane Saccharum officinale. There are a bunch of things called buckwheat in the genus Eriogonum (check out http://plants.usda.gov -- you can search on common name or scientific name -- cool stuff!) and Wild Rice turns up in the genus Ziziana. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 13:38:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KHc2RM008296 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:38:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHa4d5016016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:36:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHa34g034398; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:36:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHZR4g033937 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:35:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kat@grendal.rain.com) Received: from KATHOUSE (ip56.129.du.eli.iinet.com [67.136.129.56]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41B06E49A for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:35:21 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:35:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: Bananas, and costume too (was: Veg vs. fruit) Message-ID: <40FCF56F.16799.880BA10@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >From: Robin Netherton > >Hey Marc -- do you know if anything has come yet of research on the > >400 leather shoes found at that site? > > Nope. The stuff I was studying there was from the test pits that went > in before the full size digs . We missed the major stuff by a few > weeks, and when we got there the huge group had gone into the freezer. > So all we got was about 50 boxes of shoe remains and leather scraps. > Even so, there were some surprises and some really educational things > (c1475-1525 mostly, based on shoe technology and styles). Based on > those, there should be some seriously cool stuff in the major group of > shoes, although archaelogical publication can take forever. Have you thought of going to the MOL itself for another private appointment? I would love to hear more about the c1475-1525 information! My primary interest period is 1485-1550.) As it turned out, I happened to be there for a private appointment the day that they got their first finds from those digs. I thought that they were talking about the Roman sarcophagus (which was opened the day I was there) but some of the things I overheard didn't make sense with that. I about died when I got home and found out what they *had* been talking about. If I had only known, I could have picked their brains a bit about shoes. (As it was, they probably didn't think to mention it to me since I was there to look at headdress bits, not shoes. However, if they had known, I'm sure my person would have told me based on the kind of things they were already telling me.) Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 13:39:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KHdNRM008402 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:39:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHaKd5016044 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:36:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHaJ4g034626; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:36:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHZR4g033942 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:35:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kat@grendal.rain.com) Received: from KATHOUSE (ip56.129.du.eli.iinet.com [67.136.129.56]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A0696E541 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:35:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: OT: veggie vs. fruit Message-ID: <40FCF56F.24322.880BBC6@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <40FD1648.3090809@in-tch.com> References: <159.3a43037d.2e2dd465@aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Flax and nettles, both. And hemp, as well. > And then there's the weirder fibers like kapok (closer to cotton than > the above "bast" fibers). Anybody else remember when life preservers > used to have kapok stuffing? --sue Remember Kapok stuffed life preservers? I still *have* one. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 13:48:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KHmARM008578 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:48:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHlEd5017012 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:47:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHl84g043577; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:47:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KHl34g043475 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:47:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6KIJ95c059305 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:19:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6KIJ6n9059304 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:19:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407201819.i6KIJ6n9059304@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <017001c46e79$98e59f20$1b03010a@mackie.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Is there any evidence for gores out of contrasting fabric? I saw a lady > > with such a gown on at an SCA event recently, and I was curious. > > > > Jerusha > > The only picture that I have seen depicting contrasting gores was a late > 14th century Italian painting of St. D..... oh darn! I can't remember the > saint's name - Dormitia? That doesn't sound right, and of course, the > picture's at home and I'm at work. The dress is red and the gores appear to > be gold or gilded. I'd love to see it -- wonder if it's online anywhere. I know when I first saw some of the M. Francois illuminations from Augustine's City of God we were trying to figure out if they were gores or a split overskirt. http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_DevilInstigation.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortune.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_Intercession.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg In some of these, you really can't tell; but in others, the lay of the layers of fabric is different so it's "obvious" that one is split overskirt. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 14:08:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KI8XRM009094 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:08:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KI5Bd5019120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:05:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KI4Q4g058025; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:04:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fed1rmmtao02.cox.net (fed1rmmtao02.cox.net [68.230.241.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KI4H4g057881 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:04:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mudsleidi@cox.net) Received: from smtp.west.cox.net ([172.18.180.53]) by fed1rmmtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02.01 201-2131-111-104-103-20040709) with SMTP id <20040720180410.CGHQ9745.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:04:10 -0400 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.15 (webedge20-101-1103-20040528) From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] "vegetable" dyes Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:04:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040720180410.CGHQ9745.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I used mainly plant-based dyes, and if we're talking about modern plants as well (meaning plants that may not have been used in Europe prior to the last few centuries) the most important to me are: Logwood Madder Fustic Cochineal Indigo Brazilwood Safflower Cutch And I have to throw henna in there too, as I wouldn't be a redhead without it! Cheers, Heidi ============================================================ From: Susan Farmer Date: 2004/07/20 Tue PM 01:18:08 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] "vegetable" dyes While we're talking about plant based dyes -- if you had to pick the top (or most important) 5 or 10 -- which would you pick? Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ============================================================ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 14:25:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KIP5RM009307 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:25:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KINad5020998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:23:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KINa4g073321; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:23:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6KINW4g073271 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:23:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-2012); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:23:31 -0700 Received: from unknown (HELO wm1.mc.surewest.net) (66.60.128.58) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:23:16 -0700 Received: from 205.225.207.97 (SquirrelMail authenticated user joanmj@surewest.net) by webmail.surewest.net with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <53079.205.225.207.97.1090347796.squirrel@webmail.surewest.net> In-Reply-To: <20040720180410.CGHQ9745.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> References: <20040720180410.CGHQ9745.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] "vegetable" dyes From: joanmj@surewest.net To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oops! Cochineal is an insect (but it lives on prickly pear cactus). Joan Jurancich spinner, weaver, and sometime dyer > I used mainly plant-based dyes, and if we're talking about modern plants > as well (meaning plants that may not have been used in Europe prior to the > last few centuries) the most important to me are: > > Logwood > Madder > Fustic > Cochineal > Indigo > Brazilwood > Safflower > Cutch > > And I have to throw henna in there too, as I wouldn't be a redhead without > it! > > Cheers, > Heidi > ============================================================ > From: Susan Farmer > Date: 2004/07/20 Tue PM 01:18:08 EDT > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: [h-cost] "vegetable" dyes > > While we're talking about plant based dyes -- if you had to pick > the top (or most important) 5 or 10 -- which would you pick? > > Jerusha > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ============================================================ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 14:25:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KIPFRM009311 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:25:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KILMd5020791 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:21:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KILJ4g071510; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:21:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KILD4g071385 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:21:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 0086E18004D1 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:21:08 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.31) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 20 Jul 2004 18:19:10 -0000 Received: by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C6434E5BC8; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:21:07 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:21:07 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:21:07 +0000 Subject: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040720182107.C6434E5BC8@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks for posting those pictures Jerusha. I am fascinated by the apparently princess seam in: http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg It is the woman seen from the back, directly to the right of the clerical type figure on the left. She has a russety coloured headdress. I realize that it can be difficult to use illuminations for fine details, but it is another log on the princess seam fire, I mean debate... Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > > Is there any evidence for gores out of contrasting fabric? I saw a lady > > with such a gown on at an SCA event recently, and I was curious. > > > > Jerusha > > The only picture that I have seen depicting contrasting gores was a late > 14th century Italian painting of St. D..... oh darn! I can't remember the > saint's name - Dormitia? That doesn't sound right, and of course, the > picture's at home and I'm at work. The dress is red and the gores appear to > be gold or gilded. I'd love to see it -- wonder if it's online anywhere. I know when I first saw some of the M. Francois illuminations from Augustine's City of God we were trying to figure out if they were gores or a split overskirt. http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_DevilInstigation.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortune.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_Intercession.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg In some of these, you really can't tell; but in others, the lay of the layers of fabric is different so it's "obvious" that one is split overskirt. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 14:26:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KIQnRM009349 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:26:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIPmd5021267 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:25:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIPl4g075043; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:25:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f11.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.61]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIPi4g074950 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:25:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:25:38 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:25:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:25:38 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2004 18:25:38.0768 (UTC) FILETIME=[F4F66D00:01C46E86] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: Bananas, and costume too (was: Veg vs. fruit) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: kat@grendal.rain.com >Have you thought of going to the MOL itself for another private >appointment? I would love to hear more about the c1475-1525 >information! My primary interest period is 1485-1550.) Oh, absolutely - I'd love to (there are are few things I like doing more than working with artifacts). However, there's this little -funding- issue, you see ... :) >...think to mention it to me since I was there to look at headdress >bits, not shoes. However, if they had known, I'm sure my person would >have told me based on the kind of things they were already telling >me.) I'm sure. They have some really great people there. Marc _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 14:27:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KIR0RM009354 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:27:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIQOd5021314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:26:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIQN4g075530; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:26:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIQ74g075306 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:26:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6KIMb8Z023166 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:22:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] contrasting gores Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:27:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200407201712.i6KHCgvA058589@sabre.goldsword.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO AFAIK, it's a completely SCA invention. There is evidence for entire panels being a different color (a la the gray-n-black dress in La Pieta) but other than one iffy religious example that I can think of, nothing for contrasting gores. Talia > Is there any evidence for gores out of contrasting fabric? I saw a lady > with such a gown on at an SCA event recently, and I was curious. > > Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 14:48:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KImjRM009819 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:48:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIk9d5023159 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:46:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIjw4g091790; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:45:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIju4g091675 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:45:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 3E8D11800824 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:45:49 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.35) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 20 Jul 2004 18:43:50 -0000 Received: by ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3773B4F3D8; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:45:46 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:45:46 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:45:46 +0000 X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040720184546.3773B4F3D8@ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] MOL rumour X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings, I thought I would pass on the latest *rumour* about the MOL, apparently they have lost approx. 75% of their accession records lately due to a computer failure. The files weren't backed up and the paper copies are gone... If this is the case, doesn't that make you want to cry? Cheers, Danielle -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 14:57:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KIvpRM010211 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:57:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIted5024079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:55:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KItZ4g099550; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:55:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KItR4g099446 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:55:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6KJRV5c059934 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:27:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6KJRVBo059933 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:27:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407201927.i6KJRVBo059933@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <20040720182107.C6434E5BC8@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Thanks for posting those pictures Jerusha. I am fascinated by the apparently princess seam in: > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg > > It is the woman seen from the back, directly to the right of the clerical type figure on the left. She has a russety coloured headdress. > > I realize that it can be difficult to use illuminations for fine details, but it is another log on the princess seam fire, I mean debate... Yeah, but when you consider that in that particular image you can see what are folds by the way he uses hi-lite and shadow. You can also see the inset sleeve on the woman in red in the front in the white turban, and you can see a side seam in the rightmost gentleman (beside the Abbot/Priest) praying. There are a few princess seams in this fellow's illuminations. Let me get the edits on this paper finished, and I'll see what I can find to post links too ... Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 15:03:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KJ3KRM010326 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:03:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KJ0Td5024489 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:00:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KJ0S4g003535; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:00:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53008.mail.yahoo.com (web53008.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.198]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6KJ0N4g003404 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:00:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from aureliarufinia@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040720190018.33023.qmail@web53008.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [18.152.7.245] by web53008.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:00:18 PDT Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:00:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Aurelia Rufinia To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200406201801.i5KI1bIB033951@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Byzantine questions X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Does anyone here do Byzantine? I have some questions mainly regarding superhumerals. Gratia, Aurelia __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 15:03:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KJ3MRM010329 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:03:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KJ2Nd5024635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:02:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KJ2M4g005176; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:02:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail11.mdx.safepages.com (mail11.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KJ1j4g004584 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:01:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail11.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id C74CBA0795; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:01:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust237.tnt1.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.148.237]) by mail11.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D7AE8A0633 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:01:13 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <00f401c46e8c$3ca2de40$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040720182107.C6434E5BC8@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:03:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6KJ3MRM010329 Status: RO I've been looking at this and similar images for a while--in the mid 15thC, there are several depictions, both front and back, of something that looks kind of like a modern princess seam, but isn't really, since the front-side seam passes several inches to the outside of the point of the bust. Long story short, since I don't have time to get into it, there are fitted multi-panel dresses (I've seen up to 14 panels) in this general time frame, though they're not the most common form--the 4-panel is still most commonly depicted when seams are shown. However, from looking at the illuminations by this one specific master, I think he's depicting something different; the princessish seam seems to be only on the back, while the front of the same gown is made like the more familiar fitted 4-panel gown. If you've ever fitted a self-supporting 4-panel, you'll know why this would be a handy way to seam it! It's pretty much impossible to get a fit that is both smooth and tight at the back/side waist; you always get a few subtle wrinkles at best, and lots of obvious wrinkles at worst, unless you raise the waist dramatically to allow a much gentler waist curve, hence losing that tight-waisted look. An extra seam fixes this fitting problem perfectly, and makes that odd sort of pointed grand aisette sleeve (seen on some of the other gowns in these illuminations) much easier and more practical to insert, since the princessish seam ends at the point of the sleeve head. if I remember right, these illuminations date to 1475-80--there's a whole bunch by this artist, Maître François, (like 426 images) available at: http://www.kb.nl/kb/manuscripts/search/index.html (I can't link directly, so: click on the 'Index' button beside 'Miniaturist,' then click on 'M' on the popup window and scroll to the very bottom--it's not in proper alphabetical order--and click on Maître François, then hit search back on the main page). This date means that these garments aren't a forerunner of the mid 15thC princessish seams, since those first appear ~25 or more years earlier. -E ----- Original Message ----- From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:21 PM Subject: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores > Thanks for posting those pictures Jerusha. I am fascinated by the apparently princess seam in: > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg > > It is the woman seen from the back, directly to the right of the clerical type figure on the left. She has a russety coloured headdress. > > I realize that it can be difficult to use illuminations for fine details, but it is another log on the princess seam fire, I mean debate... > > Cheers, > Danielle _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 15:14:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KJE4RM010469 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:14:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIx8d5024388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:59:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIx34g002387; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:59:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fed1rmmtao02.cox.net (fed1rmmtao02.cox.net [68.230.241.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KIwx4g002235 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:58:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mudsleidi@cox.net) Received: from smtp.west.cox.net ([172.18.180.53]) by fed1rmmtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02.01 201-2131-111-104-103-20040709) with SMTP id <20040720185851.DCYV9745.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:58:51 -0400 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.15 (webedge20-101-1103-20040528) From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] "vegetable" dyes Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:58:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040720185851.DCYV9745.fed1rmmtao02.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ::smacks head:: Don't you hate when you do silly things like that on international forums? Heidi ============================================================ From: joanmj@surewest.net Date: 2004/07/20 Tue PM 02:23:16 EDT To: "Historical Costume" Subject: Re: [h-cost] "vegetable" dyes Oops! Cochineal is an insect (but it lives on prickly pear cactus). Joan Jurancich spinner, weaver, and sometime dyer > I used mainly plant-based dyes, and if we're talking about modern plants > as well (meaning plants that may not have been used in Europe prior to the > last few centuries) the most important to me are: > > Logwood > Madder > Fustic > Cochineal > Indigo > Brazilwood > Safflower > Cutch > > And I have to throw henna in there too, as I wouldn't be a redhead without > it! > > Cheers, > Heidi > ============================================================ > From: Susan Farmer > Date: 2004/07/20 Tue PM 01:18:08 EDT > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: [h-cost] "vegetable" dyes > > While we're talking about plant based dyes -- if you had to pick > the top (or most important) 5 or 10 -- which would you pick? > > Jerusha > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ============================================================ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ============================================================ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 15:54:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KJsoRM010907 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:54:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KJqZd5029291 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:52:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KJqP4g045928; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:52:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KJqM4g045857 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:52:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kbaird@cableone.net) Received: from kimathlon (unverified [24.119.35.202]) by smail2.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 9814130 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:38:18 -0700 From: "kim baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] MOL rumour Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:52:42 -0500 Message-ID: <000201c46e93$1ec91900$6601a8c0@kimathlon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <20040720184546.3773B4F3D8@ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't believe it! I'm sure they had backup. Unless something happened to that as well. . . -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Danielle Nunn-Weinberg Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 1:46 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] MOL rumour Greetings, I thought I would pass on the latest *rumour* about the MOL, apparently they have lost approx. 75% of their accession records lately due to a computer failure. The files weren't backed up and the paper copies are gone... If this is the case, doesn't that make you want to cry? Cheers, Danielle -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default .asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 16:10:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KKAQRM011095 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:10:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KK73d5000642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:07:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KK6x4g057773; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:06:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KK6v4g057748 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:06:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B48F2775E for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:06:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p321.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.215.67]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E60CC5E7 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:06:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:07:08 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200407201819.i6KIJ6n9059304@sabre.goldsword.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO we were trying to figure out if they were gores or a split overskirt. (A)This looks like a side split in the skirt. http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_DevilInstigation.jp g (A) Split skirts. Besides the gray, the pink also has a princess seam. http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg (A) Split skirt. Felicite -either she has a matching blue sideless on or she has princess seams. http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortune.jp g (A) split http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_Intercession.jpg (A) Split. What is intriguing with this picture is the hems. It looks like lightly gathered ruffles. The white bottomed blue skirt, is the white fur or a pleated ruffle? http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 16:22:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KKMmRM011437 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:22:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KKKHd5001954 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:20:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KKKDaP068620; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:20:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KKK7aQ068551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:20:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6KKHjtY027247 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:17:45 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40FD7E75.5060707@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:20:05 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO otsisto wrote: > (A) Split. What is intriguing with this picture is the hems. It looks like > lightly gathered ruffles. The white bottomed blue skirt, is the white fur or > a pleated ruffle? > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall (others have argued that those things can't be ruffles, but they seem to behave just like them.) I think the white is either a fur edge or a fur ruffle -- there's an odd thought! -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 16:23:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KKNkRM011447 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:23:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KKKjd5002009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:20:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KKKiaP068984; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:20:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KKKRaP068794 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:20:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6KKqc5c060543 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:52:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6KKqcbe060542 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:52:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407202052.i6KKqcbe060542@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <200407201927.i6KJRVBo059933@sabre.goldsword.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Thanks for posting those pictures Jerusha. I am fascinated by the apparently princess seam in: > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg > > > > It is the woman seen from the back, directly to the right of the clerical type figure on the left. She has a russety coloured headdress. > > > > I realize that it can be difficult to use illuminations for fine details, but it is another log on the princess seam fire, I mean debate... > > Yeah, but when you consider that in that particular image you can see what > are folds by the way he uses hi-lite and shadow. You can also see the > inset sleeve on the woman in red in the front in the white turban, and > you can see a side seam in the rightmost gentleman (beside the Abbot/Priest) > praying. There are a few princess seams in this fellow's illuminations. > Let me get the edits on this paper finished, and I'll see what I can > find to post links too ... Everybody's favorite -- she who nurses a child from a breast stuck up in her armpit. http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/fouquet_Madonna.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_MysteriesCybele.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_OfLuxuryDetail.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_SuicideSempronia.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_VolumniaCoriolanus.jpg stress lines on woman in grey with red truncated henin http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_Voluptas.jpg stress lines on the woman in brown with the truncated henin; line on woman in brown with white head-wrap. depending on your monitor, you *may* be able to see a line, but the folds in the skirt appear to show gores/seams consistent with princess seams http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_DemonsCrop.jpg and I don't know if these are "mistakes" on the part of the illuminator or just sideless surcoats that are the same color as the undergown, or if this is just "decorative seaming" or *what* is going on! http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/flemishMielot_SalvationMirror.jpg It's the woman in black -- depending on your monitor, you may or may not be able to see. I'm going to rescan this one at some point. http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortune.jpg woman in blue with red mantle http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/flemishRambures_WeddingParty0.jpg woman in blue with red mantle and gold trim along the edge/seam Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 16:38:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KKcURM012151 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:38:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KKa4YF001010 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:36:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KKa0aP080982; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:36:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f23.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.73]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KKZwaP080891 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:35:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:35:51 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:35:51 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:35:51 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jul 2004 20:35:51.0586 (UTC) FILETIME=[25C3D820:01C46E99] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" >Thanks for posting those pictures Jerusha. I am fascinated by the >apparently princess seam in: >http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg >It is the woman seen from the back, directly to the right of the clerical >type figure on the left. She has a russety coloured headdress. >I realize that it can be difficult to use illuminations for fine details, >but it is another log on the princess seam fire, I mean debate... I think it's definately easy to see what we expect. I took a look at it and my thought was that it was very similar to the Moy back design :) Marc _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 19:42:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KNgtRM014158 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:42:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KNdJYF019789 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:39:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KNd5aP024935; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:39:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KNd3aP024860 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:39:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 4CEA5180199E for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:38:58 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.31) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 20 Jul 2004 23:37:00 -0000 Received: by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E225DE5BC8; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:38:57 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:38:57 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:38:57 +0000 Subject: RE: [h-cost] MOL rumour X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040720233857.E225DE5BC8@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Like I said, this is just what I heard but apparently, when they got it all into the computer, they threw out the paper (so the space could be devoted to artifacts instead). Personally, I find it hard to believe that the wouldn't have backed it up but, who knows with a (relatively) new system? If anyone is planning to go there soon, I would be curious to know if it is true... Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > I don't believe it! I'm sure they had backup. Unless something happened > to that as well. . . > > -----Original Message----- > Greetings, > > I thought I would pass on the latest *rumour* about the MOL, apparently > they have lost approx. 75% of their accession records lately due to a > computer failure. The files weren't backed up and the paper copies are > gone... If this is the case, doesn't that make you want to cry? > > Cheers, > Danielle > -- > _______________________________________________ > Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages > http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default > .asp?SRC=lycos10 > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 19:50:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KNoMRM014513 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:50:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KNnRYF020737 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:49:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KNnPaP031812; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:49:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KNnKaQ031640 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:49:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.171]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i6KNrvUr028940; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:53:59 +1000 Message-ID: <0c2f01c46eb3$4ebfa3c0$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000201c46e93$1ec91900$6601a8c0@kimathlon> Subject: Re: [h-cost] MOL rumour Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:43:02 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My husband's work nearly lost 2 years of their customs records because the backup was done incorrectly. They were very lucky that my husband was able to drag the data kicking and screaming out of the tape that had not had its indexing done correctly. It took nearly a week, at AUS$20,000 customs late fee/day. He also found during a subsequent full system audit that other important system only had the system backed up, not the data, which is another possible problem with backups. Are the senior management doing something about getting a better backup system now? Maybe, 'depending on how much it costs'! Some people never learn. The person who was in charge of system backups had left under a harrassment cloud the week before, so he was a very, very lucky man indeed! I think Wayne would have had him run the gauntlet for punishment. If the MoL needs anyone to help retrieve apparently lost data, Wayne would be their man! All they'd need to do is pay for return tickets SYD-LHR (I'd have to go too, of course), let us photograph in their museum!!!!!, and, of course, a copy of the data he finds. Not too much of a price, surely? Glenda. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kim baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:52 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] MOL rumour > I don't believe it! I'm sure they had backup. Unless something happened > to that as well. . . > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 19:55:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6KNtERM014539 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:55:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KNrUYF021067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:53:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KNrSaP034302; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:53:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from thrednedlestrete.com (mail02.enterhost.com [69.93.13.234]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6KNrNaP034218 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:53:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:53:13 -0500 Message-Id: <200407201853.AA88473778@thrednedlestrete.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores X-Mailer: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6KNrNaP034218 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Moy back design? Lisa Sinervo ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Marc Carlson" Reply-To: Historical Costume Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:35:51 -0500 >>From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" >>Thanks for posting those pictures Jerusha. I am fascinated by the >>apparently princess seam in: >>http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg >>It is the woman seen from the back, directly to the right of the clerical >>type figure on the left. She has a russety coloured headdress. >>I realize that it can be difficult to use illuminations for fine details, >>but it is another log on the princess seam fire, I mean debate... > >I think it's definately easy to see what we expect. I took a look at it and >my thought was that it was very similar to the Moy back design :) > >Marc > >_________________________________________________________________ >Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® >Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 20:28:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L0SXRM015034 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:28:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L0KRYF023094 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L0KOaP051013; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:20:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L0KMaP050982 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:20:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07862 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:24:45 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:24:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit In-Reply-To: <000b01c46e61$84628a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Yes you are right, but there also are problems about it. All my > library is mostly english and costume related i know all the technical > terms and words, but how about danish? I dont know 1/2 of it what it > is called in danish, and that is so bothering for me. Cartridge > pleating for instance, i have not a clue what that is called in > danish. It might be that there is no term. A friend of mine who is bilingual English-Danish and also a costume scholar (her clothing history degree is from Copenhagen) has told me that she runs into this problem working with Danish costume researchers. Sometimes she will want to ask a technical question and realize there is no equivalent term in Danish for the sewing technique or fabric characteristic she is trying to discuss. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 20:29:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L0T6RM015047 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:29:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L0L3YF023142 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:21:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L0L2aP051388; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:21:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L0KoaP051218 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:20:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from auntiegert@att.net) Received: from daveterri (133.los-angeles-14rh16rt-15rh15rt.ca.dial-access.att.net[12.72.54.133]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc12) with SMTP id <20040721002030112006dl8fe>; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:20:31 +0000 From: "Terri Casey" To: Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:24:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <200407202021.i6KKLFaQ069436@net.indra.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE:contrasting gores X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO _Regarding contrasting gores....there is a skirt in the German "Single leaf Woodcuts" where the bottom 2/3 of it has godets (not exactly a gore, I know) of contrasting fabric. The skirt is of a plain weave and the godets are of a figured fabric. Hard to tell in a black and white woodcut what the fabric is. All my books are packed away still (bought a house) but as soon as I unpack the SLWC I will scan it to the list. Terri _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 20:46:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L0k1RM015317 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:46:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L0aaYF024290 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:36:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L0aZaP060730; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:36:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L0aVaP060682 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:36:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07997 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:40:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:40:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <200407201712.i6KHCgvA058589@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > Is there any evidence for gores out of contrasting fabric? I saw a > lady with such a gown on at an SCA event recently, and I was curious. This question seems to come up about once a year or so, and often from someone who "saw it done in the SCA." People seem to really really want these to be medieval, but as far as I know, they're just not in the visual vocabulary, at least not for Western Europe. (I do not speak for Italy or Spain!) Speaking philosophically: I think there was a stronger aesthetic barrier between "structural" and "decorative" than much of the costume literature assumes. Just because you have a seam in X place doesn't mean you would consider that a natural place to set off with highlighting, trim, contrasting color, whatever. If a gore was considered simply a means of widening a piece of fabric, it's not an inevitable step to want to set it off as being separate. It's probably more sensible to class gore seams along with the many other structural seams and piecings you find in medieval clothing (underarm gussets, for instance). In a similar vein, I've also found that some re-enactors / costumers / modern costume book writers will state quite authoritatively that it was a "really medieval thing to do" to decorate buttonholes or to put trim around laced body openings, on the same principle of making the structural components into decorative elements. That doesn't seem to be a common thing in the sources or extant garments, though; I can't think of any examples offhand, and if it occurred at all it certainly wasn't typical. In fact, medieval illuminators seem to treat laced openings as invisible when they are closed, so that would argue against attempts to turn them into decorative features. I can also think of archaeology reports on extant garments that describe stitching on particular seams as "decorative," apparently based on the idea that any stitching that is visible from the outside must be done "for pretty." In the examples I can think of -- for instance, some of the Greenland garments -- the "decorative" stitiching sure looks to me like structural reinforcement, repair, or even the result of fitting done by hand while the garment is on the wearer's body. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:10:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L1AIRM015768 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:10:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L11uYF026278 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:01:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L11raP075673; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:01:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L11naP075642 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:01:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08172 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:06:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:06:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <20040720182107.C6434E5BC8@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote: > I realize that it can be difficult to use illuminations for fine > details, but it is another log on the princess seam fire, I mean > debate... Has there really been any debate about the existence of curved-over-the-bust-region seams post-1450? Examples are not hard to find. To my knowledge, the "debate" has always focused on whether princess seams were used for the "cotehardie" style, meaning the fitted dresses of, say, 1340-1420. I don't see any reason to assume the presence of curved-over-the-bust seams in that time frame in Western Europe for the purpose of a supportive fitted underdress, and experimentation shows that this styling does not produce the silhouette seen in artwork from that time anyway. But by the time you reach mid-15th century, there are several silhouettes in women's fashion, and several concurrent constructions and techniques for different styles of fitted dresses. Waist seams are also evident in some depictions of dresses at this time, side by side with other dresses that do not use waist seams (and with corresponding changes in silhouette). You've got a lot of variation and choice in the last half of the 1400s! Also note my language above; I don't like to use the term "princess seam" to mean any kind of seam in this position. Not all seams that curve over the bust region have the same structural effect as a princess seam in a modern pattern, which is built to shape a dress around a modern foundation garment. It's a common mistake, though, for someone to see a curved side-bust seam in a source (such as the Fouquet Madonna) and say, "Oh, princess seams are period," and then reach for the nearest modern princess pattern. They're not the same thing, even though both have a curve in the bust region. Modern princess seams are not designed to be supportive, and for women with any bust weight, I've seen that modern princess patterns do a rather half-assed job of support unless you make some serious alterations. However, it's possible to create seams that curve around the bust area for structural purposes; the 15th c. bust-area-curve seams often seem to be placed further out to the side and to have a gentler curve, meaning that the design is providing some pressure to the side and base of the bust, not simply being arranged around a bust that is already held in place. In fact, I think the placement and degree of the bust curve is much more important an element in the structural effect of the seam than the issue of whether the top goes into the armhole or the shoulder. I often hear people make that shoulder vs. armhole distinction when describing the supposed differences between medieval and modern "princess" seams. Yet in my modern wardrobe, I have princess-lined dresses with seams that go up to the shoulder, as well as others whose seams curve into the armhole. Both have essentially the same bust curve, which does nothing more than shape the garment around my forward-thrusting modern bra. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:25:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L1PkRM015950 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:25:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1PCYF027935 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:25:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1P8aP089276; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:25:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1P7aP089259 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:25:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kerowyn@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.245.75.113.dial1.stlouis1.level3.net ([4.245.75.113] helo=Dan) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bn5qz-0001ig-00; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:25:06 -0400 Message-ID: <0a5801c46ec2$49fdd820$714bf504@Dan> From: "Genie" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:30:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: SLCG-X@yahoogroups.com Subject: [h-cost] Elderberry X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6L1PkRM015950 Status: RO I have an elderberry growing in the corner of my back yard. I have used it for jellies, but could I also use it for dying? G- Snow fallen on snow, and this evening, the full moon of November Basho _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:31:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L1VARM015987 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:31:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1UfYF028431 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:30:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1UeaP092432; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:30:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1UbaP092387 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:30:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6L22m5c062987 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:02:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6L22mvH062986 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:02:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407210202.i6L22mvH062986@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split In-Reply-To: <40FD7E75.5060707@thibault.org> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > otsisto wrote: > > > (A) Split. What is intriguing with this picture is the hems. It looks like > > lightly gathered ruffles. The white bottomed blue skirt, is the white fur or > > a pleated ruffle? > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg > > I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall (others have argued that > those things can't be ruffles, but they seem to behave just like them.) > I think the white is either a fur edge or a fur ruffle -- there's an > odd thought! You know, with all the other odd-ness of M. Francois' images, *that* I'd never noticed! Curiouser and Curiouser, said Alice! Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:34:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L1YRRM016023 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:34:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1WWYF028612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:32:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1WVaP093626; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:32:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1WRaP093588 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:32:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6L24e5c063020 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:04:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6L24eAT063019 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:04:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407210204.i6L24eAT063019@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE:contrasting gores In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > _Regarding contrasting gores....there is a skirt in the German "Single leaf > Woodcuts" where the bottom 2/3 of it has godets (not exactly a gore, I know) > of contrasting fabric. The skirt is of a plain weave and the godets are of > a figured fabric. Hard to tell in a black and white woodcut what the fabric > is. All my books are packed away still (bought a house) but as soon as I > unpack the SLWC I will scan it to the list. Sounds cool. Can't wait to see it. I understand about the scanning. I still have a stack of books at least as high as my knee ..... Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:34:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L1YbRM016029 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:34:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1Y3YF028785 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:34:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1Y3aP094493; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:34:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1Y0aQ094472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:34:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6L1VctY029796 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:31:38 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40FDC808.5010704@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:34:00 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost]medieval ruffles/ contrasting gores vs. split References: <200407210202.i6L22mvH062986@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407210202.i6L22mvH062986@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Susan Farmer wrote:>>otsisto wrote: >>>http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg >> >>I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall > You know, with all the other odd-ness of M. Francois' images, *that* I'd > never noticed! There's ruffles in other artist's images. Particularly an image of noble women doing manual labor in one of the old Medieval Women calendars. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Abstract words such as glory, honor, courage, or hallow were obscene. -- Ernest Hemingway _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:46:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L1kwRM016217 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:46:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1jhYF029681 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:45:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1jgaP001292; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:45:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1jXaP001221 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:45:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08446 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:49:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:49:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <200407202052.i6KKqcbe060542@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > and I don't know if these are "mistakes" on the part of the > illuminator or just sideless surcoats that are the same color as the > undergown, or if this is just "decorative seaming" or *what* is going > on! > > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/flemishMielot_SalvationMirror.jpg > It's the woman in black -- depending on your monitor, you may or may > not be able to see. I'm going to rescan this one at some point. I can't see any seams on the black dress on my monitor, but bear in mind that this figure is dripping with allegory. She is a personification of the Church Triumphant, shown as usual alongside Synogogue in defeat. When they're paired up like this, Church is typically shown robed as a queen, crowned, with a tall cross, carrying a chalice with a ball above it (I forget what the ball is supposed to be). Synogogue is shown blindfolded, in "Jewish" or foreign/Eastern/ancient clothing, carrying the tablets (often upside-down or at least lowered in defeat). Note that her crown has toppled and her flagstaff is broken. (I would consider it an error on the part of the artist that Synogogue is noticeably larger than church, but this appears to be a rather amateurish composition overall.) Here, although Church has the crown, she is seemingly dressed as a nun, another frequent device for symbolizing the Church. However, given that in the Church/Synogogue context, Church often in a sideless surcote (sympolizing "queen"), I wouldn't be surprised if an artist grafted the lines of a surcote right onto the nun's outfit to get the effect of both of these clothing symbols. If that's what you're seeing here, please send me the citation of the book you found this in, as I'll want to add this to my "allegorical surcote usages" file! A nice image of the Church and Synogogue (with Church in a royal sideless surcote and crown) is at the Groeningemuseum in Bruges, by the Master of the St. Ursula Legend. Church and Synogogue are two narrow panels on a large multipanel work showing the life of St. Ursula. > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortune.jpg > woman in blue with red mantle The curved lines on the blue dress "read" as a sideless surcote as often done in this period -- again, it kind of goes hand-in-hand iconographically with the crown and mantle in this (allegorical) context. Normally I'd expect the front top of the surcote to be fur, like Fortune's is, but by this time, surcote representations were all over the map, as they were often made by artists who probably had never seen a sideless surcote in wear and only knew the design as iconographic vocabulary established in artwork. The technique of laying down the two curved lines to indicate the surcote shape, with no other differentiation, was already common in sculpture and brasses by this point. From a technical standpoint, note also that the lines here are more pronounced than his depictions of seams elsewhere, and closer together (over the bust points). > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/flemishRambures_WeddingParty0.jpg > woman in blue with red mantle and gold trim along the edge/seam Susan, do you remember the part of my sideless surcote lecture in which I show depictions of mid-15th c. brides costumed as queens, in crowns and sideless surcotes? This woman is the bride at a wedding, robed as a queen in surcote, crown, and ermine mantle. Depending on the time period, if it's late enough in the 15th c., I suspect that this doesn't depict a real wedding dress, but rather an illuminator's convention for identifying a bride. The illuminator may not know how to paint a realistic surcote, but he knows that the bride is supposed to wear one -- so he adds the two curved lines and rondel decorations over a plain surface. He may even have been copying an earlier manuscript, keeping the iconography intact but "updating" the fashions to something more in keeping with the dress styles he was used to painting. I'd like this citation too, if you can. I should add this one to my lecture. The moral of the above cases: Read the captions! Always know who you're looking at before you try to judge the reality or significance of the costumes. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:53:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L1r4RM016244 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:53:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1qXYF000395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:52:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1qWaP005221; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:52:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1mUaP002908 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:48:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.108] (pm7-108.eos.net [205.133.149.108]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L1mPEM025460 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:48:25 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:46:00 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407201802.i6KI274h056134@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bananas, and costume too X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks to you guys I have some very weird versions of an Elizabethan Chiquita Banana costume flitting through my head. Luckily for the world, I don't have any time to make one or place to wear it . . . Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 21:54:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L1sVRM016247 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:54:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1rtYF000513 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:53:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1rraP006066; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:53:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L1rpaP006011 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:53:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from localhost (robin@localhost) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08497 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:58:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:58:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split In-Reply-To: <40FD7E75.5060707@thibault.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg > > I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall (others have argued that > those things can't be ruffles, but they seem to behave just like them.) > I think the white is either a fur edge or a fur ruffle -- there's an > odd thought! Looks like a standard fur band to me, with texture painted in. The other dresses do have ruffles, or whatever you want to call them. I've never heard anyone argue against them being something that functions as what we would call a ruffle -- what have you heard? I've heard a couple of provocative ideas for their construction. One is that the bottom is actually a straight band, but gathered across the top to fit the slightly smaller distance around the bottom of the skirt, to which it is attached. This would make sense if you can't get the full length of the dress out of standard fabric widths. You would make it as long as you can (in this case, about eight inches short of the floor), but it would be a royal pain, and a waste, to cut a curved panel to piece on for the necessary length. So you cut a straight strip and do the gathering thing to maintain the necessary flare. The other interesting theory I've heard is that the dress is made rather too long, and then tucked with a seam at that line. Given the wide skirt flare, the lower part would be somewhat longer on the seam than the upper part would be, so the difference is distributed with a gather. That would technically mean it's all one piece, but suppose it's not inappropriate to say that functionally it's a ruffle! I don't know what anyone else would call it. A third theory, which I don't put any stock in, is that all these women have worn out their hems and have had to piece on new ones by adding a strip of fabric. I don't see that being the case for depictions of upper-class women who would not routinely be painting in patched or mended clothing. I suppose there might be a problem with the word "ruffle" if people use it to justify the Gunne Sax petticoat treatment. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 22:04:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L24lRM016481 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:04:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L23oYF001185 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:03:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L23laP011870; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:03:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f10.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L23haP011771 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:03:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:03:38 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.94 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:03:38 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.94] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:03:38 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2004 02:03:38.0503 (UTC) FILETIME=[F0293970:01C46EC6] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Lisa Sinervo" >Moy back design? > >I think it's definately easy to see what we expect. I took a look at it >and > >my thought was that it was very similar to the Moy back design :) Sorry, I was sort of thinking aloud, as it were. Descriptions of the Moy Garment can be found at: http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/moy.html http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish/moy.html Marc _________________________________________________________________ Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 22:22:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L2MdRM016864 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:22:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2KxYF002409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:20:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2KxaP021746; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:20:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav7.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2KJaR021341 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:20:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:09:35 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.62 by bay1-dav7.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 20:31:20 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.62] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FBC75E.2274.3E4C910@localhost> <07f001c46dcd$fb7998f0$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:30:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2004 02:09:35.0726 (UTC) FILETIME=[C51520E0:01C46EC7] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Those patterns even cut are worth mega cash. Just a heads up. eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie > > > > > My Barbies had removable heads. In fact, in the early 60s you could > > buy the head separately (with different hair styles). It was great > > for when someone broke one of your Barbie's legs and tore out the > > hair of another. You could just switch them off. (I still have my > > original Barbie from c.1958 or 60. Of course, it isn't in perfect > > condition because my mom "lent" them to my older sister for her > > oldest daughter. It's a wonder I got anything back!) > > > > Kat > > I had Barbies with removable heads too, from the mid-late sixties and early > seventies. One of them had dark hair in a sort of a flip, and blue eyes. > Years later, I found just the head. Last I saw of it, my older sister had > put it on her car antenna. (lol) > I also have a couple of the patterns my mom used to sew their clothing. I > think I may take a stab at it. It's got to be easier than the one-shoulder > gown my best friend had me make for her daughter's Barbie...out of tissue > lame! OMG was that a PITA!! > > Dianne > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 22:27:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L2R0RM017009 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:27:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2KYYF002386 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:20:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2KSaP021472; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:20:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav7.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2KJaP021341 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:20:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:09:35 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.62 by bay1-dav7.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:15:27 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.62] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407192137.i6JLblMU050650@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:15:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2004 02:09:35.0429 (UTC) FILETIME=[C4E7CF50:01C46EC7] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well that's skirting. He was the first Stuart on the English throne. eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Farmer" To: Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 5:37 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Eliabeth Barbie > > > > Hmmm. I need to re read the royal english lineage I thought James was the > > last Tudor. > > >From the site: "The last of the Tudor monarchs, Queen Elizabeth I is > > considered one of the most successful and popular British rulers in > > history". > > Yep. James was the first Stuart. > > Jerusha > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 22:31:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L2VWRM017128 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:31:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2UkYF003067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:30:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2UiaP027595; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:30:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (smtp1.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6L2UeaP027559 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:30:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-9665); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:28:11 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp1.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:28:11 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040720192755.01ee4b58@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:30:32 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elderberry In-Reply-To: <0a5801c46ec2$49fdd820$714bf504@Dan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 08:30 PM 7/20/2004 -0500, you wrote: >I have an elderberry growing in the corner of my back yard. I have used >it for jellies, but could I also use it for dying? > >G- Unfortunately, most berry juices don't work very well as dyes as they tend to fade quickly. Although if you only need a small amount dyed (say, a ribbon for your hair), and aren't worried about fading, it should be fine. Personally, I'd rather have the jelly. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 22:36:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L2aGRM017172 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:36:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2XiYF003211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:33:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2XhaP029299; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:33:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L2XgaP029279 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:33:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-34-217.jps.net ([209.165.34.217] helo=KALC) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bn6vM-00016Z-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:33:40 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Elderberry Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:33:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <0a5801c46ec2$49fdd820$714bf504@Dan> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, you can, with the straight berries crushed and simmered you will get a dark lavender which will fade quickly. Adding salt to the dye bath is supposed to bring out bluer shades. Bark can be used too with lighter results, leaves make a dull yellowish green. Lisa Sinervo -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Genie Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:30 PM To: Historical Costume Cc: SLCG-X@yahoogroups.com Subject: [h-cost] Elderberry I have an elderberry growing in the corner of my back yard. I have used it for jellies, but could I also use it for dying? G- Snow fallen on snow, and this evening, the full moon of November Basho _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 23:13:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L3DtRM017331 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:13:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L37sYF005379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:07:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L37kaP048642; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:07:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (ms-smtp-03-smtplb.ohiordc.rr.com [65.24.5.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L37eaP048607 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:07:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ailith@neo.rr.com) Received: from duncan (dhcp024-209-056-164.neo.rr.com [24.209.56.164]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6L37XVe029408 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:07:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008801c46ecf$dde00bf0$1902a8c0@duncan> From: "ailith" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4.2.2.20040720192755.01ee4b58@pop.surewest.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:07:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Elderberry X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > At 08:30 PM 7/20/2004 -0500, you wrote: > >I have an elderberry growing in the corner of my back yard. I have used > >it for jellies, but could I also use it for dying? > > > >G- > > Unfortunately, most berry juices don't work very well as dyes as they tend > to fade quickly. Although if you only need a small amount dyed (say, a > ribbon for your hair), and aren't worried about fading, it should be fine. Oh, I wouldn't say that about elderberries! Years ago, while making jelly, some of them were crushed into my Mom's kitchen rug...the stains stayed for years--even with frequent laundering and bleaching! Of course, since the rug was "still good" she wouldn't let me toss it in the trash bin! kate _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 23:40:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L3efRM017565 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:40:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3c4YF007470 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:38:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3bjaP065589; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:37:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from incoming.SIGENETICS.com ([209.172.110.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3bfaP065504 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:37:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sbuchler@silicongenetics.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:37:33 -0700 Message-ID: <0D3431E0FD777844A4ED9507E4D698D90D2730@incoming.sigenetics.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 559 Thread-Index: AcRuxQIvNPNu8SAvRXCjqZL+afBGkgADkC3A From: "Sunny Buchler" To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6L3bfaP065504 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: princess seams?! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Has there really been any debate about the existence of > curved-over-the-bust-region seams post-1450? Examples are not hard to > find. Really? I've noted that in looking through most of the 1600-1800 pattern books (such as Janet Arnold and Nora Waugh) the curved over the bust seam line seems to be a late Georgian-early Victorian thing. Granted, through out this period women are wearing corsets, but again I find it interesting that it isn't until ~1800 that corsets are attempting to give a curvy shape to the bosom, rather then flattening it/turning it into a cylinder. I don't want to sound demanding, but I'm wondering what I've missed -- what type of examples are you thinking of? Thanks! -sunny _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 23:43:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L3gxRM017637 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:42:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3fCYF007845 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:41:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3f9aP067569; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:41:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav16.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.120]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3f6aP067473 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:41:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:23:37 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.9 by bay1-dav16.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:34:51 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.9] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <00ba01c46e3d$89c3fdc0$4792d6cb@ewalpole> Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:34:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2004 03:23:37.0818 (UTC) FILETIME=[1CC693A0:01C46ED2] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This was a running theme with pre 18th C childhood. Children before the age of about 8-12 weren't really expected to survive etc etc. And one Roman man chided his wife for grieving more over her daughter than over her father by stating that the daughter could be replaced but the father could not. (this was in a letter IIRC) but that's not to say the Greeks and roman's didn't love their small children. Frasier's History of Toys shows some stunning examples of dolls shown buried with little girls in the ancient era. B eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost]hearths and medieval children > > > but what she > > found was a source which told her that 1: med/ren people didn't love > > their children until the kids were 10 or so because most didn't survive > > > Actually we had this debate in a tutorial for Roman history, there is some > evidence that infants were not seen as a loss as serious as an adult or even > an older child. Comparatively few infants or young children were given > formal adult burials, One headstone of a child about 8-10 complains that the > parents wished the child had died earlier before they had become so > attached. Or people (I think it was Cicero quoting a common saying) claiming > that if a child died it was not a great loss and if an infant died the > parents barely noticed. > Then there is evidence on the other side that many people did feel grief at > the loss of their children such as one Roman historian who regards a > character concealing her grief at the loss of her children (in order to > avoid grieving her husband) as particularly heroic. Another writer regards a > slaughter of children to be the worst possible tragedy ever to happen to a > town. I think it's safe to say that medieval people felt differently about > the death of their children as they knew they would almost certainly bury at > least one probably more of their children, therefore it does not come as a > huge shock, the grief is almost certainly still there, but it would be > different to that of a modern parent who expects all their children to > outlive them. > A similar difference can be seen in regards to childbirth, medieval people > were fully aware of the dangers of a confinement and expected that > childbirth would result in the deaths of at least some of the women they > knew, today many people believe childbirth is safe and if a woman does die > they often assume there must have been some sort of incompetence on the part > of the medical professionals caring for them, in reality for many women > natural childbirth is one of the most dangerous experiences they will go > through. > Just my thoughts on the matter > Elizabeth > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole > Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia > ewalpole@austar.net.au > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 23:45:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L3jARM017702 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:45:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3hPYF008006 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:43:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3hOaP068818; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:43:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3hCaQ068694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:43:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6L3iLBJ029581 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:44:22 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:49:25 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407201819.i6KIJ6n9059304@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407201819.i6KIJ6n9059304@sabre.goldsword.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407202349.25719.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tuesday 20 July 2004 2:19 pm, Susan Farmer wrote: [snip] > > The only picture that I have seen depicting contrasting gores was a late > > 14th century Italian painting of St. D..... oh darn! I can't remember > > the saint's name - Dormitia? That doesn't sound right, and of course, > > the picture's at home and I'm at work. The dress is red and the gores > > appear to be gold or gilded. > > I'd love to see it -- wonder if it's online anywhere. I know when I first > saw some of the M. Francois illuminations from Augustine's City of God > we were trying to figure out if they were gores or a split overskirt. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_DevilInstigation.j >pg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortune.j >pg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_Intercession.jpg > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg I don't think *any* of these look like a skirt with contrasting gores; they look like a skirt with a split on the side toward the viewer (though I would credit the possibility of there being a matching split on the other side). The jpgs show gold highlighted portions of skirt which, to me, look very different than the visible split. Significantly, in this one: http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortune.jpg The dress appears to be lined, and you can see a portion of lining along the edge of the slit as well. > In some of these, you really can't tell; but in others, the lay of the > layers of fabric is different so it's "obvious" that one is split > overskirt. I think they're all obviously split overskirts, but I agree that a few of them are more obvious than others. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 23:51:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L3pNRM017814 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:51:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3lXYF008313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:47:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3lWaP071026; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:47:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3lIaQ070907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:47:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6L3mOSv029719 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:48:26 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:53:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407202353.28536.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tuesday 20 July 2004 4:07 pm, otsisto wrote: > we were trying to figure out if they were gores or a split overskirt. [snip] > (A) Split. What is intriguing with this picture is the hems. It looks like > lightly gathered ruffles. The white bottomed blue skirt, is the white fur > or a pleated ruffle? > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg I see what you mean. However, given the heavy, straight way the rest of the skirt hangs, and the fact that fur-lined overdresses were fairly common in this period, I think it's more likely to depict fur instead of a finely pleated ruffle. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 23:51:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L3pmRM017820 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:51:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3o4YF008504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:50:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3nSaP072124; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:49:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3nFaQ071994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:49:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6L3oQNm029802 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:50:26 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost]medieval ruffles/ contrasting gores vs. split Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:55:30 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407210202.i6L22mvH062986@sabre.goldsword.com> <40FDC808.5010704@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <40FDC808.5010704@thibault.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407202355.30328.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tuesday 20 July 2004 9:34 pm, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > Susan Farmer wrote:>>otsisto wrote: > >>>http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jp > >>>g > >> > >>I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall > > > > You know, with all the other odd-ness of M. Francois' images, *that* I'd > > never noticed! > > There's ruffles in other artist's images. Particularly an image of > noble women doing manual labor in one of the old Medieval Women calendars. Do you really think so? I have some of the old Medieval Women calendars, and I never interpreted those images as anything like a ruffle. Can you come up with an example or two of what you mean other than the M. Francois images? -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 20 23:58:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L3wnRM018062 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:58:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3s2YF008720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:54:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3rZaP074429; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:53:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3rXaP074382 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:53:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09386 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:57:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:57:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: princess seams?! In-Reply-To: <0D3431E0FD777844A4ED9507E4D698D90D2730@incoming.sigenetics.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Sunny Buchler wrote: > > Has there really been any debate about the existence of > > curved-over-the-bust-region seams post-1450? Examples are not hard to > > find. > > Really? I've noted that in looking through most of the 1600-1800 > pattern books (such as Janet Arnold and Nora Waugh) the curved over > the bust seam line seems to be a late Georgian-early Victorian thing. > Granted, through out this period women are wearing corsets, but again > I find it interesting that it isn't until ~1800 that corsets are > attempting to give a curvy shape to the bosom, rather then flattening > it/turning it into a cylinder. > > I don't want to sound demanding, but I'm wondering what I've missed -- > what type of examples are you thinking of? Late 15th century, early 16th century, and mostly not English. I don't know a thing about 1600-1800 bust shape, I'm afraid. The discussion I was responding to had been focusing on some late 15th-c. examples of seams that curved over the bust. Someone then said that this provided evidence to counter the common argument that such seams weren't used in that period. However, that argument normally addresses the use of such seams in the late 14th and early 15th centuries. My point was that the no-princess-seam debate is about pre-1450 styles, and our discussion was of examples from post-1450, where examples are not hard to find and the question is not at issue. The presence of the late-15th-c. examples doesn't tell us anything about the late-14th / early-15th c. techniques and fashions, which were different. I did not intend to suggest that these seams were used in *all* periods after 1450! The periods that have been under discussion, in fact, are all pre-corsetry, so it does not surprise me that the methods changed yet again with the adoption of foundation garments and the different silhouettes involved. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 00:02:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L42jRM018247 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:02:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3wpYF009052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:58:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3wmaP077290; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:58:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L3wZaQ077188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:58:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6L3xjhd030057 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:59:46 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:04:49 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407210004.49487.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tuesday 20 July 2004 9:58 pm, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.j > > >pg > > > > I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall (others have argued that > > those things can't be ruffles, but they seem to behave just like them.) > > I think the white is either a fur edge or a fur ruffle -- there's an > > odd thought! > > Looks like a standard fur band to me, with texture painted in. The other > dresses do have ruffles, or whatever you want to call them. > > I've never heard anyone argue against them being something that functions > as what we would call a ruffle -- what have you heard? [snip] What do you mean by "functions as a ruffle"? -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 00:16:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L4G0RM018399 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:16:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4EKYF010271 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:14:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4ECaP086062; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:14:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav18.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4EAaP085998 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:14:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:36:38 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.80 by bay1-dav18.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:59:52 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.80] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407191721.i6JHLqLt047888@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:59:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2004 03:36:38.0381 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE0709D0:01C46ED3] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO *Beats Jerusha with an overlarge cucumber* take that however you want my cuddle muffin. eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- > > > > *sigh* I'm going to hunt you down. I swear. > > *giggle* You just came here to get away from fruits and Veggies! > The Powers of the Universe are trying to tell you something, Bice! > > giggling, JErusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 00:18:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L4IJRM018496 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:18:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4GXYF010416 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:16:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4GWaP087360; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:16:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4GTaP087314 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:16:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09543 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:20:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:20:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houp/ sleeveless shifts In-Reply-To: <40F1F6D1.5050007@thibault.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Susan Farmer wrote: > > However, did you notice that some of the houppelandish things had different > > colored bag sleeves with hanging sleeves that went to the floor? Like these > > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008188.JPG > > (you can open the link in a new window, just not the whole frame) > > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008191.JPG I'm just catching up on this. You may know this already, but it's not clear from your description above, so I'll state the obvious: The different colored sleeves are almost certainly the sleeves of an undergown, coming through armhole openings on the "houppelandish things," which have sleeves that either hang from the shoulder or are very wide and open, allowing the undergown sleeves to show prominently. In other words, the different-color sleeves would not be attached to the houppelandish overgarments. The same sort of combination is here, in a well-known image: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/april.jpg The woman in the blue brocaded overgown is wearing a gold undergown whose sleeves are fully visible, because the overgown sleeves hang directly like the shoulder. The images you showed appear to be slightly later, and the undergowns have puffier sleeves in some cases, though in the two women in the second image, the undergown sleeves are still tight. The overgowns with the wide/hanging sleeves appear to be quite sumptuous and may indicate rank or importance of the figures wearing them. Did I miss the citation on these images? Where are they from? What is the story -- a romance? There's something about the faces that I think might be a sign of location of the artist; it has a German feel in style. Location might explain the interesting combination of elements here. The men's costume has pleating like you see in Flanders in the 1460s, but the women have houppelande necks that I'd place in the 1430s at the latest if this were Flanders, so I'm getting conflicting time clues here! --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 00:45:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L4j9RM018737 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:45:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4aLYF011623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:36:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4aJaP098255; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:36:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4aGaP098225 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:36:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09682 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:40:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:40:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split In-Reply-To: <200407210004.49487.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > I've never heard anyone argue against them being something that functions > > as what we would call a ruffle -- what have you heard? > > [snip] > > What do you mean by "functions as a ruffle"? Um, a strip of cloth that's gathered at the top where it attaches to the hem of a garment? In other words, given some of the construction theories I outlined, its method of cutting or its purpose may not have been the same as, say, the ruffle on the bottom of my comfy winter nightgown, but once it's there, it ends up being essentially the same as something that a modern person, asked to name it, would call a ruffle. I suppose "functions" might not have been the best term for me to use, if you're looking at the possible purposes for which it was placed. Modern people tend to see a ruffle as a decorative element. We can only guess at the medieval purposes. It might well have been a functional element, to lengthen fabric or shorten it (see the hypotheses I suggested in my post). But it still ends up being what we'd call a "ruffle" if we had to put a technical name to the mechanics by which it hangs from the skirt. I'm open to different readings, though. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 00:47:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L4lcRM018764 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:47:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4TkYF011115 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:29:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4TiaP094598; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:29:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L4TgaP094574 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:29:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.33.45.134]) by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040721042941.LYEH9273.out002.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:29:41 -0500 Message-ID: <004701c46edb$59e21b20$862d2104@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <0a5801c46ec2$49fdd820$714bf504@Dan> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elderberry Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:29:43 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.33.45.134] at Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:29:40 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Or wine... heeheehee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Genie" To: "Historical Costume" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 6:30 PM Subject: [h-cost] Elderberry I have an elderberry growing in the corner of my back yard. I have used it for jellies, but could I also use it for dying? G- Snow fallen on snow, and this evening, the full moon of November Basho _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 01:25:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L5PVRM019131 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:25:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L5HAYF014043 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:17:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L5GbaP020209; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:16:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L5GXaP020175 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:16:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20j0.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.96] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bn9Sy-0004p0-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:16:32 -0700 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040720233929.0236bec0@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:42:23 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200407201802.i6KI274h056134@net.indra.com> References: <200407201802.i6KI274h056134@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: 'Vegetable' fibers X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And milkweed is now a cash crop - in the midwest, at least - it's being used as a non-allergenic substitute for goose down in comforters, etc. It apparently gives a loft and lightness very similar to down. Sandy >From: kat@grendal.rain.com > > Flax and nettles, both. And hemp, as well. > > And then there's the weirder fibers like kapok (closer to cotton than > > the above "bast" fibers). Anybody else remember when life preservers > > used to have kapok stuffing? --sue > >Remember Kapok stuffed life preservers? I still *have* one. > >Kat > "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 02:56:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L6u3RM021243 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:56:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L6lPYF019267 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:47:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L6lAaP066897; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:47:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L6l8aP066836 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:47:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004072106470201600bbd4pe>; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:47:02 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:47:02 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO oh BAD mental image Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Bice Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 11:00 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit *Beats Jerusha with an overlarge cucumber* take that however you want my cuddle muffin. eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- > > > > *sigh* I'm going to hunt you down. I swear. > > *giggle* You just came here to get away from fruits and Veggies! > The Powers of the Universe are trying to tell you something, Bice! > > giggling, JErusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 03:03:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L73lRM021336 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:03:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L6tZYF019685 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:55:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L6tYaP070615; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:55:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L6tXaP070594 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:55:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 782F52910D for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040720234959.0243e208@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 23:51:37 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF7E@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx .ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 11:33 AM 7/20/2004 +0100, you wrote: >Could it have been intended to parody a different >dress worn by Judi in the film, she didn't wear the peacock one in every >scene, did she? > >Teddy There was only one scene I recall from that movie (Shakespeare in Love) with Judi in it, at the theatre "in disguise" and then she goes out to her carriage with the big puddle at her feet. I gotta watch that movie again. Just for the fun of it. Kimiko _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 03:31:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L7VpRM021518 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 03:31:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L7LTYF021069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:21:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L7LLaP083396; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:21:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt16.ihug.co.nz (grunt16.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.56]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L7LEaP083235 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:21:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p6-max8.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.204.70] by grunt16.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BnBPR-0000rk-00; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:21:02 +1200 Message-ID: <005001c46ef3$41b2c640$46ccadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE:contrasting gores Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:20:51 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned X-Virus-Status: Not Scanned Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > _Regarding contrasting gores....there is a skirt in the German "Single leaf > Woodcuts" where the bottom 2/3 of it has godets (not exactly a gore, I know) > of contrasting fabric. The skirt is of a plain weave and the godets are of > a figured fabric. Hard to tell in a black and white woodcut what the fabric > is. All my books are packed away still (bought a house) but as soon as I > unpack the SLWC I will scan it to the list. You don't mean the hems completely covered in "godets" do you? Like the ones here: http://home.att.net/~mmcnealy/Articles/Kampfrau.htm Especially the second image on the left. "G.270 Women and Knaves c.1530" in the middle wearing a wulsthaub/steuchlein. Second woman from the left. That's more likely to be a decorative application of fabric rather than an insertion. Note how the skirts still fall in the same lines. The same effect is in the 7th image down in her underskirt. "G. 615 Ro. 255 Tailor as Lansquenet and Seamstress c.1535" It's the same as the banding. Applied decoration rather than insertion is the most likely explanation. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 04:21:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6L8LdRM022631 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:21:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L8L5YF023861 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:21:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6L8L2aP013401; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:21:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51304.mail.yahoo.com (web51304.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.170]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6L8KxaP013324 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:21:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from freyalynn@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040721082053.5386.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [195.92.168.169] by web51304.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:20:53 PDT Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 01:20:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Freyalynn Close-Hainsworth To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407210354.i6L3sPaR074956@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Elderberries X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have got lovely lilacs and reddish-purples on silk and wool with elderberries and blackberries and the like. You need to mordant with alum and cream of tartar, as normal, and use *lots* of vinegar in the dyebath. Silk, if properly wetted out, will take it better. The colour is still fugitive though, although the vinegar does make it stronger. Expect it to fade to a greyish green, quicker if exposed to strong light, but it will eventually fade even if kept in the dark. And as for berry stains, I wish I knew what set of circumstantial chemicals are in place whenever inadvertant stains become completely colourfast! Same as curry stains - use tumeric deliberately, and it fades. Spill curry down your white t-shirt (or T-tunic) and it's there for ever. Freyalyn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 06:29:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LATjRM023417 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:29:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LARtYF029473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:27:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LARnaP076759; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:27:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LARgaQ076703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:27:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6LAPJtY032548 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:25:19 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40FE451C.4050604@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:27:40 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: > I've never heard anyone argue against them being something that functions > as what we would call a ruffle -- what have you heard? Nothing with good reasoning behind it! Mostly it was, I think, a reaction to the idea of ruffles. 'Ruffles are so modern, you know, they couldn't possibly have been a decorative medieval element.' The most reasonable argument (which I don't think is valid) was that it wasn't a self fabric ruffle, it was a band of velvet exactly matching the gown, and the 'ruffle marks' were just showing the transition in density/pile. This was some 5-7 yrs ago, possibly on this list. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Abstract words such as glory, honor, courage, or hallow were obscene. -- Ernest Hemingway _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 06:30:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LAURRM023426 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:30:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LATqYF029555 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:29:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LATpaP077822; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:29:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LATmaQ077799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:29:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6LARNtY032563 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:27:23 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40FE4598.3010801@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:29:44 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost]medieval ruffles/ contrasting gores vs. split References: <200407210202.i6L22mvH062986@sabre.goldsword.com> <40FDC808.5010704@thibault.org> <200407202355.30328.cathy@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <200407202355.30328.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: >>There's ruffles in other artist's images. Particularly an image of >>noble women doing manual labor in one of the old Medieval Women calendars. > > Do you really think so? I have some of the old Medieval Women calendars, and > I never interpreted those images as anything like a ruffle. Can you come up > with an example or two of what you mean other than the M. Francois images? The one I recall most clearly has a low wall of large bricks, with women in blue and red and gold/black brocade, fancy heart-shaped hats. It was a full page illustration. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 06:43:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LAhDRM023478 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:43:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LAgaYF000256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:42:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LAgXaP084146; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:42:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LAgTaP084102 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:42:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:40:55 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF8F@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Favorite Movie Costume? Thread-Index: AcRueiht2a/aU9RASJmySY1f0RvJiwAlNq6A content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Be careful! I once did this while leaving a party with friends. Two of > > them were decidedly "merry" and decided to join in, their combined > > efforts made the lift grind to a halt between floors > > I don't even want to know what dance you guys were doing. It > wasn't a soft shoe I'll bet. I was doing a simple tap routine - they were jumping up and down with great gusto. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 06:48:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LAm1RM023491 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:48:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LAlNYF000461 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:47:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LAlMaP086494; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:47:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LAlJaP086452 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:47:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:46:09 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] contrasting gores To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF90@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] contrasting gores Thread-Index: AcRueiht2a/aU9RASJmySY1f0RvJiwAlRpgw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Is there any evidence for gores out of contrasting fabric? I saw a lady > with such a gown on at an SCA event recently, and I was curious. In what period/place? I see it a lot in late 14th and 15th Century re-eactment costumes here in England and think it's a costuming myth. I've never seen any pictures from the period depicting it. Someone, somewhere got the wrong idea about particolouring. They didn't have enough of one fabric to make a full gown so instead of making it half-and-half, made the main gown in one colour and made the skirts fuller by adding gores of another. Someone else saw it, liked it and copied it.... and thus a classic garb myth is born. Sometimes they have the sleeves in the same colour as the gores. If anyone knows of any picture sources that show contrast gores in gowns of the late 14th or 15th century, please share! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 06:57:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LAvvRM023517 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 06:57:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LAtwYF000824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:55:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LAttaP091417; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:55:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LAtsaP091399 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:55:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:54:55 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF91@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores Thread-Index: AcRug/MBfVFHS577Se+sLhDB0vO9dAAjO81Q content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I'd love to see it -- wonder if it's online anywhere. I know > when I first saw some of the M. Francois illuminations from > Augustine's City of God we were trying to figure out if they > were gores or a split overskirt. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_Devil Instigation.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortun e.jpg http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_Intercession.jp g http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jp g > In some of these, you really can't tell; but in others, the lay of the > layers of fabric is different so it's "obvious" that one is split overskirt. Which ones can't you tell? It looks pretty obvious to me in all cases, there are folds in the "gores"/underskirts that don't continue beyond the edge of the main-fabric/overskirt spilt. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 07:02:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LB2SRM023532 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:02:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LB1wYF001018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:01:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LB1raP094435; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:01:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LB1kaP094368 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:01:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:00:41 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] princess seams?! was: contrasting gores To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF92@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] princess seams?! was: contrasting gores Thread-Index: AcRul4aWOvK1PK8mTumLd7WMUx81FgAedyhg content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Thanks for posting those pictures Jerusha. I am fascinated > by the apparently princess seam in: > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg > > It is the woman seen from the back, directly to the right of > the clerical type figure on the left. She has a russety > coloured headdress. > > I realize that it can be difficult to use illuminations for > fine details, but it is another log on the princess seam > fire, I mean debate... Hey Danielle, It looks more likely to be a large armhole (like on the woman in the bottom right corner) - there's apossible seam-mine visible coming out of one of the underarm folds if you look closely (only *possibly*, though) - in conjunction with a wide underarm to hem gore *or* a side seam that's way too far back. Hard to tell either way. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 07:42:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LBgIRM023866 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:42:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LBeIYF002911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:40:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LBeFaP014566; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:40:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LBeDaP014548 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:40:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:38:54 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF93@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Thread-Index: AcRul4aWOvK1PK8mTumLd7WMUx81FgAe0p2g content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > (A) Split skirts. Besides the gray, the pink also has a princess seam. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg I don't see a "princess" seam on the pink, just a huge armhole seam. > (A) Split skirt. Felicite -either she has a matching blue > sideless on or she has princess seams. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortun e.jpg That one is a puzzler. > (A) Split. What is intriguing with this picture is the hems. > It looks like lightly gathered ruffles. The white bottomed > blue skirt, is the white fur or a pleated ruffle? > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jp g I'd say fur, but the pleated ruffle thing appears on a few other images around this period. I've never been certain if it is a ruffle, or it's a tuck (with the tucked fabric on the inside) and the fact that the skirts are of a flared cut means the part below the tuck is wider than the part above it so needs to be slightly gathered. Sarah Thursfield regards it as a ruffle and inmcludes it in some of her instruictions in *The Medieval Tailour's Assistant*. I'm not *entirely* convinced. Nor, I have to say am I entirely unconvinced. and onto princess seams.... > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_MysteriesCybele .jpg Again, I see the big armhole and a possible side gore/panel or a side-seam set way far back (no sign of a seperate side seam, as with the woman in black/grey in the first other picture side seam) A couple of these women also have the ruffle/tuck thingies near their skirt hems too. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_OfLuxuryDetail. jpg Big armholes and set back side seams again... possibly... but raises the question fo whether those are waist seams (at hip level and curving down to points front and back!!) or belts or what??? > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_SuicideSemproni a.jpg A bit indistinct, but seems to show a "princess"(ish) seam at the bust (could just be shading) and the hem ruffle/tuck thingy. It's a bit to the side and below the modern princess seam location, so could possibly be arguedm as a side gore. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_VolumniaCoriola nus.jpg > stress lines on woman in grey with red truncated henin Another good case one, but with the "low and to the side" argument for it being a side gore (I wonder at what point it ceases being a side gore and becomes a "princess" cut?) > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_Voluptas.jpg > stress lines on the woman in brown with the truncated henin; line on woman in > brown with white head-wrap. > and I don't know if these are "mistakes" on the part of the illuminator or just > sideless surcoats that are the same color as the undergown, or if this is just > "decorative seaming" or *what* is going on! Some of them clearly show seams of some sort there... and by this late (these are mostly late 15th century, right?) I'm pretty certain that there's a good case for *a period varioation on* what we modernly call "princess seaming" > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/flemishMielot_SalvationMi rror.jpg > It's the woman in black -- depending on your monitor, you may or may not be able > to see. I'm going to rescan this one at some point. Looks more like a sideless surcote varuioation (what date is this?!) since the lines appear to curve out and up around waist/hip level. The woman in blue however, has what might be a seam line shown on her bodice right (the viewer's left) side, plus a possible ruffle at the hem of her red layer (as does the one ibn black for that matter) > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortun e.jpg > woman in blue with red mantle Either a seam or the edge of a matching sideless surcote (it looks to have a definate edge) > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/flemishRambures_WeddingPa rty0.jpg > woman in blue with red mantle and gold trim along the edge/seam Again, could be a sideless surcote - it's into the period, by the look of it, that sideless surcote was being used as visiual shorthand for "this woman is Royalty". She's wearing a crown so..... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 07:48:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LBmeRM023926 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:48:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LBkrYF003287 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:46:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LBkqaP017885; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:46:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LBkmaP017845 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:46:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6LCJ45c067469 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:19:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6LCJ1hB067468 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:19:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407211219.i6LCJ1hB067468@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost]medieval ruffles/ contrasting gores vs. split In-Reply-To: <40FDC808.5010704@thibault.org> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Susan Farmer wrote:>>otsisto wrote: > >>>http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg > >> > >>I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall > > You know, with all the other odd-ness of M. Francois' images, *that* I'd > > never noticed! > > There's ruffles in other artist's images. Particularly an image of > noble women doing manual labor in one of the old Medieval Women calendars. Cool! I'll have to see if I can track those down! Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 09:34:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LDY3RM024435 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:34:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LDVwYF009730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:31:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LDVoaP076334; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:31:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LDVjaP076277 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:31:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a257.in-tch.com [66.62.107.57]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6LDVgN14337 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:31:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <40FE712E.50301@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:35:42 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A completely off-the-wall question, regarding these works of art that are so thick with allegory and iconography (which is just fascinating to me, when Robin starts pointing it out!).... I just happened to notice that the 1st example below is from what I think of as a "painting" painting (hang on the wall kind?), and the 2nd is more clearly an illumination for a manuscript, and I was wondering if there were any differences in the type/quality/amount of allegorical depictions when the medium is taken into account? Do some show up more in illuminations and some more as glasswork or statuary? Or is this just a completely lame question which only sounds vaguely interesting because I haven't yet had enough caffeine? --sue Robin Netherton wrote: > >>http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/flemishMielot_SalvationMirror.jpg > > >>It's the woman in black -- depending on your monitor, you may or may >>not be able to see. I'm going to rescan this one at some point. > > > I can't see any seams on the black dress on my monitor, but bear in mind > that this figure is dripping with allegory. She is a personification of > the Church Triumphant, shown as usual alongside Synogogue in defeat. When > they're paired up like this, Church is typically shown robed as a queen, > crowned, with a tall cross, carrying a chalice with a ball above it (I > forget what the ball is supposed to be). Synogogue is shown blindfolded, > in "Jewish" or foreign/Eastern/ancient clothing, carrying the tablets > (often upside-down or at least lowered in defeat). Note that her crown has > toppled and her flagstaff is broken. (I would consider it an error on the > part of the artist that Synogogue is noticeably larger than church, but > this appears to be a rather amateurish composition overall.) > > Here, although Church has the crown, she is seemingly dressed as a nun, > another frequent device for symbolizing the Church. However, given that in > the Church/Synogogue context, Church often in a sideless surcote > (sympolizing "queen"), I wouldn't be surprised if an artist grafted the > lines of a surcote right onto the nun's outfit to get the effect of both > of these clothing symbols. If that's what you're seeing here, please send > me the citation of the book you found this in, as I'll want to add this to > my "allegorical surcote usages" file! > > A nice image of the Church and Synogogue (with Church in a royal sideless > surcote and crown) is at the Groeningemuseum in Bruges, by the Master of > the St. Ursula Legend. Church and Synogogue are two narrow panels on a > large multipanel work showing the life of St. Ursula. > > >>http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortune.jpg >>woman in blue with red mantle > > > The curved lines on the blue dress "read" as a sideless surcote as often > done in this period -- again, it kind of goes hand-in-hand > iconographically with the crown and mantle in this (allegorical) context. > Normally I'd expect the front top of the surcote to be fur, like Fortune's > is, but by this time, surcote representations were all over the map, as > they were often made by artists who probably had never seen a sideless > surcote in wear and only knew the design as iconographic vocabulary > established in artwork. The technique of laying down the two curved lines > to indicate the surcote shape, with no other differentiation, was already > common in sculpture and brasses by this point. From a technical > standpoint, note also that the lines here are more pronounced than his > depictions of seams elsewhere, and closer together (over the bust points). _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 10:03:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LE3qRM024691 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:03:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LE2DYF012166 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:02:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LE29aP095621; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:02:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LE27aP095528 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:02:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f22.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.34]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8477026285A for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:02:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <008301c46f2b$5b5a7bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:02:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes excatly my problems two. In my textile history group they call gilted purl for spirals, but in fact i did find a danish term or rather the german term wich was used in Denmark wich is Kantille threads or is it french :-) Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Netherton" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 2:24 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > > > Yes you are right, but there also are problems about it. All my > > library is mostly english and costume related i know all the technical > > terms and words, but how about danish? I dont know 1/2 of it what it > > is called in danish, and that is so bothering for me. Cartridge > > pleating for instance, i have not a clue what that is called in > > danish. > > It might be that there is no term. A friend of mine who is bilingual > English-Danish and also a costume scholar (her clothing history degree is > from Copenhagen) has told me that she runs into this problem working with > Danish costume researchers. Sometimes she will want to ask a technical > question and realize there is no equivalent term in Danish for the sewing > technique or fabric characteristic she is trying to discuss. > > --Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 10:08:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LE8kRM024712 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:08:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LE6vYF012558 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:06:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LE6taP098807; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:06:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LE6paP098765 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:06:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f22.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.34]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8791F5EE033 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:06:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <00a901c46f2c$050a6cf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bananas, and costume too Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:07:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hurrah, you made my day, Bless you Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gail & Scott Finke" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 3:46 AM Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bananas, and costume too > > Thanks to you guys I have some very weird versions of an Elizabethan > Chiquita Banana costume flitting through my head. Luckily for the world, I > don't have any time to make one or place to wear it . . . > > Gail Finke > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 10:10:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LEAeRM024719 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:10:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LE4fYF012350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:04:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LE4daP097318; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:04:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LE4aaQ097280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:04:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6LE2CtY002555 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:02:12 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40FE77F2.1090006@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:04:34 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores References: <40FE712E.50301@in-tch.com> In-Reply-To: <40FE712E.50301@in-tch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sue Clemenger wrote: > I was wondering if > there were any differences in the type/quality/amount of allegorical > depictions when the medium is taken into account? Do some show up more > in illuminations and some more as glasswork or statuary? It's a good question, I think. The answer, though, is at right angles to what you've asked. If the image/statue is from a religious scene of any sort, that's when you have to be on the lookout for allegorical craziness. This is something I've learned from listening to Robin -- very useful information. She said recently in this forum "read the captions" which means don't just look at the image, gather everything you can from the context. Lots of images are scanned or published without the rest of the page that they came from, which if you read it, would tell you what was going on. Hunt down the context. Clearly there would be a big difference in reliability between, say, Adam and Eve having a picnic and Gaston Phoebus having a picnic on the hunt. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 10:33:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LEXaRM024817 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:33:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LEU0YF014808 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:30:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LETwaP015817; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:29:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LEThaP015568 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:29:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1ed.25d6d3ae (18707) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:29:34 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <1ed.25d6d3ae.2e2fd7ce@aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:29:34 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bananas, and costume too To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey.....has anyone mentioned Josephine Baker and her Banana Skirt yet in this thread? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 10:43:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LEhURM024844 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:43:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LEgpYF015900 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:42:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LEgmaP024952; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:42:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts6.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.164]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LEghaP024862 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:42:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.68.136.233]) by simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040721144228.NGIU10364.simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:42:28 -0400 Message-ID: <005e01c46f30$c69feee0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:41:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Santa Cruz X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi off topic request here: Is there anyone on this list that lives in or knows Santa Cruz fairly well? A friend of mine is going to be spending a couple of days there at the end of the month, and we need to find her someplace nice but inexpensive to stay. I have been trying to book her a room through the Hotel chain I work for, but so far no-one is giving me anything reasonable. Any ideas? Thanks guys! Sheridan *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely. Ogden Nash _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 11:24:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LFOFRM025080 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:24:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LFMTYF019461 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:22:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LFLeaP054179; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:21:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f44.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.94]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LFLLaP053939 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:21:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:21:10 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:21:10 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:21:10 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2004 15:21:10.0494 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A2B97E0:01C46F36] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have a question that pops up every so often (not for me, but for a friend of mine). In Virginia, starting in the 1660s and up to the 1770s, prices are given (much as they were in price regulations for London that I posted recently) for footwear. One price for common shoes, another price for "French Fall" shoes and a third price for boots. French Falls refer clearly to sometihing specific, likely worn by men women and children that are slightly more complex than regular shoes, but what are they? I figured that since this is, in fact, the Internet - I'd ask you all. Any ideas? (Note-the shoemaker at Williamsburg doesn't know what they are - HE's the guy I'm doing the looking around for :) ). Marc _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 12:27:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LGRNRM029843 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:27:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGQdYF026012 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:26:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGQVaP006599; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:26:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGMOaP003258 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:22:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id B88191802693 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:22:18 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.31) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 21 Jul 2004 16:20:13 -0000 Received: by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1075AE5BCD; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:22:12 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.66] by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:22:12 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:22:12 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.66 X-Originating-Server: ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040721162212.1075AE5BCD@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Marc, I have no idea but have you tried contacting the Bata Shoe Museum? They are extremely nice and helpful people. http://www.batashoemuseum.ca/ Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > I have a question that pops up every so often (not for me, but for a friend > of mine). > > In Virginia, starting in the 1660s and up to the 1770s, prices are given > (much as they were in price regulations for London that I posted recently) > for footwear. One price for common shoes, another price for "French Fall" > shoes and a third price for boots. French Falls refer clearly to sometihing > specific, likely worn by men women and children that are slightly more > complex than regular shoes, but what are they? > > I figured that since this is, in fact, the Internet - I'd ask you all. Any > ideas? > > (Note-the shoemaker at Williamsburg doesn't know what they are - HE's the > guy I'm doing the looking around for :) ). > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 12:29:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LGT3RM029859 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:29:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGRAYF026079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:27:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGR9aP007128; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:27:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGMVaP003361 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:22:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id C165F1800B21 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:22:25 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.31) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 21 Jul 2004 16:20:17 -0000 Received: by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 91000E5BC8; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:22:16 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.66] by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:22:16 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:22:16 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.66 X-Originating-Server: ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040721162216.91000E5BC8@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Marc, I have no idea but have you tried contacting the Bata Shoe Museum? They are extremely nice and helpful people. http://www.batashoemuseum.ca/ Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > I have a question that pops up every so often (not for me, but for a friend > of mine). > > In Virginia, starting in the 1660s and up to the 1770s, prices are given > (much as they were in price regulations for London that I posted recently) > for footwear. One price for common shoes, another price for "French Fall" > shoes and a third price for boots. French Falls refer clearly to sometihing > specific, likely worn by men women and children that are slightly more > complex than regular shoes, but what are they? > > I figured that since this is, in fact, the Internet - I'd ask you all. Any > ideas? > > (Note-the shoemaker at Williamsburg doesn't know what they are - HE's the > guy I'm doing the looking around for :) ). > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 12:31:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LGVcRM029884 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:31:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGTOYF026343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:29:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGTLaP008928; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:29:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGTGaP008786 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:29:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 3E5FA1802007 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:29:08 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.30) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 21 Jul 2004 16:27:03 -0000 Received: by ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3507086AE5; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:29:02 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.66] by ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:29:02 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:29:02 +0000 Subject: RE: [h-cost] princess seams?! was: contrasting gores X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.66 X-Originating-Server: ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040721162902.3507086AE5@ws7-1.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- > > Thanks for posting those pictures Jerusha. I am fascinated > > by the apparently princess seam in: > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg > > > > It is the woman seen from the back, directly to the right of > > the clerical type figure on the left. She has a russety > > coloured headdress. > > > > I realize that it can be difficult to use illuminations for > > fine details, but it is another log on the princess seam > > fire, I mean debate... > > Hey Danielle, > > It looks more likely to be a large armhole (like on the woman in the > bottom right corner) - there's apossible seam-mine visible coming out of > one of the underarm folds if you look closely (only *possibly*, though) > - in conjunction with a wide underarm to hem gore *or* a side seam > that's way too far back. > > Hard to tell either way. > > Teddy That may be Teddy, but I accomplished my goal. I got a thread going that was on-topic for costuming and doesn't have to do with food or any of the other threads that have been taking up so much space in my inbox. : ) Besides, frankly I don't have an opinion on the subject yet - I just don't know enough, I was just stirring the pot. Cheers, Danielle -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 12:33:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LGXSRM029903 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:33:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGVgYF026622 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:31:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGVfaP010828; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:31:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGTwaP009368 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:29:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1233764 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:29:52 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:29:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6LGTwaP009368 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Marc, I have no idea whatsoever, but your friend may want to contact Sally Queen, who just spent time researching purchases of shoes by George Washington. Or Edward Maeder, whom I've heard speak on shoes from the colonies. Sally has a website but I don't really know how to get hold of Edward, except that he'll (well, they both will) be lecturing at Costume College July 30-Aug 1. I'll bring your question with me and ask them if I can. Hopefully, you'll find an answer before that. LynnD On 7/21/04 8:21 AM, "Marc Carlson" wrote: > I have a question that pops up every so often (not for me, but for a friend > of mine). > > In Virginia, starting in the 1660s and up to the 1770s, prices are given > (much as they were in price regulations for London that I posted recently) > for footwear. One price for common shoes, another price for "French Fall" > shoes and a third price for boots. French Falls refer clearly to sometihing > specific, likely worn by men women and children that are slightly more > complex than regular shoes, but what are they? > > I figured that since this is, in fact, the Internet - I'd ask you all. Any > ideas? > > (Note-the shoemaker at Williamsburg doesn't know what they are - HE's the > guy I'm doing the looking around for :) ). > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 12:46:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LGkERM029961 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:46:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGjZYF027928 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:45:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LGjKaP021877; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:45:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41014.mail.yahoo.com (web41014.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.13]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6LGjBaP021767 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:45:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from tania_gr17@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040721164504.42230.qmail@web41014.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [62.79.63.35] by web41014.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:45:04 PDT Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:45:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Tania Gruning Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <000b01c46e61$84628a30$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne. I have exacly the same problem, I know what things are called in english, but I cannot find the word, if it exist for the same item in Danish Tania >From Denmark too Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: Yes you are right, but there also are problems about it. All my library is mostly english and costume related i know all the technical terms and words, but how about danish? I dont know 1/2 of it what it is called in danish, and that is so bothering for me. Cartridge pleating for instance, i have not a clue what that is called in danish. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Clemenger" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit > Linguistics is one big fascinating puzzle to me! I'm often sorry I > didn't get to study it in more depth in college. > One of the things I always enjoyed about studying languages is the whole > different "flavor" given to the world around me when working with > something else besides English, which is my native tongue. Of course, > that's what I also really, deeply enjoy about working with costuming and > textiles. It's good to look at our world from different perspectives.... > --sue > > Heather Rose Jones wrote: > > > At 1:14 PM -0400 7/19/04, Susan Farmer wrote: > > > >> > > >> > >>> So cucumbers and peppers are really fruits? > >> > >> > >> Yep. So are beans, peas, corn and wheat, etc. > > > > > > Mind you, this entire thread simply points out that we have two entirely > > different sets of labels for edible plant parts which, confusingly, use > > a lot of the same words. The botanist's terminology is based on plant > > anatomy while the cook's terminology is based on cultural patterns of > > culinary usage. Neither one is really more "correct" than the other, > > and using either in the opposite context will cause miscommunication. > > > > I always rather liked using the problem as an exercise for my students > > when studying conceptual categories in cognitive linguistics. > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 13:02:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LH2HRM030101 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:02:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LH1eYF029539 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:01:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LH1aaP035218; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:01:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f38.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.88]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LH1WaP035104 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:01:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:01:26 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:01:26 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:01:26 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2004 17:01:26.0456 (UTC) FILETIME=[5BF68B80:01C46F44] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: 17th-18th century costuming question... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" >I have no idea but have you tried contacting the Bata Shoe Museum? They >are extremely nice and helpful people. http://www.batashoemuseum.ca/ Not yet, but thank you. I figured I'd start here since there are people who focus on costuming for that period. I suspect that "French" is less a description of origin than it is an idiomatic slang statement of some sort (such as with "French Fry", "French Letter", etc.) I can find clear evidence of a "fall" being a tyle of coller, a sort of veil, and long cuffs, a wrestling hold, and so on, but nothing footwear related (although I do find the idea of a French Fall as a sort of dating maneuver sort of amusing in a twisted fashion...). Marc _________________________________________________________________ Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 13:59:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LHxORM016286 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:59:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LHvnYF005296 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:57:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LHvgaP081334; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LHvcaP081272 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:57:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6LITu5c070673 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:29:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6LITpDW070672 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:29:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407211829.i6LITpDW070672@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/flemishMielot_SalvationMirror.jpg > > > It's the woman in black -- depending on your monitor, you may or may > > not be able to see. I'm going to rescan this one at some point. > *snip* > > Here, although Church has the crown, she is seemingly dressed as a nun, > another frequent device for symbolizing the Church. However, given that in > the Church/Synogogue context, Church often in a sideless surcote > (sympolizing "queen"), I wouldn't be surprised if an artist grafted the > lines of a surcote right onto the nun's outfit to get the effect of both > of these clothing symbols. If that's what you're seeing here, please send > me the citation of the book you found this in, as I'll want to add this to > my "allegorical surcote usages" file! That was scanned from Flemish Miniatures from the 8th to the mid-16th century: The Medieval World on Parchment by M. Smeyers, published 1999. The image itself is in Chapter 6, page 318, plate 41. Annotation: Miroir de la salvation humaine, Bruges, 1455 -- Glasgow, University Library, MS Hunter 60, fol. 1 (302x215 mm) If you haven't seen this book, you *need* to! It's chock full of what I now understand to be allegorical sideless surcoats. SS that fit like a glove, SS with angel sleeves on the underdress, SS with sleeves ... When I started collecting images a little over a year ago, (all I wanted was a copy of Davenport in color, honest!) I didn't know what I was seeing other than it was Very Interesting (and different from other things that I knew) so I kept a copy. *snip* > > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/flemishRambures_WeddingParty0.jpg > > woman in blue with red mantle and gold trim along the edge/seam > > Susan, do you remember the part of my sideless surcote lecture in which I > show depictions of mid-15th c. brides costumed as queens, in crowns and > sideless surcotes? This woman is the bride at a wedding, robed as a queen > in surcote, crown, and ermine mantle. Depending on the time period, if > it's late enough in the 15th c., I suspect that this doesn't depict a real > wedding dress, but rather an illuminator's convention for identifying a > bride. The illuminator may not know how to paint a realistic surcote, but > he knows that the bride is supposed to wear one -- so he adds the two > curved lines and rondel decorations over a plain surface. He may even have > been copying an earlier manuscript, keeping the iconography intact but > "updating" the fashions to something more in keeping with the dress styles > he was used to painting. Yep, I sure do; and she is indeed a bride. That image is from the same book. "Wedding party of the son of Baldwin, count of Hainaut, and the daughter of the Duke of Champagne, Jocques des Guise" (Chapter 6, page 347, plate 83). citation: Jacques de Guise Histore des nobles princes de Hainaut (translated by Jean Wauquestin), Master of Rambures, ca. 1465-1470 -- Boulogne-sur-Mer, Biblioteque Municipale, ms 149II, fol 105 (420x310 mm). > The moral of the above cases: Read the captions! Always know who you're > looking at before you try to judge the reality or significance of the > costumes. I'm still not confident in my knowledge of Sideless Surcoats. Did you give an approximate date for Sideless Surcoats in your lecture -- when they were "real?" I can't remember -- and my notes are at home. The big problem with Learning Stuff -- the more you learn, the more you realize that you don't know! Susan/ Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 14:08:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LI8uRM017713 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:08:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LI8JYF006358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:08:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LI8HaP089875; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:08:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LI8BaP089795 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:08:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6LIeT5c070751 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:40:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6LIeTb3070750 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:40:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407211840.i6LIeTb3070750@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houp/ sleeveless shifts In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Susan Farmer wrote: > > > However, did you notice that some of the houppelandish things had different > > > colored bag sleeves with hanging sleeves that went to the floor? Like these > > > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008188.JPG > > > (you can open the link in a new window, just not the whole frame) > > > http://titan.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7008191.JPG > > I'm just catching up on this. You may know this already, but it's not > clear from your description above, so I'll state the obvious: The > different colored sleeves are almost certainly the sleeves of an > undergown, coming through armhole openings on the "houppelandish things," > which have sleeves that either hang from the shoulder or are very wide and > open, allowing the undergown sleeves to show prominently. In other words, > the different-color sleeves would not be attached to the houppelandish > overgarments. And I do know that now; I'd never seen sleevel like that on a houppeland -- they've allways been bell/angel-wing sleeves -- not that kind of hanging sleeve. > > The same sort of combination is here, in a well-known image: > http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/april.jpg > The woman in the blue brocaded overgown is wearing a gold undergown whose > sleeves are fully visible, because the overgown sleeves hang directly like > the shoulder. > > The images you showed appear to be slightly later, and the undergowns have > puffier sleeves in some cases, though in the two women in the second > image, the undergown sleeves are still tight. The overgowns with the > wide/hanging sleeves appear to be quite sumptuous and may indicate rank or > importance of the figures wearing them. > > Did I miss the citation on these images? Where are they from? What is the > story -- a romance? There's something about the faces that I think might > be a sign of location of the artist; it has a German feel in style. > Location might explain the interesting combination of elements here. The > men's costume has pleating like you see in Flanders in the 1460s, but the > women have houppelande necks that I'd place in the 1430s at the latest if > this were Flanders, so I'm getting conflicting time clues here! It's an Austrian Web Site -- so I *assume* they're from an Austrian MSS. Here's the note from the earlier message ... >>> A while back, we were talking about sleeveless shifts and I brought up one I ha d a picture of in a book. Well, I just found it on the Internet, although you'l l need directions to get there - it won't just make a easy link. The site is: http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/ and it is a very cool site for all sorts of medieval pictures, mostly from Austr ia or Eastern Europe. You start by selecting REALonline, which will open anothe r window. Under Kataloge, select Personennamen and hit Auswahlen. A list of na mes appears, starting with Aaron. At the very bottom, you can type in "Medea" a nd hit Zeige Bilder. A number of illuminations by Martin Opifex illustrating th e story of Jason and Medea will appear, with the shift about 10 down. <<< According to the web page, they document the MSS as 1445-1450. Austria must have been somewhat different. Susan/ Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 14:24:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LIOLRM017765 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:24:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LIMhYF007627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:22:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LIMfaP001458; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:22:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LIMRaP001265 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:22:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6LIsi5c070870 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:54:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6LIshtT070869 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:54:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407211854.i6LIshtT070869@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF91@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > I'd love to see it -- wonder if it's online anywhere. I know > > when I first saw some of the M. Francois illuminations from > > Augustine's City of God we were trying to figure out if they > > were gores or a split overskirt. *snip* > > Which ones can't you tell? It looks pretty obvious to me in all cases, > there are folds in the "gores"/underskirts that don't continue beyond > the edge of the main-fabric/overskirt spilt. You know, I think I only kept ones where it was obvious. *giggle* Here's one -- it's not obvious in her gown, but it is with the men. http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_DeathSocrates.jpg Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 15:07:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LJ7vRM027071 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:07:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJ7DYF011979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:07:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJ77aP037022; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:07:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJ75aP036876 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:07:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BnMQY-000580-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:06:54 +0100 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:05:54 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split References: <40FD7E75.5060707@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote > >On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > >> > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg >> >> I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall (others have argued that >> those things can't be ruffles, but they seem to behave just like them.) >> I think the white is either a fur edge or a fur ruffle -- there's an >> odd thought! > >Looks like a standard fur band to me, with texture painted in. The other >dresses do have ruffles, or whatever you want to call them. > >I've never heard anyone argue against them being something that functions >as what we would call a ruffle -- what have you heard? > >I've heard a couple of provocative ideas for their construction. One is >that the bottom is actually a straight band, but gathered across the top >to fit the slightly smaller distance around the bottom of the skirt, to >which it is attached. This would make sense if you can't get the full >length of the dress out of standard fabric widths. You would make it as >long as you can (in this case, about eight inches short of the floor), but >it would be a royal pain, and a waste, to cut a curved panel to piece on >for the necessary length. So you cut a straight strip and do the gathering >thing to maintain the necessary flare. > >The other interesting theory I've heard is that the dress is made rather >too long, and then tucked with a seam at that line. Given the wide skirt >flare, the lower part would be somewhat longer on the seam than the upper >part would be, so the difference is distributed with a gather. That would >technically mean it's all one piece, but suppose it's not inappropriate to >say that functionally it's a ruffle! I don't know what anyone else would >call it. > Do you have any theory as to why anyone would do this? These are not young girls who are going to grow and need their skirts lengthened, so presumably it would be decorative, done deliberately to produce that ruffled line? Jean >A third theory, which I don't put any stock in, is that all these women >have worn out their hems and have had to piece on new ones by adding a >strip of fabric. I don't see that being the case for depictions of >upper-class women who would not routinely be painting in patched or mended >clothing. > >I suppose there might be a problem with the word "ruffle" if people use it >to justify the Gunne Sax petticoat treatment. > >--Robin > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 15:12:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LJCSRM027994 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:12:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJBtYF012395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:11:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJBsaP040882; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:11:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJBqaP040829 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:11:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15138 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:16:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:16:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houp/ sleeveless shifts In-Reply-To: <200407211840.i6LIeTb3070750@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: I wrote: > > Did I miss the citation on these images? Where are they from? What is the > > story -- a romance? There's something about the faces that I think might > > be a sign of location of the artist; it has a German feel in style. > > Location might explain the interesting combination of elements here. The > > men's costume has pleating like you see in Flanders in the 1460s, but the > > women have houppelande necks that I'd place in the 1430s at the latest if > > this were Flanders, so I'm getting conflicting time clues here! > > It's an Austrian Web Site -- so I *assume* they're from an Austrian MSS. > Here's the note from the earlier message ... > According to the web page, they document the MSS as 1445-1450. > Austria must have been somewhat different. Yes, that would explain it. I had Austria in my head when I wrote "German feel in style" but didn't want to make to too specific a guess! I wish now that I had ;-) though I'm more often wrong when it comes to that region's internal distinctions. Thanks for the links -- I must have missed that part of the conversation, or skimmed it and didn't follow the links because I was in a rush at the time. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 15:30:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LJUfRM003031 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:30:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJTpYF014236 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:29:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJTosN054949; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:29:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJTbsN054715 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:29:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rampant_peacock@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.205.143 ([204.127.205.143]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004072119293001600bf7hfe>; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:29:30 +0000 Received: from [198.91.8.10] by 204.127.205.143; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:29:29 +0000 From: rampant_peacock@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:29:29 +0000 Message-Id: <072120041929.3189.40FEC4190006182500000C752200763704050C010C0E0A9FA19B020E9F030E9D@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: cmFtcGFudF9wZWFjb2NrQGNvbWNhc3QubmV0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually the first play done at White Hall, Judi is in that scene and I believe the gown is white. Been a while since I've seen it and she gets almost no screen time as they are concentrating on Paltrow and Finnes. Molly -------------- Original message -------------- > At 11:33 AM 7/20/2004 +0100, you wrote: > >Could it have been intended to parody a different > >dress worn by Judi in the film, she didn't wear the peacock one in every > >scene, did she? > > > >Teddy > > > There was only one scene I recall from that movie (Shakespeare in Love) > with Judi in it, at the theatre "in disguise" and then she goes out to her > carriage with the big puddle at her feet. > > I gotta watch that movie again. Just for the fun of it. > > Kimiko > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 15:31:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LJV6RM003141 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:31:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJTTYF014186 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:29:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJTPsN054624; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:29:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJTMsN054537 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:29:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f22.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.34]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CE4C5EE034 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:29:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000601c46f59$077a8920$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:29:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] lace sleaves dilemma X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, When you look at this portrait, http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/es3eng.htm I think it is a little out of proportions. I have made 2 lace ruffles wich are 10 cm. wide each. This gives 20 cm. in all + i also must have space for the puff sleave. When i look at my reproduktion, it looks as if the lace ruffles should be bigger to match the actual portrait, but if i made the lace wider, the sleave would have to be longer. What do you think. Dont you think that a ruffle with 10 cm. would be fine? Making a copy is much more difficult than you would imagine! Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 15:34:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LJYFRM004315 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:34:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJXRYF014578 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:33:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJXQsN057926; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:33:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJXMsN057887 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:33:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.154.16.78.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.154.16.78]) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BnMq7-0000rI-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:33:19 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:31:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Another theory: The gown is completely lined, and the lining is turned up over the outside, making an outside hem. (If you just extend the angle of the dress for the lining, you would have to adjust by taking tiny gathers.) As an added bonus, when the hem of your lining wears out, it would be possible to cut off the lining, exposing the undamaged bottom of the gown itself, thus lengthening the life of the gown. Grace/Jessamyn not a member of the "ruffle" camp > From: Robin Netherton > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:58:12 -0500 (CDT) > To: Historical Costume > Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split > > > On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > >>> http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_WomenJupiter.jpg >> >> I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall (others have argued that >> those things can't be ruffles, but they seem to behave just like them.) >> I think the white is either a fur edge or a fur ruffle -- there's an >> odd thought! > > Looks like a standard fur band to me, with texture painted in. The other > dresses do have ruffles, or whatever you want to call them. > > I've never heard anyone argue against them being something that functions > as what we would call a ruffle -- what have you heard? > > I've heard a couple of provocative ideas for their construction. One is > that the bottom is actually a straight band, but gathered across the top > to fit the slightly smaller distance around the bottom of the skirt, to > which it is attached. This would make sense if you can't get the full > length of the dress out of standard fabric widths. You would make it as > long as you can (in this case, about eight inches short of the floor), but > it would be a royal pain, and a waste, to cut a curved panel to piece on > for the necessary length. So you cut a straight strip and do the gathering > thing to maintain the necessary flare. > > The other interesting theory I've heard is that the dress is made rather > too long, and then tucked with a seam at that line. Given the wide skirt > flare, the lower part would be somewhat longer on the seam than the upper > part would be, so the difference is distributed with a gather. That would > technically mean it's all one piece, but suppose it's not inappropriate to > say that functionally it's a ruffle! I don't know what anyone else would > call it. > > A third theory, which I don't put any stock in, is that all these women > have worn out their hems and have had to piece on new ones by adding a > strip of fabric. I don't see that being the case for depictions of > upper-class women who would not routinely be painting in patched or mended > clothing. > > I suppose there might be a problem with the word "ruffle" if people use it > to justify the Gunne Sax petticoat treatment. > > --Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 15:39:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LJdYRM006873 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:39:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJcQYF015018 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:38:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJcLsN061752; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:38:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJcIsN061705 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:38:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ABD52160B for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:38:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p663.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.213.156]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E26CAC5E7 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:38:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:38:32 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] ruffles (no ridges) was: contrasting gores vs. split X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It is possible that one woman may have done the replacement of the lower part of her dress and others liked the look and made their newer dresses with that feature. Thus with that is mind puts a little credence to the theory. As for it being the sole reason for its function is knocked down by the fact the most of the figures that have the "ruffle", show that the ruffle matches the dress. I can not find the URL but there is a picture where the "ruffle" hemmed dress looks like it is of sheer material which would indicate that somewhere along the line it became decorative for some. De -----Original Message----- A third theory, which I don't put any stock in, is that all these women have worn out their hems and have had to piece on new ones by adding a strip of fabric. I don't see that being the case for depictions of upper-class women who would not routinely be painting in patched or mended clothing. I suppose there might be a problem with the word "ruffle" if people use it to justify the Gunne Sax petticoat treatment. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 15:48:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LJmMRM010839 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:48:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJjOYF015593 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:45:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJjLsN067220; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:45:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJjFsN067150 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:45:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15416 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:49:41 -0500 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:49:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] ruffles (no ridges) was: contrasting gores vs. split In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, otsisto wrote: > It is possible that one woman may have done the replacement of the > lower part of her dress and others liked the look and made their newer > dresses with that feature. Thus with that is mind puts a little > credence to the theory. As for it being the sole reason for its > function is knocked down by the fact the most of the figures that have > the "ruffle", show that the ruffle matches the dress. I can not find > the URL but there is a picture where the "ruffle" hemmed dress looks > like it is of sheer material which would indicate that somewhere along > the line it became decorative for some. If you ever find that, I'd like to see it. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 15:50:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LJoCRM011783 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:50:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJnCYF015913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:49:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJn7sN070199; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:49:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LJmwsN070109 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:48:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC33F27A2C for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:48:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p663.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.213.156]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 57E47C5F3 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:48:46 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:49:06 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF93@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- > (A) Split skirts. Besides the gray, the pink also has a princess seam. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_GodsWill.jpg I don't see a "princess" seam on the pink, just a huge armhole seam. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I can see how you see it as a large arm hole. Probably is, but the way the shading goes it could go down the back and the curve from that point to indicate an armhole could be a underarm fold of fabric. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 16:27:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LKRvRM024126 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:27:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LKR4YF019695 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:27:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LKQxsN000253; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:27:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail3.mdx.safepages.com (mail3.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LKQssN000105 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:26:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail3.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id F352B8951A; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:26:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust168.tnt2.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.178.168]) by mail3.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BD9EC89577 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:21:25 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <01dc01c46f60$8b85c5c0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:23:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Welp, this is an extra-late reply, so I won't even bother quoting. How early was metal used as a stiffening in corsets? At least as early as 1588: "...to have a straight spangolised body, what pinching, what girding, what cingling, will they not endure; yea sometimes with yron-plates.... Even as women ... make trunk-sleeves of wyre...." Also, the effigy corset has two metal bones. However, a lot of different stiffening methods were used during the first few decades of the corset; metal wasn't _widely_ used until the mid-19thC. Mentions of it show up in the 18thC, as well as mentions of steel busks, and 'steel' is a commonly understood indicator of bodice stiffening, but until the mid 19thC metal seem to have been used very sparingly, to provide stiffness in one or two key places. What about those extant iron corsets? Well, the yron-plates reference does suggest that they were used to get the conical look; however, more specific mention of corsets made entirely of metal seems to come only from medical references. Ambroise Pare' (c1510-90) was a French army surgeon famous for modernizing surgery; he described metal corsets in his work as being used "to amend the crookednesse of the Bodie": "In order to correct and to hide such a defect, they will be made to wear iron corsets which shall be full of holes so that they will not be so heavy, and they will be well fitted and padded so as not to hurt at all, amd will be changed often if the patient ... [is] still growing." This description matches perfectly with extant iron corsets, such as the one dating to c1590 in the Musee' National du Moyen Age in Paris. Incidentally, Pare' was an opponent of the use of corsetry for fashionable purposes. (That 'Catherine de Medici' metal corset/corset cover with the insanely small waist at the FIT is almost certainly a forgery, by the way!) Oh, and yep, from all I've been able to find, the basquine was the ancestor of the corset. -E _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 16:43:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LKh5RM030699 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:43:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LKgNYF021200 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:42:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LKgKsN012629; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:42:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.75]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LKgEsN012559 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:42:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from purplkat@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.15]) by mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I17000NTYTOPF@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [167.206.5.47] (Forwarded-For: [167.206.224.2]) by mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mshttpd); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:41:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:41:57 -0400 From: purplkat@optonline.net Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... To: Historical Costume Message-id: <212c48212ca8.212ca8212c48@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO *blink, blink, blink* Maeder? I have only heard of 1 other person with that spelling (besides me). hhmmmm I wonder if they are related to my Paternal Grandfather Henry Maeder....?? Kat who should keep her mind on important things ----- Original Message ----- From: Lynn Downward Or > Edward Maeder, whom I've heard speak on shoes from the colonies. > Sally has a > website but I don't really know how to get hold of Edward, except > that he'll > (well, they both will) be lecturing at Costume College July 30-Aug > LynnD _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 16:43:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LKhbRM031008 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:43:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LKgnYF021245 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:42:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LKglsN013043; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:42:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51302.mail.yahoo.com (web51302.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.168]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6LKghsN012924 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:42:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040721204237.65406.qmail@web51302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.60.172.50] by web51302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:42:37 PDT Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:42:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli Subject: Re: [h-cost]medieval ruffles/ contrasting gores vs. split To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <200407211219.i6LCJ1hB067468@sabre.goldsword.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's a "Bathsheba", around mid-15th century, whose attendant either has a self-ruffle or a nearly transparent overlay--I can't tell on any image I've seen of it. > > >>I'm a believer in the "ruffle" camp overall by a rough guesstimate, up to 3% of images in M. Meiss's "Painting in the Age of Charles of Berry: The Limbourgs and their Contemporaries" show the ruffle-thing at the hem--mostly of the supporting layer gown, Not counting the fur hems that were depicted commonly on outer layers. Ann in CT __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 17:16:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LLGTRM031457 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:16:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LLFUYF024068 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:15:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LLFPsN039375; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:15:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LLFLsN039299 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:15:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0035.dialsprint.net ([63.186.144.35]) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BnOQq-0007QD-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:15:20 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:16:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: 17th-18th century costuming question... From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Would a total guess be in order? Do you think it might refer to a top (or tongue) extended far enough up toward the ankle to be folded forward? I'm not looking at any sources but just toying with the idea of the fringed ornamentation on the "brogues" of my college days and melding it with the uses of "fall" in such things as falling collars and cuffs, as you mention. Did such a treatment occur in that period? Sorry to speculate with no historical basis, but I have no sources on shoes and no books on that period to look at. Just idly fantasizing here at the computer late in the afternoon.... Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer on 7/21/04 1:01 PM, Marc Carlson at marccarlson20@hotmail.com wrote: >> From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" >> I have no idea but have you tried contacting the Bata Shoe Museum? They >> are extremely nice and helpful people. http://www.batashoemuseum.ca/ > > Not yet, but thank you. I figured I'd start here since there are people who > focus on costuming for that period. > > I suspect that "French" is less a description of origin than it is an > idiomatic slang statement of some sort (such as with "French Fry", "French > Letter", etc.) I can find clear evidence of a "fall" being a tyle of > coller, a sort of veil, and long cuffs, a wrestling hold, and so on, but > nothing footwear related (although I do find the idea of a French Fall as a > sort of dating maneuver sort of amusing in a twisted fashion...). > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 18:01:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LM19RM031778 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:01:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LLs5YF027396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:54:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LLs0sN069508; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:54:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LLrvsN069365 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:53:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1235332 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:53:48 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:53:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <212c48212ca8.212ca8212c48@optonline.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Edward Maeder worked at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) for several years, moved to the shoe museum that Marc mentioned earlier and wrote the book about Hollywood historic costumes. He's a great speaker. I can't speak about his parentage. LynnD On 7/21/04 1:41 PM, "purplkat@optonline.net" wrote: > > *blink, blink, blink* > > Maeder? > > I have only heard of 1 other person with that spelling (besides me). > > hhmmmm I wonder if they are related to my Paternal Grandfather Henry > Maeder....?? > > Kat > who should keep her mind on important things > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lynn Downward > > Or >> Edward Maeder, whom I've heard speak on shoes from the colonies. >> Sally has a >> website but I don't really know how to get hold of Edward, except >> that he'll >> (well, they both will) be lecturing at Costume College July 30-Aug > >> LynnD > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 19:52:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6LNqqRM000627 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:52:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LNq2YF006959 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:52:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LNptsN052690; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:51:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav141.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6LNppsN052608 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:51:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:51:44 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav141.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:51:44 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "h-costume_indra_com" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:51:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:51:43 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2004 23:51:44.0381 (UTC) FILETIME=[AD63CAD0:01C46F7D] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Ruffles and hems (long) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6LNqqRM000627 Status: RO I can't send a direct link to the page, but if you go to the early manuscripts of Oxford http://image.ox.ac.uk/ . Bodleian Library and MS 264 ( The Romance of Alexander), you will see some interesting "ruffles" at the bottom of the page of folio 97 verso. The noble ladies don't have them (but they do have some interesting sideless surcoats) but the common ladies have pieces of different colors sewn on to the bottoms of their white underdresses? chemises? shifts? I think the idea is to just use more expensive fabric where it shows but these women are mostly defeating the purpose when they hike their skirts up to the waist for dancing. This manuscript was done by a Flemish illuminator between 1338-1344. It is just filled with interesting dress pictures and pictures of the courtly and the common engaged in different activites. Be warned, these files are enormous, which means the detail is super clear, but if you don't have a high speed line, get a snack before you start! A picture in the Mannesse Codex seems to show a turned-up hem - the effect is rather different from the ruffles. Find it here - http://www.manesse.de/manesse0-9.shtml by going to Tafel 126. It seems just the thing for long skirts if your boyfriend insists on taking you hiking through the hills. >The other interesting theory I've heard is that the dress is made rather >too long, and then tucked with a seam at that line. Given the wide skirt >flare, the lower part would be somewhat longer on the seam than the upper >part would be, so the difference is distributed with a gather. That would >technically mean it's all one piece, but suppose it's not inappropriate to >say that functionally it's a ruffle! I don't know what anyone else would >call it. > Do you have any theory as to why anyone would do this? These are not young girls who are going to grow and need their skirts lengthened, so presumably it would be decorative, done deliberately to produce that ruffled line? In my opinion, the ruffles are in fact a tuck line and the reason is that after walking around outdoors in a skirt that is longer than floor length, the bottom of a dress gets really ruined fairly fast. Even the wealthy would want to get more than 3 or 4 wearings out of a dress. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 20:17:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M0HORM000764 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:17:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M0BpYF008477 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:11:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M0BlsN064384; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:11:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51106.mail.yahoo.com (web51106.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6M0BgsN064307 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:11:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040722001136.13944.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.250.77] by web51106.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:11:36 PDT Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:11:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Merideth Subject: Re: [h-cost] Elderberries To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20040721082053.5386.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And as for berry stains, I wish I knew what set of circumstantial chemicals are in place whenever inadvertant stains become completely colourfast! Same as curry stains - use tumeric deliberately, and it fades. Spill curry down your white t-shirt (or T-tunic) and it's there for ever. Freyalyn Yea, funny about that huh? Where ever you want it, it fades, where you don't...it stays forever. One of the mysteries of life I guess. I have a big elderberry tree outside right next to where my computer is, it looks like I'll be getting a bumper crop this year, I'll have to do some experimenting. Cheri Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 20:44:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M0iqRM000920 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:44:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M0iJYF010677 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:44:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M0iDsN083017; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:44:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.188]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6M0iCsN082997 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:44:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net) Received: from unknown (HELO lazear1) (cabbagerose@sbcglobal.net@67.118.230.145 with login) by smtp809.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2004 00:44:10 -0000 Message-ID: <00a501c46f85$01ebf170$91e67643@lazear1> From: "Cabbage Rose Costumes" To: "Historical Costume" References: <005e01c46f30$c69feee0$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Santa Cruz Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:44:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Only place I've stayed there is the "Babbling Brook" which is an incredible B&B but will run upwards of $200 per night or thereabouts. I have a friend who just took her kids there and I think she did the reasonable Motel route, I can ask her tomorrow if you don't find something by then. angela +++++ Angela F. Lazear Cabbage Rose Costumes www.cabbagerosecostumes.com Theatrical Costume Design "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none: be able for thine enemy rather in power than use, and keep thy friend under thy own life's key: be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech..." W. Shakespeare ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:41 AM Subject: [h-cost] Santa Cruz > Hi > off topic request here: > > Is there anyone on this list that lives in or knows Santa Cruz fairly well? > A friend of mine is going to be spending a couple of days there at the end > of the month, and we need to find her someplace nice but inexpensive to > stay. I have been trying to book her a room through the Hotel chain I work > for, but so far no-one is giving me anything reasonable. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks guys! > > Sheridan > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > You are only young once, > but you can stay immature indefinitely. > > Ogden Nash > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 21:18:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M1IfRM001031 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:18:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M1BoYF012497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:11:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M1BjsN098496; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:11:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.119]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M1BhsN098474 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:11:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-40-141.jps.net ([209.165.40.141] helo=KALC) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BnS7b-00011E-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:11:43 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: OT - RE: [h-cost] Santa Cruz Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:11:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <005e01c46f30$c69feee0$cb6afea9@sherry> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The Best Western Inn Scotts Valley has rooms for two adults starting at $90. Scotts Valley is a nice little town maybe 15 to 20 minutes from Santa Cruz. Lisa Sinervo -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Shane & Sheridan Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:41 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Santa Cruz Hi off topic request here: Is there anyone on this list that lives in or knows Santa Cruz fairly well? A friend of mine is going to be spending a couple of days there at the end of the month, and we need to find her someplace nice but inexpensive to stay. I have been trying to book her a room through the Hotel chain I work for, but so far no-one is giving me anything reasonable. Any ideas? Thanks guys! Sheridan *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely. Ogden Nash _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 21:33:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M1XmRM001115 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:33:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M1RnYF013663 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:27:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M1RksN007936; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:27:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M1RXsO007681 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:27:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6M1SluV010887 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:28:48 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost]medieval ruffles/ contrasting gores vs. split Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:33:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407210202.i6L22mvH062986@sabre.goldsword.com> <200407202355.30328.cathy@thyrsus.com> <40FE4598.3010801@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <40FE4598.3010801@thibault.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407212133.51542.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 21 July 2004 6:29 am, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: [snip] > > Do you really think so? I have some of the old Medieval Women calendars, > > and I never interpreted those images as anything like a ruffle. Can you > > come up with an example or two of what you mean other than the M. > > Francois images? > > The one I recall most clearly has a low wall of large bricks, with women > in blue and red and gold/black brocade, fancy heart-shaped hats. It was > a full page illustration. I'll dig out my old Medieval Women calendars and see if I can find it. Thanks. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 21:58:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M1wCRM001163 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:58:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M1uFYF015823 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:56:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M1uCsN024764; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:56:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M1uAsO024747 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:56:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6M1vMNi012129 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:57:25 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:02:26 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407212202.26826.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 21 July 2004 12:40 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > > I've never heard anyone argue against them being something that > > > functions as what we would call a ruffle -- what have you heard? > > > > [snip] > > > > What do you mean by "functions as a ruffle"? > > Um, a strip of cloth that's gathered at the top where it attaches to the > hem of a garment? In other words, given some of the construction theories > I outlined, its method of cutting or its purpose may not have been the > same as, say, the ruffle on the bottom of my comfy winter nightgown, but > once it's there, it ends up being essentially the same as something that a > modern person, asked to name it, would call a ruffle. Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't trying to be obstreperous; I really wasn't clear about what you meant, and I wanted to understand what you were saying before commenting further. > I suppose "functions" might not have been the best term for me to use, if > you're looking at the possible purposes for which it was placed. Modern > people tend to see a ruffle as a decorative element. We can only guess at > the medieval purposes. It might well have been a functional element, to > lengthen fabric or shorten it (see the hypotheses I suggested in my post). > But it still ends up being what we'd call a "ruffle" if we had to put a > technical name to the mechanics by which it hangs from the skirt. > > I'm open to different readings, though. Fair enough. (When you said "function" I was thinking of Victorian dresses where ruffles are sometimes added on the underside of a train to take stress off the dress fabric and offer some protection from dust.) Whether the function is decorative or functional, though, it seems to me that a ruffle needs to consist of a significantly longer piece of material than the hem to which it is sewn. If it isn't gathered, it is not, in my opinion, a ruffle. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 22:06:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M26GRM001191 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:06:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M23lYF016427 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:03:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M23jsN029074; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:03:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M23fsO029023 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:03:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6M24qcq012494 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:04:55 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:09:57 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF90@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF90@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407212209.57032.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 21 July 2004 6:46 am, Teddy wrote: [snip] > I see it a lot in late 14th and 15th Century re-eactment costumes here > in England and think it's a costuming myth. I've never seen any > pictures from the period depicting it. > > Someone, somewhere got the wrong idea about particolouring. They didn't > have enough of one fabric to make a full gown so instead of making it > half-and-half, made the main gown in one colour and made the skirts > fuller by adding gores of another. Someone else saw it, liked it and > copied it.... and thus a classic garb myth is born. Sometimes they have > the sleeves in the same colour as the gores. The only place I've seen it was in a gown that renstore.com used to sell. :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 22:10:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M2AGRM001200 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:10:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M27mYF016883 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:07:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M27lsN031323; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:07:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M27hsO031261 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:07:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6M28wKn012711 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:08:58 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:14:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF93@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FF93@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407212214.01940.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=PLING_QUERY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 21 July 2004 7:38 am, Teddy wrote: [snip] > > (A) Split skirt. Felicite -either she has a matching blue > > sideless on or she has princess seams. > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortun > e.jpg > > That one is a puzzler. Frankly, I can't see enough of the relevant areas of "Felicite's" gown around that red cloak wrapped around her to see whether there's anything like a princess seam or not. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 22:19:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M2JlRM001242 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:19:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2JBYF018449 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:19:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2J5sN037943; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:19:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2J1sO037911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:19:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6M2KGMs013269 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:20:16 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost]medieval ruffles/ contrasting gores vs. split Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:25:20 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407210202.i6L22mvH062986@sabre.goldsword.com> <200407202355.30328.cathy@thyrsus.com> <40FE4598.3010801@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <40FE4598.3010801@thibault.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407212225.20391.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 21 July 2004 6:29 am, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > >>There's ruffles in other artist's images. Particularly an image of > >>noble women doing manual labor in one of the old Medieval Women > >> calendars. > > > > Do you really think so? I have some of the old Medieval Women calendars, > > and I never interpreted those images as anything like a ruffle. Can you > > come up with an example or two of what you mean other than the M. > > Francois images? > > The one I recall most clearly has a low wall of large bricks, with women > in blue and red and gold/black brocade, fancy heart-shaped hats. It was > a full page illustration. I have 1992-1997 inclusive, and 2001 & 2002 of the "Medieval Women" calendars, but I haven't found anything like what you're describing, yet. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 22:28:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M2SWRM001278 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:28:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2RZYF019060 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:27:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2RYsN042847; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:27:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shadow.csufresno.edu (relay-1.csufresno.edu [129.8.57.22]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2RUsN042769 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:27:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by shadow.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8860CA722 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040721192412.023d7008@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:25:12 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie In-Reply-To: <072120041929.3189.40FEC4190006182500000C752200763704050C01 0C0E0A9FA19B020E9F030E9D@comcast.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 07:29 PM 7/21/2004 +0000, you wrote: >Actually the first play done at White Hall, Judi is in that scene and I >believe the gown is white. Been a while since I've seen it and she gets >almost no screen time as they are concentrating on Paltrow and Finnes. >Molly Oh, right, the scene where they flash to her and she is asleep snoring, if I remember right. Thanks Molly. I really got to get that DVD out and watch it... maybe tonight while I am painting fabric (my latest non-costume project). Kimiko _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 22:29:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M2TJRM001284 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:29:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2ShYF019166 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:28:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2SgsN043490; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:28:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ns3.linuxwebnet.com (ns3.linuxwebnet.com [216.133.76.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6M2ScsN043438 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:28:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from judymitch@oldwaylane.net) Received: (qmail 24092 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2004 03:03:10 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.249.195.127.dial1.washington2.level3.net (HELO oldwaylane.net) (4.249.195.127) by shada.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2004 03:03:10 -0000 Message-ID: <40FF25E4.2080800@oldwaylane.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:26:44 -0400 From: Judy Mitchell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit References: <008301c46f2b$5b5a7bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <008301c46f2b$5b5a7bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Yes excatly my problems two. In my textile history group they call gilted > purl for spirals, but in fact i did find a danish term or rather the german > term wich was used in Denmark wich is Kantille threads or is it french :-) > > There is a term for cartridge pleats in Danish, I believe I ran into it trying to translate my info on my Ringjobing dress. I just have to find my notes and dig through them. I'll let you know when/if I find it. -Judy Mitchell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 22:30:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M2UcRM001303 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:30:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2SZYF019141 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:28:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2SZsN043423; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:28:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6M2SWsN043409 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:28:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 11206 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2004 02:29:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2004 02:29:08 -0000 Received: from 162.119.64.110 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com); by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <48676.162.119.64.110.1090463311.squirrel@162.119.64.110> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I have a question that pops up every so often (not for me, but for a > friend > of mine). > > In Virginia, starting in the 1660s and up to the 1770s, prices are given > (much as they were in price regulations for London that I posted recently) > for footwear. One price for common shoes, another price for "French Fall" > shoes and a third price for boots. French Falls refer clearly to > sometihing > specific, likely worn by men women and children that are slightly more > complex than regular shoes, but what are they? I know that "front fall" pants are the type of men's pants that have a flap that buttons at both corners. When unbuttoned, the flap "falls" forward. \ Given that info, I would suspect that "french fall" shoes are the ones with a large tongue that folds down from the ankle and goes almost to the toes. Also, I think there can be a buckle on top for decoration. Hope that helps! Diana Diana Habra www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 22:39:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M2d7RM001360 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:39:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2c2YF019772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:38:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2c0sN048884; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:38:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2btsO048826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:37:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.165]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i6M2h7Up015048 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:43:08 +1000 Message-ID: <00c501c46f95$039c4640$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040722001136.13944.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Stains - was Elderberries Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:38:44 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO For the same reason I have a policy that when wearing reenactment clothing, my family try not to eat things that will leave unauthentic-looking stains. It's usually OK when at camping events or banquets (where our groups provide only authentic foods), but my boys to be very careful at fetes. I really don't want tomato sauce stains on their linen shirts/undertunics when I've spent so much time handsewed them. Thankfully they have both got dark-coloured outerclothing for our main periods - not so many problems there! The kids think it amusing that I don't worry about them running around in the mud, but ask them to be ultra-careful with chocolate and tomatos. Glenda. > > And as for berry stains, I wish I knew what set of circumstantial chemicals are in place whenever inadvertant stains become completely colourfast! Same as curry stains - use tumeric deliberately, and it fades. Spill curry down your white t-shirt (or T-tunic) and it's there for ever. > > Freyalyn > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 21 22:46:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M2kgRM001386 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:46:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2f7YF020013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:41:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M2f7sN050699; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:41:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (smtp1.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6M2f2sN050649 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:41:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-6500); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:38:30 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp1.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:38:30 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040721193422.0119e870@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:40:50 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost]medieval ruffles/ contrasting gores vs. split In-Reply-To: <200407212225.20391.cathy@thyrsus.com> References: <40FE4598.3010801@thibault.org> <200407210202.i6L22mvH062986@sabre.goldsword.com> <200407202355.30328.cathy@thyrsus.com> <40FE4598.3010801@thibault.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:25 PM 7/21/2004 -0400, you wrote: >On Wednesday 21 July 2004 6:29 am, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > > Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > >>There's ruffles in other artist's images. Particularly an image of > > >>noble women doing manual labor in one of the old Medieval Women > > >> calendars. >[snip] > > > > The one I recall most clearly has a low wall of large bricks, with women > > in blue and red and gold/black brocade, fancy heart-shaped hats. It was > > a full page illustration. > >I have 1992-1997 inclusive, and 2001 & 2002 of the "Medieval Women" >calendars, >but I haven't found anything like what you're describing, yet. > >-- >Cathy Raymond I have the book "Trades and Crafts in Medieval Manuscripts" by Patricia Basing. Published 1990. ISBN 1-56131-002-6. Plate XI shows a woman in a gown with a definite ruffle that looks to be about from mid-calf to shoe-top length. The caption is "Lay-sister preparing medicine. Guyart des Moulins, Bible Historiale. Bruges; 1470. Royal MS 15 D I, f.18 (detail). The figure in question is on the right side of the picture; her dress is salmon-pink, and she is wearing a white apron. Joan Jurancich _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 00:53:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M4rJRM001832 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:53:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M4qWYF000325 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:52:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M4qOsN023745; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:52:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6M4qKsN023716 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:52:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 31353 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2004 04:52:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2004 04:52:56 -0000 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com); by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1039.24.4.69.40.1090471939.squirrel@24.4.69.40> In-Reply-To: <40FF25E4.2080800@oldwaylane.net> References: <008301c46f2b$5b5a7bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <40FF25E4.2080800@oldwaylane.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:52:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Costume College X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello Everyone, Well, nobody has said much until now but I just have to gush now. It is only 1 1/2 weeks until Costume College and I am VERY EXCITED!! I am looking forward to seeing other H-Costumers there and spending time with others who understand my hobby. Would folks like to wear the scarlet "H" again this year? Do we want to try to get together at some point? What do those of you who are going think? Diana (who is doing the happy dance because she is excited about the event and who desperately needs a long weekend off work!) Diana Habra www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 01:05:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M55NRM001845 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:05:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M54OYF001249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:04:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M54MsN030784; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:04:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M54KsN030751 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:04:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA18964 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:08:49 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:08:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Ruffles and hems (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, JAMES OGILVIE wrote: > I can't send a direct link to the page, but if you go to the early > manuscripts of Oxford http://image.ox.ac.uk/ . Bodleian Library and MS > 264 ( The Romance of Alexander), you will see some interesting > "ruffles" at the bottom of the page of folio 97 verso. The noble > ladies don't have them (but they do have some interesting sideless > surcoats) but the common ladies have pieces of different colors sewn > on to the bottoms of their white underdresses? chemises? shifts? I > think the idea is to just use more expensive fabric where it shows but > these women are mostly defeating the purpose when they hike their > skirts up to the waist for dancing. I love this manuscript. To get directly to the index page, go here: http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleian&manuscript=msbodl264 I have dial-up, and some months ago I ended up going to a library that had broadband so I could go through the whole thing and take notes on the images I needed for the project I was working on at the time. Those images with the colored hem bands are a puzzler, aren't they? When I first saw them, I thought the same thing: That the lower band was put on a skirt of another fabric, perhaps a cheaper one used where it wouldn't show. There are certainly costume books that say this was done, presumably based on images such as this, but I don't know of any primary evidence for the practice, so I view that theory with the usual caution. That is: maybe, maybe not, we won't know till we get something solid to go on. There's one image on that page, though, that suggests another possibility. Look at the woman on the lower right, third from the right. She's squatting, and it appears that the white section stands out separately at the bottom from the yellow longer part. The yellow is clearly the underdress; it matches her sleeves. So we're looking at two layers here. At first I thought the white layer might be an apron, worn over the underdress for normal daily work, and the overdress routinely put on over the dress without the apron being removed. A bit odd, maybe, but not an inconceivable idea, if you stretch. But what about her surcote? It's a dark bluish grey, but it appears to end at her hip, in a small roll. It looked odd to me, till suddenly my eye resolved the image into something else. Try this idea on for size: Perhaps these women are wearing fur-lined overgowns that have been folded back up to show the lining. Note that every single one is kilted up at the waist in some way, but there doesn't seem to be enough bulk to account for the skirt. However, if you assume that the skirt was folded back at about knee-length and the hem was tucked, tied, or wrapped around the waist, that would show the lining of the lower half of the overdress in the position we see that white area. (It would also suggest very long gowns, but I've noticed that this particular artist is not very careful about proportions, and not very precise in drawing technique. He could simply have been capturing the impression of the folded-up dresses -- with a lump at the hip, a big white swath that ends at the knee, and the underdress showing from below that.) Supporting this reading is the fact that on every one of these curious images, the middle section is white. Based on the way clothing is normally depicted, that would most likely mean either undyed linen or white fur (and only rarely would suggest white fabric of another type). Some of the dresses also show a white sleeve lining that is almost certainly fur. White fur was *the* fashionable color and widely used for linings by the nobility at this period. So if the artist were trying to show skirt linings, he would most likely choose white, universally. Note also that each of these white areas has a series of small lines along the bottom edge. It might be stitching, or a weird sort of reverse gather, but if you read this as a folded-up skirt, it could be the rippling of the folded edge. Now, I could be wrong, and I haven't been through the whole manuscript to see if other images are consistent with this. But if it's a viable interpretation, that turns the reading from "women revealing that they skimped on the expensive fabric on their underdresses" to "noblewomen who are rich enough to have fur-lined overdresses." Which brings me back to your description of the image, quoted above. Is there some reason to think that the figures with the white parts are "common women" and the rest are noble -- that is, some reason other than the fact that they have skirts depicted this way? They all look noble to me -- same hairstyles, and of course those white fur sleeve linings. Back to ruffles -- and in passing I should note that the Romance of Alexander dates from about 1340 maybe 100 years earlier than the ruffles we've been talking about on this thread, and so one may have nothing to do with the other. I wrote, > >The other interesting theory I've heard is that the dress is made rather > >too long, and then tucked with a seam at that line. Given the wide skirt > >flare, the lower part would be somewhat longer on the seam than the upper > >part would be, so the difference is distributed with a gather. > Do you have any theory as to why anyone would do this? These are not > young girls who are going to grow and need their skirts lengthened, so > presumably it would be decorative, done deliberately to produce that > ruffled line? I wouldn't put forth a particular reason they might do this, but it's not hard to come up with some possibilities if you try. I see you came up with two yourself -- above, that it's decorative, and below: > In my opinion, the ruffles are in fact a tuck line and the reason is > that after walking around outdoors in a skirt that is longer than > floor length, the bottom of a dress gets really ruined fairly fast. > Even the wealthy would want to get more than 3 or 4 wearings out of a > dress. Since what I was proposing was essentially a tuck line, that works for me. And so might a bunch of other possibilities. Just musing: The dresses may have been basted into tucks when worn as underdresses, or left long when worn alone. Or, they may have been made long with the assumption that they would be adjusted to the height of the wearer when passed to another person. It's all speculation, of course, which should be viewed with the usual caution: maybe, maybe not, we won't know till we get something solid to go on. And that goes double for my own speculations! (Which I try to label clearly as such...) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 01:05:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M55vRM001849 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:05:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M4xQYF000903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:59:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M4xPsN027952; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:59:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M4xKsO027933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:59:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-194.sonic.net [209.148.112.194]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6M4xIWj001142 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:59:19 -0700 Message-ID: <40FF4ADA.4080202@lavoltapress.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:04:26 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Silk Trading Company X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The Silk Trading Company finally put up their new website: http://www.silktrading.com/ Which has a much smaller selection than their local store. On the other hand, this website works, whereas the old one was partly broken and all the illos had a greeny-brown cast. They sell silk velvet, though if it's like what I've seen in their store it's heavy upholstery weight. Fran Grimble Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming (http://www.lavoltapress.com) Children's Literature winner of the 2004 Bulwer-Lytton Contest (http://www.bulwer-lytton.com) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 01:29:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M5TbRM001913 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:29:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5SZYF002661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5SWsN043739; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5STsN043608 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.146.186]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6M5SAP9027023 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:28:12 +1000 Message-ID: <021d01c46fac$a20dfbe0$ba92d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040712.143316.28495.275953@webmail20.nyc.untd.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: Doctor Spock and novel Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:40:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] re: Doctor Spock and novel > > Well if she was really nipping out in the brisk English morning to bath in the unheated waters of a garden fountain, she's made of sterner stuff than I!!!! ;-) > > > Karen Just why she wouldn't bring a bowl of hot water up to her room and have a sponge bath I don't know, a sponge bath can be just as effective as a shower, and probably more effective than a shower in an outdoor fountain in the cold because A. who knows what animals or people have dropped into the fountain and B. when you have a cold shower you generally try to make it as short as possible and often don't wash as well as you do when you have enough time. Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 01:30:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M5UeRM001943 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:30:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5SqYF002693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5SqsN043940; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5SZsN043750 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.146.186]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6M5SAPF027023 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:28:32 +1000 Message-ID: <022001c46fac$ad82b920$ba92d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407151826.i6FIQg4g022811@net.indra.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:39:38 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 4:25 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost]OT: Art v. Entertainment was: King Arthur > Gee, there was a Henry XII? Just kidding... Yeah don't you remember Henry IX was a terrible king put up taxes, emptied the treasuries with foreign wars. Henry X was a bit mediocre but he reduced spending and made up a bit for Henry IX's huge spending but he died early leaving his son Henry XI to take over the throne at 18. Henry XI ruled for a long time and made a fairly good job of it, married a German princess and had 4 kids Henry (later Henry XII), Chastity, Prudence and William. Henry XII got really drunk one night in Vegas and toured round the chapels until he found someone who would marry him to the six women he'd picked up that night. *g* Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 01:34:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M5YqRM001950 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:34:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5XsYF003042 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:33:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5XqsN046599; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:33:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5XisN046502 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:33:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19158 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:38:13 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:38:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <40FE77F2.1090006@thibault.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > Sue Clemenger wrote: > > > I was wondering if > > there were any differences in the type/quality/amount of allegorical > > depictions when the medium is taken into account? Do some show up more > > in illuminations and some more as glasswork or statuary? > > It's a good question, I think. The answer, though, is at right angles > to what you've asked. If the image/statue is from a religious scene > of any sort, that's when you have to be on the lookout for allegorical > craziness. This is something I've learned from listening to Robin -- > very useful information. > > She said recently in this forum "read the captions" which means don't > just look at the image, gather everything you can from the context. > Lots of images are scanned or published without the rest of the page > that they came from, which if you read it, would tell you what was > going on. Hunt down the context. Clearly there would be a big > difference in reliability between, say, Adam and Eve having a picnic > and Gaston Phoebus having a picnic on the hunt. Nicely said -- and thanks for saving me the trouble! I've spent too much time on email and missed a few already that I wanted to respond to, but I have a load of work this week... Anyway, as a bit of a footnote: There are some media that do tend to be heavier on symbolism, but that's primarily because of the purpose of the artworks (which gets right back to what Cynthia said above). For instance, you don't often see engraved brass plates for purposes other than funerary effigies, and those have a heavy symbolic value. So it's no surprise that taken as a whole, the total body of engraved brass work is heavy on certain kinds of symbolism, more so than a medium such as paintings, which had many uses. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 01:35:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M5ZWRM001958 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:35:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5XkYF003021 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:33:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5XjsN046512; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:33:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M5XfsN046475 for ; Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:33:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040722053340.DMXI18566.out011.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:33:40 -0500 Message-ID: <000601c46fad$7552c300$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <008301c46f2b$5b5a7bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711><40FF25E4.2080800@oldwaylane.net> <1039.24.4.69.40.1090471939.squirrel@24.4.69.40> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:33:45 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:33:40 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO where is costume college? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 9:52 PM Subject: [h-cost] Costume College > Hello Everyone, > > Well, nobody has said much until now but I just have to gush now. It is > only 1 1/2 weeks until Costume College and I am VERY EXCITED!! I am > looking forward to seeing other H-Costumers there and spending time with > others who understand my hobby. > > Would folks like to wear the scarlet "H" again this year? Do we want to > try to get together at some point? What do those of you who are going > think? > > Diana (who is doing the happy dance because she is excited about the event > and who desperately needs a long weekend off work!) > > > Diana Habra > www.RenaissanceFabrics.net > "Everything for the Costumer" > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 02:03:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M63eRM003028 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 02:03:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M61uYF004567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:01:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M61qsN061308; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:01:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M61osN061282 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:01:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19329 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:06:19 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:06:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: princess seams?! was Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <200407211829.i6LITpDW070672@sabre.goldsword.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Susan Farmer wrote: > I'm still not confident in my knowledge of Sideless Surcoats. Did you > give an approximate date for Sideless Surcoats in your lecture -- when > they were "real?" I can't remember -- and my notes are at home. Speaking roughly, the majority of examples from the area centering on France/Flanders/England will fall into this pattern: 1340s or so: early versions of surcotes with cut-in sides present on noblewomen. This is before the development of very deep scooped sides, fur plastron, etc.; think Luttrell Psalter. By at least 1380, becoming more pronounced as you approach 1400, examples concentrate on images of women of the very highest ranks, particularly royalty (queens, princesses, members of the royal family such as certain duchesses). Surcotes are also depicted as a more sumptuous garment, with fur edgings and eventually plastrons, longer trains, fuller skirts, jeweled decorations, etc. As you enter the 1400s, examples are virtually all on royal women, and over time tend to occur more and more in royal ceremonial contexts (weddings, coronations, sitting in state). Allegorical uses of the surcote to represent royalty or royal characteristics become more noticeable and increase as you approach mid-century. By the mid-1400s, most depictions appear to be highly symbolic (brides arrayed as "queens"), representations of "old" royalty (historic queens and royal saints), and allegories of royalty. A handful still occur on living royal women, though typically in contexts of ceremony, identification, or iconic representation. By the late 1400s, surcote imagery seems to be strictly symbolic, primarily for allegorical or historical figures. It is often mixed incompatibly with current fashion elements, as the surcote image is used for iconographic purposes and not always with an eye to even pretending to be a realistic representation. This continues into the 1500s with an occasional example as late as 1600 or so. Obviously there are a handful of exceptions to these broad cutoffs, but compared to the overall numbers, they're surprisingly few. That's all based on an examination of several hundred images I did some years ago. I've since been adding images to my collection, and haven't yet found noticeable deviations from the overall trends. Someday I will sit down and re-do the entire content analysis with all the images I can find -- probably at least 500 -- and some additional statistical work. (BTW: If anyone repeats this information elsewhere, please do me the favor of citing it to me, based on my lectures and correspondence. I do hope to publish this when I've done an updated analysis, and if the information becomes widespread and is not properly cited, that can make it very hard for me to establish that the work is both mine and original. If you need citation information for a paper or other document, just email me and ask.) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 03:35:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M7ZBRM031806 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:35:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M7YZYF009052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:34:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M7YYsN011327; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:34:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M7XtsN010962 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:33:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071624241A for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040722002115.02361ad8@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:28:06 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College In-Reply-To: <1039.24.4.69.40.1090471939.squirrel@24.4.69.40> References: <40FF25E4.2080800@oldwaylane.net> <008301c46f2b$5b5a7bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <40FF25E4.2080800@oldwaylane.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 09:52 PM 7/21/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Would folks like to wear the scarlet "H" again this year? Do we want to >try to get together at some point? What do those of you who are going >think? > >Diana (who is doing the happy dance because she is excited about the event >and who desperately needs a long weekend off work!) > > >Diana Habra Well, Diana, I am starting to join in on the happy dance myself. Real Life and a toddler has left me stressed, and I need the time to just be with other people who understand this strange passion of costuming (strange to them, not to us). I just got my hair cut today even in anticipation, and am working on a couple of art-to-wear kinda street clothes as my costumes will not be coming with me. I hope to have the red H on my badge, and may print out some stickers for us to use, if I can find my box of small stickers. I do recall someone else last year did that, and they were very handy (thank you). Will that same person be doing so again this year? It doesn't hurt to have some redundancies just in case I forget my stickers. I don't know when any of us will have time to meet as a group, but I will try to be at the Friday night social this year. I want my chocolate that I missed last year. Anyway, I look forward to seeing as many H-costumers as I can this year. And I will again have my camera with lots of film. Kimiko (Rubenesque lady with the silver streaks in her shoulder length dark hair) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 03:36:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M7a3RM032261 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:36:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M7Y1YF009016 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:34:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M7XwsN010999; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:33:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M7XtsN010963 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:33:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC20442439 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040722003006.02392d18@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:33:43 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College In-Reply-To: <000601c46fad$7552c300$547c0f04@brandyscomp> References: <008301c46f2b$5b5a7bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <40FF25E4.2080800@oldwaylane.net> <1039.24.4.69.40.1090471939.squirrel@24.4.69.40> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:33 PM 7/21/2004 -0700, you wrote: >where is costume college? Costume College is in Van Nuys, California, aka within the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area. Info at http://www.costumecollege.org/ They are sold out of class tickets this year, but if you are in the area, the dealers room is free to the public Saturday and Sunday. And if you are interested in next year's event, I suggest buying tickets early, because classes and tours are filled in order of how early you have purchased your tickets (iow, early ticket buyers have higher priority in limited classes and tours). hth, Kimiko _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 05:16:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M9GMRM002377 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:16:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9FhYF014548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:15:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9FWsN062798; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:15:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9FSsN062761 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:15:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:13:57 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: [h-cost] Re: 17th-18th century costuming question... To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFA3@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Re: 17th-18th century costuming question... Thread-Index: AcRvTS56iujcJD4kSqC/n8rNYAKumwAfq9Aw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > (although I do find the idea of a French Fall as a > sort of dating maneuver sort of amusing in a twisted fashion...). Thank you, Marc! I've just had to clean coffee from my monitor! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 05:23:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M9N0RM002387 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:23:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9LDYF014991 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:21:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9LBsN065676; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:21:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9LAsN065659 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:21:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:19:44 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] contrasting gores To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFA4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] contrasting gores Thread-Index: AcRvZ08LsEbzKfzsQgeXoQJnJEc+KwAZWSXw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Which ones can't you tell? It looks pretty obvious to me in all cases, > > there are folds in the "gores"/underskirts that don't continue beyond > > the edge of the main-fabric/overskirt spilt. > > You know, I think I only kept ones where it was obvious. *giggle* > > Here's one -- it's not obvious in her gown, but it is with the men. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_Death > Socrates.jpg Hmm... to me that is another obviously split overskirt because the edges of the split are so defined and the folds in the underskirt layer disappear under the edge of the slit instead of continuing in the overskirt fabric. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 05:27:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M9RMRM002392 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:27:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9PTYF015175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:25:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9PRsN067757; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:25:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9POsN067736 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:25:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:24:23 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFA5@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split Thread-Index: AcRvZ08LsEbzKfzsQgeXoQJnJEc+KwAZdTjA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split > >The other interesting theory I've heard is that the dress is made > >rather too long, and then tucked with a seam at that line. Given the > >wide skirt flare, the lower part would be somewhat longer on the seam > >than the upper part would be, so the difference is distributed with a > >gather. That would technically mean it's all one piece, but suppose > >it's not inappropriate to say that functionally it's a ruffle! I don't > >know what anyone else would call it. > > > Do you have any theory as to why anyone would do this? These are not > young girls who are going to grow and need their skirts lengthened, so > presumably it would be decorative, done deliberately to produce that > ruffled line? The only plausible(ish) reasons I can think of are: (a) To allow extra length if wearing with high pattens.... though why they would nead it I don't know (b) To allow extra length that can be let diown if the original hem edge gets irrepairably worn or soiled and needs to be cut off.... There doesn't seem to be much evidence of hemguards in these garments, perhaps this was an alternative way of dealing with the problem.... possiby... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 05:32:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M9WIRM002402 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:32:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9TwYF015335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:29:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9TvsN070061; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:29:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9TssN070045 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:29:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:28:29 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] lace sleaves dilemma To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFA6@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] lace sleaves dilemma Thread-Index: AcRvZ08LsEbzKfzsQgeXoQJnJEc+KwAZrQrQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > When you look at this portrait, > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/es3eng.htm > I think it is a little out of proportions. I have made 2 lace > ruffles wich are 10 cm. wide each. This gives 20 cm. in all + > i also must have space for the puff sleave. When i look at my > reproduktion, it looks as if the lace ruffles should be > bigger to match the actual portrait, but if i made the lace > wider, the sleave would have to be longer. What do you think. > Dont you think that a ruffle with 10 cm. would be fine? > Making a copy is much more difficult than you would imagine! Bjarne I can't estimate sizes in metric, but my way of doing it would be to make a mock up in cheap fabric which you can cut down if they are too big, then use that as a guide for cutting the lace version.... Best of luck! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 05:34:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M9YURM002411 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:34:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9WaYF015467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:32:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9WZsN071452; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:32:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9WVsN071423 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:32:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:31:24 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Hem "ruffles" (WAS:contrasting gores vs. split) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFA7@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Hem "ruffles" (WAS:contrasting gores vs. split) Thread-Index: AcRvZ08LsEbzKfzsQgeXoQJnJEc+KwAZw/9g content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Another theory: The gown is completely lined, and the lining > is turned up over the outside, making an outside hem. (If > you just extend the angle of the dress for the lining, you > would have to adjust by taking tiny gathers.) As an added > bonus, when the hem of your lining wears out, it would be > possible to cut off the lining, exposing the undamaged bottom > of the gown itself, thus lengthening the life of the gown. Hmmm.... possible, but would it sit "right" at the actual hem level if that were the case. I've tried to do something similar in the past and it worked fine on a straight hem but not on a curved one, for some reason..... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 05:35:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6M9ZFRM002419 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 05:35:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9YhYF015528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:34:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9YgsN072479; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:34:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6M9YesN072456 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:34:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:33:45 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] ruffles (no ridges) was: contrasting gores vs. split To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFA8@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] ruffles (no ridges) was: contrasting gores vs. split Thread-Index: AcRvZ08LsEbzKfzsQgeXoQJnJEc+KwAZ3JeQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > As for it being > the sole reason for its function is knocked down by the fact > the most of the figures that have the "ruffle", show that the > ruffle matches the dress. I can not find the URL but there is > a picture where the "ruffle" hemmed dress looks like it is of > sheer material which would indicate that somewhere along the > line it became decorative for some. De I have that one at home, reproduced in a book of medieval cookery....(it is the only reason I bought tho book, as a matter of fact).... but don';t have any of the details with me here at work. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 06:03:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MA3pRM002540 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:03:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MA3FYF016850 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:03:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MA3DsN087136; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:03:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MA38sN087111 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:03:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:01:57 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Ruffles and hems (long) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFA9@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Ruffles and hems (long) Thread-Index: AcRvlAcnbledRMYCQKqks2XUFVG1ggAPFaJQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I can't send a direct link to the page, but if you go to the > early manuscripts of Oxford http://image.ox.ac.uk/ . Bodleian > Library and MS 264 ( The Romance of Alexander), you will see > some interesting "ruffles" at the bottom of the page of folio > 97 verso. The noble ladies don't have them (but they do have > some interesting sideless surcoats) but the common ladies > have pieces of different colors sewn on to the bottoms of > their white underdresses? chemises? shifts? I think the idea > is to just use more expensive fabric where it shows but these > women are mostly defeating the purpose when they hike their > skirts up to the waist for dancing. Oooh! Thanks for posting the link.... To me, it looks more like a shorter, white/off-white, garment worn between the longer undergown and the outer gown to me. Starting at the left hand side, the lower edge/hem of the (blanket stitched??) white layer seems to stick out beyond the blue/grey patterned fabric beneath it at the front of the figure. The third figure in from the left (yellow overgown) - the white layer seems to stick out a tthe hm beyond the grey/blue layer at both edges. The 5th in from the left (blue outer gown, pink undergown) the white again sticks out beyond the pink at the front, plus the folds in the pink seem to disappear under the white layer. The first figure beyond the male musician and treelike object (pink overgown and blue undergown) no overhangs, but the folds in the ble layer at the hem seem to continue up into the white layer (yellowish shading), so if it is an applied layer of ble to the hem of the white garment, it would appear not to be gathered but sewn flat...(possibly). the next figure (sitting or crouching) The hem of the white layer clearly sticks out at either side above the yellow layer closer about her legs. The last figure, aslo seems to display the continuatio of the folds from one layer to the next with no indication of gathering between the two layers unless the lines along the edge of the white layer are meant to indicate it..... > A picture in the Mannesse Codex seems to show a turned-up hem > - the effect is rather different from the ruffles. Find it > here - http://www.manesse.de/manesse0-9.shtml by going to > Tafel 126. It seems just the thing for long skirts if your > boyfriend insists on taking you hiking through the hills. I'm curious. What makes you think it is a turned up hem rather than a shaped contrasting band at the hem? Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 06:17:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MAHbRM002602 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:17:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MAGxYF017624 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:17:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MAGusN094287; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:16:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MAGrsN094258 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 04:16:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:15:36 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Ruffles and hems (long) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFAA@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Ruffles and hems (long) Thread-Index: AcRvvrgIlfqBY8vBQpitUAhdf+rAHwAFXkNw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Try this idea on for size: Perhaps these women are wearing > fur-lined overgowns that have been folded back up to show the > lining. Makes a *lot* of sense to me. > Note also that each of these white areas has a series of > small lines along the bottom edge. It might be stitching, or > a weird sort of reverse gather, but if you read this as a > folded-up skirt, it could be the rippling of the folded edge. Or the pile of the fur, which would be more distinct at a folded edge over a contrast/darker colour than it would be in a plain mass of fur lining away from the fold. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 10:17:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MEH8RM003649 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:17:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MEG0YF004907 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:16:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MEFosN032199; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:15:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MEFgsN031920 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:15:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7beda.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.218]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 96EEF47FE44 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:15:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002801c46ff6$586a3590$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:15:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, He also editted the lovely catalog : An Elegant Art, about fashion in 18th century. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynn Downward" To: "h costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... > Edward Maeder worked at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) for > several years, moved to the shoe museum that Marc mentioned earlier and > wrote the book about Hollywood historic costumes. He's a great speaker. I > can't speak about his parentage. > > LynnD > > On 7/21/04 1:41 PM, "purplkat@optonline.net" wrote: > > > > > *blink, blink, blink* > > > > Maeder? > > > > I have only heard of 1 other person with that spelling (besides me). > > > > hhmmmm I wonder if they are related to my Paternal Grandfather Henry > > Maeder....?? > > > > Kat > > who should keep her mind on important things > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Lynn Downward > > > > Or > >> Edward Maeder, whom I've heard speak on shoes from the colonies. > >> Sally has a > >> website but I don't really know how to get hold of Edward, except > >> that he'll > >> (well, they both will) be lecturing at Costume College July 30-Aug > > > >> LynnD > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 12:23:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MGNcRM005548 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:23:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MGKpZp019348 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:22:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MG4usN018965; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:04:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MG4qsN018851 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:04:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1237296 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:04:45 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:04:45 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002801c46ff6$586a3590$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Exactly, Bjarne. Maeder was curator of that installation. I was lucky enough to be in Los Angeles when it was there and got to see An Elegant Art. Better yet, a friend was able to take photographs and gave me copies. I still don't have the book though because they seem to be out of it in the shop when I go and I just don't want to hassle ordering it. We'll be going to LACMA this coming week and I'll try again. LynnD On 7/22/04 7:15 AM, "Bjarne og Leif Drews" wrote: > Hi, > He also editted the lovely catalog : An Elegant Art, about fashion in 18th > century. > > Bjarne > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lynn Downward" > To: "h costume" > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:53 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... > > >> Edward Maeder worked at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) for >> several years, moved to the shoe museum that Marc mentioned earlier and >> wrote the book about Hollywood historic costumes. He's a great speaker. I >> can't speak about his parentage. >> >> LynnD >> >> On 7/21/04 1:41 PM, "purplkat@optonline.net" > wrote: >> >>> >>> *blink, blink, blink* >>> >>> Maeder? >>> >>> I have only heard of 1 other person with that spelling (besides me). >>> >>> hhmmmm I wonder if they are related to my Paternal Grandfather Henry >>> Maeder....?? >>> >>> Kat >>> who should keep her mind on important things >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Lynn Downward >>> >>> Or >>>> Edward Maeder, whom I've heard speak on shoes from the colonies. >>>> Sally has a >>>> website but I don't really know how to get hold of Edward, except >>>> that he'll >>>> (well, they both will) be lecturing at Costume College July 30-Aug >>> >>>> LynnD >>> _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 12:24:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MGOVRM005580 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:24:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MGMcYF019687 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:22:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MGLZsN032213; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:21:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MGKXsN031502 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:20:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 12F6E18004BF for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:20:27 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.35) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 22 Jul 2004 16:18:20 -0000 Received: by ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A58C04F3D2; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:20:21 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [81.144.218.66] by ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:20:21 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:20:21 +0000 Subject: effigy corset was...Re: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? X-Originating-Ip: 81.144.218.66 X-Originating-Server: ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040722162021.A58C04F3D2@ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com> Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi E, When I saw the effigy corset it was completely boned in whalebone. The bones were 1/4" wide except the two larger tapered bones, one on each side of the front opening. Just out of curiosity, where did you get the idea there was metal in the corset? Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:23:06 -0500 > Also, the effigy corset has two metal bones. > -E -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 13:15:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MHFMRM005893 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:15:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHDZYF025360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:13:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHDUsN076433; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:13:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHDPsN076325 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:13:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6MHjf5c081217 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:45:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6MHjfTj081216 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:45:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407221745.i6MHjfTj081216@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <20040722001136.13944.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] elizabethan question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ok, I'm going to leave my normal italian (not to mention fascination with earlier period Symbolic Garb) and ask about this portrait http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/gower_MaryDenton48.jpg Just how is that black overgown shaped/fitted/held in place? Is it loose in the back or fitted? Inquiring minds and all that, Susan/ Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 13:36:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MHaDRM006011 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:36:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHYOYF027703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:34:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHYHsN093528; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:34:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHYEsN093458 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:34:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6MI6c5c081401 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:06:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6MI6caX081400 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:06:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407221806.i6MI6caX081400@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! In-Reply-To: <200407212214.01940.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > On Wednesday 21 July 2004 7:38 am, Teddy wrote: > [snip] > > > (A) Split skirt. Felicite -either she has a matching blue > > > sideless on or she has princess seams. > > > > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortun > > e.jpg > > > > That one is a puzzler. > > Frankly, I can't see enough of the relevant areas of "Felicite's" gown around > that red cloak wrapped around her to see whether there's anything like a > princess seam or not. The "seam" starts about where the cloak meets her neckline and continues to where the "seam" hits the juncture of sleeve and wrist. You can see the line on the other sidestarting about the big nuckle on her hand and disappearing into the cloak. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 13:38:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MHc2RM006016 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:38:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHZZYF027811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:35:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHZWsN094524; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:35:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHZQsN094456 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:35:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040722173518.JCGI6671.out003.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:35:18 -0500 Message-ID: <007801c47012$48cad0b0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000601c46f59$077a8920$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] lace sleaves dilemma Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:35:21 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:35:17 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Are the lace ruffles on her sleeves attached? It almost looks like they are tied on to create or accent the puff in the sleeve. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:29 PM Subject: [h-cost] lace sleaves dilemma > Hi, > When you look at this portrait, > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/es3eng.htm > I think it is a little out of proportions. I have made 2 lace ruffles wich > are 10 cm. wide each. This gives 20 cm. in all + i also must have space for > the puff sleave. > When i look at my reproduktion, it looks as if the lace ruffles should be > bigger to match the actual portrait, but if i made the lace wider, the > sleave would have to be longer. > What do you think. Dont you think that a ruffle with 10 cm. would be fine? > Making a copy is much more difficult than you would imagine! > Bjarne > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 13:39:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MHdcRM006022 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:39:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHcvYF028094 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:38:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHcmsN097167; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:38:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHcdsN097074 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:38:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040722173837.GWWM27801.out008.verizon.net@brandyscomp>; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:38:37 -0500 Message-ID: <008701c47012$bd6a5080$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "SCA Costumes" , "Historic Costume List" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:38:44 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:38:37 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6MHdcRM006022 Status: RO AAAHHH!!! I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes in the 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. I recall my costuming professor saying something about traveling actors having set characters and costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the title of these troops and am just going in Google Circles. Please help! B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 13:44:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MHi7RM006040 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:44:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHfeYF028500 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:41:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHfdsN099777; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:41:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHf6sO099275 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:41:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6MHcdtY019506 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:38:39 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <40FFFC2F.3050003@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:41:03 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Did they use lace in mid-1500s France? I'm contemplating making a thank-you for a friend who does that period, and I have some handmade lace, and was thinking a lace edged handkerchief might be appropriate/useful -- but it's not my area of expertise. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 13:47:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MHlDRM006044 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:47:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHjpYF028939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:45:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHjnsN003329; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:45:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHjhsN003281 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:45:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040722174543.VKHI1551.out004.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:45:43 -0500 Message-ID: <00e901c47013$bb25c240$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <008301c46f2b$5b5a7bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711><40FF25E4.2080800@oldwaylane.net><1039.24.4.69.40.1090471939.squirrel@24.4.69.40> <5.2.1.1.0.20040722003006.02392d18@64.87.54.245> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:45:49 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:45:43 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm in Washington, and I would love to attend. But (take no offence) I avoid LA like the plauge. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kimiko Small" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College > At 10:33 PM 7/21/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >where is costume college? > > > Costume College is in Van Nuys, California, aka within the greater Los > Angeles metropolitan area. > > Info at http://www.costumecollege.org/ > > They are sold out of class tickets this year, but if you are in the area, > the dealers room is free to the public Saturday and Sunday. > > And if you are interested in next year's event, I suggest buying tickets > early, because classes and tours are filled in order of how early you have > purchased your tickets (iow, early ticket buyers have higher priority in > limited classes and tours). > > hth, > > Kimiko > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 13:57:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MHvsRM006097 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:57:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHqKYF029754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:52:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHqIsN008764; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:52:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHq8sN008632 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:52:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6MIOV5c081602 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:24:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6MIOV6g081601 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:24:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407221824.i6MIOV6g081601@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College In-Reply-To: <000601c46fad$7552c300$547c0f04@brandyscomp> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > where is costume college? The even more ignorant question *what* is costume college? susan/ jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 13:59:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MHxpRM006110 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:59:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHpdYF029656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:51:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHpbsN008172; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:51:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from omta16.mta.everyone.net (sitemail2.everyone.net [216.200.145.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHpSsN008060 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:51:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from generys@blazemail.com) Received: from pmta02.mta.everyone.net (unknown [216.200.145.26]) by omta16.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9901D3FE52 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:51:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Eon-Sig: AQBKBEVA//6d0iDrWAIAAAAB,6887fd33218947e7b8473530fa0c5181 Received: from marketing1 (69.38.51.209 [69.38.51.209]) by pmta02.mta.everyone.net (EON-AUTHRELAY) with ESMTP id E960CBF7; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:51:25 -0700 From: "Jennifer / Guenievre" To: Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:56:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <200407221742.i6MHg1sP000225@net.indra.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Thread-Index: AcRwE019xtzudAWmQrmGflIX/T2tWwAAaQ3Q Message-Id: <20040722175125.9901D3FE52@omta16.mta.everyone.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > AAAHHH!!! > > I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's > costumes in the 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find > anything but jesters. I recall my costuming professor saying > something about traveling actors having set characters and > costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the > title of these troops and am just going in Google Circles. > Please help! > > B > Try searching on "Commedia dell'Arte", that's the Italian version of such things and they definitely had set characters/costumes, to a degree... Unfortunately, that's about the extent of my knowledge of that :-). J _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:03:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MI3cRM006132 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:03:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MI1pYF001120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:01:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MI1lsN016762; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:01:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MI0ksN015963 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:00:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6MIX65c081691 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:33:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6MIX21I081689 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:33:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:33:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407221833.i6MIX21I081689@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] contrasting gores In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFA4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > Which ones can't you tell? It looks pretty obvious to me in all > cases, > > > there are folds in the "gores"/underskirts that don't continue > beyond > > > the edge of the main-fabric/overskirt spilt. > > > > You know, I think I only kept ones where it was obvious. *giggle* > > > > Here's one -- it's not obvious in her gown, but it is with the men. http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_DeathSocrates.jpg > > Hmm... to me that is another obviously split overskirt because the edges > of the split are so defined and the folds in the underskirt layer > disappear under the edge of the slit instead of continuing in the > overskirt fabric. *giggle* I have learned so much in the short time I've been on this list. I had never even looked at the folds in her layers -- I was just looking at the hem(s) The devil is indeed in the details! Susan/ Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:06:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MI6nRM006157 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:06:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHuHYF000412 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:56:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MHuEsN012216; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:56:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6MHu8sN012035 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:56:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCkpxszUmUT0Fuk2/WTSSfYTE73arGS3sew== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J26NX9K3; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:55:37 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:46:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress Message-ID: <20040722.124607.-185196793.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-22 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Are you thinking of Comedia Del Arte characters? Karen On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:38:44 -0700 "Brandy Deming" writes: > AAAHHH!!! > > I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes in > the 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. > I recall my costuming professor saying something about traveling > actors having set characters and costumes to go with said > characters. I cannot remember the title of these troops and am just > going in Google Circles. Please help! > > B > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:08:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MI83RM006171 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:08:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MI6GYF001709 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:06:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MI6FsN020464; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:06:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MI67sN020353 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:06:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23994 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:10:39 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:10:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress In-Reply-To: <008701c47012$bd6a5080$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Brandy Deming wrote: > I recall my costuming professor saying something about traveling > actors having set characters and costumes to go with said characters. > I cannot remember the title of these troops and am just going in > Google Circles. Please help! Commedia dell'Arte? That would be Italian, of course, not necessarily relevant to other regions, and I don't know offhand what centuries that was popular. But the general concept of stock characters was widespread, if I remember anything about late medieval and early modern drama. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:10:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIAaRM006186 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:10:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MI4dYF001466 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:04:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MI4asN019058; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:04:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf10.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf10.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.210]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MI4UsN018937 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:04:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lotsofteapots@charter.net) Received: from mxip04.cluster1.charter.net (mxip04a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.134]) by mxsf10.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6MI4NlW025863 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:04:24 -0400 Received: from c68.190.113.88.mad.wi.charter.com (HELO laptop) (68.190.113.88) by mxip04.cluster1.charter.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2004 14:04:24 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,83,1089000000"; d="scan'208"; a="135725104:sNHT14928200" Message-ID: <004601c47016$54a7efe0$5871be44@mad.wi.charter.com> From: To: "Historical Costume" References: <008701c47012$bd6a5080$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:04:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO commedia d'elle arte? ********************** Rebecca Schmitt aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot Bristol Renaissance Faire, Guilde of St. Lawrence My arms are too short to box with God. ~Johnny Cash lotsofteapots@charter.net ********************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandy Deming" To: "SCA Costumes" ; "Historic Costume List" Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 12:38 PM Subject: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress AAAHHH!!! I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes in the 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. I recall my costuming professor saying something about traveling actors having set characters and costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the title of these troops and am just going in Google Circles. Please help! B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:10:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIAeRM006189 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:10:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIA8YF002136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:10:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIA5sN024761; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:10:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail2.mdx.safepages.com (mail2.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIA2sN024606 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:10:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail2.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id CA7AC1D10D0; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:10:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust167.tnt2.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.178.167]) by mail2.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9EF7A1D10D4 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:09:58 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <023901c47017$58b8c7c0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040722162021.A58C04F3D2@ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com> Subject: Re: effigy corset was...Re: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:11:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ack, you're right; I was going by memory, and my memory was malfunctioning! Regardless, there's a decent amount of documentary support for some use of metal as a stiffener in Elizabethan and Jacobean corsets. -E ----- Original Message ----- From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" Subject: effigy corset was...Re: [h-cost] metal use in corsetry? > Hi E, > > When I saw the effigy corset it was completely boned in whalebone. The bones were 1/4" wide except the two larger tapered bones, one on each side of the front opening. Just out of curiosity, where did you get the idea there was metal in the corset? > > Cheers, > Danielle _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:17:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIHfRM006231 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:17:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIGnYF002809 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:16:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIGjsN032583; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:16:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIGhsN032548 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:16:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6MIGe9W012136 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:16:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:18:25 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <20040722175125.9901D3FE52@omta16.mta.everyone.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Definitely search for the Commedia dell'Arte. There were set characters and set costumes/masks that the characters wore. The storylines could vary, but if you saw a person with a certain mask appear on the stage, you knew what type of character he was (the women didn't wear masks if I recall correctly). Commedia dell'Arte was the precursor of a lot of performance art, including (as I recall) vaudeville. Talia (in sticky humid Kansas) > > something about traveling actors having set characters and > > costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the > > title of these troops and am just going in Google Circles. > > Please help! > > > > B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:26:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIQ5RM006287 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:26:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIPGYF003707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:25:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIPFsN039260; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:25:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f40.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIPAsN039137 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:25:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:25:04 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:25:03 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:25:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2004 18:25:04.0256 (UTC) FILETIME=[3537D000:01C47019] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE:17th-18th century costuming question... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sorry for the delay - let me just hit the highlights from various folks. From: Lynn Downward >...but your friend may want to contact Sally Queen, who just spent time >researching purchases of shoes by George Washington. Or Edward Maeder, whom >I've heard speak on shoes from the colonies... I will pass these along. If you feel like asking when you see them, please feel free to, I know I'd appreciate it. ----------------------- From: ruthanne baumgartner >Would a total guess be in order?... At this point a total guess is no more out of order than anything else :) Unless I start tripping over some facts, it's not lke there's anything much to go on :) >Do you think it might refer to a top (or tongue) extended far enough up >toward >the ankle to be folded forward?... There are some high tongues in the pictures I've got available to me from the peiod (1660-1770) but nothing flopping over - but admittedly this isn't really isn't my area (I tend to stick to pre-1600 since there are enough experts in post 1700 footwear that it just gets crowded :) Mostly what I'm seeing are High heels and big floppy ties gradually being replaced by buckles. Well, then again, there seem to be some sketches of unknown origin that have some folding tongues and one that shoes the ties that looks like a 19th century gentleman's ruffled collar. Hmm, and the folding over tonge does seem to be a french style... ------------------------------ From: "Diana Habra" >Given that info, I would suspect that "french fall" shoes are the ones >with a large tongue that folds down from the ankle and goes almost to the >toes. Also, I think there can be a buckle on top for decoration. I'm not seeing any pictures of tongues that big :) But I'll keep looking. Thank you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Teddy Thank you, Marc! I've just had to clean coffee from my monitor! We aim to please. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:26:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIPuRM006280 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:26:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIOxYF003665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:25:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIOwsN039045; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:24:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from navgw.mccc.edu (navgw.mccc.edu [198.133.170.231]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6MIOssO038867 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:24:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pinner@mccc.edu) Received: from tecoma.mccc.edu ([198.133.170.1]) by navgw.mccc.edu (SMSSMTP 4.0.0.59) with SMTP id M2004072214244324658 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:24:43 -0400 Received: from TH103A ([198.133.170.246]) by tecoma.mccc.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.11.4) with ESMTP id i6MIOh8O001358 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:24:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kate Pinner" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:24:38 -0400 Message-ID: <651C586D272B24428B045AA9CF0B2F90A90FF0@mcmail01.wwc.mccc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 In-Reply-To: <651C586D272B24428B045AA9CF0B2F9001D29F69@mcmail01.wwc.mccc.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Besides Comedia dell' arte (in various spellings) try the mystery plays Kate -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Brandy Deming Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 1:39 PM To: SCA Costumes; Historic Costume List Subject: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress AAAHHH!!! I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes in the 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. I recall my costuming professor saying something about traveling actors having set characters and costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the title of these troops and am just going in Google Circles. Please help! B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:33:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIXiRM006357 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:33:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIWuYF004498 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:32:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIWssN045321; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:32:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIWnsN045229 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:32:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7beda.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.218]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B5E947FE72 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:32:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002101c4701a$4d1ad040$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407221745.i6MHjfTj081216@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] elizabethan question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:32:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I would say that it definately is fitted in the back. If there would have ben floating pleats, the side would not show that sharp angle in the waist as it does. Lovely picture Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Farmer" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:45 PM Subject: [h-cost] elizabethan question > Ok, I'm going to leave my normal italian (not to mention fascination > with earlier period Symbolic Garb) and ask about this portrait > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/gower_MaryDenton48.jpg > > Just how is that black overgown shaped/fitted/held in place? Is it loose > in the back or fitted? > > Inquiring minds and all that, > Susan/ Jerusha > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:39:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIdLRM006403 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:39:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIbSYF004980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:37:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIbRsN048808; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:37:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav18.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIbMsN048677 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:37:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:34:49 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.19 by bay1-dav18.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:04:44 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.19] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407221824.i6MIOV6g081601@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:05:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2004 18:34:49.0169 (UTC) FILETIME=[91DA7410:01C4701A] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://costumecollege.org/ eBay http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Farmer" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College > > > > where is costume college? > > The even more ignorant question *what* is costume college? > > susan/ jerusha > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:43:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIhBRM006418 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:43:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIg5YF005405 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:42:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIg2sN052550; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:42:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav139.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.169]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIfwsN052397 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:41:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:41:49 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav139.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:41:49 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: <008701c47012$bd6a5080$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:41:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:41:46 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2004 18:41:49.0656 (UTC) FILETIME=[8C7BAD80:01C4701B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6MIhBRM006418 Status: RO It's later than you want (I think most of the Comedia del Arte is too) but there is a book out called Costumes and Scripts in the Elizabethan Theatre . I don't know whether it has much on earlier periods or not. I also recently logged in an older used book that was a general survey of medieval theatre that I think had some information on costume, but I guess it is already packed for Pennsic. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:45:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIjuRM006443 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:45:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIiiYF005667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:44:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIihsN054800; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:44:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIidsN054765 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:44:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7beda.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.218]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B9B6E262849 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:44:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002e01c4701b$f3ac74d0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000601c46f59$077a8920$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <007801c47012$48cad0b0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] lace sleaves dilemma Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:44:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, No the lace frills are sewed on to a sleave foundation wich has a puffed undersleave. I had such a lovely lace in cotton 10 cm wide wich i had saved for this projekt. But i only have 10 meters of it, and if i should use it, it would eat up all the lace i have and more to it. Because i would have to sew together the lace so that it has 2 scalloped edges for each frill. So i gave up that idea. Then i found a lovely embroidered silk organza today wich i will cut out in strips in the required width. Make a sharp tiny rolled hem. It has the exactly same colour as the portrait. It also has small pearls attached to it, but i shall remove all of them, because there are no pearls on the portrait. When i examined the portrait i was thinking that it was not a lace but either some whitework of a kind. Could it have ben a very fine linen embroidery? As i never would be able to make that, i think that this organza will be a good substitute. You have to make desitions about such things i am afraid. Anyway i made a fine foundation sleave today, and i have started to make the ruches, very nice to do. I am glad that most of the bodice soon will be finished, then i only have to make the skirt. Hopefully i will be able to finish the dress before i travel to Rome and Naples in the middle of august. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] lace sleaves dilemma > Are the lace ruffles on her sleeves attached? It almost looks like they are > tied on to create or accent the puff in the sleeve. > > B > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 12:29 PM > Subject: [h-cost] lace sleaves dilemma > > > > Hi, > > When you look at this portrait, > > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/es3eng.htm > > I think it is a little out of proportions. I have made 2 lace ruffles wich > > are 10 cm. wide each. This gives 20 cm. in all + i also must have space > for > > the puff sleave. > > When i look at my reproduktion, it looks as if the lace ruffles should be > > bigger to match the actual portrait, but if i made the lace wider, the > > sleave would have to be longer. > > What do you think. Dont you think that a ruffle with 10 cm. would be fine? > > Making a copy is much more difficult than you would imagine! > > Bjarne > > > > > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:52:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIqhRM006492 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:52:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIq7YF006491 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:52:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIq4sN060767; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:52:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIq1sN060723 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:52:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gawne@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin01-en2 [10.13.10.146]) by smtpout.mac.com (8.12.6/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i6MIq0n6015703 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from UROPORTABLE (dhcp073229.fhcrc.org [140.107.73.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin01/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id i6MIpc3b004001 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <007401c4701c$ee494170$e5496b8c@UROPORTABLE> From: "Agnes" To: References: <200407221742.i6MHg1sP000225@net.indra.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:51:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] An Elegant Art - was: 17th-18th century costuming question... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lynn- I am fairly sure that book is out of print but I buy every copy I find at used book stores - if you would like a used copy I can sell you one of mine. Agnes > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:04:45 -0700 > From: Lynn Downward > Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... > To: h costume > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Exactly, Bjarne. Maeder was curator of that installation. I was lucky enough > to be in Los Angeles when it was there and got to see An Elegant Art. Better > yet, a friend was able to take photographs and gave me copies. I still don't > have the book though because they seem to be out of it in the shop when I go > and I just don't want to hassle ordering it. We'll be going to LACMA this > coming week and I'll try again. > > LynnD > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 14:56:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MIuNRM006522 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:56:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIt7YF006859 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:55:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIt4sN063073; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:55:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIt0sN063010 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:55:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7beda.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.218]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6B61D47FE34 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:54:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003601c4701d$6abeace0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FFFC2F.3050003@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:55:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Cynthia, The very first bobbin lace printed book was printed in 1557. Le Pompe. It was an invention that some say came from Italy. So you could give her that lace edged handkerchief. She will love you for it! Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia Virtue" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:41 PM Subject: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question > Did they use lace in mid-1500s France? > > I'm contemplating making a thank-you for a friend who does that period, > and I have some handmade lace, and was thinking a lace edged > handkerchief might be appropriate/useful -- but it's not my area of > expertise. > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > > Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. > Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:16:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJGeRM006604 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:16:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJFdYF008654 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:15:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJEbsN078768; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:14:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6MJDUsN077882 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:13:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from DCH@Inreach.com) Received: (qmail 29257 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2004 19:14:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dianar947lfsaf) (24.4.69.40) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2004 19:14:07 -0000 From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costume College Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:18:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200407221824.i6MIOV6g081601@sabre.goldsword.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Costume College is a convention whose main focus is on classes for various costuming arts. It included Sci-Fi, Fantasy, & Historical. Each year there is a theme. Last year it was the bustle so there was a concentration of classes that focused on that theme. This year it is the 1890's. If you are in the SCA, it is like an indoor, three day long Collegium. They also have a marketplace, a Ball, a Sunday Tea, and displays. Since it is in LA, they also arrange for a few costume-related tours. It really is a lot of fun and the classes are fabulous. If you get the chance to go, I highly recommend it! Diana -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Susan Farmer Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:25 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College > > where is costume college? The even more ignorant question *what* is costume college? susan/ jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:19:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJJ3RM006611 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:19:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJGtYF008965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:16:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJGosN080790; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:16:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts12.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.141]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJGesN080585 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:16:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.4.107]) by simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040722191538.HAXI1749.simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:15:38 -0400 Message-ID: <009701c47020$20e8ab40$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:14:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Just a general cry to the universe here... why is it such a hassle to sew anything for the significant other in my life! He tries to tell me what he wants, I sew it for him, but he's rarely completely happy with it. He gets upset too because he knows the work I did, so both of us end up frustrated and cranky. Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of trouble when sewing for your spouse/family/friends? Sheridan (Slaving away over a hot sewing machine...) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* " I'm Irish! When I am well, I am better than everyone, when I am hurt I yell at the top of my lungs, and when I am dead I shall be deader than anybody! " _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:20:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJK9RM006615 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:20:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJJUYF009369 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:19:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJJTsN083122; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:19:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJJOsN082992 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:19:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id AFB1618020CE for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:19:18 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.32) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 22 Jul 2004 19:17:17 -0000 Received: by ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4BBE03384B; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:19:18 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.66] by ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:19:18 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:19:18 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] An Elegant Art - was: 17th-18th century costumingquestion... X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.66 X-Originating-Server: ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040722191918.4BBE03384B@ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO They are availible on ABE books for a good price - here is one for under $20. http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=309182450 Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > Lynn- I am fairly sure that book is out of print but I buy every copy I find > at used book stores - if you would like a used copy I can sell you one of > mine. > > Agnes > > > Exactly, Bjarne. Maeder was curator of that installation. I was lucky > enough > > to be in Los Angeles when it was there and got to see An Elegant Art. -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:21:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJLbRM006623 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:21:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJJeYF009397 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:19:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJJdsN083261; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:19:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJJUsN083080 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:19:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 126731801ED9 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:19:25 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.31) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 22 Jul 2004 19:17:23 -0000 Received: by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D6790E5BC8; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:19:24 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.66] by ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:19:24 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:19:24 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] An Elegant Art - was: 17th-18th century costumingquestion... X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.66 X-Originating-Server: ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040722191924.D6790E5BC8@ws7-2.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO They are availible on ABE books for a good price - here is one for under $20. http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=309182450 Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > Lynn- I am fairly sure that book is out of print but I buy every copy I find > at used book stores - if you would like a used copy I can sell you one of > mine. > > Agnes > > > Exactly, Bjarne. Maeder was curator of that installation. I was lucky > enough > > to be in Los Angeles when it was there and got to see An Elegant Art. -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:21:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJLsRM006630 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:21:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJGDYF008760 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:16:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJG7sN080064; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:16:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJFhsN079611 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:15:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id B40571802440 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:15:37 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.35) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 22 Jul 2004 19:13:31 -0000 Received: by ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2F1684F3D7; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:15:32 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:15:32 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:15:32 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040722191532.2F1684F3D7@ws7-6.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I can't say with 100% accuracy but I would imagine so since there were multiple bobbinlace manuals/pattern books which were published mid-century and have been reprinted recently. Le Pompe was published in Italy in 1559 and the German pattern book which is currently called "Fascinating Bobbin Lace" was published in Germany 1561. Anyway, have a look at Clouet portraits and you'll see it used. Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > Did they use lace in mid-1500s France? > > I'm contemplating making a thank-you for a friend who does that period, > and I have some handmade lace, and was thinking a lace edged > handkerchief might be appropriate/useful -- but it's not my area of > expertise. > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > > Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. > Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:24:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJOBRM006637 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:24:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJMmYF009772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:22:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJMlsN085812; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:22:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJMisN085729 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:22:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id A2E591801154 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:22:38 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.34) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 22 Jul 2004 19:20:36 -0000 Received: by ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 2EAABC611D; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:22:38 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:22:38 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:22:38 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040722192238.2EAABC611D@ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, if you are interested in Elizabethan actors - I'm suppoesd to be reviewing a book by Dutton, Findlay, and Wilson (eds) called "Region, religion, and patronage: Lancastrian Shakespeare." It (from what I have read so far) deals with the actors travelling throughout the country, away from London and the playhouses. Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > AAAHHH!!! > > I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes in the 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. I recall my costuming professor saying something about traveling actors having set characters and costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the title of these troops and am just going in Google Circles. Please help! > > B -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:24:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJODRM006640 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:24:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJM8YF009701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:22:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJM2sN085182; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:22:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJLtsN085114 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:21:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040722192152.QHST1464.out001.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:21:52 -0500 Message-ID: <410013D5.6010606@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:21:57 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] elizabethan question References: <200407221855.i6MItJsO063274@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407221855.i6MItJsO063274@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:21:52 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO "Bjarne og Leif Drews" wrote: >I would say that it definately is fitted in the back. If there would have >ben floating pleats, the side would not show that sharp angle in the waist >as it does. However, that sharp waistline angle doesn't read correctly to my eye as Elizabethan. It is known that many portraits were 'restored' during VIctoria's reign, which often menat that (many times richly detailed, formal and symbolic) backgrounds were painted out, names/dates altered or added and silhouettes changed to a more attractive (Victorian) shape. I think that this portrait probably had a silhouette change. I don't know if the original gown was a loose one or if it was fitted, (nor would anyone without the opportunity to examine the painting using high-tech restoration techniques such as X-ray) but the waist silhouette showing under her arm is clearly NOT Elizabethan. My money, however, would be on loose, as such gowns were known, and I have not yet heard of such an open-front fitted gown in this era. Even if it would be an excellent solution for using that gown that one has outgrown... M. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:25:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJPnRM006646 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:25:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJKsZ5009553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:23:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJ6IsN072042; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:06:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from chori.chori.org (chori.chori.org [209.77.137.59]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJ6DsN071886 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:06:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from LDownward@chori.org) X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Sophos http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [172.19.9.241] ([172.19.9.241] verified) by chori.chori.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 1238247 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:06:05 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.4.030702.0 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:06:05 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] An Elegant Art - was: 17th-18th century costuming question... From: Lynn Downward To: h costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007401c4701c$ee494170$e5496b8c@UROPORTABLE> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO What a great offer, Agnes. Does the book have descriptions, explanations, etc or is it pictures only? Pictures only is just fine, but I wondered if there was a commentary. What would you want for a copy? I'm in Oakland, California, just so you know what to charge me for shipping. LynnD On 7/22/04 11:51 AM, "Agnes" wrote: > Lynn- I am fairly sure that book is out of print but I buy every copy I find > at used book stores - if you would like a used copy I can sell you one of > mine. > > Agnes > > >> Message: 10 >> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:04:45 -0700 >> From: Lynn Downward >> Subject: Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... >> To: h costume >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >> >> Exactly, Bjarne. Maeder was curator of that installation. I was lucky > enough >> to be in Los Angeles when it was there and got to see An Elegant Art. > Better >> yet, a friend was able to take photographs and gave me copies. I still > don't >> have the book though because they seem to be out of it in the shop when I > go >> and I just don't want to hassle ordering it. We'll be going to LACMA this >> coming week and I'll try again. >> >> LynnD >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:29:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJTORM006667 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:29:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJSmYF010320 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:28:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJSjsN090630; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:28:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJSfsN090537 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:28:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7beda.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.218]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A97C5EE03A for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:28:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <007401c47022$1e5bd3f0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407221855.i6MItJsO063274@net.indra.com> <410013D5.6010606@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] elizabethan question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:28:48 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Isnt this, (its not my period) the spanish fashion? Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maura Folsom" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] elizabethan question > "Bjarne og Leif Drews" wrote: > > >I would say that it definately is fitted in the back. If there would have > >ben floating pleats, the side would not show that sharp angle in the waist > >as it does. > > However, that sharp waistline angle doesn't read correctly to my eye as Elizabethan. It is known that many portraits were 'restored' during VIctoria's reign, which often menat that (many times richly detailed, formal and symbolic) backgrounds were painted out, names/dates altered or added and silhouettes changed to a more attractive (Victorian) shape. > > I think that this portrait probably had a silhouette change. I don't know if the original gown was a loose one or if it was fitted, (nor would anyone without the opportunity to examine the painting using high-tech restoration techniques such as X-ray) but the waist silhouette showing under her arm is clearly NOT Elizabethan. > > My money, however, would be on loose, as such gowns were known, and I have not yet heard of such an open-front fitted gown in this era. Even if it would be an excellent solution for using that gown that one has outgrown... > > M. > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:44:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJi1RM006816 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:44:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJhIYF011784 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:43:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJhGsN002469; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:43:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJh9sN002379 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:43:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA27685 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:43:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] An Elegant Art - was: 17th-18th century costumingquestion... Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:43:08 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <007401c4701c$ee494170$e5496b8c@UROPORTABLE> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have this book too and I bought it when it first came out when a special order book took 6-8 weeks to get at least. The girl at the bookstore who worked so hard to get it for me called me when it came in and asked if she could remove the shrink wrap and have a look because she wanted it if I decided I didn't. She also got me "Revolution in Fashion" and a few other costume books along the way that bookstores didn't carry and libraries wouldn't loan. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 15:56:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MJueRM007095 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:56:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJsnYF012956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:54:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJshsN011991; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:54:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf07.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf07.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MJsfsN011880 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:54:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lotsofteapots@charter.net) Received: from mxip05.cluster1.charter.net (mxip05a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.135]) by mxsf07.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6MJsZfr029090 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:54:35 -0400 Received: from c68.190.113.88.mad.wi.charter.com (HELO laptop) (68.190.113.88) by mxip05.cluster1.charter.net with SMTP; 22 Jul 2004 15:54:35 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,83,1089000000"; d="scan'208"; a="135884589:sNHT13917892" Message-ID: <009201c47025$b7934780$5871be44@mad.wi.charter.com> From: To: "Historical Costume" References: <009701c47020$20e8ab40$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:54:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, I think I get more frustrated and unhappy with teh things I make for myself. Hubby I can say "stand here, move here, no, wait....OK, how does that feel?" However, when sewing for myself, I'm saying to hubby "pin it there...no there...just a minute [look over shoulder in mirror to see back, thus distorting everything]...I think that will work." Fitting is the worst part of sewing for me, and the part that really makes it look *good*. Errrrggggh. ********************** Rebecca Schmitt aka Agnes Cabot, wife of Master Peter Cabot Bristol Renaissance Faire, Guilde of St. Lawrence My arms are too short to box with God. ~Johnny Cash lotsofteapots@charter.net ********************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 2:14 PM Subject: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends > Just a general cry to the universe here... > > why is it such a hassle to sew anything for the significant other in my > life! > > He tries to tell me what he wants, I sew it for him, but he's rarely > completely happy with it. He gets upset too because he knows the work I did, > so both of us end up frustrated and cranky. > > Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of trouble when sewing > for your spouse/family/friends? > > Sheridan > (Slaving away over a hot sewing machine...) > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > " I'm Irish! When I am well, I am better than everyone, > when I am hurt I yell at the top of my > lungs, and when I am dead I shall be deader > than anybody! " > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 16:28:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MKRxRM007824 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:28:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKQbYF016334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:26:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKQbsN037990; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:26:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out001.verizon.net (out001pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKQVsN037928 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:26:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out001.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040722202631.RDAR1464.out001.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:26:31 -0500 Message-ID: <016c01c4702a$31fc1d40$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:26:39 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out001.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:26:30 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I was under the impression that women were not allowed to be in theatre. Young feminine looking men were usually cast as female roles. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:18 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers > Definitely search for the Commedia dell'Arte. There were set characters and > set costumes/masks that the characters wore. The storylines could vary, but > if you saw a person with a certain mask appear on the stage, you knew what > type of character he was (the women didn't wear masks if I recall > correctly). Commedia dell'Arte was the precursor of a lot of performance > art, including (as I recall) vaudeville. > > Talia (in sticky humid Kansas) > > > > > something about traveling actors having set characters and > > > costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the > > > title of these troops and am just going in Google Circles. > > > Please help! > > > > > > B > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 16:31:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MKVURM007897 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:31:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKPJYF016169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:25:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKPGsN036924; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:25:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKPAsN036864 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:25:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040722202507.LHOE6671.out003.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:25:07 -0500 Message-ID: <016201c4702a$0050f720$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040722.124607.-185196793.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:25:16 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:25:07 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Merci, thank you sooo much! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress > Are you thinking of Comedia Del Arte characters? > > > > Karen > > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:38:44 -0700 "Brandy Deming" > writes: > > AAAHHH!!! > > > > I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes in > > the 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. > > I recall my costuming professor saying something about traveling > > actors having set characters and costumes to go with said > > characters. I cannot remember the title of these troops and am just > > going in Google Circles. Please help! > > > > B > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 16:39:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MKdXRM007930 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:39:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKc2YF017564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:38:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKbwsN047183; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:37:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKbqsN047127 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:37:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6MKBeE11750 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-4.152.135.240.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.152.135.240]) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BnjuN-0001Hw-00; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:11:16 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:09:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume , SCA Costumes Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <008701c47012$bd6a5080$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's _Renaissance Theater Dress_ or some title close to that by Stella Mary Newton. Grace/Jessamyn > From: "Brandy Deming" > Organization: Better Times for Small Business > Reply-To: Historical Costume > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:38:44 -0700 > To: "SCA Costumes" , "Historic Costume List" > > Subject: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress > > AAAHHH!!! > > I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes in the > 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. I recall my > costuming professor saying something about traveling actors having set > characters and costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the > title of these troops and am just going in Google Circles. Please help! > > B > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 16:51:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MKpORM008003 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:51:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKl3YF018430 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:47:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKl0sN054584; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:47:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKkvsN054531 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:46:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6MKhN8Z024920 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:43:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:48:37 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <016c01c4702a$31fc1d40$547c0f04@brandyscomp> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I believe you're correct for some areas/time periods, but unless I'm completely mis-remembering the research I did a couple years back, there were actually women who performed with the Commedia. But of course, now you've done it! I'm going to have to go dig out my references now! LOL :) Talia > > I was under the impression that women were not allowed to be in theatre. > Young feminine looking men were usually cast as female roles. > > B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 16:55:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MKtKRM008039 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:55:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKotcL018723 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:54:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKTrsN040543; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:29:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKTosN040505 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:29:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040722202950.KXZB18566.out011.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:29:50 -0500 Message-ID: <017c01c4702a$a8a7c0c0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <009701c47020$20e8ab40$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:29:58 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:29:49 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I had this problem with my spouse. He wants fantasy dress for the SCA and I would rather have him in at least semi-period garb. We found the solution on the net. He tells me what he wants and then we search to find a medium ground. I suggest going over it completely before starting. Fit, color, period, etc. Not starting until you both are absolutely sure what you want is my suggestion. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 12:14 PM Subject: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends > Just a general cry to the universe here... > > why is it such a hassle to sew anything for the significant other in my > life! > > He tries to tell me what he wants, I sew it for him, but he's rarely > completely happy with it. He gets upset too because he knows the work I did, > so both of us end up frustrated and cranky. > > Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of trouble when sewing > for your spouse/family/friends? > > Sheridan > (Slaving away over a hot sewing machine...) > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > " I'm Irish! When I am well, I am better than everyone, > when I am hurt I yell at the top of my > lungs, and when I am dead I shall be deader > than anybody! " > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 16:56:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MKuMRM008046 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:56:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKotcJ018723 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:54:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKmmsN056077; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:48:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MKmksN056049 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:48:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-02.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6MKmi9W007785 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:48:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:50:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <016c01c4702a$31fc1d40$547c0f04@brandyscomp> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ahh...addendum to previous message about having to find my references re females in the Commedia...here's at least one mentioned by name: Andreini, Isabella Canali (´´zäbl´lä ändr´n) (KEY) , 1562–1604, Italian actress. Beautiful, elegant, and well-educated, she was one of the most famous performers of her time. She joined the Gelosi troupe, becoming a leading player, and married the troupe’s manager, Francesco Andreini, in 1578. She wrote the pastoral Mirtilla (1588); her collected letters appeared in 1607. Andreini was lauded by the poets Tasso and Marini. 1 See R. Gilder, Enter the Actress (1931). Talia > > I was under the impression that women were not allowed to be in theatre. > Young feminine looking men were usually cast as female roles. > > B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 17:06:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ML6ORM008189 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:06:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ML5VYF020429 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:05:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ML5TsN070362; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:05:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from intake.ripco.com (root@intake.ripco.com [209.100.227.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ML5MsN070221 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:05:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from zski@ripco.com) Received: from pop2a.ripco.com (root@pop2a.ripco.com [209.100.227.25]) by intake.ripco.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ML5G2s020667 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:05:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ripco.com (tcr93.dynip.ripco.net [209.100.226.93]) by pop2a.ripco.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ML5CSu017398 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:05:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <41002BFD.5010309@ripco.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:05:01 -0500 From: zski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends References: <200407222031.i6MKUFsP040905@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407222031.i6MKUFsP040905@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It's not so much my family/friends as there are just some people who are never satisfied. There are some people I just won't sew for any more. Our guitarist is the main one. He was never happy, wanted free alterations years down the line, always complained about the cost, and never thanked me. So now he spends way too much buying crappy stuff off-the-rack at faires, and looks like a rag-bag, and I have made up my mind not to care. There are lots of other people who are willing to pay what I'm worth and show off my stuff. So there. Pbbbth! Wendy Z sweating away in Chicago, IL _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 17:08:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ML8hRM008205 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:08:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ML87YF020724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:08:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ML84sN072518; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:08:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ML80sN072433 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:08:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE14427C3D for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:07:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p130.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.132]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D2EC8D3F0 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:07:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] elizabethan question Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:07:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <007401c47022$1e5bd3f0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have seen this type of "overgown" in an Italian painting somewhere. Also, a French or Spanish portrait. Real late 1500s early 1600s if I recall but I can remember where or what portrait. I would say that it is either a. pinned into place. b. attached with hooks and eyes. c. (less likely) sewn to the plastron as a part of the dress. De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 17:25:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MLPnRM008272 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:25:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MLJ6YF021846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:19:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MLJ4sN081882; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:19:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MLIwsN081817 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:18:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gawne@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin02-en2 [10.13.10.147]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i6MLIsas012302 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from UROPORTABLE (dhcp073229.fhcrc.org [140.107.73.229]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin02/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id i6MLIXVd024792 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00b801c47031$75a0fe10$e5496b8c@UROPORTABLE> From: "Agnes" To: References: <200407222031.i6MKUFsP040905@net.indra.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:18:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: An Elegant Art - was: 17th-18th century costuming X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lynn- I will answer the description from memory - it has both images and text. There is a fair amount of text just about the skills of sewing and embroidery in the 18th century as well as some specific things about garments shown. We should take the money/shipping discussion off line if you want one of mine, but I wouldn't be offended if you took one from a bookseller. I just buy them when I see them because I know someone in costuming will want it someday. Before the internet booksearches (ABE books, Bookfinder) were so easy to use it was hard to find out of print costume books. Agnes > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:06:05 -0700 > From: Lynn Downward > Subject: Re: [h-cost] An Elegant Art - was: 17th-18th century > costuming question... > To: h costume > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > What a great offer, Agnes. Does the book have descriptions, explanations, > etc or is it pictures only? Pictures only is just fine, but I wondered if > there was a commentary. What would you want for a copy? I'm in Oakland, > California, just so you know what to charge me for shipping. > > LynnD > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 17:44:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MLimRM008380 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:44:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MLgnYF024370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:42:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MLgjsN001404; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:42:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MLgcsN001318 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:42:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BnlKl-0005z0-00; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:42:35 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:42:37 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c47034$ce926f10$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Fabrics for the Elizabethan selected! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO We went shopping this past week for fabrics. Thought you might want to take a peak. http://www.saragrace.net/3E_2_QEW_MasterPln.html http://www.saragrace.net/3E_6_QEW_Fabric &Trims.html Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 19:09:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MN90RM008779 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:09:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MN7oYF004555 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:07:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MN7jsN067148; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:07:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MN7gsN067061 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:07:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1A00ECX08NS6@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:07:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1A002SV08NZ6@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:07:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:07:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:07:35 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, you read Wimsey. How wonderful!!! I don't think I have met a person who has even heard of him, let alone read him, for going onto 20 years. And yes, that scene totally applies here. I think Bjarne would always know and it would always bother him. Bettina From: ruthanne baumgartner Subject: Re: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. To: Historical Costume Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" That's what I would do, Bjarne. Your hand-sewing is so precise and small that I'm sure you could make the change invisibly, especially if you pressed the seam allowance under before sewing. I have joined seams from the right side with an in-and-out stitch (in effect, a running stitch in the seam creases) that conceals itself even with stitches as long as 1/8". And since the bodice is completely lined, you wouldn't have to worry about strains on the new seam. One of my favorite books is the mystery "Gaudy Night," by Dorothy L. Sayers. In it the heroine receives an antique chess set as a gift from the hero/detective--the chess pieces are from China, pieces of ivory carved with nested balls. Before buying the set, the hero examines each chess piece very carefully to make sure they are all original and perfect. Harriet, the heroine, says she understands why this is important--because if they were not all original, no matter how beautiful the set was, whenever someone admired it she would feel compelled to say "Of course, one of the pawns is modern." The reason I remember this now, in this context, is that I believe every time you think of this gorgeous dress, if you do not correct the pattern repeat that is now bothering you you will say to yourself "Well, it was beautiful, yes, EXCEPT for that bad pattern repeat." Since you have enough fabric to replace the piece, I think you're right that an extra night of sewing will pay off in your own satisfaction and pride in your work. Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 19:31:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MNVmRM008879 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:31:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNV9YF006618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:31:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNV5sN083816; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:31:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm01.prodigy.net (ylpvm01-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNV2sN083770 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:31:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nomadmt@pacbell.net) Received: from nomad (adsl-63-195-131-242.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net [63.195.131.242]) by ylpvm01.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6MNV1At022475 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:31:01 -0400 Message-ID: <056b01c47044$d62a4d00$6b39a8c0@OpalSun> From: "Margo Glenn-Lewis" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece)OT Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:37:21 -0700 Organization: Home for the Incurably Strange MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Have you read Thrones, Dominions - the last of the novels left unfinished by Miss Sayers completed by Jill Paton Walsh? Obligatory costume content - Harriet is much concerned with matters of dress in this book (well, more than usual) and in fact one of the important clues in the mystery portion is a collar the murdered woman is wearing. Margo Glenn-Lewis "Don't forget your bucket" Ice Machine in the Desert - Brave Combo ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:07 PM Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) > Oh, you read Wimsey. How wonderful!!! I don't think I have met a person who has even heard of him, let alone read him, for going onto 20 years. > > And yes, that scene totally applies here. I think Bjarne would always know and it would always bother him. > > Bettina > > > > From: ruthanne baumgartner > Subject: Re: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. > To: Historical Costume > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > That's what I would do, Bjarne. Your hand-sewing is so precise and small that I'm sure you could make the change invisibly, especially if you pressed the seam allowance under before sewing. I have joined seams from the right side with an in-and-out stitch (in effect, a running stitch in the seam > creases) that conceals itself even with stitches as long as 1/8". And since the bodice is completely lined, you wouldn't have to worry about strains on the new seam. > > One of my favorite books is the mystery "Gaudy Night," by Dorothy L. Sayers. In it the heroine receives an antique chess set as a gift from the hero/detective--the chess pieces are from China, pieces of ivory carved with nested balls. Before buying the set, the hero examines each chess piece very carefully to make sure they are all original and perfect. Harriet, the heroine, says she understands why this is important--because if they were not all original, no matter how beautiful the set was, whenever someone admired it she would feel compelled to say "Of course, one of the pawns is modern." > > The reason I remember this now, in this context, is that I believe every time you think of this gorgeous dress, if you do not correct the pattern repeat that is now bothering you you will say to yourself "Well, it was beautiful, yes, EXCEPT for that bad pattern repeat." > > Since you have enough fabric to replace the piece, I think you're right that an extra night of sewing will pay off in your own satisfaction and pride in your work. > > Ruth Anne Baumgartner > scholar gypsy and amateur costumer > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 19:35:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MNZPRM008895 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:35:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNXcYF006850 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:33:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNXcsN085655; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:33:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6MNXVsN085515 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:33:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCkpxszUmUT0Fo0YnLx+PHu0CqnqvSkT+vQ== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J26998CG; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:33:07 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:10:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) Message-ID: <20040722.181048.-185196793.2.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-17 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm a huge Wimsey fan! Have been since back in the 70's when Ian Carmicheal did his fabulous take on Lord Peter. I have all the books, all the Edward Petherbridge movies, and I'm working on the Carmicheals. as my whimsy takes me..... Karen On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:07:35 -0400 bettina.anderson@direcway.com writes: > Oh, you read Wimsey. How wonderful!!! I don't think I have met a > person who has even heard of him, let alone read him, for going onto > 20 years. > > And yes, that scene totally applies here. I think Bjarne would > always know and it would always bother him. > > Bettina ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 19:41:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MNfKRM008909 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:41:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNeiYF007383 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:40:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNedsN090356; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:40:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6MNebsN090234 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:40:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OrfiQxQwgWqglaJQjPjBEKA= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J27ANLNK; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:39:53 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:21:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers Message-ID: <20040722.163851.1512.3.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-30 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I remember the same thing. Someone used Commedia in an A&S Competition and was talking about that. Arlys On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:48:37 -0500 "khanson" writes: > I believe you're correct for some areas/time periods, but unless I'm > completely mis-remembering the research I did a couple years back, > there > were actually women who performed with the Commedia. But of course, > now > you've done it! I'm going to have to go dig out my references now! > LOL :) > > Talia > > > > > > > > I was under the impression that women were not allowed to be in > theatre. > > Young feminine looking men were usually cast as female roles. > > > > B > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 19:50:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MNorRM008935 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:50:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNhoYF007548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:43:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNhnsN092421; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:43:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MNhisO092372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:43:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6MNf6tY022404 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:41:06 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <41005123.4060402@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:43:31 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Sock info 1661 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thought y'all might be interested in this excerpt: Monday 22 July 1661 http://www.pepysdiary.com/archive/1661/07/22/index.php Up by three, and going by four on my way to London; but the day proves very cold, so that having put on no stockings but thread ones under my boots, I was fain at Bigglesworth to buy a pair of coarse woollen ones, and put them on. -- Cynthia Virtue Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 19:54:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6MNseRM008945 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:54:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIr8YF006624 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:53:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIr7sN061544; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:53:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6MIr2sN061483 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:53:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24455 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:57:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:57:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, JAMES OGILVIE wrote: > It's later than you want (I think most of the Comedia del Arte is too) > but there is a book out called Costumes and Scripts in the Elizabethan > Theatre . I don't know whether it has much on earlier periods or not. Clifford Davidson has done some work on costume in medieval drama. I don't know if he's done a book on that per se, but I do think he did one on material culture in medieval drama, which would probably include some discussion of costume. Don't know what period it covers; it's been a while since I've seen the title. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 20:04:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N04VRM009021 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:04:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N03hYF009036 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:03:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N03gsN005986; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:03:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N03asO005924 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:03:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6N018tY022770 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:01:08 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410055D5.3070206@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:03:33 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question References: <40FFFC2F.3050003@thibault.org> <003601c4701d$6abeace0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <003601c4701d$6abeace0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > The very first bobbin lace printed book was printed in 1557. Le Pompe. It > was an invention that some say came from Italy. So you could give her that > lace edged handkerchief. She will love you for it! Thanks, Bjarne, and Danielle! That's good info. Second part of the question: the friend plays a noble man. Would a *man* have had a lace edged handkerchief? (Sorry -- I should have asked that with the first part!) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Abstract words such as glory, honor, courage, or hallow were obscene. -- Ernest Hemingway _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 20:04:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N04WRM009024 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:04:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N03JYF008998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:03:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N03GsN005702; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:03:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web50606.mail.yahoo.com (web50606.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.93]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6N03AsN005613 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:03:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040723000301.3070.qmail@web50606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.49.146.76] by web50606.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:03:01 EDT Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:03:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathy Page Subject: Re: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407222030.i6MKUFsN040905@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I *think* this is a matter of cultural difference. The English used boys as women and the Italians used real women. Different type of theatre as well - one was scripted and directed, the other was largely improvised. They were unmasked as well, I believe to further attract audiences with their beauty. The Character "Colombina" did not have a mask until well into the 1700's, when the whole masks in everyday life thing went completely nuts. Each character had a distinct appearance, and often the actor would play that same character all his career. Masks were made of leather (other products as well I'm sure, but no proof on any except leather) and would eventually mold to the face of its owner through heat and moisture. They became intimately familiar with their characters and were able to make up scenes on the spot with considerable ease, which is why for the most part the Commedia community was so resistant to being scripted, which began to happen in the mid 1500's. Commedia Dell'arte is the source for the term "slapstick", one of the props used was a sword that had a wooden clapper nailed to it, and it was slapped against the behinds or other various soft body parts of others, creating a loud smack. Called - the slapstick. Kathy ~More interested in Martedi Grassi masks, but picks up Commedia information by default along the way~ I was under the impression that women were not allowed to be in theatre. Young feminine looking men were usually cast as female roles. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 20:44:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N0iDRM009275 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:44:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N0h5YF011682 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:43:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N0h2fA029673; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:43:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6N0gxfA029655 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:43:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kavavita@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id c11so41rnb for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.90.2 with SMTP id n2mr317100rnb; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4f0c1b12040722174210fb8dfc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:42:57 -0700 From: heather meadows To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk Trading Company In-Reply-To: <40FF4ADA.4080202@lavoltapress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <40FF4ADA.4080202@lavoltapress.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I notice their site says they get their fabrics from LA. Does anyone have any idea who their vendor is? Getting those at wholesale would be quite a treat... .heather. On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:04:26 -0700, Lavolta Press wrote: > The Silk Trading Company finally put up their new website: > > http://www.silktrading.com/ > > Which has a much smaller selection than their local store. On the other > hand, this website works, whereas the old one was partly broken and all > the illos had a greeny-brown cast. They sell silk velvet, though if > it's like what I've seen in their store it's heavy upholstery weight. > > Fran Grimble > Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming (http://www.lavoltapress.com) > Children's Literature winner of the 2004 Bulwer-Lytton Contest > (http://www.bulwer-lytton.com) > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 20:54:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N0s9RM009337 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:54:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N0rbYF012418 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:53:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N0rafA036362; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:53:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N0rXfA036267 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:53:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gia_gavino@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.113 ([204.127.197.113]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004072300532801300qnonee>; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:53:28 +0000 Received: from [24.16.242.58] by 204.127.197.113; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:53:26 +0000 From: gia_gavino@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:53:26 +0000 Message-Id: <072320040053.14041.41006186000CF70F000036D92200745672010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Z2lhX2dhdmlub0Bjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I used to...then I stopped sewing for said spouse/family. I figure that if they have something to gripe about, after slaving away on clothing/costumes for him/her, they can just do it themselves. I now sew for those who are just glad to get good workmanship and a pretty piece of clothing/costume. I'm afraid I've gotten a tad more protective of my sanity and self-esteem. It was not an easy thing to learn, since I always really wanted to to make something special. Of course, each person is different. Others most likely wouldn't have the any problem just dealing with the spouse/family. I've had to figure out what my limits were the hard way. Hugs! Hang in there! -- Slan go foill Elena (Emer) nic Tighearnaigh -------------- Original message -------------- > Just a general cry to the universe here... > > why is it such a hassle to sew anything for the significant other in my > life! > > He tries to tell me what he wants, I sew it for him, but he's rarely > completely happy with it. He gets upset too because he knows the work I did, > so both of us end up frustrated and cranky. > > Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of trouble when sewing > for your spouse/family/friends? > > Sheridan > (Slaving away over a hot sewing machine...) > > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > " I'm Irish! When I am well, I am better than everyone, > when I am hurt I yell at the top of my > lungs, and when I am dead I shall be deader > than anybody! " > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 21:20:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N1KYRM009444 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:20:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N1DaYF013681 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:13:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N1DYfA047762; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:13:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jade.spiritone.com (jade.spiritone.com [216.99.193.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N1DSfB047681 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:13:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wandap@hevanet.com) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by jade.spiritone.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6N1DPZ0008807 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:13:26 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:21:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20040722.181048.-185196793.2.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Now you have "met" two others. I loved the PBS/BBC creations. I wish they could morph the actors into looking the way Peter is described, but the acting overcame that. Did they ever do one of Busman's Honeymoon? I saw the movie years ago with Robert Montgomery as Peter. I was happy with it until I read the book. Then I wanted the "real thing". When I was in Oxford I had to go and see Balliol and Magdalene Colleges as well as the bridge. Regina > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of seamstrix@juno.com > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:11 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) > > > I'm a huge Wimsey fan! Have been since back in the 70's when Ian > Carmicheal did his fabulous take on Lord Peter. I have all the books, all > the Edward Petherbridge movies, and I'm working on the Carmicheals. > > as my whimsy takes me..... > > > Karen > > > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:07:35 -0400 bettina.anderson@direcway.com writes: > > Oh, you read Wimsey. How wonderful!!! I don't think I have met a > > person who has even heard of him, let alone read him, for going onto > > 20 years. > > > > And yes, that scene totally applies here. I think Bjarne would > > always know and it would always bother him. > > > > Bettina > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 21:41:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N1foRM009528 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:41:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N1fKYF015652 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:41:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N1fGfA063922; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:41:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6N1fEfA063904 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:41:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 31965 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2004 01:41:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 23 Jul 2004 01:41:51 -0000 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com); by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1119.24.4.69.40.1090546874.squirrel@24.4.69.40> In-Reply-To: <072320040053.14041.41006186000CF70F000036D92200745672010207900E09A10E 0709@comcast.net> References: <072320040053.14041.41006186000CF70F000036D92200745672010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I used to...then I stopped sewing for said spouse/family. I figure that > if they have something to gripe about, after slaving away on > clothing/costumes for him/her, they can just do it themselves. I now sew > for those who are just glad to get good workmanship and a pretty piece of > clothing/costume. > I'm afraid I've gotten a tad more protective of my sanity and self-esteem. > It was not an easy thing to learn, since I always really wanted to to > make something special. Although I have a picky SO, he is appropriately appreciative of what I have made him and the work involved. I just really think that it depends on the person you are sewing for. I ONLY sew for very good friends and loved ones because I have seen other people go through the agony of sewing for cheap, deluded, unappreciative clients. They "think" they know what they want, won't listen to your professional opinion, and are delusional about how the outfit will look or fit on them. And when the final garment is given to them, it doesn't look or fit right and is unflattering....just like you tried to tell them. Nope, not something I want to deal with. I admire others who do.... Diana Diana Habra www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 22:40:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N2egRM009763 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:40:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N2e8YF019923 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:40:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N2e3fA098848; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:40:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N2e2fA098743 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:40:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004072302395501400f4r1oe>; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:39:55 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:38:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] THE Banana, was OT: Veg vs. fruit From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6N2e2fA098743 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, as we know, early 1970s computer programming experiments exposed the time fly to its more mundane cousin, the fruit fly; perhaps the time flies finally learned to like a banana? Lauren > From: "Marc Carlson" > > There's an amusing story there, which we might ascribe to cynical rumor, it > it weren't for the fact that I know just how important it is to find funding > and support for archaeology. When the (whole) banana was found in the > Tooley street dig in 1999, it was immeadiately snatched up and touted the > press as the Tudor banana, and "might have come from the table of the King" > or somesuch (completely overlooking the obvious question of what a single > intact banana from the table of the King would be doing in a Southwark trash > pit), and put on display at the MOL. At the point it was lauched on its > career in the public eye, it had undergone no preservation, no real > research, and the other items in that part of the dig had not been contexted > yet, so God only knows when it really came from. I assume that when the dig > is fully written up and published it will have a better date for that > blackened plantain :) [Of course, by that time, it will have been referred > to and cited as being "tudor" whether it is or not.] > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 23:06:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N36xRM009909 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:06:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N35bYF021885 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:05:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N35afA013866; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:05:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N359fA013532 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:05:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 369BD51C58 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040722200225.02448050@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:04:18 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress In-Reply-To: <008701c47012$bd6a5080$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:38 AM 7/22/2004 -0700, you wrote: >AAAHHH!!! > >I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes in the >14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. I recall >my costuming professor saying something about traveling actors having set >characters and costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the >title of these troops and am just going in Google Circles. Please help! > >B Well, in England late 16thc. they were named after their benefactors, like the King's Men, or Derby's Men, etc. But I think that is from Shakespeare's time, more or less. Kimiko _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 23:07:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N37ARM009912 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:07:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N35hYF021904 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:05:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N35gfA013921; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:05:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N359fA013540 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:05:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id B941651C59 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040722200432.0244c1a8@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:05:05 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costume College In-Reply-To: <00e901c47013$bb25c240$547c0f04@brandyscomp> References: <008301c46f2b$5b5a7bf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <40FF25E4.2080800@oldwaylane.net> <1039.24.4.69.40.1090471939.squirrel@24.4.69.40> <5.2.1.1.0.20040722003006.02392d18@64.87.54.245> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:45 AM 7/22/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I'm in Washington, and I would love to attend. But (take no offence) I avoid >LA like the plauge. No offense taken. I usually avoid LA as well, even tho I have friends there who I should see more often. Kimiko _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 23:07:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N37ERM009915 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:07:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N35IYF021852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:05:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N35DfA013569; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:05:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from keaton.its.csufresno.edu (keaton.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.178]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N359fA013524 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:05:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by keaton.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752C451C54 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040722195207.0244a2a0@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:55:58 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends In-Reply-To: <009701c47020$20e8ab40$cb6afea9@sherry> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 03:14 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of trouble when sewing >for your spouse/family/friends? > >Sheridan >(Slaving away over a hot sewing machine...) No, I have not had this problem, at least with my husbands and friends. My husband loves anything I do, and he knows that I put in a lot of time over it. He also isn't picky, because he knows I want him to look as good as possible. My friends, I design on paper first and work things as we go to make them as happy as possible, and believe me they tell me exactly when they like or don't like a thing. And my son, well he's a toddler, and he would be very happy running around naked, which he does at home often. I have made him one outfit, which proved to be too hot (cotton velveteen dress and cotton chemise). His next outfit will be of linen and only one layer. And I expect he will take that off, too. Kimiko _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 23:09:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N39MRM009930 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:09:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N38SYF022064 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:08:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N38SfA015563; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:08:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N38OfB015534 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:08:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6N38hTo022306 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:09:39 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Ruffles and hems (long) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:13:48 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFAA@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFAA@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407222313.48202.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 22 July 2004 6:15 am, Teddy wrote: [snip] > > Note also that each of these white areas has a series of > > small lines along the bottom edge. It might be stitching, or > > a weird sort of reverse gather, but if you read this as a > > folded-up skirt, it could be the rippling of the folded edge. > > Or the pile of the fur, which would be more distinct at a folded edge > over a contrast/darker colour than it would be in a plain mass of fur > lining away from the fold. Yes, that's how I see it. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 23:12:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N3CxRM009943 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:12:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3ARYF022170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:10:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3AQfA016740; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:10:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3AKfB016707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:10:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6N3Bcl8022461 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:11:40 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:16:43 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407221806.i6MI6caX081400@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407221806.i6MI6caX081400@sabre.goldsword.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407222316.43535.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=PLING_QUERY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 22 July 2004 2:06 pm, Susan Farmer wrote: > > On Wednesday 21 July 2004 7:38 am, Teddy wrote: [actually, I wrote:] > > Frankly, I can't see enough of the relevant areas of "Felicite's" gown > > around that red cloak wrapped around her to see whether there's anything > > like a princess seam or not. > > The "seam" starts about where the cloak meets her neckline and continues > to where the "seam" hits the juncture of sleeve and wrist. You can see > the line on the other sidestarting about the big nuckle on her hand and > disappearing into the cloak. Yes, I see it now. However, what I see could just as easily be a fold in the material as a seam. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 23:16:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N3GNRM009976 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:16:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3CiYF022346 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:12:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3ChfA017989; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:12:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3CffA017961 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:12:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0503.dialsprint.net ([63.186.145.249]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BnqUC-0002vd-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:12:40 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:13:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Read him! For years he spoiled me for any real social life--no guy seemed to come close to Lord Peter. Great to hear from somebody else who knows the books. I do know a few other Wimsey aficionados. What wonderful books, eh? And how about that cloth-of-gold dress Harriet has made for her wedding? Ruth Anne on 7/22/04 7:07 PM, bettina.anderson@direcway.com at bettina.anderson@direcway.com wrote: > Oh, you read Wimsey. How wonderful!!! I don't think I have met a person who > has even heard of him, let alone read him, for going onto 20 years. > > And yes, that scene totally applies here. I think Bjarne would always know > and it would always bother him. > > Bettina > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 23:41:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N3fcRM010066 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:41:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3eHYF024461 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:40:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3eCfA033359; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:40:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3eAfA033274 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:40:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20j0.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.96] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bnqui-0005kV-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:40:04 -0700 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040722205440.021dd3a8@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:55:14 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200407220228.i6M2SqsO043626@net.indra.com> References: <200407220228.i6M2SqsO043626@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] King Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sandy and I saw King Arthur last night. A bigger mess we haven't seen since Elizabeth a number of years ago. It shared the same sense of historicity as that film as well. From Saxons invading to crossbows about 1,000 years early to disrespect for Christianity, to blatantly incorrect information on the philosophy and fate of Pelagius to the "uniforms" worn by the "knights" it consists of one error after another. The logic of the film is also quite questionable. Not recommended. Pierre and Sandy "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 22 23:48:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N3mkRM010111 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:48:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3mFYF025211 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:48:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3mEfA038029; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:48:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com (imo-m24.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N3mBfA037965 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:48:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from FyneHats2@aol.com) Received: from FyneHats2@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.da.f5553ed (17228) for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:48:04 -0400 (EDT) From: FyneHats2@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:48:03 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dear Brandy, I believe what you are looking for is Commedia del'arte troupes who originated in Italy but roamed around Europe. The main characters were: Harlequin, Colombina, El Capitano, El Dottore, Pantalone, Isabella, The Lover (going under various names), Scapino & Punchinello among many others. Try googling for commedia del' arte and see if that will help you. Donna Scarfe Fyne Hats By Felicity Period Headgear for Past Ages www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com > From: "Brandy Deming" > Subject: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress > > AAAHHH!!! > > I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes in the > 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. I recall my > costuming professor saying something about traveling actors having set characters > and costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the title of these > troops and am just going in Google Circles. Please help! > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 00:22:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N4MLRM010226 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:22:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4KAYF027245 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:20:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4K8fA056284; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:20:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4K6fA056229 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:20:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.7d.53ada72a (3996) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:19:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <7d.53ada72a.2e31ebeb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:19:55 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/22/04 2:17:41 PM Central Daylight Time, shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca writes: Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of trouble when sewing for your spouse/family/friends? Sheridan (Slaving away over a hot sewing machine...) I have the perfect solution for you, which I have tried and found successful myself in the past. Teach him to sew. Either he will discover that he's good at it and the burden will be off you, or he will discover that it's not nearly as easy as it looks and be more accepting of the work you do for him. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 00:31:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N4VQRM010247 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:31:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4TZYF027837 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:29:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4TXfA061627; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:29:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m19.mx.aol.com (imo-m19.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4TRfA061514 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:29:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1e9.25aad793 (3996) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:29:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1e9.25aad793.2e31ee1e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:29:18 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/22/04 10:41:08 PM Central Daylight Time, costumrs@radiks.net writes: Sandy and I saw King Arthur last night. A bigger mess we haven't seen since Elizabeth a number of years ago. Yeah, but dang, the knights are good looking. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 00:41:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N4foRM010271 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:41:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4elYF028478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:40:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4ehfA067819; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:40:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4ecfA067789 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:40:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20j0.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.96] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BnrrJ-0007Yy-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:40:37 -0700 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040722230158.0234f640@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:05:40 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200407222031.i6MKUFsO040905@net.indra.com> References: <200407222031.i6MKUFsO040905@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: spouses X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't - he wants something, he makes it himself! I'm with Rebecca - the biggest hassle for me is fitting me - since I never seem to be the same size two costumes in a row... :( Sandy >From: "Shane & Sheridan" >Subject: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends > >Just a general cry to the universe here... >why is it such a hassle to sew anything for the significant other in my >life! >He tries to tell me what he wants, I sew it for him, but he's rarely >completely happy with it. He gets upset too because he knows the work I did, >so both of us end up frustrated and cranky. >Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of trouble when sewing >for your spouse/family/friends? > >Sheridan "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 00:47:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N4lSRM010297 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:47:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4itYF028619 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:44:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N4itfA070238; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:44:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6N4iqfA070156 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:44:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/Ou9MYLBFZXaARJ9fdfN94SA= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J27T4NXZ; Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:44:39 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 21:26:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress Message-ID: <20040722.214335.1544.1.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-45 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have a friend who got his SCA Laurel for Commedia and another who plays a female part in his troupe. Would you like their addies? Arlys On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:48:03 EDT FyneHats2@aol.com writes: > Dear Brandy, > > I believe what you are looking for is Commedia del'arte troupes who > originated in Italy but roamed around Europe. The main characters > were: Harlequin, > Colombina, El Capitano, El Dottore, Pantalone, Isabella, The Lover > (going under > various names), Scapino & Punchinello among many others. Try > googling for > commedia del' arte and see if that will help you. > > > Donna Scarfe > Fyne Hats By Felicity > Period Headgear for Past Ages > www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com > > > > From: "Brandy Deming" > > Subject: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress > > > > AAAHHH!!! > > > > I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes > in the > > 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. I > recall my > > costuming professor saying something about traveling actors having > set characters > > and costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the > title of these > > troops and am just going in Google Circles. Please help! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:33:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N7X1RM006450 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:33:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N7WKYF009327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:32:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N7W2fA065325; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:32:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N7VsfA065176 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:31:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004072307314001400evt76e>; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:31:40 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] elizabethan question Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 00:31:41 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <410013D5.6010606@verizon.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-DCC--Metrics: net.indra.com 1074; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have to agree this is NOT like any Elizabethan silhouette I have ever seen and this is my time frame of focus. I'm guessing that the black was probably a court robe. The top layer that was not fitted that went on over everything else. Janet Arnold actually has a nice layout for them. I've seen several examples of them showing that beautiful standing collar though. I've seem paintings with them open and draping from the shoulder and closed from collar to floor. The back portion is usually cartridge pleated across the back and loose. If you magnify the picture you can see some texture detailing on the black material in large round patterns that don't lay right if the silhouette shown was the original. I've seen a couple of these made up for ren faires and typically they are being used by a Lady disguising a physical issue. One of the groups I've preformed with has one that has traveled around a bit and is typically referred to as "Her Pregnancy" It was used also to allow a lady to perform that her doctor had forbidden a corset to. Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Maura Folsom Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 12:22 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] elizabethan question "Bjarne og Leif Drews" wrote: >I would say that it definately is fitted in the back. If there would have >ben floating pleats, the side would not show that sharp angle in the waist >as it does. However, that sharp waistline angle doesn't read correctly to my eye as Elizabethan. It is known that many portraits were 'restored' during VIctoria's reign, which often menat that (many times richly detailed, formal and symbolic) backgrounds were painted out, names/dates altered or added and silhouettes changed to a more attractive (Victorian) shape. I think that this portrait probably had a silhouette change. I don't know if the original gown was a loose one or if it was fitted, (nor would anyone without the opportunity to examine the painting using high-tech restoration techniques such as X-ray) but the waist silhouette showing under her arm is clearly NOT Elizabethan. My money, however, would be on loose, as such gowns were known, and I have not yet heard of such an open-front fitted gown in this era. Even if it would be an excellent solution for using that gown that one has outgrown... M. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:40:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N7eGRM007474 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:40:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N7dHYF009712 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:39:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N7dEfA069588; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:39:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N7d9fA069541 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:39:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5976283B4 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:39:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p433.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.215.179]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id A0E70D3F0 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:39:07 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:39:10 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <200407221806.i6MI6caX081400@sabre.goldsword.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] princess seams/sideless + oddity X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO After looking at the outfit a bit more I think I am incline to believe it to be a sideless from the shadows. Is it just me or does Fortuna have a face on the back of her head or is it hair that looks like a face? (Her hat makes me think she was the original cone head. :) -----Original Message----- > [snip] > > > (A) Split skirt. Felicite -either she has a matching blue > > > sideless on or she has princess seams. > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/francoisM_HappinessFortune.jp g > > > > That one is a puzzler. > (snip) The "seam" starts about where the cloak meets her neckline and continues to where the "seam" hits the juncture of sleeve and wrist. You can see the line on the other sidestarting about the big nuckle on her hand and disappearing into the cloak. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 03:54:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N7sDRM014151 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:54:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N7raYF010438 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:53:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N7rYfA077339; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:53:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N7rWfA077317 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:53:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:52:07 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFB4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Thread-Index: AcRwK/Gt9PPzxFCzSOa/H+4hJ3LDKwAXSNUw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of > trouble when sewing for your spouse/family/friends? Poor you! I must be lucky. My S.O. makes his own garb. I did make him a robe based on one of the Herjolfsness finds for christmas and he loves that. I frequently sew for friends whio don't sew and they seem delighted with what I make them. Perhaps there's a communication problem between the two of you. Perhaps you need to go into great detail over what he wants to be sure you're both getting the same mental picture from his description before you start to cut or sew - and do regular updates while it's in progress? Find or draw pictures of the garments so you're both sure of the details etc. If that doesn't work, he may have to get his garb elsewhere. Buy it, work a trade for it with another costumer... something, anything, to save both your tempers Good Luck! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 04:06:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N86SRM019159 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:06:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N85nYF011177 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:05:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N85lfA083857; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:05:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N85ifA083833 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:05:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:05:03 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] elizabethan question To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFB5@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] elizabethan question Thread-Index: AcRwK/Gt9PPzxFCzSOa/H+4hJ3LDKwAXlP7w content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > However, that sharp waistline angle doesn't read correctly to > my eye as Elizabethan. It is known that many portraits were > 'restored' during VIctoria's reign, which often menat that > (many times richly detailed, formal and symbolic) backgrounds > were painted out, names/dates altered or added and > silhouettes changed to a more attractive (Victorian) shape. > > I think that this portrait probably had a silhouette change. > I don't know if the original gown was a loose one or if it > was fitted, (nor would anyone without the opportunity to > examine the painting using high-tech restoration techniques > such as X-ray) but the waist silhouette showing under her arm > is clearly NOT Elizabethan. I was thinking the same thing. Another possible indication of this is the sleeve on the right of the picture. The little gold flower/star thjings in the pattern of the under-sleeve (and partlet and collar lining etc) have what looks liek a pearl hanging from the middle - on the opposite sleeve, you can see that they are raised in the centre and the pearl sticks out (is not flat against the fabric) from the one that falls at the very edge of the sleeve where it disappears around the back of the arm. it sticks out against the beackground colour. There is a place on the right hand sleeve (sitter's left) where this should also happen - but instead, a relatively flat edge between the sleeve and background is seen, possibly form the background beign repainted. And the nipped-in waist definately looks Victorian. It's possible the gown is a loose one, the restorer/alterer didn't understand the garment or wanted to present a more (to the Victorian eye) attractive silhouette and overpainted the black fabric witht he background colour to dfine the waist. > My money, however, would be on loose, as such gowns were known, and I have > not yet heard of such an open-front fitted gown in this era. Even if it would be an > excellent solution for using that gown that one has outgrown... I think it's more likely a kloose gown than, for example, a doublet bodiced gown worn open all the way down the front and deliberately made so it is too small to close.... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 04:15:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N8FoRM023231 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:15:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N8EDYF011595 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:14:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N8EBfA088148; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:14:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N8E8fA088100 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:14:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:08:47 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFB6@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Thread-Index: AcRwK/Gt9PPzxFCzSOa/H+4hJ3LDKwAYBMyw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Actually, I think I get more frustrated and unhappy with teh > things I make for myself. Hubby I can say "stand here, move > here, no, wait....OK, how does that feel?" However, when > sewing for myself, I'm saying to hubby "pin it there...no > there...just a minute [look over shoulder in mirror to see > back, thus distorting everything]...I think that will work." > Fitting is the worst part of sewing for me, and the part that > really makes it look *good*. Errrrggggh. Something that *might* help a little; Get a big free-standing mirror. That way you can position it so that it reflects the mirror that your back is to and you can see the back without twisting 'round and distorting the fit. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 04:17:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N8HdRM024241 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:17:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N8H8YF011756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:17:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N8H7fA089580; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:17:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N8H3fA089268 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:17:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6N8H3C23520.; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:17:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:16:27 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:16:11 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I like Wimsey too (and Margery Allingham's Albert Campion). Personally, I preferred Edward Petherbridge's version of him to Ian Carmichael's. Anyone read Dorothy Sayers' collected letters? She once met a man who she said was exactly her idea of what Peter Wimsey looked like. We now know from the letters that she had in fact seen him years before, but had not consciously remembered doing so. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> seamstrix@juno.com 23/07/2004 00:10:47 >>> I'm a huge Wimsey fan! Have been since back in the 70's when Ian Carmicheal did his fabulous take on Lord Peter. I have all the books, all the Edward Petherbridge movies, and I'm working on the Carmicheals. as my whimsy takes me..... Karen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 04:28:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N8SIRM025647 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:28:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N8QfYF012294 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:26:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N8QefA092621; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:26:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.pacifier.net (smtp1.pacifier.net [64.255.237.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N8QdfA092613 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:26:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scourney@nwlink.com) Received: from susan (ip157.usw235.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [207.202.235.157]) by smtp1.pacifier.net (Postfix) with SMTP id C9C2A706FF for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005001c4708f$bc15dc40$0200a8c0@susan> From: "Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <072320040053.14041.41006186000CF70F000036D92200745672010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> <1119.24.4.69.40.1090546874.squirrel@24.4.69.40> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:33:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't know, but I am going to find out. My daughter-in-law to be wants me to help make her wedding dress. I am a good costumer and a good thower together at the last minute, but making a quality garment for someone else is another thing, so we will see how it goes. I have learned some good techniques over the years so it should be ok. But any advice? She picked out the new Lord of Rings pattern with the three elf dresses (princess line seams) and we got some nice offwhite brocade to make a mockup with the idea that it could be the actual dress if we run out of time. We have a month. It will be interesting. Luckily I am not planning on making myself something new. Susan in Bellevue _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 05:07:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N96xRM008948 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:06:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N96LYF013872 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:06:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N96JfA006047; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:06:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N96HfA006007 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:06:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 43DE01800ED3 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:06:12 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.34) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 23 Jul 2004 09:04:09 -0000 Received: by ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 12983C610C; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:06:12 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [81.144.218.66] by ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:06:12 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:06:12 +0000 Subject: RE: [h-cost] elizabethan question X-Originating-Ip: 81.144.218.66 X-Originating-Server: ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040723090612.12983C610C@ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- > > However, that sharp waistline angle doesn't read correctly to > > my eye as Elizabethan. It is known that many portraits were > > 'restored' during VIctoria's reign, which often menat that > > (many times richly detailed, formal and symbolic) backgrounds > > were painted out, names/dates altered or added and > > silhouettes changed to a more attractive (Victorian) shape. I seem to have missed the original post - can someone please repost the URL so I can see which portrait we are talking about? Cheers, Danielle -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 05:27:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N9RBRM010195 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:27:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N9QaYF015277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:26:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N9QWfA013239; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:26:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N9QVfA013226 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:26:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDD9028163 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:26:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p433.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.215.179]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B372AD3F0 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:26:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Elizabethan question Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:26:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFB5@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=13 The structure of this overgown is similar to Mary Denton http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=6 http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=20 form fitting loose gown. http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=8 Background is similar to MD portrait. >From the partlet which matches the collar and undersleeves the gold flowers are embroidered. the pearl on her right sleeve does stick up. my monitor shows the pearl on her left sleeve to be slightly up and darkly shadowed on the side near the background. Other place on the figure's silhouette would indict that the background was not painted over after the fact. The left side of her ruff is an example There is a question I have, this portrait is attributed to Gower. Now the person looks similar to his style of painting but the background usually has a landscape. Hans Eworth on the other hand has a dark background with shield. De -----Original Message----- I was thinking the same thing. Another possible indication of this is the sleeve on the right of the picture. The little gold flower/star thjings in the pattern of the under-sleeve (and partlet and collar lining etc) have what looks liek a pearl hanging from the middle - on the opposite sleeve, you can see that they are raised in the centre and the pearl sticks out (is not flat against the fabric) from the one that falls at the very edge of the sleeve where it disappears around the back of the arm. it sticks out against the beackground colour. There is a place on the right hand sleeve (sitter's left) where this should also happen - but instead, a relatively flat edge between the sleeve and background is seen, possibly form the background beign repainted. And the nipped-in waist definately looks Victorian. It's possible the gown is a loose one, the restorer/alterer didn't understand the garment or wanted to present a more (to the Victorian eye) attractive silhouette and overpainted the black fabric witht he background colour to dfine the waist. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 05:28:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N9SaRM010201 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:28:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N9S8YF015333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:28:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N9S7fA013828; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:28:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N9S0fA013789 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:28:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45EF27E69 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:28:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p433.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.215.179]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 866E6D3F0 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:27:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] elizabethan questionURL Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:28:03 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <200407221745.i6MHjfTj081216@sabre.goldsword.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ok, I'm going to leave my normal italian (not to mention fascination with earlier period Symbolic Garb) and ask about this portrait http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/gower_MaryDenton48.jpg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 05:38:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6N9cMRM010264 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:38:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N9bmYF015720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:37:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N9bkfA017147; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:37:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6N9bjfA017137 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 03:37:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760F727E80 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:37:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p433.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.215.179]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 81D50D3F0 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:37:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 04:37:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <005001c4708f$bc15dc40$0200a8c0@susan> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- She picked out the new Lord of Rings pattern with the three elf dresses (princess line seams) (snip) Luckily I am not planning on making myself something new. Susan in Bellevue ~~~~~~~~~~~ Good Luck on the dress. Note:Simplicity LotR women's pattern, the black with red dress is there version of Arwen's dress in Return of the King,which I am assuming is the one she wants you to sew. The green with high collar and the over bodice dress are versions of Eowen's dresses who is not an elf but a human of Rohan. :) De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 07:31:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NBVdRM010754 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:31:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NBUrYF020553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:30:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NBUkfA058685; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:30:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NBUifB058667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:30:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6NBSAtY026883 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:28:11 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4100F6DA.4000009@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:30:34 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Off topic: LoTR/Sewing References: <072320040053.14041.41006186000CF70F000036D92200745672010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> <1119.24.4.69.40.1090546874.squirrel@24.4.69.40> <005001c4708f$bc15dc40$0200a8c0@susan> In-Reply-To: <005001c4708f$bc15dc40$0200a8c0@susan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Susan wrote: > She picked out the new Lord of Rings pattern For more interesting, fiddly details than you'd ever want, be sure to go to: http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/ -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 08:15:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NCFVRM011014 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:15:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NCElYF022357 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:14:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NCEjfA074727; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:14:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.206]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NCEgfA074706 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:14:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from athurman@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id m68so59rne for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.164.69 with SMTP id m69mr275061rne; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 05:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7d21ac1904072305147c42bb7b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:14:41 -0400 From: "A. Thurman" To: Historic Costume List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] re: sewing for spouses/family X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I did a long rant in my Livejournal some time ago about why I don't costume for money, but it might also apply to why I don't costume for very many people at all, regardless of compensation: http://www.livejournal.com/users/anotheranon/248255.html Having said this, my husband will wear just about anything I put him in - maybe not out of the house, but he will wear it ;) I've not had the chance to make the grand "Henry VIII"-period gear for him, though I've planned it for years, but I imagine I'll have to make some concessions to comfort - he gets hot easily and is not at all keen on the idea of wool hose and robe. Allison T. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 08:23:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NCNKRM011059 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:23:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NCGcYF022448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:16:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NCGafA075459; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:16:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NCGXfA075400 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:16:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA31000 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:21:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:21:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] princess seams/sideless + oddity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, otsisto wrote: > Is it just me or does Fortuna have a face on the back of her head or > is it hair that looks like a face? (Her hat makes me think she was the > original cone head. :) Yes, Fortune is two-faced. Though I'm sure somewhere there's someone who will use this as documentation for faces-on-the-backs-of-heads. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 08:51:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NCp7RM011172 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:51:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NCoOYF023897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:50:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NCoLfA088129; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:50:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NCoJfB088109 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:50:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6NClntY027577 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:47:49 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <41010986.10102@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:50:14 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] princess seams/sideless + oddity References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: > Yes, Fortune is two-faced. Though I'm sure somewhere there's someone who > will use this as documentation for faces-on-the-backs-of-heads. I've been having a discussion with someone who found my website -- his friends have convinced him that a blue poet's shirt, poofy pants, and a belt over the shirt is the right thing for a wealthy merchant to wear circa 1390. He doesn't want to do any research. I don't know why he bothered asking me if it was a good thing to wear, if he's not going to even ask his friends for their sources (which I suggested in my most encouraging, non-snarky manner.) ARGH. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 09:04:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ND4QRM011249 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:04:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ND3iYF024591 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:03:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ND3ffA093542; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:03:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ND3dfA093522 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:03:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from dialup-4.154.17.69.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.154.17.69]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bnzi6-0003jg-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:03:39 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:02:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] princess seams/sideless + oddity From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I can go one better. I just saw a medieval picture in Spain of, I believe, of pregnant Mary and the mother of John the Baptist. The women are standing and, to represent their pregnancy, the babies are painted on the outside of their gowns. Now THAT's documentation! But the question is: Should I embroider the baby, or applique it?....(ducking and running for cover) Grace/Jessamyn > From: Robin Netherton > Yes, Fortune is two-faced. Though I'm sure somewhere there's someone who > will use this as documentation for faces-on-the-backs-of-heads. > > --Robin > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 09:18:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NDIrRM011287 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:18:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NDH2YF025286 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:17:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NDH0fA098823; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:17:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NDGvfB098802 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:16:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6NDEUtY027995 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:14:30 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:14:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <41010FC7.1010501@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:16:55 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crazy documentation References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Grace Morris wrote: > But the question is: Should I embroider the baby, or applique > it?....(ducking and running for cover) Wow. Um, you should do it in stumpwork so that you can have some 3D effect. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 09:29:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NDT2RM011312 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:29:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NDSPYF026711 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:28:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NDSNfA003665; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:28:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m2.nyc.untd.com (m2.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.65]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6NDSIfA003558 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:28:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamstrix@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: VlQqLyNLY6dl7D8HNF4VCkpxszUmUT0FW6Pg8l0ViTvXbswDOILVBg== Received: (from seamstrix@juno.com) by m2.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J28RZHM4; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:27:13 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:27:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) Message-ID: <20040723.072739.-540689.0.Seamstrix@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-10,12-22 From: seamstrix@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I liked the Petherbridge version quite a bit myself. He's certainly closer to the correct age and look than Carmichael, but Carmichael was my formative influence so I will always have a soft spot for him. I had heard the story about the man who 'was' Wimsey, subliminal influences are amazing things aren't they? In Oxford, down a little side street, they have a blue plaque indicating the house where Sayers lived while she wrote a number of the Lord Peter novels. I found it by accident and was totally thrilled! On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:16:11 +0100 "Kate M Bunting" writes: > I like Wimsey too (and Margery Allingham's Albert Campion). > Personally, > I preferred Edward Petherbridge's version of him to Ian > Carmichael's. > Anyone read Dorothy Sayers' collected letters? She once met a man > who she said was exactly her idea of what Peter Wimsey looked like. We > now know from the letters that she had in fact seen him years before, > but had not consciously remembered doing so. > > Kate Bunting > Library, University of Derby ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 09:49:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NDnsRM011409 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:49:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NDnIYF027844 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:49:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NDnEfA012463; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:49:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6NDnCfA012412 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:49:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-19553); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:49:08 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:49:08 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040723064757.0118c0d8@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:48:58 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 07:07 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Oh, you read Wimsey. How wonderful!!! I don't think I have met a person >who has even heard of him, let alone read him, for going onto 20 years. > >And yes, that scene totally applies here. I think Bjarne would always >know and it would always bother him. > >Bettina I love Peter Wimsey stories! Now you have made me want to pull out all the books and read them again. Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 09:52:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NDqIRM011431 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:52:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NDoYYF027990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:50:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NDoXfA013132; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:50:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6NDoUfA013112 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:50:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-16757); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:50:30 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:50:30 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040723064958.011a9bc8@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 06:50:20 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question In-Reply-To: <410055D5.3070206@thibault.org> References: <003601c4701d$6abeace0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <40FFFC2F.3050003@thibault.org> <003601c4701d$6abeace0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 08:03 PM 7/22/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: >>The very first bobbin lace printed book was printed in 1557. Le Pompe. It >>was an invention that some say came from Italy. So you could give her that >>lace edged handkerchief. She will love you for it! > >Thanks, Bjarne, and Danielle! That's good info. > >Second part of the question: the friend plays a noble man. Would a *man* >have had a lace edged handkerchief? (Sorry -- I should have asked that >with the first part!) > >-- >Cynthia Virtue and/or Yes. Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 10:32:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NEWuRM011644 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:32:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NEWDYF001511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:32:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NEW8fA047343; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:32:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NEW3fA047281 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:32:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from 209-165-50-106.jps.net ([209.165.50.106]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bo15d-00045J-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:32:01 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:12:08 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: languages (WAS: veggie vs. fruit) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 7:24 PM -0500 7/20/04, Robin Netherton wrote: >On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > >> Yes you are right, but there also are problems about it. All my >> library is mostly english and costume related i know all the technical >> terms and words, but how about danish? I dont know 1/2 of it what it >> is called in danish, and that is so bothering for me. Cartridge >> pleating for instance, i have not a clue what that is called in >> danish. > >It might be that there is no term. A friend of mine who is bilingual >English-Danish and also a costume scholar (her clothing history degree is >from Copenhagen) has told me that she runs into this problem working with >Danish costume researchers. Sometimes she will want to ask a technical >question and realize there is no equivalent term in Danish for the sewing >technique or fabric characteristic she is trying to discuss. I was delighted to discover that in my pocket English/Danish dictionary, there is no Danish word for "frump." One has to refer to such a creature as a 'badly dressed woman' instead. Just doesn't have the same ring to it. :-P -- _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 10:33:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NEXkRM011660 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:33:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NEWqYF001570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:32:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NEWqfA047836; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:32:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NEW5fA047301 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:32:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from 209-165-50-106.jps.net ([209.165.50.106]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bo15g-00045J-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:32:04 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200407201742.i6KHghSu058871@sabre.goldsword.com> References: <200407201742.i6KHghSu058871@sabre.goldsword.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:38:50 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Subject: Re: [h-cost] veggie vs. fruit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 1:42 PM -0400 7/20/04, Susan Farmer wrote: > > All grains are not grasses, are they? ISTR something "different" about >> wild rice, say, as opposed to regular rices. And what about buckwheat, >> which I don't think is a wheat at all? > >Yep. 70% of the world's food comes from the family Poaceae (the grasses). >All grains are grasses -- at least I'm pretty sure. I can't think >of anything else that has that type of fruit. True rice is Oryza sativa, >wheat Tricitum aestivum, barley Hordeum vulgare, oats Avena sativa, >sorghum Sorghum bicolor, millet Pennisetum americanum, corn Zea Mays, and >sugarcane Saccharum officinale. There are a bunch of things called >buckwheat in the genus Eriogonum (check out http://plants.usda.gov -- >you can search on common name or scientific name -- cool stuff!) and >Wild Rice turns up in the genus Ziziana. .... except that buckwheat actually _is_ in a different (non-grass) family. As Heather mentioned, there are two overlapping, but not identical, definitions of "grain" -- it can be "the dry fruit of a member of the grass family" (the botanical definition) or it can be "a small dry fruit or seed with a high starch content" (the culinary definition). For that matter, the South American staple "grains," quinoa and amaranth, are in the same general group of families as buckwheat. Together with beets, carnations, purslane, pokeweed, spinach, chard and (surprisingly) cactus, they're in a rather odd side-branch of the flowering plants (the Caryophillidae), mostly distinguished by their chemistry and their peculiar ring-shaped embryos. BTW -- just to drag this thread kicking and screaming back toward costuming -- while many of the Caryophillidae have what at first seems to be a splendidly intense purplish-red dye (pokeweed berries were even used to make ink), it's notably unsuccessful as a cloth dye, because it tends to fade quickly in sunlight. These distinctive reddish pigments, the betacyanins, are only found in the Caryophillidae and are chemically completely unrelated to the red and blue pigments in most other flowering plants. -- _________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California _________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 11:29:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NFTHRM011989 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:29:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFRPYF007117 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:27:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFRLfA087582; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:27:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFRHfA087529 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:27:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6NFxm5c091130 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:59:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6NFxmg6091129 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:59:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407231559.i6NFxmg6091129@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! In-Reply-To: <200407222316.43535.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > [actually, I wrote:] > > > > Frankly, I can't see enough of the relevant areas of "Felicite's" gown > > > around that red cloak wrapped around her to see whether there's anything > > > like a princess seam or not. > > > > The "seam" starts about where the cloak meets her neckline and continues > > to where the "seam" hits the juncture of sleeve and wrist. You can see > > the line on the other sidestarting about the big nuckle on her hand and > > disappearing into the cloak. > > Yes, I see it now. However, what I see could just as easily be a fold in the > material as a seam. *giggle* That was sort of the point of that image -- was that a seam or the "edge" of a same-colored, symbolic, sideless surcoat! :-) Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 11:29:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NFTuRM011996 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:29:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFSTYF007246 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:28:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFSSfA088430; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:28:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFSNfA088379 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:28:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bo1yB-00029A-00; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:28:23 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Leather suppliers in LA Textile district? Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:28:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c470c9$b3930270$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6NFSNfA088379 Cc: khanson@kc.rr.com X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO We went and we can confirm everything you say! Thanks for the idea! Sg >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of khanson >Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 9:45 AM >To: Historical Costume >Subject: RE: [h-cost] Leather suppliers in LA Textile district? > >This isn't in the garment district, but it's about an hour away from there. >WELL worth the trip -- it's a huge warehouse filled floor to ceiling with >hides of every color and type. Even though I've been there several times, it >always amazes me. They are also up in Napa, not far from San Francisco. >Great quality, nice people, and they know their leather. > > >The Hide and Leather House >San Dimas, CA >870 W. Cienega Avenue #7 >San Dimas, CA 91773 >U.S. Order Toll Free: 866-LA-SKINS Fax: 909-592-3332 >International Orders: 909-592-3311 > >> >> We will be going shopping in the fashion district this upcoming week. >> Anyone recommend a supplier for leather hides ? >> > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 11:33:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NFXRRM012020 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:33:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFWmYF007672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:32:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFWkfA091546; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:32:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com (imo-d22.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFWffA091431 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:32:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.d6.feccc27 (3980) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:32:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:32:27 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/23/04 3:26:57 AM Central Daylight Time, scourney@nwlink.com writes: She picked out the new Lord of Rings pattern with the three elf dresses (princess line seams) and we got some nice offwhite brocade to make a mockup with the idea that it could be the actual dress if we run out of time. We have a month. It will be interesting. My advice would be to make a muslin first. It's easy and quick to throw together - shouldn't take more than a couple of hours, really - and it will give you the best idea of how the pattern goes together, what to watch out for when you're cutting and sewing the real dress, and what alterations or sizing modifications need to be made. Then you can just pick apart the basting in the muslin and use it for the pattern to make the real deal. It is also useful in that your daughter in law can get a good idea of whether she's happy with the pattern she's chosen or not, before either of you has too much time or money invested. What looks great on a pattern envelope photo, and what looks good on a real-life person, are often two very different things. I had a buyer who was determined to have a gown made from the old LOTR pattern (the one with the baby-blue elf type dress in the center front, then the gray Arwen riding costume in the background). I was rather skeptical, because the customer has a very curvaceous figure and those a-line gowns tend to look best on very thin women. When we got the muslin done, she could see how the gown was going to be extremely unflattering on her hourglass figure, and we went with a separate bodice and skirt combination with similar styling instead. This way, if she likes it, great, and you can get busy with the brocade without having done anything that can't be fixed or changed. Half the battle in good sewing is for the cutting to be exactly right, IMO. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 11:58:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NFwYRM012168 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:58:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFw3YF010270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:58:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFvxfA010559; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:58:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFvtfA010494 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:57:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scourney@nwlink.com) Received: from susan (ip157.usw235.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [207.202.235.157]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E875820A4 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <007b01c470ce$c67189c0$0200a8c0@susan> From: "Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:04:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: suggests: >> In a message dated 7/23/04 3:26:57 AM Central Daylight Time, >> scourney@nwlink.com writes: >> She picked out the new Lord of Rings pattern with the three elf dresses >> (princess line seams) and we got some nice offwhite brocade to make a mockup >> with the idea that it could be the actual dress if we run out of time. >> > My advice would be to make a muslin first. Yes, that was the plan. To make a test dress out of cheap fabric to see if she really likes it. However we ended up with this nice brocade instead. I got some cheap cotton to do a lining and was planning to make that the muslin, but I suppose it will make more sense to use some old fabric I don't want any more to make one. Esp cause she is not exactly svelte and I don't know how this will look on her. Duh, yes I know they aren't all elf dresses. I just, uhmm, had a monentarly lapse of memory. Yah that's it. Susan in Bellevue _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 12:01:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NG12RM012193 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:01:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFxtYF010559 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:59:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFxsfA012084; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:59:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFxofA012059 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:59:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6NGWM5c091514 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:32:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6NGWMt0091513 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:32:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407231632.i6NGWMt0091513@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] elizabethan question In-Reply-To: <20040723090612.12983C610C@ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > ----- Original Message ----- > > > However, that sharp waistline angle doesn't read correctly to > > > my eye as Elizabethan. It is known that many portraits were > > > 'restored' during VIctoria's reign, which often menat that > > > (many times richly detailed, formal and symbolic) backgrounds > > > were painted out, names/dates altered or added and > > > silhouettes changed to a more attractive (Victorian) shape. > > > > I seem to have missed the original post - can someone please repost the URL so I can see which portrait we are talking about? http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/gower_MaryDenton48.jpg Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 12:35:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NGZuRM012496 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:35:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NGZ0YF013946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:35:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NGYtfA039283; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:34:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NGYqfA039233 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:34:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6540B25BA9 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:34:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p138.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.140]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 58C5DD4AC for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:34:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:34:53 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <41010986.10102@thibault.org> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] poet shirt and docs was: princess seams/sideless + oddity X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- I've been having a discussion with someone who found my website -- his friends have convinced him that a blue poet's shirt, poofy pants, and a belt over the shirt is the right thing for a wealthy merchant to wear circa 1390. He doesn't want to do any research. I don't know why he bothered asking me if it was a good thing to wear, if he's not going to even ask his friends for their sources (which I suggested in my most encouraging, non-snarky manner.) ARGH. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don't you just love the miracle belt? Able to keep pants on while holding down the shirt. It's amazing isn't it? Oh, didn't you know there were Period pirate poets in period? Like the famous Blues Clueless (as opposed to Bluebeard) or the physician from the ship Romantics, Doc Umentless Whimsy. :P (sarcasm, don't leave home without it) De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:42:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NHgXRM013063 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:42:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHeNYF020623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:40:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHeFfA090110; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:40:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHe7fA090011 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:40:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040723174005.HKNM1551.out004.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:40:05 -0500 Message-ID: <005301c470dc$19489640$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:40:08 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:40:05 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you for dissolving my misinformation :) B ----- Original Message ----- From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 1:50 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] 14th-16 century entertainers > Ahh...addendum to previous message about having to find my references re > females in the Commedia...here's at least one mentioned by name: > > Andreini, Isabella Canali > > (´´zäbl´lä ändr´n) (KEY) , 1562-1604, Italian actress. Beautiful, elegant, > and well-educated, she was one of the most famous performers of her time. > She joined the Gelosi troupe, becoming a leading player, and married the > troupe's manager, Francesco Andreini, in 1578. She wrote the pastoral > Mirtilla (1588); her collected letters appeared in 1607. Andreini was lauded > by the poets Tasso and Marini. 1 > See R. Gilder, Enter the Actress (1931). > > Talia > > > > > > > I was under the impression that women were not allowed to be in theatre. > > Young feminine looking men were usually cast as female roles. > > > > B > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:46:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NHk7RM013074 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:46:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHjXYF021191 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:45:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHjVfA094261; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:45:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts8.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.166]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHjPfA094147 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:45:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.5.222]) by simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040723174430.XTPL28685.simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:44:30 -0400 Message-ID: <006b01c470dc$8a2f7ae0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:43:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Santa Cruz X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks to everyone who sent hotel ideas, she found herself a place to stay. I think the city is pretty busy the weekend she's there, it took quite a bit of searching. once again, thanks! Sheridan *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely. Ogden Nash _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:46:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NHkDRM013078 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:46:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHhoYF020966 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:43:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHhnfA092988; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:43:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts8.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.166]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHhjfA092928 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:43:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.5.222]) by simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040723174253.XSWV28685.simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:42:53 -0400 Message-ID: <006701c470dc$4f3054a0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFB4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:40:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I lamented: > > > Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of > > trouble when sewing for your spouse/family/friends? > > Poor you! > > I must be lucky. My S.O. makes his own garb. I did make him a robe > based on one of the Herjolfsness finds for christmas and he loves that. > > I frequently sew for friends whio don't sew and they seem delighted with > what I make them. > > Perhaps there's a communication problem between the two of you. Perhaps > you need to go into great detail over what he wants to be sure you're > both getting the same mental picture from his description before you > start to cut or sew - and do regular updates while it's in progress? > Find or draw pictures of the garments so you're both sure of the details > etc. > > If that doesn't work, he may have to get his garb elsewhere. Buy it, > work a trade for it with another costumer... something, anything, to > save both your tempers > > Good Luck! > > Teddy Thanks! Don't get me wrong, he usually is very happy with the things I make him. Communication is definitely the problem, we are trying to make an item without being able to speak the same 'language'. He is an artist and is trained in design, he also makes armour. I have been sewing for years. We both may have the same image in our minds, but our terminology is incompatible at times. When it comes to his garb, we have no trouble, I know his tastes, and he knows I will not make him look like a dork. :-) It's when I need to sew him something for his fighting kit (or he is making me armor, this definitely goes both ways) that we usually come to loggerheads. We just don't have the right terminology to describe what we want to each other. We're just never really quite sure we are getting accross the right image, get frustrated with ourselves and each other. We appreciate the work the other does, just don't completely understand the process to get it made. What ends up happening is we procrastinate on the project until it absolutely *has* to get done, which does nothing for our tempers either. :-) But after all of that grumbling, whining and complaining, I got his new gambeson done, and *both* of us were very happy with the result. Now we just have to remember what we did for the next time I have to make him another one. :-) Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:47:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NHlYRM013085 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:47:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHknYF021298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:46:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHklfA095185; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:46:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHkgfA095132 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:46:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040723174641.TACM27801.out008.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:46:41 -0500 Message-ID: <009a01c470dd$05638cb0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <7d.53ada72a.2e31ebeb@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:46:44 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:46:41 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Great idea! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends > In a message dated 7/22/04 2:17:41 PM Central Daylight Time, > shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca writes: > Is it just me, or do the rest of you have this kind of trouble when sewing > for your spouse/family/friends? > > Sheridan > (Slaving away over a hot sewing machine...) > > > I have the perfect solution for you, which I have tried and found successful > myself in the past. > > Teach him to sew. > > Either he will discover that he's good at it and the burden will be off you, > or he will discover that it's not nearly as easy as it looks and be more > accepting of the work you do for him. > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:48:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NHm0RM013094 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:48:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHlPYF021352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:47:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHlPfA095643; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:47:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHlDfA095477 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:47:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040723174712.JAFJ3910.out005.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:47:12 -0500 Message-ID: <00a201c470dd$176efed0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040722.214335.1544.1.Cley@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:47:14 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:47:11 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, please. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia J Ley" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress > I have a friend who got his SCA Laurel for Commedia and another who plays > a female part in his troupe. Would you like their addies? > > Arlys > > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:48:03 EDT FyneHats2@aol.com writes: > > Dear Brandy, > > > > I believe what you are looking for is Commedia del'arte troupes who > > originated in Italy but roamed around Europe. The main characters > > were: Harlequin, > > Colombina, El Capitano, El Dottore, Pantalone, Isabella, The Lover > > (going under > > various names), Scapino & Punchinello among many others. Try > > googling for > > commedia del' arte and see if that will help you. > > > > > > Donna Scarfe > > Fyne Hats By Felicity > > Period Headgear for Past Ages > > www.fynehatsbyfelicity.com > > > > > > > From: "Brandy Deming" > > > Subject: [h-cost] Medieval Theatre Dress > > > > > > AAAHHH!!! > > > > > > I have been trying to do some research on entertainer's costumes > > in the > > > 14th-16th Century and cannot seem to find anything but jesters. I > > recall my > > > costuming professor saying something about traveling actors having > > set characters > > > and costumes to go with said characters. I cannot remember the > > title of these > > > troops and am just going in Google Circles. Please help! > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 13:50:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NHoWRM013104 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:50:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHnsYF021679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:49:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHnrfA097710; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:49:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out008.verizon.net (out008pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.108]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NHnofA097668 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:49:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out008.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040723174949.TBGT27801.out008.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:49:49 -0500 Message-ID: <00b801c470dd$755080f0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFB6@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:49:52 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out008.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:49:49 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO We got a set of mirrored closet doors at a thrift shop for about $15, they are about 6 feet tall by 3ft and there is 4 of them. Now I can finally see the back of what I am wearing :) cheaper then a full size mirror at K-mart B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teddy" To: Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 1:08 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends > > > Actually, I think I get more frustrated and unhappy with teh > > things I make for myself. Hubby I can say "stand here, move > > here, no, wait....OK, how does that feel?" However, when > > sewing for myself, I'm saying to hubby "pin it there...no > > there...just a minute [look over shoulder in mirror to see > > back, thus distorting everything]...I think that will work." > > Fitting is the worst part of sewing for me, and the part that > > really makes it look *good*. Errrrggggh. > > Something that *might* help a little; > > Get a big free-standing mirror. That way you can position it so that it > reflects the mirror that your back is to and you can see the back > without twisting 'round and distorting the fit. > > Teddy > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 14:08:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NI8ARM013187 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:08:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFAvYF005315 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:10:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFAsfA075223; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:10:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-f3.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.47.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NFAofA075127 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:10:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:10:43 -0700 Received: from 207.96.224.159 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:10:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [207.96.224.159] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sewing for spouses/family/friends Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:10:43 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jul 2004 15:10:43.0904 (UTC) FILETIME=[39850C00:01C470C7] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My bf is a darling. He likes what I do more than I like it myself! He stands still when I take measurements, and always accuses me of doing too much... I think his mother drilled into him that if he wanted nice things, he'd better be nice to the seamstress :-) _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of powerful junk e-mail filters built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen Technology. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 15:34:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NJYuRM013802 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:34:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NJYKYF002316 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:34:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NJYGfA076150; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:34:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NJYBfA076100 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:34:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net ([192.168.167.45]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bo5o3-0004fs-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:34:11 -0400 Message-ID: <20302725.1090611250298.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:34:10 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: poet shirt and docs X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cynthia wrote: >I've been having a discussion with someone who found my website -- his >friends have convinced him that a blue poet's shirt, poofy pants, and a >belt over the shirt is the right thing for a wealthy merchant to wear >circa 1390. He doesn't want to do any research. I don't know why he >bothered asking me if it was a good thing to wear, if he's not going to >even ask his friends for their sources (which I suggested in my most >encouraging, non-snarky manner.) > >ARGH. Because (and I have just gotten this through my own head recently) he's not _really_ asking whether it's a good thing to wear, he's asking for reassurance from you that he won't look like a dork and that his friends (and/or pretty girls) won't laugh at him. I have just recently had this pointed out to me because one of the costume experts I know has been being very patient (much more so than I am) with a member of my group who needs reassurance constantly. She seems to have to check every little detail with someone: is this button OK or is it too big? would this color trim have been used with this color outfit? should I put a green tassel or a blue one on this accessory? This lady is clearly (from other evidence) someone who doesn't have enough friends and needs people to talk to, anyway. But it's been frustrating the heck out of me because she won't do her own research ("doesn't have time to read"), nor does she seem to learn from the response to one question and apply the information to future questions. I finally had it pointed out to me that it's reassurance, not information, she's looking for. Of course, realistically you can't _completely_ reassure someone. Dorkiness is in the mind of the beholder, so he may put on the outfit, look at himself in the mirror, and decide he looks too dumb for words. :) As I think we've discussed here before, frequently the question "Would this be a good thing to wear?" needs to be responded to with the question "Good in what sense?" ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 15:52:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NJqwRM013918 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:52:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NJoZYF004034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:50:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NJoWfA088669; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:50:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NJoRfB088610 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:50:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6NJlxtY000632 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:47:59 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <41016C01.4020006@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:50:25 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: poet shirt and docs References: <20302725.1090611250298.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <20302725.1090611250298.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > As I think we've discussed here before, frequently the question "Would this be a good thing to wear?" needs to be responded to with the question "Good in what sense?" Yeah, that's what I asked, right off the bat. When he said it was for SCA stuff, I told him it was fine for SCA, but it wasn't an upper class outfit from 1390; go look here and there if you care but otherwise it's fine. Then he started not listening. At length. Ah, well. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Abstract words such as glory, honor, courage, or hallow were obscene. -- Ernest Hemingway Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 17:15:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NLFKRM014257 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:15:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NLEWYF011656 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:14:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NLEMfA052722; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:14:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web40811.mail.yahoo.com (web40811.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.188]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6NLEKfA052641 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:14:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cyncorley@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040723211414.47618.qmail@web40811.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.229.159.62] by web40811.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:14:14 PDT Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:14:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Cynthia Corley To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] mystery garments X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi! I have an elderly neighbor who dropped by to ask me if I knew what these objects are that she has. She thought I might know since I do costuming but i'm stumped--I told her I would ask you clever people! They are (she thinks) early 20th century,they are yellowed cotton thread, tatted or crocheted.One is more decorative than the other, but both are not very fancy. We tried them on my 9 year-old daughter because she thought they might be really short little bolero-type vests for girls, but they seem sized for a small woman-too big through the armscye, and overlapping at the center-front on my daughter(or maybe it's supposed to be the center-back?). One has shoulder straps, the other is wider over the shoulder, and they made me wonder if they could be some early (1920s?)form of bra? They have some stretch to them because of the way they were crocheted so I could imagine them giving minimal support. They don't have any obvious darts or anything to give form to the breast, so they would flatten it. There are no closures on them. Does anyone have a guess? My neighbor also wondered if there was a place in the LA/Southern California area that might want to buy/resell some vintage high-button shoes she has in her collection. Thanks for your help! Cynthia ===== Art is not a mirror held up to reality but a hammer with which to shape it. Bertolt Brecht __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 17:25:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NLP3RM014284 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:25:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NLMhYF012438 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:22:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NLMefA058801; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:22:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NLMLfA058623 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:22:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net ([192.168.167.44]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bo7Uj-0007HC-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:22:21 -0400 Message-ID: <25612758.1090617740918.JavaMail.root@wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:22:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] [2] poet shirt and docs X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cynthia wrote: >> As I think we've discussed here before, frequently the question >>"Would this be a good thing to wear?" needs to be responded to with >>the question "Good in what sense?" > >Yeah, that's what I asked, right off the bat. When he said it was for >SCA stuff, I told him it was fine for SCA, but it wasn't an upper class >outfit from 1390; go look here and there if you care but otherwise it's >fine. Then he started not listening. At length. Cynthia, if you're venting your frustration here, I'm right with you! So forgive me in that case if I try to prolong the discussion further. However, I was thinking more along the lines of: "Good in the sense that you can wear it and it will look okay and fit in with the event you're wearing it to?" To which such a person might say yes, in which case you can simply say "Yeah, it's fine" (if appropriate). If they say no, _then_ you can ask, "Good in the sense that it's historically exactly what a real upper-class person was wearing in 1390, right down to the materials and threads?" To which the answer might be yes (surprise!), no, or "someplace in between," in which case you can ask more questions to narrow it down further. But you don't even _ask_ this second question unless you get a clear "no" to the first. (Mind you, I haven't had lots of occasions to try this particular dialog myself, so I can't tell you yet how well it would actually work...) What I'd be basically trying to get them to answer would be, "Where are you on the spectrum between off-the-shelf Halloween costume and handstitched-with-linen-thread accuracy?" But if you phrase it that way (or if you use the word "accurate" or "historical" in the first question), then people may give you answers that don't reflect precisely what they really want. For one thing, people may not know that there _is_ such a thing as handstitched-with-linen-thread accuracy, so they may be using the word "accurate" to mean "doesn't look screamingly inappropriate at a hundred feet" -- which is probably not what _you_ think of as "accurate." For another thing, people in general do very often have _some_ feeling that they want to be historically accurate, or -- even more commonly -- that historical accuracy is what they are _supposed_ to want. After all, there are movies out there advertising how (supposedly) "accurate" they are, so the producers at least must consider this as something popular enough to advertise. So your questioners may agree that they want to be accurate, even if they really don't give a hoot, because they think they _should_ want it, or for that matter, because they think it's what _you_ want them to say, regardless of whether that's really what they're looking for. I'd be interested in hearing whether others who have web pages up and get these sorts of questions think this is a common phenomenon, and if so, how they handle it. ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 17:25:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NLPMRM014287 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:25:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NLOoYF012735 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:24:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NLOlfA060498; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:24:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NLOifA060313 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:24:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from triade@kabelfoon.nl) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0997.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.230]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 713ED31915A for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:24:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4101825F.3030307@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:25:51 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Pictures of weddingdress I made X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I finally have pictures of a weddingdress I've made for a friend. It was ment to be a dress with a "Castle feeling". Had so much trouble designing the sleeves. She wanted a low neckline, heavy sleeves and to be able to move her arms freely. Her schoulderstraps are attached to her bra straps with snaps to keep them on. I think the sleeves could heve been better but she was sooooo happy with the dress :-) :-) http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Wedding_costumes/Trouwjurk2004/TS2004.html Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 18:40:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NMeIRM014681 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:40:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NMdBYF023195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:39:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NMd7fA013897; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:39:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NMd2fB013826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:39:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6NMaXtY001346 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:36:33 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <41019382.8060606@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:38:58 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] [2] poet shirt and docs References: <25612758.1090617740918.JavaMail.root@wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <25612758.1090617740918.JavaMail.root@wamui06.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I'd be interested in hearing whether others who have web pages up and get these sorts of questions think this is a common phenomenon, and if so, how they handle it. I don't get this sort very often, actually. Usually the folks that write are interested in at least looking at a book or similar. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 19:44:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6NNihRM015197 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:44:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NNgSYF001214 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:42:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NNgQfA055158; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:42:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com (imo-m24.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6NNgMfA055061 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:42:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1de.257f518b (2612) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:42:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1de.257f518b.2e32fc54@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:42:12 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pictures of weddingdress I made To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO She looks absolutely stunning, and the dress is BEAUTIFUL. You should be very proud of that! -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 20:04:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O041RM015400 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:04:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O03VYF002764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:03:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O03SfA066760; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:03:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51109.mail.yahoo.com (web51109.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.130]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6O03PfA066687 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:03:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040724000319.25388.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.243.34] by web51109.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:03:19 PDT Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 17:03:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Merideth Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: poet shirt and docs To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20302725.1090611250298.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Chris Laning wrote: Cynthia wrote: >I've been having a discussion with someone who found my website -- his >friends have convinced him that a blue poet's shirt, poofy pants, and a >belt over the shirt is the right thing for a wealthy merchant to wear >circa 1390. He doesn't want to do any research. Even the badly researched and costumed movies dress wealthy merchants better than that! Does he never watch any type of period movies? They are easy, you don't have to read. Maybe suggest that he might watch a movie if he too lazy to do any research AND listen to you when you answer the question HE asked! Anne Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 22:03:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O23CRM016072 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:03:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O21MYF011700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:01:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O21HfA071137; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:01:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f38.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O217fA071053 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:01:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 19:01:01 -0700 Received: from 66.25.125.118 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:01:01 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.125.118] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Pictures of weddingdress I made Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:01:01 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2004 02:01:01.0753 (UTC) FILETIME=[11F85290:01C47122] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO great job, Wilhelmina >From: Deredere Galbraith >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: Historical Costume >Subject: [h-cost] Pictures of weddingdress I made >Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:25:51 +0200 > >I finally have pictures of a weddingdress I've made for a friend. >It was ment to be a dress with a "Castle feeling". >Had so much trouble designing the sleeves. >She wanted a low neckline, heavy sleeves and to be able to move her arms >freely. >Her schoulderstraps are attached to her bra straps with snaps to keep them >on. >I think the sleeves could heve been better but she was sooooo happy with >the dress :-) :-) >http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Wedding_costumes/Trouwjurk2004/TS2004.html > >Greetings, > Deredere > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 22:17:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O2H7RM016099 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:17:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O2GVYF012860 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:16:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O2GTfA078946; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:16:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O2GQfB078915 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:16:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6O2HoOg012083 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:17:50 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] King Arthur Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:22:54 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407220228.i6M2SqsO043626@net.indra.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040722205440.021dd3a8@pop.radiks.net> In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040722205440.021dd3a8@pop.radiks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407232222.54130.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 22 July 2004 9:55 pm, Pierre & Sandy Pettinger wrote: > Sandy and I saw King Arthur last night. A bigger mess we haven't seen since > Elizabeth a number of years ago. It shared the same sense of historicity as > that film as well. From Saxons invading to crossbows about 1,000 years > early to disrespect for Christianity, to blatantly incorrect information on > the philosophy and fate of Pelagius to the "uniforms" worn by the "knights" > it consists of one error after another. The logic of the film is also quite > questionable. My feelings exactly! Thanks for summarizing it so well. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 22:28:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O2SfRM016161 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:28:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O2S9YF013878 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:28:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O2S7fA084907; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:28:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O2S4fB084875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:28:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6O2TSoJ012637 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:29:29 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: poet shirt and docs Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:34:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040724000319.25388.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040724000319.25388.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407232234.33047.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Friday 23 July 2004 8:03 pm, Cheri Merideth wrote: > Chris Laning wrote: > > Cynthia wrote: > >I've been having a discussion with someone who found my website -- his > >friends have convinced him that a blue poet's shirt, poofy pants, and a > >belt over the shirt is the right thing for a wealthy merchant to wear > >circa 1390. He doesn't want to do any research. If he wants to wear a poofy shirt and pants and call himself a late 14th c merchant, he certainly can--but you don't have to help him do so. In addition, it's your right to spend as much of your time as you want trying to convince him he's in error. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 23:20:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O3KCRM016342 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:20:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3IDYF017713 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:18:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3IAfA010544; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:18:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3I8fA010526 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:18:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kerowyn@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.245.74.42.dial1.stlouis1.level3.net ([4.245.74.42] helo=Dan) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BoD30-00069c-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:18:07 -0400 Message-ID: <013801c4712d$93fe4c80$2a4af504@Dan> From: "Genie" To: "Historical Costume" References: <056b01c47044$d62a4d00$6b39a8c0@OpalSun> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece)OT Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:23:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello, from another Wimsey fan,also Campion, and what do you think of the Mrs. Bradley mysteries the BBC did with Diana Rigg in the title roll. Genie Snow fallen on snow, and this evening, the full moon of November Basho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margo Glenn-Lewis" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece)OT > Have you read Thrones, Dominions - the last of the novels left unfinished by > Miss Sayers completed by Jill Paton Walsh? > > Obligatory costume content - Harriet is much concerned with matters of dress > in this book (well, more than usual) and in fact one of the important clues > in the mystery portion is a collar the murdered woman is wearing. > > Margo Glenn-Lewis > "Don't forget your bucket" > Ice Machine in the Desert - Brave Combo > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:07 PM > Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) > > > > Oh, you read Wimsey. How wonderful!!! I don't think I have met a person > who has even heard of him, let alone read him, for going onto 20 years. > > > > And yes, that scene totally applies here. I think Bjarne would always > know and it would always bother him. > > > > Bettina > > > > > > > > From: ruthanne baumgartner > > Subject: Re: [h-cost] replacing a bodice piece. > > To: Historical Costume > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > That's what I would do, Bjarne. Your hand-sewing is so precise and small > that I'm sure you could make the change invisibly, especially if you pressed > the seam allowance under before sewing. I have joined seams from the right > side with an in-and-out stitch (in effect, a running stitch in the seam > > creases) that conceals itself even with stitches as long as 1/8". And > since the bodice is completely lined, you wouldn't have to worry about > strains on the new seam. > > > > One of my favorite books is the mystery "Gaudy Night," by Dorothy L. > Sayers. In it the heroine receives an antique chess set as a gift from the > hero/detective--the chess pieces are from China, pieces of ivory carved with > nested balls. Before buying the set, the hero examines each chess piece very > carefully to make sure they are all original and perfect. Harriet, the > heroine, says she understands why this is important--because if they were > not all original, no matter how beautiful the set was, whenever someone > admired it she would feel compelled to say "Of course, one of the pawns is > modern." > > > > The reason I remember this now, in this context, is that I believe every > time you think of this gorgeous dress, if you do not correct the pattern > repeat that is now bothering you you will say to yourself "Well, it was > beautiful, yes, EXCEPT for that bad pattern repeat." > > > > Since you have enough fabric to replace the piece, I think you're right > that an extra night of sewing will pay off in your own satisfaction and > pride in your work. > > > > Ruth Anne Baumgartner > > scholar gypsy and amateur costumer > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 23:24:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O3OKRM016353 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:24:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3NgYF018260 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:23:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3NefA013495; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:23:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3NYfA013435 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:23:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from alderweb@vaxxine.com) Received: from pc.vaxxine.com (ppp220.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.232.220]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3NIA0009150 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:23:30 -0400 (EDT) X-RCPT-To: Message-Id: <4.3.0.20040723231645.00ab5c80@pop.vaxxine.com> X-Sender: alderweb@vaxxine.com@pop.vaxxine.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:28:27 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: david webb Subject: Eureka! (maybe)Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming question... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings: I wonder if "French Fall" isn't an eighteenth century spelling for "French faille" since so many textiles were used for women's footwear, including prunella, (one of my favorite textile names). I "googled" "French Faille" and came across 1960's shoes being sold at some retro clothing site, as well as bridesmaids dresses and textiles sites, so the phrase is still used, but not much. Sheridan Alder At 10:21 AM 7/21/2004 -0500, you wrote: >I have a question that pops up every so often (not for me, but for a >friend of mine). > >In Virginia, starting in the 1660s and up to the 1770s, prices are given >(much as they were in price regulations for London that I posted recently) >for footwear. One price for common shoes, another price for "French Fall" >shoes and a third price for boots. French Falls refer clearly to >sometihing specific, likely worn by men women and children that are >slightly more complex than regular shoes, but what are they? > >I figured that since this is, in fact, the Internet - I'd ask you >all. Any ideas? > >(Note-the shoemaker at Williamsburg doesn't know what they are - HE's the >guy I'm doing the looking around for :) ). > >Marc > >_________________________________________________________________ >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 23 23:52:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O3qRRM016485 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:52:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3oRYF020572 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:50:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3oPfA026908; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:50:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O3oNfB026875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:50:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6O3pjGu016172 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:51:46 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:56:49 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407231559.i6NFxmg6091129@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407231559.i6NFxmg6091129@sabre.goldsword.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407232356.49652.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=PLING_QUERY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Friday 23 July 2004 11:59 am, Susan Farmer wrote: > > [actually, I wrote:] > > > > > > Frankly, I can't see enough of the relevant areas of "Felicite's" > > > > gown around that red cloak wrapped around her to see whether there's > > > > anything like a princess seam or not. > > > > > > The "seam" starts about where the cloak meets her neckline and > > > continues to where the "seam" hits the juncture of sleeve and wrist. > > > You can see the line on the other sidestarting about the big nuckle on > > > her hand and disappearing into the cloak. > > > > Yes, I see it now. However, what I see could just as easily be a fold in > > the material as a seam. > > *giggle* That was sort of the point of that image -- was that a seam > or the "edge" of a same-colored, symbolic, sideless surcoat! :-) Sure. Though it strikes me as pointless to wear a "symbolic sidelss surcoat" in the *exact same color* as one's gown. If it's symbolic, why make it hard to see? -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 00:05:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O45GRM016524 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:05:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O43NYF021799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:03:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O43LfA033707; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:03:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O43JfA033680 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:03:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20j0.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.96] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BoDkk-0000W4-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:03:18 -0700 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040723153931.021da5c0@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:40:53 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200407230429.i6N4TmfB061775@net.indra.com> References: <200407230429.i6N4TmfB061775@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >In a message dated 7/22/04 10:41:08 PM Central Daylight Time, >costumrs@radiks.net writes: >Sandy and I saw King Arthur last night. A bigger mess we haven't seen since >Elizabeth a number of years ago. > >Yeah, but dang, the knights are good looking. We will acknowledge that point. :) Pierre and Sandy >-Tiffany >Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. >******************************* >Reflections*of*Worth "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 00:08:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O48oRM016530 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:08:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O48DYF022197 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:08:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O48CfA036248; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:08:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6O48AfA036226 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:08:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-14492); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:08:07 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:08:07 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040723210509.01edd8a0@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:08:06 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] mystery garments In-Reply-To: <20040723211414.47618.qmail@web40811.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO To me they sound like yokes for a slip or nightdress. I have several books with lots of patterns (reprints of early 20th century pattern books) in crochet and tatting for such yokes. If you can scan them and post the pictures somewhere, I'd feel more confident of my guess . Joan At 02:14 PM 7/23/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Hi! >I have an elderly neighbor who dropped by to ask me if >I knew what these objects are that she has. She >thought I might know since I do costuming but i'm >stumped--I told her I would ask you clever people! > >They are (she thinks) early 20th century,they are >yellowed cotton thread, tatted or crocheted.One is >more decorative than the other, but both are not very >fancy. > We tried them on my 9 year-old daughter because she >thought they might be really short little bolero-type >vests for girls, but they seem sized for a small >woman-too big through the armscye, and overlapping at >the center-front on my daughter(or maybe it's supposed >to be the center-back?). >One has shoulder straps, the other is wider over the >shoulder, and they made me wonder if they could be >some early (1920s?)form of bra? They have some stretch >to them because of the way they were crocheted >so I could imagine them giving minimal support. They >don't have any obvious darts or anything to give form >to the breast, so they would flatten it. There are no >closures on them. >Does anyone have a guess? >My neighbor also wondered if there was a place in the >LA/Southern California area that might want to >buy/resell some vintage high-button shoes she has in >her collection. >Thanks for your help! >Cynthia _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 00:11:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O4BoRM016563 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:11:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O49tYF022355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:09:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O49tfA037124; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:09:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6O49pfA037105 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:09:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-14669); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:09:51 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:09:50 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040723210907.01edde28@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:09:49 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Pictures of weddingdress I made In-Reply-To: <4101825F.3030307@kabelfoon.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO She looks quite lovely, beautiful dress, beautiful smile. Joan At 11:25 PM 7/23/2004 +0200, you wrote: >I finally have pictures of a weddingdress I've made for a friend. >It was ment to be a dress with a "Castle feeling". >Had so much trouble designing the sleeves. >She wanted a low neckline, heavy sleeves and to be able to move her arms >freely. >Her schoulderstraps are attached to her bra straps with snaps to keep them on. >I think the sleeves could heve been better but she was sooooo happy with >the dress :-) :-) >http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Wedding_costumes/Trouwjurk2004/TS2004.html > >Greetings, > Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 00:21:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O4LmRM016690 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:21:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4L7YF023176 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:21:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4L3fA042856; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:21:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop2a.ripco.com (root@pop2a.ripco.com [209.100.227.25]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4L1fA042817 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:21:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from zski@ripco.com) Received: from ripco.com (tcr48.dynip.ripco.net [209.100.226.48]) by pop2a.ripco.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4Ktba012027 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:20:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <4101E39C.10202@ripco.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:20:44 -0500 From: zski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] [2] poet shirt and docs References: <200407240324.i6O3ODfC013753@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407240324.i6O3ODfC013753@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO From: Chris Laning What I'd be basically trying to get them to answer would be, "Where are you on the spectrum between off-the-shelf Halloween costume and handstitched-with-linen-thread accuracy?" ----------------- I run into this a lot, as I do custom work. I know a fair amount about historical clothing, but I also have a lot of clients who really want something they can wear to a gaming con and leave in the laundry basket for 6 months. (eww) So I ask a lot of questions, starting first with things like "Why do you want this outfit?" "What do you want people to say when they see you in it?" "How often do you plan on wearing it, and where (outdoors, indoors, camping, etc)?" "How are you going to launder and take care of it?" "What do you need to be able to do in it?", etc It's only after all this that we even start on colors and fabrics! These kinds of things help me figure out what they REALLY want, be it something that is generally shaped right, is natural-fiber and can pass the 10-foot test (for someone working an REC fair), or a rayon pseudo-medieval with a zipper up the back and a sideless surcoat (A woman who wants something flow-y to wear to SF conventions that she can hang in the shower to un-wrinkle) And yes, both these commissions are on my desk right now! Wendy Z who should really be in bed by now in Chicago, IL _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 00:25:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O4PCRM016709 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:25:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4OAYF023515 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:24:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4O9fA044449; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:24:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4O6fA044388 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:24:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allison@aristotle.net) Received: from aristotle.net (pcp456740pcs.shklfd01.ar.comcast.net[68.51.39.191]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004072404240001400dgbn9e>; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:24:00 +0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:24:07 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Allison To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <200407240324.i6O3OBfB013728@net.indra.com> Message-Id: <4D93CBB5-DD29-11D8-88D7-000393D446D6@aristotle.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Waaaaay OT: Brave Combo X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Margo - So delighted to find another Brave Combo fan. Now I know what I'll be listening to during tomorrow's sewing session... Allison P. On Friday, July 23, 2004, at 10:24 PM, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: >> Margo Glenn-Lewis >> "Don't forget your bucket" >> Ice Machine in the Desert - Brave Combo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 00:27:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O4R0RM016720 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:27:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4QNYF023690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:26:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4QMfA045614; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:26:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav11.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4QJfA045552 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:26:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 21:26:13 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.23 by bay1-dav11.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 04:26:13 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.23] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407240324.i6O3ODfC013753@net.indra.com> <4101E39C.10202@ripco.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] [2] poet shirt and docs Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:26:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2004 04:26:13.0922 (UTC) FILETIME=[5AD3D020:01C47136] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And then we have those of us who sew for our darling *grumble* 12 year olds *grumble* son Tarquin charming little monster that he is *grumble* who thinks the HEIGHT of costuming is Phantom Wars or The 13th Warrior *swears incoherently* B eBay V.C. Andrews Books!! http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "zski" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 12:20 AM Subject: [h-cost] [2] poet shirt and docs > From: Chris Laning > What I'd be basically trying to get them to answer would be, "Where are > you on the spectrum between off-the-shelf Halloween costume and > handstitched-with-linen-thread accuracy?" > ----------------- > I run into this a lot, as I do custom work. I know a fair amount about > historical clothing, but I also have a lot of clients who really want > something they can wear to a gaming con and leave in the laundry basket > for 6 months. (eww) So I ask a lot of questions, starting first with > things like > "Why do you want this outfit?" > "What do you want people to say when they see you in it?" > "How often do you plan on wearing it, and where (outdoors, indoors, > camping, etc)?" > "How are you going to launder and take care of it?" > "What do you need to be able to do in it?", etc > > It's only after all this that we even start on colors and fabrics! > > These kinds of things help me figure out what they REALLY want, be it > something that is generally shaped right, is natural-fiber and can pass > the 10-foot test (for someone working an REC fair), or a rayon > pseudo-medieval with a zipper up the back and a sideless surcoat (A > woman who wants something flow-y to wear to SF conventions that she can > hang in the shower to un-wrinkle) > And yes, both these commissions are on my desk right now! > > Wendy Z > who should really be in bed by now in > Chicago, IL > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 00:45:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O4j0RM016806 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:45:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4h6YF024803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:43:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4h4fA053766; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:43:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4h1fA053718 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:43:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a246.in-tch.com [66.62.107.46]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6O4guN02155 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:42:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4101E9C5.9090806@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:47:01 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] princess seams/sideless + oddity References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yeah, but it'd be neato to use as a base for a Masque Costume, wouldn't it? A woman could go as the two-faced Fortune. A man, as some variety of the Roman god Janus.... --sue, ever helpful Robin Netherton wrote: > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, otsisto wrote: > > >>Is it just me or does Fortuna have a face on the back of her head or >>is it hair that looks like a face? (Her hat makes me think she was the >>original cone head. :) > > > Yes, Fortune is two-faced. Though I'm sure somewhere there's someone who > will use this as documentation for faces-on-the-backs-of-heads. > > --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 00:47:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O4lkRM016814 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:47:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4k1YF025058 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:46:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4k1fA055293; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:46:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O4jxfA055276 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:45:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a246.in-tch.com [66.62.107.46]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6O4juN02886 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:45:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4101EA79.5010700@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:50:01 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Crazy documentation References: <41010FC7.1010501@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <41010FC7.1010501@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, you are *SO* evil! That should have come with a spew warning! --sue, glad she'd already finished her coke! ;-D Cynthia Virtue wrote: > Grace Morris wrote: > >> But the question is: Should I embroider the baby, or applique >> it?....(ducking and running for cover) > > > Wow. > > Um, you should do it in stumpwork so that you can have some 3D effect. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 01:17:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O5HvRM016915 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:17:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O5GpYF027613 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:16:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O5GjfA070279; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:16:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O5GgfA070242 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:16:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05704 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:21:20 -0500 Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:21:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! In-Reply-To: <200407232356.49652.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > Sure. Though it strikes me as pointless to wear a "symbolic sidelss > surcoat" in the *exact same color* as one's gown. If it's symbolic, > why make it hard to see? It helps to remember that no one was actually *wearing* this, so that point of view never enters into it. The symbolic conversation exists only between artist and viewer, and does not take into account the (hypothetical) concerns of the (nonexistent) wearer of the clothing. By applying the surcote image, the artist was using "code," and it didn't matter if the result made sense from a fashion standpoint. The artists who used the symbolic device of the surcote at this late date probably never saw a real one in wear, but knew it only from earlier art. Some of that art was monochrome media such as stone effigies or funeral brasses. On brasses in this era, the surcote image is evoked by something as simple as laying two curved lines over an otherwise intact image, sometimes of a gown style that's quite different from the original surcote in neckline or silhouette. It's possible that the artist in this case found it sufficient to just put in two curved lines to evoke the image. I sincerely doubt he was thinking anything about what a real woman would wear. (Interestingly, art historians have found stylistic links between manuscripts and brasses that indicate that some engravers might have copied certain scenes from manuscripts, or that manuscript artists may have done some brass design.) It's still fair to ask why the artist didn't use fur for Felicite's surcote, as he did for Fortuna. Sometimes looking at the composition from the perspective of the artist helps to illuminate (oops, sorry) the reasons for color choices and other issues such as positioning, surface patterns, etc. For instance, the artist may need certain colors or areas of dark/light to balance the total image, or to make a certain figure more prominent. These choices can affect clothing depictions in ways that are completely unrelated to the considerations of real-life clothing. There are also other symbolism issues involved. So, here, the artist may have wanted to simplify the figure and didn't want the added complexity or lightness that fur would add here. Or maybe he wanted to clothe Felicite, clearly the favored figure in this scene, in blue (a color associated with the Virgin, and also the most expensive color in the manuscript, reserved for the most important figures). Sometimes it helps to consider the painting methods of the period. Manuscript painting in this period, done in water-based paints, often did not use the color-mixing techniques we're familiar with from oil or tempera paintings; it was routine to lay down flat base colors and then to add highlights and shadows (often with hatching) to create depth and detail -- highlights by using a tint of the base color, and shadow by using a tone. In this case, it's possible that the laying of the base colors was done by one artist, and the highlighting done by a second, more specialized professional. The latter one may have decided that Felicite required a surcote where the first one had not planned on it -- something easily corrected by the quick addition of two highlighted lines. (Once an area is painted in color in watercolor paints, you cannot make it white again; the paints are transparent. You can only get tints.) Or it might all have been done by a single artist who simply changed his mind midstream, and made the correction at the highlighting stage. Often such images are made from model-books or from other existing manuscripts. If I were studying this as a manuscript scholar, I could hope I might identify another manuscript that might have used the same model (or even served as the model, but such luck is awfully rare) and compare the treatment of the two images, and the choices the artists made. Obviously I don't know what happened in this case; I'm just giving you an idea of some of the things that contribute to details such as this. All of these types of issues take us very far away from the question of what someone in real life might have worn, and for what purpose -- which is why it's important to remember that paintings of this period are not meant to be photographs, and it can be hazardous to try to read too much into details that may be compositional decisions or artifacts of overpainting or misreadings of models. At best, we can hope that the artist was correctly representing his *impression* of what the clothing would look like if it existed, based on what he was used to seeing in real life. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 02:08:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6O68TRM019067 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:08:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O66fYF001033 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:06:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O66bfA094852; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:06:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6O66ZfA094819 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:06:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040724060634.LHQL28276.out007.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:06:34 -0500 Message-ID: <4101FC71.70708@verizon.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:06:41 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] [2] poet shirt and docs References: <200407240324.i6O3ODfB013753@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407240324.i6O3ODfB013753@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:06:34 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I get questions periodically about my bliaut pages that are from people who want to do elfy costumes, but that's about as close as I get. Most people who want something "medievaloidish" are happy enough with my theatrical (and chock-full-o'-disclaimers) theatrical cutting layout sheets. M. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 08:22:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OCM6RM017320 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:22:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OCK8YF021972 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:20:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OCJwfA077693; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:19:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf11.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf11.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.211]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OCJsfA077577 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 06:19:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joedr@charter.net) Received: from mxip12.cluster1.charter.net (mxip12a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.142]) by mxsf11.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6OCJjKK010640 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:19:45 -0400 Received: from 66.169.187.190.ts46v-16.otnh2.ftwrth.tx.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (66.169.187.190) by mxip12.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2004 08:19:45 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,86,1089000000"; d="scan'217,208"; a="139903071:sNHT14380544" Message-ID: <410253DD.DFB1D781@charter.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:19:41 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur References: <200407230429.i6N4TmfB061775@net.indra.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040723153931.021da5c0@pop.radiks.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Is there anything remotely historically accurate about this movie, other than Hadrian's Wall did exist and Picts were blue? lol Slainte, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 09:16:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ODGORM017570 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:16:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODEZYF025098 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:14:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODEWfA005209; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:14:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODEVfA005181 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:14:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla_r1a223.in-tch.com [66.62.107.23]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6ODEON12031 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:14:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <410261A6.7010604@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:18:30 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur References: <200407230429.i6N4TmfB061775@net.indra.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20040723153931.021da5c0@pop.radiks.net> <410253DD.DFB1D781@charter.net> In-Reply-To: <410253DD.DFB1D781@charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There actually was a Rome with real Romans in it? and other real Romans that invaded other countries? --sue, helpfully Joe Robertson wrote: > Is there anything remotely historically accurate about this movie, other > than Hadrian's Wall did exist and Picts were blue? lol > Slainte, > Joe _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 09:40:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ODemRM017624 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:40:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODe2YF026615 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:40:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODdwfA018074; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:39:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODdufA018007 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:39:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.54.2f177efb (4592) for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:39:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <54.2f177efb.2e33c0a3@aol.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:39:47 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/24/04 7:20:59 AM Central Daylight Time, joedr@charter.net writes: Is there anything remotely historically accurate about this movie, other than Hadrian's Wall did exist and Picts were blue? lol Slainte, Joe Well, we can't PROVE it, but I'm sure there actually WERE some really, really good-looking knights. ::smiling helpfully:: -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 09:42:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ODgcRM017633 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:42:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODepYF026693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:40:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODeofA018575; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:40:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODelfA018455 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:40:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be49.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.73]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A7FC3262853 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:40:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004e01c47183$d027f2f0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FFFC2F.3050003@thibault.org><003601c4701d$6abeace0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <410055D5.3070206@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:40:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is harder to tell, but Christian IV who reigned from 1588- 1648 in Denmark had laceedged handkerchiefs. I have a bobbin lace pattern of this particular lace. It is on exhibition at Castle Rosenborg because it has blodstains on it from a time when the king lost his eye in battle. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia Virtue" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:03 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question > Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > > The very first bobbin lace printed book was printed in 1557. Le Pompe. It > > was an invention that some say came from Italy. So you could give her that > > lace edged handkerchief. She will love you for it! > > Thanks, Bjarne, and Danielle! That's good info. > > Second part of the question: the friend plays a noble man. Would a > *man* have had a lace edged handkerchief? (Sorry -- I should have asked > that with the first part!) > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > > Abstract words such as glory, honor, courage, or hallow were obscene. -- > Ernest Hemingway > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 09:59:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ODxURM017706 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:59:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODwxYF027689 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:58:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODwvfA027637; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:58:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ODwsfA027594 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:58:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6OEVS5c002539 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:31:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6OEVSAQ002538 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:31:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:31:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407241431.i6OEVSAQ002538@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! In-Reply-To: <200407232356.49652.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > > The "seam" starts about where the cloak meets her neckline and > > > > continues to where the "seam" hits the juncture of sleeve and wrist. > > > > You can see the line on the other sidestarting about the big nuckle on > > > > her hand and disappearing into the cloak. > > > > > > Yes, I see it now. However, what I see could just as easily be a fold in > > > the material as a seam. > > > > *giggle* That was sort of the point of that image -- was that a seam > > or the "edge" of a same-colored, symbolic, sideless surcoat! :-) > > Sure. Though it strikes me as pointless to wear a "symbolic sidelss surcoat" > in the *exact same color* as one's gown. If it's symbolic, why make it hard > to see? That you'll have to ask Robin -- I'm just learning how to tell that they're symbolic instead of "real!" Susan/ Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 10:13:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OEDRRM017780 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:13:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OEBgYF028438 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:11:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OEBffA034378; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:11:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OEBbfA034336 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:11:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6OEiF5c002716 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:44:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6OEiFqk002715 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:44:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407241444.i6OEiFqk002715@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! In-Reply-To: <200407241431.i6OEVSAQ002538@sabre.goldsword.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > > > The "seam" starts about where the cloak meets her neckline and > > > > > continues to where the "seam" hits the juncture of sleeve and wrist. > > > > > You can see the line on the other sidestarting about the big nuckle on > > > > > her hand and disappearing into the cloak. > > > > > > > > Yes, I see it now. However, what I see could just as easily be a fold in > > > > the material as a seam. > > > > > > *giggle* That was sort of the point of that image -- was that a seam > > > or the "edge" of a same-colored, symbolic, sideless surcoat! :-) > > > > Sure. Though it strikes me as pointless to wear a "symbolic sidelss surcoat" > > in the *exact same color* as one's gown. If it's symbolic, why make it hard > > to see? > > That you'll have to ask Robin -- I'm just learning how to tell that > they're symbolic instead of "real!" And she beat me to it, too! Thanks! Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 11:17:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OFHGRM018188 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:17:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OFGfYF002383 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:16:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OFGWfA069332; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:16:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf14.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf14.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.214]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OFGVfA069263 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:16:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joedr@charter.net) Received: from mxip16.cluster1.charter.net (mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.146]) by mxsf14.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6OFGP02028151 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:16:25 -0400 Received: from 66.169.187.190.ts46v-16.otnh2.ftwrth.tx.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (66.169.187.190) by mxip16.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2004 11:16:25 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,86,1089000000"; d="scan'217,208"; a="136487696:sNHT16122540" Message-ID: <41027D43.8581F3AC@charter.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:16:19 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur References: <54.2f177efb.2e33c0a3@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Very funny! Is it just me, or were they calling all of the "woad" characters britons? Historically, the celts north of the wall were Picts (my ancestors). That is modern day Scotland. Also (it mat just be me again) but I really would have preferred to see the Picts in true highland battle attire, and you know what that means...and that's not because whats her name would have been so attired, either. lol I did see a torc or two, though. Slainte, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 11:25:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OFPfRM018199 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:25:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OFNKYF002639 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:23:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OFNGfA072753; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:23:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OFNDfB072730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:23:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6OFKhtY005674 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:20:43 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <41027EDF.3070300@thibault.org> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:23:11 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question References: <40FFFC2F.3050003@thibault.org><003601c4701d$6abeace0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <410055D5.3070206@thibault.org> <004e01c47183$d027f2f0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <004e01c47183$d027f2f0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > This is harder to tell, but Christian IV who reigned from 1588- 1648 in > Denmark had laceedged handkerchiefs. I have a bobbin lace pattern of this > particular lace. It is on exhibition at Castle Rosenborg because it has > blodstains on it from a time when the king lost his eye in battle. Thanks! The lace I have is probably bobbin lace, from 1960s Puerto Rico, in a lustrous, probably-cotton cord. But it's more like Renaissance lace than anything I've seen in the stores. -- Cynthia Virtue Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 12:26:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OGQ9RM018447 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:26:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OGPaYF006560 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:25:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OGPWfA006652; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:25:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OGPVfA006592 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:25:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.f6.3d7cc318 (3988) for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:25:20 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:25:19 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/24/2004 8:20:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, joedr@charter.net writes: > Is there anything remotely historically accurate about this movie, other > than Hadrian's Wall did exist and Picts were blue? lol > Don't worry. As long as someone somewhere likes it and it makes some money, it will be worthwhile. Right? [check your sarcasm meters] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 12:28:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OGSQRM018460 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:28:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OGROYF006702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:27:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OGRNfA007679; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:27:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OGRLfA007617 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:27:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.a0.1222d690 (3988) for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:27:11 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:27:11 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/24/2004 11:17:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, joedr@charter.net writes: > but I really would have preferred to > see the Picts in true highland battle attire, and you know what that > means... All the men would be in leather bikinis too? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 13:05:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OH5sRM018676 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:05:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OH5IYF009111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:05:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OH5GfA028302; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:05:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf06.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf06.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.206]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OH5CfA028226 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:05:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joedr@charter.net) Received: from mxip18.cluster1.charter.net (mxip18a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.148]) by mxsf06.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6OH56tD017358 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:05:06 -0400 Received: from 66.169.187.190.ts46v-16.otnh2.ftwrth.tx.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (66.169.187.190) by mxip18.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2004 13:05:06 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,86,1089000000"; d="scan'217,208"; a="136105419:sNHT16703380" Message-ID: <410296BC.AC4212C5@charter.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:05:00 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur References: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, my goodness. That was an awful costume. What I meant was that everyone would have been naked. This certainly would have enhanced the films female appeal, I'm sure. I am male, but there was at least one female amongst the hordes. :o) I just believe in authenticity in costuming, even if that means no costume at all. Another thing that was missing was any trew-like garments on any of the celts when they were in assembly, as opposed to combat. No brats, either. In fact, I'm not sure what they were wearing, now that I think about it. Cheers, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 13:08:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OH8HRM018703 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:08:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OH7KYF009268 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:07:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OH7JfA029398; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:07:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf21.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf21.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.221]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OH7HfA029340 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:07:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joedr@charter.net) Received: from mxip08.cluster1.charter.net (mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.138]) by mxsf21.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6OH7BAR004371 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:07:11 -0400 Received: from 66.169.187.190.ts46v-16.otnh2.ftwrth.tx.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (66.169.187.190) by mxip08.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2004 13:06:56 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,86,1089000000"; d="scan'217,208"; a="142514878:sNHT45671295440" Message-ID: <4102972C.35EC2EED@charter.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:06:52 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur References: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey, I liked it...in spite of its shortcomings. Kiera Knightly had the whole savage in battle thing down pat. lol Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 13:31:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OHVVRM018846 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:31:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OHUiYF010772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:30:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OHUffA041568; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:30:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OHUcfA041453 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:30:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004072417303201400dig5qe>; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:30:32 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] [2] poet shirt and docs Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:30:33 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4101E39C.10202@ripco.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO "Why do you want this outfit?" "What do you want people to say when they see you in it?" "How often do you plan on wearing it, and where (outdoors, indoors, camping, etc)?" "How are you going to launder and take care of it?" "What do you need to be able to do in it?", etc I run a similar gambit of questions with every possibility that comes my way. It helps me to determine what they want and how much they will value it and I base my decision to take the commission on the results. It helps. I've also had those interviews go in such a manner where I have stated I'm sorry I'm just not interested in taking on your project. The reason is simply because making what they want offends my sensibilities too much and I don't want my name associated with it. Usually because the cut or style is COMPLETELY unflattering to the person who is to wear it. But it also gives you a clue of what dealing with this person is going to be like. Since I do fantasy costuming as well as historical I usually make a big point to anyone asking my input that I need to know their reasons behind what they want before I can answer the question. I've had people get offended because I can't read their minds but most seem to be flattered that you are willing to give them a bit more directed attention. Molly _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 13:35:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OHZrRM018868 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:35:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OHZGYF011058 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:35:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OHZEfA044090; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:35:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OHZBfA044017 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:35:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004072417350401500inr5re>; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:35:04 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Arthur Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:35:06 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4102972C.35EC2EED@charter.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I liked it too I just did a mental suspend on the costuming and watched the rest for the sheer pleasure. The other option (which is how I handled Knight's tale) is to simply look at the costuming and go "well it IS a spoof framed from a Chaucer Allegory, why not?" It isn't as if Hollyweird knows any better. Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Joe Robertson Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 10:07 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur Hey, I liked it...in spite of its shortcomings. Kiera Knightly had the whole savage in battle thing down pat. lol Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 15:22:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OJLxRM019472 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:22:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OJJTYF017848 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:19:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OJJLfA001289; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:19:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OJJIfA001251 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:19:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ruthanneb@mindspring.com) Received: from sdn-ap-009masprip0332.dialsprint.net ([63.186.145.78]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BoS3A-0002r0-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:19:17 -0400 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:20:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] mystery garments From: ruthanne baumgartner To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20040723210509.01edd8a0@pop.surewest.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This was my reaction too. I have such a yoke in my box of crocheted things from my great-grandmother, meant "someday" to be brightened and completed. I'd like to see a picture first, though, to be (as Joan says) confident. --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer on 7/24/04 12:08 AM, Joan Jurancich at joanmj@surewest.net wrote: > To me they sound like yokes for a slip or nightdress. I have several books > with lots of patterns (reprints of early 20th century pattern books) in > crochet and tatting for such yokes. If you can scan them and post the > pictures somewhere, I'd feel more confident of my guess . > Joan > > At 02:14 PM 7/23/2004 -0700, you wrote: >> Hi! >> I have an elderly neighbor who dropped by to ask me if >> I knew what these objects are that she has. She >> thought I might know since I do costuming but i'm >> stumped--I told her I would ask you clever people! >> >> They are (she thinks) early 20th century,they are >> yellowed cotton thread, tatted or crocheted.One is >> more decorative than the other, but both are not very >> fancy. >> We tried them on my 9 year-old daughter because she >> thought they might be really short little bolero-type >> vests for girls, but they seem sized for a small >> woman-too big through the armscye, and overlapping at >> the center-front on my daughter(or maybe it's supposed >> to be the center-back?). >> One has shoulder straps, the other is wider over the >> shoulder, and they made me wonder if they could be >> some early (1920s?)form of bra? They have some stretch >> to them because of the way they were crocheted >> so I could imagine them giving minimal support. They >> don't have any obvious darts or anything to give form >> to the breast, so they would flatten it. There are no >> closures on them. >> Does anyone have a guess? >> My neighbor also wondered if there was a place in the >> LA/Southern California area that might want to >> buy/resell some vintage high-button shoes she has in >> her collection. >> Thanks for your help! >> Cynthia > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 15:46:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OJkJRM019584 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:46:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OJiRYF019256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:44:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OJiPfA014952; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:44:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OJiMfA014838 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:44:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be49.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.73]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A5405EE018 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:44:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000801c471b6$a4343d10$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <40FFFC2F.3050003@thibault.org><003601c4701d$6abeace0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <410055D5.3070206@thibault.org><004e01c47183$d027f2f0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <41027EDF.3070300@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:44:32 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In genneral i think that it is much better to use a simple torchon lace for an edging than finding some polyester machine ones. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cynthia Virtue" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mid 1500s French question > Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > > > This is harder to tell, but Christian IV who reigned from 1588- 1648 in > > Denmark had laceedged handkerchiefs. I have a bobbin lace pattern of this > > particular lace. It is on exhibition at Castle Rosenborg because it has > > blodstains on it from a time when the king lost his eye in battle. > > Thanks! > > The lace I have is probably bobbin lace, from 1960s Puerto Rico, in a > lustrous, probably-cotton cord. But it's more like Renaissance lace > than anything I've seen in the stores. > > -- > Cynthia Virtue > > Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. > Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 15:56:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OJu8RM019614 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:56:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OJoZYF019571 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:50:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OJoWfA018284; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:50:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f38.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.88]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OJoVfA018243 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 13:50:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 12:50:26 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:50:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: Eureka! (maybe)Re: [h-cost] 17th-18th century costuming Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 14:50:25 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jul 2004 19:50:26.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[76F8B0A0:01C471B7] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: david webb >I wonder if "French Fall" isn't an eighteenth century spelling for "French >faille" since so many textiles were used for women's footwear, including >prunella, (one of my favorite textile names). I "googled" "French Faille" >and came across 1960's shoes being sold at some retro clothing site, as >well as bridesmaids dresses and textiles sites, so the phrase is still >used, but not much. Intersting. I'll pass that along. Thank you. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 17:04:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OL4NRM020084 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:04:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OL3nYF023352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:03:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OL3gfA057044; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:03:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OL3efA057000 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:03:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BoTg9-000HSj-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:03:37 +0000 Message-ID: <+6DZ4FMy1sABJwCf@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:58:26 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: [h-cost] poet shirt / belts References: <41010986.10102@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1;format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO otsisto wrote >-----Original Message----- > > >I've been having a discussion with someone who found my website -- his >friends have convinced him that a blue poet's shirt, poofy pants, and a >belt over the shirt is the right thing for a wealthy merchant to wear >circa 1390. He doesn't want to do any research. I don't know why he >bothered asking me if it was a good thing to wear, if he's not going to >even ask his friends for their sources (which I suggested in my most >encouraging, non-snarky manner.) > >ARGH. > >-- >Cynthia Virtue and/or >Cynthia du Pré Argent >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Don't you just love the miracle belt? Able to keep pants on while holding >down the shirt. It's amazing isn't it? >Oh, didn't you know there were Period pirate poets in period? Like the >famous Blues Clueless (as opposed to Bluebeard) or the physician from the >ship Romantics, Doc Umentless Whimsy. :P >(sarcasm, don't leave home without it) > >De > That reminds me, I must write to the curator at a historic site we visited the other week. They had a case of dolls dressed for various episodes in the site's history. They were very well done, we were extremely impressed, except... the 12th century mason had his hose tied up to the belt *over* his tunic. You would think the way it gathered up his tunic would be a clue, but I suppose it just didn't occur that he would have two belts on. Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 17:36:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6OLaDRM020212 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:36:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OLZbYF024881 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:35:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OLZZfA074382; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:35:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6OLZUfB074342 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:35:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6OLX1tY007616 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:33:01 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4102D621.6040109@thibault.org> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:35:29 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] poet shirt / belts References: <41010986.10102@thibault.org> <+6DZ4FMy1sABJwCf@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <+6DZ4FMy1sABJwCf@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Jean Waddie wrote: > except... the 12th century mason had his hose tied > up to the belt *over* his tunic. You would think the way it gathered up > his tunic would be a clue, but I suppose it just didn't occur that he > would have two belts on. Or tied to an undergarment. Men don't have much in the way of hips, so the hose would work better with what became a pourpoint. My cheap workaround for my husband is a suspender-like arrangement; looks a bit like a ladder when flat. He wears it over his shirt and under his overgown/houppelande. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to use the Internet and he will leave you alone for a week. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 19:16:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ONGaRM020617 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:16:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ONFuYF000834 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:15:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ONFmfA028195; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:15:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf13.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf13.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.213]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ONFjfA028128 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 17:15:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joedr@charter.net) Received: from mxip07.cluster1.charter.net (mxip07a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.137]) by mxsf13.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6ONFcPb024608 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:15:39 -0400 Received: from 66.169.187.190.ts46v-16.otnh2.ftwrth.tx.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (66.169.187.190) by mxip07.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 24 Jul 2004 19:15:39 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,86,1089000000"; d="scan'217,208"; a="136511551:sNHT16392780" Message-ID: <4102ED92.1C75328B@charter.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:15:30 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur References: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I hear that neither Kiera Knightly OR the show's costume designer liked her weird outfit, that it was the director who insisted that it be implimented. This appears to me to be a puerile attempt at young adult male turn on value. Anyone know more about this? Aye, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 24 22:02:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6P22wRM021388 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:02:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6P22HYF010352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:02:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6P22DfA015973; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:02:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail03.powweb.com (mail03.powweb.com [66.152.97.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6P22BfA015888 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 20:02:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from megan@benchite.com) Received: from megan2 (pcp06952326pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [69.140.8.214]) by mail03.powweb.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBBE15C2F for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 19:05:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Megan M." To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] mystery garments Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:02:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <20040723211414.47618.qmail@web40811.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Thread-Index: AcRw+p9NOFOBZeDASqa1JUiXXFhZEgA8LbIg Message-Id: <20040725020542.DBBBE15C2F@mail03.powweb.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I thought of corset covers, or the yokes to be made into corset covers? -Megan -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Cynthia Corley Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 5:14 PM To: h-costume@net.indra.com Subject: [h-cost] mystery garments Hi! I have an elderly neighbor who dropped by to ask me if I knew what these objects are that she has. She thought I might know since I do costuming but i'm stumped--I told her I would ask you clever people! They are (she thinks) early 20th century,they are yellowed cotton thread, tatted or crocheted.One is more decorative than the other, but both are not very fancy. We tried them on my 9 year-old daughter because she thought they might be really short little bolero-type vests for girls, but they seem sized for a small woman-too big through the armscye, and overlapping at the center-front on my daughter(or maybe it's supposed to be the center-back?). One has shoulder straps, the other is wider over the shoulder, and they made me wonder if they could be some early (1920s?)form of bra? They have some stretch to them because of the way they were crocheted so I could imagine them giving minimal support. They don't have any obvious darts or anything to give form to the breast, so they would flatten it. There are no closures on them. Does anyone have a guess? My neighbor also wondered if there was a place in the LA/Southern California area that might want to buy/resell some vintage high-button shoes she has in her collection. Thanks for your help! Cynthia ===== Art is not a mirror held up to reality but a hammer with which to shape it. Bertolt Brecht __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 00:31:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6P4VRRM022014 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:31:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6P4UnYF018117 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:30:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6P4UGfA093235; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:30:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6P4UCfB093201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:30:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6P4Ve1X027987 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:31:41 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 00:36:45 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <4102ED92.1C75328B@charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4102ED92.1C75328B@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407250036.45057.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=HOT_NASTY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 24 July 2004 7:15 pm, Joe Robertson wrote: > I hear that neither Kiera Knightly OR the show's costume designer liked > her weird outfit, that it was the director who insisted that it be > implimented. This appears to me to be a puerile attempt at young adult > male turn on value. Anyone know more about this? No. But I agree with the critic who compared Guenevere's costume to the bizarre white thing Leeloo wears at the beginning of "The Fifth Element." :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 09:10:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PDARRM004059 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:10:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PD8KYF012360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:08:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PD7bfA052648; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:07:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PD7YfA052618 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:07:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-56-105.jps.net ([209.165.56.105] helo=KALC) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Boiiy-0000NK-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:07:32 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:07:28 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] commedia del'arte costumes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I just received an email from a high school teacher who is looking for images/resources for commedia del'arte costumes. Any suggestions on any sources I could recommend. Thx, Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 10:39:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PEdYRM004456 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:39:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PEcRYF017094 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:38:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PEcMfA099567; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:38:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf05.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf05.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.205]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PEcJfA099466 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:38:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joedr@charter.net) Received: from mxip16.cluster1.charter.net (mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.146]) by mxsf05.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6PEcC4q025095 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:38:13 -0400 Received: from 66.169.187.190.ts46v-16.otnh2.ftwrth.tx.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (66.169.187.190) by mxip16.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 25 Jul 2004 10:38:12 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,86,1089000000"; d="scan'217,208"; a="137730089:sNHT15487596" Message-ID: <4103C5D0.F9FDC91@charter.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:38:08 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur References: <4102ED92.1C75328B@charter.net> <200407250036.45057.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Perhaps the two movies shared the same costume designer, or at least Arthur's costume designer had just retured from a 5th element experience, enhanced and driven by a little peyote (or gobs of it). Maybe the director was there, too. Food for thought... Aye, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 11:13:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PFDKRM004584 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:13:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PFCnYF018647 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:12:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PFCkfA017671; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:12:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PFCifA017630 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:12:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6PFjR5c011787 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:45:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6PFjRYU011786 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:45:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:45:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407251545.i6PFjRYU011786@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <410013D5.6010606@verizon.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] job opening in PA/AZ/FL X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This just came across the SCA garb list ..... >>>>> Saw this in the local paper today looking for a costume designer in Central Pennsylvania. Thought I'd pass the info along. Wish I had the skill for this:) Darka Prather Family of Theatres hiring a full-time national costume designer and coordinator for three theatres in PA, FL and AZ. Oversee local staffs and manage central warehouse. Manage annual budget of $250,000. Resposiblity to design 6-8 new productions each year. Travel required. Responsible for full color designs, patterns, material selection and purchasing. Travel and housing paid during production time. Preferred residence to be in Lancaster PA. Salary commesurate with experience. Submit professional portfolio and resume to Seth Reines Artistic Producer Broadway Palm West Theatre 5247 East Brown Road Mesa AZ 85205 or email to seth@broadwaypalmwest.com You can see the Prather Theatre website at www.prathertheatres.com <<<<< Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 11:47:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PFl0RM004757 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:47:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PFkMYF020670 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:46:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PFkIfA035470; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:46:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PFkDfB035448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 09:46:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6PFljBW017657 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:47:46 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:52:49 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407250036.45057.cathy@thyrsus.com> <4103C5D0.F9FDC91@charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4103C5D0.F9FDC91@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407251152.49500.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sunday 25 July 2004 10:38 am, Joe Robertson wrote: > Perhaps the two movies shared the same costume designer, or at least > Arthur's costume designer had just retured from a 5th element > experience, enhanced and driven by a little peyote (or gobs of it). > Maybe the director was there, too. > Food for thought... I suppose the same designer could have been involved, or the designer for "Arthur" could have been inspired by "Fifth Element". However, "Fifth Element" came out in 1995, so it's unlikely anybody "had just returned' from that experience to working on Arthur. :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 13:36:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PHaSRM005293 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:36:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PHYWYF027432 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:34:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PHYNfA094782; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:34:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PHYGfA094724 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:34:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040725173416.BXTW26805.out003.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:34:16 -0500 Message-ID: <003501c4726d$9d970b60$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] commedia del'arte costumes Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:34:18 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:34:15 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am actually doing research for commedia del'arte for Everett Community College. There are a ton of plays and skits that use the players and they are dressed the same for all plays. It isn't hard to find scripts for commedia del'arte, just hard to decide which one to use. Here are a list of the players: Arlecchino (Harlequin), Venice, an acrobat and clown, he carried a baton which he used to bash other characters, leading to the modern term slapstick. He wore a cat mask, and his ultimate costume, a patchwork of red, green, and blue diamonds is still a fashion motif, though any patchwork costume would be called a harlequin costume. He is a not really villainous, he is just a bit dodgy. a.. Brighella (Figaro, Moli re's Scapin), Bergamo, a money-grubbing villain, a partner of Arlecchino a.. Columbina (Colombina, the Servant, Columbine, Harlequine, Pierrette), Venice, maidservant to Inamorata and lover of Arlecchino, usually involved in intrigue. She is rather intelligent. a.. Il Capitano (the Captain), boastful he-man soldier, but a coward underneath a.. Il Dottore (the Doctor), Bologna, Pantalone's friend, and a quack a.. Inamorata (the Lover), the leading woman, who wore no mask (see innamorati) a.. Inamorato (the Lover), the leading man, who wore no mask (see innamorati)-his partner is also called a lover. a.. Pagliaccio (the Clown), a forerunner of today's clowns a.. Pantalone (Pantaloon), Bologna, a rich and miserly merchant who is the father of Columbina. He also employs Arlecchino and treats him cruelly. a.. Pedrolino (or Pierino, Vicenza, and most commonly nowadays known as Pierrot a dreamer with a white mask, now considered the French version of a clown. a.. Pulcinella, Naples, a hunchback who still chases women, he was the model for Punch in the English variation Punch and Judy. a.. La Ruffiana (old woman), usually a mother or gossipy townswoman who intrudes into the lives of the Lovers a.. Scaramuccia (Scaramouche), a roguish adventurer and swordsman who replaced Il Capitano in later troupes. Was the servant for another character. He wears a black velvet mask and black trousers, shirt and hat. a.. Gianduia, Turin, a well-mannered Piedmontese peasant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 6:07 AM Subject: [h-cost] commedia del'arte costumes > I just received an email from a high school teacher who is looking for > images/resources for commedia del'arte costumes. Any suggestions on any > sources I could recommend. > > Thx, > > Lisa Sinervo > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 13:38:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PHcSRM005299 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:38:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PHbwYF027694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:37:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PHbwfA096634; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:37:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PHbtfA096575 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:37:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hbgd103@soton.ac.uk) Received: from modem-1489.antelope.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.21.209] helo=soton.ac.uk) by cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Bomwa-0008M7-5w for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:37:52 +0100 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:42:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [h-cost] P&P (was Re: Arthur) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Hilary Davidson To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4102ED92.1C75328B@charter.net> Message-Id: <0A6AD398-DE62-11D8-BBE6-000A9567E116@soton.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, she's got at least one more dodgy costume coming up in Pride and Prejudice. http://www.thezreview.co.uk/news3/prideandprejudice.htm. Regency isn't my best period, but this looks like something bought out of an Indian shop and altered. Apparently the whole production has been 'upped' - grander houses, bigger love story, etc. Why are they making it??? All historical knowledge will have to be suspended while watching, yet again. I wasn't on the list when Elizabeth came out, but I'm glad to hear others thought the costuming left much to be desired. Non-costume friends look at me funny when I say that's why I didn't like it. On Sunday, July 25, 2004, at 12:15 am, Joe Robertson wrote: > I hear that neither Kiera Knightly OR the show's costume designer liked > her weird outfit, that it was the director who insisted that it be > implimented. This appears to me to be a puerile attempt at young adult > male turn on value. Anyone know more about this? > Aye, > Joe > --- > Joe Robertson, Psy.D. > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 13:44:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PHiRRM005323 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:44:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PHhsYF028180 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:43:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PHhofA000234; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:43:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf13.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf13.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.213]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PHhnfA000171 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 11:43:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joedr@charter.net) Received: from mxip01.cluster1.charter.net (mxip01a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.131]) by mxsf13.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6PHhhhB003355 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:43:43 -0400 Received: from 66.169.187.190.ts46v-16.otnh2.ftwrth.tx.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (66.169.187.190) by mxip01.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 25 Jul 2004 13:43:43 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,86,1089000000"; d="scan'217,208"; a="116793495:sNHT16161898" Message-ID: <4103F148.22876980@charter.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:43:36 -0500 From: Joe Robertson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur References: <200407250036.45057.cathy@thyrsus.com> <4103C5D0.F9FDC91@charter.net> <200407251152.49500.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That is certainly true. Another thought: maybe the designer took ill and his/her pubescent male offspring finished the project, deciding that the poor lass would look good with leather straps about her torso, mashing her boobs flat. It's all good. Naked was still the way to go, though. Any thoughts on the Roman soldiers' armor and garb in general? Aye, Joe --- Joe Robertson, Psy.D. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 14:24:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PIOIRM005489 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:24:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PIMTYF000812 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:22:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PIMRfA021584; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:22:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PIMMfA021505 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:22:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from zski@ripco.com) Received: from ripco.com (tcr70.dynip.ripco.net [209.100.226.70]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PIMGpk004949 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:22:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <4103FA4C.1050309@ripco.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:22:04 -0500 From: zski User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Subject: RE: [h-cost] [2] poet shirt and docs References: <200407241801.i6OI0vfC058598@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407241801.i6OI0vfC058598@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO From: "Molly Boone" Subject: RE: [h-cost] [2] poet shirt and docs The reason is simply because making what they want offends my sensibilities too much and I don't want my name associated with it. Usually because the cut or style is COMPLETELY unflattering to the person who is to wear it. ------------------------------ Oh yeah - I get those to. I outright refused to make a "fairy" costume for a woman who wanted a waist-cut that would make her butt look huge, shoulders and neckline guaranteed to make her look like a linebacker, and a shiny fabric guaranteed to show every bukge and wrinkle of her figure. I tactfully tried to steer her towards a re-design with a re-cut shape, matter fabric, and lots of floaty (and disguising) matte chiffon. She wouldn't budge, so I refused the commission. She got somoene else to make her exactly what she asked for, and she looked like crap! Wendy Z who forgot her sunscreen @ Bristol yesterday. ow ow ow ow Chicago, IL _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 15:05:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PJ5ORM005671 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:05:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PJ4qYF003378 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:04:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PJ4nfA044802; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:04:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell3.shore.net (shell3.shore.net [207.244.124.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PJ4ifB044743 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:04:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from vintage@primushost.com) Received: from vintage by shell3.shore.net with local (Exim) for h-costume@indra.com id 1BooKd-0002Mc-00; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:06:47 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:06:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Katy Bishop To: historic costume Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] men's bathing costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A cute men's bathing costume is available on ebay right now. Striped, sleeveless, with buttons on one shoulder. The skirt is striped but the undershorts are plain colored. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=52383&item=8119971485&rd=1 Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 17:12:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PLCgRM006419 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:12:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PLARYF011582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:10:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PLAFfA014138; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:10:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PLADfA014066 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:10:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.59.116fdeac (4312) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:10:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <59.116fdeac.2e357bab@aol.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:10:03 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] P&P (was Re: Arthur) To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/25/04 12:38:17 PM Central Daylight Time, hbgd103@soton.ac.uk writes: Regency isn't my best period, but this looks like something bought out of an Indian shop and altered. Huh? It looks perfectly accurate for the Regency period to me. It might not have been worn on its own in public, but we don't know the context in which she is wearing it yet, so I'd say it's a bit premature to be judging that part of it. Other than that, the cut, fabrics and style look dead on for the first couple of decades of the 19th century. And I absolutely love the coat. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 17:57:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PLv0RM006627 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:57:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PLt3YF014388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:55:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PLt1fA037198; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:55:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PLswfA037153 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:54:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BoqxL-000Cf0-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:54:55 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:54:48 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] poet shirt / belts References: <41010986.10102@thibault.org> <+6DZ4FMy1sABJwCf@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> <4102D621.6040109@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <4102D621.6040109@thibault.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cynthia Virtue wrote >Jean Waddie wrote: > >> except... the 12th century mason had his hose tied up to the belt >>*over* his tunic. You would think the way it gathered up his tunic >>would be a clue, but I suppose it just didn't occur that he would >>have two belts on. > >Or tied to an undergarment. Men don't have much in the way of hips, so >the hose would work better with what became a pourpoint. > >My cheap workaround for my husband is a suspender-like arrangement; >looks a bit like a ladder when flat. He wears it over his shirt and >under his overgown/houppelande. > I appreciate you may be saying that a belt doesn't work, or is uncomfortable, for your husband, but I don't think pourpoints started so early. We certainly have evidence of men wearing hose supported around their waists. There are some really good pictures in the Maciejowski Bible (1250). They are wearing braies (underpants) which are very baggy and rolled around the waist, and their hose are fixed up to whatever is under that roll - for which the simplest solution seems to be a belt. This picture shows the braies really clearly: http://www1.tip.nl/~t401243/mac/mac18rB.jpg and this one shows the hose - warning, not a very pleasant picture, it shows a beheaded body being hung from the walls of a town - but the costume detail is great! http://www1.tip.nl/~t401243/mac/mac35vA.jpg If you want to see more of the Bible, the contents page is at http://www.keesn.nl/mac/mac_en.htm Admittedly my husband has enough cuddly bits to keep a belt up, but I'm not aware that the slimmer members of our group (and we have some really skinny guys) have a problem with it. There are a couple of pictures in the Winchester Bible (1160) where the tunic just clears the top of the hose and there seems to be something baggy tucked into it, like the Maciejowski style. I believe the Saxon / 11th century version has more straight-legged braies, more like modern shorts, and the hose are pinned on to them on the front of the thigh. I think there are grave finds showing the pins, but I don't know what other evidence there is for that. One issue with a pourpoint is that it wouldn't be comfortable without a shirt underneath, and there doesn't seem to be a garment that would fit that niche at this stage - you strip off your tunic (and undertunic?) to leave braies and hose, as one unit. I don't know how the shirt and pourpoint arrangement develops, but I'm guessing it appears as the upper-body garment gets shorter and hose rise and join up at the waist. Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 19:15:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PNF2RM006969 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:15:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PNERYF018194 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:14:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PNEMfA077762; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:14:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PNEJfA077694 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:14:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 061251800A8A for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:14:14 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.33) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 25 Jul 2004 23:12:06 -0000 Received: by ws7-4.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E7D9FCA06C; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:14:13 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-4.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:14:13 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:14:13 +0000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] P&P (was Re: Arthur) X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-4.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040725231413.E7D9FCA06C@ws7-4.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I thought the back/armscyes looked quite good, but I thought it was a little low in the waist for that length and drape of skirt. I personally am looking forward to seeing what they do with it. And the guy sitting down in one of the shots looked well dressed. Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > In a message dated 7/25/04 12:38:17 PM Central Daylight Time, > hbgd103@soton.ac.uk writes: > Regency isn't my best period, but this looks like something bought out > of an Indian shop and altered. > > Huh? It looks perfectly accurate for the Regency period to me. It might not > have been worn on its own in public, but we don't know the context in which > she is wearing it yet, so I'd say it's a bit premature to be judging that part > of it. Other than that, the cut, fabrics and style look dead on for the first > couple of decades of the 19th century. And I absolutely love the coat. > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 19:34:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PNYXRM007083 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:34:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PNXrYF019097 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:33:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PNXpfA087843; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:33:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PNXmfB087810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:33:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6PNZLl4027281 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:35:22 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:40:26 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407251152.49500.cathy@thyrsus.com> <4103F148.22876980@charter.net> In-Reply-To: <4103F148.22876980@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407251940.26105.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sunday 25 July 2004 1:43 pm, Joe Robertson wrote: > That is certainly true. Another thought: maybe the designer took ill and > his/her pubescent male offspring finished the project, deciding that the > poor lass would look good with leather straps about her torso, mashing > her boobs flat. > It's all good. Naked was still the way to go, though. > Any thoughts on the Roman soldiers' armor and garb in general? IMHO both were, in very broad general outline, within striking distance of historical models but were wrong in most details. The details that annoyed me most were: The lamellae used on the armor for some of Arthur's knights (wrong shape and too big for period lamellar armor); The peculiar sleeve buttons shown on the blue gown thing Guenevere wears in certain scenes (would not have been worn in Rome, let alone the provinces; provincial women's wear likely would be along general Roman lines but without buttons, and closed-sleeve tunics were being worn even in Rome by the fifth c. CE; The clothes most of the men wore when *not* fighting (the basket-weave black leather tunic with *metal* grommets Lancelot wears in several scenes was particularly anachronistic); The weird combination leather/fabric/mail garment shown on the Saxon leader; The color scheme (too drab; way too much black; even if you assume natural dyes were not very fast in period the likely result is that poorer people wore washed-out shades a lot of the time rather than exclusively undyed fabric). On the other hand, "chain mail" (the stuff made out of interlinked rings; I'm not going to get into why the term "chain mail" is misleading/redundant) was heavily used by the Romans, both before and during this period, and was used by most other fighters in Europe who could afford it as well (which would include the more high ranked/richer of the Saxons). I personally think the authenticity level would have been higher if more of Arthur's knights had worn chain mail. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 19:44:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6PNiNRM007167 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:44:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PNhhYF019696 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:43:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PNhgfA093171; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:43:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6PNhcfB093144 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:43:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6PNf5tY023901 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:41:05 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410445A7.4080208@thibault.org> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:43:35 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval was: poet shirt / belts References: <41010986.10102@thibault.org> <+6DZ4FMy1sABJwCf@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> <4102D621.6040109@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Jean Waddie wrote: > I don't think pourpoints started so early. Neither do I. I think there was something else other than a belt, though. A pourpoint is a highly constructed garment. That's not what I meant. > They are wearing braies (underpants) which are very baggy > and rolled around the waist, and their hose are fixed up to whatever is > under that roll - for which the simplest solution seems to be a belt. My main question about these images is that it's only men with naked chests which show the big bunchy roll around the waist -- it's not indicated under the clothing of men whose tunics are on. There's a graceful line at the waist on men who are fully dressed. So I theorize: What if there is a white undertunic of some sort, to which the hose are tied? If you're hot and you take off your outer tunic, and you still need to keep your hose on, it might make sense to roll up that white undertunic around your waist so that your hose stay on. And if not a white undertunic, what is the big bunchy thing made of and why doesn't it show under the overtunic on fully dressed men? -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 20:16:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q0GWRM007318 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:16:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q0EgYF021581 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:14:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q0EWfA009763; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:14:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt15.ihug.co.nz (grunt15.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q0EUfA009667 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:14:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p289-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.193.35] by grunt15.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1Bot8C-0005rD-00; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:14:17 +1200 Message-ID: <003f01c472a5$79c8f580$23c1adcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040725231413.E7D9FCA06C@ws7-4.us4.outblaze.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] P&P (was Re: Arthur) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:14:09 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO You know, looking at the front on photo of Keira as lizzie.. I think that they may have attepted to get the story back to what peopel are calling thr "real" period it was set. I mean not 1810 or so like the lastversion... It loos like it's just around 1800 if not ever so slightly earlier.. I wonder if that is what theya re doing, or just pulling styles from around the time (1798-1815) to make the charatcers fit the characters. I mean to make Lizzie more practical in her dress and less fashion directed etc. michaela http://costumes.glittersweet.com > > Huh? It looks perfectly accurate for the Regency period to me. It might not > > have been worn on its own in public, but we don't know the context in which > > she is wearing it yet, so I'd say it's a bit premature to be judging that part > > of it. Other than that, the cut, fabrics and style look dead on for the first > > couple of decades of the 19th century. And I absolutely love the coat. > > > > -Tiffany _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 21:24:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q1O4RM007690 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:24:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q1NQYF025598 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:23:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q1NJlk047344; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:23:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q1NGlk047286 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:23:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kavavita@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 77so54161rnl for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.89.38 with SMTP id m38mr2001rnb; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4f0c1b1204072518231e1ee889@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:23:14 -0700 From: heather meadows To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress In-Reply-To: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bjarne - where did you get that glorious silk? Her dress is so stunning, I was showing it around the office and everyone was drooling, and we make lots of wedding dresses! .heather. On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:05:56 +0200, Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Ok, so here is the finished dress. > http://www.my-drewscostumes.dk/xenia > Bjarne, who now earns a trip to Tivoli this afternoon for a coffe and cake. > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 23:07:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q37WRM008271 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:07:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q36kYF002540 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:06:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q36elk003209; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:06:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q36all003186 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:06:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6Q38AZl031459 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:08:11 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:13:14 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407252313.15010.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=PLING_QUERY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 24 July 2004 1:21 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > Sure. Though it strikes me as pointless to wear a "symbolic sidelss > > surcoat" in the *exact same color* as one's gown. If it's symbolic, > > why make it hard to see? > > It helps to remember that no one was actually *wearing* this, so that > point of view never enters into it. The symbolic conversation exists only > between artist and viewer, and does not take into account the > (hypothetical) concerns of the (nonexistent) wearer of the clothing. By > applying the surcote image, the artist was using "code," and it didn't > matter if the result made sense from a fashion standpoint. I wasn't *talking* about "from a fashion standpoint", Robin. If it's hard to ascertain whether a figure in a miniature is wearing a surcoat or not, the whole corpus of symbolism involved in *depicting* the figure in a surcoat gets lost. > The artists who used the symbolic device of the surcote at this late date > probably never saw a real one in wear, but knew it only from earlier art. > Some of that art was monochrome media such as stone effigies or funeral > brasses. On brasses in this era, the surcote image is evoked by something > as simple as laying two curved lines over an otherwise intact image, > sometimes of a gown style that's quite different from the original surcote > in neckline or silhouette. Of course, as you note, brasses and sculpture in general are a different medium--one in which the placement of lines is the only possible way to distinguish a surcoat from seams, folds, mere decoration, or something else entirely. > It's possible that the artist in this case > found it sufficient to just put in two curved lines to evoke the image. I suppose, though I think that explanation is still a stretch. I don't think an artist who was primarily a painter (of minatures, triptychs, or whatever) would think that way, though an artist who also did sculpture might. > I > sincerely doubt he was thinking anything about what a real woman would > wear. I agree; as I said above, my issue was that such an "invisible" surcoat is bad symbolism, because if you can't detect the symbolic image it may as well not be there. > (Interestingly, art historians have found stylistic links between > manuscripts and brasses that indicate that some engravers might have > copied certain scenes from manuscripts, or that manuscript artists may > have done some brass design.) That's better support for your argument; since as I said above, I can believe that a sculptor who also paints might not see a problem is doing a surcoat and the undergown in the same exact color, with only the contour lines to indicate what (symbolic) garment the figure is meant to be shown wearing. > It's still fair to ask why the artist didn't use fur for Felicite's > surcote, as he did for Fortuna. Yes, that would make the depiction clearer, as well as aiding the symbolism. > Sometimes looking at the composition from > the perspective of the artist helps to illuminate (oops, sorry) I have no problem with puns, even bad ones. :-) > the > reasons for color choices and other issues such as positioning, surface > patterns, etc. For instance, the artist may need certain colors or areas > of dark/light to balance the total image, or to make a certain figure more > prominent. These choices can affect clothing depictions in ways that are > completely unrelated to the considerations of real-life clothing. There > are also other symbolism issues involved. So, here, the artist may have > wanted to simplify the figure and didn't want the added complexity or > lightness that fur would add here. Or maybe he wanted to clothe Felicite, > clearly the favored figure in this scene, in blue (a color associated with > the Virgin, and also the most expensive color in the manuscript, reserved > for the most important figures). Perhaps, though I'm still skeptical that that is what's going on here. By the way, I'm not with the "it's a princess seam" school of thought; to the contrary. However, I'm more inclined to see the line on Felicite as just a fold or shadow of some kind; it doesn't visually communicate to me as a surcoat. > Sometimes it helps to consider the painting methods of the period. > Manuscript painting in this period, done in water-based paints, often did > not use the color-mixing techniques we're familiar with from oil or > tempera paintings; it was routine to lay down flat base colors and then to > add highlights and shadows (often with hatching) to create depth and > detail -- highlights by using a tint of the base color, and shadow by > using a tone. In this case, it's possible that the laying of the base > colors was done by one artist, and the highlighting done by a second, more > specialized professional. The latter one may have decided that Felicite > required a surcote where the first one had not planned on it -- something > easily corrected by the quick addition of two highlighted lines. (Once an > area is painted in color in watercolor paints, you cannot make it white > again; the paints are transparent. You can only get tints.) Or it might > all have been done by a single artist who simply changed his mind > midstream, and made the correction at the highlighting stage. I can believe that "mistakes were made," certainly. :-) Never having tried to paint minatures with period pigments, I cannot determine whether the "two highlighed lines" would have created a convincing surcoat effect when the painting is new. It's also relevant that my monitor tends to show things darker than they are, and I can barely detect the lines in question (unfortunately, I don't have access to a better copy of the image we're discussing). > Often such images are made from model-books or from other existing > manuscripts. If I were studying this as a manuscript scholar, I could > hope I might identify another manuscript that might have used the same > model (or even served as the model, but such luck is awfully rare) and > compare the treatment of the two images, and the choices the artists made. I agree that would help resolve the debate. > > Obviously I don't know what happened in this case; I'm just giving you an > idea of some of the things that contribute to details such as this. I appreciate that, but without the kind of analysis you allude to in the previous paragraph, it's hard even to hypothesize about what the artist was attempting to do--and thus what he was trying to paint. > All of > these types of issues take us very far away from the question of what > someone in real life might have worn, and for what purpose -- which is why > it's important to remember that paintings of this period are not meant to > be photographs, and it can be hazardous to try to read too much into > details that may be compositional decisions or artifacts of overpainting > or misreadings of models. [snip] On this point I agree with you completely. :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 23:08:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q382RM008274 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:08:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q37RYF002603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:07:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q37Qlk003642; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:07:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q37Nll003614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:07:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6Q38wLj031469 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:08:58 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:14:03 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407241444.i6OEiFqk002715@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407241444.i6OEiFqk002715@sabre.goldsword.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407252314.03239.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=PLING_QUERY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 24 July 2004 10:44 am, Susan Farmer wrote: [snip] > > > > *giggle* That was sort of the point of that image -- was that a seam > > > > or the "edge" of a same-colored, symbolic, sideless surcoat! :-) > > > > > > Sure. Though it strikes me as pointless to wear a "symbolic sidelss > > > surcoat" in the *exact same color* as one's gown. If it's symbolic, > > > why make it hard to see? > > > > That you'll have to ask Robin -- I'm just learning how to tell that > > they're symbolic instead of "real!" > > And she beat me to it, too! Yes. You'll see my response to Robin's post shortly, I'm sure. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Jul 25 23:23:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q3NgRM008342 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:23:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q3KFYF003244 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:20:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q3K7lk010449; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:20:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q3K3lk010405 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:20:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20j0.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.96] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bow1x-0000K1-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:20:01 -0700 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040725085157.0221b980@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:54:05 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200407241801.i6OI0vfB058598@net.indra.com> References: <200407241801.i6OI0vfB058598@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 01:01 PM 7/24/2004, you wrote: >From: "Molly Boone" >Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Arthur > >I liked it too I just did a mental suspend on the costuming and watched the >rest for the sheer pleasure. The other option (which is how I handled >Knight's tale) is to simply look at the costuming and go "well it IS a spoof >framed from a Chaucer Allegory, why not?" It isn't as if Hollyweird knows >any better. > >Molly We might have enjoyed it despite costuming if it had possessed any historicity at all. Or if it had purported to be a fantasy. But the makers were claiming an historical basis for the film. Granted that was an historic hypotheses. Again, we could have accepted that if the rest of the film had conformed to the time and place it was supposedly set in. Pierre and Sandy "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 00:14:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q4ElRM008699 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:14:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q4EBYF006330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:14:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q4E7lk039331; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:14:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f41.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.91]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q4E6lk039267 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:14:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:14:00 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.9 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:14:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.9] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:14:00 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2004 04:14:00.0393 (UTC) FILETIME=[FA6FAB90:01C472C6] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: holding up hose, medieval was: poet shirt / belts X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Cynthia Virtue >My main question about these images is that it's only men with naked >chests which show the big bunchy roll around the waist -- it's not >indicated under the clothing of men whose tunics are on. There's a >graceful line at the waist on men who are fully dressed. I will say that with my breeches (what other folks call "braies", I don't get any bulging in the line of the short and cote. The points hang down from the bracegirdle (Breech-girdle) and these hold up my hosen. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 00:34:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q4Y0RM008975 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:34:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q4XKYF007654 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:33:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q4X8lk049456; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:33:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q4X3lk049327 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:33:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.144.149]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6Q4WX8E020602 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:32:47 +1000 Message-ID: <003101c472c9$8cf3d700$9590d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] princess seams/sideless + oddity Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:08:00 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Netherton" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] princess seams/sideless + oddity > > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, otsisto wrote: > > > Is it just me or does Fortuna have a face on the back of her head or > > is it hair that looks like a face? (Her hat makes me think she was the > > original cone head. :) > > Yes, Fortune is two-faced. Though I'm sure somewhere there's someone who > will use this as documentation for faces-on-the-backs-of-heads. > > --Robin It's obviously one of those things like a little while ago there was a woman who found she had a human jaw (with teeth and all) in her abdominal cavity, it was part of her twin which had been absorbed fairly early on in the pregnancy. Obviously the same thing is happening here this woman had a twin and all that has remained of her twin is the face. (tongue very definitely in cheek) Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 01:23:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q5NWRM009307 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:23:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q5MVYF010894 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:22:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q5MOlk076044; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:22:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q5MMlk075989 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:22:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21750 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:27:07 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:27:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: holding up hose, medieval was: poet shirt / belts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 25 Jul 2004, Marc Carlson wrote: > >From: Cynthia Virtue > >My main question about these images is that it's only men with naked > >chests which show the big bunchy roll around the waist -- it's not > >indicated under the clothing of men whose tunics are on. There's a > >graceful line at the waist on men who are fully dressed. > > I will say that with my breeches (what other folks call "braies", I > don't get any bulging in the line of the short and cote. The points > hang down from the bracegirdle (Breech-girdle) and these hold up my > hosen. A few years ago at Kalamazoo, in one of the DISTAFF sessions, some people from the living history group La Belle Compagnie described their experiments and research on materials for braies-belts (which I'd assume is the same as the breech-girdle Marc describes). They tested fingerloop braid, tabletweaving, leather, sprang, maybe a couple of other types of cording and such. The primary purpose was to see what materials held up the braies best, but I think they might have been testing them with hosen attached as well. The men in the company wore the different variations and reported back on which ones were most comfortable, didn't stretch or constrict too much, didn't require too much adjustment during the day, etc. The winner: a sprang belt. (What made that interesting was that the one extant surviving braies-belt is sprang. That was from a somewhat geographically removed find -- the Nubian bishop, I think? -- but it's an interesting concordance nonetheless.) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 02:27:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q6RpRM019501 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 02:27:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q6PrYF014509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:25:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q6Pflk008999; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:25:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q6Pclk008820 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:25:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.146.116]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6Q6PJW4005164 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:25:22 +1000 Message-ID: <000b01c472d9$47d7a100$7492d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <072120041929.3189.40FEC4190006182500000C752200763704050C010C0E0A9FA19B020E9F030E9D@comcast.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:22:10 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:29 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie > Actually the first play done at White Hall, Judi is in that scene and I believe the gown is white. Been a while since I've seen it and she gets almost no screen time as they are concentrating on Paltrow and Finnes. > Molly Well I recently (mid June) watched it about 5 times over for a Uni. assignment, to my recollection Judi Dench is in 3 scenes 2 have already been mentioned but the third is when Wessex presents his bride to the Queen at Whitehall, Shakespeare trails along disguised as Viola's country cousin Wilhemina, and the Queen tells Wessex that Viola has "been plucked" I can't remember what she wore though Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 02:51:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q6pkRM028434 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 02:51:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q6o5YF015828 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:50:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q6o3lk022348; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:50:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from BAY0-HMR04.phx.gbl (bay0-hmr04.bay0.hotmail.com [65.54.241.203]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q6nxlk022251 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:50:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from luann_mason@msn.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.168.110]) by BAY0-HMR04.phx.gbl with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:49:53 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:49:53 -0700 Received: from 4.178.174.46 by bay3-dav6.bay3.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:49:53 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.178.174.46] X-Originating-Email: [luann_mason@msn.com] X-Sender: luann_mason@msn.com From: "LuAnn Mason" To: "Historical Costume" References: <072120041929.3189.40FEC4190006182500000C752200763704050C010C0E0A9FA19B020E9F030E9D@comcast.net> <000b01c472d9$47d7a100$7492d6cb@ewalpole> Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:49:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.00.0011.1200 Seal-Send-Time: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:49:51 -0700 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2004 06:49:53.0366 (UTC) FILETIME=[C13E1760:01C472DC] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6Q6pkRM028434 Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: Elizabeth Walpole To: Historical Costume Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:29 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie > Actually the first play done at White Hall, Judi is in that scene and I believe the gown is white. Been a while since I've seen it and she gets almost no screen time as they are concentrating on Paltrow and Finnes. > Molly Well I recently (mid June) watched it about 5 times over for a Uni. assignment, to my recollection Judi Dench is in 3 scenes 2 have already been mentioned but the third is when Wessex presents his bride to the Queen at Whitehall, Shakespeare trails along disguised as Viola's country cousin Wilhemina, and the Queen tells Wessex that Viola has "been plucked" I can't remember what she wore though It was green, I believe.... Been awhile since I watched it, but I remember the deep emerald color.... LuAnn ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 03:18:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q7IIRM005107 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:18:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q7GdYF017364 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:16:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q7Gblk036695; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:16:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q7GXlk036602 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:16:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004072607162701600odv6fe>; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:16:27 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] New Queen Elizabeth Barbie Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 00:15:44 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000b01c472d9$47d7a100$7492d6cb@ewalpole> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That is the "Peacock" Gown ----- Original Message ----- Well I recently (mid June) watched it about 5 times over for a Uni. assignment, to my recollection Judi Dench is in 3 scenes 2 have already been mentioned but the third is when Wessex presents his bride to the Queen at Whitehall, Shakespeare trails along disguised as Viola's country cousin Wilhemina, and the Queen tells Wessex that Viola has "been plucked" I can't remember what she wore though Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 04:55:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q8tnRM007042 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:55:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q8tFYF022520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 02:55:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q8tClk087149; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 02:55:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q8t8lk087105 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 02:55:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:53:54 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] Thread-Index: AcRxLhdrGZLCBN6jQwGLuGZbgRiMpgBv4wxQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I have just recently had this pointed out to me because one > of the costume experts I know has been being very patient > (much more so than I am) with a member of my group who needs > reassurance constantly. She seems to have to check every > little detail with someone: is this button OK or is it too > big? would this color trim have been used with this color > outfit? should I put a green tassel or a blue one on this > accessory? I have a variation of the problem with someone I know through a group I'm in - they ask all those sorts of questions, and completely fail to listen to or understand the answer.... but nod and smale an say "yes" while you're answering their questions so you have no way fo knowing if you're getting throuh to them or not. Aaaaaaargh! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 05:26:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6Q9Q2RM010626 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 05:26:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q9GWYF023775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:16:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q9GVlk098220; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:16:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q9GSlk098184 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:16:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:15:26 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] men's bathing costume To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBE@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] men's bathing costume Thread-Index: AcRyv+WUfbQngstlQti+jAX6Gfr3AwAMQ1aQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > A cute men's bathing costume is available on ebay right now. > Striped, sleeveless, with buttons on one shoulder. The skirt > is striped but the undershorts are plain colored. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=52383&item=811997 1485&rd=1 Thanks for posting the link. ANd what great colours for a bathing suit! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 06:21:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QALIRM011072 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:21:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QAKiYF026746 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:20:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QAKdlk030679; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:20:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp100.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp100.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.78]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6QAKalk030618 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:20:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO 39jz301) (nicolaa@rogers.com@69.195.103.178 with login) by smtp100.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 2004 10:20:30 -0000 Message-ID: <005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:20:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > I have a variation of the problem with someone I know through a group > I'm in - they ask all those sorts of questions, and completely fail to > listen to or understand the answer.... but nod and smale an say "yes" > while you're answering their questions so you have no way fo knowing if > you're getting throuh to them or not. Or worse than this--someone comes to you to ask advice on clothing. You spend significant time with them showing them books or talking with them. They then go ahead and go something completely different (or what they wanted to do all along), with the exception that they're now telling everyone YOU helped them Argggh! Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 06:22:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QAMvRM011084 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:22:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QAL4YF026774 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:21:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QAL4lk030889; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:21:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QAKxlk030764 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 04:20:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f7a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.122]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AE7B5EE04B for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003201c472fa$42486e10$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000b01c46cc7$f9b22570$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <4f0c1b1204072518231e1ee889@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:21:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "heather meadows" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Xenias weddingdress > Bjarne - where did you get that glorious silk? > > Her dress is so stunning, I was showing it around the office and > everyone was drooling, and we make lots of wedding dresses! > > .heather. Hi Heather, Well in Copenhagen there are some fabric shops called Stof 2000. Stof is fabric. It is mostly polyester things they have, but lately they have started to have more and more silk fabrics. This fabric costed about 80 dollars a meter so it was a find in deed. The lady actually had desided on an other fabric in another shop, but she agreed on this one when we found it. It was just "last chance to find something else" Bjarne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 08:25:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QCPaRM012033 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:25:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QCOuYF003917 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:24:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QCOolk095522; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:24:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QCOllk095419 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:24:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m36.in-tch.com [216.166.191.36]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6QCOVM04622 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:24:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4104F8F5.9040503@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:28:37 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> <005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> In-Reply-To: <005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Why am I suddenly envisioning little disclaimer-tags that act the reverse of manufacturers tags? "This outfit NOT made by....NOT done with the assistance of....if it fits badly, don't call, it's not my fault...." ;-D --sue Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > Greetings-- > > >>I have a variation of the problem with someone I know through a group >>I'm in - they ask all those sorts of questions, and completely fail to >>listen to or understand the answer.... but nod and smale an say "yes" >>while you're answering their questions so you have no way fo knowing if >>you're getting throuh to them or not. > > > Or worse than this--someone comes to you to ask advice on clothing. You > spend significant time with them showing them books or talking with them. > They then go ahead and go something completely different (or what they > wanted to do all along), with the exception that they're now telling > everyone YOU helped them > > Argggh! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 09:16:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QDGeRM012284 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:16:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q9k5YF025080 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:46:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q9jxlk013059; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:45:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mwinf0301.wanadoo.fr (smtp3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6Q9julk013000 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 03:45:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from liara@wanadoo.fr) Received: from mathilde (AMontsouris-151-1-27-170.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr [82.123.24.170]) by mwinf0301.wanadoo.fr (SMTP Server) with SMTP id 026C64007EE for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:45:50 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <01a801c472f5$ac36e810$aa187b52@mathilde> From: "Mathilde Bartholin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407250036.45057.cathy@thyrsus.com><4103C5D0.F9FDC91@charter.net> <200407251152.49500.cathy@thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:48:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, the white outfit from the 5th Element was made by Jean-Paul Gaultier, French haute couture designer... Maybe Guinevere had a kind of visionary sight of what would be fashionable a few centuries later ;) Mathilde ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 5:52 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur > On Sunday 25 July 2004 10:38 am, Joe Robertson wrote: > > Perhaps the two movies shared the same costume designer, or at least > > Arthur's costume designer had just retured from a 5th element > > experience, enhanced and driven by a little peyote (or gobs of it). > > Maybe the director was there, too. > > Food for thought... > > I suppose the same designer could have been involved, or the designer for > "Arthur" could have been inspired by "Fifth Element". However, "Fifth > Element" came out in 1995, so it's unlikely anybody "had just returned' from > that experience to working on Arthur. :-) > > -- > Cathy Raymond _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 09:41:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QDfrRM012492 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:41:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QDfMYF009381 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:41:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QDfKlk038556; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:41:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m27.mx.aol.com (imo-m27.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QDfGlk038484 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:41:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1e0.263cb4b7 (18251) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:41:08 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <1e0.263cb4b7.2e3663f4@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:41:08 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] men's bathing costume To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/26/2004 5:17:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, Teddy@mdx.ac.uk writes: Thanks for posting the link. ANd what great colours for a bathing suit! Yes, I thought of you, Teddy? Have you started yours yet? Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 09:42:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QDgJRM012495 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:42:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QDeVYF009265 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:40:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QDeLlk037938; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:40:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m16.mx.aol.com (imo-m16.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.206]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QDeGlk037837 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:40:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.126.467e7349 (18251) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:40:07 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <126.467e7349.2e3663b7@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:40:07 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] men's bathing costume To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/25/2004 3:05:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, vintage@shore.net writes: A cute men's bathing costume is available on ebay right now. Striped, sleeveless, with buttons on one shoulder. The skirt is striped but the undershorts are plain colored. Neat-O. Whoever buys it ought to make a pattern from it. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 09:44:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QDiHRM012504 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:44:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QDgMYF009489 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:42:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QDgMlk039207; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:42:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QDgGlk039156 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 07:42:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24568 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:47:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:47:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! In-Reply-To: <200407252313.15010.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 25 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > On Saturday 24 July 2004 1:21 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > > Sure. Though it strikes me as pointless to wear a "symbolic sidelss > > > surcoat" in the *exact same color* as one's gown. If it's symbolic, > > > why make it hard to see? > > > > It helps to remember that no one was actually *wearing* this, so that > > point of view never enters into it. The symbolic conversation exists only > > between artist and viewer, and does not take into account the > > (hypothetical) concerns of the (nonexistent) wearer of the clothing. By > > applying the surcote image, the artist was using "code," and it didn't > > matter if the result made sense from a fashion standpoint. > > I wasn't *talking* about "from a fashion standpoint", Robin. If it's > hard to ascertain whether a figure in a miniature is wearing a surcoat > or not, the whole corpus of symbolism involved in *depicting* the > figure in a surcoat gets lost. Sorry; I was thrown by your original question, which was phrased in terms of choices made in "wearing" a gown, not "painting" a gown. I thought it might be possible that you were thinking primarily of what a real woman would choose to wear, because I often hear people (even on this list!) assume that a work of art is an exact depiction of clothing worn in life, regardless of the nature of the art -- and I've learned that it's often important to establish the difference between wearing and painting, before going on to discuss the issues involved in the painters' decisions. I truly did not mean to be condescending. (I suspect there were perhaps some people reading this conversation who needed that point made explicit, even if you did not!) Given that we've got that established, I think what's fouling us up here is the quality of your monitor image. The two highlight lines are quite clear in the image I see: the one closest to us is defined by a well-defined single-line highlight, a single-line shadow, and a broader highlighted area on the adjacent bust surface, with no other folding/shadows to confuse. As I'm seeing it, it could not be mistaken for "a fold or shadow," which is what you said it looks like on your screen. (I frankly don't even think it could be a seam, as was originally proposed, as this artist seems to paint seams with a single fine darker line, no highlight line.) Of course it might be *my* monitor that's off-true (I haven't seen the original or even a paper reproduction), but I think that it's more likely to lose that kind of detail than to gain it. >From your description -- > Never having tried to paint minatures with period pigments, I cannot > determine whether the "two highlighed lines" would have created a > convincing surcoat effect when the painting is new. It's also > relevant that my monitor tends to show things darker than they are, > and I can barely detect the lines in question (unfortunately, I don't > have access to a better copy of the image we're discussing). -- I think there might be less of a question for you about the reading of the image if you saw the lines as clearly as I did. You also wondered whether a miniaturist (as opposed to a sculptor) would use the same color for both surcote and undergown. Actually, there are plenty of examples of overgown/undergown combinations in the same colors (I just footnoted a couple in a paper I was writing, but focusing about 50 years earlier, so not the same styles, I'm afraid). Yes, it's always struck me as odd from a costume standpoint, but they're certainly in the artwork. Whether they reflect artistic decision or real-life practice, I don't know, but the idea of a same-color overgown isn't so weird as to get my antennae up here. I think the artist probably had reasons for not making the plastron white that, in his eye, overruled any perceived benefit of a contrast. That might have been a practical reason (say, because there was already a blue layer down before he decided to "create" a surcote), or it might have been iconographic (because he wanted to use the "blue robe" imagery as well as the surcote imagery, or because he wanted to contrast the spiritual with the more worldly implication of fur), or for some other reason. Since it was also within the range of acceptable practice to paint the same color for under- and overgown, there may not have been any loss of meaning for the "surcote" imagery even without the depiction of fur. Of course, that's assuming that the viewer sees the lines as clearly as I'm seeing them. Naturally it wouldn't work if they're muddy, which -- I gather -- is how they look for you. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 10:21:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QEL8RM012752 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:21:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QEKTYF012640 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:20:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QEJplk066061; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:19:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QEJklk065872 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:19:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:18:23 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] men's bathing costume To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFC2@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] men's bathing costume Thread-Index: AcRzFu3WCWYSSplsRSq4eFnhT5NkFQABFmGg content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > ANd what great colours for a bathing suit! > Yes, I thought of you, Teddy? Have you started yours yet? Not yet, Ann. I haven't even found fabric for it yet..... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 12:51:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QGpkRM014007 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:51:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QGomYF029713 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:50:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QGoilk090876; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:50:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QGoXll090710 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:50:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-213.sonic.net [209.148.112.213]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6QGoPhQ028268 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:50:26 -0700 Message-ID: <41053786.5040203@lavoltapress.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:55:34 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> <005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> In-Reply-To: <005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO As long as the historic reenactment culture stresses "correcting misapprehensions" (which phrase implies everyone but the person using it is per se misinformed), laughs at costumes worn or sold by others as a social game, and generally uses "accuracy" as an excuse to put people down--well, then reencators who care about social acceptance will primarily focus on avoiding put-downs. They may buy the group's brand-name products, they may drop the names of the group's brand-name members--but they still won't know or care much about what they wear. It's always struck me as ironic that some of the people who talk most about "primary sources" and "doing your own research" disagree most strongly with everything anyone else finds in primary sources that disagrees with what _they_ found. It's easy to see why some people figure research is not worth the bother. Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming Two New Books of 1870s and 1880s Patterns! http://www.lavoltapress.com Chilren's Literature Winner of the 2004 Bulwer-Lytton Contest http://www.bulwer-lytton.com Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: >Greetings-- > > > >>I have a variation of the problem with someone I know through a group >>I'm in - they ask all those sorts of questions, and completely fail to >>listen to or understand the answer.... but nod and smale an say "yes" >>while you're answering their questions so you have no way fo knowing if >>you're getting throuh to them or not. >> >> > >Or worse than this--someone comes to you to ask advice on clothing. You >spend significant time with them showing them books or talking with them. >They then go ahead and go something completely different (or what they >wanted to do all along), with the exception that they're now telling >everyone YOU helped them > >Argggh! > >Susan > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 13:56:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QHuARM014566 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:56:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QHtTYF008317 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:55:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QHtIlk048002; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:55:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mx6.wvu.edu (mx6.wvu.edu [157.182.140.68]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QHtElk047877 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:55:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khoover@wvu.edu) Received: from WVUGW01.wvu.edu (wvugw01.wvu.edu [157.182.215.110]) by mx6.wvu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QHt7pL018791 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:55:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from khoover@wvu.edu) Received: from WVUDOM1-MTA by WVUGW01.wvu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:55:07 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:54:45 -0400 From: "Kathy Hoover" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Congratulations Fran! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Chilren's Literature Winner of the 2004 Bulwer-Lytton Contest http://www.bulwer-lytton.com On this gray and drizzly Monday in the hills of the extended Ohio Valley, I noticed this MOST interesting addition to your sig, not that the body of the message wasn't worth reading, ruminating on, and saving as well, and just had to tell you that this this is a fabulous addition to your already extensive list of accomplishments; it is so dissimilar from the usual, routine list of awards we hear tell of and must compliment the owners for-- it cannot help but raise the eyebrow of whomever is reading your resume in the future! Kathy Hoover Who has a bit of a way to go.... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 14:07:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QI7MRM014707 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:07:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QI6hYF010270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:06:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QI6flk057618; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:06:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QI6cll057571 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:06:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-213.sonic.net [209.148.112.213]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6QI6asM024506 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:06:36 -0700 Message-ID: <41054960.6030604@lavoltapress.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:11:44 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Congratulations Fran! References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks! I've read enough of the real thing in Victorian women's magazines to choke a horse--that is, of course, providing it were a literate horse and providing it were female or at least interested in the kinds of things that are supposed to interest women, that is Victorian women, of course now most are too busy with careers to hand-net fish boilers or hand-crochet dog muzzles (two needlework patterns I've actually seen), but what I am really talking about is the fiction that appears in the same magazines which you can often find as bound volumes, of course not all the installments of an exciting serial are always in the same annual volume, but anyway you know what I mean. Fran http://www.lavoltapress.com Kathy Hoover wrote: >>Chilren's Literature Winner of the 2004 Bulwer-Lytton Contest >> >> >http://www.bulwer-lytton.com > > >On this gray and drizzly Monday in the hills of the extended Ohio >Valley, I noticed this MOST interesting addition to your sig, not that >the body of the message wasn't worth reading, ruminating on, and saving >as well, and just had to tell you that this this is a fabulous addition >to your already extensive list of accomplishments; it is so dissimilar >from the usual, routine list of awards we hear tell of and must >compliment the owners for-- it cannot help but raise the eyebrow of >whomever is reading your resume in the future! > >Kathy Hoover >Who has a bit of a way to go.... > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 14:10:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QIAbRM014724 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:10:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QI8mYF010650 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:08:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QI8mlk059384; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:08:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m20.mx.aol.com (imo-m20.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QI8glk059222 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:08:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.12b.47180401 (4529) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:08:30 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <12b.47180401.2e36a29e@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:08:30 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Congratulations Fran! To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/26/2004 2:07:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, fran@lavoltapress.com writes: I've read enough of the real thing in Victorian women's magazines to choke a horse--that is, of course, providing it were a literate horse and providing it were female or at least interested in the kinds of things that are supposed to interest women, that is Victorian women, of course now most are too busy with careers to hand-net fish boilers or hand-crochet dog muzzles (two needlework patterns I've actually seen), but what I am really talking about is the fiction that appears in the same magazines which you can often find as bound volumes, of course not all the installments of an exciting serial are always in the same annual volume, but anyway you know what I mean. Pause to draw a DEEEEEP breath! Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 14:17:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QIHQRM014779 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:17:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QIGNYF012451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:16:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QIGLlk066172; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:16:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QIGEll066100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:16:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-213.sonic.net [209.148.112.213]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6QIGCYI027785 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:16:12 -0700 Message-ID: <41054BA1.2010807@lavoltapress.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:21:21 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Congratulations Fran! References: <12b.47180401.2e36a29e@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <12b.47180401.2e36a29e@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey, I'm not even at the Henry James level yet. Some of his sentences are a full page long--granted, a mass-market paperback page, but still. Fran http://www.lavoltapress.com >Pause to draw a DEEEEEP breath! >Ann Wass >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 15:02:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QJ2fRM015276 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:02:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QJ29YF020054 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:02:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QJ1elk003213; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:01:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com (imo-m15.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.205]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QJ11lk002591 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:01:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.87.1187d777 (3948) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:00:44 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <87.1187d777.2e36aedc@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:00:44 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Arthur To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/26/2004 5:46:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, liara@wanadoo.fr writes: > Actually, the white outfit from the 5th Element was made by Jean-Paul > Gaultier, French haute couture designer And that outfit MADE SENSE within the context of the film....and with what Gaultier is "known" for in fashion. "Arthur" is just hooey.....like "A Knight's tale". Knight and armor films for people who don't like Knight and armor films. I don't get it. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 15:19:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QJJ6RM015418 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:19:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QJISYF021526 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:18:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QJIKlk014419; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:18:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from atmapp01.siteprotect.com (atmapp01.siteprotect.com [64.41.126.208]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QJIFlk014314 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:18:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cschmitt@genteelarts.com) Received: from atmapp01.siteprotect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by atmapp01.siteprotect.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6QJIA119959 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:18:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:18:10 -0500 Message-Id: <200407261918.i6QJIA119959@atmapp01.siteprotect.com> Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Mime-Version: 1.0 From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Congratulations Fran! Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: AtMail Corp 3.64 - http://webbasedemail.com/ X-Origin: 65.164.18.144 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Congratulations, Fran, although I think this response is even better! Just one small favor: could you give us a warning next time so I don't have to clean iced tea off my monitor again? :-) Carolann Schmitt www.genteelarts.com Still hoping Snoopy will win the award one year.:-) On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:11 , Lavolta Press sent: >Thanks! I've read enough of the real thing in Victorian women's >magazines to choke a horse--that is, of course, providing it were a >literate horse and providing it were female or at least interested in >the kinds of things that are supposed to interest women, that is >Victorian women, of course now most are too busy with careers to >hand-net fish boilers or hand-crochet dog muzzles (two needlework >patterns I've actually seen), but what I am really talking about is the >fiction that appears in the same magazines which you can often find as >bound volumes, of course not all the installments of an exciting serial >are always in the same annual volume, but anyway you know what I mean. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 15:56:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QJuXRM015700 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:56:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QJseYF025660 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:54:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QJsblk043947; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:54:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QJsXll043891 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:54:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6QJ2vtY032329 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:02:57 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410555F9.10806@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:05:29 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> <005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> <41053786.5040203@lavoltapress.com> In-Reply-To: <41053786.5040203@lavoltapress.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lavolta Press wrote: > It's always struck me as ironic that some of the people who talk most > about "primary sources" and "doing your own research" disagree most > strongly with everything anyone else finds in primary sources that > disagrees with what _they_ found. It's easy to see why some people > figure research is not worth the bother. Isn't this sort of wrangling also what professional academics do? Try to find a new (and often unlikely) spin on established theories? (and congrats on the B-L!) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 16:56:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QKucRM016199 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:56:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QKtrYF002322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:55:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QKtglk095012; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:55:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ns3.linuxwebnet.com (ns3.linuxwebnet.com [216.133.76.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6QKtelk094915 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:55:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from judymitch@oldwaylane.net) Received: (qmail 17934 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2004 21:29:48 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.249.87.191.dial1.washington2.level3.net (HELO oldwaylane.net) (4.249.87.191) by shada.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 2004 21:29:48 -0000 Message-ID: <41056F09.1080105@oldwaylane.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:52:25 -0400 From: Judy Mitchell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <003101c472c9$8cf3d700$9590d6cb@ewalpole> In-Reply-To: <003101c472c9$8cf3d700$9590d6cb@ewalpole> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Patterns on CD X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey folks, This was announced over on the LotR list, but since I think more people would be interested over here I have permission to pass the info on. Apparently the patterns on this CD range from 1956 back to 1854. Oh, and Joy Emery is from the University nad connected to the CD project, not the one who posted the note on the costume list which is why I left her contact info. -Judy Mitchell -------- Original Message -------- The U of Rhode Island has amassed the largest pattern collection in the world & is selling CD copies. See: http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=2698 for more info. The pattern CD has the images of the garment and the pattern layout from the back of the envelope. The full-size pattern pieces have not been scanned. You can use the pattern layout to scale up the pieces to the appropriate size or use them as a guide for draping the garment. For more information see the website www.uri.edu/library/special_collections/COPA Thanks for your interest. If you have other questions, please let me know. Sincerely, Joy Emery Director, Commercial Pattern Archive University of Rhode Island Library Special Collections 15 Lippitt Rd. Kingston RI, 02881 Email:jemery@uri.edu Phone: 401-874-2713 fax: 401-874-4608 Visit us at www.uri.edu/library/special_collections /copa/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 16:59:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QKxERM016212 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:59:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QKwZYF002579 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:58:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QKwYlk097303; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:58:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QKwQlk097116 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:58:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f7a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.122]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E40E926286C for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:58:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001601c47353$4d5a4d60$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:58:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] congratulations Fran X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Me two must congratulate you with the fine price you have won! How wonderfull for you. Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Hurrahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 17:07:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QL7DRM016292 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:07:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QL5DYF003328 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:05:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QL5Blk003301; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:05:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.42]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QL54lk003202 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:05:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from purplkat@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.15]) by mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I1H008UP97866@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [167.206.5.53] (Forwarded-For: [167.206.224.2]) by mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mshttpd); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:04:21 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:04:21 -0400 From: purplkat@optonline.net Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns on CD To: Historical Costume Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Too bad we can't purchase this as a group. I am seriously looking for a few particular shirt patterns, and would love some *old* dress patterns. Katheryne ----- Original Message ----- From: Judy Mitchell Date: Monday, July 26, 2004 4:52 pm Subject: [h-cost] Patterns on CD > Hey folks, > This was announced over on the LotR list, but since I think more > people would be interested over here I have permission to pass the > infoon. Apparently the patterns on this CD range from 1956 back to > 1854. Oh, > and Joy Emery is from the University nad connected to the CD project, > not the one who posted the note on the costume list which is why I > lefther contact info. > > -Judy Mitchell > > -------- Original Message -------- > The U of Rhode Island has amassed the largest pattern collection > in the > world & is selling CD copies. See: > http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=2698 for more info. > > The pattern CD has the images of the garment and the pattern layout > from the back of the envelope. The full-size pattern pieces have not > been scanned. You can use the pattern layout to scale up the > pieces to > the appropriate size or use them as a guide for draping the garment. > For more information see the website > www.uri.edu/library/special_collections/COPA > Thanks for your interest. If you have other questions, please let me > know. > Sincerely, > > Joy Emery > Director, Commercial Pattern Archive > University of Rhode Island Library > Special Collections > 15 Lippitt Rd. > Kingston RI, 02881 > Email:jemery@uri.edu > Phone: 401-874-2713 fax: 401-874-4608 > Visit us at > www.uri.edu/library/special_collections > > > > /copa/ > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 17:21:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QLL1RM016408 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:21:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QLJ6YF004918 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:19:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QLJ4lk015136; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:19:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out003.verizon.net (out003pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QLIvlk015046 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:18:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out003.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040726211856.PAPG26805.out003.verizon.net@brandyscomp>; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:18:56 -0500 Message-ID: <004001c47356$2ae26bc0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historic Costume List" , "SCA Costumes" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:18:58 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out003.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:18:56 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Split Sleeves X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6QLL1RM016408 Status: RO Hi All- Taking a break from my frantic sewing, preparing for my booth opening in August. I had a quick question about the double sleeves that seem to be popular in the 14th and 15th c. I am attaching lace sleeves and skirt to a bodice (totally not period, I know) and want to be able to take my arms out of the sleeves, so I don't catch them on everything. And, of course, I ran into a problem: where do I put the slit in the sleeves so they hang properly when not in use and still look good when being worn? I have gone through a few books, and it seems that the slits were sometimes put under the sleeve, in the sides or at the top of the sleeves. I just don't know what the use of the different places would be. I will be putting a cuff on the sleeve, if that makes a difference. Thank you, knowledgeable friends (in advance). B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 17:22:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QLM1RM016415 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:22:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QLLEYF005134 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:21:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QLLBlk016908; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:21:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav1.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.105]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QLL9lk016811 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:21:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:20:30 -0700 Received: from 66.130.163.130 by bay9-dav1.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:20:29 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [66.130.163.130] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <0A6AD398-DE62-11D8-BBE6-000A9567E116@soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost] P&P (was Re: Arthur) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:22:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2004 21:20:30.0359 (UTC) FILETIME=[60EAAA70:01C47356] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Well, she's got at least one more dodgy costume coming up in Pride and > Prejudice. http://www.thezreview.co.uk/news3/prideandprejudice.htm. Ouch, that's wrinkled! Couldn't they at least IRON the costumes? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 17:47:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QLlERM016582 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:47:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QLkdYF008436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:46:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QLkZlk038214; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:46:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QLkXlk038124 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:46:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BpDIg-000DSr-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:46:26 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:45:14 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval was: poet shirt / belts References: <41010986.10102@thibault.org> <+6DZ4FMy1sABJwCf@montgomerie.demon.co.uk> <4102D621.6040109@thibault.org> <410445A7.4080208@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <410445A7.4080208@thibault.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Cynthia Virtue wrote >Jean Waddie wrote: > >> I don't think pourpoints started so early. > >Neither do I. I think there was something else other than a belt, >though. A pourpoint is a highly constructed garment. That's not what I >meant. I didn't mean pourpoints as such, I meant the first precursor of the pourpoint, which holds up hose by going over the shoulders in some way. I think we both mean the same thing. > >> They are wearing braies (underpants) which are very baggy and rolled >>around the waist, and their hose are fixed up to whatever is under >>that roll - for which the simplest solution seems to be a belt. > >My main question about these images is that it's only men with naked >chests which show the big bunchy roll around the waist -- it's not >indicated under the clothing of men whose tunics are on. There's a >graceful line at the waist on men who are fully dressed. > >So I theorize: What if there is a white undertunic of some sort, to >which the hose are tied? If you're hot and you take off your outer >tunic, and you still need to keep your hose on, it might make sense to >roll up that white undertunic around your waist so that your hose stay on. > >And if not a white undertunic, what is the big bunchy thing made of and >why doesn't it show under the overtunic on fully dressed men? > It's a good question, and an issue I hadn't noticed. However, if the idea is that you need something that goes over the shoulders, because men don't have enough hips to hold up hose around the waist, how does it continue to hold them up when you roll it down around the waist? I suppose just the bulk of the roll might make the difference? Also, in order to take something off in the way you theorise, it has to open down the front, which I believe is pretty radical for the 12th century. Assuming it is something substantial enough to call an "undertunic", rather than something more akin to a pair of braces(suspenders). My husband, who has worn 15th century hose with pourpoint, as well as 12th century, chipped in with some practical observations. He reckons the pourpoint attachment only works when hose come up to the waist, and are tied on around the body, so that any movement is around the waist. He says if you attached separate-leg hose to something which goes over your shoulder, when you lift your arms it wants you to lift your leg as well, like a puppet on strings. I agree, that's what happens when you wear a basque with shoulder straps, and suspenders(garter straps?) - but people apparently still wear them, so perhaps the discomfort can be overcome? Just gentle musings. Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 18:20:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QMKsRM016807 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:20:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMK6YF012226 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:20:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMJ1lk064643; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:19:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMHvll063753 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:17:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6QMFHtY001601 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:15:17 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4105830D.10309@thibault.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:17:49 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Split Sleeves References: <004001c47356$2ae26bc0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> In-Reply-To: <004001c47356$2ae26bc0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Brandy Deming wrote: > Hi All- > > Taking a break from my frantic sewing, preparing for my booth opening in August. I had a quick question about the double sleeves that seem to be popular in the 14th and 15th c. > I am attaching lace sleeves and skirt to a bodice (totally not period, I know) and want to be able to take my arms out of the sleeves, so I don't catch them on everything. And, of course, I ran into a problem: where do I put the slit in the sleeves so they hang properly when not in use and still look good when being worn? I have gone through a few books, and it seems that the slits were sometimes put under the sleeve, in the sides or at the top of the sleeves. I just don't know what the use of the different places would be. > I will be putting a cuff on the sleeve, if that makes a difference. Best idea is to make a mock-up of one sleeve and experiment with it on your body. Start with the pictures you can find of where the slits are, and work from there. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 18:34:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QMYVRM016890 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:34:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMXvYF013847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:33:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMXtlk076816; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:33:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMXnlk076747 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:33:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BpE2W-0002ql-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:33:48 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:34:03 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c47360$a76400a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT-Any recommendations for steam iron besides Rowenta? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6QMYVRM016890 Status: RO Hi all, Sorry to clog the airways with this, but my Rowenta has finally bit the big one. It is the 3rd or 4th one I have owned and am ready to try something new. Do any of you have experience with a steam iron you like besides Rowenta. I am hearing really bad things about their customer support. I would also think by now someone would have come up with something comparable for a better price? Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 18:42:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QMgxRM016939 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:42:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMf8YF014659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:41:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMf4lk082132; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:41:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav3.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMf1lk082030 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:41:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:41:33 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.94 by bay1-dav3.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:41:32 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.94] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c47360$a76400a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Any recommendations for steam iron besides Rowenta? Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:40:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jul 2004 22:41:33.0054 (UTC) FILETIME=[B34F09E0:01C47361] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It sounds really dumb but I own a vintage Sears that I bought at an auction. Heavy as all get out and I just keep it clean and use only distilled water in it. I won't buy a new one and I sure won't pay $200 for one that will crap out in a year. My Sears one has lasted me 4 years so far and it has a date on it of 1962. B. eBay V.C. Andrews Books!! Glove Making Book http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- Hi all, Sorry to clog the airways with this, but my Rowenta has finally bit the big one. It is the 3rd or 4th one I have owned and am ready to try something new. Do any of you have experience with a steam iron you like besides Rowenta. I am hearing really bad things about their customer support. I would also think by now someone would have come up with something comparable for a better price? Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 18:50:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QMoVRM016964 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:50:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMnpYF015426 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:49:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMnolk088639; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:49:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QMngll088516 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:49:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-146.sonic.net [209.148.112.146]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6QMndQ8025455 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:49:40 -0700 Message-ID: <41058BB8.2010401@lavoltapress.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:54:48 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns on CD References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've had this CD for awhile. It does not give any pattern pieces per se. For some patterns (not all, if I recall correctly) this CD shows the layout-onto-the-fabric image. Such layouts are not usually to true scale and are often only a roughish drawing of the pieces. Which is all you need to lay out the pattern inside the envelope onto the fabric. However, the CD does actually not give the patterns inside the envelopes. (These, BTW, would have been a lot more time consuming and expensive to put on the CD.) The layout images may be all that is needed to develop the whole pattern from a sloper or whatever, if you have strong pattern development skills. (They are probably not precise/well-scaled enough just to scale up.) From my own correspondence with Joy Emery, I think she is assuming her CD buyers will use the layout images in this way. But the layout images alone are probably not sufficient for people who need to have a pattern rather than developing one. Fran http://www.lavoltapress.com purplkat@optonline.net wrote: >Too bad we can't purchase this as a group. I am seriously looking for a few particular shirt patterns, and would love some *old* dress patterns. > >Katheryne > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Judy Mitchell >Date: Monday, July 26, 2004 4:52 pm >Subject: [h-cost] Patterns on CD > > > >>Hey folks, >> This was announced over on the LotR list, but since I think more >>people would be interested over here I have permission to pass the >>infoon. Apparently the patterns on this CD range from 1956 back to >>1854. Oh, >>and Joy Emery is from the University nad connected to the CD project, >>not the one who posted the note on the costume list which is why I >>lefther contact info. >> >> -Judy Mitchell >> >>-------- Original Message -------- >>The U of Rhode Island has amassed the largest pattern collection >>in the >>world & is selling CD copies. See: >>http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=2698 for more info. >> >>The pattern CD has the images of the garment and the pattern layout >>from the back of the envelope. The full-size pattern pieces have not >>been scanned. You can use the pattern layout to scale up the >>pieces to >>the appropriate size or use them as a guide for draping the garment. >>For more information see the website >>www.uri.edu/library/special_collections/COPA >>Thanks for your interest. If you have other questions, please let me >>know. >>Sincerely, >> >>Joy Emery >>Director, Commercial Pattern Archive >>University of Rhode Island Library >>Special Collections >>15 Lippitt Rd. >>Kingston RI, 02881 >>Email:jemery@uri.edu >>Phone: 401-874-2713 fax: 401-874-4608 >>Visit us at >>www.uri.edu/library/special_collections >> >> >> >>/copa/ >>_______________________________________________ >>h-costume mailing list >>h-costume@mail.indra.com >>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 19:01:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QN1uRM017050 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:01:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QN1GYF016549 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:01:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QN1Elk096990; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:01:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp102.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp102.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.80]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6QN18lk096897 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:01:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO 39jz301) (nicolaa@rogers.com@69.195.101.205 with login) by smtp102.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Jul 2004 23:01:01 -0000 Message-ID: <011601c47364$7245d700$cd65c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk><005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> <41053786.5040203@lavoltapress.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:01:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > It's always struck me as ironic that some of the people who talk most > about "primary sources" and "doing your own research" disagree most > strongly with everything anyone else finds in primary sources that > disagrees with what _they_ found. It's easy to see why some people > figure research is not worth the bother. I find that such people usually have built up a strong repuatation as "the expert" or "the research person", and while they like to encourage research and "looking at primary sources", it's primarily to bolster their own self-importance. In groups where you don't have one person with a monopoly or near-monopoly on research, but instead numerous people with good research skills, you don't get that because you get into a culture of critical examination and challenge early on. No one turns into a deity. Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 19:02:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QN2JRM017062 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:02:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QN1nYF016607 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:01:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QN1mlk097356; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:01:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QN1ill097337 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:01:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-146.sonic.net [209.148.112.146]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6QN1dXA029029 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:01:40 -0700 Message-ID: <41058E88.8070206@lavoltapress.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:06:48 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Any recommendations for steam iron besides Rowenta? References: <000001c47360$a76400a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000001c47360$a76400a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I love my Black & Decker Classic. I got it new but cheap at a local hardware store. When it dies you can just buy a new one. Fran http://www.lavoltapress.com Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: >Hi all, Sorry to clog the airways with this, but my Rowenta has finally bit >the big one. It is the 3rd or 4th one I have owned and am ready to try >something new. > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 19:21:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QNLQRM017303 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:21:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QNKpYF018324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:20:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QNKmlk010757; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:20:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QNKRll010448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:20:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-146.sonic.net [209.148.112.146]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6QNKPbK012386 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:20:26 -0700 Message-ID: <410592EF.2020208@lavoltapress.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:25:35 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> <005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> <41053786.5040203@lavoltapress.com> <410555F9.10806@thibault.org> In-Reply-To: <410555F9.10806@thibault.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Most certainly academics examine established theories and come up with contradictory thories, new theories, etc. They also freely tolerate other people doing it. What I was objecting to is people who say they encourage others to do research, but get upset if anyone finds different evidence than they did or interprets it differently. It is perfectly possible to intellectually disagree strongly with someone, and/or to interpret the same information differently, without becoming emotionally involved, without seeing it as a moral issue, and without seeing it as a question of "winning" or "losing." It is also perfectly possible to feel comfortable with the idea that there is seldom a One Right Answer and that the entire truth about something will probably never be known. For academic research, a certain level of detachment and a certain tolerance of ambiguity are essential. Fran http://www.lavoltapress.com Cynthia Virtue wrote: > Lavolta Press wrote: > >> It's always struck me as ironic that some of the people who talk most >> about "primary sources" and "doing your own research" disagree most >> strongly with everything anyone else finds in primary sources that >> disagrees with what _they_ found. It's easy to see why some people >> figure research is not worth the bother. > > > Isn't this sort of wrangling also what professional academics do? Try > to find a new (and often unlikely) spin on established theories? > > (and congrats on the B-L!) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 19:27:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6QNRQRM017367 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:27:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QNQrYF018898 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:26:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QNQqlk014640; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:26:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6QNQmll014614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:26:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-146.sonic.net [209.148.112.146]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6QNQlSr002979 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:26:47 -0700 Message-ID: <4105946C.4060500@lavoltapress.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:31:56 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk><005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> <41053786.5040203@lavoltapress.com> <011601c47364$7245d700$cd65c345@39jz301> In-Reply-To: <011601c47364$7245d700$cd65c345@39jz301> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I hope so. I also don't like the game of tearing someone down just because they are an established expert, and assuming the "bigger" the person you attack, the "bigger" you make yourself look. BTW, I'm reminded of the time I signed onto another email list, someone asked a question, and I answered it. This gave fits to a member who felt she was the established "expert." What was amazing is that she agreed with everything I'd said. It's just that she felt no one else should be answering questions on the topic at all. Life is too short for this. Fran http://www.lavoltapress.com >In groups where you don't have one person with a monopoly or near-monopoly >on research, but instead numerous people with good research skills, you >don't get that because you get into a culture of critical examination and >challenge early on. No one turns into a deity. > >Susan > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 20:03:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R03aRM017632 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:03:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R02vYF021546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:02:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R02olk036154; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:02:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R02llk036088 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:02:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.111.350b11d7 (2168) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:02:35 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <111.350b11d7.2e36f59b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:02:35 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] P&P (was Re: Arthur) To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/26/2004 5:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, audreybmorin2@hotmail.com writes: > Ouch, that's wrinkled! Couldn't they at least IRON the costumes? > Not to mention the waist being about 4" too low. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 20:16:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R0GnRM017703 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:16:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R0ExYF022350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:14:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R0Ewlk043240; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:14:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R0ERlk042899 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:14:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gia_gavino@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.118 ([204.127.197.118]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004072700142001500itb6be>; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:14:20 +0000 Received: from [24.16.242.58] by 204.127.197.118; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:14:19 +0000 From: gia_gavino@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns on CD Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:14:19 +0000 Message-Id: <072720040014.2099.41059E5A000C51F5000008332200750784010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Z2lhX2dhdmlub0Bjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi! What time period do you consider old? Over many years, I have collected old patterns dating from about the 1940's to current. Are you interested in any particular dresses? I could go through my multiple boxes and send you the pattern #s for what I have... -- Slan go foill Elena (Emer) nic Tighearnaigh -------------- Original message -------------- > Too bad we can't purchase this as a group. I am seriously looking for a few > particular shirt patterns, and would love some *old* dress patterns. > > Katheryne > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Judy Mitchell > Date: Monday, July 26, 2004 4:52 pm > Subject: [h-cost] Patterns on CD > > > Hey folks, > > This was announced over on the LotR list, but since I think more > > people would be interested over here I have permission to pass the > > infoon. Apparently the patterns on this CD range from 1956 back to > > 1854. Oh, > > and Joy Emery is from the University nad connected to the CD project, > > not the one who posted the note on the costume list which is why I > > lefther contact info. > > > > -Judy Mitchell > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > The U of Rhode Island has amassed the largest pattern collection > > in the > > world & is selling CD copies. See: > > http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=2698 for more info. > > > > The pattern CD has the images of the garment and the pattern layout > > from the back of the envelope. The full-size pattern pieces have not > > been scanned. You can use the pattern layout to scale up the > > pieces to > > the appropriate size or use them as a guide for draping the garment. > > For more information see the website > > www.uri.edu/library/special_collections/COPA > > Thanks for your interest. If you have other questions, please let me > > know. > > Sincerely, > > > > Joy Emery > > Director, Commercial Pattern Archive > > University of Rhode Island Library > > Special Collections > > 15 Lippitt Rd. > > Kingston RI, 02881 > > Email:jemery@uri.edu > > Phone: 401-874-2713 fax: 401-874-4608 > > Visit us at > > > www.uri.edu/library/> uri.edu/library/special_collections>special_collections> ry/special_collections> > > > > > > > > /copa/ > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 22:09:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R29BRM018397 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:09:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R23TYF029458 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:03:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R23Qlk005371; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:03:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.netspace.net.au (whirlwind.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.76]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R23Klk005238 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:03:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from stilskin@netspace.net.au) Received: from chris (dialup-a1-9.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.113.246.9]) by mail.netspace.net.au (Postfix) with SMTP id D0003D30FA for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:03:08 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <001001c4737e$6bebb720$09f671cb@chris> From: "Christopher Ballis" To: "Historical Costume" References: <87.1187d777.2e36aedc@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:07:07 +1000 Organization: Australian Costume Supply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Arthur X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO You know, I liked this, I really did, for no reason that makes sense. The story was a hotch-potch of Arthurian elements but then, aren't all Arthurian stories like that by now? If anything, it was more Kennedy Camelot than legendary Camelot, especially with all the noble carry-on over the word freedom. Perhaps I just like the idea of grown men stomping around the countryside chopping people up for no logical reason. The production design and the costume design was all over the place but it worked as a whole. The invasion/retreat chronology was half a century out but who cares? There were far too many homo-erotic shots of grown men looking meaningfully at each-other in much the same way as soap opera actors stare into the middle-distance while awaiting the commerical break. It was nice to see that Lieutenant Hornblower brought along crewman Styles for assistance. Merlin needed a pointy hat with stars on it. That chick! Hell, no one in their right mind goes into battle with three leather thongs and a bit of Kryolan but then, no one in thier right mind would wear a bikini in Britain at ANY time. Still, I liked it, it had spirit, it nodded to most of the Arthurian conventions across all the versions, and there was a vague attempt as heroic-journeying in it, too, -C. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 22:11:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R2BcRM018406 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:11:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R2BBYF000104 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:11:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R2B8lk009978; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:11:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R2B6lk009939 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:11:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-67-101-40-182.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([67.101.40.182] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BpHQl-0001ME-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:11:03 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:58:30 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: holding up hose, medieval was: poet shirt / belts Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 12:27 AM -0500 7/26/04, Robin Netherton wrote: >etc. The winner: a sprang belt. (What made that interesting was that the >one extant surviving braies-belt is sprang. That was from a somewhat >geographically removed find -- the Nubian bishop, I think? -- but it's an >interesting concordance nonetheless.) Yes -- the Nubian bishop. (Just to confirm.) Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 22:31:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R2UxRM018499 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:31:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R2TDYF001403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:29:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R2TClk020194; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:29:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R2T0ll020083 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:29:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6R2UX2T024774 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:30:36 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Arthur Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:35:38 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <87.1187d777.2e36aedc@aol.com> <001001c4737e$6bebb720$09f671cb@chris> In-Reply-To: <001001c4737e$6bebb720$09f671cb@chris> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407262235.38389.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Monday 26 July 2004 10:07 pm, Christopher Ballis wrote: > You know, I liked this, I really did, for no reason that makes sense. > > The story was a hotch-potch of Arthurian elements but then, aren't all > Arthurian stories like that by now? > > If anything, it was more Kennedy Camelot than legendary Camelot, especially > with all the noble carry-on over the word freedom. True enough. I have to admit it was an original turn on the mythos; I never saw the Arthurian myth played as a buddy movie before. You could almost call it "On the Road to Badon Hill." :-) > Perhaps I just like the idea of grown men stomping around the countryside > chopping people up for no logical reason. > > The production design and the costume design was all over the place but it > worked as a whole. > > The invasion/retreat chronology was half a century out but who cares? > > There were far too many homo-erotic shots of grown men looking meaningfully > at each-other in much the same way as soap opera actors stare into the > middle-distance while awaiting the commerical break. There were lots of meaningful looks that weren't homoerotic, too; I snarked to my husband that you can't complain about the script being bad, because they seemed not to have used one. :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 22:54:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R2scRM018616 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:54:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R2s6YF003123 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:54:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R2s5lk034465; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:54:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp103.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp103.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.81]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6R2s1lk034400 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:54:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO 39jz301) (nicolaa@rogers.com@69.195.101.205 with login) by smtp103.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 2004 02:53:55 -0000 Message-ID: <004201c47384$f4bed180$cd65c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk><005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> <41053786.5040203@lavoltapress.com><011601c47364$7245d700$cd65c345@39jz301> <4105946C.4060500@lavoltapress.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:53:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > I hope so. I also don't like the game of tearing someone down just > because they are an established expert, and assuming the "bigger" the > person you attack, the "bigger" you make yourself look. Bigger fool, maybe :-) It's also important to separate "attack" from "spirited debate" or "critical discussion." In the latter, the intent is to arrive at a better understanding at whatever's being studied, and the more open you are (or willing to at least understand where the other person's coming from), the better chance all participants have in advancing knowledge. In an attack, the only intent is to make oneself look better than the other person. (Attacks often have healthy ad hominem components .....) > BTW, I'm reminded of the time I signed onto another email list, someone > asked a question, and I answered it. This gave fits to a member who > felt she was the established "expert." What was amazing is that she > agreed with everything I'd said. It's just that she felt no one else > should be answering questions on the topic at all. Yep, I've run into those folks, who have built up happy little fiefdoms as "the expert." You know, I think it's a phase a lot of us go through, actually. There's often a certain point when everyone around you has told you that you are the go-to person for X or Y, and then suddenly another person pops up who knows as much (or more). How much the period of panic over losing your "status" lasts will tell the tale. Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 23:22:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R3M7RM018719 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:22:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R3LZYF004788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:21:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R3LTlk049906; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:21:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net (starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.227]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R3LOlk049877 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:21:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.60.45.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.60.45] helo=HELENPINTO) by starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BpIWo-0005tU-Ed for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 20:21:23 -0700 Message-ID: <020e01c47388$c7b06830$2d3c9b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c47360$a76400a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> <41058E88.8070206@lavoltapress.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Any recommendations for steam iron besides Rowenta? Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:21:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9efd2a73794344f4065fab0d90f679a8dff350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.60.45 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've been very happy for almost ten years with a Sunbeam Steam Master. It has a mist sprayer, variable amounts of steam, an extra shot of steam, and is made for tap water (although I use distilled water anyway). It is also self-cleaning. It has a teflon sole plate and lots of vents, and it's a good weight. The only annoying feature is the auto shut-off which cuts in after less than 5 min of inactivity. But it doesn't spit or leak hardly at all, and it cost about $35 US. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Jul 26 23:56:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R3uHRM018883 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:56:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R3sLYF007357 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:54:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R3sIlk069262; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:54:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R3sFll069235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:54:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6R3tsKm029248 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:55:55 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:00:59 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407270000.59244.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=PLING_QUERY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Monday 26 July 2004 9:47 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Sun, 25 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > On Saturday 24 July 2004 1:21 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > > > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: [snip] > > I wasn't *talking* about "from a fashion standpoint", Robin. If it's > > hard to ascertain whether a figure in a miniature is wearing a surcoat > > or not, the whole corpus of symbolism involved in *depicting* the > > figure in a surcoat gets lost. > > Sorry; I was thrown by your original question, which was phrased in terms > of choices made in "wearing" a gown, not "painting" a gown. You're right, it was a poor choice of words on my part. (Though I suspect that a monochromatic scheme would not be popular with a medieval lady, I really was talking about the symbolism/depiction issue, and not any fashion issues). > I thought it > might be possible that you were thinking primarily of what a real woman > would choose to wear, because I often hear people (even on this list!) > assume that a work of art is an exact depiction of clothing worn in life, > regardless of the nature of the art -- and I've learned that it's often > important to establish the difference between wearing and painting, before > going on to discuss the issues involved in the painters' decisions. I > truly did not mean to be condescending. (I suspect there were perhaps some > people reading this conversation who needed that point made explicit, even > if you did not!) All things being equal, I prefer that people be as explicit as possible, which is why I emphasized -- possibly to death-- the point I had been trying to make in my response. :-) > Given that we've got that established, I think what's fouling us up here > is the quality of your monitor image. The two highlight lines are quite > clear in the image I see: the one closest to us is defined by a > well-defined single-line highlight, a single-line shadow, and a broader > highlighted area on the adjacent bust surface, with no other > folding/shadows to confuse. As I'm seeing it, it could not be mistaken for > "a fold or shadow," which is what you said it looks like on your screen. > (I frankly don't even think it could be a seam, as was originally > proposed, as this artist seems to paint seams with a single fine darker > line, no highlight line.) Of course it might be *my* monitor that's > off-true (I haven't seen the original or even a paper reproduction), but I > think that it's more likely to lose that kind of detail than to gain it. I think I'd need to see a better quality picture of the image to appreciate what you mean, Robin. Since we can't arrange that, I'll say only that aside from the issue of the line and its highlight(s), relatively little of the gown is visible since Felicite is wrapped in a red cloak or mantle of some kind, which makes it even more difficult to tell what overgown she may be depicted as wearing. > From your description -- > > > Never having tried to paint minatures with period pigments, I cannot > > determine whether the "two highlighed lines" would have created a > > convincing surcoat effect when the painting is new. It's also > > relevant that my monitor tends to show things darker than they are, > > and I can barely detect the lines in question (unfortunately, I don't > > have access to a better copy of the image we're discussing). > > -- I think there might be less of a question for you about the reading of > the image if you saw the lines as clearly as I did. Possibly. Without a better copy of the image, I can't tell. > You also wondered whether a miniaturist (as opposed to a sculptor) would > use the same color for both surcote and undergown. Actually, there are > plenty of examples of overgown/undergown combinations in the same colors > (I just footnoted a couple in a paper I was writing, but focusing about 50 > years earlier, so not the same styles, I'm afraid). Ah, but in the same exact shades of the same colors? > Yes, it's always > struck me as odd from a costume standpoint, but they're certainly in the > artwork. Whether they reflect artistic decision or real-life practice, I > don't know, but the idea of a same-color overgown isn't so weird as to get > my antennae up here. I'll take your word for that. 13th-15thc isn't really my period, and I certainly have not made the kind of close study of the relevant artwork that you have made. > > I think the artist probably had reasons for not making the plastron white > that, in his eye, overruled any perceived benefit of a contrast. I wasn't expecting a white plastron; I don't view those as indispensable to surcoats, let alone to depictions of (symbolic) surcoats in art. I was expecting there to be some difference, either in hue or in shade, between the "surcoat" and the underdress. Still, you have made a reasonable case, based on the nature of the pigments used in painting miniatures, why that might not always be done. > That > might have been a practical reason (say, because there was already a blue > layer down before he decided to "create" a surcote), or it might have been > iconographic (because he wanted to use the "blue robe" imagery as well as > the surcote imagery, or because he wanted to contrast the spiritual with > the more worldly implication of fur), or for some other reason. Since it > was also within the range of acceptable practice to paint the same color > for under- and overgown, there may not have been any loss of meaning for > the "surcote" imagery even without the depiction of fur. Of course, that's > assuming that the viewer sees the lines as clearly as I'm seeing them. > Naturally it wouldn't work if they're muddy, which -- I gather -- is how > they look for you. The dress itself is a rather deep blue on my monitor, and no highlighting is visible on the line in question at all. In fact, I had to look several times even to *see* the line in question. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 00:33:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R4X0RM019009 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:33:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4WSYF010005 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:32:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4WPlk091436; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:32:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4WMll091399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:32:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-115.sonic.net [209.148.112.115]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6R4WGw3012693 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:32:18 -0700 Message-ID: <4105DC02.9030109@lavoltapress.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:37:22 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk><005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> <41053786.5040203@lavoltapress.com><011601c47364$7245d700$cd65c345@39jz301> <4105946C.4060500@lavoltapress.com> <004201c47384$f4bed180$cd65c345@39jz301> In-Reply-To: <004201c47384$f4bed180$cd65c345@39jz301> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >In an attack, >the only intent is to make oneself look better than the other person. >(Attacks often have healthy ad hominem components .....) > > I'm not sure sure . . . since if people are aware that the person they disagree with will view disagreement as an attack even if it is not, most who don't intend an attack won't say anything, even if they have something interesting to say. > There's often a certain point when everyone around you has told >you that you are the go-to person for X or Y, and then suddenly another >person pops up who knows as much (or more). How much the period of panic >over losing your "status" lasts will tell the tale. > > > > If you don't invest your personal identity in being "the expert," then, no matter what people say, it won't bother you if someone else seems to know as much or more. There's a lot more to life than being the person everyone asks what color stockings to wear, or whatever. Fran _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 00:46:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R4kbRM019078 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 00:46:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4ddYF010411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:39:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4dclk095465; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:39:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f7.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.57]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4dYlk095384 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:39:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:39:25 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.81 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:39:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.81] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 23:39:25 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2004 04:39:25.0697 (UTC) FILETIME=[B2005710:01C47393] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] French Faille X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ok, I'm liking this one alot, and more importantly so is the guy I'm doing the research for :) The OED only lists the term "Faille" as early as the 1860s. Is there some indication that it was used as a term for fabric as early as the 1660s? Marc _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 01:00:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R50LRM019121 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:00:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4wRYF011658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:58:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4wPlk006464; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:58:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4wNlk006401 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:58:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Rampant_Peacock@comcast.net) Received: from molly (c-67-170-26-145.client.comcast.net[67.170.26.145]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <20040727045816011006h6ere>; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:58:16 +0000 From: "Molly Boone" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Split Sleeves Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:56:13 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20040726210941.01f0eca0@pop.surewest.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I do mine much the same way. Most modern sleeves are shaped like a flat omega symbol and the split I use is on the thumb side of the arm, in the shoulder cuts starts just as the shoulder rise starts dropping into the underarm reduction and the I run it straight into the cuff. The shoulder cut starts about 4 inches down from the very top of the sleeve and the cuff closure usually sits right on my wrist done on the thumb side. I also usually put in a button and loop about half way down so if I get cold I can close the middle of the sleeve around the arm. Make sure you line with a nice coordinating material because they do get warm to wear. Oh and don't depend on a single tie from bodice and a sleeve to hold them together. The most dependable attaching format I have found is either double ties sunk into the sleeve cap seam and tied to the bodice through grommets of grommets in both pieces and a tie that runs through both. Molly -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Joan Jurancich Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 9:13 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Split Sleeves At 02:18 PM 7/26/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Hi All- > >Taking a break from my frantic sewing, preparing for my booth opening in >August. I had a quick question about the double sleeves that seem to be >popular in the 14th and 15th c. >I am attaching lace sleeves and skirt to a bodice (totally not period, I >know) and want to be able to take my arms out of the sleeves, so I don't >catch them on everything. And, of course, I ran into a problem: where do I >put the slit in the sleeves so they hang properly when not in use and >still look good when being worn? I have gone through a few books, and it >seems that the slits were sometimes put under the sleeve, in the sides or >at the top of the sleeves. I just don't know what the use of the different >places would be. >I will be putting a cuff on the sleeve, if that makes a difference. >Thank you, knowledgeable friends (in advance). > >B When I have done split sleeves, I found that they hang best when the slit is from about half-way (or slightly less) down the front armscye to the thumb-side of the wrist. When you do not have your wrist through the cuff, the sleeves hang just behind your arm, looking pretty and staying out of the way. Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 01:01:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R51BRM019129 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:01:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4xOYF011690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:59:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4xOlk007034; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:59:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6R4xMlk006989 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:59:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 15556 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2004 04:59:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 2004 04:59:59 -0000 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com); by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1069.24.4.69.40.1090904359.squirrel@24.4.69.40> In-Reply-To: <000001c47360$a76400a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> References: <000001c47360$a76400a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Any recommendations for steam iron besides Rowenta? From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Hi all, Sorry to clog the airways with this, but my Rowenta has finally > bit > the big one. It is the 3rd or 4th one I have owned and am ready to try > something new. > > Do any of you have experience with a steam iron you like besides Rowenta. I haven't had personal experience, but I saw Braun irons at Bed, Bath & Beyond a little while ago that were similar to the Rowenta in weight. When I mentioned it on this list, someone said they had used one in Europe and was very happy with it. Good luck with your quest! Diana Habra www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 01:13:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R5DJRM019224 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 01:13:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4CkYF008728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:12:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R4Chlk080433; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:12:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (smtp1.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6R4Celk080351 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 22:12:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-2071); Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:10:03 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp1.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:10:03 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040726210941.01f0eca0@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:12:30 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Split Sleeves In-Reply-To: <004001c47356$2ae26bc0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 02:18 PM 7/26/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Hi All- > >Taking a break from my frantic sewing, preparing for my booth opening in >August. I had a quick question about the double sleeves that seem to be >popular in the 14th and 15th c. >I am attaching lace sleeves and skirt to a bodice (totally not period, I >know) and want to be able to take my arms out of the sleeves, so I don't >catch them on everything. And, of course, I ran into a problem: where do I >put the slit in the sleeves so they hang properly when not in use and >still look good when being worn? I have gone through a few books, and it >seems that the slits were sometimes put under the sleeve, in the sides or >at the top of the sleeves. I just don't know what the use of the different >places would be. >I will be putting a cuff on the sleeve, if that makes a difference. >Thank you, knowledgeable friends (in advance). > >B When I have done split sleeves, I found that they hang best when the slit is from about half-way (or slightly less) down the front armscye to the thumb-side of the wrist. When you do not have your wrist through the cuff, the sleeves hang just behind your arm, looking pretty and staying out of the way. Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 04:38:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R8cmRM005188 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:38:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R8awYF022227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:36:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R8amlk023926; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:36:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R8ailk023852 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:36:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bef6.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.246]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 245235EE075 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:36:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002d01c473b4$dee25960$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] French Faille Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:36:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Mark, I know of a dress from 1730 made of silk faille, so why not a century before? Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Carlson" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 6:39 AM Subject: [h-cost] French Faille > Ok, I'm liking this one alot, and more importantly so is the guy I'm doing > the research for :) > > The OED only lists the term "Faille" as early as the 1860s. Is there some > indication that it was used as a term for fabric as early as the 1660s? > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 04:41:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R8fpRM005881 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:41:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R8fGYF022401 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:41:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R8fFlk026167; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:41:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R8fDlk026129 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 02:41:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:40:06 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFC4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval Thread-Index: AcRzYRhvzortqrygRJWwCEK5P08K4QAU+3SA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > My husband, who has worn 15th century hose with pourpoint, as well as > 12th century, chipped in with some practical observations. > He reckons the pourpoint attachment only works when hose come up to the > waist, and are tied on around the body, so that any movement is around > the waist. He says if you attached separate-leg hose to something which > goes over your shoulder, when you lift your arms it wants you to lift > your leg as well, like a puppet on strings. I agree, that's what happens > when you wear a basque with shoulder straps, and suspenders(garter > straps?) - but people apparently still wear them, so perhaps the discomfort can be > overcome? I've never had that problem with my seperate leg hose. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 05:19:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6R9JERM019817 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 05:19:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R9HRYF024300 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 03:17:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R9HOlk044847; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 03:17:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6R9HLlk044820 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 03:17:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-95-128.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.128]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6R9HKBw009633 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 05:17:26 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040726193800.01915df0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:40:26 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] And now for another thing completely different (Broadway) In-Reply-To: <1090148363.40fa580b9ac0c@webmail.netspace.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >A stage musical based upon Monty Python and the Holy Grail is on the hunt for >financing, I have heard. (catching up on e-mail after vacation): Saturday night I saw Bat Boy, the Musical - you know, the purported bat boy seen everywhere on tabloid covers? Yes, that bat boy. It wasn't as bad as it might have been, and the singing, acting, etc. were really good. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 06:34:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RAYkRM020204 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:34:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RAY0YF027565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:34:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RAXvlk083541; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:33:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.83]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6RAXslk083481 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 04:33:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO 39jz301) (nicolaa@rogers.com@69.195.101.205 with login) by smtp105.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 2004 10:33:47 -0000 Message-ID: <004f01c473c5$32bd39f0$cd65c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFBD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk><005201c472fa$335deb00$b267c345@39jz301> <41053786.5040203@lavoltapress.com><011601c47364$7245d700$cd65c345@39jz301> <4105946C.4060500@lavoltapress.com><004201c47384$f4bed180$cd65c345@39jz301> <4105DC02.9030109@lavoltapress.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:33:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > > There's often a certain point when everyone around you has told > >you that you are the go-to person for X or Y, and then suddenly another > >person pops up who knows as much (or more). How much the period of panic > >over losing your "status" lasts will tell the tale. > > > > If you don't invest your personal identity in being "the expert," then, > no matter what people say, it won't bother you if someone else seems to > know as much or more. There's a lot more to life than being the person > everyone asks what color stockings to wear, or whatever. I will admit to being human--and briefly (as in for about a couple of seconds) being shocked or bothered that someone else had shown up on my field. That was replaced very quickly by "Oh cool--someone who knows the sources I do, who won't glaze when I start babbling about them, and who maybe will have seen something I didn't!" I suppose it depends on the attitude of the new expert, too. If someone shows up with the attitude that no one around here could *possibly* know as much as *they* do..... Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 08:40:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RCecRM020897 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:40:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RCduYF002768 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:39:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RCdmlk050236; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:39:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RCdklk050173 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 06:39:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.2b.5d107cf1 (17079) for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:39:35 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <2b.5d107cf1.2e37a707@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:39:35 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Any recommendations for steam iron besides Rowenta? To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/26/2004 7:02:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, fran@lavoltapress.com writes: Sorry to clog the airways with this, but my Rowenta has finally bit >the big one. It is the 3rd or 4th one I have owned and am ready to try >something new. I absolutely love my Norelco but, alas, they have quit making irons. Arggggh! Don't know what I'm going to do when I need a new one. I've been thinking about getting a commercial one, with the separate water supply. The only trouble there is the lack of portability. Not real fond of Black & Decker or Rowenta, myself. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 09:16:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RDGwRM021095 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:16:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RDGKYF005109 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:16:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RDGFlk070874; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:16:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RDGDlk070841 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:16:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from purplkat@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.15]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I1I004WXI6JOY@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [167.206.5.139] (Forwarded-For: [167.206.224.2]) by mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mshttpd); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:16:11 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:16:11 -0400 From: purplkat@optonline.net Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice To: Historical Costume Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Since I am not an expert on anything - I decided to gather an idea of who *is* an expert / very good / teacher in particular areas and direct people there. eg- if someone wants period Irish I tell them to find / talk to Kass McGann If it is shoemaking / leather work - Marc Carleson Female fighters - start with any Lady of the Rose / or several particular female fighters I know If I don't know a particular bit of info - I go find out. More info is always good. Also, if I am at an event where I know the merchants I ask them for help. Katheryne who would love to be a research librarian ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Carroll-Clark > > > > There's often a certain point when everyone around you has told you that you are the go-to person for X or Y, and then suddenly another person pops up who knows as much (or more). How much the period of panic over losing your "status" lasts will tell the tale. > I will admit to being human--and briefly (as in for about a couple of seconds) being shocked or bothered that someone else had shown up on my field. That was replaced very quickly by "Oh cool--someone who knows the sources I do, who won't glaze when I start babbling about them, and who maybe will have seen something I didn't!" > Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 09:39:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RDdPRM021247 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:39:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RDbdYF006708 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:37:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RDbclk084123; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:37:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.72]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RDbYlk084084 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:37:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from purplkat@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.15]) by mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I1I002BXJ5P9F@mta6.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [167.206.5.139] (Forwarded-For: [167.206.224.2]) by mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mshttpd); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:36:58 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:36:58 -0400 From: purplkat@optonline.net Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns on CD To: Historical Costume Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Welllll,,,,, The shirt pattern I would *LOVE* to have is as follows: standard shirt body the collar (on the original pic- was an oversized peter pan) is a band collar style slight shoulder cap 'poufy' sleeves (probably 1 1/2 times diamater of 'normal' sleeve) the cuff is approx 3" long with a 'turn-back' of the same ammt (sorta like a tux shirt) the cuff is fitted to the wrist (but not very tight) and buttoned IIRC it was the rage in the early 70's - ish I *HAD* a page out of an old pattern book. However in between moving more than 2 dozen times and changing states 3 times, I have lost that pic. I have all the parts in my mind, however I don't have the skills to translate that into an actual garment. Katheryne ----- Original Message ----- From: gia_gavino@comcast.net > Hi! What time period do you consider old? Over many years, I have collected old patterns dating from about the 1940's to current. Are you interested in any particular dresses? I could go through my multiple boxes and send you the pattern #s for what I have... > > Slan go foill > Elena (Emer) nic Tighearnaigh > > -------------- Original message -------------- > I am seriously looking for a few particular shirt patterns, and would love some *old* dress patterns. > > Katheryne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 10:25:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6REP7RM021698 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:25:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REFTYF009193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:15:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REFOlk009012; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:15:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REFElk008891 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:15:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:13:39 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFCB@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Reassurance rather than advice [WAS: poet shirt and docs] Thread-Index: AcRz3y2kRwqeANYKT7OIKdcrlXUU3AABCBgw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > If you don't invest your personal identity in being "the expert," then, > no matter what people say, it won't bother you if someone else seems to > know as much or more. There's a lot more to life than being the person > everyone asks what color stockings to wear, or whatever. You are *so* right Fran. I have the problem that people point me out and recommend me as "the expert" - which I do not find an enviable position to be in sicne I *know* I'm not. A bit more knowlegeable than some, perhaps(thanks to a great extent to what people have shared on this list over the years), but by no means an expert. Trying to dissuade people of this missapprehension can, at times, be surprisingly difficult.... which I find scary since they have just taken someone else's (mistaken) word for it. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 10:25:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6REPlRM021704 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:25:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RDaiYF006505 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:36:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RDaflk083453; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:36:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu (kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu [169.147.4.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RDablk083336 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:36:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ckinsey@kumc.edu) Received: from KUMC-SMTPOUT-DOMAIN-MTA by kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:36:29 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Beta Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:36:15 -0500 From: "Catherine Kinsey" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: OT-Any recommendations for steam iron besides X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I second the Black & Decker recomendation. I don't know which exact model I have as DH bought it for me as an anniversary present (he got points for this :) ). It has a 10 minute automatic shut-off, and an automtic shut-off if it tips over, plus a great shot-of-steam. When I am really cranking the sewing I wish for a larger water reservoir but it has survived getting knocked off the ironing board by the cats a couple of times so that is a plus. I like it so much I would probably checkout current B&D models if/when this one dies. Catherine _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 10:32:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6REWKRM021758 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:32:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REVlYF010692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:31:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REVjlk020171; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:31:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REVglk020121 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:31:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01075 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:36:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:36:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns on CD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 purplkat@optonline.net wrote: > The shirt pattern I would *LOVE* to have is as follows: > IIRC it was the rage in the early 70's - ish When I needed a late 1960s pattern I watched eBay for a few weeks. There was an embarrassment of riches, and it didn't take long before I found the style I was looking for in my size. (Be sure to read the size measurements closely -- sizes changed over the years!) I also found a handful of online stores that sell old patterns; I don't have any URLs now, but they weren't hard to locate. Try searching on "vintage pattern." --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 10:35:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6REZ5RM021789 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:35:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REXHYF010855 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:33:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REXElk021220; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:33:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.cableone.net (scanmail2.cableone.net [24.116.0.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REXClk021194 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:33:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kbaird@cableone.net) Received: from kimathlon (unverified [24.119.35.202]) by smail2.cableone.net (SurgeMail 1.9b) with ESMTP id 10578783 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:18:56 -0700 From: "kim baird" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] French Faille Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:33:27 -0500 Message-ID: <001601c473e6$aecdc610$6601a8c0@kimathlon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Server: High Performance Mail Server - http://surgemail.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Names of fabric are always changing. Just because they didn't call it faille, doesn't mean it didn't exist under a different name. -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Marc Carlson Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 11:39 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] French Faille Ok, I'm liking this one alot, and more importantly so is the guy I'm doing the research for :) The OED only lists the term "Faille" as early as the 1860s. Is there some indication that it was used as a term for fabric as early as the 1660s? Marc _________________________________________________________________ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 10:45:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6REj3RM021916 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:45:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RERcYF010319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:27:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RERalk017306; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:27:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mx6.wvu.edu (mx6.wvu.edu [157.182.140.68]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RERWlk017218 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:27:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rdonalds@wvu.edu) Received: from WVUGW01.wvu.edu (wvugw01.wvu.edu [157.182.215.110]) by mx6.wvu.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RERPrL007386 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:27:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rdonalds@wvu.edu) Received: from WVUDOM1-MTA by WVUGW01.wvu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:05:55 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:05:26 -0400 From: "Rhonda Donaldson" To: , Subject: Re: [h-cost] Arthur Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hear! Hear! >>> stilskin@netspace.net.au 7/26/2004 10:07:07 PM >>> You know, I liked this, I really did, for no reason that makes sense. The story was a hotch-potch of Arthurian elements but then, aren't all Arthurian stories like that by now? If anything, it was more Kennedy Camelot than legendary Camelot, especially with all the noble carry-on over the word freedom. Perhaps I just like the idea of grown men stomping around the countryside chopping people up for no logical reason. The production design and the costume design was all over the place but it worked as a whole. The invasion/retreat chronology was half a century out but who cares? There were far too many homo-erotic shots of grown men looking meaningfully at each-other in much the same way as soap opera actors stare into the middle-distance while awaiting the commerical break. It was nice to see that Lieutenant Hornblower brought along crewman Styles for assistance. Merlin needed a pointy hat with stars on it. That chick! Hell, no one in their right mind goes into battle with three leather thongs and a bit of Kryolan but then, no one in thier right mind would wear a bikini in Britain at ANY time. Still, I liked it, it had spirit, it nodded to most of the Arthurian conventions across all the versions, and there was a vague attempt as heroic-journeying in it, too, -C. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 10:45:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6REjCRM021919 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:45:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REOoYF010070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:24:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REOilk015422; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:24:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from david.io.com (david.io.com [199.170.88.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REOcll015348 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:24:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from webmail.io.com (columbia.io.com [199.170.88.107]) by david.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6REMGCI012245 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:22:16 -0500 Received: from webmail.io.com (webmail [127.0.0.1]) by webmail.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6REOcbh008709 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:24:38 -0500 Received: (from apache@localhost) by webmail.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i6REOcoE008701; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:24:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: webmail.io.com: apache set sender to chiara@io.com using -f Received: from 63.119.218.166 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ches) by webmail.io.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:24:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <39290.63.119.218.166.1090938278.squirrel@webmail.io.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:24:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns on CD From: "Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, everyone pretty much knows my answer ... GLOVES!!!! Seriously though, I think I have all the american commercial glove patterns from the 40's on. Now I am after the others from around the world. :) That and there are copyright issues with them that the commercial pattern companies are starting to take notice of with gloves specifically since there have been a HUGE amount of cd patterns for gloves on Ebay for the last few months. I understand that a lawsuit is in the works against those selling cause the patterns are still protected. What I would like to see are patterns for riding, you know, equestrians. I remember seeing them at one time but have not seen any for a while other than in Vogue. That and slipper patterns, oooh those are so cute. :) Ches >> -------------- Original message -------------- >> > I am seriously looking for a few particular shirt patterns, and would love > some *old* dress patterns. >> > Katheryne > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Chiara _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 10:52:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6REq2RM021992 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:52:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REpJYF012568 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:51:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REpFlk034185; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:51:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REpBlk034145 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:51:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01214 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:56:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:56:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] French Faille In-Reply-To: <001601c473e6$aecdc610$6601a8c0@kimathlon> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, kim baird wrote: > Names of fabric are always changing. Just because they didn't call it > faille, doesn't mean it didn't exist under a different name. But in Marc's case, the issue is whether the *name* would have been used for a fabric, not even what fabric it might refer to. He's looking for a definition of a shoe term (French fall) that might be a reference to "French faille." Marc -- you might talk with Drea and Danielle. Both have been working (separately) on c. 1600 inventories and other documents that are chock-full of fabric names. The OED tends to miss early instances of specialized costume terms, so I wouldn't rule out an early appearance even if it's not in the OED. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 11:00:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RF0bRM022044 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:00:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REwbYF013328 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:58:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REwZlk039539; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:58:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6REwVlk039514 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 08:58:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6REwUOo017276 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040727105318.01af27e0@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:58:35 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFCB@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx .ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] expertist and expertise... X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey Teddy... I don't try to dissuade folks... I just tell them flat out. "Well sure I can help you out, but I am by no means an expert" If they think I am being self-effacing, whatever, that's their mental mechanics - not mine. The other answer folks might get out of me if I have little to no knowledge of an area is - "Wow, that sounds interesting. Let's go looking for some information." I would rather enlist them as research buddies - instead of as students or empty vessels that expect me to fill them with the answers. just my take on it. Bridgette - currently researching bezants. >Trying to dissuade people of this missapprehension can, at times, be >surprisingly difficult.... which I find scary since they have just >taken someone else's (mistaken) word for it. > >Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 11:18:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RFIARM022175 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:18:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RFHZYF015265 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:17:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RFHWlk054222; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:17:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [216.148.227.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RFHPlk054083 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:17:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gia_gavino@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.114 ([204.127.197.114]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <2004072715171801400dm3qse>; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:17:18 +0000 Received: from [24.16.242.58] by 204.127.197.114; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:17:17 +0000 From: gia_gavino@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Patterns on CD Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:17:17 +0000 Message-Id: <072720041517.204.410671FD000A1AD4000000CC2200750330010207900E09A10E0709@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Jun 24 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: Z2lhX2dhdmlub0Bjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From the sound of things I guess I'm going to have to inventory my 12 plus boxes of old patterns. I kid you not! When I lived in Oregon (late 70's to late 80's), it seemed that every time I went to a garage sale there were scads of patterns for sale really really cheap. In the 90's I noticed a real scarcity of old patterns, and I think by that time most of the garage saler folks just threw them away as garbage. Or used the tissues for wrapping the stuff they deemed valuable enough to sell. Now I am really glad I snapped up all those patterns. I suppose I could sell them on the H-Costume sale thingy...(still need my coffee) Would there be enough interest for me to do this? -- Slan go foill Elena (Emer) nic Tighearnaigh -------------- Original message -------------- > > On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 purplkat@optonline.net wrote: > > > The shirt pattern I would *LOVE* to have is as follows: > > > IIRC it was the rage in the early 70's - ish > > When I needed a late 1960s pattern I watched eBay for a few weeks. There > was an embarrassment of riches, and it didn't take long before I found the > style I was looking for in my size. (Be sure to read the size measurements > closely -- sizes changed over the years!) I also found a handful of online > stores that sell old patterns; I don't have any URLs now, but they weren't > hard to locate. Try searching on "vintage pattern." > > --Robin > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 11:20:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RFKHRM022182 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:20:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RFJWYF015472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:19:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RFJSlk055679; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:19:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RFJNlk055586 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:19:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01423 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:24:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:24:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! In-Reply-To: <200407270000.59244.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > I think I'd need to see a better quality picture of the image to > appreciate what you mean, Robin. Since we can't arrange that, I'll > say only that aside from the issue of the line and its highlight(s), > relatively little of the gown is visible since Felicite is wrapped in > a red cloak or mantle of some kind, which makes it even more difficult > to tell what overgown she may be depicted as wearing. > > > You also wondered whether a miniaturist (as opposed to a sculptor) would > > use the same color for both surcote and undergown. Actually, there are > > plenty of examples of overgown/undergown combinations in the same colors > > (I just footnoted a couple in a paper I was writing, but focusing about 50 > > years earlier, so not the same styles, I'm afraid). > > Ah, but in the same exact shades of the same colors? Yup. Though I suspect the choice is often compositional -- e.g. to simplify the painting of, or the visual impact of, a figure that is small or has a minor role in the scene. Sorry, but I don't want to take the time to start hunting up examples right now. Too much time spent on e-mail this week as is ;-) > I wasn't expecting a white plastron; I don't view those as > indispensable to surcoats, let alone to depictions of (symbolic) > surcoats in art. Actually, for the first half of the 15th c., fur (meaning white fur) is virtually always used in depictions, consistent with the use of the gown as a royal robe (or symbol of royalty). Surcotes with fabric fronts seem to disappear by around 1410, though there's certainly an exception here and there. By the late 15th c., though, you start seeing some strange and fanciful variations on the surcote as might be expected from artists who are inventing them rather than representing a known garment. So in that time you see artists occasionally depart from the fur-fronted depictions to use whatever material they find useful for their purposes. In this case, the artist apparently still had enough grounding in tradition to use fur for Fortuna's surcote, so he was making a departure from the traditional depiction to use a non-fur front for Felicite. I suspect, though, this was a choice of convenience or afterthought, perhaps second to the intention to robe Felicite in Mary's colors (blue robe, red mantle). > The dress itself is a rather deep blue on my monitor, and no > highlighting is visible on the line in question at all. In fact, I > had to look several times even to *see* the line in question. I don't have Photoshop so can't send you a lightened version, but if you'd like, I'll send you a crop of the figure with some lines hand-drawn over the original lines in so you can see the position of them. There's enough of the blue figure showing to allow for a clear pair of surcote curves. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 12:23:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RGN1RM022570 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:23:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RGMHYF022044 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:22:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RGM0lk007293; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:22:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f10.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.60]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RGLvlk007179 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:21:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:21:50 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:21:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:21:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2004 16:21:50.0515 (UTC) FILETIME=[D2453830:01C473F5] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE:French Faille X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" >Hi Mark, >I know of a dress from 1730 made of silk faille, so why not a century >before? Normally I would agree -- but likely this may fall into one of those academic "prove it" matches since we're trying to come up with a completely unexpected interpretation for this term. That means I want to have all my ducks in order when I definately that "French Falls" are a type of cloth shoe. This dress, did they -call- it silk falle in 1730? Marc _________________________________________________________________ Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 12:37:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RGbYRM022787 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:37:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RGZbYF023304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:35:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RGZalk018965; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:35:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RGZUlk018920 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:35:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from [192.168.167.45] (helo=wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BpUvJ-0007od-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:35:29 -0400 Message-ID: <4967206.1090946129401.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:35:29 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Bezants (WAS: expertist and expertise... ) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Bridgette wrote: >Bridgette - currently researching bezants. OOooooo, me too. In what context? I'm researching them because I've promised to teach a class next November on the use of bezants, spangles, and other little ornamental metal bits in medieval and renaissance embroidery. I've titled it "Stars, spangles & studs." Jen Segrest has some good examples at www.medievalbeads.com, if you haven't discovered that site already. I've found a few sources for suitable-looking metal bits -- actually scrapbooking sources and sometimes bead stores seem to have the best assortment of bits that are actually metal (rather than plastic), some of which look appropriately medieval. For the class, I'm planning on having an assortment of stuff for people to see, but for the "class project" we're probably going to be using the little shapes with metal prongs on them that are variously referred to as "studs" or "nailheads." They're quick and easy to use because all you have to do is stick the prongs through the cloth and bend them back on the reverse side using a thimble over your finger. Where I'm running into difficulties is that I'd like to be able to tell (and show) people how to _make_ some of those little stamped metal shapes (squares, rounds, etc.) with embossed decoration and edge holes for sewing, rather than having to be totally dependent on what one can find to buy. But I have zero metalworking experience and don't really know where to start looking for what materials, tools etc. might be needed. (Fortunately I'm going to an event this weekend and taking a pewter-casting class from someone whose brains I can pick...) ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 13:16:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RHGuRM022973 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:16:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RHEoYF027051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:14:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RHEglk051902; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:14:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RHEblk051861 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:14:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6RHEYOo008531 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040727130148.01b36e78@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:14:38 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bezants (WAS: expertist and expertise... ) In-Reply-To: <4967206.1090946129401.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthl ink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey there... just noticed I can't spell "experts" -how embarassing- but on to bezants... ; > My context is usually I get all hepped up about one thing and just drill down through all the information I can find on it... ; > I am a research junkie. Right now the question is the evolution and distribution of the "hood" aka "aumuse" / aka "chappe" (in some contexts") I'm currently focusing on the 1340-1350 textile accounts of the English "Great Wardrobe" and the French "Argenterie" - which has led me to 'bezants' or 'gauffres' etc. I'm really interested in making them... and I also have zero serious metal working skills, but every year I try -one- metal working oriented project... and this year - it's going to be bezants. I've got the soapstone for the "mould" or "pattern" - and now I'm trying to track down the rolled gold sheeting - and going to price that out. It may be too pricey to pursue very far, but maybe if I can just produce one or two... I'll have a better understanding of the process. Your idea of the studs sounds very good. Please let me know how it goes... This could be very fun... Have you had a chance to look at some of the Visby finds yet. I hear that there are dozens of bezants... Bridgette _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 13:59:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RHxNRM023281 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:59:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RHvQYF001722 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:57:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RHvMlk088090; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:57:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RHvHll088029 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:57:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6RHsUtY008951 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:54:30 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <41069770.9020508@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:57:04 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bezants (WAS: expertist and expertise... ) References: <4967206.1090946129401.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <4967206.1090946129401.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Some of them are/were dangly. I used some "coins" for bellydancing to decorate one sleeve of a houp for my husband. They have a 6-point star on them and an edge bead treament, not unlike some medieval finds. Here's a close back view: http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/js_houp_back_00.jpg (my, how bad those photos are. need to redo someday.) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 14:15:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RIF2RM023338 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:15:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIEFYF003289 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:14:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIEDlk002159; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:14:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav130.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIE8lk002048 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:14:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:14:03 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav130.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:14:03 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Ruffles and hems Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:14:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:14:04 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2004 18:14:03.0869 (UTC) FILETIME=[7FA980D0:01C47405] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6RIF2RM023338 Status: RO "Which brings me back to your description of the image, quoted above. Is there some reason to think that the figures with the white parts are "common women" and the rest are noble -- that is, some reason other than the fact that they have skirts depicted this way? They all look noble to me -- same hairstyles, and of course those white fur sleeve linings." I do have more to say on the subject but no time to look up images or write long thoughtful discussion. I will be leaving for Pennsic in just over a week and, while I am mostly spending my time hunched over a computer, I'm logging books in the data base and corresponding with potential employees. (Other retailers have Christmas, I have Pennsic War, with probably 50% or more of my yearly business taking place in 12 days.) If anybody cares about this in early September, I 'll be glad to continue this then. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 14:18:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RIIJRM023357 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:18:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIBSYF003049 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:11:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIBPlk099802; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:11:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIBMlk099734 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:11:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BpWQ2-000A6x-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:11:18 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:10:17 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Arthur References: <87.1187d777.2e36aedc@aol.com> <001001c4737e$6bebb720$09f671cb@chris> <200407262235.38389.cathy@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <200407262235.38389.cathy@thyrsus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote >> >> There were far too many homo-erotic shots of grown men looking meaningfully >> at each-other in much the same way as soap opera actors stare into the >> middle-distance while awaiting the commerical break. > >There were lots of meaningful looks that weren't homoerotic, too; I snarked >to my husband that you can't complain about the script being bad, because >they seemed not to have used one. :-) > With the new "information" phrases accompanying films, I saw one a while ago that claimed it contained "infrequent language". And by all accounts that was entirely accurate! Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 14:24:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RIO9RM023403 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:24:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RINQYF004168 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:23:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RINPlk009553; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:23:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RINKlk009499 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:23:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1BpWbf-000BA4-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:23:19 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:21:54 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFC4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFC4@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Teddy wrote > >> My husband, who has worn 15th century hose with pourpoint, as well as >> 12th century, chipped in with some practical observations. > >> He reckons the pourpoint attachment only works when hose come up to >the >> waist, and are tied on around the body, so that any movement is around > >> the waist. He says if you attached separate-leg hose to something >which >> goes over your shoulder, when you lift your arms it wants you to lift >> your leg as well, like a puppet on strings. I agree, that's what >happens >> when you wear a basque with shoulder straps, and suspenders(garter >> straps?) - but people apparently still wear them, so perhaps the >discomfort can be >> overcome? > >I've never had that problem with my seperate leg hose. > >Teddy Apologies if I've missed a previous post. Do you mean you are holding up separate leg hose with a pourpoint (-ish thing)? For what period, and can you point me at some sources? (this may be really well known, it's just between the periods I've done). Are the hose just thigh-length and suspended from a point at the front, or are they growing towards joining up? Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 14:24:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RIOlRM023419 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:24:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIMkYF004122 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:22:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIMjlk009026; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:22:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net (audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.253]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIMelk008986 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:22:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.60.151.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.60.151] helo=HELENPINTO) by audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BpWb0-0006ZL-HS for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:22:40 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c47406$ae672e80$973c9b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4967206.1090946129401.JavaMail.root@wamui07.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bezants (WAS: expertist and expertise... ) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:24:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef1b3c2f8a4d1597df4f74c5b635bbcc78350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.60.151 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Chris wrote: > Where I'm running into difficulties is that I'd like to be able to tell (and show) people how to _make_ some of those little stamped metal shapes (squares, rounds, etc.) with embossed decoration and edge holes for sewing, rather than having to be totally dependent on what one can find to buy. But I have zero metalworking experience and don't really know where to start looking for what materials, tools etc. might be needed. (Fortunately I'm going to an event this weekend and taking a pewter-casting class from someone whose brains I can pick...) > Have you considered thin sheet brass, like 26 or 28 gauge? This is easily cut with tin snips or even kitchen shears and decorated with scribes and punches. Carefully cut out the shapes (with prongs) and file or sand the edges to remove burrs. You can pierce it with punches, or emboss a design into it with a scribe while it rests on a padded surface. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 14:27:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RIR2RM023453 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:27:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIPCYF004320 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:25:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIP8lk010900; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:25:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41908.mail.yahoo.com (web41908.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.159]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6RIP6lk010791 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:25:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladybrynn@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040727182458.158.qmail@web41908.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.164.163.130] by web41908.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:24:58 PDT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:24:58 -0700 (PDT) From: sheree krasley To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] re: bezants X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've had some luck recently in making bezants. I've used a soapstone mold to carve the pattern then burnished the metal over the mold. For the experiments and in testing the design I used a medium weight copper sheet that I got at a local craft store. I just cut a small square to burnish across the mold. It worked perfectly. Most of the medieval period examples and wardrobe accounts list the bezants as silver guilt. Out of curiosity I price gold in 10kt ( in period it would have been closer to 22 kt) It was going to run about $40 for a 1x1 inch square that was 28 gage. That gage is a little thick for burnishing, so it would have to be rolled thinner. maybe about 32 gage would work better. Silver on the other hand would run about $4 for a 1 x 6 inch piece at 32 gage. The could then be plated gold. The craft store also had some bronze in the same weight for a gold appearance. The sheet of copper and the burnishing tool cost be all of $8 the sheet being 12 x 18. The real trick in making the bezants is a good mold to work from. It needs to be detailed but not too deep and take your time in the burnishing to pull out all the details. Don't be afraid to go over the metal several times and get into all the nooks and crannies. Now all I need to do is make about 50 or 60 of the little buggers and I can stitch them onto fabric. The metal is thin enough to be easily pierced with a thick sewing needle so no prongs are needed. The one extant example I've seen of a bishop's mitre they are definitely sewn on. By the way if you look at the Devonshire hunting tapestries you will find severl examples of bezants being used on both sleeves and headwear. Most in this case are leaf shaped. - Sheree/Brynn --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 14:40:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RIeBRM023580 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:40:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIdWYF005900 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:39:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIctlk022351; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:38:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIcnlk022208 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:38:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bef9.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.249]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8700326280E for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:38:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004301c47408$fd8a0da0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE:French Faille Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:39:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I am sorry about this misunderstanding. The catalog says it is faille not that it was called faille in 18th century. Isnt silk faille and grosgrain similar? There was a fabric wich was rather stiff and corded wich was called Gros de Tours. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Carlson" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 6:21 PM Subject: [h-cost] RE:French Faille > >From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" > >Hi Mark, > >I know of a dress from 1730 made of silk faille, so why not a century > >before? > > Normally I would agree -- but likely this may fall into one of those > academic "prove it" matches since we're trying to come up with a completely > unexpected interpretation for this term. That means I want to have all my > ducks in order when I definately that "French Falls" are a type of cloth > shoe. > > This dress, did they -call- it silk falle in 1730? > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 14:48:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RImORM023644 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:48:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIlCYF006724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:47:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIkalk028352; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:46:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web52703.mail.yahoo.com (web52703.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.154]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6RIkWlk028243 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:46:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladybriony@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040727184627.70261.qmail@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [137.201.242.130] by web52703.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:46:27 PDT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:46:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Valerie Robertson To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407271758.i6RHvulm088559@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Faille, French or otherwise X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Marc, try looking for references to taffeta or taffety. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by using a modern marketing term as the basis for your research, but you need to be looking for evidence of the fabric structure. If you look at faille, it's a warp-faced rep tabby, mostly made of rayon or other silk substitutes. "Warp-faced rep tabby" is a weaver's definition of taffeta and bears no relation to the plastic crap prom dresses are made of, although marketers label said plastic (plainweave, not repweave) crap as taffeta. Hence the danger of reading the label . Taffeta is referred to extensively in QEWU. Valerie Robertson Message: 11 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:21:50 -0500 From: "Marc Carlson" Subject: [h-cost] RE:French Faille To: h-costume@indra.com Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" >Hi Mark, >I know of a dress from 1730 made of silk faille, so why not a century >before? Normally I would agree -- but likely this may fall into one of those academic "prove it" matches since we're trying to come up with a completely unexpected interpretation for this term. That means I want to have all my ducks in order when I definately that "French Falls" are a type of cloth shoe. This dress, did they -call- it silk falle in 1730? Marc __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 14:53:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RIrnRM023675 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:53:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIrAYF007270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:53:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIqYlk032964; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:52:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f13.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.63]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RIqVlk032848 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:52:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:52:25 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:52:24 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:52:24 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2004 18:52:25.0175 (UTC) FILETIME=[DB58EE70:01C4740A] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: French Faille X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Robin Netherton >But in Marc's case, the issue is whether the *name* would have been used >for a fabric, not even what fabric it might refer to. He's looking for a >definition of a shoe term (French fall) that might be a reference to >"French faille." Exactly. And in this case, it's a straw I'm looking at hungrilly since it would make things REALLY simple and easy :) >Marc -- you might talk with Drea and Danielle. Both have been working >(separately) on c. 1600 inventories and other documents that are >chock-full of fabric names. The OED tends to miss early instances of >specialized costume terms, so I wouldn't rule out an early appearance even >if it's not in the OED. Oh, preaching - choir regrading the Oed. It's great for what it does, but what it don't do, it don't do real good too :) I think I can figure out some email addresses for them. Thank you. As an aside, in case anyone was curious - this term problems has been showing up for at least 30 years in other people's personal research, and I'm just getting tired of hearing "we don't know what it means" :) Marc _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 15:14:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RJEPRM023783 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:14:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RJDWYF009317 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:13:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RJCIlk048962; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:12:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51402.mail.yahoo.com (web51402.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.181]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6RJCElk048851 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:12:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ivycircle@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040727191209.31250.qmail@web51402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.240.42.251] by web51402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:12:09 PDT Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:12:09 -0700 (PDT) From: ~Angelique To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407271758.i6RHvulm088559@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Sachets for wardrobes Late Tudor/ Early Elizabethan X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am looking for information/documentation whether sachets were used in the tudor/elizabethan erasfor keeping clothing smelling fresh. What they were filled with, the designs of ect.... Thanks again, ~ Angelique --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 15:22:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RJMuRM023848 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:22:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RJMHYF010184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:22:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RJKrlk055880; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:20:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RJKolk055800 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:20:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7bef9.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.249]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id C1A96262832 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000701c4740e$e1a15f70$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040727184627.70261.qmail@web52703.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Faille, French or otherwise Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:21:13 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If you look at faille, it's a > warp-faced rep tabby, mostly made of rayon or other silk substitutes. > > "Warp-faced rep tabby" is a weaver's definition of taffeta and bears no > relation to the plastic crap prom dresses are made of, although marketers > label said plastic (plainweave, not repweave) crap as taffeta. Hence the > danger of reading the label . > > Taffeta is referred to extensively in QEWU. > > Valerie Robertson Vallerie i found this on the net wich visualises the description you made so clearly above. A black silk faille, you clearly sees the repweave http://www.woodlandfarmsantiques.com/ladies/victor-edward/ladyvicedpage7index.html Bjarne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 15:50:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RJo0RM023992 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:50:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RJnEYF012775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:49:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RJn5lk078621; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:49:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RJn0lk078585 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:49:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from [192.168.167.46] (helo=wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BpXwU-0008GX-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:48:54 -0400 Message-ID: <27361733.1090957734034.JavaMail.root@wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:48:54 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Bezants X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sheree wrote: >I've had some luck recently in making bezants. >I've used a soapstone mold to carve the pattern then burnished the >metal over the mold. > >The real trick in making the bezants is a good mold to work from. It needs to be >detailed but not too deep and take your time in the burnishing to pull out all >the details. Don't be afraid to go over the metal several times and get into >all the nooks and crannies. > >The metal is thin enough to be easily pierced with >a thick sewing needle so no prongs are needed. THANK you Briegette, Helen & Sheree! That's exactly the sort of information I've been looking for. I'm sufficiently clueless with metalwork that I didn't even really know what questions to ask. 26 or 28 gauge sheet brass -- right. I can get a bit of soapstone to work with at the pewter casting class this weekend. What makes a good "scribe" or embossing tool? I have one of those friendly neighborhood hardware stores that has EVERYthing (complete with nice helpful older guys in aprons who don't mind answering lots of questions :) about three blocks from where I work, and now that I know what to ask for, I'll give it a try. Thanks again! ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 17:07:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RL7DRM024867 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:07:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RL6VYF020762 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:06:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RL6Qlk043161; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:06:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.78]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RL6Nlk043121 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:06:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from purplkat@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.15]) by mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I1J00G3T3YWBU@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [167.206.5.71] (Forwarded-For: [167.206.224.2]) by mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mshttpd); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:06:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:06:20 -0400 From: purplkat@optonline.net Subject: Re: [h-cost] Ruffles and hems To: Historical Costume Message-id: <119f4a1163b5.1163b5119f4a@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ummm I'm being dense - What is the name of your store at Pennsic?? Katheryne who loves visiting merchants and leaving 'presents' of paper with engravings of presidents behind. ----- Original Message ----- From: JAMES OGILVIE > I will be leaving for > Pennsic in just over a week and, while I am mostly spending my time hunched over a computer, I'm logging books in the data base and corresponding with potential employees. (Other retailers have Christmas, I have Pennsic War, with probably 50% or more of my yearly business taking place in 12 days.) > > Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 17:20:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RLKnRM024972 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:20:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RLK6YF021920 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:20:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RLK3lk054551; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:20:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f20.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.70]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RLK1lk054433 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:20:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:19:51 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:19:51 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:19:51 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jul 2004 21:19:51.0946 (UTC) FILETIME=[746F0EA0:01C4741F] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Linen well blackened (cross posted) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO By the way, for those of you with long memories, there was a question long ago regarding quote about a gambeson made from "linen well blackened" that showed up in the Kings Mirror. I can not prove it -- but after some trial and error with a 16 layer linen pad, I am more convinced than ever that it's referring to pine tar pitch. It soaks into the linen beautifully and gives it a bit more stiffness (and contrary to popular opinion, isn't spectacularly flammable. It does catch after a while in the fire and then does burn forever, but it takes a bit to light). marc _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 17:30:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RLUuRM025087 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:30:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RLToYF022741 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:29:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RLTnlk062599; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:29:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RLTjlk062541 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:29:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jaurbik@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (ool-18bde58e.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.229.142]) by mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I1J000B950XKG@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:29:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:29:46 -0400 From: "J.A.Urbik" Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Any recommendations for steam iron besides Rowenta? In-reply-to: <2b.5d107cf1.2e37a707@aol.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <4106C94A.2000207@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) References: <2b.5d107cf1.2e37a707@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I would suggest looking on ebay for the same model. My husband swares by the Palm III c, (hates all the newer ones) and every time he or i kill ours (we do nasty things to them and use them all the time) he just goes to ebay and buys a new one. It seems likt the only place to find them since palm stoped making them :( Jordana AnnBWass@aol.com wrote: > I absolutely love my Norelco but, alas, they have quit making irons. > Arggggh! Don't know what I'm going to do when I need a new one. > I've been thinking about getting a commercial one, with the separate water > supply. The only trouble there is the lack of portability. > > Not real fond of Black & Decker or Rowenta, myself. > > Ann Wass > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 18:11:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6RMBORM025342 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:11:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RMAfYF026820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:10:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RMAalk094098; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:10:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.88]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6RMAVlk094032 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:10:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gawne@mac.com) Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id i6RMATfO008988 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [140.142.182.139] (cs202-36.fsmodem.washington.edu [140.142.182.139]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/smtpin08/MantshX 4.0) with ESMTP id i6RMA4Lv029316 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:10:11 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1309 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:17:40 -0700 From: Agnes Gawne To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407271337.i6RDb4lm083712@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6RMAVlk094032 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 586 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Marc - I checked the on-line OED here at the University and this is the listing and the period quotations:   1. A kind of head-dress. Obs.     1530 PALSGR. 218/2 Fayle, an upparmost garment of a woman. 1694 EARL OF PERTH Lett. (Camden) 30 A faille..is a great scarf of tafita for the best, and of worsted for others.       2. A light kind of ribbed silk fabric.   faille française has a larger rib than faille proper, being thus intermediate between this and Śottomaną. More recently the term wool faille has been applied to a kind of Śterryą.     1869 Le Follet, Feb., Faille is very fashionable for long dress. 1878-9 A. BARLOW Weaving 396 The most important of these manufactures comprise..ŚFaillesą, black. 1887 Yng. Ladies Jrnl. XXX. 122 The bonnet is of cream faille. 1888 Bow Bells Weekly 13 Jan., The train is in full folds of yellow tulle over yellow faille. 1889 Daily News 24 July 5/5 The finest and softest corded silk, of the sort known technically as faille française. --end quote So - it appears that Faille was used as early as 1530 but not in the same way we use faille today. on 7/27/04 6:37 AM, h-costume-request@indra.com at h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Marc Carlson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 6:39 AM > Subject: [h-cost] French Faille > > >> Ok, I'm liking this one alot, and more importantly so is the guy I'm doing >> the research for :) >> >> The OED only lists the term "Faille" as early as the 1860s. Is there some >> indication that it was used as a term for fabric as early as the 1660s? >> >> Marc >> _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 20:18:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S0IhRM026075 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:18:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S0HvYF009195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:17:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S0Hklk082527; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:17:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-dav7.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.10.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S0Hhlk082441 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:17:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:17:34 -0700 Received: from 63.149.20.62 by bay7-dav7.bay7.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:17:34 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [63.149.20.62] X-Originating-Email: [robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com] X-Sender: robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com From: "Kelly Dorman" To: Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:17:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 00:17:34.0980 (UTC) FILETIME=[4818EC40:01C47438] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] beadwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6S0IhRM026075 Status: RO Hello all, I seldom post (mostly lurk), but I have finally managed (with much help) to launch a website showing my beadwork. Constructive criticism from knowledgeable people such as yourselves would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you, Kelly Dorman Backward Glances www.backwardglances.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 20:35:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S0ZDRM026208 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:35:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S0XPYF010396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:33:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S0XOlk092093; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:33:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S0XKlk092032 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:33:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m220.in-tch.com [216.166.191.220]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6S0X9D08793 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:33:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4106F53D.2020208@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:37:17 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Silk Denim X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sending this link to y'all. Not actually a "denim," but a classic twill weave. Limited colors, but probably useful for some of us. --sue, trying to find a credit card that hasn't been melted into slag from recent fiber purchases ;o) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 22:29:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S2T8RM026976 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:29:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2SPYF018610 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:28:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2SLlk058305; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:28:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2SJlk058292 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:28:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BpeB0-00025g-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:28:19 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Linen well blackened (cross posted) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:28:33 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c4744a$94c5f620$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6S2SJlk058292 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Curious...what are you using the pad for? >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.c [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Marc Carlson >Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 2:20 PM >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: [h-cost] Linen well blackened (cross posted) > >By the way, for those of you with long memories, there was a question long >ago regarding quote about a gambeson made from "linen well blackened" that >showed up in the Kings Mirror. I can not prove it -- but after some trial >and error with a 16 layer linen pad, I am more convinced than ever that it's >referring to pine tar pitch. It soaks into the linen beautifully and gives >it a bit more stiffness (and contrary to popular opinion, isn't >spectacularly flammable. It does catch after a while in the fire and then >does burn forever, but it takes a bit to light). > >marc > >_________________________________________________________________ >Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! >http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 22:31:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S2VERM027013 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:31:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2UeYF018815 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:30:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2Uelk059687; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:30:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2UYlk059648 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:30:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BpeDC-0002SH-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:30:34 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Silk Denim Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:30:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c4744a$e55ebe50$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4106F53D.2020208@in-tch.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Have you handled this fabric? Do you like it? It feels and looks like denim to me.....what would you use it for? Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 22:50:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S2oARM027204 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:50:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2nYYF020109 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:49:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2nVlk070241; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:49:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2nTlk070206 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:49:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from alderweb@vaxxine.com) Received: from pc.vaxxine.com (ppp175.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.232.175]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2nEcg003774 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:49:24 -0400 (EDT) X-RCPT-To: Message-Id: <4.3.0.20040727224547.00ab4db0@pop.vaxxine.com> X-Sender: alderweb@vaxxine.com@pop.vaxxine.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:54:34 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: david webb In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Faille faillure? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello: There is an image of a pair of men's 18th c. faille slippers at the publishers of the last Kyoto book: http://www.taschen.com/pages/en/excerpts/fashion/show/4/43.htm This doesn't prove conclusively that faille was called faille or fall in the 18th century, (but it's still a neat image.) Sheridan Alder _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 22:57:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S2vMRM027234 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:57:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2uiYF020642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:56:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2uflk074350; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:56:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f12.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2uelk074283 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:56:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 19:56:34 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.18 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:56:34 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.18] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:56:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 02:56:34.0391 (UTC) FILETIME=[7E078670:01C4744E] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 586 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Agnes Gawne >...So - it appears that Faille was used as early as 1530 but not in the >same >way we use faille today. And it may be that this will turn out to be the case. If so it's back to square one. Set up a hypothesis and test it to failure or lack thereof :) Marc _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 22:57:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S2vORM027238 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:57:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2urYF020675 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:56:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2uqlk074437; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:56:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S2udlk074321 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:56:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kerowyn@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.245.77.86.dial1.stlouis1.level3.net ([4.245.77.86] helo=Dan) by smtp6.mindspring.com with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BpecK-0004TK-00; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:56:33 -0400 Message-ID: <013001c4744f$3dc6e5a0$8f13f504@Dan> From: "Genie" To: Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:01:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Gloves X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6S2vORM027238 Status: RO The new Vogue catalogue has a very nice glove pattern available #7949. G- Snow fallen on snow, and this evening, the full moon of November Basho _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Jul 27 23:28:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S3SkRM027474 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:28:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S3S0YF022918 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:28:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S3Rrlk091403; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:27:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from asmtp-a063f31.pas.sa.earthlink.net (asmtp-a063f31.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.120.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S3Rplk091376 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 21:27:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.155.57.107.dial1.baltimore1.level3.net ([4.155.57.107] helo=HELENPINTO) by asmtp-a063f31.pas.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bpf6c-0000ya-Kg for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:27:51 -0700 Message-ID: <00b501c47452$d9918730$6b399b04@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <27361733.1090957734034.JavaMail.root@wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bezants Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:27:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb702e37df12b9c9ef4e7bb4f8bc7381ad3ceaf6b0da068994350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.107 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Chris wrote: What makes a good "scribe" or embossing tool? There are scribing tools for embossing paper; these would work on thin sheet metal. There are tools for embossing copper foil that would also work. Another possibility are the burnishers for letter transfers. Basically, any small tool with a rounded end would. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 00:25:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S4PRRM027728 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:25:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S4OsYF027333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:24:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S4Odlk023353; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:24:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S4Oblk023335 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:24:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from alderweb@vaxxine.com) Received: from pc.vaxxine.com (ppp41.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.232.41]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S4OOcg021427 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:24:33 -0400 (EDT) X-RCPT-To: Message-Id: <4.3.0.20040728002837.00aba9c0@pop.vaxxine.com> X-Sender: alderweb@vaxxine.com@pop.vaxxine.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:28:44 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: david webb Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Faille- barking up wrong lingistic tree? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello again: My husband suggested that I check: Dorothy Burnham's "Warp and Weft: a textile terminology" - p. 200 " A type of cannelle with ribs of equal width on face and reverse...." Appendix 2: Specialized French Terms "These terms were included as an addendum in the 1964 vocabulary of the Centre Internal d'Etude des Textiles Anciens. Because there are no English equivalents and the terms are needed by those working with 18th century silk weaving, they are once again appended to the more usual and general English terms. For further information see F. Guicherd 1946 and 1957. The two Guicherd publications are; Cours de theorie de tissage: la soie, tissus unis p armures classiques. Lyons: Edititions Seve. 326 pp. and, Notes techniques qui seront developpees au seminaire de Septembre 1957. Lyons: Centre International d'Etude des Textiles Anciens. 37 pp. Now if some bilingual keener want to check them out...or maybe there might be a mention of "faille" in Diderot's Encyclopedie? So now we know at least that the French textile experts use "faille francaise" to describe 18th c. textiles, now we just need to find out if eighteenth century French people did. Sheridan Alder - '"Tell me that wasn't fun" - Master and Commander _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 01:34:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S5YtRM027969 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:34:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S5WoYF001645 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:32:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S5Wilk059589; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:32:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav22.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.52]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S5Walk059482 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:32:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:32:30 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav22.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:32:30 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: <119f4a1163b5.1163b5119f4a@optonline.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:32:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:32:32 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 05:32:30.0848 (UTC) FILETIME=[46E99000:01C47464] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Pennsic store X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6S5YtRM027969 Status: RO What is the name of your store at Pennsic?? Katheryne who loves visiting merchants and leaving 'presents' of paper with engravings of presidents behind. My store at Pennsic is Castle Furnishings, which, despite the name, sells books. I am in a big tent with 3 other booksellers. (Abandon your wallet, all ye who enter here!) This year I have some very nice archeology books (mostly British), Traditional Icelandic Embroidery (just out), sale copies of the Museum of the City of London's Medieval Households and more than the usual selection in Elizabethan theater and Heraldry. "The Usual" includes anything I can find at a reasonable price that I think would interest some person in the SCA. Janet who finds money easier to pack for the trip home than books (774 titles and still entering) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 01:35:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S5ZCRM027974 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 01:35:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S5XSYF001693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:33:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S5XQlk059987; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:33:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6S5XNlk059939 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:33:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-19503); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:33:20 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:33:20 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040727222119.01177d30@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:33:09 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sachets for wardrobes Late Tudor/ Early Elizabethan In-Reply-To: <20040727191209.31250.qmail@web51402.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200407271758.i6RHvulm088559@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 12:12 PM 7/27/2004 -0700, you wrote: >I am looking for information/documentation whether sachets were used in >the tudor/elizabethan erasfor keeping clothing smelling fresh. What they >were filled with, the designs of ect.... > >Thanks again, ~ Angelique In QEWU, Janet Arnold has a discussion on page 194 about the use of "swete bagges". This is in the chapter on The Queen's Artificers, specifically that part dealing with furs. From a warrent dated October 20, 1562, she quotes: 'one gross of Crimsen Sarsenet swete Bagges and viij lb of swete powder as well to make swete our Robes and apparell remayning within our Wardrobe of robes as also remayning within oure Tower of London all of our great warderobe.'` More detail is given on page 232 under Wardrobe care and storage. She quotes from the Michaelmas warrent of 1571: 'to John Wynneyarde for one Dossen of silke Bagges with a twiste of golde and silke lyned with lether; Two dossen of large fustian Bagges with a lase of Thred: and two dossen of lesser Bagges all being perfumed with Amber Muske Syvett and stufte with perfumed Cotten and sweete powder all of our greate Guarderobe'. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 02:25:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S6PmRM004532 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:25:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6P9YF004176 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:25:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6P9lk086918; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:25:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f20.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6Oglk086652 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:24:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:24:36 -0700 Received: from 66.25.125.118 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:24:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.125.118] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Gloves Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:24:36 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 06:24:36.0818 (UTC) FILETIME=[8E22BB20:01C4746B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/voguepatterns/shop.cgi?s.item.200007949=x&TI='7949'&pageNum=1&M=&UK=33555396 the layout in this magazine was pretty kewl. I flipped through it was I was in line at the grocery store Sunday. I put on my list for Vogue patterns are 75% off. Wilhelmina >From: "Genie" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: >CC: Historical Costume >Subject: [h-cost] Gloves >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:01:51 -0500 > >The new Vogue catalogue has a very nice glove pattern available #7949. > >G- > > > > >Snow fallen on snow, > and this evening, the full moon of November >Basho > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 02:26:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S6QaRM004823 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:26:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6OkYF004155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:24:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6Ohlk086706; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:24:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f16.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6Oglk086651 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:24:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:24:36 -0700 Received: from 66.25.125.118 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:24:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.125.118] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Gloves Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:24:36 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 06:24:36.0819 (UTC) FILETIME=[8E22E230:01C4746B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/voguepatterns/shop.cgi?s.item.200007949=x&TI='7949'&pageNum=1&M=&UK=33555396 the layout in this magazine was pretty kewl. I flipped through it was I was in line at the grocery store Sunday. I put on my list for Vogue patterns are 75% off. Wilhelmina >From: "Genie" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: >CC: Historical Costume >Subject: [h-cost] Gloves >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:01:51 -0500 > >The new Vogue catalogue has a very nice glove pattern available #7949. > >G- > > > > >Snow fallen on snow, > and this evening, the full moon of November >Basho > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 02:28:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S6RxRM005297 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:27:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6RPYF004303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:27:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6ROlk088070; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:27:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f40.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.40]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6RKlk087988 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:27:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:27:14 -0700 Received: from 66.25.125.118 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:27:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.125.118] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] beadwork Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:27:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 06:27:14.0436 (UTC) FILETIME=[EC155440:01C4746B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO can we get a link to the website? Wilhelmina >From: "Kelly Dorman" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: >Subject: [h-cost] beadwork >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:17:25 -0400 > >Hello all, > I seldom post (mostly lurk), but I have finally managed (with much help) >to launch a website showing my beadwork. Constructive criticism from >knowledgeable people such as yourselves would be gratefully appreciated. >Thank you, >Kelly Dorman >Backward Glances >www.backwardglances.net >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 02:30:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S6UIRM006076 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:30:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6RWYF004324 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:27:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6RVlk088134; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:27:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f1.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6RKlk087989 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:27:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:27:14 -0700 Received: from 66.25.125.118 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:27:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.125.118] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] beadwork Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:27:14 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 06:27:14.0425 (UTC) FILETIME=[EC13A690:01C4746B] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO can we get a link to the website? Wilhelmina >From: "Kelly Dorman" >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: >Subject: [h-cost] beadwork >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:17:25 -0400 > >Hello all, > I seldom post (mostly lurk), but I have finally managed (with much help) >to launch a website showing my beadwork. Constructive criticism from >knowledgeable people such as yourselves would be gratefully appreciated. >Thank you, >Kelly Dorman >Backward Glances >www.backwardglances.net >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 02:38:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S6cSRM008848 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:38:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6a3YF004619 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:36:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6Zjlk092527; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:35:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f28.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.28]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6Zglk092446 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:35:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:35:36 -0700 Received: from 66.25.125.118 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:35:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.125.118] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Sachets for wardrobes Late Tudor/ Early Elizabethan Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:35:36 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 06:35:36.0677 (UTC) FILETIME=[17713950:01C4746D] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/herbs/scents.html try here.. Wilhelmina >From: ~Angelique >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: [h-cost] Sachets for wardrobes Late Tudor/ Early Elizabethan >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:12:09 -0700 (PDT) > > >I am looking for information/documentation whether sachets were used in the >tudor/elizabethan erasfor keeping clothing smelling fresh. What they were >filled with, the designs of ect.... > >Thanks again, ~ Angelique > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 02:39:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S6dDRM009058 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:39:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6bQYF004694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:37:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6bOlk093393; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:37:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f26.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.26]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S6Zglk092445 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:35:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:35:36 -0700 Received: from 66.25.125.118 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:35:36 GMT X-Originating-IP: [66.25.125.118] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Sachets for wardrobes Late Tudor/ Early Elizabethan Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:35:36 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 06:35:36.0552 (UTC) FILETIME=[175E2680:01C4746D] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/herbs/scents.html try here.. Wilhelmina >From: ~Angelique >Reply-To: Historical Costume >To: h-costume@indra.com >Subject: [h-cost] Sachets for wardrobes Late Tudor/ Early Elizabethan >Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 12:12:09 -0700 (PDT) > > >I am looking for information/documentation whether sachets were used in the >tudor/elizabethan erasfor keeping clothing smelling fresh. What they were >filled with, the designs of ect.... > >Thanks again, ~ Angelique > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 04:16:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S8GNRM010142 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:16:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S8FkYF008982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:15:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S8Fglk045057; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:15:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S8Felk044964 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:15:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from triade@kabelfoon.nl) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0997.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.230]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DAAC318FE8 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:15:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <410760A3.5040101@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:15:31 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO When I was looking at eBay I saw a lot of clothing that they call Lolita. It is often used for cute sexy short dresses I was wondering what it means and where it comes from. Greetings, Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 05:01:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S91VRM027070 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:01:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S90uYF010503 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:00:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S90slk067458; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:00:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S90plk067434 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:00:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:59:38 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] expertist and expertise... To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFD2@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] expertist and expertise... Thread-Index: AcR0A5oF6cvprCx3Q+6HCA054yOl8AAfVA5w content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I don't try to dissuade folks... I just tell them flat > out. "Well sure I can help you out, but I am by no means an > expert" If they think I am being self-effacing, whatever, that's their mental > mechanics - not mine. Well, yes, but I still find it a little scary if they continue in the belief. Good luck with the bezants research! Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 05:18:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6S9I1RM027864 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:18:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S9HJYF011360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:17:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S9HGlk075486; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:17:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6S9HDlk075463 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:17:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:16:08 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFD3@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval Thread-Index: AcR0JwFSSyBMrVaISSmRB8OI2NfGQAAW1itA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello Jean, > Apologies if I've missed a previous post. Do you mean you > are holding up separate leg hose with a pourpoint (-ish thing)? Yes > For what period, 15th century > and can you point me at some sources? (this may be really well known, > it's just between the periods I've done). Not off the top of my head, though someone else here may be able to help. I know there are a couple of 15th century examples in Italian paintings ( I know, not necessarily translatable to English useage) shown in the Dress in Italian Painting 1460 -1500 - but it's a t home and I'm at work. They are usually shown in physical/fight settings (well dressed archers and people in battle). If I remember tongiht, I can look it up (that's a big "if", I'm likely to forget about it entirely until the next time I look at h-costume-digest) > Are the hose just thigh-length and suspended from a point at the front, or are they > growing towards joining up? Growing towards joining up. In fact they are cut exactly the same way as my joined hose but aren't joined. My current pair were completely seperate for a couple of seasons, then I experimented with joining them at the back for a couple of inches down from the waist edge, which seems to have been a mistake as they tend to either pop-stitches or tear the fabric at the point where the stitching finishes and the gap starts. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 06:16:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SAGPRM028254 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:16:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SAFcYF013685 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:15:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SAFWlk004056; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:15:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm43.prodigy.net (ylpvm43-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SAFSlk004031 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:15:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-82-82.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.82.82]) by ylpvm43.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SAEpj3008576 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:15:14 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040728024813.019b76f0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:49:20 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] More than you ever want to know about bananas In-Reply-To: <031901c46dbf$776f71f0$ac399b04@HELENPINTO> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >> In Dangerous Beauty, the protagonist eats a banana. I know bananas appear >in >> botanical books of the period, but I was under the impression that they >> hadn't reached Europe by the 16th C. (I know this is not the best list for >> this, but I don't want to subscribe to a food list just to ask one >> question). Can anyone confirm this? Is it a mistake? I used to have a reprint of an Italian book about plants, from the late 1400s, showing bananas being harvested. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 06:18:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SAIdRM028273 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:18:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SAGqYF013760 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:16:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SAGplk004816; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:16:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm43.prodigy.net (ylpvm43-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SAGZlk004576 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:16:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-82-82.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.82.82]) by ylpvm43.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SAEpj7008576 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:16:21 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040728031632.01903240@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 03:17:00 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves In-Reply-To: <013001c4744f$3dc6e5a0$8f13f504@Dan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >The new Vogue catalogue has a very nice glove pattern available #7949. Only for stretch fabrics, not for leather, sigh. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 06:24:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SAOmRM028339 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:24:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SAMwYF014122 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:22:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SAMtlk007894; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:22:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp104.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com (smtp104.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.36.82]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SAMrlk007841 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 04:22:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Received: from unknown (HELO 39jz301) (nicolaa@rogers.com@69.195.101.205 with login) by smtp104.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jul 2004 10:22:47 -0000 Message-ID: <007e01c4748c$d4e33500$cd65c345@39jz301> From: "Susan Carroll-Clark" To: "Historical Costume" References: <410760A3.5040101@kabelfoon.nl> Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:22:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > When I was looking at eBay I saw a lot of clothing that they call Lolita. > It is often used for cute sexy short dresses > I was wondering what it means and where it comes from. I would assume from Nabakov's book? "Lolita" tells the story of an older man's affair with a sexually premature teenaged girl. If I heard the term applied to a dress, I would immediately think of something that looks like a schoolgirl might wear it, but with the specific intent to be sexy or provocative. Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 07:33:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SBXRRM028846 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:33:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SBWnYF017108 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:32:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SBWilk043244; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:32:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pimout2-ext.prodigy.net (pimout2-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.101]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SBWflk043211 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:32:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from casamai@sbcglobal.net) Received: from casamai (adsl-66-138-143-225.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net [66.138.143.225]) by pimout2-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SBWeUK016892 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:32:40 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c47496$ba1262a0$0a01a8c0@sbcglobal.net> From: "Bruce & Nora Mai" To: "Historical Costume" References: <410760A3.5040101@kabelfoon.nl> Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:32:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It's often used to refer to a particular style of dress worn by young Japanese women - Gothic Lolitas. It's kind of french maid meets Alice in Wondrland. Lots of frills; think of a Victorian Doll gone slightly wrong. It's often seen in conjunction with Cosplayers but isn't actually related. And, yes, I presume the "Lolita" part of the name comes from Nabokov. Nora ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deredere Galbraith" > When I was looking at eBay I saw a lot of clothing that they call Lolita. > It is often used for cute sexy short dresses > I was wondering what it means and where it comes from. > Greetings, > Deredere _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 08:04:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SC4uRM029102 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:04:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SC4JYF018724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:04:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SC4Glk059748; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:04:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SC4Elk059733 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:04:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hbgd103@soton.ac.uk) Received: from modem-1727.buffalo.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.70.191] helo=soton.ac.uk) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1BpnAL-0003So-Sy for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:04:14 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:09:13 +0100 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Hilary Davidson To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <4.1.20040728031632.01903240@mail.frys.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Is it a problem getting patterns for leather gloves? > > Only for stretch fabrics, not for leather, sigh. > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 08:37:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SCb5RM029456 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:37:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SCZ5YF020919 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:35:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SCZ2lk076445; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:35:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SCYxlk076406 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:34:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-40-126.jps.net ([209.165.40.126] helo=KALC) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bpne5-0001Dt-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:34:58 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] beadwork Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:34:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO What a wonderful little website and business you have developed! Those bags are beautiful!! Best wishes to you and your endevours. Lisa Sinervo -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On Behalf Of Kelly Dorman Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 5:17 PM To: h-costume@net.indra.com Subject: [h-cost] beadwork Hello all, I seldom post (mostly lurk), but I have finally managed (with much help) to launch a website showing my beadwork. Constructive criticism from knowledgeable people such as yourselves would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you, Kelly Dorman Backward Glances www.backwardglances.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 08:49:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SCnwRM029602 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:49:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SCnDYF021701 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:49:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SCnClk084101; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:49:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-dav1.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.10.105]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SCnAlk084022 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:49:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 05:49:04 -0700 Received: from 63.149.20.37 by bay7-dav1.bay7.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:49:04 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [63.149.20.37] X-Originating-Email: [robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com] X-Sender: robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com From: "Kelly Dorman" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:48:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 12:49:04.0812 (UTC) FILETIME=[43BB46C0:01C474A1] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] beadwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6SCnwRM029602 Status: RO >can we get a link to the website? >Wilhelmina www.backwardglances.net Sorry, I put in my signature line. Kelly _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 08:53:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SCrHRM029647 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:53:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SCqOYF021829 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:52:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SCqMlk085829; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:52:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SCqKlk085805 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:52:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6SCqI2G018623 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040728085144.01af57c0@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:52:23 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bezants In-Reply-To: <00b501c47452$d9918730$6b399b04@HELENPINTO> References: <27361733.1090957734034.JavaMail.root@wamui08.slb.atl.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Good ideas... I use a Japanese style chopstick... ; > Bridgette >Chris wrote: > What makes a good "scribe" or embossing tool? > >There are scribing tools for embossing paper; these would work on thin sheet >metal. There are tools for embossing copper foil that would also work. >Another possibility are the burnishers for letter transfers. Basically, any >small tool with a rounded end would. > -Helen/Aidan > Mari Stewart College of Veterinary Medicine Cornell University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 09:13:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SDDCRM029866 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:13:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SDCcYF022675 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:12:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SDCZlk097432; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:12:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53009.mail.yahoo.com (web53009.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.199]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SDCWlk097363 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:12:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from aureliarufinia@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040728131227.25003.qmail@web53009.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [18.152.7.245] by web53009.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:12:27 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 06:12:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Aurelia Rufinia To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200407280638.i6S6cBlm093814@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Silk Denim X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, sure! They get this is right AFTER I decided that I wasn;t going to find a silk that i liked and when with something else for the Byzantine From Hell project! Ah well. The fabric I'm getting matches the mosaic better. Aurelia > > Sending this link to y'all. Not actually a "denim," > but a classic twill > weave. Limited colors, but probably useful for some > of us. > --sue, trying to find a credit card that hasn't been > melted into slag > from recent fiber purchases ;o) > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 09:48:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SDmXRM030246 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:48:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SDkXYF024702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:46:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SDkPlk018059; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:46:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SDkKlk018021 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:46:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m33.in-tch.com [216.166.191.33]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6SDkCD05706 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:46:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4107AF1E.9050500@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:50:22 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk Denim References: <000e01c4744a$e55ebe50$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000e01c4744a$e55ebe50$6a01a8c0@SG01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO No, I haven't handled it or used it at all. I'm on the store's email list, and the link came across in one yesterday, as part of a special sale. You say you've handled it--what do you mean when you say it "feels like denim?" Stiff? Heavy? An obvious twill? I'm not quite sure what I'd use it for--perhaps a really luxurious gown for a Norse outfit, or one of the earlier periods (12th c., maybe?) I don't think it's heavy enough, from the description, to be used for something like a fitted gown....Robin, what do you think? Being silk, it would dye okay if you wanted to overdye it to get a more appropriate color. Basically, I know that a lots of folks have the same problems finding natural fibers that I do, and thought I'd pass on the link in case it could be of use to anyone! --sue Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > Have you handled this fabric? Do you like it? It feels and looks like > denim to me.....what would you use it for? > > Sg > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 10:25:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SEPpRM030591 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:25:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SEOpYF028389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:24:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SENllk043539; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:23:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SEMelk042688 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:22:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp02.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.122]) by smtpout06.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABASRPV5ADFZUY2 for (sender ); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10387 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2004 14:20:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.16.14) by smtp02.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 28 Jul 2004 14:20:48 -0000 Message-ID: <004001c474ae$0c3bbe70$0e10bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] beadwork Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:17:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ContentStamp: 8:4:1958773136 X-MAIL-INFO: 33a56481e54d99a5e0e5a9ad0090b06440adf1b0218de0b0f9a9a075157550a4b451657599c499c93194c1b46d318965a1b4c4890d211d89417df41984195d250415341979f579557471e104017405347004f5059050a9b1a951fd2451fda431fda431904dcd9120a5e1d4e1e5f149e4f0e18d657d301530191185191174341174 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55ofvTOEywMMolJ5jtaDgmHGWeTjpUYHR5sZ Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO What a beautiful website, and incredible beading work. Your lovely bags take my breath away. I am very uninformed in this area, would you please explain the use of the bags with the "perfume bottle" openings. They are absolutely gorgeous to look upon, but I'm afraid I don't understand how to use one, or is the top an illusion. I believe one was titled, "Winter Water". Congratulations on an incredibly well done site. Susy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Dorman" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 8:17 PM Subject: [h-cost] beadwork Hello all, I seldom post (mostly lurk), but I have finally managed (with much help) to launch a website showing my beadwork. Constructive criticism from knowledgeable people such as yourselves would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you, Kelly Dorman Backward Glances www.backwardglances.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 11:01:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SF1sRM030991 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:01:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SF00YF004392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:00:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SExqlk072700; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:59:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fed1rmmtao01.cox.net (fed1rmmtao01.cox.net [68.230.241.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SExglk072535 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:59:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mudsleidi@cox.net) Received: from smtp.west.cox.net ([172.18.180.53]) by fed1rmmtao01.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02.01 201-2131-111-104-103-20040709) with SMTP id <20040728145934.RTQR11405.fed1rmmtao01.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:59:34 -0400 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.15 (webedge20-101-1103-20040528) From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] Patterns on CD Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:59:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040728145934.RTQR11405.fed1rmmtao01.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes! ::raising hand enthusiastically to show interest:: Heidi ============================================================ I suppose I could sell them on the H-Costume sale thingy...(still need my coffee) Would there be enough interest for me to do this? -- Slan go foill Elena (Emer) nic Tighearnaigh _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 11:08:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SF84RM031067 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:08:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SF6FYF005621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:06:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SF6Clk077991; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:06:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f5.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SF68lk077877 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:06:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:04:42 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:04:42 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:04:42 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 15:04:42.0281 (UTC) FILETIME=[360A8190:01C474B4] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE:Linen well blackened (cross posted) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" >Curious...what are you using the pad for? It's part of a series of experiments testing various sorts of armor against medievel style arrowheads. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 11:15:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SFFKRM031122 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:15:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFEVYF007298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:14:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFETlk085005; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:14:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from quartz.stoneage.mglarc.com ([212.17.54.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SFEMll084799 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:14:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lstrid@mglarc.com) Received: from oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com ([10.10.1.22]) by quartz.stoneage.mglarc.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.0.59) with SMTP id M2004072816161929853 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:16:19 +0100 Received: by oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <3YQCKJ76>; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:11:47 +0100 Message-ID: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A64E7@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> From: Lena Strid To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] RE:Linen well blackened (cross posted) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:11:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6SFEMll084799 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Interesting. Please keep us posted on the results. /Lena -----Original Message----- From: Marc Carlson [mailto:marccarlson20@hotmail.com] Sent: 28 July 2004 16:05 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] RE:Linen well blackened (cross posted) >From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" >Curious...what are you using the pad for? It's part of a series of experiments testing various sorts of armor against medievel style arrowheads. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ================================================= Margaret Gowen & Co. Ltd. Archaeological Consultants & Project Managers 2 Killiney View Tel: 01-2300433 Albert Road Lower Fax: 01-2300865 Glenageary e-mail: archaeology@mglarc.com Co. Dublin website: http://www.mglarc.com ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is private and confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you are not named above as an addressee it may be unlawful for you to read, copy, distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this email. If you are not the intended recipient of this email please contact our systems administrator. Thank you. NOTE Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its associated companies unless otherwise specifically stated. This email message has passed through a "Symantec Mail Security for SMTP" server and has been checked for both virus and spam content. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 11:15:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SFFfRM031125 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:15:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFExYF007397 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:14:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFEwlk085402; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:14:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f28.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.78]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFEplk085213 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:14:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:14:44 -0700 Received: from 129.244.6.162 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:14:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.162] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:14:44 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 15:14:44.0715 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D1EA3B0:01C474B5] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: What means the word lolita?? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Deredere Galbraith >Subject: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? >When I was looking at eBay I saw a lot of clothing that they call Lolita. >It is often used for cute sexy short dresses >I was wondering what it means and where it comes from. Since a simple web search for the term turns up an interesting array of porn sites, I'd have to go with the "something to make a woman look like a sexy young (underage) thing..." line... Marc _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 11:16:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SFGbRM031134 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:16:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFEfYF007335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:14:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFEflk085151; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:14:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFERlk084979 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:14:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10040 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:19:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:19:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? In-Reply-To: <007e01c4748c$d4e33500$cd65c345@39jz301> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > I would assume from Nabakov's book? "Lolita" tells the story of an > older man's affair with a sexually premature teenaged girl. If I > heard the term applied to a dress, I would immediately think of > something that looks like a schoolgirl might wear it, but with the > specific intent to be sexy or provocative. Susan is correct. Further elaboration: "Lolita" has been a code word for many years (as in, pre-Internet) for po.rn (I'm trying to avoid spam filters here) involving young girls, e.g. "Lolita videos." I assume that the term has migrated into costuming from the fetish community. There's quite a brisk business in costumes for sex purposes -- including sexy maids, nurses, schoolteachers, and schoolgirls. Many businesses that provide costumes for Halloween, role-playing games, and so forth find that there's plenty of money to be had in catering as well to fetishwear, so the advertising descriptions will include search terms that are common in those communities. I first became aware of this overlap in the 1980s, when I sent off for a lingerie catalog that advertised that it fit large sizes. (I need bras in sizes that aren't usually in stores.) The catalog had plenty of perfectly ordinary-looking lingerie, but a large chunk of its pages were devoted to things like sexy nightgowns, garter belts and stockings, and also shoes -- mostly high heels and fancy mules in extra-large sizes. Apparently the retailer did a lot of business with *men* quietly mail-ordering women's things that would fit them. The amusing side effect of this was that over the next couple of years, my address migrated to several other mailing lists, and I found myself getting catalogs with elaborate fetishwear, vinyl catsuits, schoolgirl and maid outfits, and so on, along with sex aids and toys. I think I still have a few of these catalogs in a box somewhere. When I was doing sf costuming, they were useful for ideas on support engineering with unusual effects. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 11:30:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SFUHRM031243 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:30:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFSOYF009771 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:28:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFSMlk097097; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:28:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFSGlk096991 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:28:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10192 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:33:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:33:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk Denim In-Reply-To: <4107AF1E.9050500@in-tch.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Sue Clemenger wrote: > No, I haven't handled it or used it at all. I'm on the store's email > list, and the link came across in one yesterday, as part of a special sale. > You say you've handled it--what do you mean when you say it "feels like > denim?" Stiff? Heavy? An obvious twill? > I'm not quite sure what I'd use it for--perhaps a really luxurious gown > for a Norse outfit, or one of the earlier periods (12th c., maybe?) I > don't think it's heavy enough, from the description, to be used for > something like a fitted gown....Robin, what do you think? I haven't looked at the link, but I'm guessing it's a spun (not reeled) silk, meaning it is made from short silk fibers and is slightly rough or "raw" rather than smooth and shiny. Historically, during the fitted dress period, I'm given to understand that spun silks would have been available only in the areas in which siklks were manufactured (e.g. in Italy); they were made from the waste fibers and were not considered particularly good fabric. I made a fitted dress from a spun silk bengaline that was on the smooth side, because it had the right weight and was really rich-looking. (Sue, this is the burgundy-red dress you saw me wear.) It was functional -- looked good, breathed well -- but in wear, it suffered badly at any point of rubbing, particularly under the arms. Spun silk is not that durable. Since it's almost impossible to find a reeled silk of reasonable weight, I think a very smooth spun silk would be considered a reasonable substitution in many cases; it depends on your goals and your desired level of authenticity. However, it has its drawbacks. Overall, I think if you can get a good wool, that's a better use of the money -- more durable, and easier to work with in the sewing process. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 11:54:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SFsvRM031457 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:54:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFsDYF014110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:54:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFs9lk019986; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:54:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFs4lk019884 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:54:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bpqki-0007Y3-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:54:00 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Silk Denim Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:54:16 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c474bb$22e5ac00$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <4107AF1E.9050500@in-tch.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6SFs4lk019884 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've received several small samples of it from the Fabric Club (Fashion Fabrics?). Anyway, it is rather stiff, maybe a little thinner than regular denim and has that slightly fuzziness. I didn't have enough to wash to see what would happen to it, but would definitely order a little before ordering a lot to see how it would drape after being washed. It didn't have an obvious twill weave to me, but then I am not real sure I know what that looks like. (To me twill has sort of a herringbone stitch-which I am sure is not right) But take a look at some new jeans. You know how it almost looks like there are little specks of white on top? That is what this stuff looks like to me. I dismissed it right away because it was my understanding that this weave is not period (Just something I was told many moons ago...not something I have researched) and I didn't care for the look or the hand. I'd definitely go with Robin's recommendation or look for a silk/linen blend or silk/wool. Last time I looked both FashionFabricClub and Phoenix Textiles had some in nice colors. I have some of both and they are fabulous. The silk linen blend would be really cool to over dye. I also have some wool and silk Askyleene (spelling is wrong and I can't find it right now on the net), that is interesting. It is probably a high end upholstery fabric which is like shantung on one side and is matte on the other. It feels weird at first because it is a little stiff, but washes up into a nice drapable fabric with more substance. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 12:02:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SG2KRM031587 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:02:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SG0IYF014964 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:00:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SG0Flk025259; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:00:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hiram.io.com (root@hiram.io.com [199.170.88.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SG09lk025178 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:00:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from webmail.io.com (IDENT:hb17wr4x3UepOLlC0uM0+YbSAxu+4qAN@columbia.io.com [199.170.88.107]) by hiram.io.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6SG09u01093 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:00:09 -0500 Received: from webmail.io.com (webmail [127.0.0.1]) by webmail.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6SG09bh017972 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:00:09 -0500 Received: (from apache@localhost) by webmail.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id i6SG0935017969; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:00:09 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: webmail.io.com: apache set sender to chiara@io.com using -f Received: from 63.119.218.166 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ches) by webmail.io.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:00:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <30239.63.119.218.166.1091030409.squirrel@webmail.io.com> In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20040728031632.01903240@mail.frys.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:00:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves From: "Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, Vogue pattern 7949: F ,G, and I;(http://store.sewingtoday.com/cat/add_img/7949.gif), work for Leather or any non-stretch material you want to use. :) I will be teaching a class on how to use this specific pattern and alter it to be suitable for a specific time period. But the students will need to go and get the pattern themselves for the class. Given enough notice I am willing to teach this anywhere I can travel to reasonably. Chiara www.glove.org Hilary Davidson said: > Is it a problem getting patterns for leather gloves? >> >> Only for stretch fabrics, not for leather, sigh. >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 12:03:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SG3JRM031605 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:03:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFvCYF014507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:57:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFvAlk022441; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:57:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SFuxlk022226 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:56:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from someone@eskimo.com) Received: from bently (c-24-19-168-204.client.comcast.net[24.19.168.204]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <200407281556510130027dm4e>; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:56:52 +0000 Message-ID: <001701c473f3$629cb1e0$2a02a8c0@Belkin> From: "Pam and David" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] beadwork Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:04:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I tried my best, but I couldn't find anything to be critical of! Lovely website, lovely work. Pam Dotson Everett, WA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Dorman" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: [h-cost] beadwork > Hello all, > I seldom post (mostly lurk), but I have finally managed (with much help) to launch a website showing my beadwork. Constructive criticism from knowledgeable people such as yourselves would be gratefully appreciated. > Thank you, > Kelly Dorman > Backward Glances > www.backwardglances.net > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 12:13:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SGD9RM031727 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:13:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGCUYF016167 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:12:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGCQlk035407; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:12:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SGCNlk035295 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:12:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/Ol+/RhSOYooSxf17tOYJ1Lk= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J3MXERDN; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:11:57 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:09:43 -0700 Message-ID: <20040728.091045.248.18.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,6-86 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: cley@juno.com Subject: [h-cost] commedia del'arte costumes & resources X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO FWD from one of the An Tir Laurels. Owen was recognized for his work in the field. Arlys On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 18:06:36 -0700 "Andrew" writes: > Greetings from Owen the Merry - > > A good overall book for researching Commedia is The Italian Comedy > by Pierre > Louis Ducharte (Dover Publications) Originally published in 1929 > and > republished in 1929. The book reprints many period illustrations > including > a large section of the Recueil Fossard -- a 16th century set of > illustrations. Unfortunately, the book is entirely in black and > white, no > color pictures. The book also spends a lot of pages discussing the > individual Commedia characters and the history of the art. > > The Theatre: A Concise History by Phyllis Hartnol (Thames and > Hudson, 1968) > contains a color reproduction of an oil painting, circa 1580, > depicting > Arlechino and Pantelone on stage. > > Maurice Sand's The History of the Harlequinade (Martin Secker, > London, 1916) > is frequently referenced by other books I've read (including > Ducharte if I > remember correctly) and is probably a good source of information, > but the > illustrations are by Sand himself and are not period. > > I have a note that Winifred Smith's The Comedia dell' Arte reprints > oil > paintings by Johann Rudolf Byss (1660- 1738), but without finding > the book > again I don't know what exactly they illustrate or if they are in > color. > > Is this a good start? > > Cheers, > O the M > > > --- Cynthia J Ley wrote: > > > To: antir-laurels@antir.sca.org > > > CC: Cley@juno.com > > > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:18:07 -0700 > > > From: Cynthia J Ley > > > Subject: [antir-laurels] commedia del'arte costumes > > > & resources > > > > > > Another list i belong to has been having a > > > discussion re: resources for > > > information on Commedia dell Arte and its characters > > > and costumes. If > > > anyone has any pointers, could you please send them > > > to me off list so I > > > can pass them on? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Arlys > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno > > > SpeedBand! > > > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up > > > today! > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > antir-laurels-unsubscribe@antir.sca.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > antir-laurels-help@antir.sca.org > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 12:33:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SGX0RM031929 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:33:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGWEYF018277 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:32:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGWDlk052719; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:32:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (pimout5-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.73]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGWAlk052610 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:32:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gpalmer@freeshell.org) Received: from hieronymous.freeshell.org (adsl-69-212-106-248.dsl.chmpil.ameritech.net [69.212.106.248]) by pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGW74H290884 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:32:07 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040728113631.028518c8@mail.freeshell.org> X-Sender: gpalmer@mail.freeshell.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:37:42 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: Grace Palmer Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? In-Reply-To: <410760A3.5040101@kabelfoon.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO As well as the book, which others have already mentioned, in the case of the clothing they may also be referring to the Japanese fashion style called Elegant Gothic Lolita (which migrated somehow from the context of the book) and looks a bit like goth Alice in Wonderland. Grace At 10:15 AM 7/28/2004 +0200, you wrote: >When I was looking at eBay I saw a lot of clothing that they call Lolita. >It is often used for cute sexy short dresses >I was wondering what it means and where it comes from. >Greetings, > Deredere > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Art by Grace D. Palmer http://gpalmer.freeshell.org http://grace.epilogue.net http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/g/r/grace _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 12:36:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SGaRRM031961 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:36:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGUnYF018109 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:30:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGUilk051342; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:30:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pelian.kabelfoon.nl (pelian.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.46.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGUflk051243 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:30:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from triade@kabelfoon.nl) Received: from kabelfoon.nl (kf-ijss-cb01-0997.dial.kabelfoon.nl [62.45.83.230]) by pelian.kabelfoon.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45EA1319435 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:30:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4107D4AB.7050303@kabelfoon.nl> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:30:35 +0200 From: Deredere Galbraith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? References: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks! That makes it much clearer. But I don't think it would be the right term for japanese anime dresses. Because they are more intended to make the "person" look young, cute and innocent than to make them look sexy. At least in the series I like. ;-) But on the other hand most girls that recreate such dresses from japanese anime don't look innocent at all...... And maby want to look sexy in them... Wich makes me wonder what would happen if I make the dress I like... http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Chii/Chii.html I am wondering how much anime has an influense on japanese people, and on the clothing they wear. Hopefully I will go to Japan in 2006 so maby I will be able to get an idea, and of course see the kyoto museum :-) :-) Greetings, Deredere Robin Netherton wrote: >On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > > > >>I would assume from Nabakov's book? "Lolita" tells the story of an >>older man's affair with a sexually premature teenaged girl. If I >>heard the term applied to a dress, I would immediately think of >>something that looks like a schoolgirl might wear it, but with the >>specific intent to be sexy or provocative. >> >> > >Susan is correct. Further elaboration: "Lolita" has been a code word for >many years (as in, pre-Internet) for po.rn (I'm trying to avoid spam >filters here) involving young girls, e.g. "Lolita videos." I assume that >the term has migrated into costuming from the fetish community. There's >quite a brisk business in costumes for sex purposes -- including sexy >maids, nurses, schoolteachers, and schoolgirls. Many businesses that >provide costumes for Halloween, role-playing games, and so forth find that >there's plenty of money to be had in catering as well to fetishwear, so >the advertising descriptions will include search terms that are common in >those communities. > >I first became aware of this overlap in the 1980s, when I sent off for a >lingerie catalog that advertised that it fit large sizes. (I need bras in >sizes that aren't usually in stores.) The catalog had plenty of perfectly >ordinary-looking lingerie, but a large chunk of its pages were devoted to >things like sexy nightgowns, garter belts and stockings, and also shoes -- >mostly high heels and fancy mules in extra-large sizes. Apparently the >retailer did a lot of business with *men* quietly mail-ordering women's >things that would fit them. > >The amusing side effect of this was that over the next couple of years, my >address migrated to several other mailing lists, and I found myself >getting catalogs with elaborate fetishwear, vinyl catsuits, schoolgirl and >maid outfits, and so on, along with sex aids and toys. I think I still >have a few of these catalogs in a box somewhere. When I was doing sf >costuming, they were useful for ideas on support engineering with unusual >effects. > >--Robin > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 12:45:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SGj1RM032037 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:45:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGhEYF019506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:43:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGhClk066422; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:43:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from GW2.webcontrolcenter.com (gw2.webcontrolcenter.com [216.119.106.221]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGhAlk066391 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:43:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jeanine@woollycat.net) Received: from mail6.crystaltech.com [216.119.106.79] by GW2.webcontrolcenter.com with SMTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:42:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:41:47 -0700 From: "Jeanine Swick" To: Message-ID: <38dcd067a5834e7b9368dc2d4644dfc5@woollycat.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] re: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 590 /embossing tools X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Original Message: You probably can use cuticle sticks also. The ones with both a pointed and blunt ends, the wood is firm but no so that it would damage the metal. Having the two differnt ends will give you more options for working the metal. I remember using items similar when doing the copper embossing projects with kids at GScamp. Jeanine in MA (coming out of lurk mode) >Message: 12 >Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:52:23 -0400 >From: M Stewart >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bezants >To: Historical Costume >Message-ID: > <5.2.1.1.2.20040728085144.01af57c0@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >Good ideas... I use a Japanese style chopstick... ; > Bridgette > >>Chris wrote: >> What makes a good "scribe" or embossing tool? >> >>There are scribing tools for embossing paper; these would work on thin sheet >>metal. There are tools for embossing copper foil that would also work. >>Another possibility are the burnishers for letter transfers. Basically, any >>small tool with a rounded end would. >> -Helen/Aidan >> > >Mari Stewart >College of Veterinary Medicine >Cornell University > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 12:59:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SGxCRM032164 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:59:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGv4YF020937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:57:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGuulk077726; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:56:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav12.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SGuplk077571 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:56:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:34:09 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.74 by bay1-dav12.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:34:09 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.74] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:34:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 16:34:09.0648 (UTC) FILETIME=[B53DB700:01C474C0] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO *coff* Blushing hard as all get out here but I tend to wear what they call "lolita" or kinderwhore. It tends towards the skirts and such and isn't so much a role play as a sliver of the goth community that isn't into the dark side. eBay V.C. Andrews Books!! Glove Making Book http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Netherton" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > > > I would assume from Nabakov's book? "Lolita" tells the story of an > > older man's affair with a sexually premature teenaged girl. If I > > heard the term applied to a dress, I would immediately think of > > something that looks like a schoolgirl might wear it, but with the > > specific intent to be sexy or provocative. > > Susan is correct. Further elaboration: "Lolita" has been a code word for > many years (as in, pre-Internet) for po.rn (I'm trying to avoid spam > filters here) involving young girls, e.g. "Lolita videos." I assume that > the term has migrated into costuming from the fetish community. There's > quite a brisk business in costumes for sex purposes -- including sexy > maids, nurses, schoolteachers, and schoolgirls. Many businesses that > provide costumes for Halloween, role-playing games, and so forth find that > there's plenty of money to be had in catering as well to fetishwear, so > the advertising descriptions will include search terms that are common in > those communities. > > I first became aware of this overlap in the 1980s, when I sent off for a > lingerie catalog that advertised that it fit large sizes. (I need bras in > sizes that aren't usually in stores.) The catalog had plenty of perfectly > ordinary-looking lingerie, but a large chunk of its pages were devoted to > things like sexy nightgowns, garter belts and stockings, and also shoes -- > mostly high heels and fancy mules in extra-large sizes. Apparently the > retailer did a lot of business with *men* quietly mail-ordering women's > things that would fit them. > > The amusing side effect of this was that over the next couple of years, my > address migrated to several other mailing lists, and I found myself > getting catalogs with elaborate fetishwear, vinyl catsuits, schoolgirl and > maid outfits, and so on, along with sex aids and toys. I think I still > have a few of these catalogs in a box somewhere. When I was doing sf > costuming, they were useful for ideas on support engineering with unusual > effects. > > --Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 13:03:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SH3dRM032215 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:03:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SH36YF021590 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:03:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SH34lk082931; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:03:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fed1rmmtao07.cox.net (fed1rmmtao07.cox.net [68.230.241.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SH2vlk082804 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:02:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mudsleidi@cox.net) Received: from smtp.west.cox.net ([172.18.180.53]) by fed1rmmtao07.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02.01 201-2131-111-104-103-20040709) with SMTP id <20040728170250.BJQA8002.fed1rmmtao07.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:02:50 -0400 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.15 (webedge20-101-1103-20040528) From: To: Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:02:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040728170250.BJQA8002.fed1rmmtao07.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] woops! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sorry for not snipping that last post of mine... Heidi _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 13:04:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SH4gRM032227 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:04:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SH1pYF021468 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:01:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SH1jlk081960; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:01:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from fed1rmmtao08.cox.net (fed1rmmtao08.cox.net [68.230.241.31]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SH1Wlk081721 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:01:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mudsleidi@cox.net) Received: from smtp.west.cox.net ([172.18.180.53]) by fed1rmmtao08.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02.01 201-2131-111-104-103-20040709) with SMTP id <20040728170124.BISW13717.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:01:24 -0400 X-Mailer: Openwave WebEngine, version 2.8.15 (webedge20-101-1103-20040528) From: To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:01:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20040728170124.BISW13717.fed1rmmtao08.cox.net@smtp.west.cox.net> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This was a VERY popular look at this year's Comic-Con for young women of all pursuasions. I saw enough of these little dresses (at least 50 a day) that I actually started to like them. Though you really have to be petite and perky (you know, like a little girl) to pull it off for everyday and not look costumey or fetishy. I personally could never pull it off, but I can't wait to see pictures of your finished costume, Deredere! Cheers, Heidi >>>Because they are more intended to make the "person" look young, cute and innocent than to make them look sexy. At least in the series I like. ;-) But on the other hand most girls that recreate such dresses from japanese anime don't look innocent at all...... And maby want to look sexy in them... Wich makes me wonder what would happen if I make the dress I like... http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Chii/Chii.html I am wondering how much anime has an influense on japanese people, and on the clothing they wear. Hopefully I will go to Japan in 2006 so maby I will be able to get an idea, and of course see the kyoto museum :-) :-) Greetings, Deredere Robin Netherton wrote: >On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > > > >>I would assume from Nabakov's book? "Lolita" tells the story of an >>older man's affair with a sexually premature teenaged girl. If I >>heard the term applied to a dress, I would immediately think of >>something that looks like a schoolgirl might wear it, but with the >>specific intent to be sexy or provocative. >> >> > >Susan is correct. Further elaboration: "Lolita" has been a code word for >many years (as in, pre-Internet) for po.rn (I'm trying to avoid spam >filters here) involving young girls, e.g. "Lolita videos." I assume that >the term has migrated into costuming from the fetish community. There's >quite a brisk business in costumes for sex purposes -- including sexy >maids, nurses, schoolteachers, and schoolgirls. Many businesses that >provide costumes for Halloween, role-playing games, and so forth find that >there's plenty of money to be had in catering as well to fetishwear, so >the advertising descriptions will include search terms that are common in >those communities. > >I first became aware of this overlap in the 1980s, when I sent off for a >lingerie catalog that advertised that it fit large sizes. (I need bras in >sizes that aren't usually in stores.) The catalog had plenty of perfectly >ordinary-looking lingerie, but a large chunk of its pages were devoted to >things like sexy nightgowns, garter belts and stockings, and also shoes -- >mostly high heels and fancy mules in extra-large sizes. Apparently the >retailer did a lot of business with *men* quietly mail-ordering women's >things that would fit them. > >The amusing side effect of this was that over the next couple of years, my >address migrated to several other mailing lists, and I found myself >getting catalogs with elaborate fetishwear, vinyl catsuits, schoolgirl and >maid outfits, and so on, along with sex aids and toys. I think I still >have a few of these catalogs in a box somewhere. When I was doing sf >costuming, they were useful for ideas on support engineering with unusual >effects. > >--Robin > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ============================================================ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 13:07:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SH7WRM032277 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:07:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SH5aYF021942 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:05:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SH5Wlk085193; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:05:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SH5Tll085156 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:05:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6SHDZ4I011514 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:13:40 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040728100153.025c2328@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:05:19 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? In-Reply-To: <4107D4AB.7050303@kabelfoon.nl> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hmmm ... Dangerous Beauty meets Dangerous Liaisons ? Katie >http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Chii/Chii.html _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 13:17:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SHHrRM032399 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:17:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHHOYF023119 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:17:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHHKlk095122; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:17:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.pacifier.net (smtp1.pacifier.net [64.255.237.171]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHH8lk094978 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:17:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kat@grendal.rain.com) Received: from KATHOUSE (ip39.130.du.eli.iinet.com [67.136.130.39]) by smtp1.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3162704E4 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:17:05 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:17:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Message-ID: <41077D24.13694.A792114@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <4107D4AB.7050303@kabelfoon.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > But I don't think it would be the right term for japanese anime > dresses. Because they are more intended to make the "person" look > young, cute and innocent than to make them look sexy. At least in the > series I like. ;-) But on the other hand most girls that recreate such > dresses from japanese anime don't look innocent at all...... And maby > want to look sexy in them... >From what I've seen of Anime costumes, Lolita is *just* the right term. Highly sexual outfits put on ultra young girls. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 13:20:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SHK7RM032434 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:20:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHJRYF023309 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:19:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHJOlk096768; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:19:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHJFlk096655 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:19:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from purplkat@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.15]) by mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I1K00KD7O41IQ@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [167.206.5.45] (Forwarded-For: [167.206.224.2]) by mstr4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mshttpd); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:19:09 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:19:09 -0400 From: purplkat@optonline.net Subject: Re: RE: [h-cost] Silk Denim To: Historical Costume Message-id: <16c7ad168cb3.168cb316c7ad@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO cotton is period the weave is period Indigo dye is period putting all together in denim -> not period Katheryne who has heard this particular mantra meny times before ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" > I dismissed it right away because it was my understanding that > this weave is not period (Just something I was told many moons ago...not > something I have researched) and I didn't care for the look or the hand. > Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 13:29:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SHTVRM032525 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:29:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHSmYF024280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:28:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHSllk004983; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:28:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts7.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.165]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHSelk004815 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:28:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.68.136.56]) by simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040728172716.WPKD18206.simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:27:16 -0400 Message-ID: <00c401c474c8$0bb04880$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:26:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I know something similar to this was on the list a while ago, but of course all of the related posts have long since been deleted off of my computer. :-) I am looking for paintings and illuminations depicting pregnant women for a friend of mine who will be doing a discussion of pregnancy and child-rearing and how to garb appropriately for such things. :-) Her paper/class notes are already written, she just wanted some appropriate pictures to add to her discussion. I think what she is looking for is a range of periods, just to show how women adapted their fashion to their needs. I already have one or two, just wanting to know if anyone else has anything handy. Thanks all! Sheridan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 13:35:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SHZCRM032585 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:35:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHYRYF024802 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:34:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHYOlk009738; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:34:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.cyberonic.com [4.17.179.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SHYJll009606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 11:34:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Katie@katiesorchids.com) Received: from KATIE.katiesorchids.com (node-40240b01.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net [64.36.11.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6SHgP4I019572 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:42:27 -0400 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20040728102807.025cc5e0@mail.katiesorchids.com> X-Sender: katie@katiesorchids.com@mail.katiesorchids.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:34:11 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Katie Pleasance Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? In-Reply-To: <41077D24.13694.A792114@localhost> References: <4107D4AB.7050303@kabelfoon.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A bit of a disclaimer here. Japan has a *much* more liberal view of sexuality than the USA. I believe the age of consent is 13! Much of what we consider porn is available in run-of-the-mill-nothing-special magazines available anywhere. Much of this lolita clothing would have served as a defense to rape -- the old "she shouldn't have worn that kind of clothes if she didn't want the 'attention' defense"-- just a few years ago in the US. As always, My Opinion Katie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 14:29:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SITERM000734 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:29:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIRCYF000760 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:27:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIR8lk053387; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:27:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIR4lk053316 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:27:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11531 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:32:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:32:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? In-Reply-To: <41077D24.13694.A792114@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 kat@grendal.rain.com wrote: > > But I don't think it would be the right term for japanese anime > > dresses. Because they are more intended to make the "person" look > > young, cute and innocent than to make them look sexy. At least in the > > series I like. ;-) But on the other hand most girls that recreate such > > dresses from japanese anime don't look innocent at all...... And maby > > want to look sexy in them... > > From what I've seen of Anime costumes, Lolita is *just* the right > term. Highly sexual outfits put on ultra young girls. Hmm, that strikes me as an alternate reading for "lolita." I think the image Nicole is describing above is exactly the reverse: childlike clothing on a sexual (postadolescent) female. For fetish/po.rn, that hits the triggers for people who find a turn-on in the abstract idea of sex with children, but the "child" they desire actually has all the abilities and equipment of the adult. (Of course, a lot of normal sexual turn-ons involve some visual or psychological implication of "forbidden territory" even if the actual object isn't forbidden. People who are turned on by women in "lolita" outfits wouldn't necessarily want to actually *have* sex with real children.) I think this is probably the original/older meaning, too, in terms of fetishwear, which generally is worn by postadolescent women, not children. The outfits associated with "Lolita" tend to be frilly and school-girlish, though with very short skirts. The outfits aren't "highly sexual"; the turn-on comes from the fact that the body underneath the little-girl clothing is in fact a fully sexual woman. (You see this as a frequent theme in Victorian porn as well, which certainly predates Nabokov.) However, Nabokov's heroine was more what Kat describes above. IIRC, although Lolita herself was underage, she behaved in an adult manner, and Humbert Humbert used that to justify his actions to himself (and the reader). And of course today's clothing trends for girls are on the line of "sexy adult clothes on young girls" -- yuck. I have boys, but my friends with preteen girls complain about how hard it is to even find non-sexualized clothing in the stores. Wonder how many spam filters are going to bounce *this* post. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 14:39:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SIdCRM000818 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:39:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIbHYF001727 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:37:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIbFlk061524; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:37:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.mdx.safepages.com (mail1.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.16]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIbBlk061492 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:37:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail1.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 3F4B413D7AC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:37:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust202.tnt1.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.148.202]) by mail1.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2EDC613D6A1 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:37:00 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <00f601c474d2$20a1df10$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:38:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Netherton" > Since it's almost impossible to find a reeled silk of reasonable weight < Speaking of which, what is everyone's one (or two or three or twelve) dream fabric, the one they'd give half their hoard to find? For me, it's a reasonably priced (hah!) 100% silk samite, a 100% silk taffeta moire, and to a lesser degree, heavy reeled silks in general and SLUB FREE linens. Oh, and superfine _white_ (or even ivory) worsted! I've seen most of these for sale at one time or another, but oy--the price is just plain depressing. Hey--I was finally able to find an affordable 100% silk velvet, backing and pile, through someone else's shared discovery. So why not get everyone's wish list out there? -E _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 14:46:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SIkvRM000880 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:46:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIinYF002595 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:44:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIiklk067685; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:44:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIiZlk067499 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:44:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11638 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:49:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:49:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? In-Reply-To: <4107D4AB.7050303@kabelfoon.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Deredere Galbraith wrote: > But on the other hand most girls that recreate such dresses from > japanese anime don't look innocent at all...... > And maby want to look sexy in them... > Wich makes me wonder what would happen if I make the dress I like... > http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Chii/Chii.html Here's someone who did that same character for cosplay. Her site has a lot of anime females (and a handful of lolitas, gothic and otherwise): http://www.firefly-path.com/cosplay.php?page=2 Chii is at the bottom of this page, and the black version is on the next page. I don't think either of these is as good an interpretation as most of the other costumes on her page, though. I'd love to see what you could do with it! Historical reference, sort of: The person who did this site mentions that she wore one of the fairy costumes to a Renfaire. (I know there are many people who work with/for Faires that try to bring a more historical look to staff costumes, but given that the visitors can wear whatever they like, I think anyone who expects Renfaires to present anything close to an image of the actual historical Renaissance will be much disappointed. They are the today's version of the carnival, with all our medieval/fairytale/fantasy images wrapped up in one pretty package, and enjoyable as such. I sometimes hear people complain about eBay listings and the like advertising "Faire" clothes that are generally wench dresses, vampires, or fairy outfits, but those sellers aren't presenting their work as historical -- they're presenting fairytale fantasy of the 21st century. Doesn't bother me till I hear people saying their Tinkerbell wings or PVC corsets are authentic...) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 14:48:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SIm1RM000890 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:48:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIlDYF002883 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:47:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIlAlk069644; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:47:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIl7lk069575 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:47:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f20.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.32]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DE96F262842 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:47:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <007e01c474d3$47609550$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:47:05 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Denim X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Denim originally comes from France. A city called Nimes. Hence the word (from Nimes) Denim. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 14:49:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SIndRM000903 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:49:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SImqYF003084 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:48:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SImplk071038; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:48:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SImklk070974 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:48:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f20.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.32]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B4015EE080 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:48:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <008401c474d3$83832cf0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:48:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] beadwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Your bead bags are gorgeous, and your website is very nice. Some of the bags nearly got me think it was period ones. Wonderfull colours and wonderfull work. Congratulations Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 14:53:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SIrjRM000947 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:53:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIr5YF003570 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:53:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIr2lk074503; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:53:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SIqwlk074473 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:52:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f20.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.32]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CA07262846 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:52:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <008a01c474d4$1b40d920$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <00c401c474c8$0bb04880$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:53:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I think she will have difficulties in finding any pictures of 18th century pregnant women, in my search i have never found one. But i remember a maternity dress from 18th century from the english magazine Costume. In Kyoto costume book there is an example of a pair of stays wich could be used for pregnancy. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 7:26 PM Subject: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy > I know something similar to this was on the list a while ago, but of course > all of the related posts have long since been deleted off of my computer. > :-) > > I am looking for paintings and illuminations depicting pregnant women for a > friend of mine who will be doing a discussion of pregnancy and child-rearing > and how to garb appropriately for such things. :-) Her paper/class notes are > already written, she just wanted some appropriate pictures to add to her > discussion. I think what she is looking for is a range of periods, just to > show how women adapted their fashion to their needs. > > I already have one or two, just wanting to know if anyone else has anything > handy. > > Thanks all! > > Sheridan > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side > and a dark side, and it holds the universe together. > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:03:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SJ39RM001030 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:03:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJ1wYF004565 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:01:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJ1ulk081813; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:01:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m20.mx.aol.com (imo-m20.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJ1plk081674 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:01:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.46.5455b40a (17079) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:01:37 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <46.5455b40a.2e395211@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:01:37 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/28/2004 2:53:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: But i remember a maternity dress from 18th century from the english magazine Costume. And for early 19th c., one of Ingres's drawings of his wife certainly makes her look pregnant, although it is hard to tell with styles of that period. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:08:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SJ85RM005391 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:08:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJ17YF004448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:01:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJ15lk081074; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:01:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJ0wlk080929 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:00:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1d2.2718ad16 (17079) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:00:45 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: <1d2.2718ad16.2e3951dd@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:00:45 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5031 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/28/2004 2:53:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, drewscph@post12.tele.dk writes: But i remember a maternity dress from 18th century from the english magazine Costume. There is also an outfit in the recently-closed Williamsburg exhibition, also pictured in the catalogue, of a 3-piece outfit thought to be maternity wear. Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:23:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SJN2RM005546 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:23:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJMMYF006745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:22:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJMJlk097850; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:22:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mxsf25.cluster1.charter.net (mxsf25.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.225]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJMHlk097762 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:22:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from CatDevereaux@alleycatscratch.com) Received: from mxip15.cluster1.charter.net (mxip15a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.145]) by mxsf25.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6SJM3Ys012833 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:22:07 -0400 Received: from 66-214-162-184.riv-eres.charterpipeline.net (HELO Maxwell) (66.214.162.184) by mxip15.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 28 Jul 2004 15:21:39 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,94,1089000000"; d="scan'208"; a="146846826:sNHT6700658552" From: "Cat Devereaux" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:21:35 -0700 Message-ID: <005a01c474d8$19f2b170$b8a2d642@Maxwell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <200407281506.i6SF6clm078305@net.indra.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: What means the word lolita?? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here's the fullllllllllllllll answer: http://www.magnet-holic.net/crosses/ . Definitions of both gothic and Lolita dress. Enjoy, -Cat- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:24:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SJOYRM005560 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:24:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJNmYF006875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:23:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJNjlk098958; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:23:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SJNhlk098816 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:23:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp03.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.123]) by smtpout05.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABASR9J6AMPJPKS for (sender ); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24540 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2004 19:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.1.76) by smtp03.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 28 Jul 2004 19:22:54 -0000 Message-ID: <006301c474d8$370d8f50$4c01bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <007e01c474d3$47609550$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Denim Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:22:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ContentStamp: 10:5:2418517697 X-MAIL-INFO: 1b74c1b5bd00f5798071f09d60906009b91050cd05440dd0d5296581e5a5590084e4e9d4c92059c02089ddc08d005141d070a9b019f17511f999506d1dc935249d30a46dd4a4a1b9d4dd1d5df519f4454081ed7d147d39452521647d79250d349d11b9390034a1b9f06079b9050dc14d504dd5cd9081104d6470640995e9b490e09559106d907059ddf0ad59f149e1a95da9f92431502da965ed6561fda404311dfd402d0131ed40110d29440da53d4d9510441020209541795d01c1559db5e04da0f9f1a08db070a961f1612d2dad5175fd752d31a42d3194b43194b4ad44e9e5e110a0d1a0e4f9a9c08da06199195511553934743934047934 04 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55ofvTOEywMMolIR0tPQjaX1KxwHEINiKQDu X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO How interesting, thanks Bjarne. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 2:47 PM Subject: [h-cost] Denim > Denim originally comes from France. A city called Nimes. > Hence the word (from Nimes) Denim. > > Bjarne > > > > > > Leif og Bjarne Drews > www.my-drewscostumes.dk > > http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:33:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SJXsRM005638 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:33:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJXCYF008042 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:33:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJX7lk006433; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:33:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJX4lk006387 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:33:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6SK695c045239 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:06:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6SK69uh045238 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:06:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407282006.i6SK69uh045238@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <008a01c474d4$1b40d920$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I think she will have difficulties in finding any pictures of 18th century > pregnant women, in my search i have never found one. > But i remember a maternity dress from 18th century from the english magazine > Costume. > In Kyoto costume book there is an example of a pair of stays wich could be > used for pregnancy. > I think I can come up with a couple of Elizabethan pregnant women if that will suit her needs. Susan/ Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:47:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SJlLRM016316 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:47:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJkUYF009559 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:46:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJkSlk016657; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:46:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts6.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.164]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJk9lk016249 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:46:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.68.136.56]) by simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040728194552.DHQA10364.simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:45:52 -0400 Message-ID: <00ee01c474db$3e9aaac0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407282006.i6SK69uh045238@sabre.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:44:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ooops, thanks! Forgot for a moment the full range of time periods done on this list. :-) Definitley anything pre-1600 would be fantastic. Thanks again. Sheridan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Farmer" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy > > I think she will have difficulties in finding any pictures of 18th century > > pregnant women, in my search i have never found one. > > But i remember a maternity dress from 18th century from the english magazine > > Costume. > > In Kyoto costume book there is an example of a pair of stays wich could be > > used for pregnancy. > > > > I think I can come up with a couple of Elizabethan pregnant women if > that will suit her needs. > > Susan/ Jerusha > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 15:59:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SJx9RM016623 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:59:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJv9YF010669 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:57:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJv3lk024800; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:57:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SJuvlk024737 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:56:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema (adsl-69-107-82-82.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.82.82]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SJuwBs028030 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:57:00 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20040728122558.018f28e0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:32:22 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20040728031632.01903240@mail.frys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO No real problem, as there are glove-making books and websites. And I have a stretch-fabric glove pattern from one of the last times one of the big companies had one. But every pattern fits differently, and none fit my wide short-fingered hand exactly right. So I'm still modifying the patterns I have in the direction of optimum fit. >Is it a problem getting patterns for leather gloves? >> >> Only for stretch fabrics, not for leather, sigh. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 16:16:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SKGKRM031374 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:16:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SKDwYF012313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:13:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SKDllk038398; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:13:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from draco.its.csufresno.edu (draco.its.csufresno.edu [129.8.52.69]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SKDdlk038235 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:13:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kimiko@kimiko1.com) Received: from earthlink.kimiko1.com (cvip-dsl-205-214.cvip.net [129.8.205.214]) by draco.its.csufresno.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94B115CFED for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.0.20040728131205.024b3bd8@64.87.54.245> X-Sender: kimiko@64.87.54.245 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:13:22 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Kimiko Small Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves In-Reply-To: <30239.63.119.218.166.1091030409.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <4.1.20040728031632.01903240@mail.frys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO And Chiara is a great teacher, too. I finally have a leather glove that fits my fingers, pudgy and long and all! Now to work on getting the gauntlets done. I am still stumped for an embroidery style I want. Kimiko At 11:00 AM 7/28/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Actually, Vogue pattern 7949: F ,G, and >I;(http://store.sewingtoday.com/cat/add_img/7949.gif), work for Leather or >any non-stretch material you want to use. :) > >I will be teaching a class on how to use this specific pattern and alter >it to be suitable for a specific time period. But the students will need >to go and get the pattern themselves for the class. > >Given enough notice I am willing to teach this anywhere I can travel to >reasonably. > >Chiara >www.glove.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 16:18:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SKIuRM031428 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:18:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SKH4YF012652 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:17:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SKH0lk040958; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:17:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SKGulk040773 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:16:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1Bpuqz-00073E-0W for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:16:45 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:15:26 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFD3@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFD3@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-U (<$wEBjsSJlUex9q9c790bp3afMD>) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Teddy wrote >Hello Jean, > >> Apologies if I've missed a previous post. Do you mean you >> are holding up separate leg hose with a pourpoint (-ish thing)? > >Yes > >> For what period, > >15th century > >> and can you point me at some sources? (this may be really well known, >> it's just between the periods I've done). > >Not off the top of my head, though someone else here may be able to >help. I know there are a couple of 15th century examples in Italian >paintings ( I know, not necessarily translatable to English useage) >shown in the Dress in Italian Painting 1460 -1500 - but it's a t home >and I'm at work. They are usually shown in physical/fight settings >(well dressed archers and people in battle). > >If I remember tongiht, I can look it up (that's a big "if", I'm likely >to forget about it entirely until the next time I look at >h-costume-digest) > >> Are the hose just thigh-length and suspended from a point at the >front, or are they >> growing towards joining up? > >Growing towards joining up. In fact they are cut exactly the same way >as my joined hose but aren't joined. > >My current pair were completely seperate for a couple of seasons, then I >experimented with joining them at the back for a couple of inches down >from the waist edge, which seems to have been a mistake as they tend to >either pop-stitches or tear the fabric at the point where the stitching >finishes and the gap starts. > >Teddy Thanks for the clarification. I think this is the issue. It's OK if the join between upper garment and hose is at the waist, but if the hose only come up to the thigh, you get that strange shoulder-connected-to-thigh effect which creates the puppet-strings feeling. Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 17:04:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SL48RM031643 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:04:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SKtNYF016988 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:55:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SKtAlk072364; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:55:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out009.verizon.net (out009pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SKt4lk072292 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:55:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out009.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040728205459.MBQA23440.out009.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:54:59 -0500 Message-ID: <003601c474e5$25c24d00$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:54:59 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out009.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:54:59 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Just leaves me with one question.... Where have all the plump faie gone? B :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Netherton" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Deredere Galbraith wrote: > > > But on the other hand most girls that recreate such dresses from > > japanese anime don't look innocent at all...... > > And maby want to look sexy in them... > > Wich makes me wonder what would happen if I make the dress I like... > > http://www.deredere.dds.nl/Chii/Chii.html > > Here's someone who did that same character for cosplay. Her site has a lot > of anime females (and a handful of lolitas, gothic and otherwise): > > http://www.firefly-path.com/cosplay.php?page=2 > > Chii is at the bottom of this page, and the black version is on the next > page. I don't think either of these is as good an interpretation as most > of the other costumes on her page, though. I'd love to see what you could > do with it! > > Historical reference, sort of: The person who did this site mentions that > she wore one of the fairy costumes to a Renfaire. > > (I know there are many people who work with/for Faires that try to bring a > more historical look to staff costumes, but given that the visitors can > wear whatever they like, I think anyone who expects Renfaires to present > anything close to an image of the actual historical Renaissance will be > much disappointed. They are the today's version of the carnival, with all > our medieval/fairytale/fantasy images wrapped up in one pretty package, > and enjoyable as such. I sometimes hear people complain about eBay > listings and the like advertising "Faire" clothes that are generally wench > dresses, vampires, or fairy outfits, but those sellers aren't presenting > their work as historical -- they're presenting fairytale fantasy of the > 21st century. Doesn't bother me till I hear people saying their Tinkerbell > wings or PVC corsets are authentic...) > > --Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 17:36:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SLaDRM031891 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:36:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLT5YF020175 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:29:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLSolk099391; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:28:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav7.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLShlk099240 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:28:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:20:47 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.57 by bay1-dav7.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:20:47 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.57] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003601c474e5$25c24d00$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:14:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 21:20:47.0593 (UTC) FILETIME=[C003DD90:01C474E8] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well if it says anything I wear Lolita and I'm not young skinny or underage. I'm chunky (working out at Curves however) over 30 (but under 40) eBay V.C. Andrews Books!! Glove Making Book http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- > Just leaves me with one question.... > > Where have all the plump faie gone? > > B :) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 17:38:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SLc7RM031899 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:38:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLZ4YF020814 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:35:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLZ0lk004485; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:35:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLYslk004359 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:34:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040728213453.JUEZ28868.out004.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:34:53 -0500 Message-ID: <00bc01c474ea$b8b0a490$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] beadwork Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:34:53 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:34:52 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Your work is wonderful, my mother and I got a wonderful laugh out of the STOP garter. You should really think about giving classes and posting tips on your site for casual beaders(that just doesn't sound right) like myself . B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Dorman" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: [h-cost] beadwork Hello all, I seldom post (mostly lurk), but I have finally managed (with much help) to launch a website showing my beadwork. Constructive criticism from knowledgeable people such as yourselves would be gratefully appreciated. Thank you, Kelly Dorman Backward Glances www.backwardglances.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 17:45:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SLixRM031936 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:44:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLfeYF021467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:41:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLfalk009873; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:41:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLfWlk009614 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:41:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f3a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.58]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C4F347FE4F for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:41:16 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001b01c474eb$9cd38160$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4.1.20040728031632.01903240@mail.frys.com> <4.1.20040728122558.018f28e0@mail.frys.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:41:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Speaking of gloves In that book about old embroidery pattern books made by Charlotte Paludan there is a pattern of a regency embroidered glove. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves > No real problem, as there are glove-making books and websites. And I have > a stretch-fabric glove pattern from one of the last times one of the big > companies had one. But every pattern fits differently, and none fit my > wide short-fingered hand exactly right. So I'm still modifying the > patterns I have in the direction of optimum fit. > > >Is it a problem getting patterns for leather gloves? > >> > >> Only for stretch fabrics, not for leather, sigh. > > > CarolynKayta Barrows > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > www.FunStuft.com > > //// \\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ))) > ((( <> )))) > ) (((((( > /----\ /---\)) > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 17:59:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SLxqRM031985 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:59:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLstYF022849 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:54:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLsp7E020380; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:54:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out007.verizon.net (out007pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.107]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLsH7E019978 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:54:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out007.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040728215417.RDCN1210.out007.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:54:17 -0500 Message-ID: <018301c474ed$6e6e2580$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003601c474e5$25c24d00$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:54:17 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out007.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:54:16 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Personally, I get sick of hearing that certain clothes should only be worn by certain figures. With a few adjustments, any clothing should be acceptable at any size. I am not saying that I like to see Rubenisk (sp?) women, like myself, in halter and daisy dukes, but I don't have a problem wearing cute dresses myself and neither should anyone else. If someone does have a problem with it, I see it as a personal issue that they should deal with. Not everyone should have to starve to think they are pretty. B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? > Well if it says anything I wear Lolita and I'm not young skinny or underage. > I'm chunky (working out at Curves however) over 30 (but under 40) > > > eBay > V.C. Andrews Books!! Glove Making Book > http://snipurl.com/74k1 > ----- Original Message ----- > > Just leaves me with one question.... > > > > Where have all the plump faie gone? > > > > B :) > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 18:00:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SM0aRM031991 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:00:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLscYF022784 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:54:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLro7E019678; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:53:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SLrl7E019593 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:53:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from katie_lewis@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 6BC3C1800344 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:53:41 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.34) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 28 Jul 2004 21:51:26 -0000 Received: by ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id B49A4C610C; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:53:39 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [129.219.100.249] by ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com with http for katie_lewis@lycos.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:53:39 -0500 From: "kathleen lewis" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:53:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy X-Originating-Ip: 129.219.100.249 X-Originating-Server: ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040728215339.B49A4C610C@ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane & Sheridan" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:26:24 -0400 To: "Historical Costume" Subject: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy > > I am looking for paintings and illuminations depicting pregnant women for a > friend of mine who will be doing a discussion of pregnancy and child-rearing > and how to garb appropriately for such things. :-) Her paper/class notes are > already written, she just wanted some appropriate pictures to add to her > discussion. I think what she is looking for is a range of periods, just to > show how women adapted their fashion to their needs. > Check out "The Meal Scene" by Joachim Beukelear. The image of it that I have is in "The Well dressed Peasant" Both the woman holding the glass and flagon and the woman holding the spit look pregnant to me. Recently I ran across a picture of Anne of Austria in which she looked pretty darn pregnant. I can't find it now, but it was in one of the collections of portriats linked to off of www.costume.dm.net -Katie Anya: Fine. Look, I know you find me attractive. I've seen you looking at my breasts. Xander: Nothing personal, but when a guy does that, it just means his eyes are open. -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 18:17:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SMHCRM032202 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:17:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMCnYF024810 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:12:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMCW7E033894; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:12:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMCR7E033852 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:12:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hbgd103@soton.ac.uk) Received: from modem-3224.aardvark.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.12.152] helo=soton.ac.uk) by cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Bpwep-00011Z-4G for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:12:19 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:17:18 +0100 Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Content-Type: text/plain; delsp=yes; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Hilary Davidson To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <20040728215339.B49A4C610C@ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Margaret of Austria, 1598 portrait by Bartolome Gonzalez. She's down the bottom right at http://www.el-nuevodia.com/Revista_Escape/Agosto/esc030817d.html. Bad picture but a start. >> >> I am looking for paintings and illuminations depicting pregnant women >> for a >> friend of mine who will be doing a discussion of pregnancy and >> child-rearing >> and how to garb appropriately for such things. :-) Her paper/class >> notes are >> already written, she just wanted some appropriate pictures to add to >> her >> discussion. I think what she is looking for is a range of periods, >> just to >> show how women adapted their fashion to their needs. >> > > > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages > http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/ > default.asp?SRC=lycos10 > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 18:17:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SMHcRM032208 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:17:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMGtYF025267 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:16:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMGp7E037402; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:16:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41501.mail.yahoo.com (web41501.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SMGj7E037261 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:16:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celtic_dragonrider@yahoo.ca) Message-ID: <20040728221637.87816.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.82.52.78] by web41501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:16:37 EDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:16:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Janet Renzetti To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT-Cute site for Tolkien fans X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey everyone why not find you HObbit or Elf name...here is the site http://www.chriswetherell.com/hobbit/default.asp Janet --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 18:42:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SMg9RM032353 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:42:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMfIYF027755 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:41:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMfD7E055146; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:41:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMfB7E055065 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:41:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15160 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:41:04 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:41:04 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I believe Colonial Williamsburg costume collection has a yellow three-piece ensemble that was only fairly recently discovered to be for a pregnant/nursing mother. There is also a portrait of the wife of Sir William Cecil (circa 1560)where she is probably pregnant. Pregnancy was such a common condition for child-bearing women that there was probably no special clothing except for the higher socio-economic classes until comparatively recent times in the West. Charles Frederick Worth did design maternity costume for private clients and a lot of medieval fashions could certainly be called pregnancy-friendly. The "Empire vogue" of c1790-1810 was a boon for nursing mothers as well. There is a book on www.longago.com that covers the history of maternity fashion and may be obtainable via interlibrary loan, if buying it would take too long for your friend's paper. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 19:00:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SN0ARM032430 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:00:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMw5YF029241 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:58:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMvv7E067431; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:57:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav7.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SMvt7E067339 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:57:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:32:28 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.72 by bay1-dav7.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:32:28 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.72] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <003601c474e5$25c24d00$547c0f04@brandyscomp> <018301c474ed$6e6e2580$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:32:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jul 2004 22:32:28.0671 (UTC) FILETIME=[C3A848F0:01C474F2] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually a lot of Lolita and Kindergoth Kinderwhore garb is being made with the plus sizes in mind now a days. It used to be that the tiny twiggy got all the press but now the plus sizes are getting all the attention now. Thanks to companies like Alloy (www.alloy.com) and others if you are over a size 14 it doesn't mean you are doomed to Lane Bryant clothes. B. eBay V.C. Andrews Books!! Glove Making Book http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- > Personally, I get sick of hearing that certain clothes should only be worn > by certain figures. With a few adjustments, any clothing should be > acceptable at any size. I am not saying that I like to see Rubenisk (sp?) > women, like myself, in halter and daisy dukes, but I don't have a problem > wearing cute dresses myself and neither should anyone else. If someone does > have a problem with it, I see it as a personal issue that they should deal > with. Not everyone should have to starve to think they are pretty. > > B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 19:04:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SN4IRM032443 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:04:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SN3WYF029708 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:03:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SN3U7E071401; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:03:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out010.verizon.net (out010pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.133]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SN3R7E071383 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:03:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out010.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040728230327.NKSN14383.out010.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:03:27 -0500 Message-ID: <01a901c474f7$187213d0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historic Costume List" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:03:28 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out010.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:03:27 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Help X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6SN4IRM032443 Status: RO I have been informed that my local guild is currently in a bit of chaos, so I do not have a local group to turn to help me with this, It would be so much easier if I did :) Here goes, trying to get a new dress put together. I posted the details on my semi-local list and hope that I can get help from you all as well. I REALLY hope someone has a pattern that will guide me through this. As per the costume. I am using a sateen for the underdress and bodice, Black lace for the sleeves and overskirt. Neither are close to being period fabric, but I am patheticly poor and have to use $2-3 clearance fabric.. ick, I know. I would like the costume to look similar to these: http://www.pendragoncostumes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=pendragon&Category_Code=velvet_viola http://www.costumes.org/history/greatwomen/10340_20.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/kideliz.jpg I also really like the bodice shown on pg. 103 of Janet Arnolds Patterns of Fasion 1560-1620. I would like the sleeves to be puffy, cuffed and split, so I can cook and funtion without them getting caught on things. Whew, that was a lot of typing :) I can try to elaborate, but please be kind, it is my first season :) B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 19:05:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SN5QRM032449 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:05:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SN4mYF029837 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:04:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SN4l7E072242; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:04:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SN4i7E072193 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:04:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040728230442.OFTA22385.out006.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:04:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01b901c474f7$454a7c30$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040728221637.87816.qmail@web41501.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Cute site for Tolkien fans Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:04:43 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:04:42 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Renzetti" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 3:16 PM Subject: [h-cost] OT-Cute site for Tolkien fans > Hey everyone why not find you HObbit or Elf name...here is the site > > http://www.chriswetherell.com/hobbit/default.asp > > Janet > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 19:14:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SNEYRM032514 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:14:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNDuYF000709 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:13:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNDs7E078274; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:13:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.67]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNDp7E078212 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:13:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@lycos.com) Received: from wfilter.us4.outblaze.com (wfilter.us4.outblaze.com [205.158.62.180]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 25BEA1800F40 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:13:46 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (208.36.123.32) by wfilter.us4.outblaze.com; 28 Jul 2004 23:11:33 -0000 Received: by ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0C3523384B; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:13:46 +0000 (GMT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [130.88.96.65] by ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com with http for dannw@lycos.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:13:46 +0000 From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:13:46 +0000 Subject: off-list Re: [h-cost] Gloves X-Originating-Ip: 130.88.96.65 X-Originating-Server: ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20040728231346.0C3523384B@ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO HI Bjarne, I was wondering if you could scan that and send it to me or photocopy it? I will pay for the photocopying and shipping. I've finally decided to try making my own gloves and bought the leather yesterday. So, it would be nice to have some instruction. Cheers, Danielle ----- Original Message ----- > Speaking of gloves > In that book about old embroidery pattern books made by Charlotte Paludan > there is a pattern of a regency embroidered glove. > > Bjarne -- _______________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 19:43:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SNhDRM032674 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:43:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNdXYF002703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:39:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNdU7E094775; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:39:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNdR7F094722 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:39:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6SNe1Kw018143 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:40:01 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:45:48 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <4107D4AB.7050303@kabelfoon.nl> In-Reply-To: <4107D4AB.7050303@kabelfoon.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407281945.48268.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 28 July 2004 12:30 pm, Deredere Galbraith wrote: > Thanks! > That makes it much clearer. > But I don't think it would be the right term for japanese anime dresses. > Because they are more intended to make the "person" look young, cute and > innocent than to make them look sexy. > At least in the series I like. ;-) Ah, but to some people, "young, cute and innocent" *is* sexy. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 19:48:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SNm4RM032701 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:48:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNlKYF003310 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:47:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNlJ7E099646; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:47:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNlG7E099613 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:47:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bpy8h-0001eb-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:47:15 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Help Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:47:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c474fd$35e9a8f0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <01a901c474f7$187213d0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6SNlG7E099613 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Margo Andersons are probably the best; http://www.margospatterns.com/elizlady.htm but for someone with your budget that may be a little tough. Even though they are classified as Elizabethan, you can modify them to make them more Tudor. This period pattern is probably closest to what you seem to be looking for, however if you haven't sewn much, the directions will be tough to follow. http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/pp51-53.htm All of the major pattern companies have some things which you could use as a basis, but most of them are 'really' bad. Simplicty has the best in my opinion. http://snipurl.com/83al You will need the underpinnings to make it look correct and I think Margo's and PP are the only ones that offer that kind of pattern. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 19:49:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SNntRM032718 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:49:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNnHYF003512 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:49:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNnG7E000964; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:49:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNnB7F000887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:49:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6SNnj5D018461 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:49:45 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:55:32 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <00f601c474d2$20a1df10$0400a8c0@compaqub> In-Reply-To: <00f601c474d2$20a1df10$0400a8c0@compaqub> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407281955.32448.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 28 July 2004 2:38 pm, E House wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robin Netherton" > > > Since it's almost impossible to find a reeled silk of reasonable weight < > > Speaking of which, what is everyone's one (or two or three or twelve) dream > fabric, the one they'd give half their hoard to find? For me, it's a > reasonably priced (hah!) 100% silk samite, a 100% silk taffeta moire, and > to a lesser degree, heavy reeled silks in general and SLUB FREE linens. Have you tried looking on fabrics-store.com? They sell almost nothing but linen, and they do free (and I mean free, no shipping charge if you're in the US or Canada) swatching. The linen I've bought there looks slub free to me, but perhaps I'm not a sufficiently rigorous judge. Prices average around $5 - $8 per yard, but you can sometimes find some linens for around $4. > and superfine _white_ (or even ivory) worsted! I've seen most of these for > sale at one time or another, but oy--the price is just plain depressing. Speaking of tough-to-find fabric, has anyone on this list *ever* seen diamond twill weave fabric for sale? I'm interested in wool, since that was an important fabric in the Viking period, but at this point I'd take an appropriate weave in almost *any* natural fiber. I have occasionally found hand-woven to order items (like scarves and baby blankets) in the right weave, but no fabric by the yard. For those who aren't familiar with it, the second sample on the following web page is the type of weave I mean: http://www.medievaltextiles.org/gallery/gallery2.html Any information anyone may have on this subject would be greatly appreciated. And I'll try to keep my eye peeled for reasonably (?) priced fine white wools and silk taffeta moires. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 19:57:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SNvCRM032755 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:57:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNtBYF003989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:55:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNt97E004675; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:55:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNt77F004654 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:55:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6SNtenn018651 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:55:41 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Arthur Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:01:28 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <87.1187d777.2e36aedc@aol.com> <200407262235.38389.cathy@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407282001.28176.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tuesday 27 July 2004 2:10 pm, Jean Waddie wrote: > Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote > > >> There were far too many homo-erotic shots of grown men looking > >> meaningfully at each-other in much the same way as soap opera actors > >> stare into the middle-distance while awaiting the commerical break. > > > >There were lots of meaningful looks that weren't homoerotic, too; I > > snarked to my husband that you can't complain about the script being bad, > > because they seemed not to have used one. :-) > > With the new "information" phrases accompanying films, I saw one a while > ago that claimed it contained "infrequent language". And by all > accounts that was entirely accurate! You can say that again. Most of the so-called plot could be easily discerned by someone who spoke no English. :-) (Though if you didn't understand English, you'd miss the annoying, historically-inaccurate characterizations of Pelagius's beliefs). -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 19:59:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6SNx3RM032762 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:59:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNvIYF004144 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:57:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6SNv07E005850; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:57:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51108.mail.yahoo.com (web51108.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.150]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6SNuw7E005768 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:56:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040728235652.84552.qmail@web51108.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.243.34] by web51108.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:56:52 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:56:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20040728215339.B49A4C610C@ws7-5.us4.outblaze.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I am looking for paintings and illuminations depicting pregnant women My lord has picked German as his persona so I have been recently looking at German paintings and have found that the look of the clothing for German women were to always look (and probably were) pregnant. Perpetual pregnancy *shutter* Cheri/Anne Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 20:08:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T088RM000335 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:08:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T07cYF004944 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:07:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T07a7E012303; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:07:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T07S7E012238 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:07:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6T0eZ5c047510 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:40:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6T0eZuP047509 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:40:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407290040.i6T0eZuP047509@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Margaret of Austria, 1598 portrait by Bartolome Gonzalez. She's down > the bottom right at > http://www.el-nuevodia.com/Revista_Escape/Agosto/esc030817d.html. Bad > picture but a start. This is one of the two that I know of. I have access to a better picture if she needs one. Jerusha/ susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 20:13:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T0DqRM000400 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:13:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T0BXYF005264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:11:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T0BW7E014774; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:11:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51109.mail.yahoo.com (web51109.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.130]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6T0BS7E014711 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:11:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040729001122.76966.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.243.34] by web51109.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:11:22 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:11:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Subject: RE: [h-cost] Help To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <000c01c474fd$35e9a8f0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.74, clamav-milter version 0.74a on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Simplicity has one #8881 Elizabethan costume collection that is a good place to start on a budget. You'll have to do some adjusting to get the Tudor look from it, but it has a pattern for the farthingale, bumroll, neck and wrist ruffs and a partlet. You'll need a good "straight up the front" corset to complete the look. I've made two dresses using this as a guide and they have turned out well. Of course, no snaps, no elastic...but that goes without saying. Cheri/Anne Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 20:33:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T0XLRM000518 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:33:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T0WXYF006726 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:32:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T0WT7E038013; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:32:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt3.ihug.co.nz (grunt3.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.43]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T0WP7E037830 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:32:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p8-max8.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.204.72] by grunt3.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BpyqA-0007RA-00; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:32:10 +1200 Message-ID: <00a901c47503$79425b00$48ccadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040728235652.84552.qmail@web51108.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:32:03 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO <> Which era? I've studied 16thC and the aim is not to look pregnant in the vast majority... especially when you compare the portraits to women who are pregnant. And when you look at painting of naturally plump women the roundness of the hips and bust is very similar. There's a certain roundness of the belly in the late Gothic style true, but if anything it's that "you look like you *could* bear children." Not that they were pregnant. michaela de bruce http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 20:47:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T0lnRM000565 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:47:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T0l8YF007837 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:47:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T0l77E046373; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:47:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51110.mail.yahoo.com (web51110.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.131]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6T0l57E046311 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:47:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040729004658.61386.qmail@web51110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.243.34] by web51110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:46:58 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:46:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <00a901c47503$79425b00$48ccadcb@michaela> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's a certain roundness of the belly in the late Gothic style true, but if anything it's that "you look like you *could* bear children." Not that they were pregnant. 1500's and they do look pregnat to me. Tight fitting tops ending below the breast, lots of room from there down. I'm not talking full tilt, nine months, ready to deliver. There are nine months of pregnancy to look at not just the end. Cheri/Anne Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 21:04:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T142RM000624 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:04:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T13QYF008781 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:03:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T13P7E055467; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:03:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51101.mail.yahoo.com (web51101.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6T13K7E055386 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:03:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040729010314.67249.qmail@web51101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.243.34] by web51101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:03:14 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:03:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20040729004658.61386.qmail@web51110.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's a certain roundness of the belly in the late Gothic style true, but if anything it's that "you look like you *could* bear children." Not that they were pregnant. And why would a married woman want to "look like she *could* bare children"? Seems to me that would be single young girls attracting a husband. A married woman would be pregnant most of her life. Cheri/Anne Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 21:04:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T14TRM000627 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:04:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T13mYF008840 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:03:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T13l7E055723; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:03:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6T13j7E055650 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:03:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OpURNpFh6onm0lGfKCpD9Us= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J3NVT4MM; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:03:32 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 17:53:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? Message-ID: <20040728.180322.1508.1.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,6-53 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hear hear!!! Clothes that fit well and flatter are suitable to all shapes and sizes! Arlys, tall and lanky type On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:54:17 -0700 "Brandy Deming" writes: > Personally, I get sick of hearing that certain clothes should only be > worn > by certain figures. With a few adjustments, any clothing should be > acceptable at any size. I am not saying that I like to see Rubenisk > (sp?) > women, like myself, in halter and daisy dukes, but I don't have a > problem > wearing cute dresses myself and neither should anyone else. If > someone does > have a problem with it, I see it as a personal issue that they > should deal > with. Not everyone should have to starve to think they are pretty. > > B > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bice" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 2:14 PM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] What means the word lolita?? > > > > Well if it says anything I wear Lolita and I'm not young skinny or > underage. > > I'm chunky (working out at Curves however) over 30 (but under 40) > > > > > > eBay > > V.C. Andrews Books!! Glove Making Book > > http://snipurl.com/74k1 > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > Just leaves me with one question.... > > > > > > Where have all the plump faie gone? > > > > > > B :) > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 21:19:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T1JeRM000735 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:19:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1J5YF009718 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:19:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1J17E064102; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:19:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1Ix7E064034 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:19:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from ches (c-24-1-84-130.client.comcast.net[24.1.84.130]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20040729011854013003qr1ce>; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:18:54 +0000 Message-ID: <00aa01c47509$fa0b5a60$6800a8c0@ches> From: "Chiara" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040728231346.0C3523384B@ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com> Subject: Re: off-list Re: [h-cost] Gloves Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:13:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I would like a copy as well Bjarne. :) Chiara www.glove.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 6:13 PM Subject: off-list Re: [h-cost] Gloves : HI Bjarne, : : I was wondering if you could scan that and send it to me or photocopy it? I will pay for the photocopying and shipping. I've finally decided to try making my own gloves and bought the leather yesterday. So, it would be nice to have some instruction. : : Cheers, : Danielle : ----- Original Message ----- : > Speaking of gloves : > In that book about old embroidery pattern books made by Charlotte Paludan : > there is a pattern of a regency embroidered glove. : > : > Bjarne : : -- : _______________________________________________ : Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages : http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 : : _______________________________________________ : h-costume mailing list : h-costume@mail.indra.com : http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 21:31:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T1VJRM000808 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:31:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1UkYF010457 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:30:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1Uj7E070794; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:30:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1Uf7F070774 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:30:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-253.sonic.net [209.148.112.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T1UdJn017460 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:30:40 -0700 Message-ID: <41085475.30600@lavoltapress.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:35:49 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: off-list Re: [h-cost] Gloves References: <20040728231346.0C3523384B@ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com> In-Reply-To: <20040728231346.0C3523384B@ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Is this book _ 98 Pattern Books for Eoknjmbroidery, Lace, and Knitting. (98 Moensterboeger Til Broderi, Knipling Og Strikning)_, or _ Alverdens Broderier (Embroideries From the Whole World) I Kunstindustrimuseet_ (in the Applied Arts Museum)? Both of these, and some of her other books on textiles, are currently listed on www.addall.com/used. Fran Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote: >HI Bjarne, > >I was wondering if you could scan that and send it to me or photocopy it? I will pay for the photocopying and shipping. I've finally decided to try making my own gloves and bought the leather yesterday. So, it would be nice to have some instruction. > >Cheers, >Danielle >----- Original Message ----- > > >>Speaking of gloves >>In that book about old embroidery pattern books made by Charlotte Paludan >>there is a pattern of a regency embroidered glove. >> >>Bjarne >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 21:48:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T1m4RM000865 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:48:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1jvYF011610 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:45:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1ju7E079206; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:45:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1jS7F078911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:45:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-253.sonic.net [209.148.112.253]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T1jPkJ028992 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:45:26 -0700 Message-ID: <410857EC.1040303@lavoltapress.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 18:50:36 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: off-list Re: [h-cost] Gloves References: <20040728231346.0C3523384B@ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com> <00aa01c47509$fa0b5a60$6800a8c0@ches> In-Reply-To: <00aa01c47509$fa0b5a60$6800a8c0@ches> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Charlotte Paludin is the proper person to ask if you want to copy material from her book. I don't read Danish, but as far as I can tell her contact information is: Charlotte Paludan Det Danske Kunstindustrimuseum Bredgade 68 1260 Křbenhavn K. Tlf. 33 18 56 64 This is the main page of the website where I got her contact info: http://www.dragt.dk/ Which also has an English version you can reach from the link above. The website of the Danske Kunstindustrimuseum itself is http://www.kunstindustrimuseet.dk. Fran >I would like a copy as well Bjarne. :) > >Chiara >www.glove.org > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" >To: "Historical Costume" >Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 6:13 PM >Subject: off-list Re: [h-cost] Gloves > > >: HI Bjarne, >: >: I was wondering if you could scan that and send it to me or photocopy it? >I will pay for the photocopying and shipping. I've finally decided to try >making my own gloves and bought the leather yesterday. So, it would be nice >to have some instruction. >: >: Cheers, >: Danielle >: ----- Original Message ----- >: > Speaking of gloves >: > In that book about old embroidery pattern books made by Charlotte >Paludan >: > there is a pattern of a regency embroidered glove. >: > >: > Bjarne >: >: -- >: _______________________________________________ >: Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages >: >http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 >: >: _______________________________________________ >: h-costume mailing list >: h-costume@mail.indra.com >: http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 21:58:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T1wBRM000900 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:58:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1uNYF012433 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:56:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1uL7E085028; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:56:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T1uI7E084949 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:56:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from ches (c-24-1-84-130.client.comcast.net[24.1.84.130]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20040729015612013003bt45e>; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:56:12 +0000 Message-ID: <00f901c4750f$24a467d0$6800a8c0@ches> From: "Chiara" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040728231346.0C3523384B@ws7-3.us4.outblaze.com><00aa01c47509$fa0b5a60$6800a8c0@ches> <410857EC.1040303@lavoltapress.com> Subject: Re: off-list Re: [h-cost] Gloves Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:55:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Too late, the book is mine!!! :) Do not worry about the "copying" request on me. I thought this was something old, not new as in this century published, that we would never see anywhere over here. Glad it was a book from this century that I could buy. :) Chiara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lavolta Press" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: Re: off-list Re: [h-cost] Gloves : Charlotte Paludin is the proper person to ask if you want to copy : material from her book. I don't read Danish, but as far as I can tell : her contact information is: : : Charlotte Paludan : Det Danske Kunstindustrimuseum : Bredgade 68 : 1260 Křbenhavn K. : Tlf. 33 18 56 64 : : This is the main page of the website where I got her contact info: : : http://www.dragt.dk/ : : Which also has an English version you can reach from the link above. : : The website of the Danske Kunstindustrimuseum itself is : http://www.kunstindustrimuseet.dk. : : Fran : : >I would like a copy as well Bjarne. :) : > : >Chiara : >www.glove.org : > : >----- Original Message ----- : >From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" : >To: "Historical Costume" : >Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 6:13 PM : >Subject: off-list Re: [h-cost] Gloves : > : > : >: HI Bjarne, : >: : >: I was wondering if you could scan that and send it to me or photocopy it? : >I will pay for the photocopying and shipping. I've finally decided to try : >making my own gloves and bought the leather yesterday. So, it would be nice : >to have some instruction. : >: : >: Cheers, : >: Danielle : >: ----- Original Message ----- : >: > Speaking of gloves : >: > In that book about old embroidery pattern books made by Charlotte : >Paludan : >: > there is a pattern of a regency embroidered glove. : >: > : >: > Bjarne : >: : >: -- : >: _______________________________________________ : >: Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages : >: : >http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.as p?SRC=lycos10 : >: : >: _______________________________________________ : >: h-costume mailing list : >: h-costume@mail.indra.com : >: http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume : > : >_______________________________________________ : >h-costume mailing list : >h-costume@mail.indra.com : >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume : > : > : > : > : _______________________________________________ : h-costume mailing list : h-costume@mail.indra.com : http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 22:10:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T2AXRM000983 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:10:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T29vYF013496 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:09:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T29m7E093006; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:09:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T29j7F092973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:09:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T2AJFH024252 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:10:20 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk Denim Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:16:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000e01c4744a$e55ebe50$6a01a8c0@SG01> <4107AF1E.9050500@in-tch.com> In-Reply-To: <4107AF1E.9050500@in-tch.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407282216.06325.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 28 July 2004 9:50 am, Sue Clemenger wrote: > No, I haven't handled it or used it at all. I'm on the store's email > list, and the link came across in one yesterday, as part of a special sale. > You say you've handled it--what do you mean when you say it "feels like > denim?" Stiff? Heavy? An obvious twill? I made myself a Kinsale cloak once out of a fabric with the same weave--an obvious twill of the "denim" variety. It was sold to me as a silk/wool blend. It wasn't stiff at all though--very supple, but not too light; dress weight I'd say. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 22:39:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T2dcRM001121 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:39:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2boYF015226 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:37:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2bm7E008812; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:37:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out002.verizon.net (out002pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.141]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2bi7E008769 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:37:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jauncourt@verizon.net) Received: from [4.12.168.105] by out002.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040729023743.MWOT24402.out002.verizon.net@[4.12.168.105]> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:37:43 -0500 Message-ID: <410862FA.50604@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:37:46 -0500 From: Maura Folsom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040616 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) References: <200407290156.i6T1uZ7F085161@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: <200407290156.i6T1uZ7F085161@net.indra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out002.verizon.net from [4.12.168.105] at Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:37:43 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: >Speaking of tough-to-find fabric, has anyone on this list *ever* seen diamond >twill weave fabric for sale? I'm interested in wool, since that was an >important fabric in the Viking period, but at this point I'd take an >appropriate weave in almost *any* natural fiber. > I actually have some that I found in a discount fabrics warehouse (in the Dallas fabric district). Small diamonds, even. The only thing wrong with it is that it's rayon. A very silky rayon, so it has a lovely hand and drape, though. That and it's ... black and white. OUCH to look at. I plan to overdye it, probably some will end up blue/black and some red/black. I haven't made myself a thing out if it yet, it's being hoarded. M. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 22:56:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T2uORM001265 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:56:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2sTYF016395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:54:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2sP7E017931; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:54:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.116]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2sM7E017899 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:54:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sherylnd@kc.rr.com) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115]) by ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id i6T2oX8b001570 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:50:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20040728220227.00a37890@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:03:49 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves In-Reply-To: <001b01c474eb$9cd38160$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> References: <4.1.20040728031632.01903240@mail.frys.com> <4.1.20040728122558.018f28e0@mail.frys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oooohh! Just what I needed! I'll see if I can interlibrary loan a copy. You're talking about "98 pattern books for embroidery, lace and knitting", right? Sheryl Nance-Durst At 11:41 PM 7/28/04 +0200, you wrote: >Speaking of gloves >In that book about old embroidery pattern books made by Charlotte Paludan >there is a pattern of a regency embroidered glove. > >Bjarne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 22:58:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T2wfRM001286 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:58:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2uWYF016522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:56:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2uV7E019067; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:56:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2uS7E019037 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:56:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sherylnd@kc.rr.com) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115]) by ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id i6T2uN8q017126 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:56:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20040728220458.00a14c40@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:05:55 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] beadwork In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Wonderful! I especially liked the "filet" bag using the right angle weave. Interesting technique! Sheryl Nance-Durst At 08:17 PM 7/27/04 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, > I seldom post (mostly lurk), but I have finally managed (with much help) > to launch a website showing my beadwork. Constructive criticism from > knowledgeable people such as yourselves would be gratefully appreciated. >Thank you, >Kelly Dorman >Backward Glances >www.backwardglances.net >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:00:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T30JRM001296 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:00:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2xhYF016725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:59:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2xg7E020795; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:59:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T2xc7E020768 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:59:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sherylnd@kc.rr.com) Received: from oemcomputer.kc.rr.com (CPE-65-30-107-115.kc.rr.com [65.30.107.115]) by ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id i6T2xY8q018629 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:59:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20040728220725.00a1a3e0@pop-server.kc.rr.com> X-Sender: sherylnd@pop-server.kc.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:09:06 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Sheryl Nance-Durst Subject: Re: [h-cost] Congratulations Fran! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh my! LOL! I just read that page last week and didn't even notice that one of the winners was Fran! I love it! Sheryl Nance-Durst At 01:54 PM 7/26/04 -0400, you wrote: > >Chilren's Literature Winner of the 2004 Bulwer-Lytton Contest >http://www.bulwer-lytton.com > > >On this gray and drizzly Monday in the hills of the extended Ohio >Valley, I noticed this MOST interesting addition to your sig, not that >the body of the message wasn't worth reading, ruminating on, and saving >as well, and just had to tell you that this this is a fabulous addition >to your already extensive list of accomplishments; it is so dissimilar >from the usual, routine list of awards we hear tell of and must >compliment the owners for-- it cannot help but raise the eyebrow of >whomever is reading your resume in the future! > >Kathy Hoover >Who has a bit of a way to go.... > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:15:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3FRRM001356 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:15:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3EoYF017764 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:14:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3En7E029043; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:14:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f13.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.63]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3Ej7E028969 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:14:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:14:40 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.95 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:14:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.95] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:14:39 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2004 03:14:40.0036 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F898E40:01C4751A] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Cheri >From: Cheri >>There's a certain roundness of the belly in the late Gothic style true, >>but >>if anything it's that "you look like you *could* bear children." Not that >>they were pregnant. >And why would a married woman want to "look like she *could* bare >children"? >Seems to me that would be single young girls attracting a husband. Because it's the style? How many modern married women can you think of today who like to dress attractively? >A married woman would be pregnant most of her life. Mmm, interesting supposition, is there evidence to support it as a universal? Marc _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:26:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3QaRM001437 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:26:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3Q1YF018667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:26:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3Pw7E035108; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:25:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts7.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.165]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3Ps7E035000 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:25:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.68.136.56]) by simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040729032436.GJAA18206.simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:24:36 -0400 Message-ID: <016001c4751b$70d39de0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:14:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Interesting finds X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO While perusing the galleries in a search for pregnant ladies, I found this painting: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/lorenzet/ambrogio/governme/2effect3.jpg What I find interesting is that the lady on the horse is not riding side saddle, like most medieval fiction writers would have you beleive. :-) The painting is dated 1338-40. I also found this painting; The birth of the Virgin Mary, dated 1365 http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/giovanni/milano/birth.jpg I really like the red and white gown on the young woman on the far left. Sheridan *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* You are only young once, but you can stay immature indefinitely. Ogden Nash _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:27:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3RQRM001447 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:27:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3QlYF018805 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:26:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3Ql7E035526; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:26:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3Qh7E035507 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:26:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bq1Z4-0004SN-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:26:43 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Subject: RE: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:26:42 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c4751b$deddc860$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6T3RQRM001447 Status: RO I have been ordering Linen from fabric-store.com for several years and it is slubby. It is also not very tightly woven. Their new ''less'' slubby even more so. They do have a swatch service, so I would recommend ordering those. I also paid 40$ a few years ago for the complete swatch set from Linen House. The difference is INCREDIBLE-but so are the PRICES! I just recently got back from the LA fabric district and you don't see much better there than online with fabric-store.com Whenever I can find it, I buy silk/linen blends for linings etc. It is much more tightly woven and very nice. Sometimes the linen woven silk is also affordable and very nice. But this doesn't solve the problem of finding a nicely woven white linen for chemises. I keep telling myself if I loose the 20 lbs I need to I will treat myself to some Linen Store stuff! Sg I _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:28:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3SsRM001457 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:28:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3SHYF018889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:28:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3SH7E036336; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:28:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3SD7E036306 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:28:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bq1aV-0004fW-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:28:11 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Silk Denim Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:28:11 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c4751c$135d6b40$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <200407282216.06325.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >I made myself a Kinsale cloak once out of a fabric with the same weave--an >obvious twill of the "denim" variety. It was sold to me as a silk/wool >blend. It wasn't stiff at all though--very supple, but not too light; dress >weight I'd say. [Sg] Did they call it Askeline? (sp might be wrong). I am still trying to remember where I bought mine from. I know now that it was not Phoenix Textiles. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:30:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3UERM001467 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:30:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3STYF018908 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:28:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3ST7E036432; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:28:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51107.mail.yahoo.com (web51107.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.149]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6T3SP7E036359 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:28:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040729032819.33245.qmail@web51107.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.243.34] by web51107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:28:19 PDT Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:28:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Subject: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Mmm, interesting supposition, is there evidence to support it as a universal? Marc 1) No birth control 2) Women were their husbands property We aren't just talking royalty here but all the rest of the population, you know, the poor people. Why would you think it otherwise? Cheri Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:31:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3VnRM001471 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:31:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3VFYF019094 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:31:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3VD7E037987; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:31:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3V97E037957 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:31:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bq1dM-0005DS-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:31:08 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Interesting finds Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:31:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c4751c$7d525ba0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <016001c4751b$70d39de0$cb6afea9@sherry> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Without checking my sources I think the side saddle was introduced by one of the Medici's of Elizabeth's time. But you do see the side chairs before then. What can't figure out is how those ladies rode pillion. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:36:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3aPRM001485 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:36:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3ZvYF019366 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:35:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3Zt7E040472; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:35:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3Zr7E040448 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:35:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bq1hv-0000RO-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:35:51 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:35:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c4751d$25e67c60$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Silk and Wool blend Fabrics. Aleskine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I finally found it again. FashionFabricsclub.com sells this. I bought a bunch and washed it up. I am not sure which is the right side but it now has a heavy dense drape. Anyone else had any experience with it? One side looks like Shantung and the other just sort of a normal weave. Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:41:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3fBRM001491 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:41:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3eRYF019843 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:40:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3eN7E043210; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:40:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ns3.linuxwebnet.com (ns3.linuxwebnet.com [216.133.76.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6T3eK7E043058 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:40:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from judymitch@oldwaylane.net) Received: (qmail 11354 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2004 04:16:39 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.249.153.166.dial1.washington2.level3.net (HELO oldwaylane.net) (4.249.153.166) by shada.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 2004 04:16:39 -0000 Message-ID: <410870B3.8050907@oldwaylane.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:36:19 -0400 From: Judy Mitchell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. References: <000201c4751b$deddc860$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000201c4751b$deddc860$6a01a8c0@SG01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > I have been ordering Linen from fabric-store.com for several years and it is > slubby. It is also not very tightly woven. Their new ''less'' slubby even > more so. They do have a swatch service, so I would recommend ordering > those. Have you checked Denver Fabrics? They've got 3 weights of white linen 2.95oz, 5.2oz & 7.85oz all for under $7-$8. It does look less slubby than fabrics-store, a friend who has been there said it was very nice. check and see if they swatch? -Judy Mitchell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:45:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3jvRM001509 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:45:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3jKYF020232 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:45:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3jJ7E046042; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:45:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3jG7E046018 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:45:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from alderweb@vaxxine.com) Received: from pc.vaxxine.com (ppp205.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.232.205]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3j9vj015357 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:45:13 -0400 (EDT) X-RCPT-To: Message-Id: <4.3.0.20040728235036.00ab9100@pop.vaxxine.com> X-Sender: alderweb@vaxxine.com@pop.vaxxine.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:50:38 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: david webb Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Linda Baumgarten has a large section on 18th century dress during pregnancy, Chapter 5, in her book "What Clothes Reveal" based on last year's Colonial Williamsburg exhibit. Sheridan Alder _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:48:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3mCRM001521 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:48:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3kCYF020274 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:46:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3k97E046521; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:46:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3k77E046493 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:46:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from alderweb@vaxxine.com) Received: from pc.vaxxine.com (ppp205.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.232.205]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3k1vj019174 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:46:04 -0400 (EDT) X-RCPT-To: Message-Id: <4.3.0.20040728235110.00ac1a90@pop.vaxxine.com> X-Sender: alderweb@vaxxine.com@pop.vaxxine.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:51:30 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: david webb Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Linda Baumgarten has a large section on 18th century dress during pregnancy, Chapter 5, in her book "What Clothes Reveal" based on last year's Colonial Williamsburg exhibit. Sheridan Alder _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:53:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3rERM001566 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:53:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3qCYF020581 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:52:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3qA7E049747; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:52:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3q67E049718 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:52:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bq1xe-0003FQ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:52:06 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:52:06 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c4751f$6ad27570$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <410870B3.8050907@oldwaylane.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks, I just ordered a bunch of swatches. They have Irish, Belgian, and Italian linens to! > > Have you checked Denver Fabrics? They've >got 3 weights of white linen 2.95oz, 5.2oz & 7.85oz all for under $7-$8. >It does look less slubby than fabrics-store, a friend who has been there >said it was very nice. check and see if they swatch? > > -Judy Mitchell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:55:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3tMRM001588 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:55:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3skYF020747 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:54:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3sj7E051183; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:54:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3se7F051145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:54:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6T3q1tY022650 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:52:02 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410874FE.8030604@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:54:38 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval References: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFD3@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Jean Waddie wrote: > Thanks for the clarification. I think this is the issue. It's OK if > the join between upper garment and hose is at the waist, but if the hose > only come up to the thigh, you get that strange > shoulder-connected-to-thigh effect which creates the puppet-strings > feeling. My husband's top of the thigh-high hose are linen, and he doesn't tie them tightly; he has garters under the knees. There is thus enough ease that he doesn't get the puppet effect. cv enjoying watching the info come across the list. Educational. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jul 28 23:56:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T3uaRM001597 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:56:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3tcYF020824 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:55:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3tc7E051698; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:55:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T3tV7E051617 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:55:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m141.in-tch.com [216.166.191.141]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6T3tMY03227 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:55:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <41087624.1090907@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:59:32 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting finds References: <016001c4751b$70d39de0$cb6afea9@sherry> In-Reply-To: <016001c4751b$70d39de0$cb6afea9@sherry> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Dang, that is a nifty one! I like it, too. It reminds me a a proto-ropa--the red being her gown, and the white being some sort of open-front overgown or robe. The hairstyles are interesting, too, as is the "perugia towel" being handed to the lady in red/white. I think it's one of the first times I've personally seen that sort of decoration on a linen that *wasn't* a tablecloth! --sue Shane & Sheridan wrote: > I also found this painting; The birth of the Virgin Mary, dated 1365 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/giovanni/milano/birth.jpg > I really like the red and white gown on the young woman on the far left. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:03:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T43NRM001661 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:03:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T42iYF021284 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:02:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T42h7E055685; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:02:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T41K7E054950 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:01:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m141.in-tch.com [216.166.191.141]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6T41CY05144 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:01:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <41087784.40803@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:05:24 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. References: <000201c4751b$deddc860$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000201c4751b$deddc860$6a01a8c0@SG01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've ordered gobs of linen from fabrics-store.com, and I have to at least partially agree with Saragrace. I've found the quality, slubbiness-wise, to be a bit uneven from order to order. Currently, though, I'm the proud owner of an entire 20 yd roll of their handkerchief linen (designated for various shifts and undergowns), and it's beautiful--not a slub in sight. So I think it just depends.... I also scored some exceedingly fine, light linen (voile?) from Pastische in June--they're an SCA-oriented merchant out of An Tir (Oregon area somewhere...maybe Portland?). I know that one of the gals said they were working on getting a website up, so they'll eventually be another possible source for linen (and they sell other fibers, too...a friend made off with some veil-weight creamy-white wool, and I have a length of lovely, garnet-red wool that will be a gown some day). --sue Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > I have been ordering Linen from fabric-store.com for several years and it is > slubby. It is also not very tightly woven. Their new ''less'' slubby even > more so. They do have a swatch service, so I would recommend ordering > those. > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:03:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T43XRM001664 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:03:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T42wYF021304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:02:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T42w7E055811; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:02:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T42d7F055674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:02:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T43D9m031164 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:03:14 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:09:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407290156.i6T1uZ7F085161@net.indra.com> <410862FA.50604@verizon.net> In-Reply-To: <410862FA.50604@verizon.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407290009.01110.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 28 July 2004 10:37 pm, Maura Folsom wrote: > Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > >Speaking of tough-to-find fabric, has anyone on this list *ever* seen > > diamond twill weave fabric for sale? [snip] > > I actually have some that I found in a discount fabrics warehouse (in > the Dallas fabric district). Small diamonds, even. The only thing wrong > with it is that it's rayon. A very silky rayon, so it has a lovely hand > and drape, though. > > That and it's ... black and white. OUCH to look at. I plan to overdye > it, probably some will end up blue/black and some red/black. > > I haven't made myself a thing out if it yet, it's being hoarded. Hmmm. Thank you; at least I know such a thing is commercially available--somewhere.... -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:13:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T4DsRM001693 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:13:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4DDYF021867 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:13:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4DC7E061501; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:13:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4D77F061464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:13:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T4DeaF031810 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:13:41 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:19:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407290019.27688.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=PLING_QUERY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tuesday 27 July 2004 11:24 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jul 2004, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: [snip] [You said:] > > > You also wondered whether a miniaturist (as opposed to a sculptor) > > > would use the same color for both surcote and undergown. Actually, > > > there are plenty of examples of overgown/undergown combinations in the > > > same colors (I just footnoted a couple in a paper I was writing, but > > > focusing about 50 years earlier, so not the same styles, I'm afraid). [and I rejoined:] > > Ah, but in the same exact shades of the same colors? > > Yup. Though I suspect the choice is often compositional -- e.g. to > simplify the painting of, or the visual impact of, a figure that is small > or has a minor role in the scene. Hmmm. If that was the case, I wonder why it would be important to show the figure in a surcoat at all.... > > Sorry, but I don't want to take the time to start hunting up examples > right now. Too much time spent on e-mail this week as is ;-) Me too. No, there's certainly no rush; I raised this issue out of pure intellectual curiosity. You certainly don't need to hunt through your art library to satisfy my idle musings. > > I wasn't expecting a white plastron; I don't view those as > > indispensable to surcoats, let alone to depictions of (symbolic) > > surcoats in art. > > Actually, for the first half of the 15th c., fur (meaning white fur) is > virtually always used in depictions, consistent with the use of the gown > as a royal robe (or symbol of royalty). Surcotes with fabric fronts seem > to disappear by around 1410, though there's certainly an exception here > and there. I'd never really charted the development of the surcoat, in fashion or art, but that sounds consistent with what I remember. > By the late 15th c., though, you start seeing some strange and > fanciful variations on the surcote as might be expected from artists who > are inventing them rather than representing a known garment. So in that > time you see artists occasionally depart from the fur-fronted depictions > to use whatever material they find useful for their purposes. Right. By then, the surcoat was, at most, worn only by certain women on ceremonial occasions. > In this case, the artist apparently still had enough grounding in > tradition to use fur for Fortuna's surcote, so he was making a departure > from the traditional depiction to use a non-fur front for Felicite. I > suspect, though, this was a choice of convenience or afterthought, perhaps > second to the intention to robe Felicite in Mary's colors (blue robe, red > mantle). > > > The dress itself is a rather deep blue on my monitor, and no > > highlighting is visible on the line in question at all. In fact, I > > had to look several times even to *see* the line in question. > > I don't have Photoshop so can't send you a lightened version, but if you'd > like, I'll send you a crop of the figure with some lines hand-drawn over > the original lines in so you can see the position of them. There's enough > of the blue figure showing to allow for a clear pair of surcote curves. If you're willing to do that, I would appreciate it, Robin, when you get a chance. Thank you for educating me on the issues involved. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:24:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T4OQRM001741 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:24:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4NjYF022390 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:23:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4Ni7E067632; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:23:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4Nf7F067608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:23:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T4ODVE032388 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:24:15 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:30:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000201c4751b$deddc860$6a01a8c0@SG01> <41087784.40803@in-tch.com> In-Reply-To: <41087784.40803@in-tch.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407290030.00729.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 29 July 2004 12:05 am, Sue Clemenger wrote: > I've ordered gobs of linen from fabrics-store.com, and I have to at > least partially agree with Saragrace. I've found the quality, > slubbiness-wise, to be a bit uneven from order to order. > Currently, though, I'm the proud owner of an entire 20 yd roll of their > handkerchief linen (designated for various shifts and undergowns), and > it's beautiful--not a slub in sight. So I think it just depends.... It may just depend upon the type of linen you order from them, as well. I have, thus far, ordered linen from fabrics-store.com twice. One was a dark blue, lightweight linen which was a bit slubby (but for the use I had in mind it didn't matter). The other was a heavier weight in white which was slubbier. I've also ordered a swatch of a hanky weight white that looked very un-slubby indeed. My guess is that their heavier weights and colored linens are likelier to be slubby. Unfortunately, they don't carry very many light or hanky weight linens. :-( > I also scored some exceedingly fine, light linen (voile?) from Pastische > in June--they're an SCA-oriented merchant out of An Tir (Oregon area > somewhere...maybe Portland?). Pastiche sells linen? I thought they were a book dealer! > I know that one of the gals said they > were working on getting a website up, so they'll eventually be another > possible source for linen (and they sell other fibers, too...a friend > made off with some veil-weight creamy-white wool, and I have a length of > lovely, garnet-red wool that will be a gown some day). That would be neat. Thanks for the comment. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:28:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T4SkRM001762 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:28:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4S8YF022614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4S87E070119; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4S67F070088 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-98.sonic.net [209.148.112.98]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T4S4M8016095 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:28:05 -0700 Message-ID: <41087E0B.4070700@lavoltapress.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:33:15 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy References: <20040729032819.33245.qmail@web51107.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040729032819.33245.qmail@web51107.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well, this is going from memory, but I recall from a history seminar that there are many ancient methods of birth control. Of course, not everyone in every place knew about available birth control methods and some people were opposed to them. Anyway, there's premature withdrawal (the modern interpretation of what Onan was up to), various ways of getting sperm out of the vagina, condoms of some sort have been around for centuries (originally an attempt to prevent VD), also I think there are some very old barrier methods. None of these are a sure thing, but many are better than nothing. There are also various herbal and manual abortion methods. Finally, there's infanticide, which although it doesn't prevent pregnancy cuts down on the work and expense of child rearing. Fran Grimble http://www.lavoltapress.com Cheri wrote: > > >Mmm, interesting supposition, is there evidence to support it as a >universal? > >Marc > >1) No birth control > >2) Women were their husbands property > >We aren't just talking royalty here but all the rest of the population, you know, the poor people. Why would you think it otherwise? > >Cheri > > > >Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be >those you know hereafter." > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:29:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T4T3RM001765 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:29:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4RAYF022567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:27:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4R97E069547; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:27:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4R57F069522 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:27:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T4Rccb032571 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:27:39 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk Denim Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:33:25 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000701c4751c$135d6b40$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000701c4751c$135d6b40$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407290033.25084.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 28 July 2004 11:28 pm, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > >I made myself a Kinsale cloak once out of a fabric with the same weave--an > >obvious twill of the "denim" variety. It was sold to me as a silk/wool > >blend. It wasn't stiff at all though--very supple, but not too light; >> dressweight I'd say. > > [Sg] Did they call it Askeline? (sp might be wrong). If you mean "tricotine," no. I bought it in Philadelphia years ago at one of those high-end fabric stores where a clerk brings you samples based on your description of what you want, in much the same way that you shop for engagement diamonds. The prices were, to my student budget at the time, insane (I think they charged me $20 a yard for it) but it's simply beautiful, even twenty years later. But I don't remember the salesman calling it askeline, tricotine, or anything like that; he just said it was a silk-wool blend. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:29:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T4TBRM001769 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:29:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4SZYF022644 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4SW7E070315; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4SU7F070293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:28:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T4T4Ih032659 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:29:05 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk and Wool blend Fabrics. Aleskine Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:34:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000001c4751d$25e67c60$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000001c4751d$25e67c60$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407290034.51705.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.2 required=5.0 tests=NO_EXPERIENCE autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 28 July 2004 11:35 pm, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > I finally found it again. FashionFabricsclub.com sells this. I bought a > bunch and washed it up. I am not sure which is the right side but it now > has a heavy dense drape. Anyone else had any experience with it? One side > looks like Shantung and the other just sort of a normal weave. I have had no experience with aleskine, and the silk-wool blend I posted about earlier was nothing like what you're describing--it's a twill, and the appearance is essentially the same on both sides, front and back. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:38:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T4cKRM001798 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:38:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4UqYF022753 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:30:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4Up7E071527; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:30:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4Ul7F071490 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:30:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T4VJUV000337 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:31:21 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:37:07 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000501c4751f$6ad27570$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000501c4751f$6ad27570$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407290037.07135.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 28 July 2004 11:52 pm, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > Thanks, I just ordered a bunch of swatches. They have Irish, Belgian, and > Italian linens to! > > > Have you checked Denver Fabrics? > > They've>got 3 weights of white linen 2.95oz, 5.2oz & 7.85oz all for under > >$7-$8. >It does look less slubby than fabrics-store, a friend who has been > >there said it was very nice. check and see if they swatch? They swatch, though they charge a small shipping fee for doing so (I think the fee is something like $1.00 per swatch). I bought some all cotton velvet from them recently for a Victorian dress which was positively dreamy--thick, soft, supple, and richly colored. I've never looked into their linen, though. Maybe I'll check that out.... -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:42:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T4gWRM001807 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:42:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4fvYF023303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:41:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4fu7E077570; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:41:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f33.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.83]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4fp7E077510 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:41:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:41:45 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.95 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:41:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.95] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:41:44 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2004 04:41:45.0123 (UTC) FILETIME=[59EE8F30:01C47526] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Cheri >>Mmm, interesting supposition, is there evidence to support it as a >>universal? >1) No birth control >2) Women were their husbands property >We aren't just talking royalty here but all the rest of the population, you >know, the poor people. >Why would you think it otherwise? Simple research. If we assume that no birth control and women are men's property are the only reasons married women would be pregnant all the time, then we should be able to model what was happening in the 15th century with data from other times, yes? Pulling up my genealogical research on number of children per couple before 1900, I get an even sloping chart starting at 0 children per couple down to 11+ in a database of over 5000 people reaching back to the 1600s, and a life span bell curve peaking at 70-79. This suggests to me that while some women -were- in fact popping them out with regularity between the ages of 14 and 50, it's improbable that they all were. Most families in this data set had a number of children, with a few years between them. This also includes couples who are infertile, women dying in childbirth and so on. An interesting side note, based on my anthropology classes back in the dark ages -- in cultures without reliable birth control, frequently women nurse to a much greater age since apparently women who are nursing are less likely to get pregnant while nursing (not reliable birth control by any means, but apparently it works to some extent). I just find the assumption that all married women were constantly pregnant during their childbearing years unlikely. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:48:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T4msRM001825 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:48:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4mKYF023614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:48:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4mI7E080925; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:48:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4mE7F080898 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:48:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6T4jatY023346 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:45:36 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4108818D.6020506@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:48:13 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy References: <20040729032819.33245.qmail@web51107.mail.yahoo.com> <41087E0B.4070700@lavoltapress.com> In-Reply-To: <41087E0B.4070700@lavoltapress.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lavolta Press wrote: > Well, this is going from memory, but I recall from a history seminar > that there are many ancient methods of birth control. Of course, not > everyone in every place knew about available birth control methods and > some people were opposed to them. >> 1) No birth control Oh, definitely, yes, Fran. I attended a lecture in college about medieval birth control. They had something like a cervical cap, and for those who didn't have that, advocated half a juiced-out lemon if you could get it, or other substances made in that shape. And that's only the things I remember. I known there's a whole book out there about medieval birth control; I saw it years ago and I should have bought it. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 00:53:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T4rYRM001869 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:53:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4obYF023708 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:50:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4ob7E082176; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:50:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T4oZ7E082167 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:50:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from heather.jones@earthlink.net) Received: from h-68-167-204-165.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net ([68.167.204.165] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bq2sE-0005fF-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:50:35 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20040729032819.33245.qmail@web51107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040729032819.33245.qmail@web51107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 21:49:59 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Restoring some original context and clarifying the attributions ... Cheri wrote: >A married woman would be pregnant most of her life. Then Marc asked: >Mmm, interesting supposition, is there evidence to support it as a >universal? To which Cheri responded: >1) No birth control > >2) Women were their husbands property > >We aren't just talking royalty here but all the rest of the >population, you know, the poor people. Why would you think it >otherwise? Even ordinary poor people leave traces of their lives in the historic record, and those traces leave some solid evidence for thinking otherwise. Leaving aside the issue that legal conditions varied widely across cultures and time-periods, the notion of women being "their husbands property" in the pre-modern period has much more basis in modern mythology than in history. Heather -- **** Heather Rose Jones heather.jones@earthlink.net **** _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 01:05:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T55VRM001931 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:05:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T52BYF024181 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:02:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5287E088237; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:02:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from incoming.SIGENETICS.com ([209.172.110.194]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5277E088133 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:02:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sbuchler@silicongenetics.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:02:00 -0700 Message-ID: <0D3431E0FD777844A4ED9507E4D698D90D2735@incoming.sigenetics.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: h-costume Digest, Vol 3, Issue 596 Thread-Index: AcR1IJokIvWuPDj0QD+87DRljMzXtwABqR5Q From: "Sunny Buchler" To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6T5277E088133 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy (off topic) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >> Mmm, interesting supposition, is there evidence to support it as a >> universal? >> >> Marc > > 1) No birth control > > 2) Women were their husbands property > > We aren't just talking royalty here but all the rest of the > population, you know, the poor people. Why would you think > it otherwise? > > Cheri > According to Richard Adair _Courtship, Illegitimacy and Marriage in Early Modern England_ the average age of marriage for non-nobles in the ~1580-1600 was 24 for women and 26 for men (which incidentally, isn't that far off our current average). Even presuming that married women spent most of their married lives pregnant, they're not marrying extramly early in England (though they did in France). It has absolutely no costume content, but for anyone who's interested _Courtship, Illegitimacy and Marriage in Early Modern England_ is a facinating study of English Church birth and marriage records in order to try to study courtship practices and such. It's rather heavy on the math, and much more narrow in focus then most books on the subject. -sunny _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 01:21:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T5LiRM002016 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:21:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5JxYF025085 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:19:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5JF7E097068; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:19:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5JE7E097056 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:19:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bq3Jy-0000xZ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:19:14 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Silk and Wool blend Fabrics. Aleskine Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:19:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c4752b$97097740$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: <200407290034.51705.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6T5JE7E097056 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think we are getting confused here. I am not talking about the denim silk/wool blend. I have moved on to a different topic. Sg >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Catherine Olanich Raymond >Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:35 PM >To: Historical Costume >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk and Wool blend Fabrics. Aleskine > >On Wednesday 28 July 2004 11:35 pm, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: >> I finally found it again. FashionFabricsclub.com sells this. I bought a >> bunch and washed it up. I am not sure which is the right side but it now >> has a heavy dense drape. Anyone else had any experience with it? One side >> looks like Shantung and the other just sort of a normal weave. > >I have had no experience with aleskine, and the silk-wool blend I posted about >earlier was nothing like what you're describing--it's a twill, and the >appearance is essentially the same on both sides, front and back. > > >-- >Cathy Raymond > >"Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue >that counts."--Winston Churchill >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 01:33:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T5XsRM002078 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:33:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5XIYF025667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:33:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5Wf7E003975; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:32:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5We7E003943 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:32:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15855 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:37:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:37:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! In-Reply-To: <200407290019.27688.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin: > > > > You also wondered whether a miniaturist (as opposed to a sculptor) > > > > would use the same color for both surcote and undergown. Actually, > > > > there are plenty of examples of overgown/undergown combinations in the > > > > same colors (I just footnoted a couple in a paper I was writing, but > > > > focusing about 50 years earlier, so not the same styles, I'm afraid). Catherine: > > > Ah, but in the same exact shades of the same colors? Robin: > > Yup. Though I suspect the choice is often compositional -- e.g. to > > simplify the painting of, or the visual impact of, a figure that is small > > or has a minor role in the scene. Catherine: > Hmmm. If that was the case, I wonder why it would be important to show the > figure in a surcoat at all.... I'm referring to all types of overgown/undergown combinations, not sideless surcotes in particular. Most noble figures are shown in multiple layers, and there are a lot of over/under variations over the 15th c.! Most surcotes, though, have fur plastrons, so the same-color-surcote isn't a common issue. But once the artist decides not to make the plastron fur, there's no barrier against him making it the same color as the undergown. > If you're willing to do that, I would appreciate it, Robin, when you > get a chance. Thank you for educating me on the issues involved. Coming separately. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 01:43:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T5hERM002102 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:43:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5gcYF026130 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:42:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T5g17E008565; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:42:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6T5ft7E008444 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:41:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/Omof3vAJp2oEzHwoWEfHFU8= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J3PDRJXT; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:41:46 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:37:45 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. Message-ID: <20040728.224052.592.3.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-8,10-16 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Pastiche is based out of Portland. Their e-mail addy is . To find the website, you might try Googling it. Arlys . So I think it just depends.... > I also scored some exceedingly fine, light linen (voile?) from > Pastische in June--they're an SCA-oriented merchant out of An Tir (Oregon area > somewhere...maybe Portland?). I know that one of the gals said they > were working on getting a website up, so they'll eventually be > another possible source for linen (and they sell other fibers, too...a > friend made off with some veil-weight creamy-white wool, and I have a > length of lovely, garnet-red wool that will be a gown some day). > --sue ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 02:06:50 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T66oRM004066 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:06:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T663YF027314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:06:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T65N7E020344; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:05:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jade.spiritone.com (jade.spiritone.com [216.99.193.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T65L7F020305 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:05:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wandap@hevanet.com) Received: from xena (216-99-218-31.dsl.aracnet.com [216.99.218.31]) (authenticated bits=0) by jade.spiritone.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6T65H31012731 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:05:18 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:13:28 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <20040728.224052.592.3.Cley@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Pastiche is an EVIL PLACE! Go not in to that dark land of temptation lest ye never return as the same man or woman to your friends! Silk, wool, linen, BOOKS! Oh, the horror of it! Regina Romsey (plus they give you a neat little card that you tot up your purchases on and when you reach a certain amount gives you money off your next purchase (grin) > -----Original Message----- > From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com]On > Behalf Of Cynthia J Ley > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 10:38 PM > To: h-costume@indra.com > Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. > > > Pastiche is based out of Portland. Their e-mail addy is > . > > To find the website, you might try Googling it. > > Arlys > > . So I think it just depends.... > > I also scored some exceedingly fine, light linen (voile?) from > > Pastische in June--they're an SCA-oriented merchant out of An Tir > (Oregon area > > somewhere...maybe Portland?). I know that one of the gals said they > > were working on getting a website up, so they'll eventually be > > another possible source for linen (and they sell other fibers, too...a > > friend made off with some veil-weight creamy-white wool, and I have a > > length of lovely, garnet-red wool that will be a gown some day). > > --sue > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 02:16:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T6GYRM007374 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:16:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6G0YF027983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:16:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6FO7E025667; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:15:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6FI7F025618 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:15:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6T6Fr9o006233 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:15:55 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Silk and Wool blend Fabrics. Aleskine Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:21:40 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <000201c4752b$97097740$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000201c4752b$97097740$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407290221.40711.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 29 July 2004 1:19 am, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > I think we are getting confused here. I am not talking about the denim > silk/wool blend. I have moved on to a different topic. My apologies. I did not mean to help create confusion. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 02:29:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T6TLRM011692 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:29:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6SvYF028556 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:28:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6SK7E032140; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:28:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp3.pacifier.net (smtp3.pacifier.net [64.255.237.173]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6SE7E032068 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:28:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from scourney@nwlink.com) Received: from susan (ip157.usw235.dsl-acs2.sea.iinet.com [207.202.235.157]) by smtp3.pacifier.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0313C6E3E0 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <016601c47536$33742530$0200a8c0@susan> From: "Susan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <00f601c474d2$20a1df10$0400a8c0@compaqub> <200407281955.32448.cathy@thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:35:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, I saw some last month at a local Jo-anns, Diamond (not broken) twill cotton flannel in the quilting section. the line was called Home Essentials (I think). I didn't buy any cause it wasn't in a color I usually wear. I changed my mind and went back, but it was gone. This was one of the ones that is moving, so who knows if it was ever in the regular stores. Or how long ago. Susan > > Speaking of tough-to-find fabric, has anyone on this list *ever* seen diamond > twill weave fabric for sale? I'm interested in wool, since that was an > important fabric in the Viking period, but at this point I'd take an > appropriate weave in almost *any* natural fiber. I _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 02:56:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T6uXRM021385 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:56:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6u0YF029648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:56:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6tJ7E046463; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:55:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay8-f111.bay8.hotmail.com [64.4.27.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6tG7E046390 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:55:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from caithlinn@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:55:11 -0700 Received: from 130.102.116.207 by by8fd.bay8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:55:10 GMT X-Originating-IP: [130.102.116.207] X-Originating-Email: [caithlinn@hotmail.com] X-Sender: caithlinn@hotmail.com From: "C M" To: h-costume@net.indra.com Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:55:10 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2004 06:55:11.0457 (UTC) FILETIME=[FE142D10:01C47538] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Diamond twill source X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, A place in Sweden sells diamond twill wool. It's 150cm wide, and costs around $45 per meter. This is the URl: http://www.handelsgillet.se/tyger.htm#diamantkypert. The last time I looked they were sold out of all but one (red/black), but they mention in the description (sorry, swedish only) that they are trying to get more colour variants. They do international business and welcome enquiries: kontakt@handelsgillet.se. Hope this helps, Caithlinn _________________________________________________________________ Smart Saving with ING Direct – earn 5.25% p.a. variable rate: http://ad.au.doubleclick.net/clk;7249209;8842331;n?http://www.ingdirect.com.au/burst6offer.asp?id=8 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 03:00:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T70CRM022938 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:00:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6xOYF029756 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:59:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6wm7E048406; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:58:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T6wj7F048302 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:58:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.134]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i6T74B9c015404 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:04:11 +1000 Message-ID: <025601c47539$2f567f40$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <00f601c474d2$20a1df10$0400a8c0@compaqub><200407281955.32448.cathy@thyrsus.com> <016601c47536$33742530$0200a8c0@susan> Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:56:23 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Speaking of tough-to-find fabric, has anyone on this list *ever* seen > diamond > > twill weave fabric for sale? I'm interested in wool, since that was an > > important fabric in the Viking period, but at this point I'd take an > > appropriate weave in almost *any* natural fiber. I > > > I got some Diamond-twill heavy-weight wool from a Regia Anglorum supplier in the UK called Ali. Just finished my Anglo-Saxon tunic from it. It was the last of the bolt of a mid green, but as he gets them made up by the bolt from a factory, he may well get some more in. It was 5 pounds/metre. He was just about to move when we saw him a year ago. Does anyone here have his contact details? Australian merino wool is not a decent approximation for english wool, and non-merino wool is very hard to find here. I'd like to get some more decent thickness wool. Glenda. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 03:57:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T7vkRM009213 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:57:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T7v6YF002295 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:57:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T7uI7E076604; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:56:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from www6.plugit.com (mail1.plugit.com [66.210.223.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T7uE7E076540 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:56:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penny@costumegallery.com) Received: from costumegallery.com [66.210.222.51] by www6.plugit.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AC86285B00F2; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:51:34 -0500 Received: from MOM [69.241.150.7] by costumegallery.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.15) id AC5C68A00EC; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:50:52 -0500 Message-ID: <005901c47541$60cd7c60$0300a8c0@MOM> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:55:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Plugit.com Electroshield (www.plugit.com) for viruses. X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by ElectroSHIELD (www.plugit.com) for spam. X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Pregnancy... what an interesting topic for me to jump in on since I either had one on me or one in me throughout the 1980s. Once was interviewed by our local PBS radio station and was asked who was my favorite designer of the 1980s... I said "Pampers!" Sure wish I had them for my son born in '76... or could have afforded them. I play/research.... its a hobby... with the pregnancy subject and feminine protection devices/aides for the 19th Century and 20th Century. I do have some maternity patterns in my Delineator magazines from the 1890s. I think... there may be one for the late 1880s. I really don't want to go check on that Delineator shelf right now. Too many books pulled off the shelves for research right now. I did come across an interesting advertisement/announcement in a 1926, Dry Goods Trade Journal this week about the Kotex Company battling with other manufacturers who were trying to pass their products off as Kotex napkins.WOW!!! They were pretty pissed. It was three full pages long. There was a really detailed article a few years ago about 19th Century ladies' sanitary products in Dress, the Journal for Costume Society of America. AGAIN, I am not going near those bookshelves and pulling another thing off of it. So if you want an issue of that journal, go to www.costumesocietyamerica.com and click on *Dress* and you will see a listing of the articles in each journal. Back copies can be purchased from them. Still with the pregnancy topic... we recently watched the film, Mona Lisa Smile. BTW, the costumes, hair, and makeup were great in the film! I really can not figure out why the critics really disliked this film, except that they were too young to remember or know what this generation of women went through. For those who haven't seen the film, the issue was why did the brightest women in the U.S., go to the best women's college in the U.S., with the goal to get married & have babies and not have a career. The etiquette classes in the film were perfect. OMG, it reminded me of Home Ec. classes. I think I really got a better understanding of the film, after my mom recently visited for three weeks. Mom who is 70 y.o. next month, was explaining to my younger kids what it was like to be a female growing up in the end of the depression, WW2 and post-WW2, and the 1950s. My 12 y.o. daughter and my Mom got into some heavy discussions about what it was like to be a female during these times. My daughter even brought her friends over for mom to talk with them about the subject. One thing Mom stressed that when WW2 was over, the women were to put their jobs in the factories down and go back to working at home. She said there was a big push in the media for women to do this. The men needed the jobs to support their families. Having four children wasn't considered a large family, during this time frame. I remember when I was in 3rd to 5th grade and a family with six kids moved in down the road. We thought they had a small family!!! That was in the mid-60s. Having a large family was considered a commodity (spelling off tonight) during many time periods. If you lived on a farm, it was more people who could work. In the city, a large family was still more people to work once they reached a certain age. This brought more $$$ into the household, especially if a family owned a business. The children would work the family business. I can bring this back into the fashion ream... back a few weeks ago, I asked the list about did the Worth House exist after Charles son's died. A few design houses were passed on to family members. I am trying to track them down, and do a type of web/chart on the designers. Amazing how many early designer's were sent off to be apprentice's design houses at 12 y.o. Back to maternity clothing... the person who has the claim of first manufacturing maternity clothing was the company Lane Bryant. We have one of their 1922 maternity catalogs online at http://www.costumegallery.com/1922/Maternity/ . This is one of our free access areas of our Library thanks to a Costume Society grant. I also have a Lane Bryant Stout Women's catalog from this time period (not online, and on the bookshelf) and there really isn't much difference in the fashions. What is really interesting in this maternity catalog are the maternity brassieres and corsets. Okay... I am finished rambling... been up 24 hours straight and ran Pat back and forth to the Doobie Brothers' concert three times today...44 miles roundtrip during rush hours. My son's, Patrick, gigs are moving up into the bigger band concerts. FYI, for those Patrick career followers, this summer he has worked lighting and/or sound for Starship (aka Jefferson Airplane) and the Fixx (80s British band), and now the Doobie Brothers. Before he leaves for Liverpool, he will have worked concerts for the Gin Blossoms, Dr. Hook and the Medicine Show, Marshall Tucker Band, Drifters and Coasters, and the Little River Band. He also has a play for two weeks with the Richmond city parks & recreation, then we are off to England. YIPPEE!!!!!!!! GOOD NIGHT ALL!!!!!!!!!!! Penny E. Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery & Costume Classroom www.costumegallery.com www.costumeclassroom.com [This E-mail was scanned for viruses by Plugit.com Virus Scanners (http://www.plugit.com)] _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 04:09:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T89LRM014912 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:09:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T86XYF002909 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:06:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T85v7E081416; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:05:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from quartz.stoneage.mglarc.com ([212.17.54.27]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6T85t7F081324 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:05:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lstrid@mglarc.com) Received: from oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com ([10.10.1.22]) by quartz.stoneage.mglarc.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.0.59) with SMTP id M2004072909075532755 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:07:55 +0100 Received: by oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id <3YQCKL1D>; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:03:21 +0100 Message-ID: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A64EF@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> From: Lena Strid To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:03:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6T85t7F081324 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There is an image of the pregnant Elizabeth greeting (the equally pregnant) Mary by the Master of the Life of Mary (?), and you can see that Elizabeth's dress is laced open at the side. It was in the Medieval Women calendars a few years ago, and I believe it can be found online at Artchive or a similar source. /Lena -----Original Message----- From: Shane & Sheridan [mailto:shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca] Sent: 28 July 2004 18:26 To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy I know something similar to this was on the list a while ago, but of course all of the related posts have long since been deleted off of my computer. :-) I am looking for paintings and illuminations depicting pregnant women for a friend of mine who will be doing a discussion of pregnancy and child-rearing and how to garb appropriately for such things. :-) Her paper/class notes are already written, she just wanted some appropriate pictures to add to her discussion. I think what she is looking for is a range of periods, just to show how women adapted their fashion to their needs. I already have one or two, just wanting to know if anyone else has anything handy. Thanks all! Sheridan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side, and it holds the universe together. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ================================================= Margaret Gowen & Co. Ltd. Archaeological Consultants & Project Managers 2 Killiney View Tel: 01-2300433 Albert Road Lower Fax: 01-2300865 Glenageary e-mail: archaeology@mglarc.com Co. Dublin website: http://www.mglarc.com ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is private and confidential and may contain legally privileged information. If you are not named above as an addressee it may be unlawful for you to read, copy, distribute, disclose or otherwise use the information in this email. If you are not the intended recipient of this email please contact our systems administrator. Thank you. NOTE Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company or its associated companies unless otherwise specifically stated. This email message has passed through a "Symantec Mail Security for SMTP" server and has been checked for both virus and spam content. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 04:21:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T8LDRM017095 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:21:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T8JCYF004432 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:19:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T8JA7E087940; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:19:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T8J97E087800 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:19:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6T8JSC15686.; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:19:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:18:48 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:18:21 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ali supplies the Sealed Knot as well - I bought the linen for my Hollar cap from him a couple of months ago. Try www.hertsfabrics.co.uk Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> glendar@compassnet.com.au 29/07/2004 07:56:23 >>> I got some Diamond-twill heavy-weight wool from a Regia Anglorum supplier in the UK called Ali. He was just about to move when we saw him a year ago. Does anyone here have his contact details? ____________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 04:35:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T8ZYRM020602 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:35:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T8Z9YF005220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:35:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T8Z37E095757; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:35:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk (mail1.derby.ac.uk [193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T8Yu7E095608 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:35:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6T8ZTC17460.; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:35:30 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:34:49 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:34:14 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: RE: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO For lower-class 18th century, see Hogarth's "The March to Finchley" http://www.peterwestern.f9.co.uk/hogarth/hogarth37.html I agree it wasn't universal for married women to be perpetually pregnant in early modern times, but it was common enough to be unremarkable, and not thought of as a sign that the husband was especially inconsiderate. There must have been a lot more pregnant women around than there are in developed countries today. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 04:54:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T8scRM030919 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:54:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T8s2YF006403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:54:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T8s07E006218; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:54:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mailrelay.k12.hi.us (mailrelay.k12.hi.us [165.248.247.161]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T8rw7E006156 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:53:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisleong@k12.hi.us) Received: from WS-002 (webshield1.k12.hi.us [165.248.247.154]) by mailrelay.k12.hi.us (Postfix) with SMTP id BFD553F18 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:53:22 -1000 (HST) Received: FROM makani BY WS-002 ; Wed Jul 28 22:57:58 2004 -1000 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 22:51:12 -1000 (HST) From: annora X-X-Sender: lisleong@makani To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <00ee01c474db$3e9aaac0$cb6afea9@sherry> Message-ID: References: <200407282006.i6SK69uh045238@sabre.goldsword.com> <00ee01c474db$3e9aaac0$cb6afea9@sherry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Definitley anything pre-1600 would be fantastic. http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownLady25.jpg This is illustration 136 in Visual History of Costume and it says Unknown lady, c.1595 W. Segar (attr.) Note The costume worn by this lady has been adapted to accomodate her advanced state of pregnancy. Other portraits of women in a similar condition, but wearing far less comfortable clothes, have survived. ...But of course it doesn't mention what those portraits are :(. --annora _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 05:04:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T94dRM001907 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:04:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T93uYF006888 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:03:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T93r7E011371; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:03:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T93p7E011319 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:03:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:02:31 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval AND request for refs.... To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFDE@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] holding up hose, medieval AND request for refs.... Thread-Index: AcR04LtAvk+3bcNNSa2OgnVOshbn9QAaVCWg content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Thanks for the clarification. I think this is the issue. It's OK if > the join between upper garment and hose is at the waist, but > if the hose only come up to the thigh, you get that strange > shoulder-connected-to-thigh effect which creates the puppet-strings > feeling. Ah. Nope I don't do anythign that early so haven't worn any like that (depite the lads in the late14th century group I'm in *all* wearing them) Anyone got any refs to decnet hose images for the latter half of the 14th century? I'm still feeling my way in this period and I could be wrong but it just strike me thatthis was an earlier version of the hose and by the late 14th century hose had developed into a higher reaching and more shaped garment attached to and upper-body garment......? Any help, pointers and good picture refs would be appreciated Thanks Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 05:36:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6T9aMRM001993 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:36:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T9YUYF008832 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:34:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T9YR7E026496; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:34:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6T9YO7E026460 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:34:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:33:13 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics - diamond weave wool. To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFE0@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics - diamond weave wool. Thread-Index: AcR1D56XkNyMmzx5Tp+hCVYlX3MfvQAPinkg content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Speaking of tough-to-find fabric, has anyone on this list *ever* seen diamond > twill weave fabric for sale? I'm interested in wool, since that was an > important fabric in the Viking period, but at this point I'd take an > appropriate weave in almost *any* natural fiber. I have occasionally found > hand-woven to order items (like scarves and baby blankets) in the right > weave, but no fabric by the yard. > > For those who aren't familiar with it, the second sample on > the following web page is the type of weave I mean: > > http://www.medievaltextiles.org/gallery/gallery2.html Saw some wool fabrics that looked like that the other week on a traders stall at Tewkesbury. Couple of different colours in a coupleof different sizes of pattern. I noticed them because they were so unusual. Don't know the full fibre content of them, however, they may ahve been wool blends. He's known as "Bernie the Bolt" and trades at lots of U.K re-enactment events, but I don't have any other details than that, I'm afraid. I think the next time I see his stall will probably be at the end of August at the Herstmonceaux Castle Medieval Faire. Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 07:21:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TBLORM002444 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:21:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TBJRYF013875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:19:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TBJE7E080712; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:19:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TBI27E079996 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:18:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:16:55 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [SPAM: 19.615] Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFE7@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [SPAM: 19.615] Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) Thread-Index: AcR1SgBtqNuYDIYVQ7Ge/2Kbs6ybyAAE1DbA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I got some Diamond-twill heavy-weight wool from a Regia Anglorum supplier in > the UK called Ali. Just finished my Anglo-Saxon tunic from it. It was the > last of the bolt of a mid green, but as he gets them made up by the bolt > from a factory, he may well get some more in. It was 5 pounds/metre. > > He was just about to move when we saw him a year ago. Does > anyone here have his contact details? http://www.hertsfabrics.co.uk/ Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 08:23:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TCNMRM002789 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:23:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TCMdYF016818 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:22:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TCMW7E015430; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:22:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TCMR7E015390 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:22:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Received: from 209-165-40-051.jps.net ([209.165.40.51] helo=KALC) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bq9vV-00032Y-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:22:25 -0700 From: "lisa-list" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: OT-RE: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:22:22 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Heather Rose Jones: >Even ordinary poor people leave traces of their lives in the historic record, and those traces leave some solid evidence for thinking otherwise. Leaving aside the issue that legal conditions varied widely across cultures and time-periods, the notion of women being "their husbands property" in the pre-modern period has much more basis in modern mythology than in history. Not so sure I would agree with the basis in modern mythology statement given that there is a significant chunk of men who seem to see their wives today as property (and visa versa)but yes, there would be some public records of birth/marriage etc to give more solid evidence of pregnancy rates. Lisa Sinervo _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 08:53:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TCrHRM002927 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:53:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TCqjYF018283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:52:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TCqi7E032384; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:52:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TCqT7E032251 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:52:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01837 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:57:11 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:57:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) In-Reply-To: <025601c47539$2f567f40$eaf4fea9@glendaii> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Glenda Robinson wrote: > Australian merino wool is not a decent approximation for english wool, > and non-merino wool is very hard to find here. What are the differences? --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 09:00:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TD01RM002999 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:00:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TCxPYF018623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:59:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TCxN7E036306; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:59:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TCxL7E036268 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:59:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01896 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:04:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:04:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <87A506E53AFF4C4CB2C565044BA209E75A64EF@oldntserver.stoneage.mglarc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Lena Strid wrote: > There is an image of the pregnant Elizabeth greeting (the equally > pregnant) Mary by the Master of the Life of Mary (?), and you can see > that Elizabeth's dress is laced open at the side. It was in the > Medieval Women calendars a few years ago, and I believe it can be > found online at Artchive or a similar source. If it's the image I'm thinking of, I believe there are several versions, clearly all copied from the same model. By definition, scenes of the Visitation of Elizabeth and Mary by definition have two pregnant women in them. In medieval art, Mary's clothes usually are too iconic to have much significance for medieval styles, but sometimes Elizabeth's clothes have useful details, such as the opened/extra side lacings. As always, keep the salt shaker handy when making the leap to "real" clothing. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 09:32:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TDW8RM003229 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:32:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TDVFYF020326 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:31:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TDVC7E054960; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:31:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail2.mdx.safepages.com (mail2.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TDV97E054900 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:31:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail2.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 38D541D12AD; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:31:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust3.tnt1.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.148.3]) by mail2.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E3CF1D129A for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:31:05 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <00ff01c47570$8d969720$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <00f601c474d2$20a1df10$0400a8c0@compaqub> <200407281955.32448.cathy@thyrsus.com> Subject: [h-cost] Re: hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:32:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO [Response in-line] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" > Have you tried looking on fabrics-store.com? They sell almost nothing but > linen, and they do free (and I mean free, no shipping charge if you're in the > US or Canada) swatching. The linen I've bought there looks slub free to me, > but perhaps I'm not a sufficiently rigorous judge. Prices average around $5 > - $8 per yard, but you can sometimes find some linens for around $4. ----- Ehh, yeah, I'm ridiculously picky. I want linen with NO slubs, with as close to zero variation in thread diameter as possible. I've finally found a place (the retail store of Fashion Fabrics Club) that occasionally gets lovely slubless linen twill for ~$7/yd, but I've yet to find slubless tabby woven linen for less than ridiculous sums of money. I have found a supplier of slubless linen thread, though, so I'm thinking of weaving the dratted stuff myself. If I ever get a loom. ----- > Speaking of tough-to-find fabric, has anyone on this list *ever* seen diamond > twill weave fabric for sale? I'm interested in wool, since that was an > important fabric in the Viking period, but at this point I'd take an > appropriate weave in almost *any* natural fiber. I have occasionally found > hand-woven to order items (like scarves and baby blankets) in the right > weave, but no fabric by the yard. ----- Now this, I have seen, although you may not like the natural fiber or the weight of the fabric--I wouldn't really consider it suitable for gowns; it's more like jeans-weight: http://www.hempbasics.com/fabric/C5011.asp The weave doesn't show up too well in this picture, but I've got the sample set and yep, it's diamond twill. If you're interested in it, I'll try to get a digital pic of my sample. Take a look at their other fabrics; they've got some weird and wonderful weaves that I have no idea what to call, one or two of which I think are medieval in origin: http://www.hempbasics.com/fabric/index.htm ----- > For those who aren't familiar with it, the second sample on the following web > page is the type of weave I mean: > > http://www.medievaltextiles.org/gallery/gallery2.html ----- Oooo, what a wonderful website! ----- > Any information anyone may have on this subject would be greatly appreciated. > And I'll try to keep my eye peeled for reasonably (?) priced fine white wools > and silk taffeta moires. ----- Thanks! -E House Liberty in Our Lifetime - www.freestateproject.org _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 09:32:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TDWMRM003242 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:32:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TDVeYF020380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:31:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TDVe7E055295; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:31:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts8.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.166]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TDVY7E055191 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:31:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.4.131]) by simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040729133032.QRYC28685.simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:30:32 -0400 Message-ID: <01ea01c47570$06f31f40$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:29:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Fuel for the debate on ruffles X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Still looking for pregnant ladies, I stumble accross this: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/s/simone/4altars/5agostin/6agostin.jpg SIMONE MARTINI, Blessed Agostino Novello Altarpiece (detail) 1324 Now if the resolution on your computer is good enough you should be able to see that the lady carrying the baby has what looks to be a large tuck in the fabric of her dress just above the hem. I also noticed that in pictures just prior to this period the ladies seem to have had an extra swath of fabric around their waist, the dress looks as if it has been pulled up and belted, leaving a drape. Perhaps this was the way of dealing with a change in fashion? rather than cut all of that fabric off, tuck it up and sew it at the hem. Just a thought, back to work! Sheridan *+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+* They say that the pen is mightier than the sword, but which one would you rather be hit with? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:00:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TE0aRM003376 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:00:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TE01YF022208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:00:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TDxw7E073335; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:59:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web13424.mail.yahoo.com (web13424.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.155]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6TDxr7E073288 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:59:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from corbiegirl@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040729135952.88516.qmail@web13424.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.50.148.86] by web13424.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:59:52 PDT Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 06:59:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Mara Riley To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Diamond twill X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin, I bought some diamond twill linen this spring from 96 Fabrics (I think that's the business name) at the Ft. Frederick Market Fair. It's LOVELY stuff... They were trying to find more; they sold a bunch to Sally Queen for her textiles swatch book. Does anyone have their card? (Sorry I can't be more specific) -- Mara __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:19:27 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEJQRM003545 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:19:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEIiYF023727 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:18:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEIg7E086598; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:18:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEIb7E086554 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:18:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BqBjq-0007Mt-00; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:18:30 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:18:31 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c47576$ecf7a5a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200407290221.40711.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Apologies-Off List: was Silk and Wool blend Fabrics. Aleskine X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Subject: Re: Silk and Wool blend Fabrics. Aleskine > >On Thursday 29 July 2004 1:19 am, Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: >> I think we are getting confused here. I am not talking about the denim >> silk/wool blend. I have moved on to a different topic. > >My apologies. I did not mean to help create confusion. > [Sg] I looked back at my response and it now sounds rather terse. I didn't mean it that way. No apologies necessary! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:19:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEJdRM003548 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:19:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEJ3YF023767 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:19:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEJ37E086863; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:19:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts7.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.165]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEIh7E086567 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:18:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.4.131]) by simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040729141723.MRKS18206.simmts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:17:23 -0400 Message-ID: <01f601c47576$9b7d7e20$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:16:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Another interesting find X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This one has a lady wrapping a 'turban', and another is being helped with her stockings/hose. http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/gentile/quarate1.jpg GENTILE DA FABRIANO Quaratesi Altarpiece: St. Nicholas and three poor maidens 1425 Sheridan *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Quaffing is like drinking, but you spill more. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:26:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEQ0RM003589 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:26:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEPPYF024395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:25:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEPI7E091367; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:25:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-dav5.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.10.109]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEPH7E091289 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:25:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:23:24 -0700 Received: from 63.149.20.46 by bay7-dav5.bay7.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:23:24 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [63.149.20.46] X-Originating-Email: [robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com] X-Sender: robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com From: "Kelly Dorman" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:23:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2004 14:23:24.0754 (UTC) FILETIME=[9BBBA320:01C47577] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] beadwork X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6TEQ0RM003589 Status: RO >What a beautiful website, and incredible beading ?>work. Your lovely bags >take my breath away. I am very uninformed in this >area, would you please >explain the use of the bags with the "perfume bottle" >openings. They are >absolutely gorgeous to look upon, but I'm afraid I >don't understand how to >use one, or is the top an illusion. I believe one was >titled, "Winter >Water". >Congratulations on an incredibly well done site. >Susy Thank you so much for your kind comments. "Winter Water" is mounted on an antique "gateleg" style frame. There is a round circular hinged top on the middle of the frame, which is opened up and than the frame expands into a larger circle so that items (and hands) can be inserted. Try this link : http://www.lacis.com/catalog/data/ls58.html to see one partially opened. Thank you again, Kelly Dorman www.backwardglances.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:32:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEWhRM003661 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:32:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEW1YF025104 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:32:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEVu7E096077; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:31:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEVq7E096024 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:31:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6TEVn8o026816 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:31:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another interesting find Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:33:37 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <01f601c47576$9b7d7e20$cb6afea9@sherry> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I believe the one being helped with the hose is a man, probably St. Nicholas. Talia > This one has a lady wrapping a 'turban', and another is being helped with > her stockings/hose. > > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/gentile/quarate1.jpg > Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:35:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEZ2RM003684 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:35:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEY8YF025352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:34:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEY77E097666; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:34:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepb.post.tele.dk (pfepb.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.236]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEXx7E097497 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:34:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f3a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.58]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8966D5EE02A for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:33:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <007501c47579$13df7240$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:33:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] hard to find fabrics X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I chose a fine belgian handkerchief linnen for my 18th century shirt. It was expensive, but worth the whole thing. I also am very sorry that i cant find any Moiré Antique in silk, it is my greatest wish to get some. But i think i will buy some of the substitute when i go to Rome in 2 weeks. Last time i looked at some real nice shades at Gautruco in Via del Corso. For embroidery it is the most beautifull background to have. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:37:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEbbRM003705 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:37:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEauYF025605 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:36:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEau7E099692; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:36:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts6.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.164]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEas7E099600 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:36:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.4.131]) by simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040729143639.PVXO10364.simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:36:39 -0400 Message-ID: <020601c47579$2546b520$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <01ea01c47570$06f31f40$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fuel for the debate on ruffles Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:34:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Still looking for pregnant ladies, I stumble accross this: > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/s/simone/4altars/5agostin/6agostin.jpg > SIMONE MARTINI, Blessed Agostino Novello Altarpiece (detail) > 1324 > > Now if the resolution on your computer is good enough you should be able to > see that the lady carrying the baby has what looks to be a large tuck in the > fabric of her dress just above the hem. I also noticed that in pictures just > prior to this period the ladies seem to have had an extra swath of fabric > around their waist, the dress looks as if it has been pulled up and belted, > leaving a drape. > > Perhaps this was the way of dealing with a change in fashion? rather than > cut all of that fabric off, tuck it up and sew it at the hem. > > Just a thought, back to work! Just found another one: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1402-450/tresbell/07n_1400.jp g Two of the ladies have the tuck/ruffle, this one is from Les Trčs Belles Heures du Duc de Berry, dated 1420 or so. Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:38:52 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEcqRM003718 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:38:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEcGYF025773 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:38:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEcE7E000736; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:38:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts6.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.164]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEc77E000672 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:38:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.4.131]) by simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040729143757.PWEU10364.simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:37:57 -0400 Message-ID: <021001c47579$54062d00$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Another interesting find Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:35:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I thought he was the one throwing the gold in the window? Sheridan > I believe the one being helped with the hose is a man, probably St. > Nicholas. > > Talia > > > This one has a lady wrapping a 'turban', and another is being helped with > > her stockings/hose. > > > > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/gentile/quarate1.jpg > > > Sheridan > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:42:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEgmRM003750 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:42:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEetYF026060 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:40:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEes7E002714; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:40:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEel7E002612 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:40:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m4.in-tch.com [216.166.191.4]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6TEeUY16701 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:40:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <41090D59.6000700@in-tch.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:44:41 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't think they had those at Uprising. Bummer. They're certainly some of the better merchants I've ever seen in Artemisia for a *long* time. (uh, ooops on the SCA reference--"Uprising" is my region's largest single annual event, held every June in Idaho Falls, ID). I should mention that they're also selling some nice fibers for spinning--I bought a couple of bumps of a wool/silk blend for a present for a friend. AND they're selling wool embroidery yarn dyed with an amazing range of natural dyes. It's a very, very good thing that they're normally located a couple of states away from me! ;o) --sue Wanda Pease wrote: > Pastiche is an EVIL PLACE! Go not in to that dark land of temptation lest > ye never return as the same man or woman to your friends! Silk, wool, > linen, BOOKS! Oh, the horror of it! > > Regina Romsey > (plus they give you a neat little card that you tot up your purchases on and > when you reach a certain amount gives you money off your next purchase > (grin) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:43:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEhmRM003754 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:43:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEhDYF026194 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:43:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEhC7E004373; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:43:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEh47E004293 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:43:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA14698 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:43:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Fuel for the debate on ruffles Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:43:03 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <020601c47579$2546b520$cb6afea9@sherry> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It could also be useful for just plain getting around because when you're carrying a small child, you don't want to risk tripping over long skirts(I know since I was a great fan of maxiskirts in the late '60's and early '70's--wore a maxi straight from school to a babysitting job. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:49:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEnJRM003770 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:49:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TElLYF026606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:47:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TElL7E007503; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:47:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from softwareinnovation.com (w002.z064000176.dfw-tx.dsl.cnc.net [64.0.176.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TElI7E007427 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:47:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from betsy@softwareinnovation.com) Received: from theforce ([64.0.176.13]) by softwareinnovation.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:46:53 -0500 From: "Betsy Marshall" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another interesting find Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:47:21 -0500 Message-ID: <007c01c4757a$f4317b80$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2004 14:46:53.0820 (UTC) FILETIME=[E39A0BC0:01C4757A] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think the man being helped is the poor father of the three girls, St. Nicholas is the man throwing gold balls in the window (for their dowries). ( Betsy -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of khanson Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 9:34 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another interesting find I believe the one being helped with the hose is a man, probably St. Nicholas. Talia > This one has a lady wrapping a 'turban', and another is being helped with > her stockings/hose. > > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/gentile/quarate1.jpg > Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:54:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEskRM003793 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:54:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TErrYF027115 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:53:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TErp7E012385; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:53:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TErj7E012333 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:53:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from khanson@kc.rr.com) Received: from karen (CPE-65-26-141-89.kc.rr.com [65.26.141.89]) by ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i6TErf8o009501 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:53:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "khanson" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another interesting find Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:55:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-reply-to: <021001c47579$54062d00$cb6afea9@sherry> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Could be, since I don't know saints from sinners...but the one having hose removed really looks like a man to me. :) Talia > I thought he was the one throwing the gold in the window? > > Sheridan > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 10:57:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TEvwRM003810 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:57:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEuoYF027415 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:56:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEum7E014617; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:56:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav154.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TEui7E014503 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:56:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:56:39 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav154.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:56:38 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: <01ea01c47570$06f31f40$cb6afea9@sherry> <020601c47579$2546b520$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fuel for the debate on ruffles Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:56:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:56:42 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2004 14:56:39.0002 (UTC) FILETIME=[4065BBA0:01C4757C] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6TEvwRM003810 Status: RO "Just found another one: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1402-450/tresbell/07n_1400jp g Two of the ladies have the tuck/ruffle, this one is from Les Trčs Belles Heures du Duc de Berry, dated 1420 or so." Thanks, this is the clearest depiction of it as a tuck I have seen. By the way, the man being helped with his stockings is the girls' father. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 11:19:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TFJYRM004019 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:19:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFIiYF029562 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:18:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFIe7E031934; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:18:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6TFIY7E031821 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:18:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OlX8A5A38CjR1A/Qxh87JZc= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J3QEQ63F; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:18:17 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 07:40:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. Message-ID: <20040729.081804.260.0.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,6-16 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO They also sell beautiful flat silk. The proprietors are extremely knowledgable and will happily let you pick their brains. :) Arlys On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:13:28 -0700 "Wanda Pease" writes: > Pastiche is an EVIL PLACE! Go not in to that dark land of temptation > lest ye never return as the same man or woman to your friends! Silk, > wool, linen, BOOKS! Oh, the horror of it! > > Regina Romsey > (plus they give you a neat little card that you tot up your > purchases on and > when you reach a certain amount gives you money off your next > purchase > (grin) ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 11:31:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TFVZRM004088 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:31:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFUkYF000807 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:30:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFUf7E041543; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:30:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6TFUZ7E041477 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:30:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 3727 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2004 15:31:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 2004 15:31:14 -0000 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com); by webmail.inreach.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1042.24.4.69.40.1091115033.squirrel@24.4.69.40> In-Reply-To: <000201c4752b$97097740$6a01a8c0@SG01> References: <200407290034.51705.cathy@thyrsus.com> <000201c4752b$97097740$6a01a8c0@SG01> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Last message about Costume College X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello there! Last night I printed out some red "H" stickers for those of us going to Costume College this weekend. I will be getting to the hotel late today (thursday) but will try to have them at the check-in desk as soon as I get there. If check in before I get there, try back on friday to get your sticker. See you there! Diana Habra www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 11:46:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TFkvRM004182 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:46:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFkLYF002213 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:46:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFkG7E054306; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:46:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFkB7E054242 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:46:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6TFk9vf003293 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:46:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040729114440.0149adf0@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:46:17 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: RE: [h-cost] Another interesting find In-Reply-To: References: <01f601c47576$9b7d7e20$cb6afea9@sherry> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi folks... the story is of St. Nicholas providing the dowry for 3 poor maidens. St. Nick is the one at the window throwing in the golden orbs, while the family goes about getting ready for bed. One of the daughters is helping her father in removing his hose. Bridgette ; > >I believe the one being helped with the hose is a man, probably St. >Nicholas. > >Talia > > > This one has a lady wrapping a 'turban', and another is being helped with > > her stockings/hose. > > > > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/gentile/quarate1.jpg > > > Sheridan Mari Stewart College of Veterinary Medicine Cornell University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 11:57:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TFvPRM004266 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:57:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFsFYF002952 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:54:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFsA7E060706; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:54:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TFs77E060634 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:54:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6TGRA5c054064 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:27:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6TGRAkE054063 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:27:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407291627.i6TGRAkE054063@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: RE: [h-cost] Interesting finds In-Reply-To: <000801c4751c$7d525ba0$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Without checking my sources I think the side saddle was introduced by one of > the Medici's of Elizabeth's time. But you do see the side chairs before > then. What can't figure out is how those ladies rode pillion. split skirts? (I know *nothing* about horses, so I"m assuming "pillion" in the "normal fashion" rather than side-saddle. JErusha/ Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 12:08:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TG8VRM004390 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:08:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TG6YYF004376 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:06:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TG6V7E070941; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:06:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TG6Q7E070882 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:06:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6TGdc5c054195 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:39:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6TGdcvh054194 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:39:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407291639.i6TGdcvh054194@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting finds In-Reply-To: <41087624.1090907@in-tch.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > Dang, that is a nifty one! I like it, too. > It reminds me a a proto-ropa--the red being her gown, and the white > being some sort of open-front overgown or robe. > The hairstyles are interesting, too, as is the "perugia towel" being > handed to the lady in red/white. I think it's one of the first times > I've personally seen that sort of decoration on a linen that *wasn't* a > tablecloth! Oooh -- I'd been so centered on the garb details (and there wasn't any needlework on the clothes), that I completely missed the towels! thanks. Now about that red dress -- I"ve never seen a good Close Up image in a book that I could get my hands on -- Are the gold "do-dads" on her dress embroidery -- or are they little pieces of stamped/beaten gold like the feather "charms" that you can get from bead stores. Is it two separate gowns or just "parti-colored ..... I have so many questions about that dress ..... Jerusha/ susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 12:21:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TGL9RM004440 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:21:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TGJHYF005527 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:19:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TGJDfT081522; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:19:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TGJ7fU081462 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:19:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6TGGRtY028912 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:16:28 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4109237A.4020501@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:19:06 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting finds References: <200407291627.i6TGRAkE054063@sabre.goldsword.com> In-Reply-To: <200407291627.i6TGRAkE054063@sabre.goldsword.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Susan Farmer wrote: >>Without checking my sources I think the side saddle was introduced by one of >>the Medici's of Elizabeth's time. But you do see the side chairs before >>then. What can't figure out is how those ladies rode pillion. > > > split skirts? > > (I know *nothing* about horses, so I"m assuming "pillion" in the "normal > fashion" rather than side-saddle. "Pillion" is riding behind the person who is actually directing the horse. Or motorcycle. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 12:34:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TGYwRM004564 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:34:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TGX5YF006819 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:33:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TGX3fT093045; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:33:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TGWsfT092928 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:32:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6TH635c054570 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:06:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6TH63HA054569 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:06:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407291706.i6TH63HA054569@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy In-Reply-To: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > Definitley anything pre-1600 would be fantastic. > > http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownLady25.jpg > > This is illustration 136 in Visual History of Costume and it says > Unknown lady, c.1595 > W. Segar (attr.) Yep -- and that's the other one. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 13:17:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6THH8RM004979 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:17:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THGEYF011432 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:16:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THGBfT029561; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:16:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts5.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.163]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THG6fT029519 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:16:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.70.4.131]) by simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040729171500.ZDAI3387.simmts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:15:00 -0400 Message-ID: <026201c4758f$63e14fa0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:13:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Hat Picture X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here's one for Cynthia to add to her collection: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/lippi/filippo/1450/5portrai.jpg There are some very nice details in this painting... Sheridan ****************************************************** On nights such as this, witches are abroad. Well, not actually abroad. They don't like the food and you can't trust the water and the shamans always hog the deckchairs. Terry Pratchett _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 13:48:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6THmhRM005225 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:48:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THlvYF014838 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:47:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THlsfT057059; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:47:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from swmail.southwest.tn.edu (swmail.southwest.tn.edu [198.146.128.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THllfT056878 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:47:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kgloster@southwest.tn.edu) content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Hat Picture X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:47:32 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Hat Picture Thread-Index: AcR1j+Ol2jckjEHQQoGOyiOJ4mYSPwAA946w From: "Gloster, Kendall" To: "Historical Costume" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6THllfT056878 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, yes!! This is a fantasic hat. It's in a book I have called Beauty & Virtue and everytime I see it I tell myself "One Day". :-) And of course I must make an outfit to go with it. *grin* Luca -----Original Message----- From: Shane & Sheridan [mailto:shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 12:13 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Hat Picture Here's one for Cynthia to add to her collection: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/lippi/filippo/1450/5portrai.jpg There are some very nice details in this painting... Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 13:50:51 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6THooRM005256 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:50:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THoDYF015260 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:50:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THoCfT058890; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:50:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THo8fT058798 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:50:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.4.) id 6.1e5.26540cff (25098) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:43:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: <1e5.26540cff.2e3a914b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:43:39 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Just a minor rant. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If I ever, ever, EVER even contemplate purchasing charmeuse to sew with again, EVER, for any reason, would someone PLEASE thump me upside the head??? Normal satin is bad enough, but charmeuse actually somehow takes on a life of its own and wanders in every direction, generally at the worst moment humanly possible. Give me a nice velvet or broadcloth any day. -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 13:59:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6THxxRM005284 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:59:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THxBYF016055 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:59:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THx6fT066225; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:59:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.pacifier.net (smtp2.pacifier.net [64.255.237.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6THwxfT066086 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:59:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kat@grendal.rain.com) Received: from KATHOUSE (ip121.133.du.eli.iinet.com [67.136.133.121]) by smtp2.pacifier.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA5782D2B for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:58:54 -0700 (PDT) From: kat@grendal.rain.com To: Historical Costume Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:58:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. Message-ID: <4108D863.187.FC5AC1A@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: <20040728.224052.592.3.Cley@juno.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.12a) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Pastiche is an EVIL PLACE! Go not in to that dark land of temptation > lest ye never return as the same man or woman to your friends! Silk, > wool, linen, BOOKS! Oh, the horror of it! > > Regina Romsey > (plus they give you a neat little card that you tot up your purchases > on and when you reach a certain amount gives you money off your next > purchase (grin) I wasn't fast enough getting off site Saturday. I ended up buying a first edition copy of Nevinson's Catalogue of English Domestic Embroidery with handwritten notes by Nevinson for the second edition (as well as a postcard from Naomi Tarrant tucked into it.) Groan. They really are evil and they know what to put on the shelves to tempt you into "indiscretions." I frequently have to say "Get thee behind me, Satan!" as I walk by their booth. Kat _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 15:02:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TJ2LRM005701 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:02:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJ0OYF021678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:00:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJ0DfT015727; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:00:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJ08fT015624 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:00:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0x3ef32f3a.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [62.243.47.58]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2006C47FE63 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:00:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <005f01c4759e$4a63e600$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1e5.26540cff.2e3a914b@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Just a minor rant. Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:00:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I know what you are going trough with this. I use such a silk satin for the puffed sleave of my courtdress. But i have cheated a little, because i back it with organza, and this makes it much easyer to work with Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 7:43 PM Subject: [h-cost] Just a minor rant. > If I ever, ever, EVER even contemplate purchasing charmeuse to sew with > again, EVER, for any reason, would someone PLEASE thump me upside the head??? > > Normal satin is bad enough, but charmeuse actually somehow takes on a life of > its own and wanders in every direction, generally at the worst moment humanly > possible. > > Give me a nice velvet or broadcloth any day. > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 15:22:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TJMcRM005985 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:22:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJM1YF023601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:22:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJLvfT033750; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:21:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJLofT033682 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:21:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04DE62A489 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:21:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t3p042.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.220.44]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E2442D4A5 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:21:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <01ea01c47570$06f31f40$cb6afea9@sherry> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Fuel for the debate on ruffles X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From what it looks like, the hem of the overdress is shorter then the under dress. If you look at both sleeves, the under and over are pretty much the same color. The woman behind her is wearing same color over and under gowns. http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/angelico/p-angeli12.htm This picture shows an over gown that is shorter then the under gown. This is not saying that pleating to shorten a gown was not done, I just don't think that the Agostino picture proves this. De -----Original Message----- Still looking for pregnant ladies, I stumble across this: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/s/simone/4altars/5agostin/6agostin.jpg SIMONE MARTINI, Blessed Agostino Novello Altarpiece (detail) 1324 Now if the resolution on your computer is good enough you should be able to see that the lady carrying the baby has what looks to be a large tuck in the fabric of her dress just above the hem. I also noticed that in pictures just prior to this period the ladies seem to have had an extra swath of fabric around their waist, the dress looks as if it has been pulled up and belted, leaving a drape. Perhaps this was the way of dealing with a change in fashion? rather than cut all of that fabric off, tuck it up and sew it at the hem. Just a thought, back to work! Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 15:43:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TJhwRM006084 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:43:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJg4YF025464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:42:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJfxfT049942; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:42:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJfvfT049910 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:41:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2ACE29CDA for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:41:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t3p042.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.220.44]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A300D42B for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:41:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:41:55 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <1e5.26540cff.2e3a914b@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Satins and sheers X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO When sewing ribbon, satin, and sheer material I use Prym's basting tape for quilters that washes out. Also, something I have been told by an old seamstress, use masking tape between the layers to give a rough surface to work with (I have my doubts about using this method with sheer material as I would think that removing the tape might fray the edge more). Also, brown paper or onion paper. The latter works better with velvets then satins and sheer, I think but others tell me its great with satin. Extra tip with brown paper bags. To make a sharper crease, place one layer of the paper under the crease and one on top of the crease, then iron. De -----Original Message----- If I ever, ever, EVER even contemplate purchasing charmeuse to sew with again, EVER, for any reason, would someone PLEASE thump me upside the head??? Normal satin is bad enough, but charmeuse actually somehow takes on a life of its own and wanders in every direction, generally at the worst moment humanly possible. Give me a nice velvet or broadcloth any day. -Tiffany _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 16:05:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TK5ERM006233 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:05:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJxYYF027207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:59:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJxUfT064296; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:59:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail2.mdx.safepages.com (mail2.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TJxRfT064227 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:59:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail2.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 763781D1220; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:59:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust121.tnt3.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.197.121]) by mail2.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1490A1D1193 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:59:22 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <01fd01c475a6$cbdbff30$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1e5.26540cff.2e3a914b@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Just a minor rant. Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:01:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: > If I ever, ever, EVER even contemplate purchasing charmeuse to sew with > again, EVER, for any reason, would someone PLEASE thump me upside the head??? Preach it. I once ordered 50 yds of the stuff, and tore my hair out trying to get rid of it. I don't think I ever managed to sew a single garment out of it. Yuck. It actually put me off silk for years. Of course, I'm back now! =} -E _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 16:09:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TK9iRM006244 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:09:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TK9EYF028276 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:09:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TK9AfT072537; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:09:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from carp.serverhost.net (carp.serverhost.net [216.71.32.15]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TK98fT072437 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:09:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from althea@alfalfapress.com) Received: from alfalfapress.com (c-24-21-155-69.client.comcast.net [24.21.155.69]) by carp.serverhost.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6TK91324957 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:09:01 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:13:55 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: Althea Turner To: Costume Historical Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] reference to split stitch X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings all, I am trying to track down the history of the embroidery stitch as it moved across europe. Does anyone know of references that might help? Thanks!!! Althea Turner *** althea@alfalfapress.com *** http://www.alfalfapress.com Public Relations Manager Sauron/Voldemort 2004 Bush/Cheney - Bringing Bigotry back to the Constitution. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 16:37:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TKbORM006387 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:37:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TKagYF001832 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:36:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TKabfT097364; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:36:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mailrelay.k12.hi.us (mailrelay.k12.hi.us [165.248.247.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TKaXfT097301 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:36:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lisleong@k12.hi.us) Received: from WS-001 (webshield1.k12.hi.us [165.248.247.153]) by mailrelay.k12.hi.us (Postfix) with SMTP id 46D3E3EF3 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:36:31 -1000 (HST) Received: From makani ([165.248.1.195]) by WS-001 (WebShield SMTP v4.5 MR1a); id 1091133217328; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:33:37 -1000 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:33:50 -1000 (HST) From: annora X-X-Sender: lisleong@makani To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] reference to split stitch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I am trying to track down the history of the embroidery stitch as it moved > across europe. Does anyone know of references that might help? Pictorial History of Embroidery by Schuette and Muller-Christiansen may help. It has photos and descriptions of embroideries including country of origin, approximate date, and stitches used. --annora _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 16:38:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TKcYRM006403 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:38:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TKbcYF001990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:37:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TKbcfT098114; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:37:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.85]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TKbafT098090 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:37:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jaurbik@optonline.net) Received: from optonline.net (ool-18bde58e.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.229.142]) by mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0I1M00AU2RXOF0@mta10.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:37:15 -0400 From: "J.A.Urbik" In-reply-to: <1e5.26540cff.2e3a914b@aol.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <41095FFB.9090800@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) References: <1e5.26540cff.2e3a914b@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] charmeuse was (Just a minor rant.) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Funny, I have never had much trouble with silk charmeuse. I wash it, then spay HEAVELY with spray starg --sometimes twice or three times! it is then quite easy to deal with, though marking it up for making bias tape is still not quite fun. Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: > If I ever, ever, EVER even contemplate purchasing charmeuse to sew with > again, EVER, for any reason, would someone PLEASE thump me upside the head??? > > Normal satin is bad enough, but charmeuse actually somehow takes on a life of > its own and wanders in every direction, generally at the worst moment humanly > possible. > > Give me a nice velvet or broadcloth any day. > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 17:18:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TLIARM006634 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:18:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TLHBYF006103 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:17:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TLH6fT031105; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:17:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay11-dav22.bay11.hotmail.com [64.4.39.52]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TLH5fT031016 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:17:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:16:58 -0700 Received: from 4.10.36.229 by bay11-dav22.bay11.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:16:57 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [4.10.36.229] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fuel for the debate on ruffles Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:17:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:17:00 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2004 21:16:58.0021 (UTC) FILETIME=[6197B550:01C475B1] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6TLIARM006634 Status: RO >From what it looks like, the hem of the overdress is shorter then the under dress. If you look at both sleeves, the under and over are pretty much the same color. Yes, the over and underdress are the same color but there is a tuck or ruffle line on the over-dress as well. Whether you can see this may depend on your monitor. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 17:41:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TLf6RM006745 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:41:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TLcmYF008293 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:38:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TLchfT048909; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:38:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TLcgfT048881 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:38:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BqIbn-0001jE-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:38:39 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:38:40 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c475b4$6a73bef0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6TLcgfT048881 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Onion Paper and Pryms: Was Satins and sheers X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >When sewing ribbon, satin, and sheer material I use Prym's basting tape for >quilters that washes out. >Also, brown paper or onion paper. The >latter works better with velvets then satins and sheer, I think but others >tell me its great with satin. [Sg] What is onion paper? Is Prym's a European product? I don't find it online anywhere. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 18:26:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TMQ3RM006975 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:26:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMPHYF014081 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:25:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMP9fT085732; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:25:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMP3fT085680 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:25:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040729222503.VPHU3910.out005.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:25:03 -0500 Message-ID: <00fd01c475ba$e9051dd0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040729032819.33245.qmail@web51107.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:25:09 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:25:03 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My understanding is that women were cattle, mostly women were treated well, but no laws or obligations against abuse. I also recall that in Roman times a girl was her fathers property until such time as she was married, then possession (along with rights to dispose of her) transferred to the husband. Did this not transfer over into medieval society as well? Curious, B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heather Rose Jones" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 9:49 PM Subject: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy > Restoring some original context and clarifying the attributions ... > > Cheri wrote: > > >A married woman would be pregnant most of her life. > > Then Marc asked: > > >Mmm, interesting supposition, is there evidence to support it as a > >universal? > > > To which Cheri responded: > > > >1) No birth control > > > >2) Women were their husbands property > > > >We aren't just talking royalty here but all the rest of the > >population, you know, the poor people. Why would you think it > >otherwise? > > Even ordinary poor people leave traces of their lives in the historic > record, and those traces leave some solid evidence for thinking > otherwise. Leaving aside the issue that legal conditions varied > widely across cultures and time-periods, the notion of women being > "their husbands property" in the pre-modern period has much more > basis in modern mythology than in history. > > Heather > -- > **** > Heather Rose Jones > heather.jones@earthlink.net > **** > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 18:41:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TMfBRM007057 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:41:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMebYF016106 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:40:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMeZfT097811; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:40:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMdnfT097066 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:39:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BqJYx-0004R7-00 for h-costume@mail.indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:39:48 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:39:49 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c475bc$f5078a30$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Transition gown site? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://www.saragrace.net/images/ItaloFlemoThing/8panelwithgodetsbackex2seam. gif Hi all, I am looking for the site from which this image came. I remember looking stuff up on paneled dresses at the time, but was very sloppy about where I got it from. I must have done a whole lot of downloading that day and I am pretty sure I did it during our discussions on the transition gowns. I can't find any of the image names online, and I am sure I did not change the names. I have search the archives to no avail. Thanks Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 18:46:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TMkIRM007070 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:46:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMiVYF016736 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:44:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMiUfT000950; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:44:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMiRfT000909 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:44:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kerowyn@mindspring.com) Received: from dialup-4.245.16.145.dial1.stlouis1.level3.net ([4.245.16.145] helo=Dan) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BqJdS-00021D-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:44:27 -0400 Message-ID: <01af01c475be$5c40c080$9110f504@Dan> From: "Genie" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4.1.20040728031632.01903240@mail.frys.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:49:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, they ar for both kinds. I yook a look at the bck of the envelope at Hancock's last night. They also have three sizes in each envelope 5-7-9 I think. Genie Snow fallen on snow, and this evening, the full moon of November Basho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 5:17 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Gloves > >The new Vogue catalogue has a very nice glove pattern available #7949. > > Only for stretch fabrics, not for leather, sigh. > > CarolynKayta Barrows > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > www.FunStuft.com > > //// \\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ))) > ((( <> )))) > ) (((((( > /----\ /---\)) > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 18:46:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TMkLRM007073 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:46:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMjfYF016897 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:45:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMjefT001806; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:45:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMjHfT001512 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:45:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040729224504.BSS22385.out006.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:45:04 -0500 Message-ID: <019901c475bd$b5482750$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1e5.26540cff.2e3a914b@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Just a minor rant. Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:45:11 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:45:04 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I recall a suggestion to use tailors tape for such problems, to reinforce the seams and keep the fabric in place. I'm going to try it with the sateen, last time I used it I recall it being a bit difficult, but turned out OK. b ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:43 AM Subject: [h-cost] Just a minor rant. > If I ever, ever, EVER even contemplate purchasing charmeuse to sew with > again, EVER, for any reason, would someone PLEASE thump me upside the head??? > > Normal satin is bad enough, but charmeuse actually somehow takes on a life of > its own and wanders in every direction, generally at the worst moment humanly > possible. > > Give me a nice velvet or broadcloth any day. > > -Tiffany > Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. > ******************************* > Reflections*of*Worth > http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 18:48:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6TMmPRM007081 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:48:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMlsYF017272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:47:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMlrfT003491; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:47:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6TMljfU003403 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:47:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6TMj5tY031616 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:45:05 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <41097E90.8040305@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:47:44 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Transition gown site? References: <000001c475bc$f5078a30$6a01a8c0@SG01> In-Reply-To: <000001c475bc$f5078a30$6a01a8c0@SG01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Saragrace T. Knauf wrote: > http://www.saragrace.net/images/ItaloFlemoThing/8panelwithgodetsbackex2seam. > gif > Hi all, I am looking for the site from which this image came. I remember > looking stuff up on paneled dresses at the time, but was very sloppy about > where I got it from. Hey, that's keen! (Although I think there's a waist seam there, too, but probably that was discussed whenever the original discussion happened.) It's pinging something in my brain which says it's a birth-of-Christ scene, but I couldn't give you specifics. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent We're on the way to Wiggle Bay And our brains, are draining out our ears. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 20:29:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U0TNRM007708 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:29:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0SXYF026364 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:28:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0SSfT068983; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:28:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0SMfT068867 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:28:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N000BZ2N5E0@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N0018V2N54M@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:28:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:28:17 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ooops, a little late on the reply, been doing some major remodeling and fell behind on my digests (and my costuming--poooh) I did read it, in fact I just "discovered" it this year--we've been moving for the last year and a half, so I have been a little out of touch. Not a bad effort considering the huge gap in time. A few years ago I might have bristled at some of the things she did, but as I get older I find myself getting more forgiving. How did you like it? Bettina Message: 9 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:37:21 -0700 From: "Margo Glenn-Lewis" Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece)OT To: "Historical Costume" Message-ID: <056b01c47044$d62a4d00$6b39a8c0@OpalSun> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Have you read Thrones, Dominions - the last of the novels left unfinished by Miss Sayers completed by Jill Paton Walsh? Obligatory costume content - Harriet is much concerned with matters of dress in this book (well, more than usual) and in fact one of the important clues in the mystery portion is a collar the murdered woman is wearing. Margo Glenn-Lewis "Don't forget your bucket" Ice Machine in the Desert - Brave Combo ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:07 PM Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) > Oh, you read Wimsey. How wonderful!!! I don't think I have met a > person who has even heard of him, let alone read him, for going onto 20 years. > > And yes, that scene totally applies here. I think Bjarne would always know and it would always bother him. > > Bettina _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 20:55:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U0teRM007847 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:55:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0t0YF028373 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:55:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0svfT084451; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:54:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0stfT084394 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:54:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004073000544801500dkvqee>; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:54:48 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:53:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <025601c47539$2f567f40$eaf4fea9@glendaii> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It does not help for today, I know, but my goal over the next ten years is to weave and otherwise source various historic fabrics for costumers and re-enactors. I'm researching sources now on proper 18th century Indian block prints and am gearing up to make linsey-woolsey, also for the 18th C folks, and should be weaving it next winter. I'd love to see people's wish-lists -- I gather wool diamond twill is on them, along with reeled-silk. What else? The problem generally is that the things I can find are "too expensive" for re-enactor tastes. I sympathize with this -- materials costs are daunting, and hand-labor even more so, for the things I can't do myself (these latter just take forever instead!) As a nascent textile historian, I can't help but be reminded that there were REASONS why ordinary people before the 19th century had very few outfits at a time. But send me your wish-lists, on-list or off (losthawk@comcast.net) so I can build them into my megalomaniacal textile-empire daydreams! ;-) Lauren > >>> Speaking of tough-to-find fabric, has anyone on this list *ever* seen >> diamond >>> twill weave fabric for sale? I'm interested in wool, since that was an >>> important fabric in the Viking period, but at this point I'd take an >>> appropriate weave in almost *any* natural fiber. I _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 20:58:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U0wFRM007861 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:58:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0vgYF028546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:57:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0vgfT085913; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:57:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail8.mdx.safepages.com (mail8.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.23]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0vdfT085878 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:57:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail8.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 01E2018248E; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:57:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust240.tnt1.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.148.240]) by mail8.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 99E8D182413 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:57:34 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <021801c475d0$756be870$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c475bc$f5078a30$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Transition gown site? Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:59:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm the one who posted the image, on either this or another mailing list (and added the dotted lines that indicate the seams). It's the left panel of the St. John Altarpiece, by Van der Weyden: http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/w/weyden/rogier/12stjohn/1john.html There's a detail shot of the woman in question somewhere in the Web Gallery (or I suppose on another website), but for some aggravating reason I cannot find it. The detail shot, to my eye, shows a wrinkle at the waist, but no seam. Here's a cropped version of the detail shot: http://www.formfunction.org/temp2/1453-5cropped.jpg -E _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 20:59:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U0xNRM007870 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:59:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0vVYF028519 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:57:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0vUfT085823; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:57:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U0vQfT085727 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:57:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N000F93ZJCX@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N0023W3ZJ4F@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:57:19 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:57:19 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have all the Ian Carmichael ones and am working on getting the Edward Petherbridge ones. My DH has become a convert and can now be relied upon to supply me with more DVDs Bettina Message: 10 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:10:47 -0500 From: seamstrix@juno.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-ID: <20040722.181048.-185196793.2.Seamstrix@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm a huge Wimsey fan! Have been since back in the 70's when Ian Carmicheal did his fabulous take on Lord Peter. I have all the books, all the Edward Petherbridge movies, and I'm working on the Carmicheals. as my whimsy takes me..... Karen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 21:09:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U190RM007897 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:09:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U177YF029250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:07:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U174fT091604; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:07:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U16vfT091482 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:06:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N00MWT4FGUO@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N0029D4FG4F@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:06:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:06:52 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I remember reading that they did Busman's Holiday as a play, but don't know about the series. The Ian Carmichael one doesn't have it. I'm not sure about the others, as I said, i haven't read them. I did discover through some imdb research on "Sense and Sensibility" that the actress that plays Fanny Dashwood also plays Harriet Vane in the EP series. I'm not sure I can picture that, in fact I can not even make that work, but who knows...I am keeping an open mind. The IC series had two Bunters, one who didn't work well at all, in my opinion, and one who worked really well, I thought. OCC--Peter's clothes--oh my Bettina Message: 3 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:21:24 -0700 From: "Wanda Pease" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) To: "Historical Costume" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Now you have "met" two others. I loved the PBS/BBC creations. I wish they could morph the actors into looking the way Peter is described, but the acting overcame that. Did they ever do one of Busman's Honeymoon? I saw the movie years ago with Robert Montgomery as Peter. I was happy with it until I read the book. Then I wanted the "real thing". When I was in Oxford I had to go and see Balliol and Magdalene Colleges as well as the bridge. Regina _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 21:18:47 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U1IlRM007959 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:18:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1I5YF029955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:18:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1I4fT097889; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:18:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1HwfT097796 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:17:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N000PM4XSE0@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N002MF4XS4F@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:17:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:17:52 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I got so excited when my DH got introduced to Lord Peter via the Ian Carmichael movies--and liked them/him. It's important to have your DH understand about your first love....especially if it's still ongoing. I have to admit, costuming passion not withstanding, I have always had problems visualizing the gloth of gold gown, probably due to having read the books in the German translation first for many years (very well translated, though, I have to say) I love the scene in "Murder Must Advertise", when two of the ladies in the office see him at night, in town, in all his lordly splendor (as Lord Peter, not Death Bredon) Or Bunter's clothing advice in the beginning of "Whose Body" Yum! Bettina Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:13:26 -0400 From: ruthanne baumgartner Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) To: Historical Costume Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Read him! For years he spoiled me for any real social life--no guy seemed to come close to Lord Peter. Great to hear from somebody else who knows the books. I do know a few other Wimsey aficionados. What wonderful books, eh? And how about that cloth-of-gold dress Harriet has made for her wedding? Ruth Anne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 21:24:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U1OYRM008001 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:24:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1MYYF000392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:22:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1MXfT000613; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:22:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1MVfT000548 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:22:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N00M8B55CY1@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N002MX55C4F@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:22:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:22:24 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO who was it? Bettina Message: 8 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:16:11 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I like Wimsey too (and Margery Allingham's Albert Campion). Personally, I preferred Edward Petherbridge's version of him to Ian Carmichael's. Anyone read Dorothy Sayers' collected letters? She once met a man who she said was exactly her idea of what Peter Wimsey looked like. We now know from the letters that she had in fact seen him years before, but had not consciously remembered doing so. Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 21:29:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U1T8RM008032 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:29:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1RLYF000874 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:27:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1RHfT003562; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:27:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a34-mta01.direcway.com (a34-mta01.direcpc.com [66.82.4.90]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1R7fT003433 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:27:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bettina.anderson@direcway.com) Received: from a34-mss03 (a34-mss03 [172.27.10.15]) by a34-mta01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N000GZ5D2CX@a34-mta01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from direcway.com (mail01.direcway.com [172.27.10.16]) by mail01.direcway.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I1N002NL5D24F@mail01.direcway.com> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [66.82.4.92] by mail01.direcway.com (mshttpd); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:27:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:27:02 -0400 From: bettina.anderson@direcway.com To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.12 (built Feb 13 2003) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have to do that usually once a year (not all, and sometimes I just re-read favourite parts, but I have to have my fix) I love Peter Wimsey stories! Now you have made me want to pull out all the books and read them again. Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 21:49:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U1nDRM008127 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:49:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1k4YF002483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:46:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1k2fT014653; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:46:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U1jwfU014598 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:45:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.170]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i6U1pY9c026466 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:51:35 +1000 Message-ID: <03d801c475d6$8dc89340$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:43:01 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Merino has an ultra-long staple compared to other breeds of sheep for colder climates. Australian merino has been developed to exploit this staple further, so we end up with some of the longest stapled wool in the world. This means that the wool can be spun into a finer thread than other breeds, and it also ends up as a softer product. Thus wool made from merino is beautifully fine and baby soft, but is not used to produce a final product anything like the wools that they produced in Northern Europe in the middle ages. Glenda. ----- Original Message ----- > > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Glenda Robinson wrote: > > > Australian merino wool is not a decent approximation for english wool, > > and non-merino wool is very hard to find here. > > What are the differences? > > --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 22:17:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U2HDRM008302 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:17:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U2GPYF004252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:16:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U2GMfT032213; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:16:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com ([199.170.202.32]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U2GEfT032130 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:16:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3) with ESMTP id i6U2nT5c059446 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:49:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from sfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.12.6/8.12.3/Submit) id i6U2nTFi059445 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:49:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Farmer Message-Id: <200407300249.i6U2nTFi059445@sabre.goldsword.com> To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Transition gown site? In-Reply-To: <000001c475bc$f5078a30$6a01a8c0@SG01> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > http://www.saragrace.net/images/ItaloFlemoThing/8panelwithgodetsbackex2seam. > gif > It looks like a woman wringing her hands at the crucifixion -- or the taking down of the body. I just checked the 3 van der Weyden's that I have -- he was my first choice and it's not one of those -- check Flemish art -- that's what jingles in the back of my brain. Jerusha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 23:19:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U3JCRM008418 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:19:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3IOYF008903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:18:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3IAfT065908; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:18:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay8-f8.bay8.hotmail.com [64.4.27.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3I9fT065847 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:18:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from caithlinn@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:18:02 -0700 Received: from 130.102.116.207 by by8fd.bay8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:18:02 GMT X-Originating-IP: [130.102.116.207] X-Originating-Email: [caithlinn@hotmail.com] X-Sender: caithlinn@hotmail.com From: "C M" To: h-costume@net.indra.com Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:18:02 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2004 03:18:02.0980 (UTC) FILETIME=[D2EA1A40:01C475E3] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re:Transition gown site X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Was it this site: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th/index.html? The picture is from the St. John altarpiece by Rogier van der Weyden.... Hope this helps, Caithlinn _________________________________________________________________ Find love today with ninemsn personals. Click here: http://ninemsn.match.com?referrer=hotmailtagline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 23:22:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U3MgRM008421 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:22:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3MAYF009203 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:22:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3MAfT068027; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:22:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3M6fT068005 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:22:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6492A7E6 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:22:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p568.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.218.61]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B3A73D422 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:22:05 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:22:06 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <000401c475b4$6a73bef0$6a01a8c0@SG01> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: Onion Paper and Prym X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- [Sg] What is onion paper? Is Prym's a European product? I don't find it online anywhere. Prym-Dritz Corp. This site should get you to were you need. http://www.dritz.com/brands/showcase/index.php?BRAND_ID=16&SUBCAT_ID=101 They changed the name so it is referred to as Wash-a-way Wonder Tape. There is also wash away sheets. Onion paper is similar to the paper that is used for oversea letters which is tissue thin but a little firmer than tissue. De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 23:30:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U3UYRM008599 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:30:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3TnYF009997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:29:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3TlfT072107; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:29:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3TjfT072090 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:29:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BqO5Y-0005TD-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:29:45 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re:Transition gown site Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:29:46 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c475e5$76e0c8a0$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >Was it this site: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/15th/index.html? > >The picture is from the St. John altarpiece by Rogier van der Weyden.... [Sg] I believe this is it! Thanks to all! Sg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 23:46:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U3kORM009064 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:46:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3jnYF011695 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:45:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3jkfT081480; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:45:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3jhfU081451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:45:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6U3kNIE013817 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:46:23 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:52:10 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407281955.32448.cathy@thyrsus.com> <016601c47536$33742530$0200a8c0@susan> In-Reply-To: <016601c47536$33742530$0200a8c0@susan> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407292352.10655.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 29 July 2004 2:35 am, Susan wrote: > Yes, I saw some last month at a local Jo-anns, Diamond (not broken) twill > cotton flannel in the quilting section. Arrgh. What region is "local" to you? Our area Jo-Anne's almost never have anything that useful or interesting. :-( > the line was called Home > Essentials (I think). I didn't buy any cause it wasn't in a color I > usually wear. Hmmm. If it's part of a product line, they may sell it from their web site. I'll look. Thanks! -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jul 29 23:57:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U3vuRM009266 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:57:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3vOYF012804 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:57:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3vMfT087937; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:57:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U3vJfU087901 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:57:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6U3vx5B014177 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:57:59 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Diamond twill Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:03:46 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <20040729135952.88516.qmail@web13424.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040729135952.88516.qmail@web13424.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407300003.46324.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 29 July 2004 9:59 am, Mara Riley wrote: > Robin, > > I bought some diamond twill linen this spring from 96 Fabrics (I > think that's the business name) at the Ft. Frederick Market Fair. > It's LOVELY stuff... They were trying to find more; they sold a > bunch to Sally Queen for her textiles swatch book. I was the one asking about diamond twills, Mara. But thanks for the information. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 00:07:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U47gRM009302 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:07:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U475YF014082 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:07:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U472fT093449; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:07:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U46wfT093385 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:06:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gunstonian@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2inigbt.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.65.125] helo=oemcomputer) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BqOfX-0004HP-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:06:56 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20040730000901.006de77c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: gunstonian@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:09:01 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: "Laurie L. Kittle" Subject: Re: [h-cost] History and Pregnancy In-Reply-To: <200407291706.i6TH63HA054569@sabre.goldsword.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From the cover of a book titled "The Making of Man-Midwifery, Childbirth in England, 1660-1770, by Adrian Wilson. Harvard University Press, 1995. An engraving (London 1773) titled "A male midwife suggestively examines an attractive pregnant woman while her disgruntled husband is lead out of the room by a servant" from the Wellcome Institute Library, London. Laurie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 00:09:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U49VRM009308 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:09:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U48vYF014240 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:08:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U48ufT094485; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:08:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net (bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.119]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U48rfT094457 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:08:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20j0.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.96] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BqOhR-00051D-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:08:53 -0700 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20040729225203.021c8c88@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:58:15 -0500 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200407291801.i6TI0tfU067851@net.indra.com> References: <200407291801.i6TI0tfU067851@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Charmeuse X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO BT, DT - For my Costume Con Fashion Show outfit last year (Midnight Ascot - an Ascot dress done for a vampire in black w/red, grey, and cream accents) the bodice had -two- oval shoulder capes. One was black velvet (regular rayon type), the other grey silk/rayon velvet. Both were lined in silk charmeuse - it was the only fabric in the whole store that was just the "right" shade of blood-red. Nothing like trying to control velvet sewn to charmeuse when the whole thing is essentially on the --bias--!!!! Most of the bodice ended up being hand-sewn. Sandy >From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com >Subject: [h-cost] Just a minor rant. > >If I ever, ever, EVER even contemplate purchasing charmeuse to sew with >again, EVER, for any reason, would someone PLEASE thump me upside the head??? > >Normal satin is bad enough, but charmeuse actually somehow takes on a life of >its own and wanders in every direction, generally at the worst moment humanly >possible. > >Give me a nice velvet or broadcloth any day. > >-Tiffany "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 00:13:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U4D3RM009332 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:13:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4CUYF014567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:12:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4CTfT096492; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:12:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from x11.quik.com (x11.quik.com [209.213.140.111]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4CSfT096465 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:12:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyanne@quik.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by x11.quik.com (8.12.9-20030926/8.12.5) id i6U4CPQ7005010 for h-costume@indra.com.qbigmail; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:12:25 -0700 Received: from quik.com (x1.quik.com [216.176.27.101]) by x11.quik.com (8.12.9-20030926/8.12.5) with SMTP id i6U4COVh005006 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:12:24 -0700 Received: from 68.109.4.7 (QuikMail authenticated user ladyanne) by webmail.quik.com with HTTP; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1773.68.109.4.7.1091160744.squirrel@webmail.quik.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. From: To: In-Reply-To: <41090D59.6000700@in-tch.com> References: <41090D59.6000700@in-tch.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: QuikMail (version 1.2.10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Does anyone know if they plan to be at Pennsic this year? Anne > I don't think they had those at Uprising. Bummer. They're certainly > some of the better merchants I've ever seen in Artemisia for a *long* > time. (uh, ooops on the SCA reference--"Uprising" is my region's > largest single annual event, held every June in Idaho Falls, ID). > I should mention that they're also selling some nice fibers for > spinning--I bought a couple of bumps of a wool/silk blend for a present > for a friend. AND they're selling wool embroidery yarn dyed with an > amazing range of natural dyes. > It's a very, very good thing that they're normally located a couple of > states away from me! ;o) > --sue > > Wanda Pease wrote: >> Pastiche is an EVIL PLACE! Go not in to that dark land of temptation >> lest ye never return as the same man or woman to your friends! Silk, >> wool, linen, BOOKS! Oh, the horror of it! >> >> Regina Romsey >> (plus they give you a neat little card that you tot up your purchases >> on and when you reach a certain amount gives you money off your next >> purchase (grin) > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 00:31:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U4V7RM009401 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:31:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4UQYF015949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:30:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4UJfT006670; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:30:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4SnfU005629 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:28:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6U4TTjc015195 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:29:29 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Diamond twill source Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:35:16 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407300035.16410.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 29 July 2004 2:55 am, C M wrote: > Hi, > > A place in Sweden sells diamond twill wool. It's 150cm wide, and costs > around $45 per meter. This is the URl: > http://www.handelsgillet.se/tyger.htm#diamantkypert. The last time I looked > they were sold out of all but one (red/black), but they mention in the > description (sorry, swedish only) that they are trying to get more colour > variants. They do international business and welcome enquiries: > kontakt@handelsgillet.se. Thanks! this looks like the best possibility yet (though it will be awhile before I nerve myself to pay $45 per meter. :-)) -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 00:37:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U4bdRM009421 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:37:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4b4YF016501 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:37:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4b3fT010377; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:37:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4axfU010349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:37:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6U4bduc015491 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:37:39 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics (diamond twill) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:43:26 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <016601c47536$33742530$0200a8c0@susan> <025601c47539$2f567f40$eaf4fea9@glendaii> In-Reply-To: <025601c47539$2f567f40$eaf4fea9@glendaii> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407300043.26529.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 29 July 2004 2:56 am, Glenda Robinson wrote: [snip] > I got some Diamond-twill heavy-weight wool from a Regia Anglorum supplier > in the UK called Ali. Just finished my Anglo-Saxon tunic from it. It was > the last of the bolt of a mid green, but as he gets them made up by the > bolt from a factory, he may well get some more in. It was 5 pounds/metre. > > He was just about to move when we saw him a year ago. Does anyone here have > his contact details? And I bet he doesn't have a web site. Dang. Thanks anyway! -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 00:42:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U4gVRM009435 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:42:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4ftYF016990 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:41:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4fsfT013152; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:41:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4fmfU013101 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:41:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6U4gQsS015694 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:42:27 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] contrasting gores vs. split AND princess seams?! Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:48:13 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407300048.13922.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=PLING_QUERY autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 29 July 2004 1:37 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > Robin: [snip] > > > > > Actually, > > > > > there are plenty of examples of overgown/undergown combinations in > > > > > the same colors (I just footnoted a couple in a paper I was > > > > > writing, but focusing about 50 years earlier, so not the same > > > > > styles, I'm afraid). > > Catherine: > > > > Ah, but in the same exact shades of the same colors? > > Robin: > > > Yup. Though I suspect the choice is often compositional -- e.g. to > > > simplify the painting of, or the visual impact of, a figure that is > > > small or has a minor role in the scene. I'll take your word for it, for now, since Felicite seems to be at least one example, and I'll keep my eyes peeled in future. > > Catherine: > > Hmmm. If that was the case, I wonder why it would be important to show > > the figure in a surcoat at all.... > > I'm referring to all types of overgown/undergown combinations, not > sideless surcotes in particular. Yes, somebody posted a picture of a Fra Angelico painting with a total over/undergown combo. It's an interesting question whether *that* image represents a fashion, the result of a non-fashion-related artistic decision by the painter, or something else entirely. > Most noble figures are shown in multiple > layers, That's not news. :-) > and there are a lot of over/under variations over the 15th c.! That I'll have to take your word for; it's not my period and I haven't given it a lot of attention in recent years. > Most surcotes, though, have fur plastrons, so the same-color-surcote isn't > a common issue. Ah. Interesting. Thanks for the time you've taken to discuss this issue. I've found it very informative. Take care. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 00:51:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U4p0RM009448 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:51:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4oJYF017632 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:50:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4oIfT017861; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:50:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U4oEfU017825 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 22:50:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6U4os2e016120 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:50:54 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:56:41 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407281955.32448.cathy@thyrsus.com> <00ff01c47570$8d969720$0400a8c0@compaqub> In-Reply-To: <00ff01c47570$8d969720$0400a8c0@compaqub> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407300056.41941.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 29 July 2004 9:32 am, E House wrote: [snip] [Re: my search for diamond twill fabric] > ----- > Now this, I have seen, although you may not like the natural fiber or the > weight of the fabric--I wouldn't really consider it suitable for gowns; > it's more like jeans-weight: > http://www.hempbasics.com/fabric/C5011.asp Huh. I've seen vaguely diamond-twill-like hemp blend weaves before on other sites, but they weren't quite right (I ordered swatches too). This one looks pretty close to me, though, and it's a site I hadn't found before. Thanks! > The weave doesn't show up too well in this picture, but I've got the sample > set and yep, it's diamond twill. If you're interested in it, I'll try to > get a digital pic of my sample. Not necessary. I find the picture pretty persuasive, and if I want confirmation, I'll get a swatch of my own. But thanks! -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 01:05:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U557RM009525 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:05:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U530YF018584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:03:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U52wfT024864; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:02:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from adl0728.systems.sa.gov.au (adl0728.systems.sa.gov.au [143.216.236.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U52sfT024752 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:02:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from tonkin.rebecca@saugov.sa.gov.au) Received: from adl0728.systems.sa.gov.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by adl0728.systems.sa.gov.au OUTGOING (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6U52ibh028196 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:32:44 +0930 (CST)' Received: from sagemsbb006.saugov.sa.gov.au (sagemsbb006.sagemsmrd01.sa.gov.au [143.216.59.14]) by adl0728.systems.sa.gov.au INCOMING (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id i6U52ipA028189 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:32:44 +0930 (CST)' Received: by sagemsbb006.sagemsmrd01.sa.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:32:43 +0930 Message-ID: <032A8573186A2B4EBBAEFA5784D0523508BF7D@sagemsg0007.sagemsmrd01.sa.gov.au> From: "Tonkin, Rebecca (PIRSA-SARDI)" To: "'h-costume@indra.com'" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:32:34 +0930 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] merino wool vs other wool (long) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi: As an agriculturalist, I would not say that modern merino wool is ultra-long compared to modern non-merino wool - depending on what you are comparing to. There are many different types of sheep these days, roughly classed as meat sheep (generally short coarse wool), dual-purpose sheep (wool & meat, better wool than meat sheep), wool sheep (for worsteds, woolens & blankets) and carpet wool sheep. Wool sheep get further subdivided too. (And wild sheep, and non-fleecy sheep like Damaras.) Modern merinos have longer wool than old-type merinos, for sure, but it is not as long as some of the carpet-wools, or "British breed" wool sheep. Merino is also finer wool than practically all other breeds. Incidentally, wool processors do not like wool that is longer than what their machinery is set up for - which at the factory I visited was about 3-4 inches - one year's growth. Longer than that tangles in the machinery, so longer is not necessarily better for modern processors. However, when trying to find a wool to replicate a cloth from a certain area, culture, class, whatever, I think the best approach would be to work from what is known about the cloth at the time, using records, archaeological evidence, etc, and try to match the fibre diameter, staple length, thread fineness, spin direction, weave, etc, with what is now available. Since most cloth available these days comes from breeds which are post-medieval, replicating "medieval wool" would probably require growing it yourself with one of the very few "medievalish" breeds still available. However, there will be cloths available today which would closely match *some* of the cloths available in *some* medieval times/places. This article: http://www.florilegium.org/files/ANIMALS/B-H-Cheviot-art.html is one which briefly covers this topic. It also has a bibliography which could be useful. There is also a paper (pdf file) called "Wool and Wool-Based Textiles in the West European Economy, c.800 - 1500: Innovations and Traditions in Textile Products, Technology, and Industrial Organisation" by John Munro available at www.economics.utoronto.ca/ ecipa/archive/UT-ECIPA-MUNRO-00-05.pdf (Need to paste that one in I'm afraid, not just click.) This has some useful information regarding characteristics of wools in medieval times. Hope this helps, Rebecca > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:43:01 +1000 > From: "Glenda Robinson" > Subject: Re: merino wool vs other wool > To: "Historical Costume" > Merino has an ultra-long staple compared to other breeds of > sheep for colder > climates. Australian merino has been developed to exploit this staple > further, so we end up with some of the longest stapled wool > in the world. > This means that the wool can be spun into a finer thread than > other breeds, > and it also ends up as a softer product. Thus wool made from merino is > beautifully fine and baby soft, but is not used to produce a > final product > anything like the wools that they produced in Northern Europe > in the middle > ages. > > Glenda. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, Glenda Robinson wrote: > > > > > Australian merino wool is not a decent approximation for > english wool, > > > and non-merino wool is very hard to find here. > > > > What are the differences? > > > > --Robin > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 02:59:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U6x4RM027137 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:59:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U6w6YF024453 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:58:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U6w1fT086702; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:58:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U6vxfT086637 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:58:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004073006575201300bcf5ke>; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:57:52 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:56:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407300056.41941.cathy@thyrsus.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Of course, just to dampen the blanket, there is much whingeing that modern hemp fabric does not in any way approximate historic hemp, too, being processed to make it softer than was possible. But I always think with the bast fibers that we forget how long they lasted -- and were re-used. Maybe NEW hemp is much softer than medieval NEW hemp, but as hemp that had been worn for a couple of years? I think it would pass, depending on the pickiness of your standards. Lauren > From: Catherine Olanich Raymond > > On Thursday 29 July 2004 9:32 am, E House wrote: > [snip] > [Re: my search for diamond twill fabric] >> ----- >> Now this, I have seen, although you may not like the natural fiber or the >> weight of the fabric--I wouldn't really consider it suitable for gowns; >> it's more like jeans-weight: >> http://www.hempbasics.com/fabric/C5011.asp > > Huh. I've seen vaguely diamond-twill-like hemp blend weaves before on other > sites, but they weren't quite right (I ordered swatches too). This one looks > pretty close to me, though, and it's a site I hadn't found before. Thanks! > > >> The weave doesn't show up too well in this picture, but I've got the sample >> set and yep, it's diamond twill. If you're interested in it, I'll try to >> get a digital pic of my sample. > > Not necessary. I find the picture pretty persuasive, and if I want > confirmation, I'll get a swatch of my own. But thanks! > > > -- > Cathy Raymond > > "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue > that counts."--Winston Churchill > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 03:50:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U7odRM011427 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:50:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U7nvYF027298 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:49:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U7nmfT013700; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:49:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U7nifT013591 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 01:49:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7beb2.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.178]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 80B4247FE16 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:49:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004d01c47609$c4123f90$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:49:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] reeled silk threads X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, Do you meen silk winded round on a spool or is reeled silk something else. All the silk embroidery floss i get from Pipers Silks is reeled on cardboard spools. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 04:09:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U89vRM018984 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:09:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U89HYF028335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:09:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U89DfT023345; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:09:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U89BfT023075 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:09:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6U89FT03272.; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:09:15 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:08:34 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:08:25 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Dorothy L. Sayers (was replacing a bodice piece) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby >>> bettina.anderson@direcway.com 30/07/2004 02:06:52 >>> >I remember reading that they did Busman's Holiday as a play, but >don't know about the series. I seem to remember that "Busman's Honeymoon" was originally written as a play. I don't remember it being done on TV, though. >I did discover through some imdb research on "Sense and >Sensibility" that the actress that plays Fanny Dashwood also plays >Harriet Vane in the EP series. I'm not sure I can picture that, in fact I >can not even make that work, but who knows...I am keeping an open >mind. Yes, that's right - Harriet Walter. Of course, she was eight years older in "S&S" ____________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 04:17:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U8H5RM021976 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 04:17:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U8GUYF028838 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:16:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U8GTfT027043; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:16:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U8GOfT026718 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 02:16:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i6U8GTT03993.; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:16:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:15:48 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.1 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:15:33 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] merino wool vs other wool (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Out of curiosity, what category does Shetland wool come into? I was in the Shetland Islands last month and noticed that the bits of wool I found caught on fences etc. felt especially soft compared to what you find in England. (I bought a locally knitted sweater too!) Kate Bunting Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 05:16:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U9GYRM009824 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 05:16:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U9FtYF001949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:15:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U9FpfT058004; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:15:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.172]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U9FlfT057978 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:15:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hbgd103@soton.ac.uk) Received: from modem-4062.bonobo.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.63.222] helo=soton.ac.uk) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1BqTUP-0000T0-OX for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:15:46 +0100 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:20:47 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed From: Hilary Davidson To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] 19th c. Danish shoes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I suppose I'm thinking of Bjarne here when I ask - does any one know a website with information on Danish women's shoes circa 1830-1850? Or a book lead would be great. I need pictures to look at cut and colour. And since I speak no Danish at all, searches are tricky... Cheers. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 05:51:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U9pZRM010023 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 05:51:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U9nhYF003319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:49:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U9nffT075273; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:49:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mhub.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (mhub.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.254.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U9nbfT075221 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:49:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:47:48 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost] charmeuse was (Just a minor rant.) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFF5@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] charmeuse was (Just a minor rant.) Thread-Index: AcR1zJpwCEoGqiKrRBmXzo7C9oFjJAATXkDQ content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Funny, I have never had much trouble with silk charmeuse. I wash it, > then spay HEAVELY with spray starg --sometimes twice or three > times! it is then quite easy to deal with, though marking it up for making bias > tape is still not quite fun. I do that with any thin/sheer or slippery fabric, then rinse out the starch once it's made up Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 05:58:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6U9w3RM010050 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 05:58:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U9uGYF003643 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:56:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U9uEfT078887; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:56:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6U9uCfT078859 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 03:56:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:55:14 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: Re: [h-cost] Transition gown site? - IS THAT A TUCK/RUFFLE?!?! To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFF6@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost] Transition gown site? - IS THAT A TUCK/RUFFLE?!?! Thread-Index: AcR161MLh3fZcRqBQZaZTwsdHWWv3wAL7lBA content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I'm the one who posted the image, on either this or another > mailing list (and added the dotted lines that indicate the > seams). It's the left panel of the St. John Altarpiece, by > Van der Weyden: > http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/w/weyden/rogier/12stjohn/1john.html And it looks like sdhe could be displaying a tuck/ruffle in the skirt of her undergown too.... Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 08:13:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UCDURM010846 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:13:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UCCmYF010027 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:12:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UCCgfT050656; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:12:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UCCefT050636 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:12:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from arkham.cornell.edu (vcs077.vet.cornell.edu [128.253.111.77]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6UCCbq4021468 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20040730081147.0151ff40@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:12:41 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart In-Reply-To: <1773.68.109.4.7.1091160744.squirrel@webmail.quik.com> References: <41090D59.6000700@in-tch.com> <41090D59.6000700@in-tch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Pennsic X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey Anne I'll be going to Pennsic this year. last half of setup week and first half of war week. I will be teaching classes, but none on sewing this year so you can find me down in the A&S area or up on the hill just off the battlefield in the Myrkfaelinn North camp. Anyone else going? wanna hook up? Bridgette >Does anyone know if they plan to be at Pennsic this year? Anne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 09:45:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UDjtRM011370 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:45:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UDhrYF015232 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:43:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UDhnfT002002; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:43:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UDhgfT001847 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:43:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp02.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.122]) by smtpout06.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABASWWC4AEVALC2 for (sender ); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10678 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2004 13:42:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.0.41) by smtp02.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 13:42:37 -0000 Message-ID: <003001c4763b$084368c0$2900bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] beadwork Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:42:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ContentStamp: 9:4:4215719570 X-MAIL-INFO: 00ec1c9cec79850d7d191d7dece97dbd9db12901f5797df9084c49bdd8290085299df9993ced41c9f931ed95cd0558ad9989cdf5ad5d5c31add1957cd86cd81888b5d948d8c91cc9ddc87108b5f1c8c54800b51cc50c5d59c59c8c4d252c25acb1196cd525fc8dfc0de57d75196de5bdd511198dbd58dcd9a9d93861d8f8c88898c8c95988493c7ca535b985f15881a85898ac8c1c8c0deca16ccce925cc78fc69b1e579e57d656d7d65002d65002d69c8f1e8c571091d091c55e99c6c09cc218558ed5835b90535b9bc9db9bc X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55ofUBN3ag/RACxQrHWchlCMsFK7xbh4wRd8 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you for the explanation and the link. I knew I had to be missing something! Again, your work is lovely. Susy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Dorman" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:23 AM Subject: [h-cost] beadwork >What a beautiful website, and incredible beading ?>work. Your lovely bags >take my breath away. I am very uninformed in this >area, would you please >explain the use of the bags with the "perfume bottle" >openings. They are >absolutely gorgeous to look upon, but I'm afraid I >don't understand how to >use one, or is the top an illusion. I believe one was >titled, "Winter >Water". >Congratulations on an incredibly well done site. >Susy Thank you so much for your kind comments. "Winter Water" is mounted on an antique "gateleg" style frame. There is a round circular hinged top on the middle of the frame, which is opened up and than the frame expands into a larger circle so that items (and hands) can be inserted. Try this link : http://www.lacis.com/catalog/data/ls58.html to see one partially opened. Thank you again, Kelly Dorman www.backwardglances.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 09:51:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UDpNRM011397 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:51:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UDohYF015806 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:50:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UDoffT006345; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:50:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UDoZfT006221 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:50:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp02.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.122]) by smtpout06.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABASWWSCASL4Y4A for (sender ); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 06:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12830 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2004 13:49:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.0.41) by smtp02.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 13:49:01 -0000 Message-ID: <005701c4763b$f72399b0$2900bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <026201c4758f$63e14fa0$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hat Picture Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:48:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ContentStamp: 7:3:966986086 X-MAIL-INFO: 5a0529c974193505d97425c0f06069293dc06169912dd9690c251500dd00b1edb440f50035703581208dc4b4c12009f555b47009659154091da139a490a4f934f4ddd5a494419450d06de9f4b9d0fdd504f441fd60b12511254045a94045ed2045ed2060190159e505e931e9746121bd49e92df5a124dd24a414d1a414d0d514d0 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55ofUBN3ag/RACwaEs3b5hdW2XOlfhHwHIBX X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO totally of topic... I absolutely LOVE your byline!!! Susy > ****************************************************** > On nights such as this, witches are abroad. > > Well, not actually abroad. They don't like the food > and you can't trust the water and the shamans > always hog the deckchairs. > > Terry Pratchett > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 09:54:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UDs2RM011415 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:54:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UDrPYF016045 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:53:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UDrOfT008057; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:53:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UDrKfT007984 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:53:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m180.in-tch.com [216.166.191.180]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6UDr7Y24223 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:53:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <410A53C0.207@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:57:20 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] reeled silk threads References: <004d01c47609$c4123f90$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> In-Reply-To: <004d01c47609$c4123f90$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Didn't see the original post, but they probably were referring to silk that was "spun" to make the thread, as opposed to "reeled." Spinning it will twist it, and reeled will not, so the reeled silk will look much, much shinier. I've also heard of "thrown" silk, which seems to involve introducing a *slight* amount of twist into the little bundles of silk strands that will become silk thread or yarn. With reeled, the silk worker would be working with very long individual strands of silk fiber (like, winding it right off the cocoon), while with spun silk, the spinner can use much shorter lengths prepared in any one of a number of ways prior to the spinning. Most of the silk threads available today are spun. There are some that are not (notably used for chinese embroidery), and some that are in-between. And while I'm sure it probably exists somewhere, I've not yet seen modern-made fabric done with a reeled silk, just with spun. I know you do mostly 18th c. stuff, Bjarne, and I don't know enough about the techniques then to speculated, but most of the extant examples of silk fibers/yarns/fabric from my chosen area (middle ages/renaissance) are thrown or reeled silk. I know of only a very few examples of things made with spun silk.... Interestingly enough, a recent issue of Spin-Off had a great article about spinning one's own silk embroidery thread. The author talks about the different kinds of silk fibers available (made from different moths, etc.). Tussah silk, she says, "is coarser than bombyx, [and] tends to spread more and is a good choice for floss," by which she means a thread that's soft, loosely twisted (like a loosely twisted two-ply or a single), and used for forming flat surfaces, like large areas of satin stitch. She goes on to say that bombyx silk (finer and more lustrous than tussah) is better for tightly twisted and plied "cord", which would be "'especially good for chain stitch, buttonhole stitch, and any looped or feathered stitch.'" If nothing else gets me into spinning silk, this article definitely will! --sue Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote: > Hi, > Do you meen silk winded round on a spool or is reeled silk something else. > All the silk embroidery floss i get from Pipers Silks is reeled on cardboard > spools. > > Bjarne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 10:17:42 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UEHgRM011531 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:17:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UEH6YF017802 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:17:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UEH2fT023232; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:17:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UEGxfT023146 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:17:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m180.in-tch.com [216.166.191.180]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6UEGiY03206 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:16:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <410A5949.3030504@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:20:57 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] merino wool vs other wool (long) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is what my book on wools (_In Sheep's Clothing_) has to say about Shetland wool. "The Shetland is a member of the northern short-tailed group of sheep and has the characteristic naturally short tail. Evidence of a slight double coat, a tendency to molt, and a rich variety of natural colors indicate close ties to primitive ancestors....Shetland has the finest wool among the British breeds, with a silky but slightly crisp hand. The staples are indistinct with tapered tips; the entire fleece is somewhat open. The wool doesn't have a noticeable luster, and the well-developed crimp gives it a light, airy feel. Shetland wool has traditionally been used to make warm, rugged fabrics, including Fair Isle knitwear and woven tweeds. The famed handspun Sheltand lace yarns are made from selected neck wool, which is considereably finer and softer than the rest of the fleece." The fiber diameter seems to be in the same basic range as most merino that I've spun, and the staple length varies from 2-5 inches. Elsewhere in the book, shetland wool is noted as a down-type wool, which has "a distinctive crisp feel and a full, spongy handle....The fibers are long compared to the length of the staple because of a well-developed spiral crimp. Although indistinct in the staples, the crimp contributes to the wool's excellent resilience, loft, bulk, and elasticity." Merino, on the other hand, is defined as a "fine" wool, with a very soft handle. The raw fleece has a very high percentage of lanolin (as much as 25 to 45 percent of the total weight). It has a shorter staple length than the shetland, and a little finer diameter. Merino also has less elasticity than Shetland, and it also looks like it is less strong than Shetland. Personal experience, and the characteristics of the individual wools, would lead me to think of Shetland as something you'd use to make woolen clothing or yarn. Spinning it feels much like spinning a cloud, to me, and the natural loftiness of the fiber would lend itself more to one of the spinning methods that produce woolen yarns. It'd be wonderful for yarns for sweaters, hats, etc. Merino, on the other hand, is especially noted for its softness, and most recommendations favor its use for baby garments and next-to-the-skin clothing. I've not yet had the chance to spin merino that's been carded (i.e., prepared for woolen spinning), as all the commercially-prepared merino fiber I've so far found is combed (a worsted technique), and I have spun lots of it up using a worsted technique on my drop spindle. You can also frequently find the fiber prepared as a blend with silk, which would give it some shine (merino's not an especially glossy/shiny wool). Probably far more than you wanted, but.... --sue, who loved seeing all the sheep through the train windows when she traveled in the UK a couple of years ago.... Kate M Bunting wrote: > Out of curiosity, what category does Shetland wool come into? I was in > the Shetland Islands last month and noticed that the bits of wool I > found caught on fences etc. felt especially soft compared to what you > find in England. (I bought a locally knitted sweater too!) > > Kate Bunting > Library, University of Derby _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 10:29:06 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UET6RM011627 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:29:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UERJYF018505 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:27:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UER9fT030270; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:27:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UER7fU030242 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:27:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6UEOPtY006004 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:24:25 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410A5ABA.1000709@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:27:06 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] wools References: <410A5949.3030504@in-tch.com> In-Reply-To: <410A5949.3030504@in-tch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I recently worked with a fabric woven by Thora Sharptooth/Carolyn Priest-Dorman, specifically like the wools found in 9th century Iceland: "The raw material is Icelandic wool, a singles yarn called "eingirni" that I got from an importer. It is spun in Iceland from mixed thel and tog, i.e., both inner and outer coats together. It is apparently a semi-worsted yarn that in modern archaeo-speak would be called a "hairy" yarn. Ends of tog (the hairy outer coat wool) stick up from the surface of the cloth; these can be snipped away if they're bothersome." It was a bit prickly, but felt like it would stand up to a lot of use. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent We're on the way to Wiggle Bay And our brains, are draining out our ears. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 10:30:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UEUeRM011639 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:30:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UETvYF018719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:29:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UETufT032039; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:29:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from alpha2.AXP.MDX.AC.UK (alpha2.axp.mdx.ac.uk [158.94.0.14]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UETqfT032005 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:29:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Teddy@mdx.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:28:59 +0100 From: Teddy Subject: RE: [h-cost]O.T. Busmans Honeymoon (WAS: Dorothy L. Sayers ) To: h-costume@indra.com Message-id: <8AFF1656DE4AB348973023624E8F401902FFFD@MDX-CLX-DC1.uni.mdx.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-Topic: [h-cost]O.T. Busmans Honeymoon (WAS: Dorothy L. Sayers ) Thread-Index: AcR2O67lR4aOORY5QYy9PskaIg6V/gABZdNw content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-INTERNAL-IP: 10.13.82.21 X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > bettina.anderson@direcway.com 30/07/2004 02:06:52 >>> > > I remember reading that they did Busman's Holiday as a play, > > but don't know about the series. > > I seem to remember that "Busman's Honeymoon" was originally > written as a play. I don't remember it being done on TV, though. It must have been done on TV becasue it's one of the ones I *haven't* read so I must know the story from a TV version in the 80's Teddy _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 10:37:02 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UEb2RM011720 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:37:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UEaMYF019272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:36:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UEaJfT036525; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:36:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from softwareinnovation.com (w002.z064000176.dfw-tx.dsl.cnc.net [64.0.176.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UEaHfT036445 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:36:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from betsy@softwareinnovation.com) Received: from theforce ([64.0.176.13]) by softwareinnovation.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:35:56 -0500 From: "Betsy Marshall" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] reeled silk threads Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:36:23 -0500 Message-ID: <005001c47642$965a0ea0$0db00040@softwareinnovation.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <004d01c47609$c4123f90$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2004 14:35:56.0933 (UTC) FILETIME=[867ACB50:01C47642] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My understanding is that "reeled" silk is the long long threads unwound from the cocoons, and spun silk was how they treated the shorter/broken fibers. Most of the Noil fabric we see here in the US is the spun type, while the organza and habotai(China) silk are from reeled threads. (Don't get me started on the Dupioni- those slubs can be avoided, they just don't want to.) Betsy in cool (!!) and soggy (!!) Texas -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Bjarne og Leif Drews Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 2:50 AM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] reeled silk threads Hi, Do you meen silk winded round on a spool or is reeled silk something else. All the silk embroidery floss i get from Pipers Silks is reeled on cardboard spools. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 10:59:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UExWRM012094 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:59:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UEwrYF021048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:58:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UEwkfT052615; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:58:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts8.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.166]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UEwifT052565 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:58:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.68.137.102]) by simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040730145744.MVAE28685.simmts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:57:44 -0400 Message-ID: <004601c47645$73583c80$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <026201c4758f$63e14fa0$cb6afea9@sherry> <005701c4763b$f72399b0$2900bc3f@susyhp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hat Picture Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:55:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Heh, thanks! Terry Prattchet is one of my favorite authors, witty, silly, fun and very observant of human nature. One of these days I would like to make a Conina the Barbarian costume, just to say I did. Although, a Magrat outfit would likely suit my hair better... :-) Sheridan From: "Susy" > totally of topic... > I absolutely LOVE your byline!!! > Susy > > > ****************************************************** > > On nights such as this, witches are abroad. > > > > Well, not actually abroad. They don't like the food > > and you can't trust the water and the shamans > > always hog the deckchairs. > > > > Terry Pratchett > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 11:07:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UF7kRM012128 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:07:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UF6uYF021852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:06:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UF6qfT058495; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:06:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UF6ofT058399 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:06:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12120 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:11:35 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:11:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] reeled silk threads In-Reply-To: <410A53C0.207@in-tch.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Sue Clemenger wrote: > Didn't see the original post, but they probably were referring to silk > that was "spun" to make the thread, as opposed to "reeled." Spinning > it will twist it, and reeled will not, so the reeled silk will look > much, much shinier. Betsy already answered this, but I'll emphasize -- I'm told that the key issue here is the length of the fibers, not the twist. Silk that's reeled off the cocoon is l-o-n-g, one continuous fiber. Spun silk is made out of broken fibers, including those from shattered cocoons and (traditionally) the sweepings off the silkroom floor ;-) This isn't my expertise, though I do have friends who reel silk to make their own thread; I'm repeating what they've told me, and if I have it wrong I'd love to be corrected! I gather that you reel several/many cocoons at once to make a single thread of multiple fibers. I assume there's some twisting involved in this to hold them together, but it's a lot different from spinning, so there is a twist difference as well. > Most of the silk threads available today are spun. There are some > that are not (notably used for chinese embroidery), and some that are > in-between. And while I'm sure it probably exists somewhere, I've not > yet seen modern-made fabric done with a reeled silk, just with spun. A lot of the thin Chinese silks (blouseweight), satins, taffetas, and other shiny silk fabrics are reeled. When I'm not certain, I pull off a thread and ply out the fibers (very slow and delicate work!). If an 8-inch thread gives me multiple 8-inch fibers, I assume I've got reeled silk. I have no idea what's available in embroidery materials, though. I know just enough about the fabrics to allow me to choose suitable materials. And reeled silk fabric that's heavy enough to work with for a medieval gown is awfully scarce :-( I think dupioni is reeled, but it's far too slubby. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 11:20:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UFKDRM012251 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:20:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UFHxYF022982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:17:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UFHmfT067218; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:17:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UFHjfT067050 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:17:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp03.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.123]) by smtpout04.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABASW3UNAF5JYVJ for (sender ); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3737 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2004 15:15:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.0.41) by smtp03.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 15:15:32 -0000 Message-ID: <005e01c47648$0d335f90$2900bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <41090D59.6000700@in-tch.com> <1773.68.109.4.7.1091160744.squirrel@webmail.quik.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:15:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ContentStamp: 20:10:3808416943 X-MAIL-INFO: 3aa4d4a16d2459a4446d1994c5d564d47594fd642d4144648519b9514051c9e0c00529515961591060e554c0f06069293dc06169912dd9690c251500dd00b1edb440f50035703581208dc4b4c12009f555b47009d5c919901905a00105a0e060a0e060d524d134f4a4c4bdc46dfd65849dc44129250d400d003045003020f53020 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55offjm9DcOKEKWgole/z0jGLWpyyBbUVRuG X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I plan to be at Pennsic this year! My first time and I'm VERY excited. Hence my great interest in researching Celtic dress. Although we are from a period before the middle ages, my clann attends every year. I will be camping with Clann Preachain down in the bog. Looks like a number of interesting classes I plan to be attending on weaving. Susy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] hard-to-find fabrics-really nice Linen. > Does anyone know if they plan to be at Pennsic this year? Anne > > > > > > > I don't think they had those at Uprising. Bummer. They're certainly > > some of the better merchants I've ever seen in Artemisia for a *long* > > time. (uh, ooops on the SCA reference--"Uprising" is my region's > > largest single annual event, held every June in Idaho Falls, ID). > > I should mention that they're also selling some nice fibers for > > spinning--I bought a couple of bumps of a wool/silk blend for a present > > for a friend. AND they're selling wool embroidery yarn dyed with an > > amazing range of natural dyes. > > It's a very, very good thing that they're normally located a couple of > > states away from me! ;o) > > --sue > > > > Wanda Pease wrote: > >> Pastiche is an EVIL PLACE! Go not in to that dark land of temptation > >> lest ye never return as the same man or woman to your friends! Silk, > >> wool, linen, BOOKS! Oh, the horror of it! > >> > >> Regina Romsey > >> (plus they give you a neat little card that you tot up your purchases > >> on and when you reach a certain amount gives you money off your next > >> purchase (grin) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 13:18:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UHIARM013041 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:18:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHHOYF004896 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:17:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHHIfT062470; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:17:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell3.shore.net (shell3.shore.net [207.244.124.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHHFfU062402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:17:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from vintage@primushost.com) Received: from vintage by shell3.shore.net with local (Exim) for id 1Bqb2P-00036U-00; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:19:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:19:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Katy Bishop To: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com In-Reply-To: <1e5.26540cff.2e3a914b@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Charmeuse alternative was Just a minor rant. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO As an alternative to silk charmeuse I like Oriental silk's "Kwong Chow Silk Satin". It is very lightweight, has a great sheen, but doesn't have the slipperyness of charmeuse. It is a dream to sew with. Check out www.orientalsilks.com (though they don't show all the colors on the website) Katy On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com wrote: >If I ever, ever, EVER even contemplate purchasing charmeuse to sew with >again, EVER, for any reason, would someone PLEASE thump me upside the head??? > >Normal satin is bad enough, but charmeuse actually somehow takes on a life of >its own and wanders in every direction, generally at the worst moment humanly >possible. > >Give me a nice velvet or broadcloth any day. > >-Tiffany >Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. >******************************* >Reflections*of*Worth >http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 13:20:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UHKURM013056 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:20:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHJpYF005093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:19:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHJofT064397; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:19:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell3.shore.net (shell3.shore.net [207.244.124.103]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHJifU064326 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:19:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from vintage@primushost.com) Received: from vintage by shell3.shore.net with local (Exim) for id 1Bqb4p-0003Fx-00; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:21:51 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:21:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Katy Bishop To: Diana Habra Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Any recommendations for steam iron besides Rowenta? In-Reply-To: <1069.24.4.69.40.1090904359.squirrel@24.4.69.40> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Historical Costume X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That was me, I used a Braun iron in Vienna and I loved it. I think I'm heading to Bed and Bath tomorrow! Thanks. Katy On Mon, 26 Jul 2004, Diana Habra wrote: > >> Hi all, Sorry to clog the airways with this, but my Rowenta has finally >> bit >> the big one. It is the 3rd or 4th one I have owned and am ready to try >> something new. >> >> Do any of you have experience with a steam iron you like besides Rowenta. > >I haven't had personal experience, but I saw Braun irons at Bed, Bath & >Beyond a little while ago that were similar to the Rowenta in weight. >When I mentioned it on this list, someone said they had used one in Europe >and was very happy with it. > >Good luck with your quest! > >Diana Habra >www.RenaissanceFabrics.net >"Everything for the Costumer" > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian vintage@shore.net www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 13:39:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UHd3RM013190 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:39:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHcHYF006658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:38:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHcCfT078978; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:38:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHcAfT078905 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:38:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.109] (pm7-109.eos.net [205.133.149.109]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UHc2Jr024901 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:38:02 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:35:28 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407300029.i6U0T9fU069405@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: frequent pregnancy and women X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Brandy wrote: > My understanding is that women were cattle, mostly women were treated well, > but no laws or obligations against abuse. Well, this is not really a supportable argument, although it is certainly a common one. You have to take into account the difference between laws and what was actually practised, as well as vast differences in time and local culture. As G.K. Chesterton once said in a wonderful essay on history, the idea that women were men's chattel isn't exactly believable to anyone who has known actual women. To insist on believing that all women were ever eternally pregnant is to insist that all men regularly raped their wives whenever they wanted sex -- as well as a host of medical issues such as nutrition and breastfeeding (which can limit ovulation); religious issues such as required abstinance at certain times of the year, certain days, or certain times of the month; practical difficulties such as jobs men had that required them to be away from home for long periods of time -- whether for days at a time, like shepherds, or years at a time, such as soldiers or sailors. And then there are marriage ages, which varied over time and place, and the vast number of women that never married at all. And finally, there is an implied criticism in the very idea of "perpetual pregnancy," and that is that being pregnant frequently cannot possibly have been any woman's choice. We are living in a time when large families are frowned upon, and women who choose to have them are considered almost freakish. But for most of history -- and I admit that's an exaggeration -- children were considered great blessings, and a big family was considered a wonderful thing. Just some food for thought. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 13:46:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UHkcRM013224 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:46:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHjgYF007507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:45:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHjcfT085187; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:45:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHjZfT085141 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:45:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040730174535.IILK22385.out006.verizon.net@brandyscomp>; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:45:35 -0500 Message-ID: <005301c4765d$04f44550$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" , References: Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:45:35 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:45:34 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] I LOVE IT was: Transition gown site X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I saw this one and fell in love. I would like to do it right, now where do I go from here? http://www.uvm.edu/%7Ehag/sca/15th/vosp235.jpg B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 13:47:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UHlLRM013228 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:47:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHkgYF007683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:46:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHkgfT086010; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:46:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.184]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UHjvfT085408 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:45:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.34.86 with login) by smtp805.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 17:45:56 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730123101.01d47b78@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:38:38 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting finds In-Reply-To: <4109237A.4020501@thibault.org> References: <200407291627.i6TGRAkE054063@sabre.goldsword.com> <4109237A.4020501@thibault.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A robin on my front step spoke in the voice of Cynthia Virtue, and said: >"Pillion" is riding behind the person who is actually directing the >horse. Or motorcycle. And it is not necessisarilly astride. Like the women in the August picture of Les Tres Riches Heures du Duc de Berry. The women are definitely side saddle, but they are sitting behind the men steering the horses. The woman in the middle is side saddle, too, but she is controlling her own horse. In the May picture, the women are side saddle as well, but not pillion. My question is about the shape of the Houpland sleeves. They seem to fall straight down from the shoulder. Every pattern I have seen for these things has the sleeve flare from the armscye, but these don't seem to do that. How would you shape the pattern to do that? Genie, who has tried riding pillion side saddle and found it rather easier than you'd think because the horses rump flattens out between the back legs. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 13:51:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UHpcRM013243 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:51:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHk2YF007551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:46:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHk0fT085465; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:46:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UHjZfT085143 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 11:45:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040730174535.IILK22385.out006.verizon.net@brandyscomp>; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:45:35 -0500 Message-ID: <005301c4765d$04f44550$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" , References: Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:45:35 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:45:34 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] I LOVE IT was: Transition gown site X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I saw this one and fell in love. I would like to do it right, now where do I go from here? http://www.uvm.edu/%7Ehag/sca/15th/vosp235.jpg B _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 14:06:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UI6LRM013344 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:06:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UI5fYF009494 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:05:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UI4vfT000406; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:04:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UI4ofU000343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:04:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6UI27tY007995 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:02:07 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410A8DBF.1050105@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:04:47 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] houp sleeve/Interesting finds References: <200407291627.i6TGRAkE054063@sabre.goldsword.com> <4109237A.4020501@thibault.org> <6.1.0.6.0.20040730123101.01d47b78@mail.justinanimator.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730123101.01d47b78@mail.justinanimator.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Genie Barrett wrote: > My question is about the shape of the Houpland sleeves. They seem to > fall straight down from the shoulder. Every pattern I have seen for > these things has the sleeve flare from the armscye, but these don't seem > to do that. How would you shape the pattern to do that? Do you mean that the patterns you've seen would be fairly narrow at the bicep on the way to a flare at the wrist, like a funnel? I do my houp sleeves without a sleeve cap. They're either trapezoids or half-ovals which are pleated into the armscye. This produces a lot of fullness/drape right close to the shoulder, and, I think, gives the right look. Here's too much information about the huge one I did 3 yrs ago: http://www.virtue.to/articles/laurel/laurel_constr.html -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent We're on the way to Wiggle Bay And our brains, are draining out our ears. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 14:10:54 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UIArRM013378 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:10:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UI8mYF009746 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:08:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UI7lfT002447; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:07:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UI6RfU001589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:06:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6UI3itY008003 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:03:44 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410A8E20.3040102@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:06:24 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] I LOVE IT was: Transition gown site References: <005301c4765d$04f44550$547c0f04@brandyscomp> In-Reply-To: <005301c4765d$04f44550$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Brandy Deming wrote: > I saw this one and fell in love. I would like to do it right, now where do I > go from here? > > http://www.uvm.edu/%7Ehag/sca/15th/vosp235.jpg I'd call that an upper-middle class houppelande or robe. You'll find lots of opinions and, I think, websites, with ways to do houps. Mine is one of them (see the other thread about houp sleeves) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent We're on the way to Wiggle Bay And our brains, are draining out our ears. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 14:15:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UIFBRM013392 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:15:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIEQYF010327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:14:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIEPfT007953; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:14:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIELfT007880 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:14:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA05160 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:14:18 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: frequent pregnancy and women Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:14:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If women were mostly meek, mild, chattels, there would have been no need, especially in the first two centuries of the printing press, for all the books(written mostly by men)for all the books preaching for women to be meek, mild, silent, chaste, pure, patient, modest(and modestly-dressed), chattels. And all the sermons by most religious organizations preaching the same. Would have been a waste of paper, time, and printer's ink--well, not that it was, anyway. But all those "Advice to Women" books certainly sold. And since men held the purse-strings legally at least, guess who probably bought most of those books. Cindy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 14:29:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UIT4RM013472 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:29:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIRmYF011509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:27:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIRXfT018265; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:27:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail11.mdx.safepages.com (mail11.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIRUfT018216 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:27:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail11.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 4509FA0E65; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:27:33 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust23.tnt1.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.148.23]) by mail11.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 24B74A0EDF for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:27:31 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <029c01c47663$1f113dc0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <410A5949.3030504@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:29:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Wool and silk--semi OT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Would wool have been spun with silk in the 15thC or earlier? I keep meaning to look that up, but what little I've found so far isn't clear on whether silk was woven with wool (e.g. silk warp, wool weft) or spun with wool. My instincts say they wouldn't have spun it, but I hope they did! -E, preparing to dive feet-first into weaving, and get in as far over her head as possible as fast as possible _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 14:29:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UITXRM013476 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:29:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIShYF011604 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:28:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UISgfT019035; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:28:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UISafT018974 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:28:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be50.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.80]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 29AF147FE5E for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:28:33 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001e01c47663$0d68d330$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <004d01c47609$c4123f90$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> <410A53C0.207@in-tch.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] reeled silk threads Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:28:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks for explaining me about reeled silk, very interresting! Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Clemenger" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] reeled silk threads > Didn't see the original post, but they probably were referring to silk > that was "spun" to make the thread, as opposed to "reeled." Spinning it > will twist it, and reeled will not, so the reeled silk will look much, > much shinier. > I've also heard of "thrown" silk, which seems to involve introducing a > *slight* amount of twist into the little bundles of silk strands that > will become silk thread or yarn. With reeled, the silk worker would be > working with very long individual strands of silk fiber (like, winding > it right off the cocoon), while with spun silk, the spinner can use much > shorter lengths prepared in any one of a number of ways prior to the > spinning. > Most of the silk threads available today are spun. There are some that > are not (notably used for chinese embroidery), and some that are > in-between. And while I'm sure it probably exists somewhere, I've not > yet seen modern-made fabric done with a reeled silk, just with spun. > I know you do mostly 18th c. stuff, Bjarne, and I don't know enough > about the techniques then to speculated, but most of the extant examples > of silk fibers/yarns/fabric from my chosen area (middle > ages/renaissance) are thrown or reeled silk. I know of only a very few > examples of things made with spun silk.... > Interestingly enough, a recent issue of Spin-Off had a great article > about spinning one's own silk embroidery thread. The author talks about > the different kinds of silk fibers available (made from different moths, > etc.). Tussah silk, she says, "is coarser than bombyx, [and] tends to > spread more and is a good choice for floss," by which she means a thread > that's soft, loosely twisted (like a loosely twisted two-ply or a > single), and used for forming flat surfaces, like large areas of satin > stitch. She goes on to say that bombyx silk (finer and more lustrous > than tussah) is better for tightly twisted and plied "cord", which would > be "'especially good for chain stitch, buttonhole stitch, and any looped > or feathered stitch.'" If nothing else gets me into spinning silk, this > article definitely will! > --sue _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 14:49:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UInPRM013594 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:49:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIlSYF012970 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIlQfT032994; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepa.post.tele.dk (pfepa.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.235]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UIlGfT032854 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:47:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be50.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.80]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CACA247FE0E for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:47:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003201c47665$aad0ed90$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] reeled silk threads Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:47:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This makes sence. Still i want to say that the floss i have from Pipers must be reeled then, because it is very high glossy quality. When i compare my embroidery to the 18th century ones, the thread looks the same. Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Netherton" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] reeled silk threads > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Sue Clemenger wrote: > > > Didn't see the original post, but they probably were referring to silk > > that was "spun" to make the thread, as opposed to "reeled." Spinning > > it will twist it, and reeled will not, so the reeled silk will look > > much, much shinier. > > Betsy already answered this, but I'll emphasize -- I'm told that the key > issue here is the length of the fibers, not the twist. Silk that's reeled > off the cocoon is l-o-n-g, one continuous fiber. Spun silk is made out of > broken fibers, including those from shattered cocoons and (traditionally) > the sweepings off the silkroom floor ;-) > > This isn't my expertise, though I do have friends who reel silk to make > their own thread; I'm repeating what they've told me, and if I have it > wrong I'd love to be corrected! I gather that you reel several/many > cocoons at once to make a single thread of multiple fibers. I assume > there's some twisting involved in this to hold them together, but it's a > lot different from spinning, so there is a twist difference as well. > > > Most of the silk threads available today are spun. There are some > > that are not (notably used for chinese embroidery), and some that are > > in-between. And while I'm sure it probably exists somewhere, I've not > > yet seen modern-made fabric done with a reeled silk, just with spun. > > A lot of the thin Chinese silks (blouseweight), satins, taffetas, and > other shiny silk fabrics are reeled. When I'm not certain, I pull off a > thread and ply out the fibers (very slow and delicate work!). If an 8-inch > thread gives me multiple 8-inch fibers, I assume I've got reeled silk. > > I have no idea what's available in embroidery materials, though. I know > just enough about the fabrics to allow me to choose suitable materials. > And reeled silk fabric that's heavy enough to work with for a medieval > gown is awfully scarce :-( I think dupioni is reeled, but it's far too > slubby. > > --Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:15:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJF7RM013749 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:15:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJD5YF015104 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:13:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJD3fT051955; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:13:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJCwfT051900 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:12:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13934 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:17:45 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:17:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730123101.01d47b78@mail.justinanimator.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Houppelande sleeves, was: Interesting finds X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Genie Barrett wrote: > My question is about the shape of the Houpland sleeves. They seem to > fall straight down from the shoulder. Every pattern I have seen for > these things has the sleeve flare from the armscye, but these don't > seem to do that. How would you shape the pattern to do that? I've had the most luck by rotating the flare so that the longest part of the sleeve comes from the back of the shoulder -- a couple of inches behind the top of the shoulder. This is where I put my fold line on my sleeve. The inner sleeve seam, then, is located a couple of inches forward of the bottommost point of the armhole. This is also the point at which you get the lowest dip in the sine-curve of the sleeve cap. If you consider your range of motion of your arm, you need the least bulk in the lower front, and the most fabric over the upper back (where the height of the sleeve cap falls). I usually curve the sleeve seam to follow the angle of a somewhat bent arm. Hold your hand, palm up, in front of your belly. Imagine a line running from the front of your underarm (a couple of inches forward from your side seam), down your arm and into the crook of your elbow, then continuing along the inside of your arm to your wrist. That is the curved inner sleeve seam. Then the bulk of the sleeve falls back behind the arm, with the longest point falling from the back shoulder. For narrower period fabrics, you probably would have another seam down the back, not a fold, running down the longest part of the sleeve. A sleeve cut this way will not show the lining except as a fine line along the sleeve opening. If you put the longest part falling from the underarm (the way many patterns do), you get a horizontal swath of lining showing where the outer part of the sleeve hangs shorter than the inner part -- ouch. To make a bag sleeve, just round off the point at the bottom where the fold (or back seam) meets the sleeve opening. Then stitch around that and continue stitching up along the area that would have been open, leaving only a small opening for the wrist. You sometimes see decoration (such as fringe) set along that line, which suggests the presence of a seam here. This sort of bag sleeve would be a logical development from a flared sleeve such as I've described, but it would not have developed out of a conventional angel-wing flare. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:18:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJITRM014259 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:18:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJHnYF016072 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:17:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJHkfT057083; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:17:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.183]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UJHifT057053 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:17:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.34.86 with login) by smtp804.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 19:17:43 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730141628.01ca5ec0@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:17:16 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] houp sleeve/Interesting finds In-Reply-To: <410A8DBF.1050105@thibault.org> References: <200407291627.i6TGRAkE054063@sabre.goldsword.com> <4109237A.4020501@thibault.org> <6.1.0.6.0.20040730123101.01d47b78@mail.justinanimator.com> <410A8DBF.1050105@thibault.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A robin on my front step spoke in the voice of Cynthia Virtue, and said: >Genie Barrett wrote: > >>My question is about the shape of the Houpland sleeves. They seem to >>fall straight down from the shoulder. Every pattern I have seen for >>these things has the sleeve flare from the armscye, but these don't seem >>to do that. How would you shape the pattern to do that? > >Do you mean that the patterns you've seen would be fairly narrow at the >bicep on the way to a flare at the wrist, like a funnel? > >I do my houp sleeves without a sleeve cap. They're either trapezoids or >half-ovals which are pleated into the armscye. This produces a lot of >fullness/drape right close to the shoulder, and, I think, gives the right look. > >Here's too much information about the huge one I did 3 yrs ago: >http://www.virtue.to/articles/laurel/laurel_constr.html Cool!!! Thanks, I think that will work. Genie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:26:37 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJQbRM021249 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:26:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJOhYF016901 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:24:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJOefT062246; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:24:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJOcfT062184 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:24:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14044 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:29:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:29:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] houp sleeve/Interesting finds In-Reply-To: <410A8DBF.1050105@thibault.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > I do my houp sleeves without a sleeve cap. They're either trapezoids > or half-ovals which are pleated into the armscye. This produces a lot > of fullness/drape right close to the shoulder, and, I think, gives the > right look. Something I should have said on my last post (made about the same time as Cynthia's, and we both changed the subject line, but to slightly different things): There are clearly a lot of construction variants for houppelandes. The term is used to encompass a broad range of overgowns that have in common the use of fullness. Styles changed from one place to another and one time to another, and multiple styles might appear in the same place/time. So you can have several equally reasonable constructions for the houppelande body that produce varying silhouettes, each supported in the sources. The same goes for the sleeves. On the sleeves, one area of variation is whether there is pleating on the sleeve cap. Some sources show no pleating, while others show a little pleating, and others show a lot. The variations hang differently in the pictures, which suggests a range of constructions. Cynthia's version is a solution for a pleated-cap look, whereas the one I described in my post is based on a non-pleated cap -- two different looks, and different types of fullness/flare. Look at some period images while you play with some big heavy pieces of fabric, and you'll see how some of the differences can be achieved. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:26:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJQwRM021255 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:26:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJP8YF016988 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:25:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJP7fT062542; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:25:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (outbound28-2.lax.untd.com [64.136.28.160]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UJP0fT062409 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:25:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pagansoccermom@netzero.net) Received: from outbound28-2.lax.untd.com (smtp04.lax.untd.com [10.130.24.124]) by smtpout05.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABASXJDUAT8JEEJ for (sender ); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24136 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2004 19:24:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO susyhp) (63.188.17.9) by smtp04.lax.untd.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 19:24:18 -0000 Message-ID: <00a601c4766a$c9697880$2900bc3f@susyhp> From: "Susy" To: "Historical Costume" References: <026201c4758f$63e14fa0$cb6afea9@sherry><005701c4763b$f72399b0$2900bc3f@susyhp> <004601c47645$73583c80$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hat Picture Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:19:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ContentStamp: 17:8:1958509191 X-MAIL-INFO: 5241109da055114101a004ade051e9108dadbde9c1f001e971045961916149404d2d8161113111690030d44ded0089816d4d3189b9c1a989e17935706570b5dd99915070a5c5a509a414299934a484507499c58451490421042d25b12d2540002540005155c9908041292029a0bd1560d929f081793d913d7024a17024a45024a4 X-UNTD-OriginStamp: HdyqQQTNgAkMx9lp68PFujYm/6Ua55offjm9DcOKEKUR5DQkzZ6Q0P7jrpZOn1MC X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sounds like fun! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hat Picture > Heh, thanks! > > Terry Prattchet is one of my favorite authors, witty, silly, fun and very > observant of human nature. > > One of these days I would like to make a Conina the Barbarian costume, just > to say I did. Although, a Magrat outfit would likely suit my hair better... > :-) > > Sheridan > > From: "Susy" > > > totally of topic... > > I absolutely LOVE your byline!!! > > Susy > > > > > ****************************************************** > > > On nights such as this, witches are abroad. > > > > > > Well, not actually abroad. They don't like the food > > > and you can't trust the water and the shamans > > > always hog the deckchairs. > > > > > > Terry Pratchett > > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:27:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJRjRM021261 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:27:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJRDYF017272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:27:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJRDfT064194; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:27:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.181]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UJR9fT064156 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:27:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.34.86 with login) by smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 19:27:08 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730142118.01c85ec0@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:28:04 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houppelande sleeves, was: Interesting finds In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730123101.01d47b78@mail.justinanimator.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A robin on my front step spoke in the voice of Robin Netherton, and said: >On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Genie Barrett wrote: > > > My question is about the shape of the Houpland sleeves. They seem to > > fall straight down from the shoulder. Every pattern I have seen for > > these things has the sleeve flare from the armscye, but these don't > > seem to do that. How would you shape the pattern to do that? > >I've had the most luck by rotating the flare so that the longest >part of the sleeve comes from the back of the shoulder -- a couple of >inches behind the top of the shoulder. This is where I put my fold line on >my sleeve. > >The inner sleeve seam, then, is located a couple of inches forward of the >bottommost point of the armhole. This is also the point at which you get >the lowest dip in the sine-curve of the sleeve cap. If you consider your >range of motion of your arm, you need the least bulk in the lower front, >and the most fabric over the upper back (where the height of the sleeve >cap falls). So, If I hold my arm out, perpendicular from my shoulder, the seam would (with my thumb straight up) be down the inside of my arm, and connect to the front of the armscye? >I usually curve the sleeve seam to follow the angle of a somewhat bent >arm. Hold your hand, palm up, in front of your belly. Imagine a line >running from the front of your underarm (a couple of inches forward from >your side seam), down your arm and into the crook of your elbow, then >continuing along the inside of your arm to your wrist. That is the curved >inner sleeve seam. So your pattern is shaped how? I've seen the ones that are a weird triangle pattern, but they don't work right. Then there is the half-circle that Cynthia suggests, where the shoulder seam is in, sort of, the middle of the straight side. How is this one compared to those? >Then the bulk of the sleeve falls back behind the arm, with the longest >point falling from the back shoulder. For narrower period fabrics, you >probably would have another seam down the back, not a fold, running down >the longest part of the sleeve. > >A sleeve cut this way will not show the lining except as a fine line along >the sleeve opening. If you put the longest part falling from the underarm >(the way many patterns do), you get a horizontal swath of lining showing >where the outer part of the sleeve hangs shorter than the inner part -- >ouch. Please clarify? Where is this? I haven't made one of these yet, and wanted to get the logistics right first before going beyond the sketching stage. >To make a bag sleeve, just round off the point at the bottom where the >fold (or back seam) meets the sleeve opening. Then stitch around that and >continue stitching up along the area that would have been open, leaving >only a small opening for the wrist. You sometimes see decoration (such as >fringe) set along that line, which suggests the presence of a seam here. >This sort of bag sleeve would be a logical development from a flared >sleeve such as I've described, but it would not have developed out of a >conventional angel-wing flare. > >--Robin Thanks so very much Genie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:30:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJUcRM021278 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:30:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJTvYF017536 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:29:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJTrfT066314; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:29:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.83]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UJTpfT066265 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:29:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.34.86 with login) by smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 19:29:50 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730143016.01c8ba00@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:30:45 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] houp sleeve/Interesting finds In-Reply-To: <410A8DBF.1050105@thibault.org> References: <200407291627.i6TGRAkE054063@sabre.goldsword.com> <4109237A.4020501@thibault.org> <6.1.0.6.0.20040730123101.01d47b78@mail.justinanimator.com> <410A8DBF.1050105@thibault.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, I looked a bit closer, and it isn't a half circle that you used. How does the half circle compare? Genie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:39:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJd9RM021356 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:39:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJcVYF018396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:38:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJcSfT072599; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:38:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJcQfT072547 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:38:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14175 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:43:14 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:43:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houppelande sleeves, was: Interesting finds In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730142118.01c85ec0@mail.justinanimator.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Genie Barrett wrote: > So, If I hold my arm out, perpendicular from my shoulder, the seam > would (with my thumb straight up) be down the inside of my arm, and > connect to the front of the armscye? The lower front, just a bit forward of the side seam. But think about it -- how often do you hold your arm out like that? Hold your arm in a natural position when you're draping/fitting -- about midway through the range of motion in all directions. Like this: > >I usually curve the sleeve seam to follow the angle of a somewhat bent > >arm. Hold your hand, palm up, in front of your belly. Imagine a line > >running from the front of your underarm (a couple of inches forward from > >your side seam), down your arm and into the crook of your elbow, then > >continuing along the inside of your arm to your wrist. That is the curved > >inner sleeve seam. > > So your pattern is shaped how? I've seen the ones that are a weird > triangle pattern, but they don't work right. Then there is the half-circle > that Cynthia suggests, where the shoulder seam is in, sort of, the middle > of the straight side. How is this one compared to those? Completely different. Hard to do in ASCII. If you need me to send you a sketch via email, I will. > >A sleeve cut this way will not show the lining except as a fine line along > >the sleeve opening. If you put the longest part falling from the underarm > >(the way many patterns do), you get a horizontal swath of lining showing > >where the outer part of the sleeve hangs shorter than the inner part -- > >ouch. > > Please clarify? Where is this? The visible horizontal swath of lining? Not in any period source that I know of, but on a lot of modern costumes! Just make a flare with the long part coming from under the arm, and you can have this problem too ;-) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:48:55 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJmsRM021407 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:48:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJmIYF019188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:48:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJmFfT079900; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:48:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJmBfU079847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:48:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6UJjTtY008390 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:45:29 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410AA5F9.5090403@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:48:09 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] houp sleeve/Interesting finds References: <200407291627.i6TGRAkE054063@sabre.goldsword.com> <4109237A.4020501@thibault.org> <6.1.0.6.0.20040730123101.01d47b78@mail.justinanimator.com> <410A8DBF.1050105@thibault.org> <6.1.0.6.0.20040730143016.01c8ba00@mail.justinanimator.com> In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730143016.01c8ba00@mail.justinanimator.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Genie Barrett wrote: > Oh, I looked a bit closer, and it isn't a half circle that you used. > How does the half circle compare? Much the same. The illustration I was working from looked very much like there was a right angle at the bottom of the sleeve when laid out flat, so I made it angular. This is the main page about my weird houp idea (original, near as I can find; I'm rather proud of it) http://www.virtue.to/articles/circle_houp.html Here's a picture of me and husband in a less luxurious houp (This is the Medieval Miscellanea A-line houp pattern, which I don't recommend) with the half-circle sleeve cut. http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/fandc.jpg -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent We're on the way to Wiggle Bay And our brains, are draining out our ears. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:49:46 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJnkRM021412 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:49:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJnCYF019327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:49:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJnBfT080560; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:49:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.181]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UJn7fT080536 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:49:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.34.86 with login) by smtp802.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 19:49:06 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730144433.01d430a8@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:50:00 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houppelande sleeves, was: Interesting finds In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730142118.01c85ec0@mail.justinanimator.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A robin on my front step spoke in the voice of Robin Netherton, and said: > > > > So your pattern is shaped how? I've seen the ones that are a weird > > triangle pattern, but they don't work right. Then there is the > half-circle > > that Cynthia suggests, where the shoulder seam is in, sort of, the middle > > of the straight side. How is this one compared to those? > >Completely different. Hard to do in ASCII. If you need me to send you a >sketch via email, I will. Could you? Or maybe, if you have a scanner...? > > >A sleeve cut this way will not show the lining except as a fine line along > > >the sleeve opening. If you put the longest part falling from the underarm > > >(the way many patterns do), you get a horizontal swath of lining showing > > >where the outer part of the sleeve hangs shorter than the inner part -- > > >ouch. > > > > Please clarify? Where is this? > >The visible horizontal swath of lining? Not in any period source that I >know of, but on a lot of modern costumes! Just make a flare with the long >part coming from under the arm, and you can have this problem too ;-) > >--Robin Well, I'm looking at the Duc du Berry calender pictures, and those have no noticeable gather/pleating at the sleeves. I do see the liner, but it's only at the flare in the front, and you can see the gray--fur? In the May picture, one of the girls has a fringe down the back of her sleeve, and that is the dress I'm looking to make, someday. If you don't have a copy, I'll scan one tonight when my husband comes home and give you a URL. Then, things might be a bit more clear. Then I'll start asking questions about the collar/hangy things. :-) Thanks, Genie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:50:19 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJoJRM021418 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:50:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJifYF018854 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:44:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJidfT077300; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:44:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJiWfU077229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:44:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6UJfktY008334 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:41:46 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410AA51A.5000308@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:44:26 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] houp sleeve/Interesting finds References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: > The variations hang differently in the pictures, which suggests a > range of constructions. Cynthia's version is a solution for a pleated-cap > look, whereas the one I described in my post is based on a non-pleated cap > -- two different looks, and different types of fullness/flare. Look at > some period images while you play with some big heavy pieces of fabric, > and you'll see how some of the differences can be achieved. And when you're looking at sleeves, note whether the particular medieval illustration you want to follow show a lot of lining or not; there's some variation. That's a strong clue to compare with whatever method you follow or invent. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent We're on the way to Wiggle Bay And our brains, are draining out our ears. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 15:58:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UJwMRM021437 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:58:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJvcYF020155 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:57:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJvbfT086858; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:57:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from thrednedlestrete.com (mail02.enterhost.com [69.93.13.234]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UJvXfT086778 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:57:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Lisa-list@thrednedlestrete.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:57:27 -0500 Message-Id: <200407301457.AA14286990@thrednedlestrete.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 From: "Lisa Sinervo" To: Historical Costume Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: frequent pregnancy and women X-Mailer: X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6UJvXfT086778 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Even if these books succeeded in making women meek and mild by day, a few women seem to have vented at night. There are several references and one woodcut in the 17th century of the "curtain lecture". Men getting an earful at night once the curtains are drawn. Bancroft, John, d. 1696. Henry the Second, King of England, with the death of Rosamond a tragedy, acted at the Theatre-Royal, by Their Majesties servants. “Now tell me, Gallants, wou'd you lead your Life With such a Mistress, or with such a Wife? If One must be your Choice, which d'ye approve, The Curtain-Lecture, or the Curtain-Love?” Buckler, Edward, 1610-1706. Title: A buckler against the fear of death; or, Pious and profitable observations, meditations, and consolations: by E.B. “The dy[...]ng woman, when this speech was done, After a grone or two made this replie, Doth such a curtain-lecture suit with one That everie houre doth look when she should die?” Price, John, 1625?-1691. Title: The mystery and method of His Majesty's happy restauration laid open to publick view by John Price. “It is not improbable neither, that he had been in the Night, quickned with a Curtain-Lecture of Damnation; a Text that his Lady oft Preac[...]ed upon to him, and sometimes he would complain of it, where he safely might.” Lisa Sinervo ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Cindy Abel" Reply-To: Historical Costume Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 13:14:18 -0500 >If women were mostly meek, mild, chattels, there would have been no need, >especially in the first two centuries of the printing press, for all the >books(written mostly by men)for all the books preaching for women to be >meek, mild, silent, chaste, pure, patient, modest(and modestly-dressed), >chattels. And all the sermons by most religious organizations preaching the >same. Would have been a waste of paper, time, and printer's ink--well, not >that it was, anyway. But all those "Advice to Women" books certainly sold. >And since men held the purse-strings legally at least, guess who probably >bought most of those books. > >Cindy Abel > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 16:10:00 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UK9xRM021537 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:10:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UK9QYF021084 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:09:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UK9MfT095861; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:09:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UK9JfT095807 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:09:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14432 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:14:08 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:14:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houppelande sleeves, was: Interesting finds In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730144433.01d430a8@mail.justinanimator.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Genie Barrett wrote: > >Completely different. Hard to do in ASCII. If you need me to send you a > >sketch via email, I will. > > Could you? Or maybe, if you have a scanner...? Will do privately. I have found that the "draw" program in Windows is useful for fast sketches. > >The visible horizontal swath of lining? Not in any period source that I > >know of, but on a lot of modern costumes! Just make a flare with the long > >part coming from under the arm, and you can have this problem too ;-) > > > Well, I'm looking at the Duc du Berry calender pictures, and those have no > noticeable gather/pleating at the sleeves. I do see the liner, but it's > only at the flare in the front, and you can see the gray--fur? Yes, that's how your lining should fall. Most of the sleeve caps in this ms appear to be unpleated, but look at the man in grey in April, and you'll see a pleated variation. Also, in January, a man in blue has pleats, but he's also wearing a sleeve that just falls in a long rectangle rather than being a full trumpet. You'll see some of those long dagged rectangles elsewhere too (I think one of the standing women in April, for instance). > In the May picture, one of the girls has a fringe down the back of her > sleeve, and that is the dress I'm looking to make, someday. Yep, I'd have a seam at that point. > Then I'll start asking questions about the collar/hangy things. :-) Some of them are decorations for the May procession. You don't normally see them on fashionable clothing. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 16:32:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UKWTRM021690 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:32:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UKVpYF022911 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:31:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UKVmfT013173; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:31:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.fuse.net (mail-out1.fuse.net [216.68.8.174]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UKVhfT013058 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:31:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jemarshall@fuse.net) Received: from gx4.fuse.net ([66.42.216.102]) by smtp1.fuse.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.03 201-2131-111-105-20040624) with ESMTP id <20040730203136.IOEE7486.smtp1.fuse.net@gx4.fuse.net> for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:31:36 -0400 Received: from netzero.fuse.net ([66.42.216.102]) by gx4.fuse.net (InterMail vG.1.00.00.00 201-2136-104-20040331) with ESMTP id <20040730203134.DMFB1052.gx4.fuse.net@netzero.fuse.net>; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:31:34 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20040730162201.00ac8e20@pop.fuse.net> X-Sender: jemarshall@pop.fuse.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:23:56 -0400 To: booraven22@yahoo.com, LtCmKieran@aol.com, h-costume@indra.com, Feenercrai@aol.com, MaddNancy@aol.com, JENNY SCHLOTTERBECK From: "J.E. Marshall" Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] So wrong it's right X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I came across this booth at a convention this week. Talk about so wrong it's right and so right it's wrong. http://iawareables.com/shopping/index.htm. Jennifer If you are squeamish, don't prod the beach rubble. Sappho _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 16:47:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UKlcRM021784 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:47:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UKl5YF024355 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:47:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UKl0fT024670; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:47:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UKkrfT024419 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:46:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.ae.5dfb34f9 (16335) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:46:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:46:43 EDT Subject: [h-cost] admittedly judicious with fabrics ::sigh:: To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO First, thank you so much for everyone's advice on how to make this stuff easier to deal with. I really appreciate it, because there were a couple of techniques that I had not heard of, and they will help me in the future with a number of fabrics. What I'm working with here is unfortunately not silk charmeuse, it's a synthetic. The warehouses that I get wholesale fabrics from can be a bit hit-or-miss in what they carry, and I picked this up (and a BUNCH of it, grumble) at a very reasonable price but that also can equal unknown fabric content. It appears from my burn test to be primarily or 100% polyester, which is okay with me because it's beautiful and polyester easy to care for and usually wears quite well. On the downside, it is slicker than snot on a doorknob, and therefore quite a challenge to put together correctly. And then I go and exacerbate the problem by cutting on the bias, heaven help me. There's no fabric that I enjoy working with more than silk, and I do it whenever I can. Unfortunately, there's sort of a ceiling to what I can spend on fabrics to put together offerings for eBay, because there tends to be a ceiling on what I can expect to get in return. I've used more expensive fabrics like silks and cotton velvets in the past for auction items, and the increase in bidding on items made with these fabrics has either been nonexistant, or has not been enough to cover the additional expense in the fabrics over what I would have paid for a less expensive alternative like a poly blend or rayon/acetate velvet. If I had my choice, I'd never work with anything but the best quality and most authentic fabrics. Fortunately, there are enough people who value it as much as I do who place custom orders, that I can get my "silk fix" every now and then, and then just be creative and have fun with the rest of it! -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 17:00:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UL0eRM021892 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:00:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UL03YF025342 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:00:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UKxbfT033938; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:59:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.187]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UKxCfT033644 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:59:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.34.86 with login) by smtp808.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 20:59:12 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730155928.01c5ebe8@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:00:05 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houppelande sleeves, was: Interesting finds In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730144433.01d430a8@mail.justinanimator.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > > > Then I'll start asking questions about the collar/hangy things. :-) > >Some of them are decorations for the May procession. You don't normally >see them on fashionable clothing. So...What is the one the woman is wearing in August? Genie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 17:11:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ULBERM021922 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:11:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UL9OYF026181 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:09:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UL9MfT041369; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:09:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UL9EfT041261 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:09:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14876 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:14:02 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:14:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houppelande sleeves, was: Interesting finds In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730155928.01c5ebe8@mail.justinanimator.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Genie Barrett wrote: > > > Then I'll start asking questions about the collar/hangy things. :-) > > > >Some of them are decorations for the May procession. You don't normally > >see them on fashionable clothing. > So...What is the one the woman is wearing in August? Hmm, I'd say that looks like a collar/hangy thing. Beats the hellouta me. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 17:28:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ULSORM022002 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:28:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULR5YF027885 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:27:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULR2fT054912; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:27:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULQtfT054849 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:26:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brujne@creighton.edu) Received: from cindyabel (cla53081.creighton.edu [147.134.201.2]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA27360 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:26:54 -0500 (CDT) From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] admittedly judicious with fabrics ::sigh:: Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:26:54 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The fully industrialized countries masses have been sold for a generation+ that synthetic fabrics are better and usually cheaper than real--okay synths usually iron up easier, granted, but I've been trying to get away from polyester or other petroleum-based fabrics for myself and the dollies I dress for a good ten years, simply because polyester doesn't breathe, holds stains like crazy, and is usually the devil to sew, especially for dolls. Give me a full cotton skirt and a loose blouse when the temps hit 90% with Great Plains humidity to match over a poly shorts and tank-top set anyday! And nice silk or a good blend isn't so bad when you are buying no more than a few yards. So most of customers buying historic or RenFaire stuff want the look for as little as possible--its cheaper and it washes, usually, after all. Cotton, silk, linen and rayon mean mucho ironing and who has the time and patience for that! Clothing has gone from made to last for the general public to pitch it fast after one season because you don't dare be caught dead in it. Wonder how present-day wear will be viewed by future historians. CIndy Abel _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 17:30:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ULU6RM022015 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:30:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULTXYF028087 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:29:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULTPfT056739; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:29:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULTKfT056683 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:29:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8612A48B for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:29:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p128.stmo2.socket.net [64.85.214.130]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id DA366D4B7 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:29:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:29:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT was: admittedly judicious with fabrics ::sigh:: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO -----Original Message----- On the downside, it is slicker than snot on a doorknob, ....... ~~~~~ First I'd like to say, EEEWWWW. And secondly I have always heard "slicker then spit on a doorknob" as snot is the original universal glue. :) De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 17:47:22 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ULlMRM022151 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:47:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULkhYF029816 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:46:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULjefT068578; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:45:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51104.mail.yahoo.com (web51104.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.146]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6ULiYfT067896 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:44:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040730214428.47685.qmail@web51104.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.246.144] by web51104.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:44:27 PDT Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <200407301457.AA14286990@thrednedlestrete.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] frequent pregnancy and women X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO We were discussing German women during the 1500's. Anne Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 17:51:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ULpERM022165 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:51:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULnRYF000439 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:49:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULnOfT071680; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:49:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net (smtp1.suscom.net [64.78.119.248]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULnJfU071506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:49:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from goofy1@suscom.net) Received: from localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4DD1D877A for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.suscom.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1 [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with SMTP id 04998-03 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from yourzpvq75jcr6 (ip244.97.78.64.susc.suscom.net [64.78.97.244]) by smtp1.suscom.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 550F4D878E for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <128c01c4767e$e6ef5d20$f4614e40@yourzpvq75jcr6> From: "Dianne & Greg Stucki" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200407291627.i6TGRAkE054063@sabre.goldsword.com> <4109237A.4020501@thibault.org> <6.1.0.6.0.20040730123101.01d47b78@mail.justinanimator.com> <410A8DBF.1050105@thibault.org><6.1.0.6.0.20040730143016.01c8ba00@mail.justinanimator.com> <410AA5F9.5090403@thibault.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] houp sleeve/Interesting finds Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:48:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new .250 at suscom.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id i6ULnJfU071506 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Here's a picture of me and husband in a less luxurious houp (This is the > Medieval Miscellanea A-line houp pattern, which I don't recommend) with > the half-circle sleeve cut. http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/fandc.jpg Hmmm..I have that pattern, and was thinking of trying it. What are the problems? Cynthia Virtue and/or > Cynthia du Pré Argent > > We're on the way to Wiggle Bay > And our brains, are draining out our ears. Boy, can I tell you have little ones. My house is over run by the Wiggles too! grin (it's a thousand times better than Barney or the Teletubbies though) Dianne _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 17:54:58 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ULswRM022174 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:54:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULsOYF001153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:54:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULsLfT075593; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:54:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ns3.linuxwebnet.com (ns3.linuxwebnet.com [216.133.76.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6ULsKfT075559 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:54:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from judymitch@oldwaylane.net) Received: (qmail 20688 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2004 22:30:32 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.249.87.132.dial1.washington2.level3.net (HELO oldwaylane.net) (4.249.87.132) by shada.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 22:30:32 -0000 Message-ID: <410AC27D.9020909@oldwaylane.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:49:49 -0400 From: Judy Mitchell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] question for bead workers X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, I'm trying to verify (or correct) something I heard a few years regarding jet beads. I was told that no one is making jet beads any more, because working the jet was causing some problem similar to Black Lung. Yet, I see companies such as Shipwreck Beads and Garden of Beadin' selling jet beads. Are these likely to be true jet, or some jet substitute? Or would my rumor only relate to faceting jet and tumbling or polishing the stuff is just fine? I have a friend lookin for jet that wants true jet (although faceting vs tumbled isn't important). Can anyone on the list who knows about beads set me straight please? Thanks! -Judy Mithcell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 17:55:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6ULtGRM022178 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:55:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULseYF001190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:54:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULsdfT075784; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:54:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts12.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.141]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULsafT075682 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:54:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.68.137.102]) by simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040730215354.OAHB1749.simmts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:53:54 -0400 Message-ID: <00ea01c4767f$8ea4b6a0$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:52:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Fw: Pregnancy in history X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I thought I should post here what I finally came up with, most of these you could argue that the women aren't pregnant at all, and most of these are religious iconography, but there are one or two good ones in the list. :-) Thanks to everyone for their suggestions Sheridan ******************************************************************* > Trying to find a nice cross section of pictures of pregnant (or possibly > pregnant), nursing women, and women with babies. Most of these are > religious, so beware the clothing, it may be fictional. Here's what I have > so far, hope there's something in here you can use. > > > MINIATURIST, English Amesbury Psalter 1240-50 The Virgin and child > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1200-250/08e_1200.jpg > > The Count of Méliacin by Girardin d'Amiensc. 1270- One of the ladies on the > far left looks like she could be pregnant, it looks like her gown is belted > under her belly... > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1251-300/05f_1250.jpg > > DADDI, Bernardo The Marriage of the Virgin 1336-40. Well she had *better* be > pregnant. :-) > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/d/daddi/marriage.jpg > > GIOTTO di Bondone -No. 11 Scenes from the Life of the Virgin: 5. Marriage of > the Virgin 1304-06. > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/giotto/padova/2virgin/mary05.jpg > > GIOTTO di Bondone -No. 12 Scenes from the Life of the Virgin: 6. Wedding > Procession 1304-06. The lady in red standing behind Mary, could be pregnant > as well: > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/giotto/padova/2virgin/mary062.jpg > > Same artist again, this time the flight into Egypt, Mary carrying Jesus in > some sort of belt: > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/giotto/padova/3christ/scenes_1/chris04.jpg > > Same artist, same subject, different painting 1310 : > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/giotto/assisi/lower/ceiling/06christ.jpg > > GIOVANNI DA MILANO,The Birth of the Virgin, 1365 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/g/giovanni/milano/birth.jpg > > LORENZETTI, Ambrogio, Suckling Madonna, c. 1330 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/lorenzet/ambrogio/3m_latte.jpg > > TINO DA CAMAINO, Charity, c. 1321 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/t/tino/charity1.jpg > > UNKNOWN MASTER, French, Virgo lactans,1335-40 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/yunk_fr/yunk_fr2/08virgo.jpg > > MASTER Bertram, Rest on the Flight to Egypt, panel from Grabow Altarpiece, > 1383 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/bertram/grabow3.jpg > > PISANO, Nino, Madonna del Latte, 1360s > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/p/pisano/nino/m_latte.jpg > > SERRA, Pedro, Madonna and Child with Angels Playing Music, 1390s > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/s/serra/pedro/mad_chil.jpg > > MINIATURIST, French , Book of Hours of Maréchal de Boucicaut, 1405-08 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1401-450/01f_1400.jpg > > EYCK, Jan van, Suckling Madonna Enthroned, c. 1436 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/e/eyck_van/jan/02page/23suckli.jpg > > EYCK, Jan van, The Ghent Altarpiece: Adoration of the Lamb (detail), 1425-29 > Two ladies in this picture look like they could be pregnant, both wear > higher waisted gowns than most of the other visible ladies. > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/e/eyck_van/jan/09ghent/1open3/l3adora6.jpg > > LIMBOURG brothers, Les trčs riches heures du Duc de Berry: December > (detail), 1412-16 > The lady in the centre could be pregnant, or could be slouching. :-) > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/limbourg/04avril.jpg > > Same artists and manuscript, the lady in black definitely looks pregnant: > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/limbourg/08aout.jpg > > Same again, lady in very bottom left corner: > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/limbourg/09septem.jpg > > WEYDEN, Rogier van der, Visitation, c. 1445 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/w/weyden/rogier/17other/3visitat.jpg > > MASTER of Flémalle, The Virgin and Child before a Firescreen, 1430 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/lippi/filippo/1450/5portrai.jpg > > Same artist and subject, 1410 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/flemalle/triptych/triptic2.jpg > > Book of hours of Maréchal de Boucicaut 1405-08 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1401-450/01f_1400.jpg > > DÜRER, Albrecht, Life of the Virgin: 8. The Visitation,1503 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/d/durer/2/12/5virgin/08_life.jpg > > MASTER M S, The Visitation, 1506 (Hungary) > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/ms/1visita.jpg > > Vicenzo Campi: Market, 1580's - woman kneading dough on the far left hand > side of the painting: > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk1.html > > Vicenzo Campi: The Fishmongers, 1580's - non-corseted dress, easy access for > breast-feeding: > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/wkclass/wk2.html > > Andrea del Sarto: Portrait of the Artist's Wife, 1513-1514- granted, the > style in Florence at this time was very high waisted, but she could be > pregnant: > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/florentine/flor5.html > > Benardino Licinio: Portrait of Arrigo Licinio and his Family (detail), 1535 > Venice -A mother with a babe in swaddling bands > http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/secondflor/secflor21.html > > Christ and the Adulteress, by Pieter Aertsen, 1559- The lady on the far left > http://www.lepg.org/market1.jpg > > 'Pearly Queen' 1595 > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1401-450/01f_1400.jpg > > This is what I have come up with so far, if you need any more I can keep > looking in-between Pennsic projects. :-) Sheridan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 18:29:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UMTiRM022363 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:29:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULK5YF027111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:20:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6ULK2fT049782; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:20:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.83]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6ULJvfT049710 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:19:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.34.86 with login) by smtp813.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 2004 21:19:56 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730162039.01d54810@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:20:52 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houppelande sleeves, was: Interesting finds In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.0.6.0.20040730155928.01c5ebe8@mail.justinanimator.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >Hmm, I'd say that looks like a collar/hangy thing. > >Beats the hellouta me. > >--Robin hehehe _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 18:30:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UMUHRM022381 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:30:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UMSSYF007030 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:28:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UMSNfT001836; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:28:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UMSJfT001745 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:28:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hbgd103@soton.ac.uk) Received: from modem-699.buffalo.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.66.187] helo=soton.ac.uk) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1BqfrJ-0005TI-Sw for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:28:14 +0100 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:33:17 +0100 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hat Picture Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Hilary Davidson To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <00a601c4766a$c9697880$2900bc3f@susyhp> Message-Id: <73912402-E278-11D8-B6FD-000A9567E116@soton.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Someday when I have a 'Come as what you want to be when you grow up' party, I am soooo there as Granny Weatherwax. Maybe the younger Lords and Ladies version, but still..... On Friday, July 30, 2004, at 08:19 pm, Susy wrote: > Sounds like fun! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shane & Sheridan" > To: "Historical Costume" > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 10:55 AM > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hat Picture > > >> Heh, thanks! >> >> Terry Prattchet is one of my favorite authors, witty, silly, fun and >> very >> observant of human nature. >> >> One of these days I would like to make a Conina the Barbarian costume, > just >> to say I did. Although, a Magrat outfit would likely suit my hair > better... >> :-) >> >> Sheridan >> >> From: "Susy" >> >>> totally of topic... >>> I absolutely LOVE your byline!!! >>> Susy >>> >>>> ****************************************************** >>>> On nights such as this, witches are abroad. >>>> >>>> Well, not actually abroad. They don't like the food >>>> and you can't trust the water and the shamans >>>> always hog the deckchairs. >>>> >>>> Terry Pratchett >> >>> h-costume mailing list >>> h-costume@mail.indra.com >>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 18:36:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UMawRM022414 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:36:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UMaHYF008693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:36:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UMaDfT008128; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:36:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m27.mx.aol.com (imo-m27.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.8]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UMaBfT008039 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:36:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com) Received: from Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.a0.12b00334 (3980) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:36:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffsewsstuff@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:36:01 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT was: admittedly judicious with fabrics ::sigh:: To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/30/04 4:29:56 PM Central Daylight Time, otsisto@socket.net writes: First I'd like to say, EEEWWWW. And secondly I have always heard "slicker then spit on a doorknob" as snot is the original universal glue. :) De ROFL - I'm not even going there! -Tiffany Non vestimentum virum ornat, sed vir vestimentum. ******************************* Reflections*of*Worth http://stores.ebay.com/Reflections-of-Worth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 18:44:48 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UMimRM022455 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:44:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UMi7YF010282 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:44:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UMi4fT014312; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:44:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UMhwfU014231 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:44:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6UMfFtY009279 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:41:15 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410ACF2B.7020202@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:43:55 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Houppelande sleeves, was: Interesting finds References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: >>>>Then I'll start asking questions about the collar/hangy things. :-) >>> >>>Some of them are decorations for the May procession. You don't normally >>>see them on fashionable clothing. >> >>So...What is the one the woman is wearing in August? > > > Hmm, I'd say that looks like a collar/hangy thing. For those following along, this site has a quick summary and the main illustrations: http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/heures.html Do you mean the gold hanging stuff on the lady in blue? The two main theories are 1: shaped bells and 2: gold "mounts" or leaf shapes that don't make noise. I could go either way. Here is a roughly contemporary illustration that shows something draped around (like the red beads or bells in one of the other TRH illustrations): http://www.nga.gov/collection/gallery/gg39/gg39-31.0.html Dianne wrote: >>Here's a picture of me and husband in a less luxurious houp (This is the >>> Medieval Miscellanea A-line houp pattern, which I don't recommend) with >>> the half-circle sleeve cut. http://www.virtue.to/articles/images/fandc.jpg > Hmmm..I have that pattern, and was thinking of trying it. What are the > problems? It is an entirely modern-pattern type solution. I've only done the women's angel sleeved version, not the other six types on the envelope. I believe it is insufficiently voluminous (even for merchant houp/gowns which weren't as full as pictured for nobility) even if you don't think my curved shoulder seam idea has merit. The upper sleeves are way too tight for wearing, much less matching the pictures. The bag sleeves are a scandal. The angel sleeves should at the least be rotated as Robin suggests with the seam (and long part) at the back of the arm like a suit coat sleeve. -- Cynthia Virtue (mom of twin toddlers) We're on the way to Wiggle Bay And our brains, are draining out our ears. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 19:04:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UN4YRM022529 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:04:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UN3uYF014479 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:03:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UN3qfT029881; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:03:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m25.mx.aol.com (imo-m25.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UN3lfT029734 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:03:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.55.5d744f2c (4004) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:03:38 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <55.5d744f2c.2e3c2dc9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:03:37 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] I love a kilt X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO So I finished my kilt and wore it to the Convention with a Scottish theme I was helping to organize. What a fantastic garment! Totally butch with all the leather and buckles and muskrat fur [my sporran]. My tartan [Hunter Ancient] has a huge sett [one repeat of the even plaid] at 13" so even though I only did 21 pleats [the sett determines the depth of the pleats] I had over 9 yards around my waist. I wore nothing underneath because only a hurricane could have blown up enough fabric to upholster a couch with! And it is a WARM garment to be sure. No, they aren't chilly in the Highlands. I did it all by hand but for the top binding. There's no other way to do it....correctly. Made 2 of them [I made one for my friend....the "test" kilt] in about 2 and a half weeks. You get better and faster the more you do it. Anyway....the kilt is a fantastic thing. All you with a tartan [or not] get one....make one....wear one! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 19:11:49 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UNBnRM022551 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:11:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UN9kYF015606 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:09:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UN9ifT033886; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:09:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (simmts6.bellnexxia.net [206.47.199.164]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UN8ffT033136 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:08:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from shaneandsheridan@sympatico.ca) Received: from sherry ([67.68.137.102]) by simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.10 201-253-122-130-110-20040306) with SMTP id <20040730230831.RVCL10364.simmts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@sherry> for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:08:31 -0400 Message-ID: <010901c47689$eb485600$cb6afea9@sherry> From: "Shane & Sheridan" To: "Historical Costume" References: <73912402-E278-11D8-B6FD-000A9567E116@soton.ac.uk> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Terry Prattchet (was Hat Picture) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:06:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oooh! What about the Opera gown Granny wore in 'Masquerade'? I see a very luxurious Victorian bustle gown... Sheridan (who needs someplace to wear this kind of thing...) Hilary wrote: > Someday when I have a 'Come as what you want to be when you grow up' > party, I am soooo there as Granny Weatherwax. Maybe the younger Lords > and Ladies version, but still..... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Shane & Sheridan" > > To: "Historical Costume" > > Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 10:55 AM > > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Hat Picture > > > > > >> Heh, thanks! > >> > >> Terry Prattchet is one of my favorite authors, witty, silly, fun and > >> very > >> observant of human nature. > >> > >> One of these days I would like to make a Conina the Barbarian costume, > > just > >> to say I did. Although, a Magrat outfit would likely suit my hair > > better... > >> :-) > >> > >> Sheridan > >> > >> From: "Susy" > >> > >>> totally of topic... > >>> I absolutely LOVE your byline!!! > >>> Susy > >>> > >>>> ****************************************************** > >>>> On nights such as this, witches are abroad. > >>>> > >>>> Well, not actually abroad. They don't like the food > >>>> and you can't trust the water and the shamans > >>>> always hog the deckchairs. > >>>> > >>>> Terry Pratchett > >> > >>> h-costume mailing list > >>> h-costume@mail.indra.com > >>> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> h-costume mailing list > >> h-costume@mail.indra.com > >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 19:14:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UNE6RM022572 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:14:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNCNYF016124 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:12:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNCJfT035794; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:12:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNCHfT035682 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:12:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Theflamingneedle@aol.com) Received: from Theflamingneedle@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.6d.2f9b00d1 (3980) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:12:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Theflamingneedle@aol.com Message-ID: <6d.2f9b00d1.2e3c2fc7@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:12:07 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] I love a kilt To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/30/04 6:04:32 PM Central Daylight Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: I wore nothing underneath because only a hurricane could have blown up enough fabric to upholster a couch with! Although I totally agree that wind is unlikely to displace a kilt, a well-placed tree branch or table leg can do what the wind can't by unexpectedly dumping a man on his hiney in such a way that fabric flies. I've gotten to know quite a few men far better than I had EVER intended to in this manner. And I don't even have mirrors on the toes of my shoes ::sigh::. Now, if you choose to do the regimental thing regardless, I won't be surprised; it's only natural (pardon the pun). MANY a man at our faire has insisted that he's just fine boxerless, until he learns the hard and embarrassing way LOL. But don't say you weren't warned! Welcome to the Dark Side. **Tiff** "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 19:16:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UNG4RM022598 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:16:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNFYYF016792 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:15:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNFWfT038114; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:15:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m14.mx.aol.com (imo-m14.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.204]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNFVfT038033 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:15:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.4.) id 6.15c.3a8aa36e (24895) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:15:21 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: <15c.3a8aa36e.2e3c3089@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:15:21 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] I love a kilt To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6014 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/30/2004 7:12:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Theflamingneedle@aol.com writes: > And I > don't even have mirrors on the toes of my shoes ::sigh::. > > Try carrying a leaf blower..... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 19:18:59 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UNIxRM022644 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:18:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNISYF017441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:18:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNIRfT040089; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:18:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m19.mx.aol.com (imo-m19.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNINfT039988 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:18:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Theflamingneedle@aol.com) Received: from Theflamingneedle@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.1d2.274d305e (3980) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:18:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Theflamingneedle@aol.com Message-ID: <1d2.274d305e.2e3c3134@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:18:12 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] I love a kilt To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 7/30/04 6:15:57 PM Central Daylight Time, AlbertCat@aol.com writes: Try carrying a leaf blower..... ::Trying to envision a way to make a nice leather baldric that will hold a leaf blower conveniently at my back when I'm not using it, yet will coordinate it with my court gowns ... :: Hmm. Nothing's coming to mind, here, but I'll keep working on it. There has to be some way to usefully employ the empty pocket of space under a hoop skirt, other than flasks. **Tiff** "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 19:19:53 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UNJrRM022653 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:19:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNJHYF017705 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:19:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNJFfT040677; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:19:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UNJ9fT040587 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:19:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-21507); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:19:07 -0700 Received: from unknown (HELO wm1.mc.surewest.net) (66.60.128.58) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:19:07 -0700 Received: from 205.225.207.97 (SquirrelMail authenticated user joanmj@surewest.net) by webmail.surewest.net with HTTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39372.205.225.207.97.1091229547.squirrel@webmail.surewest.net> In-Reply-To: <55.5d744f2c.2e3c2dc9@aol.com> References: <55.5d744f2c.2e3c2dc9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] I love a kilt From: joanmj@surewest.net To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > So I finished my kilt and wore it to the Convention with a Scottish theme > I > was helping to organize. What a fantastic garment! Totally butch with all > the > leather and buckles and muskrat fur [my sporran]. My tartan [Hunter > Ancient] > has a huge sett [one repeat of the even plaid] at 13" so even though I > only did > 21 pleats [the sett determines the depth of the pleats] I had over 9 yards > around my waist. I wore nothing underneath because only a hurricane could > have > blown up enough fabric to upholster a couch with! And it is a WARM garment > to be > sure. No, they aren't chilly in the Highlands. > > I did it all by hand but for the top binding. There's no other way to do > it....correctly. Made 2 of them [I made one for my friend....the "test" > kilt] in > about 2 and a half weeks. You get better and faster the more you do it. > > Anyway....the kilt is a fantastic thing. All you with a tartan [or not] > get > one....make one....wear one! I love the way men look in proper kilts--dashing and sexy. I just wish we could convince the fashion world that it's a great look. Although I have seen a few men in the new "utili-kilt". Joan Jurancich Sacramento, CA _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 19:22:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UNMXRM022680 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:22:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNKjYF018151 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:20:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNKifT041753; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:20:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UNKgfT041673 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:20:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/Oho6t9LbvQoBMwjVdBkmHw4= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J3TUQR63; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:20:27 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:31:12 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] So wrong it's right Message-ID: <20040730.161952.1604.1.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-8,10-25 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Good cause, creepy products. I mean, who would want to go to an office job with a tie sporting a TB virus?!? nonononononono..... Arlys On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:23:56 -0400 "J.E. Marshall" writes: > I came across this booth at a convention this week. Talk about so > wrong > it's right and so right it's wrong. > > http://iawareables.com/shopping/index.htm. > > Jennifer > > If you are squeamish, don't prod the beach rubble. > Sappho > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 19:52:07 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UNq7RM022818 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:52:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNpYYF023528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:51:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNpVfT061628; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:51:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNpUfT061603 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:51:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.171] (p11.3c04.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.171]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i6UNoou30660 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:50:50 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v609) In-Reply-To: <20040730.161952.1604.1.Cley@juno.com> References: <20040730.161952.1604.1.Cley@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] So wrong it's right Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:54:41 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.609) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It'd make a good gift for a biologist or a biochemist. On Jul 30, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Cynthia J Ley wrote: > Good cause, creepy products. > > I mean, who would want to go to an office job with a tie sporting a TB > virus?!? > > nonononononono..... > > Arlys > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:23:56 -0400 "J.E. Marshall" > > writes: >> I came across this booth at a convention this week. Talk about so >> wrong >> it's right and so right it's wrong. >> >> http://iawareables.com/shopping/index.htm. >> >> Jennifer >> >> If you are squeamish, don't prod the beach rubble. >> Sappho >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 19:52:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6UNqtRM022821 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:52:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNqKYF023704 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:52:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6UNqJfT062172; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:52:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6UNq7fT062002 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:52:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKUiOZTU6Ir/OuNBqbick/7VGgu7OQ09Ge4= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id J3TWGM3A; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:50:58 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:27:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] question for bead workers Message-ID: <20040730.165039.1604.3.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-8,10-34 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Fire Mountain Gems sells synthetic jet. Pastiche has some real jet. Try writing them at . I will warn you--a strand of the stuff is several hundred dollars. They had a beautiful strand of large tumbled beads at July Coronation--truly wonderful and waaay past my pocketbook. Arlys On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:49:49 -0400 Judy Mitchell writes: > Hi, > I'm trying to verify (or correct) something I heard a few years > regarding jet beads. I was told that no one is making jet beads any > more, because working the jet was causing some problem similar to > Black > Lung. Yet, I see companies such as Shipwreck Beads and Garden of > Beadin' > selling jet beads. Are these likely to be true jet, or some jet > substitute? Or would my rumor only relate to faceting jet and > tumbling > or polishing the stuff is just fine? > > I have a friend lookin for jet that wants true jet (although > faceting > vs tumbled isn't important). Can anyone on the list who knows about > beads set me straight please? > > Thanks! > -Judy Mithcell > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 20:02:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V027RM022833 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:02:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V012YF024333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:01:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V010fT067045; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:01:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V00QfT066707 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:00:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16034 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:05:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:05:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] question for bead workers In-Reply-To: <20040730.165039.1604.3.Cley@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Fri, 30 Jul 2004, Cynthia J Ley wrote: > Fire Mountain Gems sells synthetic jet. Pastiche has some real jet. > Try writing them at . > > I will warn you--a strand of the stuff is several hundred dollars. > They had a beautiful strand of large tumbled beads at July > Coronation--truly wonderful and waaay past my pocketbook. I got something labeled jet, for a friend, a couple of years ago from Beadsales (online), at a very reasonable price (under $10). It's true that retail prices on beads tend to be jacked up very high, but that seems like more than the expected difference. The people at Beadsales are very helpful and may be able to tell you more about their jet. Be aware that "jet" is also used as a descriptive color term for glass beads and other non-stone beads, so you have to make sure you're ordering from a place that is selling semiprecious gemstones, and that you're looking in that part of the catalog. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 20:22:03 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V0M3RM022909 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:22:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V0K9YF026089 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:20:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V0K6fT077665; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:20:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V0K1fU077603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:20:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i6V0HDtY009979 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:17:13 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410AE5AA.6050904@thibault.org> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:19:54 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] question for bead workers References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: > Be aware that "jet" is also used as a descriptive color term for glass > beads and other non-stone beads, so you have to make sure you're ordering > from a place that is selling semiprecious gemstones, and that you're > looking in that part of the catalog. This may be of help, from Merriam-Webster: 1 : a compact velvet-black coal that takes a good polish and is often used for jewelry I expect one could find hardness charts and scratch test results for it online somewhere, to see if what one finds is really jet and not black glass. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent We're on the way to Wiggle Bay And our brains, are draining out our ears. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 20:52:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V0qGRM023056 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:52:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V0oNYF027987 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:50:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V0oBfT092808; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:50:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51105.mail.yahoo.com (web51105.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.147]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6V0o9fT092721 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:50:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040731005003.74574.qmail@web51105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.246.144] by web51105.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:50:03 PDT Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 17:50:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Subject: Re: [h-cost] I love a kilt To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <1d2.274d305e.2e3c3134@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ::Trying to envision a way to make a nice leather baldric that will hold a leaf blower conveniently at my back when I'm not using it, yet will coordinate it with my court gowns ... :: **Tiff** All you have to do is sit in front/facing him. Men NEVER cross/close their legs when sitting. I've gone to the Scottish festivals for many, many years. I've seen lots of nice things, and lots of not so nice thing.....but youz takes youz chances. I love a man in a kilt. I do have quite a lovely pic if anyone is interested of a young man in a kilt with a breeze blowing. Just let me know. Cheri Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 21:41:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V1fIRM023225 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:41:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V1eaYF001965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:40:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V1eWfT019574; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:40:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp1.mc.surewest.net (smtp1.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.50]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6V1eTfT019539 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:40:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-13957); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:37:52 -0700 Received: from unknown (66.205.128.60) by smtp1.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:37:52 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20040730183933.0119cdb0@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:40:18 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wool and silk--semi OT In-Reply-To: <029c01c47663$1f113dc0$0400a8c0@compaqub> References: <410A5949.3030504@in-tch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp1 SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=66.205.128.60 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 01:29 PM 7/30/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Would wool have been spun with silk in the 15thC or earlier? I keep meaning >to look that up, but what little I've found so far isn't clear on whether >silk was woven with wool (e.g. silk warp, wool weft) or spun with wool. My >instincts say they wouldn't have spun it, but I hope they did! > >-E, preparing to dive feet-first into weaving, and get in as far over her >head as possible as fast as possible Silk would have been woven with wool, but not spun as a mixture. Joan Jurancich spinner & weaver _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 22:05:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V25LRM023314 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:05:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V23DYF003482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:03:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V23BfT030759; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:03:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grunt14.ihug.co.nz (grunt14.ihug.co.nz [203.109.254.61]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V238fT030640 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:03:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from p74-nas15.akl.ihug.co.nz (michaela) [203.173.206.202] by grunt14.ihug.co.nz with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BqjD4-0004bS-00; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:02:54 +1200 Message-ID: <00a001c476a2$7d480d30$caceadcb@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <73912402-E278-11D8-B6FD-000A9567E116@soton.ac.uk> <010901c47689$eb485600$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost]Terry Prattchet (was Hat Picture) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:02:50 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have the basis of an Alice Band costume: http://costumes.glittersweet.com/historical/bella.htm The trim comes off and the over skirt can be let down. Though with a bit of hair re-arranging it could would for Miss Susan from Thief of Time;) I'd love to make Granny's gown from Witches Abroad when she's at the ball for Ella... or maybe Lily's gown from that part.... But *the* costume, and I started it, but it's on hold.. maybe next year.. is Magrat in Inci's spiked armour;) When she confronts the Elf Queen, all the mud and ripped fabric stage. Actually adda few spikes, remove a few layers and I could use: http://costumes.glittersweet.com/movies/galadriel.htm I do have a place to wear that one.. hmmmm.... could be a more fun costume than the one planned.... michaela http://glittersweet.com PTerry fan for more than 15 years now... eeek! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 22:11:32 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V2BWRM023369 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:11:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V29iYF003974 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:09:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V29gfT034123; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:09:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V29ffT034054 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:09:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004073102093601300bh1kqe>; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:09:36 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:08:34 -0400 From: Lauren Walker To: h-costume Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] reeled silk and silk and wool blends (2 threads) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO First, I must mention my favorite source for silk threads: http://www.aurorasilk.com/ Aurora is the work of Cheryl Kolander, who uses natural dyes to color both spun and reeled silk threads in several weights. She is also instrumental in promoting logwood culture in the Dominican Republic through the Logwood Project, which brings needed cash and development projects (clean water, etc.) to indigenous people in the DR -- and by the way, increases the amount of available logwood for natural-dyers! (Logwood makes blues and purples and adds the right cast to blacks.) If you're interested in using only colors that would have been attainable with natural dyes, these silks are a great place to start -- it is true that she uses both New World and Old World dyestuffs, so you might need to ask what's in your color if you're seeking purity. For my purposes, usually, it is enough that the colors have the depth and richness of natural dyes; silk can get really glaring with the more modern ones because it takes color so well. It is true that the dyed threads are expensive, but the thread is so amazingly fine and light that an ounce of it sews a great many garments -- I'm nowhere near using up my first small skein of black, although I've made and remade several garments with it (and all flat-fell seams, too, so lots of stitching!) The site is also full of neat information on silks, sericulture, dyeing, and dyestuffs. Interestingly, she seems to say that most commercially available silk fabrics are made from reeled, not spun, threads, but I may be misreading. Anyway her site features silk fabrics made in processes that don't require killing the silkworms -- "Peace" and "vegetarian" silks, and tussahs and wild silks, where the cocoons are collected after the moths have hatched and left them. As for whether silk and wool would have been spun together in the middle ages, it seems quite unlikely. Fibers tended to be spun where they were grown, and exported as threads, or further finished into fabrics before export; and the centers for wool production and silk production were different places. In addition, I'm told by spinners that combining fibers and spinning combined fibers is difficult and annoying -- the spinners here can correct me if I'm wrong on that, but my understanding is the different elasticities, fuzziness, and sizes make the same trouble in spinning that they do in warping with different kinds of thread later in the weaving. The vast majority of blended fabrics before the 20th century were made with threads of one fiber for warp and another for weft -- linsey-woolseys, jeans, fustians, and wool-silk poplins all work this way. Texture and pattern weaves might have, say, both silk and wool threads in the weft to make a pattern (overshots and cords of some types require some threads that match the warp and some that are different); but due to the different elasticities of the threads, it was unusual to have two different kinds of thread in the warp. As a weaver I can attest to the annoyances of weaving on a variegated warp -- the wool threads will stretch more than the silks, the mohairs will stretch more than the wools, and it all gets loopy and uneven in short order, at which point the stretchy ones start jamming in the reed and and the unstrechy ones start breaking. But that's a digression, sorry -- to address the original question, it was quite uncommon to spin silk and wool together in the middle ages. Lauren _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 22:46:21 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V2kLRM023500 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:46:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V2jdYF006719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:45:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V2jYfT052832; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:45:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V2jWfT052810 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:45:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m44.in-tch.com [216.166.191.44]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6V2jMY02095 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:45:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <410B08BE.70909@in-tch.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:49:34 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Wool and silk--semi OT References: <410A5949.3030504@in-tch.com> <029c01c47663$1f113dc0$0400a8c0@compaqub> In-Reply-To: <029c01c47663$1f113dc0$0400a8c0@compaqub> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't think so.... Someone else has put the reasons much better than I, but I quite agree with her logic. I've got a bunch of bumps of merino/silk blend for spinning projects, but I've picked up the impression as I learn to spin that the pre-spinning blend is more of a recent/modern fashion/technique. Additionally, the blend is only about 80/20 wool/silk--I'm guessing the silk is added as much for additional gleam to the merino, and perhaps a quirky bit of occasional difference in texture as anything. That said, I do hope to experiment with plying yarn for a holiday present for my sister, and using slightly different fibers for the different plies. I'd imagine that modern knitting practices are a lot more forgiving in what wierd things fiber wants to do. Of course, my brand-new issue of _Handwoven_ has some completely cool textiles that were specifically designed to make use of the different properties of different fibers! Obligatory Costume Content: the spinning for that particular project is actually losing its place in the queue to a pound and a half or so of some lovely, lovely dark grey/brown Romney, which is going to be naalbound socks, and 16th c. stockings and a flat cap, if there's enough left over. --sue E House wrote: > Would wool have been spun with silk in the 15thC or earlier? I keep meaning > to look that up, but what little I've found so far isn't clear on whether > silk was woven with wool (e.g. silk warp, wool weft) or spun with wool. My > instincts say they wouldn't have spun it, but I hope they did! > > -E, preparing to dive feet-first into weaving, and get in as far over her > head as possible as fast as possible > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 22:49:08 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V2n7RM023512 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:49:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V2mXYF006916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:48:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V2mXfT054319; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:48:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m20.mx.aol.com (imo-m20.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V2mVfT054273 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:48:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Widowweeds@cs.com) Received: from Widowweeds@cs.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.24.5c664726 (16035) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:48:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tlininn (mattdrury.net [68.142.30.226]) by air-id10.mx.aol.com (v101.17) with ESMTP id MAILINID102-3ea3410b087399; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:48:19 -0400 Message-ID: <001d01c476a8$d5b579c0$6401a8c0@tlininn> From: "Widow Weeds" To: "Historical Costume" References: <1d2.274d305e.2e3c3134@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] I love a kilt Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:48:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-AOL-IP: 68.142.30.226 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > to be some way to usefully employ the empty pocket of space under a hoop > skirt, other than flasks. I drew up plans for an Elizabethan dress made out of rip-stop nylon, with inflatable hoops, for safety in the lakey wilds of Florida. When I have a few spare tens of hours, I should really make it. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 22:55:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V2tFRM023521 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:55:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V2seYF007628 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:54:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V2scfT057284; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:54:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail03.powweb.com (mail03.powweb.com [66.152.97.36]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V2sbfT057223 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:54:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from megan@benchite.com) Received: from megan2 (pcp06952326pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [69.140.8.214]) by mail03.powweb.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD46315C56 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:59:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Megan M." To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] So wrong it's right Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:54:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Thread-Index: AcR2kOv/xGKBoBjQQea/y8sBmTHZlwAGLP1Q Message-Id: <20040731025942.BD46315C56@mail03.powweb.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think the one with neurons on it could be appropriate for any business meeting. -Megan -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 7:55 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] So wrong it's right It'd make a good gift for a biologist or a biochemist. On Jul 30, 2004, at 3:31 PM, Cynthia J Ley wrote: > Good cause, creepy products. > > I mean, who would want to go to an office job with a tie sporting a TB > virus?!? > > nonononononono..... > > Arlys > > On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:23:56 -0400 "J.E. Marshall" > > writes: >> I came across this booth at a convention this week. Talk about so >> wrong >> it's right and so right it's wrong. >> >> http://iawareables.com/shopping/index.htm. >> >> Jennifer >> >> If you are squeamish, don't prod the beach rubble. >> Sappho >> _______________________________________________ >> h-costume mailing list >> h-costume@mail.indra.com >> http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 23:04:45 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V34iRM023585 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:04:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V342YF008497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:04:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V341fT062071; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:04:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.reddawn.net (rrcs-west-67-52-227-118.biz.rr.com [67.52.227.118]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V33xfT061995 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:03:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from reddawn.net (js.reddawn.net [10.0.0.3]) by mail.reddawn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86EC4264B for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:28:27 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <410B0C2A.4060600@reddawn.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:04:10 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.5b) Gecko/20030827 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] A History of the Clothing of Catholic Nuns X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There was discussion on this topic a couple of months back, and I see that the book has been remaindered and is now for sale at a discount. http://www.edwardrhamilton.com/titles/3/2/1/3210251.html Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 23:12:41 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V3CfRM023618 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:12:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3AoYF009024 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:10:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3AofT065657; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:10:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (mail.compassnet.com.au [203.26.180.18]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3AifU065518 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:10:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendar@compassnet.com.au) Received: from glendaii ([203.26.180.163]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/linuxconf) with SMTP id i6V3GE16028900 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:16:15 +1000 Message-ID: <007501c476ac$1bf7e5a0$eaf4fea9@glendaii> From: "Glenda Robinson" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040730.161952.1604.1.Cley@juno.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] So wrong it's right Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:11:22 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My husband goes to his office job with a Black Plague tie. It's his favourite tie by far - his boss won't let him wear his Mickey Mouse or Hagar the Horrible ties any more - apparently middle managers are supposed to present a 'sensible image', but the plague is a very nice pattern, and the boss is none the wiser! His brother now wants an anthrax tie to wear to his attorney job in the US with a worldwide household chemical/personal care products manufacturer. But then again, us Australians have an ODD sense of humour. Glenda. ----- Original Message ----- > Good cause, creepy products. > > I mean, who would want to go to an office job with a tie sporting a TB > virus?!? > > nonononononono..... > > Arlys > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 23:17:04 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V3H3RM023635 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:17:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3F6YF009262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:15:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3F5fT067884; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:15:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3F3fU067871 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:15:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6V3FlCq026801 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:15:47 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:21:34 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407302321.34614.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Friday 30 July 2004 2:56 am, Lauren Walker wrote: > Of course, just to dampen the blanket, there is much whingeing that modern > hemp fabric does not in any way approximate historic hemp, too, being > processed to make it softer than was possible. But I always think with the > bast fibers that we forget how long they lasted -- and were re-used. Maybe > NEW hemp is much softer than medieval NEW hemp, but as hemp that had been > worn for a couple of years? I think it would pass, depending on the > pickiness of your standards. Strictly speaking, my standards would require *wool* diamond twill, but that's even harder to find and more expensive. :-) -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 23:22:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V3MORM023696 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:22:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3KdYF009688 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:20:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3KcfT070689; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:20:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3KYfT070503 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:20:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.146.155]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6V3KJMG015683 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:20:19 +1000 Message-ID: <006001c476ad$3fe4de40$9b92d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:22:59 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Carlson" To: Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:41 PM Subject: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy Most families in this data set had a number of children, with a few years > between them. > > This also includes couples who are infertile, women dying in childbirth and > so on. Marc Not to mention husbands who may have travelled and couples who strictly followed the Church's policy on times of the year at which sex was banned (e.g. Sundays, Fridays, Lent, while the woman is menstruating...). The statement that 'women belonged to men' seems to imply that women could never refuse sex with their husbands. While it is true that sex without consent was not (to my knowledge) illegal within the confines of a marriage, simply because a woman does not have a legal right to refuse to have sex with her husband doesn't mean he necessarily ignored it when she said no. That legal right possibly reflected social norms that said 'you should be having sex with your husband and reproducing' meaning that a refusal may not necessarily be a common occurrence, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen at all. Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 23:30:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V3UhRM023724 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:30:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3SsYF010437 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:28:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3SrfT074861; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:28:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3SnfT074828 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:28:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.146.155]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i6V3Sjv4016187 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:28:45 +1000 Message-ID: <006801c476ae$6d79c360$9b92d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040729001122.76966.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:26:37 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cheri" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:11 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Help > Simplicity has one #8881 Elizabethan costume collection that is a good place to start on a budget. > Cheri/Anne I've used Simplicity 8881 repeatedly as a base for my Tudor bodices. To get the right look what you need to do is start from the skin out make a smock/chemise/shift (these are all names for the same garment most people use them interchangeably) then a corset, free online patterns for both of these can be found at http://costume.dm.net/ The smock is relatively easy to make as it's all straight lines and it's not fitted, I make the sleeves straight rather than tapered and I leave the underarm gussets as a square rather than cutting them in half and then sewing them back together but that's up to you to decide. For the corset I'd suggest using Drea's (the website above) pattern as a base (making it with shoulder straps and waist tabs is much more comfortable than without) but putting in some underarm seams as I found after losing weight I have to put in a seam to make it fit. front lacing makes it easier to dress without a maid, but it has to be completely closed or it doesn't look right, therefore if you think you're going to gain or lose any weight the easiest way is to have lacing at the back that can be adjusted (just leave the back lacing in place until you need to change it) and get in and out of the corset through the front lacing. For boning the cheapest and easiest boning material I know of is cable ties this website has a comparison of the most popular boning materials http://www.modehistorique.com/elizabethan/boningtypes.html Once you've got a well fitted smock and corset you can use the Simplicity pattern but to get rid of the bust curves (because once you have your corset on your bust is squished flat) you need to tape the centre front and side front pieces together so they make one flat piece of paper with no curves over the bust (start just pining the pieces of paper together then once they are in the right place tape it together. (your pattern should end up looking like this http://www.vertetsable.com/images/drafting10.gif) Then cut that pattern out of cheap fabric to check if it fits (you'll need a helper with the fitting preferably someone who knows the basics of how to sew). Once the mock up fits you can either use it to line your real bodice or keep it as your pattern for your next bodice, also you will probably want to make the point at the centre front of the waist a bit shorter, as this really long point can be uncomfortable and it's only fashionable from about 1590 on. You can also use the sleeve pattern as a base for most of the sleeve variations you can find in a portrait. however I'd suggest making your sleeves detachable rather than sewn in this way you only need to buy a small amount of a really pretty (expensive) fabric to dress up your outfit and you can give it a new look by changing the sleeves and forepart. I nearly forgot, one more thing to note is the parts of the outfit that match, almost all of the period pictures I've seen have the sleeves matching the forepart (the decorative underskirt) and the over skirt matching the bodice in this pattern they have reversed this so that the forepart matches the bodice. About as clear as mud right? If I'm not clear in any of my directions let me know and I'll try to explain it differently. Elizabeth _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 23:42:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V3g7RM023770 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:42:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3fUYF011676 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:41:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3fSfT082662; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:41:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51109.mail.yahoo.com (web51109.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.130]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6V3fQfT082603 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:41:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040731034117.46123.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.246.144] by web51109.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:41:17 PDT Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 20:41:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <006801c476ae$6d79c360$9b92d6cb@ewalpole> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO About as clear as mud right? If I'm not clear in any of my directions let me know and I'll try to explain it differently. Elizabeth You explained it beautifully. I could have never done that. I can show, but not put into words. That is just what I did, except I made my own corset pattern, It turned out well. I had some really thin plywood left over from making one of those Victorian doll houses and I had Brian make me a busk from that. Works beautifully, so I had him make me 3 more. You never know when you'll need four corsets. I can't remember the nice lady's name who was asking for the info, but I'm sure she is reading your e-mail and you've helped greatly. Anne/Cheri Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Jul 30 23:48:38 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V3mcRM023817 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:48:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3m2YF012389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:48:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3lxfT086503; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:48:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V3lvfU086450 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 21:47:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mikes@dandy.net) Received: from dandy.net (acty5038.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.250.38]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id i6V3lR6o023273 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:47:44 -0400 Message-ID: <410B1639.6090708@dandy.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:47:05 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] commedia del'arte costumes References: <003501c4726d$9d970b60$547c0f04@brandyscomp> In-Reply-To: <003501c4726d$9d970b60$547c0f04@brandyscomp> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi. Illustrations of Commedia costumes can be found in the works of Jacques Callot, a well known artist of the early 17th Cent. One book that has these illos is Jacques Callot by Edwin De T. Bechtel 1955 George Braziller Press (no ISBN) but any respectable collection of his engravings should have those pictures. There are 24 engravings in the series, with two characters per engraving (as well as another series of three Punchinellos from another date). The originals appear to be in the Bibliotheque Nationale in the Cabinet des Estampes. If you send me a private note, I can try and scan the images (I haven't had good luck recently, though) for you to send to your associate. Cheers, Mike T. > > >>I just received an email from a high school teacher who is looking for >>images/resources for commedia del'arte costumes. Any suggestions on any >>sources I could recommend. >> >>Thx, >> >>Lisa Sinervo >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>h-costume mailing list >>h-costume@mail.indra.com >>http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 01:11:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V5BERM024109 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:11:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V5ATYF017354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:10:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V5AHfT028876; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:10:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay12-f11.bay12.hotmail.com [64.4.35.11]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V5AEfT028827 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:10:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wishingonasta60@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 30 Jul 2004 22:10:08 -0700 Received: from 146.126.51.51 by by12fd.bay12.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:10:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [146.126.51.51] X-Originating-Email: [wishingonasta60@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wishingonasta60@hotmail.com From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:10:08 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2004 05:10:08.0711 (UTC) FILETIME=[A62CF570:01C476BC] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My recommendation for an Early English Tudor gown is Costume Connection pattern http://www.patternsoftime.com/patterns/Costume_Conn/COS1603W.gif This is a very simple pattern that does not require a corset or stays. The pattern for the bodice pattern is two in pieces and is a close to Elizabeth's description of the ideal Tudor bodice. The pattern adapts is easy to cut, fit, change where you want seams and closing and work well with other companies sleeve patterns. When working in the kitchen I prefer working in a chemise or a tunic. On of my chemise is made out of green wool and is full length I use what is now Simplicity 5375. I have also have a blue linen tunic using on of the older "star wars" lady tunic patterns. Neither is nothing fancy that is no one has wanted to take my picture when I have them on. But they are easy to work in. Normally I do not help serve feast- I cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. One of the rare times I did help serve feast, I had on my black and gray Tudor gown made from the Costume Connections pattern long sleeve and and over skirt. It was quite an experience. I would not recommended making one of the fancier sleeves to work in.. ie -kitchen, clean up or troll. I have seen to many people destroy beauty pieces of work moving to fast or getting caught in something. My recommendations would be to make the sleeves detachable. The costume connection pattern does not come with documentation. But you should not have any problems finding any. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 04:14:36 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V8EXRM006564 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 04:14:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V7DmYF024668 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:13:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V7DdfT092758; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:13:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V7DcfT092690 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:13:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Theflamingneedle@aol.com) Received: from Theflamingneedle@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.19b.27b18291 (16930) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:13:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Theflamingneedle@aol.com Message-ID: <19b.27b18291.2e3ca097@aol.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:13:27 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT - a public service announcement X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Okay, normally I would not do this, but I am firmly convinced that it will affect whether or not I get into heaven if I don't warn as many people as possible about this. If you're planning to go see "The Village," DON'T. I won't say more specifically because I don't want to be a spoiler for those who ignore this warning and go anyways, but you will wish you'd listened to me. I've been looking forward to this movie for so long and was so excited to go see it, and ... blech. It ranks right up there with Blair Witch Project for pointlessness and unearned hype. **Tiff** "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 05:05:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6V95XRM024584 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:05:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V94pYF001034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:04:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V94hfT047311; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:04:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav13.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.117]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6V94ffT047248 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 03:04:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 01:58:26 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.80 by bay1-dav13.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:44:57 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.80] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: <016001c4751b$70d39de0$cb6afea9@sherry> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting finds Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:44:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2004 08:58:26.0975 (UTC) FILETIME=[8AFA2AF0:01C476DC] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Someplace I read of a myth that side saddle first off was a late Victorian thing and that the only time we hear of it medieval was with Adelicia who married that Henry who never smiled again. When was she? eBay V.C. Andrews Books!! Glove Making Book http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- > While perusing the galleries in a search for pregnant ladies, I found this > painting: > http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/lorenzet/ambrogio/governme/2effect3.jpg > What I find interesting is that the lady on the horse is not riding side > saddle, like most medieval fiction writers would have you beleive. :-) The > painting is dated 1338-40. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 09:14:30 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VDEURM025801 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:14:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VDDgYF015917 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:13:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VDDVfT071260; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:13:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay7-dav18.bay7.hotmail.com [64.4.10.122]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VDDSfT071188 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:13:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:13:21 -0700 Received: from 63.238.214.4 by bay7-dav18.bay7.hotmail.com with DAV; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:13:21 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [63.238.214.4] X-Originating-Email: [robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com] X-Sender: robinandkellydorman@hotmail.com From: "Kelly Dorman" To: Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:13:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2004 13:13:21.0704 (UTC) FILETIME=[27589A80:01C47700] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] jet beads X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id i6VDEURM025801 Status: RO >I have a friend looking for jet that wants true jet >(although faceting >vs tumbled isn't important). Can anyone on the list >who knows about >beads set me straight please? >Thanks! >-Judy Mithcell Here's a site with true jet beads for sale, at reasonable prices: http://www.mineralofthemonthclub.org/jet_beads.htm and here is a site with great information about jet itself: http://48.1911encyclopedia.org/J/JE/JET.htm and another: http://www.whitbyjet.net/history.html Depending on the era you're interested, in the "jet" beads may very well be black glass - this is almost always true of the black "jet" beaded trimmings on victorian and Edwardian era dresses. Hope this helps, Kelly Dorman www.backwardglances.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 09:31:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VDVGRM025909 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:31:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VDUZYF016934 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:30:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VDUPfT079296; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:30:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ns3.linuxwebnet.com (ns3.linuxwebnet.com [216.133.76.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6VDUNfT079266 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:30:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from judymitch@oldwaylane.net) Received: (qmail 10171 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2004 14:06:31 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.249.81.52.dial1.washington2.level3.net (HELO oldwaylane.net) (4.249.81.52) by shada.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 2004 14:06:31 -0000 Message-ID: <410B9DD4.50006@oldwaylane.net> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:25:40 -0400 From: Judy Mitchell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] jet beads References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kelly Dorman wrote: > Here's a site with true jet beads for sale, at reasonable prices: http://www.mineralofthemonthclub.org/jet_beads.htm I have seen that site. It does look interesting. They can't seriously mean they have beads that are 16" long, can they? I'm hoping that's a string length. > and here is a site with great information about jet itself: > http://48.1911encyclopedia.org/J/JE/JET.htm > fascinating, thanks. Huh, she had said something about amber being fossilized sap (which most people know), but I didn't realize that jet was sorta fossilized tree wood! She told me that, but I still thought it was more stone. i'll call them number and ask them about their prices. Just not clear if their prices are per individual bead ($15-20 per bead?) or per string of what length. Thanks, all! Still don't know if the original rumor is true, but it's good to know the real stuff can be found. -Judy Mitchell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 09:54:40 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VDseRM026024 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:54:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VDqnYF018310 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:52:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VDqgfT090178; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:52:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VDqefT090145 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 07:52:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20754 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:57:32 -0500 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:57:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] jet beads In-Reply-To: <410B9DD4.50006@oldwaylane.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Judy Mitchell wrote: > > Here's a site with true jet beads for sale, at reasonable prices: > http://www.mineralofthemonthclub.org/jet_beads.htm > > I have seen that site. It does look interesting. They can't > seriously mean they have beads that are 16" long, can they? I'm hoping > that's a string length. > ... > i'll call them number and ask them about their prices. Just not clear > if their prices are per individual bead ($15-20 per bead?) or per string > of what length. 16 inches is the standard length of a strand for beads. (Chips usually come in 36" strands.) The individual beads are usually sized in millimeters. So, in the chart at the bottom of the page, a 16-inch strand of 6mm round beads is $17 retail. (And that's a good price.) IME, a 16-inch strand of 4mm beads will have about 100 beads on it. A strand of 6mm beads will have about 68 beads. A strand of 8mm beads will have about 50 beads. This all varies slightly depending on the actual size of the beads in that particular lot. Here's the page for the jet beads on the site I mentioned before; they specify that their jet is coal-based. I've been happy with their service, and the owner, Rowan, is very responsive to questions. The selection of shapes is not as broad as the site above, but there are a few more shapes, and the prices are lower: http://beadsales.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=B&Category_Code=jet --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 10:03:28 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VE3SRM026067 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:03:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VE1YYF018926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:01:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VE1XfT094576; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:01:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ns3.linuxwebnet.com (ns3.linuxwebnet.com [216.133.76.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6VE1TfT094529 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 08:01:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from judymitch@oldwaylane.net) Received: (qmail 10935 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2004 14:37:40 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.249.81.52.dial1.washington2.level3.net (HELO oldwaylane.net) (4.249.81.52) by shada.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 2004 14:37:40 -0000 Message-ID: <410BA521.1030703@oldwaylane.net> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:56:49 -0400 From: Judy Mitchell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] jet beads References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: > 16 inches is the standard length of a strand for beads. (Chips usually > come in 36" strands.) The individual beads are usually sized in > millimeters. So, in the chart at the bottom of the page, a 16-inch strand > of 6mm round beads is $17 retail. (And that's a good price.) thanks. you can tell I don't buy beads much. ;-) I didn't think one bead could possibly be 16" long! > > IME, a 16-inch strand of 4mm beads will have about 100 beads on it. A > strand of 6mm beads will have about 68 beads. A strand of 8mm beads will > have about 50 beads. This all varies slightly depending on the actual size > of the beads in that particular lot. > > Here's the page for the jet beads on the site I mentioned before; they > specify that their jet is coal-based. I've been happy with their service, > and the owner, Rowan, is very responsive to questions. The selection of > shapes is not as broad as the site above, but there are a few more shapes, > and the prices are lower: > > http://beadsales.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=B&Category_Code=jet > great! I'll send both links to my friend, she'll be very happy. Thanks, all! -Judy Mitchell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 11:19:34 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VFJYRM026483 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:19:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VFItYF024711 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:18:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VFInfT033688; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:18:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VFIlfT033605 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:18:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m173.in-tch.com [216.166.191.173]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i6VFITY07036 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:18:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <410BB943.2070001@in-tch.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:22:43 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) References: <200407302321.34614.cathy@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <200407302321.34614.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Mmmmm....so would you (personally) be more likely to go with the appropriate fiber in a non-appropriate weave, or the period weave but unperiod fiber? (I waffle on this one myself) --sue Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > On Friday 30 July 2004 2:56 am, Lauren Walker wrote: > >>Of course, just to dampen the blanket, there is much whingeing that modern >>hemp fabric does not in any way approximate historic hemp, too, being >>processed to make it softer than was possible. But I always think with the >>bast fibers that we forget how long they lasted -- and were re-used. Maybe >>NEW hemp is much softer than medieval NEW hemp, but as hemp that had been >>worn for a couple of years? I think it would pass, depending on the >>pickiness of your standards. > > > Strictly speaking, my standards would require *wool* diamond twill, but that's > even harder to find and more expensive. :-) > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 11:37:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VFbPRM026571 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:37:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VFahYF025699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:36:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VFaffT042852; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:36:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.180]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i6VFacfT042828 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:36:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.justinanimator.com) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@69.149.32.132 with login) by smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 2004 15:36:37 -0000 Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040731103414.020af098@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Sender: maggie.gene@mail.justinanimator.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.0.6 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:37:28 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett Subject: Re: [h-cost] Interesting finds In-Reply-To: References: <016001c4751b$70d39de0$cb6afea9@sherry> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO A robin on my front step spoke in the voice of Bice, and said: >Someplace I read of a myth that side saddle first off was a late Victorian >thing and that the only time we hear of it medieval was with Adelicia who >married that Henry who never smiled again. When was she? Some version of the side saddle existed in 1410 France because the Limbourg brothers painted it in the Duc du Berry's book of hours. May and August both have women on side saddles, and you can tell that they are not regular saddles, because they have more support, like the crupper under the tail, than the men's saddles have. I really want to make one of these set-ups...as soon as I have a horse again. Genie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 12:04:01 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VG40RM026676 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:04:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VG3IYF027697 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:03:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VG3AfT057003; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:03:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VG38fT056978 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:03:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BqwKA-0001uC-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:03:06 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Interesting finds-side saddle Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 09:03:12 -0700 Message-ID: <003401c47717$e1d01480$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20040731103414.020af098@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There are a couple of folks out there who have done this: http://ilaria.veltri.tripod.com/sidesaddle.html Danielle also has a very cool snapshot of what is supposed to be Queen Elizabeth's saddle. It looks like an astride saddle to me (not that she could not have owned more than one). _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 12:09:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VG9DRM026707 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:09:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VG8fYF028233 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:08:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VG8efT059985; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:08:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m25.mx.aol.com (imo-m25.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.6]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VG8afT059905 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 10:08:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Theflamingneedle@aol.com) Received: from Theflamingneedle@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.dc.109ddb31 (25098) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:08:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Theflamingneedle@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:08:27 EDT To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5032 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] The Village (sorta OT, sorry, but there IS a costuming connection) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I just wanted to kind of clarify what I said last night. I was really ticked and a little tired when I posted my PSA. I understand that people have very different taste in movies, so what I hated, others may love. The reason I posted about it is because the marketing for this movie has been absolutely AMAZINGLY effective; it was sold out all over the place here last night. But what you're expecting out of it is NOT what you get. If movies were held to the same truth-in-advertising standards as less subjective products are, we'd have ourselves one hell of a class action lawsuit here. I've seen clubs of horror movie fans making plans to get together and go see it, and folks, I'm here to tell you: this is not a horror/suspense/thriller movie. Not by a long, long, long, LONG shot. It's barely even a raise-your-eyebrows-in-mild-surprise movie. Basically, it's a social commentary on the inherent evils in any society populated with men, wrapped around a banal love story and seasoned with melodramatic lighting and score. Several people have written off list to ask about the movie, and for those who don't mind spoilers, I'm happy to answer more specific questions off list so that the majority don't end up with too much information. Without revealing too much, here's my more in depth review: I started off as a huge Shyamalan fan. I absolutely adored "Sixth Sense" and still do; I think it was a work of genius as filmmaking goes. However, "Unbreakable" and "Signs" made me start to wonder if the guy had been hit on the head with some large object and it had dislodged his common sense and/or humility mechanisms, because he seemed to be turning into a victim of his own ego. At faire we call this kind of thing masturbatory theater (sorry for the crudeness, but it's true); where you make theater/films solely for your own amusement and to please yourself, with no particular concern for the audience's enjoyment. I have been looking forward to "The Village" for months, SO excited to see it and sure I would love it, so I went into this with a thoroughly open mind. I thought, surely THIS is the film where Shyamalan will prove that "Sixth Sense" was not a fluke; that he really is good. I was WRONG. The official reviews have covered the fact that there is a twist in this movie, so it's not a spoiler for me to say this: In "Sixth Sense," the twist was only the cherry on top of what was (even without any twist) an excellent movie. And I only know one person who claims to have figured out the twist in "Sixth Sense" before it happened. I certainly didn't. You'd have to be asleep or dead not to see the twist coming in this one. Especially - and this is as much information as I'll reveal, honest - if you're a costuming enthusiast, as we all are on this group. You'll spend the first thirty minutes or so flailing about in your head, trying to figure out exactly how much crack the costume designer was smoking. Then the explanation for the incoherence will suddenly fall into place in your mind and you'll want to smack someone. In fact I can't wait until we're past the time where it can be considered a spoiler to discuss it here, because I'm avidly curious to see what others on the group thought of the costuming. On the upside, the costume *quality* is excellent (if a little distracting), the scenery/sets are engrossing, and the acting really is superb. If they had picked one out of the many themes/points/genres in the film and stuck with it and really developed it out, they would have definitely had something original and fascinating. As it is, they tried to go down five different avenues at once and ended up with a mess. In any case, some of the reviews have been good, so apparently there are people who saw a different movie than I did (take that any way you want, LOL). I came out of it wanting to demand my money and the 2 hours of my life back. Basically, I would say that if you enjoyed "Unbreakable" and "Signs," then you will probably like this movie. If you're looking for the suspense, plot and character development, shocker ending and fulfillment of "Sixth Sense," you will be sorely disappointed. **Tiff** "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 13:52:57 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VHquRM027363 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:52:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VHq2YF007035 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:52:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VHptfT015531; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:51:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VHprfT015520 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:51:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cahuff@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lci59.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.72.169] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bqy1K-0004yk-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:51:47 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200407311609.i6VG8pfV060087@net.indra.com> References: <200407311609.i6VG8pfV060087@net.indra.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:51:35 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: fastusminimus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: The Village X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:09 AM -0600 7/31/04, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: >If you're planning to go see "The Village," DON'T. > >I won't say more specifically because I don't want to be a spoiler for those >who ignore this warning and go anyways, but you will wish you'd listened to So on the air conditioning is needed scale and matinee pricing...is it worthy? How are the costumes? (see on topic) Ta Carol, who will have to see it -- filmed locally with friends and friends of friends in it...I'll be the one applauding at weird moments in the credits ... -- Creative Clutter is Better Than Idle Neatness! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 13:59:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VHxARM027378 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:59:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VHwdYF007967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:58:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VHwdfT019507; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:58:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VHwbfT019409 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:58:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hbgd103@soton.ac.uk) Received: from modem-2705.bonobo.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.58.145] helo=soton.ac.uk) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1Bqy7j-0003Km-Uw for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:58:24 +0100 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:03:26 +0100 Subject: Re: [h-cost] So wrong it's right Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) From: Hilary Davidson To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <007501c476ac$1bf7e5a0$eaf4fea9@glendaii> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO as an Australian in England, this post made my day. Thank you. On Saturday, July 31, 2004, at 04:11 am, Glenda Robinson wrote: > My husband goes to his office job with a Black Plague tie. > > It's his favourite tie by far - his boss won't let him wear his Mickey > Mouse > or Hagar the Horrible ties any more - apparently middle managers are > supposed to present a 'sensible image', but the plague is a very nice > pattern, and the boss is none the wiser! > > His brother now wants an anthrax tie to wear to his attorney job in > the US > with a worldwide household chemical/personal care products > manufacturer. > > But then again, us Australians have an ODD sense of humour. > > Glenda. > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> Good cause, creepy products. >> >> I mean, who would want to go to an office job with a tie sporting a TB >> virus?!? >> >> nonononononono..... >> >> Arlys >> > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 14:02:39 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VI2cRM027397 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:02:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VI1wYF008409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:01:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VI1vfT021364; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:01:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VI1tfT021349 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:01:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040731180154.POHH24490.out014.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:01:54 -0500 Message-ID: <002401c47728$76f436d0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: frequent pregnancy and women Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:01:54 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:01:53 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't debate that at all. But then we still have books, magazines and workshops to help us improve ourselves as women. My how things have changed.:) B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Abel" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: frequent pregnancy and women > If women were mostly meek, mild, chattels, there would have been no need, > especially in the first two centuries of the printing press, for all the > books(written mostly by men)for all the books preaching for women to be > meek, mild, silent, chaste, pure, patient, modest(and modestly-dressed), > chattels. And all the sermons by most religious organizations preaching the > same. Would have been a waste of paper, time, and printer's ink--well, not > that it was, anyway. But all those "Advice to Women" books certainly sold. > And since men held the purse-strings legally at least, guess who probably > bought most of those books. > > Cindy Abel > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 14:15:44 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VIFiRM027749 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:15:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VIDdYF009852 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:13:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VIDbfT027842; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:13:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m22.mx.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.3]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VIDafT027783 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:13:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Appin1@aol.com) Received: from Appin1@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id 6.79.2fbb45da (4262) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:13:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Appin1@aol.com Message-ID: <79.2fbb45da.2e3d3b43@aol.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:13:23 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] So wrong it's right To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5000 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I sent the URL to a friend of mine. Her brother is a surgeon. She thought the ties were wonderful, so she is going to get her brother one of the ties, probably the anthrax one. The designs are very nice, and who would know unless you told them? Kathleen Norvell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 15:20:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VJKERM028013 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:20:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJJYYF015740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:19:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJJVfT063264; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:19:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out011.verizon.net (out011pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.135]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJJRfT063236 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:19:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out011.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040731191927.QYNG14580.out011.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:19:27 -0500 Message-ID: <00f201c47733$4c7a56e0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040731034117.46123.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:19:27 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out011.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:19:26 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cheri" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help > > > About as clear as mud right? If I'm not clear in any of my directions let me > know and I'll try to explain it differently. > Elizabeth > > You explained it beautifully. I could have never done that. I can show, but not put into words. That is just what I did, except I made my own corset pattern, It turned out well. I had some really thin plywood ** You can use plywood to make corsets, please explain** left over from making one of those Victorian doll houses and I had Brian make me a busk from that. Works beautifully, so I had him make me 3 more. You never know when you'll need four corsets. > > I can't remember the nice lady's name who was asking for the info, but I'm sure she is reading your e-mail and you've helped greatly. > > Anne/Cheri > > > > > Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be > those you know hereafter." > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 15:21:10 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VJLARM028017 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:21:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJKYYF015847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:20:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJKXfT063830; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:20:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out012.verizon.net (out012pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJKVfT063815 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:20:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out012.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040731192030.RDYE22270.out012.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:20:30 -0500 Message-ID: <00fc01c47733$727404e0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:20:31 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out012.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:20:30 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Where can I find the Costume Connection pattern for purchase? B ----- Original Message ----- From: "teawithablackdragon *" To: Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help > > My recommendation for an Early English Tudor gown is Costume Connection > pattern http://www.patternsoftime.com/patterns/Costume_Conn/COS1603W.gif > > This is a very simple pattern that does not require a corset or stays. The > pattern for the bodice pattern is two in pieces and is a close to > Elizabeth's description of the ideal Tudor bodice. > > The pattern adapts is easy to cut, fit, change where you want seams and > closing and work well with other companies sleeve patterns. > > When working in the kitchen I prefer working in a chemise or a tunic. On of > my chemise is made out of green wool and is full length I use what is now > Simplicity 5375. I have also have a blue linen tunic using on of the older > "star wars" lady tunic patterns. Neither is nothing fancy that is no one > has wanted to take my picture when I have them on. But they are easy to > work in. > > Normally I do not help serve feast- I cannot walk and chew gum at the same > time. One of the rare times I did help serve feast, I had on my black and > gray Tudor gown made from the Costume Connections pattern long sleeve and > and over skirt. It was quite an experience. > > I would not recommended making one of the fancier sleeves to work in.. ie > -kitchen, clean up or troll. I have seen to many people destroy beauty > pieces of work moving to fast or getting caught in something. My > recommendations would be to make the sleeves detachable. > > The costume connection pattern does not come with documentation. But you > should not have any problems finding any. > > _________________________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 15:23:33 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VJNWRM028021 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:23:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJLgYF015924 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:21:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJLffT064452; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:21:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out005.verizon.net (out005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.143]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJLcfT064433 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:21:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out005.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040731192137.LLUK3910.out005.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:21:37 -0500 Message-ID: <010201c47733$9a6d7a80$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <19b.27b18291.2e3ca097@aol.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT - a public service announcement Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:21:38 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out005.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:21:37 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey, I liked the Blair Witch Project and BWP2. How does the Village compare to Signs? B ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 12:13 AM Subject: [h-cost] OT - a public service announcement > Okay, normally I would not do this, but I am firmly convinced that it will > affect whether or not I get into heaven if I don't warn as many people as > possible about this. > > If you're planning to go see "The Village," DON'T. > > I won't say more specifically because I don't want to be a spoiler for those > who ignore this warning and go anyways, but you will wish you'd listened to > me. I've been looking forward to this movie for so long and was so excited to > go see it, and ... blech. It ranks right up there with Blair Witch Project > for pointlessness and unearned hype. > > **Tiff** > > "Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 15:28:14 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VJSDRM028042 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:28:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJQRYF016333 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:26:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJQQfT067131; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:26:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJQMfT067104 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:26:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from saragrace@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=SG01) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BqzUr-0004U5-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:26:21 -0700 From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Help Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:26:28 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c47734$46fb3710$6a01a8c0@SG01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00fc01c47733$727404e0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ""Backup"" in the Url or go here: http://www.patternsoftime.com/ >-----Original Message----- >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On >Behalf Of Brandy Deming >Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 12:21 PM >To: Historical Costume >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help > >Where can I find the Costume Connection pattern for purchase? > >B >> >> My recommendation for an Early English Tudor gown is Costume Connection >> pattern http://www.patternsoftime.com/patterns/Costume_Conn/COS1603W.gif _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 15:47:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VJlVRM028207 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:47:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJkrYF018041 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:46:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJkqfT077925; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:46:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VJklfU077866 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:46:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6VJlVVl000899 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:47:32 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:53:19 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <200407302321.34614.cathy@thyrsus.com> <410BB943.2070001@in-tch.com> In-Reply-To: <410BB943.2070001@in-tch.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200407311553.19201.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 31 July 2004 11:22 am, Sue Clemenger wrote: > Mmmmm....so would you (personally) be more likely to go with the > appropriate fiber in a non-appropriate weave, or the period weave but > unperiod fiber? Still waffling myself. :-) Most of my garb to date is in non-appropriate fibers. The project that led me to ask the question will be (if I ever get to it) my first serious attempt at reproducing period style, period construction, and period materials. -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 16:08:20 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VK8JRM028322 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:08:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VK7kYF019624 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:07:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VK7hfT088882; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:07:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VK7efU088847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:07:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-175.sonic.net [209.148.112.175]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i6VK7bR5011476 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:07:38 -0700 Message-ID: <410BFD42.3080808@lavoltapress.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:12:50 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) References: <200407302321.34614.cathy@thyrsus.com> <410BB943.2070001@in-tch.com> <200407311553.19201.cathy@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <200407311553.19201.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It would depend on which is more obvious/visible, the fiber or the weave. Fran >On Saturday 31 July 2004 11:22 am, Sue Clemenger wrote: > > >>Mmmmm....so would you (personally) be more likely to go with the >>appropriate fiber in a non-appropriate weave, or the period weave but >>unperiod fiber? >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 17:20:18 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VLKIRM028612 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:20:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VLIQYF025387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:18:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VLINfT039198; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:18:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net (sccrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.202.55]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VLIKfT039106 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 15:18:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lauren.walker@comcast.net) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (h0006255ec5ea.ne.client2.attbi.com[66.31.43.36]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2004073121181401100t04mve>; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:18:14 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:17:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: hard-to-find fabrics (was Silk Denim) From: Lauren Walker To: Historical Costume Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <410BB943.2070001@in-tch.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Perhaps because my love of historical costuming begins with my love of weaving and fabrics (I like the early medieval clothing cuts the best because they are so much determined by the cloth, but I also see the whole history of fashion as the product of cloth-production technology and international trade) for me, the fiber is a starting point. I'd rather have the right fiber, but I try to stick with plainweaves and twills (which are period-correct almost always) too. Hmm, I guess I mean, "I won't make that choice" don't I? But as one of my friends says, "the more you know, the less you enjoy" -- except of course that knowing is a form of enjoyment, too and obviously the one we prefer ;-). And so I go around accepting weights of fabric and processing of fabric and stuff that really aren't period, either. Plus, I don't spin and can't seem to get the hang of it, so even if one day I am weaving things as close to period as I can make them, the threads will be wrong! I'm anguishing now over a bit of info that seems to indicate most 18th C linsey-woolsey was made with uplied linen and wool. I'm hoping to be rescued by artefacts of commercially-made linsey -- maybe the homespun American stuff was single-ply but the imported English stuff used plied yarns -- because otherwise I have to start over with unplied linen, and honestly, the 2-ply was fussy enough! Anyhow, to go back to the "Silk Denim" that started this thread, I just received 5 yards of "Silk Oxford" from Fashion Fabrics Club, and am in love with it. It's a plain weave (thus the oxford) and about as heavy as the heaviest good Brooks Brothers men's oxford shirt fabric, but silk, so with silk's substantiality and crispness. Not shiny in the least, but, being crosswoven black and olive, it changes coloer with the light as if it were "iridescent" but without being shiny. Sometimes black, sometimes green, sometimes brown, sometimes gold with highlights. I think it's going to be -- like all my favorite fabrics -- a gored 11th-Century gown/tunic. For me this still involves a zillion decisions! But I think that cut shows off a fabric better than anything else. BUT I suppose it is not really period at ALL. Unless it is... Lauren, suffering from the need for more iced coffee Lauren > From: Sue Clemenger > > Mmmmm....so would you (personally) be more likely to go with the > appropriate fiber in a non-appropriate weave, or the period weave but > unperiod fiber? > (I waffle on this one myself) > --sue > > Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: >> On Friday 30 July 2004 2:56 am, Lauren Walker wrote: >> >>> Of course, just to dampen the blanket, there is much whingeing that modern >>> hemp fabric does not in any way approximate historic hemp, too, being >>> processed to make it softer than was possible. But I always think with the >>> bast fibers that we forget how long they lasted -- and were re-used. Maybe >>> NEW hemp is much softer than medieval NEW hemp, but as hemp that had been >>> worn for a couple of years? I think it would pass, depending on the >>> pickiness of your standards. >> >> >> Strictly speaking, my standards would require *wool* diamond twill, but >> that's >> even harder to find and more expensive. :-) >> >> > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 18:02:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i6VM2tRM028794 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 18:02:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VKtNYF023434 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:55:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VKtDfT021882; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:55:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay1-dav8.bay1.hotmail.com [65.54.244.112]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i6VKtBfT021733 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 14:55:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 13:41:39 -0700 Received: from 166.102.108.80 by bay1-dav8.bay1.hotmail.com with DAV; Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:44:55 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [166.102.108.80] X-Originating-Email: [wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com] X-Sender: wantstobecorsetted1@hotmail.com From: "Bice" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:43:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2004 20:41:39.0621 (UTC) FILETIME=[C7C10550:01C4773E] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Because of the no birth control and the women were property thing as mentioned and a fertile woman was a wanted woman. So yes a young pretty woman would have wanted to "look" knocked up. Even if she was married. And not to mention the things we do in the name of fashion. Corsets, inside out jeans, bleached hair, lolita, shall I go on? eBay V.C. Andrews Books!! Glove Making Book http://snipurl.com/74k1 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Carlson" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:14 PM Subject: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy > >From: Cheri > >From: Cheri > >>There's a certain roundness of the belly in the late Gothic style true, > >>but > >>if anything it's that "you look like you *could* bear children." Not that > >>they were pregnant. > >And why would a married woman want to "look like she *could* bare > >children"? > >Seems to me that would be single young girls attracting a husband. > > Because it's the style? How many modern married women can you think of > today who like to dress attractively? > > >A married woman would be pregnant most of her life. > > Mmm, interesting supposition, is there evidence to support it as a > universal? > > Marc > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 21:33:26 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i711XQRM029894 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:33:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i711VUYF015262 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:31:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i711VHfT006173; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:31:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i711VEfT006050 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:31:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.145.97]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i711V0Bk002981 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:31:00 +1000 Message-ID: <00cf01c47767$2474fcc0$6191d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <01a901c474f7$187213d0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:30:28 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I would like the sleeves to be puffy, cuffed and split, so I can cook and funtion without them getting caught on things. > I can try to elaborate, but please be kind, it is my first season :) > > B OK now I've had a look at the pictures I've got a slightly better idea of what you want, but I'm not sure what you mean when you describe the sleeves, do you mean something like the undersleeves in Princess Elizabeth's portrait? or something more Italian like this http://www.tudor-portraits.com/ElenoraToledo1.jpg with puffs of chemise showing through? The bodice is essentially the same as if you're making a Tudor gown but the skirt will probably be more full if you're going for an Italian look. If you do want to create a complete Tudor appearance I'd suggest a decade or two earlier than Princess Elizabeth's portrait for your first attempt (as the really big sleeves and long front point are a little hard to deal with if you don't have a lot of sewing experience) something like this http://www.tudor-portraits.com/UnknownLady5.jpg or Jane Seymour's dress http://www.tudor-portraits.com/JaneSeymour.jpg is a bit easier. Once the turnback is secured (I use 3 hooks & eyes per sleeve) the hanging part of your sleeve will hang about level with your elbow and probably won't get caught on much (you can also wrap the dangling bit around your arm, pin it there while you work and let it down when you want to look pretty), but if you're cooking you may not want to risk it and decide to go with straight sleeves. Does that help? Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 21:44:16 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i711iGRM029965 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:44:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i711heYF016138 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:43:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i711hcfT012059; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:43:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.austarmetro.com.au (root@smtp-01.sys.bigblue.net.au [203.166.224.2]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i711hXfT012022 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:43:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@austarmetro.com.au) Received: from ewalpole ([203.214.145.97]) by smtp.austarmetro.com.au (8.12.11/SQL-8.12.11-5/8.12.11) with SMTP id i711hVns003697 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:43:31 +1000 Message-ID: <00f601c47768$e3fc8da0$6191d6cb@ewalpole> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040731034117.46123.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> <00f201c47733$4c7a56e0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:43:03 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > ** You can use plywood to make corsets, please explain** Anne was discussing how she used plywood for the busk in the corset for an explanation of what a busk is look at http://costume.dm.net/corsets/materials.html#busks you still use fabric for most of the corset and other boning around the rest of the corset but you put a piece of wood (or in this case plywood) in the centre front to keep it really stiff. Elizabeth ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia ewalpole@austar.net.au _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 22:33:11 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i712XARM030231 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:33:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i712WUYF019423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:32:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i712WQfT035091; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:32:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f24.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.74]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i712WOfT035034 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:32:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:32:18 -0700 Received: from 129.244.96.85 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 01 Aug 2004 02:32:18 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.96.85] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:32:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2004 02:32:18.0780 (UTC) FILETIME=[C411E9C0:01C4776F] X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE: History and Pregnancy X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: "Elizabeth Walpole" >Not to mention husbands who may have travelled and couples who strictly >followed the Church's policy on times of the year at which sex was banned >(e.g. Sundays, Fridays, Lent, while the woman is menstruating...). Absolutely. Also that pecky little thing about even fertile couples not being 100% fertile, especially when dealing with iffy nutrition. >The statement that 'women belonged to men' seems to imply that women could >never refuse sex with their husbands. While it is true that sex without >consent was not (to my knowledge) illegal within the confines of a >marriage, >simply because a woman does not have a legal right to refuse to have sex >with her husband doesn't mean he necessarily ignored it when she said no. >That legal right possibly reflected social norms that said 'you should be >having sex with your husband and reproducing' meaning that a refusal may >not >necessarily be a common occurrence, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen >at all. I will say, speaking as a modern male, but a male nevertheless, that if I had the right to force sex on my wife, I'm pretty sure that exercising that right, even occasionally, would really interfere with long term marital peace and quiet. Again, I'm sure it happened, but I'm not sure it was that common. Of course this then moves into that discussion about whether a slave actually was able to freely say yes or not, and other topics too far removed from the topic of this list, so I'm going to step out of this. Marc _________________________________________________________________ Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 22:55:15 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i712tFRM030428 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:55:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i712sdYF020710 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:54:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i712sbfT045514; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:54:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51103.mail.yahoo.com (web51103.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.145]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i712sWfT045423 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:54:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticcheri@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20040801025426.77754.qmail@web51103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.29.246.144] by web51103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:54:26 PDT Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 19:54:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheri Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <00f201c47733$4c7a56e0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.3 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Busk. I made a busk out of plywood. Really thin, about an eighth of an inch. ** You can use plywood to make corsets, please explain** left over from making one of those Victorian doll houses and I had Brian make me a busk from that. Works beautifully, so I had him make me 3 more. You never know when you'll need four corsets. > > > Anne/Cheri > > > > > Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be > those you know hereafter." > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be those you know hereafter." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 23:29:25 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i713TORM030690 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:29:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713SmYF023100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:28:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713SkfT062983; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:28:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.196]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713ShfT062955 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:28:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jacquelinejbump@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 77so116002rnk for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.78.51 with SMTP id a51mr614323rnb; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4c5accc804073120281f44e705@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:28:42 -0400 From: Bice To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] OT-Ad for a floor loom X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://snipurl.com/85gz Floor Loom!! Harrisville Designs 4 Harness 6 Pedal Our most popular loom... the Model T/6 has a full 36" weaving width, floating lamm system and quick multiple tie-up system using "snap chains". The 4 harness, 6 treadle combination make the Model T/6 both convenient and versatile. Complex treadling patterns are simple to set up and easy to weave. It has a friction brake for excellent tension control and an adjustable beater to accommodate reeds of different heights and widths. The suspended harnesses make the jack-action light, quiet, smooth and rhythmical - the way it should be. Expertly crafted using the finest hardwood and designed with the same economy, portability, and durability as the Model A/6, it is as much loom as most people will ever need, and remains one of the best values on the loom market today. Look at our quality and compare it in price with most 22" or 24" looms and you'll see what we mean! That's the blurb from the Harrisville Page: http://www.harrisville.com/html/t6.html Mine is this. I inherited this loom. I never used it. It's sat around for about 6 years because I can't use a floor loom. (classes are over a grand here) Well about a month back my husband of 11 months decided to walk out the door leaving my 12 year old son and I on our own. So I decided to make sure to have extra income and pay off our bills. I'm selling what is essentially a paperweight in this place. There's a really high reserve on this item because of a few reasons. One is that new this loom sells new for over $1400 assembled. This one is all put together and as far as I know it's all here. I've taken a number of pictures and can take more on requests. I freely admit to knowing nothing about looms so this loom is sold AS IS. HOWEVER I have looked this loom over VERY carefully and the only thing I noticed is that the area where the threads go needs cleaning with a wire brush from sitting so long(not the ones in the harness). (I can send a pic if desired) There are no breaks in the ropes as far as I can see. The wood is all solid. I have some papers that go with the loom as well. And as I continue to find things in boxes (we moved in this place in September and believe it or not I have packed boxes still) I will mail them to the buyer) I will NOT lower the reserve. I'd rather it took up the room. This loom is worth the price. Shipping is $150.00 (at this time that's my estimate anyhow) I will take the loom apart as much as possible without making it a pain to put back together. Shipping is UPS ONLY. No P.O. Boxes or overseas. Insurance is REQUIRED. Bice _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 23:33:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i713X9RM030743 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:33:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713VKYF023289 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:31:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713VJfT064396; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:31:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out014.verizon.net (out014pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.46]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713VFfT064376 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:31:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out014.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040801033115.SNZS24490.out014.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:31:15 -0500 Message-ID: <016101c47778$00620060$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040801025426.77754.qmail@web51103.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:31:14 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out014.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:31:14 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Boy do I feel unintelligent... to keep up the trend: what's a busk? B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cheri" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help > > Busk. I made a busk out of plywood. Really thin, about an eighth of an inch. > > > ** You can use plywood to make corsets, please explain** > > left over from making one of those Victorian doll houses and I had Brian > make me a busk from that. Works beautifully, so I had him make me 3 more. > You never know when you'll need four corsets. > > > > > > Anne/Cheri > > > > > > > > > > Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be > > those you know hereafter." > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > > Go softly and gently for those you meet here will be > those you know hereafter." > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 23:41:24 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i713fNRM030825 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:41:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713dWYF023775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:39:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713dTfT068618; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:39:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.192]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713dKfT068555 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:39:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jacquelinejbump@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 78so151034rnl for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.12.77 with SMTP id 77mr277001rnl; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4c5accc804073120392987962@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:39:17 -0400 From: Bice To: h-costume@indra.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Button question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ok late era folks I have a question. I'm getting ready to list this button on eBay. I pulled it out of pile of effluvia bought at a recent auction and knew with that gut instinct we all get that it was a great button but I'm still not sure why. I took some pictures of it but because of the size they aren't the best. It looks two be two piece but I have my doubts that it is. It is stamped on the back A.P. & Co. PARIS SOLIDAIRE Bte S.G.D.G. The front is carved with what looks to be a dragon fly. I've found a few examples from the company on the web but nothing about the company itself or anything on how to price this thing etc etc... From the design I'd say 1890's start of the art movement in Paris. I'd hate to price it too low but I'd also hate to price it so high to not give it a new home. Anyone got any thoughts?? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/jacqueline13126/button3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/jacqueline13126/button2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/jacqueline13126/button1.jpg B. eBay Floor Loom!! Harrisville Designs 4 Harness 6 Pedal http://snipurl.com/74k1 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 23:42:29 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i713gSRM030838 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:42:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713eiYF023858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:40:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713ehfT069270; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:40:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.199]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713edfT069250 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:40:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jacquelinejbump@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 77so116193rnk for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.78.51 with SMTP id a51mr616130rnb; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4c5accc804073120401f464ef5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:40:37 -0400 From: Bice To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help In-Reply-To: <016101c47778$00620060$547c0f04@brandyscomp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <20040801025426.77754.qmail@web51103.mail.yahoo.com> <016101c47778$00620060$547c0f04@brandyscomp> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It's the front part. Sometimes it's curved like a spoon sometimes it's in two parts and clips together sometimes it's one piece and the corset is laced in back. eBay Floor Loom!! Harrisville Designs 4 Harness 6 Pedal http://snipurl.com/74k1 On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:31:14 -0700, Brandy Deming wrote: > Boy do I feel unintelligent... to keep up the trend: what's a busk? > > B-- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 23:46:23 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i713kNRM030860 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:46:23 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713jlYF024247 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:45:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713jkfT071813; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:45:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from out004.verizon.net (out004pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.142]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713jffT071755 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:45:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from queenscorner@verizon.net) Received: from brandyscomp ([4.15.124.84]) by out004.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.06 201-253-122-130-106-20030910) with ESMTP id <20040801034540.PLHN28868.out004.verizon.net@brandyscomp> for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:45:40 -0500 Message-ID: <019501c4777a$03f8a9c0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> From: "Brandy Deming" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000201c47734$46fb3710$6a01a8c0@SG01> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:45:40 -0700 Organization: Better Times for Small Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out004.verizon.net from [4.15.124.84] at Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:45:39 -0500 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO thank you B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saragrace T. Knauf" To: "'Historical Costume'" Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 12:26 PM Subject: RE: [h-cost] Help > ""Backup"" in the Url or go here: http://www.patternsoftime.com/ > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On > >Behalf Of Brandy Deming > >Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 12:21 PM > >To: Historical Costume > >Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help > > > >Where can I find the Costume Connection pattern for purchase? > > > >B > >> > >> My recommendation for an Early English Tudor gown is Costume Connection > >> pattern http://www.patternsoftime.com/patterns/Costume_Conn/COS1603W.gif > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Jul 31 23:57:43 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i713vgRM030960 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:57:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713uwYF024850 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:56:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713uufT077375; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:56:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i713urfU077339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:56:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i713veLn021787 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:57:40 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Help Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:03:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: <00fc01c47733$727404e0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> In-Reply-To: <00fc01c47733$727404e0$547c0f04@brandyscomp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200408010003.27731.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Saturday 31 July 2004 3:20 pm, Brandy Deming wrote: [not sure who said this (don't think it was Brandy) but I wanted to reply]: > > I would not recommended making one of the fancier sleeves to work in.. > > ie -kitchen, clean up or troll. I have seen to many people destroy beauty > > pieces of work moving to fast or getting caught in something. My > > recommendations would be to make the sleeves detachable. My recommendation would be to make something a lower class woman would wear, and make it washable. This site contains information about the outfit made by one woman who does 16th c reenactment at Kentwell Hall. http://freespace.virgin.net/f.lea/index.htm -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Aug 1 00:23:12 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i714NCRM031091 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:23:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i714MbYF026548 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:22:37 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i714MYfT090724; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:22:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i714MVfU090700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:22:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i714NIJe022826 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:23:19 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Charmeuse alternative was Just a minor rant. Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:29:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.6.2 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200408010029.06665.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on grelber.thyrsus.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Friday 30 July 2004 1:19 pm, Katy Bishop wrote: > As an alternative to silk charmeuse I like Oriental silk's "Kwong Chow > Silk Satin". It is very lightweight, has a great sheen, but doesn't > have the slipperyness of charmeuse. It is a dream to sew with. > > Check out www.orientalsilks.com (though they don't show all the colors > on the website) I tried looking for that website just now, but what I reached wasn't a fabric business; it was a "this domain name was recently bought" kind of placeholder page. Looks like they got their domain bought out from under them. :-( -- Cathy Raymond "Success is not final, failure is not fatal; it is the courage to continue that counts."--Winston Churchill _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Aug 1 00:48:13 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i714mCRM031158 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:48:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i714lZYF028544 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:47:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i714lSfT005200; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:47:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i714lNfU005160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:47:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-115-17.sonic.net [209.148.115.17]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i714lKm8008989 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:47:21 -0700 Message-ID: <410C7710.5020706@lavoltapress.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:52:32 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Ad for a floor loom References: <4c5accc804073120281f44e705@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4c5accc804073120281f44e705@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Mine is this. I inherited this loom. I never used it. It's sat around >for about 6 years because I can't use a floor loom. (classes are over >a grand here) > I understand, as I've had a floor loom in the garage for over twelve years. I hadn't been weaving much for awhile, and when we moved there wasn't enough room for it in my sewing room so . . . it'll wait till our next house. I originally learned to weave in college art classes, so the price was bundled into my regular tuition. At the time it was also possible to take classes virtually free in community colleges and community recreation centers. I don't know it that's still true, but a grand seems too steep to me. Although skill is certainly involved in weaving, it's mostly manual practice rather than inherent complexity. They didn't do much in my classes except teach some basic concepts, provide looms, and turn us loose. It is handy to have someone to help wind the warp onto the loom. But any nonweaver can do that, it's just a matter of holding the threads. There are a lot of good books with weaving patterns you can follow. >One is that >new this loom sells new for over $1400 assembled. This one is all put >together and as far as I know it's all here. I've taken a number of >pictures and can take more on requests. I freely admit to knowing >nothing about looms so this loom is sold AS IS. > It is probably fine. Floor looms don't break easily. Students had been using the looms in my college continuously for years without significantly damaging them. >HOWEVER I have looked >this loom over VERY carefully and the only thing I noticed is that the >area where the threads go needs cleaning with a wire brush from >sitting so long(not the ones in the harness). > The comblike thing is called a reed. The things with eyes in the middle (which may be either metal or string) are called heddles. To avoid getting rust on the warp threads, you need to clean a rusty reed and heddles with the rust-removal products found in hardware stores. It's time consuming and fiddly, but the rust can be removed. >I will NOT lower the reserve. I'd rather it took up the room. This >loom is worth the price. Shipping is $150.00 (at this time that's my >estimate anyhow) I will take the loom apart as much as possible >without making it a pain to put back together. > > I found out when I got mine that looms are a royal pain (and expense) to ship. There were quite a few used ones available locally. Many people tried weaving, gave it up, discovered their looms took up space, and sold them in almost new condition for much less than they originally paid. I saw their ads up on bulletin boards at places that sold yarn and/or gave weaving classes. I probably should have bought one of those. But since my parents were willing to buy me a brand-new loom, I went for it. It cost about $200 to ship from the manufacturer (this was some years ago). The only thing the manufacturer could take off for shipping was the back beam. That divided the shipment into two pieces; but since the main part of the loom was still very large and heavy, it didn't help much. The carrier who delivered the loom left it at the bottom of the stairs (the main part of the house was on the second floor, as is common in this area). He said no one had told him stairs were part of the delivery. Stairs had to be mentioned in advance. Stairs cost extra. I said, fine, I'll pay for the stairs, I'll write a check now, just carry the loom up. The carrier said it was much too heavy for him to handle on his own, he was driving alone that day, and he was sure I couldn't carry half of it. He was right. The damn thing sat at the bottom of the stairs for a couple of days. My husband and I finally pled for help from a highly muscular semiprofessional athlete we barely knew, but who we hoped would regard it as useful training. Fran Books on historic costuming Two new books on 1870s and 1880s clothing! http://www.lavoltapress.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Aug 1 01:11:35 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i715BZRM031251 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 01:11:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715B1YF000595 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:11:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715AxfT019107; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:10:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715AufU019087 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:10:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i7158CtY014521 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 01:08:12 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 01 Aug 2004 01:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <410C7B5F.8010301@thibault.org> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 01:10:55 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Web hints: Charmeuse alternative was Just a minor rant. References: <200408010029.06665.cathy@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <200408010029.06665.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: >>Check out www.orientalsilks.com (though they don't show all the colors >>on the website) > I tried looking for that website just now, but what I reached wasn't a fabric > business; it was a "this domain name was recently bought" kind of placeholder > page. Looks like they got their domain bought out from under them. Not always. In fact, most of these that I've run into are usually someone misremembering the URL. Differences in .org, .net, .com and such, plus minor spelling mistakes or, in this case, plurals not being real. The domain http://www.orientalsilk.com/ appears to be what you're looking for. How to find this sort of thing out: if you get a domain-name placeholder type page, or an outright error, go to Google or your favorite search engine and search for what you're looking for. In this case, I typed in 'Oriental Silks' and it came up, first thing. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pré Argent We're on the way to Wiggle Bay And our brains, are draining out our ears. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Aug 1 01:17:56 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i715HtRM031281 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 01:17:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715G6YF000965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:16:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715G5fT021718; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:16:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.201]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715G2fT021699 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:16:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jacquelinejbump@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 77so117551rnk for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.78.51 with SMTP id a51mr630487rnb; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4c5accc8040731221654c9eeec@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 01:16:01 -0400 From: Bice To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Ad for a floor loom In-Reply-To: <410C7710.5020706@lavoltapress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4c5accc804073120281f44e705@mail.gmail.com> <410C7710.5020706@lavoltapress.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well I had the books for as long as I had the loom and it got to where it was no longer worth it to keep it. I wasn't learning and it seemed assinine to keep everything when I simply am not the type to learn that sort of thing out of a book. Patterns yes. Weaving no. I have to have in front of me. I went down to the local weaving place, luckily this is a college town so we have all sorts of funky places like that, and my jaw simply dropped when he told me it was over a grand for his class. I just turned around and put the loom on ebay. I got the shipping estimate from UPS already and it's been weighed etc so we are pretty sure that's right and for all it's size it's not that heavy. It's more bulky than anything else. And it's already up to $300 so I'm *hoping* it's going to make the reserve. Given that this is the first day of the sale and it has ten days I'm hopeful. I'm actually fairly talented with a lap loom or table loom so it's not like I'll really miss this one anyhow. I'd rather it went to a loving home. But I have to pay off bills and buy schools things for this guy right here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/jacqueline13126/tar_tree.jpg I think he's worth it *g* B. eBay Floor Loom!! Harrisville Designs 4 Harness 6 Pedal http://snipurl.com/74k1 On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:52:32 -0700, Lavolta Press wrote: > I understand, as I've had a floor loom in the garage for over twelve > years. I hadn't been weaving much for awhile, and when we moved there > wasn't enough room for it in my sewing room so . . . it'll wait till our > next house. I originally learned to weave in college art classes, so > the price was bundled into my regular tuition. At the time it was also > possible to take classes virtually free in community colleges and > community recreation centers. I don't know it that's still true, but a > grand seems too steep to me. Although skill is certainly involved in > weaving, it's mostly manual practice rather than inherent complexity. > They didn't do much in my classes except teach some basic concepts, > provide looms, and turn us loose. It is handy to have someone to help > wind the warp onto the loom. But any nonweaver can do that, it's just a > matter of holding the threads. There are a lot of good books with > weaving patterns you can follow. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Aug 1 01:22:31 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i715MURM031306 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 01:22:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715M0YF001344 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:22:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715LxfT024594; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:21:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715LsfU024549 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:21:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-112-169.sonic.net [209.148.112.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i715Lqh5032614 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:21:52 -0700 Message-ID: <410C7F28.9030400@lavoltapress.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:27:04 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Ad for a floor loom References: <4c5accc804073120281f44e705@mail.gmail.com> <410C7710.5020706@lavoltapress.com> <4c5accc8040731221654c9eeec@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4c5accc8040731221654c9eeec@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm not blaming you for selling it, just because I'm not selling mine. Actually what I want to do, when we buy a bigger house with a bigger studio for me, is get an embroidery machine too. Fran Bice wrote: >Well I had the books for as long as I had the loom and it got to where >it was no longer worth it to keep it. I wasn't learning and it seemed >assinine to keep everything when I simply am not the type to learn >that sort of thing out of a book. Patterns yes. Weaving no. > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Aug 1 01:32:17 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i715WGRM031349 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 01:32:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715PNYF001585 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:25:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715PNfT026350; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:25:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.198]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i715PJfT026325 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:25:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jacquelinejbump@gmail.com) Received: by mproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 79so77629rnk for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.38.82.68 with SMTP id f68mr116097rnb; Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4c5accc8040731222544e926@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 01:25:14 -0400 From: Bice To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] OT-Ad for a floor loom In-Reply-To: <410C7F28.9030400@lavoltapress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit References: <4c5accc804073120281f44e705@mail.gmail.com> <410C7710.5020706@lavoltapress.com> <4c5accc8040731221654c9eeec@mail.gmail.com> <410C7F28.9030400@lavoltapress.com> X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO No I didn't think you were at all. Just I know most weavers are flinching at the idea I'd sell it. Because it's supposed to be one of the better ones they can't fathom getting rid of it I guess. To me it's an albatross. But at the same time it's an albatross that can supply Tarquin with some very much needed items. eBay Floor Loom!! Harrisville Designs 4 Harness 6 Pedal http://snipurl.com/74k1 On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:27:04 -0700, Lavolta Press wrote: > I'm not blaming you for selling it, just because I'm not selling mine. > Actually what I want to do, when we buy a bigger house with a bigger > studio for me, is get an embroidery machine too. > > Fran _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Aug 1 02:07:09 2004 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i71678RM031514 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 02:07:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7165CYF003968 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:05:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i71657fT045833; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:05:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc13.comcast.net (sccrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.202.64]) by net.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i71655fT045767 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 00:05:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from someone@eskimo.com) Received: from bently (c-24-19-168-204.client.comcast.net[24.19.168.204]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2004080106045901600i0a4re>; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 06:04:59 +0000 Message-ID: <00d901c476c5$6ca36920$2a02a8c0@Belkin> From: "Pam and David" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20040731005003.74574.qmail@web51105.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] I love a kilt Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:12:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.75, clamav-milter version 0.75 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I love a man in a kilt. I do have quite a lovely pic if anyone is interested of a young man in a kilt with a breeze blowing. Just let me know. > I could look at such a thing...... Pam Dotson Everett, WA _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume